143 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 2 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 CONTENTS: Testimony of Frank Oliver. 18 DATE: July 12, 2002. Afternoon Session. 19 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 20 St. Petersburg, Florida. 21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 22 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 23 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 144 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 10 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 11 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 12 13 MR. LEE FUGATE MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization. 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 20 Organization. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 145 1 THE COURT: You understand the same oath we 2 gave you yesterday you are under now throughout your 3 testimony? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I understand. 5 THE COURT: You may continue. I'm sorry if you 6 were waiting for me. 7 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 11 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 160 and ask if you can 12 identify that document for the Court. 13 A Yes, I can. This is an executive directive, 14 "Security Situation Handling Checklist." 15 Q And is this one of the documents that you were 16 required to be familiar with as part of your participation 17 in OSA? 18 A Yes. It was. 19 Q All right. What was it in this document that you 20 were required to be familiar with? 21 A Mmm, this particular document is -- it's a check 22 sheet that delineates different types of categories that 23 would be of concern to the Office of Special Affairs, 24 categories of individuals who would be identified as 25 potential security situations. They referred to people Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 146 1 within and outside of the organization in the description of 2 the different categories. 3 Q All right. Now, on the back -- on the second 4 page, amongst, I guess, the theories of public people 5 attacking the organization and squirrels which I think we've 6 become familiar with, and external sources threatening legal 7 action and newspaper reporters and things, if you turn to 8 the second page and look at Subsection G, was there ever any 9 explanation as to why that particular category would be 10 listed as threats to the -- I guess the security of 11 Scientology? 12 A Yes. These particular individuals, as shown here, 13 would be considered people that were PTS, that could cause 14 serious problems with the organization. They would be 15 something that the Office of Special Affairs would 16 definitely be aware of and would look into to try and handle 17 whatever situation arose because of that type of person 18 being identified. 19 Someone who is Type III, for example. Or anyone 20 that would be antagonistic that could be connected to them. 21 If you have somebody that was. Or an attempted suicide 22 case, that delineates here, anyone connected to them, that 23 could cause a problem for the organization in terms of 24 making the problem public, making it known, taking it 25 outside of the organization for it to be handled. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 147 1 Q So not to assume anything, but in studying this, 2 what did you understand where it says, "Any external or 3 antagonistic connections to them, to a suicide case or a PTS 4 Type III," what would an external or antagonistic case or 5 PTS case type be? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Are you talking about what it 7 means to you as to what -- 8 THE COURT: Yes. To him. 9 MR. WEINBERG: To him? 10 A Okay, my understanding, from reading this, and 11 knowing the definition of what that says, it would be the 12 family members that would be associated with that type of an 13 individual. If they would be antagonistic to the 14 organization, then it would be something they would want to 15 handle, because if you could handle the individual within 16 the organization, you can't not be able to handle the 17 family, as well, or anyone connected to them. And that 18 would be outside of the organization. 19 What the checklist does is it identifies which 20 categories of individuals delineated on the list would be a 21 matter for whether it be internal, handled by HCO, or 22 whether it be something handled by the Office of Special 23 Affairs that would be something that would be outward 24 facing, or external. 25 The Office of Special Affairs is an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 148 1 outward-looking unit. And basically what it does, it sets 2 itself up as a shield, if you will, to -- Mmm -- handle 3 anything from an outside source that would cause a problem 4 for Scientology. So it is basically the front line. 5 And this kind of shows what the things -- what 6 things you do to handle the different types of individuals. 7 If it is somebody who is connected to a group, let's say, 8 some kind of -- as it says here, members connected to 9 anti-religious group, for example. They would identify that 10 as being something that OSA would handle, versus something 11 that HCO would handle, or somebody that was in the 12 organization, that may be a different case manifestation or 13 something they would have to handle on the individual inside 14 the organization. 15 Q Would OSA covertly surveil the distraught parents 16 of a suicide victim, situations under this -- this policy 17 letter? 18 A Under the policy letter, it would be a matter for 19 OSA to handle. And they would do the actions that OSA 20 partake in. The things that OSA does, whether it be 21 investigation, OBC, anything they deem that would be 22 important to gather information on that individual, if it 23 was a family member or any outside source, they would do the 24 steps that are delineated in the check sheet, steps 25 delineated -- the responsibilities of the Office of Special Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 149 1 Affairs, that is what they would take care of. 2 So that goes without saying, almost, but I'll say 3 it. 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 5 160 into evidence. 6 MR. WEINBERG: It is my continuing objection. 7 Remember, yesterday, about how he got the documents? 8 THE COURT: Are you saying these are part of 9 the stolen documents? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. But, you know, that is my 11 only objection, the manner in which he got them, not 12 the policy itself. 13 THE COURT: Okay. It will be received. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 16 marked as Exhibit 161 and ask you if you can identify that 17 for the Court. 18 A Yes. Yes, this is Hubbard Communications Office 19 policy letter dated -- dated 15 August, 1960. 20 THE COURT: Maybe I'm confused. And I do want 21 to clear this up because in my mind I need to get 22 this cleared up. I was thinking yesterday that once 23 we really got into this, that the stolen matters 24 were like the notes, not the documents. 25 MR. WEINBERG: It is really his -- it's a lot Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 150 1 of things that he took that, by agreement, he wasn't 2 entitled to take. 3 I'm not objecting to the way Hubbard policy, 4 per se -- I'm objecting to the way in which these 5 came into possession of Mr. Oliver. All right? 6 THE COURT: Just so I know and just so I'm 7 clear, Mr. Oliver has testified that he took a 8 course which he paid for, I take it -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: No. No. No. No. These 10 materials were part of his job, his hat at OSA in 11 the Church. 12 In other words, he wasn't a public member 13 taking a course. He was a staff member, much like, 14 you know, an employee would come to my firm and get, 15 among other things, an office manual, for example, 16 and various other things that would set forth, you 17 know, the rules and regulations of being at my law 18 firm, for example. 19 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: So, I mean, I'll go over it in 21 cross-examination. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. WEINBERG: That is my objection. 24 THE COURT: For now, I'll let them in and we'll 25 see if there is a legal question for them after Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 151 1 we're done. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, as a brief response, these 3 are all copywritten documents. These are no 4 different than policy letters identified, I guess, 5 as scripture of the Church, apparently that we have 6 volumes and volumes of. 7 THE COURT: I'm letting them in for now. And 8 we're going to let him cross-examine, and then if 9 there is a legal issue, I'll address it and give you 10 an opportunity to argue it, as well as the Church to 11 argue it. 12 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Which exhibit are you on? 14 MR. LIROT: We're on 161. This is one of the 15 ones we decided we would expedite. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q This is one of the documents, one of the policy 18 letters you were required to be familiar with, and you would 19 dispatch the policies in this letter as part of your 20 affiliation with OSA, is that correct? 21 A Yes. This is part of the documents I was to 22 become very familiar with. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move 161 24 into evidence. 25 THE COURT: Subject to the same -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 152 1 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Mr. Oliver, I'll hand you what we marked as 5 Exhibit 162 and ask if you can identify this document for 6 the Court. 7 A Mmm, this is a Hubbard Communications Office 8 bulletin of 5 November, 1967 entitled "Critics of 9 Scientology." 10 THE COURT: Tell me, on the distribution -- 11 what I perceive to have been in the past 12 distribution data, what a "BPI" is on the left-hand 13 side? 14 THE WITNESS: Broad -- I believe it is "broad 15 public issue," which means it is something 16 disseminated broadly within the organization. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Mr. Oliver, you were looking at Exhibit 162, "The 20 Critics of Scientology." 21 A Yes. 22 Q Can you tell me what elements of this 23 particular -- this is a bulletin. Please identify the 24 concepts in this bulletin that you were required to be 25 familiar with and dispatch in your responsibilities with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 153 1 OSA. 2 A This was written to point out or to -- to make it 3 known that if it was determined to be a fact that -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, what my objection 5 is, he's saying it was written for a particular 6 reason. 7 The question is what was it in this document 8 that you were -- had to become familiar with. 9 THE COURT: Well, you know, I was interested in 10 that, too, because the truth of the matter is if he 11 was told to read the document, I'm assuming he was 12 supposed to read the whole document. 13 MR. WEINBERG: What I'm saying, when he says it 14 was written for a particular reason, obviously 15 Mr. Hubbard wrote it. 16 THE COURT: Right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I think this is one Mr. Hubbard 18 wrote. You and I and no one else in the world, you 19 know, know exactly what was the reason. 20 THE COURT: That is sustained. But let me see 21 if I'm right on this. When you are asked what were 22 you to be familiar with, I assume if you are given 23 the document, you are to be familiar with everything 24 that is in it. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 154 1 THE COURT: I mean, they didn't just mark 2 little pieces of it and say "Just learn this"? 3 THE WITNESS: No. The whole thing. 4 THE COURT: So when you are talking about a 5 given piece, it is because you are being asked a 6 question about that, not because you weren't 7 familiar and expected to be familiar with the entire 8 document? True? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. LIROT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Mr. Oliver, let me draw your attention down to the 14 last two lines on Page 782 of this particular exhibit. Read 15 that into the record, if you will, and tell me what your 16 understanding of that particular concept in that paragraph 17 was. 18 A "Now, get this as a technical fact, not a hopeful 19 idea. Every time we have investigated the background of a 20 critic of Scientology, we have found crime for which that 21 person or group could be imprisoned under existing law. We 22 do not find critics of Scientology who do not have criminal 23 pasts. Over and over we have proved this." 24 Q What was the idea behind that when you were 25 dispatching your responsibilities for critics of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 155 1 Scientology? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. The same objection. 3 THE COURT: Yes. I think that is a difficult 4 thing for him to answer, what was the -- whatever it 5 is behind that. I mean, it says what it says. It 6 doesn't use any odd language. I understand what 7 they're saying. I'm not sure what you're asking 8 him. 9 Were you to go out and try to prove these 10 crimes? Is that part of what OSA did? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. This policy letter states 12 it in such a way that any actions taken by the 13 individual in the Office of Special Affairs reading 14 this that has to know it, that has to go out on 15 assignment and do anything, that is a basic premise. 16 Anybody who speaks out against Scientology is a 17 criminal. That is a given. 18 So this policy letter just reiterates that 19 fact, which isn't necessarily a fact. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, does this mean that whether or not somebody 22 actually has crimes as, I guess, the definition would be 23 outside of Scientology, whether OSA would try to create 24 situations that would infer or by innuendo suggest that such 25 crimes, real or imagined, exist? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 156 1 A I -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form of the 3 question, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 What does this mean to you? 6 THE WITNESS: To me, it meant that anything 7 that was asked of an individual like myself in the 8 Office of Special Affairs to do could be justified 9 in that this, as it was written, states that anyone 10 who speaks out critically about Scientology has some 11 kind of crime or is a criminal. Thus, there are 12 policies that dictate how that individual is to be 13 handled, how that individual is to be investigated, 14 and the fact that the organization is correct in all 15 its assumptions in that anyone that speaks out 16 critically is a criminal, that they are correct just 17 by mere virtue of the written word of L. Ron 18 Hubbard. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 20 162 into evidence. 21 THE COURT: It will be received. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 24 marked as Exhibit 163 and ask you if you can identify this 25 for the Court. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 157 1 A This is a Hubbard Communications Office policy 2 letter of 25 February, 1966 entitled "Attacks on 3 Scientology." 4 Q Was this one of the documents that you were 5 required to be familiar with as part of your training and 6 accreditation in OSA? 7 A Yes. 8 MR. LIROT: I would like to move Exhibit 163 9 into evidence, Judge. 10 THE COURT: It will be received. 11 Can you tell me what a R-E-M-I -- 12 THE WITNESS: Remimeo? 13 THE COURT: Right. 14 THE WITNESS: I believe it was part of the 15 organization that did the -- I believe it was 16 involved in doing printing of this or reduplicating 17 of it, I believe. I'm not sure of that, your Honor, 18 but I believe -- 19 THE COURT: Am I right that these things up 20 here on the left-hand side are generally the people 21 to whom this is distributed? 22 THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor. That is a 23 distribution area of the document. 24 THE COURT: I'm talking about the first one. I 25 can't even read it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 158 1 THE WITNESS: Remimeo. Everything in the upper 2 left-hand corner of the policy letter indicates who 3 the individuals are that this policy letter -- these 4 people are to know about this policy letter. 5 THE COURT: Who is that? Here it is. Look at 6 it on the next page, next one, it looks like it is 7 R-E-M-I-M-C-O. 8 THE WITNESS: R-E-M-I-M-E-O. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think I can 10 clarify that. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I think all it means it can be 13 recopied at the local org. 14 MR. LIROT: Prior to the advent of the copy 15 machine it used to be the mimeograph, and they would 16 have those machines that would roll off the copies 17 and have that pungent aroma. 18 THE COURT: I do remember those. 19 MR. LIROT: All right. 20 MR. WEINBERG: So it is not -- it is not -- 21 THE COURT: A section -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: -- a section or anything. It is 23 just -- 24 THE COURT: Thank you. 25 THE WITNESS: I stand corrected. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 159 1 THE COURT: So I let in 163, was that right? 2 MR. LIROT: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Now we're on 164? 4 MR. LIROT: We're on 164 now, Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been 7 marked as Exhibit 164 and ask if you can identify that for 8 the Court. 9 A Yes, this is an HCO policy letter of 25 April, 10 1968 entitled "Intelligence Actions." 11 Q And was this one of the documents you were 12 required to be familiar with as part of your OSA training 13 and accreditation? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 16 164 into evidence. 17 THE COURT: I thought it already was. 18 MR. WEINBERG: That would be a good example, 19 Judge, of a document not for general release if you 20 look at the corner, of why we would have an 21 objection to it being taken without the authority of 22 the Church. 23 THE COURT: All right. You will raise that 24 again -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 160 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, the next two exhibits, 165 2 and 166, as I understand it these have already been 3 entered. And I believe they were 8 and 9. These 4 were entered early on, I think when Ms. Brooks was 5 testifying. 6 THE COURT: I don't object to them being 7 introduced again as far as a part of this packet if 8 he got both of them. 9 But did you get both of them? 10 THE WITNESS: I haven't gotten either of them. 11 MR. LIROT: I'm going to hand those up right 12 now, Judge. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Can you identify those documents for the Court, 15 Mr. Oliver? 16 A Yes. One is a document entitled "Penalties for 17 Lower Conditions." 18 And the -- it is dated HCO policy letter 18 19 October, 1967. 20 The other policy letter is dated 21 October, 1968 21 entitled "Cancellation of Fair Game." 22 Q "Penalties for Lower Conditions," is that just 23 another way -- I guess fancy way of saying this is what we 24 do with critics or enemies of Scientology? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 161 1 THE COURT: Sustained. The objection is that 2 you told him what the answer is. 3 MR. LIROT: All right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Look at Exhibit 165 and tell me what that is, 6 Mr. Oliver. 7 A It's -- it seems to be what the penalties would be 8 for an individual that would be assigned a lower condition 9 in the condition formulas -- and the conditions as assigned 10 in Scientology: Liability, treason, doubt and enemy. And 11 next to the condition, it shows what the penalty would be 12 for that. 13 Q And the penalties for an enemy? 14 A It says "SP order." SP meaning suppressive 15 person. "Fair game. May be deprived of property or injured 16 by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of 17 the Scientologist, may be tricked, sued or lied to or 18 destroyed." 19 MR. WEINBERG: I object to this particular 20 document. As you know, there has been a 21 cancellation and another explanation and all this 22 after that, as you know, about the fair game. 23 MR. LIROT: I was just about to get to it, 24 Judge. 25 THE COURT: Yes, this has been the subject of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 162 1 quite a bit of discussion in this hearing. There 2 has also been some discussion on the next document 3 and whether or not this cancellation of fair game 4 applies to the handling of an SP. So I understand 5 your objection. I think you made it before. And 6 I'll have to decide how I'll rule on that at some 7 point in time. 8 MR. LIROT: Obviously, Judge, this one has 9 already been entered, so I'll not reenter it -- 10 THE COURT: Well, you can if, in fact, it is 11 part of -- 12 MR. LIROT: I'll move these two into evidence 13 as part of this packet. 14 THE COURT: Did you get both of them? 15 THE WITNESS: I received information in -- I 16 actually had to put my pack together when I 17 originally got it when it was originally given to 18 me, because at the time I was in the Office of 19 Special Affairs in Los Angeles was the first time 20 they had actually created that pack. 21 I was supposed to receive my pack in my org in 22 Miami. And I was told by my senior to wait until I 23 got to Los Angeles and they would give me a 24 brand-new pack. In the meanwhile, she assisted me 25 in finding policy letters that were part of, you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 163 1 know, that pack and the information I needed to do 2 my job. 3 So she gave me a lot of different issues -- 4 gave them to me in a folder. 5 THE COURT: Were these both in there? 6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I believe both of these were 7 at the time, yes. 8 This -- this part down here on this particular 9 document, it has been admitted into evidence, that 10 particular part wasn't in it. I just want to clear 11 that up because that wasn't part of what I was 12 given. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Well, Mr. Oliver, let me draw your attention to 15 Exhibit 166. You have seen this document before, 16 "Cancellation of Fair Game." 17 I'll read for the record. It says: "The practice 18 of declaring people fair game will cease. Fair game may not 19 appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public 20 relations." 21 The paragraph below -- the one-sentence paragraph 22 says: "This policy letter --" which I understand the 23 abbreviation "PL" to stand for "-- does not cancel any 24 policy on the treatment or handling of an SP." 25 So what is your understanding of that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 164 1 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Does the declaration still exist, and treatment 4 and handling stay the same? 5 MR. WEINBERG: In essence, what he's asking him 6 is to explain fair game. And I think it's 7 inappropriate. 8 There is a long history between 1968 and -- 9 '67 -- or whatever the date is on that document he's 10 looking at in front of him -- '68 I think it 11 originally cancelled it -- and 2002, including 12 Mr. Hubbard's affidavit which is in evidence in 13 1976, the new policy that was, you know, further 14 explained, and made it absolutely clear that fair 15 game was -- had been long since gone and it was 16 being misinterpreted in 1980. 17 This man is not an expert, nor could he be 18 qualified as one. And he should not be talking 19 about a policy that -- and his understanding of a 20 policy -- that hasn't been in existence since 1968 21 or '7, whatever the date was. 22 THE COURT: I think -- 23 MR. LIROT: Well -- 24 THE COURT: Go ahead. 25 MR. LIROT: We can explore that, Judge. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 165 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Let me ask you something. In your 3 responsibilities as an investigative arm of OSA, as part of 4 that, you dealt with people that were declared SPs, is that 5 true? 6 A Yes. There were individuals that were declared 7 that were targets or subjects of the investigative work that 8 I did. 9 Q So part of what your responsibilities were that 10 you dealt with, people that were labeled critics or enemies 11 or suppressive persons, that was part of what OSA dealt 12 with? 13 A That is part of what OSA dealt with. That is what 14 I dealt with when I was there. 15 Q In dealing with those people, regardless of what 16 declaration was made or what label you put on them, was it 17 part of OSA policies, in respect to your responsibilities, 18 that they could be tricked, sued or lied to? 19 A From what I observed and from what I participated 20 in, Mmm, there were -- there were things -- and I won't 21 speak in specifics because the judge told me not to speak in 22 specifics -- 23 THE COURT: No, I don't mind you speaking in 24 specifics. I don't want a lot of -- once I learn 25 this thing hits the Internet every night, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 166 1 apparently, it bothers me a little bit that 2 specifics -- if people are named -- that this -- 3 this -- you know, this could be painful to the 4 Church, it could be painful to the individuals. 5 So I guess what I'm saying, you can be 6 specific. But I don't want you to identify 7 necessarily a person who may be affected by the fact 8 this is going to be posted all over the Internet. I 9 don't mean to say you can't be specific. I just 10 would like not to have specific names -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: Part of our objection, of 12 course, was to the extent he was working on cases, 13 which is what he testified these were. 14 And that is no different than Mr. Dandar 15 objecting to my being able to talk to Ray Emmons, 16 his investigator, or any other member of his office, 17 or Mr. Dandar being able to talk to somebody in my 18 office. I mean -- 19 THE COURT: Are you asserting a privilege? 20 What is it? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, to the extent that he 22 would discuss what he was doing with regard to a 23 legal case, yes, if that is what he was doing. And 24 I think that is what he testified to, whenever it 25 was, yesterday. That is what they did. They worked Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 167 1 on legal cases. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think his testimony was 3 that was only a component of his responsibility. 4 THE COURT: That is what I thought, too. 5 MR. LIROT: And my question so far -- I haven't 6 asked him about any specific case, legal or 7 otherwise. I'm asking him about concepts -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: You didn't hear me object. The 9 question was have you -- have you -- I think it was 10 ever lied, sued or -- I forget the third one. 11 THE WITNESS: Tricked. 12 MR. LIROT: Tricked, sued, lied to or 13 destroyed. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is a new category. 15 MR. LIROT: I was going to get to that one. 16 THE COURT: Sued? This man probably never sued 17 a soul in his life. 18 You never sued anybody, have you? 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, I never sued 20 anybody. 21 THE COURT: So that is out. 22 What are you asking him, did he ever trick 23 anybody? 24 MR. LIROT: I'm asking him about the OSA 25 policies. Obviously, Judge, our position here is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 168 1 fair game -- maybe they peeled the label off the 2 outside of the jar, but the contents remain the 3 same. And if you read this, it is two paragraphs, 4 it says what it says. It doesn't take an expert to 5 take a look at this and say, "We're going to take 6 the declaration away but as far as the policy on the 7 treatment and handling, conduct that deals with SP, 8 that doesn't change a bit." And -- that doesn't 9 change a bit. 10 I'm asking Mr. Oliver, as a member of OSA, 11 whether anybody told him, "Oh, we can't trick people 12 anymore, and we're going to deprive people of 13 property, but if we catch you, you're going to be 14 punished." 15 I just want to explore that area as far as his 16 experience for the period of time that he worked 17 with OSA. 18 THE COURT: Then I'll not let him get into 19 specifics. But I'll let him get into general. 20 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. And I'll respect 21 that directive. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q While you were in OSA, do you know any 24 Scientologist or member of OSA that was disciplined for 25 depriving people of property? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 169 1 A Not to my knowledge. No. 2 Q Do you know anybody that was disciplined because 3 they injured somebody that was declared to be an enemy or 4 suppressive person of Scientology? 5 A Not to my knowledge at all. 6 Q All right. Was covert operations, and I guess 7 trickery, and obviously lying, part of that covert -- were 8 they ever disciplined? Were you ever told that was 9 something you couldn't do as a member of OSA? 10 A No. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor -- excuse 12 me, my objection -- 13 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Covert operations -- we talked 15 about this yesterday. Mr. Lirot uses private 16 investigators. Mr. Dandar uses private 17 investigators. You did. I did. 18 So to ask a question like that, I mean, it is 19 so -- it is so general. 20 I mean, maybe the question is did you do 21 anything illegal, Mr. Oliver? That would be -- 22 THE COURT: I think that some of that is fairly 23 obvious. As I said, if he was in a group that dealt 24 with investigations and some of it was covert, it is 25 not done in, necessarily, a truthful fashion. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 170 1 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. LIROT: Obviously, I don't want to be 4 misperceived in the questioning. I'm not concerned 5 about legality. I'm talking about the very concept 6 of cancelling a policy that in practice has never 7 been cancelled, from our perspective. I understand 8 there is a disagreement about this. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. What is that from 10 our perspective? I mean, the Church cancelled a 11 policy. 12 THE COURT: Do you know what? 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry? 14 THE COURT: I read a declaration last night -- 15 I started to read it, and I read about halfway 16 through it, of Mr. Miscavige. 17 It is very obvious to me that this church has 18 been fighting with this for a long time. This is 19 not the first time this came up. So it is not clear 20 as a bell. Obviously, other judges have struggled 21 with it. And -- and obviously some judges have 22 ruled that it is a cancelled policy, and apparently 23 some have ruled it is not. 24 I haven't ruled yet. So, consequently -- I 25 mean, I can understand you get all upset if you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 171 1 want. But it is not clear as a bell that fair game 2 has been cancelled. It apparently is something that 3 goes on in every lawsuit. 4 MR. WEINBERG: No. What goes on in every 5 lawsuit is that we get accused of a policy that was 6 cancelled in 1968. 7 And -- and I don't believe that Mr. Oliver, and 8 I don't believe that anyone in recent times, has 9 been qualified to testify about fair game. 10 MR. LIROT: Well -- 11 THE COURT: You know what? I'll qualify him, 12 if that is what it takes. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm not asking to you do 14 that. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Oliver, were you permitted, as 16 a member of OSA, to lie to a suppressive person? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Were you permitted as a suppressive 19 person to trick -- I'm sorry, were you permitted to 20 trick a suppressive person while you worked for OSA? 21 THE WITNESS: I was permitted to do things that 22 involved trickery in order to obtain information 23 from those individuals. 24 THE COURT: What years were those behaviors? 25 THE WITNESS: Between 1990 and '92 when I left. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 172 1 THE COURT: Were you permitted -- were you 2 permitted to destroy a person? 3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I was never given the 4 assignment to destroy anyone. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 THE WITNESS: I was given the assignment to 7 help destroy an organization, though, that was -- an 8 organization that was identified as being a 9 suppressive organization, yes. I was involved in 10 the destruction of an organization. 11 THE COURT: So whether or not we call it fair 12 game or whether we call it nothing, the fact of the 13 matter is, is when you were dealing with 14 investigative matters, you were permitted to trick 15 an enemy and you were permitted to lie to an enemy? 16 THE WITNESS: Correct. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So I don't know that it 18 matters what we call it. As a matter of fact, we 19 won't need to call it fair game, if the fair game 20 policy has been cancelled. And this doesn't 21 surprise me, by the way. I mean, intelligence deals 22 with trickery and it deals with lies sometimes. 23 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think it mistakes -- 24 it clearly says it doesn't cancel any policy. And I 25 keep hearing we've cancelled the policy. That is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 173 1 exactly the opposite of what the document says. 2 It says the practice of declaring people fair 3 game will cease. That is the cancellation. The 4 sentence below that says this doesn't cancel any 5 policy. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well then -- 7 THE COURT: We'll argue that at a later time. 8 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 9 THE COURT: I simply wanted to get through this 10 testimony that -- I don't care what the end result 11 is as far as if you are trying to establish that as 12 a member of OSA doing investigative work, it is all 13 right to lie and trick the enemy, that that 14 happened, no matter whether you call it -- whatever 15 you call it. 16 Those two documents will be admitted. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to hand you what has been 19 marked as Exhibits 167, 168 and 169 and ask if you can 20 identify those for the Court. 21 THE COURT: The reason I brought up 22 Mr. Miscavige's affidavit is because he goes into 23 some great detail about this fair game and how 24 you-all are constantly having to deal with it and 25 what have you. So I assumed I wasn't the first Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 174 1 judge -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: No, I think that was the reason 3 for Mr. Hubbard's affidavit in '76 or whenever it 4 was. 5 THE COURT: Clearly Mr. Miscavige, in the 6 lawsuit, whatever that affidavit was for, that was 7 not the first time it was dealt with by the Church. 8 MR. WEINBERG: That was the Wollersheim 9 whatever. 10 What are these exhibits? 11 MR. LIROT: 167, 168 and 169. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Can you identify Exhibit 167 for the Court, 14 Mr. Oliver? 15 A Yes, I can. It is an HCO policy letter dated 16 March 1, 1965. The title is "Justice. Suppressive Acts, 17 Suppression of Scientology and Scientologists, the Fair Game 18 Law." 19 Q If you turn to the fourth page of that particular 20 exhibit -- 21 THE COURT: Which one is it now? 22 MR. LIROT: This is 167, Judge. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q I don't know if all copies are highlighted but 25 down toward the bottom it says "Rights of a Suppressive Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 175 1 Person or Group." 2 THE COURT: That isn't even on my Page 4. 3 MR. LIROT: On 167? 4 THE COURT: Mine is on Page 3. One, two, 5 three. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, you must be missing a page. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. LIROT: I'll exchange -- 9 THE COURT: Whoops, I'm sorry. I just found -- 10 I found Page 2. You are right. The bottom of Page 11 4. 12 A Yes. It says: "Rights of a suppressive person or 13 group --" 14 THE COURT: By the way, those questions I asked 15 him don't require expert testimony, you know. 16 When you worked there, were you permitted to -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. I understand. 18 A "A truly suppressive person or group has no rights 19 of any kind. And actions taken against them are not 20 punishable." 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Do you know of any policy letter that cancelled 23 this particular policy letter? 24 A Not to my knowledge. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, my objection is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 176 1 that this policy letter, which was written in 1965, 2 refers to fair game. And we've just had, several 3 years later, a -- a policy that cancels fair game. 4 So -- so I make that objection for the record. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 7 167 into evidence. 8 THE COURT: It will be received. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Mr. Oliver, can you identify Exhibit 168 to the 11 Court? 12 A Yes, I can. This is an article -- actually, a 13 page from an article on Level 0 check sheet. It is undated. 14 And it talks in here about -- this is a reiteration of the 15 same type of -- this particular paragraph is in other 16 places, as well. It is in another policy letter. It's in 17 another piece of information that is in the pack that I 18 think is the next exhibit. And it appears here. 19 It's a repetition of things that have been pulled 20 out of here and are used elsewhere, which is talking about 21 the offense of anything being untenable, the only way to 22 defend anything is to attack. 23 This is reflected in other policies letters. I 24 can't quote you specific name or date of the policy letters 25 but they have already been introduced in evidence earlier. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 177 1 This is just another place where it appears. 2 The statement of never be interested in -- 3 basically to never take an offensive position -- I mean 4 never take defensive position, to always take an offensive 5 position and to always attack and never have to defend. You 6 know, basically take the -- take the wind out of the sail of 7 the enemy by attacking them so that they are on the defense 8 and you are on the offense. Very pro -- it is a very 9 proactive stance. 10 THE COURT: Sounds like pretty good advice, 11 doesn't it, if you are going to do an investigation? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, if -- you know, the way 13 that I saw it work, if someone is making a criticism 14 of the -- of the Scientology organization, instead 15 of, you know, dealing with that criticism and trying 16 to explain to the person how their criticism is 17 unfounded, what the organization would do, what the 18 Office of Special Affairs would do would be to find 19 something on that individual and attack them, 20 instead of replying to the original -- almost like 21 if you filed a lawsuit against somebody, instead of 22 addressing those issues, you -- you know, you come 23 back with something else completely unrelated, it 24 throws the other person off. So instead of 25 addressing the issue of why that person is saying Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 178 1 something critical, they just go off and find 2 something about the individual, try to investigate 3 them to get them on the defensive, not to address 4 the issue raised in the first place because it may 5 prove to be that the other -- that the individual 6 attacking is correct. And that is the last thing 7 that Scientology would want to happen. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q What about the OSA policies about their 10 participation in lawsuits -- no specific lawsuit -- but I'm 11 referring to Page 55 where it is highlighted about how the 12 law can be used? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, mine isn't 14 highlighted. So I don't know what he's talking 15 about. 16 THE COURT: Mine is highlighted, but I have 17 seen this in the policy letter in evidence already. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, mine is highlighted. 19 A It says: "The law can be used very easily to 20 harass. And enough harassment on somebody who is simply on 21 the thin edge anyway, well knowing that he's not authorized, 22 will generally be sufficient to cause his professional 23 decease, if possible, of course, ruin him utterly." 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move 168 25 into evidence. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 179 1 MR. WEINBERG: I do object to this. I would 2 like to know what it is from, the whole thing in 3 context -- 4 THE COURT: I tell you what. I have problems 5 with this for several reasons. 6 Number one, I don't know what it is. It says 7 "Magazine articles on Level 0." I don't know what 8 Level 0 is. It does say: "Do not remove when --" 9 and it has somebody, "Hubble, valuable document," 10 and it is really sort of just a page out of -- I 11 mean Page 54 and 55. I mean, Level 0, I don't know 12 what Level 0 is. Page 54 and 55 -- I mean, on these 13 policy letters, I can see the whole policy letter. 14 This is just two pages. 15 So I have problems with this. I'm not going to 16 allow this in. 17 MR. LIROT: All right. 18 THE COURT: But as I said, I had seen this in a 19 policy letter maybe. But that is out. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Mr. Oliver, take a look at Exhibit 169 and 22 identify that document for the Court. 23 A This is called -- this is out of Ability. It 24 says: "The Scientologist, a manual on the dissemination of 25 material." And it says "Circa 1955, mid-March." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 180 1 Q Is this one of the documents you had to 2 familiarize yourself with? And is this part of your hat 3 pack? 4 A Well, this was actually something that was given 5 to me as part of the packet of information that was given to 6 me by J.C. Pase in the DSA's Office in Miami. 7 And on Page -- I guess Page 152, if you can read 8 it, the exact same thing that was in that last exhibit is 9 actually in here, as well. 10 Q And this was given to you and expressed to you to 11 be familiar with as part of the dispatch of your 12 responsibilities for OSA? 13 A Correct. And the two paragraphs that I read 14 before, which are also in here, they also appear in other 15 policy letters that I believe have been entered into 16 evidence, as well. So it just shows that it is in more than 17 just one place, it is a lot of different places that that 18 point is reiterated. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 20 169 into evidence. 21 THE COURT: It will be received. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q As part of your training in Scientology and your 24 requirement that you familiarize yourself with these 25 policies, is it accepted or taught that a policy is valid Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 181 1 until there is actually a cancellation of that policy if it 2 is one of L. Ron Hubbard's policies? 3 A Well, I joined the organization in 1986. And 4 Mr. Hubbard had died earlier, I believe, in that year. And 5 subsequent to that, any policies and anything that I have 6 ever read in Scientology, the only individual that can 7 cancel a policy in Scientology would be L. Ron Hubbard 8 himself. 9 There was a period of time in which some new 10 issues came out that basically revised policy. And it was 11 told to us -- it was told to the staff members that this was 12 work that Mr. Hubbard had written and hadn't been published 13 yet, and it changed certain policies in the organization, it 14 revised them and it showed the revisions, for example, in 15 script in some cases for older policies, and for newer 16 policies they just show -- after the date, there is a number 17 that shows that the policy has been revised. If it has been 18 revised one, there is an "R." And there are other sequences 19 for things that come later. 20 But the only person allowed to change anything in 21 Scientology would be L. Ron Hubbard. His word -- that was 22 it. No one can change anything. And that point is hammered 23 in every single course in Scientology. The first policy 24 letter is called KSW-1, which is Keeping Scientology 25 Working. And every course you do in Scientology, no matter Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 182 1 what, that policy letter is the first thing. 2 And that is something that Hubbard wrote where he 3 points out that in the past when, you know, he tried to get 4 input from other people, it hasn't worked out for him, so he 5 would be the only person that could write policy, change 6 policy, and any deviation from policy is something that, you 7 know, needed to be handled and hammered out of existence, 8 you know, to quote his own words. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move 169 10 into evidence. 11 THE COURT: It will be received. 12 MR. LIROT: All right. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 15 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 170 and ask if you can 16 identify that for the Court. 17 A This is information -- full hat. This is from the 18 Guardian's Office. This is dated 1974; 9 September, 1974. 19 This is the intelligence course for the Guardian's Office. 20 Q Have you had a chance to review this document? 21 A Yes, I have. 22 Q And does this compare to the full hat or the hat 23 for OSA when you were handed that particular -- what I'll 24 call -- a checklist document when you were made part of OSA 25 in the early '90s? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 183 1 A When I reviewed this document, I found many 2 consistencies in that a lot of the policies in this document 3 here appear in my check sheet in 1991. Many of the policies 4 are very similar. I mean, they're exactly the same, 5 actually. They're located in different locations throughout 6 the check sheet. 7 However the policies that were in my pack that was 8 printed in 1991 have the same information in many places 9 that appear in this particular hat pack that was from the 10 old Guardian's Office that was in 1974. 11 THE COURT: It was based on one of the first 12 documents that we went over yesterday? 13 THE WITNESS: The check sheet, the original -- 14 THE COURT: The check sheet? 15 THE WITNESS: The investigations officer hat 16 pack? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: This would be the predecessor to 19 that. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think that was Exhibit 143 22 was the one that was compared to that one. 23 Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 170 into 24 evidence. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to receive it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 184 1 Obviously, he was not presented this. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I was not, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: However, I'm going to let this be 4 admitted only from the standpoint of see whether 5 what he's saying is accurate or not. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, your Honor, I do want to 7 point out, first of all, all GO policy orders were 8 cancelled. 9 Secondly, there is a forgery in this. It has 10 been disseminated numerous times. It is called 11 Intelligence Specialist Training Routine, TRL, in 12 here. 13 It's equivalent, your Honor, to the 14 dissemination of something like the protocols of the 15 elders of Zion -- 16 THE COURT: What? 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: Protocols of the elders of 18 Zion, a forgery used to defame the Jewish religion. 19 It is even being done today. 20 This is a forgery. And we object to its 21 admission. 22 MR. LIROT: Maybe counsel can identify what 23 portions of it are forged. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: The entire thing. And it has 25 been used in this way for years, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 185 1 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. I'm going to 2 keep it out for now. However, I think you're going 3 to have to call somebody -- it would have some 4 relevance -- the relevance it might have would be 5 whether or not the Office of Special Affairs was, in 6 essence -- as has been testified to by some folks -- 7 the same thing as the Guardian's Office. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, this wasn't 9 even the Guardian's Office. 10 THE COURT: Wait, I haven't finished. 11 So there may be some relevance to this document 12 to see if, in fact, what this witness says -- what 13 this witness says is true. However, clearly, 14 obviously, if this is a forged document, it has no 15 relevance at all. But I just can't say it is a 16 forged document because you tell me that. 17 In other words, just put somebody on the stand. 18 You have a man right there to say this is a forged 19 document. I'll take his word for it. 20 MR. WEINBERG: But isn't it his responsibility 21 to authenticate it? 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: He says this was from 1974. He 23 can't authenticate something he says was from 1974. 24 THE COURT: How did you get this? 25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me, your Honor? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 186 1 THE COURT: This is some document that was 2 introduced in a court trial. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Do you know where this came from? 5 THE WITNESS: From my understanding, it came 6 from a court trial. 7 THE COURT: Did you get this when you were in 8 Scientology? 9 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: So you did not -- I mean, you were 11 not ever presented this? 12 THE WITNESS: When I was in Scientology? 13 THE COURT: Right. 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: This will not be received. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I thought he said he got it and 18 made some comparisons. Now that I understand -- 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, your Honor. He got it from 20 someplace. But -- 21 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm sure we can get an 22 original with an appropriate request for production. 23 So I guess we can hand that out later. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Huh? 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 187 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to present you with a 3 document that we marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 171 and ask 4 you if you can identify this for the Court. 5 A Yes. This is an HCO ethics order. It says, 6 "Suppressive Person Declare." It says "Frank Oliver." And 7 it is dated "16 November, 1992." 8 Q I guess this is what they give you after you have 9 been identified as a person that no longer wants to be a 10 member of Scientology? 11 A Well, when somebody has been identified as being a 12 suppressive person. In my particular case, I did no longer 13 want to be a member of Scientology at that point. Correct. 14 Q Well, what was the reason that -- I guess this 15 document will speak for itself. But for the record, can you 16 explain what the issues were that were identified in this 17 Suppressive Person Declare? 18 A Mmm, this was -- this was something I received 19 last time I was in the Church of Scientology. I had -- I 20 had -- I had wanted to leave Scientology and wanted to do it 21 the right way. And I had gotten on a Leaving Staff Routing 22 Form sometime prior to October of '92. 23 And when I made that assertion to my senior, 24 immediately it raised -- you know, raised eyebrows and 25 created a big stir because of the fact I had been in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 188 1 Office of Special Affairs. 2 And the first thing I was asked for were, you 3 know, "Give me the keys to the building," basically because 4 I had the keys to the organization, as well because of my 5 position in the organization. And I gladly turned over my 6 keys. 7 And I was told that in order to do the routing 8 form, I had to come in and do what are called OWs. OW -- 9 THE COURT: Overt withholds. 10 THE WITNESS: You got it. 11 MR. LIROT: Pretty good. 12 THE WITNESS: You are getting good, Judge. 13 A So they made me come in and start writing OWs. 14 And there was some documents that I had that were part of a 15 project that I had worked on when I was in -- in the Office 16 of Special Affairs. And it took me a week from the time 17 that I went, until the following time I showed up again, I 18 was asked to bring those documents in, which I did bring in 19 and is referenced to in this -- in this declare order. The 20 documents that I was asked to return I returned. 21 Mmm, the final time I walked in, they just handed 22 this thing to me. I mean, I was never given a Committee of 23 Evidence or any of the other normal justice procedures 24 involved when someone goes to leave the organization. They 25 just basically, you know, said, "Here, good-bye." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 189 1 And they delineate what they think are the reasons 2 why they wanted to declare me. And the big crime that, 3 according to them, I had committed was I wanted to leave. 4 That was my high crime, that I wanted to leave. And they 5 said I was making secret plans, and as stated here. 6 However, there was no secret about it. Everyone 7 in the organization knew it. They had me on the Leaving 8 Staff Routing Form. There was no secret behind me wanting 9 to leave. I said I wanted to leave, I didn't want to be 10 part of it anymore, and that was it. 11 But they chose to declare me and -- 12 THE COURT: This was given to you? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: So this is certainly not a stolen 15 document. 16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. I don't have any 17 stolen documents. 18 THE COURT: Well, this certainly isn't one if 19 they gave you a copy of it. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, given it to me 21 by Eric Tyler Arnet, who is the director of 22 Investigative Reports of the Miami org. His name is 23 on the document, as well. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Well, I guess whether we call it fair game or not, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 190 1 were the policies that you were asked to participate in as 2 part of OSA part of the reason you wanted to leave 3 Scientology? 4 A Yes. I -- I started -- because of the fact that 5 people in the Office of Special Affairs are basically the 6 external facing unit, they're the ones on the front line, 7 they're the ones taking all of the suppressive intake, if 8 you will, all that suppressive activity they claim is 9 suppressive out there, we're the ones on the front line and 10 we're to keep that from disturbing or bothering the 11 organization. 12 So, because of that, we were exposed to a lot of 13 information I was told by OSA was false and untrue. 14 Anything critical of the organization was false and untrue, 15 and that these people that we were investigating were 16 criminals, and that they held people against their will, and 17 they were kidnappers. And that was the impetus that kept me 18 in the organization as long as it kept me. 19 When I finally started to see and realize these 20 things being told to me were lies, they were fabrications, 21 and I was involved in something I didn't want to be involved 22 in anymore. 23 THE COURT: What things that were being told to 24 you? 25 THE WITNESS: I was told, for example -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 191 1 THE COURT: No, you indicated that you were 2 being told things, you were learning things from the 3 outside, and you were being told they were lies. 4 THE WITNESS: I was being told -- for example, 5 I was told that an individual -- I won't name him -- 6 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. You were being told 7 they were lies. I take it this was by the OSA unit? 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: Now then, you said you then 10 realized they were lies? 11 THE WITNESS: Correct. 12 THE COURT: What were lies? Which? 13 THE WITNESS: The things they were telling me 14 about the outside individuals were lies. 15 THE COURT: Things that OSA was telling you 16 were lies? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 THE WITNESS: I later discovered them to be 20 lies, and even -- I found out even more things that 21 I didn't know, outside, once I left Scientology. I 22 found out even more about it. 23 But I didn't become vocal about it until years 24 later. I mean, it took me many years. I -- I 25 didn't express my -- Mmm -- my personal feelings Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 192 1 until many years later. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 3 171 into evidence. 4 THE COURT: It will be received. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 7 marked as Exhibit 172 and ask if you can identify this for 8 the Court. 9 A Yes, your Honor. This is an executive directive 10 dated 10 September, 1991. It is suppressive persons and 11 suppressive groups list. 12 Q I guess up in the upper left-hand corner -- this 13 isn't confidential, it doesn't say non-remimeo, this goes to 14 everybody, all EOs and -- 15 A "EO" is ethics officers. All orgs and missions. 16 This is a Flag executive directive Number 2830. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, it only goes to 18 ethics officers in the orgs and missions. Mr. Lirot 19 just said it went everywhere. That is not true. It 20 went to one position. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 A This was also given to me as part of the 23 information in Scientology. It was given to me by my senior 24 directly. She handed this to me and said, "You have to know 25 who these people are because these are the people and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 193 1 organizations, these are the other -- these are other 2 churches that we have identified as suppressive. These are 3 other people we've identified, other groups that we consider 4 to be suppressive." 5 And these are basically -- basically, this is -- 6 this is a lot of work for an investigations officer who has 7 these individuals in their vicinity or under their area. 8 "These are the people that we keep tabs on. And 9 if they become active against the organization, these are 10 the people that we investigate and go after." 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay, so this breaks down -- 13 THE COURT: Is this in alphabetical order? 14 THE WITNESS: It is in somewhat of order. This 15 is exactly the way it was give to me, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What -- I guess there are different types of SPs 19 in this document. What are those? 20 A Well, there are some people in here that are -- 21 well, everyone in here is an SP per the document. And some 22 people in here are either declared and some are actually 23 expelled, which means they can never go back into 24 Scientology, and some are groups identified as suppressive 25 groups that could be -- that were subject to investigation Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 194 1 by the Office of Special Affairs. 2 You know, "S," for example, is identified in here 3 as an organization to be investigated as being a suppressive 4 organization. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I object because that is not 6 what the document says. The second sentence says: 7 "It is for your use to safeguard the lines of your 8 org or mission and to ensure that these individuals 9 or members of these groups are not connected to or 10 on the lines of your org or mission in any way." 11 That is what it says. It doesn't say investigate or 12 anything like that. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Well, let me ask you this, Mr. Oliver. I think 15 your testimony yesterday was that different groups get 16 different directives. 17 Do ethics groups get all of the directives that 18 OSA gets? 19 A No, they don't. But OSA gets everything OSA 20 wants. Within the organization, there were orders -- there 21 were orders that came down that would go to Ethics that we 22 would see, that we would get a copy of in the Department of 23 Special Affairs in Miami. 24 Q So what is the significance of this list to an OSA 25 member, regardless of what impact it might have or what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 195 1 directives would have been given to an ethics officer? 2 A Well, an ethics officer wouldn't -- it is directed 3 at an ethics officer in the routing, so that, as 4 Mr. Weinberg read into the record, if someone was connected 5 to one of these organizations and it became an ethics matter 6 for that person in the organization and they went to Ethics, 7 the ethics officer would go look at this list. That was his 8 purpose for having this document. 9 Our purposes were to have an identification of 10 enemy groups, suppressive people and suppressive groups 11 because these are the things directly related to the 12 statistics of an investigations officer in the Department of 13 Special Affairs in a Class IV org. 14 These are -- if there were four -- if there is an 15 S group -- I'll give you an example -- identified in here 16 and there were four locations in Miami, let's say, then 17 those four things appear on my stats every week until 18 handled. So if their name is on this list, of course how 19 did I know there were four S groups? I can look on this 20 list and see there are four S groups and I know that they 21 are part of -- they are part of my subjects I have to 22 investigate. 23 Q So I guess based on the instructions given to you 24 as a member of OSA, this is the list of different groups and 25 different people that could be tricked, lied to or destroyed Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 196 1 as part of your responsibilities in OSA? 2 A That was -- it was my understanding -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form, your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 What could happen -- well, let's just not go 7 there. 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q How do you pick up stats off this list? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered. 12 He asked him yesterday about stats. 13 THE COURT: Right. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Then he explained it. 15 MR. LIROT: Well -- I didn't mean to interrupt. 16 THE COURT: Do you get different kinds of 17 points for this list? 18 THE WITNESS: You get different kind of 19 points if -- for example, when this list was handed 20 down, if there is something on this list not on your 21 stats, you know, and it affects you, if there is 22 something identified here that wouldn't be on the 23 list -- the way it actually worked is we were the 24 ones that identified these organizations in the 25 different orgs at the different levels in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 197 1 Scientology throughout OSA, and then they compiled a 2 list from those things. 3 So basically how it worked is the information 4 that we were supplying up the lines was used to help 5 compile this list. As information flows upward they 6 compiled it and it flowed all back down because I 7 wouldn't know of something going on in Michigan, for 8 example. But on this list there may be a group or 9 person from Michigan. However, if somebody from 10 Michigan happened to come into my area, I can look 11 on the list and see their name and say, okay, these 12 guys have been identified as an SP somewhere else. 13 He may not have been on my stat that week -- 14 THE COURT: What do you mean, your stat? 15 THE WITNESS: "Stat" is statistic. 16 THE COURT: No, I know that. And I know you 17 told us yesterday about stats are important and -- 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 THE COURT: -- you need to make certain stats. 20 And the more you make, the better. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. 22 THE COURT: What do you mean, there is a stat 23 on this list? 24 THE WITNESS: There is not a stat on the list. 25 The individuals -- for example, if there were five Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 198 1 individuals that were -- I determined to be 2 suppressive and they were in the area in Miami, for 3 example, where I was an investigations officer -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: -- those five peoples' names 6 would be on the list. That list would be five 7 people. And the stat might have -- like it would 8 have a 0 at the top -- it would be an upside-down 9 stat, a 0 at the top and, let's say, 10 at the 10 bottom. So if the stat is going up toward 0, that 11 is a good thing, the stat is going up and the goal 12 is to be 0, to have 0 suppressive people in your 13 vicinity. 14 So if a suppressive group or individual was on 15 this list -- or -- or I compiled the information of 16 five suppressive people, I would send the 17 information up and it would appear on a list like 18 this. 19 However, if someone from another area, let's 20 say John Smith, to make up a name, from California, 21 moves to Miami, now I have to add John Smith to my 22 stats as another person that is suppressive. So I 23 now have six suppressive people in my vicinity, so 24 my stat goes down because there are more suppressive 25 people in my area. So as more suppressive people Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 199 1 get near or affect the organization, it is worse for 2 the people in investigation than in OSA because that 3 means they are not being effective in stopping the 4 people. So it is a bad thing. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q How do you -- for the sake of example, the 8 Catholic Apostolic Church & Monastery is a stat for your 9 org. How do you get that removed as a suppressive person or 10 get it off the list? 11 MR. WEINBERG: I object to this -- to this -- I 12 object to the form, I object to this whole line. 13 How do you get it removed? 14 THE COURT: I might object to what does it have 15 to do with this case. I mean, that is a question 16 for you, Mr. Lirot. 17 MR. LIROT: Judge, again, this goes to the 18 policies, practices and customs of OSA. 19 THE COURT: Well, it might be of some -- I 20 mean, how do you get it off your list for the -- 21 whatever it is -- Catholic -- I mean, why don't you 22 ask him how to get Bob Minton off the list? 23 MR. WEINBERG: I object to that particular 24 question because he wasn't there. 25 MR. LIROT: Then I guess I'll just use an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 200 1 individual on the list. 2 THE COURT: There you go. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Assuming that Bob Minton is on the list of 5 suppressive persons, which I guess subsequent to 6 Mr. Oliver's departure from OSA is probably the subject of 7 judicial notice -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me? 9 THE COURT: If an individual is on the list, 10 how do you get them off the list? 11 THE WITNESS: The person is handled. 12 THE COURT: How do you handle it? 13 THE WITNESS: Let's say if there is an 14 identified group on here, you get them shut down and 15 wiped out of existence. 16 THE COURT: I'm not talking about a group. I'm 17 talking about an individual. 18 THE WITNESS: You get them to stop attacking 19 the organization. They move away -- like, for 20 example, if John Smith were a suppressive in Miami, 21 and enough was -- he was being investigated and it 22 was upsetting or bothering him, and the guy moved to 23 Canada, then he's off my list, he's no longer one of 24 my stats, he becomes Canada Scientology problems. 25 It wouldn't be a Miami Scientology problem, it would Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 201 1 be off my list. 2 THE COURT: On somebody else's list? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. If he continues to commit 4 suppressive acts or identifies suppressive acts as 5 Scientology identifies them against the 6 organization. 7 THE COURT: So to get him to move, you might 8 picket him? 9 THE WITNESS: I never -- I never picketed 10 anyone. 11 THE COURT: What did you do to get somebody off 12 the list? 13 THE WITNESS: We investigated the individual. 14 Mmm, we followed the individual. We did 15 surveillance on the individual. Mmm -- 16 THE COURT: Did noisy investigation? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I did noisy 18 investigations. I looked at people's credit reports 19 and their personal phone bills. 20 THE COURT: The garbage? 21 THE WITNESS: Had investigators digging through 22 their garbage to find any information on them we 23 could garner to use in intelligence. 24 THE COURT: You use that frequent flier trick 25 you told us about yesterday to find out when they Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 202 1 were coming to an airport? 2 THE WITNESS: Personally? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 THE WITNESS: No. It was done in front of me 5 so I could see how it was done. 6 THE COURT: Okay. And the idea is to get them 7 to either stop what they're doing or move so they're 8 not your problem? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, that would have been at my 10 level in the Miami org when I was in Miami, yes, 11 that is what I did there. 12 When I went to Los Angeles, I was involved in 13 other things of higher magnitude. I was involved in 14 surveillance. We were involved in calling -- 15 getting -- obtaining copy of someone's phone bill 16 and calling the people on their phone bill to see 17 who they were communicating with. 18 Mmm, this is the part I have trouble with, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: How did you get the phone bill? 21 THE WITNESS: That was handed to me by 22 Mr. Shaw. 23 THE COURT: What, the phone bill? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Then you were told to call these Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 203 1 people? 2 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I was given the phone -- I 3 was given that and a credit record on an individual 4 who I won't name. And we were told to try and 5 identify who these -- who this person had been 6 calling based on a phone number list given. 7 THE COURT: With the phone numbers? 8 THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 THE COURT: Okay. That is more relevant. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Well, would somebody like Mr. Dandar be an SP? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection to the question, 13 would somebody like Mr. Dandar be an SP. 14 THE COURT: Ask him if Mr. Dandar would be an 15 SP. 16 A Yes, Mr. Dandar would be an SP. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Prince would be an SP? 18 THE WITNESS: Mr. Prince would be an SP. 19 Ms. Greenway would be an SP. I believe that lady in 20 the back would be an SP. Mr. Lirot -- 21 THE COURT: I don't know this lady, who she is. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know who she is. 23 THE COURT: I don't know if she would or not. 24 THE WITNESS: We met before. 25 I would be an SP. Anyone that would have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 204 1 anything adverse to Scientology would be an SP 2 because they would be in some way impeding or 3 inhibiting the expansion and growth of the 4 organization and putting the beliefs, individuals, 5 policies of Scientology in disrepute or to the 6 scrutiny of the public. That would be -- you would 7 be considered an SP. 8 THE COURT: Me? No. 9 THE WITNESS: You might be considered an SP, 10 your Honor, deciding -- depending how you rule. 11 THE COURT: I doubt that, but -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I don't even find 13 this funny, to tell you the truth. I don't think it 14 is amusing. 15 THE COURT: Maybe you don't find it funny. But 16 I think it is interesting to know who is an SP in 17 this courtroom and what might happen. I don't think 18 I'm an SP and I don't think I would be if I ruled in 19 a certain way. 20 I'll bet these critics would -- each and every 21 one would tell me I probably could be on a list. 22 You wouldn't find that funny. They would say it was 23 true. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I was talking about the comment 25 about you I didn't find funny. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 205 1 THE COURT: Okay. But people would differ on 2 that is what I'm telling you. 3 MR. WEINBERG: I imagine they might have 4 some -- the people that are working against 5 Scientology might have some views of me and Mr. Shaw 6 and Mr. -- 7 THE COURT: No question about that. 8 MR. WEINBERG: -- Mr. Fugate. 9 THE COURT: And if they use the term SP, you 10 would be one. And Mr. Shaw would be one. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I think -- 12 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman would be one. 13 Mr. Fugate would be one. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I think there would be a little 15 more colorful language that would be used toward me. 16 MR. LIROT: I don't know of anybody doing the D 17 line on those folks, though, Judge. There is a big 18 difference there. 19 THE COURT: What is a D line? 20 THE WITNESS: A D line, that is when you send 21 an investigator to go into somebody's garbage. 22 A C line is when you pull a credit report. A D 23 line is garbage. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q If Mr. Dandar got disqualified off this case, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 206 1 would that work up some stats? Would that get him off the 2 SP list? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor, to the 4 form of the question. Objection to the question. 5 It just -- it is pure -- 6 THE COURT: I'll allow it. I don't think the 7 form is objectionable because I think the answer is 8 yes or no. I don't know whether this witness is 9 capable of answering that. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It is pure speculation on the 11 part of this witness, first of all. 12 THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not. Did 13 you ever deal with any lawyers that were involved 14 against Scientology? 15 THE WITNESS: Did I deal with them personally? 16 THE COURT: Yes. 17 THE WITNESS: No, I never dealt with them 18 personally. I have seen attorneys that were 19 identified as SP because they were opposing counsel. 20 THE COURT: How did they get handled? By that 21 I mean what removed them from the list? 22 THE WITNESS: I don't know that they were 23 removed? They weren't removed from the list when I 24 was there. 25 THE COURT: So you are incapable -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 207 1 THE WITNESS: How to get someone off? I just 2 have seen them on the list. I haven't seen them get 3 off. 4 THE COURT: He can't answer that. He doesn't 5 know the answer. He never worked with lawyers. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 7 172 into evidence. 8 THE COURT: It will be received. 9 The Manual of Justice we already have, don't 10 we? 11 MR. DANDAR: I believe so, yes. 12 MR. SHAW: Yes, we do. 13 THE COURT: I'm pretty sure we do. 14 MR. LIROT: If it is already in evidence, 15 Judge, I'll just introduce it as being part of this 16 packet, it is already identified. And I'll move on. 17 THE COURT: It will be received as part of this 18 packet again. But I know it is in evidence. So 19 when you object to stolen documents, this is one 20 that is in already. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Again, it wasn't -- the 22 objection wasn't to necessarily the particular 23 policies. It was the manner in which they were 24 gotten. 25 THE COURT: I understand. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 208 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Mr. Oliver, I'm going to hand you what has been 3 marked as Exhibit 174 and ask if you can identify that for 4 the Court. 5 A Yes, this is the -- this is the certificate, 6 "Church of Scientology Qualifications Division, Department 7 of Certification & Awards." And it says, "Frank Oliver, 8 Staff Status 2." And it is dated 18 April, 1991. 9 Q Do you have a series of different commendations 10 like this that you received from the Church? 11 A Mmm, this isn't -- a commendation would be not a 12 correct description of this. This is actually a certificate 13 at the completion of a course called Staff Status 2, which 14 is a permanent staff position. 15 This -- there are different staff statuses. When 16 you first join staff, your status is 0, then Staff Status 1, 17 then Staff Status 2. When you get to Staff Status 2, you 18 are considered a permanent staff member. And I guess your 19 pay is affected by what your particular staff status is. 20 And as you do administrative or executive courses in 21 Scientology, there are staff statuses above this. 22 In most of the -- or in the particular 23 organization that I was in, most of the staff were Staff 24 Status 2, except for some senior executives that had done 25 executive training called OEC FEBC. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 209 1 THE COURT: It must be late on Friday because, 2 frankly, I'm getting to the point -- 3 MR. LIROT: It is 4 o'clock on the dot, Judge. 4 THE COURT: It is that time of the day. Go 5 ahead, let's see if we can get through the 6 documents. 7 MR. LIROT: Very well, Judge. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Mr. Oliver, I want to show you what we'll mark 10 into evidence as 175. 11 MR. LIROT: I would like to move 174 into 12 evidence. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I have no problem with that, 14 Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Oliver, identify 175 for the Court, please. 18 A It is actually two pages. These are copies of 19 telexes that I received. 20 The first one says -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, this is 22 clearly a document that should not have been 23 removed. This is with regard to a specific case. 24 THE COURT: Give me just a minute to read it. 25 What is DSA again? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 210 1 THE WITNESS: Department of Special Affairs. 2 THE COURT: Okay, I remember now. When 3 something is written "Dear Sir," who is that, who is 4 sir? 5 THE WITNESS: The person you are sending it to. 6 THE COURT: Well, tell me who that is. Is that 7 somebody within the OSA branch? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. The officers in the Office 9 of Special Affairs address themselves as sir when -- 10 you know, when they are sending messages back and 11 forth. 12 In this particular case this came to the DSA 13 Miami -- it came, actually, to me, the second one. 14 Is that the one you are looking at, the second page? 15 THE COURT: Right. 16 THE WITNESS: That one came to me from west 17 Canada. You put "Dear sir." They refer to officers 18 as sir whether they are male or female. If it went 19 to the DSA, in my particular org, she was a woman, 20 it would still say "Dear sir." 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: These were both to me directly. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q What was the purpose in sending -- 25 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I'm reading this. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 211 1 MR. WEINBERG: My objection -- 2 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 3 THE COURT: I need to decide whether this is 4 privileged and it should not be admitted. 5 It would appear to me this would be something 6 that would be a confidential document, Counselor. 7 MR. LIROT: Well, I don't know that it is, 8 Judge, and I would like to explore that with 9 Mr. Oliver for a moment, if you'll indulge me just 10 for a second. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, I -- I have 12 some real strong objections to this. This is as if 13 I went into Mr. -- 14 THE COURT: I do, too, if it is confidential. 15 He said he wanted to explore that. I suppose it 16 would be whether or not he was mailed this after he 17 went home or it was somehow or another published 18 outside the Church. 19 MR. WEINBERG: This is with regard to -- to 20 litigation matters. 21 THE COURT: I agree. He said he didn't think 22 it was confidential. He wanted to explore it. So 23 we have to see if there is some basis upon which it 24 wouldn't become confidential. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And secondly, he had no Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 212 1 authorization from his post, when he left the 2 Church, to take documents from -- documents like 3 this from case files. He had no authorization to do 4 that. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 6 MR. LIROT: My question will focus on one 7 sentence of the second page of this exhibit. And it 8 starts six lines up. "We feel." 9 Judge, I won't say anything specific for the 10 record but I'll read this one sentence. "We feel he 11 may be planning on moving back to the U.S." 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I object to reading 13 anything from this document. He has no 14 authorization to take this document, just as my 15 employee couldn't take something from a file or -- 16 or yours, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'm trying to think of what this 18 is, what the privilege is here. I mean, this is the 19 Church. This is not an attorney. Come on. 20 MR. WEINBERG: No, these are people -- this is 21 the client. In other words, the Church is the 22 client. OSA Legal is the client that is dealing 23 with lawyers. I mean, the first one, you can see 24 what the matter is. And you have heard that -- 25 THE COURT: I'm still trying to think of what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 213 1 the privilege is. We have privileges: Priest 2 penitent, accountant privileges, attorney-client 3 privileges. What is the privilege you are claiming? 4 Husband-wife? What is it? Attorney-client? 5 MR. WEINBERG: It would be the attorney-client 6 privilege. But beyond that, Mr. Oliver signed a -- 7 signed a contract, when he was with -- with the 8 Church of Scientology. 9 And part of the agreement was: "I agree to 10 maintain the confidentiality of all communications, 11 whether written or oral, all documents, all files, 12 all mailing lists and all other material, collective 13 material which may come into my knowledge or 14 possession during my service as a staff member of 15 the Church or any other Scientology organization. 16 "In other words, without limiting the 17 generality of the foregoing, I agree not to remove 18 materials from the premises where I perform and not 19 to disclose the contents or get copies of materials 20 coming into my possession except in the ordinary 21 course of performing as a staff member. 22 "Upon conclusion of my service as a staff 23 member, I agree to return all materials given to me 24 in the course of my service and not to disclose any 25 information to anyone without the prior written Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 214 1 consent of the Church of Scientology." 2 THE COURT: So obviously he violated that. 3 MR. WEINBERG: He has. 4 THE COURT: Now, what is it then -- we have to 5 come up with a privilege or -- that somehow or 6 another if it is stolen and he has violated an 7 agreement that it can't be used in court or 8 something. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, how else can we protect 10 ourselves? 11 THE COURT: I don't know. 12 MR. WEINBERG: So that means that -- 13 THE COURT: You can sue him. I know that. 14 Remember when this one fellow wanted to come in and 15 he was violating some agreement, and I told him -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I do remember. 17 THE COURT: -- that you could sue him, but I 18 wasn't going to keep him from testifying if he had 19 relevant information? 20 MR. WEINBERG: I do. But I also remember being 21 accused -- my client being accused by Mr. Dandar of 22 having gone into his office and taken -- remember -- 23 some file -- and that is what we filed a motion -- 24 saying we planted it in the FDLE offices. 25 Well, it is no different than taking case files Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 215 1 out of the legal part of the Church of Scientology. 2 What that office does, Mr. Oliver said, is work on 3 legal cases. They are the client. 4 I mean, you -- I have no right to take Dell 5 Liebreich's files. Mr. Dandar has no right to -- to 6 take my files. And this man has no right to take 7 our files on legal cases and then produce them in a 8 lawsuit -- 9 THE COURT: My question, is it a legal case? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Where there is a suppressive person 12 out there, the Church of Scientology is 13 investigating this person, is that a legal case? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Dr. Geertz, the first one, is a 15 legal case. 16 MR. LIROT: We let that go. 17 THE COURT: I'm talking about the second one. 18 MR. LIROT: We never brought up the name, 19 Judge. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. I'm not done. I'm 21 sorry. 22 MR. LIROT: Take your time. 23 MR. WEINBERG: What am I supposed to do? I 24 don't know. I just see this document. What, I have 25 to go do research now to figure out from 1991 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 216 1 whether this document that was stolen from us is 2 part of a legal case? 3 It is certainly part of OSA Legal. It says a 4 case on the document. 5 THE COURT: I'm not sure if it is or not. I 6 hate to tell you this, Counselor, but this is rather 7 unique. This is a church -- a church investigating 8 someone they call a suppressive person. Sending a 9 church member out to investigate. I don't know if 10 in the traditional sense that is a lawyer-client 11 privilege or not. 12 MR. WEINBERG: It can't -- 13 THE COURT: In the state of Florida, we have a 14 various number of privileges that we recognize. The 15 only one that would come close would have to be 16 lawyer-client, or -- or -- or accountant or 17 something. 18 MR. WEINBERG: And Mr. Oliver said that they 19 generally work through private investigators, 20 lawyers and things like that. 21 And in this particular document it says, "We 22 are currently working on a very hot case here in 23 Canada." It says case in Canada. 24 THE COURT: Who is the client? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, the client is the Church Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 217 1 of Scientology. 2 THE COURT: Then who is the lawyer? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, how do I know? 4 THE COURT: There is -- usually a lawyer and 5 client are two different people. The lawyer is the 6 Church and the client is the Church. 7 I'll keep it out. Quite frankly, I think it 8 comes in. I think your action is against him. I 9 don't think there is an attorney-client or priest 10 penitent privilege here. I think this is kind of an 11 unusual thing. I'm not saying there isn't. And 12 I'll give you a chance to research it. But I think 13 that you are just assuming, just as clear as a bell. 14 And I'm telling you it is not. 15 Research it. And come back and supply me the 16 answer. For now I'll keep it out. But you'll have 17 to find me a privilege or something that says that 18 when someone leaves a corporation -- I assume he was 19 working for a corporation -- and steals something 20 from it, it can't then be used in a court case. And 21 that maybe the law, too. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, the case of -- 23 THE COURT: I don't want to hear a case 24 tonight. I will keep it out tonight. Find me some 25 law that says that it can't be used and I won't let Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 218 1 you use it. That gives you a chance to do research, 2 as well. 3 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 4 THE COURT: And then we'll litigate that. 5 Okay? 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, 20-second response. 7 THE COURT: I'm used to having two different 8 parties, a lawyer and a party. Here we have the 9 same party. 10 MR. WEINBERG: I guess we don't really know 11 because -- I don't know, when he says a hot case in 12 Canada, I assume there is a lawyer in Canada and a 13 client in Canada, and that the lawyer in Canada 14 wants the client in Canada to get help from a client 15 in Miami with regard to a hot case in Canada. 16 THE COURT: It could be. Maybe you need a 17 little more time -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Obviously, I don't even know 19 what it is. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't think every person 21 listed on Exhibit 172 represents pending litigation. 22 And I think Mr. Oliver's testimony was that his 23 responsibilities went to SPs, not just pending 24 litigation. 25 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what this is. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 219 1 I'll give you permission to speak with him over the 2 weekend about what this is. 3 MR. LIROT: All right. 4 THE COURT: What this was, as best he 5 remembers. So you can go research it. Go look and 6 see, as best you can, and research it. And whatever 7 it is -- 8 MR. LIROT: Well -- 9 THE COURT: -- we'll have to deal with it. It 10 isn't that big a deal, anyway, to tell you the 11 truth. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, what is a big deal to 13 us -- 14 THE COURT: Don't misunderstand. I'm talking 15 about to Mr. Lirot. Not to you. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 17 MR. LIROT: Understood. 18 THE COURT: If you were going to read -- you 19 know, I just don't know it is that big a deal. But 20 research it. I'm not letting it in right now mostly 21 because if I let it in, it becomes public record, it 22 might hit the Internet by the weekend. 23 MR. DANDAR: Not from the plaintiff. 24 THE COURT: Well, you know what, one side or 25 another put it on the Internet. There is a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 220 1 50 percent chance it came from you, you know. You 2 said you didn't. Guess what? They said they 3 didn't. Somebody is lying to me. Right? 4 MR. DANDAR: That's right. 5 THE COURT: All right. So there is a 6 50 percent chance, Mr. Dandar, that you are lying. 7 So all I can do is sit up here and know that 8 there are two people that are getting a disk, you -- 9 you personally, and somebody over there, Mr. -- who 10 is getting it? 11 MR. WEINBERG: Us. 12 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon. 13 MR. MOXON: I am. I can guarantee we are not 14 putting it on. 15 THE COURT: Well, you know what, the deal would 16 be perhaps you put it on the Internet to make it 17 look like he's putting it on the Internet. 18 MR. MOXON: We didn't, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Of course you say you didn't. But, 20 look, he said he didn't either. Guess what, there 21 are only two of them. Somebody releases this every 22 day to the Internet. 23 MR. MOXON: I just want to point out one thing, 24 Mr. Dandar asserted a privilege not to tell us who 25 he gave it to. So I don't know how he can assert a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 221 1 privilege and say "I didn't do it." But where does 2 this privilege come up? 3 THE COURT: Well, he said he didn't do it. 4 Who do you release these things to? Who do you 5 give them to? 6 MR. DANDAR: People who work for me. 7 THE COURT: Do they put them on the Internet? 8 MR. DANDAR: No way. They swore they would 9 never put it on the Internet by what they tell me. 10 THE COURT: And I'm sure you believe whoever it 11 is that is using them that they don't. But I'm 12 telling you somebody told me. I have not seen them 13 yet because I don't go on these Internet sites. 14 Somebody tells me they are on the Internet every 15 day. Somebody is lying to me. As I sit here in 16 this courtroom, as I sit here trying to figure out 17 who is lying, somebody, as I'm looking at you all, 18 is lying. I haven't a clue who it is. 19 MR. WEINBERG: The last witness said she saw 20 them on the Internet. 21 THE COURT: I know. Well, yes. And, besides 22 that, you-all told me they were on the Internet. So 23 I don't disbelieve you. I'll just saying I'm 24 reluctant to go to the Internet, quite frankly, 25 because I'm afraid there is material on there that, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 222 1 if I saw it, could bias me. Frankly, I don't think 2 there is anything on that alt.religion.scientology 3 that could bias me, but I just don't go there. I 4 have got plenty to read in court without going 5 reading on the Internet. But I believe it is there. 6 Which tells me that unless my court reporter -- 7 Madam Court Reporter, you are not putting this stuff 8 on the Internet, are you? 9 THE REPORTER: No, ma'am. 10 THE COURT: Would you know how? 11 THE REPORTER: No. 12 THE COURT: I'm assuming she wouldn't or she 13 would lose her job real fast. 14 So if somebody is lying to me -- and it is just 15 terribly frustrating because all I ever get is "Not 16 me, not me." Well, somebody is doing it. And I 17 wish it would stop, although as I -- as I said 18 before, I'm not going to make too much of a to-do 19 about it because this is a public courtroom, and if 20 there are people that have an interest and they 21 can't come to the courtroom and they want to see 22 what we're doing, I'm not ashamed of what we're 23 doing. 24 But I'm reluctant now -- see, I would normally 25 just say this goes in and then I'll remove it. Now Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 223 1 I'm a little reluctant, so I granted -- granted 2 this. But, I mean, by the time I let it in, people 3 start reading from it, then it is too late. 4 So I'm keeping it out for now. You understand 5 if you want it in, you better raise it again. 6 MR. LIROT: I will, Judge. 7 THE COURT: You bring it up, with some law. 8 And, obviously, they are raising a privilege, they 9 are saying this is clearly a document that was taken 10 that he had no right to take, number one. 11 Number two, that it somehow is a -- well, it 12 would be confidential. But the question now is now 13 that I have it, is there something that keeps it 14 out, either a privilege or the fact it may have been 15 a stolen document? 16 Did you steal this? 17 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: How did you get it? 19 THE WITNESS: It was given to me. 20 THE COURT: By whom? 21 THE WITNESS: Mmm, it went from the telex 22 operator, to my senior, Tracy Pase, then it was put 23 in my "In" box. 24 THE COURT: So you got it at the Church? I 25 mean you got it while working for the Church? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 224 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, I got it in my office, yes. 2 THE COURT: Well, when you left the Church, did 3 you take it with you? 4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. In fact, that 5 document was found -- Mmm -- approximately five 6 years after I left the Church. 7 THE COURT: Where -- where did it become found? 8 In your house? Or what? 9 THE WITNESS: I had moved, your Honor, and I 10 had documents that had been given to me that were 11 just given to me. They said, "Here, this is yours." 12 THE COURT: Who gave them to you? 13 THE WITNESS: Tracy Pase. 14 THE COURT: Oh. So Tracy just handed this over 15 to you and said, "Here, you might want this in a few 16 years"? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, it was in a file with my 18 hat pack and issues that I had. 19 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to believe if she 20 gave it to you, that it was in error. I don't think 21 she meant to give this to you. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, she gave it to me because 23 it was addressed to me. It says, "Invest Off., DSA 24 Miami." 25 THE COURT: Listen here. It may be Friday Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 225 1 afternoon. It may be late. There was no thought in 2 my mind, and surely not in your mind, that whatever 3 it was you were doing within the Church of 4 Scientology, that they meant for you to keep this 5 stuff when you left. 6 THE WITNESS: It was not intentional that I 7 kept this, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Fine. Did you give it back after 9 you found it? 10 THE WITNESS: Five years later? No, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. So the deal is you sort 13 of knew that you weren't to have this, if it was 14 given to you it was a mistake. Right? 15 THE WITNESS: No. It was given to me as part 16 of -- at the time, this was part of my job, what I 17 was doing. And it was in the same file with my hat 18 pack. It wasn't something I intentionally said, 19 "Oh, I'm going to take this." That was never the 20 case, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Did you hear what I said? Please 22 don't think of me as an idiot here, Mr. Oliver. 23 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Because you would be making a huge 25 mistake. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 226 1 Fine. You are saying you didn't steal it? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: When it showed up, you had to know 4 that this wasn't something that the Church meant for 5 you to have. Right? 6 THE WITNESS: I really -- I saw a lot of this 7 get thrown away. After somebody read it, they would 8 throw it away or tear it up. 9 This was not a case file or anything. This was 10 something that was a piece of paper handed to me. 11 This was not taken out of anyplace or anywhere. I 12 saw most of this stuff get read, shredded or thrown 13 in the garbage. It didn't have any importance to 14 me. So I -- 15 THE COURT: Read, shred or thrown in the 16 garbage? The deal was most of these things that you 17 got over a two-year period, when you were done with 18 them you either shredded them, threw them in the 19 garbage can or disposed of them, you didn't take 20 them home and make a little file of them. Right? 21 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. So it would stand to 23 reason that he knew he wasn't supposed to have 24 these. I don't care what he says. So I'm not going 25 to say he stole them -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 227 1 MR. LIROT: We'll research that. 2 THE COURT: They showed up. But to my mind it 3 is clear that this was a -- if he got it, he 4 shouldn't have had it. This would be something the 5 Church would not have wanted somebody to take with 6 them for the very reason we're dealing with here. 7 Really, nobody should want this. This stuff 8 gets outside, this might be figured out what is 9 going on, it could be harmful. So you research 10 that. 11 MR. LIROT: I understand the point, Judge. And 12 based on that, I won't push the issue. But -- but 13 Exhibit 176 pertains to that, as well. 14 I'll give that to Mr. Oliver, and then we'll 15 address that in the same context as the other two 16 exhibits. 17 THE COURT: All right. I'm writing "not in 18 evidence for now," I'm writing. And I'll count on 19 you, if you want to get it in, you come in with some 20 memo or some case or some something. You-all better 21 be ready for it, as well. 22 MR. LIROT: I will, Judge. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, I thought I heard him say 24 he's not going to push it. I don't know what he 25 meant. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 228 1 MR. LIROT: Not today. I'll research it. All 2 I said was Exhibit 176. 3 THE COURT: Okay. This is another one of 4 these, Number 176? 5 MR. LIROT: Right. 176 is legally what we 6 discussed with the other two pages that I guess are 7 175. So the legal issues would be the same for that 8 document, as well. 9 THE COURT: Let me look at it. It sounds like 10 some directive from a lawyer to an investigator. It 11 has case numbers. I mean, if I were you -- what do 12 the letters "DA" mean? 13 THE WITNESS: Dead agent. 14 THE COURT: Is that an abbreviation, or is that 15 a person's name, the last line of this Number 176? 16 "Reversal, DA." Does that mean anything? 17 THE WITNESS: Dead agent. 18 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Just so the record is even 20 clearer, I think this one absolutely is clearly 21 attorney-client -- leaving aside the fact that 22 Mr. Oliver wasn't entitled to have it, but the 23 plaintiff's lawyer shouldn't even be looking at 24 documents that came out of legal files of the Church 25 of Scientology, however it is that it came into Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 229 1 their possession. 2 THE COURT: You know what the problem is, is -- 3 I'm going to tell you something. Frankly, you-all 4 never should have had the communication of 5 Mr. Dandar to his consultant. But not only do you 6 have it, you used it. 7 This is that kind of case. That is why I'm 8 saying at this point I would agree with you. You 9 shouldn't have that. They shouldn't have this. You 10 used it. You got it in. The question is does this 11 get kept out. It gets kept out if it is legal. 12 MR. MOXON: There was litigation with this 13 Cynthia Kisser; in fact, there were more than 20 14 pieces of litigation involving her over a period of 15 years, including this time period. 16 THE COURT: All right, well, you-all research 17 it over the weekend. Okay? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, the instruction -- 19 or the -- the statement that you made to Mr. Lirot 20 that he could talk to Mr. Oliver is just limited to 21 this one issue? 22 THE COURT: Yes, it is limited to these things 23 that -- so he can tell Mr. -- so that he can do 24 whatever research he needs to do. You-all have 25 files. Presumably you can dig up and find out what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 230 1 they are. He would have no way of knowing, without 2 asking him. And I'm trying just to narrow the 3 research. 4 Okay, here we go. You know, you said you 5 needed to leave, Counselor, by 4 o'clock. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm making a later flight, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: Today? 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Okay. What time? 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: Six or eight, whatever. There 12 are different planes. Thank you, though, for 13 reminding me. 14 THE COURT: Yes, well, I thought you were 15 running a little late. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 17 MR. WEINBERG: If he was going by four it would 18 be by bus. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Mr. Oliver, I handed you a document we marked as 21 Exhibit 177. Can you identify that? It is a composite 22 exhibit. 23 A Yes, this is a newsletter I received -- 24 THE COURT: You know what, all I'll do is 25 finish going through these documents, so you can Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 231 1 probably leave if you want. 2 This is a news release from some Time Magazine, 3 "Introduction to Scientology Ethics." I think I 4 already have that whole book. And -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: See, we don't have the 6 documents. We don't know. But if there is some 7 legal issue that comes up, I would sort of like 8 Mr. Lieberman to be here. 9 THE COURT: I tell you what I'll do, you take a 10 look at these five documents. That is as far as I'm 11 going to go today. I don't think these are going to 12 be quite the same type of legal issues. There may 13 be other issues. But once these either get in or 14 don't get in, I'm going to quit for the day, because 15 I'm tired. 16 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 17 THE COURT: It has been a long week. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: I don't know what the purpose 19 of the Time Magazine article is. 20 THE COURT: I don't, either. But it surely 21 isn't a First Amendment issue, I wanted to tell you. 22 MR. WEINBERG: You mean I have to come up with 23 the legal argument? 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: It is probably some sort of -- 25 what is the word -- hearsay or -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 232 1 THE COURT: It is something. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- something. Congress passed 3 a new law regarding hearsay? Is that in the First 4 Amendment -- 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Mr. Oliver, identify Exhibit 177 for the Court. 7 A It's the -- these -- this is a composite of 8 different things that I received while I was a member of the 9 Cult Awareness Network. This is -- 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry, while you were a member 11 of the -- 12 A Cult Awareness Network. When I was still in the 13 Church of Scientology, I was a member of the Cult Awareness 14 Network, as well. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q All right. 17 A This is a letter from -- the first one, this is 18 basically information that is sent to members of the Cult 19 Awareness Network about their activities and what is going 20 on. The Cult Awareness Network -- 21 THE COURT: What number are we on here? 22 MR. LIROT: 177. 23 THE COURT: I jumped ahead here two. I'm on 24 179. 177 and -- 25 THE WITNESS: It looks like this, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 233 1 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. I have got them. Go 2 ahead. 3 A Okay. This is -- this is -- this is a newsletter 4 they send out, and along with some additional letters sent 5 to members of the Cult Awareness Network. 6 The Cult Awareness Network was an organization 7 that I was a member of to -- at the time, it was an 8 organization that provided information on dangerous cults in 9 the country. And at the time they were being subjected to 10 extraordinary pressure and tactics by -- 11 THE COURT: You were an infiltrator, is that 12 it? 13 THE WITNESS: In a small way, yes. 14 THE COURT: This was documents you got from 15 them? 16 THE WITNESS: No, something I got directly 17 being a member, sent directly to my home, as being 18 in the Cult Awareness Network. It's a news flier. 19 This is a news release. And these are letters 20 sent to all of the members. And this talks about 21 their battles and what they were dealing with having 22 to do with the harassment from the Church of 23 Scientology. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Then I would object to this one 25 as being utter hearsay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 234 1 THE COURT: Sure seems like it. 2 MR. LIROT: I was going to ask him about his 3 participation in OSA and their dealings with the 4 Cult Awareness Network. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Do you agree that this can't 6 come into evidence? 7 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. I think it can come 8 into evidence for the purpose that he was 9 infiltrating this group and signed up, not as a 10 sincere member of the Cult Awareness Network, but as 11 a member of OSA with the assignment to lie, trick or 12 destroy the Cult Awareness Network. 13 THE COURT: I don't know if that is true or 14 not. He hasn't testified to that. 15 This is hearsay. It doesn't come in, I don't 16 think. 17 Tell us what you did with this Cult Awareness 18 Network, as a member of OSA. 19 THE WITNESS: In the summer of 1991 I was asked 20 to go -- as a member of the Office of Special 21 Affairs, I was asked to go to Los Angeles to 22 participate in the formation of the CAN unit, CAN 23 being abbreviation for the Cult Awareness Network. 24 The stated goal was CAN had been identified as 25 an SP organization that was causing Scientology Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 235 1 considerable amount of problems. Therefore, it had 2 to be destroyed. 3 I went -- 4 THE COURT: Is that the word they use, 5 "destroyed"? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 7 A I -- I went to Los Angeles. And while there, I 8 participated in activities of investigation on members of 9 the Cult Awareness Network, as well as surveillance of 10 people that were affiliated with the Cult Awareness Network, 11 former members of Scientology and individuals that were 12 deemed to be suppressive by the Office of Special Affairs. 13 It was in Los Angeles where I first met Mr. Ben 14 Shaw, Mr. Moxon, Joe Neal O'Rielly (phonetic) and other 15 members of the Office of Special Affairs, Toni Chrambanis, 16 the same name I said the other day. 17 These were individuals that were higher up than -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. You 19 asked him what did he do. And now he's going into a 20 narrative of all of the people that he met out 21 there. You asked him what he did and he explained 22 it. So -- 23 THE COURT: Well, I think all he did was 24 explain how he got to Los Angeles. 25 What did you do then? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 236 1 THE WITNESS: When I arrived in Los Angeles I 2 was taken to the Cedars complex called the PAC, 3 P-A-C, base. There I was shown where I was going to 4 sleep, and I was to work in the Office of Special 5 Affairs in establishing the CAN unit, which had an 6 investigation side and a public relations side. 7 And there I was given assignments to 8 investigate individuals targeted by Scientology as 9 suppressives, and the stated goal was to complete 10 the destruction of CAN. 11 THE COURT: What did you do? 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. Mmm, I -- I -- as I 13 mentioned earlier, I was given a credit report and 14 phone numbers on individuals. 15 THE COURT: I really don't want to get into all 16 of this until Monday. Somehow or another you think 17 this comes into evidence how? Just to verify the 18 fact that you got this in the mail? 19 MR. LIROT: And to show -- 20 THE COURT: Which shows there is some validity 21 to what he's saying, that he was -- did you 22 infiltrate this organization? 23 THE WITNESS: By becoming a member and 24 receiving information from it, yes. 25 THE COURT: Did you do this at the request of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 237 1 OSA in California? 2 THE WITNESS: Actually, at the request -- it 3 had come down the line. It was told to my senior, 4 Tracy Pase, who then told me, "You need to join CAN 5 and get information." 6 I paid for it out of my pocket. They didn't 7 give me money for it. So this is something they 8 said, "If you join CAN, you get some information, 9 that would be a good thing to help us." 10 So I joined CAN and I started getting this 11 information and reading. I was told it was all 12 lies. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, it is just a 14 mailing -- this is the public information that CAN 15 was putting out. CAN was obviously in litigation 16 with and -- you know, I don't think it is 17 relevant -- litigation with Scientology. They had 18 nasty things to say about Scientology and 19 Scientology wasn't too happy with CAN. This is just 20 their hearsay, whatever criticism of -- 21 THE COURT: I'll agree with you and I don't 22 think it is factual and I don't think it is admitted 23 for the truth. 24 I do think that if he's indicating that he did 25 some work for this organization and that somehow he Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 238 1 infiltrated it and he's telling us he got this 2 information as a member -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: I think what he said, he got on 4 the mailing list and they sent him what they send to 5 everybody which they circulated in the public. They 6 were very open about their criticism of Scientology. 7 That is all this is. I mean, if you read it -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to read it. So 9 I'm going to let it in but not for any purpose of 10 truth. 11 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 12 Judge, would you like to wait until Monday for 13 the explanation of his participation? 14 THE COURT: Yes. I want to know whether we can 15 get this in or not get it in. And on Monday he can 16 explain. As I said, I'm tired. I'm getting 17 crankier and crankier. 18 MR. LIROT: Do you want to stop here? 19 THE COURT: We'll stop here at this 177 if what 20 you want to do is have him discuss this now. 21 MR. LIROT: I think the CAN discussion is 22 probably going to be extensive. 23 THE COURT: All right, we're in recess until 24 Monday at 9 o'clock. 25 (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:45 p.m.) Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 239 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 12th day of July, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500