1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 1 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Frank Oliver. 17 DATE: July 11, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 10 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 11 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 12 13 MR. LEE FUGATE MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization. 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 20 Organization. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 3 1 THE COURT: Okay. Did you find whatever clip 2 it was you wanted to show? 3 MR. DANDAR: It does not exist on that tape and 4 in Hubbard's voice, so we're not going to play the 5 tape. 6 THE COURT: All right. You may call your next 7 witness. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, before that happens, did 9 Mr. Keane bring the other videos over for you to 10 review? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 13 THE COURT: There are five of them, however. 14 He tells me he -- he didn't, somebody that had put 15 them on a VCR. 16 MR. FUGATE: What happened was when you asked 17 me, I called. And it turns out that they hadn't 18 converted them to whatever you needed to see them 19 on. 20 THE COURT: They have. And they gave them to 21 me. But they said there are five of them and each 22 one was an hour. 23 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 24 THE COURT: So I don't know when I'm going to 25 get to them. Maybe this weekend. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 4 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't know how long we'll 2 be going. They all involve Mr. Dandar, though, is 3 that correct? 4 THE COURT: I don't know. I think there were 5 several that -- I said -- I don't remember. He said 6 there were several. I said I wanted to see them 7 before they were released. 8 MR. FUGATE: But you don't have them? 9 THE COURT: I have them. Yes. And there may 10 have been a couple that were claimed attorney-client 11 privilege. I don't know what they are. All I know, 12 he sent them over. They're on the VCR. 13 MR. FUGATE: Obviously I had older information 14 because I understood they had two. And there 15 were -- 16 THE COURT: Five. 17 MR. FUGATE: All right. 18 THE COURT: You may call your next witness. 19 MR. LIROT: Your Honor, we would like to call 20 Frank Oliver. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I want to address 22 something before Mr. Oliver takes the stand. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. WEINBERG: As I indicated before, we object 25 to Mr. Oliver testifying. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 5 1 And the primary -- first of all, the question 2 is, is he being called as an expert or fact witness. 3 That is number one. 4 But our primary objection is that in April of 5 2000 we -- or shortly before that, we had subpoenaed 6 to take the deposition of Mr. Oliver. The 7 plaintiff, Mr. Dandar, moved for a protective order 8 against us taking the deposition of Mr. Oliver and 9 several other people. And in the course of that 10 argument, on April 10, 2000 in front of Judge -- 11 this was Judge Moody -- on Page 13, and I quote, 12 "Mr. Dandar said Frank Oliver is a former OSA 13 Scientologist. He's no longer a Scientologist. 14 He's not testifying in this case," meaning the 15 wrongful death case, "he has nothing to do with this 16 case whatsoever." 17 Based on that representation, Mr. -- Judge 18 Moody said, "I'm granting that motion for protective 19 order. You can't take the deposition of Frank 20 Oliver." 21 So to the extent that the plaintiff in this 22 case is calling Mr. Oliver to testify about this 23 case or about the allegations in the complaint, we 24 object. We -- we went through that exercise several 25 years ago and we were prevented from taking his Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 6 1 deposition. 2 If Mr. Oliver is here to testify about this 3 conversation with Mr. Prince that Mr. Prince talked 4 about, you know, I don't have any objection to that. 5 But if he's being put on the stand to -- to 6 testify about Scientology or this case, we object 7 because Mr. Dandar already represented on the record 8 that he has nothing whatsoever to do with this case. 9 Now, to the extent whether or not Mr. Oliver 10 could ever be an expert, he's been offered on at 11 least three occasions, once in Mr. Prince's trial, 12 once in Mr. Minton's trial, and once in the Henson 13 matter. And he has never been accepted as an expert 14 on Scientology. 15 So -- so -- and there is dialogue, we went back 16 and forth, you'll see he was only a staff member 17 some eight, nine or ten months. And the last time 18 he was a staff member was apparently in late 1991. 19 But our primary objection is that we were 20 prevented from taking his deposition because of the 21 representation of Mr. Dandar that he had nothing 22 whatsoever to do with this case. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. DANDAR: I did not at that time -- that was 25 for the trial. This is a different hearing. This Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 7 1 is a different subject matter. Mr. Oliver has 2 pertinent things to talk about, including 3 conversations with Mr. Minton. 4 THE COURT: All right. Then he will be allowed 5 to testify. As far as -- this is a different 6 hearing. This is not the trial, obviously. 7 One of the allegations in this hearing is that 8 the allegations in the -- really all of the 9 complaints except for the first one were -- were 10 false, known to be false and what have you. I don't 11 know that in 2000 that was an allegation. So -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what was an allegation? 13 THE COURT: That any motion to dismiss, motion 14 to exclude counsel, motion -- motion that counsel 15 permitted perjury -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Not that. But as soon as the 17 fifth amended complaint was moved to be filed, which 18 was in -- whenever it was -- September of 1999, we 19 complained very loudly this was nonsense, that this 20 affidavit of Jesse Prince was -- you know, was 21 complete rubbish and there was absolutely no 22 evidence whatsoever that would justify naming David 23 Miscavige, A, as a party or, B, suggesting that he 24 ordered the death of Lisa McPherson. 25 So we -- we made that very clear from day one, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 8 1 long before we -- 2 THE COURT: Well, there is a difference in 3 saying we object and we're going to file a motion 4 for summary judgment and we're going to answer this 5 and do affirmative defenses and file a motion for 6 terminating sanctions stating, as part of the 7 allegations, rather than just a summary judgment, 8 that this was fraudulent and false and known to be 9 so by the lawyer at the time. 10 Those are allegations that don't come along 11 every day. They just came when you filed your 12 motion. And as far as I'm concerned, if he has 13 information regarding that, that would be something 14 totally different. 15 MR. WEINBERG: You mean as of the time that 16 Mr. Prince did his affidavit in August of '99 when 17 the motion was filed? 18 THE COURT: I don't know. In other words, as 19 of -- whether or not it is false, and, therefore, 20 Mr. Dandar knew it was false when he filed it, and, 21 therefore, it should somehow be excluded, if he has 22 information to say it is not false, I think he 23 should be permitted to testify about that. 24 I don't know what he's going to say. Let's 25 just see what he says. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 9 1 MR. WEINBERG: Is he going to be an expert on 2 Scientology? 3 THE COURT: I have no idea. 4 MR. LIROT: Judge -- I didn't mean to 5 interrupt, I'm sorry. 6 He's going to testify as to his personal 7 experience. We are not going to ask for expert 8 testimony. 9 THE COURT: You are not going to ask for his 10 opinions? 11 MR. LIROT: I'm going to ask for his 12 experience, what assignments he was given. I'm 13 going to ask him to authenticate a number of 14 documents he produced pursuant to subpoena served on 15 him. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. LIROT: So essentially -- and candidly, the 18 purpose of his testimony would be to show that it 19 supports our allegation that Mr. Minton and what 20 we'll call this turnabout of Mr. Minton's position, 21 as we have alleged, is supported by what we consider 22 to be a routine practice of the Church. 23 And we hope we're able to support that by the 24 testimony and documents Mr. Oliver is able to 25 present. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 10 1 THE COURT: That is certainly new and did not 2 exist in -- I'm sorry -- in 2000. So -- 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Again, your Honor, routine 4 practice from someone whose last experience was 5 eleven years ago is not admissible under 402, I 6 think, and 404. 7 THE COURT: It does not sound like a religious 8 argument. So if you have an argument to make, tell 9 Mr. Weinberg. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I'll stand up -- well, the rules 11 are 404 and 406. You know -- 12 THE COURT: I don't know what he'll say. Let's 13 let him go and see what he says. 14 Step forward, sir. 15 (Witness sworn.) 16 THE COURT: You may lower your hand and have a 17 seat. 18 Do you-all have any idea what witness of yours 19 this is number-wise? 20 MR. LIROT: I had it noted. I want to say 21 number 10. 22 THE COURT: I'll just put a number down. It 23 doesn't matter. 24 MR. LIROT: I know it is Day 30. 25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 11 1 ______________________________________ 2 FRANK OLIVER, 3 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 4 and testified as follows: 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Could you please state your name and spell your 8 last name for the record. 9 A My name is Frank Oliver. O-L-I-V-E-R. 10 Q And, Mr. Oliver, can you tell the Court how you 11 are currently employed? 12 A A graphic designer. 13 Q Can you please give us a brief summary of your 14 educational background. 15 A I attended high school in Miami, Florida. I 16 attended approximately three and a half years of college, a 17 year in Louisiana and two years in Miami. 18 Q All right. At some point did you become involved 19 with the Church of Scientology? 20 A Yes. In the summer of 1986. 21 Q All right. And can you tell us how your 22 involvement began? 23 A I was in Ft. Lauderdale. And basically I was 24 driving from a friend's house and saw a sign that said 25 "Dianetics, free personality test." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 12 1 And I had been always curious as to what that -- 2 you know, the Dianetics book was about and what that subject 3 was about. 4 And I went in and took the personality test at the 5 Ft. Lauderdale mission. They called it a mission. It was 6 more like an old house with a big parking lot in front. 7 And, Mmm, I went inside and met the people that were there 8 and asked them what it was about, this -- this free 9 personality test I was always curious about. And that was 10 my first foray into knowing anything about Scientology. 11 Q Now, did you take any courses in Scientology 12 during your period when you were a member? 13 A Yeah. That is one of the first things I found out 14 is that it was -- the subject was about -- it was more like 15 a school in a room where people sat behind big tables and 16 studies than what I originally thought. 17 I had some idea it might be something having to do 18 with psychoanalysis or something because, you know, I picked 19 up the book and had seen something about it. 20 And part of it was a lot of these courses that you 21 took. And the courses are on different subject matters. 22 And they have a course on communication, for example. That 23 was one of the courses that I took where it is supposed to 24 help you be a better communicator, understand people when 25 they communicate, and how to control communication, you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 13 1 know, when you talk to someone. 2 Another course was on the subject itself of what 3 Hubbard called the eight dynamics. 4 There were a lot of these little courses that I 5 took right at the beginning. And -- Mmm -- the -- probably 6 on the fourth or fifth time I went up to Ft. Lauderdale, 7 Mmm, I met some people that were from the Miami org. Org is 8 their abbreviation for organization. 9 THE COURT: You can assume that I know a great 10 deal more about the Church of Scientology than you 11 probably know that I know. So let me ask you if 12 there is something you say that I don't know what it 13 means. Okay? 14 THE WITNESS: All right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could I ask -- there 16 is some noise outside. Could he get a little closer 17 to the microphone? 18 THE WITNESS: The chair doesn't move? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Or just move the mike. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you. Is that better? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 22 A So these people that came up from Miami, they were 23 there on what was called a mission. And what their job was 24 to do was to see what people were in this Ft. Lauderdale 25 mission at the time. They were on their own mission, see Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 14 1 what kind of people were there that they could try and get 2 to come down to the Miami org, which is the higher-up 3 organization from the Ft. Lauderdale mission. It has the 4 more -- it has more advanced courses and services that they 5 offer. 6 And I met a lady named Paulette Culp, who is a 7 very nice lady. She told me about -- she told me more about 8 Scientology and told me there were more advanced courses 9 there and I could get what is called auditing. And she was 10 very interested in me coming there. 11 And she even said, "Well, you live in Miami. You 12 drive up to Ft. Lauderdale. Why don't you just come down to 13 the Miami org located in Coral Gables." 14 So from that point on, I didn't go to the Ft. 15 Lauderdale mission any longer, I started going to the Miami 16 org in Coral Gables. And that is where I did a few basic 17 courses there, as well. 18 And then I started a course called the Student 19 Hat, H-A-T. And the Student Hat course deals with -- it's 20 the first course you take in Scientology that has to do with 21 what they call the bridge. And on the training side is 22 where you train. And on the auditing side is where you get 23 the different levels of auditing. 24 Hubbard writes that in order for someone to truly 25 understand any subject matter, they have to first learn how Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 15 1 to learn. And so the Student Hat course basically teaches 2 you how to learn not only their subjects, but any subject 3 you want to learn. 4 There is a lot of looking up words in the 5 dictionary, and it teaches you the barrister study. And the 6 course basically gets you to the point where you could 7 understand or comprehend a subject matter better by having 8 done this course. And that was the first major course that 9 I did there. 10 I also did, on the other side of the bridge, on 11 the auditing side, I did something called purification 12 rundown, which is -- basically it consisted of spending two 13 weeks in a sauna, and occasionally they would get you out of 14 the sauna and ask you some questions, and you would go back 15 in the sauna again. 16 And you finish that when you say you are finished. 17 There is no like you're going to be done in ten days. It is 18 not like that. You kind of have to go through these 19 processes in the sauna where you are supposed to have some 20 realizations and figure out that, you know, you are done 21 with the sauna. And after two weeks, I was done with the 22 sauna. 23 You had to spend hours in this thing. And they 24 gave you vitamins and made me drink mineral oil and calcium 25 and magnesium mixed together. That was my first foray into Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 16 1 this. 2 And since I was a good student and interested in 3 the subject matter at the time, I was approached to join 4 staff and become a staff member. And -- 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q So originally you were a public member or what has 7 been considered public? 8 A Correct. At that time I was paying for services 9 and my training. And I was going to the org -- I mean, I 10 was going almost every single day, spending four, five, six 11 hours there. 12 So eventually, when they recruited me for staff, 13 the first position I had was working with Paulette Culp who 14 was a division called tech call-in. I was a tech call-in 15 person. What I did, they gave me lists of people that had 16 paid for services -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, instead of a 18 narrative, could we just have some questions and 19 answers? 20 Could we date when he became a staff member? 21 THE COURT: Tell us what date this was. 22 THE WITNESS: I became a staff member -- it was 23 sometime in early 1987. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q All right. And is it a privilege to be recruited Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 17 1 for staff? 2 A You would think that like in the regular business 3 world, you know, when somebody asks you to join their 4 company, it's a privilege. But after I saw -- they were 5 always going after public to become staff. They were always 6 looking for more people to join staff. 7 And I had a job. I had a regular job at that 8 time. But being on staff wasn't like having a job, they 9 don't pay you minimum wage, you get -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, the question was is 11 it a privilege to be a staff member. And that was 12 yes or no. And we're having a narrative. 13 THE COURT: I think the narrative is -- is 14 responsive, so it doesn't bother me. 15 Go on ahead. Continue. 16 A It wasn't something I wanted to make a decision to 17 join staff, you know. I saw what the people on staff were 18 getting paid. Some were getting like $60 a week. At that 19 time I was making $45,000 a year, so I wasn't about to leave 20 my $45,000-a-year job to make, at the most, $50, $60, $70 a 21 week. I don't consider that to be a fair question in the 22 asking. 23 However, I decided that since I was interested in 24 the subject matter and I liked the people that I was working 25 with there, that I would join staff as a part-time staff Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 18 1 member. So I was on what is called a foundation schedule, 2 which means you are not there as many hours as full-time 3 people. And I would go there at night and on the weekends. 4 I wouldn't go there during the day. I still had my regular 5 job. And I would go there at night and I would be a staff 6 member. 7 THE COURT: So staff members don't have to be 8 Sea Org members? 9 THE WITNESS: Not in a Class IV org. The Miami 10 org or org structure, these are people basically in 11 the community, just public people that join staff. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: And there are members of the 14 staff that are Sea Org members. There were several 15 members of our staff that were on Sea Org. 16 Later on when I was in OSA, when I was in the 17 Department of Special Affairs, my direct senior was 18 a Sea Org member. 19 THE COURT: So if most -- most of the people 20 that I have been hearing about were either called 21 public or Sea Org. I guess there is public -- 22 THE WITNESS: Staff and Sea Org. 23 THE COURT: Staff and Sea Org? 24 THE WITNESS: Correct. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, could I ask for continuing Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 19 1 permission to approach the bench and the witness 2 with exhibits? 3 THE COURT: You may. As long as you have 4 something in your hand, that is fine. If you want 5 to approach him without something in your hand, I 6 want to know why. 7 MR. LIROT: Very good. We have a number -- 8 I'll give the Court copies we prepared for you. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. LIROT: I have copies we've already 11 premarked for identification. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Do I get a copy? 13 MR. LIROT: Yes. 14 THE COURT: So a staff could be a public member 15 or Sea Org member? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, if you join the Sea Org, 17 you're basically signed up for life. 18 THE COURT: I know that. 19 THE WITNESS: Your discretion -- where you come 20 and go is theirs. 21 THE COURT: I know all this. What I asked is 22 if you are on staff, you can then be a public member 23 or a Sea Org member? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, a public member is somebody 25 who comes in, does a course and goes home. A staff Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 20 1 member is someone who has to be there at a certain 2 time, also does courses and services under the fact 3 they are staff members and they go home. 4 A Sea Org member is somebody who is in 24/7. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Mr. Oliver, I handed you a document we had marked 8 for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 136. I'll 9 ask you if you can identify that document. 10 A Yes, I can. This is -- I guess it would be 11 like -- this is something out of the business end, I guess, 12 of Scientology. This is a description of Department 20, the 13 Department of Special Affairs. 14 Q And is that what is commonly known as OSA or 15 Office of Special Affairs? 16 A Yes, the Office of Special Affairs, this is 17 actually the branch of the Office of Special Affairs which 18 is what is considered a Class IV org, which is lower orgs, 19 which is below like an advanced org like in Los Angeles. So 20 the functions of this department are similar to the 21 functions of the Office of Special Affairs. 22 Q All right. And at one point did you become a 23 member of the Office of Special Affairs? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. Let me hand you what we've marked Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 21 1 as -- for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 137 2 and ask you if you recognize this document. 3 A Yes, I recognize this document. This is a 4 document that was -- again, this is another document that 5 was given to me once I was a member of the Office of Special 6 Affairs. 7 This document is a section of a complete printout 8 that was made of all of the staff members of the Miami org 9 at the time I was in the Office of Special Affairs. And it 10 lists which division, the name of the staff member, what 11 department they were in, their post, and whether they were a 12 full-time or day -- or day, meaning they worked part-time. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an objection 14 which I would like to state for the record. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I can either do it through voir 17 dire or state my objection now as to these 18 documents. But -- but -- 19 THE COURT: He just simply asked him to 20 identify a document. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. We put Mr. Oliver 22 on notice, we being the lawyers for the Church of 23 Scientology -- on May 26, 1998 when documents began 24 to appear on the Internet, we put Mr. Oliver on 25 notice that he -- when he left staff apparently in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 22 1 1991, he stole a series of documents, apparently 2 including these and the rest of the documents from 3 his hat. 4 I mean, obviously this -- this one we're just 5 seeing here, this is a staff roster. I mean, this 6 is a personnel document or private document. There 7 are various other documents. He stole them. He 8 didn't have any right to them. 9 We put him on notice. We received a letter 10 back -- he then hired Mr. Leipold. And Mr. Leipold 11 wrote a letter back saying, you know, "Come on." 12 But at that point there was no further 13 dissemination of these documents until today. And I 14 just heard, when Mr. Lirot started, that these are 15 documents that now Mr. Lirot has, quote, subpoenaed 16 for this proceeding, subpoenaed documents that 17 Mr. Oliver knows he stole from the Church when he 18 left the Church as an employee of the Church. 19 So we object to the use of the documents 20 because of the way in which these documents were 21 obtained. 22 THE COURT: You subpoenaed these documents? 23 MR. LIROT: Yes. He produced these documents 24 pursuant to a subpoena duces tecum. 25 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 23 1 MR. WEINBERG: On cross-examination I can get 2 into the circumstances under which he obtained 3 these -- 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. WEINBERG: -- documents? 6 MR. LIROT: Very good. 7 THE COURT: But are you trying to tell me that 8 you have a roster that has who works on what days is 9 a stolen document? 10 MR. WEINBERG: There is a whole stack of 11 documents. 12 THE COURT: You stood up and you started 13 talking about this is a roster of the people he 14 worked with and what department they were in and 15 when they worked. You stood up, told me this was a 16 stolen document. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I wanted to make sure that I got 18 on the record immediately what I believe is 19 happening, which is this entire stack of documents 20 in front of you are documents that Mr. Oliver -- 21 THE COURT: And I am taking it that this is 22 considered by the Church of Scientology to be a 23 document that, if this man is on staff, could not 24 take home to make a copy of. Is that right? 25 MR. WEINBERG: That, and the other documents. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 24 1 Just as my staff isn't supposed to take home 2 documents with regard to personnel matters. 3 THE COURT: Okay. I understand. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Well, Mr. Oliver -- 6 THE COURT: This first thing is something that 7 says what is the Department of Special Affairs. 8 MR. WEINBERG: It is not the content we have a 9 problem with. It is the manner in which the 10 documents were obtained. 11 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I asked you whether 12 or not a member of the Department of Special Affairs 13 could Xerox and take home a copy that defines where 14 he works, or is that considered stealing in the 15 Church? I mean -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let's go through the rest 17 of the documents. I just wanted to put my objection 18 on the record, because there is correspondence that 19 went back and forth. There is obviously a lot of 20 other documents that are in this stack. 21 THE COURT: Well, go on ahead. 22 MR. LIROT: All right. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Mr. Oliver -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: If I had the whole stack, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 25 1 could go through them quickly. But Mr. Lirot is 2 handing me one at a time, instead of giving me the 3 whole stack. 4 MR. LIROT: I'll make sure he gets a copy of 5 every exhibit as it is tendered, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 9 marked as Exhibits 138, 139 and 140. And I'm going to ask 10 you if you recognize those documents. 11 A Yes, I do recognize these documents. 12 Q All right. Can you tell the Court what those 13 documents are? 14 A The first document, 138, this is a section of an 15 org board for a Class IV org which delineates the three 16 different departments under the executive division, which is 17 Division 7. 18 Department 20 is the Department of Special 19 Affairs. 20 Underneath the Department of Special Affairs are 21 listed all of the posts of the Department of Special 22 Affairs. 23 Investigation Section. And below Investigation 24 Section it says "Investigations Officer." That was my post 25 when I was in the Office of Special Affairs. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 26 1 The second document is a description of the -- 2 THE COURT: You say second document -- 3 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, Page 139. Number 139. 4 THE COURT: It is Exhibit -- 5 THE WITNESS: Exhibit, sorry. 6 THE COURT: The "P" is for plaintiff. 7 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 8 A The Office of Special Affairs International. This 9 describes for -- I guess this would be either -- this 10 actually came out of a document -- a brochure that was made 11 for the public that describes the Office of Special Affairs 12 International and how it operates through the continental 13 liaison office down into the Department of Special Affairs 14 of a Class IV org. 15 So what you have is the structure of how 16 information flows up and down the chain of command. 17 At the bottom it shows that OSA Int is part of the 18 Flag Command Bureau. And above that is the commanding 19 officer of OSA Int. And above that is WDC OSA. 20 So you have the structure, how it goes from all of 21 the way at the top, to all of the way to the bottom. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q All right. And, Mr. Oliver, if you could -- it 25 speaks for itself but if you could explain to the Court what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 27 1 Exhibit 140 is? 2 A Exhibit 140 is our -- are copies of the top one is 3 an IAS, International Association of Scientologists card, a 4 staff-awarded card for membership in the International 5 Association of Scientologists. Instead of -- if I was a 6 public person and I was going to join ISA, it costs $2,000 7 for a lifetime membership. Since I was a staff status 2 8 staff member, that card was given to me as an award. 9 The bottom card was an ID card that was issued to 10 me when I traveled to Los Angeles to work at the higher 11 level with the Office of Special Affairs in what was called 12 the can unit. 13 THE COURT: What? 14 A Can. C-A-N. The can unit. This particular card 15 had a magnetic stripe on the back which allowed me access to 16 go in and out of an area there known as the Pac Base, 17 spelled P-A-C, the Pac Base. This allowed me to get in and 18 out of the different areas that were secured. 19 THE COURT: When it says "Post DSA," is that 20 the Department of Special Affairs? 21 THE WITNESS: Right. And after that, I-N-V 22 means invest. So that lets them know what my post 23 was in my org when I was in Los Angeles. They would 24 see, well, what is your post. My post in Los 25 Angeles was I was -- I was a Department of Special Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 28 1 Affairs investigator. 2 THE COURT: Is the Office of Special Affairs or 3 Department of Special Affairs one in the same thing? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's the higher level of the 5 same -- same section of the -- of the organization. 6 THE COURT: But there is no distinction between 7 Division of Special Affairs and -- 8 THE WITNESS: Department of Special Affairs. 9 THE COURT: Department of Special Affairs? 10 THE WITNESS: The only distinction is that it 11 is called the Department of Special Affairs. When 12 you are in a Class IV organization, when you are in 13 like the Miami organization, that is what it is 14 called for name function. But functions and duties 15 I had there were identical to the functions and 16 duties I had in Los Angeles working for the Office 17 of Special Affairs. 18 THE COURT: That is what they call Office of 19 Special Affairs? 20 THE WITNESS: Correct. 21 THE COURT: Which is more than a Class IV org? 22 THE WITNESS: Correct, yes. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, at this point I would like 25 to move Exhibits 136 through 140 into evidence. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 29 1 THE COURT: Any objection? 2 MR. WEINBERG: No. 3 THE COURT: They'll be received. 4 (Discussion had off the record.) 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what has been marked for 7 identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 141 and ask you if you 8 recognize that document. 9 A Yes, I recognize this document. 10 Q All right, can you tell the Court what Exhibit 141 11 is? 12 A When I was recruited in -- it was late 1989, early 13 1990, I was recruited for the Office of Special Affairs to 14 be the investigations officer. 15 When they recruited me for this position, they 16 required me to fill out this form, which is called Life 17 History Questionnaire. 18 I had -- I made a copy of it because when -- when 19 they gave me this, I felt that some of the questions on here 20 were a little -- a little more than I ever wanted to answer 21 or put on a piece of paper to anybody. 22 THE COURT: This was for the -- once you were 23 going to join the Department of Special Affairs? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I had been on staff 25 previous. As I mentioned, I was a tech call-in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 30 1 officer. 2 After a little more than a year, my financial 3 situation required me to spend more time working, so 4 I routed off of staff. And at that time I was given 5 what is called a freeloader bill. A freeloader bill 6 is something they give you that once you join staff 7 and you leave, any courses or anything you took 8 while you were in Scientology, you pay them back. 9 So about maybe two months or a month and a half 10 after I left staff, I paid off that freeloader bill 11 and I came back as a public staff member taking 12 courses. 13 I then started doing some work for the Office 14 of -- Department of Special Affairs as basically a 15 volunteer. And that was from probably -- maybe 16 mid-'88, all of the way up until '89, early '90 when 17 I was actually asked to be a staff member. At that 18 time is when they gave me this to fill out. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Did any of the questions on the first page, I 21 guess Questions 1 through 11, cause you any great concern? 22 A Mmm, well, not -- not really. I mean, not 23 anything on here -- nothing on here really bothered me on 24 this page, to tell you the truth. There was just -- I guess 25 they had to ask me these questions. So I didn't have too Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 31 1 much of a problem with that. 2 Q On the second page -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, my objection is this 4 is interesting, I suppose, and maybe you want to 5 hear it. But what does this have to do with the 6 case? 7 THE COURT: I don't know. 8 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think I would like to get 9 into some of these questions here. Obviously, part 10 of the theory of our case is that the OSA has 11 certain practices and policies and customs. And I 12 think it is interesting and certainly very relevant 13 to look at what -- what background information the 14 Church looked at before you are even allowed to 15 become a member of the OSA. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Except Mr. Minton wasn't a 17 member of the Office of Special Affairs -- 18 THE COURT: I think part of the allegation -- 19 at least as I recall it, part of the allegation is 20 the Office of Special Affairs would have been 21 involved with the Lisa McPherson case from the 22 beginning. 23 And Mr. Miscavige, because of that, would have 24 been advised. And Mr. Miscavige, of course, the 25 allegation is, then gave a direction. So -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 32 1 MR. WEINBERG: Except that this is questions. 2 What Mr. Lirot is saying is questions somebody who 3 might become a member would be asked. What does 4 that have to do with it? 5 THE COURT: I don't know because I haven't read 6 this. 7 Go on ahead. 8 MR. LIROT: All right. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Question 12 says -- 11 THE COURT: I dare say I am sure I heard a lot 12 of information in this hearing that will turn out to 13 be irrelevant. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Mr. Oliver, Question 12 says: "Are you or have 16 you ever been a newspaper reporter or journalist of any 17 kind? If yes, give full details." 18 Do you know of any member of OSA that was actually 19 admitted that answered yes to that question? 20 A Not to my knowledge. 21 Q And I think that they asked you about your 22 criminal record. They ask you if you -- something about 23 drug use. 24 I think on the third page under 34 it says, "Has 25 your mother expressed any opinion against Dianetics and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 33 1 Scientology, or does she have any objection to your working 2 in connection with it?" 3 Would a parent's discontent with Scientology 4 eliminate somebody from consideration for membership in OSA? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Is he now asking for 6 his opinion? 7 THE COURT: Right. That would be something 8 that -- that I'm not sure he would know. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, we would like to move 10 Exhibit 141 into evidence. 11 THE COURT: I'm going to let it be received. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not objecting to the 13 exhibit. 14 THE COURT: I'm going to let it be received. I 15 don't know that it has any relevance, but -- but as 16 I said, I received a lot of things that will 17 probably turn out that are not relevant. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 20 marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 142 21 and ask if you can identify that for the Court. 22 A Yes. This is a Sea Org contract that was given to 23 me when I was in California. I was -- this is probably the 24 closest they ever got to actually getting me to join the Sea 25 Org. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 34 1 I had agreed to sign it and to turn it in before I 2 left to some few individuals that had approached me when I 3 was in California about joining the Sea Org. 4 I had been approached earlier in my career in 5 Scientology by people wanting me to join the Sea Org and -- 6 Mmm -- when they approached me -- when they approached me in 7 L.A., I had reservations about it because of my 8 experience -- 9 THE COURT: He really is way past your 10 question. 11 MR. LIROT: A little bit. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Well, did you ultimately join the Sea Org? 14 A No, I refused to hand this back in, the signed 15 contract. I didn't want to do it after I -- 16 Q Were you at any point pressured to join the Sea 17 Org? 18 A When they first tried to get me to join in Miami, 19 yes, I was -- I was told to go to a room, auditing room in 20 the Miami org on the second floor, where there were two Sea 21 Org members there who were on a recruit mission. 22 And they kept me in the room for about three 23 hours. After about the first hour and a half, I -- Mmm -- I 24 felt very uncomfortable, because they made the statement -- 25 THE COURT: I'm not sure what this has to do Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 35 1 with anything. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll not even move that one 3 into evidence. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. LIROT: I'll move along. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been 9 marked as Exhibit 143 and ask you if you recognize that 10 particular document? 11 A Yes, I recognize this document. 12 Q Can you tell the Court what Exhibit 143 is? 13 A This is the hat pack that was given to me in Los 14 Angeles for the Department of Special Affairs, to become a 15 fully hatted investigations officer. 16 THE COURT: That is something I heard said a 17 lot of times. And I really never asked anybody what 18 it is. What is a hat exactly? 19 THE WITNESS: A hat is something that you do. 20 For example, your hat here -- you are a judge. That 21 is the hat you wear. It encompasses all of the 22 things you have to know in order to do your job. 23 A hat pack in Scientology is a pack of 24 information like this that puts together 25 instructions and policies that apply to your Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 36 1 position in the organization. And you are to learn 2 these policies that apply to what you do, you are to 3 do the steps in this course. And at the completion 4 of the course, you are then qualified to hold that 5 position and you are acknowledged as being a fully 6 hatted staff member. 7 So this is basically your instruction manual 8 for your job, basically. 9 THE COURT: If somebody said, "What is your 10 hat," that means "What is your job"? 11 THE WITNESS: Correct. 12 THE COURT: All right. I may have been told 13 that before but I forgot. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Now, what is the significance -- this said 16 "Investigations Officer, Full Hat Check Sheet." 17 How is this document utilized in you acquiring the 18 authority to be a member of OSA on the -- as an 19 investigations officer? 20 A What this does is it is something you have to 21 complete. It's -- like I said, it's the instruction manual. 22 You have to go through every step in here. You have to -- 23 there are three lines next to every single step here where 24 you put your initials, then the date, then you are checked 25 out by another individual within the Office of Special Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 37 1 Affairs to ensure that you fully understand all of the 2 policies and everything that is written about a particular 3 policy as it reflects on your position. 4 So you really have to know this stuff in order to 5 be a fully-hatted staff member for that particular post. 6 Q All right. And as you go through the document, if 7 you turn to Page 2, it says, "Section A, Keeping Scientology 8 Working," it has a "1" and an asterisk there. 9 What are those documents identified there? 10 A Anything with an asterisk next to it, you have to 11 do a star rate checkout, where on other policy letters that 12 don't have asterisk, you can just read the policy letter and 13 initial it and just keep going. 14 On a star rate checkout, you have to sit with 15 somebody, put the policy -- they take their policy and they 16 look at it and they ask you questions off of it. They just 17 pick questions out at random off the policy letter and ask 18 you for the definition of a word they picked out. They can 19 ask you for the definition of -- of a specific technical 20 word, or they can ask you the definition of the word "the" 21 if they want to. 22 Q And where it says "HCOP," those are Hubbard 23 Communications Office Policy letters? 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: Is that to be sure you have read it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 38 1 and having somebody sort of check out you have read 2 that particular document? 3 THE WITNESS: Correct. And they pick out words 4 at random, because if there is -- let's say a 5 specific word about something specialized and you 6 just kind of read over it and you didn't really 7 understand what that word meant, that kind of 8 catches those misunderstandings so you can fully 9 understand what you read, so you just don't say, 10 "Yeah, yeah, I read it," and you sign off. 11 They go, "What does the word 'keeping' mean?" 12 So if you have the definition of that word, then 13 they go, "Okay, you studied it." 14 THE COURT: And if you don't get it right, then 15 you have to read it again? 16 THE WITNESS: They give you what is called a 17 flunk. They tell you you flunk. And then they make 18 you go back and you have to look up that word and 19 make sure you have the full definition of it. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q And this hat -- the hat checklist is broken down 23 into several subsections. Section A is Keeping Scientology 24 Working. 25 Section B gives you a number of key words. What Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 39 1 is the import of those key words? 2 A This is like what I was describing a minute ago 3 about a star rate checkout. 4 THE COURT: Your star what? 5 THE WITNESS: Star rate, R-A-T-E. Star rate 6 checkout. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 A Students that complete a course called -- students 9 that complete another course, that means you are 10 super-literate, don't have to do star rate checkouts 11 anymore. Once you do that course, you are considered fast 12 flow, which means you can go through stuff without having to 13 get a checkout. 14 So unless you have done that course, any place 15 where you see that asterisk, you have to get checked out on. 16 These words here are specific to the post of 17 investigations officer. So this is -- this is kind of like 18 the -- I want to say like the -- the key words associated 19 with this position in the organization. So they want to 20 make sure you have a full understanding of all these words, 21 in particular. So instead of committing these words to -- 22 you know, just randomly picking them out of a policy 23 letter -- they have taken those words and delineated them 24 here as something that individually needs to be looked up 25 and make sure you have a full understanding of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 40 1 definition. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q And is that because those words would be used in 4 routing slips or reports or things of that nature? 5 A They would be used in any context of that 6 particular position. They may not be used in other areas of 7 the organization, you know. Somebody in a tech area might 8 never need, you know, to know the definition of these words. 9 If they know them, fine. But for this position, they are 10 required that you know them. 11 Q All right. Subsection C talks about "Invest 12 Basics," and it talks about a clay demo. 13 Let me back up. It says OSA NW9. What type of 14 document does that represent? 15 A That is an OSA network order. Those are specific 16 documents only for people within the OSA network, the Office 17 of Special Affairs network. And that goes from WDC OSA, all 18 of the way down to the Department of Special Affairs in a 19 Class IV org. 20 Q WDC being the watchdog committee? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Which, as I think the Court is familiar with the 23 organizational chart, that is at the very top? 24 A Highest echelon. 25 Q What is a clay demo? Number 2 there, it says, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 41 1 "Clay demo, the definition of intelligence"? 2 A Clay demo is another tool to assist in 3 understanding. And it is used in all of Scientology course 4 packs and in the Scientology courses. 5 A person sits at a table. You have some clay 6 there in different colors and whatnot. And you are given a 7 concept. For example, definition of intelligence. So you 8 would actually take pieces of clay and make little stick men 9 and lay out some aspects defining intelligence, like maybe a 10 little man looking in a file cabinet. Say you do that with 11 clay, then put a little label on the file cabinet, put a 12 little label on the document he's pulling out, and maybe a 13 little label on the man itself, and put "man" and put 14 "investigator" there. Then you would have the definition of 15 intelligence written on a piece of paper and put that face 16 down in front of it. 17 And then the supervisor comes over and looks at 18 your little clay demo with all those little labels sticking 19 on it, and then they figure out from your little -- you 20 know -- little thing you created there, they figure out it 21 looks like intelligence, it looks like you are talking about 22 intelligence here, an intelligence activity. 23 Then they flip over the paper and they see 24 "definition of intelligence." And they say that is a pass, 25 which means you have the concept so well that you can Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 42 1 actually create it in 3D so someone else looking at the 2 exact same thing can say, "Okay, I get it." So that proves 3 that you really got it. If you can create it in clay, you 4 really got it. 5 THE COURT: I never get it in clay. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I do have a First 7 Amendment objection to this. He's describing his 8 version of how Scientology works and what 9 Scientology processes -- 10 THE COURT: Keep it to what it is you did, not 11 what you think it means to Scientology. What you 12 did. 13 And that would cure your objection, I take it, 14 Counsel. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Just for the record, 16 it's my understanding that Mr. Oliver never 17 completed this course that Mr. -- this hat pack that 18 Mr. Lirot is going through. So to the extent that 19 he's waxing eloquent about this, he should confine 20 it to his experience. 21 THE COURT: Exactly. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Now, Section D on Page 4 says "Department 20." 24 And I guess it gives a number of different checklists there. 25 And -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 43 1 THE COURT: What section are you on, Counsel? 2 MR. LIROT: I was on Page 4, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right, I see it. 4 MR. LIROT: I think, quite honestly, Judge, the 5 rest of the document basically speaks for itself. 6 All of the headings are there. And it gives the 7 sections, apparently, you have to be proficient in 8 and able to go through this particular hat pack and 9 achieve proficiency in these different areas. 10 Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 143 into 11 evidence. 12 THE COURT: Any objection? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. 14 THE COURT: It will be received. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 17 marked as Exhibit 144 and ask if you can identify that for 18 the Court. 19 A Yes. This is an investigations check sheet. 20 Q What is this document used for? 21 A This is a check sheet that comes out of the 22 Volunteer Ministers Handbook. It's a mini course that is 23 done -- in my particular case, when I became a member of the 24 Office of Special Affairs, the first thing they do is give 25 you a mini hat, which is basically a basic course you do so Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 44 1 you can be instantly posted on that particular job. 2 So I did this course -- actually started this 3 course, and I was just about finished with it before I had 4 to go out to Los Angeles. When I went out to Los Angeles in 5 1991, I actually redid the course again from the beginning 6 because, you know, I had started over there and they said, 7 "No, we want you to redo it again." So I did the course 8 again and I actually completed this in Los Angeles in 1991 9 at AOLA. 10 MR. LIROT: I would like to move 144 into 11 evidence. 12 THE COURT: Any objection? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. So this is the 1991 -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, there was one prior to that 15 but it was left in Miami. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been 18 marked Exhibits 145 and 146 and ask you if you can identify 19 those for the Court. 20 A Yes, I can identify this. This is -- these are 21 ODC checklists. 145 is the short form checklist ODC. 146 22 is the long -- 23 THE COURT: What is ODC? 24 THE WITNESS: Overt data collection. 25 THE COURT: All right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 45 1 THE WITNESS: These forms are preliminary forms 2 that are used for an investigation once a target has 3 been identified. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Up at the top it says: "OSA Int ED" and it has a 6 little dash. What significance does that line have? 7 A It comes from OSA International. It's an 8 executive directive. I don't know what the dash is, 9 something you were to have written in but they never wrote 10 it in on this one. 11 Q Where it says "Name," what is it that would be I 12 guess characteristic of someone whose name would be placed 13 in here as the subject of an investigation or an ODC? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. He's asking for an 15 opinion again. 16 THE COURT: I don't even understand the 17 question. You mean you wouldn't put the person's 18 name in, like you -- he wouldn't put his own name in 19 there? 20 THE WITNESS: No, this document -- I filled out 21 plenty of these so I can tell you. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 THE WITNESS: Once a target was named, they 24 would say, "Okay, you're going to do an ODC on," you 25 know, "Luke Lirot," for example. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 46 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: I would write Luke Lirot's name 3 up there, and I would have the date I started doing 4 this form. Then I would go down the list here and 5 investigate every single one of these things under 6 "Courts: Federal, civil; public offices; marriage 7 records; library card," anything I can find to find 8 any information out about Luke Lirot. 9 THE COURT: All right. The "date started" 10 would be the date you started your investigation, 11 and "date completed" -- 12 THE WITNESS: No. This particular form. This 13 would be the day I started this particular form and 14 completed this form. This could be part of a larger 15 packet of information on a subject. 16 So the investigation start date and end date is 17 just -- 18 THE COURT: The same day? 19 THE WITNESS: Not the same day. But, for 20 example, if I started an investigation on Luke, it 21 could be ongoing, so this form where it says "date 22 completed" means the day I completed filling out 23 this form. 24 The investigation would have -- there would be 25 a lot more information when we're doing an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 47 1 investigation on an individual. 2 THE COURT: I see. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Now, Exhibit 146 says the "Long Form ODC 5 Checklist." What is the necessity of having the longer 6 form? 7 A More information. 8 THE COURT: Tell me what "ODC" is again? 9 THE WITNESS: Overt data collection. 10 THE COURT: Overt? 11 THE WITNESS: O-V-E-R-T. That means 12 information that can be readily available that you 13 can get in plain light of day. For example, like I 14 could go down to the driver's license office and try 15 to get someone's driver's license information. Or 16 go to the library -- 17 THE COURT: Overt, as opposed to covert? 18 THE WITNESS: Correct. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Mr. Oliver, in the tasks, when you would engage in 21 the effort to fill out the short form ODC checklist, what 22 was the purpose for your accumulation of that information? 23 A Mmm, many times because I worked in investigations 24 we didn't -- I wasn't given the full picture. I was 25 given -- whatever information was given to me, that is what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 48 1 I worked on. 2 So if they said that we've identified John Smith 3 as someone who is antagonistic, we need to pull an ODC on 4 this guy, go pull an ODC on John Smith, he lives in Miami, 5 Florida. That is sometimes all I was told. 6 Other times I was told, you know, maybe this man 7 was running a squirrel group, or this individual was a 8 disaffected member, or this individual is suing the Church. 9 I would be given some information but not complete 10 information because my job was to investigate, report back 11 data, write reports and whatever other intelligence 12 functions they needed for whatever subjects they needed. 13 MR. LIROT: I would like to move 145 and 146 14 into evidence. 15 MR. WEINBERG: If I could have standing 16 objection. 17 THE COURT: Relevance? 18 MR. WEINBERG: As to relevance, yes, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I am getting confused. It is 20 interesting, but what does it have to do with this 21 case? 22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think if you look at these 23 documents -- and I think I can tie it up. 24 Obviously, we have heard -- 25 THE COURT: If you think you can tie it up, go Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 49 1 ahead. 2 You have your continuing objection. 3 If you can't tie it up, I may go back and 4 revisit some of this. Okay? 5 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q All right. Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what 9 has been marked for identification as Plaintiff's Exhibit 10 147 and ask if you can identify this document for the Court. 11 A Yes, I can. This document -- this was faxed to me 12 from Los Angeles to the Miami org when I was there. This is 13 part of my hat. This delineates the description, point 14 value and breakdown of all the stats that affected my 15 particular post when I was an invest officer. 16 There were ten stats specifically. This breaks 17 down each one of them and defines their -- what it is that 18 the attack is, what policy letters reference that particular 19 statistic, what the point value is for the individuals on 20 that -- on that -- in that particular section. 21 Q What is the importance of stats? Why would that 22 be an issue? 23 A Every individual in Scientology, whether you are a 24 staff member, a Sea Org member, or just a public person, 25 your production is measured by your stats. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 50 1 If you are a student, for example, every day, 2 after you finish a course, however many pages you read, 3 however many checkouts you did, they have a point value. So 4 every student -- for example, when I was in the academy, 5 when I was doing a course, every day I would have to write 6 down how many of the different things I did. And there was 7 a board in the academy, and it had graphs, and I had my own 8 graph, and I would put there how many star rate checkouts I 9 did and how many pages I read. And they were worth points. 10 So they measured how good a student you were by 11 how high up your graph is going. When you are a staff 12 member -- for example, if you were a staff member here at 13 the courthouse, they would say how many courses did you hear 14 today, or how many witnesses did you put on the stand, or 15 how many documents did you take in evidence. 16 MR. WEINBERG: You would be in trouble on 17 stats. 18 MR. LIROT: I think the stats have taken a hit 19 in this hearing. 20 THE COURT: I think so. 21 A So in the Office of Special Affairs, this is what 22 breaks down what my stats were. And they all relate back to 23 whatever the primary function of that position is. It is 24 stated at the top, which is called "Investigation Section 25 VFP," which stands for "value of a final product," which is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 51 1 what is the value of a final product of someone in this 2 position? 3 And it says: "A section that brings about the 4 failure of influence of hostile groups or persons." 5 So that is the function of -- 6 THE COURT: Where are you reading? 7 THE WITNESS: The very top. 8 THE COURT: My very top seems to be blacked 9 out. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, this is the way I actually 11 got this, because when it was faxed to our office, 12 this was the tail-end of another report that was not 13 unrelated to this section. 14 THE COURT: Oh, I see. 15 THE WITNESS: Under the blackout it says -- 16 like "number of well-done auditing hours" I can see 17 crossed out. See, that has to do with auditing in 18 something faxed before. It wasn't related to this 19 subject. So they just crossed it out. 20 THE COURT: Now tell me where you are reading. 21 THE WITNESS: Right here at the top 22 "Investigation Section, VFP." 23 THE COURT: I see. 24 THE WITNESS: That shows the two valuable final 25 products of this position. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 52 1 Then it goes down and breaks down what the 2 different stats were. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Who is it that -- I guess they have different 5 points for different -- different -- I guess one point for 6 every attack? I'm about ten lines down. 7 A Uh-huh. 8 Q "This stat is counted one point for every attacker 9 plus one point if the attack is local, two points if the 10 attack is regional, four points if the attack is national." 11 Who is it that keeps track of that? 12 A Well, we keep track of it at my level. For 13 example, I kept track of my own stats for my own org and any 14 other org underneath me or -- excuse me, any mission 15 underneath me. 16 For example, the Miami org kept the stats of the 17 org and the Ft. Lauderdale mission at that time. These 18 stats are reported up the chain of command. They would have 19 gone to the CLO, which is basically the next level of 20 management in OSA, which would be, I would consider -- in my 21 particular case, it was OSA East US. 22 The continent is divided into two halves. There 23 is OSA East US and OSA West US. So our stats would go from 24 me, let's say, to OSA East US. OSA East US would combine 25 those stats with other stats from other orgs in that part of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 53 1 the country and they would go up to OSA Int. And from there 2 they go to WDC OSA. 3 So that is basically the way it is broken down. 4 All of the information is gathered from the bottom of the 5 statistics, so at WDC, they have all of the statistics 6 compiled of all of the attacks that are going against 7 various organizations and various individuals. And it is 8 all handled by them. 9 THE COURT: WDC is watchdog -- 10 THE WITNESS: Watchdog committee. That is 11 correct. They're the top echelon. WDC OSA. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q I guess the middle -- a little below the middle of 14 the first page, going over to the second page, it has 15 "Category of attacks are listed below." 16 If you, as a member of OSA or in the 17 investigations section, would you go out and just identify 18 for yourself some activity that you need to be an attack? 19 Or would you be assigned a special project that fill into 20 one of these subsections? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. He needs to speak 22 about his personal experience, instead of giving 23 some hypothetical. 24 MR. LIROT: That is exactly -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Again, I don't know what this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 54 1 has to do with anything. 2 THE COURT: I don't, either. 3 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 4 THE COURT: I have given Mr. Lirot the benefit 5 of the doubt -- he hasn't been here -- that he's 6 going to tie it up. If he doesn't, why he doesn't. 7 So keep this to your personal level. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am, I will. 9 A Most of the time what was given to me were either 10 direct assignments from either the OSA US level which would 11 be A -- the letter A Programs Aid East U.S. And that was a 12 lady by the name of Toni, T-O-N-I, Charambis (phonetic). I 13 don't know how to spell the last name. I think it starts 14 with C-H. 15 She would sometimes speak to me directly, or she 16 would speak to my senior -- the direct person over me in my 17 org, which is the DSA, which was Tracy Pase, P-A-S-E. She 18 was a Sea Org member. 19 They would -- they would be the ones giving me 20 assignments. But I had also gotten other assignments from 21 people higher up the chain of command. There was a lady by 22 the name of Kirsten who also used to call me. I think she 23 was an OSA staff security officer. 24 And they would give me targets. They would say, 25 "We want an ODC on, let's say, Michael Langon. We want an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 55 1 ODC on Kerry Gleason." 2 They would assign me to do investigations on 3 individuals. And they would say, "Okay, such and such a 4 person made a threat to the organization." Or, "We got a 5 call and complaint from such and such a person." Whatever 6 it was that they needed investigating they would give to me. 7 I wouldn't actually go out looking for things to 8 investigate. It never happened that way. There was always 9 plenty of names on the list of people that were subjects of 10 Scientology, or things would come up. And that is how I 11 would address those issues. I would never actively go out 12 seeking, you know -- 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Number 3 says: "A suit filed against a church 15 entity or individual." 16 Obviously, you saw the subpoena. You were handed 17 a case involving the Church or an entity related to the 18 Church. 19 Do you have any independent knowledge that any 20 individual associated with the lawsuit against the Church 21 would not be the result of an investigation? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. That -- I mean, that 23 is a hypothetical. I mean, I didn't even understand 24 what he means. He's talking about -- whatever that 25 is, overt this or that when you have court records. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 56 1 Is he suggesting that Mr. Dandar or I don't 2 have some ability to search court records and 3 bankruptcy files and things like that with regard to 4 any witness that -- that testifies? 5 THE COURT: I don't think he's suggesting that. 6 I think what he's suggesting -- I think what he 7 asked is whether or not anyone who filed a suit 8 against the Church would -- would have an ODC. 9 MR. LIROT: An ODC. 10 MR. WEINBERG: But that is a hypothetical. If 11 he can cite his own experience as to any particular 12 lawsuit that he was aware of -- 13 THE COURT: How long did you work in this 14 department? 15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, as an actual staff member, I 16 think it was about two years. 17 THE COURT: Two years? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 THE COURT: During that two-year period of 20 time, were you ever asked to do an ODC on someone 21 who filed a lawsuit against the Church? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Did you know other people in this 24 department? I mean, it seemed like that would be 25 fairly common, from what he's saying. I don't think Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 57 1 you have to be an expert for that. The man worked 2 there two years. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I think he just answered the 4 question. 5 THE WITNESS: I have done lawsuits -- I mean 6 investigations on people that filed lawsuits against 7 Scientology. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 10 147 into evidence. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Subject to your connecting 12 it up. 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, in addition 14 to the relevance objection, there is a cumulative -- 15 a cumulative aspect of this where this -- the 16 plaintiff is trying to go into every aspect of the 17 management, the organization, the beliefs and 18 practices of Scientology religion. 19 And there is a point at which the entanglement 20 becomes a real constitutional problem. 21 Now, I know that there are serious allegations. 22 We've brought a serious motion. But just because 23 the Church has alleged that Mr. Dandar suborned 24 perjury and permitted perjury, and just because the 25 Church alleged that he made a bogus allegation of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 58 1 murder, which he -- 2 THE COURT: And bogus allegation that David 3 Miscavige knew about this, and on and on. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: But that doesn't open the 5 Church up to waiving all its First Amendment 6 protections -- 7 THE COURT: I haven't heard this man violate 8 the First Amendment once yet. He talked about what 9 he did when he was a member of this church. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm talking about -- 11 THE COURT: He hasn't interpreted any church 12 policy. He has done nothing except say he was a 13 member of this church, he had a certain position and 14 this is what he did. That is not a violation of the 15 First Amendment. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: When the Court begins to 17 inquire into every aspect of the organization and 18 administration of a church, and the relevance is so 19 questionable that no one in this courtroom yet knows 20 what it is, it does become an entanglement problem, 21 your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Well, your objection is noted. 23 It's preserved. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you. 25 THE COURT: But I have not heard the first Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 59 1 First Amendment violation out of this man yet. 2 MR. LIROT: In short response, we are not 3 looking for anything that deals with the religiosity 4 of this church. 5 THE COURT: Exactly right. 6 MR. LIROT: The Church is entitled to whatever 7 rights it holds dear and wants to embrace. 8 We are talking about specific practices. And 9 obviously the allegations we've made, our concerns 10 are not what has been alleged against Mr. Dandar. 11 Our concerns and the reason we think this has 12 relevance is -- 13 THE COURT: Sit down, Counselor. You'll get 14 your turn. 15 MR. LIROT: Our concerns go directly to why we 16 think Mr. Minton turned it around. We're going 17 towards what we think he described as the 18 terminator, and we're going into great depth into 19 what we think supports his statements on the stand 20 in this hearing. 21 We are not making an attack on the Church. 22 We're not touching anything that we think deals with 23 religiosity. These are customs and practices that 24 cause us concerns in this hearing and I think we can 25 tie it in. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 60 1 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Just -- cases we briefed for 3 your Honor don't talk about just religious belief. 4 Religious belief, governance, administrative 5 procedure, et cetera, of the Church. There is a 6 protection between church and state, judiciary and 7 church, in terms of where inquiry and investigation 8 of how churches operate. 9 And I'm not saying that is an absolute wall. 10 We all know that the wall has its -- its windows. 11 And I'm not going to try and argue the pure 12 Jeffersonian position of an absolute wall to your 13 Honor. 14 But there are limits. And I submit to your 15 Honor that this -- what the plaintiff is doing is 16 going well beyond those limits. 17 THE COURT: All right. Continue. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been 21 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 148 and ask you if you can 22 identify that for the Court. 23 A Yes, I can identify this. This is a check sheet 24 for a noisy invest drill. 25 Q What is a noisy invest? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 61 1 A A noisy invest is an investigation done without 2 the aid or benefit of stealth, to be quite honest. It is 3 something you would do and you wouldn't make it a secret if 4 I was doing an investigation like this. I -- you know, I 5 would operate in the open and let the -- 6 THE COURT: Believe it or not, we've heard this 7 testimony. 8 A -- and let the individual know I was investigating 9 them. 10 THE COURT: Which means I don't need to hear it 11 again. 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll move Exhibit 148 into 13 evidence. 14 THE COURT: Subject to the same, if you can 15 connect it up somehow. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 18 identified as Plaintiff's Exhibit 149 and ask if you can 19 identify this for the Court. 20 A Yes, I can. This is a frequent flier club hat. 21 This is an instruction list that was given to me -- 22 actually, I think faxed to our office. Yes, this was faxed. 23 Q What is the purpose of this document? 24 A This is actually an instruction that was sent to 25 us from Support Chief OSA US. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 62 1 And it calls for instruction on how to create what 2 is called a suitable guise in pretending that you are 3 somebody else in order to obtain information on that 4 individual's itinerary and frequent flier -- under the guise 5 of asking for your frequent flier mile information. 6 So I could pretend, let's say, I was you. I would 7 call the airlines with some of the information that I 8 gleaned from other sources, pretend I'm you, ask to check my 9 frequent flier miles, and then say, "By the way, let me go 10 over my current itinerary." 11 And the airline would feed me back what your 12 current itinerary was as if I was you. Then I would know 13 where you were going and how you were going to get there. 14 Q So would OSA members, on occasion, be at the 15 airport to greet people that they felt were targets of 16 investigations? 17 A Mmm, from my personal experience, having done this 18 type of information, having done this type of work, yes. 19 People would be there from OSA either surveilling or 20 watching whoever the subject was. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 22 149 into evidence. 23 THE COURT: All right. That does have 24 relevance. Mr. Minton testified to that occurring. 25 So I suppose to the extent that it may be disputed, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 63 1 that would have some relevance. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 4 marked as Exhibit Number 150, ask if you can identify that 5 for the Court. 6 A Yes, I can. These are Office of Special Affairs 7 network orders that were part of the hat pack that I -- that 8 were shown to you or entered into evidence, I guess, 9 earlier. These are some of the issues which would be the 10 policy letters that directly relate to the hat pack. 11 These -- each one of them is of a different 12 subject matter. And these are only for distribution within 13 the OSA network, and not for distribution to other staff, 14 other Sea Org or public. 15 Q Let me turn your attention to the fourth page -- 16 fifth page, I'm sorry, the OSA Network Order 15, 17 confidential black propaganda. 18 THE COURT: What page are you on? 19 MR. LIROT: I'm on the fifth page in, Judge. 20 These aren't numbered. These are different network 21 orders. And we felt we would file them as a 22 composite exhibit. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 THE WITNESS: These are also referenced in the 25 check sheet. If you look on the check sheet, you'll Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 64 1 see these orders are referenced to the check sheet. 2 THE COURT: Is this a page -- oh, black 3 propaganda? 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Now, these are the network orders that you are 8 required to familiarize yourself with as part of that hat 9 pack, is that correct? 10 A Yes. That is correct. 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to enter this 12 into evidence as Exhibit Number 150. 13 THE COURT: It will be received, subject to 14 being connected up. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what we marked 17 as Exhibit Number 151 and ask if you can identify this 18 document for the Court. 19 A Yes, I can. This is on -- it is an HCO policy 20 letter from PR Series 18 entitled "How to handle black 21 propaganda." 22 Q Now, did you have to demonstrate some proficiency 23 in the contents of this document in order to be in the 24 investigations department? 25 A I had to read it, had to understand it, know what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 65 1 it meant. It required me to know exactly what was on here 2 and be able to identify black propaganda, as such. 3 Q What is black propaganda? 4 A It's ideas that are used to destroy someone's 5 reputation or their belief in something. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move this 7 into evidence as Exhibit Number 151. 8 MR. WEINBERG: The last one? You know, we -- 9 we -- you know, we have the relevance objection. 10 But, I mean, it is interesting when you read 11 it, the black propaganda is propaganda against the 12 Church of Scientology. 13 THE COURT: It will be received. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what we've marked 16 as Exhibit 152 and ask if you can identify this as -- this 17 document for the Court. 18 A This is another HCO policy letter from PR Series 7 19 called black PR. 20 Q In your participation as a member of the 21 investigations division of OSA, are you familiar with black 22 PR being used against people outside the Church? 23 A When you say people outside the Church, what do 24 you mean? 25 THE COURT: Non-Scientologist. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 66 1 A Non-Scientologist? Okay. Yes. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. Can you give us some examples of that, 4 examples you participated in or you are aware people 5 participated in? 6 A Well, information that was gotten on individuals 7 was used -- how it works is this. Intelligence gathers the 8 information, anything that we can get on the individual 9 through different sources. 10 Earlier I talked about ODC. There is also 11 something called CDC, which is covert data collection. And 12 we used private investigators ourselves to gather covert 13 data collection on individuals. 14 For example, we had a private investigator by the 15 name of Margie Delertson (phonetic) who worked for us out of 16 Miami who was gathering covert data for us several different 17 ways. When -- for example, it was ordered one time we 18 needed a D line on an individual. A D line -- 19 THE COURT: Why do I need to know all this? 20 What was the question? 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think what we're doing is 22 we're taking -- through this document, we're going 23 from the overt data collection which we already 24 talked about, this document, if you go down about a 25 third of the way, it says "Intelligence, covert," Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 67 1 and he made the transition into talking about some 2 of the covert investigation that we think is the 3 routine practice of OSA members that they use 4 against people for whatever reasons they think are 5 appropriate. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, there you go, if that is 7 what he's offering this for is routine practice, 8 this man was there, I think the records will show, 9 for less than two years, left in 1991. How is it 10 that he's going to say something that is routine for 11 purposes of being admissible in 2002? 12 THE COURT: I don't know. How many years does 13 it take before it becomes routine if somebody is 14 working there every day? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, it's -- under 16 the rules, it is -- he's way too far removed to be 17 offered for pattern of practice or routine. He is. 18 And I think we submitted a brief on this a long time 19 ago. 20 THE COURT: I don't know -- I'm sorry, but I 21 don't even recall that has come up until today. 22 Maybe it has. Maybe it came up in something else. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I think it did. We submitted 24 something on the rule -- 25 THE COURT: You can understand why I might not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 68 1 remember it. 2 MR. WEINBERG: That is why I can't remember it 3 precisely. But my recollection was it had to do 4 with Rule -- you know -- 404 and 406. 5 MR. MOXON: I can tell you where it came up. 6 It came up in the context -- it came up in the 7 context when we were trying to disqualify 8 Mr. Prince. And there was a lot of case law in the 9 motions we filed -- and I guess that was never 10 really argued at that time -- but with respect to 11 how old the information is upon which someone can 12 base their information. 13 And there was Florida authority and some cases 14 indicating pattern of practice of several months is 15 too old and it is not acceptable for pattern of 16 practice information. But certainly several years 17 is too long. And this gentleman is over ten 18 years -- he has been gone over ten years, and 19 actually only worked in the area he was talking of 20 for several months. Even though he said he was a 21 Scientologist a few years, he only worked there a 22 short time. But ten years is -- is alleged pattern 23 of practice information. 24 THE COURT: You mean before the Church -- I'm 25 sorry, the plaintiffs could find someone they could Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 69 1 use, they would have to find somebody that just left 2 Scientology and was willing to testify, therefore, 3 two days ago? 4 MR. MOXON: No. What I'm -- 5 THE COURT: That was there for the last five 6 years? I mean, these are unusual circumstances, 7 this case. And if you want to talk about covert 8 operations which would be, in essence, undercover 9 operations, operations that you do not want other 10 people to know about -- and I am not being critical 11 of -- of the religion here -- what I'm suggesting is 12 they can't pull somebody from the Church to come in 13 and be a witness about matters that the Church 14 doesn't want people to know if that is accurate. 15 So it would seem they would have to ask 16 somebody to talk about these things to establish a 17 routine if that -- if that is what is appropriate, 18 who has been removed from the Church. 19 Now, the question is, is, you know, do they 20 have to find somebody that has just been removed two 21 days? Or can they find somebody ten years old. 22 Would that be an exception? I don't know. And I 23 don't know that has been briefed. 24 MR. MOXON: Well -- 25 THE COURT: I don't know two years is enough. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 70 1 In other words, I don't know. But it seems like 2 this involves a lot of legal issues. And so I think 3 for the moment I'm going to let it in, and then I'm 4 going to let you-all brief it. 5 MR. MOXON: The point to raise on this, of 6 course, he was never at Flag. He said he was in 7 Miami. He said he spent, I guess, a few weeks in 8 Los Angeles, but he was in Miami working there. He 9 certainly never worked here. 10 But ten years -- to answer your question -- 11 THE COURT: This, of course, comes out of 12 Sussex, which is out of where L. Ron Hubbard wrote 13 his data. It doesn't -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: No, I don't -- it wasn't that 15 policy that the objection had to do with. It was 16 the question where he began to be asked to explain 17 what would happen in regard to covert. 18 THE COURT: Well, this is right on this piece 19 of paper. "Intelligence is covert. PR does best 20 when it begins and ends covertly. Intelligence is 21 best when it begins and ends covertly." 22 I mean, I don't quite understand how that would 23 be Church doctrine because, quite frankly, this is 24 something that anybody would know. I mean, I used 25 to be a lawyer. We had investigators. These are Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 71 1 things that are known by any investigator, whether 2 they work for a church or whether they work for a 3 lawyer. 4 You take offense at this, apparently. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, I don't take offense at 6 what you are saying at all. But I take offense of 7 the juxtaposition and attempted misinterpretation of 8 this church policy with what he's talking about. 9 This church policy is talking about how to 10 defend against black propaganda, which it defines on 11 the last page as an evil. So what he's done is he 12 introduced a policy, then he talked about -- and 13 he's attempting to talk about -- what will be 14 characterized as improper activities and pretend 15 that is an interpretation of this policy. And that 16 is both improper and an evidentiary matter, and also 17 a violation of the First Amendment -- 18 THE COURT: What he's going to say is that 19 black PR was done on Mr. Minton is what he's going 20 to say. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: But this policy -- he made -- 22 if he wants to testify that he has evidence that 23 something called negative propaganda was used 24 against Mr. Minton, let him testify as to that. 25 But to -- but to try to juxtapose this policy, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 72 1 which is an anti-black PR policy, which is calling 2 it an evil, and the purpose of which is how the 3 Church can avoid the kind of black propaganda that, 4 in effect, is the subject of this testimony, except 5 in the public relations area, that is exactly what 6 I'm talking about, that that is a misuse of policy. 7 And the misinterpretation of it in a courtroom -- 8 THE COURT: This man is going to talk about, as 9 I recall, what covert intelligence was. And he 10 worked for the Church. And he's going to tell us 11 what he did. And we're going to listen. 12 And I don't care whether it is part of policy 13 or whether it isn't part of policy. We're going to 14 listen because Mr. Lirot is going to try to connect 15 this up to what he believes occurred to Mr. Minton. 16 That is what this is about. So we're going to 17 listen. 18 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may, I have got some 19 authority here. This exact same argument has been 20 used repeatedly by the Church and it has been 21 rejected repeatedly, and it is a red herring. So I 22 would like to just get this dispensed with briefly. 23 This has been cited -- Judge, this is the case 24 of Allard versus the Church of Scientology. It was 25 Shepardized this morning. It is still good law, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 73 1 cited as recently as this year. 2 If you turn to Page 4, down in the lower -- 3 THE COURT: I tell you what let's do. I know 4 it is ten -- five minutes before afternoon break 5 time. Rather than you-all both trying to tell me 6 what this case says and all that sort of stuff, I'll 7 take a break and I'll try to read it during the 8 break and I'll be more able to listen to your 9 arguments. 10 MR. DANDAR: It involves a Flag banking 11 officer. 12 THE COURT: Well, okay. Let me read it. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, could you give 14 Mr. Oliver, for the first time, the instruction? 15 THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Oliver, you need to 16 understand that when you are on the witness stand -- 17 please -- please be quiet -- when you are on the 18 witness stand, you are not permitted to speak not 19 only with anybody else but -- about the case and 20 what is going on, you are not permitted to talk to 21 anybody, including lawyers, about your testimony. 22 Okay? 23 In other words, up until now you had every 24 right to talk to Mr. Lirot, you had every right to 25 talk to Mr. Dandar, you had every right to talk to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 74 1 these other lawyers. But now, unless I give you 2 permission to, you can't talk to these lawyers about 3 your testimony. Talk to them about the time of 4 day -- 5 THE WITNESS: What we had for lunch. 6 THE COURT: That sort of stuff. Right. 7 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:50 to 3:15 p.m.) 8 _______________________________________ 9 THE COURT: You all go ahead and explain this 10 case to me. 11 MR. LIROT: All right. Well, Judge, 12 essentially what happened was a member of the Church 13 left on, shall we say, less than positive terms. 14 I'm trying to find my copy of it as I prattle 15 on here. Here we go. 16 And apparently there was an allegation made 17 that he had stolen some Swiss francs from the 18 Church's safe. As time went on, the district 19 attorney decided that he would dismiss the case 20 and -- it went to trial and quite a bit came up. 21 But the issue that we had brought up is actually on 22 Page 4. They talked a lot about the evidence. 23 But -- 24 THE COURT: What actually went to trial? A 25 civil trial? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 75 1 MR. LIROT: There was a trial basically on 2 whether or not -- there was -- I think a procedural 3 posture was it was a malicious prosecution, that the 4 Church had no reasonable basis to report that this 5 gentleman had stolen anything. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. LIROT: He took the Church to court. And 8 the whole issue of fair game and other aspects of 9 what was alleged to be policies and beliefs of the 10 Church came up. 11 And on Page 4, Judge, they talk about that 12 particular issue, and they break it down into the 13 different assignments of error. 14 But Number 2 in the lower left-hand column of 15 Page 4, it specifically says: "The procedure and 16 verdict below does not constitute a violation of 17 appellant's First Amendment free exercise of 18 religion." 19 Judge, I'll quote from the case, it is very 20 short. It is just this one page. It said: 21 "Appellant contends that various references to 22 practices of the Church of Scientology were not 23 supported by the evidence, were not legally relevant 24 and were unduly prejudicial. The claim is made it 25 became one of determining the validity of a religion Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 76 1 rather than the commission of a tort. The 2 references to which appellant now objects were to 3 such practices as E-meters, tin cans used as 4 E-meters, the creation of religious doctrine to 5 purportedly get dissidents and insinuations the 6 Church of Scientology was a great money-making 7 business, rather than a religion." 8 Obviously we are not making those arguments. 9 "The principal issue in this trial was one of 10 credibility. If one believed the defendant's 11 witnesses, then there was, indeed, conversion by 12 respondent. However, the opposite result, that 13 reached by the jury, would materially -- would 14 naturally follow --" I'm sorry -- "if one believed 15 the evidence introduced by respondent. Appellant 16 repeatedly argues that the introduction of the 17 policy statements by the Church --" that is what 18 we've done "-- the policy statements of the Church 19 were prejudicial error. However, these policy 20 statements went directly to the issue of 21 credibility. Scientology -- Scientologists were 22 allowed to trick, sue, lie to or destroy enemies. 23 "If, as he claimed, respondent was considered 24 to be an enemy, that policy was, indeed, relevant to 25 the issues of the case. That evidence well supports Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 77 1 the jury's implied conclusion that respondent had 2 not taken the property of the Church, that he had 3 merely attempted to leave the Church with the 4 documents for the Internal Revenue Service and that 5 those witnesses that were Scientologists or had been 6 Scientologists were following the policy of the 7 Church and lying to, suing and attempting to destroy 8 respondent. 9 "Evidence of such policy statements were 10 damaging to appellant but they were entirely 11 relevant. They were not prejudicial. A party whose 12 reprehensible acts are the cause of harm to another 13 and the reason for the lawsuit by another cannot be 14 heard to complain that its conduct is so bad that it 15 should not be disclosed. The relevance of 16 appellant's conduct far outweighs any claim to 17 prejudice." 18 Then they have a footnote. 19 And below that it says, "We find introduction 20 of the --" 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Read the footnote, Mr. Lirot. 22 MR. LIROT: All right. "The trial court gave 23 appellant almost the entire trial within which to 24 produce evidence that the fair game policy had been 25 repealed. Appellant failed to do so and the trial Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 78 1 court thereafter permitted the admission of Exhibit 2 1 into evidence." 3 Judge, we have shown beyond a shadow of a doubt 4 the use of the term "fair game" has been cancelled, 5 but the policies and the ways that the Church deals 6 with suppressive persons is alive and well and has 7 been routine practice since 1969, 1991, and through 8 2002, with Mr. Minton's experience. 9 So fair game may not be the label, but it's the 10 same soap that is new and improved in the package. 11 We don't think we're making any allegations 12 that come within anywhere of a First Amendment 13 complaint. And our policies -- I don't know what 14 religious practice protects the -- the posing of 15 someone's frequent flier mile holder to get 16 information. 17 These are not religious practices, Judge. 18 These may be policies and they are supported by 19 these documents. But we are not tampering with 20 religious practices here; we are looking 21 specifically at alleged wrongdoing and an 22 explanation to support our theory of the case as to 23 why Mr. Minton took the course of conduct he did. 24 THE COURT: You're talking about your theory of 25 this hearing? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 79 1 MR. LIROT: That is correct. 2 THE COURT: Not the theory of the case, the 3 case being wrongful death. 4 MR. LIROT: You have corrected me, yes. 5 Specifically this hearing. And I think this is 6 ancillary to the case. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, Judge. 9 Several points with respect to this. 10 First of all, the footnote, of course, makes it 11 clear that had the evidence -- the policy was not 12 the policy of the Church -- been shown, that it may 13 well have been improper to introduce it. 14 And, of course, if the Court will recall, not 15 only have we introduced the policies saying repeal 16 fair game, but we also introduced Exhibit -- 17 Defendant's Exhibit 209, the policy letter of 18 July 22, 1980, cancellation of fair game, puts that 19 into perspective and explains it. 20 Second, the Court, in Allard -- this case was 21 decided in 1976. And it finds, in the paragraph 22 that begins on the second column of Page 4, there it 23 was proper to introduce this because it went 24 directly to the issue of credibility, i.e., alleging 25 church policies with regard to the issue of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 80 1 credibility. 2 After this decision, the federal rules of 3 evidence were promulgated and adopted in most 4 states, including in Florida. 5 Federal Rule of Evidence 610, which is adopted 6 in Florida as Florida Rule of Evidence 611, states: 7 "Evidence of the beliefs or opinions of a witness on 8 matters of religion is inadmissible to show the 9 witness's credibility is impaired or enhanced 10 thereby." 11 And I have a case -- I only have one copy of it 12 because I didn't think it would come up. It is from 13 the Supreme Court of Ohio in 1994. And it is based 14 on Ohio Rule of Evidence 610, which is the same as 15 Federal Rule of Evidence 610 and Florida Rule of 16 Evidence 611. 17 In that case -- I'm sorry, I'm reading but -- 18 THE COURT: That is all right. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- but the name of the case -- 20 I'll hand it up to your Honor. I only have one 21 copy. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- is Redman versus Watchtower, 24 630 Northeast Second, 676, Ohio, 1994. 25 The case involved a claim of undue influence by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 81 1 the family of a deceased relative contesting a will 2 leaving property to the Jehovah's Witnesses Church. 3 And they were alleging that the deceased was subject 4 to undue influence in leaving his or her money to 5 the Church. 6 And they called an expert witness, an 7 ex-Jehovah's Witness, who wrote a book critical 8 about the religion and who testified the church had 9 policy to encourage members to perjure themselves in 10 order to protect the church and its followers. 11 Sound familiar? 12 This is what the Ohio Supreme Court had to say 13 about that. "Evidence Rule 610 is based on notions 14 of relevancy and unfair prejudice and a goal of 15 avoiding inquiry into areas that bear little nexus 16 to the ultimate issue. When, as here, the witness 17 belongs to a minority sect, and which may or may not 18 be viewed with disdain or misunderstanding, the risk 19 of unfair prejudice is high. 20 "Furthermore, common experience suggests that 21 affiliation with any particular religious belief is 22 not necessarily indicative of a predisposition to 23 testify honestly. Here plaintiff is attempting to 24 show that the witness's religious beliefs were 25 paramount to the oath. This represents a use of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 82 1 religious beliefs expressly prohibited by Evidence 2 Rule 610." 3 And then it cites -- it says the courts of Ohio 4 haven't had many cases on this. But it cites 5 identical federal counterparts and various cases in 6 the federal courts, just reading the next paragraph, 7 in Mallick (phonetic) -- I'll omit the citation -- a 8 Second Circuit, '93, the Court found questions 9 addressed to the witness's affiliation with specific 10 institutions and a religious composition of his 11 accounting clientele to violate 610. The Court saw 12 this as an attempt to show that the witness's 13 character for truthfulness was affected by religious 14 beliefs shared by the plaintiffs. 15 In another recent decision from the Second 16 Circuit the Court held the statement, "Jews aren't 17 supposed to turn other Jews over," end quote, was a 18 clear violation of Rule 610. And then it cites a 19 number of other cases. 20 So that is the law in Florida, your Honor. 21 This may have been the law in California in 1976. I 22 think California has since adopted 610 and it 23 probably isn't the law in California anymore, 24 either. 25 But also in -- in Allard, as I pointed out, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 83 1 there was no -- the Court went out of its way to 2 point out -- for some reason I wasn't around at that 3 time -- they didn't introduce the evidence that fair 4 game was not the policy or no longer the policy of 5 the Church and had been mischaracterized. 6 Moreover -- 7 THE COURT: When was that fair game policy 8 cancelled? 9 MR. WEINBERG: 1968. Then there was that -- 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: But this clarification I'm 11 referring to was 1980. It is Defendant's Number 12 209. And I'll -- I'll hand it up to your Honor, 13 along with the -- with this Ohio case. 14 But I also take my text, if you'll pardon me, 15 to the extent that Allard holds -- and I don't think 16 it holds -- but to the extent that Allard holds that 17 it is permissible under the First Amendment for the 18 Court or the jury or a finder of fact to look at 19 church policies and decide what they mean, I take my 20 text more from the Supreme Court of the United 21 States in Thomas versus Review Board, 450 U.S. 707 - 22 716, 1981. "Courts are not arbiters of scriptural 23 interpretation." 24 And from Presbyterian Church in the Supreme 25 Court of the United States, 393 U.S. 440, "The First Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 84 1 Amendment forbids civil courts from determining 2 matters that the core of religion, the 3 interpretation of particular church doctrines and 4 the importance of those doctrines to their religion. 5 Instead, says the Court, in Serbian Orthodox 6 Diocese, 426 U.S. 696, 1976, about the same time as 7 Allard was decided, "The Courts must defer to the 8 interpretation of religion doctrine made by the 9 religions." 10 That is the law as it applies to the Supreme 11 Court of the United States and in Florida, your 12 Honor. And I wasn't addressing, in terms of policy, 13 the frequent flier thing. I was addressing their 14 introduction and mischaracterization through this 15 witness of this black PR policy, which is a policy 16 of the Church of Scientology. And means the exact 17 opposite of what they are trying to suggest to this 18 Court and trying to have this Court interpret it as. 19 And that is the problem when you start 20 introducing Church policies and throwing them on the 21 record and somehow the Court is supposed to know 22 what they mean. 23 The only entity which can interpret and 24 construe a Church policy is the Church, your Honor. 25 Otherwise, the Court gets into the constitutional Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 85 1 thicket in which it is forced somehow to either 2 agree with the Church or disagree with the Church. 3 And how can a Court disagree with a church as to 4 what a church policy means? 5 THE COURT: Then I guess what you'll have to do 6 is bring somebody in to interpret these documents 7 for us, because if they want to introduce the 8 policy, I guess they can if they think it has some 9 bearing -- 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, the point is your Honor, 11 they can't. 12 THE COURT: Well, they can. I mean, there is 13 nothing in that case you have just read that said 14 there is anything inadmissible about Church policy. 15 What it says is the person to interpret it is the 16 Church itself. 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we have Florida cases which 18 contradict what he just told you. 19 THE COURT: I think what we'll have to do here 20 is this. As we have been doing all along, there has 21 been a lot of policy coming in -- quite frankly, I'm 22 not sure on a lot of these issues this isn't going 23 to be a matter of credibility between Mr. Dandar and 24 Mr. Minton and whether or not the plaintiff, who has 25 the burden of proof, can prove their case. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 86 1 I mean, to me, this may be a great deal more 2 simple, at least in part, than the 30 days of 3 hearings we have had. So, consequently, I may never 4 look or cite or talk about a Church policy at all. 5 But, in any event, I think for now the best 6 thing to do is to let you-all fully brief that. We 7 don't have a jury here. We're not going to endanger 8 anything here by introducing this stuff. I think 9 all this -- I have not heard him interpret this. I 10 think what he was going to tell us is what he did 11 when he did covert intelligence for the Church. 12 That isn't policy. That is basically what he did. 13 Is that it? 14 MR. LIROT: That is it. 15 THE COURT: So -- 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: That wasn't my objection, 17 though, your Honor. My objection was the -- at the 18 same time as he's testifying about that, they 19 introduce this policy, the black PR. And the clear 20 suggestion -- what they are clearly trying to 21 show -- is that -- what he's about to testify to is 22 what he says happened was pursuant to this policy 23 when this policy says black PR is an evil that must 24 be countered. And that is what the policy says. 25 THE COURT: Well, is what you are telling me is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 87 1 if I want to know before I make a decision what this 2 black PR means, that Mr. Reiss will come in and tell 3 us? 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well -- 5 THE COURT: Subject, of course, to 6 cross-examination? 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: The issue, your Honor, really 8 should be -- the policy should not be introduced by 9 opposing party with an attempt to try to put a 10 different interpretation on it. If they want to 11 talk about what happened, what they claim happened, 12 the facts of what happened, what happened with 13 Mr. Minton, let them do it. 14 But for somebody to come in -- Mr. Oliver, who 15 was in a low level -- 16 THE COURT: I understand that, Counsel. I 17 heard your argument. 18 My question is if I want to know what this 19 means -- if I want to know what this policy means, 20 it came from Hubbard Communication Office from 21 Sussex, which is obviously a HCO policy letter -- 22 it's a policy of the Church -- and I want to know 23 what it means, then if what you are suggesting is 24 that I'm bound to rely on what the Church says it 25 means, then somebody from the Church will have to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 88 1 come tell me what that is. 2 So I would suspect if there is anything I want 3 to know the answer to, then you'll provide me -- 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I will provide you with 5 anything you want to know the answer to. 6 THE COURT: All right. Well, for now I may not 7 need some of this stuff and probably don't. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: And we did provide you with 9 Mr. Reiss's explanation -- 10 THE COURT: But his affidavit -- and it was 11 very good and I have read it twice now because -- 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 13 THE COURT: -- because I forgot the first time 14 I read it, it was in conjunction with the criminal 15 case, but it really had more to do with the 16 introspection rundown and sort of a general what is 17 the Church of Scientology, what are the -- 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Precisely. 19 THE COURT: So he didn't tell us anything about 20 what we're talking about in this hearing. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, because we didn't think it 22 was relevant, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: It may not be. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, this is something 25 you really need -- that, upon viewing the policy, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 89 1 you think what we're telling you it means is not 2 correct and you want a definitive Church 3 interpretation, we will provide that to you. 4 THE COURT: All right. But for now, I don't 5 want him interpreting policy. What I understand 6 he's here for, so we don't get into how long he has 7 been in the Church, just what he did as an OSA 8 officer, investigator. 9 MR. LIROT: Precisely. 10 THE COURT: And if he thinks there are any 11 policies that pertain to what he did, and he was 12 told this is the policy, well, then we can introduce 13 it. But I don't want him interpreting it. Okay? 14 MR. LIROT: Very good, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could maybe back up. 17 We were focusing on Exhibit 152. 18 I would like to hand up -- I have a copy for 19 the Court -- what we've marked, to keep the rest of 20 them in order, as Exhibit 151A. I'll give one to 21 the clerk. Judge, I'll hand one up to the Court. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Mr. Oliver, can you tell us what this document is? 24 A These are my notes -- this is a page of my notes 25 that I kept when I was an invest officer in Miami in 1991. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 90 1 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, this does 2 alter the category, if he's working on legal cases 3 and he's stolen documents from legal cases and taken 4 it with him and now, through this ploy from a 5 subpoena, now turning them over here, I mean, that 6 is not proper. It's completely -- I don't know what 7 this means. I have no idea. I have never seen it 8 before. 9 But I know if somebody was working in my office 10 and I have a legal file and they are my associate, 11 they can't just, when they leave my office, copy the 12 legal file, take it with them, and then Mr. Lirot 13 gives them a subpoena and all of a sudden they can 14 introduce it into the record. I mean -- 15 THE COURT: Well, that is my question. Are you 16 suggesting that these are stolen documents, the 17 policies -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: No. This one right here he just 19 handed you up, it is just some notes, he said, when 20 he was a legal officer. It is his notes. 21 THE COURT: I don't have any idea. If it is 22 his notes, then it would seem it would be 23 admissible, not a Church document. They are not a 24 stolen document. 25 MR. WEINBERG: No, that is absolutely not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 91 1 correct. He's working -- hypothetically, whatever 2 his position, it's a low position, he's getting 3 instructions from somebody working with regard to a 4 legal case. All right? That person asks him to do 5 A, B, C and D and he makes some notes and it goes in 6 some legal file. 7 Well, when he decides to leave the Church, he 8 just can't take the legal file with him, just as my 9 associate can't take the legal file. 10 THE COURT: I see what you are saying. I don't 11 know what it is. I can't tell. 12 MR. WEINBERG: He just said, it is his notes. 13 THE COURT: It might be his notes he made when 14 he was -- 15 THE WITNESS: Correct. 16 THE COURT: -- before he came into court today. 17 MR. WEINBERG: No, it has "October 12, 1991" on 18 it. 19 THE COURT: What is this? 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I may. First off, 21 I personally resent being accused of stealing 22 anything because I never stole anything. So 23 anything that I have in my possession was mine. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: Anything I have was given to me Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 92 1 and it was told it was mine. 2 THE COURT: Tell me what this document is. 3 THE WITNESS: These are notes -- 4 THE COURT: There has been lots of allegations 5 thrown around this courtroom that are far, far more 6 serious than that. So don't take offense. 7 THE WITNESS: This is something that I wrote. 8 This is based on a phone call that I received. 9 This is a -- the abbreviation at the top where 10 it says "BP," that stands for battle plan. And 11 battle plan is something that you have every day. 12 You have a battle plan of the things you are 13 supposed to do that are accomplished that day. You 14 set your targets what you are to do, so it is like a 15 "to do" list almost. This is the battle plan for 12 16 October, '91. 17 I notated on here, "Call Margie." Margie is 18 Margie Delertson. She's a retired detective from 19 the North Miami Beach Police Department who worked 20 for the Office of Special Affairs. Specifically, 21 she worked under the direction of Tracy Pase, the 22 DSA invest officer from the Miami org who was my 23 senior. 24 So as I was being trained, Margie was going to 25 be the first PI that I was going to learn how to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 93 1 run, because the Office of Special Affairs runs the 2 PIs. We're the ones that actually execute, prepare 3 them and give them assignments for the duties a 4 private investigator does for the investigations 5 department. There are some things that I did. 6 There are some things the PI did. 7 In this particular case, I was asked to get a D 8 line on an individual. 9 THE COURT: What is a D line? 10 THE WITNESS: A D line is OSA terminology for 11 obtaining information from an individual's garbage. 12 So we would have a private investigator go out after 13 hours and go through someone's garbage to obtain any 14 information in their garbage can and go through it 15 to find anything on that individual on that subject. 16 There were two terms like this that were 17 specifically -- I was specifically instructed by my 18 senior, Tracy Pase, a D line and C line. 19 THE COURT: Now, my question to you, Mr. Lirot, 20 is what is the relevance of these notes? 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I wanted to show what some 22 of the covert practices were, not as part of Church 23 policy, but part of what he participated in as part 24 of the investigative division of OSA, and whether or 25 not that was standard practice as far as the people Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 94 1 he worked with at the time that he worked there. 2 And I'm going to tie those in to the documents 3 that he was provided as part of his training. We're 4 going to have him testify that is basically what 5 they have taught him to do. These are the -- the 6 covert practices utilized by the Church. 7 I don't know what religious tenet allows 8 someone to take someone else's garbage. 9 I understand the objection, but I'm concerned 10 and I think if we can show the standard practice 11 here of these covert operations, I think we have 12 already tied in the issue as far as Mr. Minton being 13 met at the airport every time. 14 Mr. Oliver will testify through these documents 15 and through his own experience that this is how it 16 happens. These are the issues that go on. He's not 17 the only person that does this. And that this is 18 standard operating procedure. 19 THE COURT: Let me ask you now -- now, was this 20 connected to an individual case? 21 MR. LIROT: I don't know. So I would have to 22 ask Mr. Oliver. And I'm not asking for any 23 confidential information. And if it dealt with the 24 litigation, and it is his note, obviously I don't 25 know that the document itself divulges any kind of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 95 1 confidential information or work product. I want to 2 introduce it simply for the D search. 3 THE COURT: Okay. And you are saying this is 4 stolen? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. He had no authorization to 6 take his notes, just as my associate doesn't have 7 any authorization to take his notes. 8 I assume, when it says "Dr. G" at the bottom, 9 that is Dr. Geertz, which is the Fishman case which 10 you heard something about. 11 So he can't just walk in, be in a place -- 12 remember, this is a man that you're going to see 13 from the Lisa McPherson Trust who has a deep bias 14 against the Church now, eleven years later, and has 15 worked actively with all these people that are in 16 the courtroom. So that is what you're going to see. 17 But you can't just walk out, having worked on a 18 case -- you know, having worked on a case, you can't 19 just walk out with a file and say, "They are my 20 notes because I kept them." 21 My associate makes notes all of the time. I 22 use investigators. You saw a few minutes ago 23 Mr. Dandar's investigator was here, Mr. Emmons. You 24 know, when you were in private practice, you used 25 investigators, as well. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 96 1 There has to be some relationship between what 2 we're doing here and -- and what Mr. Oliver is 3 trying to -- to paint. If he can say, "I had some 4 experience with Mr. Minton and Mr. Prince and --" 5 THE COURT: I think that he can talk about what 6 he did, as I said. You will argue the legal -- 7 whether or not he can establish a practice and 8 whether or not he can establish something that then 9 can be used in this case. I doubt if he had 10 anything to do with Mr. Minton, so -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: No, he had something to do with 12 Mr. Minton. He was at LMT. He was picketing with 13 Mr. Minton all over the place. 14 THE COURT: I'm talking about Mr. Minton and 15 any activity, any covert/overt activity that may or 16 may not have happened with Mr. Minton. 17 MR. WEINBERG: He left the Church in 1991. 18 THE COURT: Right. So we can assume he 19 doesn't. So, therefore, I assume this testimony is 20 going to try to establish a pattern. You-all may 21 disagree with the law on that. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 23 THE COURT: Now, if this came from a case, I 24 agree with counsel, I don't think it is admissible, 25 I think it probably would be related to a file. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 97 1 Whether we call it a religious practice or 2 non-religious practice, it was connected to a file, 3 and, therefore -- 4 MR. LIROT: In deference to your concerns and 5 Mr. Weinberg's concerns, I think it served its 6 purpose. I will withdraw it. 7 THE COURT: Okay. I'll give it back. I don't 8 have any question, problem, with you asking him 9 whether he went through garbage cans as part of 10 his -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Can we establish, number one, it 12 came from a lawyer and, number two, it had something 13 to do with litigation? I mean, Mr. Weinberg says it 14 does but -- 15 THE COURT: I don't know whether it came from 16 litigation or not. If it was something that he did 17 as an employee of the Church and had to do with an 18 individual case, I kind of agree. I don't think he 19 just gets to introduce it. I mean, it would be the 20 Church's property. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, if it has to do with 22 litigation. 23 THE COURT: Well, it has a name on there. And 24 I'm trying not to get into the name because that 25 would be part of the -- I guess this would be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 98 1 confidential. 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, Mr. Weinberg just said a 3 name, and maybe the witness is the only one 4 competent enough to tell us if that is true. 5 THE COURT: I don't want anything more about 6 that piece of paper right now. I'm not interested 7 in hearing about it. I think it may well be 8 something confidential that belongs -- or belonged 9 within the confines of the Church's confidence and, 10 therefore, we should not be talking about it here. 11 I do not care if he talks about what he did as 12 a matter of practice while he was an investigator 13 with the Church of Scientology. Whether he can 14 establish a practice that becomes admissible, 15 therefore, and is of some evidentiary value in this 16 case, that is a legal argument which we'll make. 17 MR. DANDAR: Keep in mind that Mr. Weinberg 18 introduced into evidence my confidential documents 19 to Stacy Brooks, over my objection. And when he 20 does that, I agree with him, that is highly 21 improper. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, excuse me, but -- 23 THE COURT: I don't need -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, as far as -- as far as 25 your last statement, your Honor, it would not be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 99 1 proper for Mr. Oliver to speak about -- in any 2 detail about what he did with regard to a case to a 3 particular -- 4 THE COURT: I disagree with you, Counselor. 5 You may state that without telling us what case. 6 When he was with the Church and as an investigator, 7 he can tell us the types of things that he did. 8 MR. WEINBERG: No, that is different. But 9 what -- what you said, you probably didn't mean it, 10 is that he can discuss what he did on a particular 11 case. 12 THE COURT: Only if it is this case. I said -- 13 I thought I made it real clear. We are going to see 14 if he can establish a pattern. 15 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 16 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 17 THE COURT: And whether or not a pattern is 18 relevant that could be used as evidence in this 19 case. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 21 THE COURT: I don't know, I'll let you-all 22 argue that legally later. 23 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q What is a D line? Picking up somebody's garbage? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 100 1 What is the full sequence of a D line act? 2 A The person -- the private investigator's contact 3 in this case -- in this case it would have been Margie 4 Delertson -- and she would have been told who the subject 5 was, the address, and how many times that it needed to be 6 done. 7 THE COURT: She would have been told to go get 8 a certain person's garbage and go through it. And 9 what would she be looking for? 10 THE WITNESS: Anything and everything that 11 could be of intelligence value to the Office of 12 Special Affairs. It could be anything. It could be 13 a receipt that she bought or rented a videotape, 14 maybe an adult video. Anything that they could 15 find. Anything of value from an intelligence 16 standpoint. 17 THE COURT: And she would be told how many 18 times she was to go through somebody's garbage? 19 THE WITNESS: Correct. 20 THE COURT: And she would be given the name of 21 that person? Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: And paid for that, as well. 23 THE COURT: And she would be a special 24 investigator? Private investigator? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. We use private Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 101 1 investigators for certain things. Other things, 2 they sent me out to do. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to draw your attention back to 6 Exhibit Number 152, PR Series 7 black PR. And on the back 7 of the first page, in the middle -- a little above the 8 middle, it has the title "Black Propaganda." 9 THE COURT: Are you talking about 152? 10 MR. LIROT: 152. It is two pages but it is a 11 two-sided copy. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q On the back of the first page, three paragraphs 14 up, it says: "The dead agent caper was used to disprove --" 15 what is a dead agent caper? 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, the witness is 17 interpreting the policy. 18 THE COURT: That is in quotes. I assume, 19 therefore -- it is in quotes and, therefore, it is 20 not a policy, it is something a -- if it is 21 something in quotes, it is -- somebody should be 22 able to tell us what it is. Overruled. 23 A A dead agent caper is something that you are 24 tasked to do, to go out and dead agent an individual by -- 25 by "dead agent" means to neutralize the individual in some Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 102 1 way. I participated in DA capers. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What would that entail? 4 A I was sent out, for example, to a library in south 5 Dade in 1990 to do a DA caper on a man named Sandy -- 6 THE COURT: We don't want to hear specifics. 7 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 8 THE COURT: I don't want to hear specifics. 9 Give us an example of what a dead agent caper is. 10 A I was sent out to -- 11 THE COURT: Well, you are obviously having 12 trouble with this. 13 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 14 THE COURT: I don't want to know "I was sent 15 out in south Miami to do such and such with 16 Mr. So-and-so." 17 A dead agent caper would be like going to a 18 library and doing -- 19 A I got it. Like going to someplace where a critic 20 of Scientology may be speaking and either disrupting the 21 meeting in some way, or handing out literature that would 22 be -- put the person speaking in some sort of disrepute or 23 to attack the person in some other way based on what they 24 are saying and trying to neutralize that person in front of 25 whatever audience they had getting any attention for what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 103 1 this person was saying that was antagonistic or against 2 Scientology. That would be a DA caper. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Would it -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is not what the policy 6 says it is. I just want to point that out. 7 MR. DANDAR: Let them do that on 8 cross-examination. We'll be here three days. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: But it is a violation -- 10 THE COURT: He's not talking about policy. 11 That should make you happy. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Would the passing out of fliers and things like 15 that be part of a DA caper? 16 A Yes, it would. If the fliers had something 17 negative to say about the person they were trying to DA, 18 yes. 19 Q So something talking about Mr. Minton saying that 20 he was a thief and took money from Nigeria, would that be 21 part of a DA caper? 22 A Sure. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 24 Number 152 into evidence. 25 THE COURT: Again, PR is what? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 104 1 THE WITNESS: "Public relations." 2 THE COURT: Public relations is overt. 3 Intelligence is covert. Public relations in the 4 standard sense means what? I mean, what, to you as 5 an intelligence -- or an as investigator in the 6 Church of Scientology, what does public relations 7 mean? 8 THE WITNESS: Public relations is the -- the 9 information that is put out to the public that puts 10 the organization in a good light. 11 For example, if certain documents -- a document 12 or flier or something is created that talks about 13 maybe good things that the organization did, that 14 would be handed out to, let's say, opinion leaders. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 THE WITNESS: That would be putting out good 17 PR. 18 THE COURT: Let me ask you a different 19 question. Investigate noisily. 20 THE WITNESS: A noisy investigation. 21 THE COURT: A noisy investigation. Forget 22 about dead agent capers. Investigate noisily, would 23 that also include handing out fliers about a person 24 which might not have complimentary matters on it? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would. It could be going Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 105 1 to somebody's -- knocking on some landlord's door 2 and saying, "We're investigating so-and-so for 3 robbing a bank," whatever, you know. And -- it is 4 just -- 5 THE COURT: The person -- 6 THE WITNESS: The person you are trying to DA. 7 THE COURT: Would it matter whether that was 8 true or not? 9 THE WITNESS: No. Not at all. 10 THE COURT: In other words, if you are 11 investigating somebody, you can tell somebody you 12 are investigating them for something which may have 13 some basis in fact or may have no basis in fact? 14 THE WITNESS: Correct, they can send an 15 investigator out to someone's door with a photograph 16 of a little boy and -- with the subject and say, 17 "Have you seen this man with this little boy," and 18 infer there is something there. Even though the 19 answer is, "No, I haven't," you know, that may be 20 the answer, but the seed that is planted in the 21 person's mind when you are asking the question to, 22 that is enough to damage some people's reputation if 23 that is the goal. 24 THE COURT: And that could be considered 25 investigate noisily? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 106 1 THE WITNESS: That could be considered 2 investigate noisily. 3 THE COURT: Are you saying that is also 4 considered a dead agent caper? 5 THE WITNESS: It could be viewed that way. But 6 a dead agent caper, at least the way that I had -- 7 I'm familiar with it, would be as I explained in my 8 example of going someplace where someone was 9 speaking publicly. 10 THE COURT: Okay. But investigating noisily 11 is -- is that that I just said? 12 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. Correct. 13 THE COURT: Go ahead. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what has been marked as 16 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 153 and ask if you can identify 17 that document for the Court. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I think Mr. Prince put this one 19 in evidence. 20 A Yes, this is a -- 21 THE COURT: Wait a second. When you hear 22 somebody say "objection" -- 23 THE WITNESS: I didn't hear him say it. I'm 24 sorry. 25 THE COURT: -- just wait until I do something. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 107 1 I think that is right. Do you remember, 2 Mr. Dandar, whether this was introduced? 3 MR. LIROT: It is the HCO policy letter of 25 4 April, 1968. 5 THE COURT: I think it is in evidence. 6 However, Madam Clerk, here is what we're talking 7 about. 8 MR. DANDAR: Here. I'll give it to her. 9 THE COURT: Check and see if that is already in 10 evidence. If it is, would you please give us the 11 number. In the meantime, for the record, we will 12 use 153. And then -- 13 MR. LIROT: We'll replace it when it is 14 identified. 15 MR. WEINBERG: I think it is 109B. 16 MR. DANDAR: It is 113 -- nope. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Try 109. 18 THE COURT: Try 109B. 19 MR. DANDAR: No. It is actually 113. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Close. It might be in twice. 21 It might be 109B, too. 22 THE COURT: So it is also 113? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Then we'll change 153 to 113. It 25 is already in evidence -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 108 1 MR. LIROT: Twice. Thank you, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Okay. But he can look at it. 3 Change it so he knows he's looking at 113. 4 MR. LIROT: (To the witness) Did you note on 5 that document that is Exhibit 113? 6 Judge, if it wasn't introduced, I'll move it 7 into evidence after he identified it. 8 THE COURT: Well, it was introduced. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: It is in evidence, yes. 11 MR. LIROT: It is in evidence? 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q The Judge asked you about the noisy 14 investigations, whether or not it mattered whether the 15 questions were true or not. I guess right under Number 3 it 16 says "prosecute" on that. 17 Did you -- were you required to review this 18 document as part of your Pac? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Part of the investigative decision? 21 A Yes. 22 Q What is it they asked you about that particular 23 paragraph, what your ability to embrace that paragraph was? 24 THE COURT: What paragraph? 25 MR. LIROT: Right under Number 3, "Prosecute," Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 109 1 a little lower than the top half, it says: "The 2 standard actions of intelligence are that --" and 3 then it has 1, 2 and 3. 4 A The standard actions of intelligence is what you 5 are asking me about? 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Yes. Number 3. 8 A It says "Prosecute." 9 Q Okay. And below that, what was explained to you 10 the meaning of that particular statement in your training? 11 A Mmm, never defend. Always attack. That is the -- 12 that is what is done. 13 Q Did anybody explain to you what -- it says the 14 point is even if you don't have enough data to win the case, 15 still attack loudly? 16 A Correct. 17 Q All right. Was that something that they tested 18 you to make sure you were familiar with that concept? 19 A They -- I was checked out on this policy, I 20 believe. And at the time it was very, very fresh in my mind 21 because I was -- Mmm, that is what I was doing at the time. 22 I was -- it was very proactive, the type of activities I was 23 involved in. 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, that one has already been 25 moved in. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 110 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q I'm going to hand you what has been marked as 3 Plaintiff's Exhibit 154 and ask if you could describe this 4 document to the Court. 5 A This is a HCO policy letter, "Security risks, 6 infiltration." This is a policy letter to -- you know, 7 making the individual reading the policy letter aware of the 8 concern for individuals infiltrating the organizations. And 9 it speaks -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, I mean, is he 11 going to interpret it? 12 THE COURT: You know, I don't quite understand 13 why you -- this is a man that was trained, given 14 training -- why he can't interpret it. This was a 15 man asked to do a job in the Church. And based on 16 the job he was asked to do, he was given documents, 17 he was tested on these documents to see if he 18 understands these documents, and now he wants to 19 tell us what he was told. And we get an objection 20 saying he can't do it, only somebody from within the 21 Church. 22 MR. WEINBERG: This one he said he probably 23 was, he didn't even remember. 24 But my -- but what I -- I mean, we could go on, 25 I suppose, forever. But the point is the document Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 111 1 is the document. And -- 2 THE COURT: That is true. But to some extent 3 there may be some need for me to understand. I 4 don't understand. I mean, I have learned a lot. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, our position is 6 this man can't -- shouldn't be explaining to you 7 what Scientology policies and -- 8 THE COURT: I understand. I think he can 9 explain to me what he was taught when he took a 10 course and was handed this. 11 MR. WEINBERG: That is different. 12 THE COURT: So you may ask him that in that 13 vein. 14 MR. WEINBERG: What he was told? 15 THE COURT: What he was told. 16 MR. LIROT: Told. Taught. 17 THE COURT: By another Scientologist. 18 MR. LIROT: Had to be checked off on his 19 handling. Apparently there is a checklist. They 20 have these identified specifically. You have 21 to show some understanding before you can be 22 accredited -- before he can be part of this arm of 23 the organization. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Mr. Oliver, do you recognize this document? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 112 1 A Yes. This is part of my hat pack, your Honor. 2 How it works is this. You read the document. You have the 3 check sheet and it says to read X policy letter. You take 4 the policy letter. You read it. You read it for 5 understanding. You check any misunderstood words you have. 6 Another individual in the same academy or someone 7 that is assigned to you, if they say, "You go check out with 8 this person," I put the policy in front of me, they ask me 9 questions about it. Once they determine that yes, I know 10 what it means, that is it. There is nothing else beyond 11 that. There is no classroom instruction, there is no -- if 12 once I say and it is determined that I understand it and my 13 initials are on the check sheet and I have read the policy 14 letter, that is it. I mean, to my understanding -- you 15 know -- 16 THE COURT: I -- 17 A The organization is buildings. People are what 18 interpret policy. So that is what policy is. And if 19 someone didn't have an understanding of something, I could 20 easily point out a particular piece of policy and say, 21 "There is a policy on that. Read the policy." 22 THE COURT: Okay. What question is it you have 23 for him on this? 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, I want to understand what it 25 meant in the fourth paragraph down that starts with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 113 1 Form 7A and 7B, the third line of that paragraph 2 says: "To the increased reality in some cases, it 3 may be necessary to substitute 'Committing bad 4 things to' rather than 'consider committing overts 5 against.'" 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q What does that mean? 8 MR. WEINBERG: That is -- therein lies the 9 problem. You could read it and you can draw your 10 own interpretation from it. Apparently the way -- 11 the way it is done, he read it and -- and drew an 12 interpretation from it. But -- 13 THE COURT: That is all he's going to tell us. 14 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. What Mr. Lirot's 15 question was, what does that mean, as if that is 16 the -- you know, that is the final word. 17 THE COURT: You-all get so upset when 18 somebody -- someone talks about what was written by 19 Mr. Hubbard. He's going to testify what he thought 20 it meant. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I don't understand what that 22 means to this hearing, but that is a lot different 23 than the question Mr. Lirot asked, which is "What 24 does that mean?" 25 MR. LIROT: I would assume, Judge, since the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 114 1 tech is perfect, it must mean the same thing to 2 everyone that read it. 3 THE COURT: You don't need to get into that. 4 What does that mean to you, sir? 5 A What that means to me is that the bulletin is 6 basically saying to substitute one particular phrase at the 7 beginning of someone's auditing with another phrase. 8 The phrase being asked to be substituted is 9 substitute "consider committing bad things to," rather than 10 "consider committing overts against." 11 What it is saying, instead of using the command 12 "consider committing overts against," "consider committing 13 bad things to," because I know the definition of the word 14 "consider committing bad things to," rather than "consider 15 committing overts again" and substitute. 16 I know the definition of all those words. So 17 because of that, I have an understanding of what this means. 18 Now, I am not a trained auditor. But I still know what this 19 means and -- 20 THE COURT: But this is an auditing command, is 21 that right? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: It would have no bearing in this 24 case because Mr. Minton was not audited. 25 THE WITNESS: Right. However, this -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 115 1 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. 2 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 3 THE COURT: Isn't that true, Mr. Lirot? 4 MR. LIROT: I'm interested -- if this deals 5 with auditing, then I'm not interested in this. I 6 didn't understand it. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Now I understand enough to 8 know that it has nothing to do with this case -- or 9 it had nothing to do with whatever it is you say you 10 are introducing this for, which is what might have 11 happened to Mr. Minton. 12 THE WITNESS: It was part of my training. So I 13 had to be familiar -- 14 THE COURT: You I don't need to hear from 15 anymore on this. 16 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 17 MR. LIROT: Fair enough, Judge. We'll move 18 along. 19 THE COURT: Trust me. We've been at this 30 20 days. You are just a tiny little part of this. 21 THE WITNESS: Thank God. 22 THE COURT: So I don't -- when I say I don't 23 need to hear from you on this, trust me, I know what 24 I'm doing a little here. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 116 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q I'll hand you a document marked Plaintiff's 3 Exhibit 155 and ask if you can explain that document. 4 A This is an HCO policy letter entitled "Corrupt 5 Activities." And it was part of my OSA hat pack. 6 Q This one says, "Corrupt activities of a few 7 deprived many of their pay." 8 Were you aware of where people were actually 9 denied -- 10 THE COURT: Excuse me, if you're going to read 11 from something and you want me to follow, you'll 12 have to tell me where you are reading from, 13 because -- 14 MR. LIROT: Very good. I'm sorry, Judge. I'm 15 moving too fast for both of us, actually. "Corrupt 16 Activities." Then there is a reference line. 17 THE COURT: Just give me paragraph. 18 MR. LIROT: Actually, the first text paragraph, 19 "The corrupt activities of a few deprive many of 20 their pay." 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q This also was one of the documents that you had to 23 familiarize yourself with as part of your hat pack? 24 A Correct. 25 Q Did you ever know of any situations where people's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 117 1 pay was withheld or reduced because of some things that 2 other people had done? 3 THE COURT: And what would that have to do with 4 this case, Counsel? I mean, some of this just -- I 5 mean, you have to tie it in to whatever it is that 6 is going on in this hearing. 7 MR. LIROT: All right. Judge, I just want to 8 introduce it as part of the hat pack then. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. LIROT: I move 155 into evidence. 11 MR. WEINBERG: My silence -- obviously this has 12 to do with a staff member, not Mr. Minton. 13 THE COURT: I am waiting to see the relevance 14 here, but I'm going to give some latitude here. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think your wait is over. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q I'll hand you a document marked as Exhibit Number 18 156. Can you identify that document for the Court? 19 A Yes. It's an HCO policy letter dated 16 February, 20 1969 called "Targets defense." 21 Q Did you review this document as part of your hat 22 pack requirement? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What is a target in the context of this particular 25 document? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 118 1 A Target is an individual that is named as the 2 subject. The individual that an action is to be taken upon. 3 Q All right. And I think that there is a long list 4 of -- on the back of Page 1, it talks about, "Vital targets 5 which we --" and I would assume that is the investigative 6 arm of OSA, we, "The vital targets on which we must invest 7 most of our time are," if you could just review those -- 8 THE COURT: I think that would be a bad 9 assumption, Counselor. This is a policy letter with 10 distribution to OSA, PRs, and "we," I would guess, 11 could mean "we" the Church -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Exactly right, your Honor. 13 THE WITNESS: Well -- 14 THE COURT: So I don't think you need to limit 15 the "we" necessarily in here to a group. Okay? 16 MR. LIROT: Fair enough, Judge. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 MR. LIROT: Obviously, the question -- I have 19 only identified him as being a member of OSA. I 20 guess it does, also, because of the distribution -- 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Do you know what "IMEC" is? 23 A Yes. 24 Q What is that? 25 A International Management Executive Committee. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 119 1 That is senior executive management of the Church of 2 Scientology. 3 Q And PRs? 4 A PRs. That would be people involved in the PR 5 division of the organization. 6 THE COURT: Public relations? 7 THE WITNESS: Correct. Only those individuals 8 would have access to that. Not the general -- 9 THE COURT: And management, I take it? 10 THE WITNESS: International management. 11 THE COURT: Is that Int? 12 THE WITNESS: Int. Yes. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q You heard Mr. Lieberman talk about the black 16 propaganda as being something that the Church uses to defend 17 itself -- 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is not what I said, 19 Mr. Lirot. 20 THE COURT: Well -- 21 MR. LIROT: The record will speak for itself. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Based on your understanding of this document, is 25 your participation with the Church based on defensive Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 120 1 tactics? 2 A No. 3 MR. WEINBERG: What? 4 A Offensive tactics. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q And did you familiarize yourself, on the front 7 page there, with Items 1 through 9? 8 A Yes, I did. They speak of errors that had been 9 made in the past. And that is what this policy letter is 10 talking about, what to do based on mistakes of the past, 11 what to do at this particular time that it was written. 12 And that goes on, on the second page, the vital 13 targets you spoke of earlier. And these are T1 through T7. 14 Q Does the "T" stand for target, I guess? 15 A Target 1. 16 Q All right. What is it that they have directed you 17 to do or be familiar with your obligation and responsibility 18 with as far as being accredited as a member of the 19 investigative arm of OSA? 20 A The activities and the assignments given to me 21 could be referenced back to policy letters as to the why 22 behind a certain action or activity that I was assigned to, 23 or that investigators below me were assigned to, or 24 investigators working next to me or above me were assigned 25 to. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 121 1 This basically aligns an action with the policy so 2 that there is some understanding as to why an action was 3 done. An action is just done because somebody feels like 4 doing something, saying, "Hey, go do that"? No, it has to 5 conform to policy. And this is the policy that puts into 6 perspective the activity. 7 Q Were you ever assigned a task that in your 8 understanding would require you to depopularize the enemy to 9 a point of obliteration? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Can you give me an example of that, in general 12 terms I think the Judge indicated she would like to hear the 13 answers in. 14 A In a general term, not a specific -- 15 THE COURT: Right, because we don't want to 16 hear about a person. 17 A Not as a person. An organization -- 18 THE COURT: I mean, I don't want you to name -- 19 we don't want to have stuff in our record that would 20 hurt any person. Okay? 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. How about an organization 22 that doesn't exist anymore? 23 THE COURT: That is fine. 24 THE WITNESS: That is fine? Okay. 25 A In July, part of August of 1991, I was sent to Los Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 122 1 Angeles to assist in the formation of a can unit whose 2 stated -- the stated purpose of me going to Los Angeles was 3 to bring about the destruction of the Cult Awareness Network 4 and depopularizing the enemy to the point of obliteration. 5 T1 falls in line with what happened to the Cult 6 Awareness Network and the activities I participated in. 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 8 Number 156 into evidence. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been 12 marked as Exhibit Number 157 and ask you to identify that 13 document for the Court. 14 A This is an HCO policy letter of 16 February, 1969. 15 The title is "Battle Tactics." 16 Q And is this another document that you had to 17 familiarize yourself with and embrace as part of your hat 18 checklist? 19 A Yes. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, on that basis alone I would 21 just like to move that document into evidence, 22 Exhibit 157. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 123 1 marked as Exhibit 158. 2 MR. DANDAR: Here it is, 158. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Can you identify this document for the Court? 5 A Yes. Yes. I can. This is an HCO policy letter 6 of 17 February, 1966, "Public Investigation Section." 7 Q All right. What is the Public Investigation 8 Section? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, what is the question? 10 THE COURT: What is the Public Investigation 11 Section? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, as I understand it, there 13 is no Public Investigation Section anymore in that 14 name, so is he asking -- 15 THE COURT: What was the Public Investigation 16 Section? 17 MR. WEINBERG: You mean -- well, I guess it is 18 whatever this document says. 19 MR. DANDAR: I object to counsel testifying. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 21 THE COURT: Sustained. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Help us clear up the confusion on this document, 24 if you will, Mr. Oliver. 25 A Mr. Weinberg may be right. But this document is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 124 1 still part of the hat pack that was given to me. And 2 whether the -- whether something still exists or not in the 3 policy, if it is on a check sheet, you still have to know 4 what it means. You still have to look it up. You still 5 have to know what it means, even if it is not there any 6 longer. 7 This -- this particular policy letter speaks about 8 a section that did exist and what its functions were at the 9 time it was in existence. And it is included in the hat 10 pack because it was written by LRH. And it needs to be in 11 the hat pack because the information within it is still 12 applicable in the area I was still involved in, which is the 13 Office of Special Affairs. So that is why this is even here 14 in front of us. 15 Q The last paragraph on that page refers to the 16 statistic of the section. If you would read that paragraph 17 for the record and just tell me if that statistic -- I think 18 you already testified the statistics are how you base your 19 performance. 20 A Correct. 21 Q Read that for the record and tell me if that 22 statistic analysis is still -- was still valid when you were 23 operational at the investigative department. 24 A The statistic -- read it out loud? 25 Q Certainly. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 125 1 A "The statistics of the section is dual, consisting 2 of the number of cases successfully investigated --" 3 THE COURT: Don't read it too fast. My court 4 reporter is taking this all down. 5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 6 A "-- successfully investigated on specific 7 projects, and the number of derogatory news stories 8 appearing that week relating to enemies of Scientology 9 related to a specific project. The statistic of each 10 individual investigator is the number of cases personally 11 investigated to a complete useful report. These are 12 reported to the HCO advisory committee and graphed each 13 week. Production of the section is the number of cases in a 14 project process." 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q When you were in OSA, was it still a stat that 17 they counted if you were able to get derogatory news stories 18 published on enemies of Scientology? 19 A Yes. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 21 Number 158 into evidence. 22 THE COURT: As part of the hat pack? 23 MR. LIROT: That is correct. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 126 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q I'll hand you what we marked as Exhibit Number 159 3 and ask you to identify that document for the Court. 4 A HCO policy letter of 1 September, 1969, 5 "Counterespionage." 6 Q Was this one of the documents you were supposed to 7 be familiar with as part of your accreditation in the 8 investigative arm of OSA? 9 A Yes. It was part of my hat pack. 10 Q What was your understanding of this document? Why 11 was this -- why was this important to be familiar with in 12 your responsibilities? 13 A Mmm, again, this was a policy that was written to 14 instruct, as well as to look out for, the activity. 15 In many of the policies that I have read, both the 16 activity and the counter of the activity are included. That 17 information is included in the policy letter itself. 18 Basically what to look out for and how it's done in order to 19 understand what you are looking out for, you have got to 20 know how it is done. So it is explained this way, but at 21 the same time, since it is being explained on how it is 22 done, it can also be used against an identified target. 23 Q And I think they talk about financial problems and 24 espionage in the corporate world and espionage against 25 governmental agencies? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 127 1 A Correct. Uh-huh. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 3 159 into evidence. 4 THE COURT: I have a question here for you. 5 Maybe I can cut to the chase here a little bit. 6 Are you suggesting that the basis for this 7 being admitted is to give some validity to the 8 allegation by both Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks that 9 Mr. Minton was harassed in accordance with the 10 harassment time line? 11 MR. LIROT: That is exactly the basis -- 12 THE COURT: Well, that really hasn't been 13 challenged by anyone. Has it? 14 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think in order to -- 15 obviously we want to bring forward as much relevant 16 evidence to support that as we can. I don't know 17 what this Court's level of familiarity with what we 18 find to be routine practices is. But we want to be 19 able to establish that this is not some isolated 20 event, that clearly this is something that has been 21 going on for a while and that, you know, clearly if 22 that was the explanation for why Mr. Minton had done 23 something, which certainly is what we allege is the 24 reason he changed his position, we -- 25 THE COURT: Well, that is really very Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 128 1 preliminary. The way I look at this, if I can -- it 2 is probably too late in the day for me to even think 3 about talking about it, I'll have to come back and 4 undo it all tomorrow -- but Mr. Minton testified, 5 Ms. Brooks testified, in a time line of harassment, 6 that is what they called it, time line of something. 7 It was introduced. 8 What Mr. Minton testified to was that, indeed, 9 these things happened. 10 Now, of course what has been played -- I don't 11 know if you were here yesterday -- is some of the 12 things on the time line may not have been quite as 13 disastrous as they might have looked to somebody 14 just reading them. In one instance, he was right 15 there participating as he was being sort of 16 picketed, and it looked like he was having more fun 17 than the picketers. So it would be doubtful if that 18 was harassment. 19 But other than that, there really hasn't been 20 any testimony introduced to suggest some of these 21 things did not happen. And so -- but that is 22 preliminary. In other words, those are the things 23 that were happening when Mr. Minton presumably was 24 an anti-Scientologist. Right? 25 MR. LIROT: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 129 1 THE COURT: He says they happened. Ms. Brooks 2 said they happened. And nobody has come in and 3 testified they didn't happen. 4 MR. LIROT: It's what nobody has testified to 5 that did happen that serves as the basis for why 6 this is very relevant. We think -- obviously, 7 Judge, I'll be very candid with the Court, 8 circumstantially we have Mr. Minton saying, "Well, 9 the only reason I did this was because --" 10 THE COURT: Did what? Did what? 11 MR. LIROT: Changed his position. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. LIROT: "I changed my position so I 14 wouldn't go to jail for contempt, and I want to come 15 clean, I want to set the record straight." Clearly, 16 the Court is familiar with that testimony. 17 THE COURT: Right. 18 MR. LIROT: We've heard about the time line. 19 We've read the notes from Mr. Jonas and Mr. Rosen 20 and Ms. Yingling. 21 So circumstantially, I think we're putting 22 together an explanation for something far and away 23 different than I think what was testified to at 24 least by the defense witnesses as the explanation 25 for why we have this change of position. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 130 1 We feel that we're able to show, at least 2 through circumstantial evidence that all points to 3 the center of our argument, that this is not what it 4 has been presented to this Court as being. And that 5 Mr. Minton was not concerned one wit about being in 6 trouble for contempt or any of those other things. 7 And I think -- 8 THE COURT: Well -- 9 MR. LIROT: -- one of the very first days -- 10 and I don't want to prattle and I don't want to be 11 chastised about it -- 12 THE COURT: Too late. 13 What I am suggesting, and that is why I was 14 asking, if this is being put into evidence to 15 establish what Mr. Minton said and what Ms. Brooks' 16 time line basically of harassment, the things that 17 she said happened that caused Mr. Minton to be 18 disturbed, which he said he was, whether they 19 happened or not, or whether there is some truth 20 behind that. 21 If that is the purpose, all I was suggesting to 22 you is that thus far the only thing Mr. Minton has 23 suggested maybe wasn't true was the fact that when 24 he and Mr. Rinder were talking, Mr. Rinder said -- 25 granted it is hearsay -- but Mr. Rinder said they Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 131 1 were not involved in the surveillance or whatever of 2 his children. Other than that, he didn't back off 3 of that. 4 So I guess what I'm saying, if that is the 5 purpose, I don't know if you need it until there -- 6 see what I'm saying? 7 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. Candidly, it 8 corroborates that. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. LIROT: It doesn't need to be corroborated, 11 nobody challenged it. But -- it also corroborates 12 our theory, but it goes beyond that. And I think in 13 order for this Court to have a full and fair 14 understanding -- 15 THE COURT: I mean, I do remember the lawyer 16 said just because we let it in doesn't mean we agree 17 with it, but the truth of the matter is that if 18 Stacy Brooks testified that it is correct, and that 19 was her time line, and that is what it was, and 20 nobody comes in to say that it isn't correct, that 21 is what is known as uncontroverted evidence. 22 MR. LIROT: Right. 23 THE COURT: So, consequently, I mean, they have 24 to know that, too. And they've rested. So -- 25 MR. LIROT: Understood. And I'm not trying to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 132 1 be cumulative, Judge. And I didn't mean to 2 interrupt. 3 THE COURT: Well, go on ahead. I guess what 4 I'm saying is you may not have to go to all of the 5 length to explain everything; you may just want to 6 introduce it and use it in your closing argument as 7 to the relevance. 8 Whatever it is you need him to explain, that is 9 fine. Go on ahead and do that. But -- 10 MR. LIROT: I tell you what, Judge, if I could 11 beg the court's indulgence, if I could review this 12 with Mr. Dandar and maybe take five minutes, I might 13 be able to introduce most of this just based on 14 authentication, save the Court a lot of time, and 15 try to finish at least our portion of Mr. Oliver 16 today. 17 THE COURT: You can certainly do that. 18 MR. LIROT: Is that all right? 19 THE COURT: Sure. In other words, why don't 20 you-all take a look at it. I don't mind quitting 21 early for today. 22 MR. LIROT: It wouldn't break my heart, Judge. 23 THE COURT: If you want to just stop, and if 24 you-all take a look at that and see what, out of 25 this stuff, you really feel you need to have some Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 133 1 explanation and what is it you just want in so you 2 can use it in your closing argument. 3 I'm counting on both sides having a long time 4 to -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 6 THE COURT: -- put together -- I mean, this is 7 a huge hearing. 8 MR. WEINBERG: We'll need a long time. 9 THE COURT: Once it is in, you can use it and 10 what have you. I'm trying to take everything that 11 gets admitted home and read it. 12 MR. LIROT: Certainly. 13 THE COURT: I read through practically an 14 80-something-page affidavit last night that looked 15 fairly familiar. I kept thinking, "I think I have 16 seen this, I think this is familiar." Then finally 17 today I was able to find out that I had read it. 18 So even though I have read this stuff, every 19 night diligently I try to read everything -- I'm 20 right now reading Mr. Miscavige's affidavit that was 21 introduced yesterday that -- I didn't take it home 22 because I knew that I had not caught up with the 23 night before. 24 But you guys -- I mean, just look at the stuff 25 you have introduced already, which may or may not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 134 1 have relevance. But, I mean, so you guys will have 2 to pull this together. So just asking him what does 3 this mean -- 4 MR. LIROT: I understand. 5 THE COURT: -- and thinking that I'm going to 6 be able to -- if you have a smoking gun, for 7 heaven's sakes, go on ahead and do it, both sides. 8 You know what I mean? But if you are just getting 9 this stuff into evidence so you can refer to it for 10 your theory, get it in and use it however you want 11 to in your closing argument. 12 MR. LIROT: All right, Judge. 13 THE COURT: You see what I'm saying? 14 MR. LIROT: Excellent. 15 THE COURT: Okay. And that, of course, goes 16 for both sides. If you have something that, you 17 know, I hear and I'll remember it for days and days. 18 But having him explain whatever he just explained to 19 on this, it's gone. You know, it will come back 20 when you refer me to the document, Document 159 -- 21 MR. LIROT: I understand the Court's -- the 22 Court's wishes. 23 THE COURT: Let's do that. Let's go on ahead 24 and take a little break. Now, what I'm going to 25 say, he hardly testified to anything that is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 135 1 anything. So if -- and they are going through these 2 documents, if they want to ask him something, I'm 3 going to let them. All right? Because nothing 4 happened. I mean, we haven't gotten very far with 5 this witness. I don't want you talking to him in 6 any great detail, but if you want to say, "Why, you 7 have gone through this, what is this," get an 8 explanation, to speed this along tomorrow, I'll 9 allow that. 10 MR. LIROT: We'll do that. 11 THE COURT: Let's just quit for the day. Maybe 12 this will go faster. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I'll leave all this here tonight. 15 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, the other witness we'll 16 be calling tomorrow, her name is Nancy Many, 17 M-A-N-Y. 18 THE COURT: You are going to testify -- finish 19 up tomorrow? 20 MR. DANDAR: I think there are some things we 21 didn't talk about because we interrupted to put on 22 other witnesses. 23 THE COURT: Well, there are some things I'm not 24 even sure you even discussed yet. But -- I mean, I 25 realize your testimony has been kind of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 136 1 intermittent, but you better look at it and see if 2 there is anything you haven't finished that you want 3 to get in but -- I remember, for example, one thing 4 that came to my mind was Mr. Minton -- nobody ever 5 asked him a question about this. All of a sudden, 6 right at the end, he remembered something else he 7 lied about, which was that he gave you $60,000 as an 8 attorney fee. You know, that is one of those things 9 that is in there unrebutted. I don't know why he 10 was giving you an attorney fee because you are on a 11 contingency basis. But there it is. 12 I don't know -- you never discussed it. This 13 is what he said. It is in a subsequent affidavit. 14 It would seem like, you know, you might -- I would 15 like to know what that is all about. 16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 17 THE COURT: You are the only other person, 18 other than him, that could discuss that. He wasn't 19 asked by either side. 20 MR. WEINBERG: No, I think what he said was -- 21 and I could be wrong -- was that he knew that 22 Mr. Dandar had used $60,000 of the moneys as a fee, 23 as opposed to giving him something more, you know. 24 THE COURT: He said Mr. -- Mr. Dandar said he 25 needed $60,000 -- I think he used the term -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 137 1 attorney fees. 2 MR. WEINBERG: That is what he said. 3 THE COURT: Then I thought I wonder what that 4 means. Like what attorney fee? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 6 THE COURT: Then I thought somebody would ask 7 him, because he was on the stand a long time, and 8 nobody ever did. So that is kind of out there. 9 Then I think he corrected it on his -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: He did. 11 THE COURT: -- his latest recantation -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: He did. 13 THE COURT: -- and brought that up. But, there 14 again, I don't know what he's talking about. So 15 that is something that Mr. Dandar may want to -- so 16 there are some things I think you may need to talk 17 about. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. 19 THE COURT: But you will be short, is that what 20 you're telling me? 21 MR. DANDAR: I would hope so. 22 THE COURT: Then this person, is that your last 23 witness? 24 MR. DANDAR: Right. 25 THE COURT: I'll try tonight -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 138 1 MR. WEINBERG: We would be ready Monday for 2 rebuttal. 3 THE COURT: What is tomorrow? Is that Friday? 4 MR. DANDAR: Friday. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Friday. 6 THE COURT: Good. I'll try to get you the 7 E-Mails. I just can't get you those tapes. They 8 are an hour apiece and there are five hours of them. 9 But, listen, if I review them and then I give them 10 to you-all, I will already have seen them. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I guess -- 12 THE COURT: So whatever you want introduced, I 13 will have seen them. 14 MR. WEINBERG: We need to look at them. 15 THE COURT: I understand that. But I guess 16 what I'm saying is you could just simply -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe -- 18 THE COURT: -- tell me what it is -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 20 THE COURT: -- after the fact. You-all will 21 need time to do closing argument, you can say you 22 want to introduce them, see if Mr. Dandar objected. 23 If so, I could make a ruling -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, if you -- 25 THE COURT: -- if I let it in, I'll make a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 139 1 ruling. But -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: If you viewed them this weekend, 3 for example, and you decided to give them to us, if 4 there was some way to communicate with you, if you 5 made that decision, we could take them this weekend 6 whenever you did it -- 7 THE COURT: I don't know -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not pushing you. 9 THE COURT: Thank you, but I'm duty judge. 10 This means I have to go out to the Criminal Justice 11 Center, see every kid that is picked up, every 12 misdemeanor and felon that is picked up on both 13 Saturday and Sunday. 14 MR. WEINBERG: The Supreme Court, I guess with 15 the King case you never had to do anything or -- 16 THE COURT: I have not yet. However, I'm kept 17 up-to-date every day on what is happening. And I 18 always have calls and I always am on the website to 19 see. But right now it is in the status where I do 20 not have to do anything except check what is going 21 on. 22 But -- but I do have to, this weekend, be duty 23 judge. That only gives me the afternoon. And as I 24 said, they said an hour apiece, and there are five 25 tapes. That is five hours of stuff I'm sure I don't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 140 1 want to see because this is just stuff from LMT, you 2 know. I have seen stuff from LMT. The other 3 stuff -- I mean, that is either probably pickets 4 or -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Whatever. I mean, whatever you 6 see, we'll take it and then figure out whether we -- 7 what we want to play out of it. 8 THE COURT: You think you'll finish by tomorrow 9 possibly? 10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 11 MR. LIROT: Yes, your Honor, we will. 12 MR. WEINBERG: We'll do Monday. 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: You won't mind if I leave at 14 four tomorrow? 15 THE COURT: I won't mind at all. Is that 16 Friday you need to get home to New York? 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon, have you been home to 19 California lately? 20 MR. MOXON: Not lately. But soon. Thank you. 21 THE COURT: Sir, you are excused. That little 22 rule I just gave you on relaxing enough if they want 23 to go over these documents to see if we can speed 24 this along a little bit, it is all right. If they 25 ask you anything, you can assume they understood Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 141 1 what I said and you can answer them. All right? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. All right. 3 THE COURT: We're in recess until tomorrow at 4 9~o'clock. 5 (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 4:30 6 p.m.) 7 ______________________________________ 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 142 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 5 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 6 I further certify that I am not a relative, 7 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 8 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 9 10 DATED this 11th day of July, 2002. 11 12 13 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500