721 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 6 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Jesse Prince. 17 DATE: July 10, 2002. Morning Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 722 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 7 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 8 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 9 10 MR. LEE FUGATE MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 11 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 12 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 13 Organization. 14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 15 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 16 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 17 Organization. 18 MR. HOWARD ROSS 19 Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A. 980 Tyrone Boulevard 20 St. Petersburg, Florida 33710 Counsel for Robert Minton. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 723 1 THE COURT: Good morning. Mr. Prince. All 2 right. Mr. Dandar, you are standing. You must want 3 something. 4 MR. DANDAR: Well, we have a proposed order 5 here. I have some responses here. I have 6 declarations of Stacy Brooks and others I want to 7 file. But let's just go with Mr. Prince. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 (A discussion was held off the record.) 10 THE COURT: What day is today? The 10th? I 11 was looking, what is -- how many days of hearings is 12 this? 13 THE BAILIFF: 30. 14 THE COURT: No, no. Mr. Bailiff says 30. Does 15 anybody -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Add zero to that. That is where 17 we are. 18 THE COURT: Is that where we are, 30? 19 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. 20 THE COURT: Good morning, Mr. Ross. Are you 21 designated Mr. Minton's attorney here today? 22 MR. ROSS: That is correct. 23 THE COURT: I think that probably you have been 24 advised Mr. Minton needs a lawyer in this proceeding 25 and, therefore, we welcome you. But you have no Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 724 1 ability to object in this particular proceeding. 2 MR. ROSS: I understand, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: You understand you may hear some 4 very weird testimony as far as some strange 5 evidentiary rulings. But this is a strange hearing 6 and sort of the rules of evidence -- we're going to 7 deal with that after the hearing. 8 MR. ROSS: I understand. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Just give me a minute, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: I will. I will ask Mr. Dandar, 13 while you are doing that, did you have a chance to 14 E-Mail Mr. Henson? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I did. And he E-mailed me 16 back and said, "Can you find me a lawyer, is it 17 worth it?" I said no, both questions. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I notified Mr. Hill's 20 secretary that Mr. Rosen would not be called. And I 21 should have an order here on the pro hac vice, if it 22 is not by the morning break, by noontime. 23 THE COURT: All right. Fine. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: I would just like to inquire, 25 does that mean Mr. Henson is abandoning his motion? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 725 1 THE COURT: No, I think what that means, he 2 will not be represented. And I suspect you 3 should -- as I said, let me have time to read it. I 4 may be able to rule on your motion without any 5 argument. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Very good. 7 THE COURT: But, frankly, I want to still leave 8 it scheduled for hearing, because he may get 9 somebody to appear. And we'll deal with it at the 10 scheduled time. I would not assume that is an 11 abandonment. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: All right. 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. WEINBERG: All right? I'm ready. 16 THE COURT: You may proceed. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Mr. Prince, you -- I think you said on your direct 19 testimony -- but let me go over it again -- you have 20 testified previously as a witness under oath in either trial 21 testimony or deposition testimony. Is that right? 22 A In this -- in this case, yes, I have. 23 Q In other cases, as well. Correct? 24 A Yes, I have. 25 Q And -- and is it your testimony that at all times Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 726 1 in those other cases when you were under oath, that you 2 testified truthfully? 3 A Yes, it is. 4 Q Okay. Now, yesterday -- or the day before, 5 whenever it was -- you testified that you had participated 6 in the destruction of PC folders, particularly 7 Mr. Wollersheim's PC folder which he said was pulped, I 8 believe, while you were at RTC? 9 A Correct. 10 Q Now, you remember testifying as a witness in 1989 11 in the lawsuit Religious Technology versus Joseph Yanny? 12 A I do not. 13 Q You don't remember that? 14 A No, I do not. 15 THE COURT: I don't even remember hearing about 16 that case. That is a new one for me. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q I thought you testified, by the way, on your 19 direct, that you had been a witness in that case, in fact, 20 that while you were in Scientology, you were actually a 21 witness in that case. 22 A No. While I was in Scientology I said I was a 23 witness in the Wollersheim 4 case, specifically concerning 24 the Advancability Center, David Mayo. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach the witness, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 727 1 your Honor? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Let me show you a transcript of your deposition 5 taken in Los Angeles, California on September 11, 1989 and 6 ask you if you can identify that transcript and identify 7 that as your testimony on that day under oath, and at the 8 end you'll see an errata sheet which I believe also has your 9 signature on it. 10 A What is this on? On September '89? Okay. 11 Then -- 12 Q At the end is an errata sheet. Do you see that? 13 A Uh-huh. 14 Q And you see that you -- do you recognize your 15 signature on there dated -- 16 A 12 December, '89. Yes, I do. 17 Q Obviously -- I'll leave this here because I have a 18 few questions on it. Obviously you testified as a witness 19 in 1989 and were given the opportunity to review that 20 testimony and make corrections. Correct? 21 A I don't -- Mmm -- recall that, Mr. Weinberg, but 22 since I did sign the errata sheet, I'll say okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: I would like to have a copy of 24 that, Judge. If they're going to start using it, 25 pulling things out of context, I would like to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 728 1 able to review it. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's amazing I'm being 3 accused of pulling something out of context. 4 MR. DANDAR: We all do, we pull something out 5 and say, "Did you say this?" 6 THE COURT: If you are going to use a 7 deposition and he doesn't have a copy of it, he 8 ought to have a copy of it. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Do we have an extra copy of it? 10 Do we have copies of these? 11 THE COURT: I tell you what, go ahead and use 12 it and then get him a copy before Mr. Dandar -- 13 Mr. Dandar, please listen if you care, maybe you 14 don't care. If you care, I'll have them provide you 15 a copy of the deposition before your redirect. 16 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 17 THE COURT: If anything was pulled out of 18 context, you can correct it. 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Now, in addition -- 21 THE COURT: You-all provide him a copy. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q Now, in addition to your testimony in this 25 proceeding that you had participated in the destruction of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 729 1 PC folders, you also, in your August 20, 1999 affidavit, 2 that is the -- the affidavit where you made the accusation 3 about David Miscavige, in that affidavit, in Paragraph 22 4 you swore that you had participated in the destruction of 5 Wollersheim's PC folder. Correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q Now, if you will turn, Mr. Prince -- when I get 8 the right folder here -- to Page 153 of your Yanny 9 deposition. You find Page 153? 10 A Mmm, just about. I have it here. 11 Q I want you to read Line 5, 6 and 7. 12 "Question: Were you ever involved in the 13 destruction of PC folders? 14 "Answer. No." 15 Okay. That was your sworn testimony then, 16 correct? 17 A Yes, it was. 18 Q And when you go to that errata sheet, does it say 19 anything about you making any mistakes with regard to that 20 sworn answer where you swore under oath in 1989 that you had 21 not been involved in the destruction of PC folders? 22 A Mr. -- you know, I don't recall this errata sheet, 23 to answer the question that quickly. I don't even recall 24 the errata sheet. 25 THE COURT: The real question is that was your Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 730 1 testimony on that date, is that right? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, this was the testimony I had 3 given on that date. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q And you previously testified that all your prior 6 sworn testimony was true. Correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q So you lied here in court when you said that you 9 had participated in PC folders being destroyed? 10 A Well, you know, I have to at least look at a 11 couple pages earlier here to kind of get an idea what was 12 going on here to orient myself to 1989. 13 Q Look at a couple pages earlier. 14 THE COURT: Might I just ask, where he was 15 reading, was he testifying for plaintiff, or 16 defendant? 17 MR. WEINBERG: He was testifying for the 18 Church. For RTC. 19 A Okay. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q That was certainly -- you wouldn't have had a 22 recollection problem back in 1989, would you, as to what had 23 occurred a year or so or two or three before that, as 24 opposed to 2002, talking about things that supposedly 25 happened? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 731 1 A Mmm, Mr. Weinberg, I -- I don't think I would have 2 had a recollection problem, but maybe I would have had a 3 problem with coercion. 4 Q Let's see now -- 5 A Or -- or manipulation. 6 Q Excuse me. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to 7 interrupt. 8 A Or manipulation. This was a very bad time for me. 9 This was shortly -- well, let's see, this was a couple years 10 after I had been away from any position of authority. I was 11 still being asked to -- Mmm -- participate in the courts, 12 for whatever reason, God only knows. And I was not in a 13 very good state of mind. 14 Q Well, I thought you said you were relieved 15 yesterday to leave your post at RTC and that you were in a 16 better state of mind as a result of being relieved and not 17 having to do all those things that you swore yesterday and 18 the day before that you had participated in. 19 A Certainly in that regard, Mr. Weinberg, I was 20 relieved. But I didn't have a lot of direction for my life. 21 I think I was pretty suicidal at that point. And I had 22 written about that, as well. 23 Q All right. So you started saying these things 24 about destroying PC folders after people started paying you, 25 like Mr. Minton and Mr. Leipold and through Mr. Dandar, that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 732 1 is when you started saying these things, not when you 2 weren't being paid. 3 A No, Mr. Weinberg, quite the contrary. I -- this 4 came out because I decided that it was no longer an 5 operating principle of mine that the greatest good is for 6 Scientology. I kind of -- you know, just kind of got away 7 from that. 8 Q So it's a principle now the greatest good for 9 Jesse Prince, whoever will put the money in your pocket, 10 that is what you'll say? 11 A No, Mr. Weinberg, the greatest good is the truth 12 and justice and equity. 13 Q All right. So what you're saying, just so I get 14 this right, you lied back in 1989? 15 A Yes -- yes. According to these documents, I lied 16 on behalf of Scientology. 17 Q All right. And you lied in -- I'll just refresh 18 your recollection about being asked about this before -- do 19 you remember giving a deposition in this case when -- when I 20 deposed you? 21 A I think you and I have been at it a time or two. 22 Q And do you remember that I asked you the questions 23 on Page -- I'll refer now to Page 465 of your deposition 24 of -- of November 17, November 18, 1999. 25 "Question: Now, when you testified -- how many Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 733 1 times have you testified in your entire career, life? 2 "Answer: In a courtroom or deposition setting? 3 "Question: Both. 4 "Answer: Possibly five. 5 "Question: All right, and each time you 6 testified, whether in deposition or in court, you were under 7 oath, right? 8 "Answer: Correct. 9 "You raised your hand and swore to tell the truth. 10 "Answer: Correct. 11 "Question: Nothing but the truth, right? 12 "Answer: Correct. 13 "And you testified truthfully on those five 14 occasions. 15 "Answer: Correct. 16 "Question: You didn't perjure yourself. 17 "Answer: Correct. 18 "Question: So if you were asked the questions in 19 a deposition that I asked and those were your answers then 20 when you gave those answers, it is your testimony that they 21 were truthful answers, correct? 22 "Answer: Well, you know, yeah, okay. I'll say 23 yeah, okay, yeah." 24 Then later in the deposition -- do you remember 25 being asked those questions and giving those answers? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 734 1 A No, I do not, Mr. Weinberg. 2 Q Do you remember being asked on Page 469 of your 3 deposition two years ago, "You testified in the Yanny case 4 we've already talked about, was that deposition and trial or 5 just deposition? 6 "Answer: I believe it was just deposition. And 7 again, I was never afforded the opportunity -- well, no, I'm 8 sorry, I'll answer the direct question, I won't tell 9 stories. Yes." 10 Do you remember being asked that question and 11 giving that answer? 12 A No, Mr. Weinberg. But if it's there, then I 13 believe it. 14 Q So apparently three years ago when we took your 15 deposition you remembered the Yanny case testimony but today 16 you don't? 17 A I -- Mr. Weinberg, I think that is a bit of 18 mischaracterization to say I would have remembered the Yanny 19 testimony. You know, this document here is a couple hundred 20 pages long. I -- I don't think any of us are capable of 21 remembering a couple hundred pages of something that 22 happened ten years ago. 23 Q Is there a particular reason why, in all these 24 accusations you made against Scientology, you didn't say, 25 "And they told me to perjure myself in 1989 in the Yanny Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 735 1 deposition"? Why didn't you do that? 2 A Well, the fact of the matter is, Mr. Weinberg, 3 again, like I -- I was damaged goods during that time. I 4 had gone through a lot of stress, a lot of -- Mmm -- 5 decisions to change my life. Mmm, didn't have certain -- 6 you know, a certainty on where I was going with my life. I 7 felt pretty hopeless. 8 But let's talk about the perjury here since this 9 is the subject here. What I have testified to before 10 concerning preclear folder destruction is the fact that 11 because these preclear folders of Mr. Wollersheim were being 12 asked to be produced and ultimately the whole folders were 13 turned over, the order to destroy the folders came from 14 Mr. Miscavige with Mr. Rathbun present, myself, Vicki 15 Aznaran. It became my responsibility to report when that 16 fact was done. 17 I myself was not the person that destroyed the 18 preclear folders or had -- or pulped them. Rick Aznaran is 19 the person, along with another current Office of Special 20 Affairs, Charlie Earl, rented a truck, took these folders; 21 Vicki Aznaran -- Lawrence Wollersheim, possibly Bill Franks, 22 Gerry Armstrong and others took them to the recycling plant, 23 and when Mr. Aznaran came back, he showed me a liquid bottle 24 with paper on -- with the pulp paper on the bottom. 25 So technically did I know about it? Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 736 1 Technically did I do it? No. 2 Q Oh, I see. 3 A But I sanctioned it and I went along with it. 4 Q So perjury -- the question was: "Were you ever 5 involved in the destruction of PC folders? 6 "Answer: No." 7 That is not perjury because you have somehow 8 justified in your mind that you really weren't involved 9 because you didn't actually pull the switch? Is that what 10 you're saying? 11 A No, I'm saying that I'm not the person that 12 actually did it myself, but I knew about it. And reported 13 about it. 14 Q Is that -- 15 A I didn't stop it. So, you know, the fact of the 16 matter is I won't beat around the bush with you, 17 Mr. Weinberg. Right here I was not being truthful. 18 Q Now, did somebody tell you to perjure yourself? 19 Is this something that somebody told you to do? Or you just 20 did this on your own? 21 A No, I was told to do it. Mr. Earle Cooley, who 22 was lead counsel for the Church of Scientology at the time, 23 wanted me to do it. Mr. Rathbun, who was -- was again and 24 always responsible for church legal, wanted me to do it. 25 Mmm, I was being a good Scientologist and protecting Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 737 1 Scientology. 2 Q That is amazing. So when this started out you 3 didn't have any recollection of the Yanny deposition, you 4 don't remember having even signed the errata sheet, and now 5 you have this clear recollection that -- that Mr. Cooley, a 6 lawyer who is on the board of trustees of Boston College -- 7 or Boston University, and Mr. Rathbun told you to lie? Is 8 that what you're saying now? 9 A Mr. -- Mr. Weinberg, I mean, because we are 10 talking about this, because you have presented me with 11 documentation, we've discussed it, I think I do have a mind 12 and I can have some recollection about this. And I'm just 13 telling you what happened here. 14 Mmm, there are other things that I have written 15 specifically about my relationship with Earle Cooley, and 16 because you have all of those E-Mails, I'm sure you have 17 those in evidence, too. That is not the only thing that I 18 thought was unethical that happened with Mr. Cooley, 19 irrespective of where he sits. 20 Q So the way it works is, if we can catch you at it 21 and if we can show you a video or show you some testimony 22 where you perjured yourself, then it's an indiscretion, 23 essentially, you sort of caught me. Is that the way it 24 works? 25 MR. DANDAR: Objection, argumentative. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 738 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 A Mmm -- 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q It was sustained, Mr. Prince. 5 THE COURT: You don't have to answer the 6 question. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Now, you said your life was hopeless? 9 A Correct. 10 Q When was this deposition, 1989? 11 A Correct. 12 Q But having been hopeless, you stayed another three 13 years? 14 A I stayed another five years after my life was 15 pretty much hopeless. You know, I fell into the 16 hopelessness -- you know, right in 1987 when that whole 17 thing happened I was ready to leave Scientology at that 18 point. All I wanted to do was walk away. I had to escape 19 to leave because I was in the RPF, walking through the 20 desert, on and on, and I'm sure you don't want to hear that 21 story. 22 Q That story? Is that what you said? Do I want to 23 hear the story? 24 A Let's please maintain civility here, Mr. Weinberg. 25 Q All right, I asked you -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 739 1 A I'm trying to explain this to you. I had escaped. 2 I had helped Vicki Aznaran escape. We were being kept in 3 the RPF in a -- behind a -- Soboba Indian Reservation in the 4 most horrid conditions. All I wanted to do was walk away. 5 I had to threaten to go to the press, threaten to go to the 6 police, the same thing I suspect Lisa had to do when she 7 tried to leave, as well. 8 And ultimately because the woman that I was 9 married to, who had no idea what I had been involved in, 10 what my position really was in the Church of Scientology, 11 what my participation was, it came down to Mr. Mithoff, 12 Mr. Miscavige specifically talking to my wife and telling 13 her what a horrible person I was and that I'm blowing and 14 I'm psychotic and I'm crazy because I want to leave and this 15 kind of thing. 16 So then I was faced with even a bigger problem. 17 And my bigger problem was now am I just going to walk out of 18 Scientology and leave this person that I love, that I'm 19 married to, because she hasn't woke even up, because she 20 doesn't understand, because I haven't been with her and let 21 her know what's going on. And that is kind of a problem in 22 Scientology in and of itself because the right hand doesn't 23 know what the left hand is doing. You are not allowed to 24 talk about your case, you're not allowed to talk about 25 secret this, secret that. So we had had a breach of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 740 1 communication for many years. 2 But in my mind at that time I was thinking, you 3 know, I'm not going to desert another person in my life, I'm 4 not going to desert this woman for Scientology. I will sit 5 here with her until she sees what I see. And I was 6 actually, therefore, there for another five years. 7 And these are points I have written about as well. 8 I felt almost like an animal, I had no mind, no brain, no 9 will, nothing. And this is what happened to me and I went 10 and did this and it was wrong. And yeah, I did that and you 11 have pointed it out and here we are. 12 Q Now, in 1989 when you perjured yourself -- 13 A Uh-huh? 14 Q -- according to your testimony now, or didn't, 15 depending upon whether you perjured yourself in this 16 hearing, you weren't on the RPF, were you, in 1989? You 17 were working in the Golden Era studio, correct? 18 A I think in 1989 I was on what is considered -- 19 what is called the DPF, the Deck Project Force. The reason 20 I say that is because in 1987 when I was removed from my 21 position and I went to the RPF -- Mmm -- I think I was there 22 for -- until December of '87. 23 In December of '87 I got off the RPF, I started 24 trying to practice auditing again. I did that for some time 25 and really didn't want to do it anymore. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 741 1 Toward the end of '88, I believe, a security guard 2 at Golden Era Productions got kind of rough with my wife. 3 THE COURT: You know, this really doesn't 4 matter where he was. You weren't in RPF. 5 A No, I was in DPF. I wasn't in Golden Era 6 Productions, I mean, working in the studios, as you 7 suggested. I was actually on the DPF. And this is the same 8 period I did that watch with Mrs. Brooks, Terese or -- or 9 Teresita -- 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q That was in '88? 12 A That was in '88? 13 Q Yes. You say things were hopeless for you? 14 Things were hopeless for you in 1997 and 1998, as well, 15 wasn't it? 16 A I wouldn't say that. 17 Q You filed for bankruptcy and went bankrupt in 18 November of -- filed in what, May of '97, and it was 19 finalized in November of '97, correct? 20 A I believe there are documents to that effect that 21 have the correct dates. 22 Q But -- but you went bankrupt in 1997, correct? 23 A Mmm -- 24 Q Yes, or no? 25 A Yes, I did. I believe that is correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 742 1 Q So you were broke in 1997? 2 A I filed for bankruptcy in 1997, but I -- I wasn't 3 able to pay my bills adequately in 1997. 4 Q And except for Mr. Minton coming like an angel 5 from heaven in June of 1998, you didn't know what you were 6 going to do? 7 A Utterly and completely false. 8 Q After Mr. Minton appeared on the scene you then 9 hooked up with Stacy Brooks, you hooked up with Dan Leipold, 10 you hooked up with Ken Dandar, and since that time this is 11 what you have been doing, getting paid to testify, write 12 affidavits and work against Scientology, correct? 13 A No, that is absolutely incorrect and it is false. 14 Q Now, let's go back to the deposition for a moment. 15 Now, you testified under oath a lot about the GO and OSA and 16 all that. Do you remember that, here in this proceeding? 17 You said you had all this knowledge about the kinds of 18 activities that had gone on. Do you remember that? 19 A No, I think you are mischaracterizing my earlier 20 testimony. I don't think that the words Guardian's Office 21 exited my lips during these proceedings. I have spoke about 22 OSA and I have -- I have presented Mr. Hubbard's eternal 23 words on -- on what intelligence is expected to do, what 24 legal is expected to do and some of what public relations is 25 supposed to do. I think that better characterizes -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 743 1 Q Well, let me refresh your recollection, if you 2 remember on June 18 saying, "Question, was there any 3 carryover from the Guardian's Office to OSA? 4 "Answer: Yes, there was, there was a carryover of 5 some of the staff and some of the policies. 6 Then you went on to say, "Question, was OSA still 7 Department 20 like the Guardian's Office was? 8 You said, "Yes, OSA wanted to make sure they 9 didn't make the same mistakes as the past Guardian Office 10 was. One of the mistakes was putting in writing and 11 detailing some of the operations." 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q Do you remember that? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Now, turn to Page 149, please, of the Yanny 16 deposition. 17 A Okay. 18 Q I want you to read Line 5 through Line 16 -- Line 19 5 through Line 13 -- 16, I'm sorry. 20 A To 16? 21 Q Yes, just read it out loud. 22 MR. DANDAR: Objection, that is not the way you 23 do it. 24 THE COURT: That is true. 25 A I have read it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 744 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q I'll read it. Did you give -- were you asked 3 these questions and give these answers? 4 MR. DANDAR: Objection, that is not the way 5 you -- 6 THE COURT: Yes, it is the way you do it. 7 Overruled. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q "You ever heard of the GO? 10 "Answer: Yes. 11 "Question: What was the GO? 12 "It was Guardian's Office. 13 "Question: And Mary Sue Hubbard was in charge of 14 that for a period of time? 15 "Answer: I have no knowledge of the Guardian's 16 Office. I was never associated or affiliated with it in any 17 way. 18 "Answer (sic): You do know that a number of 19 Guardian's Office people went to jail? 20 "Answer: I don't --" 21 Then there was objection. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Were you asked those questions and give those 24 answers? 25 A Yes, that is correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 745 1 Q And that was true or was that perjury, as well, 2 that you had no knowledge of the Guardian's Office? 3 A Well, that was true then and it is true now. 4 Prior to my association with going to Gilman Hot Springs, I 5 had -- you know -- you know, I had done protests at the 6 behest of the Guardian's Office where all Scientologists got 7 together, and I think did a demonstration of the courthouse 8 down there at a point in time on -- Hebert would -- what 9 they do is they have a thing in Scientology called a call to 10 arms -- 11 Q Really, all I asked you, was that true or not and 12 you said it was true that -- 13 A Okay. 14 Q Using your words, you had no percipient 15 knowledge -- 16 A Well, I don't want to play -- 17 Q Can I ask my question first? 18 A I told you that there was -- you know, was some 19 association with the Guardian Office, and I tried to clarify 20 that. So you know, I don't want to get into word games here 21 where you say, well, you said you never did it but suddenly 22 now you have me picketing at the behest of Scientology. I 23 mean, little activities like that, I mean, I popped out of a 24 coffin across the park doing a skit based on something 25 that -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 746 1 Q I understand, but you waxed eloquent about the GO 2 and how it's the same -- OSA was the same, and under oath 3 here you said you didn't know, didn't have information about 4 the GO. You didn't know anything about it. 5 A No, I think you are confused on that issue, 6 Mr. Weinberg. 7 Q Now, do you remember testifying in this proceeding 8 that -- that you were -- had responsibility for legal, 9 intelligence and PR activities of OSA? Do you remember 10 that? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Particularly intelligence activities of OSA, that 13 was your testimony? 14 THE COURT: Could you define or tell him -- I 15 don't remember, was it here in this hearing? 16 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I said. I was just 17 reading from his testimony. 18 THE COURT: Here? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q I'll read -- this is the dirty -- when I say 23 dirty, this is the -- 24 THE COURT: Dirty copy, I know. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 747 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q The dirty copy, but on my Page 71 of the dirty 3 copy, which is obviously not the actual transcript, what it 4 says is, "As I mentioned --" this is your answer -- "we used 5 to do the technology side of Scientology. Then there was a 6 separate area, areas that I also had responsibility for. 7 And those were legal, intelligence and PR activities of OSA 8 which is a separate network in Scientology." 9 That was your testimony, right? 10 A Yes. Yes. 11 Q Now, I want you to turn, if you will, Mr. Prince, 12 to Page 77, first, of your Yanny depo. 13 While you are looking for it, you were deputy 14 inspector general of RTC, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And it was deputy inspector general external was 17 your actual -- DIG external, right? 18 A Right. 19 Q Did you -- if you go to the bottom of the page, 20 Line 22, were you asked this question and did you give this 21 answer. 22 "Question: Back when you were the DIG external, 23 did you have any responsibility for intelligence? 24 "Answer: Not particularly. 25 "Question: Is there a group or subgroup within Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 748 1 Scientology organization referred to as Intel? 2 "Answer: No, not that I know of. 3 "Question: Has Intel ever been part of your job 4 description? 5 "Answer: No. 6 "Have you ever had any responsibility for Intel? 7 "Answer: No." 8 Were you asked those questions and did you give 9 those answers? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q And was that truthful testimony? 12 A Yes, it was. And you know, in -- inasmuch as 13 it -- that it was deceptive testimony because we've sat here 14 and we've gone over all of these Scientology issues, now 15 that says intelligence action, this, that and other thing, 16 but when the GO was gotten rid of, the section that was 17 called intelligence was no longer called intelligence; it 18 was called the information bureau. And I think if you look 19 at a current organization chart for the Office of Special 20 Affairs, you will find that it says information bureau. It 21 doesn't say intelligence bureau. But if you look at the 22 materials that the persons are trained on in the information 23 bureau, it is intelligence. 24 Q It is sort of like your testimony yesterday where 25 I asked you about the picket sign, you know, in front of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 749 1 Mr. Minton's house and you said you didn't own a sign? 2 A You know, I don't know about that, Mr. -- 3 Q Was that truthful but deceptive testimony, or is 4 that sort of like an example of what you're talking about? 5 A I don't know about that analogy, Mr. Weinberg. I 6 think you are confused on that issue and you are mixing 7 apples and oranges. But I pretty much answered your 8 question with this. 9 Q All right. So this is truthful but -- and so what 10 is -- by the way, just so -- it's not perjury when you tell 11 the truth but you are deceptive? In your mind, that is 12 okay? 13 A Well, you know, I'm -- 14 Q Just answer the question. 15 A I'm not going to draw a legal conclusions. You 16 are the trained lawyer here. I'm the trained Scientologist. 17 Q You are the trained witness. 18 A I can tell you about that. I can't tell you about 19 the lawyering so much. I can't explain the law to you. You 20 can explain that to me. 21 Q Explain to me how you are being truthful when you 22 are being deceptive? 23 A By the mere fact being deceptive, you are not 24 being totally honest. But then again, as I understand the 25 law, you are not obligated to answer but an exact question, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 750 1 and the exact question here was about intelligence and -- 2 and again, I'll tell you, when the GO was changed, the word 3 "intelligence" was gotten rid of and the word "information" 4 was put in there; information bureau, information 5 department. 6 So if they would have said information department, 7 I could have answered these questions a little differently. 8 But I didn't say, oh, you know, well, they changed 9 intelligence to information because no person wants a 10 witness walking in just blah-blah-blah, blah-blah-blah. 11 Answer the question you are asked and that is it, okay. 12 THE COURT: Sort of like you are doing now? 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q So why did you use the word "intelligence" when 16 you testified for Mr. Dandar? I just read you the 17 testimony. "In those areas that I was responsible for, 18 legal, intelligence and PR activities of OSA," why did you 19 use the word "intelligence"? 20 A Because I was able to take the eternal words of L. 21 Ron Hubbard that had that on there and show it. I used it 22 because that is what the issue says. 23 Q And by the way, that is acceptable to you to give 24 truthful but deceptive testimony? That is acceptable to you 25 as you sit here as a so-called expert in Scientology? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 751 1 A It is acceptable to me to answer -- answer the 2 question that is asked. 3 Q So I have got to ask the absolutely right question 4 or you can deceive me and there is no problem here? You can 5 deceive me and the Court? And everybody else that is -- 6 that is in this room? 7 A Mmm, well, you know, you can call it deception or 8 you can call it inadequate lawyering. I mean, I don't know. 9 What do you want to say about it? 10 Q Well, have you had any of those answers while you 11 have been on the stand, those truthful but deceptive 12 answers? Can you think of a couple where we just missed the 13 question a little bit? 14 A You know, Mr. Weinberg, I think I'm making a 15 valiant effort here to keep perspective and keep things in 16 perspective. And I think I have gone overboard in 17 explaining my rationale. 18 THE COURT: The question is, Mr. Prince, is 19 there any time in this hearing you have not told the 20 absolute whole truth, that is what the oath is, the 21 truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth? 22 THE WITNESS: No, there is not. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Now, you testified, I think -- correct me if I'm Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 752 1 wrong -- a number of times that -- that Mr. Miscavige was 2 deeply involved in the activities of you and Ms. Aznaran at 3 the RTC and that -- and that you and her reported to 4 Mr. Miscavige when you were there. Is that right? 5 A Mmm, partially right. I -- I don't -- don't 6 remember saying Miscavige was deeply involved with me and 7 Mrs. Aznaran in RTC. I don't remember -- 8 THE COURT: He did say he reported -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, but the other part, I -- 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Let's make it clear because that is actually the 12 question I wanted to ask you. You said -- you testified 13 under oath you reported to David Miscavige while you were 14 DIG external at RTC? 15 A I -- ultimately, I did report to him, yes. 16 THE COURT: Frankly, I think he said he 17 reported to Vicki Aznaran. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just asking him now -- 19 we'll, I'll read you what he said. 20 THE COURT: You have to read him what he says 21 because I can't even remember, myself. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q This is actually the real transcript, Page 342, 24 lines 19 through 25. And this is in response to a question 25 from Mr. Dandar. And you say: "Answer: So you know from Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 753 1 the --" 2 THE COURT: Read the question. 3 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm trying to find. 4 There was a lot of interruptions. 5 MR. DANDAR: Well, that is surprising! 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Mr. Prince just starts talking. There was -- 8 there was dialogue about the Clearwater Police Department. 9 THE COURT: Well, let me hear what it is you 10 are wanting to read to him, then we'll see if he can 11 remember this testimony. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Okay. 14 "Answer: So you know from the limited time that I 15 was there in Religious Technology Center myself, I know 16 that -- you know, there wasn't much about the Flag Service 17 Organization I didn't know about and also had 18 responsibilities for to make sure the whole thing ran 19 smoothly, and the person that I reported to was certainly 20 the -- ultimately was Mr. Miscavige." 21 That is what you said? 22 A Correct. That doesn't mean to the exclusion of 23 Mrs. Aznaran who was my direct -- 24 Q No, I didn't -- wasn't suggesting that. 25 A Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 754 1 Q Now, if you'll go to -- by the way, did you also 2 report to Marty Rathbun back then? 3 A Yes. Yes. 4 Q If you go to Page 52 of the Yanny deposition, 5 please -- 6 A Was that 52, Mr. Weinberg? 7 Q Yes, 52. 8 A Okay. 9 Q Look at Line 15 through 19. 10 "Question --" were you asked these questions and 11 gave these answers under oath. 12 "Question: Back in this '84, '86 time period did 13 you ever have an occasion to report to Marty Rathbun? 14 "Answer: No. 15 "Question: Did you ever report to David 16 Miscavige? 17 "Answer: No." 18 A Right. 19 Q Were you asked those questions, did you give those 20 answers? 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q Were those truthful answers? 23 A No, they were not. 24 Q So you perjured yourself? 25 A Correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 755 1 THE COURT: I honestly don't want you to use 2 the word "perjury." Perjury is a term of law. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Lie would be fine. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have had judges tell me 6 not to use lie because it is inflammatory. 7 THE COURT: If that were in front of a jury, 8 that may be true, but for me in this particular 9 proceeding perjury is a term of law. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 11 THE COURT: If you say is that a lie, that 12 would be fine. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q Was that a lie? 15 A Yes, it was. 16 Q And did somebody instruct you to lie? 17 A Yes. Again, Mr. Earle Cooley, Mr. Rathbun. 18 Again, I'm being a good Scientologist and I'm protecting 19 Scientology. 20 Q And you're not being a good anti-Scientologist as 21 you sit on the stand in this proceeding and write affidavits 22 and stuff like that, correct? 23 A I'm sorry, I didn't understand the question. 24 Q Well, is there a code of ethics for people like 25 you that are part of the anti-Scientology movement? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 756 1 MR. DANDAR: I'll object to the phrase 2 "Anti-Scientology movement." I don't know if that 3 has been established anywhere. 4 THE COURT: I think you need to save that for 5 another time. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Is there a code of ethics, did you and members of 9 the A team and those people that were carrying the signs for 10 the Lisa McPherson Trust that we saw that video yesterday, 11 was there some code of ethics as to what you guys were going 12 to do when you were under oath? 13 A Mr. Weinberg, no one carried a sign for the Lisa 14 McPherson Trust. You know, you make it impossible for me to 15 answer these questions when you draw these conclusions and 16 inferences that simply are just not true. 17 Q Well -- 18 THE COURT: So the question is, was there a 19 code of ethics that you and Mr. Minton and -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Ms. Brooks. 21 THE COURT: -- Ms. Brooks developed when you 22 were to testify? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 THE COURT: In this proceeding? 25 THE WITNESS: No. The answer to the question, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 757 1 your Honor, is no. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Now, you have testified again today about the RPF 4 and I believe that on direct -- and I'll read you your 5 testimony if you don't remember it, but I believe that you 6 have referred to the RPF as being a concentration camp or 7 something like that, correct? 8 THE COURT: Prison camp. 9 A Prison camp. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Actually, in this transcript it 11 says concentration camp on Page 456. 12 THE COURT: I heard prison camp for sure. 13 Prison, concentration camp, I guess they're all the 14 same. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, actually -- 16 THE COURT: They're not. 17 MR. WEINBERG: In my mind a concentration camp 18 brings images of Nazi Germany, and a prison camp, 19 you know, we have them in Florida. But -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Well, Japanese had concentration 21 camps in the United States. We had -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not even going there. 23 MR. DANDAR: There must be a difference. 24 THE COURT: Maybe not to this particular 25 witness. He may not -- not make a distinction. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 758 1 THE WITNESS: Well, actually, your Honor, I 2 think there is a distinction in that I think the 3 Rehabilitation Project Force is more akin to a 4 concentration camp in that part of the program is to 5 have not -- not only to have a mind-altering 6 experience, but to have a total revamping of the way 7 you were before. 8 THE COURT: Okay. So you refer to it as a 9 concentration camp? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q By the way, did you lose a lot of weight when you 13 were in the RPF? 14 A Which time? 15 Q I mean, did you get meals? 16 A Which time? 17 Q You said you were in twice, I believe. 18 A Right. So you mean both times? 19 THE COURT: Either time. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q Either time. 22 A The first time I lost weight dramatically. I 23 think I got down to 144 pounds because we weren't allowed to 24 eat regular food, we had to eat fruit and -- and protein 25 supplement called Progest. Then we had to run around with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 759 1 plastic suits on our body to, quote/unquote, get the 2 impurities out. This is all we were allowed to eat is fruit 3 and Progest. 4 Q That was in the '70s? 5 A That was '77. 6 Q So then in '87 when, you know, everything came 7 down on you and you got -- 8 A I lost weight there, too, yes. 9 Q Were you running around drinking protein drinks 10 and wearing sweat suits? 11 A No, not the second time. 12 Q Now, you testified that you were -- let me 13 quote -- "forcibly," quote/unquote, that is what you said 14 here, "removed from the RTC." That is what you said on the 15 stand. 16 A Yes. 17 Q Do you remember that? Now, when you said 18 forcibly, what -- what were you referring to? 19 A Well, I was referring to a couple of things. 20 Prior to assuming any position as a board member in the 21 Scientology conglomerate, the one thing that you're asked to 22 do in order to have this position is to sign an undated 23 resignation. 24 After signing an undated resignation, then you are 25 allowed to be a corporate officer, on the board of directors Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 760 1 or -- or some such like that, you know, having to do with 2 corporate matters. 3 So I was a -- on the board of directors of the 4 Religious Technology Center. I was the treasurer. But when 5 I was graced with that position I also at that time had to 6 sign an undated resignation. 7 Again, I was woken up at I guess 5 o'clock in the 8 morning with 12 people in -- security guards wearing 9 uniforms like they're on a mission, and I was told that I 10 was removed, I was shown my undated resignation so that, you 11 know -- and this is a legal process. And apparently this is 12 a problem that they had, but I won't diverge, but this and 13 this, and I was told, "You stand up, you call me sir." 14 Miscavige wanted me to do that, and I didn't want to do it. 15 So they grabbed me and they started jumping me. 16 Q All right. That is the gun thing? 17 A Right. 18 Q The gun thing? 19 A Right. We talked about that yesterday. 20 THE COURT: Are you also talking about the fact 21 your resignation was filled in, is that what you 22 considered part of forcible removal? Or not? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: So when you mentioned that, that is 25 also part of your forcibly removed because it was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 761 1 filled in and, therefore, you were removed? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Now, you understood when Scientology reorganized 5 in the early '80s and created RTC and CSI and a variety of 6 other corporations, you understood that there was a 7 corporate structure then that was very clear and defined in 8 corporate documents, correct? 9 A Before -- 10 Q You understood that? 11 A Before or after -- I guess -- there was a 12 corporate structure before they created RTC, CSI, all these 13 other corporations? 14 Q No, I said you understood in the early '80s, the 15 Church of Scientology reorganized with a new corporate 16 structure -- 17 A Right. 18 Q -- including the RTC, CSI, which was the mother 19 church, and all the churches under them. You understood 20 that, right? 21 A Yes. Yes. 22 Q And there was a very detailed corporate structure 23 with -- with articles of incorporation and various 24 agreements that set forth clearly the corporate way in which 25 various -- Scientology would be run, correct? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 762 1 A Correct. 2 Q And that was the wish and desire of L. Ron 3 Hubbard, who was still alive that that happened, that there 4 be this reorganization of the church? 5 A You know, I can't say that that is true. I 6 can't -- 7 THE COURT: Who would care? The idea there was 8 a corporate reorganization, surely this is going 9 somewhere. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It is going somewhere. 11 THE COURT: Get there. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q The RTC was composed of a board of directors. 14 Correct? 15 A That was part of it, sure. 16 Q And there were trustees? 17 A Correct. 18 Q In fact, there were trustees in every Scientology 19 corporation, correct? 20 A Well, I came to learn that in 1987. But you are 21 correct. 22 Q Well, you learned when you joined RTC that there 23 were trustees, there were three trustees? 24 A No. No. No. 25 Q Well, what you learned is that the trustees had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 763 1 one function, correct, and that is to -- that is to -- to 2 name or remove directors. You understood that, didn't you? 3 A No, sir. 4 Q And you were removed in 1987, along with 5 Ms. Aznaran, by the trustees of RTC, one of which was 6 Mr. Miscavige, correct? 7 A Incorrect. I was removed by one person, only one 8 person's will, on one person's authority, and that was 9 Mr. Miscavige. 10 Q Was he one of the trustees of RTC? 11 A Yes. And this got explained to me as he was doing 12 this. You know, he -- you know, and I guess I was a bit 13 naive, you know, I didn't know. I wasn't a corporate 14 person. I'm not trained, you know. 15 And he explained it to me very well. He said, 16 "Look, I am a trustee. Norman is a trustee." I think Marty 17 may have been a trustee or Steve Marlowe may have been a 18 trustee. I'm not sure. And he explained to me how it 19 worked. 20 And he said, "Here is your undated resignation and 21 you have officially resigned and this is how it works and we 22 have the authority to do that." And at that point I was 23 cognizant of how it worked. 24 Q Are you saying that for the five years that you 25 were in RTC and for the three or so that you were a board Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 764 1 member and, you said, the number two person at RTC, you 2 didn't know that there were trustees that had the ability 3 to -- to remove you? 4 A Correct. 5 Q But you are an expert on the corporate structure 6 of Scientology? 7 A I have never said I am an expert on the corporate 8 structure of Scientology, Mr. Weinberg. I said that I am an 9 expert in the -- in the policies, bulletins and issues that 10 are Scientology. That is Scientology. 11 Q If you go to Page 16 of your deposition -- 12 THE COURT: Which deposition? 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, the Yanny deposition. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q The -- 16 A I'm not quite there. 17 Q Okay. 18 A Okay. I'm there. 19 Q Okay, Line 4, question -- were you asked these 20 questions and did you give these answers -- and you will see 21 there is one date that is wrong, but it is wrong in the 22 transcript, and I think you -- it didn't affect the 23 question. 24 "Question -- Line 4 were you asked this question, 25 "October of '83 to March of '87 you were deputy inspector Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 765 1 general for external affairs. 2 "Answer: That's right. 3 "Question: Was Vicki Aznaran your senior during 4 that entire course of time? 5 "Answer: Yes. 6 "Question: Were you out at Gilman Hot Springs? 7 "Answer: Gilman Hot Springs and Los Angeles. 8 "Question: What was your next position then in 9 March of '83." That would be obviously March of '87, I 10 think you understand that by your answer. And did you give 11 this answer. 12 "Answer: Then I went to the RPF for three months, 13 probably three and a half. Then I was an auditor. I was an 14 auditor at Golden Era, the same place at Gilman Hot Springs, 15 for a while. 16 "Question: For about three and a half months 17 starting in March of '83 --" but it is '87 -- "you were in 18 the RPF again? 19 "Answer: Yes." 20 Then I'll skip to Page 17. Top of the page. Line 21 3 were you asked this question and gave this answer: "What 22 were the circumstances of your transferring from RTC to 23 Golden Era Productions? 24 "Answer: Well, when I was in RTC I wanted to go 25 to the RPF because I needed more training. I needed -- I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 766 1 just needed more skill than I presently had. And that 2 afforded me an opportunity to do that because I could go 3 five hours a day, so I did that and also got auditing, 4 co-audited and life audited, because I audited practically 5 my whole career in Scientology. So I decided to audit for a 6 while." 7 Do you see that? 8 A Yes, I do. 9 Q Were you asked those questions, did you give those 10 answers? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q So that was false testimony? 13 A This was coached testimony by Mr. Earle Cooley, 14 Mr. Rathbun, for the purpose of deposition with Mr. Yanny. 15 Q So is that a definite category -- 16 THE COURT: That was also false, correct? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: You were coached by who? 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Earle Cooley and Mr. Marty 20 Rathbun. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Now, that deposition -- you were asked questions 23 by whom in that deposition? 24 A You know, I don't know. I -- I don't know. 25 THE COURT: Take a look at the front. It Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 767 1 should say who was representing Mr. Yanny. Did you 2 give him the front page? 3 MR. WEINBERG: I gave him the whole deposition. 4 If I could approach, I think I could show him. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 A Cummings & White. Is that who it was? 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Barry VanSickle. Do you remember Barry VanSickle? 9 A Not really. 10 Q But do you remember this was a deposition, now 11 that we refreshed your recollection, the questions were 12 being asked by Mr. Yanny's lawyer, not by Mr. Cooley, the 13 ones we went over. 14 A Okay. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Just one second, your Honor. I 16 need to move some stuff and get some other stuff. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Now, going to a different subject now, Mr. Prince. 19 A Are we finished with this? 20 Q Yes, let me take that back. 21 THE COURT: Why don't you go ahead and give 22 that, then, to Mr. Dandar. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I will. 24 THE COURT: That will save you all from having 25 to copy it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 768 1 MR. WEINBERG: Is this our only copy? No, we 2 have other copies. 3 MR. DANDAR: You do have another copy? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Apparently, somewhere back at 5 the ranch. 6 THE COURT: But you can go ahead and make 7 yourselves a copy and he can have that one? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Right. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Now, let's go back to the LMT now. And I think 11 you said a minute ago that I had some misconception of the 12 LMT and picketing. Did I hear you say that? 13 A Mmm, that is quite possible, yes. 14 THE COURT: What he said, Counselor, was that 15 you were suggesting that they were picketing on 16 behalf of LMT, and that wasn't exactly correct. 17 THE WITNESS: That is right. That's right. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q But the -- part of the purpose -- part of what the 20 LMT did in 1999 and 2000 was to picket various buildings of 21 the Church of Scientology? 22 A You know, Mr. Weinberg, I hear you saying that. 23 But with every video that you have shown here and you have 24 related to the LMT, there are LMT staff that have never 25 picketed, never wanted to, never would, and would not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 769 1 participate -- 2 THE COURT: Mr. Prince, this is really simple. 3 Really the question is here, and I don't think it is 4 that difficult, one of the things that LMT did, 5 those folks who were at LMT, was to picket when they 6 thought it appropriate. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, occasionally they would. 8 THE COURT: Exercising their rights, whatever 9 you want to call it. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: They would at times organize a 12 picket and go picket the Church. 13 THE WITNESS: Correct. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Now, in January of 2000 you were the consultant, 16 expert, working with Ken Dandar in this case, right? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And you were also working in the Wollersheim case, 19 as well, at that time? 20 A Mmm, more than likely, yes. 21 Q And you were also vice-president at the LMT? 22 A Well, we already did LMT. You said I was at the 23 LMT. And I was working with Mr. Dandar. There are two 24 things. 25 Q I'm focusing on the time, January of -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 770 1 A Okay. 2 Q -- 2000, you were the expert for Mr. Dandar -- 3 A Yes, I was the expert for Mr. Dandar, but I don't 4 think that I immediately assumed work at the Lisa McPherson 5 Trust. I don't think that is how it happened. 6 Q Now, I asked you yesterday about you being the big 7 boss at the LMT? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you said no. 10 A Correct. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Could we play that video, 12 please. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q By the way, do you remember a situation where 15 Mr. Minton handed out parrots to various members at the LMT 16 as Christmas gifts so that -- indicating -- rather, whether 17 you are a big parrot or little parrot, squawking at 18 Scientology, do you remember that happening? 19 A I think you are referring to a newspaper -- a 20 press that Mr. Minton had -- had done and that came up -- 21 THE COURT: Did he give you all parrots? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: Little ones. 25 MR. WEINBERG: All right, could we play this? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 771 1 This is from the film library, January 5, 2000. 2 ______________________________________ 3 (WHEREUPON, the video was played.) 4 "I have a little presentation, a little sort of 5 Christmas present for the people who are associated 6 with the Lisa McPherson Trust who have made all this 7 possible. Some of you may be aware that back in 8 December a guy named Dave -- no, Rick Barry wrote an 9 article in the Tampa Tribune about -- I think the 10 headline was 'Bob Minton, will he rouse the 11 gorilla?' 12 "Yes. Yes. 13 "But the real headline is 'Lisa McPherson 14 Trust, will they rouse the gorilla.' And in that 15 article, he referred to -- in terms of the gorilla, 16 first of all, he was talking about how this gorilla 17 came to Clearwater 25 years ago, 800-pound gorilla, 18 set himself down in the middle of Clearwater, began 19 buying influence, began buying property, and for the 20 last 25 years they have basically made themselves a 21 force in this community by buying people off one at 22 a time. 23 "And the -- the question that Mr. Barry raised 24 in this article was whether, you know, this small 25 band of parrots would be able to, you know, make a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 772 1 difference here in terms of changing the way that 2 this -- that this organization is perceived in this 3 community and in terms of the way this organization 4 behaves in this community. 5 "Well, I remember a good friend of mine, Mark 6 DeLarma, who you all know, said, 'You thought that 7 was a good article? He, like, called you guys 8 parrots.' I said, 'I thought it was a great 9 article.' 10 "So did I. 11 "Because it really expressed in a very vivid 12 way how the Lisa McPherson Trust was going to change 13 the way this community interacts and perceives 14 Scientology. And how Scientology will have to -- if 15 they want to be healthful here, start acting like an 16 organization that is a church if they want to be 17 called a church. 18 "So I figured that the first thing that the 19 Lisa McPherson Trust had to do is we had to set up a 20 little -- Mmm -- mascot for this organization. And 21 everybody who is part of it. So for the first -- 22 the first group of -- of Christmas presents are for 23 those people who will be based here as part of the 24 organization day in and day out. 25 "And so the first of those goes -- goes to -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 773 1 this is my little parrot that we want to have, the 2 staff members of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and the 3 most famous staff member of all is -- is Stacy 4 Brooks. 5 "There you go. 6 "The president and chief operating -- executive 7 officer. 8 "The next one -- the next one, the same parrot, 9 you know, the same parrot, goes to Jesse Prince, the 10 boss of the whole thing. Who we all love. 11 "Thank you, Bobby. 12 "And the -- and the third -- the third of the 13 fifth parrots goes to Mark Bunker, the multimedia 14 king of the world. 15 "Sweet. 16 "Who is doing everything he can to keep a 17 straight face while this is going on. 18 "There is one for me. I want to keep that. 19 "And then when David gets here, this is for 20 David Cecere. And I have another parrot which is 21 not currently in waiting here, but that is for Kim 22 Baker when she arrives. 23 "So we've got plenty of parrots. 24 "We're not done. 25 "We're not done. You know -- you know, I mean, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 774 1 so I would like to make a recommendation that we 2 adopt this parrot as the mascot of the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust so that everybody knows that we are 4 going to make a lot of noise, we're going to be 5 squawking about what Scientology does in terms of 6 harming people and their abusive and deceptive 7 practices, and we're going to, as little parrots, 8 we're going to make a lot of noise and drop a lot of 9 stuff that parrots -- come out the back end and help 10 these guys learn the way to behave. Okay? 11 "So -- 12 "Bravo. 13 "So now -- now -- now we have little parrots. 14 We have little parrots for all of the big people who 15 have made all this possible. And the first and most 16 important little parrot goes to Patricia because -- 17 because what Patricia has done, to help everybody 18 who is down here, get themselves down here and get 19 them settled in and make them feel comfortable in 20 this -- in this whole environment, which is not an 21 easy place for -- for former Scientologists to come 22 to. You know, they have been willing to stick their 23 neck out and come down here and really make this 24 organization happen. And so Patricia has really 25 made everybody feel comfortable, she's -- she's sort Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 775 1 of like -- 2 "She chased PIs into the bathroom for me. 3 "Yes, and you -- you know -- so I -- I want 4 Patricia to have a parrot. 5 "Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much. 6 "Ray Emmons has been teaching us all for -- and 7 a lot of people didn't listen for a long time, how 8 this organization really operates. And he did this 9 in Clearwater. He made himself known nationwide in 10 terms of his opposition to Scientology. And the 11 type of organization that they really are underneath 12 the surface. And so I want Ray to know that he's a 13 parrot, as well. You have been a parrot for a long 14 time. 15 "Okay. 16 "Let me have a kiss here, Patricia, because I 17 didn't do that. Thank you so much. 18 "The order of the parrot. 19 "The order of the parrot. This is like the 20 highest award that the Lisa McPherson Trust can 21 bestow upon somebody. 22 "Now, you know, Peter Alexander has been 23 squawking about Scientology for a long time, even 24 when he was in it, especially toward the end of the 25 time he was in it, when he was -- when he was -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 776 1 when he was being squawked at by Patricia -- you 2 know, rather regularly. So -- and Peter has allowed 3 Patricia particularly to devote so much time and 4 energy into helping this organization get off the 5 ground. 6 "And I just want you to know, Peter, that we're 7 totally thankful for your help and support in this 8 organization, your being on the board. And I really 9 want all of us to know that this is an incredibly 10 tight-knit little group, and got a lot of hard work 11 to do here in Clearwater. But with people like all 12 of us here and you, Peter, thank you so much for 13 doing this. And I want to present you with a little 14 parrot. 15 "Yes. 16 "Thank you, sir. Thank you. 17 "And I want to -- I want to -- 18 "The order of the parrots. 19 "The order of the parrots. 20 "I want to talk to you about a theme park. 21 "Yeah. Yeah. 22 "Now, the next parrot -- the next parrot is for 23 Duncan Pierce, you know, our national coordinator. 24 Our national coordinator. 25 "Oh, my God. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 777 1 "Duncan has been abused by Stacy so much in the 2 last few months that he really deserves a big 3 parrot. But because he's not here on the staff in 4 the office every day, he can't get a big parrot, you 5 know, it's just not part -- 6 "The big parrot -- 7 "Look at Peter. 8 "It's -- you know, the problem is -- 9 "Patricia? Look at Patricia. 10 "The problem is it is not in the tech. He 11 can't have a big parrot. But -- 12 "The standard tech. 13 "Yeah. Yeah. But -- but Duncan has done so 14 much to get us off the ground, as well. 15 "I don't know what I would do without him. 16 "It is amazing. The thing is there are so many 17 people that have really pushed so hard to get this 18 thing going. And, you know, there is no recognition 19 for us. You know, we get abused a lot on the 20 Internet. Our demise has already been scripted by, 21 you know, anti-cult and Diane Richardson. Fine, let 22 them squawk all they want. But the real squawking 23 will be done here in Clearwater by a bunch of 24 parrots. And Duncan is one of those parrots. 25 (Inaudible.) Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 778 1 "Then for the -- and the person who lives the 2 furtherest from Clearwater, Grady Ward, who is 3 standing right here, we have another parrot, because 4 Mr. Ward -- Mr. Ward is -- is our security expert 5 here. And already -- and already during the course 6 of this day he has learned a lot about security. 7 (Inaudible.) 8 "Yeah, don't tell me about it. But I can tell 9 you some things about Grady personally because -- 10 (Inaudible.) 11 "Because one of the things that really got me 12 involved in this thing was Grady Ward. And Grady's 13 stand against Scientology, you know, back in 1995 14 or -- early '96 when he started going after them 15 directly after they sued him, he went after them as 16 his own attorney, you know. You know what they say 17 about guys who are their own attorney. 18 "It is perfectly true. 19 "And it is perfectly true. Grady will be the 20 first to tell you he had no expertise, no competence 21 whatsoever. But he -- he studied the law. He 22 studied what Scientology was doing. He -- he 23 learned so much about it. And has become a really 24 good legal man in terms of fighting Scientology. 25 And I -- you know, I -- I can't -- I can't imagine Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 779 1 somebody having the patience to understand and go 2 through and traveling back and forth from Arcadia, 3 California, eight hours to San Francisco in his car 4 and memorizing the Rules of Civil Procedure. You 5 know, while he's going back and forth. And I mean 6 memorizing so he knows every paragraph, every 7 subparagraph, whatever. And -- 8 (Inaudible.) 9 "You know, if you talk about a parrot, then 10 this guy is a parrot. And I want to give -- I want 11 to give this guy who is a shining example for many 12 people on the Internet in terms of standing up to 13 somebody who is trying to curtail free speech on the 14 Internet, I want Grady to have this parrot as a 15 symbol of our love for him and his contribution to 16 this whole battle. 17 "Thank you very much. 18 "Thank you, Grady. Thank you. 19 "And -- and now. 20 (Inaudible.) 21 "And now this other parrot, I forgot to tell 22 you. I told you this was mine. And this parrot is 23 mine because all of you gave me this parrot and I 24 really appreciate it. So -- 25 "Something about Rob and why he gets a parrot, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 780 1 because if it weren't for him, none of us would be 2 here. 3 "Absolutely. 4 "None of us. 5 "For sure. 6 "There is nothing else to say. 7 "Bob is the big parrot. 8 "Definitely. 9 "Oh, but this is not all. Oh, some of the best 10 stuff is -- some of the best is saved for last. 11 Well, what I would like everybody -- 12 "He's big with presents, you can see that. 13 "What I would like everybody to do, if you put 14 the parrots around in a little circle here, if you 15 put the parrots around in a little circle there. 16 (Inaudible.) 17 "Right, don't anybody forget -- don't anybody 18 forget -- don't anybody forget. But, you know what 19 the parrots are supposed to do, don't you? We're 20 going to get the gorilla. And I didn't want you to 21 think I forgot about that gorilla. So this gorilla 22 is going to sit right there. 23 "Whew. 24 "Don't dump on the gorilla. Come on. But -- 25 but that is what this is all about here. All of us Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 781 1 little parrots and some of us big parrots here, 2 we're going to be here and we're going to make sure 3 this gorilla behaves. 4 "We're going to educate this gorilla and -- 5 "We're going to put the -- we're going to put 6 the gorilla in the cage or the jungle, wherever it 7 belongs. 8 "We're going to turn this gorilla into a 9 parrot. 10 "Yeah, this gorilla is going to be cooperating 11 with us. 12 "In any case, everybody can take their parrot 13 back now. And I'll keep the gorilla, so when we 14 have it on the desk out there, it will be -- 15 "Yes, a constant reminder. 16 "Yes, as a constant reminder of what we need to 17 do." 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q Bring back memories, Mr. Prince? 20 A Very fond memories. I'm so sorry that that place 21 doesn't exist anymore. 22 MR. DANDAR: I'll object because we just went 23 through that long video and with the -- the question 24 was -- to Mr. Prince, "Mr. Prince, were you called 25 or did you call yourself a big boss at the LMT," and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 782 1 that is not what that video showed. Mr. Minton 2 called Mr. Prince a boss of the whole thing. So -- 3 so whatever Mr. Weinberg's question was was not 4 supported by the video. 5 THE COURT: Well, it certainly is a video that 6 he could play at some other time so he played it 7 now. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 9 THE COURT: But it is true, he was not called a 10 big boss -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: He was called the boss of the 12 whole thing. 13 THE COURT: But I think Mr. Minton made it 14 clear he was the big boss. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Now, Mr. Prince, I asked you a lot of questions 18 about what the Lisa McPherson Trust was about. That meeting 19 there was initially the start-up meeting of the Lisa 20 McPherson Trust, wasn't it? It is essentially right at the 21 beginning? 22 A I think so. You know, I think you are right about 23 that. 24 Q Right. And Mr. Minton made it very clear what it 25 was about, squawking about Scientology. That is what the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 783 1 Lisa McPherson Trust was about, wasn't it? 2 A No, sir. It was about making Scientology behave. 3 I think that was also part of this video. Just to behave. 4 Be decent. 5 Q Putting the gorilla in the cage? Was that what it 6 was about? 7 A Or in the jungle, wherever it belonged. 8 Q What does that mean, "or in the jungle, wherever 9 it belonged"? 10 A Well, it means everything has its place, 11 Mr. Weinberg. And there is hardly anything sinister about 12 what we just watched here. 13 Q "We're going to make a lot of noise," that means 14 you are going to disrupt the activities of the Church of 15 Scientology in Clearwater, right? 16 A No, Mr. Weinberg. That means that we're going to 17 expose the deceptive and abusive practices of Scientology 18 and help those who have been victimized by it. That is what 19 we were talking about there. 20 Q And at that time when you got the second parrot 21 for being the boss of the whole thing, you were supposedly 22 the full-time expert for Ken Dandar, correct? 23 A I was working for Mr. Dandar as his expert. I 24 wouldn't go as far as to say full-time. I mean, even you 25 brought up the fact I was working on the Wollersheim case, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 784 1 as well, simultaneously. 2 Q We'll get to the -- we'll get -- I'll ask you one 3 question. From June of '99 until May of 2000 you were 4 getting $5,000 a month from Dandar & Dandar? 5 A I think the record reflects that, Mr. Weinberg. 6 Q And this was in that period of time, wasn't it, 7 this parrot thing? 8 A I believe it was. 9 Q Now, you saw this meeting and you were at a number 10 of meetings with Mr. Minton, correct, over the years? You 11 have been with him a lot? 12 A Yes, I have been with him a lot. 13 Q And in this particular meeting and others that you 14 were in, Mr. Minton was pretty outspoken, outgoing, he would 15 take over, right? He would speak his piece? He was in 16 control? 17 A No. Mr. Minton is not that way. That is the 18 biggest myth. You know, Mr. Minton has exact things that he 19 likes to do and he does them. I mean, I learned a lot from 20 him myself. You know, I have never had millions upon 21 millions of dollars myself. I have never been able to help 22 people the way he has been able to help people. He has a 23 different agenda, a different track. Unfortunately, in some 24 instances he has a very short attention span. 25 And he never, in any instance, ever wants to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 785 1 the person that is the leader. I mean, he doesn't -- he 2 doesn't do that. You know, if you want to do it, great. If 3 what you want to do makes sense, great, he'll support you. 4 But he's not going to tell you how to do it. 5 Q So this was just an aberration? 6 A No, this was -- it was clear what this was. 7 Mr. Minton was showing his appreciation to persons like 8 Patricia Greenway, myself, Peter Alexander, Duncan Pierce, 9 for helping organize and make the people feel welcome at the 10 Lisa McPherson Trust and helping us be a social -- be a 11 social reform group, if nothing else, in order to ultimately 12 help Scientology. 13 Q By the way, did he look harassed? Did he look 14 like a man that was under some wave of harassment unknown to 15 mankind? 16 A Actually, he looked like a man giving a speech to 17 a group of people. 18 Q It looked like he was -- that was in the Lisa 19 McPherson Trust building, correct? 20 A Correct. 21 Q It looked like all of you, Ms. Greenway, you, 22 Mr. -- 23 THE COURT: What difference does that make they 24 were having fun at the LMT? When gifts were given 25 out? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 786 1 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I'll go on. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Let me ask you a question about Ray Emmons, the 4 guy that put the parrot on his head. 5 A I know Ray Emmons well. 6 Q Now, Mr. Emmons had been a Clearwater police 7 officer and had done an investigation of the Church of 8 Scientology in the '80s, is that right? 9 A Yes, I believe that is correct. 10 Q And Mr. Emmons has been and continues to be the 11 investigator for Ken Dandar in this case, you know that? 12 A I know that Mr. Dandar has used him to do service 13 of process or locate witnesses and things like that. 14 Q Now, what was Mr. Emmons' position at the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust? 16 A I don't think he had a position. He may have been 17 on the board of directors, which was huge and basically was 18 a friends list. But as far as an official position or 19 coming into that office on a daily basis to work or 20 accomplish a specific task, that was never anything that he 21 did. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I have a couple E-Mails -- or 23 postings I was going to put in, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. I want to take a break 25 here in five minutes, so if it will take more than Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 787 1 that, break now. If not, go ahead and do those and 2 we'll take a break. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I think we can do those in five 4 minutes. I mean, it is just identifying them. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. WEINBERG: These are actually E-Mails, I'm 7 told. I have trouble telling the difference. 8 THE COURT: Yes, I don't know the difference, 9 either. If they're up there on the screen and 10 people can read it, to me, it's an E-Mail. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay, your Honor, this is 223. 12 I didn't write the number on it. 13 THE COURT: Okay, I'll do it. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And this is 224. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q I'm going to hand you the originals. We'll put 18 them back when we're done. 19 A Okay. 20 Q All right. If you'll look at first, Mr. Prince, 21 223. 22 A 223? Which one is 223? 23 Q That is the -- 24 A Okay, I have it here. 25 Q That is the Jeff Jacobsen -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 788 1 THE COURT: It is the long one. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I'm really only referring to -- 4 I -- we just received these from the Lisa McPherson 5 Trust. I have attached the whole thing, your Honor, 6 but the only page that -- that -- this is part of 7 the E-Mails that were produced. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. WEINBERG: But really what I'm focusing on 10 is the first page. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Mr. Prince, you can look at it all, but I don't 13 know if the rest -- sometimes it comes off the computer 14 and -- 15 THE COURT: Who is this from? 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q If you look at this, Mr. Prince, this is from Jeff 18 Jacobsen to you and Mr. Bunker and Stacy Brooks. Who is 19 Karen Case? 20 A She used to be a person hired specifically to work 21 as public relations. 22 Q And this is dated August 2, 2000. Is that right? 23 A Well, you know, okay. 24 Q Do you see that? 25 A Yes. I do. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 789 1 Q And this is -- do you remember having meetings 2 about things that needed to be done at the Lisa McPherson 3 Trust? 4 MR. DANDAR: Well, Judge, I have to object. 5 This is not Mr. Prince's E-Mail so I don't know how 6 he can question him about some hearsay document 7 authored by somebody that is not here. 8 THE COURT: Well, I think he can state whether 9 or not this is accurate or not. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It is to him. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q You received this, right, Mr. Prince? 13 A I have no memory of this. 14 MR. DANDAR: Which one are you on? 15 MR. WEINBERG: He's copied on the E-Mail, it is 16 addressed to him. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't even know what this is. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q It is an E-Mail to you. 20 A Okay. 21 Q Among other people. All right? 22 A Okay. 23 Q What it says, "This is a list of things we talked 24 about, elaborated on by me." 25 Now, Mr. Jacobsen was also part of the Lisa Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 790 1 McPherson Trust, correct? 2 A Yes, he was. 3 Q In fact, in some of those videos yesterday you saw 4 Mr. Jacobsen in it with a camera himself? 5 A No, I did not see that yesterday, but -- 6 Q Oh. He did take -- he took videos from time to 7 time, didn't I? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Do you know why those videos haven't been turned 10 over, by the way, his, Mr. Jacobsen's? 11 A No, I do not. Were they asked for? 12 THE COURT: Don't ask him what he knows or 13 doesn't know about something like that. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'll ask it a different way. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q Do you know where the videos that he took are? 17 A No, I do not. 18 Q Were they kept at the Lisa McPherson Trust? 19 A I don't know what he did with his personal videos. 20 Q But, anyway, this -- this -- this E-Mail talks 21 about a list of things we talked about, 1, speeches, radio 22 talk shows. 2, picket. 3, press releases. 4, press 23 conferences. 5, help with investigations by EEOC, DEB. 6, 24 the library open for public use. 7, concert November 11. 25 8, newsletter. 9, attend city council meetings, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 791 1 participate. 10, put up a sign for the office outside. 11, 2 ads in local newspaper. 12, support group. 13, radiofree 3 Clearwater." 4 Now, that is 13 things that the Lisa McPherson 5 Trust, I assume, prioritized to do. Not one says anything 6 about counseling, does it? 7 A You know, I think you are mischaracterizing this 8 E-Mail to somehow reflect or -- or be a staple for the 9 activities of the Lisa McPherson Trust, and what this is is 10 just simply an E-Mail of Jeff writing. I have no 11 recollection of it whatsoever and I don't even remember what 12 it relates to at this point in time. 13 I mean, I literally have had thousands of E-Mails, 14 Mr. Weinberg. I'm not trying to be uncooperative, I'm 15 trying to cooperate in the spirit, but what you are asking 16 me has no perspective. You are tying this into the Lisa 17 McPherson Trust and it just doesn't make sense to me. 18 Q Well, does it make sense to you one of the 19 priorities of the Lisa McPherson Trust was pickets? Does 20 that make sense to you? 21 A No, not at all. 22 THE COURT: This is really -- in fairness, this 23 is a statement from somebody about some meeting and, 24 frankly, you don't have to persuade me that the Lisa 25 McPherson Trust picketed. I don't know why you just Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 792 1 keep badgering that home. I know what he's going to 2 say, you know what he's going to say. It is me that 3 is in charge of this hearing, and I'm persuaded, but 4 the point was not picketing, it was counseling, 5 wasn't on the list. 6 You know, that is unfair to suggest because 7 somebody writes a letter with things they talked 8 about on a given day of things that needed to be 9 done, you can hardly assume putting a sign outside 10 is a primary -- is something that needs to be done. 11 It doesn't say this is our purpose. I mean, fair is 12 fair, Counselor. And that is not fair to suggest 13 that those are the purposes of the LMT. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I move it into evidence, your 15 Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. It will be received. 17 It will be received, although it is only being 18 received for the fact that -- that we have a bunch 19 of E-mails. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 21 THE COURT: -- that I have let in. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Then 224 quickly is an E-Mail 23 that -- 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Is this a posting or E-Mail, 224, Mr. Prince? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 793 1 A I have no idea. 2 Q Well, this is something that you -- 3 A There is no "to". 4 THE COURT: It says it is from you. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, is this a note to myself? I 6 don't know what it is. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Do you recognize this as something that you did? 9 THE COURT: Who is Mark? I know there is a 10 Mark. 11 THE WITNESS: You know, there are lots of 12 Marks. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q I think it is pretty clear, the message at the 15 bottom is a Mark Bunker passage. Then -- 16 A The message at the bottom? Oh, I see what you are 17 saying. 18 Q Do you see? 19 A Okay. 20 Q And my question to you is, your advice was, "With 21 regard to the Lisa McPherson Trust, contact Ken Dandar." 22 That is what it says, correct? 23 A Absolutely not. 24 Q That is not what it says? 25 MR. DANDAR: I'll object. It doesn't say that, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 794 1 either. 2 A No. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Are you saying, "In the meantime, I recommend you 5 contact U.S. attorney Kennan G. Dandar," and give his E-Mail 6 address? 7 THE COURT: What is the date on that? 8 MR. WEINBERG: It is November 10, 1999. 9 THE COURT: Before the trust was formed? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Right -- well, the trust 11 actually had already been formed, remember, it was 12 incorporated and it was in the process of being set 13 up. 14 A You know, this is a partial thing here from Mark. 15 I can't tell if somebody wrote in and had a legal question 16 and I'm referring them to Ken Dandar, who is a lawyer that 17 could maybe answer a legal question for them, or whether or 18 not they need assistance or the service the trust has to 19 offer. I can't tell from this. I can't draw the inference 20 that somehow this means Ken Dandar is running the Lisa 21 McPherson Trust or anything like that. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I move it into evidence, your 23 Honor. 24 MR. DANDAR: I object. It is too partial to 25 make sense. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 795 1 THE COURT: I'm going to let it in for whatever 2 value it has, which is little, as to a lot of the 3 other E-Mails, because of the same problem. 4 MR. WEINBERG: So is this a good time to take a 5 break? 6 THE COURT: It is a good time to take a break. 7 We'll be in recess for 15 minutes. I show it is 25 8 till. That will be about ten till. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 10 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 10:35 to 10:55 a.m.) 11 _______________________________________ 12 THE COURT: Okay. I signed the order and I 13 mailed out the copies. But those of you who are 14 here, I'll give you yours. Mr. Dandar. Here is 15 Mr. Lirot's, too. I didn't realize he wasn't here. 16 Mr. Moxon, Mr. Lieberman, Mr. Fugate. Always trying 17 to save you all some stamp money. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Everything counts. 19 THE COURT: Every little bit counts. That is 20 right. 21 You may continue. 22 MR. DANDAR: I returned the envelopes to 23 opposing counsel. 24 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 25 MR. DANDAR: So they can save their stamps. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 796 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Now, Mr. Prince, you first learned about Bob 3 Minton after watching a television show Dateline in which he 4 appeared and Ms. Brooks appeared in June of '98? 5 A That is incorrect. 6 Q Did you watch a television show before you met 7 Mr. Minton where you learned about him? 8 A No, I did not. 9 Q How did you learn about Mr. Minton? 10 A Through Mrs. Brooks. 11 Q So she just reached out for you, you didn't reach 12 out for her? 13 A Well, Mr. Weinberg, I think I spoke on this before 14 but I'll speak on it again. 15 I was on vacation in Connecticut. I had been in 16 the cyber coffee cafe. I had gone on the Internet. Do you 17 remember that testimony, Mr. Weinberg? 18 THE COURT: It was rather elaborate. 19 A I left my phone number and she called me. 20 (Telephone interruption.) 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Did you ever see the Dateline -- 23 THE COURT: Don't be sorry to him. Be sorry to 24 me. It is my word that says no phone. 25 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I apologize for the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 797 1 distraction. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Did you ever see the television show The Crusader, 4 I think on NBC Dateline, where Mr. Minton was featured about 5 his crusade against Scientology? 6 A Mmm, more than likely, many months to possibly a 7 year after he had done that program, I'd seen it. But I 8 didn't see it when it ran on national television. 9 Q Well, you learned, shortly after your call from 10 Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton was a very wealthy person who 11 was handing out a lot of money to people that would work 12 against Scientology, correct? 13 A That is categorically false. 14 Q Ms. Brooks didn't tell you that Mr. Minton had 15 given her and Vaughn a lot of money, including the purchase 16 of a $250,000 home? 17 A At one point in time Mrs. Brooks did relay the 18 information that Mr. Minton had given her and her husband 19 some money and she explained the circumstances about that. 20 Q Did a relative tell you about the Dateline show 21 featuring -- 22 THE COURT: A relative of whom? 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q A relative of yours tell you about -- in or about 25 this time period before you met Mr. Minton -- did a relative Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 798 1 tell you about having seen this show where Mr. Minton was 2 featured or some friend or some family member? 3 A A cousin of mine, when I lived in -- I guess I 4 must have been still living in Minneapolis and we were in a 5 phone conversation. And she was telling me about a program 6 where she had seen -- she had seen concerning Scientology 7 and there was a man that was helping people or somehow got 8 involved in it. She didn't remember his name. She just 9 remembered -- and, you know, as it is with my family, if 10 they see something about Scientology on TV, they tell me 11 about it when I speak to them. 12 Q Was that before you communicated with Ms. Brooks? 13 A I believe it was. 14 Q So when you learned about Ms. Brooks, you already 15 knew about Mr. Minton? 16 A As I said, she didn't know Mr. Minton's name. All 17 she related was, "I saw a story on TV about Scientology and 18 the different things that they do. And there was a man that 19 was helping people that had been in Scientology before." 20 Q And did you research, prior to hearing from 21 Ms. Brooks, did you research to learn who this guy was and 22 what he was doing for people who had been in Scientology? 23 A No. I had not. 24 Q Now, when did you learn, after communicating with 25 Ms. Brooks, how wealthy Mr. Minton was? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 799 1 A When I spoke to him. 2 Q And how long after you talked to Ms. Brooks did 3 you talk to Mr. Minton? 4 A Mmm, maybe a month. Maybe two months. 5 Q So I was under the impression that on this trip -- 6 I guess I'm wrong -- this trip to Connecticut, that you went 7 from Connecticut right up to Mr. Minton's house after 8 talking to Ms. Brooks? 9 A No, that is incorrect, Mr. Weinberg. 10 Q So you went home after that? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And you stayed in touch -- 13 A Oh, no, no, I'm sorry, you know, because it is so 14 important to make sure the record is correct. From 15 Connecticut, I flew to Ohio and met with Mrs. Brooks and 16 Mr. Haney. 17 Q And was it at that time that you were given a new 18 car? 19 A No. No. It was not. And I was never given a new 20 car by anyone. 21 Q Somebody purchased it? Mr. Minton purchased a new 22 car for you or caused a new car to be purchased for you? 23 A No. That is incorrect. 24 Q Well, how did you get the $23,000 Rodeo vehicle? 25 A I never got a $23,000 Rodeo. I had use of a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 800 1 $23,000 Rodeo but that $23,000 Rodeo belonged to FACTNet, 2 and when I terminated my employment with them, that car 3 stayed with FACTNet. You understand? 4 Q Now, that was purchased where, the car? 5 A In -- 6 THE COURT: Where like what dealer? What city? 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q What city? What city? 9 A You know, I don't remember the name of the city. 10 Q But it was in Ohio, that area, either Minneapolis 11 or Ohio, correct? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And did -- 14 A Well, wait a minute. Let me not do this thing 15 because you accused me of this earlier. It was in 16 Minneapolis specifically. I know the specific answer. I'm 17 not going to play charades here with you. It was in a place 18 near Minneapolis, a city that was near Minneapolis, and I 19 don't specifically recall the name of the city. 20 Q And it was purchased new, is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you and who went to pick it up at the dealer? 23 A Mmm, a friend of mine -- Mmm -- took me -- drove 24 me to the dealership to pick it up. 25 Q And did you have a check with you? How was it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 801 1 paid for? 2 A No. I didn't have a check. 3 Q Ms. Brooks took care of paying for the car? Is 4 that what happened? 5 A No. Ms. Brooks did not -- well, you know, I don't 6 think so. But quite factually, I don't know who -- how that 7 part of it happened. 8 Q There just happened to be a new car waiting for 9 you at the dealership? 10 A No. They needed a vehicle for FACTNet. You know, 11 let me -- if you have patience with me, I'll tell you the -- 12 what happened there. 13 They needed a car in Boulder -- 14 Q Boulder, Colorado? 15 A Boulder, Colorado, which is where FACTNet was 16 located. I was going to FACTNet to assist in that 17 organization. The car was purchased. I moved everything 18 that I had in Minneapolis and moved to Boulder, Colorado. I 19 made that move to at least be safe or -- or to be around 20 some people that could offer some protection to me, because 21 after I'd contacted Mr. -- Mr. Minton, the private 22 investigators started, the threatening letters to sue me 23 from Scientology started. And I was alone in Minneapolis, 24 and it was like, "Okay, come here, we'll help you, we'll 25 protect you, we have lawyers," whatever. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 802 1 Q You were alone and bankrupt in Minneapolis, right? 2 A I had filed bankruptcy in 1997. I think the year 3 we're talking about now is 1998. 4 Q June of 1998. Bankruptcy in November of 1997, 5 right? Your next real job after bankruptcy was to be paid 6 by FACTNet and Mr. Minton, correct? 7 A That is completely false. 8 Q Now -- 9 A You want to know what my next job was or you just 10 want to leave it like that. 11 Q Tell me what your next job was. 12 A I was self-employed. I had an art business called 13 The Art Guy. I had a kiosk in the mall in downtown 14 Minneapolis. I was making my own money and I was actually 15 doing pretty good for myself. 16 Q But something encouraged you, prompted you, to 17 pick up and leave Minneapolis and move to Boulder, Colorado, 18 at which time you became associated with FACTNet and started 19 being a paid witness in various Scientology cases, correct? 20 A I think you have added a little bit of baggage on 21 that. But what actually occurred is I left Minneapolis with 22 my business intact. I had employees in Wisconsin and 23 employees in Minneapolis, and I left and went to Boulder, 24 Colorado. 25 Q Driving this car? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 803 1 A Correct. 2 Q And you drove this car for how long? How many 3 months did you drive this new car that somebody paid for 4 that you picked up new? 5 A Off and on, maybe about three months. 6 Q Now, after -- but before you moved to Boulder, you 7 went to New Hampshire to visit Mr. Minton? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you and who went to New Hampshire to visit 10 Mr. Minton? 11 A It was just myself. 12 Q And he flew you to New Hampshire? 13 A I -- I believe the way the scenario worked is 14 Mrs. Brooks arranged flight -- airfare, the flight, for me 15 to fly there, yes. 16 Q Much like she had arranged the car to be 17 purchased? 18 A I think we're mixing apples and oranges here 19 because I think I stated earlier in the testimony I'm not 20 quite sure who did that on behalf of FACTNet. That car was 21 purchased in FACTNet's name. It was never in Jesse Prince's 22 name, Bob Minton's name, Stacy Brooks's name. It was a 23 corporate car. That is the way it was purchased and that is 24 the way it was left. 25 Q And the person that was financing FACTNet at the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 804 1 time was Bob Minton? 2 A Mmm, no. 3 Q Did Mr. -- one last question about the car. Did 4 Mr. Haney provide the funds for the car, Brian Haney? 5 A Not that I'm aware of. But then again, I don't 6 know the details of it. I know that -- I think Mr. Haney 7 did have some association with FACTNet at the time. 8 Q And what were you seeing Mr. Haney in Ohio about 9 with Ms. Young? 10 A I mean, I had never known Mr. Haney. I didn't 11 know who he was. He just happened to be there. I was there 12 to visit with Stacy. 13 The visit with Stacy -- her and I have been 14 associated -- associated and friends through Scientology 15 since 1976. She was one of the very first persons that I 16 met when I joined the Sea Org. And we were just happy to 17 see each other. Her ex-husband, Vaughn Young, and I were 18 very good friends. You know, he was an executive and we 19 were friends, and it was -- and from leaving Scientology -- 20 because when you leave and you are ostracized, people 21 disconnect from you; you are a suppressive person, degraded 22 being, whatever, you don't have any friends anymore. But to 23 actually encounter someone from Scientology that you knew 24 before that will talk to you because you are not a 25 Scientology is a rare thing. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 805 1 Q Now, the Youngs left in 1989, correct? 2 A Yes, I assume that, yes. 3 Q You left in 1992? 4 A Yes. 5 Q But you didn't communicate with the Youngs until 6 Mr. Minton came on the scene in 1998, after you left 7 Scientology, correct? 8 A I think that is a mischaracterization of my 9 earlier testimony, Mr. Weinberg. Because I think the way I 10 testified, and again I'll go through the whole thing -- 11 Q No, just answer that question. 12 A But I wrote an E-mail from a cybercafe that said, 13 "If you know Vaughn Young or Stacy Brooks, please give them 14 my phone number." Mr. Minton was not part of the equation. 15 Q My question was you didn't have any communication 16 with Vaughn or Stacy Young after you left Scientology in 17 1992 until this cybercafe thing in 1998? 18 A Correct. 19 Q As far as you know, they didn't reach out for you 20 prior to that time, either, is that correct, as far as you 21 know? 22 A As far as I know. 23 Q Now, Stacy Young must have told you, when you were 24 in Ohio with her and Brian Haney, she must have told you 25 about the activities that she and Vaughn, her husband, had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 806 1 been involved in for the past four years concerning cases 2 involving Scientology. She told you about that, didn't she? 3 A In our first meeting? 4 Q When you -- 5 A Oh, when I went to Ohio? Are you talking about 6 the Ohio trip? 7 Q Yes. 8 A There may have been a brief mention of that, what 9 she was doing. But for sure the substance and the bulk of 10 our conversation was the fact that we were together, we were 11 alive, we actually made it out somewhat sane people and we 12 were just happy to see each other. 13 Q Did she tell you she and her husband had been 14 making a living off testifying and being experts in cases 15 against Scientology for the past three or four years? 16 A No, she did not. 17 Q Did she tell you you had a good opportunity to -- 18 to get in on the gravy train, so to speak? Did she tell you 19 that? 20 A I take offense to that characterization. But that 21 statement is categorically false. 22 Q Did she tell you that you had the opportunity to 23 make money by being -- by working with lawyers in cases 24 involving Scientology? Did she tell you that? 25 A No, she did not. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 807 1 Q So you didn't have any discussion about you 2 getting involved in any of these cases? 3 A At that point in time in Ohio, no, we did not. 4 Q There came a point in time where you did talk to 5 Stacy about that? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And when was that? 8 A Mmm, I'm not quite sure. It was maybe some months 9 later or -- I'm not quite sure. But I think while we were 10 talking she was telling me about FACTNet. She was telling 11 me about this organization which, in some respects, was 12 similar to the Lisa McPherson Trust which had as its 13 intention of providing information and doing what it can to 14 assist people or persons who felt they had been victimized 15 by Scientology. 16 And -- 17 THE COURT: Was FACTNet just Scientology or was 18 it cults in general? 19 THE WITNESS: Cults in general, you know, the 20 whole subject. Very broad. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q It was primarily Scientology, though, wasn't it? 23 A No. If you go on their website, you know, 24 Scientology has its place, but there are many other cults 25 that they have provided information, ex-members speaking Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 808 1 about it, you know. 2 Q Well, the staff members of FACTNet tended to be 3 people that were more interested in Scientology or had had 4 some involvement with Scientology as opposed to other 5 groups. Correct? 6 A No. That is actually false. There was one person 7 that was a staff -- that was a staff member in FACTNet, I 8 think her name was Justine. She was a Christian woman that 9 had never been in Scientology before. 10 Q You are telling me so you learned about how you 11 could make some money involving Scientology from Ms. Brooks. 12 So when did that happen? 13 A You know, I -- 14 THE COURT: Make some money involving 15 Scientology? That doesn't make sense. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Who was the first person that told you -- 18 suggested to you that you might be -- you might be a witness 19 and could be paid as a, quote, expert on Scientology? Who 20 told you that? 21 A No one told me that, Mr. Weinberg. 22 Q Who asked you to be involved in the first case 23 that you got involved in? 24 A Mr. Leipold. 25 Q He just reached out for you? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 809 1 A He was an associate of Mrs. Brooks. Mrs. Brooks 2 was explaining to me about FACTNet. And the whole subject 3 came about because we were talking about being in touch with 4 people that we had lost contact with, old friends that were 5 in Scientology. So she was introducing me, "Well, you know, 6 another person, you know, people from Los Angeles, hey, do 7 you know this one? He's out." And Andre Tabayoyon, I think 8 I spoke with him. We were just talking about the people 9 that we knew in Scientology that were no longer there that 10 were out, you know, getting on with their lives, doing what 11 they do. 12 Q What were you doing in Ohio with Mr. Haney and 13 Ms. Brooks? I mean, why Ohio? You live in Minneapolis. 14 She lived in Seattle. Why were you in Ohio? 15 A That is where she was when she called me. And I 16 was in Connecticut and she was in Ohio. 17 Q Is there something special in Ohio? 18 A I think that is where Mr. Haney lives. She was in 19 Columbus, Ohio. That is where Mr. Haney lives. 20 Q You went to New Hampshire. How did you get in 21 touch with Mr. Minton? Did you call him? He call you? 22 A I think I answered this before. This happened 23 through Mrs. Brooks. I met Mrs. Brooks, and then I had -- 24 you know, sometime after that I spoke to Mr. Minton on the 25 phone and maybe a month or two later actually went to visit Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 810 1 with him. 2 Q He flew you to New Hampshire -- 3 THE COURT: He said he didn't know who paid for 4 the ticket. We can assume it was Mr. Minton, 5 directly or indirectly. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Somebody arranged for you to fly to New Hampshire, 9 right? 10 A Stacy Brooks. 11 Q All right. But she wasn't at this weekend -- was 12 it a weekend? 13 A Actually a couple weeks. 14 Q You were at Mr. Minton's house for a couple weeks? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Who else was there other than you and Mr. Minton? 17 A His family would come occasionally. His wife. 18 His children. 19 Q And anybody -- I mean, other than his family, 20 anybody else? 21 A No. 22 Q What did you-all -- did you talk about Scientology 23 in those two weeks? 24 A Yes, we did. We talked about Scientology. We 25 talked about why -- why he became involved. What this was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 811 1 all about. He was very interested to know my involvement, 2 my history, compared to other people that he had talked to. 3 And again, this is all in reference to, hey, you know, these 4 ex-people, these people that used to be in and now they are 5 not in and now they're getting together and talking to each 6 other and it is okay to do that. 7 Q And did he give you some money, some expense money 8 at that point, either before the trip or during the visit or 9 after the trip? 10 A No. No. I don't think so. 11 Q Did he pay for your expenses to move from 12 Minneapolis to Denver? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And -- 15 MR. DANDAR: I object because we have got to 16 establish a time frame here. It sounds like it all 17 happened on the same day. 18 THE COURT: That is true. Whatever the time 19 frame is, I don't think it all happened on the same 20 day. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 A It didn't. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q It didn't. I'm not suggesting that. Do you 25 remember how much he gave you to move from Minneapolis to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 812 1 Denver? 2 A Mmm, $10,000. 3 Q In a check? Cash? I mean, how did you get the 4 money? 5 THE COURT: What difference does it make? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Probably not. 7 THE COURT: It doesn't make any difference. 8 MR. DANDAR: Right. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Where did you get the money? I mean, did this 11 happen in New Hampshire? Or did it happen after the trip to 12 New Hampshire that he gave you the $10,000? 13 A You know, I'm not sure because, you know, I made a 14 couple of trips to New Hampshire. So I'm not really sure 15 how that came about. But I'll do the best I can to explain 16 it to you, Mr. Weinberg. 17 I went there once, I stayed there for a couple of 18 weeks, came back to Minneapolis. The threats started. I 19 was starting to get letters from Elliot Abelson, Scientology 20 attorney in Chicago, letting me know I would be sued. I had 21 private investigators starting a noisy investigation in my 22 neighborhood. And I think I alerted Mr. Minton and 23 Mrs. Brooks, I said, "Look, I can't believe this whole thing 24 is starting all over again." You know -- you are right, I 25 did do the bankruptcy thing. I cut ties with Scientology Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 813 1 completely. I was done with it. I didn't want another 2 thing to do with it. You know, it is kind of like every 3 time you put your hand in the fire, you know you are going 4 to get burned. I was done. 5 Q You were done but then you decided to get involved 6 in cases against Scientology? 7 A Then I went to meet these people and my freedom of 8 association was trying to be inhibited from Scientology -- 9 by Scientology. They didn't want me to associate with these 10 people. There were no -- no criminal activity occurred, 11 nothing happened. I'm simply talking to people that used to 12 be in Scientology. 13 Q All I asked you, did you get the money from 14 Mr. Minton during your trips to New Hampshire or after. 15 That is all I asked, and if you don't remember just -- 16 A In one of the trips. 17 Q -- just tell me you don't know. 18 A In one of the trips, Mr. Weinberg, I did get the 19 money from him to move. 20 Q Now, did Mr. Minton tell you that he would, in 21 essence, take care of you thereafter to support you with 22 regard to your work involving Scientology? 23 A No, he did not. 24 Q But in reality, that is what happened for the next 25 four years, didn't it? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 814 1 A No, it is not. 2 Q Well, you began to get money from Mr. Minton after 3 this first $10,000, correct? I mean, from that point on for 4 the next four years you received money, directly or 5 indirectly, from Bob Minton on a monthly basis, didn't you? 6 A Mr. Weinberg, I received money from FACTNet when I 7 started working for FACTNet, when I moved from Minneapolis 8 to Boulder, Colorado. I started to receive some -- and very 9 little from FACTNet. The fact of the matter is that I was 10 able to live and do what I was doing because I had been -- I 11 had my own business, I had staff working for me in two 12 states. I was receiving regular moneys from profits that I 13 had made. And this was where the bulk of my money was 14 coming from. 15 Q So you had all these profits that you had 16 accumulated after the November bankruptcy between November 17 and June of '98? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Okay. Now, you got the $10,000 from Mr. Minton. 20 And how much money do you remember that you received from 21 FACTNet? 22 A Maybe a couple of thousand. You know, one month. 23 A thousand another. You know, it was kind of back and 24 forth. 25 Q And then you came -- then, shortly after this, you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 815 1 came to Florida in the fall of 1998 to begin work with 2 regard to the PC folders in this case. Correct? You flew 3 to Florida? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you spent how many days with Ms. Brooks 6 reviewing the PC folders of Lisa McPherson in the fall of 7 '98? 8 A You know, I'm not sure, but it was like many days, 9 maybe even more than a week. And it was something I came 10 back to, as well, and participated in getting the folders 11 copied. So this whole thing with the folders started in 12 December but it went through a period of time, a month's 13 period of time of going through those folders. 14 Q So at that point when you first came you were now 15 officially on board as an expert for Mr. Dandar in the Lisa 16 McPherson matter, correct? 17 A I -- I wouldn't say that. The reason why 18 Mr. Dandar wanted me to go through those folders is because 19 of my expertise in Scientology, my prior technical 20 experience, the many courses and certificates and 21 internships I had finished. 22 THE COURT: Were you his consultant, as well? 23 THE WITNESS: Not at that time. I just came 24 down to do the preclear folders. Mr. Dandar and I 25 did not have a relationship because we didn't know Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 816 1 each other. And through time -- and he could see my 2 competence in interpreting Scientology policies and 3 bulletins -- that I then became a consultant and 4 worked more closely with him on the case. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Well, at the time -- when you were reviewing these 7 folders it was in Mr. Dandar's office? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you had -- you met with Mr. Dandar at that 10 period of time? 11 A Yes. 12 Q I mean, you introduced yourself to him and all 13 that? 14 THE COURT: Well, Counsel, come on. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q Did you bill him for your time? 17 A No. 18 Q You just did this for free? 19 A Yes. And I had done it for free many times. I 20 mean, I have worked for Morrison & Foerster, and Feaster 21 from -- out of San Francisco in a legal case. I worked for 22 Mr. Leipold in a legal case. I worked for Mr. Dandar. I 23 mean, by that time I had been working with these different 24 attorney firms or at least they had been calling me to see 25 if I could assist them in these other legal cases. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 817 1 Q Well, who was paying you to be in Tampa, St. Pete, 2 wherever it was, that you were to work with Mr. Dandar and 3 Ms. Brooks with regard to this case in the fall of 1998 and 4 early 1999 when you were going through these PC folders? 5 A Again I'll say that my expenses to fly down to 6 Florida, I believe, was paid by Mr. Dandar. The money that 7 I used to exist for that period of time, I think we're 8 talking about maybe six months, for the most part -- for the 9 greater majority of it were residuals from the business I 10 operated in Minneapolis. 11 Q Well, didn't Mr. Minton give you checks in early 12 1999, $5,000, $6,000 a month? 13 A No. 14 Q He didn't do that? 15 A He may have did it a time or two but it wasn't 16 consistent. And FACTNet was a very small organization. It 17 sometimes just didn't have money. And my -- you know, and 18 this was kind of like a period of time like where how do you 19 fit in? So, you know, I would occasionally tell Mr. Minton, 20 "Hey, you know, these people don't have money. I can't live 21 on air here. Can you help out?" 22 Q Well, why Mr. Minton? Why not Mr. Dandar who you 23 were doing the work for? 24 A Because I was working on FACTNet now, you know. 25 We're mixing apples and oranges here. FACTNet was a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 818 1 corporation that Mr. Minton was on the board of directors 2 of. 3 Q Well, I thought -- correct me if I'm wrong, I 4 thought I heard you say that starting in the fall of 1998, 5 into 1999, you spent a number of days, weeks, whatever, 6 working on this case, the Lisa McPherson case? 7 A Well, hold on, hold on, hold on. I never even met 8 Mr. Dandar until 1999. So let's leave 19 -- 9 Q How can you say that? You just said you were in 10 his office in the fall of 1998 looking at the PC folders? 11 A Wait -- okay. Well, okay, I'm confused with the 12 dates. So -- 13 THE COURT: So what is the right date? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. I mean, was it 15 1998? 16 THE COURT: That is fine. I told you and I'll 17 tell you again and it is really a wonderful answer, 18 you know, 1997, '98, '99, there could be a lot of 19 these dates you simply don't know, and there is 20 nothing wrong with saying, "I'm not sure what the 21 date was. I don't know for sure." 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 23 A Mr. Weinberg, I don't know. I don't recall for 24 sure. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 819 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Now, when did you become the expert/consultant in 3 the Lisa McPherson case? 4 A I believe that I got a letter from Mr. Dandar 5 quite possibly in March of 1999 that memorialized the fact 6 that he wanted to hire me to be his consultant. We had had 7 a working relationship at that point because I helped him a 8 lot and I -- and -- 9 THE COURT: You know, I haven't heard a date 10 yet. When is the question? 11 A March of '99. I think that is when we formed an 12 agreement and decided on terms. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q All right. Prior to March of '99, in the months 15 prior to March of '99, you had done a lot of work assisting 16 Mr. Dandar with, for example, PC folders, correct? 17 A Correct. 18 Q So whether that started in November or December of 19 '98, it was sometime several months before March of '99 when 20 you signed on as the expert. Right? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And -- 23 A To the best of my recollection. 24 Q And prior to signing on as the expert, can you 25 tell us how much time you had spent down here helping out Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 820 1 Mr. Dandar before you signed on as the expert? 2 A I'm sorry, I can't tell you how much time it was. 3 Q Okay. Now, once you signed on with Mr. Dandar, 4 then was it established that you were on a monthly salary? 5 A Mmm, I think the letter that memorializes that 6 agreement, I was on a monthly retainer of $5,000 a month and 7 my billable hours which I believe was either $100 or $150 an 8 hour. 9 Q If you exceeded the $5,000? Or is it in addition 10 to the $5,000? 11 A The $5,000 retainer, and the hours against that, 12 plus any other hours if I put in more hours or whatever. 13 Q But you didn't keep your hours, we established -- 14 remember we established that in front of Judge Moody that 15 you didn't keep your hours. Right? 16 A Well, no, in the beginning I didn't. And again, 17 Mr. Weinberg, there was nothing to keep prior to that 18 because I had just literally done the work for free. 19 Q Well, we have asked for your hours as part of the 20 various discovery, and it came up in the Judge Moody hearing 21 when you testified in front of Judge Moody and your 22 testimony was, I believe, that either you didn't keep them 23 or you didn't have them. 24 A Right. I didn't have accurate records. I didn't 25 have any notes to turn over or -- no. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 821 1 Q So what you got paid by Mr. Dandar was $5,000 a 2 month because you didn't keep the time in order to get 3 anything in addition to that. Correct? 4 A Well, you see, we're mixing apples and oranges 5 here again now. Because I think, you know, you talk about 6 that time period from 1998 to -- 7 THE COURT: I'm -- he's talking about the time 8 period from March of '99 when you were placed on a 9 $5,000-a-month retainer, was it $100 or $150 an hour 10 again that -- which was it? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure, I think it may have 12 been $150, actually. 13 THE COURT: Let's assume it was $150 an hour. 14 Basically how that works, if you go over, whatever 15 $150 into $5,000 is, then you get more, but if you 16 get less, you still keep the five. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Was that the deal? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: So you didn't keep records, 21 apparently? 22 THE WITNESS: No. 23 THE COURT: You were paid $5,000 a month? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: For whatever -- for however many Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 822 1 hours you worked? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q We'll show you the checks, but that continued up 5 until -- your recollection is that continued to a particular 6 point in time, I believe the records will show, May of 2000 7 when you left Mr. Dandar's payroll and went on LMT's 8 payroll. Correct? 9 A My reference point for that, Mr. Weinberg, is that 10 we had finished the depositions of all of the Scientology 11 persons that needed to be deposed. And Mr. Dandar was going 12 to go on to -- 13 THE COURT: Well, is that correct? Is that the 14 date? I mean, all he wants to know -- 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q All I want to know -- 17 A I don't know if that is the right date. I'm 18 saying my reference is this -- 19 Q At some point, and we'll show you the checks, I'm 20 representing to you I think the last Dandar check is May of 21 '99 -- or May of 2000. At some point in time you quit 22 getting Dandar & Dandar checks and you started getting LMT 23 checks? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And LMT continued to pay you at $5,000 a month? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 823 1 A Correct. 2 Q The same $5,000 -- the same amount. And you 3 negotiated that rate with Mr. Minton? 4 A And Mrs. Brooks. 5 Q Now, and then the LMT at some point -- you 6 testified about either yesterday or the day before -- closed 7 down, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q And whenever that was, your recollection it was 10 sometime in August or September of 2001. Right? 11 THE COURT: When was the date? When was the 12 date? 13 MR. WEINBERG: That I don't know exactly. I 14 mean, it depends on -- I mean, I'm really asking 15 Mr. Prince. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q I believe that you, Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks said 18 it was sometime in the August/September of 2001 time period, 19 is that correct? 20 A Mr. Weinberg, my recollection is I think it ceased 21 to exist as a corporation -- I think there was something 22 that Stacy wrote. But again as I testified to yesterday, 23 there was that period of time when Judge Beach still had to 24 come into the trust in order to go through all of the 25 offices, the library, looking for discovery, so in effect it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 824 1 was kind of forced to stay open longer after that. 2 Q Well, we'll show you the checks. But the records 3 from LMT -- 4 THE COURT: If you have got the checks, 5 wouldn't it make a lot more sense to show him, then 6 I wouldn't have to listen to this? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I will. 8 THE COURT: What you said yesterday was even 9 after it closed down there was a period of time when 10 you were working and you got paid for that, too, is 11 that right? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Whatever the checks show, the 14 checks show. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q And then at some point you quit getting LMT 17 checks, right? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And -- but Mr. Minton continued to pay you. 20 Right? 21 A No. That is incorrect. Mrs. Brooks did. 22 Q You knew that Mrs. Brooks was getting the money 23 from Mr. Minton. Right? 24 A Well, you know -- come on. 25 Q Come on yeah? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 825 1 A Do I need to assume that for you to make a point? 2 The answer to the question is I was being paid by 3 Mrs. Brooks. Her name is on the check. It is to me. That 4 is it. 5 Q All right. And that was at $5,000 a month, as 6 well? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And who did you negotiate that deal with? 9 A Mrs. Brooks. 10 Q And did you talk to Mr. Minton about it? 11 A No. I specifically talked to Mrs. Brooks about it 12 because she wanted everyone to take a cut in pay. And, 13 again, this constant figure of $5,000 is something that we 14 had discussed many years earlier. 15 Q "We" being? 16 A Mrs. Brooks, Mr. Minton. This is what I need to 17 be able to live. 18 Q So -- 19 A This is comparable to what I was making before I 20 came and started doing this. I -- 21 Q I'm sorry, before you ever signed on with 22 Mr. Dandar, you had already discussed with Mr. Minton and 23 Ms. Brooks that you needed $5,000 a month to live, correct? 24 A Correct. 25 Q And is that what you're getting paid at FACTNet, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 826 1 as well? 2 A No. 3 Q Now, when you started getting these checks -- they 4 were checks, right, from Ms. Brooks, you were still living 5 in Clearwater. Right? Or -- or Florida? 6 A I'm still living here. Yes. 7 Q And you're living in a house that Mr. Minton gave 8 you a $50,000 downpayment on. Correct? 9 A That was part of the downpayment that I had to 10 make. My total downpayment for that house was $70,000. 11 Q How much of that $70,000 did Mr. Minton give you? 12 A $50,000. 13 Q And when was that? When did he give you the 14 $50,000? 15 A You know, I guess it was sometime in February. 16 And, you know -- 17 THE COURT: If you have the check, show it to 18 him. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have the check, I don't 20 think. 21 A Well, you know, we've said -- 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q Well, could you just tell me when you bought your 24 house? 25 THE COURT: If he doesn't know, he doesn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 827 1 know. If you don't know, say you don't know. 2 A I know when I bought the house. I think the 21st 3 or 22nd of February of 2000. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q And at that point in February of 2000, you were 6 getting Dandar & Dandar monthly checks as his consultant. 7 Right? 8 A Correct. 9 Q All right. And how did it come about Mr. Minton 10 gave you $50,000 of the $70,000 that you needed for the 11 downpayment? 12 A You want to hear this? 13 Q You asked him for it? 14 THE COURT: Go on ahead. You asked. He can 15 tell it. Go on and rattle off however long this 16 story is going to take. 17 A Prior to moving down to Clearwater, we had 18 discussed -- had many discussions about, well, where to put 19 the Lisa McPherson Trust. We were kicking around this idea 20 of the LMT, where is it going to go? Should it be in D.C., 21 should it be in Boston, in the Los Angeles area. Bob said 22 Clearwater. 23 We discussed this, David Cecere, myself, I think 24 Mrs. Brooks, Mr. Minton and there -- there quite possibly 25 could have been someone else there -- I don't remember -- of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 828 1 where to put this thing. 2 And Mr. Minton really wanted to put it in 3 Clearwater. He felt that it was important that it happen in 4 Clearwater. Which meant that everyone that was going to 5 work there would be displaced from where they were currently 6 living to move here. 7 Mr. Minton offered to pay the moving expenses for 8 all concerned and to help all concerned establish residence 9 in Clearwater. 10 Q So he paid your moving expenses which -- 11 A Correct. 12 Q -- included a $50,000 downpayment? 13 A No, sir. That is what was discussed in -- in New 14 Hampshire, you know, before we moved here. Ultimately, 15 Mr. Minton gave me the $50,000 loan to purchase that house, 16 but I paid for my own moving expenses and I paid -- I mean, 17 the whole deal cost about $80,000 for me to relocate. 18 Because I had a place in Memphis. And by this time I'm kind 19 of living with -- in Chicago. By this time I'm kind of 20 living with my fiancee in Memphis, Tennessee, as well. So 21 when I moved down to Clearwater I had to move from two 22 cities; I had to move from Chicago, I had to move from 23 Memphis, Tennessee, to Clearwater. 24 Q Mr. Minton paid some other things for you. He 25 paid your attorney fees in the criminal case down here, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 829 1 didn't he? 2 A I believe the Lisa McPherson Trust paid those. 3 Q Well, did you -- did you discuss with Mr. Minton 4 that you needed funds to pay an attorney when you got 5 charged down here? 6 A No. 7 Q So who did you discuss that with so that the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust paid for your attorney fees? 9 A I wanted to hire a fellow named Rob Love to defend 10 me in that action. Mrs. Brooks insisted that Mr. DeVlaming 11 would handle my case and it would be taken care of by the 12 Lisa McPherson Trust as a job hazard. 13 Q As a job hazard? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. And that was around $60,000 or $70,000? 16 A The bill that I saw -- I think it was about 17 $45,000 that I saw. 18 Q Do you think it was more than that or you don't 19 know? 20 A I think it could have been more. 21 Q Now, how long -- so how would you get these checks 22 from Ms. Brooks after the Lisa McPherson Trust closed down? 23 A She would mail them to me from Atlanta. 24 Q The last check you got was on or about April 4 of 25 2002? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 830 1 A Correct. 2 Q And did you have a discussion -- all these 3 discussions that you had with Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton that 4 you have testified about this year, in any of those 5 discussions did you discuss with them your need for them to 6 continue paying you? 7 A Mmm, no, I haven't had a discussion about that. I 8 mean, we -- I think I brought up earlier, in September there 9 was a renegotiation of -- Stacy wanted people to take pay 10 cuts or whatever. And -- 11 Q But you didn't take one? 12 A Correct. 13 Q I was talking about April. In that -- do you 14 remember you said you had all these conversations, that you 15 referred to them in your affidavit, with Mr. Brooks -- with 16 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton -- 17 A Oh, okay. 18 Q In those conversations did you raise the fact that 19 you needed more money, you needed money, you wanted money? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. 22 A I did not. 23 Q Now, you said that you began as the paid 24 expert/consultant in the Lisa McPherson case in March of -- 25 of 1999. Correct? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 831 1 A Yes. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Now, let me have the reporter -- 3 the clerk -- 4 A To the best of my recollection. 5 MR. WEINBERG: -- mark as a 3-page exhibit, if 6 we can do that, your Honor -- 7 THE COURT: Sure. 8 MR. WEINBERG: -- some checks. 9 This will be 225. 10 THE COURT: All right. Do I have the right 11 order, the way you handed it to me? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. WEINBERG: It is possible, however, that I 15 screwed that up, but -- 16 THE COURT: It is all right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: But the order should be 18 February, March and May. That is what I'm hoping. 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q This is 225, Mr. Prince. 22 A Okay. 23 Q And you recognize the first page of 225 to be a 24 February 2nd of 1999 check from Bob Minton for $6,500 to 25 you? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 832 1 A Yes, I do. 2 Q Do you recognize the second page to be a March -- 3 appears to be March 18, 1999 check to you for $5,000, do you 4 see that? 5 A Yes, I do. 6 Q From Mr. Minton again? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And the third check to be a May 4, 1999 check for 9 $5,000 from Mr. Minton? 10 A Correct. 11 Q Now, this was -- these checks had to do with the 12 agreement that you had already worked out with Mr. Minton 13 and Ms. Brooks about you getting at least $5,000 a month? 14 A Correct. 15 Q But you were getting this on top of what you were 16 getting from Mr. Dandar? 17 A No. 18 Q Okay. You think you started getting from 19 Mr. Dandar a little bit later? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, what was this $5,000 a month for? I mean, 22 one was $6,500. Do you know why it was $6,500? 23 A Do you know, I don't know. I was looking at that. 24 That is an anomaly. That must have been money left over 25 from another month. Because as I said, there was a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 833 1 stretch -- period of time after I met -- certainly from 1998 2 until I guess this first check here that I was just simply 3 not paid at all. 4 Q But this -- you are not getting paid for FACTNet 5 work, you are getting paid for Lisa McPherson work prior to 6 signing on with -- 7 A No. 8 Q -- Ken Dandar? 9 A No. 10 Q Well, what is this work? What is this -- 11 A I'm in FACTNet when this is happening. 12 Q Why was FACTNet paying you? 13 A Well, I think I mentioned earlier that sometimes 14 FACTNet just didn't have money and I would call Mr. Minton. 15 I can't just be down here. 16 Q Now, when -- 17 THE COURT: Weren't you making $3,500 a month 18 at FACTNet? Or am I thinking of something else? 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you may be right 20 about that because we did have -- have some 21 agreement, I think I reached some agreement with 22 them to do that. And, you know, at that time I 23 still had my other business. I still had other 24 employees. I would often make trips, you know. So 25 that could have been the case. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 834 1 But the fact of the matter is the organization 2 didn't have the money. 3 THE COURT: I'm trying to think of why -- I 4 have no idea why it was $6,500 either unless 5 perhaps -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think it might have been some 7 expenses or something. 8 THE COURT: Or perhaps he was getting $3,500 9 from FACTNet. He was supposed to start getting 10 $5,000 from whatever, and I didn't get -- the 11 difference from $3,500 to $5,000 would be $6,500. 12 That would be rational but -- 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q In any event, Mr. Minton knew you had been doing 15 this work in Clearwater for Mr. Dandar with regard to the PC 16 folders? He knew that? 17 A I assume he did. 18 Q I mean, you were in -- once you had spent that 19 however long you said it was, I forgot now, a couple weeks 20 at his house, you communicated with him regularly after 21 that, didn't you? 22 A Up until this very occurrence, yes. 23 THE COURT: What is "this very occurrence"? 24 This -- 25 THE WITNESS: That is occurring here. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 835 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Now I'm going to mark as our 3 next exhibit, your Honor -- 4 THE CLERK: 226. 5 MR. WEINBERG: -- 226, this is 226 -- 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Now, Mr. Prince, 226 is a response that was filed 9 by Mr. Dandar on April 6, 2001. And attached -- and the 10 response shows that it has checks attached, but if you'll 11 look at the summary on Page 2, it identifies a 6/30/99 12 check, an 8/20/99 check, a 9/15/99 -- 13 A Excuse me, I'm not following you at all. 14 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach a second? 15 THE COURT: You don't need to read them all 16 into evidence. Just put it into evidence. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted him to look at it. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q You see those? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Attached is those checks. So either look at the 22 attachment or summary there. 23 Is it your recollection that is the sum and 24 substance of what Dandar & Dandar paid you while you were on 25 the -- you know, being working as a consultant/expert? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 836 1 A I believe this is correct with the possible 2 exception of recent activity. 3 Q Right. No, I'm talking about prior to 2002. 4 A Okay. 5 Q And that the first check was on or about June 30, 6 1999. Do you see that? 7 A Yes, I do. 8 Q And the last check was on or about May 24, 2000. 9 A Yes. 10 Q And it's your recollection that after you received 11 the last check, that is when you started getting paid at the 12 same rate by Lisa McPherson Trust? 13 A Correct. 14 Q You see for the most part these checks are $5,000 15 a month? 16 A Correct. I think I can explain what this other 17 one is for, $1,772. 18 Q What? 19 A I mean all of $5,000 with the exception of the 20 $1,772 -- 21 Q Is that some expense check? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust actually 24 withheld from your check. Right? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 837 1 Q In other words, you -- your salary was $5,000 a 2 month but your take-home was whatever -- 3 A About 35. 4 Q So I'm going to show you a series of those checks, 5 as well. 6 A Okay. 7 Q You were on a 1099 for Mr. Dandar, in other words, 8 he didn't withhold from your checks, right? 9 A Correct. 10 THE COURT: You were considered an independent 11 contractor when you worked for him, is that right? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 THE CLERK: 227. 15 MR. WEINBERG: This is 227, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q This is 227. 19 A Okay. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'll mark as 228 this document. 21 And all this is is the payroll records of Mr. Prince 22 which show that the salary was $5,000, it shows what 23 the withholding was. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. WEINBERG: That is 228. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 838 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. WEINBERG: These were produced by the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust. 4 THE COURT: These weren't additional moneys. 5 MR. WEINBERG: No, it just shows what the 6 salary was, 228, and they withheld -- 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q If you look at the checks, Mr. Prince, they are 9 $3,552, starting in June of -- of 2000, do you see that? 10 A Mmm, yes, I do. 11 Q And it is June, July, August, September, October, 12 November, December -- 13 THE COURT: Counselor -- Counselor, just can 14 you go from the beginning to the end? 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q It begins in June -- end of June of 2000 and 17 ends -- one is out of place -- ends -- 18 THE COURT: June '01. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q June/01, except if you look at the other exhibit, 21 Mr. Prince -- if I could just approach, your Honor -- the 22 payroll records indicate that you would have received -- you 23 would have received a -- one last payment on August 1, 2001 24 of $5,000 salary with all of the withholding. 25 Do you see that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 839 1 A I'm trying to follow. 2 Q It is the last page. Right there (indicating). 3 August 1 -- 4 A Oh, yeah. Okay. 5 Q All right? So that was probably the close-out 6 payment or something? 7 A That was the last check. Yeah. 8 THE COURT: Counselor, from LMT again? 9 MR. WEINBERG: These are the LMT records, this 10 is what they produced. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q So it appears you were paid a salary as an 13 employee from June of 2000 until August of 2001 at $5,000 a 14 month. Correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And after August 1 of 2001, you continued to get 17 your $5,000 a month but it was from Ms. Brooks? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Now, did Ms. Brooks withhold from -- I mean -- 20 THE COURT: What could she withhold from? I 21 mean, she was not paying him out of a business; she 22 was giving him money. 23 MR. WEINBERG: It's a good question. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q Did -- what were you considered at that point when Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 840 1 you were getting this $5,000 a month from Ms. Brooks? 2 A What was I considered? Stranded in Clearwater. 3 All of the other staff had moved. 4 THE COURT: Was this a friend giving -- giving 5 you living money until you could get some other job? 6 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Was there some understanding how long that was 9 going on? 10 A No. 11 Q Was -- had there been discussions it was going to 12 end? 13 A No. 14 Q Now, you have a monthly mortgage, obviously, 15 because you haven't sold this house yet, right? 16 A Correct. 17 Q Who paid you in May of 2002? 18 A It's not here? 19 Q May of 2002. The last check from Ms. Brooks you 20 said was April 4, 2002. 21 A Correct. 22 Q You said for years you needed $5,000 a month to 23 live. 24 A Correct. 25 Q So my question is who paid -- where did you get Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 841 1 your money to live in May of 2002? 2 A I think from the State of Florida. 3 Q What do you mean? 4 A I filed for unemployment. 5 Q Well, how did you do that? 6 THE COURT: Because he was unemployed. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q But you'd been unemployed since August of 2001. 9 A Yeah. 10 Q Or did you tell them that you had been employed 11 since August of 2001 and just lost your job when you had 12 this argument or disagreement with Mr. Minton and 13 Ms. Brooks? 14 A Mr. Weinberg, it is actually quite a simple 15 process. You go online, you tell them you are employed -- 16 unemployed, you put it in there, and they send you a check. 17 You check in. You have to look for employment. I mean, 18 that is what I know about. 19 Q And who did you say your last employer was? 20 A Lisa McPherson Trust. 21 Q And what did you say the circumstances were that 22 you had lost your job? 23 A Mmm, I -- I think -- I think maybe the place was 24 bankrupt, went out of business, closed shop. Something like 25 that, you know. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 842 1 Q Is there some application you have to fill out? 2 A Online, yes. 3 Q And is there -- so it is all online, it is with 4 the State of Florida? 5 A Yes, it is with the State of Florida online, yes. 6 Q And so since May of 2002, you have been on 7 unemployment? 8 A Since late May of -- yeah. Late May of 2002. 9 Yes. 10 Q So you are still on unemployment? 11 A No. 12 Q Well, when did that end? 13 A Well, when I worked out a new agreement with 14 Mr. Dandar and came to appear as an expert and give 15 testimony here, he gave me a check which I think he said he 16 would send here, and at that point when you receive money -- 17 when you are employed and you are actually receiving money, 18 whether it is self-employed or otherwise, that terminates 19 unemployment. 20 So that check effectively terminated my 21 unemployment. 22 Q And so you notified the authorities of that? 23 A Yes. And I haven't received another check since. 24 Q How many checks did you get -- where do you get 25 it, from the State of Florida, is that where you get the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 843 1 checks? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And how many checks did you get for unemployment? 4 A Mmm, well, they do it -- I think I was getting 5 like $293 a week or something like that. Then they would 6 double them up so the checks were like $494, I would get two 7 of those -- 8 THE COURT: Were you getting weekly checks? 9 THE WITNESS: No, I had it every other week. 10 So I got $494 -- I believe I received -- 11 THE COURT: Do you know? 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: Then why don't you say that? 14 THE WITNESS: Sorry. I don't know. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q When did you get the first money from -- when did 17 you sign up with Mr. Dandar to be an expert again? What 18 date? 19 A I don't know. 20 Q Well, that can't be long ago, so what is your 21 best -- 22 A Well, I don't know the date. I don't know. 23 Q What were the circumstances of you becoming an 24 expert again? 25 A Mmm, you know, again, this whole thing was over. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 844 1 People were going home. It was over. Your client took 2 Mrs. Brooks and Mr. Minton as trophies and we are sitting 3 here today and this brought me into this position here again 4 today. So, you know, those are kinds of the circumstances. 5 THE COURT: Are you back as a consultant or 6 expert or combination of the two? 7 THE WITNESS: I have been a combination of the 8 two with him. 9 THE COURT: And what time did that start, 10 about? Was it like -- 11 THE WITNESS: Maybe a week ago, two weeks ago 12 or however. 13 THE COURT: So between May of 2002 up until 14 that time you were collecting unemployment? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q And is there some agreement you executed with 18 Mr. Dandar a week or two weeks ago? 19 A Yeah, that I participate in the case, I would 20 help -- 21 Q No, is there some written agreement? 22 A Oh, no. 23 Q And the day that it started is when you got the 24 check. Is that when you became the expert, when you got the 25 check? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 845 1 A You know, I'm not -- I'm not sure because -- 2 THE COURT: As opposed to they talked, then 3 they got a check -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to date it. It is 5 not that long ago. I'm trying to date it. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q I mean, when it happened, did you -- I mean, did 8 this essentially happen simultaneously that somehow it was 9 established that you were going to be the expert again and 10 you negotiated what you needed? 11 A There was no -- I'll try to explain it as best as 12 I can, Mr. Weinberg. 13 THE COURT: I don't care. I don't want to hear 14 it, I'm not interested. I'm just not interested. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q Could I ask the amount then? What is the 17 agreement? Are you getting paid on monthly basis? Salary? 18 A We have no agreement like that. I just -- you 19 know, I will put in X amount of time, I'll get through this 20 hearing -- 21 THE COURT: Are you going to bill him per hour, 22 or what? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q And how much have you received from Mr. Dandar? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 846 1 A $4,000. 2 Q Is that just a retainer? 3 A Yes. 4 THE COURT: Are you keeping records now? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am. 6 THE COURT: What is your hourly fee? 7 THE WITNESS: 150. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I think this would be -- I have 10 a few other questions. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Did anybody else, between the time that Ms. Brooks 13 quit giving you money and the time that Mr. Dandar did give 14 you money, did anybody else give you whatever you want to 15 call it, expense money, living money, expert money, money? 16 A No. 17 THE COURT: Between the time Ms. Brooks -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: -- quit giving him the money in 19 April of 2002 of this year and whenever it was 20 Mr. Dandar gave this check. 21 THE COURT: Other than his unemployment? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Other than his unemployment. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q Did anybody else give you money? 25 A The answer is no. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 847 1 MR. WEINBERG: I think that -- you know, I'm 2 sort of at the end of this section. If you want me 3 to start another section I will, or we can -- 4 THE COURT: Yes, I would like to go until about 5 12:15, if you don't mind. 6 MR. WEINBERG: No. 7 THE COURT: Because we kind of got a late 8 break. 9 MR. WEINBERG: No, I really don't mind. 10 THE COURT: Gee, I thought you were about to 11 say you were done. 12 MR. DANDAR: I thought so, too. 13 THE COURT: I was real excited. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Or I could put it a different 15 way. Maybe I could have some time to collect my 16 thoughts. No, I'm not done. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q Now, you have been asked before about -- 20 THE COURT: Could I ask one question? I'm 21 sorry. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. 23 THE COURT: What is the number of the response 24 from Mr. Dandar? Can somebody give me a number on 25 that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 848 1 MR. DANDAR: 226. 2 THE COURT: Thank you. I forgot to mark it. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Which means that the -- that the 4 LMT -- 5 THE COURT: I have everything else marked. I 6 just didn't have that marked. 7 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q You have been asked before and testified about 10 going to Key West. Do you remember that? 11 A I don't remember testifying about that. 12 Q Well, did you go to Key West? 13 A Yes. But I don't remember testifying about it. 14 MR. DANDAR: It is outside of the scope of 15 direct. 16 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what he's going 17 to ask about it, but it is probably doubtful it is 18 outside of the scope of direct but -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: It is. It is. 20 THE COURT: Go ahead. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q And you were in Key West for what purpose? 23 A Vacation. 24 Q For a fishing trip is what you previously 25 testified to. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 849 1 A Yes, okay. And, you know, I don't want to do 2 this -- if I have testimony, could you please just show it 3 to me and ask me about it? 4 THE COURT: That is a fair question. I mean -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me ask a few questions 6 and then I will show it to you because we do have -- 7 actually we'll show you the video. 8 THE COURT: If he wants to see it, you show it 9 to him now. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is it. He can look 11 at it. 12 THE COURT: Then put it up then. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I need to ask him one 14 question before. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: One series. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q In Key West, it didn't have anything to do about 19 Scientology or this case or cases against Scientology, is 20 that right? 21 A Mmm, you know, we were there for a fishing trip. 22 I was there with Mr. Haverty, Mr. Haney, Mr. Ford Greene, 23 Mr. Dan Leipold, Mr. Dandar; Mr. Garko came out there. We 24 all have a common interest, and it would be crazy for me to 25 say that the subject of our work didn't come up and was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 850 1 discussed or whatever at some -- you know, during the 2 fishing trip. 3 So the -- that is the best way I can answer that 4 question. 5 THE COURT: So the answer is yes, you all 6 discussed the case? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Well, let me play your testimony and then I'll ask 11 you about it. 12 THE COURT: What testimony? This is on direct? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No, it's in his deposition under 14 oath in this case on November 17 -- 15 THE COURT: See, you misled -- I think 16 Mr. Prince and I both thought you were talking about 17 on direct examination which is what Mr. Dandar said 18 was outside the scope. 19 MR. WEINBERG: No, in this case about Key West. 20 THE COURT: But it was in his deposition? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Okay. When you say testimony in 23 this case, I'm going to assume you're talking about 24 direct. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 851 1 THE COURT: So if it is something else, you 2 need to identify it for him and for me. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 4 MR. DANDAR: What page number is this going to 5 be? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Right here. This is a 7 transcript of where this comes from. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: May I have a transcript, too? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure. 11 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 12 ______________________________________ 13 (WHEREUPON, the video was played.) 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Did you go to Key West? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Who sent you to Key West? 18 A No one sent. I went. 19 Q Who paid for the trip? 20 A I paid for the majority of it while I was there, 21 but it wasn't -- really not much to pay for. I paid to be 22 on a boat to go out fishing. I paid -- 23 Q Who -- well, who gave you the money? 24 A I used my own money. 25 Q Well, where did that money come from? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 852 1 A Money that I earned from working. 2 Q For FACTNet and Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold? 3 A I think we've covered this earlier. You know, I 4 have a -- you know -- different businesses, as well as 5 expert, and, you know, the money that I used for that 6 particular trip came from money derived from income from 7 work that I've done. 8 Q Including FACTNet, Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold, 9 right? 10 A I'm not sure why you're bringing up FACTNet. I 11 thought we -- 12 Q Is that right? 13 A No, that is wrong. 14 Q Well, when was the trip to Key West? 15 A Well, six weeks ago now. 16 Q And who was on the trip? What people were on the 17 trip? 18 A Oh, you know, I really don't want to discuss that 19 because I was on a complete pleasure trip. It had nothing 20 do with McPherson, or Wollersheim. Nothing. It had to do 21 with fishing and having a good time. Okay? 22 Q Now -- 23 A And I explained to you earlier that I am very 24 reticent to bring up the names of people that I'm involved 25 with that is activity outside of Scientology because of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 853 1 behavior of your client. How many times do we have to keep 2 going over this? 3 Q Were you on the trip with Mr. Dandar? Or are you 4 embarrassed about bringing his name up? Were you on the 5 trip with Mr. Dandar? 6 A No, Mr. Dandar was not -- 7 Q Answer yes or no? 8 A -- on the trip. No. 9 Q Was Mr. Leipold on the trip? 10 A Mr. Leipold -- Leipold was there, Mr. Weiner 11 (sic). He was there. 12 Q Was Mr. Minton on the trip? 13 A No. 14 Q Ms. Young on the trip? 15 A No. 16 Q Vaughn Young on the trip? 17 A No. 18 Q Mr. Jacobsen on the trip? 19 A Who is Mr. Jacobsen? 20 Q You don't know Mr. Jacobsen? 21 A No. 22 Q That is fine. Mr. Ward on the trip? 23 A No. No. 24 Q Did you talk about Lisa McPherson on the trip? 25 A Very little. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 854 1 Q So Mr. Leipold went from California to Key West to 2 just fish -- 3 A Yes. 4 Q -- with Jesse Prince? 5 A Yes. We went deep-sea fishing. We went 40 miles 6 off the coast, caught fish like this. Had a ball. 7 Q And there was no planning session with regard to 8 litigation. Is that correct? 9 A No. 10 Q Was Mr. Haney on the trip? 11 A Yes. And his son. And he learned to fish. 12 Excuse me. Now that we don't have a question 13 pending I would like to take a break. My leg is going to 14 sleep. 15 Q We just broke ten minutes ago? 16 A Well, okay, I'm sorry, my leg is going to sleep. 17 I'll take a two-minute break. Is that okay, Mr. Weiner 18 (sic)? 19 Q Okay, take a break. 20 ____________________________________ 21 Q Now, I asked you if Mr. Dandar was in Key West 22 with you. And you said no. You said no repeatedly. Is 23 that correct? 24 A I don't -- if I did say no, I'm very sorry. He 25 was not part of the trip. He came and appeared one day, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 855 1 said, "Hi," we had dinner and he left. 2 Q When you were outside did they -- did they -- 3 Ms. Young remind you that you had made yet another mistake 4 under oath? Did they tell you that? 5 A How could Ms. Young said -- say that when I gave 6 you testimony that she wasn't there? 7 Q Well, who told you that then? Who told you -- who 8 corrected your -- your false testimony that Mr. Dandar 9 wasn't there? 10 A I never gave false testimony. You asked me if 11 Dandar was part of the trip that I went fishing. I said no. 12 Q And you were absolutely insistent that Mr. Dandar 13 wasn't there and yet he was in Key West? 14 A And came and had dinner and left. One time. 15 Q Flew down to Key West to have dinner and left. 16 MR. DANDAR: Objection, asked and answered and 17 don't answer it again. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Did he stay in a hotel down there? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q What do you mean, you don't know? 23 A That means that I don't have personal knowledge of 24 it. 25 Q And you understand what personal knowledge is, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 856 1 right? 2 A Oh, come on, please. 3 Q No, do you understand it, personal knowledge? 4 A I do not know if he was staying in a hotel there. 5 I was in a different place. I don't know where he was. 6 Q How many -- how long did you spend with him in Key 7 West on that trip this summer? 8 A A dinner. Maybe 15, 20 minutes. Outside of 9 dinner -- 10 Q Dinner is usually at night, right? 11 A Correct. 12 Q Did you see him the next morning? 13 A No. 14 Q Now, was Mike Garko down there? 15 A Yes, he was. Dr. Garko was there. 16 Q Was Thom Haverty down there? 17 A Yes. He was. 18 Q So that is like the whole consulting team for the 19 McPherson case? 20 A Mr. Garko was with Mr. Dandar. 21 Q So he just flew in for dinner? 22 A Came in and left. 23 Q Didn't have anything to do with the Lisa McPherson 24 case? 25 A No. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 857 1 Q Who paid for your trip? 2 A As I gave testimony to earlier, I paid my own 3 expenses to -- Mmm -- take the boat out. I went out on a 4 boat several times. I paid about 50, 60 bucks a time. I 5 bought beer, wine, food, cigarettes. 6 (End of playing of the video tape.) 7 ______________________________________ 8 THE COURT: Counselor, is it -- is it important 9 that -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: We are demonstrating -- 11 THE COURT: Right now we have testimony coming 12 out, I paid for my trip. 13 MR. WEINBERG: We are playing it in context. 14 THE COURT: No, it is not. I see about a 15 jillion pages. You are on Page 259 and I see it 16 going straight through to Page 267. That is a lot 17 of pages. And I see that you're -- there is a lot 18 of consistent testimony here. 19 MR. WEINBERG: But, your Honor, when we play 20 this, I think you'll see that there is a lot of 21 inconsistent statements. 22 THE COURT: Yes, you already played it. I'm 23 saying why do I have to listen to the consistent 24 testimony from a deposition, it is improper. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, because -- because -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 858 1 there has been a lot of argument, accusations in 2 here about taking things out of context so we left 3 it in context is what we did. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 If you have any more like this, you -- you cut 6 and paste. You can give it all to me, go to where 7 you want to go, but I don't want to hear it -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 9 THE COURT: I have better things to do than 10 listen to this man's testimony two times when it is 11 exactly the same both times. Now, there is 12 differences and I'm interested in hearing the 13 differences. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And it is different from the 15 other sworn testimony before -- 16 THE COURT: And I'm interested in hearing that. 17 I'm not interested in hearing that which is not 18 inconsistent. Do I make myself clear? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 20 THE COURT: It is improper. All right. 21 MR. WEINBERG: We could play it on rebuttal 22 case, and we thought it would be appropriate to play 23 it here with Mr. Prince on the stand and get his 24 explanation for the inconsistencies between this 25 and -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 859 1 THE COURT: I have no problem with your playing 2 inconsistencies. 3 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 4 THE COURT: That is called impeachment. I do 5 have a problem with having to listen to Mr. Prince's 6 testimony on the stand and then listen to identical 7 testimony in a deposition. Cut and paste it. You 8 can give me the whole deposition, so if I want to 9 read it in between, I can. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I apologize. Just play the 11 rest -- no, are we done? 12 That is fine. 13 THE COURT: I mean, there is more here and 14 there may be more inconsistencies and I want you to 15 play that -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: I understand, and we don't have 17 it set up and I'll go back and look at it at the 18 break. 19 THE COURT: Let me look and I can see what you 20 have underlined and that is probably the important 21 part. I see I have two pages here not underlined. 22 MR. WEINBERG: The only stuff being played is 23 the underlined stuff. 24 THE COURT: That is not true, Counsel, it is 25 not true. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 860 1 MR. DANDAR: And I don't have anything 2 underlined. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then -- then I should have 4 followed the transcript. 5 THE COURT: Page 259, this is about the time I 6 interrupted you, "Who paid for your trip down there? 7 "As I gave testimony to you earlier, I paid my 8 own expenses. I went out on a boat several 9 times --" 10 MR. WEINBERG: Wait a minute. I thought -- 11 point made. I really thought when I was -- that I 12 had this -- only the stuff that was yellowed. 13 THE COURT: No. 14 MR. WEINBERG: That is why it was yellowed. 15 THE COURT: If there is something else in here 16 you want to impeach, that is perfectly fine, you can 17 catch it during lunch. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'll catch it during lunch. I 19 think I pretty much made my point. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q Now, in Mr. Dandar's testimony in this proceeding 22 on May 3, 2002 -- 23 A Not this? 24 Q No, it is not this. 25 A Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 861 1 Q On Page 90 -- this is in his direct testimony when 2 it first started at the beginning -- I could hand this up. 3 THE COURT: If you are going to try to impeach 4 this witness from Mr. Dandar's testimony -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm going to ask him a 6 question about it. 7 THE COURT: You don't need to show him 8 Mr. Dandar's testimony or ask him about it. You 9 can't do it. If their testimony differs, it 10 differs. You can bring it up, inconsistencies in 11 their testimony, but you can't show him Mr. Dandar's 12 testimony and say, "Is that true?" 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q I take it that you did not spend hours and hours 15 talking about Scientology strategy, the Lisa McPherson case 16 and the other Scientology cases with Mr. Dandar or anyone 17 else at the Key West meeting. Is that correct? 18 A That is correct. My recollection, I didn't spend 19 hours speaking to anyone about this. I mean, you know, 20 there were a point in time when the attorneys were meeting, 21 you know. And again, I don't profess to be an attorney, I 22 don't try to be an attorney. I was there on a fishing trip, 23 you know. Mr. Leipold has certain experience in dealing 24 with Scientology. Mr. Ford Greene has certain experience 25 with dealing with Scientology because of the cases he has Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 862 1 done. They had discussed with Mr. Dandar about that. This 2 had nothing to do with me. 3 Q Well, you said Mr. Dandar in your testimony was 4 only there for dinner one night for a few hours with 5 Dr. Garko and flew back and there was no discussion about -- 6 about the case. That is what you said? 7 A You know -- 8 Q Under oath. Correct? 9 A This is getting ridiculous, Mr. Weinberg. I mean, 10 he flew in for dinner. He flew in. He brought in 11 Mr. Garko. He had his own personal pilot. They were flying 12 a little personal plane. They came, you know, while it was 13 still light outside, you know, "Hi." Thom Haverty's wife is 14 there and Captain Wayne's wife is there, the boat. This is 15 a social setting. 16 Q All right, so -- 17 A There is nothing sinister about it. 18 Q So Mr. Dandar was not there for two or three or 19 four days with Dr. Garko, was he? 20 A Not to my recollection. No. 21 Q Did you fly back to Tampa with Mr. Dandar? 22 A No, I did not. 23 Q And did you talk, on the trip in Key West -- which 24 you remember it was in August of 1999? 25 A I'll take your word for it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 863 1 Q And do you remember that on August 20th of 1999 is 2 when you wrote that David Miscavige affidavit that was used 3 about him ordering the death of -- letting -- ordering or 4 allowing her or causing her to die? Do you remember that? 5 A You got me all screwed up on the dates now. Could 6 you just tell me again? 7 Q The testimony in this case is that the Key West 8 trip was around August 8, 9, 10, 11 of 1999. Or 12th of 9 1999. 10 A Whose testimony is that now? 11 Q Mr. Dandar's testimony, Dr. Garko's testimony, 12 Mr. Haney's testimony. That is the testimony. 13 A Okay. 14 Q All right? You executed an affidavit -- the 15 affidavit in this case, part of what this hearing is about, 16 on August 20 of 1998? 17 THE COURT: We are talking about that is the 18 date he signed it? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is the date he signed 20 it. 21 THE COURT: You are not going to suggest to 22 this witness that whole affidavit was written on the 23 date it was -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't going to ask that. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 864 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Just ten or fifteen days later you executed this 3 affidavit, right? 4 A Correct. 5 Q Now, did you participate in any conversations in 6 Key West with anyone, whether it is Ford Greene, lawyer on 7 Scientology cases, or Dandar Leipold, or Ken Dandar, or 8 Dr. Garko or Thom Haverty, part of the -- part of the Lisa 9 McPherson team, did you have conversations with anybody down 10 there about any of the assertions in this what became the 11 August 20th affidavit? 12 A Not that I recall. 13 Q Did you have any discussions down there with 14 anyone about adding David Miscavige as a strategy to the 15 Lisa McPherson case? 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q As far as you know, was anybody down there talking 18 about the strategy of adding David Miscavige to the Lisa 19 McPherson case? 20 A Not that I know of. 21 Q And was it -- 22 A Or not that I recall or have memory of. 23 Q But you did leave Key West and go directly to 24 Tampa, correct, after that trip that you call a fishing 25 trip? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 865 1 A I believe that -- that that is correct. 2 Q And as soon as you got to Tampa, you started 3 work -- you must have started working on this affidavit. 4 Right? 5 A I think that affidavit was a work in progress by 6 the time I got to Tampa already. If you notice -- I mean, 7 that thing is pretty detailed. I have references. I have 8 studied. You know, it takes me time to do these affidavits. 9 I just don't sit and imagine it. I have my calendar, I have 10 my notes or whatever and I sit and I do these things. 11 Q But the first check you got from Mr. Dandar was 12 June 30, 1999. Correct? 13 A If that is what you just showed me, I'll take your 14 word for it. Okay. 15 Q So as you look back, as you think back, do you 16 recall whether you were working on this affidavit before you 17 went to Key West? 18 A I'm pretty sure that was a work in progress. 19 Q So you had already had discussions with people 20 about adding Mr. Miscavige to the case? 21 A I don't know. I don't recall it so I'm going to 22 say I don't know. 23 THE COURT: The only thing I'm going to allow 24 you to inquire about -- remember we had this little 25 business about the work product -- is the meeting Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 866 1 which is at issue in this case, the meeting, whether 2 Minton was there and whether Minton influenced that. 3 Whether this man, as a consultant, paid or 4 otherwise, had a conversation about adding David 5 Miscavige is what I would have expected him to add. 6 Nothing sinister about that. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Nothing said it was sinister, 8 except Mr. Dandar already asked Dr. Garko about 9 meetings, Mr. Haney about meetings, Ms. Brooks about 10 meetings, so -- 11 THE COURT: Meetings? What meetings? The only 12 person that I know of that was asked about the Key 13 West meetings was you-all. Maybe he brought it 14 up -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: He brought it up on May 3rd. 16 You didn't let me cross-examine him. Mr. Dandar is 17 the one that brought up the Key West meeting, said 18 that is where he -- 19 THE COURT: Well, do you think I think all 20 those people sat down there and didn't talk about 21 this case? 22 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't. 23 THE COURT: I don't care what they said. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just -- 25 THE COURT: I mean, you know -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 867 1 MR. WEINBERG: I -- 2 THE COURT: You are acting as if you have a 3 jury here that -- I'm a judge that has been involved 4 in this case very deeply, and as I tried to suggest 5 to you on several occasions, I'm not an idiot. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I know that. 7 THE COURT: I know what lawyers do. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. 9 THE COURT: And I know if you get this many 10 lawyers together, all of whom have Scientology 11 cases, you put them on fishing trip or movie theater 12 or whatever, the subject comes up and they talk 13 about it. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And you couldn't have said it 15 better, and I'm making a record which I'm done with 16 on this thing -- 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. WEINBERG: -- indicating that this witness, 19 that is what this -- you know, this Paragraph 34 in 20 the complaint is all about, his sworn affidavit, has 21 told lies. You know, I'm using that -- 22 THE COURT: I already told you and I told your 23 team, save it for the jury. I don't care if he told 24 a bunch of lies or not. The law in Florida is if he 25 qualifies as an expert, he can testify. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 868 1 MR. WEINBERG: No, I understand your ruling. 2 I'm -- 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: This is for credibility 5 purposes. 6 THE COURT: I understand. 7 MR. WEINBERG: All right. But I'm pretty much 8 done with this area. 9 THE COURT: All right. Then let's have lunch. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Good. 11 THE COURT: And as I said, you just have to 12 forget -- I hope you all don't forget that I was a 13 lawyer for a long time. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, believe me -- 15 THE COURT: Please. 16 MR. WEINBERG: -- I am well aware of that. 17 THE COURT: Frankly, my findings will go to the 18 court this time with a presumption of correctness. 19 This is not a de novo hearing -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: No, I understand that. 21 THE COURT: -- by the Second District. 22 MR. WEINBERG: No, but it has also been a long 23 proceeding. 24 THE COURT: Well, I understand, but it seems to 25 me as if part of what you want to do is have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 869 1 Mr. Prince up here just forever. I made statements 2 before about Mr. Prince. I'm aware of Mr. Prince's 3 bias. I mean, Mr. Minton, according to Mr. Prince, 4 shows where I said this before, this is not new. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I understand, but I just started 6 yesterday -- I mean, yesterday late -- 7 THE COURT: I understand. But you are spending 8 an awful lot of time about pickets which I knew what 9 they would say, with pickets that I knew would not 10 be pretty, all as if you are trying to show me what 11 I already know. You are wasting time here. 12 MR. WEINBERG: But -- 13 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until 1:30. 14 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 12:00 to 1:35 p.m.) 15 ______________________________________ 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 870 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 10th day of July, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500