247 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 3 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Kennan G. Dandar. 17 DATE: July 17, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 248 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 MR. ANTHONY BATTAGLIA 21 MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A. 22 980 Tyrone Boulevard St. Petersburg, Florida 33710 23 Counsel for Robert Minton. 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 249 1 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar, you may 2 return. 3 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I had to get Mr. Fugate. He 5 wanted to address a few things. 6 MR. FUGATE: The first thing you asked me to 7 address, would I contact the lawyers in the July 2nd 8 letter from Mr. Dandar to the Bar. And I have done 9 that. I have asked Mr. Rosen, I have asked 10 Ms. Yingling and, of course, everybody else is here. 11 And they do not object to -- they waive their 12 confidentiality. That is number one. 13 Number two, on the issue that came up 14 regarding -- two things that came up regarding the 15 comments -- or questions you posed to me about not 16 following or not -- trying to get around your order 17 or the Second District Court of Appeals' order. 18 Mr. Pope basically filed the proceeding that 19 you heard about from Mr. Dandar in front of Judge 20 Jenkins before you entered your order on May 27 and 21 filed it, basically to go over -- for the purpose of 22 recording and certifying the judgments. And I will 23 bring him in and address that today in rebuttal. 24 And, thirdly, the order -- the motion that you 25 were asking me about is the one that he filed. And Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 250 1 he will address that and tell you that there was an 2 accounting ordered. He asked it be expedited, was 3 mindful of your order and the Second District -- the 4 2d DCA order and said basically I want this in 5 camera so it is done to preserve the record but I 6 don't want to interfere with your order or the 7 Second District order. I want to clear that up. 8 Lastly, Mr. Dandar asked not to have to answer 9 a question as to who he spoke to in law enforcement. 10 There is an issue I want to ask the Court to 11 reconsider on that. And it is this. When I came up 12 at the end of the day -- and I couldn't tell you now 13 which day it was -- I said, "I have got this 14 problem. I'm trying to get these two folks served." 15 And Mr. Dandar said, "Well, I spoke to Lee 16 Strope. I already talked to him," told you and I 17 that at the bench. 18 I think that must be who he's talking about. I 19 really don't care except that I want to make a 20 Freedom of Information Act request to see if there 21 are any reports for the purpose of the rebuttal. 22 I have done that with what Mr. Prince said and 23 I have rebuttal testimony to put on to your Honor -- 24 or before your Honor that relates to what Mr. Prince 25 said happened with -- with Lee Strope. And I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 251 1 think -- I think if we ask Mr. Dandar who it was he 2 talked to, and if he says it's Lee Strope, that 3 would be encompassed in the letter that I have from 4 the custodian of records. 5 And our solution for Lee Strope, since he's on 6 vacation, or at least out of the office through the 7 22nd, rather than delay the proceedings before your 8 Honor, if we're about to conclude today or tomorrow, 9 what I would propose, unless there is an objection, 10 is that we take a deposition of Mr. Strope in that 11 area, and whatever he says under oath with 12 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot present we provide to the 13 Court as an exhibit, you know, after the hearing is 14 concluded or just have permission to include it. 15 That way, you've got it, they have the right to 16 be present, but we don't delay the hearing to wait 17 for him to come back, because I have no clue, if he 18 comes back on the 22nd, whether I could serve him or 19 not. And, you know, I certainly won't ask to have 20 the Court wait until the 22nd or 23rd or 24th to 21 bring him in. 22 So those are all my areas I wanted to cover. 23 THE COURT: Okay. As far as the privilege, 24 then everybody has waived it. Mr. Dandar waived it 25 before lunch, all of the lawyers waived it. So you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 252 1 may feel free, if it is relevant, to go ahead and go 2 into this letter. 3 As to the second matter as far as Mr. Strope's 4 deposition, as to whether or not he was contacted, I 5 have no problem with him being asked that. I have 6 no problem with him submitting an affidavit, as far 7 as that is concerned, if he was or was not 8 contacted. 9 Mr. Dandar, why is it you don't want to 10 disclose what law enforcement official you 11 contacted -- officer or whatever? 12 MR. DANDAR: At their request. 13 THE COURT: At their request? 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor, I should be 16 able to -- I mean, first of all, there is no 17 privilege there, I don't believe. 18 Secondly, it -- it is absolutely relevant to 19 what is going on in this proceeding if Mr. Dandar is 20 making accusations to law enforcement or seeking 21 investigations against my client or me to law 22 enforcement. 23 We should be able to, A, find out who the 24 agency is, B, what it was that he told him or gave 25 him or submitted to him. There is no privilege as Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 253 1 to that. And he stands up here, having accused 2 David Miscavige of murder, having accused all of the 3 lawyers who are participating, in extortion and 4 blackmail, having accused the client of extortion 5 and blackmail, and he's reluctant to tell us what 6 law enforcement agency or agent he recently, while 7 this proceeding was going on -- these proceedings 8 were going on, made -- requested to do an 9 investigation, whatever? I don't know what he told 10 us. 11 THE COURT: What is the relevance to this 12 proceeding about that even? I mean, I presume the 13 only thing that makes it relevant is that you asked 14 him whether, if he had all this information 15 regarding so-called crimes, he reported it. He said 16 he did. 17 Now it seems like you want to follow it up 18 somehow or another -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I mean, was the purpose 20 to -- to put pressure on the Church to back off of 21 this proceeding? 22 THE COURT: Apparently not. I mean, the Church 23 didn't even know about it. So I'm not going to 24 require -- if he said law enforcement asked him not 25 to reveal that, to me, it is a very minimal Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 254 1 significance. I mean -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I -- 3 THE COURT: He said he contacted law 4 enforcement. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could I inquire as to what 6 he told him? 7 THE COURT: Sure. 8 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 9 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I'll sit down, but -- 10 THE COURT: This is really sort of irrelevant. 11 It's like you are trying to pursue something that 12 really -- you asked him almost like the answer 13 should have been, "No, I didn't." 14 Then it gets, like, "Oh, you thought you had 15 all this information regarding crimes and you didn't 16 even report it to the Bar? You didn't even report 17 it to law enforcement?" 18 Well, he did, he says. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I guess I would put it a 20 different way -- I would put it a different way. He 21 talks about pattern and practice. The pattern and 22 practice in this case, I think, from the beginning 23 of this case, is for Mr. Dandar to make false 24 allegations against my client, me and others. And 25 we talked about all of the incidents, whether it is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 255 1 the E-meter or the document that -- the statement 2 that supposedly ended up from his office in the 3 FDLE, and all these other allegations. 4 I mean, he talks about pattern and practice. 5 Well, here he's the one who has been making 6 allegations which -- which are false throughout this 7 proceeding, not to mention the main accusation, 8 false accusation, that David Miscavige was part -- 9 made a decision to let Lisa McPherson die. 10 That is the relevance. 11 THE COURT: That is the relevance to this 12 hearing. As far as whether he reported what he 13 perceived to be a crime to a law enforcement agency 14 would be only relevant if he made that allegation 15 and did not. He said he did. Whether they are 16 doing anything about it, who would know? 17 MR. FUGATE: Could we just get it dated then, 18 Judge? 19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to ask the questions. 20 MR. FUGATE: All right. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I'll -- 22 THE COURT: Actually, you can ask him what he 23 said in some brief summary. But it just is not 24 relevant. You have got to conclude these 25 proceedings. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 256 1 MR. WEINBERG: And I don't have very much more 2 to ask him. 3 THE COURT: Then ask it. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to. 5 THE COURT: But it's going to be real quick 6 because I already told you it has minimal, if any, 7 relevance. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Now, you have in front of you the letter of 11 July 2, 2002 that you sent to the Florida Bar, is that 12 right? 13 A Exhibit 273? 14 Q Right. 15 THE COURT: Is that the number? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Your Honor, I offer that 18 into evidence. I have just a few questions about 19 it. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Now, if you go to Page 2 of this letter, on the 23 top paragraph you say, "These notes --" referring to some 24 lawyer notes, "and Ms. Yingling's testimony provide the 25 elements to support my position that Mr. Minton is now lying Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 257 1 to the Court as part of his secret deal with Scientology to 2 make the death case go away. This is extortion." 3 That is what you said. Right? 4 A Yes. And "these notes" refers to Ms. Yingling's 5 typed notes that were introduced into evidence in this 6 hearing. 7 Q Then if you drop down a paragraph, you say, "The 8 Church of Scientology, in its fear of losing the McPherson 9 wrongful death case, has used the services of its lawyers, 10 both Monique Yingling in Washington --" 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Where are you reading? 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. The next paragraph 13 on Page 2. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q "The Church of Scientology, in its fear of losing 17 the McPherson wrongful death case, has used the services of 18 its lawyers, both Monique Yingling in Washington, D.C. and 19 Samuel Rosen in New York City, and now Mr. Pope in 20 Clearwater, to promulgate the tactic of getting rid of the 21 attorney since it cannot get rid of the case. 22 "Of course, the attorneys representing the Church 23 of Scientology Flag Service Organization before Judge 24 Schaeffer are also guilty of this same illegal and unethical 25 behavior, not disclosing the Mary Carter agreement that the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 258 1 Church of Scientology has with Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks to 2 the Court and now to the Florida Bar." 3 You made that allegation, correct? 4 A It's in black and white. Yes. 5 Q Then you go to Page 5, third paragraph -- 6 THE COURT: What is the Mary Carter agreement? 7 THE WITNESS: It's an agreement where a party 8 makes a secret deal, usually with the plaintiff and 9 one defendant, and they make a secret deal outside 10 the knowledge of the Court. The party being sued 11 makes -- making the secret deal comes in, testifies, 12 and -- testifies favorably to the other party to the 13 Mary Carter agreement. 14 And Mary Carter agreement comes from the Mary 15 Carter Paint Company case. 16 THE COURT: Mary Carter is some term of -- 17 THE WITNESS: Because of the case, 1993 Supreme 18 Court decision, that said it is illegal and 19 unethical for a lawyer to participate in such a 20 thing. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q This secret deal you are talking about is the deal 23 Mr. Minton says it isn't so and Ms. Brooks says it isn't so 24 and Ms. Yingling said it isn't so, correct, under oath, all 25 agree it is not true under oath? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 259 1 A I would not agree with that statement. 2 Q If you go to Page 5, the first sentence of the 3 third paragraph that begins, "I demand --" you said, "I 4 demand that the Bar take a broad approach and encompass all 5 of the attorneys involved in litigating against the estate 6 of Lisa McPherson." Correct? 7 A I mean, you just keep reading my letter? My 8 letter is correct. Everything I said in there. 9 Q The purpose of that statement and the one I read 10 before is to urge the Bar to investigate all of the lawyers 11 involved in this case, even though you didn't name us by 12 name. Correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Now, if you go to Page 5, the next-to-last 15 paragraph -- 16 THE COURT: Counsel, honestly -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: This is my last thing, your 18 Honor, on this letter. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q You say, "Mr. Pope individually and on behalf of 21 his client, Church of Scientology, has promulgated a charade 22 before the Florida Bar on his complaint against me, as well 23 as a charade before the courts in the three cases pending in 24 Pinellas County. This charade has caused --" 25 THE COURT: What Mr. Pope has done has zero Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 260 1 relevance to this case. 2 MR. WEINBERG: No, but this Court -- this is -- 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q You were talking about this case in front of Judge 5 Schaeffer being part of the charade? 6 A No. That is just the opposite. The wrongful 7 death case is the truth. What you are doing with Mr. Minton 8 is the charade. And "charade" is a word that the Florida 9 Supreme Court uses for Mary Carter agreements. 10 You are trying to not tell this -- you are trying 11 to not tell this Court and you didn't tell Judge Baird you 12 had this secret agreement with Mr. Minton, that he does 13 admit to, by the way, it comes out in Ms. Yingling's notes, 14 it's his deal to make this case go away to use any means 15 possible. You heard that from Nancy Many, to use any means 16 possible to get rid of this case. 17 The charade is not telling the Court about your 18 secret deal with Mr. Minton. That is the charade. And that 19 is the word the Florida Supreme Court used. 20 Q Well, you got a letter from -- from Mr. Jonas -- 21 THE COURT: That is really all I want to hear 22 about this. 23 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 24 THE COURT: Because this is just irrelevant. I 25 do want to know, though, this Florida Bar Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 261 1 2002-1139713B inquiry complaint of F.W. Pope. So I 2 presume you are responding to an allegation against 3 you. 4 THE WITNESS: Right. Mr. Pope is the one that 5 filed this. 6 THE COURT: Right. So this whole letter is in 7 response -- his defense to a complaint filed against 8 him, I gather. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Right. Then this letter is used 10 purportedly to make a complaint against Mr. Pope and 11 others, some of which are named and some are not 12 named. 13 THE WITNESS: But I have been told by the 14 Florida Bar that is not proper procedure. I have to 15 fill out the form and fill out my own complaint. So 16 right now there is no complaint pending against 17 Mr. Pope or any of the other attorneys. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q Now, when you speak of charade as far as the 20 Court, remember the other day Judge Schaeffer asked you 21 about the quotation in the -- in the -- you being quoted in 22 the recent article in the St. Pete Times where you were -- 23 where you were quoted as saying, "They are committing a 24 charade on the Court. They have Minton coming in as if he 25 were this pitiful lying witness who wanted to come clean." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 262 1 Do you remember being asked those questions? And 2 the question the Court posed to you was -- 3 THE COURT: This was some discussion, I think, 4 in court? Is that what you're talking about? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 6 THE COURT: What would that have to do with 7 anything? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, the question was whether 9 he talked to the press. And he said he had 10 testified about it. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q And my question was we've looked at the record and 13 we don't see any mention of charade in the record. 14 A What is the date of the article? 15 Q Just a few weeks ago. 16 MR. FUGATE: July 7. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q July 7? 19 A So, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. 20 Q Now, you remember -- 21 THE COURT: The suggestion is that, Counsel, 22 obviously you did talk to the press because there is 23 nothing in the record that they could have gotten 24 that quote from. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, that is true. If there is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 263 1 nothing in the record where I'm using the word 2 "charade," then, you know, the reporter was sitting 3 back there a few days, so -- she talked to everyone. 4 You know, I stand corrected if I talked to her off 5 the record. I just don't recall doing that, using 6 that word with her. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q You think what is going on here is a charade? 9 A Absolutely. It's shameful. 10 Q Now, you remember the March 30 letter, 2002 letter 11 that you sent to Mr. Minton which is Exhibit -- your Exhibit 12 76? 13 THE COURT: Could you show it to him? 14 A The blood and death letter? 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q Yes. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Madam Clerk -- could I have the 18 clerk -- could I have Plaintiff's 76? 19 THE COURT: Unless he remembers it. But if he 20 does, I don't -- 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Remember the blood on your -- 23 A Yes, there is the blood and death letter, quoting 24 Mr. Minton. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Could somebody give me a copy? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 264 1 Obviously I have the wrong exhibit number. What is 2 the exhibit number? Maybe it is Defense 76. I 3 thought it was Plaintiff's 76. 4 A I think it is defense. I couldn't find it. 5 THE COURT: Whatever the number is, this is 6 already in evidence? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. Mr. Minton talked about it 8 and Mr. Dandar talked about it. 9 BY MR. WEINBERG: 10 Q Specifically -- 11 THE COURT: There must be some rebuttal reason 12 to go back into it? 13 MR. WEINBERG: There is. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Now, you wrote this letter on March 30 to 16 Mr. Minton, after you had talked to him on both the 28th and 17 29th of March, following his two days of meetings with the 18 Church lawyers. Correct? 19 A Well, specifically after March 29th. 20 Q Now, if you go to Page 2 of the letter, the one, 21 two, three, fourth paragraph, which is the first long 22 paragraph, the last three sentences, you say, "Dismissing 23 the case because Scientology is attempting to extort and 24 blackmail you is a request I cannot nor will ever honor. 25 From what I know so far, it is my opinion that Scientology Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 265 1 and its counsel are blackmailing and extorting you. I am 2 outraged. But then I have no respect for anyone who works 3 for Scientology." 4 You said that, correct? 5 A Yes, I did. 6 Q So immediately -- 7 A Actually, I wrote that. 8 Q Immediately you were making accusations of 9 extortion and blackmail. Right? 10 A Well, it is based upon my conversation the night 11 before with Mr. Jonas, Mr. Minton's lawyer, as well as 12 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. 13 Q Now, then you were in court -- in this court on 14 April 5, 2002, a few days later, when Mr. Minton had his 15 contempt trial in front of Judge Schaeffer. Correct? You 16 were there? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Now, and at that point you had already decided 19 that what was going on in New York was blackmail and 20 extortion. Correct? 21 A Yes. But it was unsuccessful as far as I knew 22 then. 23 Q But you didn't say anything to Judge Schaeffer -- 24 I mean, you haven't been reluctant to accuse the Church and 25 its lawyers of misconduct in this case, have you? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 266 1 A Oh, I have been extremely reluctant to accuse the 2 lawyers of misconduct. But -- because the lawyers are 3 officers of the court. But I'm not reluctant to accuse the 4 Church, that has a criminal history of misconduct. 5 Q Now -- 6 A And when it is used against me, my wife, my 7 daughter, my law firm, my secretaries, over and over and 8 over again, yeah, I'm not reluctant to go after the Church 9 for that. 10 Q Now, when you were in this court on April 5, a few 11 days after you wrote that March 30 letter to Mr. Minton, you 12 didn't tell Judge Schaeffer that there was extortion and 13 blackmail going on that was -- that was being perpetrated on 14 Mr. Minton by the Church of Scientology, did you, sir? 15 A No. That would have been reckless. I mean, I 16 just had one conversation with Mr. Minton and his lawyer in 17 a separate conversation. That would have been reckless for 18 me to come into open court and accuse the Church of 19 extortion and blackmail then. But now I know a lot more. 20 Q And, of course, you hadn't gone to law enforcement 21 at that point? 22 A No. 23 THE COURT: This is really so irrelevant. 24 THE WITNESS: But it shows you, Judge, that I 25 did go to law enforcement. So now I'm being accused Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 267 1 of not going to law enforcement. 2 THE COURT: I know. If you say something, you 3 get one thing. If you don't say something, you get 4 something else. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Well, the point is you didn't think -- you said it 7 was unsuccessful. You didn't think that Bob Minton, 8 particularly after being acquitted by Judge Schaeffer on 9 the -- the April 3rd -- 10 A 5th. 11 Q Acquitted by Judge Schaeffer on April 5, and the 12 April 3rd DCA -- 2d DCA opinion, you didn't think that Bob 13 Minton would ever come forward and produce that $500,000 14 check, did you, sir? 15 A That doesn't go together. That is -- I can't make 16 sense of that. 17 MR. LIROT: That is asking for speculation. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. Sustained. Save it, 19 Counsel. Thank you. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. One last area. Do 21 you have -- do you have Mr. Minton's fifth -- 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 MR. WEINBERG: -- affidavit up there, 24 Mr. Dandar? 25 THE COURT: I do. And it says Number 264. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 268 1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. 3 THE COURT: At least that is what I wrote. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q You don't have a copy up there? 6 THE COURT: Do you-all have a copy back there? 7 MR. LIROT: We do, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Do you have a copy for the witness? 9 They don't have to give up their copy. The witness 10 should have one. 11 MR. WEINBERG: You are right. We need to get a 12 copy of the affidavit. Here. I have got a copy. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q Now, Mr. Dandar, Bob Minton and Stacy Brooks have 15 denied under oath that there was any extortion or blackmail 16 by the Church on them. Correct? 17 A I would expect them to deny it. 18 Q And Monique Yingling has denied there was any 19 extortion or blackmail, from the meetings that she 20 participated in, both in New York and in Florida. Correct? 21 A Of course. She participated in it. She would 22 deny it. 23 Q But what Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks did say under 24 oath, and in their affidavits which were also under oath, 25 that Mr. Minton had become increasingly concerned about what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 269 1 was going on in the court proceedings as it related to him 2 in the way of discovery orders and contempt. He said that, 3 didn't he? 4 A Sure. Because you were getting closer and closer 5 to his secrets in Switzerland. 6 Q And that he was concerned about going to jail. 7 Right? 8 A That's right. Because he didn't report his 9 income. 10 Q And he dated that concern way back to August, the 11 summer of 2001, didn't he? 12 A When you discovered Stacy Brooks opened her mouth 13 about the wire transfer. That was the big -- that was 14 the -- probably the biggest -- the first of the big turning 15 points. 16 THE COURT: What date was that? 17 THE WITNESS: August. 18 MR. WEINBERG: August of 2001. 19 THE WITNESS: Then he cut me off. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q That was my next question. Then at that point you 22 got the E-Mail -- you got the communication from Mr. Minton 23 through both Mr. Merrett and Mr. Minton that they weren't -- 24 he wasn't going to provide you any more funds? 25 A No. Just through Mr. Merrett. Mr. Minton Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 270 1 wouldn't even talk to me. 2 Q Okay. Now, and this was long before any 3 suggestion that the Church of Scientology was extorting or 4 blackmailing Mr. Minton with a $500,000 check. Correct? 5 A Right. They were only blackmailing him with this 6 Nigerian government accusations. 7 Q And you're not suggesting that the Church was 8 blackmailing him with the orders that the Church had 9 received from Judge Moody, Judge Schaeffer, Judge Beach, 10 Judge Quesada, are you? 11 A No, I'm not that naive. But they were 12 blackmailing him with his business associates, his Lexus 13 dealership in New England, the business associate who lost 14 millions of dollars and won't talk to him anymore. And the 15 things that they were doing in following his daughters 16 wherever they went, and his family on vacations, like they 17 followed me to the Cayman Islands in January of this year. 18 Q Now, if you go to Mr. Minton's affidavit, I'm 19 going to go through a couple of these E-Mails -- a few of 20 these E-Mails. 21 And on Page 3, Subparagraph E, Mr. Minton says, "A 22 copy of an E-Mail -- that this is a copy of an E-Mail, along 23 with the routing header, an PGP," that is an acronym for 24 Pretty Good Privacy, "encrypted version of the message which 25 was received from John Merrett on August 23, 2001." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 271 1 THE COURT: Where are you, Counsel? 2 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, the affidavit. I was 3 reading from Page 3 of the affidavit where he 4 explains what the E-Mail is. Then I was going to 5 turn to the -- 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q I'll start that again. Do you see Page 3E? 9 A Yes, I read it. D like in dog? 10 Q E as in Edward. 11 A I'm sorry. 12 Q "A copy of an E-Mail, along with the routing 13 header and PGP," I'll leave out what he says about PGP, 14 "encrypted version of the message which was received from 15 John Merrett on August 23rd, 2001. I stored this on the 16 hard drive of my computer when I received it and it is 17 printed as it appeared when it was originally received and 18 stored." 19 Then he refers to Exhibit E. 20 If you'll turn to Exhibit E, particularly turn to 21 the second Page of Exhibit E, you'll see that it indicates 22 an E-Mail from John Merrett and has his E-Mail address, to 23 Stacy Brooks, copied to Bob Minton, at their E-Mail 24 addresses, dated August 23, 2001. 25 Do you see that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 272 1 A I see the second encrypted page, yes. 2 Q Right. With what I just read? 3 A With what you just read on the date. Yes. 4 Q And now on the front page, first page, is the 5 decrypted -- is that the right word, decrypted message of 6 August 23rd and what -- and do you see that what Mr. Merrett 7 says to Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton is, "The biggest danger in 8 adding fuel to the 'Bob controls the litigation' claim which 9 could expose Bob to financial risk either on the case itself 10 (if not dismissed and goes badly) or on the abuse of process 11 counterclaim (which could not be resolved by dismissal of 12 the death case.)" 13 THE COURT: You read a couple words wrong 14 there, Counsel. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Did I? 16 THE COURT: "The biggest danger in," you said 17 "it is." Then you said "could." It should be 18 "would." It just says what it says. I know it is 19 not intentional. 20 MR. WEINBERG: My eyes are not working very 21 well. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q "Two, the second concern is the continued vitality 25 of the Baird case, breach of contract --" Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 273 1 A Well, I have a problem with this, before you read 2 it, because, number one, I don't agree with you that the 3 first page of E is a copy of the second encrypted page. 4 When you -- as far as I know, when you decrypt you 5 get the header back on the page. There is no header on 6 this. Anybody in the world could have typed up the first 7 page of E. So I'm not convinced that is what it is because, 8 number one, I'm not involved in this communication and -- 9 Q But Mr. Minton swears it is -- 10 A Mr. Minton swears to a lot of things that aren't 11 true. 12 THE COURT: I don't think -- I don't know why 13 you are referring this -- this lawyer to some 14 message that may or may not be the encrypted message 15 that came from somebody else, not him? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we can -- we'll review it 17 in our rebuttal case. I wanted to show him what was 18 going on in these E-Mails with regard to Mr. Minton 19 back in August of 2001. But we can do that in our 20 rebuttal case and go over it with your Honor, back 21 in August of 2001, which were consistent with what 22 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks have testified about. 23 THE COURT: There is a lot consistent with what 24 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton testified about. There is 25 a lot consistent with what Mr. Dandar testified Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 274 1 about. If you want to make a closing argument -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: I'm really not. 3 THE COURT: -- don't use something Mr. Merrett 4 wrote to Mr. Minton, maybe, to ask this witness 5 about. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, he might have seen it. 7 THE COURT: Then ask him that. Then if he says 8 yes, then we might could move on. If he says no, 9 that should be the end of the inquiry. 10 Did you ever see this? 11 THE WITNESS: Never. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q All right, turn to the affidavit again, and on 14 Page 2 at the top. And what Mr. Minton says is, "A draft 15 version of the fifth amended complaint in the wrongful death 16 case dated August 30, 1999 sent to me by E-Mail at the time 17 by Ken Dandar. This document is an ASCII --" 18 Is that how to pronounce that, by the way? 19 A Yes. 20 Q "-- ASCII text version of a document that was 21 originally word-processed. Mr. Dandar sent the 22 word-processed version of this draft to me as an E-Mail 23 attachment. I could not open the original word processed 24 version --" 25 THE COURT: Come on. Are you going to read Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 275 1 this? Let him read this, then see whatever 2 question -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: I did when he was on the stand, 4 I showed him this document. And Mr. Dandar -- 5 remember, he said he went back to his firm and he 6 couldn't find this version -- 7 THE COURT: He said maybe he sent it to him and 8 maybe he didn't was my recollection. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I thought his testimony is 10 he didn't send any pleadings in advance to 11 Mr. Minton. 12 THE COURT: I don't believe that was his 13 testimony. I think his testimony was he may have 14 sent some. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, let me -- well, this is a 16 very important one since it is the fifth amended 17 complaint and sent before it was ever filed. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, tell me, do you 19 have the fifth amended -- the real fifth amended 20 complaint? 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q I think that the first fifth amended complaint 23 you'll find under Tab B, that that is essentially -- 24 A I'm not sure because, again, it has that date at 25 the top. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 276 1 Q I understand. But I'm representing to you I 2 prepared it, that is the same. 3 A Well, you know, if you compare these two 4 documents, number one, I don't have -- I don't have the 5 capability, as far as I know, to send anything ASCII. I 6 don't even know how you do that. I get things that are 7 ASCII but I have to convert them into Word Perfect. 8 This first document I don't recognize at all 9 coming from me whatsoever. There is a lot of things on 10 there that make no sense to me at all. So I can't say under 11 oath I sent this to anybody. 12 Q Well, will you deny under oath that you sent an 13 advance draft of an earlier version of the fifth amended 14 complaint to Mr. Minton? 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I object. That assumes 16 facts not in evidence. I don't think that was 17 Mr. Dandar's testimony. My recollection is he 18 didn't know. 19 THE COURT: That is exactly what my 20 recollection is. 21 MR. WEINBERG: But I'm asking him now a 22 specific question. 23 BY MR. WEINBERG: 24 Q Did you -- 25 THE COURT: You are asking him, "Will you deny Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 277 1 under oath." Why would he deny it? He already said 2 he doesn't know if he did or not. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell you that this 4 document, the first one, has a fraud claim, Count 9, 5 and it has a breach of contract claim, Count 10. 6 And I hate -- I know you're going to get all 7 excited when I say this, but this looks like -- if 8 this document came from me, it looks like someone 9 got access to my computer somehow and copied it 10 without my authority, if this is on my computer at 11 all. 12 The second document, again -- 13 THE COURT: Was that complaint ever filed? 14 THE WITNESS: I can't say. I don't know. Of 15 course, I filed a fifth amended complaint and I 16 filed several versions of the fifth amended 17 complaint. 18 THE COURT: This is not the version of the 19 complaint that we're riding under here? 20 MR. WEINBERG: No, this is dated August 30, 21 which is right after the Philadelphia meeting, right 22 after the Prince affidavit, right before the final 23 first version is filed on September 7. 24 And Mr. Dandar made a big point about how 25 Mr. Minton had no interest in the litigation. And Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 278 1 what Mr. Minton's affidavit says is that, "I 2 received from Mr. Dandar on September 1 this 3 August 30 version of what was being considered as 4 the first -- as the fifth amended complaint that was 5 going to be filed." 6 THE WITNESS: So why don't you produce the 7 E-Mail if I sent it to him by E-Mail? That is how 8 easy this is. 9 MR. WEINBERG: He explains that in his 10 affidavit. 11 MR. LIROT: With no backup. 12 THE COURT: So the deal is move on to the next 13 question. He can't say whether he sent this or not, 14 apparently. 15 THE WITNESS: I doubt it, because this doesn't 16 look like mine because of these extra two counts at 17 the end that make no sense. You know, I just -- 18 this doesn't look like anything I did. 19 THE COURT: Am I wrong about your testimony? 20 Was your testimony, Mr. Dandar, the first, second or 21 third time you were on the stand, that you may have 22 sent him some documents in advance, you're not sure? 23 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure. But if I did, I'm 24 certainly not sending them to him to get his 25 approval for anything. You know, I don't know. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 279 1 But -- this has been going on three months, I'm kind 2 of weary. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Those are all my questions. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Redirect? 6 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 7 THE COURT: Can you tell me -- since you 8 compared this, can you tell me about -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Which one are we talking about 10 now? 11 THE COURT: -- Number A attached to 12 Mr. Minton's first affidavit. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That is different. 14 THE COURT: Was this ever filed? 15 MR. WEINBERG: No. What was filed was on 16 September 7, as part of the motion to -- what do you 17 call it -- to -- 18 THE COURT: Amend? 19 MR. WEINBERG: -- to amend, right, a copy of 20 what is Exhibit B. 21 THE COURT: So this document, Number A, has 22 never been filed in any court? 23 MR. WEINBERG: No, it is a draft, apparently. 24 And Mr. Minton says, "I received it from Mr. Dandar 25 on September 1, it is an August 30 draft," which we Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 280 1 believe would certainly be relevant as to the 2 involvement of Mr. Minton in the case. 3 THE COURT: Okay. Make your point in closing 4 argument. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I will. 6 THE COURT: Redirect or whatever it is. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Just to answer your question, 8 your Honor, this is what they handed to me when this 9 motion was filed -- if I can approach you -- on 10 September 7 -- 11 THE COURT: My question was whether this was 12 ever filed. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I'm saying, I'm 14 showing you what was filed. When the motion was 15 filed to amend on September 7, attached as an 16 exhibit was this, seeking approval to file it, which 17 was the fifth amended complaint, which is in a 18 different form than A. 19 THE COURT: Not the same complaint? 20 MR. WEINBERG: It's a slightly -- I mean, it's 21 a somewhat different version. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. WEINBERG: In other words, that would be a 24 draft. A would be a draft. 25 THE WITNESS: Judge, Exhibit B that they Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 281 1 attached, which is actually something you can read 2 but I still don't recognize the date in the top 3 left-hand corner, but Mr. Minton -- even Mr. Minton 4 in this affidavit states he got a copy of this 5 complaint in November of '99, well after the -- 6 months after it was filed, when the amended 7 complaint was filed. 8 THE COURT: You can save that for your closing 9 argument. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. Just wanted to point it 11 out. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Mr. Dandar, Mr. Weinberg was asking you about some 16 of the affidavits filed by Mr. Prince. And I believe there 17 was some concern over the affidavit filed in, I think it 18 was, the Wollersheim case. 19 Did you have an opportunity to review those 20 affidavits? 21 A I can't sit here and tell you I did. You mean 22 before I filed Mr. Prince's affidavit to add on parties? Or 23 when I first met Mr. Prince? 24 Q Well, did you have an opportunity to review these 25 and verify whether they were consistent with any of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 282 1 other information that Mr. Prince was providing you? 2 A Well, they're all consistent. 3 THE COURT: Was this before he filed the 4 complaint in question, that being the fifth amended 5 complaint? 6 MR. LIROT: That is correct, your Honor. I 7 should qualify. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, at that point in 9 time -- and he just verified it again -- Mr. Prince 10 always testified in these declarations consistent 11 with the affidavit that he prepared for this case. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q And when Mr. Prince was actually providing 14 services to you as a consultant or an expert witness, was 15 there a condition that he not participate in any other 16 litigation? 17 A No. No. Independent contractor. 18 Q Was there any condition that he not provide 19 services to the LMT at any point that he assisted you? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you ever require him to waive any First 22 Amendment rights he may have to criticize any issue? 23 A No. 24 Q Now, was there anything of concern to you 25 receiving any information from Teresa Summers or other Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 283 1 people that might have expressed interest in the Lisa 2 McPherson wrongful death case? 3 A No. I was hoping people would send me 4 information. And people have sent me information from all 5 over -- all over the globe. Honestly. 6 Q Was the purpose of the Lisa McPherson Trust to 7 provide some sort of umbrella source of information just to 8 you for the wrongful death case? 9 A No. Not at all. 10 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg -- this was Exhibit Number 11 267 -- I'll go ahead and pass that up, Judge. 12 This was the information that was faxed to the 13 State Attorney's Office. Do you recognize that? 14 A Well, this looks like my paralegal's handwriting 15 on the fax cover sheet. And, of course, the affidavit has 16 my fax information at the top. So this would have come from 17 my office on September 1. 18 Q Were the lines of communication open between you 19 and the State Attorney's Office relative to common issues 20 regarding Lisa McPherson? 21 A Yes. I mean, I would tell them what I knew. Of 22 course, they wouldn't tell me what they knew. But I 23 would -- they encouraged me to send any information. 24 Dr. Wood encouraged me, you know, if I had any information, 25 to go ahead and send it over. And I did. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 284 1 Q Was the purpose in providing the State Attorney's 2 Office information about the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 3 case or any other issue regarding Lisa McPherson with an 4 intent to put pressure on the Church? 5 A No. It was to make sure that -- that the State 6 Attorney's Office, and, in particular, Doug Crow who I 7 respect and admire, had all of the information he could 8 possibly have in doing his job. 9 THE COURT: Well, we must not be -- we must not 10 be foolish here. Obviously, had the State 11 prosecuted the Church or Mr. Miscavige or any person 12 for manslaughter, and been successful, presumably 13 that would have made the wrongful death case a 14 little easier. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think it's 16 admissible, though, Judge. I mean, what they do on 17 the criminal side I can't use on the civil -- like 18 even if they went and pled no contest -- 19 THE COURT: Are we crazy here or what? If they 20 bring a manslaughter charge and they are successful 21 and they persuade a jury beyond a reasonable doubt 22 that David Miscavige, the Church of Scientology, 23 David (sic) Kartuzinski, anybody else, was guilty 24 beyond a reasonable doubt of manslaughter, does that 25 not make the same allegation that has a lesser Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 285 1 burden of proof a little easier to settle, take to 2 trial or anything else? 3 THE WITNESS: The way you phrased that? Yes. 4 Yes. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Was any of the information you provided to the 7 State Attorney false, to your knowledge? 8 A Oh, no. Not at all. 9 Q Was there any bad-faith motive that you had in 10 providing them information that you acquired in your 11 research? 12 A No. I believe as an officer of the court I 13 actually had a duty to do something like that if I had 14 information that they could use. I wish I had the 15 information they had, but I didn't get that until after the 16 charges were dismissed. 17 Q Mr. Dandar, let me ask you something about the 18 checks, the two -- 19 THE COURT: By the way, I don't suggest there 20 is any wrong with that. I'm simply saying that is a 21 fact. I mean, civil lawyers -- if there is a 22 criminal case pending and there is a criminal 23 conviction of same -- you should feel a little 24 better about your case. You have a lesser burden. 25 MR. LIROT: I think that is an accurate Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 286 1 assumption, your Honor. 2 THE WITNESS: Except in this case I have to 3 wait because they were pleading the Fifth Amendment, 4 I couldn't take their depositions so it just delayed 5 and delayed and delayed everything. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Now, the first check that you received, the 8 $500,000 check you received in, I think it was, May of 2000, 9 now, did you make a special request that that come from a 10 confidential source? 11 A No. I didn't make any request at all. 12 Q All right. In the context of your negotiations 13 with Mr. Minton and knowing what you knew or certainly 14 presumed to have been informed of about the Church's 15 practices, what might seem strange in some instances, did it 16 seem strange to you that you were getting an anonymous check 17 for half a million dollars? 18 A No. 19 THE COURT: Frankly, I think he covered that. 20 A These people wanted to remain anonymous. They 21 were his friends in Europe. I got the check. By that time 22 in May of 2000, I have already been through the ringer of 23 Scientology contacting my clients, accusing me of crimes, 24 immoral conduct. My wife had been approached several times 25 at our home. My wife and daughter, shopping, their Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 287 1 photographs had been taken. People stop in front of them at 2 stop signs and don't move their car like they're supposed 3 to. By May of 2000, we had been through quite a bit. And I 4 could understand why anybody wanted to remain anonymous. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you a document that 7 we have not marked yet, I'll go ahead and get an exhibit 8 number from the clerk, if I may. 9 THE CLERK: 192. 10 MR. LIROT: 192. Here is a copy for you, 11 Judge. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what has been 14 marked as Plaintiff's Exhibit 192 and ask you if you can 15 identify that for the Court. 16 A This was an affidavit of my client, Linda 17 Herrington, dated April 28, 1998. 18 This is a prime example of what I have been 19 talking about. She was one of the first clients I knew had 20 been contacted by a private investigator, which caused me to 21 ask Judge Moody to stop it because of what she says in this 22 affidavit, of the private investigator who I found out to be 23 Brian Raftery, who is the same investigator for the Church 24 that went after Mr. Prince a couple years later, accusing me 25 of immoral conduct with her thirteen-year-old daughter who Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 288 1 at the time of this interview that she relays in this 2 affidavit was 22 years old. 3 And, of course, it is all false. But accuses me 4 of crimes and accuses me of all kinds of things that they 5 are going to try to get me convicted of. It is all false. 6 But this is the client that was going to testify 7 before the Florida Bar, and two weeks before that was killed 8 in a head-on collision with a truck in Plant City where she 9 lived. And I couldn't use her testimony. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 11 A It was Mr. Raftery who alerted the Florida Bar of 12 Ms. Herrington's death. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I object to that because 14 that is not accurate. This is the -- the 15 allegations that were made against me and 16 Ms. Vaughan that resulted in a Bar complaint by 17 Mr. Dandar, resulted in us having to respond, 18 resulted in a hearing, a hearing which took place, 19 and ended in a finding of no probable cause where he 20 had an opportunity to present this information and 21 any other information that he had. And it was done 22 and there was nothing that came out of it. 23 And this is another attempt, in my judgment, to 24 try to -- to besmirch the lawyers without any -- 25 sufficient evidence. And I object to it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 289 1 THE WITNESS: Could I respond to that, Judge? 2 THE COURT: No. 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, I want to ask him some 4 questions about this. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I'll flat out ask you, was this an attempt -- 8 THE COURT: Excuse me, if that was an 9 objection, it is overruled. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Was this an attempt to besmirch anyone? 12 A No. This is an attempt to play fair. I was 13 trying to get Mr. Fugate -- and I don't know if Mr. Weinberg 14 was involved in this but I didn't accuse him of anything -- 15 at the time it was just Mr. Fugate and his associate, Laura 16 Vaughan, before Judge Moody. 17 I brought it to Judge Moody's attention. 18 Mr. Fugate and Ms. Vaughan denied any knowledge of this 19 private investigator. In fact, they said I was making it 20 up. 21 Then I brought it to the judge's attention again 22 because other people were getting contacted. And Mr. Fugate 23 and Ms. Vaughan again denied it to the judge. 24 THE COURT: Who is Ms. Vaughan? Excuse me. 25 MR. WEINBERG: She used to be an associate at Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 290 1 our firm back then. 2 THE COURT: Was she working on this case? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, she was. 4 THE WITNESS: So then I -- Ms. Linda Herrington 5 was meeting with this Brian Raftery four or five 6 times. Finally, she got a phone number for him. 7 I called and got his real name, because he was 8 using an assumed name with her. I subpoenaed him 9 for a hearing. And Mr. Fugate and Ms. Vaughan filed 10 a motion to quash the subpoena. And we had a 11 hearing. 12 And I recall Judge Moody looking at both of 13 them, saying, "I thought you told me on two or more 14 occasions before this hearing that Mr. Dandar was 15 making all this up and you had no knowledge about 16 this?" 17 And Mr. Fugate or Ms. Vaughan, I don't remember 18 which one, said, "No, Judge, our client had us hire 19 this private investigator, and we're allowed to 20 investigate Mr. Dandar, so it is all work product, 21 and we should not have to have a hearing on this." 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q The woman approached by the private investigator, 24 what did she have to do with the Lisa McPherson wrongful 25 death case? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 291 1 A She had nothing to do with it. She was a poor 2 woman, someone who I helped out for free, and her like -- 3 had like four or five kids living in a trailer park and 4 needed to vacate, they had no money. And it was my pro bono 5 service to help her out. 6 I got her -- I paid for the truck to come move her 7 trailer to Plant City on a nice half-acre lot, and she was 8 out in Gibsonton and she was happy. And, you know, I did my 9 service to the community with that case. 10 And I also represented -- I forgot -- how could I 11 forget this -- I also represented her for the death of her 12 son, unrelated. 13 But she had nothing to do with the Church of 14 Scientology, nor all my other clients that they went and 15 even coached and persuaded somehow to file Bar complaints 16 against me. 17 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I do object to this 18 because this was the subject of a Bar complaint and 19 hearing where he had an opportunity to bring people 20 in and to support the allegations that he makes out 21 of thin air. And it didn't happen. It didn't 22 happen. And he knows it didn't happen. And what he 23 just described to you didn't happen. And I'm sick 24 of it. 25 THE COURT: He says it did. And this is a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 292 1 different hearing. And I, frankly, think he's on 2 the stand and he's been accused of some pretty -- 3 MR. FUGATE: I apologize. 4 THE COURT: -- bad things. And your objection 5 once again is overruled. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would like to move Exhibit 7 192 into evidence. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. This is just 9 hearsay. And the woman is dead. 10 THE COURT: Overruled. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm -- 13 THE COURT: It goes, if nothing else, to his 14 belief about people not wanting to identify 15 themselves for contributions. So it has some 16 relevance even if it is not true. I'm not saying it 17 is true or not. If she's dead, obviously we 18 can't -- you can't -- nobody can -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: I can't -- 20 THE COURT: -- get any information about that. 21 However, I'm allowing it in. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. 23 THE COURT: Just like I have allowed in a whole 24 slew of other affidavits from folks who have never 25 been here. And I have no idea if their affidavits Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 293 1 are true or false, like Mr. Miscavige, like just a 2 slew of people, you know, lawyers, and 3 Mr. Wollersheim, and -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Joe Yanny and all that stuff. 5 THE COURT: Yanny. And, I mean, just a whole 6 slew of affidavits in this proceeding. 7 But as far as Mr. Dandar, some of the 8 statements he has made, what it is he thought -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 10 THE COURT: -- as far as the Church of 11 Scientology and their efforts to bother him or what 12 have you is quite relevant. So -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, just so the record -- 14 the objection is clear, it's not just an objection 15 because the allegation which is false was made 16 against Mr. Fugate or Ms. Vaughan. But it is also a 17 false allegation against our client. 18 And -- and so our objection is not just to 19 Mr. Dandar rattling off about things that have 20 already gone in front of a Bar committee, but it is 21 also rattling off about things just absolutely not 22 true about the client and talking about hearsay -- 23 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is what 24 might be relevant in a Bar complaint as far as what 25 Mr. Fugate had to do with this, if anything, is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 294 1 absolutely of no never mind to me. I have no way of 2 knowing if this has to do with Mr. Fugate or not. 3 I have just ruled this has some relevance and 4 it is, therefore, admissible in this hearing. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted -- 6 THE COURT: You can talk about it all you want, 7 but it is really a very simple thing. You-all need 8 to get used to it. 9 If we ever get to trial and I rule something is 10 admissible or inadmissible, if you think you'll 11 stand up and make a huge record of it, I don't care 12 what you think about this. 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. I knew you had already 14 ruled. 15 THE COURT: Then sit down. Let's move. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 17 THE COURT: I mean, I don't expect them to get 18 up every time I let something in they think is 19 harmful to their case, they think is not true, to 20 get up and -- to stand up and say so. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 22 THE COURT: But you keep doing it. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what we marked 25 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 193. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 295 1 MR. LIROT: I have a courtesy copy for you, 2 your Honor. A copy for the clerk. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Can you identify that document for the Court? 5 A This is -- 6 THE COURT: Now I can hear you up here. 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 8 A This is a more recent affidavit of a client of 9 mine, a current client of mine. And she was, back in the 10 time she wrote this affidavit, May 26, 1999, Ann Koutelas, 11 K-O-U-T-E-L-A-S. Ann Koutelas. 12 She was approached several times by a private 13 investigator and finally agreed to talk with him. He 14 actually showed her a badge, as she states in Paragraph 15 Number 3, and said they were investigating an attorney. And 16 he mentioned my name as being the one he was investigating 17 and coached her -- this is the only -- well, this is the one 18 I know for sure, coached by the investigator to file a Bar 19 complaint against me concerning a case where I represented 20 her in a fall on an elevator years ago. And she actually 21 filed a Bar complaint. 22 I only found out about it when I got a letter from 23 the Bar -- a copy of a letter to her -- saying that, you 24 know, there is nothing to talk about, the Bar wasn't going 25 to look at this at all. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 296 1 But here they are alleging that I'm transporting 2 illegal weapons -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. 4 A -- and fraudulent insurance claims. 5 MR. WEINBERG: They are alleging? The 6 suggestion that -- he's reading from an affidavit 7 dated back in '99. We don't know who this woman is. 8 She apparently filed a Bar complaint against him. 9 And now it is being used against us in this 10 proceeding? 11 THE COURT: It is not being used against you, 12 Counsel. Maybe you didn't hear me. Maybe you would 13 like me to tell you again. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 15 THE COURT: I think the problem, you just don't 16 listen. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I try to. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar has made some statements 19 in this case. And part of his statements is why it 20 was that he believed it when Mr. Minton said that 21 some -- some anonymous folks from Europe were going 22 to donate $500,000. 23 I have kind of looked at him and said that I 24 find almost unbelievable. 25 He has said, "Yes, but the reason is that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 297 1 because this is a unique case. And I knew what 2 happened and I knew it was happening to me. And I 3 knew this, that and the other thing." 4 And so now I presume this is part of what it is 5 he's trying to establish he knew why that statement 6 that seemed so farfetched to me is not farfetched as 7 to what he was thinking. I don't know what was 8 going on in his head. These are things he is saying 9 he knew, which is the only thing that makes this 10 relevant, as to why he thought some folks would give 11 half a million dollars to him and would not want to 12 be known or named or have the Church of Scientology 13 in any way, shape or form know who they were, why 14 this testimony made sense to him. 15 Now, is that the relevance? 16 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 17 MR. LIROT: Absolutely, Judge. 18 THE COURT: So if you don't understand that, I 19 can't help you. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand what you just said. 21 THE COURT: I do understand that. And that is 22 why I overruled your objection. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I understand what you just said. 24 THE COURT: I'll overrule the next one if you 25 have it. So the affidavits come in because this is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 298 1 part of his case to establish why that isn't so 2 farfetched as far as he's concerned. 3 MR. WEINBERG: They come in for his state of 4 mind but not for the truth? 5 THE COURT: That is exactly right. Well, they 6 come in for what Mr. Dandar believes is the truth. 7 MR. WEINBERG: That is what I said. 8 THE COURT: Obviously, he thinks they are 9 absolutely true. You people think they are 10 absolutely false. There is nothing different about 11 this than there is anything else that has gone on in 12 this case. 13 MR. WEINBERG: All right, until a minute ago I 14 had not seen them, so ... 15 THE WITNESS: This person, Ann Koutelas, I 16 continue to represent her. 17 THE COURT: But you know the truth of the 18 matter is I really don't need you to read off this. 19 I can read off it, too. If that is the relevance, 20 then, you see, I figured it out before I even read 21 it, I just read a part of it. 22 You need to introduce it. 23 MR. LIROT: I would like to introduce it. 24 THE COURT: Then what you need to do is go to 25 your closing argument to go to explain it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 299 1 MR. LIROT: Very good. 2 THE COURT: This record is way too long and, 3 frankly, I can tell that I have just about had it. 4 And I can feel it coming. You know, I can always 5 tell when I have had just about as much as I can 6 handle for the day, and then I go off and do 7 something I wish hadn't done. 8 So just introduce it and then move on to your 9 next -- 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I move Exhibit 193 into 11 evidence. 12 THE COURT: All right. I'm going to receive 13 it. 14 MR. WEINBERG: And we have the same objection. 15 THE COURT: You have the same objection. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, Mr. Dandar, were there other instances that 19 didn't result in affidavits where you felt the Church was 20 putting you under scrutiny that had nothing to do with the 21 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 22 A Well, Mr. Moxon, in a deposition of Jesse Prince's 23 fiancee, Dee Phillips, in a criminal case, I believe, of 24 Mr. Prince, Mr. Moxon questioned his fiancee, Dee 25 Phillips -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 300 1 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Now I'm so 2 confused. How could Mr. Moxon be questioning 3 anybody in a criminal case? He wouldn't have any 4 standing to take a deposition. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, it must be the civil case. 6 THE COURT: Civil case. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. You are right. I'm kind 8 of tired. You are right. It is not a good thing to 9 be a witness all day. 10 A But, anyway, Mr. Moxon -- the question that came 11 out of his mouth was, "And isn't it true that you are -- 12 that Mr. Prince and Ken Dandar are engaged in drug dealing, 13 illegal arms dealing, some other crimes?" 14 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon asked this Mr. Prince's 15 fiancee whether Mr. Prince was involved in these 16 illegal activities, and you? 17 THE WITNESS: And me. Right. Right. That is 18 one. 19 A Another one is just this January I flew with my 20 family to the Cayman Islands. Sitting in the lounge waiting 21 for our room, someone runs up, snaps our picture and runs 22 away. Could that be just a tourist wanting to take my 23 picture? I don't think so. 24 My wife and daughter, I already said this, going 25 to the shopping center, to the mall, supermarket, they had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 301 1 been followed over the years. Their picture has been taken 2 while they are sitting at a light. Some guy pulls up, takes 3 their picture, they see the flash. I don't understand it. 4 They are, again, annoyed by it. And we live and we go on. 5 Yes, I have been -- I believe 100 percent my 6 office has been broken into repeatedly. I can't prove it 7 because the cops can't figure it out. And -- but things are 8 moved around, lights are left on, things like that. I have 9 no proof it is the Church. I never had that experience 10 before I took this case. 11 My volunteer people, like Patricia Greenway who is 12 not here today. She's part of the production company that 13 produced the movie, The Profit, Courage Productions. She 14 was set for deposition December 2001 by Mr. Moxon. It was 15 continued for her to get a lawyer, reset for either January 16 or February. In January the Church, the Palm Springs org, 17 files a police complaint against her, Mr. Croates 18 (phonetic), who used to be a private investigator for the 19 Lisa McPherson Trust, and Frank Oliver, accusing them of 20 being suspects in an arson, criminal arson, against the 21 Church in Palm Springs, Florida. And that investigation is 22 still open. I mean, that got her all excited, to put it 23 mildly. 24 And Mr. Garko was sued by the Church of 25 Scientology before Judge Baird. We recently saw Mr. Moxon Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 302 1 meeting with him in private, then he resigns as my trial 2 consultant shortly after he testified here. And then they 3 write a letter dismissing him, they are not going to be 4 pursuing that, saying they had no facts to sue him. Well, 5 they should not have done it in the first place. But that 6 caused a lot of concern with Dr. Garko. And I'm still, I 7 guess, a potential defendant in that case. We haven't had a 8 hearing on that yet. 9 THE COURT: What case is that? 10 THE WITNESS: That is the breach of contract 11 case in front of Judge Baird. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Well, Mr. Dandar, in the context of what you just 14 testified to -- 15 THE COURT: Wait a second. 16 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 17 THE COURT: I heard you say earlier, when you 18 were maybe talking too fast -- but did I hear you 19 say something about your phones or your credit? Or 20 your phone or your -- either your phone or credit? 21 Did I hear you say something about either of those? 22 THE WITNESS: Actually, I said both. This is 23 what I said. Let's see. 24 When I went to buy a house, on the same street 25 where my other house was -- I moved down the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 303 1 street -- I believe this was in the summer of '99, 2 applied for a mortgage. And when I went to apply 3 for a mortgage, my credit report came back. 4 I was denied a mortgage at first because I had 5 these three phone bills. That is where they come 6 together. Three phone bills appear on my credit 7 report. And -- one in Minneapolis, one in Dallas, 8 Texas and one in Southern California. And they had 9 my Social Security number on all of those. But they 10 had some of my other family history incorrect. But 11 they still were under my name, under my Social 12 Security number, on my credit report, which caused 13 my mortgage company to say no until I got rid of 14 those charges. 15 THE COURT: These were three bills -- three 16 phone bills in three different cities or states that 17 were not yours, I gather? 18 THE WITNESS: Right. I never lived there. 19 THE COURT: Still unpaid at the time you made 20 your application? 21 THE WITNESS: Correct. That is the first time 22 I discovered, when I made my application for a 23 mortgage. 24 THE COURT: Where were they? What cities and 25 states? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 304 1 THE WITNESS: Dallas, Texas phone company where 2 Lisa McPherson used to work. 3 THE COURT: Dallas, Texas -- 4 THE WITNESS: Phone company. 5 THE COURT: What is it, is this a number? Just 6 a number out there? 7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, it is like -- I think 8 it is called -- I can't remember the name, Southern 9 Bell located in Dallas, Texas. Someone went to an 10 apartment, opened up -- you know, rented an 11 apartment, I guess in my name, I don't know about 12 that, but they opened up a phone service, private 13 phone service, residential, in my name in Dallas, 14 Texas. 15 THE COURT: Made long distance calls? 16 THE WITNESS: Ran up a bill. 17 THE COURT: Didn't pay it? 18 THE WITNESS: Didn't pay it. Somebody went to 19 Minneapolis where Dr. Coe is and Dr. Bandt, opened 20 up a residential phone service in my name, ran up 21 the bill and then didn't pay it. 22 Somebody went to Southern California, opened 23 the account, same thing, ran up a phone bill, didn't 24 pay it. 25 So they all show up on my credit report. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 305 1 THE COURT: All in your name with your Social 2 Security number attached to it? 3 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 4 THE COURT: Did you ever live in any of those 5 three places? 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 THE COURT: Did you ever have phone service in 8 your name in any of those three places? 9 THE WITNESS: Never. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: So what I did, I had to go to the 12 City of St. Petersburg, because I lived here for a 13 long time, you know, and I have been a resident of 14 Tampa Bay for 24 years, between St. Pete and Tampa. 15 And I had to go get my utility bills for these 16 months and I had to send them in. 17 Everyone dismissed those bills off my credit 18 report except the phone company where Lisa McPherson 19 used to work where I know that her boss was a 20 Scientologist, because that is what her mother told 21 me. So that bill remained unpaid. 22 I sent them all of the stuff. They refused to 23 take it off my credit report. I could have sued. 24 But my bank said, "Look, we'll pay the bill 25 ourselves. We want your business." So they paid Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 306 1 the bill. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q In the context of -- 4 THE COURT: Got your credit cleared up 5 eventually? 6 THE WITNESS: Right, because the bank lending 7 me the money for the house said, you know, "We'll 8 pay the darned thing off," because I was going to 9 sue. And I don't have time to do that. 10 THE COURT: Anything else like that, or like 11 what you have just been telling us that can explain 12 stuff? 13 THE WITNESS: I have had lawyers call me up. 14 You can go investigate my clients, I guess, and 15 ask -- tell them I'm a criminal. But I had lawyers 16 call up telling me -- saying they had been 17 contacted. 18 I had an insurance investigator, also, who is a 19 client of mine -- or was a client of mine. But he's 20 a business acquaintance more than anything else. 21 And he called me up and said, "Look, I just got a 22 call from some guy in California. They're looking 23 for a good lawyer. They mentioned your name. They 24 wanted to know as much as I would tell them about 25 you, and I hung up on them." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 307 1 I said, "Well, that is great." 2 Now I don't know who it was. It could have 3 been a coincidence. 4 Mmm, you can see I'm well rehearsed for this 5 because I'm trying to remember all these things. 6 There are quite a few. I'm not well rehearsed for 7 this question. 8 THE COURT: File an affidavit. 9 THE WITNESS: Pardon me? 10 THE COURT: File an affidavit. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. But people associated with 12 me like Peter Alexander, who did the movie The 13 Profit, he goes to Germany to the film festival. 14 Somebody goes into his hotel lobby where the 15 trailers of his movie are, he looks just like Peter 16 Alexander, he signs the movie and takes the 17 trailers, and the movie trailers are all stolen. 18 I can go on, but that would be rank hearsay to 19 go on. 20 THE COURT: I'm talking about things that 21 specifically you think happened to you that you 22 would -- but you are saying you knew about some 23 other things that also influenced you to think 24 that -- 25 THE WITNESS: All these things -- these are Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 308 1 things that -- 2 THE COURT: That influenced you? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, since '97. The other thing 4 is the credit card -- or the credit report was one 5 thing. But on my credit report there were also 6 inquiries made by different companies. And I didn't 7 do -- that is the first time I heard Hana Whitfield 8 talk about that. I didn't do what she did. I 9 didn't call up and try to investigate this. I just 10 saw there were a bunch of inquiries made on my 11 credit report, which also caused me some financing 12 difficulties, I'll say, in -- down the road because 13 no one -- I could not explain why these inquiries 14 were being made on my credit report when I didn't 15 apply for credit with any of those companies. They 16 just -- it just shows up on your credit report and 17 that causes your credit rating -- which mine was 18 very high -- to start to go down and cause people 19 who want to lend you money or finance things to ask 20 you a lot of questions. 21 Mmm, I have had numerous people call me up who 22 want to give me information but they don't want to 23 give me their real names. They are former 24 Scientologists. 25 Mmm, the woman that came in here, Nancy Many, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 309 1 last week, she communicated to me maybe a year ago 2 under an assumed name. I didn't know who she was. 3 It wasn't until -- it was only two or three days 4 before she decided to get the nerve up to come and 5 testify did she give me her real name. And I 6 couldn't -- she wouldn't even tell me in confidence 7 because -- well, because you just don't do that. 8 So when Mr. Minton comes around and says 9 friends in Europe, and I already know about people 10 in France and Germany who support this case, they 11 want to send money, I don't know their names. I 12 still don't know their names. 13 So when Mr. Minton shows up -- and this has 14 been going on ever since I took this case -- when 15 Mr. Minton shows up with his UBS check, it doesn't 16 seem farfetched. I believed Mr. Minton, because at 17 that point in time I trusted Mr. Minton. I mean, he 18 was a person who put his money where his mouth was 19 and he was real. And he was sincere. 20 And he wasn't out to take down the Church of 21 Scientology. He wanted to do -- he wanted to expose 22 what Fannie McPherson wanted, their abuse. 23 And I have a video of Fannie McPherson, sitting 24 on my laptop, of her talking to a German 25 interviewer, telling the German interviewer what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 310 1 they did to her daughter. And they accused me of 2 making all these allegations up. I got all that 3 from Fannie McPherson saying that "They killed my 4 daughter." 5 THE COURT: Fannie McPherson would not know 6 what happened to her daughter, right? She 7 absolutely would not know. Now, that answer is a 8 yes. 9 THE WITNESS: Absolutely, she would not know. 10 But she did talk to me. That was a year after she 11 talked to the police. And she was upset that she 12 had her daughter's remains cremated, she was told 13 that is what her daughter wanted. And no one in the 14 family has ever been cremated before. And being 15 cremated in this case has been a drawback for 16 everyone, even the defense says they wish she wasn't 17 cremated. And it's -- it's a hindrance to proving 18 the case, although we do have the other evidence of 19 vitreous. 20 But as I sit here today, I mean, I just can't 21 remember any more instances. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 THE WITNESS: But I just know there are very 24 few people like Mr. Prince or Hana Whitfield or some 25 other former Scientologists who are willing to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 311 1 known to talk about Scientology. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Prince had the criminal case. 3 We already addressed that in hearing. 4 THE WITNESS: That is another instance. But 5 Mr. Prince had that criminal case, that is right. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Minton had a criminal case. 7 THE WITNESS: He had two criminal cases which 8 he was not convicted of. 9 Mr. Bunker had a criminal case in Chicago in 10 which he was not convicted. 11 And then you haven't mentioned the harassment 12 time line. I did not make up my own time line. 13 I have had credit card entries. Somebody 14 purchased $8,500 of stereo equipment on my credit 15 card. My credit card company caught it. Someone 16 purchased a $2,800 diamond ring from Spiegel catalog 17 in December 2000. Not mine. My credit card company 18 caught that. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q So, Mr. Dandar, in the context of obviously what 21 you have testified to are suspicious circumstances, and I 22 guess coupled with Mr. Minton having given you checks before 23 the -- I guess the May 2000 check, written on his own 24 account, signed by him, did it seem strange that you would 25 be getting this $500,000 check from -- from sources that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 312 1 were represented to you wanted to remain anonymous? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg asked you about, apparently, 6 another check drawn on UBS account given to Courage 7 Productions. 8 A Correct. 9 Q Did you ever see that check before it was attached 10 as an exhibit to the motion that is before the Court? 11 A Never. 12 Q Were you ever told about that check by anybody 13 associated with Courage Productions? 14 A No. 15 THE COURT: What was the date of that check? I 16 know it is in evidence but -- I think it is in 17 evidence. Anybody? 18 MR. FUGATE: It is either May of 2000 or -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: We'll find it. It is in 2000, I 20 believe. 21 THE COURT: Well, I can find it if it is in 22 evidence. Is it in evidence? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 MR. FUGATE: It is. 25 MR. LIROT: Yes, it is an exhibit to the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 313 1 original motion, I believe, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. WEINBERG: And it was also one of the ones 4 that Mr. Minton put in. He got some stuff from the 5 Swiss bank, if you'll remember. 6 THE COURT: Go ahead, I'm sorry, I didn't mean 7 to interrupt. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Mr. Dandar -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me for a second. It is 11 Defense Exhibit 122, your Honor, according to our 12 record. 13 THE COURT: Thank you. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q I'm going to show you again I think what 16 Mr. Weinberg -- forgive me, Judge, I don't know if this has 17 been entered into evidence, this is Exhibit 269 -- the -- 18 it's been represented as evidence of a wire transfer to the 19 Lisa McPherson Trust. 20 A Right. 21 Q And I think it has been represented that that was 22 produced by Bank of America at a deposition. 23 A Right. 24 Q Have you ever seen that before? 25 A No. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 314 1 Q Down in about the middle of that exhibit, what 2 does it say about -- it says "name of originator." 3 A Apostolorum, which is A-P-O-S-T-O-L-O-R-U-M. I 4 have no idea what that is. 5 Q Down below that does it say, another, I guess, 6 source? It says, "one of our clients." 7 A Yes. 8 Q Does it say anywhere anything about Mr. Minton on 9 that document? 10 A No. 11 THE COURT: What is the number again? I know 12 it was just introduced, but I gave those all to the 13 clerk. 14 MR. LIROT: 269, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I'll probably be hearing about them 16 again. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Is there any characteristic of that document to 19 lead anybody to believe that the funds allegedly represented 20 in there came from Mr. Minton or involved Mr. Minton in any 21 way? 22 A No. In fact, it is very deceptive. It says 23 Apostolorum as the originator to beneficiary. I don't know 24 what Apostolorum is. I don't know if that it someone's 25 name. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 315 1 THE COURT: So it doesn't identify the LMT, 2 either? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, as the recipient, yes. 4 THE COURT: All right. What is Apostolorum. 5 That is a name? 6 THE WITNESS: A name printed right here. It 7 has "originator." 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, the question that 10 you had asked me which I didn't answer by giving you 11 the exhibit, the date of the check is August 23, 12 2000 -- 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. WEINBERG: -- of the $500,000 check. 15 THE COURT: Thank you. And the date of the 16 wire transfer again? 17 MR. WEINBERG: That is the -- 18 THE WITNESS: March 19, 2001. 19 THE COURT: Thanks. 20 MR. LIROT: Forgive me if I asked this, Judge. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Have you ever seen that document before? 23 MR. WEINBERG: You did ask that. 24 A No. No. I have never seen this. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 316 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Were you at that deposition, if you recall? 3 A No. The way Mr. Moxon worded the deposition, that 4 it would not have included me. Apparently, it has included 5 me somehow. They got one of my checks, even though there is 6 a stay. They got one of my checks from Mr. Minton to me 7 dated May of 2001, if I'm -- if I'm correct on the date. I 8 don't know. 9 Well, the check date is right. The deposition is 10 after the stay was entered. 11 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to show you what has been 12 marked as Exhibit 270, Defendant's Exhibit 270. 13 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, give me all those 14 back, all of the things I handed you, if you haven't 15 put them away. 16 Thanks. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Mr. Dandar, it's my understanding that 19 Mr. Weinberg entered that as an explanation as to, I guess, 20 some of the heat, and that is my term, that Mr. Minton was 21 feeling about the Church gaining access into his private 22 records. 23 A That is right. This is -- yes, it says Los 24 Angeles. I didn't know AG meant Switzerland or Germany. 25 But this was -- caused concern to Mr. Minton. And the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 317 1 closer they got to his Swiss bank accounts, the more upset 2 he got. 3 Q In addition to whatever issues might be 4 represented by that document, were you aware that Mr. Minton 5 was upset about other issues where the Church was looking 6 into his private affairs? 7 A Well, this -- the Swiss bank -- I don't know how 8 many there are -- but he was upset about that, tremendously 9 upset about that. 10 The Nigerian thing, he was upset about, but he 11 handled it until he got word in 2002, the first week of 12 March, that there was a new prosecutor and a new judge in 13 Switzerland on this case. And that caused him a lot more 14 grief. And he was really concerned about that. 15 Q What was your understanding of what you referred 16 to as the Nigerian thing? 17 A He arbitraged, apparently, a couple billion 18 dollars of debt for Nigeria. Nigeria owed a third country 19 money. And he got another country, we'll call it the fourth 20 country, to purchase that debt at a big discount. So the 21 fourth country now had Nigeria owing them money. The third 22 country got the fourth country's money in return, they were 23 happy. Mr. Minton makes his commission, he and his 24 partners, whatever that is, I understand hundreds and 25 hundreds of millions of dollars. And everybody is happy. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 318 1 And it's all -- as far as he told me, and what I read about 2 it -- all legitimate. 3 So I could never understand what he's worried 4 about. But when he heard about a new prosecutor and new 5 judge looking into this in March of 2002, he was very 6 concerned about that. 7 Q I was going to ask you about the time frame. Is 8 March of 2002 the first that you heard Mr. Minton express 9 concern about the Nigerian issue? 10 A Right. He would always just kind of laugh it off 11 and try to explain it. And he did explain it. 12 And I -- when he explained it, I couldn't figure 13 out how Scientology was going to turn that around into some 14 crime. But I saw the newspaper articles about it and I saw 15 their pamphlets about it. And they're trying to make it 16 into a crime when it's not a crime. 17 THE COURT: Their pamphlets? 18 THE WITNESS: Scientology pamphlets. They had 19 some fliers. They had this soccer player, Fashanu, 20 F-A-S-H-A-N-U -- 21 THE COURT: I don't want to hear about him 22 again. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. 24 THE COURT: It was Mr. Minton's belief that the 25 Church of Scientology was exploring something about Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 319 1 this Nigerian -- Nigerian transaction? 2 THE WITNESS: Definitely. 3 THE COURT: And it was his belief that they 4 were pursuing something that they believed or 5 thought that the Nigerian government, Swiss 6 government, somebody thought, might be illegal? 7 THE WITNESS: Exactly. It was in England and 8 it was in Switzerland. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, however, never 10 indicated to you -- or he certainly hasn't here -- 11 that there was anything illegal about it. 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. He said it was on the 13 up-and-up, it was with the government's approval, 14 the government's knowledge, and the government was 15 happy. And then the dictator came in after this was 16 all over -- I can't pronounce his name -- but that 17 is when things changed. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Now, in March of 2002, apparently when I think 20 Mr. Moxon made -- as reflected in 271 when Judge Schaeffer 21 signed the order, was there anything about these documents 22 that causes you to be suspicious about the funds given to 23 you anonymously, as you believed, that they came from 24 Mr. Minton's Swiss bank accounts? 25 A No. No. This -- everything -- when you just look Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 320 1 at the broad picture and you put it all together, everything 2 makes sense that there is nobody on earth that would want to 3 put their name out on a check to me and have to go through 4 what Mr. Minton went through. 5 So for this to be Mr. Minton's money makes no 6 sense to me and still doesn't. I think he pled the Fifth 7 Amendment here just to protect the source of this money 8 because they don't want to have to go through what 9 Mr. Minton went through. Because it makes no sense for 10 Mr. Minton to write two checks out of, what, a dozen checks 11 or -- I don't know how many there are -- and have them UBS 12 checks and not his own personal checks. It doesn't make any 13 sense unless it -- it is not his money. So that is the only 14 thing that makes sense to me. 15 Q So was your belief that Mr. Minton would be under 16 the same, I'll call it, scrutiny by the Church because he'd 17 already given you checks written by himself, written on his 18 own accounts? 19 A Yes. Why hide the check? Why hide 2 out of 12? 20 Or 2 out of 10? Whatever it is. 21 THE COURT: Are you being naive again, Counsel? 22 THE WITNESS: Judge, you know, I might be. 23 Judge, I wasn't a former IRS agent. 24 THE COURT: Did you hear the Fifth Amendment 25 being taken? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 321 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Did you understand anything 3 about -- about foreign money and paying taxes on 4 foreign money when you either -- either receive it 5 or if you legitimately don't have to pay taxes on it 6 when you receive it, that when you bring it into 7 this country, you have to pay taxes on it? 8 THE WITNESS: I do. I understand that. That 9 is one scenario. 10 THE COURT: Do you understand that could be a 11 scenario? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Then don't sit there and say it 14 still doesn't make sense to you. That is certainly 15 a scenario that, to anybody, ought to make sense. 16 THE WITNESS: You are right. 17 THE COURT: Then don't act like an idiot. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Let me ask you this, Mr. Dandar. When you got 20 this first $500,000 check, did you consider any 21 implication -- 22 THE COURT: I apologize for that. That was 23 uncalled for. But, honestly, it is just unreal, 24 some of the things you say. Like it just doesn't 25 make sense to you. It would have to make sense to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 322 1 anybody in this room, and it should make sense to 2 you. 3 THE WITNESS: Judge, it does make sense to me 4 on the tax aspect. 5 THE COURT: Well, that is an explanation. That 6 is an explanation that any lawyer should have been 7 able to come to. 8 THE WITNESS: Judge, I previously testified 9 about this, and maybe it is just the lateness of the 10 day -- 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: -- but he did talk about -- not 13 just talk about, he broke down and cried about -- 14 the fact that he hadn't paid taxes on money and he 15 was worried that he would be prosecuted. He said it 16 to me. He said it to some other people that I know 17 of, Peter Alexander and Patricia Greenway and Stacy 18 Brooks and Jesse Prince. And that was certainly a 19 big concern of his. 20 THE COURT: When did he tell you that? 21 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- 22 THE COURT: Was it before or after you got the 23 last check? 24 THE WITNESS: Oh, this would have been before 25 the last check. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 323 1 THE COURT: And that didn't play a part in your 2 mind when he's talking about he -- he -- he wanting 3 to -- I mean, he's told you about the tax problems, 4 upset about the tax problems. He's telling you that 5 the "Fat Man" will give you money if, in fact, you 6 can stop the Internet saying ugly things about him, 7 Bob Minton. And you still couldn't put that 8 together? 9 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't put it together. 10 I -- as I'm sitting here and you're asking me these 11 questions it is becoming very clear. But, you know, 12 I might be naive, Judge, but I don't -- I'm not a 13 liar. 14 THE COURT: I don't know that is a fact and I 15 don't know that is the truth. I'm not suggesting 16 that it is or it isn't because, you know, I -- I 17 have to analyze this when this is all over. I know 18 what Mr. Minton has said and I know what you said. 19 I'm just simply trying to see everything it is 20 you have to say about it, just as I did when 21 Mr. Minton was up here and I asked him all of the 22 questions. I'm trying to see that I haven't 23 overlooked something. 24 These are pretty serious accusations. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, they are. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 324 1 THE COURT: And, you know, it just seems as if 2 these things kind of add up, a lawyer would kind of 3 put these things together and say, "Whoops, I bet 4 this comes from Bob and Bob doesn't want to tell me 5 that." 6 But it was still your testimony that never 7 occurred to you? 8 THE WITNESS: No. Never occurred to me because 9 all during this time period I'm under tremendous 10 pressure and I'm trusting Bob Minton. Now I find 11 out not only did he lie to me, but he lied to his 12 own lawyer, John Merrett now. And I find that 13 incredible. 14 THE COURT: Of course, Mr. Minton's testimony 15 on the same -- think of this, it didn't -- you went 16 up to get money from him, that is why you were 17 there. The reason why you are using this code was 18 so Dr. Garko, who you haven't paid, wouldn't know 19 you were getting money. Now, that is the other side 20 of this. 21 And on the other side then, I have your 22 testimony -- and I'm putting this all in a 23 nutshell -- is that, geez, I didn't have a clue, I 24 didn't know, he was asking me -- you see what I'm 25 saying? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 325 1 That is why I said, in the final analysis, a 2 lot of this stuff you put into evidence, a lot of 3 this hoopla, boils down to credibility. Just that 4 simple. Just that simple. Who says what. And what 5 is to be believed. 6 But you do understand that you are, indeed, 7 naive if what you are telling me is true? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: You are one of the most naive 10 lawyers I have ever met since 1971 to 2002, that is 11 31 years of being a lawyer, IRS agent or no. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Mr. Dandar, let me ask you this. Was there ever 14 any -- did Mr. Minton ever have to testify -- and I guess 15 the answer is obvious, but was there ever any testimony or 16 concern regarding Fifth Amendment before you got the first 17 $500,000 anonymous check? 18 A Mmm -- 19 THE COURT: I don't know if he understood that 20 but I didn't understand it. Would you ask it again? 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Was Mr. Minton questioned in any way, prior to 23 your first $500,000 UBS check? 24 A Well, he was questioned on money, in '98, in 25 Boston. And then he answered all of the questions. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 326 1 And I do not believe he pled the Fifth Amendment 2 in May of 2000. But when I got the check, it was before his 3 deposition. 4 Q Did that come a lot later? 5 A The pleading of the Fifth Amendment didn't come 6 until Stacy Brooks opened her mouth in August of 2001 about 7 the Swiss bank. And then he started pleading the Fifth 8 Amendment in September and October of 2001. 9 THE COURT: Of course, in truth, up to that 10 point, he never admitted anything about the $500,000 11 check that he announced came from him. 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. He didn't admit it to 13 me. He didn't admit it to anyone. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Now after he took the Fifth Amendment and before 16 you went to New Hampshire in March of 2002, how many times 17 do you recall Mr. Minton either told you or someone gave you 18 information that you were cut off, that Mr. Minton wasn't 19 going to give you any more money? 20 A I think I lost that question. 21 Q How many times did Mr. Minton or somebody relate 22 to you information that you weren't getting any more money 23 from Mr. Minton? 24 A That was in Mr. Merrett's E-Mail of August of 25 2001. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 327 1 Q Were there other instances where you were told or 2 there were -- there was information given to you that you 3 weren't getting any more money from Mr. Minton? 4 A Well, I had a conversation with -- I think I had a 5 conversation with Jesse Prince in 2001. And that was before 6 Merrett's E-Mail, I believe. 7 And then Mr. Minton said, well, he can't -- "I 8 didn't appoint Jesse as my emissary to tell you I'm not 9 giving you any more money. You need to get that from me." 10 Then in February of 2002 I got another visit from 11 Jesse Prince to tell me that, you know, this Internet attack 12 by these critics -- and they were attacking Minton because 13 he cut me off. That was the only thing they were attacking 14 him on. 15 Q Did you tell -- did you ever tell anybody to 16 attack Mr. Minton because he had discontinued funding the 17 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 18 A Never. No. 19 Q Did you ever tell Mr. Minton about who you paid or 20 didn't pay as related to the case, whether it be your 21 employees or any experts? 22 A No. No. I don't tell anyone that. 23 Q Is there any way Mr. Minton would have known that 24 Dr. Garko wasn't paid when you and Dr. Garko went up to New 25 Hampshire in 2002? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 328 1 A No. Dr. Garko was paid very handsomely for his 2 work. And Dr. Garko -- I did not tell anyone I wasn't 3 paying Dr. Garko. 4 Q So is there any way Mr. Minton could have worked 5 with you to say, "All right, hide this money from Dr. Garko, 6 we'll just pretend it didn't come from me"? 7 A No, Mr. Minton wasn't involved in my relationships 8 with the people that work for me. 9 Q Now, as far as Mr. Prince talking to law 10 enforcement after -- I guess after March of 2002, did you 11 know that he had gone to another office and talked to, I 12 guess it is, Denis deVlaming's brother before he ever talked 13 to anybody about going to law enforcement surrounding issues 14 with Mr. Minton? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope. 16 And he already testified about that, I believe, in 17 his direct. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Prince has. I don't know 19 whether Mr. Dandar has. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: In light of your redirect, I'm 22 going to allow it. 23 A I didn't know that Jesse Prince went to Denis 24 deVlaming's brother's office. 25 I had a conversation with Lee Strope. And I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 329 1 believe Lee Strope made arrangements, through me, to have 2 Jesse Prince come in and talk to him or another agent. I 3 think Lee Strope -- as I remember now, he was going to south 4 Florida to arrest somebody. And either he could or could 5 not be there. So I'm not sure how that worked out. But it 6 was a Thursday afternoon or something with Jesse, I think. 7 I don't remember too well. 8 THE COURT: Is it not in Mr. Prince's 9 affidavit? 10 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 11 THE COURT: What period of time are you talking 12 about? From the time that Mr. Prince met him at the 13 restaurant until he filed his affidavit, did -- 14 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, I'm just talking 15 about -- to explain the question, it's my 16 understanding, I think the innuendo, was that 17 Mr. Dandar got Mr. Prince to go to law enforcement 18 to put pressure on Mr. Minton. 19 MR. WEINBERG: He just testified he arranged 20 for Mr. Prince to see Agent Strope. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I talked to Agent Strope. 22 But I'm saying Agent Strope, I believe -- 23 THE COURT: Counsel, please. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 330 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Well, let me ask you the question then. Did you 3 ask Mr. Prince to talk to law enforcement about the issues 4 surrounding Mr. Minton in an effort to put pressure on 5 anybody? 6 A No. I mean, if a crime is being committed, which 7 I believed 1000 percent it has, you need to report that. 8 I'm a victim of this crime. Mr. Minton is a victim of this 9 crime. And my client is a victim of this crime. 10 And this needs to be reported. You can't sit back 11 and not do anything about it. It has nothing to do with 12 putting pressure on somebody. Talking about pressure, we'll 13 talk about the pressure on Mr. Minton by Mr. Rosen and 14 Mr. Rinder. 15 Q Did you ever ask Jesse Prince to tamper with 16 Mr. Minton as a witness? 17 A No. No. I found out about that after the fact. 18 And that wasn't tampering. 19 Q Have you ever done anything regarding law 20 enforcement that in any way was intended to do anything but 21 help Mr. Minton? 22 A Right. I believe Mr. Minton is a victim. And 23 that is what I'm trying to do is help Mr. Minton, believe it 24 or not, after all these salacious things he said. But he's 25 a victim and he's acting as a victim. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 331 1 Q Now, Mr. Weinberg talked to you about what he 2 certainly suggested was your ease with the use of the term 3 "extortion." What do you understand extortion to be? 4 A Extortion is placing -- through coercion or 5 duress, getting someone to do something they don't want to 6 do. 7 Q And you have had an opportunity to look at, I 8 guess, Mr. Jonas' notes and Mr. Rosen's notes and 9 Ms. Yingling's notes from the March of 2002 meetings in New 10 York and I guess elsewhere. 11 What is it about those notes that convinces you 12 that extortion was taking place? 13 THE COURT: Do you think you could maybe save 14 it for closing argument? Or you really want to 15 testify about it here? It is up to you. 16 MR. LIROT: I think I can save it, Judge. 17 THE COURT: All right. I mean, that is one of 18 your allegations. I presume there is evidence been 19 admitted that you believe supports your allegation. 20 The other side obviously indicates it believes there 21 has been no evidence submitted that supports your 22 allegation. Consequently, that is what closing 23 arguments are for. 24 MR. LIROT: One of the things that 25 Mr. Weinberg -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 332 1 THE COURT: But I don't -- 2 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 3 THE COURT: That is obviously an important part 4 of what you said. If you think you need to get it 5 out in this record, I don't want to cut you off, so 6 it is really up to you. 7 MR. LIROT: Well, I guess, Judge, just to ask 8 Mr. Dandar the question -- 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Did you sincerely believe that extortion and 11 threats had been made to Mr. Minton? 12 A Absolutely. Mmm, Mr. Minton's testimony and 13 Ms. Brooks' testimony completely contradict the notes of 14 their own attorney. 15 In the letter, Mr. Jonas -- Mr. Jonas specifically 16 said that Mr. Minton -- it was demanded of him to get the 17 McPherson case dismissed. And he has absolutely no way of 18 getting that to happen. 19 So they were making a demand on him that he did 20 not have the power to do. And the threat was if you don't 21 do it, then there is $35 million trebled under the RICO 22 statute coming down on you, there is a 23 100-or-so-million-dollar Armstrong suit. And, by the way, 24 here it is, and they served him. 25 And that list of Ms. Yingling's is a tremendous Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 333 1 list of what the pressure that they had placed on him, not 2 only for this case but for the Wollersheim case. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, my objection is this 4 is just argument. 5 THE COURT: I think it is. I think that is 6 true. 7 MR. LIROT: All right -- 8 THE COURT: I mean, I think this is all in 9 evidence. And I think now you need to take that 10 evidence and I think you can close and suggest -- I 11 mean, I think now we're having closing argument from 12 a witness, which is what I thought but I didn't want 13 to -- 14 MR. LIROT: I'll move along. 15 THE COURT: -- I was fearful that perhaps I was 16 interfering with your ability to put your evidence 17 on. But I don't think -- this -- this is an 18 argument. 19 MR. LIROT: I appreciate you allowing me to 20 explore it. 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Mr. Weinberg submitted a transcript from the case 24 of Baker versus Alderman, who I guess was the tax appraiser 25 in Hillsborough County? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 334 1 A Right. Mr. Baker used to work for the predecessor 2 tax assessor. 3 THE COURT: How is that related to -- I still 4 don't understand how that is related. 5 THE WITNESS: Well -- 6 MR. LIROT: I think I can comment on that, 7 Judge. Allegation has been made if you have been 8 sanctioned before, that is relevant to, I guess, 9 apparently support the suggestion that you should be 10 sanctioned again. And what I want -- well, I'll ask 11 the question. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Why were you sanctioned? What is the 14 Rooker-Feldman doctrine? 15 A That is why I was sanctioned. Rooker-Feldman said 16 if you start out in state court, you have to stay there and 17 finish it. 18 His boss sued him, Mr. Baker, in state court, and 19 dismissed the case. And then we said, "Well, we're not 20 going -- we're not going to stay in state court, we want to 21 be in federal court. So we filed it in federal court. And 22 Judge Kovachevich said had I argued that this was a novel 23 theory that I had, I would not have been sanctioned. But I 24 argued it wasn't novel, it was right pursuant to the law. 25 And she said, "No, your argument I don't agree with," and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 335 1 then I got sanctioned. 2 Q Well, was the issue of sanctions based on the fact 3 there was no merit to the allegations? Or on a procedural 4 matter? 5 A It was on a procedure matter. Rooker-Feldman. 6 The facts were there -- 7 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. 9 MR. LIROT: All right. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Another issue brought up by Mr. Weinberg was the 12 allegation, I guess in your brother's response in the 13 probate case, and apparently imputing some admission, and I 14 will read the paragraph -- 15 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. 16 MR. LIROT: That was taken care of -- 17 THE COURT: That was taken care of quite well. 18 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you did. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Mr. Dandar, do you have a copy of Exhibit 264, the 21 fifth affidavit of Robert Minton? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Let me draw your attention to Exhibit A. I know 24 you have testified a little bit about this. 25 Do you have any idea where that document -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 336 1 THE COURT: Let me find this. 2 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 3 THE COURT: I have not had a chance to read 4 this so I'm kind of reading it as you-all refer to 5 it. This is Number 264. 6 MR. WEINBERG: It is the Minton fifth 7 affidavit. 8 MR. LIROT: Fifth affidavit with exhibits, 9 Judge. 10 THE COURT: Where are you looking at? 11 MR. LIROT: I'm looking at Exhibit A, which has 12 got -- 13 THE COURT: I have got it now. 14 MR. LIROT: All right. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Now, this has been, I guess, represented to be an 17 E-Mail that apparently was sent to Mr. Minton? 18 A That is what it is represented to be. It doesn't 19 make any sense because there is no E-Mail headers. 20 Q Do you recall -- 21 THE COURT: I have got a curiosity thing here 22 because I'm not very bright when it comes to 23 E-Mails. But don't you do an enclosure with an 24 E-Mail? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 337 1 THE COURT: If you do an enclosure, my 2 recollection, the enclosure comes up as an enclosure 3 without any E-Mail designation at all. 4 MR. WEINBERG: That is right. 5 THE COURT: Because I do that because I want -- 6 I'm working on a document at home. I want to send 7 it here because I'm going to finalize it here. When 8 it prints, my E-Mail says E-Mail and says I have an 9 enclosure. And when I go to my enclosure and I 10 print out the enclosure, there would be nothing on 11 that enclosure to indicate that it was an E-Mail. 12 MR. MOXON: It is just attached like any 13 other -- 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Yes. I don't know much beyond 16 that. But I do know on an E-Mail, an attachment to 17 an E-Mail is not necessarily designated by E-Mail at 18 the top. 19 THE WITNESS: Judge, this looks more and more 20 like a scanned document because it has all this 21 weird stuff on it like equal signs and numbers. I 22 see the number 20, 9 -- 23 THE COURT: Can we just not assume this is in 24 evidence now and that you-all take all of the time 25 you want to and look at it and argue and whatever Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 338 1 you're going to submit. I haven't even put page 2 limitations on your closing arguments. If you want 3 to explain what you think this is, if you think what 4 it shows, I suppose you can, both sides. 5 MR. LIROT: All right. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Well, if you send Mr. Minton an E-Mail and there 8 are errors in it, would he ask you to resend it? 9 A Shoot, I don't know. I mean, I don't know. I 10 would guess he would ask me to resend something he couldn't 11 read or something like that, like I would. 12 Q And do you -- do you have any recollection of 13 providing, as a courtesy to Mr. Minton, copies of pleadings? 14 THE COURT: We are really going over stuff, 15 because he already testified to this. He can't say 16 for sure. He thinks he may have sent him something. 17 We've heard this. I mean, I cut off the other side 18 on this, so I don't want to hear any more. I'm 19 cutting you off on it. I don't want to hear it 20 anymore. 21 MR. LIROT: I understand. 22 THE COURT: It must be time for me to take a 23 break, I can tell. So we're going to do that. It 24 is five until three. We'll be in recess until 25 quarter after. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 339 1 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken from 2:55 until 3:15 p.m.) 2 THE COURT: You may continue. 3 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Before the break, we were looking at Exhibit 264, 6 the fifth affidavit of Robert Minton. And we were looking 7 at some of the exhibits thereto. 8 Regardless of whether you did or you didn't send 9 Mr. Minton copies of pleadings, would there ever have been 10 an instance where you sent him a pleading to get his 11 approval before it was filed? 12 A No. Never. Never. Never. 13 Q Did you ever send him a pleading to get 14 suggestions on how to modify the language or change any of 15 the aspects that you, in your judgment, felt should be 16 included in the pleading? 17 A Never. I really don't remember sending him 18 things. 19 You know, I'm just looking at this exhibit again. 20 If you look at Exhibit C, this is what I'm talking about. 21 Here apparently he says Jesse Prince sent him C, which is a 22 motion for sanctions about the private investigator of Jesse 23 Prince. At the top, you see the headers. You see the -- 24 some type of computer description followed by the document. 25 So that is what I'm saying on A, that is what is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 340 1 missing from A, there is -- there is nothing on the top 2 of -- at the beginning of A like there is at the beginning 3 of C. 4 Q Actually, if you look at Exhibit C, underneath the 5 headers with the dates and types, I think there is a 6 paragraph that says: "Here is the motion Ken will file." 7 So wouldn't that indicate to you that you didn't send it? 8 A Well, I didn't. And even Mr. Minton says on C I 9 think it was Jesse Prince that sent it to him. 10 You know, and there is nothing wrong with Jesse 11 Prince sending something to Minton or Brooks, Jeff Jacobsen 12 or, you know -- that doesn't -- I don't care. 13 If he puts it out on the Internet for public 14 consumption, I would be upset about that. I mean, 15 Ms. Brooks did that once to me without any approval. 16 Q I think Mr. Minton identifies Exhibit D as a copy 17 of an E-Mail he got from John Merrett. Have you ever seen 18 that E-Mail before? 19 A No. Not at all. I'm surprised he would turn over 20 to Scientology his attorney's E-Mail, but it goes more to 21 what I have been proposing at this hearing. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, Mr. Dandar said he 23 hadn't seen these. So I didn't go through these 24 other ones with him. 25 THE COURT: Right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 341 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Just to sum it up, do you recognize any of the 3 exhibits attached to Exhibit 264? 4 THE COURT: Well, recognize? 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Have you seen them before? 7 A Well, I -- I haven't seen A before. But when it 8 comes to B, there is some similarity there, a lot of 9 similarity. 10 Q From C on, I think we already talked about the 11 fifth amended complaint. 12 A I haven't looked at all these. Mmm, I didn't see 13 E. I didn't see F. I didn't see G. Well, H actually 14 confirms what I just said about Minton not talking to me. 15 But that is between Merrett and Bob and Stacy and I never 16 saw that before. But what is highlighted confirms that 17 Minton is not talking to me. And this is dated -- I don't 18 know when it's dated. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Which one are you on? 20 MR. LIROT: H. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm on H. 22 MR. WEINBERG: It is August 23rd, 2001 -- or 23 August 22, 2001. 24 THE COURT: It is? 25 MR. LIROT: Mine says June 2nd, 2002. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 342 1 MR. WEINBERG: No, that is when it is taken off 2 the hard drive by Mr. Minton. If you go to Page 3, 3 you'll see the E-Mail message from Merrett to Brooks 4 and Minton dated August 22nd, 2 -- 2001. The 2002 5 date is just when Mr. Minton retrieved it for this 6 hearing. 7 THE COURT: I see. 8 MR. LIROT: Judge, obviously to the extent 9 Mr. Dandar hasn't received these -- and they look to 10 be communications between Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and 11 Mr. Merrett -- I certainly would raise a relevance 12 objection. I don't know what relevance those would 13 have in this hearing. 14 THE COURT: I don't, either. But the truth of 15 the matter is I admitted them, they'll stay 16 admitted, and I'll have to sort them out at some 17 time. It is just too big, I will -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: We'll show you in the argument. 19 THE COURT: In the argument, please. 20 A I haven't seen any of the other documents, like I, 21 either. So that is the first time today I'm looking at 22 this. But there is mention of Ursula Caberta in one of 23 those documents. And that is another interesting point of 24 people -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, if Mr. Dandar hadn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 343 1 seen them, and I couldn't ask him about them, he 2 should not be commenting on them. 3 THE COURT: That is true. 4 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 5 THE COURT: If that is an objection, it is -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 7 THE COURT: -- sustained. 8 THE WITNESS: I wasn't commenting -- 9 THE COURT: You know, but there wasn't even a 10 question here. You just started to want to talk 11 about something. 12 THE WITNESS: I know. 13 THE COURT: So that is the objection. And that 14 is sustained. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. 16 THE COURT: Or if that wasn't it, I put a new 17 name on it. 18 MR. WEINBERG: It was an objection. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Mr. Dandar, have you ever had concerns over the 22 use of court reporters in any proceedings related to the 23 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case in, I guess, proceedings 24 out of state? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Beyond the scope, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 344 1 your Honor. 2 THE COURT: I hate to say this but I don't know 3 exactly what this has to do with it so for now I'll 4 overrule your objection. 5 A Well, when my -- 6 THE COURT: The answer to that is yes, I guess. 7 A Yes. Sorry. My clients' depositions were taken 8 by Mr. Weinberg in December of '99, I believe that is the 9 right date, in Texas, Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson and Lee 10 Skelton and Sam Davis. 11 When we received the transcripts, my client raised 12 some questions. Without telling you what she said, those 13 questions caused me to look at the transcripts and wonder -- 14 and my computer notes and wonder if, in fact, I received all 15 of the transcript or there was some missing. 16 And -- and I had questions about that because 17 there -- something wasn't right, but I couldn't put my 18 finger on how I could prove something wasn't right. 19 And -- and I have used this firm before. But I 20 just discovered that the Atkinson-Baker court reporting firm 21 that Scientology uses for their out-of-state depositions are 22 a Scientology company, owned and operated by well-to-do 23 public Scientologists. And -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: Oh -- 25 A -- I discovered that there is a case that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 345 1 sanctions the use of a Scientology-run and owned company by 2 public Scientologists in cases involving the Church of 3 Scientology because of the conflict of interest. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have no idea what 5 he's talking about, but -- what is he saying? I 6 mean, he's got a videotape of a deposition. His 7 client did an errata sheet. 8 THE COURT: If that is an objection, state it, 9 that it didn't seem to be relevant to this 10 proceeding. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, relevance. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. Unless you are 13 specifically talking about some transcript in this 14 hearing you believe is wrong you want to offer some 15 proof of, then I think that is irrelevant for now. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Let me ask you these questions in conclusion. 18 Have you ever asked Stacy Brooks or Bob Minton to 19 perjure themselves or say anything that was untrue in any 20 court proceeding? 21 A Never. Never. 22 Q Have you ever asked anybody to hide any issues 23 about any checks or any money you received from Mr. Minton 24 or from any other source? 25 A Never. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 346 1 Q Have you ever asked anybody to hide any secret 2 agreement or agreement dealing with the bulk of any award 3 from the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Asked and answered. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Beyond the scope. 7 MR. LIROT: I just wanted to end on a nice 8 conclusory point, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Well, you want to ask two or three 10 more questions and conclude it? 11 MR. LIROT: I think I'll conclude it right now. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. LIROT: Thank you. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I have two questions. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Now, you said, in a question -- in a response to a 19 question from Mr. -- from Mr. Lirot, that you had called or 20 talked to Lee Strope, asking him to arrange to meet with 21 Jesse Prince concerning these allegations of extortion, 22 blackmail, RICO. Correct? 23 A Well -- 24 Q Is that yes? Am I right? 25 A The answer is almost yes. There was a call either Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 347 1 from Lee Strope to me, or me to Lee Strope, because Jesse -- 2 something was going on, Jesse was meeting with them and I 3 wanted to make sure Lee Strope was there. 4 Q And can you date that for us? 5 A No. 6 Q Well, it's after April 14th? 7 A Well, yes, it is after April 14th. 8 Q And other than Mr. Strope, did you talk to any 9 other law enforcement officer with regard to these 10 allegations of extortion, blackmail, concerning Mr. Minton 11 and the Church of Scientology? 12 A I answered that before. The answer is yes. 13 Q And what agency is that? 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, asked and answered. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, your Honor -- 16 THE COURT: It wasn't answered. He said he 17 didn't want to answer it. And I still don't know 18 why you need to know the answer to that. He said he 19 doesn't want to answer that because the law 20 enforcement office asked him not to reveal it. 21 You know, the truth of the matter is I can't 22 sustain that. Tell him. 23 A The FBI. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q And is there a particular person there? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 348 1 A There is. But I don't remember -- 2 Q Who is that? 3 A I don't know. I can't recall. 4 Q And when was it? 5 A Well, it was definitely after April 14th. 6 Q Did you meet with them? 7 A For several hours. Yes. 8 Q And just summarize, summarize very quickly, what 9 you told them. 10 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. 11 MR. WEINBERG: All right. Thank you. That is 12 all my questions. 13 THE COURT: All right. Is that all? 14 MR. LIROT: It is, Judge. The only issue that 15 we have -- 16 THE COURT: Does that mean you are done with 17 this witness? 18 MR. LIROT: I am done with this witness. 19 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. You may step down. 20 You may resume your seat. 21 MR. DANDAR: Thank you, your Honor. 22 (Witness excused.) 23 THE COURT: You may call your next witness. 24 MR. LIROT: No additional witnesses, Judge. 25 THE COURT: All right. Any additional Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 349 1 information you wish to present into evidence at 2 this time? 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, at this point, no. But I 4 would like to just give the Court a heads up. We 5 provided a request to produce to the defendants. 6 And the only additional documents that we intend to 7 submit into the record at this time are the unedited 8 video of Jesse Prince that apparently is what has 9 been called the departure meeting where he was 10 apparently videotaped without his knowledge. 11 We wanted the complete overt collection -- 12 THE COURT: Stop just a second. Maybe I -- 13 maybe I interfered with this. But I know that at 14 some point in time I thought there was an objection. 15 Maybe the objection was by Mr. Prince. Maybe the 16 objection was by the lawyer. Maybe everybody was 17 objecting. And they indicated that it was -- he 18 didn't know about it. 19 MR. LIROT: Correct. 20 THE COURT: There was an objection. And I 21 think I said I wouldn't let it in. 22 MR. WEINBERG: That is what you did. 23 THE COURT: So now you want it in? Is that it? 24 MR. LIROT: We would like to review it. I'm 25 just giving you heads up. If there looks like there Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 350 1 might be some information on there, over and above 2 what you saw and excluded, that might be of 3 relevance to the case, we would like be able to 4 supplement the record by that. 5 MR. FUGATE: I have absolutely no objection 6 because I think if you saw it you would see the 7 entire story of what happened from beginning to end. 8 That is fine. We offer it -- 9 MR. DANDAR: No. We just want to review it 10 ourselves. 11 MR. FUGATE: We'll make it 274. 12 MR. LIROT: We don't want to introduce it yet, 13 Judge. 14 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, but we want to play 15 it. 16 THE COURT: He said he wanted it produced and 17 he might admit it after that. You have no objection 18 to this being played or being received? 19 MR. LIROT: We need to review it first, Judge. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 21 THE COURT: Well, look, if it is here -- was it 22 here that it was submitted, then I excluded it. So, 23 therefore, it is one of these things in evidence but 24 it is not in evidence? 25 MR. WEINBERG: We were -- we were in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 351 1 process -- when you -- we were playing a part -- we 2 were going to play the beginning and the end 3 addressing some issues of Mr. Prince. 4 But we will file it as an exhibit. And they 5 can have a copy of it. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, we already objected to it. 7 We just want to be able to review it. 8 THE COURT: I think counsel misspoke when he 9 said he might want to introduce it because he maybe 10 forgot there was an objection to it to keep it out. 11 They want it produced. You have no objection to 12 producing it, obviously. 13 MR. FUGATE: No. We will actually offer it as 14 an exhibit in the rebuttal case. So we have no 15 objection. 16 THE COURT: Well, they want a copy. So get 17 them a copy of it. Then you can offer it again in 18 the rebuttal case. And they will have a chance to 19 see it. And maybe they won't object to it. And if 20 they do object to it, I can reconsider. 21 But they need -- you know, based on what 22 Mr. Prince said, which he didn't know he was being 23 videotaped, they have not seen it -- they need to 24 see it. So get that to them -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Sure. Sure. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 352 1 THE COURT: -- as soon as you can. But if that 2 is admitted, it will be admitted without objection 3 as to however it is that they move to admit it, or 4 on -- on rebuttal case, or on yours or by joint 5 exhibit. 6 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. We also requested the 7 complete overt data collection on Ken Dandar. 8 We also ask for -- 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't know what you're 10 talking about. An overt data -- 11 MR. LIROT: There was a check sheet that 12 Mr. Oliver authenticated as being part of the OSA 13 package on how they conduct investigations on 14 people. And we've actually requested the ODC, overt 15 data collection, on Mr. Dandar, assuming that OSA 16 may have collected the data and the check sheet on 17 him, as part of the records. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. LIROT: We also requested the hat pack. As 20 you recall, Mr. Lieberman submitted an objection 21 that apparently one of the exhibits we wanted to get 22 into the record was a fabrication or a fraud of some 23 sort. We've asked for the -- I guess a copy of the 24 Guardian's Office hat pack that isn't a fabrication. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: Actually -- actually, he Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 353 1 testified -- Mr. Oliver testified he never saw it 2 until after he was out of the Church, so it wasn't 3 part of his hat pack, by his own testimony, and that 4 is the reason the Court had excluded it. 5 THE COURT: I don't remember. I'm sorry, they 6 asked something be produced. If they have an 7 objection to it, I'll resolve it, but not right now. 8 MR. FUGATE: We just got it so -- 9 THE COURT: I'll try to deal with it before the 10 end of the hearing. If not, we'll deal with it, you 11 know, at some point in time. And if it needs to be 12 added to a list of exhibits, why, I'll do that. 13 MR. WEINBERG: We had some outstanding requests 14 we made on them that we never received. 15 For example, calendars with regard -- 16 THE COURT: Would you all please try to deal 17 with those in the usual fashion, which is notice to 18 produce, either do that, or file an objection. If 19 you want to have a hearing, have a hearing. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 21 MR. LIROT: That wasn't -- 22 MR. DANDAR: We produced it. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I wasn't bringing it up as a 24 discovery problem. I just wanted to let the Court 25 know we would probably supplement the record with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 354 1 that once it is produced. 2 MR. WEINBERG: So subject to that -- 3 THE COURT: Subject to that, you are done? 4 MR. LIROT: Correct. 5 ______________________________________ 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 355 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 17th day of July, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500