0467 1 2 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 4 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 Testimony of Jesse Prince. 17 DATE: July 9, 2002. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 22 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 23 24 25 0468 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MR. LEE FUGATE and 12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MR. STEPHEN WEIN BATTAGLIA ROSS DICUS & WEIN 20 980 Tyrone Blvd. St. Petersburg, FL 33743 21 Attorney for Mr. Minton. 22 23 24 25 0469 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 Recess 535 10 Recess 580 3 4 Reporter's Certificate 581 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0470 1 (The proceedings resumed at 10:05 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Mr. Wein, you're here for 3 Mr. Battaglia, who's filing a notice of appearance 4 for Mr. Minton, is that right? 5 MR. WEIN: Correct. 6 THE COURT: I had mentioned to him yesterday 7 that I believed there had been a motion to dismiss 8 filed. He indicated that he thought he knew that. 9 This is my courtesy copy of that motion. I'm 10 going to give it to you to take a look at. 11 MR. WEIN: Yes, ma'am. 12 THE COURT: And you know, frankly, we probably 13 need to have that heard. There's still an issue as 14 to whether this Count I, the counterclaim, will be 15 consolidated or not. But for the moment it's not, 16 and I'm not thinking right now that I will. But 17 that certainly has a bearing on it since he hasn't 18 even answered. 19 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. I'll get it copied 20 during the break. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Great. As I said, he may 22 have it, but just in case he doesn't -- 23 But I need that back since that's my copy. 24 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: And so I'm looking for you all to 0471 1 get that scheduled for hearing, okay? 2 MR. WEIN: Yes, ma'am. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Now, I see that we have a 4 couple other matters here that are still 5 outstanding. I hope some of them have been 6 resolved, maybe. 7 We still have the e-mails. Now, there is just 8 no reason in the world why you all can't agree on 9 some of those e-mails on some of those people. I 10 hope you've done that. 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, the one thing I 12 brought up yesterday -- and I think may be 13 resolvable -- is there are -- there are e-mails that 14 I went and looked at, that look -- just at the 15 headers -- that are e-mails for Peter Alexander, 16 who's already testified, and Patricia Greenway and 17 different people, through LMT. And Mr. Dandar, I 18 think, objected to Ms. Greenway's e-mails being 19 produced because he now says she's a trial 20 consultant of his. But of course, at the time that 21 the e-mails were generated, she was not. 22 THE COURT: She wasn't a witness, was she? 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't know if she was a 24 witness then or not. 25 MR. DANDAR: She's not. 0472 1 MR. MOXON: She -- she was -- 2 MR. DANDAR: Never. 3 MR. MOXON: She was subpoenaed and her 4 deposition was started, and it was held in abeyance. 5 Judge Beach indicated that he was going to wait -- 6 based on the court's last comments concerning 7 whether the case was going to be consolidated or 8 not, that he was going to wait on that, on the 9 completion of her deposition, until that was all 10 resolved. 11 THE COURT: Whose witness is she? 12 MR. MOXON: Well, she's not listed on anybody's 13 witness list. 14 THE COURT: Then you don't get her e-mails. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, the problem, Judge, is, the 16 e-mails are -- it's Peter Alexander, slash, Patricia 17 Greenway. Peter Alexander is a -- a witness. As I 18 saw the headers. And so I had marked all those to 19 give Mr. Keane, and then found that, you know, they 20 couldn't be given up due to the fact that Patricia 21 Greenway's name is on the line. 22 I think when you see the -- once -- once we get 23 to rebuttal position and you see these videos, such 24 videos as we now have gotten, you're going to see a 25 totally different image than what I think we were 0473 1 able to -- to put before you, and see the type of 2 activity that's going on that is connected to the 3 case, to the wrongful death case, and to the 4 picketing. And she is in virtually all the videos 5 that I was looking at during the break. And so I 6 think, you know, she well may be -- in fact, I think 7 she will be for sure -- a witness in the 8 counterclaim. 9 But it also goes to -- some of the film video 10 that we saw of Mr. Alexander. Had we had that 11 before he testified, we would have cross examined 12 him. And I think there's going to be like 13 information in the e-mails. And I think it's 14 important that we -- we get them. 15 THE COURT: I don't have any problem with 16 Mr. Alexander. I think he's been listed as a 17 witness. 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE COURT: If she has not, then she is 20 simply -- you don't get people's e-mails just 21 because you want to. 22 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Well -- well, these are the 23 LMT e-mails, now. These are e-mails that were 24 generated out of LMT. 25 THE COURT: I understand. But you still don't 0474 1 get all of LMT's e-mails. You only get LMT's 2 e-mails if there's somebody that is potentially a 3 witness, it would seem to me. I mean, somebody 4 ought to have some privacy in this world beyond 5 everybody under the sun reading their e-mails. 6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I think if they generated 7 them through LMT, and LMT is the subject of the 8 litigation, then -- and they were part of the board 9 of trustees and directors, et cetera, that's a 10 different category than just some citizen. I mean, 11 these are the e-mails that were -- 12 One of the problems that we've had is this is 13 all the information that was being sought in the 14 subpoenas that were basically obstructed. The 15 production was delayed by all the parties. 16 THE COURT: You're going to have to file a 17 motion. He says she's a trial consultant. You 18 wouldn't normally get a trial consultant's e-mails, 19 even if she was a party. So we're going to have to 20 hear it. So I just can't make a ruling on it. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well -- 22 THE COURT: Peter Alexander, I don't have a 23 problem with. 24 MR. FUGATE: It's the same lines. You don't 25 know who wrote the e-mail by looking at the little 0475 1 blurb that Keane has in his notebook. It just says 2 Peter Alexander, slash, Patricia Greenway, to, 3 whoever. 4 THE COURT: Well, then I guess I'll have to 5 read them all. So there you have it. 6 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'll also -- 7 THE COURT: But you can file your motion. 8 MR. FUGATE: -- prepare a motion -- I'll file a 9 motion. 10 THE COURT: Then I can, you know -- it's just 11 too -- when you're all in the cream of things and 12 they're not just crystal clear to me how I need to 13 rule, then I need a motion so I can really think it 14 through. 15 Is she your trial consultant now? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 17 THE COURT: And when was that? 18 MR. DANDAR: The fall of 2001. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, you know, your Honor, I'm 20 sorry, but when this hearing started and 21 Ms. Greenway came up, I said, "Ms. Greenway is 22 obviously his trial consultant," and Mr. Dandar 23 said, "That's a joke." 24 THE COURT: Well -- look, file -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: And we've got it on the record. 0476 1 THE COURT: File your motion, and -- and 2 then -- 3 You know, I'll -- I thought we could resolve 4 this, but we can't. Okay. 5 Who else -- 6 MR. DANDAR: And it's not -- 7 THE COURT: Have we resolved the rest of them? 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm going to have to ask 9 you to let us revisit it at lunchtime, on the 10 videos, because I haven't been able to get in touch 11 with Mr. Keane. So rather than take your time, I'll 12 just check with that. And then over the break, I'll 13 check with Mr. Dandar to see if there's anything 14 else we can -- over the lunch break -- that we can 15 agree to so we don't take up any more time. 16 THE COURT: Okay. How about the e-mails? Have 17 you all agreed to some of the e-mails? 18 MR. MOXON: We've agreed to most of them, your 19 honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. MOXON: In fact, remember after our 22 conference call, Mr. Dandar and I stayed on the 23 line -- 24 THE COURT: Right. 25 MR. MOXON: -- and we agreed which ones would 0477 1 be produced and which ones would be subject to 2 objection. And there were -- there were six names 3 that Mr. Dandar objected to. Ms. Greenway was one 4 of them; he was another, his -- his brother was 5 another. And I understand from Mr. Keane that there 6 are some further communications for which Mr. Dandar 7 was cc'ed, and a bunch of -- and apparently other 8 people are cc'ed too. And pursuant to the court's 9 order, obviously those were not produced because you 10 indicated you wanted to see those first. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. MOXON: And so he told me he's going to 13 bring them by for you -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. MOXON: -- and -- so that you can look at 16 them in camera. 17 THE COURT: Well, maybe the best thing to do is 18 to -- just so that I can see them before we have a 19 hearing on this motion, maybe if Mr. Keane would 20 bring by these Alexander, slash, Greenways, so I can 21 see, number one, whether they're Mr. Alexander's or 22 Ms. Greenway's, and see what the gist of them is, 23 and it might be better to have read at least a few 24 of them before we have a hearing. 25 MR. MOXON: Okay. I'm trying to reach him too 0478 1 on some of the videos. I didn't -- when I wasn't 2 here yesterday, apparently you had indicated that 3 there were a couple of videos that you wanted to see 4 which you didn't believe that you had? 5 THE COURT: Well, no. I think what -- somebody 6 said that there's a couple of videos that have 7 Mr. Dandar on them, and I believe I had indicated 8 that before they would be released, that I would 9 review them in camera to see if there was any basis 10 for them being or not being released. I think that 11 was part of my order, either verbal -- 12 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 13 THE COURT: -- or written or something. 14 MR. MOXON: In any event, there are -- there 15 are definitely a couple that you had marked that you 16 said you wanted to see and -- 17 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 18 MR. MOXON: -- I'll make sure that those get to 19 you. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, so the record's 22 complete, on May 23rd, 2002 -- 23 THE COURT: Well, it's best, so that I don't 24 ever hear that you all looked at those or anything 25 of the sort, have Mr. Keane deliver them. 0479 1 MR. MOXON: Oh, I don't have custody of them. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. MOXON: They're in Mr. Keane's -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. FUGATE: So the record's complete on the 6 last situation, on May 23rd, page 787 of the 7 transcript, line 20 through 25, Mr. Dandar says, "I 8 heard someone call Patricia Greenway my trial 9 consultant. That's a joke. She doesn't work for me 10 at all. She's a person who's just interested in 11 this case," in this hearing is what he represented 12 to the court. 13 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then he'll be 14 hard-pressed to say she was his consultant back in 15 2001. 16 MR. DANDAR: She's -- yeah. She's not a paid 17 consultant. She never has been. She's a volunteer. 18 THE COURT: Well, you can't say that it's a 19 joke if somebody's a consultant and then come and 20 tell me with a straight face that they were a 21 consultant since 2001. 22 MR. DANDAR: I -- 23 THE COURT: One or the other of those 24 statements is incorrect. 25 MR. DANDAR: Right. I -- Right. I stand 0480 1 corrected. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. DANDAR: Here's the original response to 4 their request for production on Jesse Prince. We 5 objected to income tax returns because, number one, 6 it's not provided for under the rules; it's 7 prohibited. And number two, we provided most if not 8 all of the information they requested before, in 9 April of 2001, except for a -- we did pay Mr. Prince 10 $4,000 recently, and that's -- we don't have a 11 returned check on that yet. So we have nothing to 12 produce. 13 THE COURT: Well, when you get it -- 14 MR. DANDAR: I will. 15 THE COURT: -- produce it. 16 MR. DANDAR: When I get it back, yeah. 17 THE COURT: Okay. And I'll get to that in a 18 minute. But I've got some other things here -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I just say one 20 other thing about this joke thing? 21 From my perspective, it really isn't all right. 22 Because I remember very clearly when that came up, I 23 was the one, I believe, that said about the trial 24 consultant thing, and Mr. Dandar looked at me 25 with -- with such -- you know, with such disdain and 0481 1 said, "That is a joke. She's not my trial 2 consultant." I mean, this has been happening 3 throughout this entire proceeding with Mr. Dandar. 4 And it's really sort of what the proceeding's about. 5 And it's just not -- 6 THE COURT: I understand that. 7 MR. WEINBERG: It's not right. 8 THE COURT: You file your motion -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: I will. 10 THE COURT: -- and then I'll hear you on that. 11 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 12 MR. DANDAR: I did stand corrected, Judge. I 13 was wrong on the date. 14 THE COURT: All right. Now, look, this order 15 concerning production of LMT records, then, for now, 16 I'm going to throw it in the wastebasket. But -- 17 but somebody's probably got some envelopes with some 18 postage on them. And it's probably Mr. Moxon. So 19 Mr. Moxon, I'll give this back to you. 20 This is on the LMT production. And probably I 21 don't need to sign that order. So your envelopes 22 and your postage -- 23 MR. MOXON: All right. Thank you, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: And whatever ones you all haven't 25 agreed to, let's try to get that resolved so that we 0482 1 can conclude this hearing. 2 MR. MOXON: I guess there really is no written 3 order on this. 4 THE COURT: There isn't. And I probably ought 5 to do a written order. But that order was objected 6 to because it had, as an attachment, the list. So 7 maybe what you can do is hold on to that and attach 8 a different list, those that have been agreed to, 9 and I'll sign that order. 10 MR. MOXON: Great. 11 THE COURT: And that will be agreed to by the 12 parties. And those that aren't agreed to, we'll 13 have a separate motion. And try to put them all in 14 there so we can do one order on the rest of them. 15 MR. MOXON: That makes sense. 16 THE COURT: Okay? 17 MR. MOXON: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: And do put in there the prohibition 19 on the e-mails about Mr. Dandar -- to or from 20 Mr. Dandar; that I'll want to review those first. 21 MR. MOXON: Very good. 22 THE COURT: And that includes, of course, his 23 brother. 24 MR. MOXON: Yeah. 25 THE COURT: Dandar and Dandar, Dandar Law, 0483 1 whatever the e-mail address is. 2 Now, I have two other things here that I hope 3 there's been some resolution on. One is a verified 4 motion to appear pro hac vice and a bunch of motions 5 to quash and memorandums and things regarding the 6 attorney, Samuel D. Rosen. Has that been resolved? 7 MR. FUGATE: No, Judge. I think that those 8 were delivered to you -- the subpoenas -- I 9 understand it was issued at 5 p.m. on -- 10 THE COURT: I understand all that. I read it 11 last night. 12 I just wanted to know, has it been resolved? 13 MR. FUGATE: No. It's -- the -- Mr. Rosen is 14 in California and Mr. Hill is in Argentina. There 15 was a letter sent to Mr. Dandar, which he didn't 16 respond to -- 17 THE COURT: Counsel, don't reiterate what's in 18 this. I've read it. I simply asked a question: Is 19 it resolved? The answer is no. 20 MR. FUGATE: No. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, I told you to get on 22 the telephone and get this thing resolved. Now I've 23 got all this stuff to read. Apparently you didn't 24 do that. They've given a list of dates when they 25 can be here. There's a motion for protective order 0484 1 filed. Naturally, they don't have to respond, once 2 they've done the protective order, till we've heard 3 it. 4 Do you want him here -- 5 MR. DANDAR: I -- 6 THE COURT: -- or not? 7 MR. DANDAR: I talked to him in person -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. DANDAR: -- on July the 2nd, and I asked 10 him to appear Monday in this court for this hearing. 11 When I didn't receive a reply, a response from 12 Mr. Rosen, I had -- then had him served with a 13 subpoena. So while I was away on July 4th, this 14 paperwork was generated. And you know, we're not 15 going to be here, I don't think, July 17th. And I'm 16 not going to pay Mr. Rosen first class airfare to 17 fly from New York. 18 So if you tell me that I'm required to his pay 19 his first class airfare, then I'm going to tell you 20 that I don't want him here. 21 THE COURT: I don't -- 22 Now, what I'm going to do -- what I asked was a 23 simple question: Has it been resolved and have you 24 called him on the telephone? It may well be a very 25 simple way to resolve this would have been, perhaps, 0485 1 to have done this when he was -- 2 He is -- he is, frankly, not just like your 3 everyday, nonresident person. He is a lawyer pro 4 hac vice in this state. Therefore, as far as I am 5 concerned, he is a lawyer in this state. And it 6 seems as if something could have been worked out. 7 He certainly indicated that he would come when 8 he was down here. And I don't know what his 9 testimony would be, but I think he was only present 10 at maybe one -- one hearing. And he's already 11 produced his notes. The subpoena duces tecum said, 12 "Produce the notes." Well, we already have them. 13 So I don't know what you're -- you know, what you 14 want to ask him, but I suspect we could have done 15 this with some degree of civility, with him being a 16 lawyer -- right now in Florida he's a practicing 17 lawyer, because he's been admitted -- to accommodate 18 him. We try to accommodate lawyers. 19 MR. DANDAR: Of course. 20 THE COURT: So I don't know whether I'm going 21 to require you to pay an airfare or not. I don't 22 know that that's contemplated if -- I would resolve 23 this and make rulings on that. But right now I've 24 got another member of the bar, of Georgia, who wants 25 to be admitted to argue this motion. And -- 0486 1 MR. DANDAR: Well, there's no need to argue the 2 motion. If -- if Mr. Rosen states that he has court 3 hearings that he cannot get out of because of prior 4 commitments, that's fine. But he doesn't spell out 5 what his prior commitments are. If it's meeting 6 with a client, like RTC or Scientology in California 7 rather than appear in court, then I would object to 8 that. But he doesn't spell out, nor does his 9 counsel from Georgia spell out -- 10 THE COURT: Well, you see, you don't even 11 understand this: Once a motion for protective order 12 is filed, he doesn't have to appear, period -- 13 MR. DANDAR: I understand that. 14 THE COURT: -- until there's a ruling on the 15 motion. 16 MR. DANDAR: I understand. 17 THE COURT: I just simply said, if it's not 18 been resolved, then we need to schedule a hearing on 19 the motion. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, you know, at this stage, I 21 don't think any of this is necessary. 22 THE COURT: You don't want him. 23 MR. DANDAR: No. He doesn't -- I don't want to 24 be here in a hearing on July 17th. This hearing, I 25 hope, is going to be over with this week. 0487 1 THE COURT: Well, he said he'll be here on 2 July 17th. 3 What we'll do is ask him to keep that date 4 relatively free with the idea that we might need 5 him. You make a decision. 6 MR. DANDAR: Well, we don't have to argue the 7 motion. If he's not available, that's fine. 8 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to assume 9 he's unavailable. I've had him say that; I've had 10 his lawyer -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. 12 THE COURT: -- indicate he's unavailable, I 13 mean, so I'm assuming he's unavailable. 14 MR. DANDAR: And so am I. 15 THE COURT: And he did say why he was 16 unavailable. He said he was going to a final 17 pretrial conference scheduled and he needed to get 18 with his client to change some things and work some 19 things out. I don't know what the client is or who 20 the client is, but that seems to me to be a 21 legitimate reason. 22 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. 23 THE COURT: So I think what he's saying -- 24 I will admit -- any reason why we shouldn't 25 admit Mr. Hill? 0488 1 MR. DANDAR: No. 2 THE COURT: And I would agree with that. So as 3 far as his motion to be admitted pro hac vice for 4 this purpose, it's granted. 5 MR. FUGATE: And I will call his office -- I've 6 got his secretary's number -- and advise him what 7 the court has indicated for the 17th. 8 THE COURT: Yeah. Just kind of try to keep 9 it -- 10 But Mr. Dandar, if -- if you want to have a 11 hearing on the -- what you have to pay to have him 12 here, quite frankly, as I said, he -- he may not be 13 entitled to that; he may. I'd have to make a 14 decision on that. 15 But golly, surely he's been down here 16 sometimes -- I mean -- I mean, if he was here we 17 could have done -- maybe if you'd called him and he 18 was here for a hearing before Judge Baird, you could 19 have done it in a video; I could have seen it in a 20 video. You know, there's lots of ways to work these 21 things out rather than -- 22 You know, I'm not crazy about -- both sides 23 here have served subpoena on people when they've 24 been in court, they walk outside of court and they 25 get hit with lawsuits or subpoenas or something. 0489 1 But I'm not sure that can't be done, so I'm not sure 2 that that objection is valid. 3 But I think what he said is, we don't have to 4 hear it. So keep the 17th -- you make a decision if 5 you want him. 6 MR. DANDAR: I will. 7 THE COURT: If you decide you want him, I'll 8 decide what you have to pay him to appear -- 9 MR. DANDAR: All right. 10 THE COURT: -- and -- 11 But as I said, I -- I am not persuaded that he 12 is a typical non-Florida resident. He is appearing. 13 This is, in my opinion, a related lawsuit, unlike 14 what Mr. Hill suggests. 15 So in any event, you want me to resolve it, 16 I'll resolve it, and we'll see what the law might be 17 regarding those kinds of situations. 18 But remember, we do have his notes. 19 MR. DANDAR: That's right. That's why -- 20 THE COURT: Yeah. And -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Right. 22 THE COURT: -- you know, I presume that his 23 testimony would be consistent somewhat with his 24 notes, and Ms. Yingling's. She was there and she 25 testified as to what happened there and -- 0490 1 MR. WEINBERG: And Mr. Jonas's notes too. 2 THE COURT: And Mr. Jonas's notes. 3 MR. DANDAR: That's correct. 4 THE COURT: And presumably -- I don't know if 5 you've had a chance to speak to Mr. Jonas on the 6 phone or not, but I mean you've had some 7 communication, I know, with Mr. Jonas -- 8 MR. DANDAR: Right. 9 THE COURT: -- about the meeting. 10 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Before this all happened. 11 THE COURT: Right. So, you know, based on 12 that, you may not need him. If you don't need him, 13 I don't need to hear it. If you do need him, I'm 14 going to ask him to set his calendar for the 17th 15 aside; I'll make it a point to be here. You decide 16 by noon today. And if so, I'll tell him block his 17 calendar off. 18 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. 19 THE COURT: If you don't need him, tell me that 20 and I'm going to throw this in the wastebasket. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 THE COURT: Now, then, we have this Opposition 23 of Defendant Church of Scientology's to H. Keith 24 Henson's Motion for Leave to File Amicus Brief. 25 I don't know exactly what -- I haven't had a 0491 1 chance to look at that, quite frankly. I got it 2 right when I was ready to go on vacation, and 3 frankly, it wasn't something I -- 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 5 THE COURT: I put it somewhere. 6 So I don't know if I'm ready to take this up -- 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 8 THE COURT: -- right yet. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah. 10 THE COURT: I don't know if it's been filed, is 11 my question. I don't know whether I got the 12 original or whether he filed it and sent me and 13 everybody else a copy. 14 Do you know that? 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't think it's been filed. 16 I don't know for sure. 17 THE COURT: Then I might have the original, you 18 think? 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think that's probably right. 20 And I would urge that it -- 21 THE COURT: I -- 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- not be filed. 23 THE COURT: I have not filed it. I have it, I 24 believe, at home with some of the other stuff that I 25 thought maybe I would read when I was on vacation. 0492 1 And quite frankly, I didn't. 2 MR. WEINBERG: So it was a real vacation. 3 THE COURT: So -- well, if you consider moving 4 11 boxes and unpacking and moving furniture around a 5 vacation. 6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, my recollection is, when it 7 came in, you indicated, "I've got what appears to be 8 an original and several copies. I'm going to give 9 Mr. Dandar one and give you guys one." So I think 10 that's it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. FUGATE: So -- 13 THE COURT: Well, don't anybody file it. 14 Anybody that has a copy, don't file it. I then 15 apparently have the original, which would mean that 16 I can take a look at it and see what it is. 17 I do remember briefly looking. He said it was 18 an amicus brief. Well, it wasn't. It was just a 19 bunch of stuff. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's a letter, which he 21 denominates as either an amicus brief or a motion to 22 file an amicus brief and an amicus brief. 23 THE COURT: Right. 24 Now, one of my -- my real questions is -- is, 25 we get stuff all the time. 0493 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 2 THE COURT: I mean, if they send it to the 3 clerk's office instead of to me, it just gets filed, 4 no matter what they call it, no matter what -- we 5 get stuff from people all the time. So that would 6 be my only concern is -- 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 8 THE COURT: -- I don't monitor that. I let 9 stuff be filed. 10 But I do understand that if there's been some 11 copyright rulings made -- 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 13 THE COURT: -- and some injunctions on some of 14 this material -- 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 16 THE COURT: -- which I read over your motion -- 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 18 THE COURT: -- and some court has said that he 19 can't publish this -- well, then, we can't really 20 allow him, under some guise of filing an amicus 21 brief, to file in a public file things that he's 22 not -- 23 So -- 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's -- 25 THE COURT: So I have some genuine concerns, as 0494 1 you do, about some of that. 2 But I haven't read it. Let me take an occasion 3 to look at it. I'll hold this off. I will not file 4 it until I make a ruling on it. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Now, I don't know who gets notice 7 about a hearing. I guess him. And he is in Canada. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 9 THE COURT: So maybe I just ought to set a date 10 and see if he wants to come. 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. That would be a good 12 idea. 13 THE COURT: Did you send him a copy of your -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, we did. 15 THE COURT: I thought you did. 16 Do you know where he is; like, where something 17 could be faxed to him? I don't know how long it 18 takes something to get to Canada. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't know that we have a fax 20 number for him. He doesn't really communicate -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I have his e-mail address. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'm going to set a 23 hearing, and we'll just do this on a date certain so 24 that he can be noticed. 25 And he apparently has gotten a copy of this? 0495 1 This is the opposition -- 2 MR. DANDAR: Oh. All right. 3 THE COURT: Opposition of the defendant Church 4 of Scientology Flag Service Organization to H. Keith 5 Henson's motion for leave to file amicus brief. 6 So I'm going to file Mr. Henson's motion for 7 leave to file amicus brief, and the church's 8 opposition thereto, Thursday at noon. 9 MR. DANDAR: Would you -- 10 THE COURT: Oh -- well, no. Thursday after 11 lunch. 1:30. 12 MR. DANDAR: Would you permit him to appear by 13 phone? I don't think -- I think this man is a 14 person of no means -- 15 THE COURT: You know, the truth of the matter 16 is that I think -- what I do remember reading was I 17 read this man's a fugitive of justice. So I don't 18 think I'm going to afford him that. 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. 20 THE COURT: But I would normally -- and you 21 must tell him in the e-mail, that it's not that I'm 22 trying to be punitive here. But when somebody's a 23 fugitive from our country, we just don't open up our 24 process to them as we might another Canadian person. 25 Which I certainly would. 0496 1 So no. If he wants to appear, he needs to 2 appear in person. Or by counsel. 3 MR. DANDAR: Or by counsel. 4 THE COURT: Or by counsel. 5 So if he wants to have someone here on his 6 behalf and he wants to designate somebody, I 7 certainly will hear from them. 8 MR. DANDAR: That certainly will not be me. 9 THE COURT: Well -- 10 And as I said, I can only state that in my 11 brief looking at it, it was not a -- an amicus brief 12 that would be of any -- like a normal amicus brief. 13 Okay. Now, before we get started on the 14 testimony -- 15 So that's the time we're going to hear it. 16 Would you all remind me? I'll forget. 17 Will you, Mr. Dandar, then, take it upon 18 yourself to give him a notice of hearing; that I'm 19 going to hear his motion -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 THE COURT: -- Thursday at 1:30? 22 Now, if he says he can't be here and he -- this 23 is not an urgent matter. So if he says he can't be 24 here but he wants to hire a lawyer and have it 25 argued, he can orally tell you he wants it continued 0497 1 and I'll just hold on to it, we'll hear it at a 2 somewhat more convenient time. 3 Okay. Now -- 4 MR. DANDAR: Actually, Judge, I could probably 5 e-mail him while we're sitting here in court. 6 THE COURT: That's all right. That's not -- 7 you know, it's not urgent. 8 MR. DANDAR: All right. 9 THE COURT: All right. Now, the -- there was a 10 request for production yesterday and you have now 11 responded to it. You have seen the response, have 12 you? 13 MR. FUGATE: I have seen the response. But I 14 do note it asks for 1099s and W-2s, not Mr. Prince's 15 tax returns. And I think the 1099s should be -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Well, we produced those. 17 MR. FUGATE: You know what? To save time, I'll 18 go through this with Ms. West and Mr. Dandar, 'cause 19 I can show him what was produced. I've got copies 20 of them. 21 THE COURT: Well, let's put this aside, then. 22 Madam Clerk, this is an original. I'm going to 23 file it with you. This needs to be filed in the 24 court file. 25 If you need me to resolve anything on that, 0498 1 why, bring it to my attention. 2 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 3 THE COURT: Now I think that's all we have 4 outstanding for the moment. 5 Your opposition -- is this -- this is not the 6 original. This would be my courtesy copy. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. We filed an 8 original. 9 THE COURT: Okay. I'm ready for Mr. Prince. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you. 11 THE COURT: He's still under oath. Same oath 12 he's taken. You only have to take it once. 13 You may continue, Mr. Dandar. 14 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Wein, you're going to hear some 16 unusual evidentiary rulings here, because we're 17 dealing with things like, perhaps, state of mind of 18 your client. However, you don't have -- you're 19 just -- your client is nothing but a witness in this 20 hearing. Therefore, as I told Mr. Battaglia 21 yesterday -- 22 MR. WEIN: I understand I can listen but I 23 shouldn't be standing up and objecting. 24 THE COURT: That's correct. 25 And you might think, "What in the world kind of 0499 1 rulings is she making? She doesn't understand 2 anything about the rules of evidence." This is an 3 unusual hearing with unusual rules, and we've got 4 some objections that have been made and will be 5 preserved, that have been made, First Amendment 6 objections, expert objections, stuff like that, that 7 are preserved. So you might hear triple hearsay 8 come in in this hearing. It's just an unusual 9 hearing. So -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: So it's both the lawyers that 11 aren't objecting -- 12 THE COURT: Yeah. When you hear that -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible.) 14 THE COURT: When the lawyers don't object -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: (Inaudible, simultaneous 16 speakers.) 17 THE COURT: -- just understand that we're 18 involved in somewhat of an unusual hearing, and I've 19 made some somewhat unusual evidentiary rulings 20 already. So we're -- 21 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: -- taking it from there. 23 Continue. 24 __________________________________________ 25 0500 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Mr. Prince, I'm not sure I asked you this question 3 yesterday or not, but are you aware that Mr. Minton received 4 from me any information concerning any of the mediations in 5 this wrongful death case? 6 A No, I am not. 7 Q Did Mr. Minton ever talk to you and say, "Oh, Ken 8 Dandar told me this about the mediation and what was said at 9 the mediation"? 10 A No, he did not. 11 Q Now, before you left the Church of Scientology, 12 how many years did you know -- personally know David 13 Miscavige? 14 A I'd say about 12 years. 15 Q And yesterday you said you were a friend of David 16 Miscavige? 17 A I said we'd been friends; we had been friends, 18 close friends, at a point in time. 19 Q Okay. When did that friendship end, if at all? 20 A Well, it's been quite a while since we've talked 21 to each other. Probably -- you know, if we talked to each 22 other -- I don't know -- maybe we could still find some 23 friendship there. But we haven't talked for quite a while. 24 Q Well, give us a year. When did you last talk to 25 him? 0501 1 A '92. 2 Q And is '92 the year that you were no longer a Sea 3 Org member? 4 A '92 is the year that I left. 5 Q Okay. And prior to leaving, did you still 6 consider him to be your friend? 7 A Yes, I did. 8 Q Okay. And did he work with you in RTC when you 9 were deputy inspector general? 10 A Yes, he did. And as a matter of fact, more often 11 than not I would report to him. 12 Q Rather than Vicki Aznaran? 13 A Together with Vicki Aznaran or without Vicki 14 Aznaran. 15 Q Can you describe to the court his management 16 style? 17 A Well, same management style that's pretty much 18 taught throughout the management series of Scientology, 19 wherein an executive is expected to know about or be in 20 control of all areas underneath the executive. 21 Normally when you have a person that's high in the 22 organizational chart in Scientology, you'll have a 23 seven-division org board. The person that is over that 24 activity has to know the details of what's going on in all 25 of those seven divisions. Each division may be having three 0502 1 separate departments, as many as three separate departments, 2 and different units within the department. So there could 3 be a lot of people there. There is provisions for 4 inspecting, getting information, and on and on and on, with 5 that. But it's very much expected to know everything. 6 But it certainly gets carried to an extreme, or 7 certainly was carried on to an extreme during my tenure 8 there, in that certain sections or areas would be 9 micromanaged to the point where the staff in that area could 10 only act on orders and comply with orders, comply with 11 command intention, comply with programs. There was not a 12 lot of original thought process going on in some areas by 13 staff. 14 Q How far down the org board did you personally 15 observe Mr. Miscavige micromanaging during your tenure? 16 A All the way down to the janitor. 17 Q Really. 18 A Yeah. 19 Q Would he manage that way with RTC or would he go 20 outside of RTC? 21 A Would go outside of RTC. There's plenty of 22 examples of that. 23 Q Can you give us a few? 24 A Well -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just date this? I was 0503 1 under the impression that when Mr. Prince was at 2 RTC, Mr. Miscavige wasn't. So can we put a date 3 when he's talking about? 4 THE WITNESS: I certainly will. 5 THE COURT: And what was that? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I haven't spoken of any 7 instance yet, but the instance that I'm about to 8 talk about right now happened in 1985 -- and I do 9 believe I've done a declaration about this before -- 10 whereby myself, David Miscavige, Vicki Aznaran, Mark 11 Yeager, Mark Ingber, Ray Mithoff, the usual crew, 12 came to the FSO. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Flag? 15 A Flag Service Organization. 16 Q In Clearwater? 17 A In Clearwater, Florida. 18 Went through the entire organization, started 19 declaring suppressive persons of staff and public on the 20 spot; people that we didn't want or felt were inappropriate 21 to be in the Flag Service Organization. 22 I've given a declaration about that before. 23 THE COURT: Have I seen that declaration? 24 MR. DANDAR: I don't -- I don't think -- 25 Was it -- it wasn't in this case, was it? 0504 1 THE WITNESS: No. I believe it was in another 2 case. 3 I will certainly find it, when -- 4 THE COURT: That's all right. I just didn't 5 know -- I didn't remember -- 6 MR. DANDAR: No, it wasn't. 7 THE COURT: -- reading it. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Does he know what cases? 9 Was it the Wollersheim case? 10 THE WITNESS: I believe it may have been. 11 A There's another instance that was produced and 12 written about by KSW News or Scientology News, where again 13 the usual crew -- myself, Miscavige, Lyman Spurlock, Ray 14 Mithoff, Mark Ingber, Mark Yeager, several Scientology 15 attorneys -- went to San Francisco to have a mission 16 holders' conference with the current mission holders. 17 THE COURT: Go to the mission -- 18 THE WITNESS: Mission holders. Mission holders 19 would be like franchise holders, organization -- 20 The Scientology organization is one thing. 21 Then you can have a franchise of that which is 22 called a mission. And the mission holder would be 23 the owner of the mission. 24 THE COURT: I see. 25 A Anyway, we went up to San Francisco to have a 0505 1 mission holders' conference. And prior to actually having 2 the conference, we stopped in a local Scientology 3 organization, the San Francisco organization, went through 4 the entire organization, spoke to everyone in the 5 organization, and removed the executive from the 6 organization, removed other people, and left. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q What gave you the power -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Could you please date that one 10 too, please? 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q What year was that? 13 A That one was 1982 -- late '82 or very early '83, 14 as I recall. 15 Q And what gave Mr. Miscavige and your group the 16 power to go into a separate corporation, the San Francisco 17 organization, and remove officers of the corporation? 18 A This is the subject of something I've also given 19 extensive testimony and declaration about, because it goes 20 to alter-ego within Scientology. 21 But there's a thing called mission tech, where Sea 22 Org members can get together on orders based on Sea Org 23 programs, and go into any organization and take it over 24 completely and remove its executives, alter, change its 25 policy, change its board of directors, change whatever it 0506 1 wants to. And once it deems that the activity is performing 2 to the expected standard, then the mission will pull out. 3 Normally these missions last for two, three weeks. 4 Q So it has to do -- 5 THE COURT: Mission -- 6 I'm sorry, Mr. Dandar. We must be driving you 7 crazy. 8 The mission lasts for two or three weeks, 9 meaning the mission church or the mission of these 10 folks that are going in to take a look? 11 THE WITNESS: The mission of these folks going 12 in to take a look -- 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: -- your Honor. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q And the officers of the corporation are removed 17 because they're doing -- 18 I mean, what's the reason for that? Let's talk 19 about the San Francisco organization. 20 THE COURT: Why is that relevant? 21 MR. DANDAR: It's the power of the Sea Org, 22 which is one of the issues raised at this hearing. 23 MR. WEINBERG: But it's not an issue at this 24 hearing. It may be an issue he's trying to raise, 25 but the issue at this hearing is whether or not, A, 0507 1 there was misconduct by Mr. Dandar and others; and 2 B, whether or not there was a basis to allege that 3 David Miscavige had ordered the killing, death of 4 Lisa McPherson. Not Sea Org, none of that. 5 THE COURT: Well, part of the allegation was he 6 was the head of the Sea Org, which was by -- 7 That is an issue. 8 MR. WEINBERG: But it's -- it -- Mr. Miscavige, 9 as we know, is not a party, because he didn't 10 pursue -- that was the way they got him to be a 11 party, by saying he was outside of the contract -- 12 THE COURT: I -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: -- and -- 14 THE COURT: -- understand that, Counsel. But 15 the allegation in the complaint that you are trying 16 to get a summary judgment on and -- and have 17 dismissed as false is that David Miscavige did these 18 certain things. And that still is part of the 19 complaint, whether he's a party or not. 20 MR. WEINBERG: There's a lot of accusations in 21 the complaint that I guess Mr. Dandar could have 22 this hearing go for the next three months about, but 23 that isn't a central -- 24 I've said my piece. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. 0508 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q So Mr. Prince, you and your party, which included 3 Mr. Miscavige, ousting the corporate officers of the San 4 Francisco corporation, what -- what gave them the power to 5 do that? 6 A Again, it was just Sea Org -- it's called Sea Org 7 mission tech, where a person in the Sea Org, called a 8 mission op, or operator -- mission ops, it's called -- will 9 put together a set of, like, project order to get done in 10 the organization. They may call for removing the 11 executives; it may call for investigating and then removing 12 upon determination; it may call for training; it may call 13 for correction. 14 Q And back in late '82, early '83, when you and 15 Miscavige and the others went to San Francisco, who was the 16 head of the Sea Org? 17 A David Miscavige. 18 Q And when you left in '92 -- 19 THE COURT: Mr. Hubbard was still alive then? 20 THE WITNESS: In 1992, yes. 21 MR. DANDAR: No, '82. 22 THE COURT: '82. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh. '82. Yes. I'm sorry. 24 THE COURT: And he was not the head of the Sea 25 Org? 0509 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, he was. He was the 2 commodore. 3 But you know, we were going through this whole 4 song and dance to try to get tax-exempt status for 5 the various organizations of Scientology, and the 6 problem came up where I guess it was determined that 7 L. Ron Hubbard -- it was found that L. Ron Hubbard 8 was the managing agent of Scientology and the Sea 9 Org. And so Mr. Hubbard, by that time, had really 10 separated himself for the purposes of allowing this 11 church entity -- these Scientology entities to get 12 tax-exempt status. He had kind of separated himself 13 totally from Scientology activity. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q So when he separated himself, who took over as the 17 head of the Sea Org? 18 A Miscavige. David Miscavige. 19 Q And when you left in '92, who was the head of the 20 Sea Org? 21 A David Miscavige. 22 Q Was there anyone in the Sea Org that had equal or 23 greater rank than David Miscavige from '82 to '92 when you 24 left? 25 A At the time before I left, David Miscavige -- this 0510 1 whole thing with brevet rank and being a captain and 2 stuff -- this is something that happened, I believe, later, 3 after I was done there. 4 Mr. Miscavige derives his authority from being the 5 chairman of the board of nearly every -- all of the major 6 corporations. He's on the board of directors somehow, where 7 he derives -- 8 And then also, as far as Sea Org is concerned, 9 Miscavige -- 10 I mean, basically, L. Ron Hubbard passed the torch 11 to Miscavige. He didn't pass it to Miscavige; he passed it 12 on to Pat and Annie Broeker. Miscavige got rid of Pat and 13 Annie Broeker, so effectively took control of Scientology. 14 Q And did he take control of Scientology as the 15 chairman of the board of some corporation or through the Sea 16 Org? 17 A He took control of Scientology through -- by 18 corporate means. And he was able to -- 19 You see -- you see, this may be a little 20 confusing, so I think this is worth -- takes a moment to 21 explain. 22 The Sea Org operates on not only these green 23 policy letters and these red bulletins that we've seen, but 24 the Sea Org has its own issues and issue types that it 25 operates on. And they're called Flag orders. Flag 0511 1 orders -- you know, they supersede corporate boundaries; 2 supersede posts or positions or whatever. 3 A So Flag orders -- L. Ron -- the last Flag order 4 that he wrote, he turned over Scientology to Pat and Annie 5 Broeker. He called them loyal officers. Loyal officers is 6 a term that comes up from reading Scientology's, 7 quote/unquote, advance materials. That was -- loyal 8 officers were supposed to be the highest rank in 9 Scientology. 10 Miscavige -- after L. Ron Hubbard passed, 11 Miscavige cancelled that issue, did not let Pat and Annie -- 12 THE COURT: We don't really need to go there, 13 do we? 14 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm leading up to one 15 question. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 A Anyway, he effectively took it over. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q All right. Now, why is it that paragraph 34 -- 20 based on your affidavit, why is it that it alleges that 21 David Miscavige, outside of anyone else, would be the person 22 who would have given this order to end cycle? 23 A Well, I think what my affidavit actually says 24 is -- is David Miscavige would have sat there with Ray 25 Mithoff, with Marty Rathbun, the people that meet, to -- to 0512 1 make sure that the flaps within Scientology that are a 2 threat are dealt with. I think what I said there was that 3 those three people would have gotten together and decided -- 4 THE COURT: Ray Mithoff and who else? 5 THE WITNESS: Marty Rathbun. 6 MR. DANDAR: R-a-t-h-b-u-n. 7 THE WITNESS: Would have sat there with full 8 knowledge and information of what was going on with 9 Lisa McPherson. And instead of letting her be taken 10 to a hospital, would have told these people to just 11 let her stay there, and let's see what happens here. 12 Let's continue. See if we can, you know, finish the 13 introspection rundown. Don't put her on any line 14 where she can tell a story about what's happening to 15 her. 16 In other words, let her die. If she dies, 17 that's what happens. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Now, what if the -- based upon your tenure and 20 your experience of working with Mr. Miscavige, Mr. Rathbun, 21 Mr. -- I've forgotten the third name. 22 A Mithoff. 23 Q Mithoff. 24 If Mr. Mithoff and Mr. Rathbun said, "No, no, no. 25 We have these reports, that she needs to -- she's not 0513 1 doing -- she's getting worse. She needs to go to the 2 hospital. Send her to the hospital," and Mr. Miscavige 3 says, "No. We're not going to do that," out of those three, 4 who prevails? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. This is just rank 6 speculation. 7 THE COURT: It would appear to be so, except I 8 believe he indicated, back when he was at RTC, these 9 same people were there? 10 MR. WEINBERG: No. Mr. Mithoff was in CSI. 11 Mr. Rathbun was not in RTC. 12 I -- I mean, he -- 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Mr. Prince -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: -- at the time -- 16 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, because I 17 know what the answer is. I mean -- 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Mr. Prince, who was in RTC when you were in RTC, 20 at these meetings? 21 MR. WEINBERG: No -- 22 A The only people that were in RTC were myself and 23 Vicki Aznaran. David Miscavige was the chairman of the 24 board of Author Services, a for-profit corporation that was 25 L. Ron Hubbard's publishing company. However, that meant 0514 1 nothing in relationship to who were the principals of 2 Scientology, who were directing -- directing the actions of 3 Scientology as a whole. And the people that were doing that 4 were David Miscavige, myself, Vicki Aznaran, Mark Yeager, 5 Mark Ingber, Lyman Spurlock. 6 THE COURT: Was there a majority vote taken? 7 THE WITNESS: There's no such thing as a vote 8 in the Sea Org, unless you're deciding on a quality 9 of food, in Scientology. 10 THE COURT: If you disagree on a decision, who 11 made the final call? 12 THE WITNESS: If you disagreed on a decision -- 13 if you disagreed with someone that was above you, 14 you would be sent for correction to straighten out 15 your -- 16 THE COURT: Look, if you folks are sitting 17 around trying to decide something -- you and all 18 these people, you said, were kind of a -- there -- 19 and you disagreed; you know, you said, "I think this 20 should happen," Ms. Aznaran said, "I think this 21 should happen," David Miscavige said, "I think this 22 should happen," who made the call? 23 THE WITNESS: Ultimately the person who would 24 have the authority and everyone would have to follow 25 would be Mr. Miscavige. 0515 1 THE COURT: So he -- he made the final call. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, he would say, "Okay. Yeah. 3 This is how you do it." 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Would he get input from the others for -- 6 A Yes. I mean, that happened. But the purpose -- I 7 mean, you know -- and I just want to clear this picture -- 8 make this picture a little bit more clearer as to how it 9 actually works. 10 Mr. -- Mr. Mithoff, based on how it worked when I 11 was there -- I'm just going to explain this. 12 Mr. Mithoff would have brought this situation to 13 the attention of Mr. Rathbun. Mr. Rathbun would have looked 14 over this -- okay. And again, in my mind, I'm not going 15 with the theory that she was crazy when they took her to the 16 hospital; I'm not going with the theory that she just lay 17 there and wanted to be there; I'm going with the theory 18 that, just like she said, she wanted to leave. She was 19 trying to leave. They incarcerated her, falsely 20 incarcerated her, wouldn't let her leave. 21 So Mr. Mithoff would have brought it to 22 Mr. Rathbun's attention. Because you have a threat. You 23 have a person that is now escalated. They want to get out. 24 And now they're sick. It's going bad -- worse to bad. 25 Mr. Mithoff would have taken and put an exact 0516 1 instructions in her folder, went over it with Mr. Rathbun. 2 And at the meeting they would have sat down with 3 Mr. Miscavige and said, "This is the situation. This is the 4 flap. This is the handling." If their handling included 5 not taking her to the hospital and keeping her there and 6 doing Scientology on her, Mr. Miscavige would have said, 7 "Fine." If their handling would have been, "Look, I think 8 we better take this risk even though she is antagonistic, 9 and we got to send her to the hospital," it is my opinion 10 that his answer would have been, "No. You leave her right 11 there." 12 Q And why is that? What do you base that opinion 13 on? 14 A I base that opinion on the fact that protecting 15 Scientology is the ultimate goal of any Scientologist, 16 irrespective of friend, family, business. Scientology comes 17 first. Because the idea in Scientology is that 18 Scientology's going to save the world. And if you lose 19 Scientology, you lose the world. So it's the greatest good 20 to protect Scientology than it would be to be concerned 21 about an individual, or a group, for that matter. 22 Q Now, are you familiar with the term and policy 23 letter called "bypass"? 24 A Yes, I am. 25 Q All right. Can you tell the court what that is? 0517 1 A Bypass is a situation -- I guess I can just do a 2 real example here using the court reporter. If this court 3 reporter here were typing transcripts and she were making 4 too many errors, someone else would have to come in here and 5 take over her job and -- while she goes and gets fixed or 6 gets corrected, and takes over her actual job, and does the 7 job until she's able to perform it again. 8 Q Do you have an opinion whether or not, in Lisa 9 McPherson's case, bypass would have come into play? 10 THE COURT: I don't understand that. I'm 11 sorry. Maybe I just didn't understand the example. 12 Maybe -- 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll try to do another 14 example, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Bypass, to me, means you jump over 16 somebody or you go around someone. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, you actually displace that 18 person and assume their position. 19 THE COURT: Oh, I see. Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Until they can do the job 21 correctly. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Let me show you -- 25 THE COURT: I don't think he answered your 0518 1 question. I interrupted him. So if you want an 2 answer, do you -- 3 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm going -- 4 THE COURT: In the Lisa McPherson case -- 5 MR. DANDAR: No -- 6 THE COURT: -- did bypass occur? 7 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to ask a question first. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to interrupt myself. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Let me show you what I have marked as Plaintiff's 13 Exhibit 127, see if you can identify this. 14 A Okay. 15 Q Can you identify this? 16 A Yes, I can. This is what's commonly referred to 17 as a CBO, central bureau order. It's another issue type 18 that Scientology puts out, you know, like a bulletin or a 19 policy letter. And this particular issue talks about senior 20 management bypassing into lower areas or lower units within 21 the Scientology infrastructure. 22 Q Under what circumstances would that happen? 23 A This would happen at any point where the senior 24 officer or senior body felt that there was a situation going 25 on in a lower area that wasn't being dealt with to par. 0519 1 Q Now, do you have an opinion, based upon your 2 experience in Scientology, whether or not, after your review 3 of the Lisa McPherson matter, the policy bypass would have 4 come into play? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to competence. I 6 don't even know what this is. I mean, this is not 7 written by L. Ron Hubbard, apparently. It's not in 8 the green volumes or the red volumes. There's been 9 no -- there's been no -- 10 And Mr. Prince said he knew what bypass was. 11 Well -- but -- and now he's going to apply it to 12 some hypothetical situation that he doesn't have any 13 personal knowledge of? 14 THE WITNESS: I think the issue speaks for -- 15 THE COURT: I -- 16 THE WITNESS: -- itself. 17 THE COURT: I think for this purpose of this 18 hearing, I just want to hear everything he has to 19 say. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I just -- 21 THE COURT: So I'm going to allow it. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Every now and then, I just need 23 to get up to renew -- 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. WEINBERG: -- my -- 0520 1 Just so Mr. Wein -- 2 Is it Wein -- 3 MR. WEIN: Yeah. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. -- I'm "wine," and he's 5 "ween." 6 THE COURT: I want to hear everything -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 8 THE COURT: -- because I want to find out all 9 the things that Mr. Prince may have, as Mr. Dandar's 10 consultant -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 12 THE COURT: -- told him about, so that I can 13 have some understanding of the complaint and the 14 allegations you've made. And so I'm going to allow 15 it. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Have you seen this document before today, 18 Mr. Prince? 19 A Yes, I have. 20 Q And under what circumstances have you seen that? 21 A I have seen this during messenger training. 22 I had to, myself -- when I went to Gilman Hot 23 Springs in 1982, I became what's called a commodore 24 messenger. And I've explained that endlessly too. It's a 25 person -- it's an emissary of L. Ron Hubbard who has the 0521 1 same authority as L. Ron Hubbard. When they come with an 2 order to an area, it's like L. Ron Hubbard giving an order 3 to an area. So you know, this has the highest level of 4 priority, as far as compliance's concerned. 5 I became a commodore's messenger. And as part of 6 being a commodore's messenger, this was the first time in my 7 study pack on the duties of commodore's messenger that I 8 read this particular issue. 9 Q Okay. And do you have an opinion whether or not 10 this bypass would come into play in any part of the matter 11 concerning Lisa McPherson? 12 A I think it would have certainly come into play, 13 given the fact that Mrs. McPherson was not being cooperative 14 or -- and actually intended to leave Scientology. And this 15 was consistent in what she was saying. So that's like a 16 breach of technology. There's no such thing as Scientology 17 not working, as far as the written materials are concerned. 18 If Scientology doesn't work, then something is wrong with 19 the individual. Somebody has done something wrong or 20 somebody has misapplied it. 21 So if you have a person in the extreme situation 22 like Lisa was, that continued, that would be reason for 23 bypass; to come in and, you know, deal with it specifically. 24 Q Who gets involved when bypass happens? 25 A For the FSO? 0522 1 Q Yes. 2 A Normally Ray Mithoff. 3 Q In what position? 4 A He's the senior technical person internationally 5 for Scientology. The Flag Service Organization is the 6 senior mecca of technical perfection as far as Scientology 7 is concerned, so the -- the Flag Service Organization is 8 certainly one of the major providences of the senior CS 9 international. 10 Q Now, a while back, you know, in my office, you 11 pulled out an OW of Lisa McPherson -- 12 THE COURT: OW? 13 MR. DANDAR: Overt withhold, abbreviated OW. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q -- that she wrote in the fall of '95, concerning 16 February of '95, where she mentioned management had to get 17 involved? Do you recall that? 18 A Yes. This was a -- right around the first time I 19 believe that Lisa started experiencing severe difficulty 20 with Scientology, as far as her relationship to it. And she 21 mentioned that whatever was going on with her was -- you 22 know, technically it resulted in a bypass by senior 23 management; a bypass of the Flag Service Organization, to 24 specifically help her and deal with her situation. 25 Q Now, we already have in evidence and marked as 0523 1 Exhibit 96 -- 2 And this is an extra copy. 3 MR. DANDAR: And Judge, I'll show it to you if 4 you need to see it again. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q But it's the Heide Negro (sic) isolation watch 7 report. 8 Did you see that before? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q And on the second page it talks about -- 11 THE COURT: That's in evidence? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 96. 13 THE COURT: Oh, okay. It's been a long time. 14 THE WITNESS: I think she needs -- 15 MR. DANDAR: It is a long time. 16 THE COURT: Thank you. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q On the second page, first paragraph of the last 19 sentence -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, hold on. Mr. -- I object 21 to his competence -- he has no personal knowledge of 22 any of this. 23 THE COURT: I don't even know what the question 24 is going to be, so -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: He's now going into 0524 1 somebody's -- 2 THE COURT: Well, you don't know what he's 3 going to go into because you haven't heard the 4 question. So let's hear it and I'll -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: If I could -- 6 THE COURT: Go on ahead with your question. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Okay. The first paragraph, it says that this data 9 came originally from FSO CS, Alain Kartuzinski, who was in 10 charge of John Taylor's correction. 11 Who -- 12 THE COURT: See, I don't even know where you're 13 reading from. 14 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. First paragraph on 15 page 2. 16 THE COURT: Oh. Page 2. 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I'm sorry. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q "This was later corrected by a telex from Mr. Ray 21 Mithoff, who indicated that the RD --" I guess that's 22 rundown -- 23 A Right. 24 Q "-- in fact could be delivered, at which point 25 delivery commenced." 0525 1 Now, what does that mean in plain English? 2 A There was a question of whether or not this person 3 could be given the introspection rundown. Alain Kartuzinski 4 apparently thought that no one was qualified at this 5 particular location, which is their advanced organization in 6 the United Kingdom. This person was -- apparently had 7 similar symptoms to what Lisa and other people were having 8 that have that problem. 9 And Mr. Mithoff -- this, again -- at management, 10 was alerted. And Mr. Mithoff indicated that the rundown 11 could be given, because Mr. Mithoff is the senior-most 12 technical person within the Scientology infrastructure. 13 Senior FSO CS Alain Kartuzinski -- any auditor or 14 case supervisor located here in Clearwater, Florida, 15 operating in the Ft. Harrison Hotel and the Sandcastle, are 16 considered to be the cream of the crop as far as auditors 17 and technically trained people are concerned. 18 Q Okay. Well, are you aware of evidence that you've 19 seen where David Miscavige has become personally involved in 20 the matters concerning Lisa McPherson? 21 A One thing that I saw where he actually comes out 22 himself was a letter that was written to Mr. Bernie McCabe 23 concerning dismissing the criminal case that was brought 24 against Scientology for Lisa McPherson's death. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar's not 0526 1 taking the position that this justifies his 2 accusation that David Miscavige murdered Lisa 3 McPherson, whatever he's got to show you, that 4 happened in the criminal investigation. 5 THE COURT: No. I think what he's about to 6 show me, based on his question, is something that 7 indicates that David Miscavige knew about the Lisa 8 McPherson case. I don't think -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think -- 10 THE COURT: -- that that -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: -- the whole world knew about 12 the Lisa McPherson case once there were people -- 13 once the church was indicted and people were walking 14 around with picket signs. 15 THE COURT: We have to read it, 'cause I don't 16 know what it is. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Plaintiff's 128. Is that the letter you're 19 referring to, Mr. Prince? 20 A Yes, it is. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I have a copy, 22 please? 23 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 24 A Yeah. 25 0527 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Based upon your experience as a Scientology 3 executive in RTC, why would RTC have anything to do or be 4 involved with the Lisa McPherson matter? 5 A I think if you just look at the second paragraph 6 on page 7 of this letter, the last sentence, I think that 7 pretty much says it all. It says, "Therefore, if rapid, 8 responsible and meaningful resolution of this case is to be 9 achieved --" 10 THE COURT: Just a second. I can't find out 11 where you are. Page 7, what? 12 THE WITNESS: Second paragraph. Last sentence 13 in the second paragraph. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 THE WITNESS: Where it says, "Therefore, if 16 rapid, responsible and meaningful resolution of this 17 case is to be achieved, you and I are the persons to 18 do it." 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You, meaning Mr. McCabe, and I, meaning Mr. -- 21 A Miscavige. 22 Q -- Miscavige? 23 A Correct. 24 Q Why would -- again, why would Mr. Miscavige then 25 be personally involved in the Lisa McPherson matter? 0528 1 MR. WEINBERG: Again -- 2 A Again, bypass -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: -- isn't this pure speculation 4 on his part? 5 THE COURT: Well, I think that -- that -- 6 I would read this that this was after the 7 charge was brought. 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And that Mr. Miscavige, as the 10 ecclesiastical head of the church against whom a 11 charge was brought, was saying, "If this is going to 12 be resolved, Mr. McCabe, as the state attorney, and 13 I, as the head of this church, need to sit down and 14 try to resolve it." 15 MR. WEINBERG: And of course, he was not 16 successful at that point, because the case continued 17 for another year. And we all know how it -- 18 THE COURT: However, we perhaps need to hear 19 from Mr. Prince how he believes that statement shows 20 that Mr. Miscavige was involved before Lisa 21 McPherson died. Which is what your point of the 22 question -- 23 MR. DANDAR: That's where I'm heading, yes. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 0529 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q How does that -- how can you explain that as 3 reference to, as the judge just said -- 4 A I think the letter, you know, indicates 5 Mr. Miscavige's broad knowledge of every step of the 6 criminal case, you know. And there's no obvious evidence 7 that he's had involvement in this case, but it would 8 certainly be my opinion that he has. Because again, this is 9 a flap. It's a bypass. 10 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Prince, let me just ask 11 you what would seemingly be a logical question to 12 me: 13 You could certainly have a situation -- I'm not 14 saying this is true or not true. But you could 15 have -- certainly have a situation where somebody 16 didn't know about somebody being ill, but when 17 criminal charges were filed, because that person 18 died, if they're the head, they'd become involved 19 and take over from that point. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. That is a 21 rational line of thinking for, you know, regular 22 world activities. But in Scientology, these -- you 23 know, Scientology -- 24 THE COURT: I'm not saying that -- 25 THE WITNESS: -- is extremely -- 0530 1 THE COURT: -- Mr. Miscavige didn't know. 2 THE WITNESS: Right. 3 THE COURT: I am saying that another 4 explanation -- I mean, this is about a criminal 5 charge -- 6 THE WITNESS: Right. 7 THE COURT: -- right? 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: And so you could certainly have -- 10 THE WITNESS: Against the Flag Service 11 Organization. 12 THE COURT: Yeah. 13 You could have a situation where the 14 ecclesiastical head, after criminal charges are 15 filed, says, "Let's you and I sit down and see if we 16 can resolve this criminal case." 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 Well, you know, where are the letters from the 19 corporate heads of the Flag Service Organization, 20 doing the same thing with Mr. McCabe? 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Where are the what? 22 THE WITNESS: The corporate officers of the 23 Flag Service Organization. Where's Mr. Ben Shaw's 24 letter to Mr. McCabe to sort this out? Why does 25 this necessitate Mr. Miscavige? This is against the 0531 1 Flag Service Organization. 2 THE COURT: Well, because as I understand it, 3 Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the 4 Church of Scientology. 5 THE WITNESS: Every one of them. 6 THE COURT: Every one of them. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: Yeah. There's no disagreement. 9 So as I said, I can -- I'm not saying that 10 Mr. Miscavige did or did not know about Lisa 11 McPherson's situation when she was at the Ft. 12 Harrison Hotel. Because quite frankly, that's one 13 of the issues. 14 But this letter just simply says that, "I as 15 the head of this church, all of them, want to sit 16 down with you and resolve this case." 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 THE COURT: So how do you jump from that -- 19 THE WITNESS: Well -- 20 THE COURT: In other words, there's lots of 21 people who have testified that David Miscavige, as 22 chairman of the board of RTC, knew about Lisa 23 McPherson. There's just no question in their mind. 24 THE WITNESS: Right. 25 THE COURT: He would have known. He would have 0532 1 known because that's the way business is done. 2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 3 THE COURT: Sort of. 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 THE COURT: Okay. I've heard all that 6 testimony. I presume you would testify the same. 7 But what does this letter add to this? 8 THE WITNESS: I -- you know, your Honor, I 9 think the only purpose of this letter is -- is just 10 to show what we were talking about earlier, when we 11 were talking about the bypass and -- and how, you 12 know, it's a pattern of conduct; how the 13 organization does business. I think that's the 14 purpose of why this is in here. 15 THE COURT: Well, if this letter has 16 relevance -- if this letter has relevance, it has 17 relevance to the, I suspect, agreed-to evidence in 18 this case, which is that David Miscavige is the 19 ecclesiastical head of the Church of Scientology, 20 including -- including Flag. 21 MR. DANDAR: Right. 22 THE COURT: Including all of the organizations. 23 MR. WEINBERG: The letter isn't relevant to 24 this proceeding. 25 THE COURT: No. It is not relevant to this 0533 1 proceeding, as I said, except that it might be 2 relevant to that issue, which I assume is an 3 agreed-upon issue. 4 MR. WEINBERG: The first church in the United 5 States within 200 years is indicted, it's not 6 surprising that Mr. Miscavige -- 7 THE COURT: No, it's not. 8 MR. WEINBERG: -- would want to try to find a 9 resolution to it. 10 THE COURT: That is true, and that's what I 11 said. I don't think it has any relevance to this 12 proceeding unless it is to establish that indeed 13 Mr. Miscavige is the ecclesiastical head of the 14 church, including -- including Flag. 15 MR. WEINBERG: He's the ecclesiastical -- he's 16 the ecclesiastical leader of the churches of 17 Scientology. 18 THE COURT: Right. 19 MR. WEINBERG: The religious leader of the 20 Church of Scientology. 21 THE COURT: Well, ecclesiastical leader and 22 religious leader are the same thing. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Same thing. He happens 24 to be the chairman of the board of an organization 25 called RTC, but he's the ecclesiastical or religious 0534 1 leader of Scientology. 2 THE COURT: Right. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Mr. Prince, is Mr. Miscavige the leader of all of 5 the Scientology churches as -- because he's the COB of RTC 6 or because he's the captain of the Sea Org? 7 A Because he's the captain of the Sea Org. 8 Q When Mr. Miscavige was the captain of the Sea Org 9 and the COB, of the for-profit corporation Office Services, 10 Inc., ASI, was he the head of all of the churches of 11 Scientology as well? 12 A Well, again, as your Honor correctly pointed out, 13 Mr. Hubbard was alive at that time. 14 Q Oh, okay. 15 A Shortly after Mr. Hubbard passed, that was 16 certainly the situation for a moment. 17 But immediately upon the death of Mr. Hubbard and 18 the ousting of Pat and Annie Broeker, Mr. Miscavige assumed 19 control of Religious Technology Center. 20 Q All right. And did he do that because he was the 21 chairman of the board of ASI or the captain of the Sea Org? 22 A Because he was the captain of the Sea Org. You 23 know, everything is done in the Sea Org with missions. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could he just 25 answer -- 0535 1 THE COURT: Yes. He's answered the question. 2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have a document -- 3 actually, it's a notice of filing. 4 I'm going to have to have the clerk mark this 5 notebook. And -- 6 (A discussion was held off the record.) 7 THE COURT: All right. We'll go ahead and take 8 our morning break since it's very close to that 9 time. We'll be in recess till 11:30. 10 (A recess was taken at 11:17 a.m.) 11 (The proceedings resumed at 11:37 a.m.) 12 THE COURT: You may continue. 13 MR. DANDAR: What I had marked and what I was 14 about to hand the witness and the court, and not 15 have to make an extra copy for Mr. Weinberg -- which 16 I didn't because, quite frankly, he has all this, 17 but I understand what he's saying. He should have 18 the same thing I'm handing -- and that's fine. 19 We'll get that done over the lunch break -- is 20 Exhibit 130. It's a compilation of documents, 21 statements and depositions of staff. 22 But I'm only going to ask this witness about J, 23 which is the narrative investigation of Detective 24 Carrasquillo, April 15th, 1997. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I object to the use of this 0536 1 document. It's just -- it's a -- it's not a sworn 2 statement; it's not a sworn statement of a witness. 3 It's just her -- it's a hearsay account of what she 4 claims -- I guess summarizes what somebody would 5 have told her. That's not evidence. 6 THE COURT: Well -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: It's not -- certainly not for -- 8 I think where he's going is that he's offering it 9 for the truth of the matter asserted. And it's pure 10 hearsay. 11 THE COURT: Well, it would be true hearsay if 12 he's offering it for the truth of the matter 13 asserted, but I don't know what he's going to ask 14 this witness. So let's hear it. 15 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Mr. Prince -- of course, we obtained this 18 document, you know, a year after your affidavit of August of 19 '99 -- 20 A Mm-hmm. 21 Q -- when this was made a public record -- 22 But in paragraph 3, the interview summary of 23 Mr. and Mrs. Ortner, O-r-t-n-e-r, indicates that 24 Mr. Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm talking about, 0537 1 your Honor. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q -- while they were there, around November 20th of 4 1995. 5 Do you -- here's my question: Do you know of 6 circumstances or other occasions when Mr. Miscavige would 7 stay at the Ft. Harrison Hotel? 8 A Yes, I do. Again, I'll refer to the -- to the 9 video that was played the first day of my testimony where we 10 were having a New Year's Eve event. He would be there for 11 that. He would be there for March 13th, which is L. Ron 12 Hubbard's birthday. They normally have an event at the -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about a specific 14 year? 15 A -- and -- 16 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 17 MR. WEINBERG: About a specific year? 18 THE WITNESS: No. I'm talking -- he asked me a 19 question of when normally he would be there. I'm 20 talking about -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: All right. My objection is the 22 question was whether he stayed there, not whether he 23 was there. Big difference. And in this case there 24 is no -- I mean, if this is being offered that 25 Mr. Miscavige was in Clearwater in November or 0538 1 December of 1995, it's pure hearsay. And he wasn't. 2 And if he was -- 3 THE COURT: I didn't hear -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: -- he would have obviously -- 5 the state attorney would have done some 6 investigation on it if that were the case. And it's 7 not the case. 8 But the question was whether he -- whether 9 Mr. Miscavige ever stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel, 10 and Mr. Prince is talking about whether 11 Mr. Miscavige was ever at the Ft. Harrison Hotel, 12 which is completely different. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q How did you understand the question, Mr. Prince? 15 A I understood the question as to at what times 16 would Mr. Miscavige likely be at the Ft. Harrison. 17 Q Okay. All right. Well, let's -- 18 THE COURT: I think that has some relevance, if 19 it was anytime around -- in and around the time of 20 Lisa McPherson's stay at the Ft. Harrison. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q So what events would he normally routinely come to 23 in the Ft. Harrison? 24 A There would be auditor's date -- 25 Q Which is -- 0539 1 A -- which is sometime in September; there would be 2 IAS~-- 3 Q What's IAS? 4 A Excuse me. International Association of 5 Scientologists. They have an event in the summertime, I 6 think, that's around June or something like that, they have 7 an IAS event. The New Year's event. L. Ron Hubbard 8 birthday event. 9 Q Which is March? 10 A March 13th. 11 Some of the more common times that I can think of 12 that he would be there. 13 Q What about non-Scientology holidays such as 14 Thanksgiving? 15 A Not likely -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- in my experience. 18 Q Okay. 19 THE COURT: And the reason he would be at the 20 Ft. Harrison Hotel as opposed to someplace else is 21 because it's the mecca of all -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 The Ft. Harrison is a very beautiful hotel. 24 THE COURT: Is that -- mecca of all 25 technology -- mecca of all technology? 0540 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Was -- 4 THE COURT: Now, on a New Year's event, I 5 thought he was out in California on the tape that I 6 saw. 7 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. That was right 8 in the Ft. Harrison. 9 THE COURT: Oh, it was? 10 MR. WEINBERG: You're talking about two 11 different tapes. The tape that you saw was 12 California. The tape that Mr. Prince was in, was -- 13 THE COURT: In Clearwater. 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- in the Ft. Harrison. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: That was -- Mr. Prince was 20 17 years ago; your -- I don't know when it was. 2000. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. DANDAR: It was less than 20 years ago. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q But anyway, do you -- do you have any recollection 22 of Mr. Miscavige staying at the Ft. Harrison Hotel rather 23 than just showing up for an event? 24 A Well, when I testified earlier about Mr. Miscavige 25 and myself, Vicki Aznaran, you know, the regular crew coming 0541 1 into the Flag Service Organization and rearranging and 2 declaring some people, we stayed there at that time. 3 I mean, you know, whenever Mr. Miscavige would 4 come to the Clearwater area, as well as myself, we always 5 stayed at the Ft. Harrison Hotel. 6 THE COURT: What were the dates that Lisa 7 McPherson was at the Ft. Harrison? 8 MR. DANDAR: November the 18th of '95 through 9 December the 5th of '95. 10 THE COURT: Do you have any information that 11 would say that David Miscavige was or was not at the 12 Ft. Harrison Hotel on those dates? 13 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, beyond what 14 Mr. Dandar is presenting here today, I do not. 15 THE COURT: So regardless, if it weren't for 16 that hearsay document, you have no firsthand 17 knowledge or other way of knowing whether he was 18 there or not. 19 THE WITNESS: Correct. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Mr. Prince, one thing I wanted to ask you about 23 that's out of sequence, and that is after you left the 24 Church of Scientology in 1992, did you have occasion after 25 that time to consult with Scientology attorneys? 0542 1 A Yes, I did. I was contacted by Mr. Mike Sutter, 2 who worked in the Scientology -- worked in the Religious 3 Technology Center. He told me that he wanted me to meet 4 with Mr. Earle Cooley concerning ongoing church litigation. 5 Q And who is Mr. Cooley? 6 A Mr. Earle Cooley was lead counsel for Scientology 7 during the early '80s. 8 Q And what date or what month and year was this that 9 Mr. Sutter asked you to meet with Mr. Cooley? 10 A You know, to the best of my knowledge, I do 11 believe it was 1994. 12 We met in Boston. 13 Q What was the purpose of that meeting? 14 A Well, I thought I was going to go there to speak 15 about current legal cases, because that's what they told me 16 they wanted me to speak about. But in fact, when I got 17 there, it became quite a different show. They wanted me to 18 reaffirm for them the fact that -- you know, the -- under 19 the -- reaffirm the conditions under which I left 20 Scientology, the documents and things that I was -- felt 21 obligated to sign to leave. They wanted to update all of 22 that again. 23 So they recorded me and -- 24 And I -- and I guess I also found out that they 25 were having trouble in the Wollersheim 4 case, in that -- 0543 1 and they wanted to know if persons such as Vicki Aznaran, 2 Lawrence Wollersheim, any attorneys, had contacted me to 3 give testimony concerning Scientology. 4 Q And as of that time, had anyone contacted you? 5 A No. 6 Q And did they pay you for your time? 7 A Yes. 8 Q How much? 9 A I think it was 28- -- 27-, $2,800. 10 Q Was that the last time you were consulted by any 11 representative of the Church of Scientology on matters such 12 as that? 13 A I believe so. 14 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Prince, you -- 15 MR. DANDAR: And I am going to be jumping 16 around here. 17 THE COURT: You said this was 1994? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q All right. Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 21 131. And I have highlighted certain portions of it. I'm 22 going to direct your attention to certain areas. 23 First of all, can you identify this document? 24 A Yes. This is another Scientology issue type. 25 It's called an executive directive. And this is an 0544 1 executive directive concerning senior HCO Int. And it 2 concerns security situations and threat handlings. 3 Q Now at the top it has references, and it has a 4 bunch of HCO policy documents. Is that what -- am I reading 5 that correctly? 6 A Yes. There's four HCO policy letters. The FO -- 7 there's one Flag order; there's one SPD, which is a 8 Scientology policy directives; two more HCO PLs, another 9 SOED, that's a Sea Org executive directive; and a couple of 10 more policy letters. 11 Q Okay. And the references for like the Sea Org 12 executive director 4234 international, it says, 13 "Coordination on security and investigation matters, 14 suppressive acts." Do you see that? 15 A Yes, I do. 16 Q Did I read -- maybe I didn't read that right. 17 A Well, suppressive acts is the HCO PO, 23 December, 18 '65. 19 THE COURT: What does HCO stand for? 20 THE WITNESS: Hubbard Communications Office. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q And the last HCO policy of October 27th, 1964 23 talks -- or concerns physical healing, insanity and sources 24 of trouble. Do you see that? 25 A Yes, I do. 0545 1 Q All right. What does this document, mentioning 2 insanity and healing and sources of trouble, have to do with 3 security? 4 A Well, when you have a -- an insane person or a 5 source of trouble, potential trouble source within a 6 Scientology organization, according to its policies, this is 7 a source of great potential trouble for an organization, be 8 it a Sea Organization or regular Scientology organization, 9 and these gives -- it gives the steps of prevention and 10 handling. 11 Q Is "handling" a word that is used in the policies? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And in this particular checklist, it talks 14 about -- the second paragraph, where I've highlighted, uses, 15 "Make sure the situations are actually handled." 16 A Right. 17 Q Now, turn to page 2, letter G. 18 A Okay. 19 Q First of all, this list is below a paragraph that 20 says the types of security situations, am I reading this 21 correctly, where it says, G, "Attempted suicide cases or PTS 22 Type IIIs and any external or antagonistic connections to 23 these --" are these security issues? 24 A Absolutely. 25 Q Do you have an opinion whether or not this 0546 1 particular checklist would come into play in reference to 2 the Lisa McPherson matter, in November and December of '95? 3 A This -- the date of this issue is the 11th of May, 4 1991, and it's basically instructing the divisions within 5 Scientology organizations to coordinate with OSA -- Office 6 of Special Affairs -- to deal with the situations listed A 7 through O, Type III -- PTS Type IIIs being one of them, PTS 8 Type III being the Scientology term for a psychotic. 9 Q Mr. Prince, this is, as you said, dated May, 1991. 10 Does it surprise you that it references policy letters that 11 are written in 1959 and 1964 and 1968, et cetera? 12 A No. The words of L. Ron Hubbard are eternal to 13 Scientology. 14 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to move Exhibit 131 in 15 evidence. 16 THE COURT: Any objection? 17 MR. WEINBERG: No objection. I don't know what 18 the relevance is, in light of the fact that there 19 isn't anything about RTC in this document. 20 THE COURT: It'll be received. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q All right. And Mr. Prince, let me show you 23 Exhibit 129. 24 I don't have an extra copy here, for some reason. 25 Oh, I do. Okay. 0547 1 Remember yesterday we talked about in order to get 2 the injectable Valium prescriptions and the chloral hydrate 3 prescriptions from drugstores, you talk about staff -- 4 somebody filling out what's called a CSW, completed staff 5 work? 6 A Yes. 7 Q All right. This document, Plaintiff's Exhibit 8 129, do you know where this comes from? 9 A Yes. This comes from the Hubbard Administrative 10 Dictionary, which is a dictionary that defines 11 administrative terms used in Scientology organization. 12 Q Okay. And the definition of completed staff work, 13 does that fit within your understanding of what you 14 testified to yesterday? 15 A Yes, it does. 16 MR. DANDAR: Like to move 129 into evidence. 17 THE COURT: It'll be received. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Also Mr. Prince, you mentioned several times today 20 that -- when I was asking you about bypass and 21 Mr. Miscavige's role, you mentioned you had prior 22 declarations. Let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit 132. 23 First of all, what is 132? 24 A This is a supplemental declaration that was 25 submitted in the Los Angeles courtrooms on behalf of 0548 1 plaintiff Lawrence Wollersheim. 2 Q And this is your declaration? 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Q It's dated December 22nd, 1999? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Is this one of the declarations you were referring 7 to when you said you -- in your testimony today, that you 8 had previously filed declarations on the matters that we 9 talked about? 10 A No. 11 Let me just scan it here real quick. 12 Q All right. 13 A Well, yeah. I think right -- starting on page 2, 14 under the subtitle Sea Organization, I talk about 15 Scientology missions, meaning, you know, a group of people 16 going into an organization, taking it over. I talk about 17 that. 18 Q And on page number 40, you talk about -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I object to this. 20 Why are we doing this? Mr. Dandar can ask him 21 questions, but this is just a hearsay -- I mean, 22 this is an affidavit. He's on the stand. I mean, 23 if there's something he wants to ask him about, he 24 can ask him, instead of saying, "On paragraph such 25 and such it says such and such." 0549 1 THE COURT: Well, I would normally tend to 2 agree with you, except we have affidavits, prior 3 declarations of so many people in this case, I don't 4 know why I would keep the prior declaration of 5 Mr. Prince's out. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q But Mr. Prince, the command channels and structure 8 of the hierarchy of the Church of Scientology in this 9 declaration, Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 132, is it any 10 different than your testimony than you've given in this case 11 today? 12 A No, it is not. 13 Q Is it any different than your -- and the reason 14 why you reached the opinions you reached in August of 1999 15 concerning David Miscavige's role in Lisa McPherson's death? 16 A No, it is not. 17 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to move 132 into evidence 18 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 132. 19 THE COURT: I'm going to receive it over 20 objection, just as a prior affidavit that -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I mean, I -- the 22 objection would be, normally, just buttressing his 23 testimony. 24 THE COURT: That is true. In other words, that 25 would be exactly right. And that would be proper 0550 1 objection, not hearsay or -- 2 However, I'm going to let it in. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q All right. Now, Mr. Prince, have you worked with 5 Mr. Michael Rinder in your tenure in Scientology? 6 A Yes, I have. 7 Q And what did -- how did -- under what 8 circumstances? 9 A Mr. Rinder was a member of the watchdog committee 10 during my tenure at RTC. He was a member of the watchdog 11 committee, a commodore's messenger, and he worked for the 12 corporation the Church of Scientology International. 13 Q What is the watchdog committee? 14 A The watchdog committee are the principals of the 15 Church of Scientology International. The principals of each 16 sector and section of Scientology -- if you look at a 17 Scientology org board, you will -- you will see it's broken 18 down into certain sections and sectors. One -- one sector 19 of Scientology is Scientology International. That means all 20 of the organizations that are not Sea Org organizations and 21 are not missions. 22 So you would have a WDC member, a watchdog 23 committee member, for the Scientology organizations. Then 24 you'd have a WDC member or a watchdog committee member for 25 the Sea Organization. You would have a watchdog committee 0551 1 member for SMI, S-M-I, Scientology Missions International, 2 et cetera, et cetera. 3 Q And who is the head of that watchdog committee? 4 A The chairman of the watchdog committee, during the 5 time -- my tenure in Religious Technology Center, was Mark 6 Yeager. 7 Q And did Mr. Miscavige serve on that board as well? 8 A No, he did not. 9 Q Okay. 10 A That board reported to Mr. Miscavige. 11 Q So Mr. Miscavige was above that board? 12 A Correct. 13 Q Now, Mr. Prince, based upon your experience and 14 expertise in Scientology, do you have an opinion as to why 15 Michael Rinder was meeting with Bob Minton to try to get the 16 McPherson case dismissed, as early as 1998? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the -- I mean, this 18 is pure speculation. It is -- it's -- I think it's 19 improper opinion testimony. 20 He says that he has some expertise -- which we 21 have challenged, you know, for a number of 22 reasons -- with regard to the religious technology. 23 Now he's going to be speculating as to why someone 24 would have been meeting with Mr. Minton? 25 Mr. Minton's testified regarding that; Ms. Brooks 0552 1 has testified in regard to that meeting at length. 2 THE COURT: I -- I understand. We've had some 3 opinions in -- I don't know why we wouldn't listen 4 to his, too. I mean -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: I -- it's more frustration than 6 anything. 7 That's my objection. I understand that you're 8 overruling it, and I just wanted to -- 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 11 A Sorry. I don't remember the question. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Why would Mr. Rinder -- 14 First of all, is Mr. Rinder part of the Flag 15 Service Organization? 16 A To my knowledge, he is not. 17 Q Do you have an opinion as to why Mr. Rinder would 18 be meeting with Mr. Minton, as early as 1988, and of course 19 in 2002, to get the Lisa McPherson case dismissed? 20 A Certainly I have an opinion, based on experience. 21 Because like the Wollersheim case that happened here, and 22 the Mayo case, any major case that's being litigated in the 23 United States, irrespective of the corporation, the 24 decisions, the planning and the execution of legal is done 25 with OSA -- Office of Special Affairs, David Miscavige, 0553 1 Marty Rathbun. 2 Q All right. 3 A Lyman Spurlock if it -- if it involves corporate. 4 Lyman Spurlock was an expert on corporate entities. 5 THE COURT: Who is Mr. Rathbun? What is his 6 capacity? 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rathbun has had many 8 capacities. Prior to coming into the Religious 9 Technology Center, he was what was called a client 10 affairs; legal client affairs. And he handled the 11 legal affairs for the publishing aspect for 12 Mr. Hubbard in Author Services. When he moved to 13 Religious Technology Center, he became the inspector 14 general for ethics. Ethics -- 15 THE COURT: Is that what he is now? 16 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure what he is now -- 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: -- your Honor. 19 But that position handles all legal PR and 20 intelligence as part of its duties for Scientology 21 organizations. 22 THE COURT: And do I recall correctly -- I know 23 we've had a vacation, and frankly some of this has 24 escaped me -- 25 Is Mr. Rinder the head of OSA? 0554 1 MR. DANDAR: Well, Mr. -- at one time, 2 Mr. Shaw, who is the head of OSA here, was -- 3 testified that he reported -- his senior was 4 Mr. Rinder. What his title was to be Mr. Shaw's 5 senior, I don't know. 6 THE COURT: Well, OSA would have a -- 7 Okay. I believe there's testimony about that 8 in this hearing that he is the head of the Office of 9 Special Affairs. I think. Maybe not. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE COURT: Which includes legal. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Now, Mr. Prince, let me show you what's already in 16 evidence as Plaintiff's Exhibit 110, known as KSW News. And 17 if you could, I'm going to -- 18 THE COURT: I don't know -- I allowed the 19 answer, but I don't know what the answer was. I 20 mean, the answer -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Shaw can explain it to you. 22 THE COURT: No. What -- what I think -- he 23 went off to tell us about Mr. Rathbun. I think the 24 question was why would it have been -- why would 25 Mr. Rinder have been called to this meeting. And 0555 1 is -- what is your answer? 2 THE WITNESS: Right. Because Mr. Rinder would 3 have been in that position, the senior person within 4 the OSA network. And OSA operates on a statistic, 5 just like other departments and sections within the 6 Scientology organization operate on. And a 7 statistic for the OSA would be a threat handled; a 8 threat being a lawsuit or a person that was 9 perceived to be an adversary against Scientology or 10 taken an adversarial position against Scientology. 11 So getting rid of a lawsuit would be something that 12 would improve conditions, you know, a statistic 13 going up. That would be a good thing for them. 14 So -- and that's what they focus and concentrate on, 15 handling legal situations. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q OSA. 18 A Yes. 19 Q All right. The KSW News, if you open up to the 20 little -- I believe it should be in the middle -- there is a 21 list of matters that need to be reported up lines to RTC. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you see that? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q And there's an arrow that I drew -- 0556 1 THE COURT: You all are too loud back there. 2 Go ahead. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q -- next to PTS Type III? 5 A "Any person who acts PTS Type III, potential 6 trouble source." 7 Q Okay. 8 A And that is of concern. 9 Q Does PTS Type III include people who are psychotic 10 as well as people who want to leave? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Now, this publication, when was it published? 13 A 1994 -- 14 Q And -- 15 A -- is when the copyright notice is on it, RTC 16 copyright notice. 17 Q All right. So it certainly wasn't published after 18 Lisa McPherson died in '95. 19 A No, it was not. 20 Q Now, this reporting up lines of PTS Type III to 21 RTC, was that in effect when you were an active 22 Scientologist? 23 A Yes, it was. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me. What does that 25 mean, an active Scientologist? When he was -- 0557 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Prior to '92. Prior to you actually leaving -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: When you were at the RTC? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it was. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Now, these meetings that you had with David 7 Miscavige and Rathbun and Mithoff, Aznaran and others, you 8 said there was a certain agenda? 9 A Correct. 10 Q And that the top of that agenda for each of these 11 meetings was what? 12 A Flaps. 13 Q All right. What was -- 14 A And what the handlings were. 15 Q -- the next -- 16 How they were handling the flaps? 17 A Yes. 18 Q What was the -- give us a list of -- in priority 19 of each meeting. 20 A Flaps and handlings. Then statistics, go over the 21 statistics of the departments, the divisions. Then you talk 22 about -- the next thing is talk about wins. 23 Q Wins. 24 A Wins. You know, successes. Scientology 25 successes. Successes on the job, successes within the 0558 1 organization. 2 Q And how often would these meetings occur? 3 A Once a week. 4 Q And this is just a meeting of people who were at 5 RTC? 6 A No. This is a pattern that is continued 7 throughout the majority -- all of Sea Org organizations. 8 Q That includes Flag? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And back in -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I -- the 12 question was about Mr. Miscavige, and the answer 13 obviously was way broader. You're not -- I don't 14 think Mr. Prince was saying Mr. Miscavige was having 15 meetings on a weekly basis at all the Scientology 16 organizations. 17 THE WITNESS: No, no. That's not -- 18 THE COURT: He's saying, when he was a member 19 and he would meet with these people, what was their 20 agenda? That's all -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. No -- but then the next 22 question was -- then what he said was, "And this is 23 done in all Scientology organizations," which 24 means -- I think what he meant was there's meetings 25 every week in Scientology organizations with people 0559 1 in the org. That's what -- 2 THE WITNESS: The pattern of flaps and 3 handlings, statistics and wins, is a pattern that 4 every Sea Org organization has in their meetings, 5 their weekly meetings. Miscavige isn't at those 6 meetings. I -- 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q But at the meetings that you had and you 9 participated in with Mr. Miscavige, were these meetings -- 10 when you say flaps, were they just -- my question was, did 11 they just concern RTC or was it flaps -- 12 A No. 13 Q -- of what -- 14 A When RTC has a meeting about flaps and handlings, 15 it could include any aspect of the Scientology empire. It 16 could include the FSO; it could include the organization in 17 Australia if there was a threat in Australia of some org 18 getting ready to be closed down, or if one of the 19 Scientology organizations were raided in Greece or whatever. 20 You know, it could be anyplace. 21 Q All right. 22 A Because the problems were existing -- in the lower 23 organizations, their flaps -- 24 THE COURT: You need to get to the point. 25 In your opinion, as somebody who was with -- in 0560 1 RTC, at the time you were there, would the Lisa 2 McPherson situation have been discussed at one of 3 those meetings. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Is there any doubt about that? 8 A No. And as I was getting ready to say is, the 9 reason being is the lower organizations have to report to 10 the higher organizations. The higher organizations have to 11 approve the handlings for the flaps; have to verify the 12 statistics. Then it goes to the next organization, who'll 13 do the same thing. And by the time it gets to RTC, it's 14 pretty much confirmed what the lower organization is saying. 15 And maybe the handlings may be modified, but you know, 16 they're pretty much all on the same page. 17 Q Is there any doubt in your mind -- as you sit here 18 today, do you question your opinions that you reached in 19 your August, '99 declaration concerning the involvement of 20 Mr. Miscavige in the Lisa McPherson as a PR flap? 21 A No. I haven't changed my opinion one bit. 22 Q And is that opinion solely your opinion or are you 23 being influenced by anyone to make that opinion? 24 A I base my opinions on my personal experience, what 25 I've observed, the written word of L. Ron Hubbard. 0561 1 Q All right. Now, let's jump now to 2002. The -- 2 we left off with your meeting -- I believe you said you had 3 this rather un- -- not unpleasant, but bad -- heated words 4 were exchanged at that hotel, the Radisson on Clearwater 5 Beach, when you met with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. Do you 6 recall that? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And Ms. Brooks walked out to the parking lot with 9 you? 10 A Yes. 11 Q All right. I want to pick up from there. 12 When is the next time you recall having further 13 conversation with Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton? 14 THE COURT: What -- do we have the date on 15 that? 16 MR. DANDAR: April the 14th. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 A The last -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think he said that -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. April the 14th. 21 THE COURT: Well, he said the dates were as 22 they were in his affidavit, 'cause he sat down with 23 a calendar. 24 MR. DANDAR: Right. 25 A The next time that I talked to them, I think, was 0562 1 maybe a week or some days later, when they were staying at 2 another hotel -- oh, wow. Windham, the Hyatt Windham Hotel. 3 I called and spoke to Bob and asked if he wanted 4 to come by to the -- 'cause I was having a barbecue. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. And Judge, just for 6 the record, I am looking at his April, 2002 Jesse 7 Prince affidavit. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. DANDAR: His handwritten note is 10 April 14th, that's attached, 2002. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Mr. Prince, the handwritten note, did you write 13 that when you met with me and Mr. Lirot? 14 A Yes, I did. 15 Q Okay. And after that is when -- 16 Maybe I'm confused. Let's hold on. 17 After that is when you had the dinner with 18 Mr. Minton? 19 A After I wrote this handwritten note is the Sunday 20 that I met with them at the Radisson. 21 Q Is that when you had that heated conversation -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- at dinner? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Was that -- were you supposed to meet Mr. Rinder 0563 1 that day? 2 A Correct. 3 Q And who told you that? 4 A Mr. Minton, Mrs. Brooks. 5 Q And did you meet with Mr. Rinder on April 14th, 6 2002? 7 A No, I did not. 8 Q Why not? 9 A Because it was deemed by Mr. Minton that I was not 10 ready, because I was not willing to perjure myself. 11 Q And who told you that? 12 A Mr. Minton. 13 Q How did he want you to perjure yourself? 14 A He wanted -- he wanted me to come in and say that 15 you influenced me to write the August, '99 declaration that 16 I did; that you put words in my mouth. And he wanted me to 17 say that some meeting occurred where Mr. Minton was at, 18 where you talked about adding David Miscavige on as a party. 19 And he kept using this term of, like, "You have to walk with 20 us on this because we're going to show you what to do. You 21 know, we're the A team. We got to be together on this. 22 There can't be any breaks. This is what we're doing. This 23 is what I'm saying. This is what you need to do to back it 24 up." 25 Q How did you respond? 0564 1 A "I absolutely will not do it." 2 Q Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew 3 that he was lying? 4 THE COURT: Could I ask -- 5 Just one more minute. 6 What you're saying -- which affidavit is it 7 that they -- they, meaning Mr. Minton -- wanted you 8 to say Mr. Dandar influenced you to write? 9 THE WITNESS: The one where I wrote that 10 Miscavige had knowledge and culpability in Lisa 11 McPherson's death. 12 THE COURT: The one that dealt with the 13 change -- or the amendment of the complaint. Is 14 that the one he's talking about? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That's the one he's talking 16 about. 17 THE COURT: That would have been the first 18 affidavit he filed maybe in this case? 19 Well, it doesn't matter. 20 MR. DANDAR: No. The first one, I think, was 21 the PC folders. 22 THE COURT: I know which one you're talking 23 about. 24 THE WITNESS: It was the second one. 25 MR. DANDAR: It's the August, 1999 affidavit. 0565 1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 THE COURT: And he also wanted you to state -- 3 THE WITNESS: That Mr. Dandar had had a meeting 4 with myself, Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, Mr. Minton, to 5 discuss adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party. 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 THE WITNESS: And apparently Bob was saying, 8 you know, and we have to say that Mr. Dandar said 9 that the meeting never happened, and you know, we 10 were adding on Miscavige basically to try to force 11 Scientology into a settlement position. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Was any of that true? 14 A No. 15 THE COURT: Could we find out, since that does 16 seem to be an issue here, what he remembers about 17 whatever meeting there was to discuss adding 18 Mr. Miscavige as a party? Or are you not ready for 19 that, or are you not going to go there, or -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm trying to not invade my 21 work product as much as possible. But it is an 22 issue, and so I didn't -- 23 We can ask him that question. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. DANDAR: I just don't know how far I want 0566 1 to invade my work product. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q But Mr. Prince, do you recall having any meeting 4 with me, Dr. Garko and Stacy Brooks about adding on David 5 Miscavige -- 6 THE COURT: I'm not going to let them get into 7 the extent of the discussion necessarily, other than 8 what we've done thus far in this hearing, which is 9 who was there -- 10 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 11 THE COURT: -- and was there a discussion about 12 adding Mr. Miscavige, and who was in favor of it and 13 who wasn't? That's pretty much all that's been 14 discussed. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: And it's been discussed by a lot of 17 witnesses -- 18 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 19 THE COURT: -- Stacy Brooks, Mr. Minton, 20 Mr. Garko, you. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. So -- 22 That's fine. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q So was there such a meeting? 25 A There was a meeting between you, myself, 0567 1 Mrs. Brooks, Dr. Garko, where we discussed -- and I mean, my 2 recollection is there's been more than one time that we 3 discussed this -- about adding Mr. Miscavige on as a party. 4 Q Was Mr. Minton ever at any of those meetings? 5 A No, he was not. 6 Q Do you have any idea why Mr. Minton would tell 7 you, when you met with him in April, why he wanted to say he 8 was at a meeting to add on David Miscavige? 9 A Because the idea was -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. If it's something 11 Mr. Minton told him, fine. But otherwise it would 12 just be pure conjecture. 13 THE COURT: That's true. If it's something 14 Mr. Minton told him, then he can discuss it. 15 Go ahead. 16 A Okay. The idea that Mr. Minton told me is 17 Scientology had several things that they wanted Mr. Minton 18 to do. These were in conjunction and coordination with 19 things that could be done to get the case dismissed. 20 Specifically, going after you. Specifically, you 21 were to be made the target of whatever stack of papers that 22 Scientology provided to Mr. Minton. There was five or six 23 things that they wanted him to do in relationship to you 24 only. And you were the obvious target -- 25 0568 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Why? 3 A -- to -- 4 Because they wanted to get you kicked off the 5 case. Because they figured if they got you kicked off the 6 case, then no other attorney would pick it up and the suit 7 would simply go away. 8 Q And Mr. Minton told you this. 9 A Yes. 10 Q And how many times did he tell you that? 11 A Several. 12 Q Did Mr. Minton ever indicate to you that he knew 13 that what he was saying about me was not true? 14 A Mr. Minton was in -- in the -- in the very 15 beginning, Mr. Minton was in anguish over the -- the 16 prospect of -- of lying on behalf of Scientology for -- 17 against you. Mrs. Brooks was in a panic and desperate frame 18 of mind to do whatever it took to extricate Mr. Minton from 19 just the assault that Scientology was enacting upon 20 Mr. Minton. And she thought that it would be a good idea 21 for Mr. Minton to cooperate with Mr. Rinder, with Mr. Rosen, 22 whatever they wanted, to get him extricated from the 23 Scientology assault. 24 Q Did Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks tell you that -- 25 Well, you said they -- let me go back. 0569 1 You said something about Scientology gave 2 Mr. Minton a stack of papers about what he needed to say 3 against me? 4 A Yes. 5 Q What -- 6 A Or possible things to go into. And that's the 7 stuff that came from the Adams Mark Hotel, after we had the 8 meeting, after I went to see him again, after he lied the 9 first time on the stand. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection. 11 A And -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: If this is -- 13 THE COURT: Wait a minute. 14 MR. WEINBERG: If this is the same stack that 15 Mr. Prince testified yesterday that he never looked 16 at -- 17 THE COURT: Right. 18 MR. WEINBERG: -- so how's he going to answer 19 questions about what was in the stack? 20 THE COURT: He's not answering questions about 21 what was in the stack. He's talking about what 22 Mr. Minton told him. That's all he's supposed to 23 testify about. 24 MR. DANDAR: That's what he's doing. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 0570 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q You didn't look at the stack of papers, right? 3 A No, I did not. 4 Q So how do you know what was in the stack of 5 papers? 6 A 'Cause he told me. There were five to six things 7 in there that Scientology wanted him to do against you, and 8 you specifically, and you only. 9 Q Okay. 10 A And two of them were the check. You know, somehow 11 saying that you caused him to perjure himself concerning the 12 check. And then the meeting. These were two very important 13 issues to -- 14 You know, I can't say that I fully understood it 15 because I'm not a lawyer, but this was very important that 16 they executed in that way. 17 Q Okay. And let's talk about the check, all right? 18 A Okay. 19 Q Did Mr. Minton ever tell you that -- after he met 20 with Scientology, did he ever tell you that the check was 21 from him; that May, $2,000 (sic) check for $500,000? 22 A At that time he did. 23 Q All right. Did you have any conversation with him 24 as to why he told you something different on the roof of the 25 parking lot across from the Lisa McPherson Trust office? 0571 1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered. 2 He talked about that yesterday. 3 THE COURT: I think he did. 4 MR. DANDAR: Did he? 5 THE COURT: Yeah, I believe he did. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. Okay. 7 THE COURT: Do you remember -- sometimes one 8 day bleeds into the next. I do know he talked about 9 being on the roof of the parking lot, and I do know 10 he talked about Mr. Minton telling him something 11 different. Did he -- 12 Did you discuss yesterday with us why 13 Mr. Minton said he was telling a different story 14 now? I don't remember. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, your Honor. Your 16 recall is actually quite correct. Because you 17 yourself asked me, "Well, what did they say," when I 18 brought up the fact that we had been on the roof. 19 And he had told us this whole different story. And 20 you asked me, "Well, what did they say," and I said 21 that, "They just looked at me stupidly." But of 22 course -- 23 THE COURT: So is the answer then he really 24 didn't say anything about this difference -- 25 THE WITNESS: Right. 0572 1 THE COURT: -- that you're telling that -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Changed the subject. 3 THE COURT: Changed the subject. 4 THE WITNESS: Right. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Did you ever talk to him again about the check, or 8 was that the last time? 9 A I think that is the last time I spoke to him about 10 the check. 11 Q Okay. Did you have any other conversations with 12 Mr. Minton or Ms. Brooks about trying to get you to lie and 13 go down the road with him, as you say? 14 A Well, I had continuing conversations with them 15 after negotiate -- after they had the negotiations in New 16 York and then began the negotiations -- continued the 17 negotiations in Clearwater. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, my objection, your Honor, 19 is he went over all this yesterday. 20 MR. DANDAR: Right. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, now we're going back and 22 we're going to go repeat what happened yesterday. 23 THE COURT: That's true. I think we really 24 were, yesterday, up to the point of this forward 25 meeting. 0573 1 MR. DANDAR: That's right. 2 THE COURT: Although frankly, you never did 3 discuss the meeting where there was a discussion to 4 have Mr. Miscavige added. And I think he's done 5 that now. 6 MR. DANDAR: Yes, he has. 7 THE COURT: Right. And -- and that was the 8 second thing. And I -- I think now you've explained 9 that. So you can go -- I shouldn't say you -- 10 Mr. Prince can explain what. 11 THE WITNESS: There was something I left off 12 about Mr. Miscavige -- adding Miscavige as well, in 13 the discussions that I had with Mrs. Brooks and 14 Mr. -- 15 THE COURT: Oh, yeah. I don't believe he's 16 ever discussed with us what his discussions with 17 Mr. Minton were about that. 18 THE WITNESS: Right. 19 THE COURT: So you might want to. 20 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Go ahead. 23 THE WITNESS: As you well know, and certainly 24 Mr. Weinberg well knows, we all sat before Judge 25 Moody forever on this issue of adding David 0574 1 Miscavige as a party. We discussed this back and 2 forth. 3 MR. WEINBERG: "We" being -- 4 THE WITNESS: The judge said a key question to 5 be asked was, is was that anything I wanted to have 6 happen? The answer is no. I was not in favor of 7 adding David Miscavige. I thought it would drag 8 down the lawsuit and just be cumbersome. 9 THE COURT: That's you. You were not in favor 10 of adding him. 11 THE WITNESS: Right. 12 But in discussions about this, it was decided 13 to do it anyway, and it was decided because this is 14 what Ms. Liebreich wanted to do. 15 But we discussed this. 16 And my -- my thing with Mr. Minton as we were 17 talking about this when they were trying to get me 18 to do this, is when the record is so obvious why and 19 how that happened, why are you now trying to say 20 it's just all Ken's fault, when Mrs. Brooks was the 21 one that was really wanting this to happen; wanting 22 to add Miscavige? 23 So we talked about that. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Okay. 0575 1 THE COURT: And what did he say? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Talked about it 3 when, then? 4 So now it's Ms. Brooks or Ms. Liebreich that 5 wanted this to happen. I mean, I -- 6 THE COURT: No. No. I understand this. Wait 7 till you get the transcript. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 9 THE COURT: It'll be very clear to you. Don't 10 get all flustered. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not flustered. 12 THE COURT: Yes, you are. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm hungry. 14 THE COURT: I'm hungry too. We're going to 15 stop at 12:30. Did you say you were hungry? 16 MR. DANDAR: That's what he said. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I said. 18 MR. DANDAR: That's a new objection. 19 THE COURT: Just so we see if the testimony's 20 consistent -- 21 At this meeting, Jesse Prince was not in favor 22 of adding Mr. Miscavige; Stacy Brooks really wanted 23 to add David Miscavige. What about Dr. Garko? 24 THE WITNESS: Dr. Garko was hesitant about it. 25 And -- 0576 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: And Mr. Minton didn't care one 3 way or the other. I mean -- 4 THE COURT: I thought Mr. Minton wasn't there. 5 THE WITNESS: You know, later, when we 6 discussed it, when, you know, Stacy -- we went to 7 the office. And Stacy says, "Well, I think, we're 8 going to do this," and he's, like, "Yeah, okay. So 9 what?" Because Mr. Minton always -- you know, he 10 was concerned about what he was doing. Mr. Minton 11 wasn't concerned with what Mr. Dandar was doing 12 or -- or what Mr. Prince was doing or Mr. Brooks 13 (sic). He had his own agenda. When he came down 14 to -- here in Florida, he would be more concerned 15 about what he was doing. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Well, was there a meeting with Mr. Minton? 18 A No. 19 Q Well, what are you talking about when you said 20 Minton -- Mr. Minton didn't care? 21 A I recall Stacy Brooks and myself having a 22 conversation with Mr. Minton, mentioning the fact that we 23 were doing this. 24 Q Oh, okay. Was I there, or Dr. Garko? 25 A No. 0577 1 Q All right. 2 A No. And he's like, "Okay. Where do you guys want 3 to eat," type of thing. You know, he just didn't care. 4 "Okay." You know, that's -- "Ken --" "Whatever." 5 Q Did Mr. Minton ever tell you he had an agenda? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, could we 7 date that meeting? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Let's date the meeting. 9 MR. WEINBERG: And where it was? 10 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. 11 THE WITNESS: When Stacy and I discussed it, I 12 think it was probably -- some -- maybe a week or 13 sometime prior to the fifth amended complaint 14 actually being filed -- 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Well -- 17 A -- we discussed it. 18 Q -- there were several times that the fifth amended 19 complaint -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor -- 21 A Well, okay. To answer the question, no, I don't 22 know when it was. I just know -- 23 THE COURT: No. I think -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: My objection was Mr. Dandar 25 prompting him. 0578 1 THE COURT: No, he wasn't prompting him. 2 There were several fifth amended complaints. I 3 would like to know. 4 Was it the fifth amended complaint where 5 Mashburn (sic) and -- Rathbun -- all those other 6 people were added or was it the fifth amended 7 complaint that's now the complaint? 8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- I don't -- 9 THE COURT: Or do you know? 10 THE WITNESS: I don't have a clear recollection 11 of which -- 12 THE COURT: Was this a discussion where it was 13 decided to add Mr. Miscavige as, I guess, chairman 14 of the board of RTC -- I don't know how -- I've 15 never seen that complaint -- or was it before the 16 discussion to add Mr. Miscavige as head of the Sea 17 Org? 18 THE WITNESS: I think it was after the 19 discussion to add -- after it had been resolved that 20 Mr. Miscavige could be added as head of the Sea Org. 21 You know -- 22 THE COURT: After it was resolved by whom? By 23 Judge Moody? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. By Judge Moody. 25 THE COURT: Then you had a discussion with 0579 1 Mr. Minton about this? 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I believe he, Stacy and I 3 were in the car, traveling, and we talked about it. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q So it was after the hearing we had, you said took 7 forever, with Judge Moody? 8 A I know that it became a serious possibility after 9 we exhausted, in front of Judge Moody, every way of whether 10 or not it would be correct or appropriate or even allowed to 11 do it; coming in as head of the Sea Org, when Judge Moody 12 said that it could -- that he could be added as head of the 13 Sea Org, not as COB because of that agreement. 14 Q Right. 15 A Which, you know, I didn't even know about until 16 after the fact. 17 MR. DANDAR: All right. Okay. Probably a good 18 time to break for lunch, unless you have a question, 19 Judge. 20 THE COURT: I think it's a good time to break 21 for lunch. We'll be in recess -- you know, an hour 22 just isn't enough. I need to make some phone calls 23 and sign some things. We're going to break until 24 quarter till 2. Court's in recess. 25 MR. WEINBERG: And the same instructions to 0580 1 Mr. Prince. 2 THE COURT: Same instruction. 3 (A recess was taken at 12:29 p.m.) 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0581 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 9th day of July, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25