4-225 the witness just referred. MRS. GARVEY: Well, under the next one: Buildings of the Church of Scientology of Clearwater -;.- I-mean, you'd -- from the operation of OTC, you'd build a church? MR. MAYER: Let me explain this to you. I have a letter, as a matter of -fact, on OTC letterhead that introduces me as the captain on one of the vessels. it was written by Lieutenant Commander Bob Young, who was the US Fleet Captain at the time. He was a Sea Org. Scintology staff member*. But he was also, in terms of this letterhead, the US Fleet Captain for the Board of Directors of OTC, Limited, Panama. I have it. I have the original with the seal, the OTC seal on it, too. What would happen is the Church -- every -- either twice or once a month, they would do what was called financial planning. At that point in time the people that were on the Flagship would requisition money to ship's operation, all right? I don't know if any of you have the remotest idea how much it costs to keep a ship going. But it's incredibly easy to have -- in a ship the size of the Apollo, which had about four hundred crew members on it - it was, roughly, about three hundred fifty 4-226 feet long - you can lose eighty thousand dollars in the engine room in the spare parts bin. It's really simple. Food costs. We had an organization called OTS - which we were instructed to no longer mention - which was actually part of the Church, and was billing for services that it then delivered to OTC. And the people who were delivering the services were Scientology staff members and Apollo crew members. I don't have to -- I don't.think I have to go any farther with showing you how it -- there is another point though. The Church uses a finance system which basically breaks down into weekly income packets. Originally, there was supposed to be an invoice log in all churches that showed with invoice packets and number that were given to Treasury so that the logs -- so people couldn't mess-around with the invoices. what had basically ended up happening was the, Church had Scientology printers that would print up a couple of sets of invoices. And I noticed after -- we did a convention on it in 1970 that I was a part of, and the IRS was making an inquiry into the Church's finances at the time. I never saw a log book in any organization 4-227 after that point, all right? My wife's handwriting, later on in 174, was on invoices that she couldn't possibly have written. In other words, what I'm saying to you is income packets tan be pulled out on even so small a thing as a weekly basis and totally altered, and there will never be a record anywhere else that says that is there was any more money coming into the Church. It's all on an invoice machine and it's done deliberately. MRS. GARVEY: The next queszion I was going -- again down this outline is you talked about -- or mentioned that you were placed in Enemy Condition. When was that? And we've all been hearing about, RPF.. What was RPS? MR. MAYER: Well, you could be assigned to a primarily, it has to do with a lot of crimes against Scientology.--.And those crimes could be things like not applying the policy letter when you should have, not having a good gross income for the week, not having it go up steadily, maybe it went down for six weeks or something like that. So, you could be pulled off of a post and put on the Rehabilitation Project Force. You were held up to ridicule by literally everybody in the organization, you were not allowed to communicate to or communicate unless you were first communicated to by .4-228 somebody. MRS. GARVEY: What - MR. MAYER: I spent time in bilge one time for being late from coming off liberty, and I spent twelve hours in bilge water that deep in the bottom of one of the ships, cleaning the scum off of the hull because I was late. And I went without sleep at that particular time for about thirty-six hours giving my amends to the Church for my crime of not being on post in time. I observed people in a chain locker on this ship for a week on bread and water. A lady named Holly Judd in a place called American Saint Hill Organization in Los Angeles spent something like nine or ten days in a closed room on bread and water, writing up all of her crimes against humanity for the last trillion years, and the Ethics officer would throw them back into her and say that wasn't enough. MR. FLYNN: A point of correlation in terms of corporate policy: You may correlate that testimony that you just heard to the testimony of David Ray in the dumpster with the garbage up to his chest. MS. GARVEY: Right. You're also going to testify to some of the undercover criminal operations as to breaking into offices, 4-229 burglarizing, planting false information - MR. MAYER: Well, that had to do - MRS. GARVEY: as part of your missions? MR. MAYER: -- with the Bill Foster story. I mean, let's face it, I helped a man who was wanted by the federal government get out of this country, and I got him out real fast. MRS. GARVEY: That's MR. MAYER: I don't know if the statute of limitations is up or not. I'm not here to defend mvself. I've done what I've done and you can make do with whatever you want to of it. But I'm here because I know of a lot of very, very decent people who've been jacked around by this organization, their families disrupted, their lives -- I have not been able to live--in one place for the last three years. I. had to structure my whole occupation not around what I can do but around what I am limited to doing in order to avoid my background with the Church from being exposed to an employer. And that's commonplace. And I would like to see people, like -- the stuff I've got is nothing. There are people that I know of that have got things that would really curl your hair, and they're afraid to step out. And I hope that these 4-230 hearings will discourage off a little the staff right now in handling all of the flaps and, hopefully, all of the things that happen will make them too undermanned to resort to anything silly like, you know, physical harm to people. And the people who would like to come out, would like to resume their place in society and become Droductive members of the community, could come out and do it without being chastised for having made a mistake in joining the organization. MR. FLYNN: As City Consultant and having been involved in the investigation of this organization for three years, I can tell you that the individuals -- some of the individuals whom Mr. Mayer refers to -- or many, have contacted my office. I am under confidentiality with regard to their identity. But I can simply say, as the City Consultant, in my investigation efforts, not only specifically for this project but for the last three years, many, many, many such individuals would like, in fact, to come out, but they're in fear. MRS. GARVEY: One of the vicious policies that we've heard about in the past -- and it seems to relate to you, also, is the disconnect with your wife. MR. MAYER: Mm-mm. 4-231 MRS. GARVEY: Is there something about Scientology material demanding divorce? MR. MAYER: Well, initially, when I -- now, this goes back to 1969, when I was on staff in Tustin, Cali- fornia; I was still married at the time. I was intro- duced to Scientology through a friend and heard lectures and so on and so forth. Because I had had a background in public speaking in the United States Navy -- for sometime I explained my submarine warfare techniques to Annapolis Cadets that would come out of training crews -- and understand, this was during the Viet Nam War and we were the Flagship for the Seventh Fleet. So, part of my daily duties was to take a group of officers and train them on how to do various things, and I had quite a bit of experience in talking with people. As a result of that, I was offered a job in the Tustin Organization to teach their Communications course. And I was just told that if I was willing to come in and do it, they wouldn't charge me for the course or anything, they'd give me the training on how to do it and I would just do it. And I, subsequent to that, became their Communication Course Supervisor, and I gave introductory lectures to public every Friday night that would 4-232 come in and sign up. So, I was having a lot of marital problems at the time, as a result of my association with Scientology. So, I was asked to bring my wife in. There was-an attempted handling on her; she was put on a Meter and asked a bunch of questions. And after it was all said and done, she said, "I don't want to be a part of this." She didn't know why; she just knew that she didn't. I don't want to go into that any further. But as a result of that, I was I was considered to be what is called PTS, or a Potential Trouble Source to the Church. The policy very clearly says, "Handle or disconnect." And I said, "Well, she's not going to become a Scientologist." "That's right." What else is there to do? Disconnect. So, at that point in time, you have to realize, I had -- I had gotten into this a bit to the point where I actually believed that part of my spiritual future was involved with the Church. My wife was very heavily into drugs at the time, and I had just come off of them. In fact, one of the things that I had to do, in order to get the job'-- I'm not going to try and tell you that I came back from Viet Nam in good shape; I didn't. And it was years before I could stop hearing the gun at night. So, 4-233 I had to write a letter, promising that I would no longer use drugs, in order - and that I was clean from them - in order to be allowed on staff, all right? So, basically, my wife was just another one of your garden variety humanoids that was socked into drugs, and I was better off without her. And I went for it. Whether that was right or wrong to decide on that, I did. And that marriage was ruined as a result of my believing the Church policy on the matter, that I couldn't recon- a marriage unless my wife was a Scientologist. MR. FLYNN For the record , that policy is Exh 2. MRS. GARVEY: How much pay did you get over or your average salary? MR. MAYER: Well, I had the tendency to make a little more at it because I had bonuses that I would get; I was a senior executive. But probably -- I probably didn't average more than between fourteen and twenty dollars a week for six years. MRS. GARVEY: That was for the first six years. What about the latter MR. MAYER: Well, I got a few bonuses. I got a hundred and twenty-five dollar bonus for raising the income at Saint Hill when I went over there with my wife. 4-234 And I tried to collect my earlier mission bonuses; some of them were up to two hundred dollars for -- well, I went into the Boston Organization and brought the income up from about two thousand dollars to sixty thousand dollars; I went into the Hawaii Organization and brought the income up from about six or seven hundred dollars to sixteen thousand dollars; Austin, Texas from nine dollars and fifty cents to three thousand dollars a week. I was supposed to be getting bonuses for that; you know, just a nice little way to say, "Thanks for your contribution. MRS. GARVEY: How much bonus would you get if you MR. MAYER: I never got it. MRS. GARVEY: Oh. How much bonus would you have gotten if you had gone down to Mexico to take care of the bandits? MR. MAYER: Well, if it was a power mission - in other-words, there was no more problem - there could have been up to a couple of hundred dollars, maybe two hundred fifty dollars. MRS. GARVEY: Oh, that was good. MR. MAYER: But when I say "power,'' I mean, there's no situation to be handled; it's terminatedly handled. In fact, that was what a mission was to do. 4-235 You didn't go out to do continuing handling on an area; you didn't go out to provide progress reports about what you were doing to overcome the situation there. You went out there MRS. GARVEY: And did it. MR. MAYER: -- to turn in a done; "I handled it. The situation no longer exists.". The org. -- in fact, my -- the success of a mission or not was judged on how well the income did for six weeks after I left.- If it dropped, I hadn't trained the and people that I put in to take again well enough I would have been considered a failed missionaire I would have been made mission ineligible. Quite frankly, I would have probably had to do a few amends' projects and gotten a lower condition assignment. There there's just no end to it. I don't know how many incidences I could tell you of things like this to get across to you that this is common, everyday, operating policy, always has been. MRS. GARVEY: How much influenced were you by L. Ron Hubbard's background MR. MAYER: I probably MRS. GARVEY: -- as getting in and staying? MR. MAYER: Well, an awful lot, because I had come 4-236 out of the United States Navy. And then, understand something, from the time I was a little kid, my-father was an Intelligence Aide to the head of the Joint Chiefs of Staff in the Pentagon.' He was with Army Intelligence for twenty-five years. All I had heard about all my life was Army, Navy, war games, this sort of thing. And I had always wanted to be a captain of a ship. I had had some success with the navigation of the flagship that I was on. It was my chance -- you know, it takes-eight years or more to get a certificate through the U.S. system, and at times it's questionable about who controls that, through the maritime system. Here I was offered a chance to get my master's papers just by working --. you know, in exchange for the work that I did. And in addition, I was promised that I would get business degrees and -- I've been very highly trained in business management tech I don't have a degree to show for it and, therefore, when I go out for a job now, I have to hide those abilities I can't bring them out. I have no way of qualifying that because, if anybody calls OTC or the Church of Scientology to verify my employment, I'm the worst guy in the world. 4-237 MRS. GARVEY: I'm assuming that when you first got into auditing, you assumed it was confidential. Did you do any auditing yourself, once you realized that it could be used against you? MR. MAYER: You know, this -is an interesting thing: I was so busy being trained and going around doing administrative things that I got very, very little Scientology auditing, until my very last portion of time in the Sea Organization. I didn't go on the clearing course until I went to Saint Hill in '75, which was probably six months before I was -- I got out; I went on a leave of absence. So, consequently, I didn't necessarily at that time know an awful lot about the technology I was selling, but I sure had been trained to sell. MRS. GARVEY: But you also were using auditing information? MR. MAYER: Oh, certainly. MRS. GARVEY: I mean, if you weren't audited, they wouldn't have gotten any information out of you to use. MR. MAYER: Well, no, not true; not true. MRS. GARVEY: Not true. MR. MAYER: Every Sea Org. member signs up, goes through a security check 4-238 MRS. GARVEY: All right. MR. MAYER: -- on a Meter, your whole background. There's -- at the time I went in, they were calling it a Johannesburg Form, and it was just pages and pages of questions about, you know: "Have you ever killed anybody? Have you ever done this? Have you ever done that? Have you ever infiltrated an organization? Are you here to infiltrate us?" All done on a lie detector. All of that data is then sent - and I was apprised at the time that that data would be sent to Worldwide to the Guardian's Office Worldwide for an International Ethics Clearance. If I passed if' they could not find any connection with what I had said on -this form -- and I mean, they asked some pretty personal questions. MRS. GARVEY: Can you MR. MAYER: My sex life in Scientology is so well documented that I can't even begin to care about it; you know, it just wouldn't be worth it. MR. FLYNN: That's Exhibit 6 in the record. The Commission has seen some of those questions. MRS. GARVEY: Yes. MR. LeCHER: On his sex life? MR. FLYNN: The Church of Scientology has been. after me for three years, and draw your own conclusions. 4-239 MR. MAYER: So, to answer -- in answer to your initial question, all that initial data was sent to International Ethics in Saint Hill, England. From that point on, if I ever got into any trouble with the Church, and there were a number of occasions when I did get into trouble with various people, that information -- in fact, at one point in time Ron Hubbard said, "Okay. We're going to forgive you, you Scientologists, of all of the things you've done against the Church. Well, they had us writing up things that we had done throughout our entire lifetime. I sat for probably three days trying to think up all the things.- you know -- chopping the vines off my mother's bushes, you know, when I was a little kid. And that wasn't enough. They came back to us and said, "It's not finished.-, Make sure it's finished." That all went to the Guardian's Office and into our B 1 files. And we had to do that to get the amnesty; we had to do that to get forgiven. And that was not in a confessional session; it was not done in session oft the Meter. MRS. GARVEY: Mm-mm. Mi. MAYER: That was: "Sit down and turn it over to the Guardian's office when you're done." The Assistan Guardian of every organization collected them, and they 4-240 were forwarded to the files. MRS. GARVEY: So, everyone in the Sea Org. had to do this? ' MR. MAYER: Any Assistant Guardian in any organization of Scientology can call up the Secretary, the Technical Secretary, and order your folders brought in, your confessional folders brought into his office. He can h one of the Guardian's Office's own technically trained avi people go over it and list all the crimes. That's how they get the B 1 - files. All the B 1 file is is a time record, a day/time sequence of all the nasties you've either done to others or to Scientology, and it's right there on the cover and it's indexed just like a legal file. I'm sure you've all seen legal files; it's just like it. So, if you get into any trouble anywhere, that information is used for bringing you around in line. .MRS. GARVEY: To answer the question, though, knowing that MR. MAYER: Sorry. MRS. GARVEY: That's okay. MR. FLYNN: I'll just make a point. As the evidence will show as we proceed, the processes of collecting information - by which this 4-241 organization collects information - are not just limited to auditing information. As Ms. Peterson testified, there's overt and covert data collection. And the essential purpose of all of these processes is to get information, whether you do it by breaking and entering or breaching the fiduciary obligations with regard to confidential auditing information. MRS. GARVEY: The question that I was trying to get at: Knowing that, that the auditing file will be used against you - would not be kept confidential - did youtake any auditing after that? MR. MAYER: Oh, sure. MRS. GARVEY: Why? MR. MAYER: Well, if I had refused the auditing, I would have been refusing to apply Scientology myself and I would have-been expelled. MRS. G ARVEY: Okay. That 'MR. MAYER: I applied -- while I'm on the subject, I myself have used data in a person's confessional folder against him, all right? One of the missions that I did - it was a Flag originated Mission; Flag was not in Clearwater at the time - there was a staff member there who had been doing some stuff with some animals. And the woman that was 4-242 sent -- she was in the country illegally, by the way; she was sent with me. We brought the guy into the office and just laid it out in front of him and said, you know, "You either get on the stick or you're going to be expelled, and that's your spiritual future." I've done it myself. MRS. GARVEY: Were you promised any kind of cures for problems at any step you went? MR. MAYER: I was promised that I would become a world being, capable of operating with or without a body. And the actually, actually controlling, being able to control, things and create effects in a room such as this without having to be physically present. MR. LeTHER: That could be characterized as religion. MR. SHOEMAKER: How about your any type of physical condition MR. LeCHER: What about Paul Hatchett? Do you have a MRS. GARVEY: Well MR. LeCHER: We should follow in line. MR. SHOEMAKER: I'm sorry. I was just trying to follow through on Mrs. Garvey's question. MR. MAYER: I lost track of what the question -------------- 4-243 MRS. GARVEY: Any physical ailments that they promised they'd cure or any mental problems that they promised that they would cure for you, in particular? MR. MAYER: Not me in particular, no. MRS. GARVEY: But they did promise other -- I mean, that's standard practice? MR. MAYER: Oh, yes. MRS. GARVEY: The arthritis, cancer MR. MAYER: That's -- that's -- that is standard. I mean, in fact, that's a very well publicized bit of information in Scientology, that the medical profession itself will admit to seventy percent plus of illnesses being caused by psychosomatic conditions within a person, and it was always hinted, in fact, that it was a hundred percent, you know, in Scientology. Ron has stated it on tape; he has it all taped. The road out of all that stuff is already well mapped, we're the only ones that have it, we don't owe it to anybody else, and they're going to pay for it. That's part of the training that you receive in the Sea Org. MR. LeCHER: Okay. Paul Hatchett, I'd like to hear from you, sir. Do you have a question any questions? 4-244 MR. HATCHETT: Mr. Mayer, you were a senior executive, you know, for several long years, and you got real close to Mr. Hubbard personally; is that right? MR. MAYER: I worked directly with him on some projects, but I wouldn't say that I was a close, personal friend of Mr. Hubbard's, no. MR. HATCHETT: Okay. Why this Apollo? Apparently, it was used for retreats, right? Was it ever used for a retreat while you were captain of it? MR. MAYER: I was the ship's manager of the Apollo. It was not a retreat; it was a training center where high -- allegedly high-level services could be delivered to the Church parishioners. And that could be anything from a Flag Executive Briefing Course, which was how to make a superexecutive for an organization, to some of their spiritual counseling. It could be -- we used to routinely send in fact, we would be ordered at times and billed for it to send staff members from various churches for special events and training courses, manage- ment rundown, big league sales courses. Up registrars would be sent to get a big league sales course-, which would teach them how to effectively handle opposition to sell Scientology. 4-245 I sold Scientology as a Flag Service consultant myself for a while. MR. HATCHETT: ,',ou ever -- on the Apollo, did it ever set sail through the Mediterranean, Africa, or anywhere MR. MAYER: No, not there. MR. HATCHETT: Just the eastern part of the United States? MR. MAYER: Yes. MR. HATCHETT: Can you give me an idea of some ports you stopped in along the eastern coast? MR. MAYER: Well, the only ports chat I was involved in before I left was, basically, the Netherlands Antilles area: Aruba, Curacao, Bonaire. And I-was subsequently sent off on a mission from there before I was able to do anything -- at that time they were in the process of getting ready to come into the United States or go somewhere-to have a Flag Land Base. MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. If I understood you correctly in your testimony, you mentioned something about that you were aboard ship and you observed people being-in chain lockers? MR. MAYER: Yes. A chain locker is where the anchor chain goes down into the very rusty, scummy, dirty 4-246 area of the ship, because mud that comes up from the anchor chain and through the hawse pipe goes down falls down -- into it. So, it's notoriously the filthiest place that you can find on a ship. Well, that's where somebody would be sent to think it over. MR. HATCHETT: Okay. MR. -MAYER: You'd get bread and water until you come out and your thinking was in line with the goals and purposes of the group. MR. HATCHETT: Can you just help me a little bit how you regularly defraud the American government and customs MR. MAYER: I really? MR. FLYNN: Regularly. MR. MAYER: Oh, regularly? MR. HATCHETT: How you MR. MAYER: Well, because there were regular shipments that went from -- all of the churches in the -- for instance, in the United States, at the time I was active in the Church, sent all of their weekly income statistics how much they'd spent, how much they made, how many hours of auditing they had delivered - sent it to the central location, which was called a Flag Operations Liaison Office. From there, all the data would be 4-247 compiled, checks -- whatever they were going to send. And what took place within that liaison office is called External Communications. The person who directly ran External Communications was the only person that was allowed to know either where the Flagship was or where to send that material to another liaison office so it .could be then forwarded on to the Flagship. So, you're talking about everyday trips out to the airport. Everyday trips out to the airport may be any- from six to ten couriers a week going out. And this is is for years. So, there's an incredible amount of Scientology traffic all around the world, and most of it is done under the guise of tourism or students. I sent Japanese nationals to the United States for training when I ran a project in Tokyo, Japan. Gee, it was easy to get Japanese to sign a billion-year contract, because they sign life contracts over there anyway. If you'd ask them to go to work for three years, they'd think you were crazy. See, so, it's real easy to sign them up. All you would do is provide them with a letter for Immigration, stating they were either coming for a visit or they were going to get some training at the local Church, and then they-would be well, most of them didn't stick around; they -- it what was really funny 4-248 was the living conditions were too crowded for even the Japanese. MRS. GARVEY: But they're small people. MR. HATCHETT: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Shoemaker. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Mayer, we had testimony before about the -- there are certain groups which are in the Church now, which were referred to as front groups, the Gerus Society for the elderly -- several types of services who were actually located under the Guardian's Office. MR. MAYER: Right. . MR. SHOEMAKER: I don't know what they were called at the time that you were in the Church, but MR. MAYER: I can tell you one right now that has .to do with children: Applied Scholastics. MR. SHOEMAKER: That one's still in, yes. MR. MAYER: All right. A good friend of mine, Amanda Ambrose, who was at one time a singer -- Amanda was a Sea Org. member. I worked with her -- she worked with me out of a Cel'ebrity Center; we socialized together. She's a black singer. She did a very successful run in one of the productions in Los Angeles; the name escapes me. But she was loaned by the Sea Organization to the 4-249 Guardian's Office as the Executive Director of Applied Scholastics. Her husband was the educator; in other words, he had all his degrees, all his qualifications and stuff. But she was the one that ran the show, and she was a Sea Org. member. She took her orders, her project, from the Guardian's Office. And she was a Sea Org. member on loan to them as Executive Director of Applied Scholastics. That's a direct incident that I know, because I had took one of my friend's children that was having trouble with reading and had put through the the basic purpose of those kinds of programs, do you know, at the time? MR. MAYER: Infiltration in the community. That -- I think, maybe, could sum this all up with a quote from LRH that I got out of one -- I think it was Control of -- it's called SCS: The Mechanics of Control. And it comes from chapter fourteen, and it says: "Man has too long suffered under a school of thought, miceology, which teaches one to conform to the environment. A Scientologist, however, knows that the real victory can only be achieved by commanding the environment, and this is the task that we have on our hands." That's a direct LRH quote. MRS. GARVEY: Control 4-250 MR. MAYER: And I'm talking about your community being infiltrated on a regular basis by psychopolitical operatives who have been well trained. And that is the basic simplicity. And everything that I have said today is to try and drive that point home to you. It is no accident. I trained some, and I know some of them. And now I would like to see that facade all broken apart because Scientology does not deliver what it promises. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Mayer, you had referred before that, when you were up here in Clearwater, that there was a department that was actually changing invoices and had an invoice machine and so forth. Would I be correct in saying that they did not keep regular types of accounting books of the accounting? MR. MAYER: Oh, no. There's specific policy forbidding it. MR. SHOEMAKER: So, there are no books which say or ledgers which show MR. MAYER: Standard accounting procedures are forbidden: too easy to rectify. MR. SHOEMAKER: Well, how do they MR. MAYER: Every sale that is made by the Church is written down at one time on this four-part - and I 4-251 believe it's five-part now invoice. one of the invoices is supposed to be a running record, okay, it's supposed to be unbroken. But the fact of the matter is that they're broken up into weekly and monthly packets so that they can be retrieved very easily, all right-, The various coppies go to various places in the organization. A copy would go to the Public Division so that name would be on file and that person could be contacted for services later on. A couple of the parts were kept -- one went into the Purchasing Files so we would know who Lhe vendors were, who we bought from, prices and things like that. The other one was, of course, your regular copy that you saved for your records. Other than breakdowns done for the Guardian's office, there were no ledgers kept as you would in standard bookkeeping procedures. And as a result of what I went through with the Church and what I testified to in the IRS, those documents are very, very easily changeable. All you have to do is take out one week's income packet and slap in a new one with the same number. When you've got your own printer and a printing press, it's pretty easy to make two sets of invoices or three or four. I can't prove the extent that they did it. But the 4-252 figures that I gave to the IRS, in terms of the Church's overall income during the time I was responsible for it, did not jive with the reports of the Church of Scientology. And they're s till looking for the money. Okay. Cash flow goes from the Church to the Banking officer. Every organization has an Assistant Guardian for Finance and a Flag Banking Officer or a Finance Banking officer. The Finance Banking Officers are under the charge of the Commodore's Staff for Finance, which was last year Fran Broker, and each organization has an Assistant Guardian for Finance. And that data goes up through Worldwide to Herb Parkhouse, who is the Guardian of the Church and its funds. And then from there it goes -- reports are sent back to wherever she happens to be. For a while, it was here in Clearwater. But the point I'm getting at is that that money is traceable from the organization directly to the Flag Land Base or to wherever Flag is or Mary Sue or whoever's in charge of finance. Now, understand, it is a policy of the Sea Organization to be baiting you. To put an organization like Saint Hill there, that you think is the organization that runs the Church on a role-model basis, and, while you're busy trying to get something out of them, all the records 4-253 can be put on a ship and moved somewhere else in the world. One of the one of the jobs that I had as the station ship captain on the west coast was to have that ship ready at any time to go into LA harbor and cart all the files off, plus whatever executive staff we could fit on the ship, to take them -- part-of the land base was to have a land base in Mexico where we could scoot into LA and load them all up. The Excalibur was bought for that purpose: to load the executives and files up and right down the coast into Ensenada and set it up and move it on out from there. MR. FLYNN: You will recall, when I stated earlier, that all of the Red Box data, some, probably, eighty to a hundred thousand documents, were missed by the FBI because they went, first, to one location and the Red Box data was somewhere else. MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Mayer, you had indicated that you worked with the IRS on their particular tax case in Los Angeles and, also, that you worked -- did some legal research, I believe you said, to the -- City Attorney, did you say? MR. MAYER: Oh, that's private. I do legal administration 4-254 MR. SHOEMAKER: Right. I was just going to ask, though: Have you testified before any other governmental agencies or have you talked to any federal authorities, like, the Postal Service or MR. MAYER: For the last several years, the only two people and I say "people," because I'm grouping Mr. Flynn and his associates together - the only two persons that have known where I am, including my family a great deal of the time, was Martin Cohen of-the IRS and Mr. Flynn and his associates. And whenever I would move, I would call them up and tell them how to get in touch with me. You have to understand, I was very reticent to testify for a long, long time because I wanted to have a chance of enjoying my life after I did so. And I think that there's been enough light shed on the operations of the Church now where they'd have to be a fool to start knocking people off. And I know people I know a person that was asked to do away with somebody that's still out there. And one of the and Mr. Allard, who testified at the IRS trial, had been searched for by that person for quite some time and actually had met. So, there are people -- I went 4-255 through a self-defense training course with one of the Guardian's Office black belt people when I went to get Quentin Hubbard's body back. You know, I said, 'Well, I've already had self-defense training from the service," and so on. And he said, "Well, listen, what do you think they're -- you better be able to defend yourself. What do you think that they're going to do when they find out what you guys are doing? You better know how to defend yourself." MR. SHOEMAKER: Do you - this doesn't really, doesnt have anything to do with our hearing but - do you have any idea of what, in fact, happened to Quentin Hubbard? MR. MAYER: I -- I have a very strong personal feeling about what happened to Mr. Hubbard, basd on some things that were told to me in confidence from his confessional folder by my wife, my ex-wife. And I don't know whether it's all right to get into that area or not. MR. LeCHER: That's immaterial to these hearings. MR. MAYER: I don't believe that MR. SHOEMAKER: Thank you. I don't have any further questions. MR. LeCHER: Jim Calderbank, do you have any questions? 4-256 MR. CALDERBANK: -Yeah. I'm going to follow up on something Mr. Berfield has been using quite a bit., And that's, number one, your credibility, Mr. Mayer.You come before us and you talk about I want to get this straight, first. You talked about some very, very criminal acts, conspiracies, racketeering charges, international crimes. And, you know, you have to --first see who Is saying it. MR. MAYER: What's that? MR. CALDERBANK: You have to first try to establish who is saying it. Now, you've been a witness for the IRS in their tax cases? MR. MAYER: Yes, sir. MR. CALDERBANK: Was that under oath and MR. MAYER: Yes. MR. CALDERBANK: was the testimony utilized extensively in their case? MR. MAYER: Yes, sir. MR. CALDERBANK: What is your what is your reason for coming here today? MR. MAYER: Because I want to go back to living a normal life. And an incredible amount of decent people 4-257 that went into Scientology in good faith have been betrayed and they are no longer able to live normal lives and they have to fear for their family, because of the fact that they're afraid of getting bumped off for what they know. And that's what it really boils down to. You know, I'm probably being heavy bearing on this fact, but I don't let anybody know where I'm living. And I can't get married until I'm certain that I know that my daughter, who is hidden - well hidden somewhere - and my wife, Bedie, are going to be able to live a normal life. And if you want to know about my credibility as an executive, I have it in writing from Ron Hubbard. And I have it here in my pocket. MR. FLYNN: On that point, I might also say that many people that Mr. Mayer has referred to -- our office has encouraged many people and told them that, perhaps, the best approach to the whole problem, to which he just referred, is to go public, be public in the public light. And that may be their -- in fact., forever, their best protection. MR. CALDERBANK: Mr. Mayer, we just -- that -- that wasn't on you personally. We've asked that of every witness because the City of Clearwater might be well educated 4-258 to what has been happening over the years, with documents all the way to this hearing. You know, there are other people in other government agencies after this that may be looking at these hearings and they're not as familiar with this type of thing as we are. So, that's why for each witness we try to also establish some credibility. MR. MAYER: You have to realize, too, that during the course of the IRS trial, I had been through all of the federal government's documents on Scientology, I mean, stacks of them, and I read them all. With regard to the other thing, I have a letter from L. Ron Hubbard, my ex-wife and I, that states, I quote: "I want you and Scott placed where you can do the most for Scientology. You are both very capable executives and you well know how merited this is." And it's signed by L. Ron Hubbard and it's dated 12th of July 1975. MR. CALDERBANK: On the -- you were talking about records and how quickly they can be moved, destroyed, falsified, changed. If this is true and you do get records, and records are -- are records meticulously kept of times, places, people? How do you tell which records are true and which records are false? MR. MAYER: Well, I would guess that would be in 4-259 relation to the area that you were examining. I personally would not look at -- I was sitting in an office with Marty Greenberg, who was a CPA for the Church, when he told us how they were beating the IRS investigation. MR. CALDERBANK: So, why MR. MAYER: So, I certainly wouldn't place any confidence in their financial records at all. MR. CALDERBANK: You're saying the IRS was investigating the Church of Scientology and the Church employed a CPA that actually falsified the records? MR. MAYER: Yeah. He's a m ember of the Guardian's Office . MR. CALDERBANK: And you also said that MR. MAYER: He wasn't any way he wasn't available for testimony during the IRS trial for some reason. MR. CALDERBANK: When these couriers went through customsf were any caught? MR. MAYER: As in well, in one particular instance that I recall, one of the couriers misplaced a package with about twenty-five thousand dollars that was coming into Los Angeles, and it got I believe it was recovered, but it was lost on the plane for a while. I don't know of any incident where anybody was caught in terms of -- as a crime. 4-260 MR. CALDERBANK: What did Mr. Foster do? You stated that you helped him escape from the country when he was under federal indictments or he had warrants out for his arrest. Can you get into that? MR. MAYER: Yes. But I wanted him connected to the Church when I did it, do you understand MR., CALDERBANK: Right. MR. MAYER: -- because he was very very afraid of being left high and dry. So, I sent him out as a Church staff member to Canada, across the border, as a tourist. And in actual fact, he was going to take over an organization in Canada at that time, and did so. MR. CALDERBANK: Well, what was his -- what did the officials in this country want him for? MR. MAYER: Breaking and entering. He was part of the team that did all the busting into the newspaper offices and Mr. Flynn's office at the time. His cover had been blown. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. And then, so, you -- when you MR. FLYNN: I'd like to correct that for the record. There will be testimony from the individual -- from another level individual, who Mr. Mayer didn't know at the time, who is in the room here who will be testifying 4-261 about the offices - some of the offices - in his group that were broken into. MR. CALDERBANK: And -- okay. Let's get back to the money leaving the country. You said most of the money either came through Flag or was generated from Flag, which is Clearwater, Florida? MR. MAYER: You know, we're talking about a sevenyear time span wherein the exact location of Flag was moved many, many times. What ! was telling you about was the procedure, and this is what I think is really important because we're dealing with day-to-day business activities: a system that is used to take records, money, anything, personnel, transport personnel under the guise of one thing when, in actuality, it was another thing. I could not testify, for instance, as to the exact number of thousands of dollars that were couriered out. I just know that we didn't have it to spend in Los Angeles af ter we made it; it was gone. MR. CALDERBANK: And in -- how -~- which money was this? How did they get the money? MR. MAYER: Well, it's -- understand, all of the income from every organization is reported to the Guardian 4-262 Finance personnel and the Banking Officer on a weekly basis. Those persons -- for instance, Mike Smith, who was the Flag Banking Officer at the time - he was US Flag Banking Officer - would be given quotas. He would be telexing quotas of money to send to Flag. And as a result of what requirements were, I would be required to brief couriers to have that sent out. MR. FLYNN: One more clarification for the record: In 1970 and '71, I was in the law firm of Bingham, Dana & Gould; I'm not currently in that law firm. One of the Guardian's Office operations was to steal documents from the firm of Bingham, Dana & Gould, to which I am no longer affiliated. At the time, of course, I didn't know it; I didn't know anything about the Church of Scientology. The individual who was involved in that particular operation, or some of those operations, is in the courtroom. But substantiation has to be made on the record between my present office and the firm of Bingham, Dana & Gould, to which I used to be attached. MR. CALDERBANK: Okay. You mentioned a lot of military 'references: mission, elimination, check operatives, security checks, mission completed, and that type of thing. Did you ever see or use any stolen government 4-263 equipment? How did you get these intelligence procedures from the U.S. government? MR. MAYER: Where Mr. Hubbard got his original information, I have no idea. I'm -- what I was referring to -- these were -- these are techniques. which you yourself as a hearing committee can go out and research and read about yourself, now. The point ! was trying to make is that they're not something that was just dreamed up out of the sky as some supertechnology. It's pretty standard stuff'. MR. CAlDERBANK: And very interesting. What would you say as your final comment to the people in Clearwater? You said you wanted to remove the facade? What would you say to Clearwater and what would you say to the Pinellas County tax authorities? What would you say to people that should be interested in the Church of Scientology? MR. MAYER: Well, I've got probably about eight or nine points down here. I think that -- understand something, having worked with a municipal government - like I said, I'm on call to the Environmental Services in Los Angeles and the City Attorney's office - I'm familiar with a task force type of activity. The City of Santa Monica has established 4-264 within the several advisory departments of the City Attorney's Office, an office called Consumer Affairs, whereby people in the community who have been mistreated by businesses may call up and make a complaint and they will be contacted by the Consumer Affairs person and a hearing will be set up and arbitration will be attempted, all right? I recommend that very highly to this city, unless you can provide a communicational line and someplace safe for all the people that are sitting over in that hotel right now who would get out if they thought they'd stand a chance of making it, you know, without getting hung for criminal activities. I think they'd start popping up like crazy, and they've got stuff that I never even, you know, came close to doing. MR. CALDERBANK: My last question is what the Mayor was asking about why you moved into Clearwater. It's just a personal question.You mentioned about politics when they came in. And at the time the City Commission -- did they feel, either by having skeletons in the closet or by inactivity, that they would not be as hotly pursued? MR. MAYER: Well, I can't answer that in terms of what they or the operations officers at that time were 4-265 doing. The simplicity of it is is that it's the goal of Scientology to make every single person on this planet a Scientologist and to get the technology that Scientology has, quote, administrative and counseling technology integrated into the society. And every single person that signed one of those billion-year contracts was will will to put their life on the line to make sure it happened for a billion years. MR. LeCHER: You asked him a question, Mr. Calderbank, and I don't know if you completed your answer, Mr.. Mayer, but you asked him for advice. And you were going to give us eight or nine points. MR. MAYER: oh. MR. LeCHER: I'd like you to give us those eight or nine points.. MR. MAYER: Allright. MR. CALDERBANK: And also, advice on what we should do if we feel there are any dirty tricks up the road. MR. MAYER: Okay. I firmly believe that you should have either a volunteer or someone appointed but operating from the City Attorney's Office in terms of a consumer complaint line. 4-266 You're talking about -- when somebody plops down eighty thousand dollars to come to Flag - and I've sold packages that big - to come here, to get services and they don't get them, where are they going to go to deal with that, religion or no religion? I don't believe for one second that Scientology is a bona fide religion. MR. SHOEMAKER: We can't MR. MAYER: So, you know MR. LeCHER: We don't want to get into that. MR. MAYER: So, there ought to be a place where somebody that's mistreated by the Church can call to get some assistance, to be able to lodge a formal complaint. Unethical sales practices are unethical sales practices no matter what product you're using. I think that a hotline could be established, much like the hotlines that people use for turning in crimes or if there's a suicide line or something like that. Perhaps, one of the lines could be made available to people who have complaints or are being what they -- they feel they're being held against their will. And I think that those kinds of calls, once the person is safely outside; in other words I think that stuff should be publicized. Perhaps, halfway houses could be -- to contact a 4-267 volunteer to provide a place to stay for a staff member that wanted to make -- have a reasonable chance of getting to that airport and out back to -- some of them haven't seen more than ten dollars in their pocket for years. And most of that was spent on, you know, little things they just needed. So, where are they going to get the money to get out of here? All you do, you see, when you allow them to stay here is to allow the Guardian's Office to get into its thing about handling them and continue to make this sort of thing grow. So, if there was a reasonably safe line established where people who wanted to get out -- Scientologists who didn't want to be in the community to get out. That would be really great for them. I think you could have a research team look int o legitimate counseling techniques, legitimate professionals in the area that could be called upon to do volunteer work or could be advertised or promoted by your city information area to let people with problems know that there are legitimate counseling groups around that can help them, so they won't have to feel like they have to stay within the Church of Scientology in order to handle whatever it is that's bothering them. There could be lists published of people where people could go. 4-268 I think that you could well make use of your Fire, your Zoning, your Building Inspectors to ensure that local regulations, the municipal ordinances, that you have are complied with. And I very highly advocate that those are surprise, frequent, not standard inspections, but be done on a basis where you just walk in and go through it: you list the violations and they're recorded and you issue your warnings and so on and so forth, and come back and check it out, not only when it was supposed to be done but maybe a week after it was supposed to be done and you received evidence. Go back and see if it's still there. You might have ten people in a room that you certified as now being habitable a-week after you they've reported compliance. So, I think you could use those ordinances to the main point that I'm trying to make here is that if you are willing to be responsible for making Scientology behave in an ethical manner in this community, they are going to have to do it. They -- I don't think that they have the guns anymore. I think there's too many people leaving the Church too fast for them to cover all of the areas that they're already in noncompliance with in terms of local breaches. I think you could inform the Customs officials out 4-269 here, Immigration officials that there are regular shipments of people that are coming in and out allegedly as students or tourists who are not in the country legally. And make sure that those get -- make sure that -- check it out and see whether or not there aren't four or five different businesses out here at Tampa Airport that are don't really exist but are shipping out Scientologists, materials, money MR. CALDERBANK: Mr. Mayer, thank you very much. MR. MAYER: Yes, sir. MR. LeCHER: Mr. Berfield do you have ations? MR. BERFIELD: Yes, just a few. Mr. Mayer, you made mention of these files that were brought in here about the size of this room. The last time you were in Clearwater, do you know if those still existed? 'MR. MAYER: The last time I was here in Clearwater I used them. MR. BERFIELD: You used those files? MR. MAYER: Sure. I was being briefed here for a mission.. I went out of here on a mission to go handle another area of the world. All of the data on those organizations resided here. It was used to evaluate the 4-270 situation so somebody could determine that I had to go in the first place. I didn't just get -- somebody didn't just indiscriminately call me from a job of fixing up the Flagship Apollo to send me to South Africa to handle a situation. There were a lot of reports that were sifted through, evaluated. The local political scene in South Africa, at the time I went -- I left when twenty thousand Africans were marching on Johannesburg during the Zaire riots. I got out of town the day that happened, all right? So, the political scene was evaluated. And I was ordered to get my eh-eh out of there. So, it's no accident that those files were there, and they were used for the purpose of evaluating Church operations. MR. BERFIELD: But are these files that we're making reference to files that are here in Clearwater from people all over the United States and, possibly, all over the world? And they're files that could be used for covert actions, is that correct, blackmail, or whatever you wish to call it? MR. MAYER: Anything they wanted to do with it. That's a good point. It would be pursuant to the policy of the Church at the time. 4-271 MR. BERFIELD: Whatever the Church policy, there's sufficient information in these files to - MR. MAYER: Understand that Church policy is a very malleable tool, all right? There is a staff of people that work -- have worked under Ron Hubbard and Mary Sue to carry out their intentions, their goals and purposes, on a planetwide basis. Every little treasury secretary in every organization around the world reports, at least once a week, to a Guardian's Office staff member and a Flag staff member here to Clearwater that is responsible for that area. Here it would be, like, CS 3, Commodore's Staff. Commodore's Staff means, "I do this action for L. Ron Hubbard." That's the job. And the assistant for that area evaluates the overall international scene with all the other assistants from various areas to come up with what is called The Weekly Battle Plan, and it's not misnamed, either. It is a weekly battle plan on how Scientology is going to be expanded in all its operations all over the world. MR. BERFIELD: This is just kind of a curious question: Did you ever get your mate's papers from - MR. MAYER: I have them, but - MR. BERFIELD: -- U.S. Customs, U.S. Coast Guard 4-272 papers, or - MR. MAYER: No. I was -- I am registered as captain in the Honduran and the Panamanian Merchant Marines. MR. BERFIELD: Do you know -- you had mentioned I call them shell or front for paper companies. Do you know whether or not the Church of Scientology has any shell or paper companies here in the State of Florida? MR. MAYER: In present -- at the present time, no. I haven't had anything to do with Clearwater since I left in '77 -- 176. MR. BERFIELD: Now, I don't mean to sound harsh on this, but in what you have told us, you have a tremendous background in Scientology and you've given us a lot of facts and figures. And one of the things that Mr. Calderbank tried to elicit from you - and I'm not so sure we got it all from you -.is: With all of this information and the fact that your family or your child's life is at stake and, possibly, your future is at stake, what would provoke you from coming down here -- not provoke you, what caused you to come down here? If I could go a step further MR. MAYER: A coward dies a thousand deaths. And 4-273 I don't intend to run from Scientology for the rest of my life. We're going to have it out; that's all there is to it. I'm not going -- I'm not going to destroy my life; I'm not going to be away from my family; I'm not going to remain away from my daughter because there's some organization that puts out the picture to everybody in it that it's powerful enough to come out and do them in if they don't play ball. And I think it's time for that kind of stuff to stop. All they -- I made it through Nam. My life's been blessed since then, all right? I don't anything lose except my life, and I've lived a very full life. And I don't intend to spend the rest of it running from the Church of Scientology, period. MR. BERFIELD: The story that -- the story that you have told us sounds like something that one of our novelists might be able to write if they took the time. And I guess what I'm trying to say to you is: It is so fictitious not fictitious. it is so fantastic and incredible MR. CALDERBANK: Bizarre. MR. BERFIELD: -- and, as Mr. Calderbank just said, bizarre that, unless the people are watching television 4-274 MR. MAYER: You can't see the forest for the trees. MR. BERFIELD: -- this story will not get out to the public. How can we get it out to the public? MR. MAYER: You guys have just scratched the surface; You haven't -- you haven't even touched any of the good stuff, yet. You're just getting to it. And, hopefully, what's going on here will bring people out of the woodwork that can tell you stories that make my stuff look like small potatoes. MR. BERFIELD: One other question that I have and then I'll leave you alone because it appears like I'm, trying to crucify you: Did you know what these hearings were about before you came down here? MR. MAYER: All I knew was that hearings were being conducted. There were people that I had known in Scientology that were going to be here. And -- well -- see, I made my commitment when I went -- when I agreed to testify for the IRS. Commander Bob Young, who I was in business with at the time - a business outside of Scientology, but we were in business together - was also approached by the IRS. Mr. Young chose to take a trip around the world and become no longer visible to the Church of Scientology, and I had to decide at that time whether I wanted to stay 4-275 in hiding another three, four, five, or six years until somebody found out enough about what was going on to give me a running chance. Now, I'm not asking for police protection for the rest of my life. I just want a reasonable chance to be able to continue it without having to be looking over my shoulder all the time and worrying about whether my daughter is going to get into some kind of trouble at school or whatever. Maybe it's only a possibility, but possibility would you take the possiblity with your daughter? MR. BERFIELD: That's not even a good question with my daughter. MR. MAYER: Well. MR. BERFIELD: Just a couple of questions and then I'll leave. You had mentioned the possibility of a safe haven for counseling or something like this. And this is one of the questions that I asked several of the previous witnesses, you know, where did they feel that they could go in the-city to feel safe. Most of the a nswers that I recall writing down that, mentally, they felt they couldn't - go anywhere. MR. MAYER: Well, they 're supposed to feel that way. So, I mean, if this is the mecca for the most 4-276 advanced technology on the planet for all of the birds in flight, then, where else could you go? And that's the whole point that I'm trying to bring about. You are supposed to be at the only place you can go for help in the whole world, in the universe for that matter. And all the rest of you guys are gadabouts. You're just simple, everyday, garden variety humanoids, and you haven't got what it takes to do the job. And that's the attitude that Scientologists come here with. You are the enemy. We're the oriental gentlemen, WOGS. I don't particularly feel that way, but, when I was in Scientolog-,.-I treated you like that and got commendations for it. MR. BERFIELD:. I have just one parting comment and I don't know if you had it written down or it's off the top of your head there - that -- and I couldn't take it down fast enough. That was: That you had trained all of these people to commit all these acts and you were concerned about the people of Clearwater. MR. MAYER: The people of Clearwater? MR. BERFIELD: Yes. MR. MAYER: I think the people of Clearwater can deal with Scientology for a long time. How effective you are at it, I have no -- I'm trying to give you suggestions 4-277 about it. But understand, when I left Scientology, I left eight years of friendships, people that I love and respect, who, I know, came into the Church of Scientology with good intentions: to do something constructive for mankind, for the communities that exist or that they were a part of for their friends and their families, and they have been sold down the tubes. I can't talk to people that I dearly love now because they're still in Scientology. If I got anywhere near any one of them, I'd have more Gaurdian's Office Staff members around me than Carter's have Iiver pills. They are forbidden to communicate with me. And I don't know how long I've got to sit and take that kind of crap. I think I'm done with it. I may have to continue-on and go through more hearings and stuff like that, but sooner or later people that I know and love-- and who, in turn, love me and respect me that are in the Church - are going to graduate from Scientology. If I've done anything to help that along, that's what I'm here for. MR. BERFIELD: Would you - and this is it - would you say that the health, the safety, and the welfare of the people in Scientology -- that their health or their 4-278 safety or their welfare is at risk or in danger? MR. MAYER: They're ill-fed; they're ill-housed; they're ill-clothed; they get horrible dental care; they get horrible care for their children. I have a personal friend who was left in the middle of one of their Scientology drug rundowns incomplete and committed suicide a couple of weeks before I could get to him in Hawaii. Yvonne Jentz, who is no longer with us, was a very, very close friend of mine. In fact, part of the problem I got into with the Flag people was I was trying to go to her-office and be in her office. She's dead now because she depended on Scientology technology to cure a tumor. I can't-ever talk to that woman again. She's dead because she went to a Scientologist instead of a doctor. If that doesn't indicate danger, I don't know what does. MR. BERFIELD: Thank you, Mr. Mayer, very much. MR. LeCHER: I just have two quickies. You mentioned Marty Greenberg. Does Marty Greenberg keep and maintain an accurate list of the income data of the organization? MR. MAYER: I couldn't answer that question. I don't know the extent of the files that the Church keeps 4-279 in LA at this point in time; that's been too many years. MR. LeCHER: But if you take in all this money and you put it it one big hat somebody must know where the records are, even though they may- not be records that you and I would recognize from Accounting I, accounting principles. MR. MAYER: I'm sorry. I don't MR. LeCHER: Somebody must maintain records, some sort of records; they may not be recognized standard accounting principles. MRS. GARVEY: Of how much money is in MR. MAYER: Well, all of the organizations would have, in their treasury -- you know, they would have invoices, their copies of invoices. Remember I told you MR. LeCHER: Yes. MR. MAYER: -- it's like a five-part form? They would-have their copies and stuff, all right? Now, they might be ordered to send all of those copies to Flag or to a -- like they did in the early sixties and change all of those records -- or in the late sixties, they changed those records. I mean, how hard is it to take out a week's worth of invoices and put in another set, when you've got a 4-280. nine dollar and fifty cent a week labor cost? MR. LeCHER: Okay. .Within the organization, do you think that they would ever disown Mrs. Hubbard and the other eight or nine that were convicted? MR. MAYER: Well, you want my personal - MR. LeCHER: Well, that's why I asked the question. MR. MAYER: I believe it depends on how well they've gone about disappearing the money that everybody's suing for now. In other words, I firmly believe that, if it was for the best. interest of the too management of Scientology to disconnect - if Scientology could disestablish - they'd do it in an instant. I don't think for a moment that they would stop operations. You might not have the Church of Scientology, but there would be something else. And then, again, there have been an awful lot of government agencies for a lot of years trying to nail them down and haven't done a very good job of it. So, how long do you think it's going to go on? It's anybody's guess. know they've been taking ten percent of the organization's income for many, many years and putting it in the Guardian's Defense Fund, specifically, to handle all this kind of stuff. 4-281 MR. LeCHER: Can Scientology exist without deception and fraud MR. MAYER: I don't know how MR. LeCHER: as a viable organization? MR. MAYER: because it couldn't compete in the rest of the mental health community. MR. LeCHER: That's a good answer. One final one: What would you compare this organization to? MR. -MAYER: I think it's I think it's you have to realize something: My father operated in the intelligence community. I have told him stories that, when I first started getting the heavy training, he was just -- I mean, he was shocked at what I was -- how I was being trained. We would sit down and go over how those techniques were the same -- my father did security for the Nuremburg trials, so he's no slouch. You know, he was an intelligence advisor to the Joint Chiefs of Staff at the Pentagon. I have never had any problem asking him questions about whether or not this was intelligence technique and getting an answer out of him. He wrote some of the training manuals, all right? So, you are dealing with an organization that has 4- 282 taken the most effective techniques of all the intelligence services, not only taken those techniques and used them to train their own personnel but, then, taking those personnel and putting them into those organizations as operatives. I've heard, for instance, Artie Maren brag about people in congressmen's offices that called up and reported to the Guardian's Office on a daily basis. These are secretaries who do this. I personally know a couple of ladies from Vermont that were on a senator's line that routinely gave information to the Guardian's Offfice. So, they're much more effective in most cases because of the fact that they operate under the illusion of a religion, so you can't touch them. MR. LeCHER: We can't talk about that, either. MR. MAYER: Exactly. That's my point. MR. LeCHER: That's right. Thank you very much. You're a very bright, articulate man. MR. HATCHETT: I have a MR. LeCHER: All right. one quickie. Mr. Hatchett would like to ask you about one MR. HATCHETT: Mr. Mayer, I purposely left this 4-283 question until the end. As I observe the Fort Harrison operation and some people going back and forth, I don't see what I physically would call the minorities, you know, in the Church of Scientology. I want to know about the Clearwater operation outside, you know, what I observe. Can you account for this reason in any way? We thought that they were streetwise - and wedefined that one time MR. MAYER: I know what street I was born in Chicago. MR. HATCHETT: All right. Can you -- MR. MAYER: I went to school through I fought my way to school through your neighborhood. MR. HATCHETT: All right. MR. MAYER: I know what streetwise is. MR. HATCHETT: All right. MR. LeCHER: Why did MR. MAYER: I think you're probably quite right. I don't know of an awful lot of black people and minority people in Scientology. I don't know what the statistics are, certainly, over the last six years, but there were very few when I was involved with the Church. 4-284 MR. HATCHETT: See, the thing about the low wages, you know, you're talking about a labor force, we've been accustomed to that for years and years. MR. MAYER: And it pays less than unemployment. MR. HATCHETT: Right. MR. LeCHER: We want to thank you MR HATCHETT: We just don't go for that - MR. LeCHER: -- for being a good witness and being very articulate, and you have a very engaging personality and you've - MR. MAYER: Thank you. MR. LeCHER: -- shed a lot of light on the issues.. We have four more witnesses to see in the next two hours, so let's take a little quick break and then we'll come back and run right through it. (Whereupon, a recess was taken.) (Whereupon the hearing resumed.) .MR. LeCHER: Well, we are waiting for the -- Mr. Hatchett and Mr. Calderbank. Mr. Hatchett is here. Mr. Calderbank, are you out there? All right. Ladies and gentlemen, please take your seats. The officer will close the door.' We have had a very interesting four days. We want 4-285 to conclude by six, ladies and gentlemen. We have four more witnesses. I ask that the Commission, and that includes myself, will not be repetitive in questions. So, we will go immediately to Mr. Flynn and his' next witness. MR. FLYNN: Okay. First, I'm going to read quickly an affidavit, just t on a corroborat ive point, and read it into the record and it will be marked as an exhibit, the next exhibit. It's an Affidavit of Stan Herrin. Stan Herrin, reside with my wife AnnetteHerrin, in Las Vegas, Nevada. I was involved with the Church of Scientology from the summer of 1972 through 1978. During the time I was a member of the Church in Las Vegas, Nevada, I had gone on board L. Ron Hubbard's, the leader of Scientology, ship, the Apollo. I paid more than thirteen thousand dollars to Scientology. I paid this money to L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology after being told by Church members and reading L. Ron Hubbard's books representations concerning L. Ron Hubbard's background and the benefits of Scientology. "Some of the benefits I was promised in Scientology included a higher IQ, faster reaction time, total recall, 4-286 complete physical health, and perfect thinking. I was told L. Ron Hubbard researched, discovered, and developed cures for illnesses using the technology of Scientology., I was told L. Ron Hubbard was a nuclear physicist, he had graduated from the finest institutions in the United States: Princeton University and George Washington University. I was told that L. Ron Hubbard was one of the most decorated heroes of World War !I, he was a world traveller, a discoverer of far off cultures, and was able to heal himself after being crippled and blinded from a wound received in battle in World War I!. "While in Scientology, I joined a force known as the Sea Org. The Sea Org. works to carry out Hubbard's orders from aboard the ship, Apollo. While on board Hubbard's ship, the Apollo, I was trained as a Finance Banking officer for the organization. As the Finance Banking officer, I was familiar with the gross income of the Scientology orgs. Orgs. were required to file weekly reports to Church headquarters and to L. Ron Hubbard. At one point, I was responsible for insuring at least ten percent of funds from a particular Scientology org. was sent to Hubbard. "One primary task I had while on board the Apollo* concerned accompanying George Beasley, the head Flag 4-287 Finance Banking Officer, as a courier for L. Ron Hubbard of huge sums of cash in bank-wrapped bundles and carried in a briefcase to the ship from banks on shore. George Beasley told me that Hubbard had accounts in Switzerland and Africa. He told-me the money was from funds sent to the Operation Transport Corporation and then, subsequently, transferred to numbered accounts in Switzerland and Africa. "Conditions on board the ship were extremely harsh; sleeping quarters were dark, damp, and crowded. only thirty- second showers were allowed. Worst of all, any person who disobeyed any of Huzzard's orders was placed in the RPF, Rehabilitation Project Force. The Rehabilitation Project Force was Hubbard's internal prison for those Scientologists who disobeyed his orders. All mail to and from the ship was censored for I was told ship's security. During this time, I received only a couple of letters my wife sent to me; she received only one of about six I sent her. Hubbard ordered the censoring to prevent Scientologists from writing and exposing facts about L. Ron Hubbard's broken arm, colds, sicknesses, et cetera. "Signed under the pains and penalties of perjury this 27th day of April 1982, Stan Herrin." (The Affidavit of Stan Herrin was 4-288 marked as Exhibit No. 47, as of this date.) MR. FLYNN: The next witness is an individual named Robert Dardano, and he'll give a statement. And after that, we'll read portions of the Affidavit of Tonja Burden. MR. LeCHER: Would you have Mr. Dardano sworn in, please. Madame Clerk, swear the witness. ROBERT DARDANO, a witness herei . having first been duly sworn by a Clerk for the City of Clearwater, was examined and testified as follows: MR. LeCHER: Mr. Dardano, I want to ask you the same five questions: Are you appearing here today and testifying under oath voluntarily? MR. DARDANO: Yes, I am. MR. LeCHER: Have you been paid by anyone for your testimony, other than expenses for coming to the City of Clearwater? MR. DARDANO: No, Sir. MR. LeCHER: Do you have a lawsuit against the Church of Scientology? MR. DARDANO: No. 4-289 MR. LeCHER: Does the Church of Scientology have a lawsuit against you? MR. DARDANO: No, sir. MR. LeCHER: Has anyone suggested to you that you should state anything but the truth or has anyone suggested that you change your testimony for any reason? MR. DARDANO: No. MR. LeCHER: Thank you. Proceed however you want. Do you have a statement to read or do you have an outline or whatever? MR. DARDANO: I'm working from an outline. I became a member of the Church of Scientology in '71, and was on staff as a staff member from '71 to '73. In 173, 1 left the Church because of family problems. And my mother had attacked the Church through the Better Business Bureau, so I was immediately taken off staff because of her legal threat to the Church. During the summer of '73, 1 was working in Worcester, and I was shortly -- in August of '73, I was contacted by a member of the Guardian's Office and asked to do covert data collections. MR. SHOEMAKER: Did you say "overt" or "covert"? MR. DARDANO: Covert. MR. SHOEMAKER: Covert. 4-290 MR. DARDANO: This was happening in Boston, Massachusetts. The group that I joined was seven people. We were all assigned we all got our orders from the Boston Church, directly from the Guardian's Office. And we had people in the Boston Public Library that would collect information and data on individuals that were attacking the Church. That would be the overt data collections. The covert data collections consisted of doing surveillances on people, such as newspaper reporters, other individuals that were attacking the Church at the time. The covert data collections had made placements in various government offices, such as the Attorney General's Office, the Better Business Bureau, the Consumer's Council, and the Law Assistance -- LEAA, Law Assistance Law Enforcement Assistance Association. During the year that we operated together, we were able to pull off quite a few operations on different people; some of them were successful. one of the more successful operations was stealing Paulette Cooper's medical files from her doctor's office in Belmont, Massachusetts. Along with this, we also were to -- were able to 4-291 interrupt the correspondence between the Boston Globe and the attorney's office. The law office was Bingham, Dana & Gould, and we placed an agent in the building to clean the law offices at night, and he was able to review the files daily to see what correspondence was going on between the Globe and the Scientologists. That was 197/4. we also worked with letter-writing campaigns to smear people, individual, who worked on Project FreakOut, Operation Snow White. This was some of the Drograms given to -- the programs that were national and worldwide programs developed by the Guardian's Office for the protection of Scientology. Paulette Cooper's file was -- we were able to find out what doctors she was seeing and locate the office that the files were in, and it was just a matter of walking in, taking it, xeroxing it, and bringing it back in, putting it back in the file. There was a mistake made that we kept the file out of the office for a longer length of time than we should have. Other than that, the file probably would have never been missed. The group of people that I was with there were seven people, and we rented a house about thirty miles north of Boston. We operated like a -- like the Church would operate under the Church policies. Our deadline 4-292 our week ended on Thursday at two o'clock, as the Church did. We all kept statistics on particular products that we were supposed to produce. our products were connections and instances. For instance, if there was someone who was attacking the Church, we would try and find as many connections they had to other individuals, other groups, what they did on a daily basis. And those would all be counted as statistics and sent, first, into Boston and then up lines, eventually, to Flag. The file was -- Paulette Cooper's -file was stolen on a Saturday afternoon. It was just a matter driving down to the office. A couple of people got out of the van, went into the office. They were able to jump over a small partition wall and get into the office and look her name up in the file, pull the file, and just walk out of the building. There was no great security. .. Most of the files and most of -- in fact, just be-ing in these offices, it's very easy t o pull anything you want out of this office. It's security people don't realize what Scientologists are after or why they may be after it in the first place. And it's very easy just to walk into most places and get any information that they want because it's not considered valuable and it's 4-293 not very well protected. David Grace was the agent who was placed at the cleaning company at the lawyers' -- the Boston lawyers' office. He. was in the lawyers' office at Bingham, Dana & Gould, and he was able to go in the file, take the information that he wanted, use their Xerox machine, xerox it, bring it back 'in the morning, and we could send it up lines to the GO in the Boston Chu rch. Any money that we needed for things that needed to be done, such as xeroxing or travel-ing expenses, the Church would give us to use what we had The people that were in the Better Business Bureau would interrupt complaints coming from public people about the Church. And, basically, it was turned right around and sent right back to the public with no satisfaction,,,although the public felt they were being satisfied because they had reached someone in the Better Business Bureau. The Attorney General's Office agent was -- he had uncovered a couple of attacks coming from public people. And his cover was finally blown by the fact that he requested information on the Church from the Justice Department. This - Mr. Mayer mentioned Bill Foster's name before. Bill Foster was the head of this -- he was 4-293 not very well protected. David Grace was the agent who was placed at the cleaning company at the lawyers' -- the Boston lawyers' office. He. was in the lawyers' office at Bingham, Dana & Gould, and he was able to go in the file, take the information that he wanted, use their Xerox machine, xerox it, bring it back 'in the morning, and we could send it up lines to the GO in the Boston Chu rch. Any money that we needed for things that needed to be done, such as xeroxing or travel-ing expenses, the Church would give us to use what we had The people that were in the Better Business Bureau would interrupt complaints coming from public people about the Church. And, basically, it was turned right around and sent right back to the public with no satisfaction,,,although the public felt they were being satisfied because they had reached someone in the Better Business Bureau. The Attorney General's Office agent was -- he had uncovered a couple of attacks coming from public people. And his cover was finally blown by the fact that he requested information on the Church from the Justice Department. This - Mr. Mayer mentioned Bill Foster's name before. Bill Foster was the head of this - 4-294 the captain of this particular group, and he had been there since 1971. He was operating the overt data/covert data collections from. '71 to 176 in Boston. And it. wasn't until George Bristol's cover was blown at Attorney General's Office that the line was disbanded and the group of seven people were sent to different parts of the country. Nancy and Bill Foster went to New York; George Bristol went to Canada; two other people went cut to California; and a couple of others, David Grace and his wife, Nancy Grace, went- to the Sea Org. in LA. So, the Church has just an ability to move people around very quickly to get them out of sight. We used code names and our reports were written in code names, normally. It- could have been at the point where we were or where we were coming from. The letters that were written in the smear campaigns -- the typewriters were stolen and usually used just for a short time and then the typewriters were destroyed and new typewriters were gotten. Everything was done with plastic gloves so that there wouldn't be any fingerprints or things like this. My position on the line was -- initially, it was I was the head of the overt data collections and I 4-295 handled, roughly, five people in the Boston Public Library. We'd use all different sources to gather information on pub lic officials, senators, whoever the Church we would get a list from the Go's office of who we had to investigate that particular week, and we would go ahead and get as much information as we could on those people. Shortly after that, the rest of the people in overt data collections understood the -- what they were doing, so I was able to train someone and they took over that particular post. And I moved into covert data collections. From the covert data collections -- this is where I would handle people like George Bristol, who was in the Attorney'General's Office, Nancy Foster, Consumer Affairs, Nancy Grace was in the Better Business Bureau. And each week these people would file reports of what went on on a daily basis in each one of these offices. The -- it was very difficult for a public person in Boston to make a complaint about the Church and have it go anywhere. We had all the bases covered. They couldn't -- if they called the Attorney General's Office, George Bristol was sitting there and he's handling all Scientology cases. So, it was just "Fine, ma'am, we'll take care of it," and it wouldn't go anywhere from there. 4-296 Anything that was even a hint or a mention of Scientology was brought out, as much information as -- we would immediately look into that individual that brought up the issue of Scientology and he was completely investigated to find out what he did. We put people under surveillance .to find out where they were going and what they would do. MR. FLYNN: Oh, incidentally, I think I said this before but it's rather an amusing anecdote from my point of view: My old law firm was Bingham, Dana & Gould - and it was burglarized, and my present law firm has just surrendered some eight thousand documents to the same organization. MR. DARDANO: The one thing about Scientologists is that they are there because they think they are buying. themselves spiritual freedom, and they are totally committed to--the organization and to their goals. it takes an individual a long time after he's left the Church to be able to have the freedom to believe that he's going to be okay without Scientology. You've got to -- as a Commission, you are going to have a tough job in trying to decide what to do with this group. That's about all I have to say. MR. LeCHER: In the interest of time, I'll only ask 4-297 you one question: Do you feel that there is now in the City of Clearwater, or has there been, a smear or cover up, either of any civil officials -- city officials or by any city officials with respect to Scientology? MR. DARDANO: A cover up by a city official or - MR. LeCHER: By city or county or state or any local officials, if you know of any? MR. DARDANO: No, I don't know of anything like that. But Scientology operates standardly with every org and every mission, and it's certainly going on; it's just that it hasn't been uncovered. MR. LeCHER: Well MR. DARDANO: There are probably undercover agents here now from the Church. MR. LeCHER: Since you had your -- you had every act -- your act covered in Boston, I wonder if the act is covered here, too. MR. DARDANO: There's a good possibility, but it's very hard to tell. MR. LeCHER: I will,-- again, because of time, I will yield to the next Commissioner. Is that Mr. Hatchett? MR. HATCHETT: I haven't any questions. MR. LeCHER: Do you have any questions, Mr. 4-298 Shoemaker? MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. Dardano, how did you leave the or-what made you decide to come to Florida to testify? MR. DARDANO: Well, I had been -- I have been in contact with Mr. Flynn for almost two years now, so it was just a matter of knowing*that. MR. SHOEMAKER: Why did he come to see -- why did you go to see Mr. Flynn? MR. DARDANO: I wanted some way out of the -- that I was really trapped and not being able to live my life -freely the way that I had been before I got into Scientology. You're brainwashed. A Scientologist is a person that's been brainwashed. it was very difficult to get back into the mainstream of life, and there's usually a lot of things that bother the individual just as far as our own personal life is concerned. MR. SHOEMAKER: Did they attempt to use the informa- tion that you were involved in covert activities against you to try to keep you in the organization or to keep you quidt or - MR. DARDANO: No. They -- I had to sign as all Scientologists, if 4-299 you're causing any sort of flap, you have to sign documents saying that you will not attack the Church in any way. MR. SHOEMAKER: Have they interfered since you've left with your life in any way that you're aware of? MR. DARDANO: No, not that I'm aware cit. MR. SHOEMAKER: To be clear on this: What, in fact, you're stating is that you have firsthand knowledge of criminal activities occurring in the City of Boston against -.-arious people; is that correct? MR. DARDANO: Yes, sir, that's correct. MR. SHOEMAKER: And you -- so, you actually saw it; it's not something that somebody told you about MR. DARDANO: We did it - MR. SHOEMAKER: on that basis. MR. DARDANO: -- as a group. We were a conspiracy formed by the Church against the Boston Globe, the Attorney General's Office, the Better Business Bureau. We considered every -- anyone and everyone an enemy of the Church. And Paulette Cooper. Paulette Cooper was a major -- a major task to work on for a long time. Beside -- just -- not just the fact that we had stolen her medical files, but a lot of other types of operations were done against Mrs. Cooper. 4-300 MR. SHOEMAKER: You had indicated that the captain of the group was Foster, Bill Foster -- MR. DARDANO: Yes MR. SHOEMAKER: -- who had been alluded to earlier. Who was over him? MR. DARDANO: He was run by Deac Finn, who was head of B 1, Bureau 1. MR. SHOEMAKER Bureau 1. And could you explain what you know of Bureau 1 to be? MR. DARDANO: Right. Bureau 1 is -- B 1, it's the collections -- the Information Bureau of the Guardian's Office. MR. SHOEMAKER: And who was over that person? MR. DARDANO: That would be the AG in Boston, the Assistant Guardian. MR. SHOEMAKER: And do you know where they went after they left Boston? MR. DARDANO: The individuals? MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes. MR. DARDANO: You're going to love this. Deac is down he - re working in Florida. I don't -- he's not in Clearwater, but he's within one of the missions close by. MR. SHOEMAKER: He's here in Florida --