1
1
2
3        IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4                      CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
6
7
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
8   Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
9
10             Plaintiff,
11   vs.                                     VOLUME 1
12   CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
13   JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14
Defendants.
15
_______________________________________/
16
17
18   PROCEEDINGS:        Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
19
CONTENTS:           Testimony of Jesse Prince.
20
DATE:               June 18, 2002, afternoon session.
21
PLACE:              Courtroom B, Judicial Building
22                       St. Petersburg, Florida.
23   BEFORE:             Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
24
REPORTED BY:        Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
25                       Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.



 

2
1   APPEARANCES:
2   MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3   5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4   Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5   MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6   112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7   Attorney for Plaintiff
8   MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9   1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10   Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12   MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13   101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14   Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16   RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17   New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18   Organization.
19   MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN
MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP
20   150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870
St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381
21   Attorney for LMT.
22
23
24
25



 

3
1                INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2                                                  PAGE   LINE
3   JESSE PRINCE                                     5     13
DIRECT              Mr. Dandar                   6      5
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25



 

4
1           (The proceedings were resumed at 12:50 p.m.)
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I left that on your chair.
3             THE COURT:  Okay.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  And I have one thing to hand up
5        to you.  I'm told this is the original and the
6        copies that were made of what Mr. Keane produced to
7        Mr. Moxon yesterday?
8             THE COURT:  Oh, okay.  Great.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  The original is the thin file
10        and the copies are behind it.
11             THE COURT:  Okay.  And we'll -- as I said,
12        Mr. Keane is here, and so when he gets a chance, I'm
13        sure he'll come up.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I believe I moved
15        Plaintiff's Exhibits 104, 105, 106 and 107 into
16        evidence, and Mr. Young had the clerk's copies, and
17        they're not marked yet, so --
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Let me see 107.
19             MR. DANDAR:  These are the letters.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  We objected to the dictionary
21        but you had let it in, so --
22             THE COURT:  Right.
23             Possibly on these -- this production, it could
24        be something similar to the -- this -- this order.
25        I mean, he may have mailed a copy.



 

5
1             This is the order you just put back on my
2        chair.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Oh, yeah.
4             THE COURT:  If he mailed them to you yesterday,
5        but -- I mean, we'll just have to wait and see.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
7             THE COURT:  So let's go ahead and continue on
8        and we'll see if Mr. Keane has -- gets a chance to
9        come up here.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Plaintiff calls
11        Mr. Prince.
12               ____________________________________
13                          JESSE PRINCE,
14   the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
15   and testified as follows:
16             MR. WEINBERG:  For the record, your Honor, I
17        want to preserve the same objection that we've made
18        to Mr. Franks -- is that his name -- Mr. Franks and
19        Mr. Young, which is, among other things, the 404,
20        406, the First Amendment, and overall, at least as
21        it relates to the -- paragraph 34 of the complaint,
22        to competence, in light of the fact that he left the
23        church years before and doesn't have any personal
24        knowledge of what if anything occurred in 1995.
25             THE COURT:  All right.



 

6
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Same objection.  I presume that
2        it's preserved?  And I will limit my objections to
3        things like hearsay and other --
4             THE COURT:  It is preserved.
5                        DIRECT EXAMINATION
6   BY MR. DANDAR:
7        Q    Please state your name, and spell your last name.
8             THE COURT:  What witness is that?  Do you all
9        have the numbers by any chance?  How many witnesses
10        have you called, do you remember?
11             MR. DANDAR:  Caught me off guard.
12             THE COURT:  All right.  I'm just trying to put
13        a number with it.
14             Go ahead.
15        A    Jesse Prince, J-e-s-s-e, P-r-i-n-c-e.
16             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  I think we're number six.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.
18             MR. DANDAR:  I'll double-check.  Mr. Lirot will
19        be checking.
20   BY MR. DANDAR:
21        Q    Mr. Prince, how long have you lived in Pinellas
22   County?
23        A    Oh, for a little over two and a half years.
24        Q    Are you currently employed?
25        A    No, I am not.



 

7
1        Q    When is the last time you were employed?
2        A    Last September.
3        Q    And who were you employed by?
4        A    The Lisa McPherson Trust.
5        Q    What is the extent of your formal education?
6        A    Went to Catholic school pretty much all of my
7   elementary years.  I was born and raised a Catholic.  Went
8   to Chicago Vocational High School; went to Job Corps; went
9   to community college, college prep in Chicago.  I had a
10   scholarship for University of Louisiana which I never took.
11   And that's pretty much it.
12        Q    Why didn't you take the scholarship to Louisiana?
13        A    'Cause I was afraid to go there.
14        Q    All right.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could we possibly --
16        I don't know if the microphone's on or not, but I'm
17        having a hard time hearing Mr. Prince.
18             THE COURT:  Check and see if the microphone's
19        on.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  If you could get -- not that
21        close, but a little bit closer than he was.
22   BY MR. DANDAR:
23        Q    Just try to talk into it.
24        A    Okay.
25        Q    So what did you do after finishing your formal



 

8
1   education?
2        A    I had various jobs.  I worked at the Norfolk and
3   Western Railroad as a clerk.  I've worked in binderies, a
4   place in Chicago, Fidelity Bindery.  And -- well, wasn't too
5   much time after that before I became a Scientologist.
6        Q    What year did you join the Church of Scientology?
7        A    It was 1976.
8        Q    Where at?
9        A    San Francisco.
10        Q    And when did you become a Sea Org member?
11        A    I became a Sea Org member that same year.  I
12   believe I transferred to Los Angeles from San Francisco,
13   maybe in November, September or -- maybe September; sometime
14   between September or October, November, I went to the Sea
15   Org.
16        Q    Okay.  And can you tell us -- give us a capsule of
17   your experience in the Church of Scientology after becoming
18   a Sea Org member?  What did you do?
19        A    Well, I joined the Sea Org in '76.  And then at
20   that time, when you joined the Sea Org, there was a program
21   that was called the EPF that everyone who was becoming a Sea
22   Org member did.  EPF stood for estate's project force.  This
23   was located in a little house in -- in Los Angeles.  I guess
24   it was an old Charlie Chaplin estate.  It was a place where
25   you had to do training to become a Sea Org member.



 

9
1             The training for the most part culminated to
2   making you a missionaire.  A missionaire in the Sea Org is a
3   person that has studied certain levels up to at least what's
4   called staff status 2, which basically means you're familiar
5   with the basics of the organization, how it operates, how
6   it's staffed, how it's organized, the statistics of the area
7   and the rules and regulations.
8             It trains -- the mission school training involved
9   something that I guess I never even thought before.  It was
10   very military, where you -- you wear a uniform and you --
11   you're trained on orders to go to a Scientology organization
12   and improve the statistics by either changing personnel or
13   increasing production one way or the other.
14        Q    And how long did you maintain that status?
15        A    During the entire time, from -- from that point,
16   which would have been in 1977, to the time that I left in
17   1992.
18        Q    And what organization -- when you became a Sea Org
19   member and became staff, what organization was paying you?
20        A    Organization called the Advanced Organization Los
21   Angeles.
22        Q    And did you ever change from that to another?
23        A    Yes, I did.  I never made it through the EPF
24   before I was put on the RPF.  I was on the RPF for -- RPF
25   being the rehabilitation project force.  I was on the RPF



 

10
1   for 18 months.  And I got out of the RPF and went to an
2   organization called the PAC Co-Auditor Organization, P-A-C,
3   Pacific Area Command, Co-Auditor Organization.  This was a
4   Scientology organization that basically supervised and
5   trained staff members to audit themselves on Scientology's
6   bridge.
7        Q    How long did you stay there?
8        A    I probably stayed there for probably a little
9   under a year.  And I transferred from Los Angeles to here in
10   Clearwater, Florida in 1979, and I worked in -- at the Ft.
11   Harrison --
12        Q    What did you do --
13        A    -- and various other buildings.
14             I came there -- I came to Florida here to be a
15   supervisor; to actually train and supervise the training of
16   auditors, which are members that partake in the -- the
17   technical aspect of delivery of Scientology services.
18        Q    You were an auditor?
19        A    Yes, I was.
20        Q    And when did you --
21             THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  You came to Clearwater
22        when, sir?
23             THE WITNESS:  1979.
24             THE COURT:  To train supervisors.
25             THE WITNESS:  To -- to become a supervisor.  I



 

11
1        came here actually as a supervisor, to train
2        auditors.
3             At the time, NED for OTs had recently come out.
4        This was a big advance.
5   BY MR. DANDAR:
6        Q    NED, N-E-D?
7        A    Yes.
8        Q    What does that mean?
9        A    New era dynamics for operating thetans.
10        Q    This had just come out?
11        A    Yes.  This was new technology that had came out.
12   And it was urgent at that time in Scientology to be able to
13   train auditors in this new rundown.  This rundown is
14   delivered only by certain organizations, Flag being one of
15   them.  There's others in other countries.  And this was a
16   very specialized type of auditing.  So I was to train the
17   bulk of the auditors on this process so that they could then
18   go back to their organizations and deliver this new rundown.
19        Q    How did you did learn how to do it -- how did you
20   learn about it before you were able to train other auditors?
21        A    Well, there were other auditor levels that one had
22   to train on before being able to train on this NED for OT
23   levels.  I guess there was a requirement that a person had
24   to at least do Scientology academy levels, which are levels
25   0 to 4, specific auditing techniques.  And once you were



 

12
1   in -- trained and interned on that, you became eligible to
2   also learn to do this new NED for OTs business.
3             You also had to be of the same case level in order
4   to do that.  So for a person to be trained as a NED for OTs
5   auditor, they would have had to go through Scientology's
6   bridge all the way up to and through OT 3 expanded.
7        Q    How far up the bridge had you gotten before you
8   came to Clearwater?
9        A    I had done -- or I was mid what was called old OT
10   6.
11        Q    Okay.
12        A    And at the time, the levels only went to OT 7.  So
13   I was on the old OT 6.  Now, those OT levels changed with
14   the advent of NED for OTs to become something totally
15   different.  OT 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are something totally
16   different than what the services that were earlier offered
17   under those same names.
18        Q    How long did you stay in Clearwater, from 1979, to
19   supervise and train auditors?
20        A    I was here from the summer of '79 till the fall of
21   1982.
22        Q    And did your scope of the work that you were doing
23   at the Ft. Harrison and other Scientology buildings here in
24   Clearwater from '79 to '82 change?
25        A    Yes, it did.  It changed several times.  I went



 

13
1   from supervising auditors, to train them to get up to the
2   level of NED 4 OTs, to being --
3             THE COURT:  I don't know what you're saying.
4        NED fro-teez (phonetic.)
5             THE WITNESS:  New era dynamic for operating
6        thetans.  This is --
7             MR. DANDAR:  NED is N-E-D.
8             THE COURT:  For OTs.
9             MR. DANDAR:  F-o-r.  Yes.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.  Go ahead.
11        A    Anyway, I forgot what I was --
12   BY MR. DANDAR:
13        Q    Was NED for OTs --
14        A    Yes.
15        Q    -- written by Mr. Hubbard?
16        A    At the time that I studied them, I thought that it
17   was that.  I -- subsequently I guess it was determined in
18   the courtroom that the materials were actually written by
19   David Mayo.
20        Q    Okay.  But anyway, you were -- who were you
21   working for when you were sent to Clearwater from '79 to
22   '82?
23        A    Well, when I first arrived in 1979, I worked for
24   an organization that wasn't at the Ft. Harrison but at the
25   Clearwater Bank Building.  It was called the International



 

14
1   Training Org, ITO for short.  At the time the commanding
2   officer for the international training organization was Bill
3   Franks.
4        Q    Okay.  So you worked under him?
5        A    Under his command as the commanding officer.  I
6   had -- there were other people between myself and --
7        Q    Okay.
8        A    -- Mr. Franks for sure.
9        Q    Did you run into -- in Clearwater, did you train
10   Alain Kartuzinski?
11        A    Yes.  Alain Kartuzinski was a student that had
12   come from Paris to train on NED for OTs.  I do believe the
13   original idea for him was to go to one of the European
14   organizations such as Advanced Organization for Europe or --
15   yeah.  I think he was supposed to go to AOSH EU --
16        Q    Okay.
17        A    -- it's called, which is located in Copenhagen,
18   Denmark.  Or he would go to the one located in Saint Hill,
19   East Grinstead, Sussex.
20        Q    Try to keep closer to the microphone.
21        A    I'm sorry.
22        Q    And what else did you do in Clearwater from '79 to
23   '82, in addition to training auditors on this new rundown?
24        A    Well, I became what's known as the intern
25   supervisor, which is the supervisor that takes the students



 

15
1   that have finished their courses and then puts them through
2   a period of time where they have to demonstrate their skills
3   by auditing other people.  And they continue to do this
4   until they can do it perfectly and flawlessly.  The intern
5   supervisor is there to guide and direct and correct students
6   on the materials that they may not have understood as deeply
7   and as -- as would later be required for them to apply.
8             So I was the supervisor for a long time.
9             And then there is another position -- and all of
10   these things are -- kind of segue into one another -- of
11   what's called a cramming officer.  Now, a cramming officer
12   will take a person who maybe is making errors in auditing
13   and then correct them on their procedures or go over the
14   exact bulletin or policy or whatever it may be that was not
15   followed exactly, and to make the person understand and
16   agree with that policy, and then apply it as written.
17             So I did that for a long time.
18             And then I became the chief cramming officer at
19   the Flag Service Organization.  I did this correction type
20   of activities for auditors from level 0 to level 12, which
21   would be the highest level in what are called the Ls in
22   Scientology.  And I would do correction on all the auditors
23   as well as the case supervisors.
24        Q    Now, were you -- did you have -- in order to be a
25   supervisor or cramming officer for auditors and supervisors,



 

16
1   if I'm saying this right, did you have more training than
2   they had?
3        A    Not necessarily.  I certainly did not have more
4   training than the majority of the case supervisors that I
5   would do correction on.  And I did not train on the Ls,
6   which would be 10, 11 and 12, which are the highest levels
7   of -- of Scientology.  But I was like a class 9 auditor.
8        Q    At that time.
9        A    Yes.
10        Q    Did you ever get higher than that?
11        A    Yes.  I became a -- I was interned as an auditor,
12   certified as a class 9 auditor; certified as a
13   corrections -- a cramming officer, correction officer;
14   certified as a case supervisor for a class 9 as well.
15        Q    Okay.  And how high on the bridge did you go?
16        A    When I left, I had completed what's known in
17   Scientology as OT 7.
18        Q    Okay.  All right.  So have we covered your years
19   from '79 to '82 in Clearwater --
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    -- as what you did?
22        A    Yes.
23        Q    Okay.  What did you do after '82?
24        A    I was transferred -- well, in 1982, in the fall of
25   1982, I was transferred to work at the Scientology



 

17
1   International headquarters.  Of course I didn't know it was
2   that at the time.  But I was transferred to work at Golden
3   Era Productions, which is the movie production studio that
4   Scientology has in the desert at Gilman Hot Springs,
5   California.  I was transferred to work in the RTC as a
6   corrections specialist.
7        Q    And how long did you do that?
8        A    I probably did that from '82 -- for about a year
9   and a half.  I did that job for about a year and a half.
10   Maybe to 1985 and -- or maybe even '84.  Because after that,
11   I was promoted to a higher position; became the deputy
12   inspector general for the Religious Technology Center.
13        Q    And who appointed you to that position?
14        A    Vicki Aznaran appointed me to that position.  It
15   was approved by those that -- you know, the seniors above
16   that area, which was David Miscavige.
17        Q    Did Mr. Hubbard ever have any input in any of the
18   selections -- selecting you for any position?
19        A    In -- in as much as when I left here in Florida,
20   there was a -- a mission out to find the best supervisor,
21   best cramming officer in Scientology, and to bring that
22   person to international management, and correct
23   international management on its application of Scientology
24   policies.  A search was done in the organizations
25   internationally, and at the end of that -- the weeding-out



 

18
1   process, I guess my name came up as the person to fill that
2   job.  So he was informed that I had that job, and he
3   welcomed me to that job when I arrived in California.
4        Q    How did he -- Mr. Hubbard welcome you to that job?
5        A    He sent me a dispatch, a letter --
6        Q    Okay.
7        A    -- welcoming me.
8        Q    And what is the duties of the deputy inspector
9   general of RTC?
10        A    Well, this may take a while.
11             But as the deputy inspector general -- there's
12   only one position higher than that in the Scientology
13   ecclesiastical org board, which would have been inspector
14   general.
15             RTC licensed other Scientology corporations to use
16   the trademarks, a licensing agreement.  And RTC was
17   responsible, I believe -- maybe still is responsible -- for
18   ensuring the purity of application and delivery of
19   Scientology technology, auditing technology as well as
20   administrative policies.
21             And so because we licensed different corporations
22   such as the Church of Scientology International -- if you
23   had organizing chart you would have RTC, which would be
24   here; then you would have the mother church, which is the
25   Church of Scientology International, which is here.  The



 

19
1   mother church in turn then license other organizations, such
2   as the Flag Service Organization, AOSH EU, AOSH UK, and the
3   Los Angeles organization missions.  Whatever entities were
4   using the trademarks and copyrighted works of L. Ron
5   Hubbard, they were given a licensing agreement.
6             So in that regard, ultimately -- there's a very
7   strict policy in Scientology called Keeping Scientology
8   Working, where it's imperative that everything is done
9   exactly according to the policies and technical bulletins
10   written.  I was ultimately responsible to ensure that not
11   only the Church of Scientology International was making good
12   on its licensing agreements, but it was also enforcing it
13   down through other organizations to make sure that they were
14   adhering to their licensing agreement to apply Scientology
15   technology 100 percent standard.
16             You know, this is a -- a term that they use.
17             So I had that responsibility --
18             THE COURT:  Oh, just a second here.  We have --
19        I see Mr. Keane back there.
20             Mr. Keane, I hope you haven't been back there
21        long.
22             Let me just take --
23             Are you in with Judge Lenderman?
24             MR. KEANE:  I'm good until 1:29.
25             THE COURT:  I'm going to take a break.



 

20
1                (A recess was taken at 1:13 p.m.)
2           (The proceedings were resumed at 1:49 p.m.)
3             THE COURT:  Okay.  Let me see if I can make
4        some sense of this.
5             According to Mr. Keane, he says that early on
6        this witness list was indeed agreed to by everybody,
7        that everybody knew what it was, and that it was
8        called that, and that's the witness list he's been
9        working off of ever since.
10             MR. DANDAR:  The letter I was handed, that was
11        handed to you from Mr. Moxon to Mr. Keane, dated
12        December 14th, 2001 states, "This is the search
13        list."  And that's what's attached to his June 17th
14        order.  "I have also highlighted the same names on
15        the witness list referenced above so you can see
16        where they came from."
17             So the search list includes a lot more names
18        than what's on anyone's witness list.
19             THE COURT:  I don't know what you're talking
20        about.  I have no idea what you're reading from.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Mr. Moxon's letter
22        of December 14th, 2001.
23             THE COURT:  Now where you are reading on from
24        on this?
25             MR. DANDAR:  Bottom paragraph.



 

21
1             THE COURT:  Right.
2             MR. DANDAR:  He says this is the search list.
3             THE COURT:  Okay.
4             MR. DANDAR:  And he says that's the names from
5        which the search would be requested by defendants.
6        And he says, "I have also highlighted these same
7        names on the witness list referenced above."  And
8        the witness list referenced above are real witness
9        lists.  And I'm telling the court that the search
10        list includes more than the witness list.
11             THE COURT:  Well, this was sent, a copy of
12        this, to you.
13             MR. DANDAR:  That's what it says, yes.
14             THE COURT:  And then -- I don't know -- this is
15        additional witnesses that's attached to this --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Just one of the exhibits.  It
17        was just one of the exhibits.  The other exhibits --
18        I'm sorry, your Honor.  As indicated in the letter,
19        they were tabbed -- they were A through F tabs.  And
20        we just -- we didn't include for your purposes the
21        other tabs.  We can print it all out.  But this was
22        tabbed -- which one -- E.  This was tab E that we
23        attached, which had some of those additional names
24        that Mr. Dandar was complaining about back in the
25        back, when you and Mr. Dandar and I were with



 

22
1        Mr. McGowan earlier.
2             THE COURT:  And that's the one that has Kennan
3        Dandar, Thomas Dandar, Ray Emmons --
4             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
5             THE COURT:  -- Michael Garko, Thomas Haverty --
6             MR. DANDAR:  Patricia Greenway.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  So Mr. Keane is right.
8             So if that wasn't enough, on June 7th
9        Mr. Dandar wrote a letter to Mr. Keane.  And we
10        handed that up.  And among other things, he wanted
11        all videos of him produced by Mr. Keane.
12             THE COURT:  Well, it says, "I have also
13        included several additional witnesses who either
14        provided affidavits or deposition testimony or are
15        the subject of dispute as to whether or not they
16        should be required to give testimony."
17             What does that have to do with any judge's
18        order?  This is to be a judge's order.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Because --
20             THE COURT:  Said somebody on a witness list.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  What the October order of
22        Judge -- Judge Quesada went further -- because this
23        had been going on for a long time.  It was actually
24        a November order.  What Judge Quesada --
25             I can hand it up to you.  It's one of the



 

23
1        series of orders.
2             THE COURT:  All right.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  And it started in 2000 and this
4        was in 2000.
5             You go to -- you go to page 2, you'll see it
6        was expanded by Judge Quesada to include not only
7        people on the witness list, but any other person
8        reasonably identifiable as a witness to the facts in
9        this case.
10             THE COURT:  Well, you think that means the
11        lawyer?  Is that what you're telling me?
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, remember, after -- this
13        was a -- this was a living -- there was an argument
14        at some point by Mr. Dandar that -- or by
15        Mr. Merrett, I guess it was -- that this should be
16        limited to whenever the subpoena was originally
17        served.  And what the judge has ruled is that no,
18        you can't -- you know, this is a living thing here.
19             And by this time we had an affirmative defense
20        that ultimately became the counterclaim.  And as
21        witnesses to the affirmative defense, which is --
22        which is the -- the issues -- the ultimate issues in
23        the counterclaim, all of these people with regard
24        to, you know, Mr. Dandar, the people at the LMT --
25        those were all going to be witnesses and will be



 

24
1        witnesses to -- to that.  I mean, that's what this
2        hearing in part --
3             THE COURT:  Well, do you think that Judge
4        Quesada meant to include the lawyers and the
5        investigator when he signed this, saying, "Well, any
6        other person reasonably identified as a witness to
7        the facts in this case"?
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, I guess I can't get into
9        Judge Quesada's head.
10             THE COURT:  I guess.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  All I know is this was -- at the
12        time -- subsequently when this was being exchanged
13        between counsel, with Mr. Keane, all of this was put
14        in front of Mr. Keane.  Both sides had it.  And
15        Mr. Keane is right; that it was agreed to.
16             And if that wasn't enough, Mr. Dandar, just 10
17        days ago, wrote a letter to Mr. Keane saying that,
18        "During the inspection of the videos provided by the
19        LMT, we are requesting copies of the following
20        videos be provided to the estate."  And those
21        include all videos of Ken Dandar.  So -- among
22        others.
23             So it's obvious that his understanding was the
24        same as our understanding, which is the same as
25        Mr. Keane's understanding, that, among others, the



 

25
1        videos of the LMT that had to do with Mr. Dandar --
2        which couldn't have been privileged or work product,
3        even his testimony --
4             THE COURT:  The problem is, whether they're
5        privileged or whether they're not, no judge in this
6        circuit, including Judge Quesada, would want you to
7        have work product of another lawyer to give you an
8        advantage in this case.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  But it's not work product.  I
10        mean, work product has to have some --
11             THE COURT:  I don't care if he's talking to the
12        world.  Judge Quesada would not have wanted you to
13        have Mr. Dandar on tape telling anybody over at LMT,
14        "This is how I'm going to proceed with my lawsuit."
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, but that's our -- that is
16        our claim, that that's precisely what Mr. Dandar was
17        doing.  That is part of the claim.
18             THE COURT:  That is not -- has nothing to do
19        with the wrongful death.  This thing was filed --
20        this thing was signed back in November of 2000.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  That's correct.  We --
22             THE COURT:  You didn't file this thing --
23        this -- this motion back then.  This motion is a
24        very recent motion.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, which motion are we



 

26
1        talking about?
2             THE COURT:  The motion that is at hearing and
3        is at issue here.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  No, but what we had filed by
5        then -- and someone will correct me if I'm wrong --
6        is our -- is our defense, which -- our affirmative
7        defense, which started out being an affirmative
8        defense with regard to the allegations concerning
9        how the LMT had -- and Minton had taken control of
10        the litigation.  All that was there.  That was when
11        we -- when we -- that was our defense.
12             Ultimately in 2002, I guess it was, we
13        converted that -- or 2001, converted that into a
14        counterclaim which is before the court.  But I mean,
15        that started out -- that was one of our, you know,
16        primary defenses.
17             And that's how all this got going in 2000 with
18        all the litigation concerning the LMT.  Our position
19        was Mr. Minton had taken over the litigation; that
20        he was using the LMT to foster the litigation for
21        improper purpose, and -- and that in essence was
22        running the litigation and running Mr. Dandar.
23             THE COURT:  Well --
24             MR. DANDAR:  Judge --
25             THE COURT:  -- I don't care what some other



 

27
1        judge has done.  You are not getting Mr. Dandar's
2        notes; you are not getting Mr. Dandar's videos until
3        I see them; you are not getting Mr. Dandar's e-mails
4        beyond the hundreds of them that you've already
5        gotten, apparently; you are not getting any of that
6        stuff until I see it and make sure that it has --
7        there's some reason why the opposition ought to have
8        it.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Well, just for the
10        record, if I can, first of all, we have everything
11        that we have --
12             THE COURT:  Well, for the record, did you see
13        this additional list?
14             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I can't stand here and tell
15        you that I did.  I can't stand --
16             THE COURT:  Well, can you tell me that you did
17        not or you just don't have a clue?
18             MR. DANDAR:  I have no clue if I ever got this
19        letter.
20             THE COURT:  But you saw it and you said what
21        you said to me in chambers.
22             Why didn't you bring this to my attention a
23        long time ago?
24             MR. DANDAR:  It appears to me I would have done
25        that had I saw my name and my investigators, several



 

28
1        of them, and trial consultants on here, like Brian
2        Haney, Patricia Greenway, Michael Garko, Ray Emmons,
3        Tom Dandar, Ken Dandar -- I would have objected to
4        that.  Ursula Caberta -- my God, she's a government
5        official that has nothing to do with this case
6        whatsoever.
7             And Judge Beach even modified Judge Quesada's
8        order and narrowed it down and said -- I recall this
9        because Mr. Moxon and I were at one of these
10        hearings with Judge Beach.  He said Judge Quesada
11        said, "The facts of this case, Lisa McPherson case."
12        And he said, "You will not get any other person
13        unless they are a witness to the Lisa McPherson
14        death."
15             MR. WEINBERG:  I just don't see how Mr. Dandar
16        can say that, you know.  Every --
17             MR. DANDAR:  And I will produce --
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Every time we produce a document
19        that has his name on it, he says, "Well, I don't
20        have it.  I can't find it.  I didn't get it."
21             THE COURT:  No, he didn't say whether he did or
22        he didn't.  He said he doesn't know.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, you know, he -- he did.
24             THE COURT:  Well, you don't know whether he did
25        or he didn't either.  For all you know it's sitting



 

29
1        over there on his desk.  You all have about ten
2        lawyers.  He's alone.  His mail could be unopened.
3        That's not your fault.  But you don't know whether
4        he's seen it or whether he hasn't.
5             MR. DANDAR:  I know that we sent it to him.
6             THE COURT:  All right.
7             MR. WIENBERG:  And I know that the practice is,
8        in addition to sending it, is to fax it.  And that's
9        the practice on both sides.  But I'm also concerned
10        about --
11             THE COURT:  Who is Thomas Haverty?
12             MR. DANDAR:  That's my investigator.
13             THE COURT:  And why was it that you thought
14        that he might be a -- reasonably a fact witness so
15        you could have his information?
16             MR. MOXON:  I can respond to that, your Honor.
17
18             Mr. Haverty is someone -- remember he did this
19        whole thing with the roach experiment?  He organized
20        and actually pulled this experiment with the
21        roaches.  And that was one of the videos you may
22        have seen during the Frye hearings, was
23        Mr. Haverty --
24             THE COURT:  Well, I don't see it here limited
25        to anything dealing with roaches.  This is a law



 

30
1        firm's investigator.  You said, "Give me
2        everything," and said Mr. Dandar said it was okay,
3        anything -- any e-mail, any video, any anything --
4             MR. MOXON:  I didn't --
5             THE COURT:  -- that's investigated.
6             MR. MOXON:  I didn't finish my answer, your
7        Honor.
8             THE COURT:  All right.
9             MR. MOXON:  Mr. Haverty was also seen many
10        times at LMT.  This goes very directly to Mr. Dandar
11        using LMT, using it through Mr. Haverty.
12        Mr. Haverty once accosted me outside the church.  He
13        ran out of LMT and accosted me personally.  He was
14        seen in other cities tailing and taking photographs,
15        for example, of Mr. Lieberman and other attorneys
16        who were at a deposition.
17             Mr. Haverty also was -- has custody of the
18        Jeep.  He -- somehow he was able to get custody of
19        the Jeep used in this accident.
20             THE COURT:  What Jeep?
21             MR. MOXON:  Lisa McPherson's Jeep that was
22        involved in the accident.  So we definitely want to
23        question him about that, because the Jeep has
24        apparently been damaged and had other things happen
25        to it in the meantime.



 

31
1             So Mr. Haverty has been involved in a number of
2        those issues.
3             But the thing I was most concerned about
4        obviously with the LMT, was using Mr. Haverty, as
5        with other agents through LMT, to have some effect
6        on this case.
7             THE COURT:  All right.
8             MR. MOXON:  That's why he was on there.
9             THE COURT:  This -- I find this almost beyond
10        belief that you, Mr. Dandar -- if you -- if you have
11        this in your office --
12             MR. DANDAR:  We're checking now.
13             THE COURT:  -- that you didn't bring this to my
14        attention and object to it and object to it
15        strenuously.  Then we could have had this argument.
16        Unfortunately, Mr. Keane says this was all agreed to
17        by everybody.  And therefore, this list is the
18        list -- the list that is attached to his Interim
19        Report of Special Master to Examine LMT Records and
20        Preserving Records.  This is what he calls a search
21        list, Exhibit A, which has a huge number of people
22        on it.  A huge number of people.  Some of whom are
23        Michael Garko, Patricia Greenway, Thomas Haverty,
24        Kennan Dandar, Thomas Dandar -- I have no idea what
25        he knows about this case -- Ray Emmons --



 

32
1             Did you tell me he was one of --
2             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
3             THE COURT:  What is he?
4             MR. DANDAR:  An investigator.
5             THE COURT:  Michael Garko, I know, is an
6        investigator.
7             MR. DANDAR:  Trial consultant.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  No, no.  He's a trial
9        consultant.
10             THE COURT:  Trial consultant.  Okay.
11             Anyway, it goes on and on.  I don't know who
12        all is on here.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, a lot of them are church
14        witnesses.  That's a consolidation of -- of
15        witnesses --
16             THE COURT:  I'm talking about those that I
17        might have expected if Mr. Dandar was raising what
18        he was raising in my --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Oh.
20             THE COURT:  -- in my chambers, he would have
21        raised.  Those are the witnesses I was assuming --
22             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm sorry.
23             THE COURT:  -- he would have objected to.
24             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
25             THE COURT:  So I mean, you got this letter,



 

33
1        Mr. Keane's been operating off of this since this
2        process started.  And you know, I don't know what to
3        tell you.  You can't keep up with what's going on in
4        your office, then you need to get off the case.  If
5        you got this and you have an objection and you were
6        letting this go on, you can't expect me to come in
7        and save your bacon or save the day --
8             MR. DANDAR:  If --
9             THE COURT:  -- you know.  So -- so now you're
10        all upset and -- and Mr. Keane says, "Well, gee,
11        I've been operating under this from the very
12        beginning."
13             MR. DANDAR:  It's only very few of the people
14        that we're objecting to on that search list.  And
15        the fact that it hasn't been turned over yet, I
16        think --
17             THE COURT:  He's got hundreds of documents that
18        have been turned over.  As a matter of fact I've got
19        here copies for you of what has been turned over
20        last night.
21             And no, Mr. Keane isn't making copies.  He's
22        going on the assumption that there's an order that
23        says that these things are to be turned over.  He
24        says he got together with all the lawyers, including
25        you, including Mr. Merrett, including Mr. Moxon or I



 

34
1        don't know who all over there, and they -- he said
2        he tried to get his arms around it and said, "Let's
3        decide how we're going to do this."  And then, as
4        things started showing up and it appeared that it
5        matched the order that the judge required, he was
6        giving it over to LMT's lawyer to see whether or not
7        he was claiming a privilege of any sort.  And if so,
8        those are kept separate and those are going to be
9        turned over to me.
10             And if, in fact, there was no privilege claim,
11        he was calling Mr. Moxon -- who, by the way, both
12        sides seem to say knew before they knew that the
13        documents were there -- and Mr. Moxon was right
14        there instantly, wanting them, and everything was
15        turned over, because it complied with the court
16        order.
17             Now, he was not making copies for you.
18        Apparently they're there.  If you want them, you can
19        have them.  If you don't have the time to go get
20        them, what is it I'm supposed to do for you?
21             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I don't think you could
22        expect me to expect that the LMT, for instance, had
23        a e-mail of some sort from me to Mr. Young from
24        April of '98 before the LMT was ever even formed.
25             THE COURT:  No, I couldn't expect that.  But



 

35
1        obviously, they do.  And obviously, they probably
2        have a lot of other stuff.  I don't know what they
3        have.  But what I suggest you do is get yourself or
4        get somebody else over to Mr. Keane's office and see
5        what it is you want.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Has Mr. Keane told you that they
7        already produced these videos of me and my
8        investigators?
9             THE COURT:  No.  The videos, I stopped the
10        videos myself and said that none of them would be
11        turned over until I went through and decided whether
12        to turn them over, and that's what I'm -- I'm going
13        to take care of that this afternoon.
14             I can't help you with these.  Here's your copy.
15        That's what was turned over.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Ours back?
17             THE COURT:  Well, let me look in them and see
18        if this is the same thing.  I never did compare
19        them.  I'm just assuming --
20             Mr. Keane -- and I also entered an oral verbal
21        order to Mr. Keane that he is to produce nothing to
22        you that has Mr. Dandar, from or to, until such time
23        as I review it and decide whether or not you should
24        get it.
25             And frankly --



 

36
1             MR. WEINBERG:  The top thing should just be
2        what you just turned over, probably, and the other
3        ones are copies.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.
5             MR. MOXON:  There's a smaller packet too, your
6        Honor, a few other pages.
7             THE COURT:  Maybe you can help me, this Text
8        Fragments --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  Maybe Mr. Moxon --
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  I haven't looked at those.
12             THE COURT:  Are these all the same things,
13        copies?
14             MR. MOXON:  The big ones are all -- this is
15        different, the small one, your Honor.  This is
16        different.  There's two of these.  I just made extra
17        copies is all.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.  What I have right here, Text
19        Fragments, is the same as this.  That's what I just
20        gave him a copy of.  I'll keep a copy of it.  For
21        what, I don't know.  I'll just go through it and
22        see.
23             You may have these back.
24             Those have been turned over, pursuant to
25        what --



 

37
1             MR. MOXON:  And this smaller --
2             THE COURT:  This smaller packet.
3             MR. MOXON:  I only have two of those.
4             THE COURT:  Wait a minute now.  Let me see.  I
5        think here's another one --
6             Is this it?
7             MR. MOXON:  I guess that's both of them.  That
8        must be both.
9             Okay.  I see that's probably the small one and
10        large.
11             THE COURT:  It is?
12             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, let's be sure.
14             MR. MOXON:  May I?
15             THE COURT:  Yes.
16             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.  Text Fragments.
17             THE COURT:  That look like this?
18             Okay.  You've got that, you can take that then.
19        I'm going to give Mr. Dandar a copy of this then.
20        Apparently that's a copy --
21             And I'll have this.  And --
22             But I believe there are other documents, many
23        other documents that have been turned over.
24             MR. MOXON:  There's a large binder, which is
25        just single lines with a name on them, just an



 

38
1        Internet name, but they're -- those are the
2        documents from which these can be printed out.  But
3        it's literally one binder with a listing of 30,000
4        different documents.  And I'll give that back.
5        Mr. Keane said, "Look through this.  If there's
6        anything else that you feel is appropriate that you
7        want to -- to have the computer expert print off,
8        you can mark it and we'll give it back to the
9        computer fellow."  But I haven't done anything with
10        that.
11             THE COURT:  Mr. Keane seemed to imply that
12        whatever it was, up till recently, was stuff that
13        probably had very little if anything to do with
14        anything.
15             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
16             THE COURT:  But -- for example, he asked --
17        said you asked him to do a search, or whoever it is
18        that does this --
19             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
20             THE COURT:  -- for anything that had "Ken
21        Dandar," and he said so that would be, then -- I
22        guess.  I don't know if this is it or if that's to
23        be forthcoming.
24             MR. MOXON:  No, this is it.  That's in that
25        huge binder.  There were a few that were



 

39
1        communications from LMT that obviously were cc'ed to
2        Mr. Dandar.  Looked very, very suspicious, and
3        appeared to us to be that Mr. Dandar's testimony was
4        inaccurate that he hasn't been coordinating things
5        with LMT.
6             In fact there's -- one of these --
7             THE COURT:  So -- so this little packet right
8        here is the packet that deals with the search for
9        "Mr. Dandar."
10             MR. MOXON:  That's all --
11             THE COURT:  So this is it.
12             MR. MOXON:  Yeah.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, I'll -- I'll take a
14        look at it and see what it is.  But they've got it
15        and --
16             MR. DANDAR:  How can -- I can't waive my
17        privilege just because they got it and someone got
18        it -- into the LMT computers by some means without
19        my consent at all.  I mean, this -- this thing --
20        this e-mail they produced this morning with Vaughn
21        Young and I, that was never part of the LMT.  Young
22        said he erased it; his wife, who was divorcing him
23        at that time, didn't have access to his hard drive.
24        Yet it shows up mysteriously on an LMT hard drive.
25             THE COURT:  Well, Mr. Keane says these hard



 

40
1        drives showed up mysteriously.  All this is coming
2        off of hard drives that mysteriously showed up.
3        From somewhere.  He doesn't even know where.
4             MR. DANDAR:  But it doesn't give the defense
5        the right to work product even if it -- if it shows
6        up there by a third party.  When you see work
7        product from an attorney, you're supposed to stop
8        and turn it back over to the attorney, not keep it,
9        and especially mark it and introduce it as evidence
10        in the case.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that work product, you
12        waived.  You should have turned it over back when
13        Mr. Young was deposed in -- in 1999.
14             MR. DANDAR:  I don't keep copies of e-mails.
15        And Mr. Young said he erased his hard drive in '98
16        so certainly couldn't produce it.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  No, but you can't call it work
18        product.
19             THE COURT:  That's true.
20             MR. DANDAR:  What's true --
21             THE COURT:  But in any --
22             MR. DANDAR:  -- Judge?
23             THE COURT:  Well, what's true is that if you
24        were asked to produce everything you had that you
25        had sent to an expert, you had identified Mr. Young



 

41
1        as an expert.  And had you saved this, then it
2        should have been produced.
3             MR. DANDAR:  If I saved it.  I don't save
4        e-mails.
5             THE COURT:  Well, somebody -- somehow or
6        another they got it.  So I don't know how they got
7        it.
8             MR. DANDAR:  But the fact --
9             THE COURT:  But they didn't do it -- they got
10        it apparently from Mr. Keane, who was appointed by
11        the court.  And now I've told Mr. Keane that he is
12        to stop producing anything that has your name on it,
13        from you or to you.  Not -- I mean, he's got a lot
14        of these postings.  You know, these postings --
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Yeah.
16             THE COURT:  -- all -- whatever.  I said I
17        didn't care about any of those postings.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't care about postings
19        either.
20             THE COURT:  Right.
21             MR. WEINBERG:  But --
22             THE COURT:  And I'm not saying I'm not going to
23        turn them all over.  What I'm saying is I asked him
24        not to turn them over until I had a chance to look
25        at them.



 

42
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  And that's fine with us.
2        But our position is we should get it.
3             Now, one other point.  I had handed -- I think
4        you have this, but I've handed this up, which was
5        the letter that Mr. Dandar sent to Mr. Keane, copied
6        to me and Mr. Moxon just 10 days ago.  And this is
7        the letter where he instructs Mr. Keane to provide
8        copies, when he's going through these videos of the
9        Lisa McPherson Trust, which is what he's been doing,
10        to provide all the videos of Ken Dandar.
11             So you know, I mean, he can now say that --
12        that he doesn't understand how Mr. Keane would be
13        turning over videos of Ken Dandar, but -- but he
14        asked Mr. Keane to do this.
15             THE COURT:  I -- I can see that.
16             Again, I -- I am concerned, as any judge would
17        be concerned who still has a trial date that is set,
18        when I don't know what's being turned over from a
19        lawyer.  And the thing that I saw this morning, yes,
20        perhaps he's a listed witness and perhaps that's one
21        of those things that you should have gotten.  Well,
22        I don't know what's in all these other things.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't have a problem with you
24        looking -- I mean, I just want to make sure that, A,
25        the record is clear that this isn't something that



 

43
1        Mr. Keane just invented out of the blue --
2             THE COURT:  Mr. Keane did not invent this out
3        of the blue.  I never thought he had.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  I know.
5             THE COURT:  I thought, for example, that he
6        would probably have been making copies of anything
7        he was turning over.  And yet what he indicated is
8        that it was ordered to be turned over.  And I think
9        he's probably right.
10             And he says that he has extended to Mr. Dandar
11        and to the church to come -- if it's not privileged,
12        he's going to turn it over.  If he doesn't, he's not
13        going to make copies of thousand and thousands of
14        documents to give to both sides.  So it's come see
15        if you want it.  If you want it --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  And if --
17             THE COURT:  -- I'll make you a copy of it.
18             So you're going to have to go do that.
19             Now, he said he understood since these were at
20        issue, he went ahead and made copies, so --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  And did -- I'm sorry, your
22        Honor.  If the videos aren't privileged -- I mean, I
23        don't know what's on the videos either.  But it's
24        curious that Mark Bunker, who is not a trial
25        consultant or an employee of Mr. Dandar, would have



 

44
1        video of Mr. Dandar wherever it is at the LMT.  You
2        know, I can't remember what you said -- I don't
3        think you even said what the -- what the videos of
4        Mr. Dandar were.
5             THE COURT:  No, I didn't.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  But to the extent that those
7        videos indicate that Mr. Dandar was doing that which
8        he testified under oath that he wasn't doing, then,
9        you know, I think that they're very relevant.
10             THE COURT:  I think most of them were -- well,
11        we'll go through those in a minute.  But I think
12        most of them were -- were Lisa McPherson vigils,
13        slash, pickets, whatever.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, if he was picketing -- if
15        there were pictures of him picketing, that would
16        obviously be, given his testimony, very relevant.
17             MR. DANDAR:  I'd love to see it too, because I
18        know they were just vigils.
19             THE COURT:  The truth of the matter is,
20        Mr. Dandar -- the truth of the matter is, a lawyer
21        for the estate of Lisa McPherson ought not have been
22        to -- been at anything that could have even closely
23        been called a picket.  You like to say they're a
24        vigil.
25             MR. DANDAR:  They are.



 

45
1             THE COURT:  There are plenty of other people in
2        this courtroom who have called them pickets.  As a
3        lawyer, I would expect you to stay away from
4        something that might later be called a picket where
5        a lawyer is present.  It is in very poor taste.
6             So there you have it.
7             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
8             THE COURT:  Now you have this.  If you have any
9        objection to them using any of it, you better read
10        these tonight.  You know, you all send me home with
11        stacks and stacks and stacks of stuff to read that I
12        read until all hours of the morning.  So you've got
13        until tomorrow morning to tell them what you object
14        to their using out of this, and to tell me.
15        Otherwise they've got it, you've got it, I've got
16        it, they can use it, you're on notice of it, and
17        they'll use it wherever they think it has relevance.
18             If you have an objection to it, let me know.
19        We'll deal with it.  If I think that they shouldn't
20        have it, I'll ask for it back.  That's the best I
21        can do.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  It's not inappropriate for me to
23        review them as well, tonight.
24             THE COURT:  Oh, absolutely not.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  I just wanted to



 

46
1        make sure.  Because I have not looked at them.
2             THE COURT:  No.  You know, I just hope, as an
3        officer of the court, if you start to read something
4        that looks like it has to do with just the Lisa
5        McPherson wrongful death case and it's talking about
6        his theory and how he plans to prove something --
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, if it's an e-mail to
8        Teresa Summers or something like that, you know,
9        who's a witness in the case, and he's already
10        testified that there was no such communication, then
11        I would --
12             THE COURT:  If it's an e-mail to one of his
13        consultants I would hope that you would put it down
14        until such time as I have a chance to tell you
15        whether you can have it or not.
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.  Okay.
17             THE COURT:  Now, then, I suppose since we've
18        talked about these things --
19             Madam Clerk, I'm going to make this an exhibit.
20        This is not an exhibit to -- this really isn't even
21        a part of this hearing.  Well, I suppose it could
22        be.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  I'll just make it a court
24        exhibit, you know, like you've been doing.
25             THE COURT:  All right.  I'm going to make this



 

47
1        letter from Dandar and Dandar to Mr. Keane and this
2        letter from Mr. Moxon to Mr. Keane a court's
3        exhibit.
4             I'm going to eventually give you, Madam Clerk,
5        a copy of these Text Fragments, that, in the
6        meantime, I'll try to read them tonight.  And I'll
7        keep them until such time as I see if there's any
8        objection, okay?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
10             THE COURT:  This other packet -- I don't even
11        know what it is, but I will look through it too.  If
12        I have the time.  You know, there are just so many
13        hours in the day.  And if I have the time I'll look
14        through it.  If I won't -- don't, I'll look through
15        whatever it is you ask me to look through tomorrow
16        morning.
17             Now, this latest -- this is -- the latest thing
18        that has been provided to me is an order by Judge
19        Quesada, dated November 20th of 2000.  If you tell
20        me that there's some later order by Judge Beach, you
21        better get it and you better provide it to me.
22             MR. DANDAR:  I will.
23             THE COURT:  Madam Clerk, this is another part
24        of the court's exhibit.  Otherwise I will assume
25        that that is the order, the latest order, the one



 

48
1        that we're dealing with.  I don't want either side
2        suggesting to Mr. Keane anybody else that they think
3        perhaps should have been on the list now or later.
4        Everybody understand that?
5             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, your Honor.
7             THE COURT:  If there's going to be anybody else
8        requested to Mr. Keane by anybody that you all think
9        might be a witness, you ask me and I'll tell
10        Mr. Keane whether that's appropriate.
11             Did I give you this, Madam Clerk?  I think I
12        did.  Did I give you that?
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Do you want the orders that led
14        up to that last order or not?
15             THE COURT:  No.  I really think the latest
16        order -- because I remember they kept getting
17        changed a little bit.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  And I have copies of
19        them if you want.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, maybe go ahead and put
21        them all in.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  This is May 15th, 2000 Judge
23        Moody order, and this is a July 18th, 2000 Judge
24        Moody order.
25             THE COURT:  I think one of the things that



 

49
1        concerns me, one of the things that I saw happening
2        in this case, is that I would see --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Those are the other two that
4        lead up to the last -- the one on top was the
5        earliest, I think.
6             THE COURT:  I'm just going to have the clerk
7        put them in order.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
9             THE COURT:  Put them in chronological order.
10             What you can't do is make somebody a witness by
11        adding them to your witness list.  Both sides
12        understand that?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
14             THE COURT:  You can't just say, "Gee, I wish --
15        you know, this person isn't really a witness, and if
16        they were a witness, they'd be a witness for the
17        other side, but maybe I can get some information
18        here by adding them to my witness list, and I think
19        I'll do that, and then tell Mr. Keane to give me
20        that information."  Don't do it.  That isn't fair.
21        That isn't what this was all meant to be.
22             Okay.  Now, on these videos, I've gone
23        through -- Mr. Keane tells me he's going to give me
24        an amended list, because they're not all here.  He
25        found 39 more.



 

50
1             I have gone through this document until some
2        ungodly hour this morning.  I have no idea how many
3        pages this is.  25, maybe?  I'm just guessing -- and
4        wrote down "yes" or "no" as far as what should be
5        produced based on what I presume the order was.  And
6        when in doubt, I left it blank.  And that's what I
7        spoke with the lawyers about, including counsel for
8        LMT and counsel -- it was the same counsel -- for
9        the videographer.  His name is --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. Bunker.
11             THE COURT:  Mr. Bunker.  And so he was present
12        as well.  I think he was.
13             And I filled in all these blanks.  So I have
14        all these blanks filled in.
15             And Mr. Dandar, that was when we first began.
16        He said he didn't know that any video was going to
17        be produced that he was in.  And now, Mr. Dandar, I
18        see your letter which tells me that clearly isn't
19        true.
20             MR. DANDAR:  No.  Judge, I asked him to give me
21        a copy of any video that I'm in.  I didn't ask him
22        to send it to the defense.  I mean, I don't have
23        possession of these videos.  I don't know what the
24        LMT has.  So that's why I asked Mr. Keane to send me
25        a video if I'm in -- if it's a video of me or of my



 

51
1        clients.
2             THE COURT:  Well, I thought the court had given
3        him those videos, and the court had said -- what you
4        just talked -- you know --
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, that doesn't make any
6        sense --
7             THE COURT:  No, it doesn't make a bit of sense.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  -- to send him also copies of
9        Teresa Summers, Jesse Prince and, you know, four
10        others witnesses so you were going to get copies of
11        those and we weren't going to get them.
12             MR. DANDAR:  No.  Oh.  Let me make it very
13        clear.  I'm asking -- that letter says, "Send me the
14        copy of all the videos of all these people,
15        including myself."  I expect, as the court orders in
16        writing say, they're only entitled to get witnesses.
17        That's all they're entitled to.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Well --
19             MR. DANDAR:  I'm not a witness, but I wanted
20        Mr. --
21             THE COURT:  Oh, you are a witness to the
22        counterclaim.  Don't kid yourself.  You're a major
23        witness.  And that's why I indicated to you you
24        could not be a lawyer on the counterclaim.  You are
25        a major witness in the counterclaim, Mr. Dandar.



 

52
1        And that's what most of this is all about.  So you
2        know, quite frankly, to suggest that you're not a
3        witness is amazing to me.  You are not a witness, it
4        is true, in the wrongful death case.  You are a
5        major witness in the counterclaim.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  All right.
7             THE COURT:  So -- and for some of these things,
8        obviously, they weren't -- it wasn't distinguished
9        as to whether or not it had to do with the wrongful
10        death or whether it had to do with the counterclaim.
11             So I'm going to look through here and have you
12        tell me, Mr. Dandar, on any of these that I've got,
13        that I'm going to produce where you're in them,
14        which I believe is every one that you were in,
15        because you were on this list that Mr. Keane had
16        attached, which I assumed everybody had agreed to
17        and which he says he thought everybody did agree to.
18             And I want you to go back to your office
19        tonight and I want you to see whether or not you
20        have that letter.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  We -- we are -- we called
22        the office to look for it right now, but I will go
23        back and make sure.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  I hate to take the time
25        to do this, but I just -- if I don't, it'll just be



 

53
1        one more thing piled on top of another thing.  So
2        I'm going to do it and I'm going to do it now.
3             Ms. Giardini, by the way, is one of the ones
4        whose videotapes you asked for, and she is not
5        listed as a witness.
6             MR. DANDAR:  That's right.  I did.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  I think she's on Mr. Dandar's
8        witness list.
9             THE COURT:  She is not on Exhibit A.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  No, she's not --
11             THE COURT:  The one that you agreed to.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Right, but I mean in the letter,
13        he asked Mr. Keane to send him a copy of all the
14        videos on her.
15             THE COURT:  I have already told him, and I
16        presume that you all know as well, isn't anybody
17        going to get any of these videos unless I release
18        them.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  We absolutely understand that.
20             THE COURT:  So I don't care what he's asked for
21        and I don't care what you all have asked for.  I'm
22        going to tell you what you're going to get --
23             And Mr. Dandar, this is one of those other
24        things.  I'm going to -- Ms. Giardini's videos --
25        isn't a witness listed on this exhibit list.



 

54
1        Therefore I did not order any videos that had her in
2        it released.
3             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.
4             THE COURT:  So you don't get them.
5             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.  That's fine, Judge.
6             THE COURT:  Because I'm working -- and please
7        understand this, people -- I am working off this
8        list that Michael Keane says you all agreed to.  So
9        that's the list.  Not some -- I don't want to hear
10        later, "Oh, well, look, they're on this witness list
11        because that's what Mr. Keane said."  There was a
12        huge bunch of witnesses.  You all culled it down and
13        came up with this, and that's the list I'm operating
14        under.  Which, of course, this list includes you,
15        Mr. Dandar, and your brother and your investigator.
16             I'm looking for a second time because I don't
17        want to miss anything here.
18             All I'm looking for are videos now --
19             I made a decision on every one of these, and
20        I'm going -- and every one that had you in it,
21        Mr. Dandar, I ordered turned over, I think.  So I'm
22        going to tell you what those are so you can tell me
23        if you have an objection.  Like I said, I thought
24        there were about five.  We'll see how close I was.
25             I guess what you want me to do, probably, based



 

55
1        on some of what we talked about in chambers, is --
2        is to have Mr. Keane reproduce, if he can, those
3        which I have ordered released.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
5             THE COURT:  And with this little synopsis --
6        because I'm looking at like eight in a row, news
7        clips, you know, Channel 13 news clip --
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
9             THE COURT:  -- Channel 13 news clip; ABC, 28 --
10             MR. WEINBERG:  And I suspect we don't want any
11        of those copied, but if you are able to do a
12        redacted list that takes out what you don't want us
13        to look at --
14             THE COURT:  Right.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  -- that would helpful -- that
16        would be helpful to --
17             THE COURT:  Well, I'm hoping that this is on a
18        computer and he knows how to do that --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  I think it is.
20             THE COURT:  -- and he would be able to do it.
21        I have no clue.
22             Okay.  Now here is the first one.  And it is
23        box 2, tape 6, December, 1999, Clearwater, Florida.
24        Synopsis -- under Synopsis -- by the way,
25        Clearwater, Florida, is the locale.  And it's got



 

56
1        one, two, three, five columns.  First column is tape
2        number.  Second column is time frame.  Third column
3        locale.  Fourth column, synopsis.  And then fifth
4        column, people identified in footage.
5             This is, again, box 2 tape, 6 December, 1999,
6        Clearwater, Florida.  The synopsis says, "Cult
7        Workshop."  And here's who's identified.  People
8        identified in footage:  Gabe Cazares, Grady Ward,
9        Ken Dandar, Jesse Prince, Steve Hassan, Jeff
10        Jacobsen, Gerry Armstrong, Peter Alexander, David
11        Cecere, Deana Holmes, Michael Garko, Velma Cazares,
12        Brian Haney, Ed Lottick and Stacy and Jay Brooks.
13             I don't know who Jay Brooks is, but --
14             THE WITNESS:  That's her mother.
15             THE COURT:  And Jay Brooks -- now there are a
16        lot of people who are witnesses.  I had "release" on
17        it.
18             MR. DANDAR:  This is a -- as I remember, was a
19        workshop that was private and was not open to the
20        public.  Scientology was having a workshop right
21        next door.  And you know, that would be a workshop
22        that remained private.  And I don't think the
23        defense should have that.
24             THE COURT:  Well, some judge apparently said
25        that they were entitled to statements of any



 

57
1        witnesses.  And so these are witnesses.  There are a
2        lot of witnesses in there.
3             The only question is as to whether or not --
4             I'll tell you what.  I'll view this to see what
5        it is that you would have said in there.
6             But -- but the truth of the matter is -- is
7        that -- I don't know what you're doing there, but --
8             MR. WEINBERG:  And just for the record, there's
9        obviously no privilege.
10             THE COURT:  No.  There could be no privilege.
11             MR. DANDAR:  I believe the group -- the group
12        could have a privacy privilege, Judge.
13             THE COURT:  I'm -- we're past that.  A judge
14        has ordered it released.
15             MR. DANDAR:  No, no.  The witness statements, I
16        understand.  I understand that.
17             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, these are statements
18        of these witnesses.  Presumably.
19             MR. DANDAR:  And I will find Judge Beach's
20        order, which I believe limits it to discussing the
21        Lisa McPherson case.
22             THE COURT:  Well, if you can find that, then
23        there's probably a lot of these that I'm going to
24        release, that, you know, wouldn't be relevant.
25             I think you all decided that any of this stuff



 

58
1        that dealt with the -- the trial in front of Judge
2        Penick, you did not want, right?
3             MR. WEINBERG:  We don't want that.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  Any --
6             THE COURT:  Here's one, Lisa McPherson Memorial
7        picket in front of the Ft. Harrison.  You see,
8        here's a general master.  You see what he's calling
9        this?  A memorial picket.
10             MR. DANDAR:  It may in fact be a picket.  There
11        was a picket in the daytime.
12             THE COURT:  Well, if it is, it's got Mr. Dandar
13        in it.
14             MR. DANDAR:  Well, that's --
15             THE COURT:  So the deal is -- like I told you,
16        Mr. Dandar, it was poor judgment.  So I don't know
17        what in the world -- why you wouldn't -- why you
18        would have an objection to that.  That's a picket.
19        A picket is done out in the community so people can
20        see you.
21             MR. DANDAR:  I have no --
22             THE COURT:  If it's a --
23             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
24             THE COURT:  All right.  Then that one will be
25        turned over.



 

59
1             MR. DANDAR:  What box and tape number, please?
2             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 12.  It says December,
3        2000, Clearwater, Florida.  The synopsis, "Lisa
4        McPherson Memorial Picket in front of the Ft.
5        Harrison."  And it's got more people in it than you
6        can shake a stick at, including you, including
7        Mr. Garko, John Merrett, Patricia Greenway, Peter
8        Alexander, on and on.  Arnie Lerma, Robert Minton,
9        Ben Shaw, Frank Oliver, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince,
10        Jeff Jacobsen, Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson, Lee
11        Skelton, Rod Keller -- there's a whole bunch that I
12        haven't read.  I mean, there's just a lot of people.
13             But pickets, I'm turning over, people who
14        picket want people to see them.  So they can't very
15        well complain now.
16             Here is one that is styled box 2, tape 16,
17        unidentified.  That's the time frame.  Clearwater,
18        Florida.  Synopsis, "Celebrating the purchase of LMT
19        building; picketing."  And it's got the semicolon in
20        between "building" and "picketing."
21             Robert Minton, Scott Grouer, Ken Dandar,
22        Michael Garko, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Dee
23        Phillips, Ray Emmons, Peter Alexander, Patricia
24        Greenway, Grady Ward, Deneen Phillips, Duncan
25        Pierce, Mike Rinder -- I don't know whether that's



 

60
1        the Mike Rinder that we've referred to here, because
2        it's R-e-n-d-e-r, so -- and Paul Kellerhals.
3             MR. DANDAR:  I think they were outside.
4             THE COURT:  Okay.  So you -- you have no
5        problem with that.
6             MR. DANDAR:  No problem.
7             THE COURT:  All right.
8             MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry.  Would you repeat the
9        tape and box number?
10             MR. WEINBERG:  Box 2 --
11             THE COURT:  -- tape 16.
12             MR. DANDAR:  Thank you.
13             THE COURT:  Sir, if you want to get off the
14        stand while we're just fooling with this, you're
15        welcome to.  You don't have to sit there.  You can
16        if you want to but you don't have to.
17             THE WITNESS:  Well, I'm settled now, your
18        Honor.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  You --
20             MR. WEINBERG:  As you're going through that
21        list, we're not interested in any of those, whether
22        it's Judge Penick -- or I forget all the other
23        judges.  We're not interested in any of those --
24             THE COURT:  All I'm trying to do is in my list
25        release or not.  So the only ones --



 

61
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
2             THE COURT:  So if I put "release" --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Just leave it the way it is.
4             THE COURT:  Right.
5             MR. WEINBERG:  If we get --
6             THE COURT:  There are a few I had blank you and
7        I had a chance to talk about, and you and I and
8        Mr. Dandar and --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  Mr. McGowan.
10             THE COURT:  -- and Mr. McGowan.  But the ones
11        that I said "release --"
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
13             THE COURT:  I'll have them give them to you.
14             I don't remember what we decided to do with
15        this interview with former Clearwater Police
16        lieutenant Ray Emmons.  I have a question mark.  Did
17        we decide a question mark -- I didn't put question
18        marks when I went through these.  So what did we
19        decide on these?
20             MR. DANDAR:  He's not a testifying witness.  He
21        was a private investigator for LMT, and sometimes he
22        served process for me.  And I'm sure that has to do
23        with his investigation of Scientology back in the
24        '80s.  They want that, they can have it.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.



 

62
1             THE COURT:  You want it?
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes, your Honor.
3             MR. FUGATE:  I think it was included in an
4        LMT-produced video about the Clearwater Police
5        Department, if that's the one I'm thinking it is,
6        Judge.
7             THE COURT:  Okay.
8             Oh, here's one I almost missed it.  This is
9        scenes from -- this is box 2, tape 52, which appears
10        to be a very -- there's a lot of stuff going on in
11        this.  It says, "Scenes from outside the courtroom
12        in the Lisa McPherson probate hearing," and, "Scenes
13        from LMT," and, "Picketing the Church of
14        Scientology."  That's got Patricia Greenway, Robert
15        Minton, Peter Alexander, Grady Ward, Paul
16        Kellerhals, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Al Butnor,
17        Al Rosen, Marty Rathbun and Ken Dandar.
18             Any objection?
19             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.  The next one, same box, same
21        tape, date February, 2000, Clearwater, Florida, "In
22        and around courthouse before and after the TRO
23        hearing."  Then back to LMT for more picketing.
24        Robert Minton, Stacy Brooks, David Cecere, Jesse
25        Prince, Mike Rinder, Wally Pope, Bruce Howie, Ken



 

63
1        Dandar, Michael Garko, Dennis DeVlaming, Patricia
2        Greenway and on and on.
3             Any objection?
4             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
5             THE COURT:  Okay.
6             MR. DANDAR:  What tape number is that?
7             THE COURT:  Tape 52, box 2.  It's the same tape
8        as the other one.
9             MR. DANDAR:  Oh.
10             THE COURT:  It's all on that one tape.
11             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
12             THE COURT:  Okay.  Box 2, tape 54.  Clearwater,
13        Florida, April, 2000, "Outside courthouse after
14        hearing before Judge Schaeffer".  Then back to LMT
15        for picketing."  That must have been the criminal
16        case.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  April, 2000 sounds right.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.  Patricia Greenway, Mike
19        Rinder.  Must be Mike Rinder.  It's got R-e-n-d-e-r,
20        but it must --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  It's actually "I", but it's --
22             THE COURT:  Yeah.
23             Patricia Greenway, Mike Rinder, Richard Howd,
24        Ken Dandar, Michael Dandar, Ray Emmons, Stacy
25        Brooks.



 

64
1             Any objection?
2             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
3             THE COURT:  All right.  All of those, by the
4        way, I had "release" On them.
5             Here's another one, January, 2000, "Inside LMT
6        and picketing the Church of Scientology."  Antonio
7        Avila, Phillip Deller, Patricia Greenway, Robert
8        Minton, Grady Ward, David Cecere, Peter Alexander,
9        Paul Kellerhals, Stacy Brooks, Al Butnor, Jesse
10        Prince, Ken Dandar and Michael Garko.
11             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
12             THE COURT:  All right.
13             MR. DANDAR:  Tape number?
14             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 55.  Date, January,
15        2000, Clearwater, Florida.
16             Oh, this goes on and on and on.
17             All right.  Here we have one, Clearwater,
18        Florida.  This is a transit board hearing on
19        ante-Church of Scientology ads on the bus.  That's
20        advertisements.
21             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  You had already said -- we had
23        already talked about that back there.
24             THE COURT:  All right.
25             MR. WEINBERG:  Turning that over.



 

65
1             MR. DANDAR:  What tape number is that?
2             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 61.
3             MR. DANDAR:  And I should point out that tape
4        has nothing to do with the LMT or this case.
5             THE COURT:  That is true.  However, those are
6        witnesses, and I take it those are statements of
7        witnesses.
8             MR. DANDAR:  That's fine.
9             THE COURT:  Okay.  Here is one, box 2, tape 71,
10        "Early 2001, Clearwater, Florida.  Raw unedited
11        footage of the LMT offices and outside the Ft.
12        Harrison."  Robert Minton, Stacy Brooks, John -- I
13        think it's supposed to be Merrett -- Anita -- I'm
14        not sure.  It's M-e-r-r-i-r-r.  I don't know who
15        that is, but it might be -- supposed to be Merrett.
16        And Anita Gogola, Randy Ennerson, Heather Bennett,
17        Jesse Prince, Tory Bezazian, Ken Dandar, Michael
18        Garko, Bob Peterson, Arnie Lerma, Ingrid Wagner, Dee
19        Phillips, Jeff Jacobsen, Greg and Debra Barnes.
20             MR. DANDAR:  I'd like to see that.  I'd like to
21        see what -- it says, "Raw LMT offices."  That's not
22        an outside picket.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, it says, "Outside the Ft.
24        Harrison."
25             THE COURT:  "Outside the Ft. Harrison."



 

66
1             So I'll view it and I'll see what it is.
2             I think we're past my guess at five.
3             Who's Paul Kellerhals?
4             MR. WEINBERG:  He's the head of security --
5             THE COURT:  Security at the church.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  Security at the church.
7             MR. DANDAR:  Stacy's former husband.  Stacy
8        Brooks' former husband.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  As irrelevant as that is.
10             MR. DANDAR:  That's who he is.
11             THE COURT:  Well, here's one with Mary Jo
12        Melone, whom I see we welcome welcomed back to the
13        St. Pete Times today.  She's been ill, as I recall.
14        Anyway, this has Mr. Dandar -- says, "Footage of
15        panel discussions, interviews and picketing during
16        the week of the Lisa McPherson Memorial Picket."
17             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
18             THE COURT:  Okay.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  And just for the record, that
20        was box what?
21             THE COURT:  Box 2, tape 73.  It says,
22        "December, '99."
23             MR. DANDAR:  Does that say Mary J. Melone was
24        there?
25             THE COURT:  Well, her name -- her face



 

67
1        apparently is somebody they identified in the
2        footage.
3             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
4             THE COURT:  Mary Jo Melone.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Melone, yes.
6             THE COURT:  Also Dell Liebreich, Ken Dandar,
7        Michael Garko -- lots of people.  I mean, this is
8        another one of those great big boxes with lots of
9        folks.
10             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
11             THE COURT:  Here's one with Mr. Moxon in it.
12        And Mr. Dandar.
13             Okay.  Box 2, tape 102, "Summer, 2000,
14        Clearwater, Florida.  Footage from Ursula Caberta's
15        visit to Clearwater for her press conference."  It's
16        got Ursula Caberta, Al Butnar, Robert Minton, Stacy
17        Brooks, John Merrett, Gary Armstrong, Mary Demoss,
18        Kendrick Moxon, Grady Ward, Ken Dandar, Michael
19        Garko, Ray Emmons, Karen Case and Jesse Prince.
20             MR. DANDAR:  No objection.
21             THE COURT:  All right.  Here's another one with
22        Mr. Rinder and others.  That's to be released.
23             But I don't see -- believe it or not, I'm down
24        to the last three pages.
25             Okay.  Box 2, tape 128, December, 2000,



 

68
1        Clearwater, Florida.  "Footage shot in and around
2        LMT and the Ft. Harrison during the Lisa McPherson
3        Memorial Picket."  Whole slew of people.
4        Mr. Dandar, you're one of them.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  No objection.
6             THE COURT:  All right.  I believe that's it.
7        As I said, there are approximately one, two,
8        three --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  That's 12.
10             THE COURT:  About nine per page, and there's
11        probably on average -- and there's probably 25 pages
12        here.  They're not numbered.  So there's a lot of
13        tapes.
14             Those are the ones that you appeared in,
15        Mr. Dandar.  I believe there's only one or two that
16        you had any objection to.
17             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
18             THE COURT:  And I indicated I would view them.
19             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  There's only one, I think.  Oh,
21        two.  Was the first one of them -- there was a first
22        one, which was box 2, tape 6, December of '99, and
23        then there was a second -- then the other one was
24        box 2, tape 71.
25             THE COURT:  Right.  And I've got a copy others



 

69
1        here that, on my own, I asked to view, because I
2        didn't know -- one thing or another -- I think we
3        did them during the discussion we had in chambers.
4        Frankly, I don't think we had any disagreement in
5        chambers --
6             MR. WEINBERG:  No, we didn't.
7             THE COURT:  -- as to whether to release or not.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  We didn't have any argument, no.
9             THE COURT:  So eventually I'm going to get this
10        with an order -- when I say eventually, I have to
11        wait, now.  Mr. Keane says he's going to get me a
12        substitute.  I'll try to put together an order
13        telling him that these can be released, see if he
14        can put the ones that are going to be released in a
15        format so that you all can see them, and --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  And then we can communicate with
17        him after we see your list and say which ones we
18        want copied.
19             THE COURT:  Yes.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  And we can do that directly with
21        him.
22             THE COURT:  With him.
23             As far as I'm concerned, this is a situation
24        where I'm going to put out a list or he's going put
25        out a list of all the ones I've ordered to be



 

70
1        released.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
3             THE COURT:  If you want them all, you can get
4        them all.  If you only want two -- Mr. Dandar, the
5        same is true for you.  If you want them all, you can
6        get them all.  If you want one or two of them, you
7        can get what you want.
8             And I don't know how that works.  I don't know
9        who's paying.  I don't think I want to know.
10             But in other words, you don't have -- just
11        because I said, "Release them," doesn't mean that
12        you have to copy them.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  No.  We understand that.
14             And I -- is this something that we will be able
15        to have access to during our break?  I mean, when I
16        say break, during the two weeks break that you're
17        going to be gone?
18             THE COURT:  If I can get it done.  I'm going to
19        try real hard --
20             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
21             THE COURT:  -- okay?
22             Okay.  Go ahead and continue.
23        A    I hadn't quite finished answering the last
24   question.
25



 

71
1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Do you remember what it was?
3        A    Yes.  The last question was what were my
4   responsibilities as deputy inspector general --
5        Q    Yes?
6        A    -- at RTC.
7             And I mentioned we used to do the technology side
8   of Scientology.
9             Then there was a separate area, areas that I also
10   had responsibility for.  And those were the legal
11   intelligence and PR activities of OSA, which is a separate
12   network in Scientology.  And I had the responsibility of
13   also registering, getting trademarks registered in the
14   different countries of the world where Scientology was --
15   had activity.
16        Q    Okay.  So what did you have to do with legal and
17   intelligence departments of OSA?
18        A    In the -- in the beginning, not very much, because
19   it was nothing that I really knew anything about.  This was
20   something that I learned as part of this -- this job
21   activity.  So I would -- I was privy to the activities of
22   those areas as I learned the strategies for those areas.
23        Q    Would you receive reports from OSA?
24        A    Yes.  I would receive a report.  Every
25   executive -- well, not every -- I shouldn't say every



 

72
1   executive, but the top executives in Scientology were kept
2   abreast of the different operations in intelligence, legal
3   and PR, by -- at the end of the night -- just before the end
4   of the night, I would receive an envelope that said "Eyes
5   only."  And inside the envelope there would be typewritten
6   pages, maybe seven or eight typewritten pages, that gave a
7   summary of the different operations that legal, PR and
8   intelligence were involved in.  And after reading that
9   information, it was shred -- something that had to be
10   shredded instantly.
11        Q    It wasn't stored somewhere?
12        A    No.
13        Q    When you say legal operations, what are you
14   talking about?
15        A    Legal cases.
16             THE COURT:  Did you get this every day, you
17        say?
18             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Every day we get --
19             THE COURT:  How -- in those days -- I don't
20        know.  There was no e-mail.  How did you get it?
21             THE WITNESS:  Well, your Honor, this isn't
22        information that -- in an envelope, typed on,
23        obviously, a --
24             THE COURT:  I mean, if you're in Los Angeles,
25        and Flag down here in Clearwater wants to send you



 

73
1        something at the end of the day, how did they get it
2        from Clearwater to you?
3             THE WITNESS:  Well, your Honor, no one from
4        Clearwater would have sent me anything, because
5        there's a chain of command.  There are channels.  In
6        other words, executives in Scientology aren't
7        accessible to staff members of lower organizations
8        or things like this.  You have to go through a chain
9        of command in order to have correspondence with an
10        executive, or be asking for a specific privilege
11        from that executive, after having gone through the
12        channels.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  But somebody -- if -- you
14        got seven or eight pages from somebody --
15             THE WITNESS:  Oh, yeah.  This was brought --
16        brought around from a person in the intelligence
17        area, and they would simply come in, drop the
18        envelope on the desk and leave.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  Whoever it is that would
20        bring that envelope to you, from wherever it is, how
21        was it that they got the information, for example,
22        from Flag on the day's activities?
23             This is really a very simple question.  This
24        is:  Was it faxed?  Was it gotten there by
25        horseback?  I mean, how did they get it from Flag in



 

74
1        Clearwater up the line to whoever it is that dropped
2        it off on your desk?  Just physically.
3             THE WITNESS:  Well, there could have been
4        several ways that the information could have been
5        passed along.  It could have been passed along from
6        telephonic communications; it could have been passed
7        along via the computer.
8             At that time, when -- the time that I'm
9        speaking about there was no, quote/unquote, real
10        Internet, but Scientology had its own computer
11        messaging systems where we could send messages to
12        each other from Europe or from Florida to Los
13        Angeles.  So that was a way that information would
14        come in as well.
15             THE COURT:  Okay.
16   BY MR. DANDAR:
17        Q    And was OSA part of RTC?
18        A    No.  Not -- not during the time that I was there,
19   OSA was not part of the RTC.  During my time period in OSA,
20   OSA was in a very formative stage of being formed, being --
21   departments figured out, purposes, duties, that kind of
22   thing.
23        Q    Was there any carryover from The Guardian's office
24   to OSA?
25        A    Yes, there was.  The staff -- there were a



 

75
1   carryover of some of the staff and some of the -- and the
2   policies.
3        Q    Now, let's just go back -- you said one of the
4   things you would get daily is a report on legal operations.
5   Is that just in the United States?
6        A    Yes.  Well, predominantly.  But I don't think we
7   had any cases abroad of any real significance outside of the
8   United States during my time period.
9        Q    And when you were a deputy inspector general, who
10   was your senior?
11        A    The inspector general, which is Vicki Aznaran.
12        Q    And who was her senior?
13        A    David Miscavige.
14        Q    And who was his senior?
15        A    L. Ron Hubbard.  Pat Broeker.
16        Q    And when Mr. Hubbard died, who was Mr. Miscavige's
17   senior?
18        A    He had none.
19        Q    And when you were deputy inspector general, you
20   were a member of the Sea Org, correct?
21        A    Correct.
22        Q    Who was the head of the Sea Org?
23        A    The captain of the Sea Org was David Miscavige.
24        Q    Did he have any equal to his rank?
25        A    I'm sure he probably did.



 

76
1        Q    He had other captains?
2        A    Yes.
3        Q    And would they have equal power as David
4   Miscavige?
5        A    No.
6        Q    Why not?
7        A    Well, again, I'll refer to the organizational
8   chart, the command charts, which is an exhibit in this case.
9   You have a -- a kind of pyramid system of organizations as
10   far as seniority, powers -- broad powers and responsibility.
11   And at the top of the chain is RTC, Religious Technology
12   Center.  Below that is CSI, Church of Scientology
13   International, which is the mother church.  And then from
14   there you have like a -- what's called a FOLO, Flag Office
15   Liaison Office, which is supposed to be a management center
16   in the different sectors and countries where Scientology has
17   activity.
18             An example of -- of that would be here in
19   Clearwater.  You have the Ft. Harrison as one -- the Ft.
20   Harrison Building, or the Flag, which is one organization.
21   And separate from Flag you have another organization called
22   the FLB, the Flag Land Base organization, which, during my
23   period of time, concerned itself with the buildings, the
24   maintenance of the buildings, and then also did the
25   missions, where they would pull Sea Org members to send to



 

77
1   other areas, train them on specific orders to go out and
2   accomplish different things in the organizations.
3        Q    While you were in Scientology, could a Sea Org
4   mission go in and take over a completely independent org
5   like the Boston org?
6        A    Well, that -- that was the entire purpose of a
7   mission, to go in an area --
8             Well, that's not entirely true.  There's different
9   types of mission.  You could have a mission that would
10   simply go in there and observe --
11             THE COURT:  His question was, could the Sea Org
12        go in and take over?
13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
14   BY MR. DANDAR:
15        Q    And what gave it the power to do that?
16        A    The Sea Org is the organization that is
17   responsible ultimately for the success of Scientology.  The
18   persons that are in the Sea Org have dedicated themselves to
19   Scientology for one billion years, and their dedication is
20   to ensure that Scientology carries on and prevails in the
21   society we live in.
22        Q    And you signed a billion-year contract as well,
23   correct?
24        A    Yes.
25        Q    Now, the intelligence operations --



 

78
1             Well, let's go back to legal operations.  Would
2   you receive a report daily of what was going on in each and
3   every case that the Church of Scientology was involved in?
4        A    Pretty much, yes.  If there was activity, if there
5   was courtroom activity that day, or a motion that was being
6   put together or -- or whatever, I'd receive the report about
7   that.
8        Q    So if there was a lawsuit that the Boston org --
9   I'm sorry.  I'm picking on Boston -- the Boston org was a
10   party to and had a lawyer representing them in court, would
11   you receive a daily report on the activity of that lawsuit?
12        A    Yes.  If there was daily activity on that lawsuit,
13   I would certainly receive information about it.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, could we just date
15        from when it started to when it ended, that he was
16        getting this kind of info?
17             THE COURT:  I think he was saying during the
18        whole time that he was deputy inspector general.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  And I think he hadn't
20        said when that ended.
21             THE COURT:  Okay.  What was the period of time
22        that you were deputy inspector general?
23             THE WITNESS:  I would say from early 1985 until
24        January, 19, 1987.  '84.  I'd say '84.  Early '84.
25             THE COURT:  '85 -- early '84 to January of '87.



 

79
1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
2             THE COURT:  Okay.
3   BY MR. DANDAR:
4        Q    Now, when you were deputy inspector general of
5   RTC, was Mr. Miscavige the chairman of the board?
6        A    No.  Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board
7   of Author Services.
8        Q    Okay.  Do you know who the chairman of the board
9   of RTC was at the time you were deputy inspector general?
10        A    I later came to find out the chairman of the board
11   of RTC -- it changed a couple of times, to my knowledge, but
12   I think the person who was -- the last person who I knew was
13   actually chairman of the board was David Miscavige.
14        Q    Okay.
15             THE COURT:  Well, I thought -- let me stop you
16        just for a minute here.  I thought you indicated
17        that the chain of command was the deputy inspector
18        general, who was you, reported to the inspector
19        general, who was Vicki Aznaran, who reported to
20        David Miscavige.  In what capacity?
21             THE WITNESS:  David Miscavige was the chairman
22        of the board of Author Services.  Author Services
23        was a literary --
24             THE COURT:  Believe me, I know about Author
25        Services.



 

80
1             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  So --
2             THE COURT:  So that -- all I'm trying to find
3        out is the capacity in which David Miscavige was,
4        that Vicki Aznaran reported to, was as chairman of
5        the board of ASI?
6             THE WITNESS:  No.  He was really captain of the
7        Sea Org.
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    How could Vicki Aznaran and RTC, a religious
10   organization, have a senior who's a chairman of the board of
11   a for-profit organization?
12        A    Well, that's exactly the point.  Being-senior part
13   and -- and giving orders and things from Miscavige to
14   Aznaran wasn't anything that the general Scientology public
15   would know about.  This was kind of kept secret, in the same
16   way that Scientology staff members or Scientology public
17   members don't realize that Gilman Hot Springs is the
18   location of international management of Scientology; in that
19   same regard they would not know that Miscavige ultimately
20   would be the seniors of a person such as myself, Vicki
21   Aznaran and that kind of thing.
22             Or we couldn't have that -- it couldn't be clear
23   that -- that that was the case because that presented
24   problems with the tax -- we're trying to get tax exempt
25   status -- to have a for-profit corporation running a



 

81
1   nonprofit corporation.
2             But Miscavige was the leader.  Was and is the
3   leader.  I mean, at the even when L. Ron Hubbard was alive,
4   he would do his communications through Miscavige, that would
5   come to us.
6        Q    Okay.  And so was -- was Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran
7   senior -- and I think you already answered -- COB of ASI as
8   captain of the Sea Org?
9        A    As captain of the Sea Org.
10        Q    Now, the intelligence reports that you would get
11   daily, what kind of intelligence reports would you get?
12        A    Ones that I remember specifically at this time had
13   to do with different activities in the Wollersheim case,
14   whether it be Wollersheim 3, 4 or whatever; you know, what
15   was happening with the lawyers, what was overheard, what was
16   planned, what kind of information was coming up during
17   what's called a ODC and CDC.  ODC being overt data
18   collection.  They would collect information about the
19   attorney, his -- you know, his record.  They would do an
20   ODC.  And then a CDC.  And a CDC mainly entailed getting
21   information that is not readily available or is public
22   knowledge, such as personal phone records; a credit report,
23   bank reports, an individual's bank reports, this kind of
24   thing.
25        Q    How did OSA get an opposing counsel's bank



 

82
1   reports?
2        A    Hiring a private investigator.
3        Q    And how did the private investigator get an
4   attorney's private bank records?
5        A    This is something that they were hired to do.  It
6   was -- it was very much shunned that we know specifically
7   how that happened in case it ever went to court or the
8   person was ever caught.  So it was just, "Hey, we need this.
9   We need a credit report on this person.  We need his phone
10   records.  We need to know who he's talking about, who he's
11   talking with," and to do an analysis to find this person's
12   weakness.  What is the Achilles' Heel?  What is going to get
13   this person to stop giving grief to Scientology even if --
14   in a professional capacity as an attorney.
15             And then, you know, pursue those things that will
16   intimidate, harass or discourage.
17        Q    And why -- what gave you, as a member of the
18   Church of Scientology, the authority to do that, under
19   the -- under the rules and regulations or the policies of
20   the Church of Scientology?
21        A    I've seen many exhibits turned into this courtroom
22   concerning policies on intelligence and attitude.  And I
23   guess the overriding factor is this:  Scientology comes
24   first.  Scientology comes before the individual, comes
25   before the individual's family, comes before our current



 

83
1   justice system or whatever laws.  Scientology -- I mean,
2   it's even a high crime to speak at -- in Scientology's laws,
3   it's a high crime to come before a court and give testimony
4   without first Scientology being -- knowing completely what
5   your testimony would be, even if it had nothing to do with
6   Scientology.
7             So they have different rules and a different
8   standard to operate on.  I mean, you know, is it legal?  Is
9   it right?  Those are different matters.  But that's --
10        Q    Well --
11        A    -- the --
12        Q    -- when you were in this position, reading these
13   intelligence reports, do you know that if you got a credit
14   report of anyone that had not given you written permission
15   to get their credit report, that that was a federal crime?
16        A    You know, at the time I did not.  I personally did
17   not.  Because again, this is an area where I was kind of
18   cutting my teeth on, so I was being walked through it and
19   shown how things worked.
20        Q    Who was walking you through it?
21        A    Several people.  It started out with David
22   Miscavige kind of bringing me in the loop on this kind of
23   thing and showing me.  And the person who would normally be
24   involved in these kind of operations would be Marty Rathbun,
25   so I spent time with him, learning about these things.



 

84
1   And -- and Vicki Aznaran, who had previously had a lot of
2   association in the Guardian's office, which later became
3   OSA.  She was very familiar with the pattern and things that
4   they do.  And her husband, Rick Aznaran, who was my junior.
5   He was a person that I used for the physical security of --
6   to ensure the physical security of the Golden Era base of
7   Gilman Hot Springs, which eventually spread to other
8   organizations.  But that's another person who had
9   experience.
10        Q    Did you ever work with Mr. Moxon?
11        A    No.
12        Q    Were you gone before Mr. Moxon came on board?
13        A    I met Mr. -- no, I was not.  I met Mr. Moxon
14   when -- again, I was there in OSA's formative stages when I
15   actually had the responsibility to put a person in command
16   of it, fill personnel in the legal department, the PR
17   department, the intelligence department, establish it as a
18   organization which then would repeat itself in the other
19   minor organizations within Scientology.
20        Q    So you established the main OSA departments?
21        A    Correct.  The main OSA org board.  We were there
22   to work on what its organizing board should be, what
23   personnel it should have, what policies it needs to operated
24   on, who it needed to establish lines of communication with.
25        Q    Was OSA still Department 20 like the Guardian's



 

85
1   office was?
2        A    Yes.
3        Q    Did it have the same org board as the Guardian's
4   office?
5        A    You know, I couldn't -- in some respects they did,
6   but I don't think totally they did, because -- and this is
7   kind of how I learned it as we went along.  The -- the OSA
8   wanted to make sure that they didn't make the same mistakes
9   as the past Guardian's Office did.  One of the main mistakes
10   that the Guardian's office made was putting in writing and
11   detailing some of the operations that they did to some of
12   the people that opposed them.  An example that is, oh,
13   Paulette Cooper, with, you know, having a person inside with
14   her to affect her in certain ways, you know, and then the
15   next thing you know --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection as to competence.
17        Because he's talking about something that he wasn't
18        part of, that supposedly happened in the early '70s
19        and it can only be based on hearsay.
20             THE COURT:  Well, what does it have to do with
21        this hearing?
22             MR. DANDAR:  It has to do with our defense of
23        extortion against Mr. Minton and the fair game of
24        Mr. Minton causing him to come to this court and
25        lie.



 

86
1             THE COURT:  Okay.  And what -- who is this
2        woman?
3             MR. DANDAR:  Paulette Cooper.
4             THE COURT:  And how did you find out about
5        Paulette Cooper, since Mr. Weinberg objected?
6             THE WITNESS:  I was briefed about it, and I
7        remember her specifically.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, hold on.  That's my
9        objection.  This is just pure unmitigated hearsay.
10             MR. DANDAR:  Not when it comes from a corporate
11        client.
12             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, wait a minute.  He was
13        only in this position for -- whatever he said -- '85
14        to early '87.  And if I understand this, he's now
15        going to recount some supposed incident that
16        happened in the early '70s before he was even part
17        of --
18             THE COURT:  Within -- within the organization
19        to which he was the higher echelon person.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, RTC didn't even exist back
21        in the early '70s when this supposedly occurred.
22             MR. DANDAR:  But Department 20 did.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Could I --
24             MR. DANDAR:  I'm sorry.
25             THE COURT:  You can, but your objection's going



 

87
1        to be overruled.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Well, I'm just making a
3        record.
4             THE COURT:  All right.
5   BY MR. DANDAR:
6        Q    How did you find out about Paulette Cooper?
7        A    In 1977, when the FBI raided Scientology
8   headquarters in Los Angeles, they broke into a department
9   called B1, and they removed a lot of files.
10        Q    Scientology department?
11        A    A Scientology department.  It was their
12   intelligence branch.
13             One of the problems on the files which led certain
14   people to go to jail -- I guess 11 people went to jail over
15   this -- was the fact that every operation, including the
16   operation like the LSD in her toothpaste -- put LSD in her
17   toothpaste to make it seem like she's insane, or to lift her
18   fingerprints off a glass and put it on a bomb threat, which
19   she was eventually being prosecuted over -- I mean, these
20   things were written in detail of exactly how to do it.  And
21   it said on the top who it went to, who approved the program,
22   who executed the program.  In other words, details which
23   later came back to bite them severely.
24             So in putting this new OSA, this new branch there,
25   that had similar functions, but were supposed to operate a



 

88
1   little differently.  These reports came.  Again, it said,
2   "Eyes only."  There was no routing as to who it was going
3   to.  There was no author.  There were just paragraphs which
4   were just summations of different operations that -- that
5   Scientology were enacted to discourage people who were in
6   lawsuits against it or critical of it.
7        Q    And then those -- what you saw was then destroyed
8   in some way?
9        A    We were -- we had to shred it immediately.  Part
10   of the new policy -- and Vicki Aznaran is one of the people
11   that told me this -- everybody had to had a shred.  There
12   were only certain designated people these reports were going
13   to.  And we had to verify we shredded the reports.
14             But the reports themselves only contained brief
15   statements of the activities, not who were doing the
16   activities or any details like that.
17        Q    Would those activities include picketing, critics?
18        A    No.  These -- these were different.
19             I -- I'll give you an example of an activity.
20   There was an organization called CAN, called Awareness
21   Network, that Scientology had apparently been fighting for
22   years.  I had no knowledge of it myself, but I would receive
23   a report that there was a deep cover in CAN, listening in on
24   the legal process CAN was involved in, lawsuits and spats
25   with Scientology.



 

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1             This person would get privileged information --
2             MR. WEINBERG:  Your Honor, I object --
3        A    -- report it to --
4             MR. WEINBERG:  I --
5             THE COURT:  Excuse me.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  I believe that CAN didn't exist
7        in 1985 through 1987.  What's Mr. Prince talking
8        about?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Well, that's good cross
10        examination question.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Well -- but then I object to
12        whatever it is:  Hearsay, competence.  And he's up
13        here talking about some organization that, if I'm
14        correct -- and I think I am correct -- didn't even
15        exist when he was there.  How can he be talking
16        about an intelligence operation with regard to it as
17        if --
18             THE WITNESS:  If you'll let me finish --
19             THE COURT:  Well, just a minute.  NO, you don't
20        get to talk --
21             THE WITNESS:  Oh.
22             THE COURT:  -- until I make a ruling.  And we
23        surely do not need help from you.  At least, I
24        don't, in making my ruling.
25             Now, when did this occur, Mr. Prince?



 

90
1             THE WITNESS:  The specific example that I'm
2        telling you --
3             THE COURT:  Yes.
4             THE WITNESS:  -- are things that I've read with
5        my own eyes concerning a group -- it was either CAN
6        or something like CAN -- that Scientology wanted to
7        get rid of.
8             So a person was placed in there, deep cover --
9             THE COURT:  You are so far ahead of me.  Don't
10        incur my ire, because it's the afternoon and it's
11        getting close to 4:00, and that's bad for you and
12        everybody else.
13             When did this operation take place, whatever it
14        is you're talking about?  When did it occur?
15             THE WITNESS:  It was either 1984, 1985, 1986.
16        It would have been somewhere --
17             I'm giving an example of something that I read
18        within those three years.
19             THE COURT:  Okay.  And that's when it occurred?
20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
21             THE COURT:  And you were in the organization?
22             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
23             THE COURT:  And you read it as part of the
24        documents of the organization.
25             THE WITNESS:  No.  As part of the envelope that



 

91
1        would come by, like I explained earlier.
2             THE COURT:  Oh, and you read it on -- in what
3        was reported to you.
4             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
5             THE COURT:  Overruled.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.  And I'll cross
7        examine him if it has to do with CAN.
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    So they put an undercover person into this
10   organization?
11        A    Correct.
12        Q    And what was this person doing?
13        A    The person was there as a volunteer to assist the
14   executives of the organization, you know, carry out whatever
15   they were doing.  And this organization was an organization
16   similar in some ways to the Leo J. Ryan Foundation, in that
17   anyone from anyplace could call, "I think my kid is in a
18   cult.  My daughter's in a cult.  Can you give me information
19   about it?"  It was an organization similar to that.
20             And this person was put in there to divine and be
21   able to turn over to Scientology's legal team information
22   that would give them an advantage in court.
23        Q    Okay.  Now, besides the reporting of intelligence
24   and legal operations, did you have anything to do with the
25   hiring of law firms?



 

92
1        A    Yes.  I hired -- I can't tell you how many
2   different law firms abroad, simply for the purpose of filing
3   trademarks.  But in the United States, a law -- well, an
4   attorney that I hired by the name of Joseph Yanni for RTC --
5             THE COURT:  I know this must be relevant, and
6        I'm sure you can tell me, but what -- what is who
7        the law firms were or who was hired --
8             MR. DANDAR:  No.  I don't care who the law
9        firms were.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             MR. DANDAR:  I just want to know if that was
12        part of his duties.
13             THE COURT:  All right.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.  And to the extent
15        that he's going to ask Mr. Prince about his
16        discussions with these law firms, that would be
17        privileged.
18             THE COURT:  As to those -- those --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  In particular --
20             THE COURT:  -- matters -- that's right.  During
21        the time that he was in the organization.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  And I assume Mr. Dandar has not
23        talked to Mr. Prince about if Mr. Prince talked to
24        lawyers for the Church of Scientology about --
25             THE COURT:  I don't want to hear it right now.



 

93
1        I mean, this is a question-and-answer period.  You
2        have an objection, make it.
3             MR. WEINBERG:  That was my objection.
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    In addition to just hiring the law firms, would
6   you also direct the litigation?
7        A    Correct.
8        Q    All right.  And we're not going to go into details
9   about how you directed the litigation.
10        A    Or even participated in the direction of it.  You
11   know, maybe not me, "Oh, this is my idea.  Therefore we're
12   doing this," but as a group.  It was a group of people.  It
13   was, you know -- and if there was ever a single decision to
14   be made, it was certainly made by the highest person.  But
15   we operated as a group.
16        Q    Who was in the group?
17        A    It was Mr. David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran,
18   Mark Yeager, Marty Rathbun, Lyman Spurlock, Mark --
19             THE COURT:  It really -- I don't get it yet.
20        Why I do care how they hire a law firm?
21             MR. DANDAR:  No.  This is how they direct the
22        litigation, Judge.
23             THE COURT:  Oh, all right.
24   BY MR. DANDAR:
25        Q    And was the litigation --



 

94
1             THE COURT:  Well, I hope they do.  They hire
2        the law firm, they're supposed to be in charge of
3        the litigation, right?
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    Do you leave it up to the lawyers to decide how to
6   run the litigation?
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor.  Now we
8        are getting into work product as to how it is that
9        the church dealt with their lawyers back in the
10        '80s.
11             THE COURT:  Sustained.
12   BY MR. DANDAR:
13        Q    Did the litigation involve RTC, that this group
14   would meet and discuss, or did it involve any organization
15   of Scientology?
16        A    In one instance it did involve RTC.  In other
17   instances it involved CSE, such as the Wollersheim case.  So
18   you know, it would -- depending on the case --
19        Q    Okay.  What I'm asking you is it didn't -- it
20   didn't concern crossing over corporate lines and involving
21   litigation involving different corporations.
22        A    The -- the persons that I named that concerned
23   themselves with litigation concerned themselves with all
24   Scientology litigation, despite what corporation or
25   whatever.  These were the people that dealt with litigation



 

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1   for Scientology.
2        Q    And there -- was there a head of that group?
3        A    Yes.
4        Q    Who?
5        A    David Miscavige.
6             THE COURT:  Are you trying to tell me that
7        David Miscavige is running this lawsuit?  Is that
8        what you're trying to tell me?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Running everything.
10             THE COURT:  Well, I mean in particular are you
11        trying to tell me he's running this lawsuit?
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  Well, why would I care?  I mean,
14        why do I care who's running the lawsuit?
15             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  All right.
16             THE COURT:  I mean, this is -- this is a motion
17        to determine whether your case should be dismissed.
18             MR. DANDAR:  It's leading up to this question.
19   BY MR. DANDAR:
20        Q    You mentioned the Wollersheim case.  Can you tell
21   us what activities you personally know about in the
22   Wollersheim case that have anything to do with the
23   destruction of evidence?
24        A    Yes, there is.  And I -- I've done an affidavit
25   about that, and I'm sure it's filed in this case.



 

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1             But there came a point in time where the judge --
2   as part of a discovery motion, it was ordered that Lawrence
3   Wollersheim's PC folders get turned over.
4             I remember during one of these requests -- and it
5   looked like it was pretty serious that the judge was going
6   to make them turn over these PC folders -- that we had to
7   organize -- myself, Vicki Aznaran and other people had to go
8   through the files and redact them by taking out
9   incriminating information, what was considered to be
10   incriminating information against Scientology or anything
11   that could be misunderstood and could then become
12   incriminating.
13             We went through and we redacted files.  And then
14   when defense complained and -- about the files being
15   redacted and the judge ordered the files just simply turned
16   over straight out, those files were destroyed.  They were
17   pulped.
18        Q    What do you mean by pulped?
19        A    They were taken to a paper factory.  They were
20   loaded into a -- they were shredded, loaded into a solution
21   and turned into a fiber.
22             THE COURT:  Who ordered them destroyed?
23             THE WITNESS:  At the time that I destroyed
24        those documents, the order came to me from Vicki
25        Aznaran, who received it from David Miscavige.



 

97
1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Were there -- was this a -- destruction of
3   evidence -- was it pursuant to policy established in the
4   Church of Scientology?
5        A    Well, the old overriding policy in Scientology is
6   to protect Scientology; to make it -- you know, protect it
7   in any way and to cultivate it and -- of course, something
8   that would harm it --
9             THE COURT:  Where is that written?  I mean,
10        everything here in policy is in a document written
11        down somewhere.  Where is it?
12             THE WITNESS:  There's a policy letter called
13        Keeping Scientology Working.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.  And that's in evidence and I
15        have that, so that's -- you're suggesting that is
16        part of the Keeping Scientology Working --
17             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
18             THE COURT:  -- policy.
19   BY MR. DANDAR:
20        Q    Any other policy besides that one?
21        A    Of protecting Scientology, there's Safeguarding
22   Technology.  I believe that's a HCO policy letter and a
23   bulletin.  There's policies concerning --
24             Well, I -- that's what readily comes to mind.
25   That's what I mentioned.



 

98
1             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
2             THE COURT:  The relevance of this testimony is
3        because you're going to ask me to believe that
4        Mr. Miscavige directed that the PC folders of Lisa
5        McPherson be destroyed.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
7             THE COURT:  Okay.  Or at least in part be
8        pulped.
9   BY MR. DANDAR:
10        Q    Are you familiar with --
11             THE COURT:  Pulped.  Destroyed in some fashion.
12             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  Just so the record is clear, we
15        turned over the PC folders.
16             THE COURT:  Well, I understand.  But he is
17        testifying, and so did they in the Wollersheim case,
18        that they turned over what they wanted to turn over
19        after all the damaging stuff was taken out and
20        pulped.  I'm not saying that's true; I'm saying
21        that's the testimony.  Maybe it is true.  I'm not
22        saying it's not either.
23             MR. WEINBERG:  Well, in this particular case,
24        Mr. Dandar has used the PC folders he believes
25        affirmatively to indicate it supports his case.  I



 

99
1        mean, we turned over volumes of PC folders of Lisa
2        McPherson.
3             THE COURT:  I can guarantee you did.  If this
4        testimony has any relevance at all, the only
5        relevance it could possibly have is that this
6        witness as an expert is going to tell us that Lisa
7        McPherson's PC folders are not intact.
8             Is that right?
9             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.  That was my next question.
10             THE COURT:  All right.
11   BY MR. DANDAR:
12        Q    I had you review Lisa McPherson's PC folders,
13   correct?
14        A    Correct.
15        Q    And you did that with Stacy Brooks, right?
16        A    Correct.  In part, yes.
17        Q    And did you -- did you find her 1995 --
18             Well, actually, you looked at -- you did a general
19   review of '95, '94 and '93, correct?
20        A    I believe that's correct.  I mean, I don't
21   remember.  But I certainly did an affidavit that laid out
22   exactly what years I covered and what --
23             THE COURT:  Why don't you let the man have his
24        affidavit while he's testifying?
25



 

100
1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Let me show you the 12-page affidavit dated in
3   this case -- April 4th, 2000 --
4        A    Okay.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Next exhibit number.
6             THE COURT:  I think this may be in evidence,
7        but maybe not.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think so.
9             THE COURT:  Oh, okay.
10             MR. DANDAR:  108.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Affidavit -- it's your new 108.
12        Is that what it is?
13             MR. DANDAR:  Yeah.  I -- what did I do --
14             Oh, Judge, let me give you the clerk's copy.
15        Well, I better give you your copy and I'll give the
16        witness the clerk's copy.  Then I'll be left without
17        a copy.
18             Here.  Take this one.
19             THE WITNESS:  Okay.
20             THE COURT:  Oh, no.  This isn't -- I've never
21        seen this before.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  If I'm not mistaken, this is
23        under seal.
24             THE COURT:  Well, really, there isn't much
25        under seal --



 

101
1             Well, this is part of the PC folders.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I think because of the PC
3        folders.
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    First of all, Mr. Prince, you said you were a
6   class 9 auditor in Scientology?
7        A    Correct.
8        Q    You audit people who are members of the Church of
9   Scientology?
10        A    Yes, I have.
11        Q    Both staff and public?
12        A    Correct.
13        Q    Of course, you're not going to tell us what you
14   did in the auditing.  I'm not asking that.  But who are some
15   of the more famous people you audited?
16             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to that.  He
17        shouldn't -- I object to him talking about auditing
18        famous -- quote, famous people.  I mean, the
19        St. Pete Times is here.  Has nothing to do with the
20        proceeding.  If Mr. Prince has audited some famous
21        person, what's that got to do with this proceeding?
22             THE COURT:  Well, you know, the truth of this
23        matter is, I remember seeing something in this
24        lawsuit that was filed that said he audited David
25        Miscavige.



 

102
1             MR. WEINBERG:  I understand.
2             THE COURT:  I think that would have some
3        bearing, that Mr. Miscavige would trust -- or
4        Mr. Miscavige would trust this man to audit the head
5        of the church.
6             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think that's where
7        Mr. Dandar was going.
8             THE COURT:  Okay.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  I think what Mr. Dandar was
10        trying to do was get some famous person's name, who
11        has been audited, much like a priest gave somebody
12        confession, and just put it out there so that we can
13        read about it tomorrow.  And I don't think that's
14        appropriate and I don't think it's relevant.
15             THE COURT:  Well, you know what I think?  That
16        at issue in this particular case is whether
17        Mr. Prince is qualified as an expert, his
18        credentials and everything about it.  If he was --
19             I don't know who picks an auditor, whether he
20        decides who he wants to audit or whether someone
21        hired him -- and there weren't too many when he was
22        there -- made that choice.  And if they chose him to
23        do a famous person, I would think that showed they
24        had confidence --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  But isn't that the person's -- I



 

103
1        mean, talking about what Mr. Dandar talks about --
2        privacy right, as to -- as to who it was that -- and
3        when it was that he was talking to a minister of the
4        Church of Scientology --
5             THE COURT:  I didn't hear anybody say when and
6        I didn't hear anybody say what they said.  What I
7        heard him ask was, who did he audit?  I know of no
8        privilege at all --
9             I mean, are these people not proud to be
10        members of the Church of Scientology?
11             MR. WEINBERG:  I think they are, but I think
12        they would prefer that there not be testimony from
13        Mr. Prince, who they don't have a high regard for,
14        you know, at this point, given --
15             THE COURT:  Well --
16             MR. WEINBERG:  -- given what Mr. Prince has
17        done over the last -- whenever it is -- four or five
18        or six years --
19             THE COURT:  Overruled.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  That's my objection.
21             THE COURT:  Your objection is overruled.
22        A    The fact of the matter is -- is as far as
23   Scientology celebrities are concerned, I've never audited
24   one.  I've been a case supervisor for them.  I've supervised
25   their folders.  I've reviewed and ordered corrections on



 

104
1   their files.  But I've never audited any Scientology
2   celebrity.
3             THE COURT:  See?  Wasn't that a big bunch of
4        hooey over nothing?
5             MR. WEINBERG:  I guess my question is, why did
6        he ask the question?
7             THE COURT:  I have no idea.  But I had to
8        listen a lot longer to him and your objection than I
9        had to listen to him saying no one.
10             MR. WEINBERG:  That's true.
11             THE COURT:  Is this Number 108, by the way?  I
12        can't read your writing.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Yes.
14             THE COURT:  105?  108.  Okay.
15   BY MR. DANDAR:
16        Q    Who are one of the celebrities you case
17   supervised, Mr. Prince?
18             THE COURT:  I must need a break because I can
19        tell I'm getting cranky.  So we'll be in recess for
20        15 minutes.  We'll be in recess.
21                (A recess was taken at 3:30 p.m.)
22            (The proceedings reconvened at 3:46 p.m.)
23             THE COURT:  Okay.  Mr. Dandar, continue.
24   BY MR. DANDAR:
25        Q    So as a case supervisor, can you give us a couple



 

105
1   names of the famous celebrities you case supervised?
2        A    I've done case supervision, training exercises,
3   training with John Travolta, Tom Cruise, Karen Black.  I
4   don't know.  I mean, there isn't a one of them that I
5   haven't, because I specifically ran a project to ensure that
6   the auditing of the celebrities were going well.
7        Q    When was this?
8        A    This was again during the same time period I
9   mentioned before, from I guess 1983 through '87.
10        Q    Did you audited (sic) Mr. Miscavige?
11        A    Yes.  I was his personal auditor for a while.
12        Q    How long?
13        A    Maybe a year, year and a half.  Maybe a couple of
14   years.
15        Q    What couple of years was that?
16        A    Oh, I'd say, you know, through '84, '85, I audited
17   him; '86 I audited him.  So it's a longer period of time,
18   actually.  Maybe three years.
19        Q    Okay.  Did he have other auditors?
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    And he selected you and the other auditors or
22   somehow he gets assigned or rotated or anything like that?
23        A    I was selected to be his auditor by the senior
24   case supervisor international, Ray Mithoff.
25        Q    And were you in RTC at the time?



 

106
1        A    Yes.
2             THE COURT:  Senior case supervisor, did you
3        say?
4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.  Yes, your Honor.
5        Senior case supervisor international.
6             THE COURT:  Yeah.  Okay.
7             THE WITNESS:  He would be the highest case
8        supervisor within Scientology.
9             THE COURT:  Okay.
10   BY MR. DANDAR:
11        Q    And how was your relationship with Mr. Miscavige
12   until you left in '87 -- I'm sorry -- until you left -- you
13   changed your post of deputy inspector general?
14        A    Well, shortly after that, there was a big power
15   struggle.  And I've also certainly written about that and
16   spoke about that.  But there was a power struggle in 1987
17   where I was forcibly removed.  However I remained in the Sea
18   Org for five years after that.
19        Q    And of course, Mr. Miscavige was the captain of
20   the Sea Org for those five years, correct?
21        A    Sure.
22             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, at this time I'd like to
23        play a video clip.  It's nine minutes long.
24             THE COURT:  Okay.
25             MR. DANDAR:  Of Mr. Prince inside Scientology.



 

107
1             MR. WEINBERG:  Do you have a transcript?
2             MR. DANDAR:  There's no transcript.
3             This is a copy from a copy from a copy, so it's
4        not the best quality.
5             THE COURT:  Do the best you can.
6             MR. DANDAR:  Should we dim some lights?
7             MR. WEINBERG:  Can we date this?
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    Mr. Prince, do you know when this speech was
10   given?
11        A    Yes, I do.
12        Q    When?
13        A    It was December 31st, 1986.
14        Q    Okay.
15        (The videotape, Jesse Prince at New Year's, 1986,
16                     was played as follows:)
17             THE COURT:  1996?
18             "-- discuss expansion, legal victories and
19        acknowledge top contributing members.
20             "Thank you.  Thank you very much.
21             "Next area we wanted to brief you on were the
22        activities and wins from the Religious Technology
23        Center in 1986.  As I'm sure you're all aware, the
24        Religious Technology Center owns the trademarks of
25        Dianetics and Scientology, and their job is really



 

108
1        to see that Scientology is applied as LRH intended.
2        Keeping Scientology Working.  Along with that, they
3        have started new activities, expansion activities at
4        Scientology, opening up new fronts to Scientology,
5        new countries to Scientology, and seeing that not
6        only is the tech applied correctly, but in some
7        instances seeing that it starts being applied for
8        the first time.
9             "The speaker we have this evening has been in
10        the Religious Technology Center for four years.  In
11        fact, he's a deputy inspector general.  Please
12        welcome Commander Jesse Prince.
13             "Thank you.
14             "Thank you.
15             "Well, good evening.  And it's a pleasure to be
16        with you tonight as we welcome in AD37.
17             "I want to brief you on some of the highlights
18        of 1986 as we made some breakthroughs in the areas
19        of terminating and handling squirreling and the
20        expansion of Scientology and keeping Scientology
21        working, which I think you'll all find of interest.
22             "Squirrel groups are by themselves a rather
23        simple thing to handle.  As per HCO spec letter of
24        27 September, 1965, Internal dissension is what
25        tears these splinter groups apart, formed by people



 

109
1        who's overt acts against Scientology prevent case
2        gain.  They rapidly rip one another to pieces.  So
3        even if one took no action at all because of their
4        own ability to keep ethics in on themselves, these
5        squirrels always disappear.
6             "But the real key to it is to handle any
7        squirrels and squirreling so that they are
8        terminatedly handled.  To do that takes a
9        no-nonsense and a nonapologetic attitude about who
10        and what we are, and an unstoppable dedication to
11        the preservation of the technology.
12             "This year, the Religious Technology Center
13        undertook several courses of action designed to shut
14        the door forever on squirreling of any kind, whether
15        it is on the upper-level materials of Scientology,
16        the lower levels, against the copyrights, or even
17        the right to license and control of the trademarks
18        of Dianetics and Scientology.
19             "First, as you may remember, in 1985 we won an
20        order from a federal court in Los Angeles that
21        prevented certain squirrels and psychs from using,
22        copying or even having the noisy materials.
23             "Well, in 1986 we actually took this a step
24        further.  This year, the noisy materials were
25        officially copyrighted, and we took this



 

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1        breakthrough to the federal court in this lawsuit.
2        We got a green light -- of course, against the
3        squirrels' protest -- to add yet another account to
4        the lawsuit for the squirrels' violations of our
5        copyrights.  Now legally this means the squirrels
6        cannot have any unauthorized originals or copies of
7        our upper-level materials at all without being
8        prosecuted under copyright law.  And I assure you
9        that any squirrels committing that crime, abusing
10        our materials, will be prosecuted.
11             "You see, we take a very hard line with those
12        few ill-intentioned small thetans that would attempt
13        to pervert our tech, as for them, to see others
14        become, or better more able, threatens their tiny
15        little beingness.  It's just that simple.
16             "The reason we take a very hard line in
17        enforcing our trademarks, copyrights and the purity
18        of the tech and its application was very succinctly
19        stated by LRH in Keeping Scientology Working.  And I
20        quote, 'The whole agonized future of this planet,
21        every man, woman and child on it, and your own
22        destiny for the next trillions of years depend on
23        what you do here and now with and in Scientology.'
24             "This is a deadly serious activity.  And if we
25        miss getting off the tread now, we may never again



 

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1        have another chance.
2             "The next area to handle was the area of the
3        lower-level materials, which are also protected by
4        copyright.  In both the United Kingdom and Europe we
5        found instances of squirrels who thought that they
6        could get away with copying and using various --
7        various of our lower-level materials.  In both
8        cases, these squirrels were sued, and in both cases,
9        the squirrel immediately asked for a settlement on
10        our terms completely.
11             "Now, the final settlement papers contain some
12        strong language that can be used from this point
13        forward to show that the courts around the world
14        will not put up with attempts to steal, use LRH tech
15        in an unauthorized manner.  There is however another
16        side to this battle that is actually very fortunate
17        for us.  And that is, in HCO PL, 21 November, 1972,
18        issue 1, LRH states, 'The basic characteristic of
19        extreme madness is perpetual attack.  Attacks on
20        anything.  Attacks on persons or things which
21        contain no menace.  Extreme, not petty crime, is at
22        the root of such an impulse.'
23             "You see --
24             "I'll say it again:  'Extreme, not petty crime,
25        is at the root of such an impulse.'



 

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1             "And we have a handling for that.  Because this
2        obviously works to our advantage.  Many squirrels
3        wound up inside a jail in 1986 and many others are
4        being prosecuted.  Their crimes range from robbery
5        to drunken driving and resisting arrest to contempt
6        of court to manufacturing drugs.  As we move into
7        the new year, it is important to understand why we
8        will always walk away winners and why our enemies
9        will ultimately end up the losers.
10             "In 1965, LRH explained this.  He said, 'The
11        basic purpose of orgs is to implement Scientology.
12        Scientology is prior to purposes.  Explaining them
13        and handling them, it is of course senior to all
14        purposes and indeed the universe.  It simply is
15        life.  And being life itself, it has a far greater
16        power than any activity, depending upon purpose
17        alone.  That is why people are so happy with it and
18        why groups founded on mere purposes are quite afraid
19        of Scientology.  For it is unconsciously realized
20        that life itself, alone, can make and unmake
21        purposes and rise superior to all formulas and
22        actions.'"
23   BY MR. DANDAR:
24        Q    Mr. Prince, in that video you said something about
25   having settlements with people, and they -- they -- they beg



 

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1   or they want to settle.  Do you recall that?
2        A    Yes, I do.
3        Q    What did you mean by that?
4        A    Well, I can really only relate that to specific
5   examples.
6             There was a -- a person named Robert Scott who put
7   on a Navy uniform -- who put on a Navy uniform similar to
8   the Navy uniforms that were used by Scientology at the time,
9   walked into its top organization in AOSEU -- AOSHEU.  I hate
10   to keep saying that.  But he walked in there, and he
11   demanded a copy of NED 4 OTs so he could use that to review
12   folders, and he took this material and he walked out the
13   door.
14             One thing that I did in my department was to
15   arrange for someone in Denmark, who seemingly wanted to pay
16   a high price for these materials -- arranged for him to
17   negotiate a price with that person, and then to fly over to
18   Denmark with a copy of the materials to exchange for money,
19   when in fact what had been set up was, the instant he got
20   off the airplane, to be arrested.
21             And years later, I went back to his house and
22   threatened him even more on that particular issue after he
23   was -- got out of jail -- I think he was in there for a
24   month -- and basically just let him know that we intended on
25   taking everything that he had, and his only salvation was to



 

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1   cooperate with us.
2        Q    Did he cooperate with you?
3        A    Eventually he did, yes.
4        Q    And did you -- in what manner did he cooperate
5   with you?
6        A    He -- I think even in my own hand I may have
7   gotten him to sign something, because I think he had a
8   countersuit.  And I'm just doing this from memory, of
9   course.  My former colleagues will be able to provide more
10   information.
11             But he had a counterclaim, I believe.  I got him
12   to agree to drop the counterclaim.  I agreed with him to
13   drop our lawsuit against him if he listed for us everyone
14   that the materials went to, gave us all copies.
15             And he had a castle called Kendegrade Castle in
16   Scotland.
17             (A discussion was held off the record.)
18        A    But we were in Scotland at the time, and he had
19   this magnificent castle, and I told him he would certainly
20   lose the castle as part of these negotiations, because there
21   was some financial consideration as well in the settlement.
22   BY MR. DANDAR:
23        Q    And did he lose the castle?
24        A    Yes.
25        Q    Did the Church of Scientology take it?



 

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1        A    I think the castle was sold and they may have
2   gotten money from it.
3        Q    Have you ever been involved in any operation where
4   the Church of Scientology went after attorneys?
5        A    Yes.  I've been in a couple of instances of that.
6             My first memory of it happening, again, was in the
7   Wollersheim case.  This is during the period of time where
8   I'm kind of being broken in.  I'm kind of cutting my teeth
9   on these areas.
10             While I was talking with Marty -- I was in a room
11   with Marty and Dave and Vicki, and we were just kind of
12   laughing and talking.  And Marty mentioned that Charles
13   O'Reilly -- they had followed him to some club after a
14   hearing or something.  And I guess they were having drinks
15   and a meal.  And a private investigator by the name Gene
16   Ingram apparently had hired a thug or somebody to physically
17   beat up the attorney there, Charles O'Reilly.
18             Gary Bright, who was an attorney, I think, on --
19   on one of the Wollersheim cases -- we had a deep cover in
20   the Advance Ability Center, which was located in Santa
21   Barbara.  He would come there to have meetings with his
22   client.  And our deep cover was also a trusted person by the
23   client, so that person would have privileged information.
24   That person was the senior SCS international's brother, Bob
25   Mithoff, who was a deep cover.  There were actually three



 

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1   deep covers that we had in there, Bob being the most
2   effective and the most trusted.  And privileged information
3   would be taken, financial information would be taken, legal
4   strategies would be known and, you know, used against them.
5        Q    You're talking about Mr. Wollersheim, is that
6   right?
7        A    In this last instance, yes, that's right, the
8   Wollersheim.
9        Q    Okay.  Any other attorneys or any other cases that
10   you personally have knowledge of while you were inside the
11   Church of Scientology?
12        A    You know, I don't remember anything specific, but
13   I do know that part of it would be to always create
14   complaints that could be submitted to the bar against
15   opposing counsel.
16        Q    Do you have personal knowledge about that?
17        A    You know, I'm going to say, as I sit here today,
18   that I don't remember specifically who the attorney was
19   or --
20        Q    All right.
21        A    I can't say that.
22             THE COURT:  In your video you kept referring to
23        the term -- which is -- happens to be new to this
24        hearing -- which is squirrel group and squirreling.
25        What is that?



 

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1             THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, squirreling is a term
2        created by L. Ron Hubbard to mean that anyone that
3        is using Scientology in an unauthorized matter (sic)
4        and is also not using it strictly as it is written.
5             THE COURT:  It could be somebody within or
6        without.
7             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
8             THE COURT:  So someone using the tech, is that
9        it; someone using the tech improperly?
10             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
11             THE COURT:  Okay.  Thank you.
12             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Rather than mark all
13        this as separate exhibits, your Honor, I'd like to
14        mark the next document as a composite so it would
15        speed things up.
16             What number would that be?  109?
17             THE CLERK:  Yes.
18             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  Handing the witness the
19        clerk's copy, Plaintiff's 109.
20   BY MR. DANDAR:
21        Q    Can you identify the first page of 109,
22   Mr. Prince?
23        A    Yes, I can.  This is HCO executive letter written
24   in 1966.  Apparently parts of it were written by a person
25   named Kathy and the other author is L. Ron Hubbard.



 

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1        Q    And what is a noisy investigation?
2        A    This is an intelligence operation that is done to
3   discourage; to harass and discourage.
4             An example -- they give a pretty clear example I
5   think right here.
6             But another example of that could be to go around
7   to a person's neighbors, past business associates,
8   ex-girlfriends, anyone that would have a bone to pick, and
9   make allegations about the person, and ask them, "Well, did
10   you know that he stole the blue ball on the 17th of
11   whatever, and he -- he's doing this, and he's really a bad
12   person; and do you know anything he's done?"  And an
13   investigator will systematically go through persons
14   associated with the target to create this air of alarm and
15   hysteria, basically.
16        Q    When you were the deputy inspector general,
17   receiving reports from OSA intelligence, do you know -- did
18   you see reports on noisy investigations of people opposed by
19   Scientology?
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    And -- now, this is an HCO executive letter, 1966.
22   Was that still being practiced when you were deputy
23   inspector general?
24        A    Everything that is written by L. Ron Hubbard and
25   is actually in a published form.  Like this is a timeless



 

119
1   piece to be followed for eternity.  So it's kind of like the
2   Bible, you know?  The Bible was written a couple of thousand
3   years ago but people still stick to that.
4             In that regard and only in that regard is there a
5   similarity in that these things are held sacred and forever.
6        Q    Did you observe any noisy investigation of Bob
7   Minton?
8        A    Yes.
9        Q    What -- give us some examples.
10        A    Well, the most vivid one that comes to mind is an
11   operation that was done on his best friend, Jeff Schmidt,
12   who he had apparently started a company with.  Scientology
13   found out about Jeff Schmidt through its investigation of
14   Bob Minton.
15             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection.  Hearsay, your Honor.
16             THE COURT:  How do you know about this?
17             THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, I was there and I
18        spoke with Jeff Schmidt and Robert Minton.  We were
19        in the financial district in London.  And he made it
20        very clear to me what Scientology had done.  And he
21        was in the process of packing up his office to move
22        out of the country.
23             THE COURT:  I'm going to allow it.  It -- it is
24        hearsay.  You're right.  It's hearsay.  But for the
25        purpose of this hearing, I'm going to allow --



 

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1        there's a lot of hearsay in this hearing.
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I know.  I just -- you know,
3        you --
4             THE COURT:  Right.  And it is hearsay, and
5        it'll be taken as hearsay.
6   BY MR. DANDAR:
7        Q    And Jeff Schmidt was Bob Minton's business
8   partner?
9        A    Correct.
10        Q    And what happened to him?
11        A    He eventually disassociated himself from Bob
12   Minton from fear of losing his business practice.  He
13   basically couldn't stand a threat --
14             What he told me specifically is that a Scientology
15   investigator came to him and asked him to either provide or
16   show them how to create information to get Bob Minton; in
17   other words, to get him in legally, to get him involved in
18   law enforcement, on the bad end of law enforcement.  And
19   Jeff Schmidt said that he was refusing to do it, and had had
20   many negotiations with this private investigator.
21             Finally his office was broken into and materials
22   were taken out of the office, and at that point, that's when
23   Bob and I flew over there to discuss, "Well, okay.  What was
24   taken?  What does this mean?  What can be done?"
25        Q    Do you know where that information ended up?



 

121
1        A    I do not.
2        Q    Did Jeff Schmidt -- was he Mr. Minton's partner in
3   the Nigerian deal?
4        A    Yes, he was, along with a person, I think, named
5   Miselan (phonetic).
6        Q    And do you know if they made a little bit of money
7   on that deal, or a lot?
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection, your Honor.  I mean,
9        again, Mr. Prince is now being asked what Mr. Minton
10        made on the Nigerian deal, based on a conversation,
11        apparently, with Mr. Minton's former partner.  I
12        mean --
13             THE COURT:  And Mr. Minton.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  And/or Mr. Minton.
15             He had the opportunity to ask Mr. Minton this
16        stuff if he wanted to.
17             MR. DANDAR:  And I believe Mr. Minton --
18        well --
19             MR. WEINBERG:  No, he didn't.  He said he
20        didn't think he did anything wrong in Nigeria.
21             THE COURT:  I'm going to allow it.  Overruled.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.  Just --
23        A    Mr. Minton never disclosed to me the exact figure
24   of how much money he made from doing the debt buyback for
25   the government of Nigeria.



 

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1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    And did Mr. Minton go to Howard University and
3   explain to the Nigerian professors and students about what
4   his Nigerian buyback program was all about?
5        A    Yes.  This was again a private investigator
6   working on behalf of Scientology in Nigeria, started
7   spreading this idea that something illegal had happened in
8   the debt buyback; that somehow Bob had absconded with maybe
9   a billion dollars or some other thing, or some other crooked
10   regime.
11             And they used a soccer star, John Fashanu.
12   Feds -- the -- the investigator said this to Fashanu.
13   Fashanu then used his connections.  And he was paid to go
14   around doing this noisy investigation stuff, by, number one,
15   spreading false allegations, allegations that couldn't be
16   proven.
17             And this finally culminated -- I met with a
18   government official from Nigeria in Leipzig, Germany -- I
19   guess it was in 2001.  I guess it was in 2001.  And it was
20   decided at that point that John Fashanu and his people would
21   show up at Howard University in D.C. and we would debate
22   this and Bob would explain to all concerned, Howard
23   professional students and Howard professors who were
24   familiar with the economic scene in Nigeria -- I guess some
25   people were upset about that because there is some



 

123
1   criminality over there.
2             But we set it up to be in a hall in Washington,
3   D.C.  And strangely enough, John Fashanu never showed up.
4             But I sat in a meeting with those Nigerian people
5   at that university for many hours as Bob went through a
6   stack of paper like this, showing them exactly how the deal
7   was done, who was involved, how much debt buyback they did;
8   what was their percentage of the company; how that was
9   split.  I mean, he took the time to go through this very
10   painstakingly --
11             THE COURT:  This must be -- this must have been
12        videotaped by Mr. Bunker, is that true?
13             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
14             THE COURT:  Because it's all on videotape and
15        it's all going to be turned over pursuant to the
16        court order.  If you want a copy of it, you can get
17        it.  You can get it.
18   BY MR. DANDAR:
19        Q    My question is, did the false allegations against
20   Mr. Minton by Scientology on the Nigerian deal -- how did
21   Mr. Minton react to those allegations?
22        A    He was very disturbed by it, greatly upset.  He
23   was upset over the fact that he had -- was in the process of
24   losing his best, best friend, who he had been in business
25   with many years, Jeff Selman (sic), who was afraid of



 

124
1   Scientology's power and influence.
2        Q    Wait a minute.  Jeff Selman?
3        A    Jeff --
4        Q    Schmidt.
5        A    -- Schmidt.
6             I'm sorry.  I'm sorry.  I'm talking too fast.
7             He was very upset about that.  He was very upset
8   about them contacting his other partner in South Africa
9   whose name was Selman.  And Bob Minton was disturbed over
10   the fact that he knew that there was corruption itself in
11   Nigeria, and if you paid enough money around, you could kind
12   of get any kind of trouble started you wanted.
13        Q    Are you aware of any kind of trouble that was
14   started with Nigeria in reference to the Swiss government?
15        A    I know that certain allegations were brought in
16   Nigeria.  And the private investigator working on
17   Scientology's behalf did go to Switzerland, talked to
18   prosecutors, talked to law enforcement, and to use whatever
19   sway or ability that they had to try to get charges brought
20   against Bob in --
21             MR. WEINBERG:  Can we just identify the source
22        of your information?
23             THE WITNESS:  Of which -- which --
24             MR. WEINBERG:  You just said that investigators
25        and all this did this in Switzerland.  And I just



 

125
1        would -- I ask, your Honor, for the source of it.
2             THE WITNESS:  Oh, I'm sorry.  Bob Minton.
3   BY MR. DANDAR:
4        Q    And did Bob Minton --
5             THE COURT:  It's all in Stacy Brooks' time
6        line.
7             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  I know.
9             THE COURT:  I mean, it's all in evidence
10        already.
11             MR. DANDAR:  But this man's under oath.
12             THE COURT:  Yeah.  I know.  And that's why I'm
13        allowing it.  I mean, it's all in evidence.
14   BY MR. DANDAR:
15        Q    And did Mr. Minton -- how did he react to a
16   private investigator making contact with the Swiss
17   prosecutor?
18        A    He was shocked.  He -- his -- his -- you know, I
19   think Mr. Minton approached at least some of his dealings
20   with Scientology in a bit of a naive way.  He couldn't
21   conceptualize the fact that this could possibly happen to
22   him.  He couldn't conceptualize that somehow he would be
23   fighting for his credibility, his standing in the different
24   countries and communities that he had done successful
25   business with, to now have to go back and -- and kind of



 

126
1   resolve things all over again.
2        Q    What period of time was it when you or Mr. Minton
3   first realized that there was a private investigator
4   contacting the Swiss prosecutors?
5        A    You know, from my recollection, I remember maybe
6   late 2000, 2001, early 2001, there was an incident where the
7   prosecutors in Switzerland had been contacted.  Bob hired an
8   attorney or whoever to represent himself.  The situation was
9   sorted out.  But then it came up again.
10        Q    When?
11        A    I think this is after the Howard University --
12   either shortly before or right after, to the best of my
13   recollection.
14        Q    Is that 2001?
15        A    Yes.
16        Q    And was there anything else besides the Nigerian
17   and the Swiss prosecutors -- was there anything else that
18   came to your attention concerning Bob Minton being -- having
19   a noisy investigation done of him by Scientology?
20        A    Yes.  There's another instances of it.
21             Bob had a interest or stock or something in a car
22   dealership.  I believe it was in Boston.  And Scientology
23   investigators went around and spoke to the principals at the
24   car dealership.  And at the end of that, they no longer
25   wanted to do business with Mr. Minton.  They didn't feel



 

127
1   like it was safe.  It was putting the company in jeopardy to
2   have investigators running around making these sorts of
3   allegations.  And so he lost that business venture.
4        Q    That was a Lexus dealership, correct?
5        A    Correct.
6        Q    It wasn't some old used car lot on the corner.
7        A    No.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Just for the record, is all this
9        based on conversations with Mr. Minton?
10             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, it is.
11   BY MR. DANDAR:
12        Q    And how did Mr. Minton feel about losing his
13   partnership in a Lexus dealership in New England?
14        A    He just broke down and cried.  He was like, how is
15   it possible to live in a country like America and not be
16   able to stop this, to turn this off in some way?
17        Q    What about any other noisy investigations?
18        A    I guess they went to his mother's house and
19   basically told his mother that he's crazy and needed to be
20   incarcerated, and to somehow get the family together to try
21   to get some kind of incarceration going, or at least get
22   that idea going something was seriously wrong with Bob.
23        Q    Did you know that Mr. Minton's father had placed
24   him, I think when he was 16, for a few days in a mental
25   institution of some kind?



 

128
1        A    Yes.  He -- he told me about that.
2        Q    So how did Mr. Minton react to Scientology going
3   to his mother and trying to get her and the family to put
4   Mr. Minton incarcerated in a mental institution?
5        A    He was very upset about that.  He was -- his
6   viewpoint was, you know, "If they don't like me, then talk
7   to me, but don't go to my family."  You know, I guess his
8   mother's in a rest home.  She's actually quite old and would
9   probably never understand these things if you explained it
10   to her for 10 years.  And he didn't see the -- it was just
11   pure harassment, intimidation.
12        Q    Did he just get mad about it or did he get excited
13   about it or did he get depressed about it?
14        A    Well, Bob would consult attorneys.  He would -- I
15   mean, I've met almost as many attorneys with Bob as I did
16   with Scientology.  I mean, it was always having -- Helen
17   Dorr (phonetic), when he would go up there, "This is what
18   they've done now.  They've gone to my mother.  They've done
19   this.  They've done that.  Is there anything else I can do?
20   Can law enforcement somehow become involved?  Will someone
21   open up an investigation to --" and of course, nothing.
22             So Bob's answer to do something was to picket.
23   He's like, "Okay.  They keep doing this stuff, they want to
24   do this stuff, I'm going to picket.  I'm going to picket.
25   I'm going to make a sign."  Because that was his last line



 

129
1   of defense.  That was the last thing that he could legally
2   do to say, "Hey, look, I don't like what you're doing and
3   I'm showing it."
4        Q    Did Bob Minton -- how long have you known Bob
5   Minton?
6        A    Since the summer of 1998.
7        Q    Okay.  Since the summer of 1998 until today, has
8   Bob Minton ever picketed and told you or anyone in your
9   hearing, "Let's go picket so we can help Ken Dandar win the
10   Lisa McPherson death case"?
11        A    No.  Bob -- no.  When he -- a lot of -- often --
12   more often than not when he would get on these things that
13   he wanted to picket, it was in response to something that
14   was specifically -- that he perceived was being done against
15   him by Scientology.
16        Q    How did Bob Minton react when his daughters were
17   followed back to or from school in boston?
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to the form of the
19        question.  Mr. Dandar is testifying.
20             THE COURT:  Sustained.
21             MR. DANDAR:  Sustained.  I agree with that,
22        Judge.
23             THE COURT:  Well, good.  I'm glad you do.
24   BY MR. DANDAR:
25        Q    Did you ever hear about Bob Minton expressing any



 

130
1   statement concerning his daughters being followed?
2        A    Yes.  He told me that his -- his daughters and his
3   wife had gone out, I think, to the theater or something
4   or -- or some school event or something, and they were
5   followed.  And when they came home, their neighborhood was
6   papered with fliers that were distributed about him having
7   some --
8             THE COURT:  You know, I'm wondering why we are
9        hearing this hearsay.  A lot of this just confirms
10        what Mr. Minton has already testified to.
11             MR. DANDAR:  Oh, Mr. Minton said he would just
12        get angry; he wasn't afraid; he wasn't concerned; he
13        wasn't depressed.
14             THE COURT:  Okay.  Well, then, how he
15        responded -- we don't need to have Mr. Prince relate
16        what Mr. Minton has already related.
17             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.  All right.
18   BY MR. DANDAR:
19        Q    How did Mr. Minton respond --
20             THE COURT:  At least I don't think.  Now,
21        obviously, you can bring in hearsay for impeachment
22        if Mr. Minton told him something different from what
23        he said in court.
24             MR. DANDAR:  That's what --
25             THE COURT:  But I think much of what we've gone



 

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1        over here is stuff that Mr. Minton has said the same
2        thing.
3             MR. DANDAR:  My intention is to see if there's
4        something different, what he told Mr. Prince
5        compared to what he told you.
6             THE COURT:  Okay.
7             MR. DANDAR:  And I'm trying to -- I'll do it
8        quicker, though.
9             THE COURT:  Well, I hope you know -- and if,
10        you know, you don't really have to let me hear it
11        all.  Just let me hear what's different if there is
12        anything different.
13   BY MR. DANDAR:
14        Q    Okay.  Did Mr. Minton express to you that he was
15   concerned when his one daughter was followed to a
16   girlfriend's house in Long Island?
17             MR. WEINBERG:  It's the same objection.
18        A    Yes, he did.
19             MR. WEINBERG:  He's testifying again.  You
20        know, "When -- such -- such and such happened."  I
21        mean, that's just testifying.
22             MR. DANDAR:  I'm trying to make it a little
23        faster.
24             THE COURT:  Yeah.  I'm going to --
25             MR. WEINBERG:  He can ask him what his reaction



 

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1        was to whatever it was that he told you.
2             MR. DANDAR:  All right.  Well, then, I'll ask
3        more questions so this will go longer.  But okay.
4   BY MR. DANDAR:
5        Q    Did Mr. Minton tell you about his daughter being
6   followed to Long Island?
7        A    Yes, he did.
8        Q    And how did Mr. Minton -- did he tell you how --
9   what he thought about that?
10        A    He -- he called me on the phone and he said,
11   "Jesse, you won't believe what they're doing now.  They're
12   going after my daughters."  "Oh.  What happened?"  "Well,
13   she was followed," or, "They papered the neighborhood," or,
14   you know, "They're passing leaflets out.  They're talking to
15   their friends," his daughter's associates, parents, or
16   different people, you know, and just kind of doing their
17   noisy investigation.  And this was apparently quite
18   upsetting to his wife, Therese, who would always -- Bob said
19   she would ask, "Well, what are you going to do about it?
20   Well, this can't happen.  How do you make this stop?"
21        Q    So --
22        A    So he had a lot of pressure.
23        Q    Okay.  Did he ever -- after all of these noisy
24   investigations, did Bob Minton ever appear to you to be a
25   tough guy about it or not a tough guy?



 

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1        A    Well, in the beginning he seemed to be quite a
2   tough guy.  But as it -- as it progressed -- I mean, that --
3   that time track that was submitted as an -- as an exhibit,
4   those were instances where we actually could find some type
5   of documentation that proved what the time track said.
6   There are many instances where things happened where we
7   couldn't have or find the documentation.  So for anyone
8   to -- to have that much done to them, I mean, even in my
9   time I have never seen such a concerted effort to destroy an
10   individual.
11        Q    That time line, did you help put it together?
12        A    I -- I have -- yes, I did.
13        Q    Okay.  And have you read the entire time line?
14        A    I'm sure I have at some point.
15        Q    And when you read the time line, was it accurate?
16        A    Yes, it was.
17        Q    Now, go back to Exhibit 109 --
18             MR. WEINBERG:  Objection to that.  Accurate
19        based on conversations with somebody?  He just said
20        this time line, which we all know was --
21             THE COURT:  Very, very thick.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  -- exaggerated --
23             THE COURT:  Yeah.  Most of that would have been
24        through hearsay information.
25



 

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1   BY MR. DANDAR:
2        Q    Was it -- was it accurate through what Mr. Minton
3   told you?
4        A    Well -- well, again, I will just state for the
5   record that the information that was put in that time line
6   was information that could be substantiated in other ways.
7   So there is many things that couldn't be substantiated.
8   Therefore, it's not there.  But everything that was there,
9   the intent was to be able to substantiate everything there
10   with documentation.
11        Q    So Mr. Minton told you there are more things that
12   happened to him that are not in the time line?
13        A    Sure.  I mean, and I've witnessed it myself.
14        Q    Like what?
15        A    One time he invited me to New Hampshire -- I think
16   it was maybe the 4th of July.  The 4th of July.  We were up
17   there; myself, Mr. Minton, his wife, Therese, his children.
18   We were having a barbecue in the back.  Scientologists came
19   in their cars, started picketing and screaming from the
20   road, "Where's Stacy?"  You know, this is one thing that
21   they really liked to do; tell -- make sure that Bob's wife
22   knew that he was having an affair with Stacy Brooks.
23        Q    Well, she knew, didn't she?
24        A    Yes, she did.
25        Q    So they're yelling this in front of the children.



 

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1        A    Correct.
2        Q    What else would they yell besides, "Where's
3   Stacy?"
4        A    That he was crazy.
5             There came a point in time where somehow they were
6   able to get some of his psychiatric information from his
7   psychiatrists and speak to him about that.  And I mean at
8   first Mr. Minton was just amazed that these could even
9   happen; that it was even possible for an organization or an
10   individual or any -- for this to be able to happen to a
11   citizen in America.  But then again, as time went on, he
12   wore down more and more and more, I guess.  The threat
13   became -- I mean, he was just spending so much money
14   defending himself in, you know, three or four countries at
15   one time.
16        Q    Now, let me -- since you mentioned psychiatric
17   records, let me jump -- let me jump to August -- well,
18   June -- August of 2001.  Do you recall Mr. Minton being
19   upset about records that were put on the Internet, with his
20   wife, his children and himself?
21        A    Yes.
22        Q    What type of records?
23        A    His counseling records from seeing a psychiatrist;
24   I guess information about what kind of medication he had
25   been taking and this kind of thing.



 

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1        Q    And did you talk to him about that?
2        A    Yes, I did.
3        Q    And was he scheduled to appear in a deposition in
4   Clearwater the next day?
5        A    I think we're talking about two separate
6   incidents.
7        Q    Okay.  Which one are you talking about?
8        A    Something that preceded the hearing that had to
9   happen in Clearwater.
10        Q    Okay.  I'm talking about a deposition --
11        A    Okay.
12        Q    -- all right?
13             Are you aware that he was ordered to appear, in
14   the breach case in Clearwater, for deposition taken by
15   Mr. Rosen?
16        A    Yes.
17        Q    All right.  Are you aware that he did -- he failed
18   to appear?
19        A    Yes.
20        Q    All right.  Did he tell you why he failed to
21   appear?
22        A    Yes, he did.
23        Q    And what did he say?
24        A    Mr. Minton didn't have a lot of confidence in the
25   justice system as it was being administered in Florida here.



 

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1   He felt that as far as discovery was concerned, that they
2   were able to pretty much get away with murder.  And he knew
3   that Scientology was not going to stop until he was
4   completely eliminated as an -- as an individual.  I mean,
5   part of their policy is to, if possible, of course, ruin the
6   person utterly.
7             THE COURT:  Was he concerned --
8             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor?
9             THE COURT:  -- about that or was he concerned
10        about the fact that the discovery was going to
11        uncover the fact that he had illegal -- or he had
12        bank accounts outside of this country and money that
13        was coming into this country that he wasn't paying
14        taxes on?
15             THE WITNESS:  Your Honor, he may have had that
16        as a consideration, but it wasn't anything that I
17        was personally aware of.
18             THE COURT:  Well, what was it about the fact
19        that the church was going to find this out or that
20        the fact that the -- that the courts were allowing
21        the church to pursue discovery based on their
22        allegations in the counterclaim that had Mr. Minton
23        so upset?
24             THE WITNESS:  Mr. Minton said that he felt that
25        if he came to Florida, that he was going to go to



 

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1        jail.  He had been being told that he was going to
2        jail.  He -- he --
3             THE COURT:  It was because he was the one that
4        was thumbing his nose at the justice system in the
5        state of Florida, wasn't it?
6             THE WITNESS:  Yes.  Yes, ma'am.
7             THE COURT:  It's because he was the one coming
8        down here and saying that -- he was just acting like
9        a jerk in his discovery depositions, flaunting
10        himself at the justice system, taking the Fifth
11        Amendment when he'd already published it on the
12        Internet, and expecting, I suppose, that we were so
13        stupid that we wouldn't know enough that he'd waived
14        it.  And then, of course, when the judges said that
15        he had indeed waived it and he could no longer hide
16        behind the Fifth Amendment, that he started getting
17        real worried, didn't he?
18             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
19             THE COURT:  Yeah.
20             THE WITNESS:  He became --
21             THE COURT:  Because the church and therefore
22        the courts were going to get pretty knowledgeable
23        about what he had, moneywise --
24             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
25             THE COURT:  -- overseas.



 

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1             THE WITNESS:  Correct.  And here in the United
2        States.
3             He was concerned that if Scientology was
4        allowed to have access to his different bank
5        accounts, that he would end up fighting another war
6        with Scientology as he did with the John Fashanu
7        fiasco, and he was just tired of it.
8             THE COURT:  Did he talk to you about -- it
9        wasn't any -- it wasn't any secret, was it, that
10        Mr. Minton was a multi-millionaire?
11             THE WITNESS:  No.
12             THE COURT:  Everybody knew that.
13             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
14             THE COURT:  He doled out millions of dollars to
15        fight Scientology.
16             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
17             THE COURT:  Came into court pretty proud,
18        throwing out over $10 million.  And everybody knew
19        that, right?
20             THE WITNESS:  Well, I didn't know that it had
21        been that much, your Honor, myself.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.  But I mean, he had doled
23        out --
24             THE WITNESS:  Millions.
25             THE COURT:  -- millions.



 

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1             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
2             THE COURT:  And everybody knew he had doled out
3        millions.
4             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
5             THE COURT:  So the fact that this Church of
6        Scientology was getting ready to find out that he
7        had doled out millions --
8             THE WITNESS:  Well, you know, there's another
9        aspect to this, your Honor.  And the aspect is this:
10             Bob Minton, in his mind, always tried to keep
11        his family separate from his activities.  He was
12        ready to exhaust every personal resource that he had
13        for himself to keep the fight going, but he was not
14        willing to risk that for his wife and his children.
15        And so when the wife and children became a factor I
16        guess something happened.
17             THE COURT:  I don't have any qualms about your
18        talking about the fact that Mr. Minton was upset
19        about his medical records being put on the Internet;
20        I don't have any qualms about your saying Mr. Minton
21        was upset about his children being followed, about
22        his business associates being contacted and what
23        have you.  I have no doubt that he was upset about
24        that and what have you.
25             But as far as his being upset with the justice



 

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1        system in the state of Florida, the reason I'm upset
2        about that is because Mr. Minton himself is what
3        caused many of his own problems, right?
4             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
5             THE COURT:  And then when it looked like they
6        were going to find out some stuff that was really
7        going to get him in a problem, then he had a problem
8        with the justice system.
9             THE WITNESS:  I assume that, yes.
10   BY MR. DANDAR:
11        Q    Did he ever --
12             THE COURT:  But before he had problems with the
13        justice system, he was plenty happy to play with it,
14        jerk us around, come when he felt like it, answer
15        what questions he felt like, right?
16             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
17             THE COURT:  Until people in the justice system
18        here in the state of Florida said, "Bob Minton,
19        you're not going to play with our justice system
20        here.  We're in charge," right?
21             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
22             THE COURT:  That caused him a great deal of
23        concern.
24             THE WITNESS:  And I guess that he was mainly
25        concerned because he knew that he would not answer



 

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1        specific questions.  And he felt that if he came
2        into court and he was asked those questions that he
3        had made a conviction that he wasn't going to
4        answer, that he wasn't going to answer them anyway,
5        and he was just going to go to jail.
6             THE COURT:  And he could rest assured on that;
7        that if this court or any other court that I'm aware
8        of in my circuit told him to answer a question and
9        he said no, he would have gone to jail until he
10        answered it.  And there is no question about that.
11        And I am sure that any inquiry that Mr. Minton
12        asked, he was told that.
13             THE WITNESS:  Correct.
14             THE COURT:  Right.
15             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
16             THE COURT:  No wonder he was upset with the
17        justice system here, the way -- and the games that
18        he was playing.
19   BY MR. DANDAR:
20        Q    Did he talk to you about trying to figure out a
21   way not to come to court when he was ordered to appear for
22   deposition?
23        A    I think I may have had that conversation with
24   Stacy Brooks.
25        Q    Okay.  What did she tell you?  'Cause she's also a



 

143
1   witness in this case.
2        A    She told me that --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Just for the record, I'm
4        objecting to hearsay, but -- I understand what the
5        judge's rulings have been, but at this --
6             THE COURT:  Okay.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  All this testimony is hearsay.
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    What did she tell you?
10        A    She told me that Bob was extremely upset; that he
11   was kind of in a -- a state -- a mental state like -- I
12   don't know -- having a breakdown of some sort, and she
13   wanted him to go see a professional.
14             I guess something had happened at that time where
15   the -- again, something happened with the children when he
16   was supposed to come down.  I think the neighborhood got
17   leafletted again or something happened with the kids again.
18   And the questions themselves, that he became very
19   distraught.
20             Stacy mentioned having him go see a professional,
21   a psychologist or a psychiatrist or something, and he -- he
22   didn't really want to do that.  He didn't want to do that.
23   So -- so that was Stacy's angle of, like, "Okay, well, we
24   need to get him to a professional and get him excused from
25   coming to the deposition."



 

144
1        Q    And did Diane Palermo's name come up in that
2   conversation?
3        A    Yes, it did.
4        Q    And was Diane Palermo, as far as you know, a
5   mental health therapist?
6        A    No, she is not.
7        Q    What is she?
8        A    As far as I knew, a social worker.
9        Q    And was she ever Mr. Minton's social worker?
10        A    Not that I'm aware of.  I kind of doubt it.
11        Q    And are you aware, from speaking with Bob Minton
12   or Stacy Brooks, what Stacy Brooks had tried to get Diane
13   Palermo to do?
14        A    Yes.  Stacy Brooks tried to get Diane Palermo to
15   do some kind of an analysis of Bob Minton's mental state
16   and -- and give him advice that would preclude him from
17   coming to the deposition.
18        Q    And did Diane Palermo agree to do that?
19        A    No.  Not at all.
20        Q    And so what did Stacy Brooks do next to try to get
21   an excuse --
22             THE COURT:  I know the answer to that and so
23        does everybody in this courtroom.  We don't need to
24        hear it again.
25             THE WITNESS:  Okay.



 

145
1             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
2             THE COURT:  This is in Stacy Brooks' affidavit?
3             MR. DANDAR:  Pardon me?
4             THE COURT:  Is it in Stacy Brooks' affidavit?
5             MR. DANDAR:  I don't think it's in there.  Not
6        this way.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  She testified about it and
8        Mr. Minton testified about it.  I think it's all
9        over the place.
10             MR. DANDAR:  They're calling her a mental
11        health therapist who told him not to travel.
12             THE COURT:  You already got that out.  He said
13        she's not a mental health therapist.
14             MR. DANDAR:  All right.
15             THE COURT:  But Stacy Brooks filed something
16        before Judge Baird.
17             MR. DANDAR:  Yes, she did.  That affidavit.
18             THE COURT:  That affidavit is what I'm talking
19        about.
20             God, I know this case good, don't I?
21             MR. DANDAR:  Yes, you do.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  Better than --
23   BY MR. DANDAR:
24        Q    And did you see that Stacy Brooks affidavit about
25   trying to make an excuse for Mr. Minton?



 

146
1        A    No, sir.  I did not.
2        Q    Okay.  Do you know that Stacy Brooks called Steve
3   Hassan?
4        A    Steve Hassan?  Yes.
5        Q    And tried to get him to write an excuse letter?
6        A    Yes.
7        Q    Even though he's never talked to Bob Minton
8   about --
9             MR. WEINBERG:  Excuse me, your Honor.  Again,
10        this is all based on conversations with Stacy
11        Brooks.  I mean, we're --
12             THE COURT:  But this is kind of impeachment, so
13        this is what you got to do.  In other words, if
14        Stacy Brooks comes in to court and says one thing in
15        front of me and this -- she's told something
16        different to this man --
17             MR. WEINBERG:  I don't think she told anything
18        different --
19             THE COURT:  Yes, she did, about that.
20             MR. WEINBERG:  About --
21             THE COURT:  Overruled.
22             MR. WEINBERG:  All right.
23   BY MR. DANDAR:
24        Q    And did she ask Steve Hassan to write a letter?
25        A    She asked Steve Hassan to become involved, and he



 

147
1   declined, based on the fact that Bob was not a patient of
2   his.  Bob -- they had no prior history or discussions
3   about -- you know, Bob hadn't mentioned to him about
4   anything.  And of course I think it was kind of obvious that
5   this was a last-ditch effort to -- for Bob not to come down
6   for the deposition.
7        Q    But Bob Minton in truth was really, really
8   emotionally upset about what he saw on the Internet.
9        A    Yes.  He was crying --
10             THE COURT:  Bob Minton didn't come down for the
11        deposition, did he?
12             THE WITNESS:  I don't believe he did.  No, he
13        didn't.
14             THE COURT:  Then I guess --
15             THE WITNESS:  No.  He went to the hospital
16        because he --
17             Okay.  Now -- okay.  I'm remembering this.
18             THE COURT:  Isn't this what Judge Baird found
19        him in contempt for?
20             THE WITNESS:  Yes.
21             THE COURT:  Why Lord have mercy, why a judge,
22        why, imagine that; this justice system, when
23        Mr. Minton flaunted a demand and a command and an
24        order from a court to come here and he didn't come,
25        I guess he had every right to be upset at our system



 

148
1        of justice because some judge took great offense and
2        held him in contempt.  Dear, dear.
3   BY MR. DANDAR:
4        Q    All right.  Let me -- let me go and look at
5   Exhibit 109 --
6        A    But you know, Bob ended up going to the hospital.
7   He was -- he started having chest pains or something, and he
8   was in the hospital for a couple three days --
9        Q    Okay.
10        A    -- under observation by a doctor.  And I do
11   believe that on the day that he was supposed to appear for
12   contempt that he was in the hospital.
13        Q    All right.  Let me have you look back at 109
14   again.
15        A    Okay.
16        Q    You identified the first page.  What about the
17   second page entitled --
18        A    -- Intelligence Actions.
19        Q    Yes.
20        A    Yes.
21        Q    Are you familiar with that?
22        A    Yes, I am.
23             This is kind of a routine that happens in
24   intelligence in Scientology on any -- anything that's a
25   threat or -- or an attack on Scientology.  This policy kind



 

149
1   of comes into play, where you investigate, you do your ODC,
2   overt data collection; CDC, covert data collection.  You do
3   your noisy investigation.  You find some skeleton.  And if
4   you can't find it, you manufacture something.  And you use
5   that to sue for peace.
6        Q    Is there something in here that talks about
7   manufacturing a skeleton if you can't find it?
8        A    Not in this particular one.  But you were -- I
9   think the one that you're referring to, as far as
10   manufacturing information against an individual, would lie
11   in the department of government affairs for which you just
12   have one page of.
13        Q    Yeah.  I see we've got two pages of the same
14   thing.
15        A    Yeah.  But if I turn one -- two pages back and I
16   go to what's listed here --
17             THE WITNESS:  And I think it's very hard to
18        see, your Honor.  It goes from page 484 in this
19        statement packet -- two pages away from government
20        affairs --
21             THE COURT:  Okay.
22   BY MR. DANDAR:
23        Q    Government affairs --
24             Wait.  Let me just correct it now.
25        A    No, wait a minute.  Wait a minute.  Wait a minute.



 

150
1        Q    All right.
2             THE COURT:  Isn't this something; they're just
3        fussing with each other?
4             MR. DANDAR:  You can see we rehearsed all this.
5             THE WITNESS:  See, I'll show you.  Okay.  I'll
6        find it for you.
7             THE COURT:  You find it.
8             THE WITNESS:  I'll find it for you.
9             Here's the department of government affairs.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11             THE WITNESS:  And this is page 483.  And then
12        this is put in there and this is put in there.  But
13        then we get back to page 484, where it says right
14        here, "If attacked on some vulnerable point by
15        anyone or anything or any organization, always find
16        or manufacture enough threat against them to cause
17        them to sue for peace."
18             THE COURT:  Okay.  This is page --
19             This is not in order, Mr. Dandar.
20             MR. DANDAR:  I'm going to fix it.  I'd like to
21        fix it now.
22             THE COURT:  Well, maybe you could fix it before
23        you introduce it.
24             MR. DANDAR:  I will.
25             THE COURT:  If there is going to be Exhibit 409



 

151
1        (sic), you better have this 409-A, B --
2             MR. DANDAR:  109.
3             THE COURT:  I'm sorry.  109.
4             MR. DANDAR:  That's what I'll do.  I'll label
5        them.
6             THE COURT:  Okay.
7             MR. DANDAR:  I can see where the extra pages --
8             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm lost.
9             THE COURT:  It's page 484, which is not after
10        page 483.  It's about four pages back.
11             MR. WEINBERG:  Okay.
12             THE COURT:  It says, if you will look --
13             Well, where was that?
14             MR. DANDAR:  Exhibit 4 is in there twice.
15             THE WITNESS:  Let me see.  It's in the third
16        paragraph.
17             THE COURT:  Show me where you're reading from.
18             MR. WEINBERG:  I see it.  It's the third
19        paragraph.
20             THE COURT:  Okay.  "If attacked on some
21        vulnerable point by anyone or anything or any
22        organization, always find or manufacture enough
23        threat against them to cause them to sue for peace."
24             What is this?
25             THE WITNESS:  This is a policy letter, your



 

152
1        Honor.  This is a church policy letter that is a
2        policy letter for the department of government
3        affairs, which is a department or a section or a
4        unit within the Scientology organization, that
5        basically talks about -- you know, things having to
6        do with tax matters, legal activities, whatever, for
7        an organization.
8             THE COURT:  What does the term "sue for peace"
9        mean?
10             THE WITNESS:  To my knowledge, it means
11        basically that a person just wants to end
12        what's-ever happening and let's just settle it and
13        all walk away as happy as possible.
14   BY MR. DANDAR:
15        Q    Like a disengagement?
16        A    Yes.
17             MR. DANDAR:  Judge, I've marked mine, and I'd
18        like to mark the clerk's copy with the letters.
19             THE WITNESS:  And you see we -- I think -- I
20        can help you put this in order here, because you got
21        the pages --
22             MR. WEINBERG:  What I did was I eliminated
23        the -- the Intelligence Action, second page, it
24        looked like the same thing that was --
25             THE COURT:  Yeah.  The second Intelligence



 

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1        Actions, right?
2             MR. WEINBERG:  I threw that one out.  They were
3        the same as the first one.  And then I reordered,
4        what you did, 483, 484, 485.  And I assume
5        everything else is the same.
6             THE WITNESS:  I've -- so this is the whole
7        document right there, these three pages.
8   BY MR. DANDAR:
9        Q    Okay.  Look at the next part, where it's
10   previously marked in another deposition, as Exhibit 6, about
11   "make sure that's all in order."
12        A    Okay.
13        Q    First of all, do you identify that document?
14        A    Yes.  This is also a document that's relevant to
15   PR, legal intelligence.
16        Q    And what is that called?
17        A    Public Investigations Section.
18        Q    Public investigation.
19        A    Correct.
20        Q    What's that?
21        A    This would be investigating individuals outside of
22   Scientology using outside agencies.
23             I have to take a moment to look at this.
24        Q    All right.
25             THE COURT:  I'll tell you what.  This looks



 

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1        like something too long to read here to have any
2        meaningful talk.  Let's quit for the day.  I'm
3        tired.
4             MR. WEINBERG:  I'm tired.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Okay.
6             THE COURT:  It's quarter to 5.  If you will
7        read this over tonight, and we'll continue on.
8             In the meantime, have these marked by the clerk
9        as 109-A, B, C, D, so we know what you're referring
10        to.
11             THE WITNESS:  Okay.  And I have -- I have the
12        clerk's copies here.
13             THE COURT:  Okay.  If you'll -- do you have a
14        copy for your witness to look at?
15             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
16             THE COURT:  All right.  Mr. Prince, while you
17        are on the witness stand, you are in rather a unique
18        position.  You not only are under the rule, which
19        means that you can't talk to any other witness about
20        your testimony --
21             THE WITNESS:  Right.
22             THE COURT:  -- nor can they talk to you about
23        theirs, but while you are on the witness stand, you
24        are not permitted to speak to anyone about the case,
25        including Mr. Dandar or counsel for the other side,



 

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1        all right?
2             THE WITNESS:  Yes, sir.
3             THE COURT:  Now, I may, if I'm gone and
4        Mr. Prince isn't done and I'm gone for two weeks,
5        let him out from under that, just like I did other
6        people when it was going to be, like, long weekends
7        or what have you.  But not for tonight.
8             THE WITNESS:  Yes, ma'am.
9             THE COURT:  And I really think, Mr. Dandar,
10        that you ought to be able to get through this a
11        little faster.  We don't need -- you can go quickly
12        through those things that your experts have already
13        testified to.  And I presume his testimony would be
14        the same.
15             MR. DANDAR:  Yes.
16             I'm going to go through the PC folders and --
17        which is I gave him that affidavit that you haven't
18        seen apparently before.
19             THE WITNESS:  But this is the clerk's.  This
20        has to go back to her.
21             MR. DANDAR:  And I'll show him that as well.
22             THE COURT:  Okay.
23             MR. DANDAR:  Exhibit 108.
24             And then we're going to talk about Mr. Minton,
25        the LMT, and what transpired in 2002.



 

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1             THE COURT:  You're never going to finish
2        tomorrow, I'll bet you, but --
3             MR. WEINBERG:  Plus he's got Mr. Haney set in
4        the morning.
5             MR. DANDAR:  I have Mr. Haney in the morning.
6             THE COURT:  Okay.
7             MR. WEINBERG:  So we're obviously not going to.
8             MR. DANDAR:  And he should be short.
9             MR. WEINBERG:  But I will not necessarily be
10        brief with Mr. Prince, but I don't know yet.
11             THE COURT:  Well, it doesn't really matter.  I
12        don't think he's going to be brief either.
13             MR. WEINBERG:  Right.
14             THE COURT:  Because we've got a lot of ground
15        to cover with Mr. Prince.  And frankly, we're not to
16        any of the issues.
17             MR. WEINBERG:  No.
18             THE COURT:  But thank you, sir.  You may step
19        down, remembering the rule I just gave you about
20        while you're a witness on the stand.
21             THE WITNESS:  Yes, your Honor.
22             THE COURT:  If you will remind me Wednesday
23        afternoon when we break for over two weeks,
24        Mr. Dandar, better yet -- I shouldn't have to rely
25        on this witness -- if you will remind me, since he



 

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1        is an expert of yours or a consulting witness or
2        whatever he is, I may allow you to have some
3        discussions with him since we're going to be in
4        recess on this hearing for two weeks.
5             MR. DANDAR:  Thank you, Judge.
6             THE COURT:  But you're going to have to remind
7        me so I can decide that.
8             MR. WEINBERG:  We would like to speak to that
9        particular issue.
10             THE COURT:  Okay.
11          (An overnight recess was taken at 4:50 p.m.)
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1
2                    REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3
4   STATE OF FLORIDA         )
5   COUNTY OF PINELLAS       )
6             I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
authorized to and did stenographically report the
7   proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
8
I further certify that I am not a relative,
9   employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10   counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
11
12   WITNESS my hand and official seal this 19th day of June,
13   2002.
14
15                             ______________________________
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR
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