0090 1 2 3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 2 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG + 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 Testimony of Kennan Dandar. 17 DATE: July 17, 2002. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 22 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 23 24 25 0091 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MR. LEE FUGATE and 12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 15 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 17 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MR. ANTHONY J. BATTAGLIA and MR. STEPHEN WEIN 20 BATTAGLIA, ROSS 980 Tyrone Blvd. 21 St. Petersburg, FL Attorneys for Mr. Minton. 22 23 24 25 0092 1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS 2 PAGE LINE 3 CROSS Mr. Weinberg 114 2 Recess 184 13 4 Recess 245 12 Reporter's Certificate 246 1 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0093 1 2 (The proceedings were reconvened at 9:08 a.m.) 3 THE COURT: Good morning. 4 All right. Are we seeing the end, perhaps? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I think we're getting there. 6 THE COURT: All right. Couple of questions -- 7 a couple things came to mind last night. 8 Number one, you probably better put in your 9 closing, or on a separate paper, the discussion that 10 I indicated real early on, about having both the 11 complaint and the counterclaim heard at the same 12 time. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 THE COURT: You know, I have mixed feelings 15 about it. Still do. But I might as well hear from 16 you all. So put it somewhere. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Would you like it in like a 18 separate document? 19 THE COURT: Maybe. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I think that would make more 21 sense. 22 THE COURT: It makes more sense. It's really 23 not part of the closing argument. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 25 THE COURT: I think we can -- we can conclude a 0094 1 couple of things. 2 Number one, if the case -- if the complaint and 3 the counterclaim are tried together, Mr. Dandar, you 4 would have to address in that pleading how you would 5 be able to remain as, I believe -- especially in 6 light of Mr. Minton's allegations that tend to 7 support the counterclaim -- that you would be 8 probably a necessary witness for the estate, since 9 you refute his allegations. And therefore I would 10 assume -- there's a canon, I believe, that suggests 11 that if you're a material witness, you can't be the 12 lawyer. So you would certainly need to address that 13 as part of your -- 14 Regardless of the -- the first part of this, 15 that would certainly affect your ability to be 16 counsel on a consolidated claim, sort of. I call it 17 a consolidated claim for lack of a better word. 18 Let's see. The other thing I would need to 19 address, I suppose -- 20 And I think counsel for Mr. Minton is present? 21 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: As of now, I believe he's a 23 defendant. There may be some question of that. 24 MR. WEIN: He's a party to the counterclaim. 25 THE COURT: Right. He's a party to -- so as to 0095 1 the counterclaim, he's a defendant, I guess, then. 2 So -- 3 MR. DANDAR: Judge, may I interrupt you just a 4 minute, though? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 MR. DANDAR: There has not been a counterclaim 7 that has been filed yet with Mr. Minton named as a 8 defendant. All you've done is entered an order 9 adding him on, but for some reason -- I can only 10 surmise -- they have not filed that amended 11 counterclaim to add him in as -- as served. He 12 hasn't been served with any papers. 13 THE COURT: Well, he's filed a motion to 14 dismiss, so -- 15 MR. DANDAR: By mistake. 16 THE COURT: I don't know if it's by mistake or 17 not. It hasn't been withdrawn. 18 I'm assuming for now that he is a defendant to 19 this counterclaim. I've given them permission to 20 file it. I've added him. There's a motion to 21 dismiss pending. 22 So one of the things that I would assume is 23 that if this is consolidated, this case cannot be 24 tried in September; that it would have to be, at the 25 very earliest, January; number one, because it would 0096 1 be doubtful that Mr. Minton could be ready, since 2 his lawyers have just come on board, and they 3 certainly most likely would not be available for the 4 September date, if he's not dismissed out based on 5 the motion to dismiss. 6 So I'm going to assume that. 7 Would that be a good assumption? 8 MR. WEIN: That would be a fair assumption, 9 your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. WEIN: Would you like us to -- I almost 12 hate to volunteer to do this, but if you're going to 13 hear from the parties on whether or not the 14 counterclaim needs to be severed from the main 15 action -- 16 THE COURT: I think -- 17 MR. WEIN: -- would you like to hear from us 18 on -- 19 THE COURT: I would, yes. Because I think he 20 is a party to that. Therefore he would have a -- in 21 my mind. Now, maybe he needs -- an amended 22 counterclaim needs to be filed and he needs to be 23 named and he needs to be served and all that. But 24 that's going -- if it doesn't occur, I don't need to 25 worry about it. If it does occur, then I would need 0097 1 to hear from him as well. 2 MR. WEIN: Yes, ma'am. 3 THE COURT: So they've asked for three weeks 4 for a closing argument. Mr. Dandar has a week to 5 respond and they have a week to reply. So you might 6 consolidate with -- I don't care which side you 7 consolidate with, either at the end of the third 8 week after we're done -- 9 I'm going to figure that I want three weeks 10 from Friday, done or not. I mean, we're close 11 enough to being done where you all can get started, 12 whoever's going to -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: Would it be possible to be three 14 weeks from Monday instead of Friday? 15 THE COURT: You know, it helps me if I have it 16 three weeks from Friday. 'Cause I need the 17 weekends. That's when I get to work with this, so 18 three weeks from Friday. 'Cause I think we're going 19 to be done before Friday. I'm an eternal optimist. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm eternally optimistic 21 about that. 22 THE COURT: So if -- if you would like to 23 perhaps file your response to that three weeks from 24 Friday, no later than -- you can file it earlier if 25 you want to. 0098 1 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: And if you would in there -- I 3 would assume that Mr. Minton's need to be prepared 4 for the -- for the complaint itself is probably 5 somewhat minimal. The counterclaim is very 6 separate. It's an abuse of process, I think. 7 There's no question you have to be familiar enough 8 with it to know what it's all about, but I don't 9 know that you would need to be in a position to 10 cross examine the medical experts and all that sort 11 of stuff. 12 So I would like some idea as to when you could 13 be ready -- 14 MR. WEIN: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: -- if it -- if it is -- if it is 16 severed, okay? All that bears, I suppose, on the 17 decision. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: And your Honor, we will take a 19 look at the pleadings, and if they need to be 20 adjusted we'll -- 21 THE COURT: It may well be. I mean, I gave him 22 permission to amend, to add him -- 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 24 THE COURT: -- so I suppose he needs to be 25 added -- 0099 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 2 THE COURT: -- in some fashion. 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah. 4 THE COURT: You know, I don't know about 5 service, frankly. Once a motion to dismiss is 6 filed, seems like somebody's accepted the fact 7 they're a party to a lawsuit and they're responding. 8 MR. WEIN: To help you on that, your Honor, 9 reviewing the pleadings -- which we're still trying 10 to get through, because there is a load of them, as 11 your Honor's well aware -- 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. WEIN: -- it appears that the motion to 14 dismiss and strike filed by Mr. Howie on 15 Mr. Minton's behalf indicated that he accepted 16 service of a copy of the counterclaim as it then 17 existed, but that counterclaim is not named. 18 Mr. Minton is a separate party. His name happens to 19 appear in the document. 20 THE COURT: Maybe that made the motion to 21 dismiss a lot easier. 22 MR. WEIN: That wasn't one of the grounds. I 23 think it needs -- 24 THE COURT: I think -- 25 MR. WEIN: -- to be -- 0100 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. WEIN: -- in writing. 3 THE COURT: Well, we'll assume that the 4 pleadings need to be -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Adjusted. 6 THE COURT: -- adjusted. And that if a motion 7 dismiss is filed, then we can hear it rather 8 readily. 9 That's the second thing I wanted to raise. 10 I -- because, of course, thought I was going to 11 be in trial, had lined up Judge Beach. I don't know 12 whether you all have lined up depositions for next 13 week. But if you haven't, I've got a couple of 14 motions pending that affect the first half of this 15 lawsuit. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we haven't, but we're 17 trying to arrange them for -- we're trying to get 18 dates from our -- 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. WEINBERG: -- experts. 21 THE COURT: Well, what I'm trying to figure is, 22 if you're not going to be taking depositions next 23 week, I don't know why I can't hear those two 24 motions you have pending. 25 MR. WEINBERG: That would be a good idea. 0101 1 THE COURT: On the net accumulations, and the 2 motion for summary judgment on the battery. 3 Is there more? 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Is there a motion for summary 5 judgment on the battery? 6 MR. DANDAR: No. Negligence. 7 THE COURT: Oh, I'm sorry. On the negligence. 8 On one of the counts, remaining counts. Negligence. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, actually -- I 10 mean, I was planning on being up in New York next 11 week. 12 THE COURT: Okay. It doesn't have to be done. 13 I'd like -- I'd like to get it done when I have 14 senior judge coverage -- 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 16 THE COURT: -- because otherwise we're going to 17 have to fit those motions into my regular calendar, 18 and it's -- 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 20 THE COURT: -- full, as you might -- 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 22 THE COURT: -- well imagine. So since I have 23 the benefit of Judge Beach -- 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 25 THE COURT: And once I get back into my regular 0102 1 docket, getting him in -- he'll be off doing with 2 you all or he'll be off helping someone else. 3 So if you were planning on being in New York, 4 why, you know, that's fine. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 6 THE COURT: But if -- if we could -- see if you 7 can change your plans. If you can't, you can't. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yeah. 9 THE COURT: And we'll schedule them for some 10 other time. 11 But it needs to be done and it needs to be 12 done -- I believe you all would want it done soon 13 because, you know -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Before -- 15 THE COURT: -- if you all are going to take all 16 these interlocutory appeals -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 18 THE COURT: -- or somebody -- there have been a 19 lot of interlocutory appeals taken. 20 So the case right now is set for trial in 21 September, and we need to press forward. That would 22 be the complaint only. So we need to assume for now 23 that that is all we're trying, if we try it, and 24 that all matters relating to that need to be 25 resolved. 0103 1 That's my third thing that came to my mind. 2 And that is, with -- yesterday Mr. Moxon indicated 3 that certain people will now maybe become witnesses, 4 and I presume they'll be deposed. I do not want 5 those depositions to interfere with the depositions 6 on the complaint -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 8 THE COURT: -- because that case now is set for 9 trial, and I don't want it to be necessarily 10 postponed because a whole slew of depositions on the 11 counterclaim, which really isn't set, are set. 12 So -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 14 THE COURT: -- work toward the depositions that 15 need to be taking for the complaint -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 17 THE COURT: -- first. 18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, that brings to mind, 19 Mr. Moxon wants to take Jeff Jacobsen's deposition 20 again, and I told you his deposition's already been 21 taken. 22 I talked to Mr. Jacobson, who lives in Arizona. 23 He's willing to fly here. But he said, "Look, I 24 already turned over the videotapes that I had, to 25 Mr. Moxon, in the first deposition." So -- I don't 0104 1 remember what happened in the first deposition, but 2 I think if he did turn over documents, they need to 3 tell us what they have so I can tell Mr. Jacobson 4 what they have and what they don't have. 5 He says there's only six videotapes, and it's 6 just him videotaping Scientology's PIs videotaping 7 him. 8 THE COURT: Well, has he turned those over? 9 MR. DANDAR: He said he turned them over 10 previously in his first deposition. 11 THE COURT: Oh. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I took that 13 deposition, and I don't recall that. But again, 14 I'll say I think it didn't happen, and I'll check 15 it, and if that's the case, I'll let Mr. Dandar 16 know. But I believe that he had nothing to turn 17 over at that time. 18 And this is only for the videos. It's not to 19 go into anything else. I think that was already 20 indicated to your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Well, if -- if -- then it seems 22 like if the -- there's a better way to do that. It 23 seems like that if -- if there are videos that you 24 already have, then you don't need -- 25 MR. FUGATE: No. I -- 0105 1 THE COURT: But if you don't have them, a 2 subpoena duces tecum, perhaps, just to produce them, 3 if he's willing to produce them, look at them and 4 see if he's just simply videoing another videoer 5 taking a video. I don't know how many questions one 6 would need to ask about that. 7 You know, there's all kinds of allegations 8 about abuse of process by the Church of Scientology. 9 It doesn't behoove the church to take an unnecessary 10 deposition. 11 MR. FUGATE: Don't have any interest in doing 12 that -- 13 THE COURT: Right. 14 MR. FUGATE: -- either. 15 It's just really because when we made the 16 request that they be produced, they -- to 17 Mr. McGowan, because they were covered in the order, 18 he said he would get in touch with Mr. Jacobson and 19 request it; did; and Mr. Jacobson told him, "I'm not 20 giving you anything," as I understand it. So we 21 filed a -- the motion for the out-of-state 22 commission, and that's the only reason we did it. 23 THE COURT: But now he says he turned them over 24 at the first deposition. 25 MR. FUGATE: I'll check it, but -- 0106 1 THE COURT: Check it out. And if he didn't, 2 maybe we could just ask him to produce them. And if 3 he does -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 5 THE COURT: -- then you could look at them -- 6 MR. FUGATE: Right. 7 THE COURT: -- and see if there's any real need 8 to depose the man. 9 MR. FUGATE: That would certainly be a lot 10 easier. 11 THE COURT: And again, as I said, I think that 12 before duplicate depositions are taken, that it just 13 makes good sense for both sides to get permission. 14 MR. MOXON: I think that's -- that's a good 15 idea. Maybe Mr. Dandar can give us his number. I 16 don't know if Mr. Dandar's representing him. He 17 didn't in the past. But I'd be happy to talk to 18 Mr. Jacobson and see what I can straighten out 19 formally, rather than going through Mr. Dandar as 20 to, "Mr. Jacobsen told Mr. Dandar this," so -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I -- 22 MR. MOXON: -- so give me his number and I'll 23 talk to him. 24 MR. DANDAR: I do not represent him, but I do 25 not feel comfortable giving his phone number out, so 0107 1 let me call him and see if it's all right first. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. MOXON: Or have him call me. 4 MR. DANDAR: Or have him call Mr. Moxon. 5 THE COURT: That would be good. 6 Okay. So those are some thoughts I had last 7 night. I think I've covered them. 8 I do want -- I would like to -- I think, when I 9 settle in to try to read what I need to read and 10 make a decision in what we've been hearing for the 11 last however many days it's been -- forever -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: It's in the 30s. 13 THE COURT: It's in the 30s. 14 MR. LIROT: 34 today, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I would like to -- to contemplate 16 the other motions as well. So I would really like 17 to have you all set those. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 19 THE COURT: And if you don't, I'll probably set 20 them myself. So -- so best you all get together and 21 figure out a day. 22 Assume I can get senior judge coverage, so 23 assume -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: You're pretty available. 25 THE COURT: Well, I am if I have senior judge 0108 1 coverage. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Oh. 3 THE COURT: Because as long as I have senior 4 judge coverage, I can let the senior judge do my 5 calendar. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 7 THE COURT: Sue tells me it's full. So I 8 really won't have time without senior judge 9 coverage. 10 MR. DANDAR: Tuesday, July 30th, would be fine. 11 I know Mr. Weinberg's on vacation next week. So we 12 can do it July 30th when he gets back. That's the 13 Tuesday after he gets back. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll check and get back -- 15 THE COURT: Okay. Check and get back. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- your Honor. 17 I'm also concerned about -- I only have these 18 three weeks to get all this work done. 19 THE COURT: Well, just think about me. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: I know, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Would you think about me? Because 22 that's why I'm saying, let me have the weekends -- 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, I know. 24 THE COURT: -- because that's what I -- 25 weekends and nights. So whatever your problems, 0109 1 mine are worse. 2 (A discussion was held off the record.) 3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, there's one other 4 thing. There's some -- if you remember, some 5 additional e-mails had come up -- 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. WEINBERG: -- and you said we could go back 8 to Mr. Minton. So we went to Mr. Battaglia, and he 9 got an affidavit from Mr. Minton, which I'm handing 10 up, which identifies -- one, two, three, four, five, 11 six, seven, eight -- nine e-mails that he's pulled 12 off his computer. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. FUGATE: Authenticates. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Huh? 16 MR. FUGATE: He authenticates. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That he -- that he 18 authenticates. 19 I guess -- what have we been doing with the 20 affidavit? Have we been filing them as exhibits? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Is that what we've been doing? 23 We mark this as our next exhibit. 24 THE CLERK: 264. 25 THE COURT: I did have one other thought too. 0110 1 This document yesterday, Mr. Dandar, that you 2 offered, that I did not accept, did you say you were 3 offering it to show a pattern of conduct of the 4 church and lawyers and -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- lawyers opposing them? 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Okay. And then you all said that 9 you had a -- something where this person withdrew 10 this -- this affidavit. 11 MR. MOXON: That's right. 12 THE COURT: Yeah. I better have that. 13 MR. MOXON: Okay. 14 MR. DANDAR: But they also have another one, 15 according to Mr. Moxon, where he reinstates the 16 affidavit. 17 THE COURT: Whatever you have. Bring it in. 18 Let me take a look at it. I haven't read the -- I 19 haven't read it yet, but I need to know whether the 20 man even says that it's a valid affidavit or not. 21 MR. MOXON: Yeah. I think maybe he goes back 22 and forth. 23 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm handing -- I handed -- 24 THE COURT: And then I will consider that. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. 0111 1 THE COURT: But I have to see what the 2 documents are -- 3 MR. DANDAR: All right. 4 THE COURT: -- as to whether or not that would 5 be admissible on that theory; not a theory of 6 relevancy otherwise. 7 MR. DANDAR: In a filing that we made, I 8 believe, yesterday, it included the affidavit of 9 Sandra Anderson, the Hospice worker for Fannie 10 McPherson. Counsel -- Mr. Weinberg objected and 11 wanted the deposition, so I gave the clerk the 12 deposition this morning of Sandra Anderson. And I'd 13 like to hand a copy to the court -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. DANDAR: -- and just attach it to that 16 joint -- that exhibit that's called a notice of 17 filing -- 18 THE COURT: Was it an affidavit? 19 MR. DANDAR: It was an affidavit of Sandra 20 Anderson. Now here's the deposition. 21 THE COURT: Okay. What I'm going to do, then, 22 in the light of the fact there's a deposition, I'm 23 just going to add it. 24 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. That -- that's -- 0112 1 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know how to do that. 2 I'm just -- maybe we better make it the next number. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Make it B. Make it B of 4 whatever that exhibit was. 5 THE COURT: Do you have -- 6 My poor clerk. 7 Do you happen to know what number that is, 8 Madam Clerk? 9 I told the chief judge it would be nice if I 10 could have some senior judge coverage for my having 11 to write an order, and he thought maybe two days 12 would be -- he said, "I'll give you a couple days." 13 So I have to have another chat. 14 (A discussion was held off the record.) 15 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, find it. If you find 16 it, let us know so we will not be held up. We 17 talked about it yesterday. 18 THE CLERK: Yes. 19 THE COURT: It was a big lot of things. 20 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. What is this -- 22 Mr. Minton -- what is this, again, this -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: These are e-mails that 24 Mr. Minton took off of his computer that were sent 25 to him. And he's authenticated the e-mails -- 0113 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. WEINBERG: -- including several that you've 3 seen that couldn't be authenticated until you told 4 me to go get an authenticating affidavit from him. 5 THE COURT: Okay. So these may have been 6 mentioned before. 7 MR. WEINBERG: A number of them have. And 8 we'll go over it in our rebuttal case, maybe, with 9 Mr. Dandar. 10 THE COURT: All right. All right. Mr. Dandar, 11 let's have you retake the stand. 12 (A discussion was held off the record.) 13 THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead. 14 And please let's remember what I said 15 yesterday. You all had a lot of -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: I will. 17 THE COURT: -- communication about some of what 18 he's testified to. 19 MR. WEINBERG: And there were few points we 20 were going to call Mr. Dandar on our rebuttal, so I 21 don't think this is going to be all that long, but 22 what I was going to do, if it's okay with the court, 23 is just complete what I needed to do with 24 Mr. Dandar. 25 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 0114 1 CROSS EXAMINATION 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Now, Mr. Dandar, Jesse Prince was on the payroll 4 of FACTNet, remember that, sometime in the summer and fall 5 of 1998? 6 A Only if that's what he said in his deposition. 7 Otherwise I wouldn't know. 8 Q Right. 9 And then after that, you remember that Mr. Minton 10 began to pay him around $5,000 a month in the spring of 11 1999? 12 A No. I had no knowledge of that. I mean, it 13 depends on what his deposition says. 14 Q And then on -- as of June 30th, 1999, you gave 15 Mr. Prince the first check -- the first $5,000 check, which 16 you continued to pay him on a monthly basis until May of 17 2000, correct? 18 A Correct. 19 Q Now, you were aware that in July -- on July 27th, 20 1998, Mr. Prince filed an affidavit in the FACTNet case. 21 A I can't -- no, I can't say I'm aware of that. 22 Q That wasn't one of the affidavits that you had 23 reviewed with Mr. Prince? 24 A I don't recall. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Mark this as our next exhibit. 0115 1 THE CLERK: 265. 2 MR. WEINBERG: This is 265, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q This'll be 265. 6 THE COURT: On these affidavits, it would be 7 very helpful to me if, somehow or another, you all 8 could, when you get toward the end, so -- maybe it's 9 late. But a lot of times you all have something on 10 the front that identifies what they're connected 11 with. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Could I possibly take that one 13 that -- 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: -- has your name on it, and give 16 you this? 17 THE COURT: You're going to have to tell me the 18 number again. 19 MR. WEINBERG: 265. 20 THE COURT: Thank you. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q And if you turn to -- if you look at the back of 23 265, it's dated July 27th, 1998. And does -- 24 Do you see that? 25 A Yes. 0116 1 Q And does that refresh your recollection that this 2 would have -- that this was done and ultimately identified 3 in Mr. Prince's August, '98 deposition; that this was done 4 in the FACTNet case? 5 A No. 6 Q And that was the first thing he worked on when 7 he -- when he first appeared in -- 8 A I -- 9 Q -- in -- 10 A I can't swear under oath. 11 Q All right. 12 A I have no knowledge of this. 13 Q And then if you go to page 14, paragraphs 28 and 14 29, you see that's the same, almost exact same, PC folder 15 allegation that appears in the affidavit that Mr. Prince 16 filed in this case on August -- the one that's dated 17 August 20th, 1999, correct? 18 A Well, this is sworn testimony, so I don't think I 19 would call that an allegation. 20 Q Okay. In any event, you remember that at the time 21 that -- in 1999, when Mr. Prince went on your payroll, that 22 Mr. Prince filed a declaration in the Larry Wollersheim 23 case. Do you remember that? 24 A No. 25 And he wasn't on my payroll. He was an 0117 1 independent contractor. 2 Q In June of '99? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, let me -- and -- 5 let me have the reporter (sic) -- reporter. I'm 6 sorry, Madam Clerk -- clerk mark as our next 7 exhibit -- 8 THE CLERK: 266. 9 MR. WEINBERG: -- 266 -- 10 Your Honor, this is 266. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Now, 266, that refresh your recollection that -- 13 THE COURT: He just -- his recollection was, is 14 that he was not on his payroll. He objected to your 15 use of the word -- 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 THE COURT: -- he was on his payroll. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'll rephrase the 19 question. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q This was executed on June 30th, 1999, correct? 22 A That's what it says. 23 Q And that happens to be the day of the first check 24 to Mr. Prince, that came from your office. Do you remember 25 that? 0118 1 A If that's what the check says, that's probably 2 correct. 3 Q All right. And if you look on -- on page 7, 4 paragraph 16, the same PC folder accusation appears that 5 subsequently appeared in the August 20 affidavit, right? 6 A Well, it's similar. 7 Q Okay. Now, throughout -- throughout this period 8 of time, with regard to Mr. Prince, you were getting money 9 from Mr. Minton to fund the litigation, correct? 10 A That's correct. 11 Q And in fact on May 22nd, 1999 -- and we can pull 12 the checks if you want to -- there's a 13 hundred-thousand-dollar check dated May 22nd, 1999. 14 A Okay. 15 Q And shortly thereafter, Mr. Prince began to be 16 paid by you all, by the Dandar and Dandar law firm. 17 A Okay. 18 Q And then right after Mr. Prince began to be paid 19 the $5,000 a month, there was this Key West meeting in 20 August 8th or 9th through the 13th -- 21 A Well -- 22 Q -- of 1999 -- 23 A -- I -- 24 Q -- right? 25 A I believe -- first of all, I don't remember the 0119 1 exact date, but if you say it's August 8th or 9th, that's 2 fine. 3 Q All right. And -- and regardless of what 4 Mr. Prince says, there was certainly -- this was certainly, 5 among other things, a strategy -- a strategy session where 6 you, other members of the trial team in the Lisa McPherson 7 case, and lawyers from California discussed Scientology 8 litigation, right? 9 A False. 10 That's a multiple question anyway. 11 There was -- a meeting -- it was not a meeting. 12 It was a fishing trip. They were already down there 13 fishing. I just came down there to meet these attorneys 14 from California. 15 And there was no strategy session. Had nothing to 16 do with Lisa McPherson. 17 Q All right. So you never discussed with 18 Mr. Leipold or Mr. Greene them working with you on the Lisa 19 McPherson case. 20 A Not in Key West. I mean, we did talk about 21 Scientology, and we talked about their tactics. They told 22 me what I can expect to happen to me and my brother and my 23 family and my law firm. But we didn't talk about strategy 24 or them working for me. 25 Q All right. And you were there for a number of 0120 1 days, right? 2 A No. I think it was a -- I may have spent two 3 nights. But I didn't stay with them. I was by myself on a 4 different island. 5 Q Now, by the way, yesterday you said -- I believe 6 you said that you didn't care about adding David 7 Miscavige -- that wasn't something that -- that you really 8 cared about -- as a defendant to the lawsuit. 9 A Not because he's David Miscavige. I cared about 10 adding people onto the lawsuit who were responsible. 11 Q Well, I -- I think -- and correct me if I'm 12 wrong -- that you said that it wasn't that -- it wasn't a 13 big deal because you couldn't get money out of -- out of 14 Mr. Miscavige. 15 A Did I say that? 16 Q I think so. 17 A When? 18 Q Yesterday. 19 A I don't think so. 20 Q Okay. 21 A But anyway, you know, if it was the janitor -- if 22 he was a janitor and he was responsible, I would try to move 23 to add him on. It didn't matter to me what position he had 24 in Scientology. 25 Q Okay. And you said, I think, again, that one of 0121 1 the reasons it didn't matter is that you already -- at that 2 point you already had been given the permission to have 3 punitive damages. Do you remember saying that? 4 A No. 5 Q All right. But that would be -- if you said that, 6 that would be incorrect, because you didn't seek punitive 7 damages -- you sought punitive damages authorization at the 8 same time, in the same motion that you sought to add -- to 9 file the fifth amended complaint and add David Miscavige. 10 That was one joint motion, wasn't it? 11 A Is that -- is that how we did that? I thought the 12 punitives were already added, but the record will speak for 13 itself. I mean, you know -- 14 Q Well, I just want to clear it up. 15 THE COURT: It doesn't matter. You don't need 16 to file another -- a copy of the complaint. The 17 punitive damages were asked for whenever they were 18 asked for, it's a part of the record in this case. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q All right. Well, what I'm referring to is a 21 motion to file amended complaint to allege claims for 22 punitive damages and motion to add party defendants, filed 23 September 7th, 1999. 24 A Right. But -- and I'll take you at your word. If 25 you say that's the first time I asked for punitive damages, 0122 1 then fine. But as I sit here right now, I can't tell you 2 that's accurate. But -- 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- let's just assume it is. 5 Q In any event, after the Key West meeting, right 6 after the Key West meeting -- we talked about this 7 yesterday -- you had a meeting with Ms. Brooks and 8 Mr. Minton in Philadelphia on August 26th, 1999. 9 A Yes. They did meet me in Philadelphia, I believe, 10 on the 20 -- 21st, 23rd, something like that, of August. So 11 that's like a couple weeks later. 12 Q And Mr. Minton -- remember Mr. Minton testified 13 that he told you that -- at this meeting, he testified that 14 he told you that -- that he wanted more focus on 15 Scientology, and that he wanted better -- you to use better 16 Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks? 17 A That's with a -- 18 Q That was his testimony. 19 A Yeah. 20 That's incorrect testimony. 21 THE COURT: And we went through this. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Just -- 23 THE COURT: We went through this on -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Just bear with me for a minute, 25 your Honor. I'm getting there. 0123 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q And you -- and in any event, at that meeting he 3 gave you $250,000. 4 A Well, either he did or he mailed it to me and I 5 got it the next day. It's one or the other. I mean, it 6 makes sense that he would have given it to me, since I was 7 there. And the check's dated the next day. But I don't 8 remember him giving me the check then. And that's -- to me, 9 it's not a big issue. 10 Q Now, in any event -- 11 And by the way, that motion we just looked at to 12 add parties and to add punitive damages, Mr. Prince's 13 August 20th affidavit was -- was filed in behalf of both of 14 those motions, right; as evidence with regard to both of 15 those motions. 16 A It's probable, although Judge Moody only relied on 17 Dr. Minkoff's statement, being shocked and appalled at the 18 state of -- physical state of Lisa McPherson, as the basis 19 for punitive damages. 20 Q And remember, when we -- when I -- when we talked 21 about this a number of weeks ago, I -- I asked you whether 22 or not, at that Philadelphia meeting, there had been 23 discussion about adding David Miscavige, or expanding the 24 lawsuit, and -- or discussion about the Jesse Prince 25 affidavit, and you made the point that the Jesse Prince 0124 1 affidavit had already been done before the meeting. 2 A Well, yeah. There's -- Jesse Prince had been 3 working on that affidavit for a long time. And -- I mean, 4 it wasn't a day job; it was like a couple weeks, as I 5 recall. 6 Q And that affidavit, you testified, was executed on 7 August 20th, 1999. 8 A Well, whenever it says. The document speaks for 9 itself. Whatever it -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Do we have that? 11 THE COURT: If somebody knows the date, 12 whatever it says it says. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I need to -- I need to 14 pull that document, and one other -- 15 THE WITNESS: I'm going to assume 16 Mr. Weinberg's correct on the date. All you have to 17 do is look at the affidavit. 18 THE COURT: If he isn't, why, it'll be 19 reflected in the record. 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Now, you sent a copy by fax of the Jesse Prince 23 affidavit to Doug Crow at the State Attorney's Office, 24 correct? 25 A Well, I don't know, but I may have. 0125 1 Q And the point -- and you -- you actually sent it 2 to Mr. Crow before it was ever filed in this case, didn't 3 you? 4 A Can't say that one way or the other. 5 I mean, look; you're trying to connect all these 6 dots. There's no connection. But you got to show me 7 documents on when I sent things out in the mail three years 8 ago, or by e-mail or fax or whatever. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. We'll mark as the next 10 exhibit -- 11 THE CLERK: 267. 12 MR. WEINBERG: -- 267. 13 A This says September 1st of '99. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q All right. And this is a fax that you sent from 16 your law firm -- 17 You see at the top of each page -- 18 You sent to Mr. Crow, correct? 19 A That's correct. 20 And his affidavit is not dated on this one. 21 Q No, it's not, is it? 22 Now, the reason that you sent this to Mr. Crow was 23 to see if it was possible to get Mr. Miscavige indicted with 24 these new allegations by Mr. Prince? Was that the purpose? 25 A No. 0126 1 Q Was it to enhance your case to see if they could 2 put more pressure on the Church of Scientology? 3 A No. Mr. Crow, sometime before this, had a request 4 of me that if I came up with any information that I thought 5 he would like to see, to send it to him. 6 Q Now, let me show you the August -- let me show you 7 the affidavit that you filed in your motion of Mr. Prince 8 and that you filed in this court in this hearing. And this 9 is the same affidavit that you sent to Mr. Crow, if you look 10 at the -- at the fax. You want to compare them? 11 A Mr. Weinberg, I'll take you at your word. 12 Q All right. But on the -- on the affidavit that 13 was filed in this case, in the motion, we have a notary seal 14 indicating that it was sworn to and subscribed on 15 August 20th, 1999 by Donna West, who's your assistant. Do 16 you see that? 17 A Right. 18 Q But the one that you sent to Mr. Crow, which is 19 the same affidavit -- and you'll see that the signatures 20 are -- is absolutely identical -- the one that you sent to 21 Mr. Crow, same signature, it's not notarized, is it? 22 A So? Just -- 23 Q 11 days later or whatever it is. 24 A Just means it was copied before it was notarized. 25 That's all. 0127 1 Q Well, does it mean that the -- that the document 2 was backdated -- 3 A Well, you know, I'm not going to -- 4 Q -- by -- by Ms. West? 5 A No. 6 What I'm going to say to you right now is that I 7 cannot say that what I e-mailed to Mr. Crow did not have a 8 notary signature on it -- signature on it, and a stamp. 9 Q Well, you know that it is a violation of the law, 10 for a notary to notarize a document not signed in the 11 presence of the signatory, or to backdate a notary. You 12 know that that's a violation of the law, don't you? 13 A Sure. 14 You know what? Donna West is sitting right here, 15 so you're free to put her on the stand. 16 Q Well -- 17 THE COURT: What's the relevance of this? 18 THE WITNESS: I'd like to figure that out too. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think that -- 20 that -- 21 THE COURT: What are you trying to do; get 22 Ms. West into some sort of trouble or -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, I'm not. I'm not at all. 24 THE COURT: It really is irrelevant to this 25 case. 0128 1 MR. WEINBERG: I think that -- 2 Well, let me just do this. 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q I mean, isn't the truth that Mr. Prince's 5 affidavit was -- was -- had not been finalized and had not 6 been completed prior to the Philadelphia meeting, and it was 7 only -- and -- as indicated by the fact that a few days 8 later, it was sent to Mr. Crow? 9 A No. The truth is that when Donna West puts a date 10 on an affidavit, whether it's this one or any other one, 11 that's the date the person's standing in front of her 12 swearing under oath to the affidavit. Period. There's no 13 shenanigans on my part. You know, I don't have to do 14 anything in this case, of shenanigans, you know. 15 Q All right. 16 A There's no -- 17 THE COURT: It is -- 18 A -- conspiracy. 19 THE COURT: Irrelevant, Counsel. Move on to 20 some other area. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Okay. Now, you -- let's get to the issue as to 23 whether or not you had reason to doubt Jesse Prince. 24 THE COURT: Counselor, you've put this up here, 25 and I'm not sure -- 0129 1 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry. 2 THE COURT: -- whether you want it back. I've 3 got so many copies of affidavits of Jesse Prince -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Another -- 5 THE COURT: -- that I don't need another one. 6 MR. WEINBERG: And we offer into evidence, your 7 Honor, the Exhibit -- Exhibit 265, which is the '98 8 affidavit of Mr. Prince; 266, which is -- I mean -- 9 266, which is the '99 affidavit of Mr. Prince; and 10 267, which is the fax transmittal that we just -- 11 THE COURT: Any objection? 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, you've already ruled 267 is 13 irrelevant. 14 THE COURT: Well, no, I didn't rule 267 was 15 irrelevant. That may have some bearing on the fact 16 that he sent this to Mr. Crow, and what his reason 17 for doing this was. They'll have their impression 18 of that; you'll have yours. 19 That -- what I ruled was irrelevant was 20 whatever it was he was showing me about the fact 21 that Ms. West may have backdated or may have not 22 signed a notary stamp -- that's a problem between 23 the state attorney and Ms. West. If you want to 24 file a complaint, do it. Has nothing to do with 25 this. 0130 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Did you send it to Mr. Crow in order to enhance 3 the position of your case by -- 4 THE COURT: Asked and answered. You've already 5 asked him that. 6 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Now, let's talk about whether or not you had 9 reason to doubt Mr. Prince or Mr. Prince's August, 1999 10 affidavit. You've told -- you've repeated this a number of 11 times -- 12 THE COURT: Counsel, you've been into this so 13 many times, about Mr. Prince, his reasoning -- I 14 mean -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Just bear with me. It's 16 really not going to take that long. 17 THE COURT: Well, I beared with you the last 18 time, and when you finally got to it, it absolutely 19 had nothing to do, except to perhaps to smear the 20 secretary. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, no. That wasn't the 22 purpose. 23 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what other 24 purpose you had. 25 MR. WEINBERG: He sent it to Mr. Crow. I 0131 1 mean -- 2 THE COURT: Well, that was fine. But you went 3 on beyond that. And you really wanted to get to a 4 lawyer's secretary and whether she signed the thing 5 or whether she didn't; whether there was some, you 6 know -- you know -- that just isn't really 7 necessary. 8 So I'll listen, but you better connect it up, 9 because you've been through this and been through 10 this and been through this. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q All right. You were aware that he had left in 13 disgrace from the Church of Scientology, correct? 14 A No. Just quite to the contrary. 15 Q You were aware of the gun story. Mr. Prince had 16 told you that early on? 17 A Yeah. And it was a -- no one was afraid of 18 Mr. Prince with loaded guns. And I heard that from several 19 people. 20 Q And you knew that -- 21 A Especially in front of Judge Moody. 22 Q And you knew he had a deep bias against the 23 church -- 24 A No. 25 Q -- and against Mr. Miscavige. 0132 1 A No. Not at all. 2 Q You learned at some point that Mr. Miscavige was 3 meeting with Mr. McCabe with regard to the case, in the 4 fall -- regard to the criminal case, in the fall of '99, 5 correct? 6 A I think I learned that when it came out in the 7 newspaper, so whenever that came out. 8 Q Well, you were actually quoted in the newspaper 9 being very critical of Mr. McCabe meeting with -- with -- 10 with Mr. Miscavige. Do you remember that? 11 A No. 12 THE COURT: Counsel, you know, you had a 13 document that they wanted to introduce that I kept 14 out at your request. You go into this and that 15 document becomes admissible. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Let me just make my point. 17 THE COURT: Well, make your point on that, and 18 I'm telling you, that document will become 19 admissible. 20 I mean, yes, Mr. Miscavige met with Mr. McCabe. 21 There's no question about it. He followed up with a 22 letter. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And there's nothing 24 wrong -- 25 THE COURT: And the letter, I kept out at your 0133 1 request. 2 You want to get into this area, I'm going to 3 let that letter in. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not even sure what letter 5 you're talking about. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just going -- 8 THE COURT: Well, I know. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to go ahead. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q You -- your case would have been greatly benefited 12 if Mr. Miscavige had been indicted, wouldn't it have? 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, that asks for speculation. 14 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 15 A I don't know. I mean, I had no idea. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q You had a duty -- you have a duty as a lawyer to 18 have something more than speculation to support a complaint, 19 allegations in a complaint, right? 20 A Sure. 21 Q You -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q You knew, in 1999, at the time that you filed this 24 complaint making these allegations against Mr. Miscavige, 25 that the state attorney had conducted a long investigation, 0134 1 and it had been conducted by many fine prosecutors, who -- 2 whose integrity was beyond reproach. You knew that, didn't 3 you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you knew -- 6 A As far as -- I mean, that's limited knowledge, 7 because I don't know what they know. 8 Q And you knew that they had charged the church in 9 the -- I think it was the fall of '98, correct? 10 A I assume so. 11 Q And you knew that they had not charged 12 Mr. Miscavige. 13 A Well, you know, there're two different standards 14 of proof. 15 And I also know they charged him with the most 16 flimsiest of criminal charges they could possibly come up 17 with. 18 Q Well, the point is, when you learned from the 19 newspaper, if it was the newspaper, that Mr. McCabe was 20 meeting with Mr. Miscavige, you didn't actually believe 21 Jesse Prince over Bernie McCabe, who had conducted this 22 two-year investigation, as to the involvement of individuals 23 at the Church of Scientology with regard to the death of 24 Lisa McPherson, did you? 25 A Well, the state attorney doesn't -- they tried to 0135 1 learn about Scientology, but as far as I know, they didn't 2 talk to high executives like Mr. Prince, who were no longer 3 associated with the church, to get the truth about how the 4 church operates. And I was very happy to have Mr. Prince 5 working for me, vouched by Vaughn Young, Stacy Young, and 6 other former executives of Scientology, as being a very 7 truthful individual. 8 And Mr. -- I still believe today that Mr. Prince 9 is not so biased against the Church of Scientology that I 10 wouldn't believe what he says, and when he proves them with 11 the documents of the Church of Scientology. 12 Q Well, you certainly don't believe that someone 13 like Mr. McCabe would have been meeting with an individual 14 who his investigation had demonstrated had committed murder. 15 You don't believe that, do you? 16 A I didn't understand your question. 17 THE COURT: All right. Counselor, that's 18 enough. That document is coming in -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going on. 20 THE COURT: -- into evidence. It's in. It's 21 now admitted. 22 That meeting had to do with settlement -- it is 23 as clear as a bell -- and a settlement offer by the 24 church. 25 That document is admissible. 0136 1 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 2 THE COURT: Whatever it was, Madam Clerk, it's 3 now admissible. 4 You can't -- 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Now -- 7 THE COURT: -- imply things like that and not 8 have that document admitted. I tried to tell you 9 that. It's coming in. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 11 THE COURT: So Madam Clerk, find it so I can 12 put on the record what it is. And it is admissible. 13 And I have to assume that, from this letter, 14 it's a follow-up to their meeting where they 15 discussed settlement of the criminal charges. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Which of course were not 17 settled, as it turned out. 18 THE COURT: Because Mr. McCabe didn't accept 19 the offer. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 21 THE COURT: I mean, you're -- you're -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: 'Cause -- 23 THE COURT: Mr. Miscavige made an offer to 24 settle the criminal charges. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Without -- 0137 1 THE COURT: PTI. And all the whole thing is in 2 there. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 4 THE COURT: To imply somehow otherwise in this 5 case is improper. That letter comes in. 6 Find it. 7 Go on ahead. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think we have anything 9 improper -- 10 THE COURT: I don't know what you did, but I 11 know what David Miscavige did, based on the letter. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 13 THE COURT: Because the letter is from him. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And the letter speaks for -- 15 speaks for itself and we have no problem with that. 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q You denied that the LMT was used to be closely 19 associated and affiliated with the wrongful death case. Do 20 you remember saying that on -- 21 A And I still say that. That's absolutely true. 22 Q And you said that you had nothing -- virtually 23 nothing to do with the LMT and the LMT had virtually nothing 24 to do with the case, right? 25 A Did I say virtually? 0138 1 Q I'm saying virtually. 2 A Ah. Thank you. So don't quote me, then, if it's 3 your words. 4 I said that the LMT and the wrongful death case 5 were totally separate. 6 Q Okay. But -- 7 A Now, of course I had my expert witness, 8 Mr. Prince, working at the LMT. I had phone calls back and 9 forth between he and I and LMT's lawyer, because you and 10 Mr. Moxon were so intent on bringing the LMT into this 11 litigation. 12 Q All right. But Ms. Brooks, Mr. Prince, 13 Mr. Oliver, Brian Haney -- 14 THE COURT: You're going over old, old stuff, 15 Counsel. Honestly, you've explored this so much 16 when he was on the stand. 17 MR. WEINBERG: It's one question. I mean 18 yesterday he'd said again about the LMT. He was 19 asked that. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Start over. 22 THE COURT: But I mean, just because he was 23 asked it doesn't mean you haven't fully explored it. 24 MR. WEINBERG: It -- I really don't have that 25 long. I mean -- 0139 1 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q But despite that, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, 4 Frank Oliver, Brian Haney, David Cecere and Patricia 5 Greenway -- all people that were affiliated with the LMT, at 6 one time or another, were your trial consultants, correct? 7 A Well, over a broad statement like that, over one 8 time or another, that would be a correct statement. Put 9 them all together at one time, no. 10 Q Peter Alexander, Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks, Jeff 11 Jacobsen -- all have been designated in this case -- in this 12 case by you at one time as experts. 13 A As experts. Experts on -- as a former 14 Scientologists, that's right. Except Jeff Jacobsen. I 15 don't think he was designated as an expert on anything. 16 Q And then Mr. Prince, Mr. Alexander, Mr. Oliver, 17 Teresa Summers, Dan Leipold, John Merrett and Brian Haney, 18 they all testified in this proceeding and they all were 19 affiliated with the LMT, weren't they? 20 A At one time or another. 21 Q And Ray Emmons, your investigator -- you saw the 22 parrot video -- he was affiliated with the AMT (sic), 23 correct? 24 A At one time and then not afterwards. 25 THE COURT: You said the AMT. I presume you 0140 1 meant the -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: LMT. 3 THE COURT: -- LMT. 4 MR. WEINBERG: LMT. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q And that amicus brief that was filed by Keith 7 Henson, he was on the LMT advisory board, wasn't he? 8 MR. LIROT: Objection. Relevance. 9 A I don't think so. 10 THE COURT: Well, we'll just go ahead and admit 11 his brief too, if we're going to talk about things 12 that I kept out. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 THE COURT: And we're going to see then what it 15 is that he's saying. 16 I mean, the truth of the matter is, Counsel, is 17 that these people, I have to presume, are the people 18 who were willing to be used. 19 Are there a lot of people besides the lady that 20 came in here yesterday, that you know of, that you 21 can use, other than the people that were also 22 connected with LMT, as either expert witnesses or 23 consultants on the Church of Scientology? 24 THE WITNESS: No. It takes a rare individual 25 to come out of Scientology and then say, "I'm 0141 1 willing to go in and testify." 2 THE COURT: Are there others that you're aware 3 of, that weren't connected with LMT, that you could 4 use for an expert, that would be able to tell you 5 and testify about things that went on in the church 6 or that could consult with you about those things, 7 same thing? 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 THE COURT: Is there a limited number of 10 individuals that you're able to use? 11 THE WITNESS: Extremely limited. 12 THE COURT: And are those the same people that 13 LMT, with whatever -- whatever their purpose was, 14 whether it was as the -- as the defendants claim or 15 as you claim -- were those the people who were 16 willing to involve themselves in -- in whatever it 17 was, but anti -- we'll call it anti-Scientology 18 work? 19 THE WITNESS: Those were the only ones. 20 I mean, Hana Whitfield is a prime example. She 21 was in, she was out, she was in, she was out. And 22 then she was in. They scheduled her deposition in 23 February of 2002, this year. And boom, they get -- 24 someone -- somebody gets a copy of her credit report 25 a few weeks before her deposition, and then she's 0142 1 out. 2 So I mean, it's very effective, how you -- you 3 can make someone like her decide -- 4 THE COURT: As you sit here today, are you 5 aware of someone else you could have called or can 6 call now, as an expert or consultant, that wasn't 7 somehow or another willing to be connected with LMT 8 in their endeavors, whatever they were? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, Hana Whitfield was the only 10 one. 11 THE COURT: I asked you except for Hana -- 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: -- Whitfield. 14 THE WITNESS: No. The answer is no. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q You put in that chart yesterday about the phone 17 calls, you just mentioned a few minutes ago, from the LMT to 18 your office, and you made the point about Jesse Prince? 19 A To my cell phone, yes. 20 Q Right. 21 And those calls for the most part were calls that 22 were made while Mr. Prince was on the payroll at LMT, 23 correct? 24 A That's probably true. 25 Q Okay. Now, you say that you told Mr. Minton -- 0143 1 you said yesterday that you told Mr. Minton or encouraged 2 Mr. Minton -- and I think you said Mr. Prince -- not to 3 picket. 4 A Correct. 5 Q Okay. But you went -- you saw the video. You 6 went to the LMT, and you had a meeting with Dr. Garko, 7 Mr. Minton, Mr. Prince and Mr. Brooks -- and Ms. Brooks, 8 where you discussed the parameters of picketing under Judge 9 Penick's order. Do you remember that? 10 A I was doing my best to keep them in line with 11 Judge Penick's order, so that, you know, you couldn't use 12 some -- something they did against the order in the criminal 13 courtroom. 14 Q But you didn't tell them in that video not to 15 picket, did you? 16 A No. We had already exhausted that effort, and I 17 knew Mr. Minton's -- wasn't going to listen to me about 18 picketing. 19 Q Well, what about Mr. Prince? He was your trial 20 consultant. 21 A Well, you know, I didn't see Mr. -- I never seen 22 Mr. Prince picket until you produced those videos. 23 Q So that was a revelation to you when you saw 24 these -- all these videos, and Mr. Prince was out there with 25 Mr. Minton and others, shouting obscenities and making a lot 0144 1 of noise and carrying pickets in front of the church 2 buildings in Clearwater? 3 A I only knew one thing for sure, and demonstrated 4 by your videos, that Mr. Minton and Mr. Prince were quiet, 5 well-mannered picketers until your minsters of your client 6 started to shout -- 7 THE COURT: The truth of the matter -- 8 A -- obscenities at them. 9 THE COURT: -- is, Counselor, surely any lawyer 10 would not want his consultant out there saying and 11 doing the things Mr. Prince was doing, knowing that 12 he's going to have to be confronted with those in 13 court, as a showing of bias. I mean, he's already 14 said he's going to try to eliminate those under 401, 15 whatever that section of the evidence code is that 16 the prejudice outweighs the probative value. He's 17 not likely to prevail in that. 18 But surely you can't think that he's very 19 pleased about that. 20 THE WITNESS: That's for sure. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Did you have any conversations with the other 23 consultants, Frank Oliver, Patricia Greenway, David Cecere, 24 not to participate in pickets? 25 A They weren't my consultants then. Best of my 0145 1 recollection. I mean, Patricia Greenway just became -- and 2 I misspoke a couple weeks ago. I mean, she really started 3 to talk to me more daily -- 4 THE COURT: I don't even know -- 5 A -- Mr. Cecere -- 6 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. 7 Was Patricia Greenway a member of the Church of 8 Scientology? 9 THE WITNESS: No. 10 THE COURT: I don't even know that. 11 THE WITNESS: No. No. She -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: No. She was not. Peter -- 13 THE COURT: What was -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- Alexander -- 15 THE COURT: -- she consulting with you about? 16 THE WITNESS: She knows quite a bit about it 17 because her boss, Peter Alexander, is a -- was that 18 Celebrity Center Scientologist. And she had to go 19 over to Flag to take Scientology courses in order to 20 work for his company, which was a WISE company, a 21 company that ran under the Hubbard tech. 22 So she's quite familiar with Scientology. 23 She's a quick learner. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q In any event, every opportunity you had, you 0146 1 aligned yourself with the critics or the anti-Scientologists 2 at the LMT, correct? 3 A False. 4 Q Well, you represented Mr. Oliver at the PSTA 5 meeting. 6 THE COURT: Don't have to go through what 7 you've already been through. 8 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 9 A That had nothing to do -- 10 THE COURT: Make your point in closing 11 arguments. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 13 A Nothing to do with LMT. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Now, you said that -- that you and your client 16 were not enthusiastic -- this is when you were on the stand 17 earlier -- that you and your client were not enthusiastic 18 about the opening of LMT or about the LMT itself. Do you 19 remember that testimony? 20 A That's correct. 21 Q Yet -- you saw the video -- you were at the 22 closing of the building in January of 2000, right? 23 A Well, I was invited over, and I went over there. 24 Doesn't change my opinions. 25 Q And do you remember what you said on the video, 0147 1 that it's a great day for Clearwater? Do you remember 2 saying that? 3 A Yes. I thought it was a good idea on what they 4 said they were going to do, as far as helping people who 5 needed to leave Scientology. 6 Q And do you remember, during that video, that the 7 person selling the building asked Mr. Prince what he -- what 8 his involvement was? This was in January of 2000, when he 9 was your consultant on -- being paid by you. And he said, 10 "I'm working as the VP at LMT"? Do you remember that? 11 A Right. He was a volunteer at that time with the 12 LMT. But he wasn't the big boss, as you alleged. 13 Q Now, you said that no one at the LMT was doing 14 things for you with regard to the case. Leaving Mr. Prince 15 aside. 16 THE COURT: I don't -- I don't recall him 17 saying that. 18 A I don't either. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Well, let me ask the question. 21 THE COURT: I remember lots of folks from LMT, 22 as you just pointed out, were either his expert at 23 one point in time or a consultant -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 25 THE COURT: -- at one point in time. I have to 0148 1 presume -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Did -- 3 THE COURT: -- they were doing something -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Let -- 5 THE COURT: -- for him. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Let -- let me put the question 7 more -- more clearly. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q Did you use the -- any employee at the LMT to 10 assist you with -- with regard to setting up witnesses for 11 the wrongful death case; getting witnesses for the wrongful 12 death case? 13 A Not in their capacity as an employee of the LMT. 14 So you're going to have to be more specific. 15 Q Did you -- 16 A You mean, did I use Jesse Prince to help me find 17 somebody? I don't think so. 18 Q Did you send e-mails back and forth? Were e-mails 19 sent back and forth between your office and the LMT about -- 20 about witnesses for the wrongful death case? 21 A You got to be more specific. 22 Q All right. Teresa Summers was not your 23 consultant, was she? 24 A No. 25 Q And she was an -- she was an employee at the LMT, 0149 1 wasn't she? 2 A I believe she was, after I took her first 3 deposition, about four or five months later. Or after 4 Mr. Moxon took her deposition. I believe May of 2000 was 5 the deposition, and she became employed -- 6 Q Like -- 7 A -- October or November of 2000. 8 MR. WEINBERG: All right. If I could have the 9 next exhibit marked, please. 10 THE CLERK: 268. 11 MR. WEINBERG: This is 268, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q This is Exhibit 268, Mr. Dandar. 15 A Okay. 16 Q Now, this is a document that -- you see it -- I 17 put in yellow, "The top document is an e-mail received from 18 Dandarlaw@aol.com -- that's your e-mail address, correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q It says, "For T. Summers at lisatrust.net, re: 21 Woodcrafts. Do you see that? 22 A Right. 23 Q Now, Leslie Woodcraft is a Scientologist who is 24 one of the people who stayed with Lisa McPherson during the 25 17 days, correct? You were aware of that, right? 0150 1 A Sure. 2 Q You took her deposition. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Now, this particular e-mail, which is dated 5 October 25th, 2000, from the lisatrust -- this particular 6 e-mail from you to Ms. Summers says, "Will her family talk 7 to me, question mark, Ken." Do you see that? 8 A Right. 9 Q So you were -- 10 And then if you go to the second page -- 11 A All right. 12 Q -- that's an e-mail back to you from Teresa 13 Summers, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 Q And that e-mail is dated October 25th, 2000 as 16 well. Do you see that? 17 A Correct. 18 Q And then the answer is, "Re: Astra and the other 19 Woodcrafts --" that's Leslie Woodcraft, the witness -- our 20 witness's family, correct? 21 A That's her -- that's her ex-husband and her 22 children. 23 Q And -- 24 A Adult. 25 Q -- Ms. Summer -- 0151 1 A Adult children. 2 Q I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt you. 3 And Ms. Summers tell you in this e-mail, "Though 4 they did not know Lisa, they are the husband and children of 5 Leslie Woodcraft, who was one of the Lisa watchers and to 6 whom they spoke after Lisa's death. You have depoed --" I 7 guess that means deposed, "-- Leslie. Leslie told these 8 family members that Lisa was, quote, just a nut, and it did 9 not matter that she died." And then there are -- "Teresa," 10 she signs it, and then there's a footnote, "Also Greg Barnes 11 knew Lisa well and was in Scientology at the time of her 12 death. I have asked him to get in touch with you." 13 So my question to you is, the fact is, is that you 14 did, from your law firm, ask employees at the Lisa McPherson 15 Trust to do work with regard to the wrongful death case, 16 didn't you? 17 A No. That's not accurate. 18 This is what's accurate: Teresa Summers, when she 19 came across a person that she thought could help me, like 20 the Woodcraft family, who talked about all the roach 21 infestation, which is not in this e-mail -- but she would 22 say, like this e-mail says: "I found this person." And 23 then I write back to her and say, "Well, will they talk to 24 me?" And then she finds out if they'll talk to me. Because 25 I don't want to be approaching people who just left 0152 1 Scientology, 'cause they're not really all that mentally 2 well, so they need some time to settle down. 3 And she would -- apparently had talked to them. 4 And the mother, who was an attendant of Lisa McPherson, 5 called Lisa McPherson a nut and said that it didn't matter 6 that she died. And that's how that started. 7 Greg Barnes -- he's right here in Clearwater, 8 former Scientologist. And I didn't know that. And Teresa 9 Summers is telling me this. 10 So it's not me making a request to her; she's 11 volunteering this information to me. 12 Q Well, it sure sounds like -- 13 THE COURT: Save it for your closing argument. 14 "Sure sounds like" sure sounds like a lawyer getting 15 ready to make a closing statement. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q But you also had phone calls with Teresa Summers, 18 while she was employed at the Lisa McPherson Trust, about 19 other alleged facts, correct? 20 A I'm sure I did. 21 Q You talked to her about the roaches. You asked 22 her about roaches. Do you -- do you remember that? 23 A Yes. 24 Q So you were talking to her and other -- other 25 members of the trust about your lawsuit, this wrongful death 0153 1 case. They were involved, weren't they? 2 A Of course. They're former Scientologists. 3 But telling me that they're involved in my case is 4 a lot more than what you're talking about. 5 Q Ms. Summers wasn't working for you at the time of 6 that e-mail, was she? 7 A She's never worked for me. 8 Q Now, anybody other than Ms. Summers, did you 9 engage in phone calls like that, or e-mail traffic like 10 that, in which they called you and said, "I've got something 11 helpful in the case," or you called them for help in the 12 case;" anyone else? Leaving aside Mr. Prince. 13 A I have more than I can count, people from around 14 the world sending me information like that. 15 Q I said the Lisa McPherson Trust, is what I said. 16 A Oh, I'm sorry. 17 Well, Jeff Jacobsen would contact me quite often, 18 before he joined the Lisa McPherson Trust and after he 19 joined the Lisa McPherson Trust, but he wasn't working for 20 me. And -- 21 I mean, I don't know who else. 22 Q Okay. You testified, again yesterday, that 23 moneys -- that the moneys from Mr. Minton were loans to you 24 personally. 25 A That's right. 0154 1 Q Okay. And that at the beginning of 2000, 2 thereabouts, the end of '99 or the beginning of 2000, you 3 had an oral conversation -- I guess conversations are 4 oral -- you had a conversation with Mr. Minton where the 5 deal or the arrangement changed and you now were authorized 6 to use the money any way you wanted, correct? 7 A Correct. 8 Q Now, where did this conversation take place? 9 A It was here in Clearwater. 10 Q And what were the circumstances of it? 11 A My best recollection is that we were just there 12 for the vigil of Lisa McPherson. 13 Q All right. And you -- and -- 14 A I mean, I can't say that, 'cause of course that 15 only happens once, in December -- 16 Q And -- 17 A -- and -- 18 Q And if you didn't -- 19 I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. 20 A So it could be -- I mean, that could be where it 21 was. 22 But he had the same reaction as he had in this 23 courtroom where he said it didn't matter to him. 24 Q Okay. And you didn't feel it necessary to write a 25 letter to him, copying your client, saying that, "We got a 0155 1 new deal, and all this money that you have already given me, 2 and will hopefully give me in the future, I can use it any 3 way I want to. Doesn't even have to be used on the case --" 4 you didn't think that was necessary to put in a letter? 5 A No. It certainly wasn't necessary to my client. 6 Q Well, it wasn't necessary for your own protection? 7 A Well, 20/20 hindsight, yes, I should have written 8 a letter to Mr. Minton. But at that point in time, we had 9 what I thought -- and I still believe we did have at that 10 time -- a really good relationship of trust. 11 Q And I think -- and am I right that the -- that 12 the -- that the event or the set of circumstances that led 13 to this change was your having cancelled all your cases and 14 needing income, basically. 15 A Correct. 16 Q So that it was your intention to begin to take the 17 funds that were given to you by Mr. Minton and use them 18 personally as opposed to on the case. 19 A No. What the funds -- the funds -- 20 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, this gets into 21 that Second DCA decision, and I don't think I should 22 go there, unless, Judge, you tell me I should go 23 there. But I don't think -- you know, what -- just 24 like the Second DCA said, it's none of the business 25 of Scientology -- 0156 1 THE COURT: What the Second DCA said is the 2 moneys being given to you to fund the case and how 3 much money you have to fund the case is irrelevant 4 to the opposition, because it appears to the Second 5 DCA that perhaps they were trying to bleed you out 6 of that money, and they ought not be able to know 7 how much you've got so that they can do that. 8 That's basically what that said. 9 THE WITNESS: That's right. 10 THE COURT: I don't think that would have 11 anything to do, that opinion, with moneys that were 12 given to you as a loan for your own business. I 13 mean, for your own income. I suspect they were 14 talking about moneys that you had for the use of the 15 case. I don't know that, because I -- but I assume 16 that's the posture in which that case was. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's the way I read it. 18 THE COURT: I didn't see all the briefs. Maybe 19 they submitted -- 20 But the way I read it is that they were talking 21 about moneys that you had been given in trust, 22 whatever you want to call it, somehow or another, to 23 use for the case. 24 I doubt that the Second District or me or 25 anybody else would -- would be interested or think 0157 1 it was relevant about money -- to write an opinion 2 on -- moneys that somebody had given you to live on. 3 I don't know that I'd let them go there either. 4 THE WITNESS: I think that's where he wants to 5 go. 6 MR. WEINBERG: What I want -- 7 THE WITNESS: I don't want to answer the 8 question. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I don't want to know how you 10 spent it. I just want him to answer the question. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q So as of that time, you could -- you -- in light 13 of what you told Mr. Minton; you told him that you intended 14 to take some or all -- you can tell us what -- of the money 15 that he was giving you and use it to supplement your income. 16 THE COURT: He said he could use it any way he 17 wanted to at that point in time. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I want to be more 19 specific. 20 THE COURT: Oh. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q You intended, by this new agreement with 23 Mr. Minton, to be able to use the money for personal things 24 if you wanted to. 25 A That's right. I can use it any way I wanted to. 0158 1 Q Now, you didn't see that it was necessary to go 2 back, then, to the Florida Bar, in January of 2000, to get 3 an opinion if it was appropriate to enter into an agreement 4 like this with a third party with regard to a lawsuit where 5 you could do anything you wanted to with the money? You 6 didn't think that that was something that you needed to do? 7 A No. In fact, I confirmed that recently. They 8 said, "We don't care where you go borrow money, personal 9 loans. We're not interested in that." 10 Q All right. In any event, a few months later, in 11 May of 2000, Mr. Minton gave you the UBS $500,000 check in 12 that Bombay Bicycle Club, right? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And he didn't tell you -- you asked him who it was 15 from, and he said, "Friends in Europe." 16 A Right. 17 Q Now -- 18 And he wouldn't tell you who the friends were. 19 A Right. 20 THE COURT: If he asked. I mean, I don't 21 even -- 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q Did you ask him who the friends were? 24 A I don't know. 25 Q And you didn't have a loan agreement with them. 0159 1 A With the friends? 2 Q Yes. 3 A Right. I didn't have a loan agreement. 4 Q And did these European people, these friends in 5 Europe, who you didn't know who they were -- did -- did 6 somebody -- did they authorize and say that it was okay for 7 you to spend this money, $500,000, on personal things, any 8 way you wanted to? 9 A You know, I had no communication with these 10 people, all right? I didn't communicate with anyone 11 except -- 12 If they trusted Mr. Minton enough him give him a 13 $500,000 check, you know, I didn't worry about the friends 14 in Europe and what they were -- asking me any questions. I 15 didn't -- didn't -- 16 Q Well, if you -- 17 A Still don't. 18 Q And the -- and the only -- and the whole deal was 19 you only had to pay it back if you won the case. In other 20 words, got enough money from the settlement to cover it, 21 right? 22 A Right. 23 Q So if you lost the case and you had already spent 24 the $500,000 from these friends in Europe, on personal 25 things, you had no obligation to pay these people back, 0160 1 right? 2 A That's right. It's a nonrecourse loan. 3 Q And that makes sense to you -- 4 A Sure. 5 Q -- that somebody would give you $500,000, with no 6 loan agreement, that you could do any way you want -- you 7 could spend it any way you want to, with no guarantee that 8 it's ever going to be paid back if you lost the case. 9 A That's right. 10 Q That made sense to you. 11 A That's right. 12 THE COURT: One thing that comes to my mind is 13 that -- how did you know or why did you think that 14 these people, who apparently had some interest in 15 this case -- that's what you told us -- would want 16 you to have this money to do whatever you wanted to 17 do with? 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 THE COURT: Did you ever think that maybe -- 20 maybe they -- if -- if you believe that -- that they 21 had different intentions? 22 I mean, did you feel like it was okay, for a 23 half a million dollars that -- that they had given 24 to Mr. Minton, presumably for this case, it would be 25 all right for the two of you all to come to some 0161 1 other agreement? 2 Did you ever ask him, was it okay with these 3 folks that are giving this half a million dollars, 4 for me just to take it and do whatever I want to do 5 with it? 6 THE WITNESS: No, Judge. I didn't ask the 7 question. 8 And by that time, Judge, I had this -- how I 9 perceived the relationship between me and Mr. Minton 10 on money for this case for me to be such that I 11 didn't have to ask that question. I mean, my 12 perception of Mr. Minton at that time, and still is 13 today, that he dealt in this circle of people who 14 wanted to help on the case and had an enormous 15 amount of money and didn't care about spending the 16 money. 17 THE COURT: Okay. I understand that, 'cause 18 that's what you told me yesterday, that somehow or 19 another -- 20 As I said, I tried to, in my own mind, envision 21 if I were involved in this case, but it's hard to 22 do, 'cause I'm not. At least not as a lawyer for 23 one side or the other. 24 This is what you said yesterday: That these 25 people, you presume, had a fear of Scientology -- 0162 1 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 2 THE COURT: -- because they didn't want to be 3 known. 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 THE COURT: And that made sense to you based on 6 what you've learned about suppressive persons and 7 how you believe they were treated by the church. 8 THE WITNESS: Correct. 9 THE COURT: So these people wanted to help out, 10 you believe, with the case. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Well, then, how do you -- how do 13 you figure that these people shouldn't be consulted 14 if it's okay for you to take $500,000, take their 15 money, and use it for something else? 16 THE WITNESS: Because it all goes to me in 17 pursuing this case. 18 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't if you're off 19 doing other things with it. 20 You and Mr. Minton had an agreement, 21 apparently, about that money. You could use it any 22 way you wanted to; that you had no obligation to use 23 it for the case. 24 THE WITNESS: Well -- 25 THE COURT: You surely didn't think those folks 0163 1 just wanted to loan Ken Dandar money? 2 THE WITNESS: No. Because they -- because I 3 was the only one that was pursuing this case, and 4 they knew -- well, I don't know what they knew, but 5 Mr. Minton knew certainly, in -- when this 6 conversation took place at the end of '99, beginning 7 of 2000, that all of my time was devoted to this 8 case. I had cancelled all of these trials. 9 That he knew -- anybody would know that I had 10 to survive in order to take this to trial. 11 And it goes through a lot of expenses. And I'm 12 not going to get into what portions if any -- if 13 any -- 14 THE COURT: I'm not asking you to. I'm just 15 simply saying -- you know, I'm not trying to get you 16 in trouble here, Mr. Dandar. I'm really trying to 17 see whether or not I can believe what you're saying. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay. All right. 19 THE COURT: I really am. 20 THE WITNESS: All right. 21 THE COURT: And -- and you know, that's my role 22 in this. 23 THE WITNESS: Right. 24 THE COURT: You and Mr. Minton disagree on 25 this. And he says you did know it came from him, 0164 1 you say it didn't. 2 THE WITNESS: Correct. 3 THE COURT: You say you thought it came from 4 some of his friends in Europe that had some interest 5 in funding this lawsuit. 6 But now what you've sort of changed and said is 7 that this money didn't have to be used for that. 8 I'm not going to let them go into what you used it 9 for, but I have to presume, if you didn't have to 10 use it for that, you were short on money because of 11 this case, that you had to use it for your personal 12 use. 13 Did you think that these folks had an interest 14 in that? Did you ever say to Mr. Minton, "Well, did 15 you check with them to make sure this is okay, that 16 I put this money and use it for my food and payments 17 and what have you"? 18 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't do that. 19 THE COURT: Well, you think maybe you should 20 have? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, hindsight, I should have 22 done a lot of things differently with Mr. Minton. 23 I -- 24 THE COURT: You see how that causes me some 25 grave concern? 0165 1 THE WITNESS: It does. 2 THE COURT: First of all, it's amazing to me, 3 as I said to you yesterday, that a lawyer -- that 4 somebody would give you half a million dollars. I 5 mean, I just can't -- it's hard for me to imagine 6 that. Huge dollars. 7 But then to think that these same strangers, 8 who you didn't know and didn't ask about, that you 9 know of, would give you money to eat on and live on, 10 is even stranger. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, that's not exactly how that 12 conversation with Mr. Minton took place, back at the 13 beginning of 2000, end of '99, to eat on. No. It 14 was money that I could spend any way I wanted. But 15 Mr. Minton still trusted me to spend it correctly. 16 THE COURT: But -- 17 THE WITNESS: But I could do whatever -- you 18 know, he gave me full discretion on how to spend the 19 money -- 20 THE COURT: So you -- 21 THE WITNESS: -- because of that trust. 22 THE COURT: You felt that these people gave the 23 money to Mr. Minton to do what he wanted to do with 24 it. 25 THE WITNESS: No. I felt that these people 0166 1 knew Mr. Minton quite well and would rely on him as 2 to how I would handle this money. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: I mean, I know this sounds 5 bizarre. 6 THE COURT: It sounds very bizarre. 7 THE WITNESS: The first check was bizarre 8 enough. That was bizarre. 9 THE COURT: But I mean, the money's growing. 10 We're now up from a hundred-thousand-dollar check, 11 which was bizarre enough, where you wrote the 12 Florida Bar, to a half-a-million-dollar check. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, we are. 14 THE COURT: Five times that amount. That is 15 five times as bizarre. And five times as bizarre 16 and it came from folks, you don't even know who it 17 came from, from Europe, from some country -- you 18 don't know if it's one, two, five, 10, a hundred. 19 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 20 THE COURT: And if Mr. Minton dropped dead of a 21 heart attack, you wouldn't have a clue. So this 22 money just obviously would then just inure to your 23 benefit. 24 THE WITNESS: No. I never, never, never 25 anticipated that -- 0167 1 THE COURT: Well, you couldn't give it back to 2 him. He'd be dead. 3 THE WITNESS: No. 4 THE COURT: And he wouldn't be able to tell you 5 who these people were. 6 THE WITNESS: I just -- 7 THE COURT: Where were you going to give it? 8 THE WITNESS: I just -- well, it didn't -- 9 honest to God, it didn't cross my mind that he -- he 10 could drop dead. That was a silly thing for me to 11 do. 12 THE COURT: Maybe it happens when you turn 60. 13 But I'll be honest with you, I think about those 14 things all the time. I'm always thinking about it. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Unfortunately, at 52, I think of 16 that as well. 17 THE COURT: Do you? Well -- 18 I mean, I would have taught of that, Mr. 19 Dandar. Maybe that's because I'm 60, and you're a 20 lot younger than I. But I would have thought, "Gee, 21 if that man drops dead -- this is a lot of money. 22 This is a lot of money. I've got to know who to pay 23 this back to." 24 You had hoped to recover a substantial amount 25 of money in this lawsuit, right? 0168 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 THE COURT: You had hoped to be able to pay 3 this whole 2-plus million dollars back to Mr. Minton 4 and these people. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: And -- and so obviously, if Mr. -- 7 if you're to be believed -- if Mr. Minton were alive 8 and you recovered a lot of money, you'd pay back the 9 $2 million and assume that he wouldn't put it in his 10 pocket, right? I mean, after all -- 11 THE WITNESS: Well -- 12 THE COURT: -- if this came from these people, 13 you had some obligation to see to it they got 14 repaid. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: But it just didn't occur to you, I 17 guess you're saying, that if he dropped dead -- 18 And apparently he didn't tell anybody else 19 where -- I mean, he didn't -- he -- he played 20 bizarre games with Mr. Merrett, so he wouldn't have 21 been of any help to you. 22 THE WITNESS: That's true. 23 THE COURT: He didn't tell Ms. Brooks about his 24 money because he was -- you know, she learned later. 25 So the only -- there would have been no one if 0169 1 he'd have dropped dead. 2 Where would you have sent this money? Where 3 would you have sent this half-a-million-dollar 4 check? 5 THE WITNESS: Judge, I didn't -- this did not 6 go through my mind. 7 THE COURT: Well, you know, you ought to 8 start -- 9 THE WITNESS: I agree. 10 THE COURT: -- thinking about things like that. 11 THE WITNESS: I agree. 12 THE COURT: Excuse me for interrupting. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q Given this what you've just described as a bizarre 15 set of circumstances in May of 2000 when you got this 16 $500,000 check, did you go back to the Florida Bar to get an 17 opinion if it was okay to take $500,000 from unknown, 18 offshore persons, with no written agreement and no strings 19 attached? 20 A No. 21 THE COURT: I think we can assume in the 22 scenario as advanced by Mr. Dandar -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 24 THE COURT: -- that at the point where 25 Mr. Minton stated to him that he could use the money 0170 1 any way he wanted to, he would have had absolutely 2 no obligation to ask the Florida Bar about anything. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 4 THE COURT: I mean, that's -- that's -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: I guess there's one other 6 question I should ask. 7 THE COURT: I mean, the Florida Bar would not 8 be interested in somebody getting a loan from -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I guess they -- they 10 might be -- 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Well, did you -- did you tell your client that now 13 all the money that was coming from Mr. Minton, you could 14 spend it on something other than the case? 15 A I think we had the discussions several times, but 16 specifically, I don't recall -- you know, call her up and 17 say, "I just had a meeting with Mr. Minton," no, I don't 18 think that happened. Because it didn't matter. I was 19 responsible for all the costs. 20 Q But given the fact that, at the beginning, there 21 was this exchange of letters that we already went over 22 between Mr. Minton and you and you and your client; your 23 client was aware of this money that Mr. Minton was given -- 24 was giving to you to fund the case, at the beginning didn't 25 you think it would have been necessary, under your 0171 1 obligations -- under the -- to -- you know, under the -- as 2 a bar member, to get her approval that was okay now -- if 3 somebody was -- if Mr. Minton continued to give you money, 4 or the money he'd already given you -- 5 A No. That -- 6 Q Let me -- 7 A That -- 8 Q Let me finish my question. 9 A Oh. It's a long question. 10 Q That you could spend it any way you want to? 11 A No. 12 As I said -- this is asked and answered before -- 13 but I've confirmed that recently with the bar. They have no 14 interest in my personal loans. 15 Q Now, you said yesterday that it made no difference 16 to you how Mr. Minton paid you, whether it was a Swiss check 17 or cash or a regular check, right? Something to that 18 effect. 19 A Right. 20 Q But did you hide the fact of receiving this 21 $500,000 check and ultimately the $250,000 check from people 22 like your trial consultant, Dr. Garko? 23 THE COURT: That, he's explained too. He 24 doesn't call it hiding; he just didn't discuss his 25 finances with those people. 0172 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q You didn't disclose that fact to your staff. 3 A I never do. 4 Q And you didn't disclose to them that there was any 5 new deal -- new deal with Mr. Minton, where you could spend 6 whatever money Mr. Minton gave you -- 'cause they knew that 7 you were getting money from -- from Mr. Minton -- any way 8 you wanted to. 9 A I don't discuss these things with anyone -- 10 Q Okay. 11 A -- on my staff. 12 Q Fast forward. 13 Then in March of 2002, Mr. Minton gave you -- sent 14 you in the mail, a $250,000 UBS check, right? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And I heard you say yesterday -- I hadn't heard 17 this before, but you said that Mr. Minton said that, you 18 needed to deposit it quickly because the fat man or the -- 19 the fat man was nervous about it? 20 A Yeah. There was something going on in the Swiss 21 banks, where this person was. 22 Q And did it concern you, Mr. Dandar, that that 23 money might be dirty money? 24 A No. There was something, he believed, from this 25 person, that you, your client, was doing something in the 0173 1 Swiss banks. And he wouldn't elaborate on what that was. 2 But he thought it was something from the court. And I told 3 him there was nothing, as far as I knew, that came from the 4 court to cause the Swiss banks to do anything. I don't even 5 know the identity of the Swiss banks. 6 Q All right. And this money was under the same 7 arrangement as the $500,000. You could do with it what you 8 wanted to. 9 A Correct. 10 Q No loan with these people over in Europe -- no 11 loan agreements. Just like the $500,000. 12 A That's right. 13 THE COURT: Remember what I've -- what I've 14 said before, I'm not sure that this 250,000 is 15 relevant. You're going to have to persuade me in 16 your brief that somehow it is. This was after all 17 these allegations, all -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: It's relevant to his 19 credibility. 20 THE COURT: It may be relevant to his 21 credibility -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 23 THE COURT: -- but it's not relevant to any 24 allegation of perjury -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: No, no. No, it's not. 0174 1 THE COURT: -- or -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's relevant to his 3 credibility. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q And a -- and -- 6 THE COURT: And I would agree with that. 7 But it's not relevant to the issues as far as 8 perjury, suborning perjury and that sort -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: It doesn't -- it was -- it 10 was -- you know -- 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. WEINBERG: -- after the fact -- 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- so to speak. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q But -- and you did -- 17 I mean, did you think that it would have been 18 appropriate, particularly in light of the fact that 19 Mr. Minton said that -- that they were nervous about this, 20 to go to the Florida Bar at that point and say, "Is there a 21 problem about taking money like this from offshore, when I 22 don't know who it's from, and they're nervous about it?" 23 A No. 24 Because -- you know, this is not offshore money, 25 by the way. This check comes from Chase Manhattan Bank in 0175 1 New York, from the UBS bank in Switzerland. These are 2 reputable banks. This is not some Antigua bank -- 3 Q Well, excuse -- 4 A These are not -- these are reputable banks. I'm 5 not worried -- 6 And it's not offshore money. It's a New York -- 7 it came from a New York City bank. 8 Q Oh, I -- I'm sorry. I was under the impression 9 that -- that you were saying that this came from people in 10 Europe. 11 A I'm talking about the check. 12 (A discussion was held off the record.) 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q If that's -- if that's the case, then what was 15 Mr. Minton nervous about the Swiss banks, that you said, 16 that it wasn't offshore money? 17 A He wouldn't tell me. He wouldn't go into any 18 detail other than what I just told you. 19 Q Well, you knew that there was a subpoena -- at 20 this time, in March of '90 -- I'm sorry -- March of 2002, 21 you were aware that the Church of Scientology in this case 22 had already subpoenaed the -- is it Dresdner Bank -- 23 Dresdner Bank -- Dresdner Bank -- for Mr. Minton's -- 24 seeking Mr. Minton's records in Swiss -- Switz -- 25 Switzerland, right? 0176 1 A No. In the fall of 2002, I believe you subpoenaed 2 Dresdner Bank in Los Angeles. And I don't even know who 3 Dresdner Bank is, and not even to this day. 4 THE COURT: Had the church subpoenaed 5 Mr. Minton's records from Switzerland? 6 MR. WEINBERG: No. From the Dresdner -- from 7 the bank in -- in L.A. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Seeking the -- 10 THE COURT: Well, you said Switzerland. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, it's a Swiss bank as I 12 understand it. 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I think. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q It's a Swiss bank, isn't it? 17 A I don't know. I know it's in Los Angeles, so -- 18 Q But you didn't connect the dots at that point, in 19 March of 2002, that this person that was -- that Mr. Minton 20 was talking about, this fat man that was nervous -- you 21 didn't connect the dots that that -- that person was 22 Mr. Minton. 23 A No. Not at all. 24 Q And as before, you thought that there were people 25 in Europe, some -- I guess one person in Europe, some fat 0177 1 guy, that -- that was willing to give you $250,000, without 2 you knowing who he was, with no loan agreement, that you 3 could use personally if you wanted to. 4 A That's right. 5 That was the first time -- that New Hampshire trip 6 was the first time, I believe, that Mr. Minton ever came up 7 with the name the fat man. 8 THE COURT: But you thought that this was still 9 from these friends in Europe, didn't you? 10 THE WITNESS: Oh, yes. I mean, that's what he 11 told me. I mean, he told me in front of Dr. Garko, 12 as I said yesterday, in a very straight, forceful 13 voice, that he had no more money for me. 14 THE COURT: So -- you know, I hate to be -- I 15 just hate to inquire here, but Mr. Minton is -- you 16 know, I can say that because I'm a heavyset woman. 17 I'm a fat lady. 18 Mr. Minton's an overweight man, right? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Yeah. 21 So you know -- we have -- I mean, I might call 22 myself a fat -- fat girl. I say it sometimes. 23 It didn't even occur to you that he was 24 talking -- when he says, "This money comes from 25 friends in Europe," that's kind of a plural. Then 0178 1 all of a sudden he's saying, "Well, if you -- if you 2 make -- if you make me not being so hated on the 3 Internet because I'm not funding this case," which 4 is what Ms. Greenway apparently was doing, " -- if 5 you take care of that, then the fat man will give 6 you money." 7 That -- the person he wanted taken care of was 8 himself, right? On the Internet. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 THE COURT: And he's over -- an overweight guy, 11 right? 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 13 THE COURT: And so he then says, "If you take 14 care of me on that Internet, maybe the fat man will 15 have some more money for you." 16 And you're on the telephone to him, saying, 17 "Send me the money. Where is the money? I don't 18 have the money yet," or writing back and forth to 19 him. And yet it still doesn't occur to you that 20 money was from Mr. Minton, is what your testimony 21 under oath is. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, Judge. A hundred 23 percent. 24 I mean, you had to be there at that New 25 Hampshire -- his house, on the way he explained 0179 1 that, and the way he explained that these -- this 2 person in Europe was upset because he didn't want to 3 get attacked if his name ever came out, and you 4 know, he wanted Mr. Minton -- 5 Mr. Minton apparently couldn't persuade him to 6 send me the money unless Mr. Minton was happy with 7 me. 8 THE COURT: So you thought this was a singular 9 friend in Europe. 10 THE WITNESS: Because he called him the fat 11 man. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: And you know, I knew -- tried to 14 get out of him who -- 15 THE COURT: But you thought that this guy, this 16 fat man, this unknown person in Europe, cared about 17 Mr. Minton being attacked on the Internet. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, it was actually the other 19 way around. It was Mr. Minton would not persuade 20 this person to do this unless Mr. Minton was happy 21 with -- the attacks went away. 22 Ms. Greenway, by the way, was not the person on 23 the Internet attacking him. 24 THE COURT: Well, he thought it was 25 Ms. Greenway. 0180 1 THE WITNESS: Oh, he thinks Ms. Greenway -- 2 Stacy Brooks thinks Ms. Greenway is the -- 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 THE WITNESS: -- epicenter of all his problems. 5 THE COURT: But he thought it was Ms. Greenway. 6 THE WITNESS: He did, yes. 7 THE COURT: Whoever it was, he knew you -- you 8 could stop -- he thought you could stop it. 9 THE WITNESS: He thought I could -- well, he 10 thought I could persuade them to stop it -- 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 THE WITNESS: -- in order to get funding. 13 THE COURT: And in fact, that happened. 14 THE WITNESS: It did happen, 'cause I -- I went 15 out and I said, "Please stop this." 16 THE COURT: "Please stop." Right. 17 And so it stopped. And then this -- this 18 fellow in Europe was so pleased that this attack 19 against Mr. Minton had stopped that he sends you a 20 quarter of a million dollars. 21 THE WITNESS: According to Mr. Minton, that's 22 right. 23 THE COURT: And it didn't -- 24 THE WITNESS: And all the attacks were -- 25 THE COURT: And it didn't sound unusual to you. 0181 1 THE WITNESS: Of course -- 2 THE COURT: You had no reason to think, "Gee, 3 Mr. Minton might be the source of this money." 4 THE WITNESS: No. Mr. Minton was the person 5 who could persuade this person to send the money. 6 THE COURT: You realize how silly this sounds? 7 I mean -- 8 THE WITNESS: Well -- 9 THE COURT: It's -- it's -- I mean -- 10 THE WITNESS: It's -- 11 THE COURT: -- silly -- 12 Are you that naive? 13 THE WITNESS: No. It sounds extremely silly as 14 we talk about it like this. 15 But at the time this was all going on, you 16 know, the problems with the Swiss banks didn't make 17 any sense to me because there's nothing coming from 18 this court, so I didn't know what he was talking 19 about on the phone. 20 THE COURT: Well, you -- you do know why folks 21 use Swiss bank accounts sometimes. It could be for 22 very legitimate reasons and it can be for 23 illegitimate reasons. I mean, it can be you're 24 trying to hide your money from your spouse, the 25 government; it can be that you just don't want to 0182 1 put all your money in this country -- there's -- 2 But there -- there are reasons why some folks 3 use a Swiss account, that we would all know would be 4 hiding our money. 5 THE WITNESS: You're right. 6 And -- and you just mentioned keep it from your 7 spouse. I mean, that was another thing that drove 8 Mr. Minton crazy, was that Mr. Moxon had set 9 Mrs. Minton for deposition, I believe, in April of 10 this year, and that caused him a great concern, 11 because apparently his wife isn't -- doesn't know 12 what's going on in this case or what he does with 13 his money or something. I'm not sure. I mean, that 14 just made him go crazy. 15 And then the Swiss bank things were happening; 16 the Nigerian thing was happening again -- 17 THE COURT: If I'm to believe you, Mr. Dandar, 18 on this aspect of your testimony, I must believe 19 that you were that naive that you couldn't figure 20 this out. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, Judge, I didn't try to 22 figure out the March check. I mean, he -- I had 23 already received the check, back in May of 2000, on 24 this UBS bank check. And you know, it wasn't funny 25 money, as far as I was concerned. 0183 1 THE COURT: Sure wasn't. It's a lot of money. 2 THE WITNESS: It was a lot of money. 3 But at that time, I had already received over a 4 million dollars, so it's just like, these people 5 have a lot of money and they really care about this 6 case. 7 THE COURT: And they all got together 8 collectively and put some money in a Swiss bank to 9 send to you anonymously. 10 THE WITNESS: That's right. 11 And it's not as farfetched as you think. 12 THE COURT: Through Mr. Minton. 13 THE WITNESS: That's right. 14 In fact -- I'm not going to get into any 15 details, but there are people out there trying to do 16 that right now. 17 THE COURT: Well, I do hope that you find out 18 who they are so that you can repay them if they want 19 their money back. 20 THE WITNESS: I will. But it most likely will 21 be a point person who I'll have to respond with. 22 Because these people do not want Scientology to know 23 who they are. And we already went through that 24 yesterday. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 0184 1 THE WITNESS: In fact, I -- I do have 2 affidavits from my former clients, who were 3 interviewed extensively by investigators from 4 Scientology -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: -- about accusing me of all kinds 7 of crimes. 8 THE COURT: Is it time for a morning break? 9 MR. WEINBERG: We can. I have a few more -- 10 THE COURT: Let's go ahead and take it. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. 12 THE COURT: Let's take about 15 minutes. 13 (A recess was taken at 10:38 a.m.) 14 (The proceedings were resumed at 11:00 a.m.) 15 THE COURT: You may continue. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q As you sit here today, Mr. Dandar, you have no 18 idea who the fat man is? 19 A Well, Mr. Minton says it's him. 20 Can I say that under oath? No. 21 Q And as you sit here today, you don't know who 22 you're supposed to pay back the $250,000? 23 A From March, 2002? 24 Q Yes. 25 A That's correct. 0185 1 Q And if Mr. Minton asks you for the money back, 2 will you pay him? 3 A After I deduct my damages for what he's done to 4 me, sure. 5 Q Now, how did you think that Mr. Minton was able to 6 obtain -- to get a copy of the check, both the $500,000 and 7 the $250,000 check, if he wasn't the one who arranged for 8 it? 9 A Scientology got it first. 10 Q Oh, that's what you believe? 11 A I believe that a hundred percent. 12 Q So you think that -- that the Church of 13 Scientology was able to get this check, that didn't have 14 Mr. Minton's name on it, but that Mr. Minton, who arranged 15 for it and who gave them to you, couldn't. 16 A Mr. Minton could not get it because he didn't 17 commit a criminal act to get it. Scientology got it. And 18 it doesn't surprise me that Scientology got it. And that's 19 what caused Mr. Minton to turn and lie for you. 20 Q All right. And you -- you obviously have the 21 evidence to indicate that the Church of Scientology was 22 the -- was the -- was the one that got these checks, not 23 Mr. Minton. 24 A Well, I have the -- I have the testimony of 25 Mr. Prince indicating that to me. I have Mr. Minton telling 0186 1 me in vague terms that something was going on in the Swiss 2 banks, and the -- and then I have the -- Mr. Pope cancelling 3 the UBS deposition to get the checks, telling me he didn't 4 have the checks. And I called up the UBS bank and said, 5 "Did you give them the checks? Why did they cancel your 6 deposition?" He said, "No --" the attorney for the bank 7 said, "No. We didn't give Mr. Pope the check." And then 8 Mr. Pope has the check. 9 So I find that a confirmation that your client 10 committed another criminal act and got the two UBS checks. 11 Q And you remember the $500,000 UBS check that 12 Mr. Minton identified and gave to Ms. Greenway and 13 Mr. Alexander for his part in The Profit? 14 A I remember the testimony. 15 Q Do you remember those? 16 A I remember the testimony. 17 Q Do you remember the check? 18 A I've seen in it this courtroom. 19 Q And did that -- and did that -- that -- does that 20 indicate to you, if Mr. Minton was able to produce and did 21 produce a $500,000 UBS check to Ms. Greenway and 22 Mr. Alexander as their part -- as part of the payments on -- 23 the schedule of payments on The Profit, that he is the one 24 that -- that -- that caused the $250,000 and $500,000 checks 25 to you, from his accounts, to be issued? 0187 1 A No. Because there's a difference. And that 2 difference is that Ms. Brooks -- and I call into question 3 how much she knew about the fat man -- Ms. Brooks is the one 4 that hand-delivered that check to Mr. (sic) Greenway, so 5 Ms. Brooks could have copied that, and probably did copy 6 that, before she gave it to Mr. Alexander. 7 Q So you think that the fat man or these people in 8 Europe, unidentified, also financed The Profit as well? 9 A I have no idea. I don't know if they used the fat 10 man for the -- to explain the movie deal. I had nothing to 11 do with the movie deal. I mean, I don't know what their -- 12 they said back and forth to each other. 13 Q Now, we talked about -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Just to clarify things, your 15 Honor, we -- you had asked or I had said something 16 about the Dresdner Bank, and I now have the records 17 to indicate exactly what happened. And I was either 18 going to tell you or go over that with Mr. -- 19 THE COURT: I believe it was you that said it 20 was the Dresdner Bank of Switzerland, so if it's not 21 the Swiss bank, then that's fine. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q Well, what -- what -- do you remember that what 24 happened -- I can show you these records -- is that 25 Ms. Brooks -- 0188 1 THE COURT: You don't have to put this in this 2 record. It was your misstatement, apparently. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, no. It's not a 4 misstatement. 5 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 6 MR. WEINBERG: It's not a misstatement. 7 THE COURT: So it was a Swiss bank. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. It is a Swiss bank. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: But what happened was -- 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Do you remember that Ms. Brooks, in an August 13 deposition, identified a $500,000 payment or transfer of 14 check that the LMT had received earlier? You remember that? 15 A I think it was a wire transfer -- 16 Q Right. 17 A -- as she said in her deposition. 18 Q And then the -- then the church set the deposition 19 of Bank of America in December of 2001 to get the -- to get 20 records with regard to the LMT, concerning that transfer. 21 Do you remember that? 22 A I don't remember the date, but I remember them 23 getting the Bank of America account. 24 Q Right. 25 And that from the Bank of American -- from the 0189 1 Bank of America account of the LMT, there was a -- a -- a 2 wire transfer document that indicated a $500,000 -- it's 3 499,988 -- wire transfer on or about March 19th, 2001 to the 4 LMT from the Dresdner Bank, AG branch. Do you remember 5 that? 6 A If you say so. 7 THE COURT: That's a different Swiss bank than 8 the one the 500,000 and the 250 came from, right? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q But AG means Switzerland, right? 13 A I don't know. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I've marked, your Honor, as 15 169 -- 16 THE COURT: You're going to have to tell me 17 this, because I do not know the answer to this. AG 18 means Switzerland? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 20 THE COURT: What does it mean? What is AG? 21 MR. LIROT: I thought it meant "silver." 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't know -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: It's -- it's the nomenclature 24 that is used -- in -- I think, in Switzerland, with 25 regard to certain corporations. 0190 1 MR. MOXON: It means incorporated. It's used 2 in Switzerland and Germany. "Inc." would be the 3 United States. 4 THE COURT: Did you know that, Mr. Dandar? 5 THE WITNESS: No. I never knew that. 6 A You know, this is from the Internet site. How -- 7 what is this -- 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q This is the document that was produced at the Bank 10 of America depo -- 11 A Okay. 12 Q -- all right? 13 A I don't -- I don't know. I wasn't there, so -- 14 Q Right. 15 And what it shows is -- just so we can go over 16 this -- a 500 -- or 499,988 wire transfer -- 17 THE COURT: If he doesn't know anything about 18 it, there's no point in going over it. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he was -- 20 THE COURT: He said he wasn't there. He 21 doesn't know anything about it. 22 MR. WEINBERG: He was at the depo. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. It was a depo 24 that I thought did not involve me, but -- 25 0191 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q In any event -- 3 THE WITNESS: Come to find out, it did. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q In any event, what occurred after that, 6 Mr. Dandar, was that the church in this case filed a motion 7 for commission for deposition in a foreign state, filed the 8 motion on February 14th, 2002, seeking permission to 9 subpoena the Dresdner Bank AG with regard to payments by 10 Mr. Minton to LMT. 11 A I find it curious that you didn't pursue that 12 deposition. 13 Q Well -- 14 A It was all set up and you didn't pursue it. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Mark this, please, as the next 16 exhibit. 17 THE CLERK: 270. 18 A So I would add that onto my list of more 19 confirmation that you had the checks already. 20 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar objected to 21 that, and we agreed to taking it off. And he made 22 an objection. It was just during the whole time -- 23 THE COURT: Well, I don't know why it was taken 24 off. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Well, so we -- 0192 1 MR. MOXON: He's not testifying now. He's 2 making comments. So I'm just trying to correct; 3 that we had a hearing and he objected -- 4 THE COURT: No. I believe he's testifying that 5 that is, in his mind, another aspect of why he 6 believes that you all had the check first, and that 7 that's why Mr. Minton changed his testimony. That's 8 what he's testified to. And he's saying this 9 doesn't change his mind at all; that is more 10 confirmation. 11 Now -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: That's 270. 13 THE COURT: -- that's what he's testifying to. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And this is 271, which is the 15 commission that was issued. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Now, so what you're saying is -- is that as of 18 February 14th, 2002, you believe that the church had a copy 19 of the $500,000 check? 20 THE COURT: This check is not even the same 21 check we're talking about. 22 MR. WEINBERG: No. It's a totally different 23 check. 24 THE COURT: Right. So yes, he's saying that. 25 That's what he said. That's what he said before. 0193 1 Please don't -- 2 And this has nothing -- no bearing on that. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'm just clarifying the 4 record. 5 THE COURT: You're clarifying the record with a 6 $500,000 check from one Swiss bank that has nothing 7 to do with another Swiss bank check, is what 8 Mr. Dandar's talking about. So you really can't 9 clarify the record. 10 MR. WEINBERG: No. The point -- the point 11 was -- is that when Mr. Minton said that he was 12 nervous or the person in Europe was nervous, what 13 was going on just before that is that there was this 14 motion that was filed in order to attempt to get 15 records from the Dresdner Bank. And what we asked 16 for was the Dresdner Bank, L.A. branch, you'll see 17 in this motion, because we didn't have any ability 18 to go to Switzerland. 19 But -- but -- 20 And then there was an objection to that. 21 So the point that we were making, to clarify 22 the record, is that there would be a reason, and 23 Mr. Dandar knew it, for Mr. Minton to be nervous. 24 THE COURT: I see. 25 THE WITNESS: And -- 0194 1 THE COURT: Well, of course, we also know from 2 this record that Mr. Minton was most aggravated that 3 Stacy Brooks had ever told you all anything about 4 the Swiss bank -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 6 THE COURT: -- right? 7 I mean, he was beside himself -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 9 THE COURT: -- in -- in irritation with Stacy 10 Brooks. 11 And I guess this is -- this is what that's all 12 about, right? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 14 THE COURT: Because this is the check that went 15 to LMT. 16 MR. WEINBERG: This is a wire transfer that 17 went to LMT. 18 THE COURT: Right. 19 MR. WEINBERG: That, pursuant to discovery, we 20 obtained. 21 THE WITNESS: Judge, I can't -- and you said 22 something -- I need to maybe correct you or just 23 bring to your attention -- that I -- none of us know 24 if the Dresdner Bank is one of the sources -- 25 THE COURT: Oh. 0195 1 THE WITNESS: -- that he used for the UBS 2 check. 3 THE COURT: That's right. Okay. Because he 4 took the Fifth Amendment on the source. 5 THE WITNESS: On all that. Yes. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Right now I've put in front of you -- 8 THE COURT: See, that's where I don't 9 understand enough. 10 In other words, the money that goes for the UBS 11 check comes from a -- some bank. 12 THE WITNESS: Right. 13 THE COURT: And we don't know what that is. 14 Could be this bank, is what you're saying. 15 THE WITNESS: Could be this bank. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think -- 17 THE WITNESS: Could be another bank. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I think Mr. Minton said it was 19 not this bank. That was the one -- he did answer 20 that question. He said it was not the Dresdner 21 Bank. My recollection. I could be wrong, but -- 22 THE COURT: I can't remember, but -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: In the deep recesses of my mind, 24 I think he said that. 25 0196 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q In any event, I've put in front of you, I think, 3 270 and 271. 270 is a motion for deposition in a foreign 4 state. 5 And if you go to page 2, number 5, you'll see 6 paragraph 5 there is a request for an issuance of subpoena 7 to Dresdner Bank. You see that, Mr. Dandar? I mean, that's 8 what the motion is about. The wherefore clause. 9 A Right. It's to get his personal account. 10 Q Right. 11 And then 271 is the commission that was eventually 12 signed as of March 20th, 2002, by Judge Schaeffer. Do you 13 see that? 14 A Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: All right. So I offer, your 16 Honor, for the record, 269, which is the Bank of 17 America record with regard to the wire transfer; 18 270, which was the motion for commission; and 271, 19 which is your order. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 What is 269 again? 22 MR. WEINBERG: That was this wire transfer -- 23 THE COURT: I mean, this is -- this is an 24 Internet document? 25 MR. WEINBERG: No. It was produced by the Bank 0197 1 of America. 2 THE COURT: Oh. 3 THE WITNESS: It's definitely an Internet 4 document, though. 5 THE COURT: Yeah. Seems like it's an Internet 6 document. 7 MR. WEINBERG: This is the document, I'll 8 represent, that the Bank of America produced in the 9 deposition with regard to a subpoena concerning wire 10 transfers to the LMT. 11 THE COURT: Okay. I'm obviously very ignorant 12 about these types of things. But if my order is 13 signed March the 20th of 2002 -- this little -- 14 whatever you call it, on the bottom of this 15 document, is dated September 12th, 2001. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: That's when the Bank of 18 America -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: That's from the bank, from 20 their -- 21 In other words, there was two different 22 proceedings. The -- the commission is to -- is to 23 get a subpoena to the Dresdner Bank. The document 24 you're looking at is what was produced by the Bank 25 of America. 0198 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's a totally different -- 3 there were two -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. WEINBERG: -- subpoenas. We just followed 6 the trail, so to speak. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Is there any particular reason why you didn't have 9 Mr. Prince put in his April, 2002 affidavit that Mr. Minton 10 had supposedly told him that the church already had the 11 $500,000 check? 12 A I didn't help or contribute to Mr. Prince's 13 affidavit at all. 14 Q But that is -- you're now asserting that that is 15 the basis -- that is -- that is the basis for your assertion 16 that Mr. Minton has turned, because you say that Mr. Prince 17 says that Mr. Minton said that the church already had the 18 check. 19 THE COURT: That is one of his bases. He gave 20 a whole lot. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 22 A You follow the money, you follow the solution. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q Okay. Go to a different area. 25 Now, your firm recently filed a motion to strike 0199 1 petition to define scope of accounting and to require 2 expedited accounting, filed by the Church of Scientology 3 Flag Service Organization, and motion for attorneys' fees 4 and costs in the probate court. Do you remember? Do you 5 know what I'm talking about? 6 A Yes. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I'm going to have this 8 marked. I have one question about it. 9 THE CLERK: 272. 10 MR. WEINBERG: 272, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Is the -- did I allow that 12 document, the petition to define -- in other words, 13 the original request by the church in another 14 lawsuit to come into evidence in this hearing? If I 15 did not, and this is going to come in, so is that. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think anybody offered 17 it. 18 But I have a question about an -- 19 THE COURT: Well, he did. He -- he gave it to 20 me to show the church was still trying to find out 21 what it -- how much money -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 23 THE COURT: -- he had left. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 25 I had a question about an assertion in here -- 0200 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. WEINBERG: -- okay? 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Now, if you go to page 2, paragraph 5 -- 5 By the way, this is a pleading that was filed by 6 your firm, signed by your brother, on -- doesn't even have 7 the date on it. But it was filed in June of 2002, is that 8 right? 9 A That's what it looks like. See my brother's -- 10 Q Apparently he didn't put the date on it. It's 11 just June of 2002. 12 If you go to paragraph 5 on page 2, you all assert 13 in there, quote, that in paragraph 3 of the petition, Flag 14 admits that the funds loaned by Mr. Minton were to be used 15 exclusively for the expenses of the wrongful death case. 16 Thus Flag admits that there is a restriction on the funds 17 and not to be used to pay Flag." That's what you all say 18 there, right? 19 A That's what my brother said in this document. 20 Q Well -- so are you -- is you -- are you and your 21 brother taking one position in this hearing, that there are 22 no restrictions on the funds, and another position in front 23 of Judge Penick? 24 THE COURT: Counsel, that is grossly unfair. 25 This is what he's saying your position is, not his 0201 1 position. 2 MR. WEINBERG: My understanding of -- 3 THE COURT: That's what Flag admits. 4 MR. WEINBERG: But in this -- in the 5 proceeding, that's the position that they're taking, 6 is that -- is that they're -- 7 THE COURT: Well, you can't prove that by 8 number 5. By number 5 it says that -- 9 They're trying to state that you admit certain 10 things, and therefore, based on what you admit, 11 certain things ought to happen. That has absolutely 12 no -- nothing to do with what he says or what he 13 thinks or anything of the sort. It's something the 14 opposition admitted, and now they're saying you 15 can't admit something and take a contrary position. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I guess my position would be it 17 would be difficult, I would think, in light of their 18 testimony, to take a position in probate court that 19 somehow there was a restriction on the funds, 20 given -- given Mr. Dandar's testimony. That was my 21 only point. 22 THE COURT: You said there was a restriction on 23 the funds. 24 MR. WEINBERG: No. They're arguing that -- 25 that we -- that -- that, in the probate court, the 0202 1 court should conclude that there's restriction on 2 the funds, and therefore, the church can't get at 3 them. But in this proceeding, he says that, 4 "There's no restriction on the funds. I can use 5 them any way I want to." 6 THE COURT: I have no idea what they argued in 7 the probate court. I know what this paragraph says. 8 And what this paragraph says is that, as a lawyer, 9 he is suggesting that you, having made an 10 admission -- not you, but the church, Flag -- having 11 made an admission, cannot now be heard to argue 12 differently. 13 It's grossly unfair to ask this lawyer if he's 14 taking a contrary position because of something that 15 his brother said you admitted in another lawsuit. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I'll -- 17 THE WITNESS: That's correct, Judge. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I'll go on. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Now -- 21 THE COURT: And by the way, as I said, if this 22 document comes in, so does the other one. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't offer it. 24 THE COURT: Well, then, that whole business 25 ought to be stricken. 0203 1 What are you folks doing over there? 2 THE WITNESS: We were waiting to see what the 3 question was, I guess. At least I was. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I can go ahead? 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Now, you have stated that -- theorized that Bob 8 Minton was extorted and blackmailed to testify in this 9 proceeding against you, right? 10 A I don't think I ever called it a theory, but I 11 stated that, yes. That's a factual statement. 12 Q Now, you've previously, in another -- 13 THE COURT: Excuse me just for a second. 14 I don't know where it was, but there was a 15 document that was filed either by Mr. Prince as an 16 affidavit pertaining to this, or it was in your 17 motion, your brief motion, where that was alleged. 18 Because when I realized there were allegations of 19 not only perjury but extortion, that's when I felt 20 it necessary to call the state attorney's office and 21 advise them there was some serious allegations being 22 made and that I would report to them later. 23 So I don't know where that came, but you're 24 right; it came very early. And it was in something 25 filed in opposition to what you filed alleging 0204 1 perjury. Not that I didn't consider that serious, 2 but that hit the paper. And consequently -- I think 3 it hit the paper -- 4 Somehow everybody, I thought, knew about it. 5 But when I saw the extortion allegations, I thought, 6 "Boy, I'd better notify the state so that they know 7 that there's some serious allegations of criminal 8 offenses --" 9 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 10 THE COURT: "-- being made." 11 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 12 THE COURT: So I saw it early on. 13 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q And you, Mr. Dandar -- you recall that you 16 previously, in another proceeding completely unrelated to 17 the Church of Scientology, used allegations of extortion and 18 blackmail by the Church of Scientology to seek from federal 19 magistrate Elizabeth Jenkins, protection from turning over 20 records, financial records, in relation to a rule 11 21 sanction that was issued against you. Do you remember that? 22 A You sure don't have any of your facts correct. 23 Let me tell what you the facts are. 24 Mr. Pope got -- representing now not only Flag, 25 but RTC, 'cause there's no corporate integrity between -- in 0205 1 Scientology -- got ahold of the Texas judgment against the 2 estate and tried to domesticate that. And that's pending 3 before Judge Baird. 4 In the process, he went immediately to the Middle 5 District Court here in Tampa to get writs of garnishment 6 against my personal bank accounts, my brother's personal 7 bank accounts -- even though we're not on that judgment; 8 that's against the estate -- my law firm's bank accounts; 9 Mr. Lirot's bank accounts, and proceeded to set an emergency 10 hearing with Judge Jenkins, the magistrate in Tampa. 11 And we had to do our research, memorandums of law. 12 We went in there and we showed -- handed Mr. Pope 13 a statute -- federal statute, I believe it's 28 U.S.C. 14 section 1963, which says that a federal judgment outside of 15 the jurisdiction, which would be a Texas judgment, is not a 16 final judgment if there's an appeal pending -- which there 17 is an appeal pending -- and therefore you can't proceed the 18 way Mr. Pope was proceeding. 19 And Judge Jenkins admonished Mr. Pope, first by 20 saying, "Mr. Pope, I know who you are. I know your 21 reputation. And I can't believe you came into this court 22 with this type of motion, knowing that section 1963 exists." 23 And Mr. Pope said, "Judge, I just found out -- 24 when Mr. Dandar handed me the law, it struck me like 25 lightning out of the blue." That's his language. 0206 1 And Judge Jenkins went on to admonish Mr. Pope on 2 how frivolous his motions were. 3 And they used Mr. Minton's affidavits in this case 4 to use in federal court to try to say that we were holding 5 the estate money. And we followed up by using Mr. Minton's 6 truthful deposition testimony, taken three times in this 7 case, to show the court that there was a drastic change in 8 Mr. Minton's testimony. And we alleged that our belief at 9 that time, which is our belief now, that Mr. Minton had been 10 in some way coerced, extortion, under Florida law, federal 11 law, to change his testimony and lie about us the way he's 12 lying about us. 13 And that's how all of that came before the 14 magistrate who dismissed Mr. Pope's actions. And because he 15 withdrew -- after he found out he was totally wrong on the 16 law, he withdrew his writs of garnishment. The court then 17 found that our motion for sanctions, because of his 18 frivolous action, would be moot. 19 Q Now, that was all interesting, but that wasn't 20 what I was asking about. 21 A Well, I think it was, but -- 22 Q No. 23 What -- what I said was, do you recall, in a 24 proceeding completely unrelated to the Church of 25 Scientology, using allegations of blackmail and extortion 0207 1 against the church, about the church, to get Magistrate 2 Jenkins to protect you from having to reveal financial 3 information in a rule 11 proceeding that you had lost, in 4 the case of Baker versus Alderman. Do you remember that? 5 A No. I remember Baker versus Alderman, but I don't 6 know what in the world you're talking about. 7 Q All right. Well, do you remember that -- that -- 8 A Nor do I see how Baker has anything to do with 9 this case. 10 Q Well, I didn't either until I read the transcript. 11 So let me give you a copy of the transcript. 12 THE COURT: Well, why do I care? What does it 13 have to do with -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I'll read -- I'll -- I'll 15 hand it up, your Honor. 16 It has to do with Mr. Dandar making allegations 17 about extortion and blackmail -- 18 THE COURT: So what? 19 MR. WEINBERG: -- against the church. 20 THE COURT: I mean, that's what he's done in 21 this court. That's what this hearing is all about. 22 So he did it in some other court. 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, but this is allegations that 24 he made back in April of '99. The words just flow 25 off his mouth about the Church of Scientology. 0208 1 THE WITNESS: I don't get it, but -- 2 THE COURT: I don't get it either. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor -- 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q What you said -- 6 A Well, show it to me. 7 Q All right. 8 A I mean, I don't know what you're talking about. 9 THE COURT: Was this another attempt, by the 10 way, of the Church of Scientology to find out your 11 financial information? 12 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Well, that is just -- 14 THE COURT: I have told you all -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: This is not true. 16 THE COURT: -- and told you -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, this is a 18 proceeding -- there is a rule 11 case -- 19 THE COURT: Wait a minute. I'm talking -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 21 THE COURT: -- about the proceeding that he 22 just told me about, that I didn't even know about. 23 MR. WEINBERG: What -- 24 THE COURT: Were you over trying to garnish -- 25 are you trying to garnish his personal -- 0209 1 MR. WEINBERG: Remember -- 2 THE COURT: -- accounts -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: -- he -- 4 THE COURT: -- to find out once again how much 5 money he's got left? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Remember, he complained about 7 that a month ago. That was when you -- when you 8 said what you said a month ago. He's talking -- 9 he -- this is old history. 10 No. 11 THE COURT: Sounds to me like new history. 12 MR. WEINBERG: No. 13 THE COURT: Because that was what he showed me 14 then, was a document you had filed in front of Judge 15 Greer in Clearwater, to try to get this information 16 that the Second District said you couldn't get. Now 17 this is something that's filed in the Middle 18 District of Florida. 19 MR. WEINBERG: No. That's -- 20 THE COURT: Ms. Jenkins is a federal magistrate 21 judge. That's exactly right. 22 How many times do I have to tell you all, the 23 Second District has said this is unfair and it 24 shouldn't be done. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, I don't know -- I 0210 1 suppose -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the questions that are 3 being proposed to him now are about a proceeding 4 that was long ago, before the Second District Court 5 opinion. 6 THE COURT: Understand that. That's very nice. 7 I'm talking -- 8 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 9 THE COURT: -- were you, the church, through 10 some other lawyer, obviously, because I know you all 11 wouldn't do this -- was there another church lawyer 12 trying to get to Mr. Dandar's accounts? 13 MR. FUGATE: There was another church lawyer, 14 by the name of Wally Pope, who was trying to get the 15 judgments protected. In fact, the pleading that 16 your Honor just spoke of was a pleading that 17 Mr. Dandar brought to the court's attention. I 18 think, before he did, I told you -- if you'll bear 19 with me a moment -- that it was a request that the 20 information be provided, mindful of the Second 21 District order, in camera to Judge Greer, only to 22 preserve the record. Mr. Pope can indicate that to 23 you. And that was the issue in both of those 24 situations, was to get the money -- to get the -- 25 the information preserved to protect the judgments. 0211 1 And that's what it was for. 2 I've talked to Mr. Pope about it. He believes 3 that he did the right thing in front of Judge Greer. 4 And still -- 5 THE COURT: I'm sure he believes that he did 6 the right thing in front of Judge Jenkins also, but 7 apparently Judge Jenkins felt to the contrary. 8 That appears to me to be another attempt to get 9 to Mr. Dandar's finances. So move on. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Pope will be here -- 11 THE COURT: I'm going to tell you again -- and 12 I wish you would pass this on to your other lawyers. 13 As I said, and I will say it again, I do not 14 know whether you all are telling these other 15 magistrate judges and other judges, and I don't know 16 if they care -- and that's the reason why I did this 17 order -- I very much am concerned about the 18 allegations that apparently the Second District is 19 trying to protect, which are this, and it's this and 20 it's this simply: 21 The Second District says that it appears to 22 them the church is trying to run him out of money so 23 he can't pursue his lawsuit. And I told you all 24 that I cared about that, and therefore I was going 25 to protect that. And therefore, I would ask you to 0212 1 ask your other lawyers that, at the very least, it 2 seems to me that if there's going to be some efforts 3 to be brought, that these other judges be advised of 4 this -- other judges be advised of this order to see 5 if they care. They say they don't care, I can't 6 make them care. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I hesitate to speak 8 'cause I'm not sure I know all -- 9 THE COURT: Well, then, don't. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: But let me -- 11 THE COURT: Then don't. Because this is just 12 another request -- 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, it's not -- 14 THE COURT: -- to please do what I've asked. 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: But your Honor, there is a 16 judgment against Mr. Dandar that RTC has. It's not 17 binding -- 18 THE COURT: It's on appeal, isn't it? 19 MR. FUGATE: No, it's not. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's not bonded. And as far as 21 I know -- 22 THE WITNESS: Oh -- 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- it's enforceable. 24 THE WITNESS: -- you don't know what you're 25 talking about. 0213 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, this did come up in 2 this courtroom. Your Honor said to Mr. Dandar -- 3 "Mr. Dandar, pay the judgment or they're going to 4 try to enforce it." 5 As far as I know, what this is about is an 6 attempt to enforce a judgment. Whether there are 7 legal defenses to the enforcement or not, I don't 8 know. That's what I'm saying I don't know about. 9 THE COURT: Is the case up on appeal, 10 Mr. Dandar? 11 THE WITNESS: It's all on appeal. 12 But this action in front of Judge Jenkins was 13 RTC's judgment against the estate only. There's a 14 judgment against my brother and I, 'cause they 15 convinced the federal judge that we're vexatious 16 litigators, defending our client in Texas. And we 17 bonded that, and that's on -- there is a cash bond 18 sitting in the registry of the clerk's office in the 19 Eastern District of Texas. 20 So they're not entitled to any discovery. 21 But this particular matter that Mr. Weinberg 22 brought up was on RTC versus the estate, and trying 23 to get my bank accounts and Mr. Lirot's bank 24 accounts. 25 MR. FUGATE: Judge, that is -- 0214 1 MR. WEINBERG: That's not -- 2 MR. FUGATE: That's -- 3 THE COURT: Well, then, you don't know -- 4 Were you the lawyer in the case? 5 MR. FUGATE: In the -- 6 No. As a matter of fact, we were not involved 7 in the case. This is a rule 11 proceeding against 8 Mr. Dandar conducted by other counsel. What 9 Mr. Weinberg has is a transcript of that. 10 The question that you asked me about was the 11 pleading that came before your Honor. And what I'm 12 telling you is that was requesting an in camera 13 submittal not to the church, not to anybody but 14 to -- to Judge Greer, to preserve it, to allow the 15 collection of a judgment if and when that became 16 appropriate. That's all it is. 17 THE COURT: Do you understand what the 18 allegations that have been made here, that an in 19 camera, sealed document in a court file, the 20 allegations are, would be nothing to the Church of 21 Scientology obtaining the information. I am not 22 suggesting there's any truth to that. Those are the 23 allegations that have been made by this side over 24 here. 25 MR. FUGATE: I understand. 0215 1 THE COURT: So you can understand why they 2 would not be real keen about a sealed, in camera -- 3 whatever it is. 4 MR. FUGATE: Well, you can understand why we're 5 not real keen about him saying, "This is a personal 6 business loan to me," but then using the court by 7 filing pleadings saying that it's really the 8 estate's money and they're trying get at the 9 estate's money to run the estate out, then he tells 10 you something totally different. 11 THE COURT: I understand, Counselor, that he 12 said this is what you have admitted, and therefore 13 you should be not allowed to take that position, and 14 then do something different. That has nothing to do 15 with what his admissions are. 16 I understand the allegations in this case very 17 well. 18 I know what I've said. I've told you all, and 19 I've told him, that if he's got a personal judgment 20 out there and he doesn't pay it, you would certainly 21 be entitled to pursue it, and I couldn't help it. 22 He tells me now he's bonded that judgment. 23 That should be the end of the Church of Scientology, 24 it seems to me, in good faith, and based on the 25 Second DCA's opinions, if they care about what I 0216 1 think -- that should be the end of them trying to 2 get the information on how much money Mr. Dandar has 3 left, unless what the Second District has said is 4 correct, and that is, you're trying to run him out 5 of money so he can't pursue the estate's claim. 6 I've said it before, I'm going to say it again. 7 That's what the Second District said. I've asked 8 you to stay away from it. 9 Continue. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 11 THE COURT: Because I'm trying to preserve the 12 integrity of what the Second District has said three 13 times now. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Let me hand this up to you, your 15 Honor. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object to this 17 transcript from 1999. Totally unrelated to anything 18 else to do with this case. 19 THE COURT: Well, let me see it. 20 MR. WEINBERG: There's the transcript. And 21 I've tabbed page 18. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. WEINBERG: If you start on 17 at the 24 bottom, you'll see what he's talking about. Line 25 23. 0217 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I'll be glad to talk about 2 this. 3 THE COURT: What is it you're trying to get me 4 to read? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I want you to read the bottom of 6 page 17, where he's making an argument about the 7 church -- 8 And this is a completely unrelated proceeding. 9 Line 17. 10 THE COURT: He says, "I'm currently involved in 11 litigation against the Church of Scientology. They 12 follow me wherever I go." 13 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 14 THE COURT: "I don't know if they're in this 15 courtroom or not. They dig back in all my past, 16 starting from when I was born through college, 17 through my law career." 18 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 19 THE COURT: "They have contacted every client I 20 have ever had, posing as detectives investigating 21 me." 22 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 23 THE COURT: Is this what you want me to read? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 25 And then he says, "They have newspapers around 0218 1 the country, here locally, they would like -- they 2 have already said this in public in the St. Pete 3 Times -- nothing better than to find something on me 4 that they can embarrass me with, humiliate me with, 5 or extort or blackmail me." Period. 6 And all I was going to ask him is, is that -- 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q Those words, extort and blackmail, in relation to 9 the Church of Scientology, came out of your mouth in a 10 completely unrelated proceeding, a rule 11 against you, 11 where some other third party was trying to collect on a 12 hundred-thousand-dollar judgment that had been entered by 13 Judge Kovakevich, and affirmed by the 11th Circuit -- 14 You made that -- that argument to Judge Jenkins in 15 April of 1999, correct? 16 A I made more than that. I talked about -- 17 THE COURT: Yeah. 18 A -- the -- 19 THE COURT: I think you're going to read now 20 into the record the rest of it. "That's why, 21 without putting it in writing --" 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'll put it in the record. I 23 mean, I'll just mark -- 24 THE COURT: No. We're going to put out this 25 record. 0219 1 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. You want me to read it? 2 THE COURT: "That's why, without putting it in 3 writing, I requested this whole proceeding to be in 4 camera; my financial affidavits to be in camera. 5 Because they would like nothing better than to put 6 this on the front page of the Tampa Tribune, the St. 7 Pete Times, to further humiliate me. 8 "In this case, these sanctions -- and I will do 9 this, I guess, at the hearing, maybe -- 10 "But this has been a nightmare, the biggest 11 humiliation, embarrassment of my entire life. I 12 would ask the court to permit this proceeding and 13 all my financial information be closed under a 14 confidentiality order. They can come into my law 15 office and go through all my books if they want to 16 spend their time. 17 "I only have one thing in my whole life that's 18 in my name only, and that's the stock with my 19 brother in our law firm. Anything else, which is 20 just a house, is owned by my wife and I as tenants 21 by the entirety. Unlike maybe some other personal 22 injury lawyers that have apartments and condos. I 23 don't have anything. 24 "And I -- if I could just get this 25 confidentiality order, I could then -- 0220 1 "As you know, I have blanks, as you permitted 2 me to do, on my income." 3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 4 THE COURT: That's the whole answer to whatever 5 was going on. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q And when you say it's a nightmare, you weren't 9 talking about the church; you were talking about the rule 11 10 sanction that had been leveled against you by Judge 11 Kovakevich, correct? 12 A Well, I settled that judgment and -- 13 Q Just -- could you just answer -- 14 A I am, if you just quit interrupting me, 15 Mr. Weinberg. 16 Q Well -- 17 A It's not a short answer. 18 Q Well, was -- when you said -- 19 THE COURT: Answer the question, then you may 20 explain it. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q When you say nightmare, you were talking about the 23 rule 11 sanction issued against you by Judge Kovakevich. 24 A That's correct. I had filed a lawsuit on a matter 25 that I was just getting into, I thought, and gotten out of 0221 1 after this case, an area of law. And the Rooker-Feldman 2 doctrine is the federal doctrine that says if you're already 3 in state court, you can't go to federal court and litigate 4 the same thing. 5 We're going to be using that successfully, by the 6 way, against RTC in Texas. 7 But we settled that shortly after this. And -- 8 for a fraction of what they wanted. 9 And I wanted confidentiality because of the way 10 that my clients were being harassed by people posing as 11 detectives, telling them I was involved in illegal drugs and 12 other criminal activity. So I wanted my financial 13 information kept confidential. 14 Q Now, did you appeal Judge Kovakevich's order to 15 the -- to the 11th Circuit? 16 MR. WEINBERG: And that is our Defense Exhibit 17 193, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. WEINBERG: It's the 11th Circuit opinion. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q And in that -- in that opinion, the 11th Circuit 22 says, quote, As to the award under rule 11, the district 23 court found that, quote, after a reasonable inquiry, 24 plaintiff should have believed that the pleadings he filed 25 were not well-grounded in facts and law, end quote. 0222 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And my question to you is -- 3 A And~-- 4 Q -- you -- you learned this -- 5 This dates -- this case dates back to what, the 6 late '80s and early '90s? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, the -- relevance objection. 8 I -- I don't know what facts of any similar nature 9 of that case would have -- 10 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain the 11 objection -- 12 MR. LIROT: -- on any of this -- 13 THE COURT: -- on relevance except to the 14 extent that Mr. Dandar said that the church would 15 engage in blackmail and extortion. That was before 16 they alleged it in this case. That's relevant. The 17 rest of it's -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, we -- 19 THE COURT: -- irrelevant. 20 MR. WEINBERG: We've already submitted a brief 21 as to the relevance of prior rule 11 sanctions as 22 one of the factors given in the case -- the Kozal 23 (phonetic) case -- as one of the factors to consider 24 in determining what the appropriate sanction is with 25 a similar -- with -- with a sanction now. 0223 1 So -- so one of the -- 2 THE COURT: I haven't seen it. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we submitted it to you, I 4 think, about a month ago. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's in the original motion and 6 brief, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: It's one of the factors, one of 9 the factors to be considered, is whether the 10 attorney has been priorly sanctioned. 11 THE COURT: All right. What's a rule 11? 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Rule 11 is similar to the kind 13 of motion that's here. It's in federal court. 14 It's -- what is -- has the attorney filed a 15 complaint which is not well-grounded in fact or law, 16 that -- some of those cases that we cited to you, 17 where the courts have sanctioned attorneys, and 18 authorities -- 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- for filing cases based 21 merely on speculation or on the hope that something 22 might turn up in discovery. 23 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, that has nothing to do 24 with the Rooker-Feldman doctrine. So my objection 25 stands. 0224 1 THE WITNESS: That's not what -- 2 THE COURT: Counsel -- 3 THE WITNESS: All right. 4 THE COURT: You're a witness on the witness 5 stand. 6 THE WITNESS: I keep forgetting. I'm sorry. 7 THE COURT: The objection's sustained. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'll go ahead. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Did you contact Therese Minton before Bob Minton 11 testified in front of Judge Baird on April 19th? 12 A No. I contacted her after he testified, because I 13 thought there was something terribly wrong with him, and I 14 was concerned for his well-being. 15 Q Were you trying to use Mrs. Minton to put pressure 16 on Mr. Minton not to testify against you? 17 A No. I was concerned for the health of Mr. Minton. 18 I thought he was going to die because of the way he was 19 talking to me about blood and death. I wanted to make sure 20 that she and her daughters were okay, and to talk about 21 Mr. Minton lying through his teeth about me -- 22 You know, there's something really bad. 23 Q Did you actually talk to her or just leave her a 24 message? 25 A No. I just left a phone message saying, "I'm 0225 1 concerned about Bob. Please give me a call." 2 Q Concerned about Bob. 3 And then you went on into some more detail in the 4 message? 5 A I don't think so. 6 Q All right. Now, you met with Jesse Prince on 7 April 14th, 2002 in the International Mall. 8 A Yes. 9 Q Okay. And you knew, as a result of that meeting, 10 that -- at least as a result of that meeting, maybe as a 11 result of prior conversations -- you knew that Mr. Prince 12 was going to go to law enforcement -- 13 A I -- 14 Q -- with regard to Mr. Minton. 15 A I urged him to go to law enforcement. 16 Q And you also told him that you were going to talk 17 to law enforcement as well to try and save Bob and get him 18 away from Scientology? 19 A That's right. 20 Q And that's what Mr. Prince put in his affidavit. 21 Do you remember that? 22 A I don't remember that, but that's the truth. 23 Q And did you contact law enforcement? 24 A I don't want to answer that question. 25 THE COURT: Yes, you will. Answer the 0226 1 question. 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 A Yes, I did. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q And who did you contact? 6 THE COURT: He doesn't need to go any further 7 than that. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q Well, what agency? 10 A No. 11 THE WITNESS: I'd ask you not to force me to 12 answer that, Judge. Please don't let me answer that 13 question. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Well, was it your intention -- I'll ask it a 16 different way. 17 Was it your intention to try to put pressure on 18 Mr. Minton to not testify against you? Was that what you 19 were trying to accomplish? 20 A No. What I was trying to accomplish is to get the 21 persons responsible for this extortion prosecuted and 22 convicted and put in jail for what they did. 23 Q Well, did you discuss with Mr. Prince that this 24 was criminal RICO, like Mr. Prince testified? 25 A Yes. 0227 1 Q And did you give him that idea? 2 A I didn't give him anything. I expressed my 3 opinion that it's extortion and part of RICO, since it's 4 multistate. 5 Q And did you -- and did you -- 6 THE COURT: What RICO are you talking about, 7 Counselor? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Criminal -- state criminal 9 RICO -- 10 Well, I don't know. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q Let's ask you. 13 Were you talking about federal RICO or state RICO? 14 THE COURT: Are you talking -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: Criminal. 16 THE COURT: I'm very confused. 17 Are we talking about a RICO allegation made by 18 the estate of Lisa McPherson against the church or 19 are we speaking of the RICO allegation that was 20 brought up to Mr. Minton by the church? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Totally different allegation. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. WEINBERG: We're talking about -- 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q You were talking about -- 0228 1 THE COURT: Is that in his affidavit, 2 Mr. Prince's affidavit? 3 MR. WEINBERG: No, but that's what he testified 4 to in court the other day. 5 THE COURT: Oh. I must have missed it. 6 MR. WEINBERG: That he and Agent Strope talked 7 about criminal RICO -- 8 I've got the transcript, I can review it with 9 you. 10 THE COURT: No. I'm sure if it's there, it's 11 there. I just -- it's an awful lot that's been 12 said. I don't remember everything. 13 MR. WEINBERG: And that's what -- I want to get 14 the RICO straight here. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q The RICO you're talking -- you were talking to 17 Mr. Prince about was some criminal charge, RICO charge, 18 against the church and Mr. Minton, right? 19 A That's partially correct. We talked about the 20 RICO threats Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder made in New York City 21 on March the 28th. We talked about the RICO suit that 22 Mr. Minton showed Mr. Prince here in Florida, that he got 23 from Mr. Rosen. And then I talked about with Mr. Prince 24 what they were doing to Bob Minton was extortion and 25 possibly a RICO. 0229 1 Q What the church was doing to Bob Minton. 2 A Oh, absolutely. 3 Q Right. 4 And you urged -- urged Mr. Prince to go to the -- 5 to law enforcement, the FDLE, to talk about bringing 6 criminal RICO charges against the Church of Scientology and 7 Bob Minton, right? 8 A I urged Mr. Prince that he should contact law 9 enforcement, since he was a witness, and let them know what 10 he knows. 11 Q Well, you were trying to get Mr. Minton charged 12 criminally so that he couldn't testify against you, weren't 13 you? 14 A No. Mr. Minton is a victim just as I am a victim. 15 Q You were trying to get the church charged 16 criminally. 17 A If they committed a crime, that's right. It's my 18 duty. 19 THE COURT: And it was your belief at that time 20 that they were committing a crime. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. And it's more of my belief 22 now, with those notes from Ms. Yingling. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q Well, you were aware that Mr. Prince -- he said on 25 the stand that he was a friend or had a good relationship 0230 1 with -- with Agent Strope from the FDLE. 2 A Well, I -- 3 Q You knew that? 4 A I heard that. I don't -- I don't know that. 5 Q And -- and did -- 6 And you don't believe, by the way, that Agent 7 Strope told Mr. Prince, as he testified, that he should 8 deliver Agent Strope's message to Mr. Minton, that if he 9 testified, he would in effect be charged with crimes. 10 A I believe that. I've never once heard a lie come 11 out of the mouth of Jesse Prince. 12 Q And you think that's appropriate for -- for law 13 enforcement to be sending messages -- 14 THE COURT: That's irrelevant. What -- what 15 law enforcement ought to be doing or not, whether -- 16 what this witness says -- I could care less. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Did you tell Mr. Prince to threaten Mr. Minton 19 with criminal charges if he continued to testify against 20 you? 21 A No. 22 Q Did you urge Mr. Prince to go talk to Mr. Minton 23 and Ms. Brooks about having talked to -- gone to law 24 enforcement? 25 A No. We had a lot of conversations but I don't 0231 1 believe that was ever said. 2 Q And you don't think that by Mr. Prince going to 3 Mr. Minton, who was a witness in proceedings that were going 4 on, and threatening him with criminal prosecution -- you 5 don't think that that's tampering with a witness. 6 MR. LIROT: Objection. That assumes facts 7 totally not in evidence. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Now, you have said, claimed, that the Church of 11 Scientology was trying, through this proceeding, to remove 12 you from the lawsuit to stop the trial. 13 A That's true. 14 Q But -- 15 With this motion, right? 16 A That's true. I still believe it. 17 Q All right. 18 A And it is the truth. 19 Q All right. But since this case has been going on, 20 since the beginning of 1997, you, Ken Dandar, have filed bar 21 complaints against Lee Fugate, my associate, Laura Vaughan, 22 Rick Moxon, Wally Pope, Monique Yingling, Sandy Rosen, Eric 23 Lieberman, me and Michael Hertzberg, correct? 24 MR. LIROT: Objection. Relevance. 25 THE COURT: Overruled. 0232 1 But I do think that that would be confidential, 2 and I think that he's going to have to get some 3 order from me to require him to answer that. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Well, remember, Mr. Pope had -- 5 I mean -- 6 Well -- 7 THE COURT: Yeah. There's a letter that 8 Mr. Pope put on my desk, sent down here. For some 9 reason. He wanted me to know that Mr. -- I never 10 have really quite understood that. I mean, why 11 Mr. Pope sent me a letter. A judge in another 12 case -- that -- that he had filed a lawsuit -- or he 13 filed a grievance against him. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I think all of us, all of 15 the lawyers here, who have been grieved by 16 Mr. Dandar, want you to know that. And we want to 17 make the record very clear that -- 18 THE COURT: Well, you can waive your -- you can 19 waive -- you can say that you're willing to waive 20 it. 21 Bar grievances are confidential. So you can 22 waive it for yourself. You can waive -- Mr. Fugate 23 can waive it for himself. Mr. Hertzberg isn't here, 24 but he can certainly waive it. Ms. Yingling waive 25 it. But I can't let you waive it for these other 0233 1 people. And I don't think he can waive the 2 confidentiality without getting himself in trouble 3 with the bar unless I order him to answer. And I'm 4 not going to order him to answer without a waiver. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let's put it a different 6 way. 7 THE WITNESS: No -- I'm not in trouble with the 8 bar now, if that's what you're -- 9 THE COURT: No, no. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 THE COURT: I'm saying you're not supposed to 12 disclose bar complaints. They're confidential until 13 there's a finding of probable cause. 14 Aren't they? I don't know. 15 MR. FUGATE: No. 16 THE COURT: I haven't been a lawyer in a long 17 time. 18 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. 19 As a matter of fact, I thought so. And when 20 this came up and I spoke with Mr. Pope and he asked 21 me to -- I'm the one that actually brought the 22 letter down and gave it to your Honor. He had 23 checked with the bar and determined that -- that you 24 can provide those. 25 The proceedings themselves, once they begin, I 0234 1 think, are -- are -- if it's a committee, is not 2 public. But if there's a -- actually a hearing, 3 those are public. 4 He checked with the bar on that. And I think 5 the reason for it is there are accusations that are 6 made against the lawyers, where he followed the 7 rules of professional conduct, called the bar, and 8 they said, "Send the transcript. You have an 9 obligation to do it." And from that, there is now 10 yet another bar complaint filed -- or a letter from 11 Mr. Dandar that basically accuses all of the 12 lawyers, inclusive of the ones named by Mr. -- 13 THE COURT: An awful lot of talk here. 14 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 15 THE COURT: I'm making this comment. I think a 16 bar complaint is confidential until some point in 17 time. If it's not, it certainly ought to be. If 18 you all want to waive your confidentiality, he can 19 answer that question. 20 Suffice it to say that I'm very aware both 21 sides have filed bar complaints against the other. 22 Very simple. So for whatever that's worth, I'm 23 aware of that. You all have made it -- 24 MR. FUGATE: All right. 25 THE COURT: Very well known in these 0235 1 proceedings. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q The answer to my question is yes? 4 THE COURT: I don't want him to answer that 5 unless I'm confident that he -- you have to have an 6 order from me to answer that if they're 7 confidential, if that information is confidential. 8 And I'm not prepared to give it unless these people 9 waive their confidentiality. 10 Did you file a complaint -- 11 I take it you're willing to waive it? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 13 THE COURT: Did you file a complaint against 14 Mr. Weinberg? 15 THE WITNESS: I may have included him in a 16 letter that I responded to Mr. Pope's complaint 17 against me, for calling me a perjurer. Then I 18 brought up the -- my allegation or my belief of 19 extortion that caused Mr. Minton to change. And I 20 said that, "These -- all these attorneys are -- are 21 all behind pursuing me with Mr. Minton's new 22 testimony, and I think the bar should investigate 23 this whole matter --" 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 THE WITNESS: "-- because there's something 0236 1 wrong." 2 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate, you waive 3 confidentiality? 4 MR. FUGATE: Absolutely. 5 THE COURT: You filed a complaint against 6 Mr. Fugate? 7 THE WITNESS: A long time ago. 8 Yes. 9 THE COURT: Yes? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. Yes. 11 THE COURT: Have you had a complaint -- 12 You want to waive confidentiality? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Have you filed -- had a complaint 15 filed against you by the other side? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Many. Many, many. Many. 17 THE COURT: All right. And that's all that can 18 waive. 19 In other words -- 20 Oh, Mr. Moxon, you want to waive? 21 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon waives. 23 You filed a complaint against Mr. Moxon. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 0237 1 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Lieberman. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman? 3 Have you filed a complaint -- 4 You want to waive? 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Sure. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't remember filing a 7 complaint against -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me just read what you 9 said. One sentence -- 10 THE COURT: I don't want you to read stuff if 11 it involves any other lawyers -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: It doesn't have -- 13 THE COURT: -- not part of this proceeding. 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- a name. It's what he just 15 staid. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q "I demand that the bar take a broad approach and 18 encompass all of the attorneys involved in litigating 19 against the estate of Lisa McPherson." 20 I mean that was in this letter. That you wanted 21 the -- your complaint with regard to Mr. Pope extended to 22 all of us that are involved in this proceeding. 23 A That's what I testified just two seconds -- 24 Q So -- 25 A -- ago. 0238 1 Q So there isn't any other complaint made against 2 me; it was just this most recent one in the July letter to 3 the bar, correct? 4 A As far as I can remember as I sit here. 5 Q All right. 6 THE COURT: I would assume, Counselor, if any 7 lawyer thought another lawyer was involved in 8 extortion and blackmail, the lawyer would have an 9 obligation to turn that lawyer in to the bar. Just 10 as I would assume that if you believe that a lawyer 11 is involved in perjury and suborning perjury, you 12 would have an obligation to turn him in to the bar. 13 Therefore, both sides have made serious 14 allegations against lawyers on the other side, and 15 both sides have turned those lawyers in to the bar. 16 Which is probably the appropriate thing to do under 17 the rules, as I know them. 18 MR. WEINBERG: All right. May I talk to 19 Mr. Fugate for one second? 20 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, while we're waiting 21 here a minute, did you ever find out what 22 Mr. Dandar's exhibit was, that would have the 23 affidavit of Ms. Sandra Anderson? 24 THE CLERK: Yes. That was Number 187. 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 0239 1 THE CLERK: Plaintiff's 187. 2 THE COURT: So this would be -- what did we 3 decide -- 187-B? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 MR. WEINBERG: It seems to me that that would 6 make sense -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. WEINBERG: -- so -- 9 THE COURT: This would be 187-B. This is the 10 notice of filing of the deposition of Sandra 11 Anderson. If you want to put that along with 187. 12 Did you also find the document that I indicated 13 would now be in evidence, that was not in evidence? 14 THE CLERK: Yes. On the -- 15 THE COURT: Was a letter? 16 THE CLERK: Letter from Miscavige to McCabe. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 THE CLERK: Yes, I did. 19 THE COURT: Number? 20 THE CLERK: Plaintiff's Number 128. 21 THE COURT: For the record, then, Number 128 is 22 now in evidence. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to have -- 24 THE COURT: I think that's all the -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Can I have this marked? 0240 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 THE CLERK: 273. 3 MR. WEINBERG: This would be 273. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q This would be 273. 7 Now, is that the -- is 273 the letter dated 8 July 22nd, 2002 that you recently wrote to the bar in 9 response to Mr. Pope's letter of June 19th, 2002? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And if you go to page 5 of the letter, the third 12 paragraph -- 13 THE COURT: You seem to insist on wanting to 14 violate what I presume is somebody else's right to 15 confidentiality that a complaint has been made 16 against them. 17 I can't let this in evidence. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, if you mean Mr. Pope, I -- 20 THE COURT: I mean Mr. Pope, but I mean 21 Ms. Yingling, and I mean others that are in here -- 22 I'm not going to say more -- if their names have 23 been mentioned -- that are mentioned by name that 24 have some right to confidentiality about a grievance 25 being filed against them. 0241 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me -- I think I can 2 deal with that without causing a problem for -- in 3 the area that you're concerned -- 4 THE COURT: Either that, or call them on the 5 telephone to see if they're willing to waive the 6 confidentiality, then I'll have no problem with it. 7 All of them except the church, I take it. 8 MR. FUGATE: Absolutely, Judge. 9 And I can tell you that Mr. Pope is the person 10 that gave me the copy, and he has already authorized 11 that -- he is waiving -- if there is 12 confidentiality, which he doesn't believe, he's 13 waiving it, and -- 14 THE COURT: Well, I'm afraid -- I don't know 15 the answer. There used to be lawyers got protected 16 against -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: Well, things changed because 18 there was concern in the public -- and I'm not an 19 expert on this -- 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. WEINBERG: -- but there was concern in the 22 public the bar was being too secretive about matters 23 like this. 24 THE COURT: Well, you hold this till after 25 lunch, and in the meantime, you call Ms. Yingling -- 0242 1 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 2 THE COURT: And I'm not going to say any more 3 lawyers on the record. There are other lawyers 4 mentioned on the record (sic). Call them and see if 5 they have a problem with this being -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: I will. 7 THE COURT: -- discussed in open court. If 8 they have any confidentiality, if they want to waive 9 it, then I have no problems. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 11 And I really don't have any more lawyers' names 12 to talk about. I just had questions about some of 13 the things that Mr. Dandar said in this letter that 14 relate to this proceeding. 15 If you'll read it you'll see -- 16 THE COURT: You may want to introduce it, and 17 if you do, I've got a problem with it -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 19 THE COURT: -- with these named people -- 20 It's a very simple thing. Just -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: No -- 22 THE COURT: -- see if they have -- 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have -- yeah, we'll call 24 Ms. Yingling because I think she may be the -- 25 THE COURT: There's another lawyer in there and 0243 1 I want them all called. Any lawyer that's mentioned 2 by name in here that may have a right of 3 confidentiality, I want to make sure they'll waive 4 it. 5 MR. WEINBERG: All right. That would be Sandy 6 Rosen -- 7 THE COURT: Well, now that's out on the record. 8 I was trying to save him -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: I'm a moron. 10 THE COURT: -- if he wanted to be saved -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not -- 12 THE COURT: -- so -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm a moron. 14 THE COURT: Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 16 THE COURT: That was -- that was not good. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That was not good. 18 All right. I didn't do that -- 19 Shall we -- you want us to break now? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. WEINBERG: We'll make these calls? 22 THE COURT: I do. It's five minutes to 11 23 (sic). Be a good time to break. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 25 THE COURT: Make those calls, see if they have 0244 1 any problem. 2 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Okay. 3 THE COURT: And if they don't -- 4 Let me just make sure -- see if there's anybody 5 else. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I won't name the other names, 7 but -- 8 THE COURT: Don't name them. 9 MR. WEINBERG: -- I think that may be the only 10 one. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate mentioned one that he 12 obviously said he could waive it for, because he 13 made a statement about it, so I'll assume that that 14 takes care of that one. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 16 THE COURT: Anyway, I don't need to read it 17 right now. You all just look through here, see if 18 there's lawyers named. 19 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 20 THE COURT: You don't have a problem with it, 21 Mr. Dandar, right? 22 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 23 THE COURT: All right. And -- so both sides 24 just look and see if there's lawyers' names are 25 mentioned. 0245 1 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 2 THE COURT: You mean there's not -- you mean 3 any old complaint that's filed against a lawyer now 4 is just public record as soon as it's filed? 5 MR. WEINBERG: I think -- well -- 6 THE COURT: We're off the record now. We're 7 done. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Off the record. 9 THE COURT: We're off the record. 10 (A discussion was held off the record.) 11 THE COURT: 1:15. 12 (A recess was taken at 12:00 p.m.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 0246 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 17th day of July, 13 2002. 14 15 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25