The next witness is Scott Mayer. SCOTT MAYER, a witness herein, having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of A 1 Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. LeCHER: Scott Mayer is it? MR. MAYER: Yes, sit. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Mayer, are you appearing here today to testify under oath voluntarily? MR. MAYER: Yes, I am. MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to Clearwater? MR. MAYER: Not at all. MR. LaCHE-'R: Do you have a lawsuit against the"Church". of Scientology MR. MAYER: No. MR. LeCHER: Does the "Church" of Scientology have a lawsuit against you? MR. MAYER: Yes. MR. LeCHER: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason? MR. MAYER: Not at all. MR. LeCHER: Would you like to make a statement? MR. MAYER: Yes, I would. I"find it a little bit difficult to distill twelve years of experience with the "Church", and I was a senior executive with the "Church" for approximately seven of 4-164 those years. So, to distill all of that information into a small period of time is kind of difficult. So, I prepared an outline of things that I would like to touch on and - in kind of a apid sequence - and after that's through, I'm willing to answer questions about any of these areas I touch on, if that's agreeable to you. MR. LeCHER: Yes, sir. Why don't you just follow your outline and we can ask you questions when you complete your outline. MR. MAYER: All right. I, basically, just wanted to let you know what I was doing. I worked on an on-call basis as a legal assistant and an administrative assistant for the City of Santa Monica in the City Attorney's Office and the EnvironmentaI.Services area, and I worked for -- also, as a consultant to the Internal Revenue Service in the U.S,. tax case that's been going on for some time now. And I worked with the senior counselor for the IRS during that tax case as consultant. The tax case I'm referring to is the time period 1968 through '71 in the U.S. Tax Court, Judge Sterrit presiding. It's the "Church" of Scientology against the Internal Revenue Service. A-1 9q In terms of getting into the Sea Organization, I entered the Sea Organization as a result of having a ship's master training program being offered to me. At one time, during the Viet Nam War, I was on a navigation team flagship in the Seventh Fleet and used to run air- craft carriers in and out of various harbors around the world, so I had quite a bit of ship experience when I was first exposed to Scientology. And I was offered a training program that would get me a master's certificate and went in on that basis, that and an educational program. What I want to do real quickly here is Just give you some sort of a background on what I did because I went all over the world for the "Church" for a long time, and, basically, on a trouble-shooting basis. And the main point that I think I really want to stress here bring out from an insider's point of view - is the overall administrative structure of the "Church". There's a great deal of publicity that's put out that your individual "church"es are corporate' bodies unto themselves with their own board of directors. And many of the boards of directors are on the planet that they publicize, and I worked with those directors. And they were just common, everyday staff members who signed 4-166 papers when it was necessary. So, I want to kind of go over the post areas that I've held in my job so that you can see what kind of a background I had. And it will probably make it a little bit easier for you to ask direct questions later. I have been at one time or another everything from a bodyguard to the now deceased Quentin Hubbard to the fleet captain for the Hubbard cruise ships on the west coast; I was an executive trouble-shooter for top management of the "Church"; I went on a few missions out of Clearwater under control of the "Church" of Scientology; and as an administrative director, in other words, as a command team. The basic command of the organization, for the entire "Church" of Scientology, when I left in 1966, was situated right here - MRS. GARVEY:' '76. MR. MAYER: excuse me -- was situated here in Clearwater, and had been on the Flagship Apollo. I was the ship's manager just prior to the move here, and part of my job was getting the ship ready to come in here. I did approximately eighteen successful missions for the senior top m anagement of the "Church" all over the world, i ncluding South Africa, Scotland, Manchester, Saint Hill in England.. I worked with Guardian's Office staff members. I worked with Jane Kember; I worked with Mo Budlong. I did an intelligence mission in Scotland for the "Church" while I was there. Jane Kember was the Guardian for the "Church" of Scientology, the head of the Guardian's Office below 'Mary Sue Hubbard. Mary Sue Hubbard was Commodore's Staff Guardian, which the Commordoe's Staff were h6 assistiantsits to the Commodor a, to Ron, in each of the divisional areas of the "Church": finance, dissemination, pubilc relations. Ron had a staff member, Commodore's Staff for each of those areas. Here in Clearwater, they did evaluations on a weekly basis for the entire worldwide network of the "Church". on the basis of the financial well-being of the various organizations around the world, missions - people who were top- management trained - would go out to various organizations to back the income back up if it was down. And your whole control or command information center forthose evaluations centered in Tampa after they moved here and then Flag was moved into the Fort Harrison Hotel. So, that's just a little kind of a background on the type of thing I did. I acted, primarily, as a trouble-shooter, and as things were going on, I was sent 4-168 out. The reason I left Scientology, by the way, was because of the things that I saw and participated in through my tenure with the "Church". It got to the point where I could no longer in my own mind justify what the "Church"'s policy in handling government agencies and society was; they were allegedly there to save. I could no longer reconcile that with the stated aims of the "Church". So, I resigned from the Sea Organization while on leave of absence in 1976, and I was subsequently expelled- -from the "Church". Part of the reason I wanted to come down here is that I had talked to Martin Cohen, who's the senior counselor for the IRS in the tax case, about a week or so ago. And I asked him if there was anything that I could, you know, do-for them while I was down there in terms of bringing back information. one of the things that he said to me is "You know, Scott, you've been a year at this now" - and I'm still on an on-call basis as a consultant. He said, "If I had realized what you were trying to tell me a year ago, we could have had a whole different tack in this case." And I have a -- and I have to admit to you that I've stayed pretty well in hiding for the last three 4-169 years, after I had an experience when my car was blown up on Christmas Eve in 1978 in front of a place where the "Church" thought I was staying, but I was living elsewhere. I had planted that information with the "Church" so that I'd know if they were trying to contact me. So, I've stayed pretty much in hiding. And I feel that these hearings are a chance for a little bit of light to come out on this so that people who are out in the field now -- and I know a lot of them. I'm small potatoes compared to what some others out in the field have done, things that they've done and experienced. And I would like very much for them to feel --free to be able to rejoin society and contribute to it, because that, in essence, was their main concern and reason for going into the "Church" in the first place: it was to help evolve the planet. There's a tendency to kind of group Scientologists together in terms of the reflection that the top management presented, but the average staff member is nothing more, as far as I'm concerned, than a psychological -- a psychopolitical dupe. The organization is structured in such a manner that everything is done on a neat basis, much like security in the military. So, all those -- and evaluations are done to keep various areas of the "Church" 4-170 from operating' n their own goals and purposes without really knowing what's going on in another area, although, there is an incredible grapevine that goes through the "Church" of Scientology. And I had an amusing incident about a week ago where I told a story to someone who was no longer in Scientology at a place in Los Angeles, California, and within a week, the story had gone across country through some Scientologists and back through my wife's -- a friend of my wife's and back to me. And the person that I talked to could no longer get any information about the "Church". But it took a week, just person-to-person, to get the story. I won't bother with the story. Getting back to my original point: I'm, basically, here today to try to impress you with the magnitude of the operation that you are facing. And I want-you to know in no uncertain terms that there is constant evaluation of this hearing going on and all of the things that have happened up to now. And right over here in the Combat Information Center - if that's where they've still got it - evaluations are being done on how to handle you. And I would like to see the tables turned for a change, because I don't think that they're going to be successful. The points that I would like to cover today are, basically: violations of clear cut -- of policy, such as registration and operation of maritime vessels, violations of those rules; transportation of funds in and out of the United States illegally; the violation of Federal Communications Regulations on the use of telex and radio communication equipment; transportation of personnel into and out of the country in violation of immigration laws; conspiracy to impede the IRS; the use of cruel and unusual punishment; and the attempt to defraud the United States Postal Service. And I have personal experience with the "Church" in all of those areas. Also, the ill treatment of children, parisishioners; living conditions -- I've travelled to almost all the organizations around the world, and Clearwater is just another step in the whole game. In accounting, you know, you talk about the normal course of business and business papers, things that are written out and done standardly pretty much on a day-to-day basis, and you don't deviate. Well, the "Church" has a standard operating basis, and it has an incredible -amount of policy that it can show you to tell you that it's not doing anything, but to someone who's really well trained in the policy, they can show you policy that makes it be all right. So, you continuously have a facade 4-172 being put forth to the public about what's -"Church" policy, but there is corollary -- corresponding policy that would make it all right to violate that policy. MR. CALDERBANK: 'Superceding policy? MR. MAYER: Yes. Well, it happens to be a crime in the "Church" to impede Scientology. And any staff member, you know, is severely punished in terms of the organization for impeding the progress or the expansion of Scientology. That's called High Crime Policy; the Fair Game Policv is part of that, which is allegedly cancelled, but I have never found a "Church" official that could show me the policy that cancelled it because it would have to be written by L. Ron Hubbard and, you know, specifically deny that policy, not a little caption printed down at the bottom. I printed those captions; I used to be Deputy Post Chief US in the early seventies. We put them on all the policy letters, which didn't cancel anything, certainly not the way an Ethics Officer would handle a person who's trying to impede the progress of the "Church". In terms of the Fair Game Policy itself, of course, I have no way of proving that the "Church" of Scientology blew up my car. I just have the knowledge within myself that that's where I told them I was and that's where it 4-173 got blown up. The fact that I didn't live there was to my credit, not theirs. In testifying before the U.S. Tax Court, the day after my address went on the record, I was sued by the "Church" by my ex-wife, who, I assume, is still in Scientology. The transcript hadn't even been published yet and they had my name and address and had a little kid come out and serve me papers. So, I was being sued, and I subsequently moved. I was under IRS protection at "'Che time, anyway; they stayed at the house. So, I moved and I've been moving ever since. They also pulled out my -- what's called a B I File, during the Scientology hearings. And what it basically is is a list of the things that I have done wrong in the past that came out of my confessional folder. I'm kind of getting a little out of sequence here in terms of what I wanted to talk to you about, but since the point has been brought out, there is a statement by the "Church" that confessional folders are not available to anybody but the auditor or the minister. And I can't tell you the number of folders that I looked at when I was going around in various organizations trying to get the income up, because I had to know what was going on with them in order to get them back on line and 4-174 get them doing their job. So, they brought out my B 1 File. I didn't even know it was that thick; I was rather flattered. I didn't know they could get that much stuff out of it. And there were a couple of files sitting right next to me with -in the courtroom that had my name on it, and they didn't have anything but my confessional folders and my B 1 File. The B 1 File comes out of the confessional folder. It's a time sequence - day/time sequence - list of all of the things they feel they can use. That's a very good point. This was during the second day of the trial in Los Angeles, California that the files appeared. MR. LeCHER: Which trial is that? MR. MAYER: This is the U.S. Tax Court trial. The approximate -time would have been around February of last year; it was about February-of last year. 1 .1 was -- about two days into it -- you have to realize that my function during the trial was -- when a Scientologist would get up on the stand and tell their version of what was going on in the "Church", whenever they would either directly lie or when they would present a policy letter that was supposed to tell what kind of what their policy was on the subject that was being 4-175 discussed, I would reach over to Mr. Cohen and I would direct him to the policy letter, the definitions that opposed that. So, I was not very popular with the "Church"'s attorney, because we were shooting holes in their stories. For the next couple of days- my folders arrived. And it was just nothing more than the standard attempt to intimidate me and let me know that they were going to try to make public what was in my confessional folders. Well, I would willingly let any one of you read them now, because there isn't anything that anybody's going to do to me anyway. I did what 1 did, I've been what I've been, and I've either learned from it or I haven't. So, I don't have any secrets that way. But it was an attempt to intimidate MR. LeCHER: Was that about when your car was blown up? MR. MAYER: No. That was 1978, and I had been moving around. In addition, several Guardian's Office members appeared at friends of mine's houses looking for me during the trial. In fact, the day before I was supposed to appear, I got a telephone call from a Karen Kyper, who had ;-- was originally out of the Minneapolis 1 4-176 organization and married to Bob Kyper, also a Guardian's Office staff member. She and another girl harassed.a.. friend of mine down at Laguna Beach; they were trying to get in touch with me before I went in and testified. The other areas that I would like to cover with you is how Scientology actually operates against the best interests of the community and, possibly, touch on some things that I think would help you in the incredible job you've got of making ordinances out of all this. So, I'd like to get back to the use of various telex equipment and so on and so forth. During the course of my tlme in Scientology, assenior executive, I was on call twenty-four hours a day. I could be on course in Los Angeles and be ordered into briefing because a set of Flag Mission orders had come in, ordering me to Austin, Texas or Boston or Florida or South Africa. And I'd have about fifteen or twenty minutes to get my stuff together and get into briefing. And, incidentally, one of my jobs when I first got into the upper level of the executive structure was briefing couriers on how to get things in and out of the country! I'm -- I probably have a hundred briefing tapes of people, couriers, that I briefed on how to get through the various immigration and customs officials, postal 4-177 officials, attempts to get things out of the country. I have been personally involved with people who have brought money in and out of the United States. My ex-wife and I smuggled two thousand dollars worth of rand apiece into this -- into Clearwater on our last mission from South Africa in 1976. MR. LeCHER: Two' housand dollars worth of what? MR. MAYER: Rand, krugerrand MR. LeCHER Oh. MR. MAYER: that's the name of the currency there. So, I'm familiar with the fact that it isn't Just an accident that some money gets out of the country. It's a regular, established procedure. There's an interesting thing about the procedure, too, because on the -- on the face of it it looks like everyday business activities and students coming in and out and so on and so forth. It's just exactly what it's supposed to look like. A Scientologist, for instance, in Los Angeles who was going to come to Clearwater to get some training would be taken into the-briefing room in Los Angeles and briefed on techniques of getting through various government agencies. They would even go so far as to clay demo; they would do clay demonstrations of the 4-178 ways they were going to do it: what if this happened. And I would grill them on all the possibility -- all the things that I'thought that they could run into, until I was certain that they could pass a security check, which is nothing more than a lie detector test. And they could go down and they could say that they understood their mission and they knew how to carry it out, and they had no other reason for going than to carry the mission out. This was routine. They were routinely checked on a lie detector to make sure they actually got what I was trying to tell them and, you know, didn't have any other reasons for doing it. We might send out twelve or fifteen people in a week to Clearwater and to other places earlier where Flag was. I was also at the time -- my cover was called Operations in the United States. I was directly under what was then the Continental Commander for the United States area. I handled external communications, telex transmissions, "Church" management across the United States on a supervisor level, and data evaluations, organization analysis. I would analyze things that were going on in various "church"es around the country and devise programs or plans that people could be sent out to raise the income level of the organization. 4-179 So, I might brief ten or twelve people a week to 90 out to Flag. And my External Communications Chief would have pre-wrapped, using two sets of wrappers -the first wrapper for whatever was going out would have the liaison office address on it for wherever the package was going to go through before it was mailed -- before it got to Flag, and the second one would be a phony address with a phony corporate name on it. And at 'one time -- when I first inherited the job, we maintained different phony companies that thing were shipped out of Los Angeles to varicus parts of the world. And all the packages that I sent had an outer wrapping and then an inner wrapping, so that when the courier successfully got out of the country, the wrapping could be taken off at the liaison office and then forwarded to the next checkpoint. The -- after the couriers were briefed by me, they were sent down to Finance where they would be given packages to courier to Flag. None of the couriers, because of the fact that the packages were pre-wrapped, knew who had the loot or who had what. And they were all instructed to act as though they were just corporate papers, and that was part of the standard, everyday briefing. 4-180 And people -- well, I was briefed on three missions here in Clearwater, and I took documents out of the country. I was sent out as a tourist to South Africa and England and Scotland from Clearwater and came back here and debriefed and then went out again. I have to say that in all kindness that when I -I stumbled across a little of an invoicing fixing project when I was at Flag. I was the ship's manager of the Apollo before it came into Florida. The "Church" was doing a little invoice changing project right underneath our office on the shim. And I got -- My wife and I got sent out on a mission because I didn't want to be here when the IRS got into -- when they got into Clearwater. So, I was probably not quite the perfect Scientologist in that respect. But I just couldn't see how-they could get away with it. As it turns out, they're not. MR. FLYNN: I'd just like to make a legal point to the Commission here. His background -- the relevance or importance of all his testimony is that the allegations in the report and the considerations of the Commission are that the goals and purposes and representations, policing of the "Church" are misrepresented to people here in Clearwater as to what they're paying for, what the nature of the organization is. And that these policies 4-181 with regard to what the nature of the organization is are uniform. And, therefore, important for your consideration is whether there are uniform policies that have been practiced for many years right up to the present time here in Clearwater, which are in direct contradiction to those represented policies as to the nature of the organization for which people are paying millions of dollars for here in Clearwater. So, from a legal point of view, all of this this money is extremely important. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Calderba- has a quick question MR. CALDERBANK: Yeah, I've got a legal point, Mr. Flynn. one of the newspaper reporters that's reporting on this legislative hearing continually refers to allegations of fact, your allegations, as these witnesses come up. For the benefit of the public and the viewing public, especially, at home, I'd like to have that, if it need be, corrected. Is this testimony and are these documents coming in before this City Commission -- are they as the paper says? And are they your allegations or -- what are they? What do we consider them? MR. FLYNN: Well, first of all, I haven't been 4-182 sworn under oath, yet; I'm not the one testifying. So, obviously, they're not mine. Secondly, perhaps, whoever you're quoting should go to law school to realize the significance of what's being done. MR. CALDERBANK: So, this -- it is evidence? MR. FLYNN: When the final report is prepared and the items of evidence that have been introduced so far and will be introduced the rest of the afternoon are presented to the Commission, together with the proposals for the ordinances, the significance of it will become quite plain. MR. CALDERBANK: So, they're not allegations, they're evidence? MR. FLYNN: That' s correct. MR. Le-CHER: That's a good point, Mr. Calderbank. Many people have read those allegations, and I'm glad it's cleared up and now understood. MR. CALDERBANK: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Mayer. MR. MAYER: I'd like to say something about what just transpired here. I have not heard any of the testimony that's gone on before me, except a couple of minutes of the last 4-183 person, as it was closing. I am not here to make any legal allegations in terms of the trial or anything like that. I am here to state to you in no uncertain terms that there is only one "Church" of Scientology; there's only ever been one "Church" of Scientology. Its entire management operation has been run from Ron Hubbard to Mary Sue Hubbard to the Guardian's Office to the Sea Organization, which is the arm of the "Church" that carries out on the administrative policy demands. It has always been that way. There has never been a board-of directors that has ever operated autonomously within the "Church" in any organization that I have ever been in, and I've been in almost all of them. One of the -- one of the persons that -- I did a mission -- for instance, Dennis Goggly, in Saint Hill, England, is allegedly one of the officers of the "Church" of Scientology. I did a mission with him; he was nothing but a clerk. We did a mission to Scotland to handle a guy that was messing up an organization there. And we used his confessional file and his B 1 file and knowledge of Communist activities on his part and involvement that he had had with a stolen goods ring to run him out of the area and stop interfering with the "Church" operations. Mr. Goggly had never, ever been in a position -- he 4-184 was kind of a laughable kind of a guy, as a matter of fact. There was no way that he was intellectually capable of being an officer of a worldwide organization, let alone the mother "Church" in England. MRS. GARVEY: Would you just -- would you have him define "mission," what he is talking about? MR.-MAYER: A mission -- a mission is a specific set of objectives. If I say I went on a mission, that means that there was a specific area that needed to be handled within one of the "church"es, and a step-by-step sequence of actions for rectifying that situation was laid out. And I was very thoroughly briefed on what to do and how to do it.. I could walk into the organization and remove the executive director, whether he was the president of the "church" in that state or not. I could walk in and show him my Mission's Orders and say, "You're on your way to Flag.- Be ready in a half hour." And there wouldn't be anybody that would give me any flap about it. Maybe I'm being strong in my language about it, but I'm trying to get across to you that a Sea Org. member on a Flag Mission order or an L. Ron Hubbard Personal Mission - which I have been on - has unlimited Ethics-power in the organization, unlimited ability to 4-185 walk in and remove the directors and send them packing to appear before what the "Church" calls a Committee of Evidence and have their confessional folders brought out, gone through, and charges made, and have them go to Committee on it. Nothing to it. That was just standard, everyday stuff., Any the "Church" is very fond of telling you that nobody has access to those confessionai -olders. -it's just not true. Any missionaire can order them. I used to order them brought into me so that I could see which People I wanted to take the time -- because it's a very lengthy process to do a lie detector test, especially, to the degree that the "Church" does: to get into their personal history, their personal -- it's just it's looking for crimes against the "Church" is what it's look- ing for. See, it's against policy to overtly impede the progress of the "Church". In fact, it's a crime not to practice Scientology; you impede the "Church" by not practicing it. So, it's very standard procedure to find out who's been doing what, bring them into the office, and let them know that you know what they've been doing, what's been going on. One of the techniques that's also used is to go: 4-186 "Listen, we know where there were some errors in your auditing. We know where there are some case problems here. Don't worry about it. As long as you produce, as long as your production is up" -- if a person was a registrar, their sales were up for the week -- "as long as you're doing that, don't worry. You'll get your auditing and we'll make everything all right for you." So, I just want to really get that point across to you that there is no separation in the of the various "church"es. If I -- in fact, before I left, I used to go into the data files, while being briefed for a mission, and I could pull out -- the "Church" is very fond of saying there's no connecting financial reports, yet, I could walk into the files and get a complete financial report on any organization -around the world. Of course, we stuck pretty much to what we were doing for that particular mission, what we were supposed to do there. But it's just simply not true that there are no AC 2 forms, which are the "Church"'s -- a breakdown of the gross income that comes into the "Church" are standardly sent every Thursday night to what's called Data Files so that, over that weekend, evaluations can be done by the Commodore's Staff. And if the income had dropped sufficiently in an area, a 4-187 couple of people like myself would be gotten together and sent out as a team to straighten the area out and get the income up again. MR. FLYNN: One more legal point: The significance of the record-keeping process of the "Church" of Scientology, of which the witness has just testified, one one little, part of - is extremely significant, and he could testify for weeks on that subject alone. It's very significant for this Commission because, if the "Church" of Scientology does produce any witnesses, you may rest assured that any subject matters that the Commission wishes to question them on -- there have been -extensive records kept on any of those subjects, as this witness is testifying now, pursuant to corporate policy, for many years. So, if there were records pertaining to any educational processing that's been going on at the Fort Harrison, clinics, patients being taken care of, people being taken care of, what they were treated for, children that were in the nursery, what type of education they've received, what type of grades they received, Guardian's Office operations, any of hundreds of varieties of issues, you can rest assured, as the witness will testify, that there has been an extensive record keeping about 4-188 that issue. And so, if a witness is brought onto the witness stand, he could be questioned in detail as to, for instance, if there was a school at the Fort Harrison, where the school was, what dates the school was run, who attended the school, and what records there are pertaining to all of those items. MR. MAYER: I think I can give you a real good example of how confessional folders are normally used. I was fired on a mission from Clearwater into Saint Hill, England. Flag had arrived at that point in time -- and this ties in with the misuse of telex to mislead government officials, too, because all of our missions were operated by Mr. Hubbard's son-in-law, who was sitting over here - or was sitting over here - at the Fort Harrison, by telex. There was daily telex transmission from wherever we were in the world into Clearwater into what was called the Action Bureau, where missions would be evaluated on a daily basis. As I said earlier, there were some problems in an organization in Scotland and in Manchester. I was for a short time on loan to the Guardian's Office Intelligence Bureau - in Saint Hill, England. I was shown a B 1 file, an intelligence file, that came from the preclear folders, or the confessional.folders, of the person we were going 4-189 to deal with, which dealt with sexual misconduct, orgies, and so and so forth about of an executive director in the Manchester organization. His wife had already come -- had split from him and had come down to Saint Hill to more or less turn herself in and get back into the good graces, and she had supplied a lot of information. We walked into the organization, and I sat the man down and told him what we knew and told him he was on his way to Saint Hill and that if he ever got back in the good graces of the "Church", he could probably have his organiza-i, back. The man was a medical doctor, who was also the one of the organizations. But I knew of at least a half a dozen people who knew about the information that was in his confessional folder. And it was used to remove him as the executive director and get him back down to the Saint Hill Org. for quote, unquote handling. Those operations were monitored via telex from the United States, from your city. Right here. There has never been a command line anywhere in Scientology that did not go through, either, the Guardian's Office or the Commodore's Staff to Ron and to Mary Sue. Wherever they have been, their aides have passed down their orders to the rest of the organization. When it 4-190 moved here to Clearwater, it was no exception; the whole operation was here. There were just literally thousands and thousands of files. There was a room bigger than this one filled with file cabinets with -- that they pulled off of the ship that contained the data of all of the missions that had been sent out from Flag. All that information was available right here in your city. I read it; I used it and did my job. I couldn't have done my job Without it. I had to know what was going on in the organizations in order to be able to handle the people we were having trouble with. MR. BERFIELD: Those files-were here in MR. MAYER: Here. MR. BERFIELD: In Clearwater? MR. MAYER: In the bank building right over here. That's where I was briefed. I would like to make - MR. FLYNN: The potential legal ramifications of much of this witness' testimony, as was Mr..Walters' testimony, although not known at the time, are broad ranging, and at a laterpoint in time they Ill be made plain. All of this testimony is extremely important with regard to those ordinances. 4-191 MR. MAYER: I have a photostatic copy of the original -- and by the way, the data that I'm going to talk to you about is available to the*counselor, so if you need copies of it, you're more than welcome to it. I may have to translate this somewhat for you, but -- because of the terminology; however, the terminology you can look it up in your own version of the Scientology dictionary, when you get the telex later on. But this telex was sent to the LRH's -- L. Ron Hubbard's personal secretary in the United States by L. Ron Hubbard's personal secretary on Flag, which was then-located in the Netherlands Antilles. This was in, Ibelieve, 1974 or-'75. The name of the person was Ken Erkhardt--; he's well known as the LRH personal secretary. with translations, it reads: "To the LRH personal secretary OB regarding the ship." At this time I had just inherited the flotilla of ships in the -- on the west coast, and I became the fleet captain. I'm qualified to run any tonnage in any ocean in any weather. So, I was a qualified skipper. And I had just taken it over. But the ships were in very poor shape. They were run by an unqualified personnel who didn't know what they were doing, didn't know how to maintain them, and they were placing the "Church" at risk, basically. 4-192 I had taken aircraft carriers through renovations while I was in the service. And I took the Apollo through one-, so- I.knew what I was doing. And I was appointed as the captain. However, there were.- the ship was sitting alongside the dock. You have to realize this ship cost -it was one hundred eighty-five feet long and it had a couple hundred.crew members on it, and it was costing the "Church" five thousand dollars a week to sit there. That was our budget per week, 'five thousand dollars. The "Church" wanted it out, cruising up and down the coast, doing recruiting, doing events, public events, where we could introduce people to Scientology and then usher them into the local organizations where the registrar would be signed up for courses. The telex reads: "Leave the threat of the Rehabilitation Project Forces hanging over them for now." And this was with regard to the staff, the ship's officers that I inherited when I took on the post: the Public Officer, the Finance Officer, the Chief Officer. These are people who had not, quote, unquote, made it so far; it was costing a lot of money. It says: "Leave the threat of the Rehabilitation Project Forces hanging over them for now. Have their confessional folders gone through, listing all crimes 4-193 found. Crimes must be verified and not auditor errors, and the criminals with the greatest treasonous actions put on the Rehabilitation Project Forcess. The remainder are told that they have one more chance to come clean and go straight. Have their folders summarized and programmed for vital corrections and then a security checking. If there are no more changes, they go to the Rehabilitation Project Forces. "Regardless of any auditing or security checking, those not going to the RPF are to get on the ball and pull their weight and complete the ship's programs by the deadline already given. There's going to be no Captain Bill to reward you. They make it or they don't. And if they haven't woken up to that, wake them up. "Love, Erk." Ken Erkhardt. Like the line in their own telex form, they ordered people to go into confessional folders. They make it obvious. MR. FLYNN: For the record, we will be presenting numerous, actual telex operations and operations with confessional folders on the overhead projector at the appropriate time. Again, the significance of that issue -- where, probably, per year, thousands, perhaps, tens of thousands 4-194 numbers unknown by this Commission at this point - are coming to your city and paying millions of dollars, believing that all of that information that is being given to this organization is highly confidential is of obvious legal significance. MR.. MAYER: The next point that I'd like to talk about in relation to what was just gone over is,the "Church"'s free use of telex lines and confessional folders and breaking and entry in order to gain an advantage in the community. In 1971, when I was running operations for the "Church", I was involved with a man whose name I don't care to give now unless it's all right with you. Okay. His name was Bill Foster. One of the people that he-worked with on that operation is here today so he could be called up to corroborate what I'm going to say to you. I received a call from Bill Foster, while in New York. I had been sent from the Apollo, which was operating in the Antilles at the time, to New York with my wife to operate the eastern seaboard for the "Church" on a management mission. Mr. Foster had allegedly been expelled a couple of years earlier for misconduct or something in Boston. 4-195 I received a call from Bill Foster, and he came into the org. -- we had been very close friends. And he came in with an incredible story. He said that he had, in actual fact, been operating the Guardian's Office out of Boston and Washington and involved in a break -- breaking and entering team. His cover had been blown because one of the operatives had been compromised - at the time I didn't know who that was - and the "Church" was going to leave hLrn high and dry. In other words, they were not going to acknowledge the --fact that he had been working for them. They were upholding the story that he had been expelled and was doing it on his own. He came to me because, at that time, Iwas the senior executive authority on the eastern seaboard for the "Church" and in direct contact with Flag management. My mission was being run by telex on a daily basis. When he asked me if I could assist him, I called the person who was then in charge of the Guardian's Office in Boston - this is Bob Raimer, who had also been a friend of mine, I had worked with him on a mission some years earlier in Boston - and I said: "Look it, Foster's here, this is what he told me. Is it true? Has he been working for you in the field?" And he said, "Yeah. Yeah, he has." 4-196 And I said, "Well, just on the basis of misuse of policy in handling the man, I thought that I could help him out with Flag management." And I started to get a lot of heat down by telex lines about him and what he had done and so on and so forth. So, I got him out of the country; I sent him to a mission in Canada, where, up to a few months ago, he was still residing, not being willing to come back to the United States, I suppose, until the statute of limitations runs out on his activities. MR. FLYNN: Some more detailed evidence pertaining to that particular subject will also be introduced later time. The legal significance of that testimony may relate to the disowning of the policies of the corporation to disown information or responsibility for the actions of its operatives, such as Mary Sue Hubbard and the other top ten people who have just been convicted. And the significance for this city is the fact that the corporation is now disowning responsibility of those people for any of the things that took place here in Clearwater or around the world. And that disowning of responsibility process began last summer and is taking place right up to the present time. The inferences that could be drawn from the testimony of this witness regarding that policy to disown are becoming apparent on their 4-197 f ace. MR. MAYER: To elaborate on that even further, I'm. not here to complain about what the "Church" has done to me. Understand that. I'm here to really impress upon you what you're actually dealing with, the magnitude of what you're dealing with. In 1971, we had -- and, of course, this ties into the treatment of children, too, actually, because, in 1971, we had a base in Mexico, and it had been put there as a training camp for Sea Org. members, missioners, and a place to out what was called the Cadet Org., the children's org. Children were routinely transported from Los Angeles to the Mexican base and berthed and housed there under the care of various base personnel so that their mothers and fathers could get on with their business within the "Church". A lot of them had staff positions and senior executive positions in the. "Church" in Los Angeles. We were having a great deal of problems at that time with the city officials. I don't know what the laws are here in Florida, but in Los Angeles, 1.1 person in a one-bedrooom apartment, excluding kitchens and bathrooms, is considered overcrowded, anything over that. Of course, the "Church" doesn't normally have bathrooms and kitchens 4-198 in this little room, so quite frequently - in fact, almost all the time - those rooms are incredibly overcrowded. So that it was a place to get kids out of the country and out of the way of production. Mexico, of course, is -- had at that time -- ten years ago is still pretty long -- in fact, there were bandit groups roaming the hills. And they used to come down to the base. The base fell under my sphere of responsibility as an operating project; I was in charge of operations. Bandits were coming in at night and they were stealing grain and they were stealing saddles and whatever wasn't tied down, they could get away with, and they were causing a lot of commotion. And I was asked to go down with another ex-member of the "Church", whose name I don't care to give you because he's still around -- we were asked to go down there and eliminate that. That person and myself have had extensive intelligence and, I think, counterintelligence activities in the armed forces. The person at that time had free access -- in fact, was dealing in arms at the time and was routinely used by the "Church" on various Guardian' operations. We were asked to go down and did go -- actually, went into briefing to go down and set up a little infra 4-199 red sniper scope in the middle of the night and make sure the bandits didn't bother us anymore. Fortunately, for me, the lady -- one of the ladie's who was managing the children's org. at the time' hot one of the bandits I believe it was the leader - through the front door when they were trying to break in and they dispersed and the mission was subsequently called off. I -just want to get across to you that, at, that in time with the "Church", that sort of thing- -- that they were impeding Scientology'. They were nothing but bandits and had to he gotten out of the way. And that was the way it went. I don't know what else to tell you about it. You can ask questions about it if you'd like. All I can say is at the' time I was willing to go. I don't necessarily feel good about that now, but at the time I didn't think of it. I think, since I've already mentioned children -I have, in addition -- I could say without any reservation that the food, the supervision of children, the education of children, in every organization that I have ever been in in the "Church", has been terrible. I got into an incredible fire fight with a person named Fran Broker, who was in charge at that time of financing 4-200 the various operations in - MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Mayer MR. MAYER: Los Angeles. MR. SHOEMAKER: what do you mean by "fire fight"? MR. MAYER: Well, I was trying to get money for the base and she had the power of the pen, all right? And I had to convince -- I had to make a plea: for monies to adequately feed and house the children. And the prob- lem that I had it's a kind of a funny story in a way, but at the time for me it was really serious. The caretaker used to come up from Mexico on a weekly basis to get money to bring back down for day today purchasing in Mexico because of the price difference. The area was incredibly infested with scorpions, snakes, tarantulas, spiders. The area around the base house was had a lot of shrubbery up against the house, and t he place had never really been put -- you know, made habitable. The man brought me up a jar full of scorpions, tarantulas, and later he said, "Look it, we've got to have money to clear this brush out, so these kids -- if one of these kids gets bit, you know, you and I are the ones that are going to be in trouble because we're responsible for the area. The rest of the "Church" is going 4-201 take the rap of getting us killed down here." So, I brought -- I took the car and I brought it into the woman and I plopped it down on her desk, and I said, "Here they are. What I've told you is true, and I'm laying it on you. I'm not going to be responsible anymore for the care of those children if you are going to deny me the funds to get the tools necessary to clean around the house and to take a'll the brush and stuff away and make it safe for them. " And I eventually got the money, by the way, but I was no longer in -- and it was a little hard for me. That persisted wherever I went.. Stafff membe-s were always ill-fed, ill-clothed. I had a personal situation where I had an abcess in my tooth and I was being audited for it. I'm ready to go to the dentist, and I was being audited for it, And I spent about a week,week and-ahalf, doing various auditing assists - what they call touch-assists - to get rid of the pain and get me out of it. And, finally, it just -- I was just delirious and - well, there wasn't any money for the medical is what it boiled down to. They didn't have the money to take me to the dentist, so they were trying to handle it with Scientology. I went to the dentist, and this was in San Pedro 4-202 although, I don't recall the name of the dentist, the records are certainly still available if it came to that - he told me I had just made it. It was abcessing and it was, you know, up into my gums and stuff, and if it had been another day or so, I wouldn't be here to talk to you. You wanted to know about conditions here in Florida, in your own city. When I first came back from -- well, my last mission to South Africa, when I came back, I was very, very disgruntled with the "Church"'s operations. I refused to t ake posting because it just was not within my sense of ethics. So, I went back to what was my original job, which was management. And the person that I had trained to replace me, when I went off on mission, was now the manager for the Fort Harrison. His name will probably come back to me: Nick s omething. Anyway, he had -- I had been his senior, and came back and I said, "Look, I'm fighting this posting. Until it's handled, I don't want to do anything except do what the policy says, which is I have a right to my old job back when I come off of a mission. But I don't want to take your job, so just put me to work and, if you'-re willing to fight for me as a staff member, well, I'm not going anywhere." 4-203 So, for several weeks before I managed to get out of Clearwater and go back to Los Angeles on a leave of absence, I set up bunk beds in the Fort Harrison Hotel up to the ceiling and just packed them in like rats. MR. HATCHETT: You mean, people. MR. MAYER: People. There were rooms that were that were smaller than the division of this area here that had bunks in them five high and clothes strewn all over, sea bags -full of clothes just -- in fact, my wife and I were stuck in a room that was already occupied by somebody because they were out on another assignment for a couple of days, and we had to -- we had to coexist with all of their things in the room in crowded conditions. We didn't even have a place to hang our clothes. And this is routine. I'm not talking about something that happens once in a while. -When I was in charge of operations in Los Angeles, I used to drill the staff members -- we very often had people that were sympathetic to the "Church" that would apprise us of inspections that were going to take place. And when we'd get a forewarning of it, we had drills set up to pull the bunk beds out, move the dressers out, ship them over to one of the other houses until the inspection 4-204 was over, and then bring them back and pack them back in again. MR. BERFIELD: That was here in Clearwater? MR. MAYER: No. I didn't do the drilling here in Clearwater. But that is part of one of the regular drills that the Sea Organization has on what is called station it's naval terminology. They have drills on repelling enemy mortars. Sea Org. members are routinely trained on how to do this. So, if, 'for instance, security here in the Fort Harrison was apprised that there was going to be an inspection, there'd be more Guardian's Office personnel running round than you could think of making sure that everybody got all the evidence out of sight. It would be swept clean before anybody got there. And then, a couple of Guardian's Office staff members would be on the inspection to feed them false data, maybe give them reports of their own about the conditions, and just generally distract them from carrying out their duties. And this is not something that happens just once in a while. It's a drilled thing; it's a training process. 'It's a common, everyday, garden variety training drill. I think -- I'm open right now for anything you want 4-205 to ask about it. I do have some other things, but I think it would probably be MR. LeCHER: All right. I'll start out with a few questions and then turn it over to my colleagues. I think you're probably the best one to answer this question that I've asked about two others: Why Clearwater? And why the United "Church"es of Florida, and why not Tampa, Brooksville, or Miami? And why not Scientology? The climate's not right? MR. MAYER: Yes, in more than one sense of the word And you're talking about when you're talking about setting up a base where Ron Hubbard might actually come', you're talking about an area that is very, very heavily evaluated in every sense of the word. who's in local offices? What have they done? And I want you to know that every single person on the City Council was very, very thoroughly -- their background was very, very thoroughly checked to see if there was any stuff in the woodwork that could be used against you. I happen to know the man that purchased the "Church" grounds here in Clearwater at the time. His name was Ron Strauss. He was a musician on Flag in the band when he was selected for the mission and said he would do it. 4-206 These evaluations, of course, were done -- they're all done in advance. All this stuff was done in advance. I was personally sent out on a mission with a man by the name of Commander Bob Young, by Ron Hubbard, to find a base for the Apollo. It was only a rumor, but it was pretty solid to everybody that was on the ship at the time, that Mary Sue had had enough of running around on Ron's rusty old yachts and wanted a nice place where, you know, she could have herself a little chicken farm or something. It didn't, of course, work out that way. I ran all over the Caribbean with another man looking for locations. We went into the places on a cover story. The cover story was, basically, that Operation Transport Corporation, which is now and never has been anything else but the "Church" of Scientology, was going to set up a training center where they could do their business management consulting out of. There was another operation going on at the time called Universal Media Organization, which was a promo- tional organization: television shows,.slide shows. We did some work for one of the government officials on Aruba, believe it was; we did a project for them. This was all laying a cover so that, when the "Church" came in, all the questions thatcould be asked and all the 4-207 investigations that could be done to discourage them from coming in had been done on an organization that really didn't exist anyway, except as a facade to waste your time on. By the time you'd finished running around trying to sort all of that stuff, then, we were already here, if I remember correctly. MR. LeCHER: Well, I remember the story in 1975, when you arrived, and I first was in office -- but the story I had was that you bought the Fort Harrison for a "religious" retreat for retired ministers. MR. MAYER: Yes. Well, the actual -fact of the matter is what we were-trying to do at that time -- Bob Young and myself, Bill Azzeroni I don't know where he is now - we were the ones that and Ron's personal secretary or assistant at the time; her name was Liz Ausley. We conceived the idea of the media organization in order to get Ron back out into the public. We all felt at this time that he get out in the public. The idea was -- and I used to read the scripts. We'd write the scripts for what was going to go on and we were shooting scenes that were going to go on, and they would go through this to Ron and/or Mary Sue and be approved, the actions. And the idea was to get Ron out here in the community as a "religious" leader. In fact, I 4-208 believe he did a couple of radio shows with some local Baptist ministers when he first came in here. And the whole idea was, of course, to use the opinion leader policy of the "Church", which is to get a trained Scientologist alongside of someone -- not necessarily the governmental head of an agent, but who he listens to. Who do you go to when you have -- when you need advice, as a counsel? You have people that you you respect their advice Well, it's a little too obvious to put a trained Scientologist in the mayor's office. Well, if you can find somebody that the mayor talks to And get a trained Scientologist next to him, boy, you're in good shape. You can just feed anything you want to him along that line. And I assure you that's done every day. I personally brought sixty people up to the governor's campaign in, I think it was, 1974. I was asked by the Guardian's Office to provide Rehabilitation Project Force personnel to back one of the gubernatorial candidates in California. He lost, by the way, but, nonetheless, I had them up there, and I got a commendation for it - I still have it, by the way - for my actions in bringing Scientology into more good favor in the State of California. 4-209 And they stuffed flyers and they handed out flyers and brought people in to be talked to. These were the criminals of Scientology. MR. LeCHER: Why Clearwater? Why not Tampa? Why was Clearwater the right size, under a hundred thousand people? Was Tampa too big or was, say, Brooksville too small or -- MR. MAYER: Politics. The reason -- we found some beautiful locations for the base in the Netherlands Antilles and ran smack into a man who was In the Guardian's Office at the time j-,7 he St- 7 IS. I don't know L, -L..L.1. His name was Brian Rubenick. And Brian was always a little paranoid. But he was a Guardian's Office personnel, and he was very, very afraid of the political situation in the Caribbean. At the time as I recall,--they were storing a lot of oil over there while we were having a warm winter and didn't need it here.' So, there was a lot of political things going on in that area to make sure that nobody knew that there was more oil and gas around than anybody could possibly have dreamed of. So the political situation in every area was looked at very, very closely and evaluated. You had a situation here at that time, as I recall, 4-211 series. I don't remember the last couple of numbers on it. But this was probably a fifteen- or twenty-page set of step- by-step things that had to be done before the Guardian's Office would approve the move, all right? So, you didn't have the "Church" just willy-nilly walk in here and set down. All of these things were very carefully evaluated long before they went into Daytona and started to get into trouble there. As far as I'm concerned, from what I've been able to piece together from the people that I knew that were involved in it., this was just a politically -- a nice place. MR. LeCHER: A nice town. Before we get on to other questions: You said that we are having a hearing against the "Church" of Scientology, and they are back in the office trying to figure out how to handle us. How do you think they may handle us? What should I be aware of? What should my colleagues up on this - MR. MAYER: Well, I'll tell you, l sure wouldn't want to have any skeletons in my closet; I'll be very frank with you. MR LeCHER: Now, you tell me. MR. BERFIELD: Mayor, may I ask one question? MR. MAYER: I -- they're not of any value once 4-211 series. I don't remember the last couple of numbers on it. But this was probably a fifteen- or twenty-page set of step- by-step things that had to be done before the Guardian's Office would approve the move all right? So, you didn't have the "Church" just willy-nilly walk in here and set down. All of these things were very carefully evaluated long before they went into Daytona and started to get into trouble there. As far as I'm concerned, from what I've been able to piece together from the people that I knew that were involved in it, this was just a politically -- a nice place. MR. LeCliER: A nice town. Before we get on to other questions: You said that we are having a hearing against the "Church" of Scientology, and they are back in the office trying to figure out how to handle us. How do you think they may handle us? What should I be aware of? What should my colleagues up on this - MR. MAYER: Well, I'll tell you, I sure wouldn't want to have any skeletons in my closet; I'll be very frank with you. MR LeCHER: Now, you tell me. MR. BERFIELD: Mayor, may I ask one question? MR. MAYER: I -- they're not of any value once 4-212 they're -- once they've been used. MR. BERFIELD: If you got a phone call in the morning and the phone call consisted of: "I heard you talking with a gentleman before. I know you have two daughters and they go to such and such a school," would you consider that a threat, if the facts in the case were the truth? MR. MAYER: In my case, it certainly would be. It's MR. BERFIELD: If that ohone call came to me, would you take that phone call seriously? MR. MAYER: Oh, sure. In fact, if -- it would already have gone past the point where you should have' been doing something about it. MR. BERFIELD: You mean, if you were me MR. M, kYER: It's hard to -- MR. BERFIELD: If you were me, you would not be sitting here, you would be with your family? MR. MAYER: You have been classified as an active enemy of the "Church". There are passive and active enemies, and this is part of their GO intelligence train- ing. And I've done their Intelligence PR course. I've been trained how to handle you guys if I wanted to if you were attacking me. In other words, I've been trained 4-213 to present the "Church"'s position in a favorable manner. I've been trained to take everything that you say and turn it around against you, if that's what I needed to do. In your particular case, they would have already classified you as an active enemy. You would have done something that impeded the expansion or the progress of Scientology, and you would have gone from somebody who was just in disagreement with the "Church" or was interested in finding out what it was all about into somebody who was doing something about it. you became active, then, you go under I the area of observance of GO Intelligence. That's when they start gathering the data, when you become active. I didn't get sued until I testified. As long as I hid for three-years after I got out - and the IRS didn't know where I was and nobody else - nobody botilered me. But the IRS found me, and I agreed to work with them. And as soon as I did, the day after I put my testimony on the record - it hadn't even been released yet - MR. LeCHER: Well, Mr. Berfield is obviously - MR. MAYER: they were right on my doorstep. MR. LeCHER: concerned about the threats he has had. I have -- well, unfortunately, I no longer live 4-214 with my family, but I'm concerned about that, too. That's why I'm asking you, as a person who has done these things, what -- how they handle -- how may we expect to be handled? MR. MAYER: Well, a friend of mine's daughter a week ago turned her in to the "Church" of Scientology for dealing with me and a bunch of other Scientologists who had gotten together outside of the, you know, the authority of the "Church" to discuss the things with me that they didn't like tha't were going on in the "Church". Her daughter is a Sea Org. member and went straight into the "Church" and turned her in for the activities, and they pulled her in and grilled her. In fact, she has a lot of money still with the "Church", so they sent a couple of registrars along to try to get her to go back in here to Clearwater and get her, quote, unquote, case handled so that she would be no longer in disagreement with the "Church". That's; a standard qualifications; action of the Qual Division. Anybody that becomes disaffected with the "Church", their confessional folders are immediately gone through in an attempt to get them back in session, being audited to come back on line. MR. LeCHER: A standard procedure, then, would be 4-215 to, in order to stop these hearings -- would have been to find skeletons in the closets of the five Commissioners and, possibly, the attorney behind it. Would that be the normal way of MR. MAYER: That MR. LeCHER: -- having some point of influence to stop these hearings before they started? MR. MAYER: If you want to know what the "Church" of Scientology will do to you, read The Art of War by Lao Tzu, because that's one of the required books on the training manual for an intelligence operative. MR. FLYNN: The whole -- part of all the intelli.gence operations, drills and policies, as I mentioned at the beginning and a number of times, will all be put into evidence. Some already have, but there are hundreds more to put into evidence. MR. LeCHER: Well, I've alerted my family just to watch themselves and Mr. Berfield has alerted his family, and I'm sure the other Commissioners have done the same, letting them know t hat I know if anything does happen. MR. MAYER: Sir, if I may, one of the points that Counsel has just reminded me of that I wanted to bring up was that: While I was on leave of absence from the "Church" in Los Angeles, I was approached by a Guardian's 4-216 staff member. My wife at the time, Riva Bittelman, had parents that lived in Miami; her father had been a successful supermarket owner. They were very well known and thought of in the Jewish community. We were asked if we would consider infiltrating all the local charities as fund raisers, using the father's, you know, influence in the community to get -- you know, go through the family ties, the lines. And what we were supposed to do was infiltrate the charities, do a lot of good fund-raising things, bring some money in, and at the same time, you know, impress the local charities with our competence and gradually gain some sort of control over them. It was decided about three weeks after we were approached that, because we were so well known as Scientologists around -- we had travelled extensively for fourteen months for the "Church"'s top management, bailing orgs.. out of financial trouble. They decided that we were too well known, so they were going to use somebody else to do it. I'd check your local charities. You may have somebody operating in there like I was asked to do.. MR. LeCHER: Okay. Let's get on a little different track, then. 4-217 You said that you could pass a lie detector test;. you were trained to pass a lie detector test. I you're that well trained, how can you -- could you also, then, pass an E-Meter test? MR. MAYER: That -- that's the same thing. MR. LeCHER: I know that MR. MAYER: An EMeter MR. LeCHER: You were -- you were -- you trained people to lie -- MR. MAYER: Yeah. MR. LeCHER: to lie so convincingly and so convincingiy well that you could pass a lie detector test. MR. MAYER: No. That they could pass a lie detector test o n whether they could do it or not. MR. SHOEMAKER: Oh. MR. HA-TCHETT: Oh. MR. MAYER: And they couldn't go out until they'd do it'. That's how well trained they were. They knew in no uncertain terms, when they left, that they could get through any customs officials and complete their mission. That's with officials -- immigration officials, authorities, porters, whatever. MR. LeCHER: They knew their -- MR. MAYER: Job cold, so cold that you Could put 4-218 them on a lie detector and they were reading. When I say "a reading," I mean, the lie detector test would show that they were not lying when they said they could do it. MR. LeCHER: Then, how could you possibly fail the E-Meter test when you were put back on that, like, for auditing? MR. MAYER: Well, if you had something that you had done against the "Church" and had never told anybody about it, that would read on the lie detector. It's an area that you MR. LeCHER: You're taught to lie for specific reasons for a job or a mission? MR. MAYER: Okay. There is a difference between active use of Scientology intelligence technology and the use of the E-Meter to find out whether or not a person's doing what they're supposed to be doing. In one form you have, like, a security check when somebody goes into a company. Often -'- now companies like Radio Shack, Tandy Corporation, now uses a lie detector test with regard to the application form that you fill out for employment. So, it's on that order of magnitude. A staff member could be brought in at any time. 4-219 HCO - Hubbard Communications Office - had the right to call in any staff member and put them on a Meter and find out whether they had been doing their job, whether they had been using Scientology standardly or not, and if they failed, take whatever measures necessary to correct that. On the other hand, you had training somebody so well that vou knew that they could do their job, and to verify that they themselves 'Knew that, put them on a lie detector and if they didn't feel a hundred percent con- fidlent, It would read The -- I can't begin to tell you how many hours` some of these people people spend. I used to I'm sure you've all heard the-term "tone scale," emotional tone scale. Maybe you -- oh, you haven't gotten into that. Well, basically, what it is is it's a set of techniques where you can bring somebody emotionally up or emotionally down by being able to ascertain what they're basically not confronting in life, what they're not willing to face, take responsibility for. And I used to drill with flash cards with another Guardian's Office staff member on being able to move somebody involuntarily up and down that scale by simply spotting where they were really coming from in terms of their ability to confront life. 4-220 Those drills are constantly run on Scientology people that deal in public lines. They're done on auditors and they're done on Go intelligence personnel, only they're modified with- Go intelligence personnel for situations like a reporter: "Is a reporter bugging you, " to just, you know, take him up and take him down and just confuse the hell out of him and get him out of your hair. It's not all that hard to do. I've - MRS. GARVEY: If you're having a problem with a reporter? MR. MAYER: And, listen, I've worked in intelligence, Naval Intelligence, and it's not technology that's unknown in this world. It's just modified for the use of the "Church". It's not something that L. Ron Hubbard just made up on his own; it's standard intelligence procedure, standard brainwashing technique. MR.-LeCHER: When you took money out of the country in phony packages, did you take it out in cash? MR. MAYER: The incident the biggest incident that I know of personally was a fifty thousand-dollar cash shipment that went to Flag when Alex Sibersky was called 'to Flag in 1971. There are other people that I know of that took it back and forth -- this is a situation where I was in the office and he said, "Yeah, I'm going to 4-221 bring Ron fifty thousand bucks." I think we made five hundred thousand dollars that week in gross income. In fact, I don't know whether you know it or not, but, when I left Scientology, the "Church" of Scientology in Clearwater, Florida was -- had a gross income of five hundred to seven hundred thousand dollars a week. And I know you people didn't see any of that money. MR. LeCHER: Neither did the tax collector. How much of a skimming do you think in Clearwater? MR. MAYER: Well, you know, the policy of the -- of LRH is to try to run an organization on twentyfive- Percent or less of the gross income. just how successful they are now or anything, I don't know. But I know a lot of staff members that ate potatoes and beans while there was money being shipped off to the Guardian's Defense Fund to handle the next enemy that they had created for covert operations. MR. LeCHER: So that's -- if you made a million dollars, then, you would be a month -- a week, you would be spending twenty-five -- two hundred and fifty thousand dollars here, and the rest would go to L. Ron? MR'. MAYER: it would be filtered probably through Worldwide, when Flag was not here in Clearwater, of course. Well, during the course of the IRS, probably there 4-222 were some twenty some -- at one time thirty some bank accounts in other countries where money could be sent to. That came up in the IRS. At the time we did that trial last year, they still had about twenty accounts that were active, still had money in them. MR. LeCHER: Well, the previous witness said about ten percent is taken off the top. MR. MAYER: That's just for the Guardian's Defense Fund; that combats the kind of hearings we're having right now. MR. LeCHER: I'm who gets to start off again, Mrs. Garvey? MRS. GARVEY: I don't know where to start. I want to keep him MR. MAYER: I have to catch a plane at fivethirty, so that's all the time I've got. I wish I - MR. CALDERBANK: You hadn't said that? MRS. GARVEY: Let me first start on his background or the outline. What -- one on here was see check, operation see check; underneath-it's got E-Meter, lie detector.- MR. MAYER: It probably should be sec check, not see check; that's a typographical error. MR. HATCHETT: Security. 4-223 MRS. GARVEY: Okay. MR. MAYER: Security check. MRS. GARVEY: Okay. LA officer with a security check. Then, you go down, there's one under large amounts of cash out of the United States: i nflat-ing OTC expenses What are -- what's OTC? MR. MAYER: Well, OTC was what 'Flaq was outside of this country. When I first joined the Sea Organization, I thought I was joining the "Church" of Scientology Sea Organization to go through a ship's master training program. When I went into my initial training, the first thing I got was the policy letters or Flag orders that told me what I had actually done was sign a contract with a corporation called Operation Transport Corporation. In the 1970's there was another corporation which had been set up called Operation Transport Services, which allegedly was another corporation that provided management services and facilities, the lease of ships, to the Sea Organization. I t was all one thing, OTC, OTS, Sea Organization, all the same animals. In fact, we had to take people who were new to Scientology that were going to Flag, and that was part of 4-224 my briefing job -- was to brief them on the fact that they were really OTC when they got out of this country, and there was nothing anywhere in writing that could be used t o prove otherwise. OTC was always run by L. Ron Hubbard and always has been. MR. FLYNN: I might note for the record at this point, this particular item has legal significance for a logical reason, which will become significant for logical reasons at a later point in time. It ha s personal significance for Mr. Meister, because the "Church" of Scientology of California, which owned all buildings -- the "Church" of Scientology of California, which is a corporate entity, which owned all of the buildings-in Clearwater, Florida until last December 13th, wrote a letter to Mr. Meister involving the situation of the death of his daughter under their letterhead of the corporate entity. They say, "I'm sure you understand that the ship's company, an independent Panamanian agency, is under no obligations to the "Church" of Scientology of California to provide information that it might deem goes beyond the scope of a reasonable inquiry by bereaved parents." The independent Panamanian agency of the ship's company is the operation Transport Corporation, of which 4-225 the witness just referred. MRS. GARVEY: Well, under the next one: Buildings of the "Church" of Scientology of Clearwater - I mean, you'd -- from the operation of OTC, you'd build a "church"? MR. MAYER: Let me explain this to you. I have a letter, as a matter of -fact, on OTC letterhead that introduces me as the captain on one of the vessels. it was written by Lieutenant Commander Bob Young, who was the US Fleet Captain at the time. He was a Sea Org. Scientology staff member . But he was also, in terms of this letterhead, the US Fleet Captain for the Board of Directors of OTC, Limited, Panama. I have it. I have the original with the seal, the OTC seal on it, too. What would happen is the "Church" -- every -- either twice or once a month, they would do what was called financial planning. At that point in time the people that were on the Flagship would requisition money to ship's operation, all right? I don't know if any of you have the remotest idea how much it costs to keep a ship going. But it's incredibly easy to have -- in a ship the size of the Apollo, which had about four hundred crew members on it - it was, roughly, about three hundred fifty