1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 1 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Wally Pope. 17 DATE: July 17, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 MR. ANTHONY BATTAGLIA 21 MR. STEPHEN J. WEIN Battaglia, Ross, Dicus & Wein, P.A. 22 980 Tyrone Boulevard St. Petersburg, Florida 33710 23 Counsel for Robert Minton. 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 3 1 THE COURT: You may begin your rebuttal. 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would call Wally 3 Pope. 4 While I'm doing that, could I give the Court 5 what will be -- I think our next exhibit is 274. 6 Correct? 7 THE CLERK: Yes. 8 THE COURT: I think it is past that, isn't it? 9 MR. FUGATE: 273, I think, was the letter. And 10 this is -- that is a copy. I have given the 11 original to the clerk. 12 And, very quickly, while Mr. Pope is on the 13 way, I had indicated to your Honor at side bar the 14 other day that we had two subpoenas, based on 15 Mr. Prince's testimony, served on FDLE, one for 16 Agent Strope. And I was told that Agent Strope 17 would not be available, he was unavailable until the 18 22nd. So I asked then for a second subpoena to be 19 issued, which was for custodian of records for any 20 reports, notes, et cetera for any meetings in April, 21 May or June between Lee Strope and Mr. Prince. 22 And what is our Exhibit Number 274 is the 23 letter which Mr. Dandar said he would agree to, he 24 said whether or not it had any relevancy, we could 25 submit it. It is custodian of records, who happens Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 4 1 to be Mr. Strope's supervisor. He did a check, he 2 didn't find anything. 3 You gave us permission to do a deposition of 4 Mr. Strope, obviously with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot. 5 And we'll supplement the record with that 6 deposition, with the Court's permission. 7 THE COURT: What I really said is I would 8 accept a simple affidavit from Mr. Strope either 9 that he did or he did not -- I really don't want a 10 huge, long deposition. 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, I would hope it wouldn't be 12 a huge, long one. But I don't know -- I think, in 13 fairness to both sides, probably a deposition would 14 be -- where both sides can ask the questions would 15 be -- 16 THE COURT: Well, the deal is for all I know 17 FDLE is doing an investigation. If they are doing 18 an investigation, they are not going to want to tell 19 you about it, and they don't really have to. The 20 only relevance -- maybe they are not doing an 21 investigation, in which case they'll tell you 22 anything. 23 Really, the only relevance to this hearing is 24 whether or not Mr. Prince told us the truth when he 25 said he went and saw Agent Strope, or whether he Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 5 1 didn't. So, really, a simple affidavit will do. 2 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge. Well, I can 3 tell you if they were doing an investigation, they 4 would have told me they wouldn't respond to the 5 subpoena. So I pretty much know what the answer to 6 that is. But that is the point. We'll do Agent 7 Strope -- 8 THE COURT: I don't want you to tell Agent 9 Strope I agreed to a deposition. I did not agree to 10 a deposition because, quite frankly, the only thing 11 I would suggest has any bearing on this case is a 12 very simple -- I don't want Agent Strope to think I 13 want to tie him up in a deposition for any length of 14 time for this hearing, because I don't. 15 MR. FUGATE: I think I'll communicate to him 16 exactly what was said. And counsel can do likewise. 17 THE COURT: It can be a letter. It could be 18 the affidavit -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: The real issue is whether or not 20 Agent Strope told Mr. Prince to go deliver a 21 message, if you remember. 22 THE COURT: That can be another part of it. 23 But part of it is, I presume, whether or not -- I 24 mean, according to this -- well, I haven't read it, 25 but based on what Mr. Fugate said the other day, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 6 1 they weren't able to uncover anything to suggest he 2 was there that would also be relevant from Agent 3 Strope. 4 Would you raise your right hand. 5 (Witness sworn.) 6 THE WITNESS: I do. 7 THE COURT: We are still here, Mr. Pope. 8 THE WITNESS: I noted. 9 THE COURT: Now, if you are involved in this 10 hearing before Judge Baird in Clearwater, take note. 11 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 12 ______________________________________ 13 WALLY POPE, 14 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 15 and testified as follows: 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Would you state your name for the record, 19 Mr. Pope? 20 A Wally Pope. 21 Q And how are you occupied? I know this is stupid 22 because everybody knows you. 23 A I'm a lawyer. 24 Q How long have you been a lawyer practicing -- 25 admitted to the Florida Bar in good standing here? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 7 1 A Thirty-two years. 2 Q And in conjunction with your occupation, are you 3 presently representing the Church of Scientology and various 4 religious subdivisions thereof, corporations? 5 A Yes, I am. 6 Q Can you tell us in what cases so we have that for 7 the record? 8 A I was representing the Church as a plaintiff in 9 the injunction case against Mr. Minton and the LMT that 10 Judge Penick handled, that technically is still pending 11 before Judge Penick although it is inactive. 12 I was representing the Church in the -- in some 13 probate matters regarding the estate before Judge Greer. 14 And I was representing the Church and now a 15 related entity called RTC, Religious Technology Center, I 16 think it is, before Judge Baird in what we call the breach 17 of contract cases. 18 Q Okay. Now, sir -- 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I interrupt you-all far 20 too much. But there was at one time a suit that 21 apparently came from Texas locally before Judge 22 Boyer. Has that not been consolidated before Judge 23 Baird? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Is that a separate suit? Or is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 8 1 that part -- 2 THE WITNESS: That is an action on a final 3 judgment from a Texas Federal District Court. 4 THE COURT: So that supports, sort of, the 5 fourth matter? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, it is. 7 THE COURT: But that is also before Judge Baird 8 at the moment? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 10 THE COURT: All right, thank you. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Now, sir -- 13 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness and 14 give him -- 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 MR. FUGATE: -- a copy of what has been marked 17 and admitted into evidence as our 273, which is the 18 July 2nd letter? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q I ask you if you will take a moment to look at 22 Exhibit 273, a July 2, 2002 letter, ask you if you can 23 identify that when you have had an opportunity to look at 24 it. 25 A This is a letter that I received a copy of that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 9 1 was sent by Mr. Kennan Dandar to the Florida Bar, actually 2 it is addressed to Tampa, but to Jan Wichrowski, who is in 3 the Orlando disciplinary office. 4 Q And by way of -- 5 THE COURT: Is this the person -- sorry. Is 6 this the person assigned to this case, whoever it 7 is? 8 THE WITNESS: The case was originally in Tampa 9 but it was sent over to the Orlando office for 10 reasons that I don't understand. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Well, sir, let me just ask you some questions, if 13 I may, about the allegations in the letter, and then I'm 14 going to go through and try to go back to some issues that 15 were raised either by the Court or Mr. Dandar earlier today. 16 First of all, if you flip over to Page 2, in the 17 second paragraph you see that basically the allegation is 18 made that extortion has taken place. And throughout the 19 letter I think you would have to -- would you say that it is 20 accusing you, among others, of extorting and blackmailing 21 Mr. Minton? 22 A That is how I read the letter. 23 Q All right. Have you extorted or blackmailed or 24 done anything illegal or unethical, in your mind, to Robert 25 Minton? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 10 1 A No. 2 Q Have you ever met Robert Minton before? 3 A Only in the courtroom. I cross-examined 4 Mr. Minton in the injunction case. I prosecuted him for 5 indirect criminal contempt in the injunction case. I have 6 said hello to him, as we passed in court proceedings. And 7 that is it. 8 Q Now, you see in the last paragraph -- last two 9 sentences of that same paragraph, an allegation that you 10 failed to inform the Florida Bar of the details of the 11 secret agreement. Do you see that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And is there a secret agreement between you or, to 14 your knowledge, any of the other lawyers and Mr. Minton 15 involving any litigation that you are involved with and/or 16 the Flag wrongful death case here? 17 A I know of no such agreement. 18 Q Sir, in terms of whether or not an extortion or a 19 blackmail has taken place, can you tell us if you have any 20 knowledge of when a settlement negotiation began with 21 Mr. Minton and his counsel? 22 A Yes. I have firsthand knowledge of that. 23 Q Can you tell the Court when that was, sir? 24 A The first contact that I had about settlement was 25 in the first week of February of this year, 2002. And it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 11 1 came about during a telephone conversation that I had with 2 Bruce Howie who had come into the breach case to represent 3 Mr. Minton. He had taken over from where Mr. John Merrett 4 had left off. 5 We had a telephone conversation because I was in 6 the process of adding Mr. Minton in as a personal defendant, 7 claiming that he had -- he had, in fact, induced the breach 8 of contract in this case and that he should be responsible 9 for it. It was a tortious interference claim. 10 And so I had this conversation with Mr. Howie. 11 And he -- 12 Q That you were planning on adding Mr. Minton? 13 A Yes. We were talking about some of the mechanics 14 of it. And it was -- frankly, I had not been able to talk 15 about anything rationally with Mr. Merrett. What I got -- 16 what I got from Mr. Minton and Mr. Merrett was just mindless 17 belligerence, really. 18 It was when Mr. Howie came into the case I finally 19 had a lawyer I could talk to. So we talked. 20 And he said to me in this conversation that he had 21 been given the task of extricating Mr. Minton from the mess 22 he was in, and that he recognized that he was just in a 23 terrible mess, and he was tired of it, he wanted out. He 24 wanted to know if we could talk about -- sit down and meet 25 and talk about settling this particular case. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 12 1 And I -- I said I was always in favor of 2 settlement and would report that development to the client. 3 He also, as I recall, said to me he felt 4 Mr. Minton had gotten -- had wandered too far into the 5 swamp, as he put it. 6 And the reason that I remember this conversation 7 is that I was shocked, because up until that point there 8 really had been only mindless belligerence. There was never 9 any talk trying to resolve anything in a civilized way at 10 all. So this -- this was really a breath of fresh air. 11 So I reported it to the client immediately. And I 12 reported it to my co-counsel in the case, Samuel Rosen from 13 the Paul Weiss firm in New York. 14 And as a consequence, the client said, "Yes, we 15 would always be interested in trying to resolve amicably 16 this dispute. We're tired of it, too." 17 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I don't want to breach 18 any attorney-client privilege here, but I think 19 that, in terms of putting the record straight, will 20 not do that, and I don't intend to go into any other 21 attorney-client conversations. I just want to 22 advise the Court of that. 23 THE COURT: All right. Your client is Church 24 of Scientology Flag Service Organization? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 13 1 THE COURT: Or one of the other -- 2 THE WITNESS: It is Flag. It is Flag in the 3 breach case, although that case that was before 4 Judge Boyer, the plaintiff there is RTC. 5 THE COURT: But at the moment you are talking 6 about -- 7 THE WITNESS: I'm talking about Flag. 8 THE COURT: Mr. Howie was coming to you about 9 the breach of contract case pending before Judge 10 Baird where Flag was the plaintiff? 11 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 A So I -- as a consequence of that initial exchange, 14 I was told -- or I contacted Mr. Rosen. And Mr. Rosen and I 15 and Bruce Howie had a three-way telephone conversation 16 between Florida and New York where we were located. 17 And -- and the message we gave to him was we're 18 interested in talking but we want to talk about resolving 19 everything. You know, we want out of this thing. We want 20 to get it over with. 21 And so Mr. Minton apparently wanted to try and 22 meet in late February, around the 20th or so, but for one 23 reason or another everybody couldn't get in the right place 24 at that time. And the meeting didn't take place until late 25 March. And I don't remember the -- it might have been the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 14 1 29th or 30th or thereabouts. 2 And the meeting took place, as I understand it, in 3 the northeast. It was either in New York or Boston, and I 4 don't remember which. I did not participate in that meeting 5 and I have never participated in any of the meetings with 6 Mr. Minton, even though a number of them were held at my 7 office. I simply made my facility available as a conference 8 room as a convenient meeting place. So -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor -- 10 A So -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. 12 A So that is the long and the short of how the -- 13 the settlement discussions between Mr. Minton and Flag 14 started. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q A phone call from Mr. Howie to you, is that 17 correct? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 Q And about how long after that first week of 20 February phone call was the conference call between you and 21 Mr. Howie and Mr. Rosen? 22 A It was sometime during the next week. 23 Q And it's your recollection then there was a 24 meeting set for near the end of February? 25 A No. That was a suggestion by Mr. Minton. And Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 15 1 then I -- I sort of was out of it at that point. I had 2 initiated the contact, and I believe Mr. Rosen and Mr. Howie 3 had some further discussions in which I did not participate. 4 Q And then Mr. Jonas, as far as you know, got 5 involved. And Mr. Howie was still back here in Florida? 6 A Correct. I don't believe Mr. Howie participated 7 in the meeting up in the northeast, but Mr. Minton's Boston 8 counsel did, whom I do not know. 9 Q Now, if you turn to -- it's the fourth page -- I'm 10 sorry -- and beginning the second paragraph, if you'll read 11 that to yourself about tortious interference. I have got a 12 question about that. 13 A Yes. 14 Q Do you have any idea what the reference to 15 tortious interference by you for the Church of Scientology 16 is? 17 A Not -- not really. 18 Q Well, can you tell us, if you go down to the next 19 paragraph which is somewhere we're going to get to, you see 20 here, "In front of Magistrate Jenkins in Federal Court," can 21 you just tell us your recollection of what happened there? 22 A All right. There was a separate lawsuit in the 23 state of Texas in the U.S. District Court by RTC, a separate 24 corporation. It was a jury trial. I did not participate in 25 it in any form. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 16 1 It resulted in a jury verdict for damages against 2 the estate for breach of contract. It was -- it was the 3 same contract that Flag was litigating before Judge Baird 4 except that RTC was the third-party beneficiary of the 5 contract and it filed a separate suit in the state of Texas. 6 It went fairly quickly. It resulted in a jury 7 verdict that I think is reduced to final judgment in the 8 amount of about $308,000 for RTC. 9 Then the judge awarded post-trial attorney fees 10 because the contract had that provision in it. And awarded 11 fees in favor of RTC and against the estate. And also 12 awarded about $96,000 or $98,000 in fees against the two 13 Dandar brothers for vexatious litigation under a federal 14 statute. 15 Those have all been reduced to final judgment and 16 they are in the name of RTC. 17 I was asked to domesticate the first judgment that 18 came out in the amount of $308,000. I did it in two ways. 19 You can -- when you are dealing with a federal court 20 judgment, there are two ways you can actually proceed on 21 dual tracks. 22 You can register the judgment with the federal 23 district court and get writs and -- and get discovery there. 24 And you can also file an independent action on it in the 25 Florida state court. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 17 1 Or the more expeditious way, you can proceed under 2 the Uniform Enforcement of Foreign Judgments Act, which is 3 55.505, .509, in there. 4 So we decided to register the judgment under the 5 Foreign Enforcement of Judgments Act (sic) in Florida and to 6 register it in federal court. So that is what I did. And 7 that took place in probably late April. 8 I -- I filed -- I was asking for discovery in the 9 federal court, and I was asking for writs of garnishment 10 against the Dandar bank accounts to try to collect on the 11 judgment on the basis that it appeared, from what had been 12 said in proceedings, that the Dandars were holding money 13 that belonged to the estate and it would be available to 14 satisfy the judgment. 15 So I proceeded down that line. And we had a 16 hearing on May 9 before Judge Jenkins. And I think the 17 timing here is interesting because your order on discovery 18 was not entered until May 27th. 19 So on May 9th I go over there. And on the morning 20 of the hearing the Dandars served me with a defensive 21 memorandum, pointing out the existence of a statute, Section 22 1963 -- 28 USC, Section 1963, which is a federal statute 23 that I, frankly, had completely forgotten about it. I had 24 encountered it one other time in my 32 years of practice. 25 And I, frankly, had forgotten about it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 18 1 But the minute they served that paper on me five 2 minutes before the hearing, I realized it was a problem. 3 And my problem was that statute says that when you get a 4 federal judgment in another district like in Texas, and you 5 try to register it in another district like Tampa, if there 6 is an appeal pending, even though there is no bond posted, 7 you can't -- you can't register it. You can't get a writ of 8 execution on it. And you can't get a writ of garnishment on 9 it. 10 So the minute that they served that on me and I 11 realized that that was the case, I withdrew my motions for 12 writs of garnishment. I just withdrew them on the record. 13 But -- Judge Jenkins never got to that. But I told her I 14 was entitled to discovery under Rule 69 in aid of execution. 15 She later -- here just recently -- it was a tough 16 question -- she finally concluded that the particular issue 17 had never been decided by any court in the United States, 18 and decided that until we perfected the judgment under 19 Florida procedure, I couldn't get discovery in execution. 20 We were on the verge of perfecting the judgment 21 before Judge Baird. And that issue I just submitted my last 22 memorandum to him on yesterday and both sides had to submit 23 simultaneous. And if my law is right, Judge Baird will 24 enter an order saying this is a valid judgment in the state 25 of Florida. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 19 1 So that -- so the Judge Jenkins thing was an 2 effort to collect on a judgment for RTC. Not for Flag but 3 for RTC. 4 Q In your experience, would that be any kind of 5 tortious interference with anything? 6 A I think that a judgment creditor is entitled to go 7 try to collect the judgment wherever. I mean, the legal 8 thing has run its course. 9 Now, let me say this. They did take an appeal. 10 But they didn't bond it off. And the funny peculiar twist 11 of the federal law is that judgment is final in Texas and it 12 is fine, execute on it in Texas. You just can't execute on 13 it in any other district. But you can convert it to Florida 14 judgment under the uniform thing, and once it is done, you 15 can execute on it in Florida. And the only way they can 16 stop you is put up a bond under 55.509, which is the Uniform 17 Enforcement of Foreign Judgment Act. 18 Q If a bond were posted, would part of the 19 requirement of the bond be it be served on the lawyers on 20 the other side? 21 A Generally, yes. I mean, I have not seen any bond 22 so far. But we're dealing here with three judgments. One 23 for 308,000, one for 200-something, and one against the 24 Dandars personally for 98-something. And I have not seen a 25 bond in any of those cases. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 20 1 THE COURT: What is the one for 200-something? 2 THE WITNESS: That is the attorney fee award. 3 There was -- the attorney fee award was split 4 with -- 98,000 against the Dandars and the rest 5 against the estate. 6 THE COURT: And then that was separate and 7 apart from the $300,000 judgment against the estate 8 on the suit? 9 THE WITNESS: Correct. The total amount of the 10 judgments, in round numbers, is about $600,000. I 11 think it is a little less, I can't remember the 12 exact number. So it is -- 13 THE COURT: Out of curiosity, obviously I never 14 dealt in these types of lawsuits. If that lawsuit 15 had to do with the breach of contract by attempting 16 to add these parties and that is the issue pending 17 before Judge Baird, how do you -- how do you get a 18 suit in Texas and then -- get a judgment, and then 19 get another judgment in Clearwater? 20 THE WITNESS: Two different parties. It is RTC 21 was the party in Texas. And Flag is the party here. 22 The contract was with Flag, but it was -- but RTC 23 was the third-party beneficiary of the contract. 24 So they sued on the third-party beneficiary 25 theory in the Texas court for RTC, and on a direct Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 21 1 breach of contract for Flag before Judge Baird. 2 And, in fact, Judge Baird has granted us a 3 summary judgment on liability on the issue, and only 4 thing left to determine is damages. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Is it your understanding there are two separate 7 breaches, one is to Flag and one is to RTC? 8 A Yes. They arise out of the same contract but they 9 are two completely separate things. RTC had its damages and 10 Flag had its damages. 11 Q And other than acknowledging that you had 12 forgotten about 1963, whatever the title is there, do you 13 recall being scolded by the Court and admonished? 14 A Well, Judge Jenkins -- reading between the lines 15 because I tried a few cases before her, was a little irked 16 that she spent so much time on an issue that I withdrew. 17 But I wouldn't say what she did was admonish me. 18 But -- but the defendant filed a motion for 19 sanctions against me, and she denied it. And Rule 11 is 20 kind of a toothy sanctions provision in federal practice. 21 And she denied that motion when she issued her order denying 22 us the discovery, as well. 23 Q And if I understood what you said, when you began 24 the hearing you notified her you were withdrawing the 25 motion? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 22 1 A Absolutely. Right on the front end, that is the 2 first thing out of my mouth. I said I really don't think I 3 can proceed in view of the defense they raised and I told 4 her, frankly, that I had completely forgotten about Section 5 1963, and there it was, staring me in the face. 6 Q Now, let me see here. If you turn to the next 7 page -- 8 THE COURT: What was the date of my order 9 again? He said it and I have forgotten. 10 MR. FUGATE: It is May 27th. 11 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q If you turn to the next page and look at the 14 second paragraph there, would you read that to yourself. 15 And I'm going to ask you some questions about that. 16 MR. FUGATE: Do you have that, Judge? 17 A Is that the one beginning "When I presented the 18 recent filing"? 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q "-- of Mr. Pope's attempt to gain a full 21 accounting." 22 A Yes. Okay. 23 Q Can you tell us, what is the history leading up to 24 the -- the last motion which you filed, and I'm going to ask 25 you to explain what that was, and whether or not you were Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 23 1 aware of the 2d DCA orders and, obviously, the orders of 2 Judge Schaeffer? 3 A We -- we filed a motion before Judge Greer in 4 effect submitting to Judge Greer the materials that had gone 5 to Judge Baird relative to disqualification. And we asked 6 Judge Greer to take action on it. 7 And at the same time, we asked him -- we said 8 there had never been an accounting, that the records showed 9 that there were a couple of million dollars floating around 10 that at one point or another was supposedly the money of the 11 estate, although that has now come into question, and we 12 thought that an accounting was appropriate. 13 Judge Greer enters an order saying, "Well, I'm not 14 going to take any action because the proceedings before 15 Judge Baird are still in progress --" or at least that is 16 what he indicated from the bench, and he denied that, but he 17 said, "I'm going to exercise my authority to order an 18 accounting." 19 So Judge Greer already ordered an accounting. The 20 motion that I filed was a motion asking him to expedite it 21 and to make sure it was complete. 22 And when -- and somewhere in that -- somewhere 23 just before I filed that motion, I received a copy of the 24 May 27 order from this Court. And I said, well, I certainly 25 don't want to run afoul of this court's order, so I put in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 24 1 my request that the accounting should go to the judge, eyes 2 only, in camera, and not be released to us. And I thought 3 that that would be in the spirit of your order and that I 4 was interested in this -- you know, there being an 5 accounting now while -- before the money is all gone and, 6 you know, wherever it is, we don't know what the deal is on 7 the money. But I'm representing a -- judgment creditors who 8 have a claim on this money. So that is -- that is what I 9 was interested in. I was trying to enforce a judgment. 10 So, at any rate, I figured I could harmonize the 11 signature between this Court's order and respect it by 12 saying, please order an accounting, you just take it, Judge 13 Greer, then when the time is right, we can -- we can know 14 what it is. 15 Q Didn't ask to have any information provided to you 16 or your client in that matter? 17 A No. And then -- and then I heard -- after that I 18 heard that Judge Schaeffer was upset about this. So I 19 withdrew it. I just said, I'm not going to get into this, 20 so I withdrew the request. It is withdrawn. 21 Q Well, I hate to ask you this with the judge 22 sitting there. An accounting be done and filed in camera 23 with the Court so that it is available. I mean, we know 24 that. We won't know until the judge releases it, but I 25 mean, to me, that doesn't -- that doesn't disclose the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 25 1 information to us. 2 THE COURT: Did -- the judge's request for an 3 accounting, is it still out there? 4 THE WITNESS: They are still under an order but 5 he gave them fairly long lead time, and I can't tell 6 you when it is due, maybe in June or -- July or 7 August. I can't honestly -- 8 THE COURT: Would an accounting not be a public 9 document? 10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, if -- unless the Court 11 ordered it to be sealed, it would be a public 12 document. But what I did when I filed my motion 13 was, in effect, requested that it be sealed. 14 THE COURT: But -- but you can understand 15 that -- that if the judge's order didn't say it be 16 sealed -- in other words, I have enough on my plate, 17 I hope you understand that, I have got all kinds 18 of -- of just hateful allegations being made by one 19 side against the other. 20 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: They are not the kind of 22 allegations a judge likes to resolve. The judge 23 sits as a party of one trying to figure out which 24 lawyers are lying, which lawyers -- which parties 25 are committing extortion, if any, who suborned Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 26 1 perjury, who committed perjury, right in front of my 2 very eyes as I sit and watch them. Those are not 3 happy days. God only knows what day this is in this 4 hearing, so many I don't -- and I have got somebody 5 telling me, I have these orders, they are -- the 6 Second District is saying it looks like one side is 7 trying to find out how much money the other side has 8 to thwart their ability to bring a lawsuit. And 9 then I get another, guess what, here they are 10 after -- they are trying to do it again. 11 In other words, you do understand that if I 12 gave Mr. Dandar that order as some help to him to -- 13 to protect what the Second District had said and 14 that is that he should have the right to pursue his 15 lawsuit without some thought that perhaps the Church 16 of Scientology would -- would deflate him of money 17 so he couldn't pursue it. 18 THE WITNESS: I understand completely. 19 THE COURT: So when it is brought to my 20 attention that there is more effort being made and I 21 don't have time to read everything and hear 22 everything, you can understand why I might have said 23 I don't want to see it, I don't want to hear it, I 24 don't want it happening, make it go away. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can understand why Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 27 1 you might get a little short in these proceedings, 2 because I have never done anything like this in 32 3 years of law practice. 4 THE COURT: Trust me, I have gotten short. And 5 I hope these lawyers -- on occasion I remember 6 saying I'm sorry that I lost my temper. Overall, 7 Mr. Pope, I think I have done rather well. 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would say. 9 THE COURT: Every day, I -- I usually lose my 10 judicial temper at least once, so -- 11 And, Mr. Pope, whatever we were talking about, 12 the other side of that coin is, of course, I'm 13 having allegations made that -- that a church -- a 14 church that sits in my community and my county -- is 15 trying to undermine a complaint from going to 16 fruition. 17 Sometimes you try to protect both parties, as a 18 judge, and sometimes you try to protect them from 19 themselves. 20 THE WITNESS: I -- I understand. 21 THE COURT: Both sides. 22 THE WITNESS: I have seen judges do that. 23 THE COURT: That is right. So sometimes you 24 say, "Look, I don't know if there is any truth to 25 this or not but I don't want to hear about it." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 28 1 So -- 2 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Mr. Pope, I had a big note to myself which I 6 missed, if you'll go back to the second page of Exhibit 273, 7 which is the July 2nd letter, when you see the word "This is 8 extortion," that second paragraph? 9 A Yes. 10 Q The paragraph -- or the last two sentences down in 11 that same paragraph, if you would read that to yourself. I 12 have got a question and I forgot to ask you about -- there 13 about the Mary Carter agreement. 14 A Okay. 15 Q I think I gave you -- I'm sorry, I asked you to 16 read the wrong one. It is the next paragraph down, it is 17 talking about the Mary Carter agreement. If you would look 18 at that. 19 A Okay. 20 Q I asked you if you knew about any secret 21 agreement. Do you know what this allegation about a Mary 22 Carter agreement is and how that would relate to this? 23 A I honestly don't know of any agreement that 24 existed between Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks and Flag or any 25 other person or company. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 29 1 My understanding was that when Mr. Minton said, 2 through his counsel, "I want to negotiate," they sat down 3 and step number one was -- since we had been stonewalled in 4 a lot of our discovery efforts -- was come clean. This is 5 part of the negotiation process, tell us what is going on. 6 And -- and so he told. And that is why we're 7 here. 8 Q Well, that is why we're here. The allegation by 9 Mr. Dandar was you filed a Bar complaint against him. And I 10 would ask you to look at what I handed up to you for 11 identification as Defendant's Exhibit 275 and ask you if you 12 can identify that? 13 A Is that my letter of April 11? 14 Q Yes, sir. 15 A It's my letter. 16 Q Can you tell us how that came to pass and whether 17 or not -- just tell us what it is and how it came to pass. 18 A I attended this hearing before Judge Baird on 19 April 9, 2002. This was the hearing at which Mr. Minton 20 began the recantation process. In 32 years in this 21 business, I never had been in a situation in which a witness 22 recanted. I had never been in a situation in which there 23 was testimony in court that an attorney had urged the 24 witness to lie under oath. This was shocking news to me. 25 I used to teach the professional responsibility Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 30 1 part of the Bridge The Gap Program. I was on the Board of 2 Governors for four years. I had a grievance committee in 3 this county for three years. So I'm fairly familiar with 4 the rules of professional conduct. And I remembered that 5 there was a provision about reporting the misconduct of an 6 attorney. 7 And so I went back and I got my book out and I -- 8 I found it. It is 4-8.3. And it says: "A lawyer having 9 knowledge that another lawyer has committed a violation of 10 the rules of professional conduct that raises a substantial 11 question as to that lawyer's honesty, trustworthiness or 12 fitness as a lawyer in other respects shall inform the 13 appropriate professional authority." 14 Incidentally, it says the same thing about a 15 lawyer knowing the same kind of information about a judge in 16 the next paragraph. 17 So, I -- it said "shall inform the appropriate 18 professional authority." Well, I still wasn't quite sure 19 what I was supposed to do about this, so I called Susan 20 Bloemendaal, who I believe is the chief branch counsel at 21 the Bar's office in Tampa. And I -- I'd worked with her 22 over the years, sometimes even defending lawyers who were 23 charged with grievances, and knew her. 24 And I explained what I had heard in court. And I 25 said, "Am I obliged under this to report this to the Bar?" Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 31 1 And she told me in no uncertain terms that I was. 2 And that if I didn't, it would be a violation on my part. 3 I had never done this before. I took no pleasure 4 in it. I take no pleasure in it today. It is an onerous 5 thing. But the rule said I had to do it. 6 So I sent her a short letter, without editorial 7 comment, that just said, "Here is the transcript. You 8 figure it out." 9 Q And -- well, it speaks for itself. You didn't 10 lodge a Bar complaint, you followed her advice and -- 11 THE COURT: Counsel, please. 12 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Now, if you go to the next-to-the-last page of the 15 July 2nd letter and you go down to the second-to-the-last 16 paragraph, "Mr. Pope individually and on behalf of his 17 client," do you see that? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Would you read that to yourself. 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you, sir, believe that any of your actions have 22 been to conduct a charade or cause a charade to be played 23 upon the Bar or this or any other court that you have been 24 litigating in in this matter? 25 A I have seen -- the answer is no. And I have seen, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 32 1 over the years, lawyers do some crummy things. But I didn't 2 think anything that I had seen fit within this definition of 3 substantially -- question as to responsible, 4 truthworthiness, et cetera. 5 That is why I did it. I did it because the rule 6 told me I had to, and the disciplinary authority told me. 7 If she said, "No, you don't have to report it," then I would 8 not have done so. 9 Q One last question. Mr. Dandar testified earlier 10 today that -- 11 THE COURT: We're not going to have one person 12 commenting on another person's credibility here, are 13 we? 14 MR. FUGATE: No. I'm going to ask a question, 15 Judge. I think I'm going right down the middle of 16 the road here, Judge. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Mr. Dandar indicated that there was a deposition 20 set for custodian of records for the United Bank of 21 Switzerland, and he indicated that you cancelled that 22 because he believed you had a copy of a $500,000 UBS check? 23 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon did. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Well, or that -- that Mr. Moxon did. Can you tell Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 33 1 the Court what transpired leading up to the deposition and 2 how the deposition got cancelled? 3 A We had served some subpoenas. I think one was -- 4 one might have been in New York. One might have been in 5 Miami. I honestly can't remember. But we served some 6 subpoenas to get these checks. And I got into some extended 7 discussions with in-house lawyers for the U.S. branch of 8 this bank because you always, when you subpoena bank 9 records, you get into discussions with their lawyers. And I 10 got into this discussion with them, and I talked back and 11 forth to them, and they were looking for these checks and 12 looking and looking. And they finally called me up and they 13 said, "We cannot find the check. We have no record of it." 14 And I said, "Is that what your witness is going to 15 say if we have this deposition," which I think was down in 16 Miami? 17 And they said, "Yes." 18 I said, "Well, I'm not going through that useless 19 exercise of flying to Miami for that." So the depositions 20 cancelled. 21 It was after that that I believe we got copies of 22 the check through Mr. Minton. But that happened afterwards. 23 We -- at the time I cancelled those depositions, we did not 24 have copies of those checks. 25 THE COURT: Are we talking about -- you're Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 34 1 talking about "those checks." I thought at that 2 time there was one check and that was the one for 3 $500,000 to the LMT. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, there -- there 5 were two -- two checks in play. One for $250,000 6 and one for $500,000. And I can't honestly remember 7 if my subpoena was directed to both or just one of 8 them. But there were two different sums of money in 9 play. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q And these subpoenas -- 12 THE COURT: I'm really confused now because I 13 thought this was a check to LMT for half a million 14 dollars that Mr. -- 15 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if I can sort this out. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Did you seek the subpoena -- or cause the subpoena 18 to be issued after Mr. Minton had testified in front of 19 Judge Baird on the -- on April 9 in -- 20 A Yes. 21 Q So that the subpoenas went out after Mr. Minton 22 had come and talked about the check. Did you have -- or to 23 your knowledge did Mr. Rosen have any USB (sic) checks -- or 24 United Bank of Switzerland checks -- in any amount at that 25 time? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 35 1 A No. No. Never. We learned about that at his 2 testimony on the 9th. And that is when we decided we would 3 try to get copies of them by subpoena. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, this is a completely 5 different set of subpoenas than the LMT ones that I 6 had asked questions about. 7 THE COURT: Yes, that is what I thought. We're 8 talking about two -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Totally different -- 10 THE COURT: Apples and oranges here. But that 11 is all right. 12 MR. FUGATE: That is all of the questions I 13 have. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Cross-examine? 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And for whatever it is worth, I 17 don't really want to litigate anything involving a 18 Bar grievance, a suggested Bar grievance here. 19 Okay? 20 MR. DANDAR: I don't, either. 21 CROSS-EXAMINATION 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Mr. Pope, when Mr. Howie first called you in 24 February of 2002, isn't it true that Mr. Howie had already 25 made an appearance in the Clearwater case and had filed a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 36 1 motion to dismiss on behalf of Mr. Minton? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Isn't it true, sir, that when Mr. Howie called 4 you, like in any other normal case, he asked, "How much does 5 your client want to settle," because this didn't seem like a 6 big deal to keep incurring attorney fees? 7 A I -- from what I remember of the conversation is a 8 general settlement overture. He may have asked, you know, 9 how much would it take to settle this matter. 10 Q When he asked about settling the matter, he was 11 talking only about the Clearwater case. Correct? 12 A I'm not sure that that is true. I mean, he -- he 13 said -- he made some general statements like, "Mr. Minton 14 has gotten in over his head, he wants out, he -- he's tired 15 of this. He wandered too far into the swamp." 16 So my read on the case was that there was an olive 17 branch being extended to engage in some negotiations, 18 wherever they might lead. 19 Q At that moment, of course, you couldn't make any 20 agreement with Mr. Howie, you had to get a hold of your 21 client. Correct? 22 A Correct. 23 Q And when you got a hold of your client, what 24 happened next was that you and Mr. Rosen got on the phone 25 and talked with Mr. Howie. Is that right? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 37 1 A That is correct. 2 Q And in that conversation, you or Mr. Rosen -- you 3 tell me which one -- told Mr. Howie that the Church isn't 4 interested in settling just the Clearwater case, that the 5 only way the Church would entertain settlement discussions 6 if it was a "global settlement"? 7 A I don't recall the -- the statement being in those 8 categorical terms. 9 What I recall is that Mr. Rosen did express the 10 desire that if we were going to talk, we wanted to talk 11 about everything. We wanted to talk about a complete 12 extrication and resolution of all issues that involved 13 Mr. Minton. 14 Q Did Mr. Rosen use the terms -- the term 15 "disengagement" to Mr. Howie? 16 A I don't remember. 17 Q Did Mr. Rosen say to Mr. Howie about any terms of 18 this -- any preconditions before the Church of Scientology 19 would talk about settlement? 20 A I -- I do not remember the attachment of 21 preconditions. I do remember the general thrust of the 22 conversation was that we wanted to -- if we were going to 23 talk, we wanted to talk about everything. 24 Q And when is the first time you found out that 25 there was a meeting on March 28 and 29 in New York City? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 38 1 A Probably -- I may have learned that it was 2 scheduled -- can't remember -- probably shortly after the 3 meeting I learned that it had taken place. 4 Q Okay. I'm not getting into -- I'm not going to 5 attempt to do attorney-client communication. But let me ask 6 you this. 7 Did you -- were you informed as to all of the 8 demands made by the Church of Scientology to Mr. Minton in 9 the meeting on March 28 and 29? 10 A I was not informed of the details of the 11 negotiations between the parties. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: And, obviously, you weren't 14 present. 15 THE WITNESS: I was not present. I was never 16 present at any negotiating session with Mr. Minton. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q However, in Clearwater, following that New York 19 meeting, the Church of Scientology used your offices on 20 Saturday, April 6, and Sunday, April 7, is that right? 21 A I don't remember the dates. I made my office 22 available every time the client requested it. 23 Q And when is the first time you found out that 24 Mr. Minton had stated that I had suborned perjury of him in 25 his deposition? When is the first time you heard that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 39 1 A I don't know if -- it seems like Mr. Minton's 2 deposition was taken -- 3 Q The next day on April 8. 4 A And I did not attend that. And I don't know -- I 5 frankly don't know if he said that in his deposition or if 6 he said it the first time in the courtroom. The first -- 7 the first -- I just don't remember. It was one of those 8 days, probably. 9 Q Did you participate in the reviewing or drafting 10 of the motion to disqualify me that Mr. Rosen handed to my 11 brother at the end of Mr. Minton's deposition on April 8 12 with the hearing set for April 9? 13 A I think I drafted it. 14 Q Isn't it true, sir, that in that motion you did 15 not mention one fact to support your motion, simply that 16 there has been a violation of the Florida Bar rules? 17 A I think it was a bare-bones motion, as I recall. 18 Q So no facts were alleged, correct? 19 A The motion would speak for itself. But my 20 recollection is it was a pretty short motion. 21 Q Okay. So how is it -- without, of course, 22 violating work product, how is it that you, as a lawyer in 23 good standing, drafted a motion without knowing what the 24 facts were? 25 A Well, I may well have known what the facts were. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 40 1 I -- it could be that I learned them after that deposition. 2 I honestly can't remember. But I learned them in close 3 proximity to the hearing. It might have been a day before. 4 Q If you had known the facts to support your 5 motion -- a serious motion to disqualify counsel for 6 misconduct, you certainly would have put the facts in your 7 motion before you served it. Isn't that true? 8 A Well, not necessarily. 9 Q Were you trying to do a surprise at the hearing on 10 April 9? 11 A Was I trying to do a surprise? 12 Q Yes. You don't think it is fair to advise me of 13 what grounds you are going to argue the next day at the 14 hearing on a motion to disqualify so you just put a 15 bare-bones motion together? 16 A Well, I -- I put a bare-bones motion together. 17 And whether that was fair to you I'll leave up to the Judge 18 to decide. 19 THE COURT: It's my recollection, quite 20 frankly, that at that deposition -- and I certainly 21 can be corrected -- it was my recollection at that 22 deposition that none -- none of the facts that later 23 came out on the 9th was discussed at all. 24 Matter of fact, I remember reading it thinking, 25 here I expected to read all of what we're going to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 41 1 hear about. And there was nothing there. 2 And so if that is the deposition you're 3 referring to, Mr. Pope, as I said, the record will 4 speak for itself, the deposition will speak for 5 itself. I don't think there was anything in there 6 that discussed any lies, perjury or anything of the 7 sort. Maybe it did. 8 I think the first time I heard anything, read 9 anything, that alleged Mr. Minton speaking of 10 Mr. Dandar and suborning perjury and whatnot was at 11 the first hearing in front of Judge Baird where -- I 12 don't know if it was a contempt hearing or 13 something, contempt sentencing, which would have 14 been April 9. 15 MR. DANDAR: You are absolutely correct. That 16 was a contempt hearing on April 9. There was 17 absolutely nothing in his deposition, it was a total 18 waste, except we later discovered here Mr. Minton 19 lied in that deposition. 20 THE COURT: Well, but I mean there was nothing 21 in there -- 22 MR. DANDAR: Nothing, zero. 23 THE COURT: -- about Mr. Dandar and perjury. 24 So it might have -- might it have been April 9 when 25 you actually learned facts or heard -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 42 1 THE WITNESS: I honestly can't remember, your 2 Honor. 3 THE COURT: Like I told many a witness in this 4 courtroom, that is a perfectly valid, decent answer. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Mr. Pope, you certainly would not have filed a 7 motion to disqualify an attorney for improper conduct 8 without knowing the facts to support your motion? 9 A If I have a co-counsel that tells me in his 10 reasoned judgment he needs a motion to disqualify and has 11 facts to support it, and I'm -- I'm comfortable with my 12 co-counsel, I may well have done that. 13 Q And that is what I'm going to try to get to. 14 Okay? 15 A But I would say, in addition, that certainly what 16 came out at that hearing supports a motion to disqualify. 17 Q And did you know about the meetings that took 18 place in your office -- the substance of those meetings that 19 took place in your office, without Mr. Minton having an 20 attorney present, on April 6th and 7th? 21 A I -- I did not participate in those meetings. And 22 the only thing that I ever learned about them was -- would 23 have been what others communicated to me. 24 Q And throughout the -- what transpired after that 25 hearing on April 9, would it be fair to say that Mr. Rosen Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 43 1 was the one that led the way, and you were simply, as his 2 co-counsel, as a Florida attorney, to assist him when he 3 directed you to assist him? 4 A I'm not sure I understand your question. 5 Q Well, you just told me that if Mr. Rosen 6 apparently told you to go ahead and file a motion to 7 disqualify me, you didn't know what the facts were but you 8 trusted he knew what the facts were? 9 A You know, I suspect Mr. Rosen communicated to me 10 the facts. But I honestly can't -- my -- my present 11 recollection is that the full-blown facts came out at the 12 hearing of the 9th. That is when I learned the meat on the 13 bones. 14 Q Wasn't it true, sir, more facts came out on the 15 19th of April and the 30th of April? 16 A I believe there were hearings and there were more 17 facts that came out. 18 MR. DANDAR: I have to ask him just hopefully 19 one question about this. Mr. Fugate asked about 20 this letter of mine of July 2nd. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q You filed -- when you filed a complaint against 23 me -- you, Mr. Pope, are the one that filed the complaint 24 against Ken Dandar, correct? 25 A Well, I didn't consider it to be filing a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 44 1 complaint in the sense that I didn't go through what -- I 2 think there are complaint forms and complaint procedures. I 3 considered myself as reporting professional misconduct for 4 the Bar to decide to do with it -- what to do with it under 5 Rule 4-8.3. 6 Q You didn't fill out a complaint form? 7 A No. My communication to the Bar is this letter of 8 April of 2002 which simply says, "Here is a transcript for 9 your perusal," without editorial comment. 10 Q Are you aware that in your inquiry into the 11 Florida Bar following my letter of July 2nd, the Florida Bar 12 said that I -- if I wanted to file a complaint against you 13 or any other lawyer associated with this action, that I had 14 to go and file a formal complaint, not just respond in a 15 letter? 16 A That is what the letter said. 17 Q Okay. So as you sit here today, are you quite 18 confident that there is not pending against you now, from 19 me, a complaint with the Florida Bar? 20 A Well, all I -- I don't know what you filed lately. 21 But the most recent correspondence I had from Ms. Wichrowski 22 is that if -- if you wanted to convert your allegations in 23 your July 2 letter into a complaint against me or any of the 24 other lawyers, that you would have to do so -- I think the 25 letter said something like you would have to, you know, go Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 45 1 through some -- take an oath or some perjury -- you would 2 have to submit it under oath. 3 Q Okay. 4 A And -- and I don't know whether you have done that 5 or not. 6 THE COURT: And yet, as far as you know, the 7 complaint against Mr. Dandar was instituted with 8 nothing more than a five-sentence letter from you? 9 THE WITNESS: Containing a sworn transcript. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q And that letter was just more bare bones than the 13 motion you filed to disqualify, correct? 14 A Yes, I was not interested in -- in launching an 15 editorial attack on you in that letter. I was interested in 16 doing what Rule 4-8.3 told me I had to do. 17 Q Didn't you file more than just this transcript of 18 April 9? 19 A Well, I -- I sent this. Then you started 20 responding with some fairly nice attacks on me. And so I 21 have responded to those with additional materials. 22 Q And isn't it true that you have -- you have not 23 come forward to discuss -- or to advise the Florida Bar of 24 the meetings that Mr. Minton had with your client? 25 A I haven't been asked to do that. And what I have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 46 1 submitted is -- is -- you know, I have been given until, I 2 think, the 26th of July to respond to yours of July 2nd, 3 which I intend to do. 4 Q Okay. And isn't it true, sir, that as the Judge 5 pointed out, the April 8 deposition of Mr. Minton had 6 nothing to do at all with the facts to support your motion 7 to disqualify? 8 A I didn't attend the deposition. I didn't read the 9 transcript. So I can't answer the question. 10 Q Okay. Look, I don't know -- I don't know if you 11 want to tell me, but would you agree that as far as the 12 decision-making -- the decision-making on what to do in the 13 breach case and the probate case, you take orders from 14 Mr. Rosen? 15 A No, I would not agree that is how it works. When 16 I am local counsel in a case, it is generally a 17 collaborative effort. We consult. We argue. Sometimes I 18 tell Mr. Rosen he's all wet, what he wants to do is too New 19 Yorky and we need to tone it down. So sometimes he listens 20 to me. Sometimes I listen to him. 21 Q Do you recall ever telling a local, prominent 22 attorney that if your client, the Church of Scientology, 23 ever decided to go after another attorney, that you would 24 withdraw? 25 A I'm sorry, say that again? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 47 1 Q Do you recall ever telling a local, prominent 2 attorney that if your client, the Church of Scientology, 3 ever decided to attack attorneys, that you would withdraw 4 from representing them? 5 A I don't remember any such conversation. 6 Q Okay. 7 A And I will add this. The decision to send this 8 transcript to the Bar was mine. This is my decision. And I 9 did it based upon what I understood the rule to be, as I 10 verified from -- this was not something my client directed 11 me to do. I did it. I take full responsibility for it. 12 Q So, Mr. Pope, before you sent this complaint in to 13 the Florida Bar, are you saying that you did not 14 investigate -- 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. Objection to the form, 16 "complaint." 17 THE COURT: What? 18 MR. FUGATE: I object to the form of the 19 question when he used the word "complaint." 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q When you sent this letter to the Florida Bar with 23 the April 9 transcript, are you saying that you did not 24 investigate to see if there had been any meetings between 25 Mr. Minton and the Church of Scientology that would cause Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 48 1 him to testify this way? 2 A I knew that there had been meetings between the 3 Church and its representatives and Mr. Minton. And the 4 transcript of the proceedings stood on its own. You know, 5 the Bar -- you know, the way that it works is the Bar looks 6 into these matters. If they determine that something needs 7 to be done, they refer it to a grievance committee which 8 serves as the grand jury. The grievance committee 9 investigates the matter and either finds it is minor 10 misconduct, they don't believe it, they nolle pros it, or 11 they indict and send it to a circuit judge for a trial. 12 Q Mr. Pope, did you know that in the March 28 13 meeting Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen told Mr. Minton that before 14 the Church of Scientology would ever consider settling with 15 him, he had to make the Lisa McPherson case and the Lawrence 16 Wollersheim case in California go away? 17 A I have no knowledge of what was said in those 18 meetings about any of that. 19 Q Have you ever learned about that meeting? 20 A The only -- the only thing I know is that meetings 21 took place. 22 Q Now, you talked about the RTC litigation in Texas. 23 Are you aware that the litigation in Texas arises from a 24 breach of the stipulation entered into in this case not to 25 add parties? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 49 1 A My understanding of it is it wasn't a stipulation, 2 it was a contract, a full-blown contract between the 3 parties. 4 Q You are not aware of Mr. Lieberman arguing it's -- 5 it was a litigation stipulation, or the Judge ruling -- 6 A I don't -- you know, I have seen the contract. It 7 looks like a contract, to me. But it was a contract that 8 arose out of this lawsuit. 9 Q Are you aware that Judge Moody entered an order 10 granting the estate the right to sue Mr. Miscavige in his 11 individual capacity? 12 A At this point, I'm not aware of any orders that -- 13 THE COURT: Is this discovery in some other 14 lawsuit? 15 MR. DANDAR: I'm just -- Mr. Fugate brought all 16 this up. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Are you aware, Mr. Pope, that Mr. Rosen -- his 19 bill was cut in half by the court in Texas? 20 A I'm not aware of -- of what the Court did, except 21 that the final judgments -- the total is close to $600,000. 22 Q And are you aware that the court in Texas found 23 RTC to be vexatious litigators, as well? 24 A I'm aware that the Court found you and your 25 brother to have engaged in that and entered a sanction Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 50 1 against you of almost $100,000. And I'm aware that no such 2 sanction was entered against RTC. 3 Q You are not aware that the federal judge reduced 4 the bill by over $200,000? 5 A I think the Court probably did cut some time out, 6 but I don't view that as a sanction. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Judges are always cutting lawyers' bills. 9 Q Mr. Pope, when you went to Judge Jenkins for the 10 first time in the Tampa Middle District Court, you were not 11 there to domesticate a federal judgment; you were there to 12 get immediate emergency writs of garnishment against my 13 personal account, my brother's personal account, my law 14 firm's account and Luke Lirot's personal accounts? 15 A I don't remember the word "emergency" being in the 16 matter. As I recall, you file these things, then you take a 17 hearing date that the judge gives you in federal court. 18 And, yes, the original request was for writs of 19 garnishment. And the minute you gave me the paper asserting 20 the 1963 defense, I withdrew them on the record. 21 Q And Judge Jenkins did admonish you and said she 22 was considering entering Rule 11 sanctions against you on 23 her own motion at that hearing, isn't that correct? 24 A I don't recall Judge Jenkins admonishing me. She 25 was -- she was irritated about the amount of time she had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 51 1 spent preparing for the hearing. And then I came in and 2 withdrew probably half of it. 3 Q You remember her saying "Rule 11 sanctions"? Do 4 you remember that phrase? 5 THE COURT: I hate to ask this, I really do, 6 but why would I care what Ms. Jenkins -- what 7 Magistrate Jenkins did, Judge Jenkins did to 8 Mr. Pope in some very unrelated -- frankly, I 9 wondered why Mr. Fugate was getting into it, I 10 wondered why you got into it. I keep wondering, and 11 it's 25 minutes until 5. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it is because you made the 13 statement several times, if we don't refute 14 something, it is admitted. 15 THE COURT: Well, you know, relevance, I also 16 told you-all -- and this is however many days -- and 17 much, much of it is irrelevant. I would say this is 18 part of that. 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 20 THE COURT: Interesting but not relevant. 21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, you said four suits. There are really five 24 suits, including the wrongful death case, correct? The 25 other four are filed by the Church of Scientology? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 52 1 A Yes. The question was how many was I involved in. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And I'm not involved in this one except as a 4 witness today. 5 Q Well, you are involved in the new suit you filed 6 for RTC here in Pinellas County? 7 A Which one are you talking about? 8 Q Well, not only are you domesticating the judgment 9 from Texas under the foreign domestication statute, but then 10 you went and filed a brand-new suit against the estate for 11 declaratory relief. 12 A That is required. You have to -- well, under the 13 probate code, as you -- I think you know, you have to file a 14 claim, which I did. And then if you object, I only have a 15 certain number of days to file an action or my claim is 16 gone. 17 So you objected. And I followed the rule of 18 filing the claim. It's pretty simple. 19 MR. DANDAR: Now, Judge, I'll try to go real 20 fast but I just have to respond to some of that. 21 THE COURT: That is fine. We'll finish this 22 up. This is the last witness of the day. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Mr. Pope, you agree that money of the estate is 25 the money of the decedent, not what happens after the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 53 1 decedent dies? Do you agree with that? 2 THE COURT: I don't even know what you asked. 3 What is this? 4 A I think that is a legal issue that is to be 5 decided as a part of the grand dispute here. I don't -- I 6 don't think I'm capable of answering that question. That is 7 a question the Judge will have to decide. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q All right. 10 THE COURT: What was it? See if I know the 11 answer. What was it? 12 MR. DANDAR: Money of the estate is only money 13 that the decedent had prior to death, not after 14 acquired funds, if there is such -- 15 A Just for the record, I do disagree with that 16 statement, but it is not my choice to make, it is going to 17 be decided by a judge. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. 19 THE COURT: In other words, what you are 20 suggesting is that the estate is the estate of Lisa 21 McPherson? Or the estate of Fannie McPherson? Or 22 whose estate? Lisa McPherson? 23 MR. DANDAR: Lisa McPherson. 24 THE COURT: You are suggesting that whatever 25 moneys or whatever value that estate had was what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 54 1 she had on the date of death? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 3 THE COURT: And, therefore, if this lawsuit -- 4 if there is some recovery in this lawsuit, that 5 would not be money inuring to the estate? 6 MR. DANDAR: No. No. No. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: They are trying to garnish my bank 9 account. They are saying I have estate money 10 because this money from Minton is the estate's 11 money. 12 The Florida law says the estate's money is 13 whatever the decedent had at the time of her death, 14 not what happens after the estate is opened. 15 THE COURT: Well, that would certainly be the 16 position you would want to take. If you said it was 17 the estate's money and they had the right to recover 18 against the estate -- 19 MR. DANDAR: Either way. You are right, 20 though. That is a legal issue and -- 21 THE COURT: It is. And I don't know the answer 22 to it, either. There you have it. I have never 23 been a probate judge or probate lawyer. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sure you don't want to be 25 one, either. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 55 1 THE COURT: I don't. I bet I get to answer 2 probate questions before this is done. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Mr. Pope, you said you wanted the estate to file 5 an accounting under seal in Clearwater probate court. 6 How many Scientologists work in the clerk's office 7 in Clearwater? 8 A I have no idea. 9 Q Okay. 10 A I don't know if one even works there. 11 Q Now, Mr. Pope, isn't it true -- you may not know 12 this. Isn't it true your client, the Church of Scientology, 13 already had copies of the UBS check before you set the UBS 14 bank deposition? 15 A That is not true. We got those checks after I 16 cancelled the deposition. I learned a day or two later that 17 we had -- that Mr. Minton, I believe, had been able to get 18 his own bank somehow to get them. 19 Q Did he tell you the name of that bank? 20 A I never talked to Mr. Minton. And I -- I honestly 21 don't remember -- UBS somehow comes into play. But that is 22 about all I can remember. 23 Q You know that UBS is not his bank? 24 A No, I don't. I don't know -- you are asking me 25 questions about which I know nothing. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 56 1 Q All right. Just say you don't know. Do you know 2 the name of the bank that sent the money to the UBS bank? 3 A Not as I sit here today. 4 Q Now, isn't it true you cancelled the UBS 5 deposition after we filed a motion, and you cancelled it the 6 night before the hearing? 7 A I don't remember. The motion you filed had zip, 8 nothing, to do with the cancellation of the deposition. 9 The deposition was cancelled because in-house 10 lawyers said, "We're going to show up and tell you we can't 11 find the checks." And I'm a firm believer in not wasting 12 time. So that is what I did. 13 Q Did you tell that on the record at the hearing 14 concerning this deposition, that the checks could not be 15 found? 16 A I don't remember what I said at the hearing. I'm 17 sure there is a transcript, though. 18 THE COURT: I thought there wasn't a hearing -- 19 I thought there was -- there wasn't a deposition. 20 MR. DANDAR: There was a hearing. 21 THE COURT: Oh, a hearing. I'm sorry. 22 MR. DANDAR: Concerning that deposition. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Now, you filed this transcript with the Florida 25 Bar of the April 9 hearing where the only person that was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 57 1 permitted to question Mr. Minton was Mr. Rosen and 2 Mr. Howie. Correct? 3 A I don't remember. 4 Q Neither Luke Lirot, who was representing me -- he 5 was not permitted to question Mr. Minton at all concerning 6 his accusations against me. Do you remember that? 7 A No, I don't. But -- I don't. But this was -- 8 this was Chapter 1 in several days' worth of hearings, so as 9 I recall there was ample opportunity ultimately afforded to 10 everybody to do what they needed to do in compliance with 11 the notion of basic due process. 12 Q And, Mr. Pope, I want you to assume that your 13 client had copies of the UBS check before you set the notice 14 of deposition of the UBS bank. And if that is true -- 15 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I'm just going to 16 object to that because it is not a fair assumption 17 based on his testimony. 18 THE COURT: Well, it -- I would have to ask, 19 first of all, whether Mr. Pope would know anything 20 beyond what you know. In other words, as far as you 21 know -- 22 THE WITNESS: I already knew that at the time I 23 cancelled those depositions we did not have copies 24 of the checks. We got them later through 25 Mr. Minton. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 58 1 THE COURT: You would have had no way of 2 knowing -- there has been an allegation made that -- 3 there is an allegation that there is a department 4 within the Church called Office of Special Affairs, 5 that they do investigations of all sorts. If for 6 some -- if in some fashion the Office of Special 7 Affairs had gotten this check and turned it over to 8 someone within the Office of Special Affairs, not to 9 their lawyer, not to you, you, of course, would not 10 have known that. 11 THE WITNESS: I would have not known that. And 12 as I recall, my communications were with Mr. Rosen, 13 who told me some days later that Mr. Minton had been 14 able to get the checks. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, likewise, is a lawyer, 16 as are you. 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: As I said, the allegations here -- 19 I'm not saying they are true or not, there are a lot 20 of allegations that fly. 21 One of the allegations is in the Office of 22 Special Affairs, they do a lot of investigations, 23 they have their ways to get information such as bank 24 checks belonging to other banks, moneys, checks, 25 belonging to other people. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 59 1 Had this occurred, had it been kept internal, 2 you would not have known that? 3 THE WITNESS: I would not necessarily have 4 known it. 5 THE COURT: But your client, obviously, if that 6 were true, didn't disclose that to you; as far as 7 you knew, your client wanted those checks? 8 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 9 THE COURT: And you were pursuing them, but 10 when you found out you weren't going to get them, 11 there was no purpose in having a deposition? 12 THE WITNESS: We considered those checks to be 13 key corroborative evidence of whether Mr. Minton was 14 telling the truth. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Where was the perjury concerning the March 2000 17 check? 18 THE COURT: Oh, honestly. 19 MR. DANDAR: I'll withdraw it. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q How did your client get a color copy of a UBS 22 check? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q And when you say Mr. Minton turned it over, you 25 are relying upon what Mr. Rosen told you. Correct? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 60 1 A I think so. Mr. -- I can't remember. Mr. Minton 2 may have testified about that. I honestly can't remember. 3 Q Did you ever have any knowledge that Mr. Rinder -- 4 Michael Rinder -- who is the one that met with Mr. Minton, 5 is the one who turned over the UBS checks to Mr. Rosen? 6 A I have no knowledge of that. 7 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have. 8 MR. FUGATE: I am learning from Mr. Pope. I'll 9 be very quick and not waste any time. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q Just so the record is complete, on April 9, that 14 was a proceeding not involving Mr. Dandar, but was it not a 15 sentencing in Mr. Minton's contempt case before Judge Baird? 16 THE COURT: I think the record is clear on 17 that. 18 A I think that is true. 19 THE COURT: I think I asked it myself. 20 MR. FUGATE: Then I saved time. I have no 21 further questions, Judge. 22 THE COURT: I have one. I'm a little confused. 23 And, Mr. Pope, this doesn't involve you. Thank you 24 for coming. 25 (Witness excused.) Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 61 1 THE COURT: I have two Number 274s here. One 2 is an FDLE letter that says "Dear Mr. Fugate." And 3 one is a letter that says "Dear Ms. Bloemendaal." 4 One is 275, one is 274? 5 MR. FUGATE: This should be 274, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Do you think we marked it that 8 way, or -- 9 THE COURT: No. This is me. I marked it. 10 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 11 THE COURT: These are all my markings and I 12 obviously marked two 274s. 13 I'm tired, I think we had a long day. What is 14 this -- this assortment of books over here? 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is going to be a 16 demonstrative -- 17 THE COURT: You're not going to ask me to read 18 all of this. 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm certainly not. The point 20 I'm going to make is how much you would have to 21 read. It's just a demonstrative exhibit. We'll get 22 to it tomorrow. 23 THE COURT: Well, bring a camera and take a 24 picture, because whatever -- whatever it is, we 25 wouldn't be able to describe it adequately. A Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 62 1 picture -- 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: I think it would be impossible 3 to describe. 4 THE COURT: I think it is. I am glad to know 5 you are not going to ask me to read all of that 6 between now and -- 7 MR. WEINBERG: And the end of your life? How 8 about the end of your life? 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I think if I asked 10 you to do that, you would bar me from the courtroom. 11 THE COURT: I would not be able to. 12 All right, we are adjourned for the day. See 13 you tomorrow at 9~o'clock. 14 (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 5:00 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 63 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 17th day of July, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500