Bill Franks Transcripts // June 13 2002 - AM session
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
25
1
2
3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
6
7
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
8 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
9
10 Plaintiff,
11 vs. VOLUME 2
12 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
13 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14
Defendants.
15
_______________________________________/
16
17
18 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
19
CONTENTS: Testimony of William Franks.
20
DATE: June 13, 2002, morning session.
21
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
22 St. Petersburg, Florida.
23 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
24
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
25 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
26
1 APPEARANCES:
2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
DANDAR & DANDAR
3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
Tampa, FL 33602
4 Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
Tampa, FL 33602-4108
7 Attorney for Plaintiff
8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON
MOXON & KOBRIN
9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
Clearwater, FL 33755
10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
11
MR. LEE FUGATE and
12 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
13 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
Tampa, FL 33602-5147
14 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
15
MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
16 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
740 Broadway at Astor Place
17 New York, NY 10003-9518
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
18 Organization.
19 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG
740 Broadway, Fifth Floor
20 New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
21 Organization.
22
23
24
25
27
1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 WILLIAM WAGNER FRANKS 35 6
DIRECT Mr. Dandar 35 9
4 Recess 97 2
Recess 157 25
5 Reporter's Certificate 158 1
6
7
8
9
10
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12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
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28
1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:05 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Good morning. Well, are we ready
3 for another eventful day?
4 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is -- if I may, this
5 is a new binder. And I'll put the transcripts in
6 and -- from -- I think it's Friday and Monday.
7 And then this is the highlighted portions --
8 written or transcribed portions of the depositions
9 that were played, we told you we would provide that
10 to you.
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. FUGATE: Got the entire depos. And I guess
13 this would be a court copy and the exhibit, unless
14 Mr. Dandar has an objection. They were supposed to
15 go in as exhibits.
16 THE COURT: Is that all of the depositions?
17 MR. FUGATE: You have all the depositions. We
18 gave those to you.
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 MR. FUGATE: This is just the tabbed,
21 highlighted portions of what was played, so that --
22 THE COURT: I thought I already gave that to
23 the clerk for some reason --
24 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
25 THE COURT: -- but maybe I didn't.
29
1 MR. FUGATE: Well --
2 MR. DANDAR: We already had that.
3 MR. FUGATE: I think not, but I'll check.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. DANDAR: Is this my copy?
6 MR. FUGATE: No. One is for the court and one
7 for the clerk.
8 MR. DANDAR: Oh.
9 MR. FUGATE: So I'll check --
10 MR. DANDAR: I have that, I think.
11 MR. FUGATE: -- but let me --
12 THE COURT: Check with the clerk. Because I
13 thought I had something with blue tabs on it, that
14 day, that I kept turning to. Who would know?
15 MR. FUGATE: We'll check, but --
16 If you don't mind, I'll put these in, Judge,
17 and then get out of your way.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Does your notebook up there have
20 a big warning sign on it, like one of those poison
21 things?
22 THE COURT: No.
23 MR. WEINBERG: There's a lot of notebooks
24 around.
25 THE COURT: I know it. And I just hope the
30
1 clerk can keep mine straight. 'Cause I'm starting
2 to put a lot of the documents that you all are
3 giving me, that aren't even -- they're related to
4 this case, you know, like your memorandums and
5 stuff -- I'm having those put in a separate book so
6 I can kind of try to keep this hearing all together.
7 So I'm counting on my clerk to help me out.
8 Okay. Are we ready?
9 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are.
10 THE COURT: All right. You may proceed.
11 MR. DANDAR: All right.
12 THE COURT: And I don't -- you know, the -- the
13 argument that you made yesterday -- and then, of
14 course, I got your memorandum on why --
15 supplemental, on why Jesse Prince should be excluded
16 as a witness, which I assume would apply to this
17 witness and all these witnesses.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
19 THE COURT: The fact that I'm entertaining
20 their testimony doesn't mean that you can't be heard
21 on that. It's just that I think this transcript --
22 this hearing needs to be complete. We need to have
23 it in there. Somebody's going to -- if I make a
24 ruling that you're right, for example, I think
25 somebody might want to see what it is that they
31
1 would say, if they were saying something. I think
2 that helps me.
3 MR. LIEBERMAN: All right. We understand that,
4 your Honor.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
6 For purposes of the testimony, I don't need to
7 renew the objections I made yesterday?
8 THE COURT: No, you do not.
9 MR. WEINBERG: So they're preserved?
10 I will make hearsay objections --
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- and things like that, but
13 the -- as to those relevance, 404 and 406
14 objections --
15 THE COURT: Those are preserved.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Thank you.
17 THE COURT: Those are preserved. As are your
18 objections regarding the fact that you didn't, you
19 know, have a chance to depose this witness --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
21 THE COURT: -- and what have you.
22 Didn't you tell me you were a federal
23 prosecutor?
24 MR. WEINBERG: For many years, yes.
25 THE COURT: Then I know you've seen defense
32
1 lawyers get handed these little --
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I've been a defense lawyer
3 for more years than --
4 THE COURT: All right. Well, then you remember
5 how it is when -- you know, nobody cares in federal
6 court, that you don't have a clue what anybody's
7 going to say.
8 MR. WEINBERG: That's why I like being in state
9 court, where you know what is going on.
10 THE COURT: That's right. That is -- but
11 Florida is the only state that has the liberal
12 discovery --
13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
14 THE COURT: -- rules. And I've always been
15 sort of an advocate of that. Just like -- I think
16 that that's very helpful in resolving cases, as it
17 is in civil.
18 MR. WEINBERG: It is.
19 THE COURT: But you know, most states think
20 we're crazy that we allow that --
21 MR. WEINBERG: It's also fair.
22 THE COURT: -- kind of --
23 It's fair.
24 And it -- but it -- it saves a lot of time. I
25 mean it -- otherwise, I think defense lawyers would
33
1 be sort of on like a discovery mode, not knowing
2 necessarily what they're going to hear. But when
3 you know, you can kind of --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
5 THE COURT: -- cut your cross examination down.
6 All right. Mr. Dandar.
7 MR. DANDAR: The plaintiff is going to be
8 calling Bill Franks at this time. And we're calling
9 Bill Franks who is someone who has never met
10 Mr. Minton; never been part of Lisa McPherson Trust;
11 was in the Church of Scientology for 20 years; was
12 at the highest ranks of Scientology under
13 Mr. Hubbard.
14 And I'm doing this because of the arguments
15 raised by the defense over and over and over again
16 that Jesse Prince and Vaughn Young are just paid-for
17 witnesses who will say anything that they get money
18 for. So I'm bringing this person in, who has no
19 connection whatsoever with the estate or the Lisa
20 McPherson Trust or Mr. Minton and all these
21 litigations that you heard Ms. Yingling talk about.
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. DANDAR: So, Bill Franks.
24 Want me to get him?
25 THE BAILIFF: I'll get him.
34
1 MR. FUGATE: While he's on the way, Judge, as
2 usual, I misspoke. That -- that package is the
3 entire transcript of each one that was played with
4 the tabbed highlights --
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. FUGATE: -- which is what you requested.
7 So that you've got the tabbed highlights -- that's
8 the transcript.
9 And I guess for the record, we would ask that
10 they be -- do you want them as exhibits or --
11 THE COURT: I don't know.
12 MR. FUGATE: We'll cross that bridge --
13 MR. WEINBERG: I would say why not?
14 THE COURT: Yeah. You know what I think, I
15 think that what we have is the actual testimony --
16 MR. FUGATE: Right.
17 THE COURT: -- that that's the testimony in the
18 hearing. So I think that what this is probably
19 should be like a court's exhibit.
20 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Because this is what you
21 requested so you can read it in your entirety.
22 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, do I have another
23 couple court's exhibits?
24 THE CLERK: Yes.
25 THE COURT: We'll make it Court's Exhibit next
35
1 number. And I will probably at some point in time
2 put the rest of the depositions. I've talked about
3 needing to be part of this record also as court's
4 exhibits.
5 _______________________________________
6 WILLIAM WAGNER FRANKS,
7 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
8 and testified as follows:
9 DIRECT EXAMINATION
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Please state your full name.
12 A William Wagner Franks.
13 Q And what city and state do you live in?
14 A Malvern, Pennsylvania.
15 Q Is that outside of Philadelphia?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And Mr. Franks, could you give the court the
18 benefit of your formal education background?
19 A I have a BA in economics from Hobart College.
20 Q And where is that located?
21 A New York State.
22 Q What year did you graduate from college?
23 A '68.
24 Q All right. And after graduating from college,
25 what did you do?
36
1 A I enlisted in the Marines.
2 Q And how long were you in the Marines?
3 A Pretty short time. I broke my back at boot camp,
4 and I was in body cast, and I got routed out.
5 Q Okay. And after that did you become a member of
6 the Church of Scientology?
7 A Yeah. Shortly thereafter.
8 Q All right. And within -- how long were you a
9 member of the Church of Scientology?
10 A 13 and a half, 14 years.
11 Q Okay. And did you become a staff member in the
12 Church of Scientology?
13 THE COURT: Can we get a year on this?
14 What year was that, Mr. Franks?
15 THE WITNESS: I joined in '68.
16 THE COURT: Thank you.
17 THE WITNESS: And I left in December of '81.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q And what was -- just -- not in explicit detail,
21 but a general overview of your experience as a staff member.
22 Were you a Sea Org member?
23 A Yes. I joined the Sea Org in November of 1970 on
24 the ship.
25 Q The Apollo?
37
1 A The Apollo, yeah.
2 Q That was a ship that was owned by the Church of
3 Scientology?
4 A That's right.
5 Q Okay. And could you tell us your overall general
6 review of your positions in the Church of Scientology as a
7 staff member?
8 A Okay. I tried to joined the Sea Org in '68 -- I
9 guess it was in September -- in Los Angeles. But I had a --
10 I was still in this body cast, so I -- I didn't join the Sea
11 Org. I went on staff and held numerous positions as a
12 supervisor; as a -- eventually the head of the organization
13 in L.A., called the L.A. org.
14 And I left to do the Flag executive briefing
15 course, to the ship, beginning in November of 1970. And
16 I -- and I did the organizational executive course and the
17 Flag executive briefing course.
18 At that point, it was brand new, and Hubbard was
19 pretty much the supervisor at that time.
20 Q So did you work with Mr. Hubbard every day?
21 A While I was on the course, yeah.
22 Q Okay. And how long did you stay on the ship?
23 A I was there for about two and a half months.
24 I left, went back to L.A., to be the commanding
25 officer of the L.A. org, in February of 1971. And then I
38
1 was back on the ship by June of '71. And I was on that --
2 on the ship that time for about eight months.
3 Q What was your highest rank as a Sea Org member?
4 A Lieutenant commander.
5 Q Is a lieutenant commander below or above the rank
6 of captain?
7 A Below.
8 Q Was that a permanent rank or a brevet rank?
9 A I don't think we had that distinction back then.
10 Q Between permanent and brevet?
11 A Yeah.
12 THE COURT: To be honest with you, I still
13 don't quite understand the distinction. And he
14 obviously can't tell me, if he wasn't there, but so
15 that you all know, if that's important, I still
16 don't quite understand the difference.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q All right. Now, the Church of Scientology has
19 something called a bridge, correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And how far up on the bridge did you go?
22 A Well, on the training side, I was a class 9.
23 Q Is that class 9 auditor?
24 A Yes.
25 Q All right.
39
1 A And on the auditing side, it was OT 7.
2 Q What was your -- how long were you the commanding
3 officer of the L.A. org -- Los Angeles org?
4 A On and off for about two years.
5 Q Okay. And what did you do after that?
6 A Well, interspersed with that I was also -- I went
7 to Boston as part of a command team to make money to send
8 back to the ship in '72. And I did that for a while. And
9 then I went back to the L.A. org, and I -- as the commanding
10 officer. And I was there for actually, I guess, another two
11 years. So it was probably about three years total.
12 Q Let me interrupt you.
13 When you said you were part of a command team to
14 go to the Boston org, what does that mean?
15 A Well, we were -- we had a cash flow problem on the
16 ship. And this would be the fall of 1971. And Hubbard had
17 the idea that -- to send me -- and I guess there were six
18 other guys -- out. And we chose Boston, because Boston was
19 an affluent town, to make money and send money back to the
20 ship on a weekly basis.
21 Q How could you --
22 A Which we did.
23 Q How could you and the six other people from L.A.
24 go into Boston where -- wasn't that a separate church?
25 A Well, we were the Sea Org. And you know, the idea
40
1 was, Sea Org -- the way Hubbard had set up the Sea Org -- I
2 don't know if you're interested in this, but -- he had set
3 up the Sea Org as -- his word was a Fabian group. In other
4 words, we were flexible. We could go and do anything. We
5 were on a ship and we could go and take over any position in
6 any organization when needed, when there was a -- a cause to
7 do so.
8 So as a Sea Org mission, we went to Boston org.
9 Q Okay. How long did you stay there?
10 A Till May of '72.
11 Q How many months or years was that?
12 A Four and a half, five months.
13 Q Five months. Okay. And went back to L.A. after
14 that?
15 A Yes.
16 Q Okay. And did you ever change your position of
17 commanding officer in the L.A. org to something else?
18 A No. I don't believe so.
19 Q Okay. Did your -- did you have any other posts in
20 your career within the Church of Scientology other than the
21 commanding officer of the L.A. org?
22 A Well, yeah. I was no longer the -- it was --
23 sometime in the middle of '74, I went back to the ship. The
24 ship was in Morocco at the time. And I think I did the RPF.
25 THE COURT: I don't know what that is. I'm
41
1 sorry.
2 THE WITNESS: That's a Rehabilitation Project
3 Force. I was on the deck, getting rehabilitated.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Is that a punishment?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Had you done something that wasn't acceptable to a
8 senior of yours.
9 A Yeah. Well, what had happened was my wife had
10 been put on the RPF. She had -- was also working with me at
11 the L.A. org at the time. And Jeanie -- that was her
12 name -- I sent a telex that, "Either you send her back or
13 I'm coming up there." And they said, "All right, you're on
14 the RPF." So I did that for about a month or two, and then
15 became the director of training at Flag.
16 Q At Clearwater?
17 A No, no. On the ship.
18 Q On the ship.
19 A No. Flag at that time -- Clearwater had not
20 happened yet.
21 Q Okay.
22 A And Flag happened -- here in Clearwater, happened
23 in '75, when the ship left, made the transatlantic voyage,
24 and Hubbard decided at that point that we were going to find
25 a town to set up business. And that turned out to be
42
1 Clearwater.
2 Q Okay. Now, are you familiar with the policies
3 written by Mr. Hubbard?
4 MR. WEINBERG: Could we be slightly more
5 specific, your Honor?
6 THE COURT: Right.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Are you familiar with all the policies written by
9 Mr. Hubbard?
10 A I believe so. As I said, I did the organizational
11 executive course. That is all of the policy that he ever
12 wrote. And then I did the Flag executive briefings course.
13 And that was sort of developed as I was doing it. So yes, I
14 would say I was pretty thoroughly -- I don't believe there
15 was any policy, at the point that I studied that stuff, that
16 I hadn't studied.
17 THE COURT: Are you -- are you suggesting that
18 in this org executive course, that the -- a purpose
19 of the course was to familiarize yourself or
20 understand or learn or whatever it might be the --
21 the various policies?
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what the course is
23 all about. It's -- it's supposed to be all of the
24 policies that he ever wrote.
25 THE COURT: I see.
43
1 And how long was that course?
2 THE WITNESS: How long?
3 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
4 THE WITNESS: Six weeks, perhaps.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- and your Honor, just --
7 the -- the course he took was in 1968?
8 THE WITNESS: No. Sorry. This would be in
9 1970/'71.
10 MR. WEINBERG: So it would be a policy --
11 Never mind. I'll have a chance.
12 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to approach the witness
13 and hand him Plaintiff's Exhibit 94. Hand a copy to
14 the court.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Mr. Franks, can you identify Plaintiff's Exhibit
17 94?
18 A Sure. Keeping Scientology Working is the name of
19 the policy.
20 Q Is the import of that policy that, as Mr. Hubbard
21 states --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Form. This is
23 leading.
24 He can ask him, I suppose, if there's something
25 about the policy that's important. He's about to
44
1 tell him what's important about it.
2 THE COURT: Well, I don't know that he can
3 really tell this witness. He probably doesn't
4 know --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
6 THE COURT: -- what this witness would know.
7 MR. DANDAR: I --
8 MR. WEINBERG: -- it's his witness, and he was
9 listed on his witness list as a -- as a religion
10 expert.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Ask him what the purpose of
12 the policy is.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q What's the purpose of this policy?
15 First of all, identify the policy.
16 A It's called Keeping Scientology Working.
17 Q And what is the purpose of that policy? And I
18 only showed you the first page. I mean, I have the book
19 here if you want to see the whole thing, but --
20 A Right.
21 Well, I believe the policy goes on to state 10
22 steps.
23 And the purpose of the policy order, as I say, you
24 never have a situation where the policy didn't work. In all
25 of his experience, it is a matter of, locate -- he's writing
45
1 this policy to instruct Scientologists to say -- to think
2 it's the policy that doesn't -- it's not -- never the policy
3 that doesn't work; it's always some misapplication. And in
4 every problem that he's ever had in Scientology, it's always
5 invariably been -- well, you know, somebody says that
6 something doesn't work, and he goes and investigates and he
7 finds out that indeed it was the policy that wasn't being
8 followed. It wasn't that it didn't work.
9 And that's the emphasis. The policy does work;
10 it's that it was misapplied somewhere. And so that he is
11 inculcating everybody, in this policy letter, to find where
12 the misapplication is and never get to thinking that the
13 policy doesn't work.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, for the record, we
15 object to this witness, or any witness outside the
16 Church of Scientology, particularly somebody who's
17 been outside the church for over 20 years, to giving
18 his -- to giving interpretation of what religious
19 documents are.
20 THE COURT: I understand that is the position.
21 I understand it's a First Amendment position. I'm
22 going to let it be argued at some point in time, and
23 you may well prevail on that. However, until that
24 time, I have to hear what he has to say. If you're
25 correct, all this will be thrown out.
46
1 MR. WEINBERG: I just wanted to -- I'm sorry.
2 THE COURT: You don't have to -- that matter
3 has been brought to my attention several times. I
4 assume it will be argued at the appropriate time.
5 And you don't have to keep objecting. You will have
6 a continuing --
7 MR. WEINBERG: That's why I did it once, just
8 to make sure that --
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. WEINBERG: -- it's clear that my silence
11 on --
12 THE COURT: No. And your silence on all of
13 this matter that may be shown to him to look at
14 policy, interpret policy -- I understand that it is
15 the church's position that that is inappropriate for
16 any witness, based on the First Amendment, federal,
17 state, RFRA. And I'll let you argue that at the
18 appropriate time.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Now, does it take any interpretation for a
22 non-Scientologist to read, under the special message of
23 Exhibit 94, quote, It was true in 1965 when I wrote it; it
24 was true in 1970 when I had it reissued, and I am reissuing
25 it now in 1980.
47
1 Does that -- is there a different interpretation
2 than just the plain reading of that -- those sentences?
3 A No. That's -- it says what it means.
4 Q What happens if someone, as a member of the Church
5 of Scientology, tries to change the policies from how
6 Mr. Hubbard wrote them?
7 THE COURT: Well, if that ever happened. I
8 mean -- I mean, I don't know that that ever
9 happened.
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, I don't know. I -- that's
11 why I asked him -- going to lead up to that.
12 A Well, what he's saying is there can't be any
13 variance. And if there is, a person is put into Ethics
14 and -- it's considered to be counter to the survival of
15 Scientology, and a person is put into Ethics, and they deal
16 with them. And it -- I mean, it can mean that they're
17 routed out of the church.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q So is Ethics a reward or is it a punishment?
20 A It's a punishment.
21 Q If someone tried to change, for example -- we'll
22 get to this -- a rundown, like the introspection rundown,
23 and didn't have Mr. Hubbard's approval, would that be
24 subject to the same circumstances?
25 A There can be no variation. And this is repeated
48
1 in just about every policy letter that I ever read in some
2 form. You have to do it the way Hubbard said do it.
3 Q Do you recognize this book, The Science Of
4 Survival, written by Mr. Hubbard, and I think published in
5 the '50s; this particular one I have is copyrighted 1968.
6 A Yes. I read it on a briefing course.
7 Q Can anyone other than Mr. Hubbard say this book is
8 outdated and no longer in use?
9 A No. It's pretty monolithic. I mean, Hubbard is
10 the source. And there's only one source, and that's L. Ron
11 Hubbard. And there can't be any variation from that.
12 Q Now, Mr. Moxon, who is -- do you know Mr. Moxon?
13 A Yeah. Sure.
14 MR. DANDAR: Is he here?
15 Yeah.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Did you work with Mr. Moxon?
18 A Yeah. Well, I can't say I worked with him, but I
19 worked beside him in Washington, D.C. in '70 -- '75 through
20 '77.
21 Q Were you senior to him?
22 A No.
23 Q What was he?
24 A He was -- he worked in the Guardian's Office. He
25 was -- as I recall he was the AG legal; assistant guardian
49
1 legal.
2 Q And Mr. Moxon in court has compared Scientology
3 policies and procedures with being the same as the 10
4 Commandments would be, for instance, for a Christian or a
5 Catholic. Would you agree with that?
6 THE COURT: As compared to what?
7 MR. DANDAR: Compared it to the 10
8 Commandments.
9 THE COURT: Compared what? What are --
10 MR. DANDAR: Oh. The policies of Mr. Hubbard.
11 THE COURT: I didn't hear him say that. I
12 heard him talk about a book, that there was a book,
13 a little book. And in that book, it had some
14 things --
15 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay.
16 THE COURT: -- and I think he indicated that
17 those were similar to the 10 Commandments.
18 MR. DANDAR: All right.
19 THE COURT: I don't think that was policy. As
20 a matter of fact, as I looked at that book, it
21 specifically said it was not religious material.
22 MR. DANDAR: I think the court's talking about
23 The Way to Happiness booklet if I'm not mistaken.
24 THE COURT: Or it was not policy or something.
25 I mean, I'd have to read it again, but I --
50
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: -- I noted that it was -- it was
3 not --
4 But I think that's what Mr. Moxon was talking
5 about.
6 MR. DANDAR: In addition to that, Judge,
7 Mr. Franks -- and I'll get corrected if I'm wrong --
8 but I believe Mr. Moxon compared the policies and
9 the words of Mr. Hubbard to the -- the scripture in
10 the Bible.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Have you ever heard Mr. Hubbard say that?
13 A Say what?
14 Q That the -- that what he writes is -- is similar
15 or cannot be changed, as the words in the Bible cannot be
16 changed?
17 A Is that what you mean when you asked about --
18 I'm not sure -- I got lost in the 10 Commandments.
19 Q All right. I apparently did too. Let's just go
20 over that. I'll come back to that if I need to.
21 And within your experience in the Church of
22 Scientology, is there any policy -- even though it can't be
23 altered or changed by anyone other than Mr. Hubbard, is
24 there any circumstance where a policy can be ignored by
25 staff of the Church of Scientology?
51
1 A No. It's pretty absolute.
2 Q Is there anything within the writings of
3 Mr. Hubbard that states that, as time goes on, if things
4 change, someone in the Church of Scientology can change any
5 of the writings of Mr. Hubbard?
6 A No, not that I ever --
7 Q Are you familiar with a policy called Integrity of
8 Source?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And what is that?
11 A Well, that talks about the importance of realizing
12 that L. Ron Hubbard was L. Ron Hubbard, and he was the
13 source, this was his baby, his technology, and that nobody
14 could tamper with it.
15 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Hubbard was prolific in writing
16 policies, wasn't he?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Do you recall him writing a policy on how to wash
19 windows?
20 A It was a Flag order. Yes. Newspaper.
21 Q As far as you know, is there any -- is there
22 anything that is not contained in what's called the green
23 volumes and the red volumes in reference to how a
24 Scientologist should govern every aspect of his or her life?
25 A No. He used to say if it isn't written, it's not
52
1 true. That was -- that was one of the oft-repeated pages in
2 Scientology. If it's not written, it's not true. Which
3 means to say that he's written everything that you need to
4 know.
5 Q What happens if a -- a member of the Church of
6 Scientology says that The Science of Survival -- that was
7 written in 1952 -- it's not good today in 2002? Is there a
8 policy on that?
9 A Yeah. That's considered --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. I -- is he asking
11 from his experience in 1981 or is he asking what
12 happens today if that happens?
13 THE COURT: He's asking from his -- his
14 perspective when he was there.
15 MR. DANDAR: Right.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q What happens in 1981, if someone stood up, who was
18 a Scientologist and says, "Ah, this book, The Science of
19 Survival, that was written in '52, that's not good today"?
20 A He gets charged with a crime or a high crime.
21 Q And Mr. Franks, as you sit here today in 2002, are
22 you aware of anything written by Mr. Hubbard that would
23 state that what he wrote back when you were a member of the
24 Church of Scientology could be changed by someone who is a
25 member of the Church of Scientology today?
53
1 A No. He was pretty clear about that.
2 Q Now, in addition to someone saying the book is too
3 old and doesn't apply today, what if somebody who is a
4 member of the Church of Scientology does not follow the
5 policies as written exactly by Mr. Hubbard?
6 A Well, he gets corrected. And if he doesn't -- if
7 he doesn't correct his ways, he's routed out of the church.
8 THE COURT: Corrected through auditing?
9 THE WITNESS: Well, possibly. It would be --
10 cramming would probably be the first thing; that he
11 would be put into a course of studies to correct his
12 errors. And if he didn't -- if that didn't do it,
13 then he would be routed to Ethics.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Now, in this case, we've heard a lot about
16 something called a PC folder. Can you tell us what a PC
17 folder is?
18 A Sure. It stands for preclear. And that's anybody
19 who's getting audited.
20 Q And is there policies written by Mr. Hubbard on
21 what is required to be in a member's PC folder?
22 A Yes. You have to -- it's -- in a session, you
23 have the auditor and you have PC, the person receiving the
24 auditing. And the auditor's -- he's writing down what's
25 occurring; the time, the notations about what's happening
54
1 with the meter, and what -- and what the PC's responses are
2 to the questions that you're asking.
3 Then the session is completed. It goes to what's
4 called an examiner, who notes the meter phenomenon; you
5 know, the Z meter. And then the folder goes to the CS. The
6 CS goes over what happened in session, grades the auditor
7 on -- on the session, and makes comments, and then directs
8 for the next session.
9 In addition to this, anything else, like knowledge
10 reports or the person who's receiving auditing -- also the
11 routing form -- the routing form would be with the invoice.
12 In other words, the preclear had to have paid for the
13 auditing. That would be in the folder. There are
14 instructions that the auditor and the CS are supposed to
15 make sure that the PC has paid. And that would be on this
16 thing called a routing form.
17 So then the CS writes what's called a CS, which is
18 the CS -- the instructions for the next session. He grades
19 the auditor on what happened in the last session, and the
20 instructions for the next session. And that's all in the
21 folder. And then it goes back to the auditor.
22 If the auditor has to go to cramming to be
23 corrected because he didn't follow the instructions, didn't
24 follow the technology as Hubbard had laid it out, he goes to
25 cramming. The folder goes to cramming. The auditor also
55
1 goes to cramming, gets corrected, and then it goes back to
2 the CS with the notes from the cramming officer that all
3 this was accomplished. And the CS notes that the auditor's
4 now been corrected, and gives instructions for the next
5 session.
6 Q Can anything be removed from the PC folder and
7 destroyed?
8 A No. There's pretty strict policy on that, that --
9 about the integrity of the folders; that they have to stay
10 confidential; that you can't use information out of the PC
11 folder; you can't let other people see the PC folder. It's
12 confidential between the PC, the CS and the auditor and
13 possibly the cramming officer, if the folder goes to the
14 cramming officer. And that's it. Nobody else can see it.
15 Q Can the people from the Office of Special Affairs,
16 or when you were in the church, the Guardian's Office, look
17 at a parishioner's PC folder?
18 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Let's make this
19 clear he's talking about the Office of Special
20 Affairs, which obviously wasn't created until after
21 he left the church. Is it a question about the
22 Guardian's Office?
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q All right. We'll get there, but I'm kind of
25 jumping too much here.
56
1 When you were in the Church of Scientology --
2 First of all, when you were in the Church of
3 Scientology, what was the highest position you held?
4 A Chairman of the board and ED Int.
5 Q And ED Int stands for what?
6 A Oh, executive director international.
7 Q And who was above you?
8 A No one. I was supposed to be it.
9 Q Were you appointed by Mr. Hubbard?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Were you appointed executive director
12 international for life?
13 A Yes.
14 Q And chairman of the board. What was -- what was
15 that position? Chairman of the board of what?
16 A Board of directors of the Church of Scientology.
17 Q So how long did you hold that position, chairman
18 of the board of the Church of Scientology and executive
19 director international, for life?
20 A It was -- it was a year.
21 Q And how did you -- did you just quit, or what
22 happened?
23 A No. I was voted out. I think it was the 27th of
24 December, '81.
25 Q And voted out by whom?
57
1 A The other members of the board of directors.
2 Q Okay. And what happened to the part of -- at the
3 end of executive director international for life -- what
4 happened, for life, that you could be voted out?
5 A Well, I guess they didn't follow that.
6 Q And then you left?
7 A Yes. I left.
8 Q Okay. And in your non-Scientology life after
9 that -- I forgot to ask you this -- what -- what occupation
10 do you have?
11 A I trade commodities. I've done that for 20 years,
12 a little over 20 years.
13 Q And have you been successful at that?
14 A Yeah. Well, I have a living. I've got a house,
15 I've got three kids, and I'm surviving.
16 Q Okay. Do you work for somebody?
17 A No. I work for myself.
18 Q Okay. Now, back to the PC folders --
19 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. What -- I
20 don't understand it.
21 You were chairman of the board. And you had
22 been appointed by Mr. Hubbard. And who else was on
23 the board? I mean, chairman of the board -- are
24 there other board members?
25 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. David Miscavige, Liz
58
1 Ingber, Mark Ingber -- I mean, this is going back a
2 way. I can't remember all the names. But there
3 were probably about seven other members.
4 THE COURT: And they were lesser than you or
5 they were not --
6 You were the chairman?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Okay. And did this not have to be
9 approved by Mr. Hubbard?
10 THE WITNESS: Well, for tax reasons,
11 Mr. Hubbard, or Ron, as we called him, was
12 supposedly offlines. But you're probably correct.
13 He probably had to have approved this.
14 THE COURT: So you could be appointed by
15 Mr. Hubbard and you could be removed by Mr. Hubbard.
16 THE WITNESS: Yes.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q So when you were chairman of the board, though,
20 you were appointed the chairman of the board by Mr. Hubbard
21 rather than the board of directors making a vote about it --
22 A Yes.
23 Q -- is that right?
24 A That's correct.
25 Q And when you were voted off by the board of
59
1 directors, do you know if Mr. Hubbard participated in that
2 vote?
3 A I assumed that he did. Part of that assumption
4 was, several months later, I was living in L.A. and he sent
5 somebody to find me and -- well, it turned out that the
6 people I was staying with were actually -- were working for
7 the church but I didn't know that at the time -- and said
8 that he had arranged an auditing session for me, and that he
9 was following -- I was given this -- they call them an
10 R-factor, meaning reality. He announced that I -- this
11 auditor that Hubbard had, was following what was happening
12 with me -- that I had to be taken off of the post of
13 chairman of the board, and that -- but that he was really
14 concerned about me. And so he did this auditing thing on
15 me, the auditor did.
16 He also sent me to this doctor, Dr. Dang
17 (phonetic). And as it turned out, they were convinced that
18 I had been -- the term is PDH. That means pain, drug and
19 hypnosis -- I had been fed drugs by the FBI. And Dr. Dang
20 did this drug test on me. Well, of course, I wasn't taking
21 any drugs, so --
22 But that just confirmed that Hubbard was, you
23 know -- had his fingers on the pulse. To me, anyways.
24 Q Well, you never received a letter, a note, a phone
25 call, or a presence of Mr. Hubbard to tell you that he was
60
1 in agreement with these other board members voting you out.
2 A No.
3 Q And how was it when you were staying with people
4 who were working for the Church of Scientology and you
5 didn't know about it?
6 A Well, I didn't have any money. I mean, when I --
7 it happened in Clearwater. I had just the shirt on my back
8 and a one-way ticket to L.A.
9 So I went to L.A., and these people who presented
10 themselves as friends to me, offered me to stay at their
11 house. I don't remember their name. It was about -- well,
12 about that period of time when the auditor came to do this
13 thing, that I had gone to the doctor.
14 I also realized that I was being watched 24 hours
15 a day, but I -- I hadn't realized that up till then.
16 Q And when did you start your commodities trading?
17 A Well, about a year later.
18 Q Okay. And you've been at that ever since?
19 A Yes.
20 Q Okay. Now --
21 A I've totally not had anything to do with
22 Scientology. I -- I had gotten involved in this Julie
23 Christofferson case up in October -- in -- in '85. And that
24 was a mistake. I -- but I had -- I did it. And -- but
25 that's the only involvement that I have.
61
1 I mean, I did it, saying I testified on behalf of
2 the plaintiff against the church. But that was -- that's
3 been it. I've just refused to have anything to do with
4 anybody.
5 Q So you've -- you didn't walk out of the Church of
6 Scientology and say, "This is a bunch of baloney. I can't
7 take it anymore. I need to get out of here and get back to
8 the real world," anything like that?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form, your
10 Honor.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q All right. You didn't leave the Church of
14 Scientology because you wanted to, is that right?
15 A Well, probably not, no.
16 MR. DANDAR: That was a terrible form question
17 then.
18 THE COURT: Well, let me --
19 When you were voted off the board, could you
20 have done something else or were you given another
21 position and you elected not to stay; or when you
22 were voted off the board, were you voted off the
23 board and said -- told to -- you had to leave the
24 church?
25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I was -- the latter. I
62
1 was offered a free skiing vacation in the Pyrenees
2 with Hubbard's son-in-law, a guy named John Hurwich
3 at the time. And I thought that was a little fishy,
4 so I just -- I just left.
5 But I was -- it was made very clear to me that
6 my presence wasn't wanted.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Now, in the Church of Scientology, who possesses a
10 person's PC folder?
11 A Well, it's -- as I said, it's the CS who has it,
12 or the auditor who has it, or the cramming officer who has
13 it, or the examiner who has it, when he examines the PC.
14 And the Ethics officer, if it goes to Ethics. And that's
15 it. And when the folder isn't in use, it's supposed to be
16 locked up.
17 Q Now, when you were in Scientology, there was a --
18 either a division or a department -- I forget which is the
19 word right now -- 20. Do you recall that?
20 A Division 20? Yes. That would be the Guardian's
21 Office.
22 Q All right. What was the purpose of the Guardian's
23 Office?
24 A Guardian's Office handled all -- anything having
25 to do with government; anything -- anything that was
63
1 considered to be a threat. It handled all PR with the
2 government; PR flaps, problems, legal issues -- you know,
3 the one I mentioned, Rick, he was head of the legal portion
4 of the Guardian's Office in Washington, D.C.
5 So it's -- it's legal, PR and investigations.
6 Q What type of investigations?
7 A Somebody's attacking the church, find out the dirt
8 on that person, find out things that you can use to change
9 that person's mind about attacking the church.
10 Q Give me an example of what you're talking about,
11 find out things that you can change the person's mind, who's
12 attacking the church.
13 A Do I have to mention names?
14 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me?
15 MR. WEINBERG: I object to competence. I mean,
16 he's asking -- Mr. Dandar's asking this witness
17 about what the Guardian's Office did.
18 THE COURT: Well --
19 MR. WEINBERG: I guess I'd like to know if he
20 was in the Guardian's Office and if he had any, you
21 know, firsthand knowledge in the Guardian's Office.
22 Which doesn't even exist anymore, as we know, but --
23 Leave relevance aside. But how about
24 competence?
25 THE COURT: And chairman of the board -- did
64
1 you have interplay or knowledge about what was going
2 on in the Guardian's Office?
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Particularly the last
4 year, I was intimately involved with the Guardian's
5 Office. David Miscavige and I went on a mission to
6 take over the Guardian's Office in early summer of
7 '81, and -- and that was sort of coincident with
8 Mary Sue and the other 10 people going to jail.
9 THE COURT: I'm going to assume that he has
10 competence to testify about this. I'm not sure it's
11 relevant with what we're here today to do, but --
12 What is the relevance?
13 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to get to it.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q So you and David Miscavige went on a mission to
16 take over the Guardian's Office?
17 A Yes.
18 Q And that's because of the criminal activities
19 of -- called Operation Snow White, where they broke into the
20 FBI and the State Department and the Supreme Court building
21 in D.C.?
22 A And the Treasury Department.
23 Q And the Treasury Department.
24 A Yes.
25 Q And that resulted in their prosecution and
65
1 convictions, correct?
2 THE COURT: Truthfully, I don't know how this
3 is relevant. This is something that occurred way
4 back, a long time ago. Even if it's true that there
5 was wrongdoing back then, this is 19 -- this is
6 2002. And really, that isn't relevant to this
7 proceeding.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Did you disband the Guardian's Office?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And did the -- some other name get assigned to
12 that particular division or department, whatever it's
13 called?
14 A Yeah. Office of Special Affairs.
15 Q And did their function change?
16 A Well, in so far as-- yes, insofar as it was
17 absorbed by the Sea Org. Everybody was made to join the Sea
18 Org and --
19 Q All right. Now, what did you -- you were going to
20 give us an example, when you said Ames. Is that what you
21 said? Somebody named Ames? Or did I misunderstand
22 everything?
23 A No. I don't think I mentioned any names.
24 Q Okay. You -- I asked you for an example of this
25 Department 20. You said they -- they find things to make
66
1 people change their mind. And I asked you for an -- one
2 example.
3 A Right.
4 Q Okay. Were you going to give me an example or --
5 A No. I -- I was -- I didn't have an example.
6 There are plenty of examples of people that were attacking
7 the church. And they would find information on them and,
8 through a sort of adept means, let that person know that the
9 church knew what was going on. And whether it be an
10 attorney, a judge, things would -- would slack up -- their
11 attack on the church would slack up.
12 Q Okay.
13 THE COURT: I don't understand a thing he just
14 said, but I did hear the word "judge," and that
15 always concerns me.
16 What are you talking about?
17 MR. DANDAR: Tell her --
18 THE WITNESS: He asked me about what -- how
19 they would use intelligence-gathering, the church.
20 MR. WEINBERG: This is the Guardians --
21 I mean, I just want to make sure --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- they're talking about the
24 Guardian's Office --
25 THE WITNESS: Right.
67
1 MR. WEINBERG: -- that was disbanded.
2 THE WITNESS: I wasn't there when OSA really
3 became OSA.
4 But the Guardian's Office would find
5 information on people who were in a position to do
6 harm to the church and -- and blackmail them.
7 THE COURT: Such as lawyers and judges, you
8 specifically mentioned.
9 THE WITNESS: As an example. I didn't --
10 just -- they didn't just aim at lawyers and judges.
11 I mean, it was politicians -- I believe the mayor of
12 Clearwater, Gabe Cazares, was an example.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Any judges?
15 A Yeah. There were a few.
16 Q Any lawyers?
17 A Yes.
18 Q How would they attack a lawyer?
19 A Well, you know, it was sort of no-holds-barred,
20 because --
21 MR. DANDAR: Could I have Mr. Weinberg's
22 silence, please? It's really disturbing.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, then I'll get up and
24 object. Because this is disgusting, is all I can
25 say.
68
1 People were prosecuted over 20 years ago,
2 people that weren't even members of the Sea Org, for
3 running this -- this operation in the Guardian's
4 Office. They were -- they were prosecuted. The
5 church cooperated. They were sent to jail. The
6 entire church was reorganized after that, after
7 Mr. Franks left. And there's some suggestion that
8 there's some relevance to this as to a judge, as to
9 a lawyer. And I don't like it.
10 THE COURT: I would agree with you. There's no
11 relevance. He said he was going to get to it, so
12 I'm always reluctant to cut somebody off --
13 MR. WEINBERG: All right. I'm sorry.
14 THE COURT: -- when they say they're going to
15 get to it.
16 MR. WEINBERG: And I apologize to Mr. Dandar,
17 but -- but -- but my anger level is rising, so --
18 THE COURT: Well, keep it in tow in my
19 courtroom.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'll try to.
21 THE COURT: This can't get out of hand.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. I don't normally
23 do that, but --
24 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- I --
69
1 THE COURT: What did you mean, sir, when you
2 indicated that you and Mr. Miscavige went after the
3 Guardian's Office? Did that mean that they were out
4 of line and you were trying to --
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: -- revamp it to do a better --
7 THE WITNESS: We were trying to revamp it.
8 Also Mr. Hubbard had indicated that he wanted
9 Mary Sue out of the picture and he wanted her
10 offered up to the government. And so a mission was
11 formed to remove Mary Sue, Jane Kember, Mo Budlong,
12 all the people, and get them to the FBI, and take
13 over the Guardian's Office.
14 THE COURT: And is that because they had
15 committed these crimes?
16 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
17 THE COURT: And so in essence, Mr. Hubbard, if
18 I'm following you, said, "These folks are committing
19 crimes. It's causing us problems. Offer them up
20 and let's reorganize the office."
21 THE WITNESS: He didn't say that they were
22 committing crimes. He said to get rid of the
23 people, yes.
24 THE COURT: Okay.
25
70
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Mr. Hubbard have any knowledge of the Snow White
3 Operation?
4 A Yeah. He wrote it.
5 Q So he offered up his wife to -- so he wouldn't --
6 THE COURT: You know, this is really irrelevant
7 and unnecessary, and it doesn't impress me. Because
8 as far as I can tell, those things went on a long
9 time ago. These people have paid their debt to
10 society, assuming that there was a debt to society,
11 which I have to assume there was since the
12 government prosecuted them and they went to prison.
13 And I -- it doesn't have anything to do with this.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Franks, if the -- if this particular
16 section -- and I'm trying to figure out if it's a department
17 or a division -- is still in the Church of Scientology
18 org -- organization board, and they're still using orders
19 and programs from the Guardian's Office but now they're
20 called the Office of Special Affairs, do you, as a former
21 chairman of the board and executive director international
22 for life, have any knowledge whatsoever that what
23 Mr. Hubbard wrote for this particular department, even
24 though its name changed, would differ today than it did back
25 in the '70s and '80s?
71
1 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection as to the
2 form; objection as to calling for speculation --
3 THE COURT: If he wasn't there, he simply can't
4 tell us. So that's sustained. If he wasn't there,
5 he doesn't know. It was done away with and
6 something else was brought into play.
7 And besides that, from what I understand, is --
8 the GO was for and the OSA was for, even if it was
9 the same, you'd have to bring it up to date as to
10 some relevance that has to do with here.
11 MR. DANDAR: Has to do with --
12 THE COURT: And if the idea is to investigate
13 somebody and blackmail somebody, the reality of it
14 is, is the issue here, Mr. Dandar, is -- is a --
15 Oh, are you trying to suggest this is something
16 that was -- that happened to Mr. Minton?
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I don't know that this
19 witness is competent to suggest what could have
20 happened in this new office and whether or not that
21 is something that they would have done, if he wasn't
22 there after it was reorganized. Maybe Mr. Prince
23 can, but I don't know that this witness can.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Well, the -- the point of my question is, if it's
72
1 in the same department and division as the Guardian's
2 Office, based upon what you know about how Mr. Hubbard set
3 up the Church of Scientology, could what they do in the same
4 department and division, now called the Office of Special
5 Affairs, be changed from what the Guardian's Office was set
6 up to do?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Same objection.
8 THE COURT: I'm going to sustain it. I'm going
9 to let him answer it simply because I might be
10 wrong. I -- I don't think that he's competent to
11 answer that question.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Go ahead.
14 THE COURT: And I don't mean, sir, to challenge
15 your competency.
16 THE WITNESS: No offense taken.
17 THE COURT: You understand what I'm -- it's a
18 legal term.
19 Go ahead.
20 A I would say policies is as Hubbard wrote it, and
21 there's policy preventing any change of that policy.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q All right.
24 A So changing the cast of characters doesn't
25 necessarily mean that you changed the policy.
73
1 Q And when you went in with Mr. Miscavige to take
2 over the Guardian's Office, the department and the division
3 that the Guardian's Office was in, that was not abolished,
4 was it?
5 A No.
6 Q Now, let's go back to the PC folders.
7 Are the PC folders considered to be a
8 priest-penitent document?
9 A Yes.
10 Q And are the PC folders kept under lock and key?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Is there anything within the policies written by
13 Mr. Hubbard that a public member of the Church of
14 Scientology would know that his or her priest-penitent PC
15 folders can be reviewed by people from, say, the Office of
16 Special Affairs or the Guardian's Office?
17 A No.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Again, I -- excuse me. I object
19 to the part of the question that has to do with the
20 Office of Special Affairs.
21 THE COURT: Sustained.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Guardian's Office.
24 A No. The policy states, and PCs are assured, that
25 whatever they tell the auditor is kept confidential.
74
1 Q While you were a member of the Church of
2 Scientology, are you aware of any instances where someone's
3 PC folder material was removed and destroyed?
4 A Oh, yeah. Sure.
5 Q Under what circumstances?
6 THE COURT: All right. I can hear you clear up
7 here. You're going to --
8 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I just said. I'm
9 asking for some quiet.
10 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
11 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I was --
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Go ahead, Mr. Franks.
15 A Do I know of any examples where PC folders were
16 destroyed?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Yes.
19 Q Under what circumstances?
20 A The information was considered to be too hot
21 for -- somebody might have looked into these folders and get
22 information that they shouldn't have regarding -- it might
23 put the church in bad position, for example.
24 Q Well, what are you talking about? I mean, who can
25 look in a PC folder, that would put the church in a bad
75
1 position? Certainly not an auditor or a case supervisor.
2 What are you talking about?
3 A Well, we spent thousands of hours on the ship
4 redacting folders, PC folders that would compromise Hubbard,
5 for example, where people had seen Hubbard do something and
6 it got into the PC folder, just in case the PC folder should
7 fall into the wrong hands. I mean, that would be an example
8 that I would know of.
9 Q All right. And would taking something out of a
10 member's PC folder and destroying it be a violation of the
11 written policy?
12 A Yes.
13 Q Does that mean that just because it's in writing
14 by Mr. Hubbard, as this is what the policy is, does that
15 mean sometimes it's not followed?
16 A Yes. I guess this would fall under the greatest
17 good for the greatest number of dynamics. This is something
18 like the catch-22. You know, you always have the greatest
19 good for the greatest number. So like if the church were
20 considered to be in danger, you could -- on that basis and
21 that context, you could do anything, such as editing a PC
22 folder or destroying it.
23 Q Is there any time that, according to Mr. Hubbard's
24 policies, where PC folder material could be used to question
25 the person whose PC folder it is at a deposition, and make
76
1 it public?
2 A Sure.
3 Q And how so? Under what circumstance?
4 A A guy who was considered to be an enemy of the
5 church.
6 Many times, on board the ship, Hubbard would
7 have -- I mean, he sent me instructions to go through the PC
8 folder, list all the -- in Scientology parlance, list all
9 the crimes, being anything that can be used on the PC, such
10 as if he smoked pot or whatever, and list those out and --
11 and use those or give them to an attorney. I mean, that
12 was --
13 Q Did --
14 A -- pretty --
15 Q Pardon me?
16 A I was just saying that's pretty common practice,
17 or was back then.
18 Q Okay.
19 THE COURT: As somebody who's not really very
20 familiar with auditing procedures, I can only assume
21 then that in the auditing -- in the auditing
22 process, some of these things that we -- were
23 crimes, in church parlance -- not necessarily
24 secular --
25 THE WITNESS: Right.
77
1 THE COURT: -- I take it that those type of
2 things are things that are discussed in an auditing
3 session?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes.
5 THE COURT: And therefore, they're -- well, I
6 guess I know enough about auditing that the idea is
7 to -- if you've committed some improper act, is to
8 rid yourself of that if it's holding you back. So
9 that would be -- you would discuss it, it would be
10 written in the folder --
11 Is that what you're talking about?
12 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
13 THE COURT: And then you were instructed to
14 list those things and give them to a lawyer?
15 THE WITNESS: Yes.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, can we just date
17 what he's talking about; what year?
18 THE WITNESS: Sure. Up until when I left in
19 '81, that was -- that was common practice. I mean,
20 that was done on my PC folder so --
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Where was it done on your PC folder? What
23 circumstance?
24 A Well, towards the end there, in December of '81.
25 I guess they didn't know what to do with me. I was having
78
1 some pretty major disagreements with Miscavige. And so my
2 folders were being rifled through to find crimes. In fact,
3 you know, I made a joke, "Well, why don't you just tab them
4 for easy reference?"
5 I guess you had to have been there.
6 Q Okay. And did they use your confidential PC
7 folder, information in there, what they call crimes, just to
8 you, or did they publish it or give it to somebody else that
9 wasn't supposed to see it?
10 A Oh, yeah. I would be being told this by -- "Well,
11 what about such and such and such and such? You did such
12 and such." I mean, people who shouldn't have known were
13 telling me those types of things.
14 Q All right. Now, what comprises a typical
15 Scientology course?
16 THE COURT: Is this relevant?
17 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q In other words, what's in a course pack?
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, could we possibly be more
21 specific? I mean, there's hundreds, thousands of
22 Scientology --
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Well, any course. What's in a course pack?
25 A Well, you have typical -- everything is on the
79
1 check sheet, okay? And you'll have a pack with materials
2 that are covered in that check sheet. Check sheet takes you
3 through step by step.
4 You'll have a theory where you'll have basic
5 Scientology policies, like Keeping Scientology Working.
6 This policy here is always -- it has to be included in every
7 course. Then you'll have the theory. Then you'll have the
8 practical. Practical would be like of clay tables, getting
9 you to demonstrate these concepts that have been introduced
10 in the various bulletins and policy letters.
11 And then if it were an auditing course, you would
12 probably -- as the last part of the course, you would have
13 to audit a preclear on these different -- whatever the topic
14 is of that particular course, and show that your proficiency
15 in -- to the auditor.
16 Q What is a routing form?
17 A Routing form is a device used in Scientology to
18 make sure -- it starts, usually, with the receptionist. And
19 it's to make sure that you see all the people in the order
20 that you -- you need to see the people. So it would be,
21 like, the reg -- the receptionist; then to the registrar,
22 where you would sign up and pay your -- your fee. And then
23 perhaps the Ethics officer, to make sure that you're not --
24 you don't have any outstanding ethics problems, like you're
25 not Type III or -- then if you're going on a course to the
80
1 course -- to the director of training and then -- who would
2 maybe do a quick interview. And then to the course
3 supervisor.
4 And the routing form would stay with the course
5 supervisor until you finish the course.
6 And then you would do the last part of the routing
7 form, which would be to qual- -- qualifications division.
8 You know, they would check you out and make sure you had
9 completed the course. And then to the examiner, to make
10 sure that everything -- you were happy. And then to the --
11 to write a success story.
12 And -- and then you would be routed back to the
13 registrar to put you on to your next course of action.
14 Q Is there any service or action in Scientology that
15 is not governed by a routing form?
16 A No. Not for a paying PC or student.
17 Q In other words, can a staff member just wander
18 around and choose what he or she is going to do for the day?
19 A Can you say that again?
20 Q Could a -- well, could a staff member, as an
21 example -- and then we'll go to public.
22 But could a staff member just wander around the
23 base or the org and decide what he or she is going to do for
24 the day?
25 A No.
81
1 Q They would -- the staff would also have a routing
2 form on what they had to do?
3 A No. They call it particle flow. You know,
4 through an organization -- there's a policy letter on it.
5 And it's -- you're supposed -- everything is -- it's so that
6 you can control all the people, all the -- what they call
7 particles flowing through your organization so there isn't
8 any random, this -- everything is very under tight control
9 and orderly.
10 Q What about a public member? Could a public member
11 go into, say, the Church of Scientology Flag Service
12 Organization here in Clearwater and just wander around and
13 drop in on an auditor for auditing?
14 MR. WEINBERG: I object, only because this is
15 2002. If you're asking back in 1981, some
16 particular org that he was in --
17 Are you --
18 THE COURT: Is your objection one of
19 competence?
20 MR. WEINBERG: My objection is relevance. What
21 does this have to do with --
22 THE COURT: I don't know. He keeps --
23 What does have it to do with it? I mean, you
24 ought to be talking about things like introspection
25 rundown; you ought to be talking about things
82
1 like --
2 MR. DANDAR: We're -- just --
3 THE COURT: -- Mr. Miscavige --
4 MR. DANDAR: -- two --
5 THE COURT: -- and -- and --
6 Those are the issues here.
7 MR. DANDAR: I think I have two more questions.
8 Then we're getting into more focus. But this is
9 like a predicate.
10 THE COURT: Would you know today what -- what
11 somebody could do at -- at the Flag up in
12 Clearwater?
13 THE WITNESS: No.
14 THE COURT: So he's not competent to answer
15 that question. That's sustained.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Well, do you know what they could do at Flag in
18 Clearwater if they're following policy written by
19 Mr. Hubbard that can't be changed?
20 A Yes.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
22 THE COURT: Overruled.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q And why is that? Why would you know, since you
25 were chairman of the board and ED Int, and left in December
83
1 of '81, what they're doing in Clearwater in 2002? Or in
2 1985, I should say.
3 A The policy can't be changed. I mean, that's the
4 cornerstone of the church.
5 THE COURT: I guess my question is -- is it's
6 hard for me to understand. I am not a public member
7 of Scientology, but if I were --
8 I don't quite understand his question; I don't
9 understand your answer.
10 In other words, you're not suggesting, are you,
11 that I couldn't go to the place and walk in and sign
12 up for a course or walk in and read some literature
13 or things like this? I mean, if I were a public
14 member of Scientology, could I not go to this place
15 that they have in Clearwater and go in and --
16 THE WITNESS: Just sort of hang out, you mean?
17 THE COURT: Not necessarily to hang out. But I
18 want to take a look at some of the courses that I
19 might can take.
20 THE WITNESS: You would be routed to the
21 registrar. The routing form wouldn't start until
22 you decided what the course or auditing you were
23 going to get. But the registrar would guide you to
24 that.
25 As far as being allowed to walk around the
84
1 organization, no, you wouldn't be allowed to do
2 that.
3 THE COURT: Well, I wouldn't be allowed to walk
4 around IBM either.
5 But I mean, I could go to the registrar, and I
6 could say, "I'd like to see what courses you have to
7 offer. I think I want to take a course." And they
8 would give me books or whatever, and I might look
9 through them and see what I want, or something like
10 that?
11 THE WITNESS: That's --
12 THE COURT: See, I don't know what your
13 question is. Are you just suggesting could anybody
14 go into the Ft. Harrison Hotel and just go walking
15 up and down and up and down the aisles and into
16 their private offices?
17 I would know the answer to that. The answer
18 would be no.
19 MR. DANDAR: I'm suggesting that you just
20 couldn't go in, sit in on a course and take a course
21 without going to the registrar, paying, signing up,
22 and that registrar directing you where you had to go
23 for that particular course.
24 THE COURT: Any more than you could at St. Pete
25 Junior College.
85
1 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
2 THE COURT: I mean, that's how I did it when I
3 went to college. I went to the registrar, paid my
4 money --
5 MR. DANDAR: Right.
6 THE COURT: -- signed up for the course. They
7 told me where it was. I had to go to that place. I
8 had to have a little form.
9 MR. DANDAR: Right.
10 THE COURT: I had to turn it in; they took my
11 form. If I didn't have my form, I didn't get in.
12 MR. DANDAR: Right.
13 THE COURT: And I could not, as a member out on
14 the street, walk into a course and sit down.
15 MR. DANDAR: Right.
16 THE COURT: So what's your point?
17 MR. DANDAR: That's my point. It's the same
18 thing.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q What about --
21 THE COURT: That doesn't get me anywhere.
22 MR. DANDAR: All right.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q What about auditing? Could you just walk in off
25 the street as a public member and say, "I'm here for
86
1 auditing," and just go find your auditor?
2 A No.
3 Well, I mean, if you wanted auditing, they'll
4 route you to a registrar. They'd sit you down. They'd sell
5 you a specific -- whatever it is on the -- on the gradation
6 chart; and then take your money and route you to the cashier
7 and on up, until you're at -- with an auditor and then you
8 get your auditing.
9 Q What about a rundown? Can you just walk in and
10 say, "I want to do a rundown"?
11 THE COURT: That doesn't make a whit of sense.
12 What kind of a rundown are you talking about? The
13 kind of rundown involved here for a psychotic
14 person? You think the psychotic person's going to
15 go to the registrar and sign up?
16 MR. DANDAR: Well, that was my next question.
17 THE COURT: Well, that question makes no sense,
18 Mr. Dandar. You can't go sign up for a -- for an
19 introspection rundown. Apparently, presumably,
20 you're psychotic.
21 MR. DANDAR: Let me --
22 THE COURT: I mean --
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Other than a psychotic rundown -- something to do
25 with psychotic people, a person that's not psychotic, can
87
1 that person -- does that person have to do it through the
2 same routing procedure to sign up for a rundown?
3 A Well, even if you were psychotic, they would route
4 you. And you would end up at the Ethics officer on this
5 routing form, and the Ethics officer and the CS maybe would
6 get together and say -- they'd put you on a program to get a
7 lot of rest and relaxation and -- and destimulate, perhaps.
8 That's -- so that you could get auditing. And this -- in
9 order to get the rundown, as you say.
10 Q Well, could a -- someone who's psychotic -- I
11 mean, have you seen people who are psychotic in your
12 experience at Scientology, who, all by themselves, walked in
13 and said, "I need -- I need help," or, "I need a rundown?"
14 A Sure.
15 Q Oh, okay. And they first go to where? The Ethics
16 officer?
17 A Well, they're going to end up -- the registrar
18 will probably sign them up and take their money. Then
19 they'll be routed to the Ethics officer. And the Ethics
20 officer would say, "Well, before you can start your auditing
21 program, you're going to have to destimulate."
22 Q And that -- and what does destimulate mean?
23 A Get a lot of rest and relaxation, calm down, get
24 fed -- they would put them on a specific program to
25 accomplish that in order -- in order -- this might be like
88
1 the first step before they can start the auditing.
2 Q And that's -- does that rest and relaxation and
3 eating and drinking have to do with the physical body --
4 A Yes.
5 Q -- make sure there was -- is that like a
6 prerequisite for auditing; make sure you've had enough sleep
7 and well-nourished?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Now, in your experience in Scientology, is there
10 any activity that a Sea Org member can perform without it
11 being ordered or delegated by his or her senior?
12 A I'm not sure what you're asking.
13 Q Well, could a Sea Org member, for instance, help
14 and watch somebody, and feed them and make sure they sleep,
15 who's psychotic, without the -- their senior telling them to
16 do that?
17 A No.
18 Q Let's go to this -- you mentioned something before
19 called a PR flap. Is that something Mr. Hubbard wrote
20 about?
21 A Oh, yeah. Many times.
22 Q What is a PR flap, in the parlance of Scientology?
23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, is there some policy that
24 we can refer to, your Honor, or is this just a
25 general --
89
1 THE COURT: I don't know.
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- description?
3 MR. DANDAR: He said there are many, so I -- I
4 mean, I just want -- it's just a general statement.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
6 THE COURT: I'll just let him see where he's
7 going here.
8 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q What is a PR flap?
11 A Well, there's really a lot of policy on it. He
12 wrote a whole series of policy letters called PR series,
13 public relations series. They're all based on how to handle
14 PR flaps. And essentially what Hubbard says is that every
15 PR flap, in his experience, have been created by someone who
16 is either a suppressive person or someone who's connected to
17 a suppressive person.
18 Q And in the Church of Scientology, who handles PR
19 flaps?
20 A Guardian's Office.
21 Q Okay. Now, for the -- for the Church of
22 Scientology, are you aware of the importance of the -- of
23 the Church of Scientology Flag Land Base here in Clearwater?
24 A Yes.
25 Q And how is that? I mean what is the importance of
90
1 this particular organization?
2 A Well, I -- Hubbard, when we came ashore and set up
3 in Clearwater, he decided the gimmick was going to be this
4 was going to the mecca of technical perfection. This was
5 going to be the shining example of Scientology working. And
6 it was from that concept that -- at least up until when I
7 left, that was the importance of the Flag Land Base. It was
8 to be the shining example that Scientology works.
9 Q You mean more so than the L.A. org, or what's in
10 London or anywhere else?
11 A Yes. It was advertised that if you -- if you
12 couldn't get your case handled, you could at Flag, at the
13 Flag Land Base.
14 Q Did they have a -- a saying or a -- for what Flag
15 Land Base was?
16 A Mecca of technical perfection.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Would it be possible, your
18 Honor, for Mr. Franks to get a little closer to the
19 microphone?
20 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I don't want to make you
22 uncomfortable, but your voice trails off.
23 THE WITNESS: All right.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Now, you said -- you mentioned the phrase
91
1 technical perfection. What do you mean by that?
2 A Well, it goes back to this Keeping Scientology
3 Working. That there are no errors in Scientology except
4 where the technology has not been applied correctly. So if
5 you have something that isn't working, like in -- like with
6 a PC; PC's not doing well --
7 THE COURT: Maybe you could bring this to, I
8 think, where it is you want to go. Why don't you
9 talk about what's at issue in this case?
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Is the tech considered always perfect?
12 A Yes. It's invariably misapplication of that
13 technology.
14 Q What is meant by the phrase that "you have no case
15 gain"?
16 A "No case gain" refers to you're not making
17 progress on the gradation chart.
18 Q So even though you might be taking a course or you
19 might have auditing, if it's not done correctly, you have no
20 case gain?
21 A Probably.
22 Q And when someone doesn't have good results --
23 THE COURT: Listen, I just can't stand it any
24 longer. This is a very specific hearing. This is
25 not a trial. If this man were qualified for a trial
92
1 and he were going to be, somehow or another, telling
2 a jury a lot of background information, I'd let you
3 go on and on. That is not what this is about. This
4 is about whether or not you perpetrated a fraud on
5 the court when you alleged in the complaint what you
6 alleged.
7 So if this man has something to offer about
8 that, get to it. If he doesn't, then we'll -- we'll
9 wait until the trial, if there's a trial, and see
10 what it is he can assist the jury with --
11 MR. DANDAR: All right.
12 THE COURT: I mean, I really haven't heard one
13 thing that I haven't heard before thus far, from
14 this man. I mean, I've heard all this.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q What does the -- what does the -- the writings of
17 Mr. Hubbard and the Church of Scientology tell you if
18 someone, a public member, for instance, complains that they
19 didn't get good results?
20 A Well, immediately, what you're trained to do is to
21 grab a PC folder and do what they call a folder error
22 summary, and find out what the mistakes were in the
23 application of the technology.
24 Q Were you -- when you were in Scientology with the
25 Guardian's Office, did the Guardian's Office have any
93
1 control over other organizations?
2 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. I think he just said
3 he was with the Guardian's Office, and I don't think
4 Mr. Franks said he was with the Guardian's office.
5 THE COURT: That's true.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q When you were in Scientology, and the Guardian's
8 Office was in existence, did the Guardian's Office have
9 control over other organizations?
10 A In the area of intelligence, public relations and
11 legal, absolute control.
12 Q So if a Boston org, as you mentioned before, had a
13 PR flap --
14 THE COURT: I don't want to hear it. I don't
15 want to hear about what the Boston org had or
16 whatever. If it has something to do with this case,
17 let's talk about that org and this org. I don't
18 know about Boston org here.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q All right. Who handles -- within your experience,
21 who handles PR flaps?
22 A The Guardian's Office.
23 Q Now, you're familiar with the organization board
24 of Scientology, correct?
25 A Yes.
94
1 Q And the organization board that I have with me is
2 in the executive division, volume 7 book, published in --
3 published in 1991.
4 MR. DANDAR: If I may approach.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, but
6 how -- how possibly can he identify an org chart,
7 particularly since the church was reorganized after
8 he left, from 1991?
9 THE COURT: I suppose he can look at it and see
10 if, in 1991, it's the same as it was when he was
11 there.
12 MR. WEINBERG: But --
13 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know. I don't
14 know. We'll see what he says.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. I know it wasn't. It's
16 been totally reorganized.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Now, let me show you maybe a more handy, condensed
19 version.
20 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just be told what that
21 is? Is that the corporate structure or is that
22 something else? I mean, that's what I -- I don't
23 know.
24 THE COURT: I don't know.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
95
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Do you know what that is, Mr. Franks?
3 A Yeah. That's the organizational chart.
4 THE COURT: Of what?
5 THE WITNESS: Of the Church of Scientology.
6 THE COURT: Of the corporate structure? I
7 mean, he's trying to ask you --
8 THE WITNESS: No. It's not --
9 THE COURT: Come up here and look at it.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 (A discussion was held off the record.)
12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. This is not the corporate
13 organization.
14 THE WITNESS: That's right.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. This is a --
16 If I could ask a question --
17 This is -- this is an org chart within each
18 particular organization, regardless of the
19 particular structure.
20 THE WITNESS: That's right. That's correct.
21 BY MR. DANDAR:
22 Q Mr. Franks, do you know who would be senior to the
23 senior case supervisor?
24 A In -- in an individual org?
25 Q Yes.
96
1 A That would be senior CS Int.
2 Q And senior CS Int -- "Int" means international?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And that person is located where?
5 A I don't really know now.
6 Q Okay. So it doesn't matter where the person's
7 located; it matters what his post is, his position is.
8 A That's correct.
9 Q All right. Now, let's go back and talk about the
10 Sea Org --
11 THE COURT: Okay. We're going to take a break.
12 It's 10:30. We've been at it for about an hour and
13 a half. So we'll be in recess for 15 minutes.
14 Sir, while you're on the witness stand, you can
15 talk about other things, but you can't talk about
16 your testimony, even with the lawyer who put you on.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 THE COURT: So just during the time you're on
19 the stand.
20 THE WITNESS: Got you. Thanks.
21 THE COURT: And of course, that goes for the
22 lawyers on both sides.
23 THE WITNESS: All right.
24 THE COURT: You can't talk to anybody about
25 your testimony while you're testifying.
97
1 THE WITNESS: All right.
2 (A recess was taken at 10:31 a.m.)
3 THE COURT: You may continue.
4 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Mr. Franks, you mentioned before that the
7 Guardian's Office was Department 20. And you and
8 Mr. Miscavige went in there and disbanded the Guardian's
9 Office? Is that the right word?
10 A We didn't disband it. We just took -- no, we
11 didn't disband it. We just removed Mary Sue, Jane Kember --
12 you know, these --
13 Q Right.
14 A -- principal parties.
15 Q And then were the people in the Guardian's Office
16 members of the Sea Org at that time, before you went in
17 there with Mr. Miscavige?
18 A No, sir.
19 Q So you say they became Sea Org members?
20 A Well, yeah. We started a program where they were
21 required to join the Sea Org. And if they didn't, their
22 services were no longer required.
23 Q Would that be known as routing them out to the Sea
24 Org or --
25 A Routing them out from -- yeah. Routing them
98
1 out -- off of staff.
2 Q And what's the purpose of them becoming Sea Org
3 members?
4 A I guess a matter of devotion. And also a matter
5 of control. The Sea Org now had control over the Guardian's
6 Office.
7 Q And did the Department 20 stay in existence up
8 until the time that you left?
9 A Oh, yes.
10 Q Now, when you were in Scientology, was there a
11 head of the Sea Org?
12 A Yes.
13 Q And who was it?
14 A Hubbard. He was referred to as the commodore.
15 Q Was there any organization in the Church of
16 Scientology that did not have a head?
17 A No. That would have been off policy.
18 Q Is there anyone higher than the head of the Sea
19 Org, within the entire organization of the Church of
20 Scientology?
21 A No.
22 Q Who is the head of all the various Scientology
23 organization worldwide?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Again, we're talking about
25 before December of 1981?
99
1 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
2 A Well, I was, up until my departure.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Until when?
5 A When I departed.
6 Q Okay. Now, have you stayed abreast in any manner
7 of the developments of the Church of Scientology after you
8 left?
9 A No, not really.
10 Q Okay. For instance, do you know if there's a head
11 of the Sea Organization in 1995?
12 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. He just
13 said that he hadn't stayed abreast.
14 THE COURT: Sustained.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q Okay. Does the Sea Organization, when you were in
17 Scientology, in -- have power over regular staff?
18 A Yes.
19 Q And is that per Mr. Hubbard's policies?
20 A Yes. That's how he set up the Sea Org, is that
21 they could intervene anytime, and they had the authority to
22 do that when something wasn't going well.
23 Q Where does the Flag Service Organization rank
24 among the other Scientology organizations?
25 MR. WEINBERG: So it's clear, we're --
100
1 THE COURT: I don't need you to jump up
2 every --
3 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
4 THE COURT: -- time, please.
5 Move.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q Back when you were in Scientology.
8 A It was the top organization.
9 Q And do -- when you were in Scientology -- all my
10 questions are when you were in Scientology -- does -- does
11 everyone follow the org board?
12 A Yes. You have to.
13 Q And why is that?
14 A Hubbard was keen on saying, as an example, that if
15 the function was not on the org board, then get rid of it.
16 So consequently everything that is done in the church has to
17 be on the organizational board.
18 Q Is there any instance where a staff or a Sea Org
19 member does not have a senior?
20 A No.
21 Q Regardless of the rank of the Sea Org member, is
22 there any time that, within your experience, the Sea Org
23 member would not have a senior?
24 A No.
25 Q Now, you mentioned -- mentioned something before,
101
1 something about when you sign up to do a course, and you
2 normally -- you get a routing form, and you finish your
3 course; you mentioned something about a success story.
4 THE COURT: I've already heard all I need to
5 hear about that. Didn't I just hear about that from
6 Teresa Summers?
7 MR. DANDAR: The only reason I'm asking that is
8 this is a person who is not connected to any of
9 those people. And if it matters to the court -- if
10 it matters to the court, I'd have him say it and --
11 THE COURT: All right. Just go ahead. Just
12 understand that I've heard this before.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q What is a success story?
15 A Success story is, whenever you complete an
16 auditing or a course in training --
17 THE COURT: You know, this -- honestly, this
18 might have something to do if this were a trial and
19 whether or not Lisa McPherson wanted to leave the
20 Church of Scientology, or didn't. I don't know what
21 it has to do with this hearing.
22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right.
23 THE COURT: And net accumulations and that kind
24 of stuff. I mean -- but it just doesn't have
25 anything to do with this.
102
1 MR. DANDAR: I won't ask him about net
2 accumulation.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Mr. Franks, have you ever heard, in Scientology,
6 the term "acceptable truce"?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Can you explain that, please?
9 A Well, I had a long conversation with Hubbard about
10 this. That was the first time I ever heard it in 1970, in
11 his office. And he was -- the general drift was that
12 Hubbard felt that Scientology was here to save the planet.
13 And therefore, the means justify the ends. If you had to --
14 there was no sense in telling the truth to people who could
15 not -- not to be cute, but couldn't handle the truth.
16 Because --
17 In other words, he -- he would -- one specific
18 thing he would say would be -- reporters, why tell them the
19 truth when indeed they're not Scientologists, so they --
20 they're not qualified and capable of seeing the truth? So
21 tell them something that they can accept.
22 Q Does that mean it can or cannot be the truth?
23 A Right.
24 Q Does that apply to anyone else other than
25 reporters?
103
1 A Absolutely.
2 Q Would it apply to testifying in court?
3 A Yes.
4 Because his opinion would be that the WOG -- that
5 would be another Scientology word -- non-Scientologists
6 courts can't really mete out justice. The only true justice
7 is in Scientology ethics and how Scientology applies the
8 ethics per the policies.
9 So you're not -- you've got to take everything
10 else with a grain of salt in a non-Scientologist
11 environment.
12 Q And when you were in Scientology, do you know if
13 those thoughts were conveyed to staff members of the Church
14 of Scientology?
15 A Oh, yeah.
16 Well, this conversation that I had with him was --
17 preceded him writing a series of policy letters that -- I
18 believe they were in the PR series. And he also wrote a
19 couple of --
20 THE COURT: PRS series is what?
21 THE WITNESS: PR series.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 THE WITNESS: Public relations series.
24 A And he also wrote a couple of Guardian orders, I
25 believe, explaining this. And I believe this is around the
104
1 turn -- turn of the year. Around 1970, December.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Okay. Can you tell us about a phrase in the
4 Church of Scientology writings of Mr. Hubbard that
5 "agreement equals reality"?
6 A Agreement equals reality.
7 Well, as I recall -- the definition of reality in
8 Scientology is what we agree upon. For example, we agree
9 that we're all sitting in a room here, so that's reality.
10 But reality can be a very subjective thing. In other words,
11 if I disagreed that we were sitting in a room here, then
12 it's not necessarily true for me, is it? So --
13 Q Okay. Now, have you taken the PTS/SP course?
14 A Probably several times now.
15 Q And --
16 THE COURT: When you say probably several
17 times, does that mean yes, you definitely have taken
18 it, and you --
19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: -- have taken it more than once?
21 THE WITNESS: I've taken it two or three times.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q All right. Let me hand you my copy. And it's
25 from -- publication date 1989, so that would be after you
105
1 left.
2 But I want you to just look at what I have and let
3 me know if any of this looks familiar to you back in the
4 '70s and '80s -- or '70s -- yeah. Late '60s, all of the
5 '70s.
6 A Yes. It looks like the course has been added to a
7 lot, but it's about what I took, yeah.
8 Q Okay. And do you know if Mr. Hubbard defined the
9 word "psychotic" in this course, in his policies?
10 A Yes.
11 Q Are you able to turn to that?
12 I may -- if I can to speed things along, do you
13 remember how he defined "psychotic"?
14 A I remember a lot of different definitions.
15 Q Okay.
16 A But primarily it's like a suppressive person can
17 be a psychotic. It's someone who's committed so many crimes
18 against humanity that it consumes then. I guess Adolf
19 Hitler could be considered a psychotic under that
20 definition.
21 A psychotic is also someone who is connected to an
22 SP -- a suppressive person -- and is just driven crazy by
23 that connection.
24 See, he was very specific. Like, 2 percent of the
25 population were considered to be suppressive, psychotic.
106
1 And the other 98 percent of the people, the
2 non-Scientologists, were what he referred to as PTS, meaning
3 potential trouble source. But they were at -- the effect of
4 this small minority was this 2 percent.
5 Q Okay.
6 A Evil people.
7 Q Did Mr. Hubbard write that he could cure
8 psychotics?
9 A I believe Hubbard's attitude was that he could if
10 he wanted to, but why waste the time? Because it was a
11 minority of the people, and that they really didn't deserve
12 salvation.
13 Q Have you ever experienced, your personal
14 experience as a member of the Church of Scientology, someone
15 who went psychotic?
16 A Sure. Yes.
17 Q What happened to those people in your experience,
18 from personal experience, as a Scientologist, that went
19 psychotic?
20 A Well, there's quite a few of them.
21 But for example, on Flag -- on the ship, when we
22 were overseas, particularly, Hubbard would demand that they
23 be taken off the ship.
24 Q Why?
25 A He didn't want any PR flaps like in Morocco. I
107
1 mean, that was a very touchy situation. And I -- actually,
2 I can -- I'm thinking now of a few people he had just
3 escorted back home.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Could we, your honor, date this
5 in time?
6 THE COURT: All right. Can you tell us when
7 this was?
8 THE WITNESS: Oh, I'm sorry.
9 Well, '71, '72, '73, '74 and '75. That would
10 be on the ship.
11 THE COURT: When you say back home, would this
12 be back home --
13 THE WITNESS: Back to the States.
14 THE COURT: -- to another -- to their home,
15 like where their family was, or to their home
16 like -- I don't know if I'm using the right word --
17 where their org was?
18 THE WITNESS: No. Typically to their home,
19 where they live, where their family was.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Taken out of the church?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Taken to somebody who could
22 care for them.
23 THE COURT: Okay.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Okay. Well, I just --
108
1 Do you know if Mr. Hubbard conveyed his thoughts
2 about taking members who became psychotic off a base and
3 away from the base, in writing?
4 A I believe -- well, yes. There were several
5 different policy letters that absolutely, you know, made it
6 mandatory that you were to offload these people -- offload
7 being the term -- get rid of them, not allow them to receive
8 auditing, not allow them to receive training --
9 Q Okay.
10 A -- until -- until they destimulated.
11 They might be given a program for rest and
12 relaxation, but no doctors. You know, a lot of vitamins, a
13 lot of food, a lot of rest.
14 Q Let me show you Exhibit --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Could we possibly see these
16 before --
17 MR. DANDAR: Well, I don't -- it's my only
18 copy. I wanted to speed it up.
19 But can I take -- I can make a copy --
20 THE COURT: Just let them look at it. Maybe
21 they won't have to do anything but look at it.
22 This Number 94, you never moved it into
23 evidence. Did you mean to?
24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I'd like to move that into
25 evidence.
109
1 THE COURT: Any objection?
2 MR. WEINBERG: No. It was a 1992 policy that
3 we turned over in discovery. It's not something
4 that Mr. Franks would have --
5 THE COURT: All right. Number 94, then, will
6 be accepted into evidence.
7 Is this my copy? I guess it was.
8 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
9 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, I can't see down there
10 so I'm going to try and put the stuff up here. If
11 it falls over on you, I'm sorry.
12 THE CLERK: Okay.
13 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. This is a 1965 policy.
14 MR. WEINBERG: What do you mean, you're sorry?
15 MR. DANDAR: Well, you said it was 1992.
16 MR. WEINBERG: The one you just handed me said
17 "1992" on it.
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm talking about the clerk's --
19 what I just moved into evidence.
20 MR. WEINBERG: It had "1992" on it.
21 Is there something else you want to show me?
22 MR. DANDAR: This.
23 Let me see your copy.
24 THE COURT: I didn't see what he just handed
25 you. I'm talking about something a long time ago
110
1 that he put up here.
2 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know about that. But
3 the one he just moved into evidence was a July, 1992
4 policy.
5 THE WITNESS: Is this it?
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I kept it.
8 MR. WEINBERG: That one, I haven't seen.
9 THE COURT: Yes, you did.
10 MR. DANDAR: This is Exhibit --
11 THE COURT: It's a 1965 policy. That's what he
12 just moved into evidence.
13 MR. WEINBERG: No.
14 THE COURT: Yes, it is.
15 MR. WEINBERG: This is what you just moved into
16 evidence?
17 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, I had just the
20 first page.
21 THE COURT: That's all there is.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Could I just take it --
23 MR. DANDAR: You have it in your hand, don't
24 you? It's the same thing.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. What was the other one
111
1 you just showed me?
2 MR. DANDAR: That's the court's copy.
3 THE COURT: No. I just -- I just gave her my
4 copy. Did he take it?
5 THE CLERK: That's your copy, Judge.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you showed me something
7 that had "1992" on it --
8 MR. DANDAR: Maybe it's this --
9 MR. WEINBERG: -- and they put an exhibit tag
10 on it. And I thought that's what the judge was
11 addressing me, that I was not objecting to.
12 THE COURT: No. I had this other piece of
13 paper up here that he hadn't done anything with.
14 MR. DANDAR: That's this one.
15 THE COURT: Right.
16 MR. DANDAR: July, '92?
17 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I thought that was the
18 one --
19 THE COURT: No.
20 MR. WEINBERG: -- this one I just looked at.
21 Okay.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Exhibit 95, on the top it says, "Base Flag Order
24 458," and then on the right-hand side, "July 7, 1992." And
25 then at the -- below, it says, "L. Ron Hubbard."
112
1 Didn't Mr. Hubbard die in 1986, Mr. Franks?
2 A So I've heard.
3 Q And if he died in 1986, do you know why there --
4 do you have any understanding why there would be a 1992 date
5 on that Flag base order?
6 A Well, I -- I guess it's just reissued.
7 I -- I recognize this as something he wrote,
8 though.
9 Q When?
10 A Early '70s. I think -- I believe that -- no, I --
11 I -- I remember this as -- he put this in the Orders of the
12 Day on -- on the ship. And that's when there was a Flag on
13 the ship. That's before we moved ashore.
14 Q To Clearwater.
15 A Yes.
16 Q So would the orders on ship apply to the -- as far
17 as you know, apply to the Flag Land Base in Clearwater?
18 A Yes. Because the Land Base became what the ship
19 was: The mecca for technical perfection.
20 Q Okay.
21 THE COURT: Did you want to enter that into
22 evidence?
23 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to move that into
24 evidence. Sorry.
25 THE COURT: I haven't seen it.
113
1 MR. DANDAR: I need to make copies.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Any objection?
3 I guess this is --
4 MR. WEINBERG: This is what I made my speech
5 about. This is what we turned over --
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. WEINBERG: -- in the discovery. So I
8 wasn't just babbling.
9 THE COURT: I understand.
10 So it'll be accepted.
11 MR. DANDAR: Should we wait until I copy it
12 or --
13 THE COURT: How many copies are you making?
14 MR. DANDAR: Three.
15 THE COURT: You can go ahead. That won't
16 bother me.
17 MR. DANDAR: All right.
18 THE COURT: As long as I know it's just three
19 copies and it's not going to run for 30 minutes.
20 MR. DANDAR: And it's single-page.
21 THE COURT: And it's single-page. Right.
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q Now, Mr. Franks --
24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. I just made a mistake.
25 I don't know why I did that. But --
114
1 There. 95.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q Would someone who is psychotic be considered a PR
5 flap?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Why is that?
8 A Well, the context of this thing that -- this
9 publication you just showed me, was that -- we were in
10 Morocco at the time. And because all the L10, 11, 12 --
11 which were the higher levels at that time -- I'm sure they
12 have something new now, but this would be -- have been in
13 '71, I believe.
14 And we were in Morocco, and things were very
15 touchy with the government. And a PC or a preclear, who had
16 paid a lot of money to come to Flag to get this auditing,
17 became psychotic. And there was a lot of concern that there
18 was going to be a public relations flap because of it. This
19 person was very loud and very violent. And there were a
20 number of these people who came to Flag.
21 And Hubbard didn't want this. I mean, the ship
22 was to be sort of a safe haven for him, and he didn't want
23 crazy people coming and creating flaps with the country we
24 might be in at that time, be it Portugal or Morocco.
25 So that -- that was the context.
115
1 And at -- when we moved here in '75 and set up
2 shop in Clearwater, the same policy was applied.
3 Q So that policy being to do what with people who
4 are psychotic?
5 A Well, because Flag was advertising that if you
6 can't get your case handled elsewhere, come to Flag. So
7 they would tend to get the people who were really in rough
8 shape. And so that's why they would get more than their
9 share of people who had -- had gone psychotic.
10 Q And what -- what would they do at Flag here in
11 Clearwater, when you were a member, with people who were
12 psychotic?
13 A Well, you had this policy of, get rid of them.
14 But there was always -- there was always this tension
15 around, because you wanted the money -- that was the one
16 thing -- and you wanted the -- the stats of the preclear in
17 the shop. You wanted to be able to audit that person. And
18 at the same time, then, you had the GO over here, who was
19 given the job, entrusted with the job of -- of containing PR
20 flaps. So there was always this big tension between the GO
21 and the org just on this one point. And so there wasn't --
22 it wasn't clearly handled.
23 I can remember in '80 -- in 1980, when I, as the
24 senior management exec int, had to come down to Flag Land
25 Base and actually order this person to stop being audited
116
1 and sent back home, with an escort.
2 Q And what was your position at that time?
3 A Senior management exec int. And that was the
4 forerunner of executive int.
5 Q Were you the highest person under Hubbard at that
6 time?
7 A No. At that time, there was the watchdog
8 committee above me.
9 Q But at that time, when you came in here to handle
10 this, you were the -- am I saying this right -- you were the
11 most senior person, singular person, under Hubbard?
12 A Involved in management, yes. The watchdog
13 committee, I guess, would have been sort of an ad hoc
14 committee over here, and they were -- you know, I would
15 report to them. So in that respect I worked with them.
16 Q And this was in 1980.
17 A 1980, yes.
18 Q And why is --
19 Were you part of Flag here in Clearwater?
20 A I was -- Flag was -- there were different parts to
21 Flag. There was the Flag Land Base, which delivered
22 auditing and training to public paying PCs and students, and
23 then there was management, who was managing the world.
24 So --
25 Q So --
117
1 A -- sort of a worldwide management, administrative.
2 Q So why would you, as the executive of int,
3 international, out there in California, fly into Clearwater
4 and get involved with a psychotic person who was in
5 Clearwater?
6 A Well, first of all, I was in Clearwater. I don't
7 know where management is these days, but management at that
8 time was here in Clearwater; just in a different building.
9 Q Okay.
10 A Why? Because there was nothing more important
11 than Flag Land Base, and this had the potential of really
12 blowing up.
13 Q So what did you do with this psychotic person?
14 A I think in this case we had the auditor put him in
15 a car and drove him back to California, perhaps. I don't
16 remember exactly where. It was to the person's home.
17 Q And what happened to that person?
18 A Don't -- I -- in this case, I don't know.
19 Q Okay. You getting involved in a psychotic person
20 at Flag while you were in management, was that pursuant to
21 policy of Mr. Hubbard, or did you just do this -- make it up
22 as you go along?
23 A Well, actually, the policy -- Hubbard policy
24 clearly states that you've got to get -- these people are
25 not to be allowed to be receiving auditing or training.
118
1 Q Why couldn't the people at the Flag Land Base
2 handle it all by themselves?
3 A Well, in this particular case -- and it was always
4 the issue. I mean, you have people were always trying to
5 get their stats up.
6 And as I recall, this person had a lot of money,
7 so there was the pressure to get that. And it conflicted
8 with the policy about Type III psychotics.
9 And that -- that was a continuing unresolved
10 problem Rick Moxon, here, can tell you about. All the
11 similar issues we used to have with the old Washington, D.C.
12 org back in the '70s, where we would try to route these
13 people on and the GO would come down and say, "No, you can't
14 have these people on the lines."
15 Q Now, have you ever heard, in the Church of
16 Scientology, in your years, of the Scientology staff or
17 auditors offering free services to public members of the
18 Church of Scientology?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. I'm sure there's
20 some relevance to this, your Honor? What does this
21 have to do with this hearing?
22 THE COURT: I think I know. Overruled.
23 A No. That -- in fact, there is -- there is policy
24 that states that you're actually betraying your fellow staff
25 member when you give away free services.
119
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q What happens to a staff member or auditor who does
3 give free -- away free services?
4 A Oh, it would be pretty severe. I mean, you'd be
5 sent to Ethics, certainly.
6 Q And what happens if you're sent to Ethics?
7 A Well, you have to write up your overts and
8 withholds.
9 THE COURT: When you use the term "free
10 services," are you speaking now of services such as
11 auditing services?
12 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
13 THE COURT: You wouldn't suspect that if -- I'm
14 going to bring this thing here if I can.
15 Would you think that if somebody were under the
16 care and custody of the Church of Scientology, and
17 the person's -- was basically psychotic, and their
18 funds ran out, that they wouldn't give them water?
19 I mean, is that what you're talking about when you
20 think of free services?
21 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't -- I wouldn't take
22 it to they wouldn't give them -- a person water.
23 THE COURT: Or food or --
24 THE WITNESS: Or food.
25 But they would probably fill them up on water
120
1 and food and send them home.
2 THE COURT: Okay.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q And what if they decided there was no place for
5 the person to go?
6 A That's a -- that's a real problem, you know.
7 Q Do they continue to give them free food and water?
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hypothetical. I
9 mean --
10 THE COURT: Well, I mean -- I think I know
11 where you're going here.
12 Do you have any proof that in this particular
13 case, when Ms. McPherson's money apparently -- I
14 read something about it too -- ran out, that these
15 folks didn't feed her? I mean -- or is this just
16 some -- some idea that, normally, because somebody
17 can't get free auditing, that you're just going to
18 try to get a jury to jump to the fact that the lady
19 was left to starve, because she didn't have money?
20 MR. DANDAR: Well, I mean --
21 THE COURT: Do you believe that? Is that what
22 you're going to try to promote here?
23 MR. DANDAR: Might I ask the witness that?
24 THE COURT: Well, yeah.
25
121
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Mr. Franks, I did talk to you before today, and
3 gave you a synopsis of the Lisa McPherson circumstances that
4 led up to her death, is that right?
5 A Right.
6 Q And you did -- did you have an opinion as to what
7 would happen when the notes of the watcher -- I think
8 Ms. Boykin -- states on December the 2nd, that Lisa
9 McPherson's account is empty; it ran out of money; and she
10 thought maybe her employer would give her money, but we have
11 no notes to say that her employer gave any money at all? Do
12 you have an opinion as to what the staff would then do with
13 her, Lisa McPherson, in the condition that she was in, when
14 her account was empty?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection.
16 THE COURT: Overruled.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Form objection. Competence.
18 THE COURT: Overruled.
19 A Well, yeah. I have an opinion.
20 My opinion is this: I read, I believe, most of
21 the logs. And the people who were attending to her -- and
22 I'm sure these people really cared for her. Obviously, they
23 were really concerned about what was going on. Even the I&R
24 talked about being frantic about Lisa's condition.
25
122
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q I&R meaning --
3 A Inspections and reports.
4 Q That's a person.
5 A Yeah. I can't remember the name of the -- it was
6 a woman. I don't remember her name.
7 Q Heather Hof.
8 A Yeah.
9 And she was only 17 years of age, what was in the
10 notes.
11 But the way an organization works is that if
12 you're not paid, you don't get any priority. So the people
13 up close, they knew what was happening with Lisa, and they
14 were pretty freaked out about it. They seemed to be very
15 upset and alarmed by what was happening.
16 However, the way the organization works, if it
17 can't be counted as a paid statistic, you immediately go
18 into a low priority. In fact, I believe the only person
19 who -- when a person runs out of money in a situation like
20 this, the only policy that I know of is that they're routed
21 to the chaplain, and possibly the chaplain can work out
22 some -- something.
23 But people start being taken off of helping Lisa
24 at the point that she doesn't -- is not being -- is no
25 longer paid just because of the pressure to get your stats
123
1 up. You know, you only have a hundred staff members, and
2 you're going to be putting them on what the org's supposed
3 to be doing, which is getting your stats up. And you have
4 this woman here who runs out of money. Well, it's almost
5 inexorable pressure that is brought to bear to move to
6 where -- what's going to get the stat up. I mean, here's a
7 person who no longer has any money. There's going to be
8 less and less attention being put on her.
9 Q Do you have an opinion as to why -- do you have an
10 opinion as to whether or not that particular -- that could
11 be the reason why Mr. Kartuzinski, the senior CS on -- did
12 not respond, as Heather Hof testified, to her notes that she
13 hand-delivered to his office about the declining physical
14 condition of Lisa McPherson, beginning on December 2nd?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Objection as to the
16 form. It's not a proper hypothetical. It misstates
17 what the facts are. He's not in a position to
18 answer. He's not qualified to answer something like
19 that.
20 THE COURT: I would disagree with that. I
21 think he might be qualified to answer it.
22 I don't know what relevance it has to this
23 hearing. This hearing is to determine whether you
24 have any good-faith basis to have stated, or whether
25 it's a fraud on the court, that David Miscavige
124
1 ordered an end cycle on Lisa McPherson. This is not
2 a negligence -- this would be interesting if we were
3 in a trial and there was a question being put to the
4 jury as to whether or not there was a negligence
5 involved in their care of Lisa McPherson and whether
6 they should have done something different, and all
7 that sort of stuff. That's not what we're here to
8 decide.
9 MR. DANDAR: This -- this does go to it not
10 being negligence. This does go to paragraph 34.
11 THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow it. I don't see
12 how. But go ahead.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Do you remember the question? I don't either.
15 THE COURT: Do you think the fact that she
16 didn't have money is -- is some reason why
17 Mr. Kartuzinski didn't respond and come see her?
18 THE WITNESS: Could have been.
19 The reason is, is just the sheer workload. Any
20 CS -- in this case, Alain Kartuzinski -- has a
21 tremendous workload for paying PCs. They have the
22 priority. And these folders are coming to him in
23 stacks. And here is a woman who's no longer a paid
24 priority. That's going to go to the bottom of the
25 stack.
125
1 THE COURT: So the long and the short of it
2 is -- is you really can't help us out here, because
3 it could have been, but it could not have been. In
4 other words, if wherever the folder was in the
5 stack, they got to that, then he'd go see her.
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: You would have no way of knowing
8 how many folders he had or where she was in the
9 stack or if there were two or 22 or 2002.
10 THE WITNESS: Absolutely.
11 The only thing I'm saying is that, say, this
12 stack is paid and this stack is nonpaid, he has to
13 do the paid first. That's all I'm saying.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 THE WITNESS: So now she's in stack 2 instead
16 of stack 1.
17 BY MR. DANDAR:
18 Q Have you ever had heard the term in Scientology,
19 "dropping the body" or "dropping your body"?
20 A Yeah.
21 Q Under what circumstances?
22 A Well, I never saw a policy letter or a bulletin
23 about that. But I saw certain -- there's another data line
24 which would have been LRH CSs. These are him directing an
25 auditor for a dying preclear.
126
1 Q Directing the auditor to do what?
2 A Well, for example, there was this woman in '78,
3 Yvonne Jentzsch, had brain cancer.
4 Q Who is she, or who was she?
5 A She was -- Yvonne was a captain or a -- I don't
6 know what her rank was. But she was a head of the Celebrity
7 Center in Scientology.
8 Q She was the wife of --
9 A Heber Jentzsch, yes.
10 Q Who was -- who was he? Or who was he?
11 A He was -- I guess he was a spokesman for the
12 church.
13 Q Okay.
14 A And his directions at that time was, "Let her
15 die." And he gave some processes to be run on her that were
16 called objective processes; you know, like -- concerning any
17 considerations she would have about dropping her body.
18 Q Is there -- is there any terminology for that, or
19 names or anything like that?
20 A Dropping a body. Dropping a body.
21 Q Okay. All right.
22 A I mean, that's -- that's how it was viewed, as
23 dropping the body and going and picking up another body.
24 Q Any other examples or other circumstances you
25 recall?
127
1 THE COURT: Before you get off of this example,
2 this is someone, I take it, was in their terminal
3 days as a cancer patient?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. She had brain
5 cancer.
6 THE COURT: She had brain cancer. She wasn't
7 expected to live for a very long time. And it was
8 basically to let her drop the body. But in essence,
9 let her die naturally and not do anything special;
10 to take her to a hospital or something like that.
11 THE WITNESS: Right. Just to -- to do these
12 processes.
13 THE COURT: Like Hospice would do today?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes. More to that, I think.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Any other examples?
18 A Yeah --
19 Examples of what?
20 Q Of people who went through this process or this
21 LRH CS of dropping the body.
22 A Yeah. I remember a fellow also with cancer -- I
23 think this was lung cancer. And Hubbard CSed -- actually,
24 he was -- he had lung cancer. He was dying. He'd never
25 been to a doctor. And he was on the ship at the time.
128
1 And Hubbard sent him home with his auditor. And
2 when they got home, his auditor was supposed to run these
3 processes on this individual -- they were called ruds,
4 rudiments -- about any misgivings he might have about
5 dying --
6 Q Was it --
7 A -- any problem he would have or --
8 THE COURT: These -- were these -- are you --
9 are you talking about the case supervisor, when they
10 would talk about the auditing process, with these
11 notes that you're talking about --
12 THE WITNESS: Yes.
13 THE COURT: -- they put in there?
14 THE WITNESS: Yes.
15 THE COURT: Put these in there as a plan for
16 the auditor to do --
17 THE WITNESS: To do with the --
18 THE COURT: -- with the PC?
19 THE WITNESS: Yes.
20 THE COURT: So all that assumed, I take it,
21 that the person being audited is, number one,
22 capable of being audited, and that these are
23 direct -- and wants -- I guess you'd have to want to
24 be audited. So -- so this is a direction from the
25 case supervisor to the auditor on how to perform an
129
1 audit on the preclear --
2 THE WITNESS: That's --
3 THE COURT: -- who is dying.
4 THE WITNESS: That's it exactly.
5 THE COURT: Okay.
6 THE WITNESS: And it was just -- Hubbard was
7 the CS here --
8 THE COURT: I see.
9 THE WITNESS: -- okay?
10 THE COURT: Did you ever know of this occurring
11 with someone who was psychotic and not dying?
12 THE WITNESS: You mean --
13 I'm not sure what you're asking.
14 THE COURT: Well, somebody who was a -- you
15 know, you -- I mean, I don't know, Mr. Dandar.
16 You're not going to get there.
17 PTS III --
18 THE WITNESS: Yes.
19 THE COURT: I believe it was PTS III, and it
20 was an introspection rundown, and -- who was in the
21 step called zero and zero zero --
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: -- being rest, relaxation, this
24 type of -- that -- zero, zero zero.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
130
1 THE COURT: Did you ever hear of anybody in
2 that stage that apparently wasn't responding, wasn't
3 able to be audited, yet that the CS wrote a
4 direction or wrote an audit program -- I'm saying
5 this poorly, I'm sure -- whatever you call it, that
6 said, "Drop the body," when the person couldn't even
7 be audited?
8 THE WITNESS: To a psychotic?
9 THE COURT: To a psychotic?
10 THE WITNESS: No.
11 THE COURT: Okay. Now, that's -- that would be
12 relevant to this case.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q So you -- you're not aware, in your experience, of
15 someone processing someone who's psychotic PTS Type III to
16 drop their body if they weren't -- if they had physically
17 declined to the point of needing medical help.
18 A No. I only know of terminal patients.
19 Q Pardon me?
20 Terminal.
21 A Terminal patients.
22 Q Okay. And if someone's terminal, why go through
23 this auditing process, or this ruds, as you call them, to
24 drop the body?
25 THE COURT: It's not important. It has no
131
1 bearing here.
2 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
3 THE COURT: Lisa McPherson was not capable of
4 being audited, under your theory or theirs -- or
5 theirs, meaning the plaintiff's or the defendant's.
6 So that is irrelevant.
7 Well, "incapable." The fact of the matter
8 was -- is, she wasn't audited. So she was tried --
9 as I recall, she was tried one time, she wasn't
10 up --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
12 THE COURT: She wasn't past the zero, zero
13 zero, so she couldn't be audited. Never was again.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 92, Search and
16 Discovery -- let me show you Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 92.
17 Does that appear to be a copy of Search and Discovery that
18 appears in the PTS/SP course book?
19 A Yes.
20 Q And you said you studied that course several
21 times?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And in that Search and Discovery bulletin --
24 What is that? A bulletin or a policy letter?
25 A It's a bulletin.
132
1 Q Okay.
2 -- by Mr. Hubbard, does he talk about that some
3 psychotics cannot be kept alive?
4 A Yes. And he also says, why bother in a lot of
5 cases?
6 Q Why bother?
7 A Yeah. I mean, we don't have the facilities to
8 take care of them. Why try to be -- we don't want to be in
9 the business of trying to rehabilitate psychotics.
10 Q Now, are you familiar with the term "introspection
11 rundown"?
12 A Yes. I did three or four of them while I was
13 on -- on -- as an auditor. I might have even gotten it once
14 or twice. But I performed it as an auditor, with Hubbard as
15 the CS.
16 Q And did any of those people that you performed --
17 or participated in an introspection rundown die?
18 A Not to my knowledge, no.
19 Q And do you know how the introspection rundown came
20 to be?
21 THE COURT: Did you want to introduce this
22 document?
23 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to move it into -- 92, I
24 believe, into evidence.
25 THE COURT: Any objection?
133
1 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think so. Could I just
2 take a look?
3 THE COURT: Sure. It was one the other day
4 that Ms. Summers, I believe, took a look at it. She
5 had never seen it.
6 MR. WEINBERG: I wasn't here that day.
7 THE COURT: I think I'm right. There was some
8 reason why it couldn't be identified.
9 MR. LIEBERMAN: You're right. She couldn't
10 recognize it.
11 THE COURT: Am I right?
12 MR. WEINBERG: We have a general objection, as
13 I stated before, as to relevance, but not as to the
14 authenticity of it.
15 THE COURT: All right. It will be received.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Except for the marks on it.
17 There are marks on that -- there were carets,
18 arrows --
19 MR. DANDAR: I have carets on it.
20 THE COURT: Could you get a clean one and
21 substitute it?
22 MR. DANDAR: I'll substitute it.
23 THE COURT: Or if you could get a clean one and
24 show it to Mr. Dandar and substitute it.
25 MR. DANDAR: That's fine. I can do it.
134
1 MR. WEINBERG: Should I give it back to him and
2 then --
3 THE COURT: No. Give it to the clerk because
4 it's in evidence right now. I want to make sure it
5 stays in evidence or whatever.
6 Madam Clerk, when he comes with a clean copy,
7 you can substitute, okay?
8 THE CLERK: Yes.
9 THE COURT: I'd rather have one in evidence if
10 it's in evidence.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
12 THE COURT: And we'll just ignore the carets
13 than have one get lost somehow. Mr. Dandar here
14 forgets to even move things into evidence sometimes,
15 and they end up here or back there.
16 MR. WEINBERG: That was 94. Is that what that
17 was?
18 MR. DANDAR: 92.
19 THE COURT: 92.
20 Madam Clerk, do me a favor. On my 92 -- you
21 will have that in a category that says "not
22 evidence." Would you take it out of that category
23 and put it in my in-evidence; just scratch through
24 that?
25 THE CLERK: Yes.
135
1 THE COURT: Thank you.
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q Mr. Franks, in your experience if someone wanted
4 to leave the Church of Scientology, would they be considered
5 to be psychotic?
6 A Yeah. It's almost one and the same.
7 Q Now, I had -- I showed you the fifth amended
8 complaint in this case, particularly paragraph 34, talking
9 about David Miscavige?
10 A Yes.
11 Q And paragraph 34 states, "The extremis medical
12 condition of Lisa McPherson was obvious to Scientology and
13 all of the individual defendants, yet the defendants, in
14 total and conscious disregard for the rights of Lisa
15 McPherson, willfully, intentionally, wantonly and
16 maliciously, towards the last days of her life, decided to
17 let Lisa McPherson die, paren, i.e., end cycle in
18 Scientology terms, close paren, rather than save her life,
19 even though her extremis physical condition was known to be
20 entirely reversible and Scientology has no restrictions on
21 seeking licensed professional medical care. This decision
22 made by Scientology, through the Sea Org, by David Miscavige
23 and carried out by Kartuzinski, Johnson and Houghton, was
24 only due to their desire to protect Scientology from bad
25 public relations."
136
1 Is that the paragraph I had you read?
2 A Yes.
3 Q Mr. Franks, based upon your experience and your
4 position as a former COB and ED int, international, do you
5 have an opinion, in conjunction with the facts --
6 (A discussion was held off the record.)
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q -- in conjunction with the -- what I told you
9 about the Lisa McPherson case, as to whether or not that
10 paragraph is accurate --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection, your Honor.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q -- within your experience.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Competence.
15 Objection to form. And he said, "Based on what I
16 told you, is that paragraph accurate"? I mean, this
17 man's already said he's had no experience; he wasn't
18 there; he's had no experience in these sort of
19 introspection rundown.
20 THE COURT: No, he did not. He said he'd been
21 through --
22 MR. WEINBERG: No --
23 THE COURT: -- three or four.
24 MR. WEINBERG: No. Where someone had died.
25 THE COURT: Oh.
137
1 MR. WEINBERG: 20 years -- how could possibly
2 he give an opinion, that opinion?
3 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Go ahead.
6 THE COURT: I don't know that I would allow it
7 at a trial. I'm going to allow it as to whether or
8 not this was a false complaint, knowingly false,
9 submitted by the lawyer.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
11 BY MR. DANDAR:
12 Q Go ahead.
13 A Excuse me. Can you -- can you just --
14 THE COURT: Here --
15 THE WITNESS: Tell me exactly what you want.
16 THE COURT: Let me let you see a copy of this,
17 because I don't know how in the world you could
18 remember.
19 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have it right here. You
20 don't have -- I'll just hand it to him.
21 THE COURT: And what's rather critical here,
22 sir, is if you're going to render an opinion, is
23 that you not just think because two thirds of it's
24 true that you render an opinion on all of it. In
25 other words, if you need to go line by line or
138
1 sentence by sentence, you certainly may do that.
2 THE WITNESS: Thank you.
3 THE COURT: This is a very large paragraph.
4 THE WITNESS: All right. Thanks.
5 Well, then, it's all right if I answer line by
6 line?
7 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 THE WITNESS: All right.
10 THE COURT: Or maybe sentence by sentence,
11 since each sentence presumably conveys a thought.
12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Okay. "Extremis medical
13 condition of Lisa McPherson was obvious to
14 Scientology and all of the individual defendants."
15 THE COURT: There'd be no way he would be
16 competent to tell us that.
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q But I told you that -- well, the opinions of the
20 pathologists retained by the estate, correct?
21 A Right.
22 Just -- the information that I've read, just the
23 fact that they were there right after Lisa, you know, was
24 taken to the hospital, and knew that this was a serious
25 situation -- we're talking --
139
1 THE COURT: You can assume -- and I'm going to
2 make this -- make this part of it easy for you. You
3 can assume that there is testimony from some of the
4 experts that would -- that would indicate that
5 sentence one is correct. There are other experts
6 would say sentence one is not correct. But for this
7 opinion, you may assume it's correct.
8 THE WITNESS: Okay.
9 "Yet the defendants, in total and conscious
10 disregard for the rights of Lisa McPherson,
11 willfully, intentionally, wantonly and maliciously,
12 towards the last days of her life, decided to let
13 Lisa McPherson die, end cycle in Scientology terms,
14 rather than save her life, even though her extremis
15 physical condition was known to be entirely
16 reversible, and Scientology has no restrictions on
17 seeking licensed professional medical care."
18 THE COURT: It does seem as if there are
19 several thoughts in there.
20 THE WITNESS: Sure does.
21 THE COURT: If you want to take those thoughts
22 apart, you may.
23 THE WITNESS: All right. What I see is that
24 you have OSA or the GO, as I knew him, handling this
25 as a PR flap. They were there at Morton Plant
140
1 Hospital. That's what I read.
2 Then you have the technology over here, and you
3 have this conflict. And there are all of these
4 different issues, like, is she paid; is she not
5 paid; is this going to be a PR flap; is it not going
6 to be a PR flap? And Lisa McPherson's well-being
7 fell through the cracks, because of this -- this
8 internal tension.
9 It's a mystery to me why -- I mean, their own
10 policy says, "Offload her. We can't deal with
11 this."
12 THE COURT: Can you answer -- I think really
13 the important thing here for this hearing -- and I
14 wouldn't begin to tell you what would be important
15 for a trial, but for this hearing, which is very
16 limited --
17 THE WITNESS: Okay.
18 THE COURT: -- I think perhaps the thing that
19 would be important is, are you able to tell us, with
20 any degree of expertise, that in fact -- forget the
21 total conscious disregard, forget willfully,
22 intentionally, wantonly and maliciously. Those are
23 somewhat legal terms. You don't need to worry about
24 that.
25 But what is important to this hearing is
141
1 whether or not, toward the last days of her life,
2 the defendant -- and I will describe the defendants
3 for you, if you don't know who they are. One is
4 Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization,
5 Inc. David Miscavige is not. He never was served.
6 Janis Johnson is a medical liaison officer. Alain
7 Kartuzinski is the senior case supervisor. David
8 Houghton is somebody who was a dentist who
9 apparently saw her once, maybe twice.
10 The issue is whether those defendants in
11 particular will say the Church of Scientology and
12 Alain Kartuzinski made a decision, during the last
13 days of her life, to let her die, end cycle, rather
14 than save her life, even though they knew that this
15 could be done.
16 Do you have any ability to tell us whether that
17 statement is true or not?
18 THE WITNESS: You're asking me, your Honor, did
19 these people --
20 THE COURT: Actually, he's asking you, but I'm
21 trying to get this down to something that you may or
22 may not be able to tell us. And that's -- if you
23 can't, you can't. If you can, you may tell us if
24 you have an opinion.
25 THE WITNESS: Did they -- did they decide --
142
1 THE COURT: Did they decide --
2 And of course, the problem is -- I really ought
3 to go on to the next line. And maybe we can get
4 this down to what it is.
5 The next line says, "This decision, made by
6 Scientology through the Sea Org, by David Miscavige,
7 was carried out by Kartuzinski, Johnson and
8 Houghton, and was only due -- was only due to their
9 desire to protect Scientology from bad public
10 relations."
11 So that's kind of the end line. But take that
12 line out of it for a minute, okay? That's a
13 different thought.
14 THE WITNESS: Right.
15 THE COURT: The thought, I think, here in the
16 middle, is that the defendants who are named -- that
17 happened be Mr. Kartuzinski, the senior -- I guess
18 he was a senior case supervisor.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
20 THE COURT: And it might have been temporary,
21 but he was it.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
23 THE COURT: And this Ms. Johnson, who was a
24 medical liaison, sort of watching out for her
25 medical condition, I suppose you might say;
143
1 Mr. Houghton probably wasn't even there at the time,
2 was he? Or hadn't been there in a while.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
4 THE COURT: Whether these folks -- these folks,
5 Mr. Kartuzinski, with or without someone above --
6 and she, made a decision about Lisa McPherson in the
7 last days of her life, knowing that she was
8 unattended -- I mean, not taken to a hospital, would
9 die, made a decision to do just that; let her die,
10 rather than save her life. Do you have any way that
11 you could tell us whether you -- you, based on your
12 knowledge and experience -- could give us an opinion
13 on that?
14 THE WITNESS: If you're asking me if there's a
15 policy letter that says, "Let her die," I know of no
16 such policy letter.
17 My opinion is that the indecision is what
18 killed her.
19 THE COURT: And that really can be decided by
20 medical experts who are very capable of testifying
21 to that, experts who would disagree. But Mr. --
22 Mr. Dandar has experts who are capable of saying, in
23 their opinion --
24 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
25 THE COURT: -- medically, had she been taken to
144
1 a hospital, treated, she wouldn't have died. Other
2 side has experts that are saying, really wouldn't
3 have mattered. Her cause of death was such it would
4 have onset suddenly and therefore --
5 But that's a medical thing.
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: I think what -- what I read into
8 here and what you're being called for by Mr. Dandar,
9 as an ex-Scientologist, as to whether or not -- is
10 there anything you can tell us, based on your
11 knowledge and experience, that this is what they
12 would have decided to do, and did it.
13 And I think what your answer is there's no
14 policy that would suggest that that's what they were
15 to do, and so it would be a guess. Is that what
16 you're saying?
17 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. I don't know of any
18 policy letter that says, "Let her die."
19 THE COURT: Okay.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Okay. Other than a policy in writing, is there a
22 unwritten policy to protect Scientology at all costs from
23 bad PR, public relations, which would include, "If we can't
24 minimize the PR flap, then this person can die"?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form.
145
1 THE COURT: Yeah. You know, Mr. Dandar, I know
2 you don't like my interfering here. You're going to
3 say I'm getting right in the middle of your case,
4 but I'm going to do it anyway, because that really
5 isn't the issue.
6 The issue is, would it be worse PR to let this
7 woman lay there and die, or would it be better PR to
8 take her to a hospital and see what happened? I
9 mean, the assumption is, I think, here -- and this
10 is part of the problem that I think Mr. Dandar has,
11 is that he is making this assumption -- I believe he
12 believes it. I believe he has an expert that
13 believes it -- that it was -- to avoid the PR flap,
14 let her die.
15 Well, you see, to an outsider like me, I'm
16 thinking, "Well, what in the world? How are you
17 avoiding PR by letting somebody die? Look at all
18 the bad PR."
19 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
20 THE COURT: You see what I'm saying?
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do.
22 THE COURT: It doesn't make much sense to me,
23 that that's a good choice, to let somebody die and
24 then take them to a hospital.
25 THE WITNESS: You would have thought that the
146
1 policy would have said that the worst thing you can
2 do is let her die.
3 THE COURT: Let her die.
4 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
5 THE COURT: So you know, if you don't know, if
6 you don't know if somebody's dying or not --
7 Let's say that his doctors are right. Let's
8 assume that, that his doctors are right. And here's
9 this gal, and she's laying in bed and she's
10 deteriorating, she's dehydrating; they can tell that
11 she's not getting better; she's starting to lose her
12 movement -- well, they have two choices: One is to
13 watch. Nothing's happening, nothing's getting
14 better. The choice is to let her die or take her to
15 the hospital -- I mean, of the two, to me, the
16 better PR is take her to a hospital.
17 THE WITNESS: Right.
18 Well, there's no doubt that they goofed up, you
19 know?
20 THE COURT: Yeah. And that's -- that's the
21 issue. And that's going to be an issue for a jury,
22 is did they goof up or not?
23 They disagree. Their experts disagree. That's
24 why we have juries and all that sort of stuff.
25 But do you know of anything, based on your PR
147
1 policy or otherwise, that would have --
2 Mr. Kartuzinski would have -- let's forget
3 Mr. Miscavige for the moment -- but that
4 Mr. Kartuzinski would have passed the word down to
5 Janis Johnson, who would have passed the word down
6 to the workers, "Well, just there's nothing you can
7 do. Just let her die," or, "Keep doing what you're
8 doing. Maybe she'll get better, but if she doesn't,
9 let her die." I mean, do you know of anything that
10 would have --
11 THE WITNESS: No, I don't. As I said, what I
12 know are the LRH CSs, where a person was terminal.
13 You know, it was -- you compared it to a Hospice.
14 And I think that kind of care is what Hubbard had in
15 mind.
16 THE COURT: And in -- in this case, she was
17 only terminal when she was -- in other words, she
18 was either terminal because she was going downhill,
19 which they should have recognized and taken her to a
20 hospital, which could have reversed the situation,
21 or she was terminal and it was too late. And that
22 simply is up to, who do you believe, among the
23 doctors? And that's a different issue.
24 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
25 THE COURT: But can you think of any scenario,
148
1 in your history as a Scientologist, who would have
2 said, "Well, we're going to try to avoid bad PR
3 here, so we're just going to step back and let her
4 die, and by doing that, we're going to avoid the bad
5 PR." Would that make sense to you?
6 THE WITNESS: No. Hubbard would always get
7 them off the premises and let them die at their
8 home.
9 THE COURT: Or a hospital.
10 THE WITNESS: Right.
11 THE COURT: If they have no -- they have no --
12 I mean, the church has no policy against a hospital.
13 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
14 THE COURT: Is that true?
15 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- I don't know that I
16 would say that.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, you would say
18 that if they wouldn't take her to a hospital, they
19 would take her home --
20 THE WITNESS: Yes.
21 THE COURT: -- to -- I guess Texas is where she
22 was from.
23 THE WITNESS: Right.
24 THE COURT: But they wouldn't let her die on
25 the premises where they would then have to deliver a
149
1 dead body to a hospital.
2 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. Yeah.
3 THE COURT: Pardon me?
4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Absolutely.
5 THE COURT: They would not do that, is that
6 true?
7 THE WITNESS: They would not -- it's -- it's
8 really bizarre. They would not want a dead body in
9 the hotel.
10 THE COURT: That we would then have to take to
11 a hospital, who would then have to turn it over to a
12 medical examiner, who would then make it public.
13 THE WITNESS: Right. Especially when they've
14 promised the ER person they would take care of them.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Now I want to go down to the
16 last line here.
17 "This decision --"
18 All right. We're past the one before, okay?
19 At least what I need to know, Mr. Dandar. I'm going
20 to let you go into this later.
21 "The decision made by Scientology to the Sea
22 Org by David Miscavige and carried out by
23 Kartuzinski, Johnson and Houghton, was only due to
24 their desire to protect Scientology from bad public
25 relations."
150
1 Two things: One is, is it your opinion, based
2 on your knowledge of the Scientology -- what shall I
3 say? Organization -- that this person, who was PTS
4 III, in the introspection rundown, that this would
5 have been reported to the top; to Mr. Miscavige?
6 THE WITNESS: Without a doubt.
7 THE COURT: Okay. That's number 1.
8 Number 2, would you have any reason to think
9 that Mr. Miscavige would in turn order them to let
10 her die as opposed to take her home? Would you be
11 able to tell us --
12 THE WITNESS: Well --
13 THE COURT: -- that David Miscavige, from afar,
14 would have made some decision like that?
15 THE WITNESS: I don't even know that that was
16 an issue, because I don't -- I haven't read anything
17 that said anybody knew that she was dying. Is there
18 something?
19 THE COURT: Well, to this extent: To the
20 extent that his experts -- his, meaning
21 Mr. Dandar's, for the record -- his experts would
22 opine that she was in a dehydrated state that would
23 have been obvious, so obvious that she would have
24 been in a uremic coma.
25 Unlike a coma you and I might think of, a
151
1 uremic coma is one where you can come in and out of
2 it.
3 THE WITNESS: Mm-hmm.
4 THE COURT: If somebody kind of shakes you, you
5 can be alerted and waken and fed, but then, you
6 know, left to your own devices, you go back to
7 sleep, because your body is -- go back into a coma.
8 THE WITNESS: I see.
9 THE COURT: Your body is shutting down.
10 And that this would have been fairly obvious --
11 in fact, not only fairly obvious, it would have been
12 very obvious, and somebody would have been watching
13 and saying, "We've got to do something here."
14 THE WITNESS: If they had had anybody there
15 qualified to --
16 THE COURT: To make that decision.
17 THE WITNESS: -- see what was going on.
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 And so that being Mr. Dandar's expert's theory,
20 he -- he takes that one step further -- or he and
21 another ex-Scientologist -- who say, "Well, then,
22 what must have happened -- what must have happened,"
23 there's only one explanation for that, I guess, "is
24 that Mr. Miscavige must have said, 'Well, then just
25 let her die because we don't want a bad PR flap.'"
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1 And I guess the question is -- is, does that
2 make a great deal of sense to you, that the -- that
3 would have been the order given?
4 If you can answer that. If you say, "Jeez, I
5 just don't know," that's an answer, and you can say
6 that too.
7 THE WITNESS: All I see is indecision here.
8 That's what I see. Indecision.
9 There wasn't -- there wasn't anybody who was
10 qualified medically, because they don't -- they were
11 afraid of what the doctors might do. That's how
12 I -- I interpret them taking this nurse off the
13 case, Nurse Webber, I think, was her name. She was
14 a Scientology nurse?
15 THE COURT: I'm not sure --
16 Yes. She was a friend -- the friend that was
17 not put on the case?
18 THE WITNESS: I think so. Yes. That's the
19 one.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: The one who the ER doctor
22 released --
23 THE COURT: Right.
24 THE WITNESS: -- Lisa to.
25 But -- so there wasn't anybody to say, "This is
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1 a uremic coma," or, "This is what's going on."
2 And --
3 THE COURT: That wasn't medically trained to
4 the point -- there -- there was another lady there,
5 that spoke Spanish, that supposedly says she has
6 some medical knowledge.
7 And that will go along with the church's theory
8 that there was somebody there with medical knowledge
9 who would have known --
10 I mean, as I said, you have two very distinct
11 medical differences here. And they're all qualified
12 experts, and they're all quality people. And
13 really, nobody -- I have no reason to think
14 either -- any of these experts are telling stories
15 for one side or the other. They just very much
16 disagree with what happened here. And that's not
17 uncommon.
18 But what we need to decide here, or what's
19 important to see what -- what is going to a jury or
20 what isn't going to a jury, is if you would have any
21 reason that, if their scenario is true, that this
22 should have been obvious, that it was anything more
23 than just gross negligence, where they just didn't
24 know any better, didn't do anything, which is one
25 scenario; or more importantly, whether, based on
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1 your knowledge and experience, it would be your
2 belief that David Miscavige, to avoid a PR flap,
3 would say -- then let this woman, who was in his
4 hotel in Clearwater, die?
5 THE WITNESS: I -- I think maybe he might have
6 said, "Don't -- let her go back to the hospital.
7 Don't let any doctors in there."
8 But any decision to let her die -- I've never
9 seen any policy that would direct that.
10 THE COURT: It wouldn't seem to me that it
11 would help the PR. Would it you?
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 THE COURT: And if -- if in fact Mr. Miscavige
14 were kept informed on a daily basis, and somebody
15 had said, "Look, this is getting worse and worse,"
16 you would think that that would be the worst PR
17 possible, to let her die, wouldn't you?
18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I -- in my opinion --
19 I -- I know David -- up to '81. I know he's a
20 real earnest kind of guy. He's -- he's a real
21 micromanager type of guy. So he was probably
22 watching this all of the time.
23 But nobody is telling him, "Hey, this girl is
24 in a coma. This girl is going to die. This girl is
25 not getting enough hydration." You know, these are
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1 just things that I've read.
2 THE COURT: What would you think would happen
3 if he was being kept informed and had been -- well,
4 this is a real scenario. But what if he had been
5 being kept informed and had known that, do you think
6 he would have given an order to just, "Well, let her
7 die then," and forget it, or do you think he would
8 have given some other order, or -- or do you have
9 any way of knowing?
10 THE WITNESS: What he would have done is he
11 would have covered his -- his butt and the church's
12 butt. He would have made sure that no PR flap came
13 out of this.
14 It would be speculation to say what they would
15 do with Lisa and how they would have handled it.
16 Maybe they would have put her in a trailer and
17 brought her back to Texas and get her into a
18 hospital there. I don't see them saying, "Hey,
19 better to shut her up forever."
20 THE COURT: By letting her die, and then take
21 her to a hospital.
22 THE WITNESS: Right.
23 THE COURT: Okay. Those are the issues,
24 Mr. Dandar. You can expand on those.
25 MR. DANDAR: Well, within your --
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1 THE COURT: But you know what? It's 12, so
2 let's quit.
3 MR. DANDAR: One question?
4 THE COURT: All right.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Within your experience, and reading this
7 paragraph, how the Church of Scientology operates, they
8 would offload her and -- you said, and try to get her back
9 to somewhere other than being on Flag property?
10 A Create as much distance between this individual
11 and Flag, yeah.
12 Q But not take her to the closest emergency room
13 from where she came 17 days before?
14 A Absolutely. I would think that -- that's why I
15 said, take her to Texas and have -- put her in the hospital
16 back there.
17 MR. DANDAR: All right.
18 THE COURT: Or earlier on, perhaps, if things
19 looked bad, take her back to her mom and say, "You
20 know, we're not equipped to deal with this."
21 THE WITNESS: Right.
22 Well --
23 THE COURT: Didn't you say, in some of your
24 introspection rundowns, that that was what you did,
25 was take the psychotic people home?
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1 THE WITNESS: No.
2 THE COURT: Oh.
3 THE WITNESS: I didn't say that.
4 THE COURT: I thought I wrote that down.
5 THE WITNESS: But I don't see anybody of -- any
6 church ever admitting, "Hey, we can't handle this."
7 There would always be that resistance to do that.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Why?
10 A Well, I don't seem to have a short answer for
11 that.
12 This --
13 THE COURT: You want to save it until after
14 lunch?
15 THE WITNESS: Sure. That's a good idea.
16 THE COURT: Okay. And --
17 THE WITNESS: Punt.
18 THE COURT: That's all right.
19 And remember when you come back too, that you
20 talked about the psychotic that you had to put off
21 the boat.
22 THE WITNESS: Okay.
23 THE COURT: Okay?
24 All right. We'll be in recess till 1:15.
25 (A recess was taken at 12:08 p.m.)
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1
2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
authorized to and did stenographically report the
7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
8
I further certify that I am not a relative,
9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
11
12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 13th day of June,
13 2002.
14
15 ______________________________
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR
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