2-241-276




supposed to write: "Dear Mom," you know, "things
are fine, weather is beautiful," you know, "getting a
tan," you know, "went to Disney World last week."
You know, you're not supposed to mention that the City of
Clearwater is about ready to burn the building. You weren't
supposed to tell them about the bad things, the bad news. You
were supposed to just give them good roads, fair weather, just
wishy-washy, ho-hum letters, which most people could see right

through.
Since I've gotten out, my family has said -- has told me that
when they'd get these letters, they knew that it wasn't me. It

seemed a little fakey to them.
Anyway, there's a little thing on my outline about my -- about
marriage and legal discretions. I don't know if you want me to go

into that or not.

MR. FYNN: It's pertinent, go ahead.
MR. LeCHER: If the Attorney, Mr. Flynn, thinks it's pertinent,

then, go ahead.

MR. FLYNN: For a very specific reason.

MR. KELLEY: Okay. I don't know about this.
I was married on March 6th, '79. My wife and I obtained a
marriage license and had blood tests here in Clearwater. We were
married by a friend of mine in my office who is a minister. We

were both ministers at the

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time, too, but that isn't pertinent. We were married by a

Scientology minister.
Four months later, we got second thoughts about the marriage,
which is really not apropos here. The minister said - Reverend Al
- he said, "Well, you don't have to worry about a divorce
because I never sent your marriage certificate in." He said,
"I wanted to save you some trouble in case it popped

up." I.said, "Hey, no sweat, great," you know.

MR. LeCHER: Does your wife know she's no longer married?

MR. KELLEY: Yes.
MR. FLYNN: That's why it's significant, Mayor. But there still
may be a legal issue and there may be a situation where neither
party is exactly certain of their legal rights--at this point as
to whether they are married or divorced, because the city may
have been allowing a minister of the Church to issue a marriage
license which was not recorded. And both parties may now feel

that they are married or divorced, and the matter is in limbo.

MR. KELLEY: I hope not because she remarried.

MR. LeCHER: I'hope she's not a bigamist.

Anyway, let's get back to reality. You're no longer

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married as far as

MR. KELLEY: The reason we thought that we felt
that was significant was that I don't think I was the only person

to do that.

MRS., GARVEY: You mean, married by a Scientologist?

MR. KELLEY: Oh, no, there are tons of those.
I mean, there's -- because people see that -- see, the no
premarital sex law that they have, which is -some of us had a
little trouble adjusting to that, and -though, we just still
followed it. So, consequently, there's a lot of rapid marriages,
short courtships. And at least -- you wouldn't believe -- you
wouldn't believe it even if I told you. But -- and consequently,
there's a lot of short marriages over there.- But they're married
by a Scientologist and the divorce is usually uncontested, at

least amogst staff members.
Anyway, let's wander off here to living conditions. I lived in
all three buildings that staff members lived in while here. I
lived at the Fort Harrison, the Quality Inn, and the Heart of

Clearwater.
Most of that time I spent in rooms with ten to twelve people in
them, regular hotel rooms. Sometimes more, sometimes less. It
usually averaged about eight to ten, because I had many different

rooms. People would

2-244

move often.
When I first came on staff here, they had what's called the men's
dorm. You wonl~ believe this. We had fifty-four bunks in that

room.

MR. LeCHER: In one room?
M R. KELLEY: It wasn't a hotel room; it was a little bigger than
that. It was in the old locker room of the old Jack Heart Hotel.
It was downstairs and, obviously, there wasn't a whole lot of
room to move around down there. But it was definitely -- it was
fifty. four bunks and -- I'm trying to remember if we had any
vacancies. There was probably forty-eight men living in there at
the time, and I lived therefor six months. That wasn't a real

pleasant place; it was pretty crowded.

That's-all I have for my statement.
MR. LenER: Well, you mentioned that the money was as high as 2.3
million and averaged four to five hundred thousand dollars a

week.

MR. KELLEY: That's correct.

MR. LeCHER: And the Sea Org. took the money.

MR. KELLEY: Yes.

MR. LeCHER: Do you know their names, the Sea Org. people?

MR. KELLEY: I know the post titles, a couple of

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them. One of them was the SOR Chief, and -- boy. I'm trying to
remember. I know who was in on it, how's that? One of them was
the Director of Records, Assets, and Materiel. And his name was

Homer Shomer.

MR. LeCHER: Homer Shomer?
MR. KELLEY: Homer Shomer. A nice a nice, littleJewish man, Homer

Shomer and
MR.LeCHER: Well, we don't want to get into nationalities or

religion.

MR. KELLEY: Well, that's another story.
Anyway, Homer knew what was going on at the SOR. But, like I say,
these guys played it pretty close to the chest. He mentioned to
me one, time about investing it in possibly gold or gems of some
kind. But he definitely did not go into specifics. This was when
gold was going for, I think, eight hundred dollars an ounce or
something. There was speculation on what they should invest some
of this money in. They also mentioned something about property.
But this was just in passing. I used to hang out in his office

while I was digging through invoices.
But he didn't say, "We bought fourteen pounds of gold."

But he said SOR was considering it, the SOR Committee.

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Some of the other -- one of the other posts in charge that was in
on that SOR -- I can't remember the exact title. It was a person
that was in charge of all treasury departments worldwide. There's
a person over in the West coast -_ most Scientology organizations

have seven divisions., Around the world, most of them have seven.
There's a person at Flag that's in charge of all of those -- of
each of them. Like, this person is a person in charge of the
treasury division. And she was in on it. She was in charge of all

finances worldwide. But I
MR. LeCHER: Do you think all that money went back to Los Angeles
that was collected in Clearwater or was it spread to.do good work

in the City of Clearwater?

MR. KELLEY: I don't know exactly where it went.

MR. LeCHER: Where the money went. You just know you collected it?

MR.-KELLEY: Right. I know where some of it didn't go.

MR. LeCHER: Do you want to tell me where it didn't go?
MR. KELLEY: Yeah. one of the places it didn't go was for meals

for

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the -- food. It was not like no -- we were fed, but it was often
low quality Especially for the amount of money we were making,
like, you know -- they were making -say, we had a bad week and
only made four hundred thousand dollars. You know, the expenses

aren't going to come near that, you know.

MR. LeCHER: Well, didn't you also get fed beans and rice?
MR. KELLEY: On one occasion for a week we did, which was an

interesting story.

MR. LeCHER: I heard -- we -

MR. KELLEY: I mean, Miss Taverna mentioned something about that.
. What had happened was -- we had a person that was treasury
secretary for the Flag Ship Organization who was a little-off his
rocker. And what he was doing, basically, was making up money. He

was reporting money that hadn't actually been turned in.
And so, the organization thought they had this amount of money to
spend, when, in fact, it was down here, all right? And this guy
was -- I mean, he was the big cheese. But he was the new kid on
the block, you know, he was the boy wonder. He was making all

this money; no one actually saw it. But here he was making

2-248

all this money.
And our gross income was over the five hundred thousand dollar
mark, which, at that time, was the highest ever. I mean, it was
just phenomenal. Most of it was coming from this one guy in the
department. And it was just great; boy, we were all enthused
about it. And then, we found out that this guy wasn't all -he
didn't have all his stuff in one bag, and he got they put him in

the RPF.

MR. LeCHER: He belonged in the RPF.
MR. KELLEY: Right. I mean, this guy was nuts. He was reporting

money that we didn't have.

MR-. LeCHER: Was that Homer Shomer?
MR. KELLEY: No. Let's not make Homer jokes. What happened was we
got a telex from Ron, from L. Ron -- from LRH that said,
"You thought you could make five hundred thousand dollars,
so do it." And that is a quote. "You have by the end of
next week to do it. You better get your honest GI up to five
hundred grand or you're going on beans and rice." And our
honest GI, at that time, was around three hundred, three hundred

fifty, you know.

MR. LeCHER: What is an honest GI?

MR. KELLEY: That's what we were already making

2-249

before David what's his face was falsely reporting statistics.
so well., we didn't make it. We didn't come up we didn't make
five hundred thousand dollars by the deadline. We went on beans
and rice. I remember that was on my birthday, 1978. And I
remember it because everybody else was eating beans and rice and

I had cake. it was October 13th -
MR. LeCHER: Didn't that bother you, though, to tak in four or

five hundred thousand a month and have beans and rice?

MR. KELLEY: That's a week.

MR. LeCHER: A week? A week, rather.
Didn't that get you to think, you know, "They can at least
afford to give me a hamburger or a steak or a lobster," or--

something like that?
MR. KELLEY: I wasn't real pleased with it. But it and I really

felt it was unfair to punish the whole staff because one 
guy was a little off, you know. I never have believed that you

should punish everybody for one person's messing up. 
But you -- I was pretty well indoctrinated then. That was when I

was new on staff and I wasn't -- I got disenchanted 
later on. So, this is when I was new and I was still dedicated-

I-think I ate

2-250

at McDonald's that week.

MR. LeCHER: What were you paid?
MR. KELLEY: At that time, when I first came on staff, I was paid

$8.60 a week.

MR. LeCHER: Eighty?

MR. KELLEY: Eight bucks

MR. LeCHER: Eight dollars?
MR. KELLEY: Eight-sixty, $8.60. That was for the first -- oh,
boy, a long time, year and-a-half, until I became a full- fledged

staff member and, then, it went up to seventeen-twenty.

MR. LeCHER: All right.
Well, how did you live? I mean, you had to buy personal things.

You had to buy toothpaste -
MR. KELLEY: My main vice is pipe tobacco. You just spread your
money very thin. That's all you buy is your personal things. You

don't go out, eat, nothing, you know.

MRS. GARVEY: You couldn't go to a restaurant often.

MR. LeCHER: You couldn't go to McDonald's very often.
MR. KELLEY: No. You couldn't go to McDonald's at all. Even when

you were making the whole seventeen

2-251
twenty, it was kind of rough to go. You know, see, when you're in
the galley to eat lunch and you didn't like it, you know, you had
whatever it was and you weren't enthused about that meal, you
didn't go to McDonald's too often. You know, it was just kind of
-- that's one of the main reasons I got out, because here I was
working seventy to eighty hours a week and I'm making twenty

bucks, you know.

This did not jive. It just didn't add up.

MRS. GARVEY: Good thinking.

MR. LeCHER: Okay.. MR. KELLEY: It took a while

MR. LeCHER: Okay.
So, that gave you your first clue: seventy to eighty hours a week

for $20.00 and you got disillusioned then.

MR. KELLEY: Right.
'MR. LeCHER: Most of the people that I see walking down the

street look about your age.

Are they existing on family money or -
MR. KELLEY:' Very few. There's a few people that have family

money. And those are the people you see driving.

MR. LeCHER: Driving.

2-252
MR. KELLEY: I tend to make things sound funny when I'm nervous. I
don't want to make this sound any less serious than it is,

because it is very serious
People have -- most of the people, the staff members, that do
drive cars have family money. David Ziff drives a Jaguar; he has

lots of family money.
MR. LeCHER: Well, when you're living with fiftyfive men to a
room, an old locker room, didn't you question that that could be

a -- cause disease or spread of disease or an epidemic

MR. KELLEY: -We were we kept it

MR. LeCHER: -- or social problems, like the_ bathroom?
MR. KELLEY: We kept that place spotless. We really did; we did
keep it clean. We kept it very clean, as a matter of fact-. So,

there wasn't too much spread of that.
MR. LeCHER: One question I'd like to ask -- and I don"t know
if you can answer me; you may be the wrong witness to ask this,

but no one's asked it yet.
Why Clearwater? And why did you come in under the United Churches

of Florida? Why not what you re ally were?
MR. KELLEY: Because I doubt if you would have sold us the

buildings.

2-253
MR. LeCHER: Well, I didn't have anything to do with selling the

buildings.
MR. KELLEY: Well, when I was here, I asked -that was the reason
that I heard was that -- it's just speculation on my part
or'things that I've heard from people who were here at that time.
They said they couldn't have bought the building or they would
have raised the price of the building at the Fort Harrison if

they would have found out who it was.
MR. LeCHER: But you just -- they just decided Clearwater was a

nice little town they could take over?

MR. KELLEY: It had big, cheap hotels. In other 'words

MR. LeCHER: Big, cheap hotels?
MR. KELLEY: That was another part of it. That's my wording,
obviously, because the Fort Harrsion was, to my knowledge -- it
was rather run down when they bought it in '75. It was on a -- it

was a buy, apparently. It was two million dollars or something.

MR. LeCHER: I think two-five.

MR. HATCHETT: Two-five.
MR. LeCHER: Well, I was in there, of course, not recently, but
when it was the old hotel and I -remember the rooms being very

small, old salesman-type hotel with

2-254
little tiny beds. I remember that type of room. I don't know how
you could fit -- two people in that room would be a crowd. How
anyone can fit eight or ten in those little tiny, old-timey
salesman-type hotel rooms -- it's got to be something's got to be
wrong someplace. There's got to be a health hazard or it's got to

cause all kinds of other problems.
MR. KELLEY: I just got off a naval ship and it's pretty similar

as far as size -
MR. LeCHER: They're not taking in four or five hundred thousand

dollars a week, either.

MR. KELLEY: Right.
MR. LeCHER: Okay. I can go on, but I'm going to yield now to

regging tours?

MR. KELLEY: Regging tours?
MR. LeCHER: Regging tours and how they channel business back to

Clearwater. What is this all about, regging tours?

MR. KELLEY: Regging.

MR. LeCHER: Regging.
MR. KELLEY: You -- it's a registrar. A person who -- a registrar

is a person who takes in money. He

2-255
tells the person how much he needs the service or -- and then,
gets him to give him a check for the service. Like I said,
they've got three regging tours that are out around the world

just regging up money for the Clearwater operation.

MR. LeCHER:. How do you get to be a regging?

MR. KELLEY: Reg, a registrar?

MR. LeCHER: It's not the best job. I mean

MR. KELLEY: Those guys make good money; they.make good bonuses.

MR. LeCHER: Are they paid commission?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. Not on -- they're paid commission on books.
MR. LeCHER: From this four to five hundred thousand to a million

or 2.3, did anybody get a cut on that?

MR. CALDERBANK: Or a bonus?

MR. LeCHER: Or a bonus, like
MR. KELLEY: Oh, certainly. The whole staff -everybody got a
bonus. Everybody got at least $150.00. Everybody got at least a

bonus on that-one.

MR. LeCHER: Even you?
MR. KELLEY: Even me. Everyone did. As far as I know one person

who sold 1.1 million

2-256

dollars in books. One guy

MR. LeCHER: One man?
MR. KELLEY: -- in Europe, and he got, I believe it was, five

percent, which is fifty grand in commission.

MR. LeCHER: Was it a library?
MR. KELLEY: Yes. It was a whole bunch of books. He was this
gentleman in, I think it was, Lucerne, Switzerland was starting a
chain of missions there. And he bought in a lump sum. He had old,
European family money. Walter Hegetschweiler. No one on earth

will ever

MR. LeCHER: Walter Hegetschweiler?

MR. KELLEY: Yes. I can spell it if you want me to.

MR. LeCHER: Spell it, please.
MR. KELLEY: I think I'm the one person at Flag that ever could.

H-e-g-e-t-s-c-h-w-e-i-l-e-r.

MRS. GARVEY: Good for you.
MR. LeCHER: All right. I know we're getting down to the end,
ladies and gentlemen, but let's just be nice and act, like good

gentlemen and gentleladies. We don't want to make this a farce.

MR. KELLEY: No.

MR. LeCHER: This is serious. I know you're a good,

2-257
entertaining witness, but this is not a farce; it is serious. And
we don't want to be criticized for ridiculing another man's or

woman's organization.
MR. KELLEY: One thing I was told to mention was that was the

bonus -- some people were paid bonuses in paper

MR. LeCHER: Like script?

MR. KELLEY: No, their account would be credited.

MRS. GARVEY: Toward taking another course?
MR. KELLEY: Right. And on-this particular occasion, I believe
that was made in cash, or a check given. He since -the gentleman
that sold the course I mean, those books to Mr. Hegetschweiler
bought his auditing at that time. And a staff member doesn't ever
have to buy auditing; he never has to,- But rather than wait
around to get his NED for OTs auditing, he just paid for it,
which was -I thought it was kind of foolish myself, because a man
that does that amount of business for the Church eventually will
be awarded. that auditing for nothing. But he turned right around

and spent forty thousand of it for his auditing.
MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield, do you have any questions you'd like to

ask?

2-258

MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple.

Mr. Kelley, do you mind if I call you Casey?

MR. KELLEY: No.
MR. BERFIELD: I'm still not sure: Why or how did you ever get

involved in Scientology?
MR. KELLEY: I was going to Florida State Universit in Fort

Lauderdale.
MR. BERFIELD: Did you take any of their auditing courses or

anything like that?
MR. KELLEY: I never paid for one, other than -after I came on

staff.
MR. BERFIELD: Did -- in taking those, have you reviewed any of

those books since you've taken a course?
MR. KELLEY: No, I haven't. I haven't been too enthused about
hearing anything about Scientology since I got out in October of

last year.

MR. BERFIELD: You're no longer associated with them?

MR. KELLEY: No.

MR. BERFIELD: Why did you leave Scientology?
MR. KELLEY: I left -- the original reason I left Clearwater was

to go on vacation. And when I got on vacation, my 
brother had contacted some people about Scientology and had done

his research on what was

2-259
actually going on. And he just kind of verbally -- he asked me

what I was doing in a rather point-blank way. 
You.know, "Why are you working these hours for this amount

of money?" And "Where is this money going?" And
I said, "Jesus, I don't know." Then, I started thinking

about it on my own. And that'$ how I got out. I just never 

returned from my vacation.
MR. BERFIELD: The job that you were in, was that more of a

financial management-type job?
MR. KELLEY: The job is actually located in the executive
division. I spent a lot of time in treasury. I saw every invoice
that came in, all of them: John Travolta -- I don't want to name

celebrity names, but I saw everybody's invoice.

MR. BERFIELD: Did everybody -

MR. KELLEY: I had them on my list.

MR. BERFIELD: Did everyone pay cash for their services or

MR. KELLEY: Check; mostly check.

MR. BERFIELD: Was there any promissory notes or anything

MR. KELLEY: No, you couldn't do that.

MR. BERFIELD: You couldn't do that.

2-260

MR. KELLEY: No.

MR. BERFIELD: Did you -

MR. KELLEY: You had to have the money on hand.
MR. BERFIELD: So, you had no collection problems as far as

getting the money?
MR. KELLEY: The only time you'd have collection problems would
be, say, a person bought some auditing. He did the auditing, but
he was in the middle of an auditing action and he had -- he
needed more, or else there could be dire consequences for the
individual. Say, there was a possibility that he might get
killed, whatever. Then, he would go in debt to the organization
and get either review auditing or whatever it was that was

needed. And that sometimes got pretty expensive.

That's-the only time a public person would owe the organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know how they collect their money?
MR. KELLEY: I certainly do. I used to work in the office where it
was done. They would call them or write them letters or
-basically, a lot the same way that they get regular money,

except this was a little -- this seemed to be a little nastier.

2-261

MR. BERFIELD: How go?

MR. KELLEY: Well, you know, "You owe us money."
MR. BERFIELD: Did you get that from mean, there was no force or

coercion to collect this money?,
MR. KELLEY: None that I ever saw. They sometimes I got -- none

that I ever saw.
MR. BERFIELD: Did you ever.see an y'kind of a working budget? In

other words, when you took in four hundred
thousand dollars a week, it cost a hundred and fifty or two

hundred thousand dollars a week to run the hotel?
MR. KELLEY: A working budget? Every week, the financial planning

for that week would be posted.

MR. BERFIELD:- What would that be?
MR. KELLEY: That would be, like, how much money was spent for
phone calls -- well, each division, how much money th-ey had
allocated to them For-example, our office had twenty-five hundred
bucks on phone calls. That's how much we were allocated; we spent

more than that.

MR. BERFIELD: But did you see this for the whole operation?
MR. KELLEY: Oh, yes. But I can't remember toomuch because -- I'm

sorry, because it was just

MR. BERFIELD: No, no, no, no.

2-262
MR. KELLEY: -- on a piece of paper, and if it didn't concern my

office, I really wasn't paying that much attention.
MR. BERFIELD: So, in other words, on a poorer week when they got
four hundred thousand dollars, you don't know whether their

operating budget was a hundred and twenty thousand or
MR. KELLEY: No.I know that on a poorer week it was tougher to get
something that -- it was like getting blood from a turnip to get

money out of the Financial Planning Committee. I know that.
For example, I used my boss's typewriter, which was his own
personal electric typewriter. And I tried to get the organization
to rent one for him so I could give him back his. And no one at
Requests would give me a typewriter, you know, which seemed to me
to be a bit odd, you know, because our office was doing an

outstanding job. And yet, we still couldn't get the typewriter.

You know, it's hard to get money from the organization.
MR. BERFIELD: Question: When you were mentioning these living
expenses -- living conditions similar to the military, did you

ever have any kind of inspection

2-263

or -

MR. KELLEY: Oh, yeah.
MR. BERFIELD: -- from the Fire Marshall? What happened in a

situation like that?
MR. KELLEY: Well, it's like Lori.said. I mean, you would know

they were coming and there'd be a giant press to 
clean the place up a lot. You know, you made sure all the

dormitories were all clean and neat and that sort of thing.

MR. BERFIELD: But do you know if they moved beds or anything?
MR. KELLEY: The only thing I can remember on that sort of deal
was when a young man by the -- which doesn't really have to do
with a fire inspection; it has to do with moving a person. I
remember when Charles Fletcher had trouble with his parents here
in Clearwater because they were -- that was a big deal here in
the city. I remember the mayor was in on it or somebody; it was a
big deal. His parents came down and tried to get him out of here.
Well, he was living in the dorm at the time down there with
forty-seven other people. They moved him upto a regular public
room for the day. They put him and one other person in a regular

room. They moved in some

2-264
books and made it lived in so, when his parents came to visit
him, he had a regular room with just one other person when, in

actual fact, he lived downstairs with the rest of us.
MR. BERFIELD: Just a question out of curiosity here: To this day,

you do not know whether you're divorced or
MR. KELLEY: I consider myself to be. I mean, the marriage

certificate no longer -- it didn't get sent in.

MR. BERFIELD: Do you know that for a fact?

MR. KELLEY: Yes, because I chopped it up with a pair of scissors.
MR. BERFIELD: What happens on these other marriage that are
performed? Do they go through the legal steps of getting divorces

if there are divorces?
MR. KELLEY: If they get -- as far as I know, they do. See, that's
in -- that's bad news, and you don't talk about bad news between
yourselves. You know, I had several friends who got divorced last

year and that was bad news; we didn't discuss it.
MR. BERFIELD: Just one final question: It's still unclear in my
mind what would motivate you to come down on liberty and talk to

us?

2-265

MR. KELLEY: A chance to get back.

MR. BERFIELD: Back at
MR. KELLEY: Back at Scientology because I feel like I got the

short end of the stick for those three years, and I feel 
I have something to say. I had some dealings I worked there for

three years. I felt that I had some testimony that 

would be of value to the Commission.
MR. BERFIELD: Well, do you feel it's a more vindictive one than

an informative one?
MR. KELLEY: No. It's because I had -- you know, I had gotten
terribly emotional about the whole thing. don't feel like I'm
going to go bomb -- you know, I'm not going to go calling bomb
threats or anything like that. I don't feel vindictive in an
emotional way. But Scientology is something that I feel most
people don't know about what really goes on up here at the'Fort

Harrison. And I knew.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you think that should be of deep concern to this

Commission and the people in -

MR. KELLEY: Definitely.

MR. BERFIELD: Why?
MR. KELLEY: Because they're doing things that I feel are

unethical.

MR. BERFIELD: For example?
MR. KELLEY: Twenty bucks a week for seventy hours seems a bit
one-sided to me; things of that nature. if you -- I don't know
about these people that are in the Rehabilitation Project Force;
things of that nature. These things should be found out about. I
don't think the people of Clearwater really know what's going on.

They put up a good front over there.
MR. BERFIELD: Can you tell us any other things that you think we
should know about or in your opinion we should be informed about?

Do you think health is a factor over there?

MR. KELLEY: I know that I got had blood
poisoning a couple of times. But I don't know if that's still a

problem now or not.

MR. BUFIELD: What about the safety of the people?

MR. KELLEY: Food poisoning, I'm sorry; food poisoning. Pardon?

MR. BERFIELD: The safety of the people?

MR. KELLEY: I don't think they're in any great physical danger.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you think you could have evacuated that room

with fifty some fellows if they had a fire?

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MR. KELLEY: Yes, because we did it a couple of times. Two nights

in a row we had fire alarms that went off.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you think, in your own mind, that there's been
any - in the distribution of literature here in Clearwater -

fraud or is there misrepresentation to the people of Clearwater?
MR. KELLEY: I have I'm not that familiar with what information

has been dispensed to the people of Clearwater.

MR. BERFIELD: In the form of books and literature?
MR. KELLEY: I always felt the literature.was pretty wishy-washy,
that it was just on the nature to appease the citizens of
Clearwater. See, Scientology -- this operation does not they
really don't want anything to do with citizens of Clearwater.
Their the people they're concerned with are the people that are
already Scientologists. That's what they're interested in. If
this were a regular Scientology organization, they'd be trying to
get the people of Clearwater into that building. As it is, they'd
just as soon Clearwater left them alone. That's always the
feeling we had when I was there. But if you must come in, we'll

be cordial

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and show you the chapel and that sort of thing. But their main
interest lies in public in people that are already

Scientologists.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you think health codes over there have been

violated?
MR. KELLEY: I am not that familiar with health codes. I know when

I was in the men's dormitory down there that 
was probably a violation, but that is no longer in existence, I

would guess.
MR. BERFIELD: You made a general statement that the people of
Clearwater should know about it. If you had some announcement,

what would you tell the people of Clearwater?
MR. KELLEY: if I was a citizen of Clearwater, I wouldn't want

them in my town because it's a it's a dangerous organization.

MR. BERFIELD: Dangerous in what respect?

MR. KELLEY: Dangerous to the minds of young people.
MR. BERFIELD: Do you think they could have an effect on my

children since they live here or just the ones coming in?
Mg. KELLEY: It's -- I would -- I really don't feel like they pose
that much of a threat to. the City of Clearwater, because they

really don't want to have any

2-269
thing to do with Clearwater. They really don't want to deal with

the people in Clearwater.
But if it's looked upon favorably here, maybe it will be looked
upon favorably elsewhere, see. And I don't think it should be
looked upon favorably in the slightest at all, whether itbe

Clearwater or anywhere.
MR. BERFIELD: But if I understand your statement, you would just
alert the people of Clearwater that they are a dangerous

organization?

MR. KELLEY: In my opinion, they are; in my opinion, they are.
MR. BERFIELD: You would -- you would or would not recommend

anybody going into Scientology?
MR. KELLEY: I would recommend against it with all my heart and

soul going into it and getting out of it.
That's---another thing that I would like known. The average
Scientologist doesn't know about some of these clandestine --
they don't know about any of these clandestine activities that --
I don't know if anyone's testified on it or not. But some of the
harrassment of Mr. -- former Mayor Cazares or the

Saint-Petersbu-rg Times writers.
They hear about that stuff, some of these harrassments, wire

taps, and things, and these the Scientolo

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gist doesn't believe it. They figure that's just noise to sell

papers, when, in fact, it's actually occurring.
The average Scientologist you see walking on the street probably
isn't a bad person, but he's misled by the organization, by the

policies of the organization.
MR. BERFIELD: Now, you say they're misled. Do you know this to,

be a fact?

MR. KELLEY: Yes.

MR. BERFIELD: Can you give us a for instance?

MR. KELLEY: Theone for instance I give is an

incident that happened to me in my home after I got out

of Scientology, an incident of harrassment, which I don't

know if it's -- that's a -

MR. LeCHER: That's very pertinent.

MR. KELLEY: When I was on leave well, before I
went on leave in Portland or Vancouver, Washington where my
brother lives, my brother called everyone from the FBI, to the
CIA on down to find out about Scientology. He kind of knew that
it wasn't all that it was cracked up to be, but he didn't really
know what to do about it until he called a lot of people -- a
bunch of people until he got in contact with someone who knew

about religious cults or cult activities.

So when I came home, he had a stack -- you know,

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he had a stack of papers, some affidavits and things like that.
And he proceeded to ask me a few questions to which I didn't have

logical answers for. So, I got out, and I decided to stay home.
But shortly the day after that, Bob and I we went to a business

meeting in Seattle and left his wife at home alone. 
When we came back, we found her sitting in the closet with a gun

in her hand terrified.
What had happened was is the day after Halloween, someone came to
the door wearing a Halloween mask, knocked on the door, she
opened -- it was a screen door. She opened up the door, they
asked if Casey Kelley was there. She said, "No," and
started to close the door on the people. They came into the
house, harrassed her, exposed themselves, threatened her, saying,
"You better leave Casey alone or it can get worse. Don't

call the cops." That sort of thing.
No one else in that area knew I was there. I had no friends
because I hadn't been there for three years. I had no friends in
that area that would do something, you know, off the wall like
that. My family didn't even know I was there, except -- with the
exception of my brother. He was the only one who knew I was at

his home.

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That made it very real to-me. That made it kind
of hit home. The average Scientologist does - not know about that
sort of thing taking place.. How can a religion do that if it's a

bonafide religion?

MR. LeCHER: We don't want to -

MR. KELLEY: That' s another -

MR. LeCHER: that's under religious beliefs and

MR.'KELLEY: That's right; I'm sorry.

MR. LeCHER: -- we don't want to hear about that.

MR. BERFIELD: Mayor, I could go on all evening
MR. LeCHER: So could I, but I think. we'd better switch around.
We do have a meeting -- another meeting to attend - it's
twenty-five to five - at five, and I have to go back to my
colleagues to my right to see if they have something they would

like to add.
MRS. GARVEY: I don't have a lot of questions to ask, but I can

start in the morning.
MR. LeCHER: Is there anything you'd like to say in conclusion,

sir?

MR. SHOEMAKER: Can you stay over, Mr. Kelley?

MA. KELLEY: Yes, I can.

MR. LeCHER: All right.

Why don't you stay overf then, and speak with Mr.

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Flynn. There may be something we want to ask you again. At this
stage, ladies and gentlemen, this particular meeting is
adjourned, and we'll reconvene with the regularly scheduled City

Commission meeting at five o'clock.
(whereupon, the hearing was adjourned until 9:00 a.m. on Friday,

May 7, 1982.)

C E R T I F I C A T I 0 N
I, Karen E. Rizman, a certified court reporter and Notary Public,
do hereby certify that the foregoing hearing transcript of the
City of Clearwater Commission Hearings Re: The Church of
Scientology, pages 4 through 273, is a true and accurate
transcription of my dictated tape recordings of the proceedings
taken at the Clearwater City Hall, Clearwater Florida, on

Thursday, May 6, 1982.

Karen E. Rizman

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