1 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Conclusion of Rebuttal; Surrebuttal. 17 DATE: July 18, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 6 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 7 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 8 Organization. 9 MR. LEE FUGATE 10 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 11 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 12 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 13 14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 15 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 3 1 THE COURT: Okay. Are we were you able to 2 correct the -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: No, but we have it on video. It 4 got corrupted somehow. And I don't understand how 5 computers work, but some bug got in there. So we 6 have a video which is what we were going to put in 7 evidence anyway. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. WEINBERG: So here is the transcript. I 10 think this is very clear. But just for the record, 11 this is the one I mentioned earlier, the picket of 12 the union people at The Profit movie. And the date 13 of this is September 20, 2000. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: It is about five minutes. 16 ______________________________________ 17 (WHEREUPON, the video is played.) 18 "We approached the company, we asked to sit 19 down and negotiate a fair and equitable agreement. 20 And they said absolutely not. So that's all I can 21 do is offer the other plan. 22 "You got that from --" 23 (Inaudible.) 24 "-- woman who looks like Linda Tripp, Patricia, 25 is that her name? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 4 1 "Patricia Greenway. 2 "Patricia is the one who said that. And I 3 asked her twice. So, I mean, here I am. We're 4 happy to talk. We're happy to come up with 5 something equitable and reasonable. 6 "So that is where we are. We're here, we're 7 ready to talk at any time. 8 "Who spoke to you from Scientology? 9 "Nobody. 10 "Well, how did you first get -- 11 "We're labor -- (inaudible.) 12 "I am a Presbyterian. I don't even know what 13 Scientologists do. 14 "I'm a Baptist. 15 "How did you become aware of this situation, 16 sir? Was there a complaint from the staff, or -- 17 "I (inaudible) -- that is not something I'm 18 going to discuss with you. Why we're here, why we 19 pick certain targets, that's not something I'm going 20 to discuss with you. 21 "You have no idea but you are the head of this 22 group. 23 "The discussion is over, ma'am. (Inaudible.) 24 "Why is the discussion over?" 25 (Inaudible.) Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 5 1 "Because I'm finished with it. Because you've 2 got a video guy here. I'm not here to be 3 interrogated by this young lady." 4 (Inaudible.) 5 "No, I'm not. I'm not. 6 "It isn't going to happen, or you either. So 7 this discussion is over. Have a nice time walking. 8 We'll have a nice time walking. We hope it doesn't 9 rain." 10 (Inaudible.) 11 "-- are you interested in hearing the other 12 side of the story? 13 "Are you empowered to negotiate on behalf of 14 the company, because I don't care about Scientology, 15 I don't care about you folks, I care about getting 16 my guys a contract and getting them back to work." 17 (Inaudible.) 18 "Six days before filming is over? 19 "If you can do that, if you can do that, then 20 let's negotiate. If you can't, then I am finished 21 talking to you. Okay? 22 "Six days before filming is over?" 23 (Inaudible.) 24 "So you are not interested in hearing what 25 else -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 6 1 "I'm not interested. 2 "Hand me your literature. I'll read your sign. 3 I've read your sign here. It is all very 4 interesting. It's all very exciting. 5 "So is it true that you guys were sitting in 6 the hotel lobby of the -- 7 "Excuse me. Excuse me. I'm finished talking 8 to you." 9 (Inaudible.) 10 "I'm finished talking to you, finished talking 11 to you." 12 (Inaudible.) 13 "Enjoyed talking to you. 14 "Any woman, period. 15 "We're members of the Lisa McPherson Trust. We 16 are a watchdog group. 17 "With respect to Scientology. And what we do 18 is we alert people to the dangers of this particular 19 cult and that's why they are trying to shut down 20 this film. And now what you guys are doing, perhaps 21 inadvertently, perhaps not, but you're going along 22 with them in an attempt to destroy the public's 23 opportunity for us to make a film. That is all I'll 24 saying. 25 "One person was -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 7 1 "And you had no problem with it? And then you 2 show up at the last moment and try to stick it to us 3 and bully us into something? That's ridiculous. 4 Who do you think you're dealing with here. We're 5 going up against the Church of Scientology. Let me 6 tell you guys, they're about 50 times bigger and 7 meaner than you ever thought of being, and we're not 8 afraid of them and we're not afraid of you. 9 "We're sick of it. We're just not going to 10 take it any more. 11 "You don't care about America, do you? You 12 don't care what's good for you. You don't care 13 about free speech." 14 "(Inaudible.) 15 "You don't care about free speech. You don't 16 care about what's good for people. 17 "I am out here for free speech. So are you. 18 So are you. 19 "You don't care about that, do you?" 20 (Inaudible.) 21 "-- first Amendment. 22 "You don't care about that. No, it doesn't 23 matter to you. It --" 24 (Inaudible.) 25 "Let's negotiate a contract, Peter. Let's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 8 1 negotiate a contract, Peter. Come on. We're right 2 here. 3 "What is the matter with you? 4 "Let's negotiate a contract. 5 "All you are going to do is destroy one of the 6 greatest films of all time with your union 7 bullshit." 8 (Inaudible.) 9 "We want to go back to work. 10 "He doesn't want to make a deal. He's got a 11 movie going. Put the people back on the set. 12 "All they have to do is negotiate a contract." 13 (Inaudible.) 14 "Sure, he does. 15 "If he wants a non-union crew, then hire a 16 non-union crew. You want to make a non-union movie? 17 Make it without our people. 18 "Think whatever you like. 19 "I know it. 20 "You think you know it, huh?" 21 (Inaudible.) 22 "Okay. Okay. Know whatever you like. 23 "I know it. 24 "Know whatever you like. 25 "But I'm just saying it's not good for you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 9 1 guys. Look at this. Scientology's dupes. 2 "If you think this -- this is a joke. You 3 people are a joke. 4 "What? 5 "This is a laugher to me. This is a laugh. 6 This IATSE, Scientology dupes? Come on. 7 "I'm going to tell you something -- 8 "Police -- the police -- 9 "I'm from Chicago. When you have police, 10 police represent the people. Would you agree with 11 that? 12 "I don't -- I don't know. 13 "I'm just telling you. Police, don't they -- 14 "Make your statement. Make your statement. 15 I'm not here to be interrogated. Okay? 16 "Well, I'm just saying -- I am just asking you, 17 do you think so or not?" 18 (Inaudible.) 19 "Okay. 20 "I don't know. In some circumstances, yes. In 21 some circumstances, no. 22 "Okay. So in Clearwater -- so in Clearwater 23 they're in bed with Scientology. They're not 24 representing us. 25 "According to you? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 10 1 "They hit Bob Minton. They jumped on him. I 2 watched it. 3 "Who is Bob Minton? 4 "One of the guys here. They dove on him, threw 5 him to the ground. Do you think the police cared? 6 No. Because they are getting paid by the Church. 7 "Gee, that's too bad. 8 "Yeah, it's too bad. And it's too bad this is 9 here, too, and that people lost their jobs. 10 "You guys, you guys are zealots. You guys -- 11 "We are not Scientologists. 12 "You're zealots. 13 "We're not. 14 "You don't have to be a Scientologist to be a 15 zealot. You're a zealot. 16 "We're people that believe in work. 17 "That's fine." 18 (The playing of the video is concluded.) 19 ______________________________________ 20 MR. WEINBERG: That is it. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 MR. FUGATE: This is where I hope things really 25 speed up. I have got the next exhibit which I have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 11 1 had the clerk mark as Exhibit 284 marked for 2 identification. 3 It's a copy of the last order in the Texas case 4 that was discussed yesterday. I think it is in 5 rebuttal to the suggestion that in the sanction 6 order -- this is the last order which basically 7 sanctions the Rule 11 -- or, excuse me, the 28, 1927 8 sanction as to Mr. Dandar, Dandar & Dandar. It does 9 not sanction the Church. 10 I offer that as our next exhibit. It basically 11 completes the prior exhibit on the same issue. 12 THE COURT: This says "199." That is the 13 number? 14 MR. FUGATE: That is actually the docket number 15 from the Texas court. 16 THE COURT: What is our number? 17 MR. FUGATE: Our number is 284. Is that 18 correct, madam clerk? 19 THE CLERK: Yes. 20 MR. FUGATE: Defense Exhibit 284. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. FUGATE: I offer that. 23 THE COURT: This appears to be an order on a 24 motion for rehearing and reconsideration. 25 MR. FUGATE: I think the suggestion was, if I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 12 1 recall the testimony, that on that rehearing there 2 was a sanction entered against the Church, I think 3 it was in questions from Mr. Dandar, if I remember 4 correctly, and that indicates -- or in his 5 testimony. 6 And that indicates that is not the case, and 7 the sanction was upheld. And as Mr. Pope indicated, 8 as of yesterday, was not aware of any supersedence 9 bond. So that is just to complete that portion of 10 the -- 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. FUGATE: -- record. 13 The next exhibit, your Honor, I had the clerk 14 mark the original, is, speaking to Mr. Pope, he 15 indicated that he believed that -- and I agree -- 16 that the renewed petition for removal of personal 17 representative, which is the probate portion of the 18 case which he described as handling yesterday, 19 should be admitted for whatever use and benefit the 20 Court gives it with regard to his testimony 21 yesterday about the accountings and about the 22 request for the expedited accounting and that the 23 accounting be in camera to complete the Court's 24 record/appreciation of that. 25 And I offer it simply for the Court's reading. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 13 1 THE COURT: Why do I need all this? All this 2 renewed petition? 3 MR. DANDAR: That is totally -- it has nothing 4 to do with our motions. 5 MR. FUGATE: Well -- 6 MR. DANDAR: But it sure does show how much 7 they want to interfere with the estate. 8 MR. FUGATE: Well, based on that statement I 9 think it is worth reading because it shows what's 10 being raised is the reason why -- it goes actually 11 to the issue of damages in the counterclaim and the 12 fact that, depending on the amount of damages that 13 would be recovered, if any, in this case, we're 14 further and further behind the 8-ball as the 15 defendants. 16 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, but I don't understand 17 that argument. Two million a week and they're 18 behind the 8-ball? I don't understand it. 19 What I understand is I had to demand -- request 20 counsel to provide you with the prior order of the 21 Texas court which does find RTC to be vexatious 22 litigators. It does not sanction them, but 23 sanctions my brother and I. But does find them to 24 be a vexatious litigators, just as the Second 25 District Court of Appeals said they had conducted Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 14 1 discovery with a scorched earth policy in this case. 2 And to provide you just half of the picture I 3 don't think is a proper way to do it. 4 THE COURT: Yes, if I don't get the order this 5 reconsiders, I'm not going to take -- 6 MR. FUGATE: It is already in evidence, Judge. 7 MR. WEINBERG: It is already in evidence. 8 MR. FUGATE: To complete the picture, it is 9 there. I'll find the number right now. 10 THE COURT: Yes, if you can give me that number 11 right now. 12 MR. FUGATE: If you just give me a moment -- 13 MR. DANDAR: If it is already in, I apologize 14 for the last comment. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me ask somebody to look 16 for it while I'm going to the next exhibit, if I 17 may. 18 May I have permission to go ahead? What I'm 19 doing is essentially putting in affidavits. And I 20 recognize what your -- what the Court earlier said 21 this morning, which was you're going to take them 22 for such benefit as they provide to you, we could 23 call a witness, but it would, in our judgment, 24 unduly prolong the proceedings. 25 This is going to be 286. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 15 1 THE COURT: This renewed petition for removal 2 of the personal representative has a huge section in 3 here that is signatures. 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. That, as I understand 5 it from Mr. Pope, was attached as exhibits to 6 address the issue which I think -- and I preface it 7 by "think" -- it's been testified to at some point 8 by Mr. Dandar that the Judge dismissed the earlier 9 probate petition. 10 What Judge Greer did -- and I happened to be 11 there that day -- was say because you don't have a 12 judgment yet, you have no standing. And what this 13 is to do is to go back and -- and we now have 14 standing, obviously, because of the liability 15 finding in the Flag breach and obviously the Texas 16 RTC case, as I understand it. It just reups all of 17 the prior pleadings in the new petition. 18 THE COURT: I don't think you understand what 19 I'm saying. I have no interest at all in all these 20 pages that deal with the signatures. It is a huge 21 amount of records. I mean, it must be 30 pages 22 worth of signatures. It looks like it's all of -- 23 MR. FUGATE: I think it is handwriting exemplar 24 evidence that went in. 25 THE COURT: All -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 16 1 MR. FUGATE: If you want it with just the 2 petition -- 3 THE COURT: All of F and G are to be removed, 4 madam clerk. Remove F and G. It is just too much 5 stuff. 6 MR. FUGATE: That is your copy you have there, 7 Judge. 8 THE COURT: So I'm going to -- I'm going to 9 remove F and G. Then at least it is a workable 10 document. You can take F and G back and just 11 note -- maybe I'll take -- I can take the cover 12 sheet and then I'll just note on my F and G that I 13 have those removed. Okay? 14 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. MOXON: You need a smaller clip, your 17 Honor? 18 THE COURT: Pardon me? 19 MR. MOXON: You need a smaller clip for that? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. MOXON: You won't need that huge thing any 22 more. 23 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, the next exhibit -- I 24 have given the original to the clerk, I hope, 25 which -- that is going to be Exhibit 286. I'll give Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 17 1 the Court a courtesy copy. I am giving one to 2 Mr. Dandar. 3 This is an affidavit of Paul Ortner. And it is 4 in rebuttal to the police report that was, I 5 believe, put into evidence, and at the very least 6 testified to that Mr. Ortner was interviewed by a 7 detective of the Clearwater Police Department, 8 indicating in the interview notes that he said that 9 David Miscavige was staying at the Ft. Harrison. 10 If you look -- 11 THE COURT: You objected to that and I kept it 12 out. 13 MR. DANDAR: That is right, Judge. 14 THE COURT: So you can't rebut something you 15 asked to be removed that I removed. 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, if that is out, then 17 obviously we don't need to introduce this. It is 18 just an affidavit saying that is not what he told 19 the police. He said he's there, there -- 20 THE COURT: It is even worse to put on the 21 record something that you can't even put in. I 22 would not have kept it out, it was part of 23 Mr. Dandar's exhibit, and, frankly, if you want it 24 in, if Mr. Dandar wants it in, and you want to 25 introduce that, that is fine. But you objected and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 18 1 kept his out. So we can't have something to 2 rebut -- 3 MR. FUGATE: If it is out, why put anything 4 else in the record, frankly. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think the order 6 we're looking for is Defense 192. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. WEINBERG: If we can just pull Defense 192, 9 I'm pretty sure that is the one. 10 THE COURT: Well, now I have done it. I have 11 got the wrong -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Let me show this to Mr. Dandar 13 and see if this is the one he's referring to. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Whatever I removed from 15 the -- from this exhibit, I must have removed the 16 cover sheet. This is the lawsuit -- the probate 17 matter. 18 Would you look at what I returned to you-all 19 and see if I took off the front page, like Page 1, I 20 guess. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, this is the exhibit so he -- 22 you must have the -- 23 THE COURT: I think what happened was when I 24 pulled something off -- or else I just put it in 25 there so I wouldn't be able to tell what it was by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 19 1 looking at it because I -- here it is, I have got 2 it. It's -- it's misplaced in my materials. So I 3 have got it. Here it is. Now I have got it. 4 MR. FUGATE: And you have the number -- 5 THE COURT: I don't have the number on it so 6 tell me again what it is. It's the renewed petition 7 for removal? 8 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is 2- -- 9 THE CLERK: 285. 10 MR. FUGATE: -- 285. 11 THE COURT: 286 was not admitted. 12 MR. FUGATE: 286 is not admitted. 287 is -- 13 well, I don't want to swamp you there, either. 14 THE COURT: Okay, I'm ready. 15 MR. FUGATE: 287 -- 16 THE COURT: You can have this back. Oh, I 17 guess I'm keeping those and just showing them not 18 admitted so I know that I haven't missed something. 19 Okay. 20 MR. FUGATE: 287, your Honor, is an affidavit 21 of Jeffrey Schmidt who you heard testimony about 22 from Jesse Prince, and comments again from 23 Mr. Dandar who Mr. Prince indicated told Jesse 24 Prince that Scientology had broken into his office 25 and stolen documents from him in London. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 20 1 This is an affidavit from Mr. Schmidt that said 2 he never made such a statement to Mr. Prince and 3 there was no break-in. We offer that as 287. 4 MR. DANDAR: I object. This is Bob Minton's 5 former business partner. And this is someone who 6 was attacking a witness on the stand. That Jeff 7 Schmidt should be here for cross-examination when 8 you are going to attack a witness that testified 9 that directly. This is not some other kind of 10 document like some of the other declarations. This 11 is actually an impeachment, and that person should 12 be subject to cross-examination. 13 THE COURT: I tend to agree. 14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I offer it as an affidavit. 15 You can use it for whatever use you find. It's an 16 affidavit from the individual. And the testimony of 17 Mr. Prince was hearsay. It is an effort to rebut 18 that with a sworn affidavit. 19 THE COURT: Yes, I think what I have done and 20 what I have said all along is there will be 21 affidavits that will be admitted that will be 22 hearsay affidavits because the people weren't here, 23 and that I would not accord it the same evidentiary 24 value as I would somebody who was here and subject 25 to cross-examination. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 21 1 MR. FUGATE: I understand that. 2 THE COURT: So, Mr. Dandar, it is here, it will 3 be admitted, but it won't be afforded the same value 4 as somebody who was here and testified. 5 Well, look, you got a document, a huge 6 document, that you wanted admitted that some lawyer 7 testifying that the Scientologists did such and such 8 and so and so. This is a one pager, you don't want 9 that in, and you want your three-inch thing in. 10 MR. DANDAR: But what I'm saying, I think the 11 reason why it is different is because he 12 specifically attacks testimony of a live witness in 13 this case. 14 THE COURT: What did you think that was for? 15 If it isn't to say that some of the testimony in 16 here is either true or not true, what is it for? 17 MR. DANDAR: That is for pattern of conduct. 18 That is -- Mr. Yanny, the attorney for RTC, 19 testifies about pattern of conduct. 20 THE COURT: Mr. Yanny's affidavit is in. It is 21 somebody else's affidavit that I never heard of. 22 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Cipriano. That is another 23 evidence of pattern of conduct attacking the 24 attorney, which is what they're doing in this case. 25 THE COURT: You get yours in, they get theirs Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 22 1 in. Your objection is overruled. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Dandar says this is the 3 order, so it is 192, from Texas. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. DANDAR: It is the second-to-the-last page 6 where they talk about the tactics of RTC. 7 THE COURT: Well, I'll have a chance to read 8 it. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I'll give this back to the 10 clerk. 11 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, you asked me to bring 12 the Cipriano affidavit -- 13 THE COURT: Yes. 14 MR. MOXON: -- that withdraws his statements in 15 the other one. But if you are not going to be 16 admitting it -- 17 THE COURT: No, I am going to be admitting it. 18 But what I wanted, he said he had withdrawn it, then 19 reinstated it. And I wanted to be sure that went 20 with it. 21 MR. MOXON: Here is the affidavit -- 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. MOXON: -- withdrawing it. I don't know if 24 it's marked. I guess that will be marked as next. 25 THE COURT: Did he -- did he later then say it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 23 1 was valid? 2 MR. MOXON: He didn't go back and say it was 3 valid, but he made another affidavit which said 4 similar things, then he had another affidavit that 5 said that affidavit was false. 6 But I'm responding to the specific affidavit 7 that Mr. Dandar attempted to admit. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. DANDAR: Judge, you told him to bring in 10 all of the affidavits, and he's only bringing in 11 one. And there is apparently -- now, instead of one 12 more, there are two or three more. I think they 13 should produce all of them. 14 MR. MOXON: This is number 186? 15 MR. WEINBERG: 2. 16 MR. MOXON: 286? 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes, 286. 18 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. If you find 19 another affidavit or something else, Mr. Dandar, you 20 want me to consider, bring it in. 21 I understand what he's saying. He's saying now 22 there was another affidavit. So this is to respond 23 to this affidavit that you have submitted. So that 24 will be in. 25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just don't have access to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 24 1 any other affidavits. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. DANDAR: And they apparently have them, 4 also. That is why I asked they be produced. 5 THE COURT: It is another affidavit. A 6 different affidavit. 7 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, I gave you the wrong 8 number. This would be 287. 286 was not admitted, 9 is that correct, Mr. Fugate? 10 MR. WEINBERG: What is 286? 11 MR. DANDAR: Ortner. That was not admitted. 12 MR. MOXON: I don't want to confuse everybody. 13 THE COURT: I have a 287 so I'm assuming this 14 is 288. 15 Whatever else you have that is on Cipriano, I 16 guess we better have it. So -- so we'll make this 17 288A. Just send me whatever else you've got. 18 MR. FUGATE: Could we make that whatever -- 19 THE CLERK: 289. 20 MR. FUGATE: -- 289, Judge, because I just gave 21 her another affidavit in between that is 288. 22 THE COURT: 289A. Mr. Moxon, I'll expect you 23 to give me whatever else you have on this fellow. 24 MR. MOXON: Okay. 25 THE CLERK: It is in evidence? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 25 1 THE COURT: Well, 289A is. And you should note 2 we expect at least a B, if not B and C. And we'll 3 make sure you get it. Okay? 4 THE CLERK: Okay. Thank you. 5 THE COURT: Well, you make sure you get it. 6 Okay? 7 THE CLERK: Yes. 8 MR. DANDAR: What number exhibit is the Jeff 9 Schmidt letter? 10 THE COURT: 288, it must be, because -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Wait a minute, 287, I believe. Is 12 that right, madam clerk, the Jeff Schmidt affidavit? 13 THE COURT: That is the affidavit. That is 14 287? 15 THE CLERK: That is correct. 16 THE COURT: I never did get 288, whatever it 17 is. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm about to hand it up, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. FUGATE: I just got ahead of myself in an 21 effort to keep my promise to finish up. 22 Are we ready? 23 THE COURT: Ready. 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, during the testimony of 25 Vaughn Young, and, I believe, another witness Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 26 1 whose name escapes me, there was -- I know in Vaughn 2 Young's testimony there was bits of the submission 3 that was made to the IRS for the tax exemption that 4 he pulled out and got placed into evidence by 5 Mr. Dandar. 6 And at the time I think there was an indication 7 that if we wanted to complete that submission, we 8 could. 9 And I have got an authenticating affidavit, 10 which would be our next exhibit, from Monique 11 Yingling, basically that authenticates all of the 12 documents -- or portions of the documents that are 13 denoted in there that were provided by her to the 14 IRS for the exemption in regard -- 15 THE COURT: I have no idea what you're talking 16 about. Whatever Peter Alexander testified about the 17 IRS, what would that have to do with -- 18 MR. FUGATE: No, there were portions of this 19 submission he had taken out -- 20 THE COURT: Submission? What are you talking 21 about, this submission? 22 MR. FUGATE: When Mr. Dandar had Vaughn Young 23 on the stand -- 24 THE COURT: Okay? 25 MR. FUGATE: -- he introduced into evidence Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 27 1 several pages of a submission that was made to the 2 IRS. 3 THE COURT: Oh. 4 MR. FUGATE: And this is the entire submission 5 for the parts that he had talked about, with an 6 authenticating affidavit from Monique Yingling. And 7 that is going to be self-explanatory. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I can clarify what 9 submission it was because I was involved with 10 Ms. Yingling. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: It was a submission of 13 materials, including answers to questions from the 14 IRS in the Church's applications for tax exemption 15 which led to the granting of tax exemption in 1993. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. LIEBERMAN: And the submission was made on 18 behalf of and included in the IRS record of various 19 churches, including FSO. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: The point is this is -- 22 Mr. Young submitted portions -- 23 THE COURT: I understand. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: It is another portion. 25 THE COURT: I just admitted it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 28 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just wanted to make sure you 2 understood. 3 THE COURT: I understand it now. I'd 4 forgotten. 5 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the next affidavit -- which 6 would be 290, madam clerk? 7 THE CLERK: Yes, it is. 8 MR. FUGATE: I have given the original 9 affidavit to the clerk. It is an affidavit from Mr. 10 Moxon that in the body of the affidavit goes through 11 and specifically rebuts -- it's self-explanatory, I 12 can either read it to you or give it to you to 13 read -- the testimony that Mr. Oliver said -- 14 testified to that he met with Mr. Moxon -- 15 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon was present in this 16 courtroom. If Mr. Moxon wanted to testify, he could 17 have. I will not receive his affidavit. He's here 18 and -- 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, Judge -- 20 THE COURT: I don't need an affidavit from 21 somebody who is sitting in the courtroom, available 22 to testify. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, all it is, 24 Mr. Oliver talked about what Mr. Moxon had asked in 25 a certain deposition. All it is is an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 29 1 authenticating affidavit of that deposition. 2 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 3 MR. MOXON: No, it is a bit more than that. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'm sorry, I misspoke. 5 MR. MOXON: No, Mr. Oliver testified that he 6 met me at a certain time. I never met the man in my 7 life. 8 THE COURT: If you want to testify and refute 9 what somebody else said, you need to testify. I 10 just can't have people putting in affidavits, when 11 they are here, available to be called as witnesses 12 and cross-examined. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, then what we'll do -- 14 THE COURT: It is nothing against Mr. Moxon. 15 But he's here, he's been sitting here every day. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm not arguing with that. 17 What I was going to ask the Court, hopefully we 18 won't have a break, but if we have a break before we 19 finish, I'll try to at least line out the portions 20 that relate to that and go back to the 21 authenticating part of the deposition and explain 22 that to you. But I would like to leave it marked 23 for now. 24 THE COURT: You can leave it marked for now. 25 It is not in evidence. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 30 1 THE CLERK: Judge, what number is that? 2 THE COURT: I don't know. 3 MR. FUGATE: It is 290. Right? 4 THE CLERK: All right. 5 THE COURT: A lot of these affidavits I'm 6 letting in because these people aren't here, it's a 7 long trip, there are lots of reasons why. They are 8 fairly peripheral. And, you know, we'll just let 9 them in. 10 But I feel a little differently about somebody 11 who is here. Next I'll have an affidavit from 12 Mr. Dandar, and I'll have one from you and one from 13 Ms. Greenway. And, you know, if somebody is here 14 and can testify, we need their testimony. 15 MR. FUGATE: If we can get this stuff in today, 16 hopefully there won't be any more. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to have Mr. Moxon look 19 at it as far as going to the authentication part. 20 Let me see where I am next. 21 The next affidavits are -- actually, I think it 22 would be better -- I'll tell you what they are and 23 I'm going to ask to submit them as a composite. 24 The next number is 291? 25 THE CLERK: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 31 1 MR. FUGATE: What these are, your Honor, are 2 affidavits from Norman Starkey; Greg Wilhere; Ray 3 Mithoff; Guillaume Lesevre -- I know I'm butchering 4 the name, G-U-I-L-L-A-U-M-E, last name 5 L-E-S-E-V-R-E; Mark Jager; and Mark Ingber, 6 I-N-G-B-E-R. 7 These collectively are affidavits, your Honor, 8 that basically indicate "I am a captain in the Sea 9 Org and I know that Mr. Miscavige is a captain in 10 the Sea Org," and they're all at the same rank. 11 And I would offer those as a composite for 12 whatever. 13 THE COURT: Any objection? 14 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 15 MR. WEINBERG: There are two more, apparently. 16 MR. FUGATE: Okay, well, let me add to that. 17 John Napier and Jan McLaughlin. 18 Judge, what I'll do, to save time, I'll break 19 these out, give him a copy and give a copy to your 20 Honor, and ask the clerk mark them as a composite, 21 rather than take the Court's time. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, rather than fumble 24 around, I'll have Mr. Moxon make a submission he was 25 going to make and get these divided out and give Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 32 1 them to your Honor and go to my next point so we'll 2 move it along. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. DANDAR: Aren't there more affidavits than 5 this of Mr. Jager's. 6 MR. FUGATE: I said I'll break them out 7 originally so they can be put together as a 8 composite. And I'll give you, marked 9 chronologically A, B, C, whatever they are, and to 10 the Court, as well. 11 MR. DANDAR: Do you want this one back then? 12 MR. FUGATE: No. You can have it. 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. 14 MR. MOXON: Madam clerk, the last exhibit was 15 291, is that correct? 16 THE CLERK: That is correct. 17 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I'm just going to enter 18 several church policies into evidence, if I could. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. MOXON: We'll mark as Exhibit 292 HCO 21 policy letter entitled "Antisocial personality of 22 the anti-Scientologist." 23 MR. DANDAR: What was 291? 24 THE COURT: I'm assuming it must be one of 25 these affidavits. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 33 1 MR. WEINBERG: It is the package being marked. 2 MR. DANDAR: But 290 is Jager, right? 3 THE COURT: No, actually Mr. Jager is one of 4 many that will be 291. He just showed you an 5 example, I think. 6 MR. DANDAR: I hate to say that. Then what is 7 290? 8 THE COURT: I don't know because I don't have 9 it, either. 10 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 11 THE COURT: I have 289 -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: Was that the one you didn't 13 admit is 290? 14 THE CLERK: 290 is the one, ID only, affidavit 15 of -- 16 THE COURT: Right, 290 is Mr. Moxon's affidavit 17 that will be amended, apparently. 18 Okay, 292. 19 MR. MOXON: The question arose here as to what 20 a suppressive person is and what one isn't -- is 21 not. 22 This issue makes clear there are antisocial 23 personalities in the world, and that is entirely 24 different than someone who is in the Church and 25 attempting to do the steps 8 E to have that status Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 34 1 changed. That is 292. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 293 is a policy letter 4 called "Third Dynamic Tech." 5 Exhibit 294 is a policy -- Scientology policy 6 directive dated July 15, 1986, revised July 17, 7 1987. 8 This Scientology policy directive was issued 9 after the death of Mr. Hubbard and clarifies the 10 issues of new policies coming out after that time. 11 Exhibit 295 is a document entitled "Ron's 12 Journal" dated 31 December, 1995. 13 THE COURT: 1985? 14 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: You said '95, I thought. 16 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, it is Exhibit 295 issued 17 in 1985. These Ron's Journals, they are in kind of 18 basically a form of a letter issued primarily at the 19 time of -- around the new year, sometimes at other 20 times. 21 Exhibit 296 is an HCO policy letter entitled 22 "Flourish and Prosper." 23 Exhibit 297 is another HCO policy letter dated 24 July 12, 1980 R, revised November 5, 1982, entitled 25 "The Basics of Ethics." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 35 1 That was 297, correct? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 298 is an HCO policy letter 4 dated July 9, 1980 R called "Ethics, Justice and the 5 Dynamics." 6 MR. DANDAR: I suppose this is all rebuttal to 7 something. 8 THE COURT: I -- I presume so. If it is not, 9 why, it is just making a bigger record. 10 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we'll address these. 11 Rather than go into a whole argument about them now, 12 we'll address them in our closing briefs. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. DANDAR: Isn't 298 and 299 the same thing? 15 THE COURT: I don't even have a 299. 16 MR. MOXON: 299 is "The Code of a 17 Scientologist." In Scientology, there are several 18 codes. There is an auditor's code, and it provides 19 Scientologists with guidelines with respect to human 20 rights, justice and social reform issues. 21 MR. DANDAR: It is already in evidence. 22 THE COURT: Is it? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if it is or not 25 so we'll just get it again. If it is, we'll have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 36 1 two copies of it. 2 MR. DANDAR: It happens quite a bit in this 3 case. 4 THE COURT: I think there are a couple of 5 things we have gotten in evidence a couple of times. 6 MR. MOXON: Exhibit Number 300 is called "The 7 Creed of the Church of Scientology." This creed was 8 issued as a succinct statement of Scientology 9 beliefs. 10 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, I have already got 11 this. Duplicate. 12 MR. MOXON: Exhibit 301 is the "Auditor's 13 Code," which I will explain in greater detail in a 14 moment. 15 THE COURT: I do hope you-all understand that 16 some of this stuff, just like a lot of other 17 documents I'm receiving, what weight or what value 18 they may be to me, if any, we'll just have to wait 19 and see. 20 Obviously, a policy letter from L. Ron Hubbard 21 is one thing. An auditor's code, I have no idea 22 where it came from or anything of the sort. 23 MR. MOXON: This was also written by L. Ron 24 Hubbard, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: I'm simply saying, if these things Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 37 1 just come in and I don't even know where they came 2 from or what they are, they won't have a great deal 3 of value. I assume you'll point out what it is you 4 want to point out at some point in time in your 5 closing argument. 6 MR. MOXON: Let me address the auditor's code 7 now, because I also have a short training film which 8 I'm not going to play now but I'll provide to the 9 Court, it is about ten minutes long. And it is 10 called "The Auditor's Code." 11 THE COURT: What is the -- what have we had in 12 this hearing about auditors? 13 MR. MOXON: Well, there has been a lot of 14 allegations with respect to what the auditors would 15 or would not do. 16 For example, with Lisa McPherson, the 17 intentions of auditors in Scientology practices -- 18 THE COURT: The only thing I know of auditors 19 in Lisa McPherson is the testimony from the auditors 20 of the Church of Scientology is she was not capable 21 of being audited. That is the only thing I know of 22 that could possibly be relevant to the wrongful 23 death. 24 And to the counterclaim, I probably couldn't 25 think of anything that would be relevant. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 38 1 MR. MOXON: Well, there has also been testimony 2 from a number of Mr. Dandar's witnesses which are 3 generally attacking, I guess, the level of care and 4 compassion that the auditors in the Church have for 5 the parishioners. And this is -- 6 THE COURT: I don't recall that. And if it 7 came in, I wouldn't find it relevant at all to this 8 hearing. So I don't know why I need to have those. 9 I mean, I just don't recall the testimony. If 10 you're telling me it is there and you are rebutting 11 it, I'll go ahead and let it in. 12 But in truth, I don't know of anything relevant 13 to this hearing except if somebody said that was a 14 lie and she was audited four or five times. I don't 15 think there has been any such testimony, so I assume 16 that is true that she wasn't capable of being 17 audited because she was not well enough. And -- 18 MR. MOXON: Well -- I'm sorry. 19 THE COURT: And that would be the only 20 relevance I know of. 21 But go ahead, if you think this would be 22 helpful to me to understand -- 23 MR. MOXON: I think it would be very helpful. 24 As I say, it's a short video. If the Court wishes 25 to see it, we would like to put it in the record. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 39 1 It is a code of ethics and conduct for auditors 2 to provide greater reality of the Churches views 3 concerning the compassion and care for which 4 auditors must conduct themselves for the good of the 5 parishioners, and the basic standards of ethics, 6 also, for auditors and ministers of the Church. 7 We'll mark this as Exhibit 302. 8 THE COURT: I'm letting this in as something 9 that would be of interest to me. I don't think it 10 has any bearing on this hearing, but -- 11 MR. MOXON: Very good. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I just want to remind you, 13 there is a policy in evidence that we presented that 14 says that an unconscious person could be audited. 15 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. But you haven't 16 suggested that Lisa McPherson was audited. 17 MR. DANDAR: No. She had no auditing at all. 18 THE COURT: Right. 19 MR. DANDAR: Well, let me say, there is no 20 evidence of auditing. 21 THE COURT: Right. 22 MR. MOXON: There is another CD, this is 23 actually a lecture from the founder, from L. Ron 24 Hubbard, entitled, "The Story of Dianetics and 25 Scientology." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 40 1 I would like to admit it as Exhibit 303, which 2 gives, rather than unusual versions of Scientology 3 and Dianetics that have been provided by the 4 plaintiff -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Do I get copies of the CDs and 6 videos, I would hope? 7 MR. MOXON: Yes. 8 MR. DANDAR: And the videos? 9 MR. MOXON: Well, on the videos, what I would 10 like to do with Mr. Dandar, we have a precedent on 11 this. If he comes and can see it, I can arrange -- 12 similar to -- remember how he objected to us having 13 a copy of The Profit? These are our proprietary 14 works. The videos are not sold by the Church. 15 We're happy to have it in the record and 16 certainly will make arrangements for Mr. Dandar to 17 come any time he wants. 18 I gave him a copy of the CD because this is 19 publicly available. 20 THE COURT: I don't see how you can put it in 21 the record and not give him a copy. If it is in the 22 record, it is a public record. So if you don't want 23 to put it in the record, I understand that. Then I 24 think you ought to withdraw it from the record. 25 MR. MOXON: I have given Mr. Dandar a copy. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 41 1 THE COURT: I don't have one, if you meant for 2 me to. I have this. 3 MR. MOXON: I can give you an extra. 4 THE COURT: Did you give me one? 5 MR. MOXON: I made one an exhibit. I gave it 6 to the clerk. But here is a copy for you. 7 MR. DANDAR: So there is just one video and one 8 CD? 9 Madam clerk, the video is what number? 10 THE CLERK: The video is 302. 11 MR. MOXON: The CD was a lecture delivered to 12 Scientologists on the 18th of October, 1958, and 13 gave essentially an anecdotal account of how 14 Mr. Hubbard came to write Dianetics and write 15 Scientology in his own words. 16 THE COURT: Once again, I'm going to tell 17 you-all that when you write your closing argument, 18 I'm not sure that any of this is relevant. I'm 19 letting it in simply because perhaps it has some 20 educational value and I'm always happy to be 21 educated. But the truth of the matter is I don't 22 know it has any relevance to this hearing. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, your Honor, actually you 24 may well be right, just like as I argued, I don't 25 think a lot of the introduction of policies -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 42 1 THE COURT: Right. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- was either relevant or 3 appropriate under the First Amendment. But we 4 talked about that and you said, "Well, just in case, 5 you better get in what you want --" 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: "-- to sort of explain it. 8 THE COURT: I don't want you to spend your 9 whole closing argument talking about some of these 10 later things you are submitting because I'm not 11 sure -- 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, we guarantee you 13 we'll focus on -- 14 THE COURT: The testimony and the admissions. 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- relevant -- 16 THE COURT: It is very hard, once again, for me 17 to sit and read these to see whether or not they 18 really rebut anything or not. If they don't rebut 19 something, they ought not be coming in. If they do, 20 they should. So I'm letting it all in. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 22 THE COURT: Then later we'll look and see if I 23 think it does. And that is really the reason why 24 this is going so quickly. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: We will have a little section Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 43 1 that puts this in perspective. But we also will 2 probably be arguing, too, that most of it is not 3 something that you need or even ought be 4 considering. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: But I think it also might be 7 useful for you to get some greater perspective as to 8 what this is all about. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR. MOXON: Next, Exhibit, 303, is actually one 11 of the few film lectures of L. Ron Hubbard. 12 Mr. Hubbard gave many lectures, over 1,400 13 lectures. Very few of them were filmed. But this 14 one was filmed. It is called "The Classification 15 and Gradation Film." And it represents the release 16 of the first Scientology grade chart. 17 You have heard testimony about the bridge, 18 and -- the left side of the bridge of the audit 19 training, and the right side as to auditing. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. MOXON: Well, this film is about the 22 release of the gradation chart. And it was a 23 lecture given in 1965. I seem to only have one copy 24 with me but I'll provide other copies. 25 THE COURT: All right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 44 1 MR. MOXON: It is 30 minutes long. 2 THE COURT: See, in other words, what you-all 3 have been doing, you are giving the original to the 4 clerk and you are giving me my copy. Anything I 5 have got doesn't go to the clerk. 6 MR. MOXON: That is right. 7 THE COURT: So if this is what you are 8 introducing, it better be to the clerk. 9 MR. DANDAR: Isn't the CD that Number 303? 10 THE CLERK: 304. 11 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, it is 304. 12 MR. DANDAR: What is -- 13 MR. MOXON: The CD is 303. "Classification and 14 Gradation" is 304. 15 MR. DANDAR: Got it. 16 THE COURT: If you don't have copies, how are 17 you going to get copies? I don't want something in 18 the record -- in the official record that either 19 Mr. Dandar or I don't have copies of. 20 MR. MOXON: We'll have additional copies 21 brought down for you and Mr. Dandar. Or Mr. Dandar 22 can come see this one. 23 MR. DANDAR: No. I would like to have my own 24 copy. 25 THE COURT: If you are going to introduce it in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 45 1 the public record, that everything in here is the 2 public record, you'll have to give him a copy of it. 3 MR. MOXON: By the way, your Honor, can we have 4 an agreement on the record that Mr. Dandar won't be 5 putting this on the Internet or giving it out to 6 other people? This is proprietary work that 7 we're -- 8 THE COURT: I would think that anything that 9 has been admitted in this hearing you should be 10 careful of. Mr. Dandar said he doesn't put stuff on 11 the Internet. It seems to appear on the Internet. 12 If you say you don't put it out on the Internet, I 13 don't know who is putting stuff out on the Internet. 14 MR. DANDAR: You know, I had someone -- 15 THE COURT: I could tell you-all I don't really 16 honestly think that things that -- like I said, I 17 don't have a real objection to what we do in here 18 going out on the public airways. I'm not sure that 19 is the purpose, so I don't know what the purpose is. 20 I don't know whether it is to make fun of what we're 21 doing or to criticize what we're doing, or perhaps 22 it is just educational. If that is the case, it is 23 fine. I don't know, if it is part of the public 24 record, if I can ask him not to put it out or 25 anything of the sort. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 46 1 I would anticipate you give him a copy of it. 2 If it is something proprietary, I will -- if I can 3 go to a book store and buy this and he gets a copy 4 of it, he can use it. 5 MR. MOXON: The CD is one thing. The film is 6 not. It is not sold in churches, it is made 7 available to members to see but not sold. 8 THE COURT: Then I'll ask him not to use it 9 outside of this hearing. 10 MR. DANDAR: Very well. 11 THE COURT: This hearing meaning this case. I 12 think I have done that with some things with 13 you-all, I have said some of the E-Mails from LMT 14 and the videos from LMT, I said get my permission to 15 use it outside of this case. That includes this 16 hearing, any trial, if any, any depositions, you 17 know, this whole case. 18 MR. MOXON: And -- 19 THE COURT: So the videos, Mr. Dandar, you are 20 not to -- you can get me an order if you like, but 21 it is on the record here. 22 MR. DANDAR: It is on the record. 23 THE COURT: You are not to distribute it or use 24 it outside of this case without getting my 25 permission. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 47 1 MR. DANDAR: That is fine. 2 MR. MOXON: Thank you. Just to put this film 3 in perspective, as I say, it was a lecture delivered 4 in 1965 by Mr. Hubbard. And as his research 5 continued, later developments were represented on 6 the grade charts. 7 This grade chart that you'll see on the film is 8 a little bit different than the ones that exist 9 today as higher levels were developed by 10 Mr. Hubbard. 11 However, the principles of the grade chart that 12 formed the foundation of the bridge are the same 13 today and as they will be for all time. It was a 14 delivered in a chapel in Saint Hill in Sussex to 15 students of the special briefing course, which is 16 the biggest course for training auditors in 17 Scientology. And that course comprised over 500 18 lectures. And I'll give you a little more reality 19 on that when I show you what is up against the wall. 20 The last film I want to put in evidence is 21 Number 305. And this is entitled "Advice to Persons 22 Being Audited" film. 23 So this is essentially an introductory film -- 24 THE COURT: I'm missing two things here. Maybe 25 I'm not. What is the CD? Is that 303, madam clerk? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 48 1 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am, it is. 2 THE COURT: Then I'm just missing the one you 3 are going to supply. Right? 4 MR. MOXON: That is correct. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. MOXON: This film, "Advice to Persons Being 7 Audited" is also written by L. Ron Hubbard. And its 8 purpose is to provide basic understanding of 9 auditing for persons just beginning. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. MOXON: In that regard it provides basic 12 grounding as to what an auditing session is and 13 basic terms that the Court has heard and may help 14 the Court in understanding some of what you heard. 15 It also expresses the Church's view on drugs in 16 relationship to progress in Scientology that are 17 explained here. 18 And also the E-meter is explained, what an 19 auditing session looks like, and you'll actually see 20 an auditing session. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MOXON: It is only ten minutes long. 23 Now, I also have a book called "The Scientology 24 Handbook." And this is entirely based on the works 25 of L. Ron Hubbard. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 49 1 I don't think I'll put this in the record per 2 se. But I think it would be helpful to the Court 3 and I'll certainly make a copy available to 4 Mr. Dandar. It is so large. 5 But this has a number of the issues that the 6 Court has heard about, and which will explain some 7 things from the perspective of the Church, that the 8 Court can understand the Church's viewpoints on 9 these issues. And I have tabbed several points in 10 the book that would be helpful. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. MOXON: And the points I have tabbed -- 13 this is heavy -- 14 THE COURT: It is heavy. Okay. 15 MR. MOXON: -- includes the fundamentals of 16 Scientology, a description of the bridge, as 17 witnesses have discussed the auditing and training 18 sides of the bridge, the goal of man and dynamics, 19 you heard quite a bit about the dynamics, several 20 witnesses addressed this, the eight dynamics of 21 existence. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 MR. MOXON: I also tabbed a section called 24 "Determining Optimum Solutions" which goes to the 25 issue of the greatest good. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 50 1 THE COURT: Greatest good for the greatest 2 number? 3 MR. MOXON: That is right. 4 I have also tabbed a section on -- 5 THE COURT: That is the components of 6 understanding? 7 MR. MOXON: It is right before that. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. MOXON: But -- 10 THE COURT: All right, go ahead. I'll assume 11 you have tabbed these. Go ahead. 12 MR. DANDAR: I need to interrupt a second. I'm 13 going to get a copy of the same thing the Judge has, 14 I'll have it tabbed in the same places, correct? 15 MR. MOXON: Sure. 16 MR. DANDAR: Today? 17 MR. MOXON: Sure. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. 19 MR. MOXON: And this includes the Scientology 20 elements of affinity, reality and communication. 21 And some witnesses have testified that they are 22 kind of a twisted version, their description of 23 reality. So we provide to the Court what these 24 issues of affinity, reality and communication really 25 are in Scientology. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 51 1 And there is also a small section tabbed in 2 there on the tone scale which is addressed in the 3 book "Science of Survival," which a couple witnesses 4 talk about. 5 The last three tabs there are on ethics. One 6 is on integrity and honesty, including the use of 7 OWs, overts and withholds, and writing them up, and 8 why it is done, and how Scientologists believe it is 9 helpful to them; indeed, necessary. 10 There is a little section on Scientology 11 ethics. 12 The last section there that I tabbed is on 13 suppressive persons, PTS's. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. MOXON: Now I would like to give you a 16 short tour of this library. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. MOXON: First there are -- all these 19 binders -- 20 THE COURT: What number is this book? 21 MR. MOXON: I haven't marked it as an exhibit, 22 your Honor. 23 THE COURT: This is just for me? 24 MR. MOXON: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar will get a copy? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 52 1 MR. MOXON: That is right. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. MOXON: All of these -- this huge table 4 full here of binders consist of -- 5 THE COURT: Did you-all take a picture of this? 6 MR. MOXON: Yes, we did. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes, we did. 8 MR. MOXON: It is on its way down. 9 MR. DANDAR: I hope I get a color copy of that 10 because I need some momentos. I really -- I saw the 11 guy do it. I was very impressed with his equipment 12 that he was putting up, very professional. 13 MR. MOXON: We'll make sure Mr. Dandar has some 14 momentos of this hearing. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. MOXON: These are taped lectures that come 17 in this form. 18 This first one I handed you is -- happens to be 19 from the Saint Hill special briefing course, which 20 is the largest course in Scientology. These taped 21 lectures in cassette form represent the recorded 22 path of Mr. Hubbard's research and development of 23 Scientology and Dianetics. 24 And initially it was only through the recorded 25 medium that Mr. Hubbard made most of the works of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 53 1 Scientology and practices of Scientology known to 2 Scientologists around the world, because in earlier 3 days their organization didn't really exist. And he 4 traveled the world and gave lectures. 5 Therefore, Scientology was taught by 6 Mr. Hubbard through this form by personally 7 instructing students and making these lectures, and 8 then the lectures were then made available to 9 students around the world. 10 The vast majority of these lectures have only 11 been released in very recent years. Most were done 12 in the '50s and '60s. And the project has been 13 going since 1984 to produce further lectures. 14 THE COURT: That is the bottom shelf? 15 MR. MOXON: From here to here (indicating) is 16 what has been released so far, plus -- plus these. 17 Each one of these is filled with cassettes like you 18 have seen. They'll be made into CDs at some point. 19 THE COURT: Is this the same thing I saw a copy 20 of one that was -- not a copy, an actual course that 21 was -- Mr. Dandar had one? 22 MR. MOXON: No. But I will show you an example 23 of what he was showing you. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. MOXON: He held up something called Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 54 1 PTS/SP -- a course book like this. 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. MOXON: But these are just binders of taped 4 lectures that are company courses. And there are 5 1,418 recorded lectures of L. Ron Hubbard, if you 6 can imagine. It was a huge body of work, and many 7 are still not -- still not published. There are 8 about 600 that haven't been released. But I just 9 wanted to give you some reality on that, Judge. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. MOXON: And on this small table here are 12 books. And these are -- are considered the basic 13 books of Scientology. They represent the foundation 14 of Scientology and Dianetics. 15 This book here is the first -- well, one of the 16 first books written. This is the one that really 17 kicked off the main body of the organization in 18 1950, "Dianetics, The Modern Science of Mental 19 Health." 20 And as most of the lectures couldn't be made 21 broadly, these books were published, mostly -- 22 mostly all in the '50s. And they provide basically 23 a summary of Scientology works and Dianetics works. 24 As you can see, there are quite a few of them. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 55 1 MR. MOXON: Now the volumes. Here we have 2 these green volumes. You have heard about green 3 volumes and red volumes? 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. MOXON: Green volumes are the 6 administrative technology of Scientology. And these 7 green volumes have all of the policy letters written 8 by Mr. Hubbard. 9 In the auditing technology, that could be 10 considered what is known in Scientology as the first 11 dynamic, that is, of self, survival of an 12 individual. So that -- this concerns auditing. 13 But the green volumes concern what is known in 14 Scientology as the third dynamic or groups, and how 15 a group is organized and so -- so it can survive 16 better. 17 The dynamics concern survival, survival in the 18 first dynamic, survival in the third dynamic of an 19 organization or a group. 20 Now, the red volumes are all the different 21 technical bulletins. So when you have seen 22 something that says "HCO policy letter," that is 23 these green volumes. Red volumes are all the 24 technical bulletins and kind of more generically 25 called the tech of Scientology. And these begin in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 56 1 chronological order starting in 1950, and go up 2 through the years. 3 To give you an example here -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. MOXON: -- this is the first volume 6 starting in 1950, even before the Church of 7 Scientology itself was formed as an entity. 8 When Mr. Hubbard passed away, he left behind a 9 number of writings to be released at a future date 10 when certain requirements were met. 11 For example, there is a new building under 12 construction in Clearwater, you may have driven by 13 it, across the street from the Ft. Harrison. 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 MR. MOXON: Well, that concerns a rundown 16 written by Mr. Hubbard called "Super Power." And at 17 the time that was put together, the physical needs 18 for delivering super power wasn't developed. And 19 that is being developed now so that this new 20 rundown, super power, can be delivered. 21 THE COURT: I don't understand that, new 22 rundown, you mean like a new auditing, like the 23 introspection rundown? 24 MR. MOXON: Precisely. 25 THE COURT: So a super power rundown would be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 57 1 an auditing process? 2 MR. MOXON: That is right. 3 THE COURT: I don't see what it has to do with 4 the building, I guess. 5 MR. MOXON: I just gave you that as an example. 6 There is a building that will be delivering that. 7 But there are a number of works by Mr. Hubbard and 8 notes and lectures as to -- as to new technology. 9 So some new technology comes out based solely and 10 strictly on the books of L. Ron Hubbard in some of 11 these bulletins. 12 THE COURT: What you mean, that rundown will be 13 offered in the new building? 14 MR. MOXON: That is right. But this technology 15 was -- evolved and refined throughout the years. 16 And in some top training courses, in fact, an 17 auditor would be required to read from the beginning 18 to the end the entire evolution of Scientology 19 auditing technology in the books you have in your 20 hand right now. 21 THE COURT: Where would it be -- I was looking 22 in this, I didn't know if this is where I would find 23 it or not. But where would it be in the books if I 24 wanted to see -- not if I wanted to see -- but if I 25 wanted to see like Policy Letter Number 50? Are Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 58 1 they numbered in one of those -- in the greens? Or 2 reds? Or -- 3 MR. MOXON: Well, here, let me show you this. 4 THE COURT: Because I know the reds don't seem 5 to have any -- 6 MR. MOXON: In each book -- I'll hand to you a 7 policy book -- if you look in the front, there is, 8 of course, a table of contents. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I see. 10 MR. MOXON: And in the back there is an index. 11 Now, these are separated by each different -- 12 THE COURT: This is what I was looking for. 13 MR. MOXON: Okay. 14 THE COURT: In other words, this would have -- 15 this is what I have been seeing, just one after the 16 other. So these would all be found in some sort of 17 bound volume? 18 MR. MOXON: Absolutely. These are the actual 19 policies of the Church. And there is -- here I'm 20 showing you a policy index. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. MOXON: So if you were to look up some 23 issue, if you wanted to know about -- 24 THE COURT: Introspection rundown. 25 MR. MOXON: Well, that would be in the red Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 59 1 volumes. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. MOXON: In fact, I'll show you that. Let 4 me show you that. 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. MOXON: This is -- this is a course pack, 7 your Honor, for the introspection rundown. And in 8 the introspection rundown course pack, it -- it 9 selects from the works of L. Ron Hubbard, from his 10 technical bulletins, various matters that a student 11 needs -- student auditor needs or auditor needs to 12 be trained to be able to deliver the introspection 13 rundown. 14 And if you -- look at the first tab, if you 15 would. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. MOXON: There is an issue called "Handling 18 the psychotic." 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. MOXON: And this, again, will show the 21 evolution of Mr. Hubbard's thought in how to develop 22 ultimately leading to the introspection rundown. 23 And I tabbed here in this book in front of you 24 the same issue. All of the issues that you will 25 find in the course packs will be in these bulletins. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 60 1 "Handling the psychotic" then would appear in this 2 first volume of the technical bulletins, the same 3 issue. 4 THE COURT: Volume 1, Number 6. Okay. 5 MR. MOXON: And the same would be true as -- as 6 an auditor is trained to read these various issues 7 written by the founder concerning how one would 8 handle someone who has the condition that is 9 displayed -- for someone who needs an introspection 10 rundown, in psychotics or psychosis, and eventually 11 as you go through the years in this, you'll find you 12 come up to the actual introspection rundown, the 13 technical breakthrough of 1973. 14 THE COURT: Who would take this, the case 15 supervisor? 16 MR. MOXON: Well, a case supervisor would study 17 it. But you have to be at a certain level to even 18 do this course. You'll see in the classification 19 and gradation film there is -- in fact, I can show 20 you in here. 21 THE COURT: I guess an auditor would need to 22 know this, wouldn't he? 23 MR. MOXON: An auditor in training. You would 24 have to be at a certain pretty high level that we 25 would call a Class 5 auditor to even be able to do Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 61 1 it. 2 I'm showing you here in the handbook a copy of 3 grade chart, gradation chart, also known as the 4 bridge. And in order to do this course you have to 5 be trained up here to a level of Class 5. And once 6 you are at that level, you have done all of the 7 preliminary training levels, so you can do -- the 8 basic Scientology auditing, then you can do a 9 specialty course like this to be -- 10 THE COURT: So you just don't go in the first 11 day you are -- you joined the Church and say, "I 12 want to take this course"? 13 MR. MOXON: Lord, no. You have to be well 14 trained in Scientology. Scientology auditors are 15 very well trained. 16 But let me show you this one, this issue. I 17 pulled out Volume 10 of the technical bulletins 18 which in chronological order will have this first 19 issue of the introspection rundown. You remember 20 there were some witnesses that said, "Well, we don't 21 know, we haven't heard of the introspection 22 rundown." 23 Well, of course it is all right there in the 24 volumes. They are all in chronological order, and 25 these are available to all Scientologists. And, in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 62 1 fact, all Scientologists are encouraged to purchase 2 these volumes for their own study, as well as 3 training by auditors. 4 And one of these booklets here, this real big 5 one of the technical volumes, is auditing rundowns. 6 And this one -- all of the various rundowns of 7 Scientology are included. And introspection rundown 8 is also included here. The same issue. 9 THE COURT: So these are available to people to 10 purchase or -- 11 MR. MOXON: Sure. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. MOXON: Absolutely. Now, to be trained to 14 deliver it, you, of course, have to be a Scientology 15 minister. 16 THE COURT: Sure. 17 MR. MOXON: You have to have the prerequisites 18 to deliver it and deliver it competently. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. MOXON: We'll mark the introspection 21 rundown, actually, as an exhibit, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. MOXON: That would be next Exhibit -- 24 MR. DANDAR: 306. 25 MR. MOXON: 306? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 63 1 THE COURT: That is this one right here? 2 MR. MOXON: Yes. The course pack of the 3 introspection rundown. 4 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me? 5 MR. MOXON: Yes. Yes. 6 THE COURT: I'll give you back the red book. 7 MR. MOXON: It is good exercise, hauling these 8 books. 9 THE COURT: Okay. What number is this? 10 MR. MOXON: That is -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Can't I get the same kind the 12 Court gets? 13 THE COURT: Oh, Mr. Dandar. Put it in your 14 own -- put it in your own -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: The last one was 306. 16 MR. MOXON: 306 is the introspection rundown. 17 THE COURT: Did you get one, madam clerk? 18 THE CLERK: No, Judge. 19 THE COURT: You want me to give her this after 20 I'm done with it? 21 MR. MOXON: Yes. 22 Now, there is another group of books here, 23 these blue books -- 24 THE COURT: I'll tell you what, do you have a 25 copy like that? If you do -- sometimes I like to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 64 1 make notes on stuff. And I hate to make notes on 2 something that might become an original. So -- 3 MR. MOXON: That one is yours. I have given 4 the clerk the good copy. 5 THE COURT: So I'll keep this. I'll keep one 6 in the notebook. And the number -- you don't mind 7 if I write on this? 8 MR. MOXON: That is yours, your Honor. 9 MR. WEINBERG: 306. 10 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 11 MR. MOXON: All right, next stop on the tour is 12 the research and discovery series. Now, these books 13 represent transcripts of Mr. Hubbard's lectures. 14 Obviously it is easier to read, sometimes, a 15 transcript than this book of words in these 16 lectures. But to date only 15 of these have been 17 made available. And the Church is still 18 transcribing lectures. Some of the tape-recorded 19 lectures which were made as much as 50 years ago 20 have -- unfortunately, they were original copies, 21 they have deteriorated so much that the tapes are 22 very difficult to hear. And so everything is being 23 transcribed in a -- in a transcription form. 24 THE COURT: What did Mr. Miscavige mean in his 25 New Year's speech when he indicated that everything Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 65 1 has been now put on plates and all of the plates 2 were in vaults and they could withstand up to atomic 3 bomb force? Would this be the plates that make up 4 printings of these books? 5 MR. MOXON: Actually, they were put in a 6 different form. As you know, Scientologists believe 7 we're going to be here a long time; no matter what 8 happens to this world, there is going to be 9 Scientology in the future, even if there is an 10 atomic war. 11 There are plates that are put together in a 12 form, like in a titanic form, so regardless of what 13 happens in the future of our society, at some point 14 the works of Mr. Hubbard will still be available. 15 THE COURT: So the plates are actually plates 16 where you could run off the books? 17 MR. MOXON: Sure. That is right. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. MOXON: There is another thing. We 20 mentioned this in another hearing, "Background and 21 Ceremonies" book. 22 THE COURT: Yes, I have that. I have that. 23 That was given to me in this hearing or -- mine has 24 gold on it. 25 MR. MOXON: Oh, it does? That is a nice one. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 66 1 THE COURT: Is there another one that has gold 2 on it? 3 MR. MOXON: No. 4 THE COURT: I have one that looks like this, 5 and I thought it had gold leaf on it. 6 MR. MOXON: Well, this book has been for 7 marriage ceremonies, ordinations, funeral 8 ceremonies. 9 THE COURT: This is it. I have this. 10 MR. MOXON: It also has a number of sermons, 11 sermons delivered to groups. So this is essentially 12 a book for delivery of Scientology services to 13 groups, and it includes group auditing from the 14 actual sermons themselves. But it's a compilation 15 taken from the books and reported lectures of 16 Mr. Hubbard. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, when I indicate to you 18 I have this, this is not that anybody has given this 19 to me in some ex parte fashion. 20 When I had the criminal case, certain books 21 were provided with tabs because of certain 22 references being referred to. And, quite frankly, 23 once I had -- which I had for a long time. And I 24 had all kinds of boxes for a long time. And I think 25 by the time I finally got rid of all of the boxes, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 67 1 had become involved in the civil case. So I just 2 thought, "Well, I'll keep the books because I bet 3 I'll have them referred to again." And, you know 4 what, sure enough, I have indeed. So I have that 5 book. 6 MR. MOXON: The last book I want to show you is 7 a book -- 8 THE COURT: I have this one. 9 MR. MOXON: Good. This is "What is 10 Scientology." 11 THE COURT: "What is Scientology." This is one 12 of the ones I have -- the other one I have. And the 13 other one I have like this is tabbed, but I'm sure 14 it is tabbed with things that Mr. Fugate and -- were 15 you on that, Sandy? 16 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I was. 17 THE COURT: -- wanted me to see in the criminal 18 case. But I do have this. 19 MR. MOXON: This book is a companion to the 20 "Scientology Handbook." The "Scientology Handbook" 21 I think includes kind of a "how to" on a lot of the 22 issues and general concepts and doctrines of 23 Scientology. 24 And "What is Scientology book is an 25 encyclopedic reference on Scientology. It has been Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 68 1 compiled in exact accordance with Mr. Hubbard's 2 instructions, and it includes statistical figures 3 showing growth of the Church, new churches. And it 4 is periodically updated to reflect expansion, but 5 otherwise the content remains unchanged. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. MOXON: You have a copy of that? 8 THE COURT: Yes. I'm just pretty sure I have 9 this. Yes, I do. 10 MR. MOXON: Well, that is the end of my tour. 11 THE COURT: Now I know what it is. This was 12 given to me in the criminal case. I didn't know 13 what the front even meant. I presume that is the 14 bridge? 15 MR. MOXON: Exactly right. 16 THE COURT: I did not know that then. 17 MR. WEINBERG: We should have done a tour back 18 then. 19 MR. MOXON: Any questions, your Honor? 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Probably if that would have 21 continued, you would have gotten the tour. 22 Fortunately -- 23 THE COURT: Yes, if the case continued, I 24 probably would have been through the books. 25 MR. MOXON: That -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 69 1 THE COURT: No, I have no questions. Thank 2 you. I did have the one question and I think you 3 have answered it. 4 MR. MOXON: Thank you. 5 MR. WEINBERG: So we would offer 292 through 6 306. 7 THE COURT: All right. Those are the Church 8 policy letters and some -- 9 MR. WEINBERG: Those other things. I think 10 that is where we are, madam clerk, 306? 11 THE CLERK: That is correct. 12 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, thank you for your 15 indulgence. 16 THE COURT: Yes. I think this one was not 17 meant to be given to me -- oh, yes, that one was. 18 That is tabbed. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Oh, yes. That I did not have. 21 It is ten until three. Shall we break now for 22 the afternoon break, or -- 23 MR. FUGATE: Let me give you this and that will 24 complete this. This is 291, which is the composite 25 exhibit, and what I did is it is A through H. Each Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 70 1 individual affidavit I marked at the bottom. You 2 can put your number on. I'll give it to Mr. Dandar. 3 And they're all virtually the same, Judge. 4 And they are affidavits of various captains 5 within the Sea Org, and they basically state under 6 oath that to their knowledge there has never been a 7 position known as the captain of the Sea Org, and 8 they tell you how long they have been in for that 9 affidavit -- for each individual purpose. 10 And they indicate that they know Mr. Miscavige 11 to be a captain, as they are, and that they have 12 always known him or referred to him as chairman of 13 the board of RTC. 14 And each one is identical. It is put in for 15 the purpose of rebuttal of that. 16 I'm now giving Mr. Dandar one that is A through 17 H. Each one is individually marked. And with that 18 I move it into evidence. 19 And it is time for a break. 20 THE COURT: All right. The number of this, 21 again, was? 22 MR. FUGATE: 291, madam clerk? 23 THE CLERK: Yes, 291. 24 MR. FUGATE: A through H. 25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. We'll be in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 71 1 recess for fifteen minutes. 2 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 4 ______________________________________ 5 THE COURT: One of the things that I'd gotten 6 today, a courtesy copy of, was noticing of filing of 7 Stacy Brooks' third affidavit. Is that going to be 8 introduced? 9 MR. FUGATE: I haven't seen it, but I suppose 10 if that is what your Honor said, if that is the one 11 that goes through and addresses her affidavit, I 12 think you indicated Mr. McGowan should file that 13 before the end of the proceedings, but I haven't 14 seen it so -- 15 THE COURT: All right. It is a notice of 16 filing and it's -- it is, "Ms. Brooks, through her 17 counsel, files a third copy of her affidavit 18 pursuant to the request of the Court. This copy 19 will be replaced by the sworn original when it is 20 received." And then it is signed, I believe. This 21 is Mr. McGowan so obviously he's gotten -- it is -- 22 a faxed copy and he's going to file the original 23 when he gets it. 24 MR. FUGATE: Should we make it a court exhibit 25 or -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 72 1 MR. WEINBERG: We can make it one of our 2 exhibits. That is fine. 3 THE COURT: Yes, I think it probably should be. 4 I'm sure it is in response to something I requested. 5 This is my copy. This is all I have got. There is 6 a certificate of service that says that this was 7 sent to -- let's see, this would be the defendant's 8 lawyers, Mr. Dandar -- well, just a slew of lawyers, 9 Mr. Lirot, Mr. Howie -- I mean, it looks like 10 everybody has been sent a copy of it and this is my 11 copy. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to look at my list 13 here. Have -- did we mark Mr. Minton's other 14 affidavits as exhibits or did we just -- 15 THE COURT: I don't know. 16 MR. WEINBERG: -- all agree since they were 17 filed they were part of the record? 18 THE COURT: I can't tell you that. 19 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, let me make a 20 suggestion as a housekeeping matter, when we get to 21 the end we'll figure that out, if they are marked as 22 numbers we'll mark that the last number because 23 obviously I don't have one to give to Mr. Dandar and 24 vice versa. 25 THE COURT: Right. I would like to make it a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 73 1 number if at all possible just so when we refer to 2 it -- there are so many affidavits, for example, of 3 Ms. Brooks. 4 MR. FUGATE: Right, well -- 5 THE COURT: Most of the affidavits have 6 numbers. 7 MR. FUGATE: Well, I just had given to the 8 clerk some things to premark and I think the next 9 available number would be 311. 10 THE CLERK: Yes. 11 MR. FUGATE: Could we mark it 311 then? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. FUGATE: Can somebody keep track of that 14 for me because the sands of time are running out of 15 the hour glass here, Judge. 16 THE COURT: I am sure the original will be 17 filed in the court file, so this may not be the best 18 thing to do, but it just seems to me -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Give it a number. 20 THE COURT: -- give it a number. 21 MR. WEINBERG: It's a copy of a sworn 22 affidavit, though, right? 23 THE COURT: It's a copy of a sworn affidavit. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I think just give it a number 25 and we'll offer it as our Exhibit Number 311. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 74 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, while we're on the 3 housekeeping matters, the box next to the clerk is 4 videos of all of the depositions -- video excerpts 5 that we've played throughout the hearing. We're 6 going to mark it as Composite 307. 7 THE COURT: All right -- 8 MR. FUGATE: And rather than take your time in 9 this proceeding, we'll come up with some agreement 10 like we did before in the other hearings as to how 11 we identify them, A, B, C, D, so that the record is 12 complete. But what I'm offering to you as 307 is 13 videos of all of the clips that we played, and we've 14 given Mr. Dandar a box of all of the clips -- 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. FUGATE: -- as well. 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I was told about this Stacy 18 Brooks affidavit this morning from my office. She's 19 trying to change her testimony at this hearing. I 20 don't have a chance to cross-examine her on that new 21 affidavit so I would ask you not to consider it. 22 THE COURT: Well, it's -- I think what we did, 23 we meaning me, I think what I did was I asked her to 24 go through her affidavits and indicate whether there 25 was anything she believed in her affidavits that was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 75 1 incorrect. I don't know what this is myself. I 2 haven't read it. I saw it at noon and I meant to 3 bring it in at noon. I just forgot. I saw it again 4 during the break and I brought it in. It says 5 received July 18, is that today? 6 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 7 THE COURT: So I got it today. So I couldn't 8 even tell you what is in it. 9 MR. DANDAR: All right. 10 THE COURT: But if that is it where I asked her 11 to send me an affidavit indicating any of her 12 declarations that she felt were lies, or incorrect, 13 that she needed to do that. And so that may be what 14 this is. I'll have to look at it. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. I don't know the 16 entirety of it either except it is just my basic 17 understanding she's trying to change some of her 18 testimony. 19 THE COURT: Well, let's see. 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm not sure. 21 THE COURT: Let me take just a minute and look 22 at it. Yes, see, here is what she says, right at 23 the beginning: "I have been admonished by this 24 honorable Court to review the affidavits and 25 declarations that I made in other cases and to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 76 1 advise this Court whether my testimony in those 2 sworn depositions was true at the time those 3 affidavits and declarations were made. I have done 4 so and this affidavit recounts the results of that 5 review." 6 So I don't think that would mean it would have 7 anything to do with her testimony in this case. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 9 MR. DANDAR: As long as she doesn't all of a 10 sudden for the first time say in this affidavit or 11 that affidavit "I lied," because that is not what 12 she said in this hearing. She said all her prior 13 affidavits were true or did not contain lies. 14 THE COURT: My recollection is she said she 15 would have to read them. But -- but -- but, you 16 know, I understand that, if she's tried to change 17 something is critical and she testified subject to 18 cross-examination and there is something different 19 in the affidavit it does not get the same weight, 20 so -- so I will consider it. I don't know what it 21 is. 22 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 MR. FUGATE: The next exhibit which I have had 25 the clerk mark and the original is up there is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 77 1 Defendant's Exhibit 308. It is the newly amended 2 affidavit of Mr. Moxon. And what I have done -- if 3 the Court wants us to submit another one, I will -- 4 I have drawn a line through the paragraphs 2, 3, 4 5 and 6, and Paragraph 5 is what I'm going to offer, 6 the -- as the authenticating affidavit for a 7 deposition of Mr. Prince's fiancee, Deneen Phillips. 8 And Mr. Dandar, this -- this is in rebuttal to 9 Mr. Dandar's testimony yesterday when he stated that 10 when Mr. Moxon took the deposition of Deneen 11 Phillips, Jesse Prince's fiancee, he asked, "Isn't 12 it true," meaning Mr. Moxon asked, "isn't it true 13 that Mr. Prince and Ken Dandar are engaged in drug 14 dealings, illegal arms dealings and some other 15 crimes." 16 The entire deposition is attached to 308 and 17 there are no questions like that in the deposition. 18 So that is the only way I know to handle it. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: And I'll give a copy to Mr. Dandar 21 and I have a copy -- unfortunately I wrote at the 22 top 308 before I gave it to you. 23 THE COURT: Did you make sure that the clerk's 24 copy also had those portions that I indicated he 25 would have to testify to marked through? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 78 1 MR. FUGATE: Yes, I did. I'll show the Court. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. FUGATE: The next exhibit will be 309 and 4 I'll hand it up to your Honor. It is in two 5 volumes. The original I have filed with the clerk, 6 marked for identification with the clerk. And this 7 is a -- obviously I don't expect the Court to go 8 through it at the moment. 9 This is a harassment time line, if you will, 10 which has been compiled since 1991. There is an 11 authenticating affidavit at the beginning of it by 12 Mr. William Drescher who indicates in the affidavit 13 that he compiled this over the period of time with 14 Church personnel to reflect threats against the 15 Church and other incidents of harassment. 16 Now, I have asked that it be modified in this 17 way, which I think may make it convenient, I'll give 18 Mr. Dandar back his copy. I have asked that for the 19 sake of whatever consideration that the Court would 20 want to give it, that it be -- it be color-coded, 21 and I have asked that it be color-coded in this way 22 and I want to make sure the record is correct here. 23 Anything that is in bold represents a serious 24 attack or a threat on the Church such as a bomb, a 25 bomb threat, such as a shooting, a staff member Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 79 1 walking down the street in Clearwater with a BB gun 2 or a dart gun, or all of these incidents which have 3 occurred. In fact, many incidents like that of 4 actual violence to parishioners and staff members in 5 Clearwater in my tenure in representing the Church, 6 I have been involved in and they are tabbed out 7 whenever there is one, there is a police report, so 8 it is documented for the Court's purposes as to that 9 specific incident. 10 I think it -- the italics will represent, when 11 you see it, an incident that happens in Clearwater. 12 If it is blue -- marked in blue, it's -- it's a 13 threat or an E-Mail or some sort of publication by 14 someone who has been identified as associated with 15 LMT. 16 And the red is a threat or an attack on David 17 Miscavige individually, which you have heard 18 testimony about throughout, such as putting the 19 coordinates of his office on -- you know, on a 20 Global Positioning Satellite System which could go 21 right to the office at Hemet that you have heard 22 about. 23 And this -- with the authenticating 24 affidavit -- has each place that there is a 25 documenting exhibit, it's noted, such as tab 60, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 80 1 whatever, whatever it happens to be, you'll find the 2 document that authenticates whatever the harassment 3 incident that it indicates it is therefore 4 documented. 5 And I can tell you that I think it is something 6 that the Court should consider. I think it is 7 something that the Court should consider in light -- 8 and in rebuttal, if you will, too, the testimony you 9 heard about the Stacy Brooks harassment time line 10 that Mr. Dandar introduced into evidence and asked a 11 variety of questions about, in your questions of 12 Mr. Shaw and Mr. Dandar's questions of Mr. Shaw 13 today there were questions about security, the 14 Church having security people. 15 And as I say, this will sort of give you the 16 history of a variety of incidents that have 17 occurred. And as you read through it, I feel having 18 read through it, believe it or not, you'll see -- 19 for instance, if you remember some of the picket 20 signs -- 21 THE COURT: If you are introducing something, 22 see if counsel has an objection. 23 MR. DANDAR: I do have an objection. This has 24 nothing to do with me. It has nothing to do with 25 Bob Minton, or the Lisa McPherson Trust. It is rank Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 81 1 hearsay. It is irrelevant. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. I'll receive it. 3 MR. FUGATE: This is your Honor's copy and the 4 original is filed with the clerk. 5 THE COURT: I think that it bears on several 6 things. Some of the allegations deal with, you 7 know, whether the Church has good basis for having 8 surveillance, for having folks watch for security 9 reasons. I think it also tends to, you know, 10 establish that some of what is going on here is a 11 tit for tat, quite frankly. Neither side will admit 12 that, but that is something what I might use it for. 13 MR. FUGATE: I'll quit while I'm ahead and move 14 right to the next. The next exhibit I would propose 15 to admit for the Court -- for the Court to admit is 16 actually already part of the record in this case, 17 but I would like to give it a specific number for 18 this hearing. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: It is in rebuttal to Mr. Prince's 21 testimony regarding Earle Cooley. And if you'll 22 recall, Earl Cooley was and is a Church -- an 23 attorney that represents the Church. And Mr. Prince 24 basically under oath said that he, Mr. Cooley, had 25 suborned perjury and that he, Mr. Cooley, was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 82 1 present at a meeting in 1983 that Mr. Miscavige and 2 others were present at where the original order was 3 given to destroy the PC folders that are here before 4 you. 5 And also it goes into other areas that 6 Mr. Prince has addressed in his affidavit, which is 7 the affidavit that gave rise to the fifth amended 8 complaint. I can't even remember what exhibit 9 number that is, but you know which one I'm talking 10 about, it is the August '99 affidavit. 11 This 310 is Mr. Cooley's affidavit that was 12 filed in -- I'll give you the date here -- I believe 13 October of 1999 in response to -- in rebuttal to at 14 that time the '99 affidavit. 15 And I would invite the Court to read it in the 16 fact it does rebut essentially everything that 17 Mr. Prince has testified to about a takeover, about 18 guns being drawn on people, about pulping the PC 19 folders. I think Paragraph 9, for instance, 20 Mr. Cooley notes, although Mr. Prince said that 21 he -- Mr. Cooley was present at a meeting in 1983 -- 22 THE COURT: Sounds like you are testifying. 23 That is unfair, improper. If you have an affidavit, 24 you are lucky if I'll allow that in. I sure don't 25 want the record to be full with Lee Fugate trying to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 83 1 testify. 2 MR. FUGATE: No more testimony, Judge. Here is 3 the affidavit. 4 THE COURT: All right. This is already part of 5 this record? 6 MR. FUGATE: It is part of the case record. 7 THE COURT: Court file. 8 MR. FUGATE: Court file. And I just ask it 9 be -- 10 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar? 11 MR. DANDAR: Objection -- well, it is already 12 part of the case file so -- 13 THE COURT: Yes, it is already part of the case 14 file, so we'll take it -- for whatever value an 15 affidavit has versus live testimony subject to 16 cross-examination. 17 MR. DANDAR: And there is also other testimony 18 of Vicki Aznaran, president of RTC, in this file. 19 THE COURT: There is so much testimony in this 20 case, I couldn't even begin to tell you what is in 21 or not. 22 MR. DANDAR: She -- 23 THE COURT: But this is already part of our 24 court -- you know, our court file. I would hate to 25 ask the clerk to find it. But it is part of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 84 1 court file. 2 MR. FUGATE: The reason I pulled it out, Judge, 3 is for that very reason. 4 THE COURT: I'll give it a number, Number 310. 5 MR. DANDAR: I just point out for the record 6 and for your Honor to make a note, Plaintiff's 7 Exhibit 103, which was filed in August or September 8 of 1999 to add parties, is the Vicki Aznaran 9 deposition excerpts, president of RTC. 10 Mr. Prince was in RTC at the time she made that 11 deposition -- gave that deposition. And she said a 12 truckload of PC folders were pulped. So this is 13 while Mr. Prince was still in -- still in the Sea 14 Org, not RTC, when she gave that deposition. 15 THE COURT: You know, one of the good things 16 about this is that we'll be able to see what they 17 rely on in closing argument and then you'll be able 18 to remind me of that. So I won't have to remember 19 that. Because I guarantee you I won't. So if they 20 raise something and you want me to remember 21 something, you be sure you tell me about that. 22 Okay? 23 MR. DANDAR: I sure will. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, I'm going to offer 25 a copy of the taped interview of Jesse Prince on Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 85 1 November 1, 1992 with Mr. Rathbun. Several points 2 on this. 3 The reason we're offering the video of this 4 interview is to impeach the testimony of Mr. Prince 5 with respect to certain aspects of that. He said it 6 was under coercion; he said that there are people 7 surrounding him in the room, that Mr. Sutter was in 8 there and there were other people in there. He said 9 that Mr. Rathbun made him change the date to an 10 inaccurate date. 11 The videotape puts the true perspective on this 12 and shows that is not true. Otherwise, we would be 13 introducing the transcript which has been introduced 14 in numerous other cases -- or at least one other 15 case, has been on the Internet. 16 The reason we want to introduce the video is 17 because in other cases, and in this case, Mr. Prince 18 has said that interview -- in which he said things 19 which are in direct opposition to his testimony here 20 on such issues as the existence and meaning of fair 21 game, that Mr. Miscavige was not running RTC when 22 Mr. Prince was there because Mr. Miscavige was in a 23 different position, that Mr. Miscavige didn't run 24 all corporations, his explanation of what the GO, 25 removal of the GO, is. All that is different in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 86 1 this interview. Mr. Prince's explanation is it was 2 coerced. The video shows it wasn't coerced. 3 Your Honor raised a question why was this 4 videod -- well, this was a unique situation. 5 Mr. Prince, Ms. Aznaran, Mr. Broeker attempted on 6 their own to -- to revive the scriptures and 7 basically assume the management of Scientology, at 8 least that is what evidence in the record shows. 9 Ms. Aznaran had left, had signed some releases when 10 she left, had received consideration, and then she 11 had brought a suit for 70 million dollars and said, 12 "Oh, those releases, I was coerced into doing them." 13 And I was involved in that case, as were a 14 number of other counsel at the time. And -- and 15 when Mr. Prince was leaving there was a litigation 16 situation. He was directly -- this interview was -- 17 in fact, the purpose of the interview was to 18 interview Mr. Prince because he was a witness in 19 that case and that case was expected to go to trial 20 at sometime in the near future. 21 And it was considered important that 22 Mr. Prince, who had previously been aligned with 23 Ms. Aznaran and Mr. Broeker, was concerned, well, 24 maybe he'll say the same thing she did. And so as 25 the tape shows, Mr. Prince was very much aware that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 87 1 it was being recorded, he had no expectation of 2 privacy in the interview. He knew the purpose of 3 the interview and he was not coerced and that is the 4 purpose of showing the video. 5 I think this is the only video of any person in 6 a similar situation because of the unique situation 7 of that particular situation. You will notice there 8 were no videos of Mr. Franks or Mr. Young or 9 Ms. Young or whatever. 10 The fact is, however, you know, Scientology is 11 a young and new religion. And throughout history -- 12 and I don't need to repeat this to your Honor -- 13 MR. DANDAR: I'll object. This is a lot of 14 argument and a lot of testimony. 15 MR. LIEBERMAN: Actually I should say it is 16 argument in response to the point as to what the 17 Court raised. 18 Often litigation develops with young movements. 19 The Mormons have been involved in a lot of -- the 20 Christian Scientists, Jehovah's Witnesses. And we 21 have seen the Church of Scientology had more than 22 its fair share of litigation. I actually think the 23 amount of litigation is that -- that era may be 24 ending because this is really the only major case 25 left in the country in which the Church of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 88 1 Scientology has litigation. 2 But at the time there was litigation involved 3 and so it was -- when Mr. Prince was leaving it was 4 considered important to protect the Church by 5 obtaining an interview, by obtaining releases and by 6 making sure that he would not come along and say 7 what Ms. Aznaran -- "they were pointing like a gun 8 at my head." There is no gun at his head. You can 9 see the interview. We're not going to play it here. 10 We would like to just give it to your Honor and 11 offer it for that purpose. 12 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Dandar? 13 MR. DANDAR: The fact -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: It would be 312, I think. 15 MR. DANDAR: It is 311. But the fact remains 16 that -- 17 MR. FUGATE: It is 312. 18 MR. WEINBERG: 312. 19 MR. DANDAR: It was a hidden camera. It is 20 obvious it's a hidden camera. You can see the coin 21 in the camera that is behind some glass. And 22 Mr. Prince does not know it is being videotaped. We 23 asked for them to produce this so we could review it 24 because we've never seen this before and Mr. Prince 25 has never seen this before. He has never known that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 89 1 he was videotaped before during his departure. And 2 we still object to the introduction of this 3 videotape. 4 THE COURT: I can't remember what occurred 5 after the concern that I had, there may be something 6 illegal about videotaping someone who doesn't know 7 they're being videotaped. 8 But something came up after that where I think 9 you either introduced or tried to introduce or I 10 allowed you to introduce something that had some -- 11 some -- I just can't remember -- 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, Mr. Yanny's affidavit 13 deals with a lot of the same allegations in the 14 Aznaran case that are addressed in this discussion, 15 your Honor. And it addresses the content of it, the 16 substantive part of it addresses a lot of the 17 allegations that Mr. Prince has made and that 18 they've submitted all these affidavits for. 19 This was a -- an interview by Mr. Prince that 20 the substantive portion of it -- the transcript of 21 the substantive portion on it has been introduced in 22 other cases. 23 The only reason we want to show the video is 24 because it shows that Mr. Prince is not telling the 25 truth when he says that other people were in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 90 1 room with him, that he is being coerced, it was an 2 oppressive situation, that Mr. Rathbun insisted on 3 changing the date for -- I don't know why he threw 4 that in because it was actually Mr. Prince who 5 corrected the date on it. 6 And it just goes to Mr. Prince's credibility. 7 He comes in here, he testifies. This demonstrates 8 that he was not testifying accurately, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Well, as I said, I can't 10 remember what it was that either came in or I 11 thought I let in that would have been something 12 that -- of a similar nature. 13 I don't know the answer to it. I'm going to 14 let it in. I will figure it all out and maybe I'll 15 kick it out. 16 MR. DANDAR: Well, since he's now using it to 17 try to call Mr. Prince a liar, Mr. Prince demands 18 that they produce his preclear folders during this 19 time, 1992 and 1991, and he is willing to give that 20 to the Court so the Court can see what kind of 21 coercion he was under. 22 THE COURT: Well, what we need to do here is to 23 have a motion filed. I don't -- I don't understand 24 how one relates to the other. They say they are 25 admitting this for a very limited purpose. One is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 91 1 that Mr. Prince indicated that he was under a great 2 deal of pressure. And that this will show that this 3 is not true. Mr. Prince, I heard saying, when it 4 was starting to be played, "Well, everybody had left 5 the room." 6 Well, I will take an affidavit, once he sees 7 it, from him regarding those matters. 8 However, I will still be able to see whether 9 there appeared to be a pressure tactic situation 10 when this was occurring. And a very -- I would say 11 minor matter, but for some reason, because I don't 12 even think he knew what it was, or cared what it 13 was, that he had been asked to put a different date 14 on it or something like that. 15 That is what they are introducing it for. It 16 would seem like that would clear that up. It 17 doesn't seem to be anything so significant that I 18 should keep it out. 19 However, as I indicated to you, I have some 20 problems because it is clear to me Mr. Prince didn't 21 know he was being interviewed. Anybody knows they 22 are being interviewed, it is from the front, not the 23 back. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, he did know he was 25 being interviewed. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 92 1 MR. WEINBERG: No, interviewed was the word you 2 used. 3 THE COURT: Videotaped. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Videotaped. 5 MR. DANDAR: Could we have it on the record 6 they are representing this as the entire unedited 7 videotape of the entire meeting from the very second 8 it started to the very second it was over? 9 THE COURT: I don't know. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Okay. All right. So I'm going to 12 receive it. As I said, I don't -- when I said 13 didn't know he was being interviewed, obviously he 14 knew he was being interviewed. He did not know he 15 was being videotaped. I knew that as soon as I saw 16 he was being videotaped from the rear. When you 17 videotape somebody, you want to see their face, just 18 like on a videotaped deposition. That gave me some 19 concern there might be some illegal purpose to it. 20 I have got it. If I decide that is not really that 21 important of an issue in this case, I have got it 22 and I can see it. 23 Mr. Dandar, if you feel that because of that, 24 that is the only reason why I wouldn't watch it, 25 because it may have been videotaped without his Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 93 1 knowledge, therefore, there is some law that says I 2 shouldn't consider it in this hearing, I would feel 3 differently if we were using it as evidence to 4 convict somebody, for example, of a crime. 5 That is not this. This is a hearing and we're 6 trying to determine things and so I'm not sure that 7 the legality I was so concerned with -- I'm always 8 concerned with legality, but I'm not so sure that 9 should keep it out for the purpose its being offered 10 so I'm going to receive it. 11 You have plenty of time before I will watch it 12 if you want to make some argument to me, you can. 13 If Mr. Prince wants to submit some affidavit there 14 were people there before this occurred and they left 15 the room, I'll let him submit his affidavit. 16 All right? 17 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: All right. What number? 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: 312, I believe, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: I think it is 311. 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay, I'm just going by what 22 Mr. -- 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, 312, because 311 was -- 24 what? 311 is the affidavit you got from Stacy 25 Brooks. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 94 1 THE COURT: Right. Okay. Madam clerk, how are 2 you going to get this ready for me? You have no 3 idea that they would be putting in a thousand 4 exhibits this afternoon. 5 THE CLERK: I'm going to call the office 6 tomorrow morning, Judge -- 7 THE COURT: Tell them you still have work to 8 do? 9 THE CLERK: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Because I'm going to turn right 11 around and hand all this to you, I really do need it 12 fixed up. This is real important. So would you 13 tell them I need you tomorrow? 14 THE CLERK: Yes. 15 THE COURT: There are a couple things that you 16 don't have that I do have, like the videotapes. 17 THE CLERK: Yes. 18 THE COURT: I also have a book -- there have 19 been some big books. I have the volume that was 20 offered by Mr. Dandar that had multiple depositions 21 in it. I have that. 22 THE CLERK: Yes. 23 THE COURT: So if you don't find something, 24 just make a note, "Absent," tell me what it is if 25 you can and I'll know if I have it. Thank you. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 95 1 MR. FUGATE: Home stretch, Judge. Did the 2 photograph of the PC folders go in? I think -- 3 MS. WEST: Yes. 4 THE COURT: I think it did. 5 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, the last three 6 exhibits that I have are videos that I would ask the 7 Court -- well, let me tell you what they are and 8 I'll ask the Court to look at them. 9 There is an authenticating affidavit from 10 Mr. Gary Smith. And he's a parishioner of the 11 Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 12 And he's been -- he's the executive director of 13 NarcAnon Drug and Rehabilitation Program in Cape 14 County, Oklahoma. It's a video of how NarcAnon 15 operates and what it does in its community. It's a 16 service, offers a service through the Church. I 17 have a copy of the video. 18 THE COURT: Why would I want that in this 19 hearing? 20 MR. FUGATE: It's -- let me run through them 21 and tell you what they are. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. FUGATE: They're basically, Judge -- there 24 are two others that are similar videos. One of the 25 new San Francisco mission dedication with an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 96 1 authenticating affidavit by Jenna Elfman who opened 2 it. There is a New York video which is -- with an 3 authenticating affidavit from Bunnie Dugan. And the 4 New York video actually may be of some interest to 5 your Honor for the reason that it is describing the 6 events that -- that the Church volunteers engaged in 7 at Ground Zero after 9/11. Actually it has -- a 8 portion of it you will see Janis Johnson, who is one 9 of the defendants here, giving touch assists to a 10 reporter, demonstrating how touch assists work. 11 And it basically shows -- each of the three 12 videos depict services that Church parishioners 13 provide in their communities, which is contrary to 14 the picture that I think was tried to be portrayed 15 by Mr. Dandar, that this is some sort of, you know, 16 operation -- organization running operations. It's 17 not. It is a valid, legitimate religion. 18 Parishioners believe in Scientology, they go out in 19 their communities and they work in their 20 communities, and these videos reflect that. And if 21 nothing else, I think it would be interesting to the 22 Court. 23 But I would offer those as the next three 24 numbers. 25 THE COURT: All right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 97 1 MR. DANDAR: This is -- this is irrelevant. 2 This has nothing to do with rebuttal. This has 3 something to do with showing how wonderful 4 Scientology is which is not an issue before you 5 today. 6 THE COURT: I agree. I'm going to keep those 7 out. You can give me copies of them. If I have a 8 chance I'll look at them, just because this is a 9 case that I'm working on and I'm always interested, 10 just as I looked -- just as I looked at the other 11 video, was it New Year's Eve? 12 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: But I don't think it has any 14 bearing on this motion. 15 MR. DANDAR: We did not show any videos 16 denigrating Scientology in this hearing. In fact, 17 we showed that New Year's Eve video which was a 18 rather joyful event. 19 THE COURT: I'm not talking about that one. 20 I'm talking about some DVD or video they gave me to 21 watch. 22 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay. 23 THE COURT: After you had given me something to 24 watch, I watched something else. 25 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Well, I would like a copy Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 98 1 of whatever you get. 2 MR. FUGATE: And I'll be glad to provide it, 3 Judge, for the sake of the record -- 4 THE COURT: I think you have got it, that very 5 day you were in court. This isn't something they 6 sent me through the mail or sent me -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Oh, those two videos. No, I'm 8 talking about -- 9 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to give him a copy of 10 these three videos. So the record is complete, I'm 11 going to give the clerk the original authenticating 12 affidavit of Gary Smith, which is the NarcAnon 13 video; the original authenticating affidavit of 14 Jenna Elfman -- 15 THE COURT: She doesn't need it. I'm not 16 allowing it in evidence. She doesn't need it in 17 evidence in this case. I'll take it for whatever 18 you tell me it is, I will look at it and I'll enjoy 19 it, and if I don't, I'll turn it off. 20 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 21 THE COURT: I won't feel compelled to watch 22 this as part of the evidence in this case. 23 MR. DANDAR: As if you don't have anything else 24 to do. 25 MR. FUGATE: Well then, you'll be happy to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 99 1 know -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: We're still waiting for that 3 photograph of this stuff. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Let's for the record mark that 6 as our last exhibit, the photograph. When we get 7 it, we'll have the clerk -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE CLERK: That is 313. 10 THE COURT: 315, right? 312, 13 and 14 I 11 didn't admit. 12 MR. FUGATE: I didn't know if you wanted to 13 mark them -- 14 THE COURT: If that is what you want to do, 15 give them to the clerk showing "not admitted." 16 THE CLERK: ID only? 17 THE COURT: Yes, that is for ID only and you 18 can show those not admitted. That will be good. 19 MR. FUGATE: That is what I was doing. 20 THE COURT: Sorry, I got -- 21 MR. FUGATE: Gary Smith authenticating 22 affidavit for Narcanon video, that will be 313. 23 The Jenna Elfman authenticating affidavit for 24 the SOMA video, San Francisco mission, will be 14. 25 And the authenticating affidavit of Mildred Bunnie Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 100 1 Dugan for the New York video would be -- 2 THE CLERK: 315. 3 MR. FUGATE: -- 315 for identification. And 4 they are not admitted. 5 THE CLERK: The picture is 316. 6 THE COURT: The picture would be 316. If you 7 don't have it by the time we finish up today, you 8 can just drop it by my office. 9 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 10 THE COURT: A picture -- if you can find these 11 things, it is real nice to put a picture in one of 12 those plastic sleeves where there are little holes 13 on the end and I can just slide it in a notebook. 14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 15 THE COURT: You don't have to. Just tape it on 16 a piece of paper. 17 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the clerk handed back to me 18 portions F and G you removed from Exhibit 285 which 19 is the petition. 20 THE COURT: Okay. I was trying to make the 21 record a little smaller. 22 MR. FUGATE: Good luck. That is the conclusion 23 of the rebuttal case in evidence, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 MR. FUGATE: Except for the picture that is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 101 1 outstanding. Thank you. 2 THE COURT: Any surrebuttal? 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I call Jesse Prince. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 THE BAILIFF: Face the clerk -- 6 THE COURT: That is all right. Mr. Prince, you 7 are under oath. You understand that? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE BAILIFF: Speak in a loud, clear voice for 10 the reporter. 11 THE COURT: Go ahead. 12 13 ______________________________________ 14 JESSE PRINCE, 15 the witness herein, having been previously duly sworn, was 16 examined and testified as follows: 17 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Mr. Prince, during the Wollersheim case, do you 20 recall the Court's order asking all of the PC folders be 21 produced? 22 A I recall that I have given testimony and 23 declarations about this, and at the time that I did the 24 testimony and gave the declarations it was more fresh in my 25 mind than it is today. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 102 1 But I certainly do recall during that trial at 2 certain points documents were asked for from the opposing 3 side of Scientology. And Vicki Aznaran specifically would 4 sit down, go through the preclear folders, take out anything 5 that was considered damaging. They call it vetting, they 6 call it culling. We went through that process a few times. 7 Then at a certain point some of Mr. Wollersheim's folders 8 were just destroyed. 9 Q Did you -- do you know if the Church of 10 Scientology did produce some of Mr. Wollersheim's PC 11 folders? 12 A Yes, they did and I have testified to that. 13 Q Then another order came in from the Court to 14 produce the rest of them. What happened to that? 15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Do you know -- 20 THE COURT: Did another order come in asking 21 for more folders? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: And what happened after that? 24 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I do believe that something 25 was produced to the Court at that time but it wasn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 103 1 what they asked for, and the situation was getting 2 kind of panicky as far as we as Scientologists were 3 concerned, so, you know, we -- we sat in a meeting. 4 Mr. Cooley was there. And, you know, I'm sorry he's 5 an officer of the court, but he was there. 6 Miscavige was there. Vicki Aznaran was there. I 7 was there. 8 You know, we were in this whole mode and 9 evolution of getting rid of -- we were worried about 10 a raid. We were worried about fed agents coming in 11 and raiding Scientology. And it is not like it 12 hadn't happened before. 13 And the biggest mistake from when the Church 14 got raided before is the amount of documents -- 15 incriminating documents that were found. We wanted 16 to limit that liability by destroying things that 17 showed LRH had continued to manage the alter ego 18 of -- 19 THE COURT: We are talking now -- this is 20 surrebuttal so we're talking about the Wollersheim 21 files, that meeting, those people were sitting 22 around. Then what happened. 23 THE WITNESS: Then litigants of cases and it 24 was decided, you know, we can't turn over this 25 stuff, we just can't do it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 104 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Why? 3 A You know, as I sit here today, I struggle with 4 trying to think of why. But at the time, the concern was 5 what was in the preclear folders. What Mr. Wollersheim had 6 said, what had been written about him. And, again, like -- 7 like Lisa, they write the programs. Example: "Lawrence 8 Wollersheim isn't doing good today. He seems to be going a 9 little crazy, losing his mind. He was interviewed by this 10 person. This may be upsetting to him. Go in and do this, 11 this and this." So that kind of information that showed 12 what Mr. Wollersheim to be saying to be true was taken out 13 of the folder. 14 And what was -- what remained are things like of 15 no consequence. Like a success story from completing a 16 course. Or -- or -- or somebody writing something about 17 him, a knowledge report, or a session schedule. You know, 18 things of no real consequence that -- that the Church wasn't 19 afraid to turn over. 20 Q And did the Church then turn over those things? 21 A Yes. 22 Q But the things that were either -- made the Church 23 look bad or incriminate the Church, what happened to them? 24 A Everything about their upper-level materials were 25 destroyed. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 105 1 MR. WEINBERG: What was the last? 2 THE COURT: Or about their upper-level 3 materials -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: Materials? 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Now -- 7 THE COURT: I'm not sure I understand what that 8 is. You mean their upper-level materials meaning 9 those materials that they did not care for the world 10 outside of Scientology to see? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: So that would have had nothing 13 specific to do with Mr. Wollersheim as much as it 14 would have been revealing or divulging upper-level 15 Scientology materials not made for or wanting the 16 outside world to see? Is that what you're talking 17 about? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. We look at this 19 vast library here. Not one spec of those materials 20 are present in this courtroom. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q The upper-level materials? 23 A Correct. 24 THE COURT: What would those be? 25 THE WITNESS: That would be -- your Honor, if I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 106 1 could just have that little book that Mr. Moxon can 2 show you, I could show you once and then you would 3 have it as a reference. 4 THE COURT: All right. I took mine back to my 5 office already. 6 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. 7 MR. DANDAR: It is called the -- 8 THE WITNESS: I'll be really quick. 9 MR. DANDAR: -- the Scientology Handbook, for 10 the record. 11 THE WITNESS: This is the grade chart. This is 12 the one that has the grade chart in here. I'll just 13 see if I can get it real quickly for you because I 14 just saw this in here. 15 THE COURT: The grade chart is tabbed. 16 THE WITNESS: Is that right? Okay. 17 Well, it is not that tab. It is not that one. 18 It is not that one. 19 Okay. Let me just be really quick here. I'll 20 just look in the grade chart here, I'll find it, 21 because they do have -- gee -- 22 THE COURT: All that mumbling you are doing, my 23 court reporter is going crazy. She's writing it all 24 down so just look for it, okay? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 107 1 Oh, well. I thought I would be smart and find 2 it real quick but I'm not able to do that. 3 Okay, on Scientology's grade chart -- 4 THE COURT: Somebody find the grade chart for 5 him. I saw it myself. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Here. 7 THE COURT: There is one. Okay, let Mr. Prince 8 have that one. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Then we'll give you one if you 10 want it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q You want me to hold it? 15 A Okay, upper-level materials. This is the grade 16 chart. As has been explained, you have the training side 17 which is on the left, the processing side on the right. 18 If you look here where it says "Auditor class 19 9 --" well, I skipped that. 20 Starting right here, "Clear," on up through here, 21 these materials are what the Church has labeled as 22 confidential secret trade secrets and they are not 23 published. This isn't anything you can go in a book store 24 and buy or use outside of the Scientology organization. 25 Matter of fact, they have it where electronically if you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 108 1 take them out of the room it sounds an alarm. So that is 2 what we are talking about here, starting from clear on up 3 through here on the processing side is confidential 4 materials. 5 And when we go over here to the training side, 6 with auditors, it parallels that -- we look down here at the 7 5A graduate, Class 6 auditor, Class 7 auditor is where the 8 R6W begins and that is confidential up through here. Class 9 8 is -- Class 6 and 7 have to do with OT levels lower than 10 OT3. When you get up to Class 8 that deals with OT3. When 11 you get up here with Class 9, that deals with NED FOR OTs. 12 FOR OT is an acronym. 13 Class 10, 11 and 12 has to do with the Ls. Those 14 are also confidential levels in Scientology. And that is a 15 confidential side. The issues that you don't see in 16 evidence in court today. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 THE WITNESS: Did I explain it good, Judge? 19 THE COURT: I think so. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Mr. Prince, you reviewed the outside folders, in a 23 quick fashion that are sitting on the table here with 24 defense counsel, of Mr. Wollersheim, correct? 25 A Almost subliminally, yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 109 1 Q Okay. Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders, does this 2 represent all of Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders, as far as you 3 remember? 4 A No way. 5 Q Why is that? 6 A Mmm, because you have certain classes and types of 7 folders that are preclear folders. In this pile what I have 8 seen is some folders of Mr. Wollersheim's earlier auditing. 9 And then I see what, one, two, three, four, five, six, 10 seven, eight, nine, ten -- maybe ten folders with OT3 on 11 them. That makes no sense whatsoever that there would be 12 that many folders with OT3. 13 Mr. Wollersheim at least went up -- I think he 14 completed the level of OT5, which is NED FOR OTs. 15 Maybe one quarter of Mr. Wollersheim's NED FOR OT 16 folders are here in the courtroom. I would give an 17 estimate. 18 Q And do you know whether or not the NED FOR OT 19 folders were produced to the Court in the courtroom, any 20 portion of them? 21 A To my knowledge, no. 22 Q And would you be able to better explain what is 23 sitting on the table at defense counsel if you were able to 24 look inside the folders? 25 A Absolutely. I mean, that is all and everything. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 110 1 I mean, I'm not suggesting that this is a situation where -- 2 but what would happen if I took all those red folders and 3 looked through them and found out there wasn't anything 4 having to do with OT3 but something else in there? What 5 would happen if I took those NED folders that are marked as 6 NED FOR OTs and looked in them and there is something else 7 in there. There is no way to tell. 8 Q Now, you were deposed by the Church of Scientology 9 through Bridge Publications in the Colorado federal court. 10 Correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And in that case, you testified that -- just how 13 you testified here, that Wollersheim's PC folders were 14 vetted, culled, and the parts the Church didn't want the 15 Court to see, they were destroyed? 16 A Correct. 17 Q And did counsel for the Church of Scientology 18 Bridge Publications come into court and produce any of these 19 Wollersheim files to try to make it look like you weren't 20 telling the truth? 21 A Yes. 22 Q How much did they bring into court? 23 A Oh, at that time? 24 Q Yes. 25 A Oh, God no. This is the first time they have ever Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 111 1 tried this trick. 2 Q Oh? 3 A And I have been through the whole Wollersheim 4 case. 5 Q As representing the Church and opposing the 6 Church? 7 A Correct. 8 Q And when you were opposing the Church in 9 California in the Wollersheim case, did they come -- did 10 they take your deposition in that case, or did you just file 11 a declaration? 12 A You know, I don't know. But -- I don't know or 13 remember if they took my deposition because I have been 14 deposed quite a few times and I have worked on a lot of 15 cases. But I would think that, yes, they did take my 16 deposition. 17 Q Did you file a declaration in that case saying the 18 same thing you said in this case, that Mr. Wollersheim's 19 files were vetted, culled and destroyed for those matters 20 that the Church did not want the Court to see? 21 A Sure. More than once. 22 Q And did they produce the Wollersheim folders, as 23 they have done today, in the Wollersheim case in California? 24 A No. This is the first time they have ever tried 25 this trick. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 112 1 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have. 2 THE COURT: You may inquire. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Just one moment, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. FUGATE: Could I -- here is the photograph, 6 your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'm not sure what number it would 9 be. 10 THE COURT: I'm not either -- oh, yes, I am. 11 316. 12 MR. FUGATE: Then 316 is your copy and this is 13 Mr. Dandar's copy. 14 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 15 MR. FUGATE: For the record, it is the 16 photograph of all of the volumes that were 17 displayed, your Honor and described, your Honor, by 18 Mr. Moxon in the courtroom. 19 THE CLERK: Judge, I also need 289B. 20 THE COURT: 289 what? 21 THE CLERK: 289B, to go with the Cipriano 22 affidavit. 23 THE COURT: Oh, yes, you were to see if there 24 was a 289B to go with the Cipriano affidavit. 25 MR. MOXON: I didn't have anything else with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 113 1 me, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay, so you'll have to get that. 3 MR. MOXON: Yes, I'll -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q Now, Mr. Prince, the FACTNet case never went to 8 trial, did it, that you were deposed in? That case never 9 went to trial? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And the part of the Wollersheim case that you 12 worked with Mr. Leipold on in which you filed your June 30, 13 1999 affidavit, that case, your deposition was not taken in 14 that case, was it? 15 A Again -- again I'll testify as I did just moments 16 ago, I'm not sure. 17 Q And that case, the phase that you were on, once 18 you left Scientology and began working with these lawyers in 19 cases against Scientology, that case had to do with a motion 20 by Wollersheim to add new parties, correct? 21 A You know, counselor, I couldn't tell you that. 22 Q And that didn't go to trial, did it? 23 A I could not tell you that. I don't -- I don't 24 know that. 25 Q Now, the -- clearly what is in front of you here Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 114 1 are upper-level materials. Correct? 2 A Incorrect. That is not clear at all. I would 3 have to look in the folders to see what is in there. Make 4 no mistake about it. I would have to look in the files to 5 determine what is actually in the files. 6 Q You know what auditing -- you know what PC files, 7 the covers of them, look like from your experience in the 8 Church, correct? 9 A Yes, I do. 10 Q And you know that each file is in a folder? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q Right? And the folder typically would have, what, 13 on it? 14 A The front of the preclear folder would have -- 15 Mmm -- an indication on the top right-hand corner 16 demonstrated by either a green stripe or a yellow stripe or 17 a red stripe that would designate it's a clear, it's NED FOR 18 OTs or it is confidential or something like that. And it 19 has the person's name on it. 20 It has, in the series of folders, which number 21 folder this is. Such as folder number 7 is complete, which 22 normally they complete when they are about this tall 23 (indicating), then they're retired and folder number 8 would 24 be started. And on the very front of the preclear folder it 25 would have specifically the starting date and the ending Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 115 1 date of the record that is in the file, and it would 2 basically have that similar information on the spine of the 3 folder. 4 Q Now, you clearly testified in this case, did you 5 not, that all -- all of the remaining folders, preclear 6 folders of Larry Wollersheim, were pulped, destroyed? That 7 is what you testified, didn't you? 8 A I don't believe that was my testimony. 9 Q Well, let's start with your affidavit. Do you 10 remember the August 20 affidavit of 1999 that you filed in 11 this case? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And do you remember in that affidavit that -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Can I approach the witness, your 15 Honor? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q That in that affidavit in Paragraph 19 that you 19 describe Mr. Wollersheim's preclear file, do you see that? 20 A Yes, I do. 21 Q And do you see that among other things you say 22 that -- in Paragraph 19, "There was also concern that the 23 materials known as clear, OT1, OT2, OT3 and NED FOR OTs 24 (NOT) would be open to public inspection if Wollersheim's 25 files were produced as ordered." Do you remember that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 116 1 A Yes. 2 Q Those are the upper-level materials you just 3 described to the Court, right? 4 A In part, yes. 5 Q Right. And then you -- in Paragraph 21 in this 6 affidavit say, "Later I was informed that a second court 7 order was issued to produce Wollersheim's entire file. 8 Faced with the prospect of having to produce the entire 9 file, Miscavige gave orders that the entire file simply be 10 destroyed by being pulped. Pursuant to Miscavige's orders, 11 I ordered Rick Aznaran to take Wollersheim's preclear files 12 to the recycling plant in Riverside to be pulped. Several 13 hours after I gave the order to have Wollersheim's preclear 14 files destroyed, Rick Aznaran returned and confirmed that 15 the records had been pulped and even showed me a small 16 bottle of pulp material, 'Here's what's left,' he said." 17 Now, is there any -- any doubt in your mind that 18 what you swore to in this affidavit was that the entire -- 19 the entire preclear folder, including the entire upper-level 20 materials, was destroyed? 21 A Mmm, yes, there is definitely a doubt in my mind 22 that at least what is represented to be here on the table is 23 Mr. Wollersheim's upper-level materials. 24 I know without -- without a question of a doubt in 25 my mind that this incident happened. And I was even Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 117 1 reminded of it when I read Mrs. Aznaran's declaration when I 2 was still in Scientology in 1988 when she relates the exact 3 same story. So as I said, we went through this whole trial 4 with Wollersheim. I was the expert witness on that case 5 until it was settled by Scientology during these 6 proceedings. 7 I was there in Los Angeles for the very last day 8 of the proceedings. This never happened and this was a big 9 issue. I have said this for years. 10 Q Did you ever in 19 -- when did this supposedly 11 happen, 19 what year? 12 A When what supposedly happened? 13 Q Your testimony that I just read about this pulping 14 of files? 15 A I think I gave testimony that either happened in 16 1984 or '85. 17 Q All right. And at that time, did you -- had you 18 gone through the upper-level materials, files, of 19 Mr. Wollersheim? 20 A I had seen some of them. I personally was not 21 familiar with the length and breadth of Mr. Wollersheim, and 22 I believe the complaint was specifically about NED FOR OTs 23 driving him crazy and I think that is why he got the 24 judgment. This is what I'm thinking. So I think what was 25 at issue in particular about that was NED FOR OTs. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 118 1 Q So you never saw that file? 2 A I saw part of it. 3 Q And you didn't go and actually destroy the 4 documents? 5 A No. 6 Q And you didn't see the documents destroyed? 7 A Correct. 8 Q You were just -- you are just relying on what 9 somebody else said to you? 10 A Mmm, Richard Aznaran reported -- as I stated in 11 the declaration, affidavit. 12 Q All right. Now, do you remember in this 13 proceeding being asked, on June 18, 2002, by Mr. Dandar, the 14 following question and giving the following answer -- 15 A Can you just show it to me, please? 16 Q We'll just read along together. 17 A Well, how can we do it together if I don't have 18 it? 19 Q Well, I have only got one copy so we'll have to do 20 it together. 21 A Okay. 22 Q Do you remember being asked on June 18, 2002, Page 23 279, question by Mr. Dandar, "In your experience in 24 Scientology, were things that were beneficial papers and 25 documents that were beneficial to Scientology removed from a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 119 1 member's PC folder? 2 "Answer: No, you know, and I have written a 3 declaration about this before. Well, this declaration may 4 be in and of itself, you know, with the Wollersheim -- there 5 was the process of 'Okay, well, we'll turn over something, 6 we'll go through and we'll -- we'll get rid of any kind of 7 incriminating things that would incriminate Scientology.' 8 Then when the production of all the folders were 9 called for, it -- that became too massive of a task and it 10 was decided to destroy them all." 11 Were you asked that question and gave that answer? 12 A Right, and I think I'm capsulizing two events that 13 I mentioned specifically in the written declarations, so 14 again, I don't want to play word games here. You know, I 15 said what I said. 16 Q Well, you said what you said, which was the 17 decision, according to your sworn testimony here, the 18 materials were just too massive to cull them out and, 19 therefore, you said the decision was made to destroy 20 everything. That was your testimony. Right? 21 A And, you know, and that is my testimony. And 22 again, I don't have the motion in front of me or 23 specifically what the concern was, what was specifically 24 being asked for, what the concern was specifically. 25 So, you know, I'm only able to answer in general Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 120 1 terms. But as I sit here today and I see that tiny stack 2 that allegedly is supposed to be Mr. Wollersheim's NED FOR 3 OT files, I can state categorically that is not all of his 4 files by any stretch of the imagination. 5 Q There never was an order in the Wollersheim case 6 to produce -- for the Church to produce these confidential 7 upper-level materials, either OT1, OT2, OT3 or NOTs, was 8 there? 9 A You know, I think the record will speak for 10 itself. 11 Q So if there is no such order, you will stand 12 corrected what you said to Mr. Dandar? 13 A I think the record will speak for itself. 14 THE COURT: I think what he's asking you is 15 that if, in fact, if the whole record were looked 16 and at no one ever asked for these to be produced, 17 then there would have been no reason to destroy 18 them. 19 THE WITNESS: Oh, correct. If no one had 20 asked -- 21 THE COURT: You must be mistaken if, in fact, 22 the Court never asked for them is what he's saying. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh. 24 THE COURT: If the record reflects the Court 25 never said produce them, then there would have been Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 121 1 no reason to panic and destroy them. 2 THE WITNESS: If the Court had never asked for 3 them to be produced it would not have been anything 4 that would have come into anyone's mind. 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Okay. And when I said upper-level materials, I'm 7 actually referring to the upper-level folders. You 8 understood that? Do you know the distinction? I mean -- 9 A No, you are making a distinction now, so, I 10 mean -- 11 Q Well, the upper-level auditing folders are, for 12 example, a folder that -- that you were describing that 13 would be a -- a OT1 or OT2 or OT3 folder, correct? 14 A Correct. 15 THE COURT: He's saying only one-quarter of the 16 upper-level folders are there. 17 THE WITNESS: The NED FOR OT. 18 MR. WEINBERG: But I had been calling them 19 upper-level materials and materials are what are 20 delivered and folders are the record of the auditing 21 process. 22 THE WITNESS: But, you know, Mr. Weinberg, both 23 of those articles can appear in a preclear file. 24 THE COURT: You are also saying, Mr. Prince, I 25 gather, still, that Ms. Aznaran culled through all Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 122 1 of the files to see if there were damaging things to 2 the Church's position and they were removed 3 individually? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: But you still maintain that whole 6 files of some of the upper-level NED FOR OTs were 7 culled? 8 THE WITNESS: Correct. During this second 9 instance. I have two separate instances. It came 10 up once and some months later it came up again that 11 somebody was hammering down the door to get 12 Mr. Wollersheim's preclear folders or requests were 13 being made or whatever. 14 THE COURT: And all these people sat around 15 making -- and a decision was made to destroy them? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, not only Mr. Wollersheim's, 17 but I gave testimony in this proceeding of other 18 persons who I believe files were also destroyed. I 19 think I mentioned John Nelson, I think I mentioned 20 Gerry Armstrong. 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q Now, you said something about -- concerning a 23 raid. There was no concern about some law enforcement 24 agency coming in and seizing Mr. Wollersheim's preclear 25 folders, was there? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 123 1 A No, that is not what I testified to. I said there 2 was concern for a raid in general. There were several 3 things -- 4 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 6 THE COURT: This is so far removed. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 8 THE COURT: This is cross-examination on 9 surrebuttal. 10 MR. WEINBERG: One last question. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q You said something about that you could state 14 categorically that this pile of -- that this NOTs -- the 15 NOTs files you see on the table are not all of them, that is 16 what you said, right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q But you never saw or reviewed Mr. Wollersheim's 19 NOTs files, right? 20 A Right, not in their entirety. That is correct. 21 MR. WEINBERG: That is all my questions, your 22 Honor. 23 THE COURT: Did you see files that you are 24 alleging were destroyed? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 124 1 THE COURT: So -- 2 THE WITNESS: There were many more NED FOR OTs 3 files than those sitting at the table. 4 THE COURT: You are saying when this occurred 5 you saw them? 6 THE WITNESS: I saw them earlier, the first 7 time when Ms. Aznaran had them all in the room 8 during the culling and things she testified to in 9 her deposition. 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Mr. Prince, how thick is a PC folder? 13 A A preclear folder, an average size -- I mean, it 14 can be varying size because you keep adding paper in it, but 15 normally when the preclear file gets to be this big it is 16 retired. 17 Q Four inches? 18 A Yes, three and a half, four inches, yes. 19 Q Do you see every file over here? Are each of 20 those four inches? 21 A Well, I see that a majority of them are the size 22 that I give. But I see these little bitty files that are in 23 the red folders that, to me, look like someone has taken a 24 regular-size folder and broken it down and made folders, in 25 other words, find -- something has been created here. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 125 1 Q But you do know that some files of Mr. Wollersheim 2 were produced to the Court in this case? 3 A Yes, and I testified to that. 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 6 BY MR. WEINBERG: 7 Q You understand -- 8 THE COURT: Wait a second. 9 MR. WEINBERG: I thought he was done. 10 THE COURT: It is Mr. Dandar's turn. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I thought he said he was done. 12 MR. DANDAR: Well, I am done. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I had mental telepathy. 14 MR. DANDAR: He saw my hand go up. 15 THE COURT: I see. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q But you know that what was produced were the 18 lower-level folders, not the upper-level folders, correct? 19 A That is incorrect. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I have no further 21 questions. 22 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir. You 23 may stand down. 24 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 25 MR. DANDAR: Now, this is going to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 126 1 difficult, Judge. Since they brought in the 2 Wollersheim PC folders, I did call Mr. Wollersheim's 3 counsel. He is -- I know you don't want me to use 4 the word "outrageous," I'll say upset. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. DANDAR: And Mr. Wollersheim himself wants 7 the Court to take into custody these PC folders and 8 he wants to fly here and review these PC folders to 9 see if they truly are his PC folders because he 10 doesn't believe that they are. 11 THE COURT: Well now, we're not going to do 12 that. I'm not going to take custody of those 13 folders. First of all, they are not mine. They are 14 not being introduced. They belong to at this moment 15 the -- Mr. Moxon who is the custodian of those. 16 I am not going to stand here and wait while 17 Mr. Wollersheim flies here. I have been told they 18 are not Mr. Wollersheim's, that they are, by 19 property right, the property of the Church. 20 Therefore, he does not have the property right to 21 them, apparently. 22 Now, so I'm not going to do that. Whatever 23 went on in the Wollersheim case, that case is over. 24 There was a verdict in that case that has been paid. 25 So, you know, he can be outraged or incensed, but Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 127 1 the long and short of it is, what bearing does it 2 have in this case. 3 What did he say about my looking at them? 4 MR. DANDAR: He does not give anyone permission 5 to look at his PC folders. But this is why I -- I 6 would hope you would let him come here for this 7 reason. True, it has nothing to do with his case, 8 his case is settled. But if in fact -- and I don't 9 know the truth -- but if in fact these were created 10 for you and they are not his PC folders, that would 11 be a fraud on the Court. I would hope that that is 12 not the case. I would hope Mr. Wollersheim is 13 incorrect, all right, that these are part of his 14 folders, that all these folders were the ones 15 produced or requested to be produced to the court in 16 California. 17 I'm told by the attorney who is actually at the 18 trial -- there were many appeals about this, judges 19 were recused, RICO suits were filed all over these 20 PC folders. I was told today by the attorney who 21 was there -- 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: Mr. Leipold wasn't there. 23 MR. DANDAR: No, another attorney. 24 -- that all of the PC folders, the first order, 25 all of the PC folders of Mr. Wollersheim were Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 128 1 ordered to be produced and they were not and they 2 were just given a little bit and saying that is it. 3 Then the second order came out. I'm just repeating, 4 of course, hearsay from another attorney. 5 But it is important here for the reason I just 6 said: If this is not true, this is a fraud on the 7 Court. 8 THE COURT: I don't -- 9 MR. DANDAR: If it is true, then I back off 10 everything I said. 11 THE COURT: I would agree with you. But it 12 seems odd they would come in with a motion with a 13 lawyer who flew in and ask me to look at them if 14 they were not Mr. Wollersheim's folders. Maybe they 15 think I would think that they would think that I 16 was -- I was so inept or so blind that I couldn't 17 see whether or not these belonged to Mr. Wollersheim 18 or whether they were Ms. Schmidt's? 19 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't -- I don't think you 20 or I could look at these and say these are genuine 21 copies or the original of Mr. Wollersheim's folders. 22 THE COURT: Well, we don't know that because 23 Mr. Wollersheim won't even give me permission to 24 look at them. So you may be right, I might be able 25 to -- you may be right. But the truth of the matter Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 129 1 is he hasn't given me permission to do that so I 2 won't do an in camera hearing because of 3 Mr. Wollersheim's request that I not, and I will 4 honor that. 5 Therefore, I will, however, reflect the Church 6 did ask me to do an in camera inspection and I would 7 have but for Mr. Wollersheim's request that I not. 8 So there we have it. I'm not going to take 9 possession of some files here. I wouldn't know what 10 to do with them, where to put them. My clerk 11 wouldn't know what to do with them. I think if you 12 want to, we can take inventory of how many there are 13 and we can count them. There is a picture here that 14 seems to show them, I mean, pretty good. You can 15 show that to Mr. Wollersheim. 16 MR. DANDAR: But it is the inside that is the 17 telltale sign of what they really are. That is why 18 they need to be examined, because they are offering 19 these documents for your review to try to impeach 20 Mr. Prince. And if they are not truly 21 Mr. Wollersheim's PC folders, that would not be the 22 proper thing to do in this courtroom. 23 THE COURT: It does seem as if there is -- if 24 somebody is speaking out of both sides of his mouth. 25 The only reason I would say that is not true is if Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 130 1 you urged Mr. Wollersheim to let me look at them and 2 he said absolutely not, that there would be things 3 in there that would be harmful to him he didn't want 4 anybody to see and I would understand that. 5 MR. DANDAR: First of all, I have not talked to 6 Mr. Wollersheim. I'm still waiting for his call. I 7 only talked to his attorney, so before you make a 8 decision at least let me have enough time to talk to 9 Mr. Wollersheim. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. DANDAR: All right? 12 THE COURT: All right. I take it -- I mean, it 13 is nigh onto 4:30. I'm tired. These proceedings 14 tire me out. I don't want to stay late. They have 15 asked me to do this. I presume, therefore, they 16 think it is important, they meaning the defendants 17 in this case. I wish to honor any privilege. And 18 that is his privilege to claim. But I don't want 19 games to be played here. 20 I mean, I don't want people -- like 21 Mr. Wollersheim can make an allegation, then all of 22 a sudden there is something brought forth that 23 perhaps would show those allegations aren't 24 accurate -- I'm not talking about Mr. Prince; I'm 25 talking about whatever went on in the Wollersheim Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 131 1 case or whatever didn't go on in the Wollersheim 2 case -- then one side brings something forward, then 3 the other side says, "Well, those are fraudulent but 4 you can't look to make that decision," that seems 5 awfully odd to me. You are right, I would not be 6 able to make heads or tails out of it. But I don't 7 know. For all I know every single piece of paper 8 has something at the top that says "Wollersheim" and 9 a date. A date starting at a certain date. 10 Mr. Prince, did these files have a name and 11 date, Mr. Prince? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, they would be 13 named and dated each session. But the reason why 14 you have to know what you're looking at in order to 15 see that these files -- obviously there are files 16 here but are these complete files? Are these all of 17 Mr. Wollersheim's? 18 THE COURT: I really wouldn't know that. 19 THE WITNESS: Exactly. The only way you would 20 know that, maybe you can't see from your angle, but 21 there are certain pink pages that appear in these 22 folders which indicate what program the person is 23 on, what date, why they're on the program, and then 24 there's another running record of every auditing 25 session the person had called folder summary. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 132 1 So you would literally have to take the folder 2 summary to see that it is complete and then compare 3 in those files what they present that everything is 4 there. 5 THE COURT: I don't know how we're going to 6 resolve this. For this hearing I honestly -- I'll 7 let Mr. Moxon take them back and we're just going to 8 let the record speak for the record. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: That is what we would urge. 10 THE COURT: But I'm not going to wait for 11 Mr. Wollersheim because I'm not going to give him 12 permission to go through them if they are not his 13 and apparently they are not his. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: I would make the point, I think 15 it is an obvious point, I'm sure your Honor will 16 know, that while we maintain that these are all the 17 files, that is not the issue. These were presented 18 to impeach Mr. Prince's testimony that all of the 19 files were ordered destroyed by David Miscavige at 20 this meeting and that all of the files were 21 destroyed, he followed David Miscavige's orders, he 22 told Rick Aznaran to pulp all of the files and they 23 came back in a little vial. And this is submitted, 24 your Honor, to show that is, forgive me, pulp 25 fiction. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 133 1 THE COURT: That is just too uncanny to end 2 this hearing on that note so I will say a few words. 3 MR. DANDAR: Could I respond? 4 THE COURT: No, I think we're done. In other 5 words, you have made your point. I think Mr. Prince 6 now says if he implied that all of the files were 7 destroyed, he didn't mean that. He said that the 8 files are not as massive as he would have believed 9 them to be, certain things were taken out. We'll 10 see what he said before. I still don't know what he 11 said before. I'm going to have to read it, look at 12 the transcript when I get it, see if he's saying 13 something different now from what he said then. If 14 he is, see if there is a basis for that, or if the 15 basis is that these files were produced. So I know 16 how to look at testimony that changes or that 17 doesn't change. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: I know. 19 THE COURT: So I think I'm just going to, 20 Mr. Moxon, allow you to take them back. 21 MR. MOXON: Thank you. 22 THE COURT: So tell Mr. Wollersheim I'll not 23 allow him to look through them because this is not 24 that case and I don't know what that would establish 25 and I don't believe they are his and the Church Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 134 1 would object. And I will let the record say this, 2 Mr. Prince -- Mr. Prince wanted to look through 3 them, I'm sure you would object to that. 4 MR. FUGATE: Absolutely. 5 MR. MOXON: Yes. 6 THE COURT: In other words, I have indicated 7 that Mr. Wollersheim doesn't want me to see them, 8 but you don't want Mr. Prince to see them either. 9 MR. FUGATE: No. And I don't think he wants 10 you to see them either because they -- as I know PC 11 folders to be constructed, by what little work I 12 have put into them, they are signed, many of them, 13 by the person that did the auditing and by the 14 person that received the auditing and dated, in the 15 SOLO files they are in Mr. Wollersheim's 16 handwriting. So although you wouldn't know what 17 perhaps all of it is, you certainly, as Mr. Monique 18 Yingling put it, would know it when you saw it and 19 you would know it was original. 20 THE COURT: And she said she's not a 21 Scientologist, but she knows enough to know whether 22 it is somebody's auditing file. 23 MR. FUGATE: Right. 24 THE COURT: But Mr. Wollersheim is not a party 25 to this suit. I have no jurisdiction really over Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 135 1 Mr. Wollersheim. And I think the point for which 2 they were offered has been made, perhaps we will see 3 what Mr. Prince's testimony was as I said and see if 4 it changed. I really don't know. 5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 MR. FUGATE: We should take them, let Mr. Moxon 8 take them away. 9 THE COURT: Mr. Moxon may take them back. I 10 will say this, however. As I said, I -- when I say 11 this, I hope you know that I mean it, sort of like 12 the last time when I indicated to you I didn't know 13 how I would rule on the vitreous, I wasn't kidding, 14 I went back and forth, looked at it long and hard. 15 I have no idea. There is a lot for me to digest. 16 I'm not that familiar with the law in this 17 area. It's not that familiar. I never had a motion 18 for terminating sanctions. Never had a motion to 19 disqualify a lawyer. So -- well, maybe I have in 20 the criminal court, but they were always quite 21 different, they were always conflict of interest, 22 this type of thing. 23 So I have a lot to digest. I have no idea how 24 I'm going to rule. So my statement here should not 25 be implied I have made a ruling because I haven't. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 136 1 If this case goes to trial, and this becomes an 2 issue, imagine -- I mean, imagine how much more I 3 know about all of this than any juror sitting -- 4 selected to sit, and think about a little issue like 5 this, you all trying to make heads or tails of it in 6 front of a jury. A jury would not have a clue, you 7 know. They don't even have the benefit of the law 8 that we all have. Like impeachment and whether or 9 not this would impeach Mr. Prince, depending on what 10 Mr. Prince said, did he change his testimony, if he 11 changed his testimony would it be because of the 12 production of what you see, or not, because 13 Mr. Prince said you wouldn't know what was in them 14 unless you looked in them. 15 I can't look in them. I can go through all 16 this legally. It would be very, very hard for a 17 jury and that could become an issue. Very 18 complicated. It would be a very complicated trial 19 for a lay jury. Totally, totally unfamiliar with 20 any of this, to figure it out. 21 The counterclaim. I'm not so sure about the 22 wrongful death part of it. The counterclaim would 23 be very, very difficult. 24 All right. Well, is that it? Any more 25 surrebuttal? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 137 1 MR. DANDAR: No. I'm just going to try to get 2 those orders from the Wollersheim case you asked me 3 to get. 4 THE COURT: Yes, I did ask you to get those 5 if -- that would be helpful. You may submit those. 6 I do want -- Mr. Moxon, whatever happened -- if 7 there was recantation of an affidavit, then later 8 another statement says, "I don't recant, I made a 9 mistake --" I don't know how valuable anything is 10 when it goes through that much. 11 MR. MOXON: I'll give it to you. 12 THE COURT: But I'll have it all. Matter of 13 fact, it becomes useless after a while. But in any 14 event, it is part of the record so we need the whole 15 record. You may submit the orders from the 16 Wollersheim case regarding the PC folders. That 17 will be helpful to me. 18 MR. DANDAR: All right. 19 THE COURT: Let's see. Anything else that 20 we're expecting? I have given you-all three weeks 21 from Friday so that gives you an extra day to 22 produce the first closing argument. And you'll have 23 until the following Friday. 24 If you finish early -- if any side finishes 25 early, if you are done and happy with what you have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 138 1 and you are happy with your product, don't just sit 2 on it until the last minute, because needless to 3 say, I really don't plan to do much -- I might start 4 reading some of the transcripts, but the truth of 5 the matter is until I see where you all are headed 6 and what you all think is important, I'm not going 7 to spend my time on some area that might be totally 8 unimportant. 9 So I can't make a decision until I get these, 10 so if you get these, meaning your closing arguments, 11 if you have your closing argument done ahead of 12 time, submit it. 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. 14 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, if he should 15 submit his early, you'll have -- I guess that would 16 be a full seven days, because it comes in on Friday, 17 it's due on a Friday. So if he gets it in early, if 18 you would, start your seven days from the following 19 day. And then when he gets his in, you have got 20 your seven, because I gave you a week, right, Friday 21 to Friday, so that is seven days. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: And I assume we can agree on -- 23 on personal service, direct personal service, rather 24 than mail or anything like that, so everyone gets it 25 right away. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 139 1 MR. DANDAR: Absolutely. 2 THE COURT: I don't know what that means. 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: In other words, we give ours to 4 him directly on the day it is due, we don't stick it 5 in the mail so he gets it on Monday. 6 THE COURT: Oh, sure. 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: Hand-delivered. 8 MR. DANDAR: I won't be delivering it in person 9 to New York City, though. 10 THE COURT: You'll deliver it by in -- in 11 person to one of the -- these lawyers? 12 MR. DANDAR: One of the local lawyers. 13 THE COURT: You all will get me my copy. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. 15 THE COURT: Anything further we need to do on 16 the hearing? 17 MR. WEINBERG: We just need to clean up on the 18 few exhibits that have to be -- you know, we have 19 got -- we have to put. A, B, C, D, E, F -- 20 THE COURT: I thought we had done that. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think that has been 22 done. 23 MR. MOXON: One last thing, this video, there 24 was only one copy. Just to clean this up, I'm not 25 sure which number. This is on the classification Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 140 1 and gradation chart. 2 THE COURT: What number was that, madam clerk, 3 do you remember? 4 THE CLERK: Which one is that? 5 MR. MOXON: 312. 6 THE COURT: She had it but I didn't. 7 THE CLERK: Wait a minute. 8 MR. MOXON: 304, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: 304? 10 MR. MOXON: Thank you. 11 THE CLERK: Judge, could you also state that 12 the affidavit of Stacy Brooks in regard -- 13 (A discussion was held off the record.) 14 THE COURT: Who is going to give the clerk 15 Number 311 which is what was -- that is Ms. Brooks' 16 affidavit? 17 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think we have it, but it 18 is probably in one of our offices. 19 MR. FUGATE: Since it is going to be marked as 20 a defense exhibit, when we get it I'll have it 21 delivered -- well, you'll be here tomorrow? 22 THE CLERK: Yes. 23 MR. FUGATE: If we get it tomorrow, Earlene, 24 I'll bring it here. If we -- 25 THE COURT: Madam clerk, I have a better Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 141 1 thought, so you don't have to do that. Why don't 2 you take mine, it has my received stamp on it, run 3 to the copy room and make a copy. 4 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. That will be 5 fine. 6 THE COURT: Because the original will be filed 7 in the court file. 8 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 9 THE COURT: This is just an exhibit. 10 MR. FUGATE: That is perfect, Judge. 11 THE COURT: Madam clerk, you may be excused. 12 MR. DANDAR: I have a clean-up motion. 13 Whatever we haven't talked about on the plaintiff's 14 exhibits I would like to move into evidence, and I 15 don't know what they are until I talk with the 16 clerk, in case I missed any. 17 THE COURT: Any exhibit that either side hasn't 18 introduced, unless I have specifically excluded it 19 where there has been an argument and I said no, I'll 20 not introduce that, if they have forgotten to 21 introduce it and I haven't said it is excluded, it 22 is admitted. 23 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 24 THE COURT: I assume that would be just simply 25 an oversight. True? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 142 1 MR. FUGATE: True. 2 MR. DANDAR: True. That is three trues. 3 THE COURT: That is unusual. 4 Madam clerk, are you going to do that? Because 5 I'm waiting for that affidavit. That is my 6 nighttime reading tonight. 7 THE CLERK: I am going -- 8 THE COURT: I want you to go now and do it. 9 Okay? All right. So what day was today? 10 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. Mr. Lirot, if he 11 was here, he would tell us. It could be 36. 12 MR. FUGATE: I don't know. 13 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what I is. But 14 it has been a long hearing. It was one of the 15 longest hearings I participated in -- so because of 16 that, I am sure there has been times when I have 17 been hard on counsel, hard on witnesses, maybe hard 18 on personnel, although I usually try to be good to 19 my personnel. No one should take that personally. 20 I don't mean any ill feeling toward any lawyer I may 21 have barked at, any witness I may have barked at. 22 As I said, these are -- this is a trying type 23 of motion. I hope everybody understands that. The 24 accusations that are made are not pleasant. They 25 are not pleasant for the Court. Obviously they are Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 143 1 not pleasant for each other. 2 So it has been -- it has been -- if I fussed at 3 you, it is not personal. Simply it has been a long 4 hearing. I hope everyone thinks they had every 5 opportunity to make his or her -- his case. That 6 was my intent when we started this hearing, to make 7 sure it was a fair, impartial and objective hearing. 8 I think it has been. 9 I think we've got a lot of information in this 10 record that we probably don't need. But I think I 11 want more to be included than excluded for this 12 particular hearing. I could only pledge to both 13 sides that I will continue to give this my fair and 14 impartial and objective -- and give it my best 15 efforts to come up with a fair, impartial, objective 16 solution. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Thank you, all. We are adjourned. 19 (WHEREUPON, Court is adjourned at 4:50 p.m.) 20 ______________________________________ 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 144 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 19th day of July, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500