rosalita9054@my-deja.com wrote:

> I for one will continue to spread the news:
Here is some help from you. Here is DENNIS ERLICH, a man who is a father to four children, and held a the position of chief cramming officer at FLAG, trained in all things Hubbardian and $cientological, speaking about what it is like for children in $cientology.

DENNIS ERLICH is a very credible authority on $cientology.

DENNIS ERLICH was also held prisoner against his will under armed Co$ guard in the basement of the Ft. Harrison Hotel, but fortuantely lived, unlike one of the people listed below who died down in the basement of the Ft. Harrison Hotel [second picture from the bottom] that Co$ tried to say didn't exist:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~bogie/dunkle_seite/ard09.html Anyway, here is a commentary from DENNIS ERLICH regarding Co$ and children.

http://wpxx02.toxi.uni-wuerzburg.de/~krasel/CoS/aff/aff_de1.html Scientology is child abuse by Dennis Erlich Early in the '60s, I remember seeing a movie that made a profound impression on me. It was one of the "shockumentaries" that was made after the success of the movie Mondo Cane, I believe.

Perhaps some of you recall it. As a documentary about the bizarre practices of various cultures around the world, it was an eye-opener for any middle-class youth, especially one as sheltered in suburbia as I was. I was shocked and utterly fascinated by the diversity of cultures in the world, their differing views of life, and what was considered "normal" in various societies. Children who grow up in cults are cut off from experiencing the wide range of choices the world has to offer.

Sequestered and insulated from the rest of the world, their parents' way of life is the only one to which they are exposed. In the movie there was one segment, however, that was deeply disturbing;

whose images haunt me still. It concerned child slavery going on at that time in Africa.

In that segment of the movie, slavers were shown stealing infant children from their parents. They then put the children in confining cages where they could not stretch out. Or they bound them using shackles to twist their tiny arms and legs into weird, contorted positions.

These children were kept this way for their entire childhood;

allowed to grow to maturity without ever being unbound. Their bodies became twisted into grotesque human pretzels, with joints bent in wrong directions, and calluses on the wrong sides of feet. When grown, these children were sold by the slavers as freaks to side-shows.

I recall thinking that the children seemed totally normal before they were placed in these extreme conditions. That they survived at all is for me a testament to the adaptive power of the human body, mind and spirit.

These images helped form my conceptual model for child abuse. Any set of experiences which bind a child's body, mind or spirit into a warped, contorted posture is abuse. Any activity which causes the child to have to adapt to extreme, unnatural conditions is similarly abusive. This type of prolonged adaptation produces a twisted mental posture which causes the child to be maladaptive in society.

Libertarians may reasonably argue that adults should be allowed to participate in or subject themselves to whatever destructive activity they choose. When it comes to children however, a different standard is universally applied.

Children in our society are, by law, protected from many harmful influences or circumstances to which adults can be subjected or can willingly submit. While adults are allowed to go hungry on our streets or expire from need of medical attention, children are generally protected from such neglect.

The ability to think and the right to speak critically can be lost or knowingly forfeited by an adult and we might say that he is a dedicated, single-minded, devoted or focused follower. But a child, not having had the chance to develop the ability to think for himself, is, in theory, protected from any influence that would take that eventual right away.

In scientology there have been enough verified reports of children being ordered locked in chain lockers on the "flagship" by Hubbard himself or being subjected to the labor camp reform of the RPF, to know that the man hadn't the slightest regard for the welfare of children. Children are housed in squalid conditions, deprived of proper parental supervision, medical care and generally considered excess baggage by the cult's leaders.

The abuse, however, that I would like to address here is what I have personally witnessed:

the mental and spiritual abuse perpetrated upon children raised in the cult environment.

My four children were subjected to the practices of which I speak and, God willing, will some day be free of the destructive influence of scientology on their lives.

In scientology, people are routinely deprived of their rights of free speech and thought, held captive, required to submit to degrading conditions or undergo "rehabilitation" in the RPF program. They are subjected to shunning, sleep deprivation and a concentration camp environment to accomplish the cult's brainwashing reform. These practices are not the worst of what goes on hidden behind the public facade of the cult.

They are also not limited to the control and manipulation of adults.

Many of the most repressive and authoritarian practices are applied equally to defenseless children.

These practices are based on Hubbard's stated philosophy that children are just thetans in little bodies and should be required to contribute as soon as possible to the group's survival.

In a child's life the application of this philosophy translates to deprivation of parental nurturing:

the right to be "just" children. Instead children are deemed "upstat"

or "downstat," have "in-ethics" or "out-ethics," are "on-purpose"

or "off-purpose." They are segregated [even more than their scientology parents] from the normal influences of society. Their concept of themselves in relation to society is molded by Hubbard's own twisted world-view.

They learn they are very different from "wog" kids.

They absorb Hubbard's prejudices against the government, the education system, the mental health community and literally everyone who is not a member of the cult.

They learn the cult's concept of responsibility. If they are critical of scientology or anyone in it, it is because they themselves have committed an anti-social act. They are instilled with the idea that the only worthwhile ambition they can have is to become a "professional"

scientologist and help save the planet.

In the case of my own daughter, this conditioning translated in her young mind to helping scientology stop people from slaughtering baby seals and other similarly naive images. Of course she wanted to help "save the planet." What child wouldn't? So at age 8 she became a Sea Org member. I was, of course, very proud of her. She worked 7 days a week till 10:30 PM at the Clearwater Headquarters.

She was a Cadet until she was 15. It was with the grace of God that she escaped and started building her life back toward, instead of away from society. It took her several years of constant struggle to catch up from the "education" she received while a Cadet in the Sea Org. She is currently receiving counselling to deal with the twisted ideas and unnatural childhood she experienced growing up in the cult. But, nonetheless, she graduated from college this year, CUM LAUDE, and is beginning a new life in the "real world."

Another of my children, who once had a wonderful sense of humor, claims she lost her ability to laugh when she did the communication course as a six year old. The bullbaiting in the training drills tampered with her spontaneity and caused her to arrest her natural urge to react to things.

As a result she now tends to be placid, self-conscious, detached and objective. Once that spontaneity was disturbed by the unnatural, hypnotic discipline of TRs, she tended to be un-reacting. I have known many adults in my cult career who displayed this fixed, robotic, un-reacting countenance, but in the case of my child, it produced a severe, dramatic, destructive change in her personality which has not been reversed.

Like her sister, she had a difficult time trying to adapt in "wog"

schools, to the children and the need to catch up academically.

After several years of constant effort, she managed to come up to speed with those she had previously considered her inferiors -- the "wogs."

Another of my children, who rebelled against the notion of scientology indoctrination, constantly felt like the outsider in the family. Because she didn't aspire to the same goals as the cult demanded, she was considered "out-ethics." This stigma, caused by her unwillingness to give up her natural tendency to question and be critical, created in her the self image of being inadequate and flawed.

She blamed herself for being "imperfect." Only now, years later, through counselling, is she realizing that faulting herself constantly for lack of perfection is unhealthy and came from the cult's indoctrination designed to control its members and keep them in line.

My youngest child nearly died shortly after birth because of scientology's distrust and unwillingness to get competent medical care for members. She spent the first several years of her life in a Sea Org nursery. I used to wonder why she would cry hysterically each morning when she was deposited in the facility.

It was staffed by children, usually 12 to 16 years old, from the Cadet Org. The nannies had no sense of hygiene, and the children often suffered from infections, illnesses, fleas, lice, scabies or crabs.

During all of this, I was so focused on my job in the Sea Org -- Chief Quality Control Officer in the brainwashing factory -- that until one day when I was changing my child's diaper and saw little white worms wiggling their way out of her anus, I didn't realize the abuse going on.

Shortly after that I left the cult. But the image of those worms exiting my infant daughter still haunts me, just as the image of the twisted, forgotten children in the movie, Mondo Cane, seared into my memory.

It will for all time serve as a reminder to me of the neglect and abuse to which I subjected my own flesh and blood in order to "clear the planet."

Fortunately my children have all become strong enough, on their own, to overcome much of the handicap of growing up in the cult. They still bear me a certain amount of unspoken [and well- deserved] animosity for submitting them to this abusive upbringing and for my parental neglect. Our relationships as child and parent may never be fully normal.

In spite of this, I am proud to say, none of my kids have hesitated to warn other children and adults:

STAY AWAY FROM SCIENTOLOGY!

I have not mentioned the parental neglect of children I have witnessed in my 15 years in the cult, the conditions in the Cadet Org -- where children of Sea Org parents are warehoused without contact from parents for weeks on end, or the work camp conditions of some of the facilities for children because it is enough for me to admit the abuse to which I exposed MY OWN children.

I don't know if anyone can comprehend the remorse I feel for subjecting my children to this alienating, warped, repressive environment. I pray our story serves as a warning:

SCIENTOLOGY IS DANGEROUS TO THE HEALTH AND SANITY OF YOUR CHILDREN!!

Well, Rosie . . .

this article contains a picture about Co$ and children, by a man who has been there and seen it, that Co$ doesn't want to be seen . . .

but just for you, I think his words needed to be heard.

ARC, Beverly

Who is Dennis Erlich, and why did Scientology conduct a raid at his home on his computer files?

Note: this section is included in the FAQ because of the central importance of Mr. Erlich's contributions to ars and criticism of Scientology, and the massive amount of attention his legal wranglings with the Scientology cult have brought to the newsgroup. A great deal more can be found out about all this on Ron Newman's webpage.

From: dennis.l.erlich@support.com
Date: Thu, 11 Jan 96
Dear New Reader, Hello. My name is Dennis Erlich, and I would like to welcome you to the wacky world of alt.religion.scientology. I extend this welcome despite the fact that I hold no "official"

position in the newsgroup, exactly in the same way that you don't. The only difference between us is that I got on-line here a bit earlier than you, or tuned into this newsgroup sooner than you did. And I know a bit about the subject of the newsgroup: scienotology. Er...I mean diaherretics. Or whatever is being discussed here.

Perhaps you heard that this particular newsgroup is like no other on the internet. It's true. For that reason it might take you a little while to get "up to speed" on the controversy, the jargon, and the medium. Stick with it, though.

It might be some kind of group adventure into a new community the internet is creating. Or like some really heavy cosmic-consciousness kind of universal "happening". Then again, maybe not. But you might actually be participating in human history here. God only knows.

What a concept for us little people, huh? (no offense to my vertically- impaired friends) I kinda "know the ropes" in this newsgroup to some extent, and so my friend (whom I've never met irl <in real life>), Martin, asked me to give you the quick tour. So you can grab your Free Clue about what's up around here, and decide if you want to lurk, post or move on. Martin asked me to do it in three screens, so I'm sure this particular piece of throw-away journalism has too much of something you didn't want, and not enough of something you did.

Sorry.

The reason I know so much about the scienos (that's what I call us/them) is that I was one myself from 1968 to 1982. I was very highly placed in the organization by the man we can thank for the specimen of mental excrement known as Scientology: El Ron Hubbard - who is now, thankfully, an UTTERLY DECEASED madman.

My position in the cult <may I call it that?> was Chief Cramming Officer. My job, according the the Phatman (as we like to call him), was "FORCE- FEEDING DATA". I was the Chief Quality Control Engineer in the world's most profitable mind-control factory, which the scienos plopped down in the sleepy little retirement and vacation community of Clearwater, Florida.

I watched the cult take over that town, discredit the Mayor, intimidate the Fire Marshal, and refuse to pay taxes on millions of dollars of property, and hundreds of millions in cash that flowed through the Clearwater operation.

My position involved seeing to it that Hubbard's voluminous directives regarding the absolutely correct procedure to use to mess with the inside of another person's head were correctly taught and exactly applied to each and every person who fell for the scam. My job was to fix it if mark wasn't made to believe he'd been helped by the mind-f*cking he'd paid so much of his hard-earned cash to receive. It was my responsiblity to *make* the techniques work and get others to do the same.

I know all their techniques. I went all the way to the top of the training and processing levels, and taught others how to teach them.

I left my billion year contracted position (deal with the devil?) in 1982 and have spent the last (what is it?) 13 or 14 years, putting my head back on after the experience. S'not so easy.

But alas, I found alt.religion.scientology in July of '94 and since then I have had a place to tell others of my experiences and continue my recovery from the effects of my 28 year encounter with the cult.

It is, by the way, my belief that any of the ex-Scientology posters you may read on ars, or on the newsgroup that discusses supposedly practical uses of scieno tek (alt.clearing.technology), are involved in some some sort of recovery from their Scientology experience. But what do I know.

In the summer of '94 I began posting internal documents which I had been given to train on as (please excuse the expression) a minister of Scientology, to this newsgroup.

These documents exposed the fraudulent and vicious nature of the scieno scam. I posted them based on the firm belief that the public had a right to know.

I posted them because in school I had read the highest law in the land, the United States Constitution, I believed (perhaps in in vast ignorance) that I had the right.

I posted these things under my own name, not anonymously, to prove to myself and to the scienos, that neither they, nor their twisted ideas, have control over me any longer. To prove that I control *my own* mind, and the actions that result from those thoughts.

The cult (I will be kind) bamboozled a Federal Judge in San Jose into thinking I was some kind of info-bootlegger, selling computer disks out of some dusty garage. This judge ordered a Civil Writ of Seizure (different from a criminal search warrant where probable cause is required). The judge allowed the scienos, without any Law Enforcement Officials present to conduct or even monitor the raid, to ransack my home; examine contents of every drawer, cabinet, closet and room; examine and copy the entire contents of my computers' hard drives; delete whatever they wanted to off my hard drives, pack up hundreds of my legally obtained disks, books and research papers; and take them without any inventory.

The rape of my privacy commenced at 7:30 in the morning of February 13th of last year (1995), and lasted seven hours with cult personnel in complete physical control of my home and person. I have still not had the property they stole during that raid returned to me, despite the fact that the judge has ruled that the raid violated my Constitutional Rights under the First and Fourth Amendments, vacated the Writ, and ordered them to return it.

I now face a long, drawn out legal battle with the cult for having dared to warn the public about the scam techniques.

Fortunately I have support of many wonderful people around the world on the net, the backing of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, the good wishes of the Cult Awareness Network, and the best pro bono (that means for the public good, freely given) legal representation from Morrison & Foerster (the Mighty MoFo, as they are known in these parts).

It is only hard costs - xeroxing, phones, depositions - that are not covered by MoFo's generous offer of legal protection.

For that reason, others have set up a legal defense fund for me. Perhaps its purpose is, more correctly, to defend the public's right to know.

Ask questions of the regulars here (not necessarily me, please, til you've gotten up to speed). Get your web browser set up and read some of the many wonderfully designed world wide web sites world wide web sites about the cult and its attempt to stifle free speech on the internet. Ron Newman's page is often recommended as the place to start.

Lurk and learn. Dismiss the matter as trivial or foolish. Join in the amazing adventure free speech in this new medium provides.

Or just scratch your head and say, WTF.

But whatever role you play or walk away from, try to enjoy yourself and not get too worked up. Leave that to the professionals. Good reading!

And kids ... don't try this at home.

Rev. Dennis L Erlich * * the inFormer * * <dennis.l.erlich@support.com>

<inForm@primenet.com>

<tarbaby @ irc>

And here's an example of the harassment Dennis received on the IRC channel #scientology at the hands of Yermo, an active Scientologist. Attacks like this coming from Scientologists can be see as more than idle threats on the net; all too often, Scientologists have backed up such threats with action.

Tarbaby, or tar for short, is Dennis Erlich's nickname on IRC;

see his .sig file above. Dennis knows Yermo in real life; take a look at Yermo's comments about assassinating Dennis.

*** on channels: #scientology <cultxpt> luxx; what's new in Chilacco?

<Luxx> tell me?

<Luxx> I haven't a clue <Luxx> clueless <Luxx> Knew a guy in the Org about ten years ago <Luxx> Know the name Ron Loving <Luxx> England <Luxx> Was in the states as well <Yermo> tar if you take the stage you will probably be assinated <Yermo> i hope tyou have your will made out <tarbaby> I'm up for it, Yer.

<Luxx> All the bru-ha-ha about the new is really simmering <Luxx> net <tarbaby> Nothing to leave. Nobody to leave it to.

<Yermo> i guess youve taKEN A FEW BULLETS AND IT DIDNT KILL YOU *** Mode change "+o tarbaby" on channel #scientology by Apteryx <Apteryx> bye folks *** Signoff: Apteryx () <tarbaby> I laugh at death, hahaha.

<Yermo> CAN WE SAY THAT I WAS THE FIRST TO CALL IT??

<tarbaby> Take whatever credit you need.

<Luxx> One of the "ex'es" compared the Net war to Vietnam <Yermo> i wast o <Yermo> ti want to take odds on how manny bullets you take <Yermo> you will live on in ars heaven <Yermo> the first martyr <cultxpt> yermo; you are a putz <tarbaby> I can hardly wait.

<Luxx> Been a few others <Luxx> real ones * tarbaby laughs at Jeff.

*** dianer (~referen@slip166-72-251-82.oh.us.ibm.net) has joined channel +#scientology <Yermo> my bet they get you coming down the walkway from the airplane <dianer> hi, folks.

<Yermo> like aquino <tarbaby> Hi di.

*** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by cultxpt (cultxpt) *** Luxx has left channel #scientology *** Yermo (vircuser@host6.net1.directnet.com) has joined channel #scientology *** Signoff: tarbaby (Later, my friends. Forward any quesions to +dennis.l.erlich@support.com. I'm ou) *** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by Holistic (my turn!) *** Yermo (vircuser@host6.net1.directnet.com) has joined channel #scientology <cultxpt> somebody ban him *** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by Stomps (Stomps) *** tarbaby (~dennis.l.@ip239.lax.primenet.com) has joined channel +#scientology *** Yermo (vircuser@host6.net1.directnet.com) has joined channel #scientology *** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by Stomps (Stomps) <dianer> what's yermo up to?

*** Yermo (vircuser@host6.net1.directnet.com) has joined channel #scientology *** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by Stomps (Stomps) <tarbaby> Don't kick yermo.

*** Yermo (vircuser@host6.net1.directnet.com) has joined channel #scientology *** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by Stomps (Stomps) *** Yermo (vircuser@host6.net1.directnet.com) has joined channel #scientology *** Mode change "+b yermo!*@*" on channel #scientology by Holistic *** Yermo has been kicked off channel #scientology by Stomps (Stomps) <tarbaby> Jeeze, don't I get a say?

<cultxpt> thanks. no, we dont tolerate crap here, tar.

<dianer> what did I miss?

<tarbaby> Well, I'm the newby. Whatever you all say.

*** Mode change "+b *!vircuser@*.directnet.com" on channel #scientology by +Stomps * dianer thinks she always arrives after the fire's been put out.

<Stomps> Does that work better?

<cultxpt> dianer; yermo was talking a bit too strongly about someone getting +shot.

<tarbaby> I'd rather have the threats than know things were happening behind +the scenes.

<Holistic> stomps: yeah, i just did a ban on his nick to stop his auto-join <tarbaby> YHN <dianer> oops!

<dianer> tarbaby: isn't Yermo your old buddy Andy's ex-roommate?

<tarbaby> Not my buddy.

<tarbaby> Rosa's brother.

<dianer> tarbaby: well, I meant that in the *nasty* way <grin>

<dianer> Wasn't he also mxxvi?

<tarbaby> I knew that, di.

<tarbaby> Yes, he was.

<cultxpt> I don't suppose anyone was saving that?

*** aspasia (aspasia@pipe4.nyc.pipeline.com) has joined channel #scientology <dianer> maybe someone can remember mxxvi's address and ban that, too.

<tarbaby> Not me, Jeff.

<dianer> also, appeared here as Dan, didn't he?

* aspasia and bivalve wave <tarbaby> I don't know why he's being banned.

<dianer> hi, aspasia! hi, bivalve!

<tarbaby> And I don't vote for it.

<Holistic> saving what jeff? a log og what yermo was sayin?

<cultxpt> holi yes.

<aspasia> problems with dan/dayun/mxxki/yermo?

<Holistic> i can dump my buffer to a file, hold on <cultxpt> yermo was wishing a bullet for tarbaby <aspasia> Jeez <andii> that was nice of him.

<tarbaby> I told him I was ready for a lead injection.

*** mxxki (vircuser@pm4-22.pacificnet.net) has joined channel #scientology <aspasia> Was s/he not talking nicely about old time w/ dennis last night?

*** skaplin (~skaplin@dial060.skypoint.net) has joined channel #scientology <dianer> tarbaby: at least you've got some witnesses to the enmity towards +you.

<dianer> hi, slap.

<skaplin> slap???

<skaplin> :) <tarbaby> How could someone not like me?

<dianer> well, hey, that's close enough. <grin>

*** Mode change "+b *!vircuser@*.pacificnet.net" on channel #scientology by +Stomps *** mxxki has been kicked off channel #scientology by cultxpt (cultxpt) * dianer thinks she'll add to the violent tone of the channel tonight.

<andii> violent?

<tarbaby> I wish you wouldn't, di.

* skaplin will watch himself because Diane's Freudian slip is showing!

<dianer> tarbaby: shape up, or I'll get out the steamroller.

* dianer doesn't have a Freudian slip.

<tarbaby> So what's the deal on kicking the dude. I needed him on the channel +to take temprature.

<cultxpt> tar; you can email him <dianer> tarbaby: is he still on-lines?

<cultxpt> :) <tarbaby> ?

<Stomps> he knows how to msg people if he needs to get back <cultxpt> yes, he's still on irc <tarbaby> Right, Jeff.

<skaplin> Who got kicked? Dan?

<cultxpt> vircuser <tarbaby> Just because he was betting on my death, why ban him?

<Stomps> yes, kicked and banned from two sites <tarbaby> It doesn't seem fair. He was just be a realist.

<aspasia> dan/dayun/mxxki/yermo > wow, I was away and just read all the action from the log. who's this
+Yermo?

<cultxpt> rn; you've got it? Can you save it?

<Stomps> Dan, who says he's OT5, not onlines, not in agreement with the +current rulers <Holistic> jeff: i'm working on prettying the log up <tarbaby> Where's a lawman when you need him?

<cultxpt> holi; ok < hold on.>

Update on Dennis Erlich's case:

From: inForm@primenet.com (Rev. Dennis L Erlich)
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: update on Dennis Erlich case?
Date: 25 Mar 1997 19:34:03 -0700
Simon Robinson <k964793@atlas.king.ac.uk>:

>During the course of carrying out research into copyright and the
>Internet, I have become interested in the Dennis Erlich vs CoS case.
>
>I haven't found any recent news on this - can anyone please give me an
>update?
Sure thing:

1) The trial is scheduled for September.

2) The cut-off for discovery is coming up in May, I believe.

3) I am scheduled for 3 days of deposition April 1-3.

4) MoFo filed a motion yesterday to compel the poodle's deposition and to order production of documents. (David Miscavige) 5) The scienos filed a protective order to block poodleboy's depo.

6) We have noticed the scienos that we will be doing a walk-thru inspection of the Flag Land Base in Clearwater and the LA facility.

7) The scienos have yet to return some of the material they stole during the raid.

8) Judge Whyte may deny me the right to have a jury decide the copyright fair use and trade secret case.

Questions?

I was on my post on the 10th floor balcony. I had been the Chief Cramming Officer for about a year.

Had my junior all hatted and operational. Had a good word clearer working full-time on my cramming cycles.

Office overlooked Clearwater Bay. Life was tolerable.

Now you should know that when you get busted in the Sea Org, the message would be delivered by a 12-15 year old girl in white short-shorts and white halter top.

I was enjoying the afternoon sun when such a young lady presented herself to my startled self. Uh oh.

(rectum tightens) "You have been assigned to the RPF. Here's the order.

Come with me right now." "No, you may not clear out your desk." "No you may not call your wife." NOW.

[tone forty command] I think, "If I don't go with her, she'll say alright, and walk away. Several large men will return. They will have clubs and Mace. Best go with her."

As we walk away, I tell my junior and word clearer who look terrified, "Don't worry, I'll be reprieved and back for dinner."

[I had been assigned a year earlier by Miss Cabbage and reprieved by Phatman a day later.] I was immediately taken to the sub-basement of the Ft. Harrison Hotel in Clearwater Florida. There was a woman from the GO *chained* in a small back room behind a pile of filthy bedparts.

Because the best accommodations were taken, I was placed inside a 7 x 7 chicken-wired cell containing numerous toilet tanks, seats, and assorted sinks and urinals. The door to the enclosure was closed and a lock was inserted, but not locked, on the door.

I spent 4 days just sitting in there thinking. The next 6 I spent cleaning.

I "graduated" into the normal RPF program.

That was the joke.

"So funny I forgot to laugh."

Rev. Dennis L Erlich

>I'd like to see how that lying weasel tries to avoid the truth on this
>one. I saw the cult induce what could only be described (in my
>non-professional opinion) as a psychotic break through a program of
>sleep-deprivation, overwork, threats, intimidation, and personal
>abuse. Remarkably similar to what we hear about brain-washing btw.
>Then the person was locked up and fed bread and water until ready to
>confess her sins and begin to "work out of the condition." Part of
>the working out consisted of yet further abuse, including cleaning
>linoleum floors all night with kerosene and steel-wool.
>
>Scientology sucks, it's a totalitarian organization complete with
>uniforms, officers, and brutal punishment programs.
>
>Zane
When I was taken to the RPF's RPF in 1978, and locked in the sub-basement of the Ft. Harrison Hotel in Clearwater, there was a young lady (former GO) named Lynn Froyland CHAINED in one of the dark and dusty storage rooms down there. She screamed in terror at being a prisoner.

Whipsnapper has no answers to this kind of eyewitness info, Zane. OSA doesn't feed him instructions about this kinda stuff.

My name is Robert Lorei and my guests are Jeff Jacobsen and Jeff Lee; both are Internet users. Jeff Jacobsen, by the way, is a former member of a cult, and he's very concerned about people who get involved with cults; and also with us by telephone is Dennis Erlich, who is a former Chief Cramming Officer for the Church of Scientology.

And, gentlemen, welcome to WMNF, it's good to have you here;

thanks for coming down.

JJ: Thank you.

RL: Hi, Dennis, can you hear us? Hi, Dennis, are you there?

DE: Yes, I'm here.

RL: Okay, good. Dennis, I'm going to start with you, and start asking you: what did you do for the Church of Scientology?

DE: Well, in the end I was appointed to the position of Chief Cramming Officer at the Clearwater headquarters of Scientology, and my job was basically force-feeding data -- that's what Hubbard, the founder of Scientology, described it as. I now describe it as the quality control engineer in the brainwashing factory that they run in Clearwater.

RL: You think Scientology is brainwashing?

DE: Well, I don't think that, I know that. I spent fifteen years teaching people Scientology and directing Scientology technology of brainwashing, so I'm familiar with it; it's not a guess. I could explain it to you in those terms if you want.

RL: Well, okay, as long as you raised it, why do you think Scientology is brainwashing?

DE: Well, it systematically robs a person of his critical -- critical abilities; in other words, his ability to question things. In Scientology they tell you, "if it's true for you, then it's true," so objective reality becomes sort of fuzzy.

It's based on whatever you believe. And, you know, your beliefs are systematically supplanted with the beliefs that they instill in you by these training drills and so forth.

RL: I want to get back to this, and also your history with Scientology, but let me introduce our two other guests today;

they are Jeff Jacobsen and Jeff Lee. Jeff Jacobsen, why are you going to be involved in this protest, what's -- tell us a little bit about your background; why you're concerned.

JJ: Well, I've been a public critic of Scientology since about '86; I was in a cult myself back in the seventies -- so I've had an interest in cults since then -- and just gradually came to see Scientology as being one of the more dangerous cults out there, so I've spent more and more of my time concentrating on them.

RL: And how did you get out of the cult that you were in? Which cult were you in?

JJ: I was in a small Pentecostal church which is cultish -- the local church was a cult -- and from ' 72 to ' 77 or ' 78 I was in that, and finally I just began to realize that this was not what they claimed they were, which is the only true Christian church on the planet, and that they were being a little deceptive, and finally I just got fed up and quit.

RL: So, a deprogrammer, that sort of thing, wasn't involved in your case?

JJ: Not at all. That was almost an unheard word back then.

RL: Back in the late seventies. Jeff Lee, how about you? Why are you interested in -- why are you involved in this protest this weekend against the Church of Scientology?

JL: Well, I've been involved in the Internet for about ten years now, in one form or another, and I was made aware that the Church of Scientology was attempting to abrogate people's right of free speech on the Internet. Free speech is very important on the Net, and the more I learned about what Scientology was doing -- illegally canceling people's messges, attempting to remove a discussion area where people discussed the church -- the more concerned I became, and then the more I learned about the church, I became involved in other areas of protest against it.

RL: Okay. I'm going to get back to this whole question of Internet censorship that you folks allege, but let's get back to Dennis Erlich, who is a former Chief Cramming Officer for the Church of Scientology. Dennis, when did you first get involved with the church, and -- why did you become involved?

DE: In late 1967 I became involved because I saw a remarkable change in a very shy friend of mine, and I thought, "Well, whatever this is, is probably a good thing, because it was able to produce such a remarkable change in attitude in the person."

RL: And then you decided to join yourself?

DE: Yes. I took some of the introductory courses, and I felt that their claims to have all the answers to the human mind required a little bit more in-depth verification, if you understand what I mean. They claim to have ALL the answers. So, yeah, I joined staff in 1968, and I became -- back then it was sort of bogus that we were "ministers", I mean in '72, Hubbard insisted on everybody starting to look more ministerial for the purposes of -- for tax purposes, because they started fighting the IRS -- so for a little while we even had to wear ministers' outfits, but it was kind of a disguise.

RL: Did you all -- did your fellow "ministers", so to speak, all share this skepticism, all share the -- DE: Many of them felt -- yeah, they were in it to -- more as a mental, an alternative therapy. When we first got in, in t68, it was more of a -- an alternative therapy, a way to supposedly release the abilities that people had suppressed within themselves.

RL: Did you find that you were helped in any way by Scientology?

DE: Well, I mean, are you talking overall, or bit by bit?

RL: Let's talk bit by bit, and then let's talk overall.

DE: Well, bit by bit, yeah, there are little -- there are things, the tricks: I call them kind of a "mental jiujitsu"

that you learn, and you learn how to deceive yourself into believing that you're feeling better, and you learn how to stare people down, and how to control communication, and how to control "raw meat" -- that's what they call the people who are not Scientologists -- RL: "Raw meat" meaning new recruits?

DE: Right, exactly. "Raw meat" meaning -- ''bodies in the shop". They have a statistic called "bodies in the shop", and that's how many people are "body-routed'' -- that's the actual term -- off the street into the org -- organization -- for services.

RL: And, overall, what do you feel about your experience with Scientology? Were you helped overall, after years and years of being involved with the church?

DE: No, quite the contrary. I was led away from God, I was led in a direction toward less and less self-determinism, where they were dictating how I thought completely, and how I acted completely, and when I got out, I felt this surge of freedom, that I was now protected by the Constitution; I had rights, I had -- you know, they couldn't lock me up again.

RL: You were locked up by the church?

DE: Yeah, in the sub-basement of the Fort Harrison Hotel. I was placed in a cage, under guard, for about ten days. I wasn't allowed to talk to anyone; I wasn't allowed to phone anyone; I was a prisoner there.

RL: Why were you locked up?

DE: I made a joke.

RL: About?

DE: I "made a joke about the RPF -- the Rehabilitation Project Force -- which is their -- their "re-education" work camp program, where it's sort of like -- like in Russia, where they used to send people to work camps, to re-educate them, and they have this thing called the Rehabilitation Project Force, where you get up -- you're segregated. When I was in it, we slept in the garage, in the parking structure of the Fort Harrison Hotel, on the third floor. And, you know, we had to breathe the exhaust fumes from whatever cars, and get woken up in the middle of the night, and we were up at the crack of dawn, you know, scrubbing toilets and dumping trash, and we worked until late at niqht and it was, you know, basically a prisoner program.

RL: Let me back up a little bit. You were among the early group of Scientologists that came to Clearwater. What year did you come to Clearwater, and what did you tell the community when you came?

DE: Well, there was an intermediate base in Daytona Beach, while they were setting up -- while they were purchasing the Fort Harrison -- and setting up what they call the "shore story" -- it's a shore story because Hubbard had been cruising around the Mediterranean, and the Carribbean for years, and had basically been kicked out of every port. He needed to come back to the US, because he didn't have any more ports that he could take his ship into. So they bought the Fort Harrison Hotel, I think it was for eight million dollars cash, at the time, under the name of "United Churches". They didn't call themselves Scientology; it was a front purchase. They didn't want anybody in the community to know it was Scientology.

When we came there, which was in the beginning of '76, we came by buses from Daytona seach; about six buses of staff members.

And we were told -- we were given a shore story, if we were asked by anybody in the community who we were, we were ministers on a BAbbatical. From maybe Europe, from maybe someplace else in the country. But we were there for a -- for seminars by this United Churches organization, which we were not supposed to talk about. And we were supposed to report any contact like that to what was back then the Guardian's Office.

The Guardian's Office has since then been sort of -- the name has been disbanded, and now it's the Office of Special Affairs.

RL: The Guardian Office would be like an internal investigation office?

DE: Exactly. It's sort of like the RGB of Scientology, and now it's called the Office of Special Affairs.

RL: So you weren't honest with the people of Clearwater as you came to Clearwater, to set up this headquarters.

DE: Well, fortunately, I never had to particularly lie; it wasn't my job to lie. They have professional liars who are their PR people, like Heber Jentzsch and so forth -- the president -- their job is lying. And I was -- that wasn't my job. My job was taking care of the people who were delivering the thought control.

RL: "Taking care of the people who were delivering the thought control."

DE: Right.

RL: Tell us more about that, what does that mean?

DE: Well, the levels in Scientology, there's -- see, they have these things that they call donations, but they're really the price of courses and counseling. And each of these counselors gets -- they charge for every minute of counseling, at three hundred dollars an hour and up.

RL: Describe some of the levels. What are the lower levels of Scientology, and whet 're the top levels of Scientology>?

DE: The lower levels of Scientology deal first with -- Dianetics deals with moments of unconsciousness, supposedly, and past life incidents that you're supposed to relive. And then the lower levels up to Clear deal with problems and communication, and they just let the person sort of talk about them and stuff, and, you know, chew around in his own mind, until he believes what he's taught to believe is going on in his head. The upper levels of Scientology, after the person has been thoroughly indoctrinated, they all deal with exorcism.

Exorcism of demons; supposedly everybody has thouBAnds and thouBAnds of demons. Now, they don't tell the person at the beginning this, because they want to -- they want to assert the lie that Scientology is compatible with other religions, even though Hubbard himself said there was no Christ, and that God was a concept that was a trick that was played on mankind in order to -- in order to control people.

RL: What goes on at one of these exorcisms, and does the church call them exorcisms?

DE: Well, the church calls them OT Levels, and they charge a lot a lot a lot of money for them. I mean, hundreds of thouBAnds of dollars for just what I'm telling you. The OT levels three through seven all deal with exorcism. They call them -- let me see, the call them "body thetans" instead of "demons 't, and they BAy that they are causing those body thetans to "blow", or leave, and that is what's -- you see, the thoughts -- they assert that the thoughts that you're thinking in your head are not your thoughts, but they're the thoughts of these other --- (laughs) -- I'm sorry, but this is their belief -- RL: So -- DE: I don't mean to ridicule it.

RL: So in the end, the highest level you can achieve within the church is to rid your body of as much of these body thetans that are giving yo,u bad thoughts.

DE: Exactly, that's exactly what it's about. That is the essence of what it's about, and unfortunately, people aren't told this in the beginning, because if they WERE told in the beginning, they wouldn't go for it. So it's a bait-and-switch fraud. In other words, you come in -- a bait-and-switch fraud is a case where one thing is advertised, but when you get there, you're sort of sold something -- a different package.

RL: Now, you told me yesterday, as I was pre-interv:iewing you about this, you said that the people that are at the highest level of the church actually believe that they are gods.

Explain why you think that.

DE: Well, the highest level of Scientology deals -- the highest levels of Scientology deal with -- the people are so deluded that they think that they are "cause over matter, energy, space and time", and that they can create universes, and that whatever they think becomes reality. And that reality itself is liquid, and if they don't believe it, that it'll go away, sort of. (laughs) So they are -- they're in kind of a -- they've done so much what you'd call "positive thinking" about themselves that they believe that they can control the weather, that they brought down the serlin Wall, much like the TMers think that they can fly, you know, it's just a kind of a delusionary state where they think that they are what they call "OTs", which is like this god-like state.

RL: Now, positive thinking, in itself, doesn't sound that bad.

I guess what really concerns me -- and I guess, the pub].ic at large -- is this talk that you were held prisoner, or held against your will, in the basement there at the church for ten days. Are you the only one that's been held against your will at the Church of Scientology in Clearwater?

DE: Oh, not by any means. No, no, it's sort of a standard practice for them to incarcerate people who object to things -- object to activities that tre going on -- so when I was in the basement, there was a woman -- I can give you her name; her name was Lynn Freulind -- and she was chained in the basement when I was there. And I have witnesses; there are other witnesses to that. There are people who have been kidnapped and taken, you know, all the way across country and locked in rooms, and -- no, it's sort of a standard practice. They don't talk about it much, but - RL: Is it easier to chain or kidnap a member of the Church of Scientology than it would be for somebody who's not in the church, who doesn't have a strong belief in the ideology?

DE: Well, sure. See, I sort of halfway went along with it, because, you know, I believed that this group held the key to my immortal soul. In other words, I had sold my soul to this group, and I believed that if I didn't sort of -- if I fought it, if I fought the incarceration, I was not only going to be arrested, (laughs) because they would just BAy, "Well, he went crazy and we had to shoot him'' kind of thing. But I would also be losing my chance at redeeming my soul.

RL: And according to Scientology, your soul lasts forever and you get reincarnated over and over again, is that - DE: Yeah, that's the deal.

RL: Okay. Jeff Jacobsen wants to jump in. Jeff?

JJ: Yeah, I just want to make a little distinction. I think the things Dennis is talking about are the employees of the church go to the RPF; the public Scientologists basically go and take their courses and then go home to their jobs and things, so there's sort of a distinction there between the workers in the church and the public who are taking courses.

DE: Exactly.

RL: Well, what percentage of the folks are workers who are in Scientology, and what percent are just members who show up for a reading lesson or a counseling session?

DE: I'd BAy a third are staff members and two thirds are paying public.

RL: Okay. I guess one of the things that the public knows most about is that people like Tom Cruise and Kirstie Alley -- actors, Hollywood actors -- John Travolta, the jazz pianist Chick Corea -- they're all members of the Church of Scientology, and I guess one has to wonder why these people, who are presumably very thoughtful and bright, why they would stay in the church, given the fact that this stuff goes on in Clearwater and possibly elsewhere in the church. I mean, why would somebody presumably as smart as Kirstie Alley or Tom Cruise stay within the church?

DE: I hope you're not asking me why these people are so smart.

RL: Well, I'm just guessing that they are.

DE: Well, I think you're being overly kind. They have awareness of the controversies that I am -- about Scientology that I am bringing up, and they care not to look at it. They don't care to -- they're purchasing their BAlvation and they are not really that interested that staff members who are giving them their BAlvation are being locked un. Even though they've heard that. I'm sure they have.

RL: If I were taken on a tour of the church headquarters in Clearwater, would I see the kind of thing that you're talking about: that is, places where people have been locked up, or would I get a hint of the kind of thinqs that you're talking about?

DE: No, you wouldn't. You'd be taken with an escort to only certain areas and people would point to students in the course room studying quietly and BAy "look how nice they are" and '.look how wonderful everything is", and then you'd be escorted out.

RL: Why did you leave the church?

DE: Well, my -- two of my children were in Clearwater with me.

One of them had signed a billion-year contract much as I had.

She was thirteen. And -- RL: Wait a minute, a billion-year contract, meaning that you'll pledge your loyalty to the Church of Scientology for a billion years?

DE: That's it. Yeah. Come back lifetime after lifetime to serve Hubbard and his organization. It's really like selling your soul, I mean, obviously. When you pledge yourself for a billion years to an organization -- and believe it! (laughs) RL: So -- (laughs) -- so you were uncomfortable with this contract?

DE: Well, uncomfortable with it? In the beginning, yeah; it took me several years to get my nerve up to sign the contract so that I could come and work with Hubbard.

RL : Does everybody who works for the church sign the billion-year contract?

DE: Everybody who works in Clearwater, yes. The church -- the staff are -- and I hate to use the word 'tchurcht', because I know it's not. The staff of the cult are divided into Sea Org members, which is like the military part of the staff -- those are the people you see walking around your town in mock BAilor suits and stuff.

RL: And they've signed the billion-year contract?

DE: They have signed it -- yes, exactly.

RL: Tell me more about why you left.

DE: Well, my children -- I had an infant daughter, who was born at the Fort Harrison, and a thirteen-year-old. And I realized that I wasn't prepared to have them be locked in basements and go through the kind of torture that staff members are routinely put through in the Sea Org. So I sort of made a stand. I -- my job consisted of correction, so I attempted to institute some reforms in 1981, because I had been in for quite a while. And shortly after that, I was sort of asked to leave -- or, by mutual consent. I was given a choice: I could either go back to the Rehabilitation Project Force, or leave. So I left.

RL: When you BAy your job was corrections, does that mean that you were responsible for putting people on these work details or under chains or anv -- DE: I had the power to do that, but I never did, no. My job was basically to correct the application of Hubbard's words with regard to his techniques at mind control. I was -- I got people to do it the way Hubbard said. So I wasn't -- no. You're thinking with regard to Ethics Officers. See, I was the Cramming Officer, which is related to the techniques; the Ethics Officers related more to punishment and -- it's a different division in the organization. RL: Okay. What's happened to you since you left? Have you had any interaction with the church or church members since you left the Church of Scientology? And that was in 1982?

DE: Uh-huh.

RL: Yeah? What's happened?

DE: Well, the most current thing is that I tried to, using my free speech rights on Internet, I tried to warn people about the things that I have told you: that it's basically relating -- that Scientology basically is a -- is an occult practice that deals mostly in exorcism; that it's a fraud; that people are locked up and tortured, and these other things that I had documentation of. And I posted a bunch of this documentation to the Internet newsgroup alt.religion.scientology, and I think I poked a hole in the -- in their balloon, as far as their scam working.

RL: So you talked -- you put this information that you've told us on the Tnternet DE: Exactly.

RL: You've talked about the religious philosophy; you've also talked about the punishment that people receive -- DE: Exactly RL: -- and Scientology didn't like that DE: Not at all; they sent me threatening letters BAying that, you know, they were going to confiscate my computer and all of these other things, and I said, well, you know -- they were claiming that I had no right to quote their material. I mean, this was material that I was trained on as a minister, and now I'm ministering on Internet with this material. So they said I had no right to quote it, and I said, no, I think I do. Under the Constitution, I have a right to free speech, and this is my religion, and this is -- these are my criticisms of your religion, and -- (laughs) RL: Were you making money? I mean, were you -- DE: Oh, no.

RL: Did people have to pay to get -- I know this is a dumb auestion for people that use the Internet, but I think I've got to ask it -- did people have to pay to get access to this information, were you making money off this?

DE: No. Quite the contrary; it was costing me money to do that, because I ,had to, you know, make -- type the material in, or scan it in, it was taking time, and so forth -- it was a project of my ministry, and I still consider that I minister to these ex-cult members to -- in their recovery, because there is an extensive recovery from Scientology.

RL: One last auestion for you about the internal workings of the Church of Scientology. You've talked about people who gain elevation within the church, and they have to pay in order to get higher and higher within the church; how much money does the average Scientologist pay to the church, and how much money does the church have? Are we talking about hundreds of thouBAnds, are we talking about millions, or what are we talking about?

DE: Well, the total tab from "wog" -- which is what they call "raw meat" people -- you know, humans -- the total tab from wog to OT is about 3350,000. We added it up from their price list.

(laughs) RL: You mean -- DE: They actually have a price list.

RL: You mean if somebody comes in and takes all the courses that Scientology offers, they will have paid $350,000 by the end?

DE: Well, if they take all the courses, no, it'd be more like $500,000. But if they just want to go to OT, from human to OT -- which is like a qod-like state -- it's about $350,000.

RL: How many people actually do that within the church? How many actually spend $350,000?

DE: Oh, there's a couple. The Feshbach brothers, you know, the ones that are in the stock market, the bears who make money spreading bad news, they've probably paid that much. There's probably a hundred or so people worldwide that I've spent that much money, but you know, in the -- people are striving to that, those goals, so they're always trying to get more money to pay the -- for their next level. RL: And overall, how much money do you think the church has raised, through its counseling?

DE: Well, up to nineteen -- the mid-seventies, when they established the Clearwater base, money was being taken out of the United States in suitcases -- cash was being smuggled out of the United Stated in suitcases -- to Hubbard, wherever his ship was. When I left in 1982, the income, cash in hand, of the Clearwater operation was between half a million and a million and a half a week. And if it fell below a million -- excuse me, if it fell below half a million -- the staff were put on rice and beans three meals a day. You know, fed only rice and beans, until the gross income improved. The overall worth of the cult is probably at least two billion.

RL: We're talking with several people who are going to take part in a protest against the Church of Scientology this weekend. On the telephone with us is Dennis Erlich. He's at his home in California. He's going to be coming to the Tampa Bay area for this BAturday's protest. Also here are Jeff Jacobsen and Jeff Lee, and we're going to talk abobt the church's attempts to censor the Internet. Jeff Lee, let me pose this question to you: is there a problem with the church going after Dennis for putting this stuff up on the Internet? As an Internet user, why do you object to what the church has done?

JL: Well, I object to the -- the silencing of any criticism.

The church claims that it is supportive of free speech, but apparently that free speech doesn't quite make over the line to criticism of themselves. They have a written policy about the sorts of things that are done to enemies -- and people who criticize the church or its founder are considered to be enemies. In 1967, L. Ron Hubbard wrote that an enemy "May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist'' and "may be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." And that's the sort of things that they're doing -- they have a very heavy history of litigation against anyone -- RL: But hasn't the church done away with that -- that document?

I mean, hasntt the church said, "we're not going to take that kind of action anymore"? I mean, the church, a few years ago, I know, was under a lot of criticism and has said publicly that that's not the stance of the church any longer.

JL: Well, it's a semantic game, because that kind of policy was referred to as "Fair Game". And a year and a day -- year and three days after he put out that policy, he put out another one that BAys "Cancellation of Fair Game". And it BAys that "The practice of declaring people FAIR GAME will cease." The reason being that "It causes bad public relations." But he then goes on to specifically state that the policy letter ndoes not cancel any policy on the treatment or handling" of an enemy. So they can't CALL it Fair Game, and when people talk about Fair Game, they BAy, 'iWell, no, it doesn't exist any more." But in truth, it does; it's just not CALLED Fair Game.

RL: Well, in fact, are ex-church members harassed? Is there a record that we can look at, and BAy that the people have been either framed or harassed or anything by the Church of Scientology?

JL: Oh, absolutely, I mean -- RL: Give some examples.

JL: Well, local example: Margery Wakefield is an excellent example of it She spoke out against the church, she was sued;

she was -- all sorts of things. She claimed that somebody came and spread blood in her apartment -- Dennis, of course, he was -- they have a term that's called "dead agenting", which means to take things that people have confessed in their supposedly private confessionals, and use them against people. - RL: People confessed during these Scientology church counseling sessions and that information has come back to haunt them?

JL: Yes.

RL: By the -- used by the church.

JL: Oh, yes.

RL: You told me a story about a woman who was an ex-member of the Church of Scientology, who had become a critic, who was framed on a bomb charge.

JL: No, she wasn't an ax-member; she was an author, her name was Paulette Cooper. And she wrote a book called The Scandal of Scientology, which offended the Scientologists, and their Guardian's Office -- now the Office of Special Affairs -- ran a series of operations called Operation PC Freakout, and I have some documents here which were seized by the FBI in 1977, when they raided some of Scientology's headquarters. And they talk -- all sorts of things about impersonating her and causing scenes, trying to get her committed to a mental institution.

They have one here where they attempt to get her fingerprints on blank stationery which they then used to type up a bomb threat against Henry Kissinger, and send it to him; and she was arrested and tried, and if the FsI hadn't raided the headauarters. she orobablv would be in orison to this daY.

RL: We're talking about this protest this weekend. When is the protest, and where is it going to be again?

JJ: We're going to meet BAturday, this BAturday morning at 9:15 at the courthouse, downtown Clearwat

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