2-41


as he could financially about paying things out. What is true: If
you're not receiving much money and you're putting a great deal
of -- see, we had a goal to clear the planet, and everybody was
being very dedicated about it.But another problem he had too,
then, of course, was health. Now, remember that psychiatry and
medicine was one of our major enemies and opponents. And, of
course, since Scientology Dianetics could cure and alleviate
anything and everything and had the answer to all of man's
problems, one did not go to doctors. Of course, one didn't have
enough money to anyway, but one did not go to doctors. And
people's health suffered a great deal. And there's quite a number
of people that I know personally that suffered a great deal

because of that.


MR. LECHER:
All right. one other question before I turn it over to my

colleagues.


Do you think that people who are in Clearwater who parade up and
down the street -- do you think they are dangerous to themselves

or to the people of Clearwater?


MR. DeWOLFE:

Are they dangerous to themselves? 


MR. LECHER:
Or to the people of Clearwater? 


2-42


MR. DeWOLFE:
Both. 

MR. LECHER:
Would you like to explain that? 

MR. DeWOLFE:
It's not really easy to explain. But -first of- all, they really
don't know what they're doing.. The average -- the average people
coming in the door to Scientology, until they get to the very,
very top, they don't realize that they buy step by step. They
start believing all of the various falsehoods, like, for
instance, L. Ron Hubbard's past, et cetera. And they can do --

they just don't know what they're doing. And -



MR. LECHER: Well, do you feel.-- if your father

should die of natural causes, would it what effect

would that have on the faithful?




MR. DeWOLFE:
I think they would I really have no way of predicting, but I

think that there's a couple

of quotes that my father used to say all the time that

really scares me to death. He at one time was also

talking about really taking on the world. And I remember

in 1958 an example which scared me to death and started

myself thinking -- he wanted me to devise a plan to

try to steal an H-bomb.


MR. LECHER: Your father wanted you to steal an H- bomb? 


2-43


MR. DeWOLFE:
Huh? 

MR. LECHER:
Your father wanted you to steal an H- bomb?

MR. DeWOLFE:
Yeah. He wanted me to 

MR. LECHER:
From whom? 

MR. D
EWOLFE: Anybody and everybody. We got -- I never got into it,
because.I said, "Oh, no, thank you." And sort of --
things went click in my head, and I said, "I don't -- I have
two children and I don't want to get involved in that." And

that was in late 1958.



MR. LECHER: He wanted you to steal the parts or the whole bomb?


MR. DeWOLFE:
No. He wanted a whole package. The but the -- as an example, one
of the things he said to </tt><tt><u>me.-was </u></tt><tt>that he
said it many, many times he said, "Don't call it murder,
call it suicide." And there's another quote, "I
connotate loyalty as the highest ethic." That means,
"Follow me." That means, "Total dedication, total
loyalty to me, L. Ron Hubbard."And that's the one-thing that

he put before any

and all everything. And -


MR. LECHER:
Because of 

MR. DeWOLFE:
So, anyway, that would lead me to 




2-44



believe that this -- knowing as much as I know about it, that -


MR. LECHER: I will not pursue that anymore at this point.One
other question: Is it -- do you think that the organization wants
to control our economic system?

MR. DeWOLFE:
Yes. 

MR. LECHER:
Thank you.I would like to ask Mr. Hatchett if he would like to
ask any 

MR. FLYNN:
Mayor, may the witness make one more statement about a particular

area before we get into questions?


MR. LECHER:
Certainly. 

MR. DeWOLFE:
Okay, sorry. I left Scientology November 23rd, 1959. 1 tried to
do one or another thing up till about 1962, and that didn't work
too well. So, then, I got a job.During the -- almost immediately
upon my leaving, on January 3rd, 1960, my father sent me a
telegram threatening to have me arrested for the stealing of a
mailing list. There were other threatening telegrams and
activities in which he was applying to me the standard tech of
attack and destroy, but he was applying


2-45


it to me. I helped him do it, and I thought this was kind of
incredible. But he turned around and tried to destroy me.He said
-- then, this happened in 1960 and kept up with a whole variety
of things, which are really unimportant, but -- at this juncture

and to the question.
So, I got very angry and upset because I had the children, and I
didn't -- the only thing I knew how to do in the world was
auditing, and I couldn't really -I had a hard time getting a job
because I didn't know how to do anything, except, you know, how
to be a ridiculous rock star jumping around, pushing students

around.


Anyway, I left originally, by the way, very which is very
important to this thing -- is because of my children.--
--I didn't want my children involved. I had had a
pretty well messed up, turned around childhood. And,the weekend
around November 23rd, my wife - twentyyears at the moment - she
just flatly -- she's the type of person that's very calm, cool,
and collected; she gets angry about once a year -- about once

every five years.


She flatly just came out and said, "Okay, you've got a
choice between me and the children or Scientology.




2-46


Make up your mind." This was on a Friday. And I said,
"Okay. It's you and the children." Zip, off we went.
And -so, that was one of the basic reasons I left, plus the fact
that I was getting very tired of being -of all of the scam and
the con and the fraud. And also -- even though I was L. Ron
Hubbard, Jr., I wasn't being paid much more than the people
struggling for seven and ten and $25.00 a week. I just didn't
have any money. Okay. That's one of the basic reasons -and which
I now have six children, five of them up and grown and all of
that.


In 1962, 1 got very angry and upset. All I wanted to do with
Scientology was to forget it, which was an impossible situation.
I've tried to do it for twentythree years. So, I decided,
"Well, the heck with it." It's one of- those things
that's, I believe, humanly impossible to either cover your past

or to turn a blind eye. to it or forget it.



I -- so, in 1962, 1 contacted law enforcement and

said, "Do you want to hear a few things?" And starting

off from there, I got involved in an E-Meter case that

the FDA brought against Scientology and, also, an IRS

case, and helping other lawyers, authors over the years.

And so, it's just a matter of disseminating information.

2-47


Okay.. 'Well, I got involved in the IRS case, and I don't quite
at this </tt></font><font color="#000000" size="3"
face="Times Roman"><i>instant have </i></font><font
color="#000000" size="3" face="Courier"><tt>the exact dates at my
fingertips. And they were really pretty upset that I had appeared
in public and. started spilling the beans, even though-. it was

highly limited about strictly financial affairs.


And so, about 1972, they got, they embroiled me into a sales

organization in Beverly Hills that I, in

the beginning, didn't realize was a Scientology front
organization that Bob Thomas had set up with an Alan Walters to suck me in and try to
nail my hide to the
barn door. At that -- this was,, I believe, in the early
part of 172. 1 would have to check around on dates to
give you the exact date.


But I walked there -- I walked in one night to - thinking it was
a sales' meeting, and it was Bob Thomas Bob
Thomas,by the way, at the time was the Guardian U.S.. - I mean,
he was the head of all of the Guardian offices in the United

States. That's what I understood at the time.


And the -- he starts telling me how I was such a terrible, awful
person, et cetera. I'm using very nice language which wasn't the
exact phrasing. I do feel constrained about that, about the fact
that he wanted




</tt><tt><u>2-48 </u></tt><tt>-


me to take back the testimony that I gave in the case. He wanted
me to recant all of the various things that I had said about
Scientology, which, up to that time, had been very honest,
truthful, and factual, and given under oath, as it is today,
which, by the way, since I left Scientology is something that I
consider to be quite valuable and I cherish a great deal. I'm
talking about the laws and the constitution, and I take my oath

as something very ser ious.


MR. LeCHER: You were the Founder's son and you were there since

the beginning and you had -




MR. DeWOLFE:

I would like to finish this. 


MR. LeCHER:
I'm sorry, sir. 



MR. DeWOLFE: But I just had to slow up a little bit because I do

get just slightly emotional about this.




MR. LeCHER:
Sorry to 






MR. DeWOLFE: That's all right. It's very important. 

So, anyway, Bob Thomas to make a long story

short or we'll be here until to make a long story

short, showed me photographs of my children going to

and from school. And he -- we got calls in the night.

My wife was scared to death with calls; strange people

would be looking through the window of our little house.

2-49


I believe at the time that I was working for Sales Training,
Incorporated, which was a thing about selling sales
courses in Los Angeles. And I didn't have -- I
didn't have any money, and I lived in a very small house. I think
the house was -- probably, if you put it all together, you could

fit, maybe, two of them in your chamber here.


And so, they wanted me to recant. I had refused. And then, he
brought in about how my father still loved me and how I should --
I shouldn't do such terrible things to dear, sweet, wonderful
Dad. And then, he --what happened was -- because they wanted me
to recant. And so, because I was under duress at the time because
I was scared stiff -there's a lot of things that happened in
Scientology that I haven't brought up at the hearing simply

because they are not really apropos to here.



And. I hadn't been out of Scientology really that

long, and it I didn't'know what the legal ramifica

tions were and I didn't want other things to get out

about I mean, I didn't -- I was scared of police, not

in the way they -- I was scared that somewhere along

the line, and throughout - the other things I did in the
fifties might be coming out and they might try to black




2-50


mail, which they did. And so, I signed a thing recanting the
testimony. if you carefully examine that, I don't think it has a

great deal of legal validity. But that occurred in 1971, '72.
This also had -- was in relationship to a Paulette Cooper'had

written a book -- had written a
-book, The Scandal of Scientology, and
getting involved in the writing of an article called "A Look
Into Scientology" or "One-Tenth of Scientology."
Also, there's a Robert Kaufman who wrote a book called inside Scientology,
and he was going through a lot of hell trying to get
it out. And evidently, Paulette Cooper was all involved and
getting sued in a real donnybrook with Scientology.
And I-had, I had read
the book. In fact, I found the book on the newsstand. I didn't
even know the
book existed until I saw it on the newsstand. I picked
it up and read it and, then, I called Paulette Cooper
and things led to another in my involvement in giving
her information. A Maurice Gerulius of Nuclear Press
wanted an introduction to the book, Inside Scientology,
by Robert Kaufman. And, of course, Scientology didn't want me to 




2-51


write the introduction. And, of course, they were
trying to destroy Paulette Cooper and they were trying to destroy
Maurice Gerulius, the publisher of the Nuclear Press, and
they-were trying to destroy.-Robert Kaufman... And then, they

were also trying to destroy me.
And then, in order to protect my wife and my children and quite
literally to protect them - I mean, the other people involved - I

signed the recant.




MR. LeCHER:
Thank you. Before this meeting started, we said that we might
like to take a break for five or ten minutes. Would you like to

take one now or -




MR. DeWOLFE:
That would be nice. 






MR. LeCHER: It would be nice to take a break? All right.
Before--w-e start with our questions, we'd like to take a short

five- or ten-minute break and then come right,back.




(Whereupon,
a recess was taken.) 



(Whereupon, the hearing resumed.) 





MR. LeCHER: Please take your seats, Commissioners, staff, and

consultants, and witnesses.


Commissioners, I know that we have a very interesting witness and

we'd like to question him at length, but

2-52


if we could keep it brief. We have many others to go and time may
be running out. And we also must quit early tonight because we
have a Commission meeting at five. So, we will be here for

virtually all day and all night.


As far as tonight, I would like, if possible, to quit at ten so

that we can get home and be here at nine tomorrow morning again.


So, I would ask if you would be brief and "-o the po.int --

nor do I want to stifle any questions you may want to ask, too.


we're going to lead off with Mr. Hatchett now, so everybody has a
chance to lead off first. We're going to alternate as the various
witnesses come before </tt></font><font color="#000000" size="2"




So, now,
I'd like to introduce to you Paul Hatchett the vice Mayor, who

will lead off.




RONALD
DeWOLFE, Resumed. 





MR. HATCHETT: Mr. DeWolfe, is it true you lost power in the

Church before you left?




MR. DeWOLFE:
I lost power in the Church? 





MR. HATCHETT: Lost power in the Church of Scientology before you
decided to leave? Was your power base




2-53



waning?


MR. DeWOLFE: No. 



MR. HATCHETT: You still had 

MR. DeWOLFE:

I was Executive Secretary of when

I left.


MR. HATCHETT: I read in the notes about an entry of your son's

trust fund in


MR. DeWOLFE: Well, my father believed that everything that my
grandfather and grandmother owned belonged to him. My grandfather
had set up a trust fund unbeknownst to me until he died and his
Will was probated - and, evidently, my father wanted it. It was
an educational trust fund so that my son, Leif, my oldest son,

could go to college. And it amounted to about ten, $12,000.00.


oh, evidently,
through my sister, they sent a poison pen letter to the insurance
company, saying I had- misappropriated the funds and I had
misspent the money and fouled up in various ways. And -- so, that

took a little bit of juggling around to sort things out.


But in the very beginning with the attorneys, it was a legal
matter. So, I had a very good attorney that handled all of the
estate problems, what have you, and lean on the matter. And, of

course, there was

2-54


the original trustees of the People's Bank in Burlington and, of
course, the insurance company and the probate court, the probate
court in Seattle, Washington. So, the whole thing.. I was -- it
was kept very legal and very proper and, in general, I handled

very little of, the money and the arrangements.


But anyway, it was just a matter to try to gain control of the
money or keep my son, Leif, from being able to use it for his

education, which he did use it for.


MR. HATCHETT: Well, the crux of my prior question -is it still in

force? Does your son still have benefit of the trust fund?


MR. DeWOLFE: No, no, no. It was only ten or $12,000.00, and he
had to work and we had to work to get him through college. He
graduated in -- college in less than four years with about a 3.95

grade average.


MR. HATCHETT: All right, thank you. I'm going to ask you a few
rapid fire questions. 

MR. DeWOLFE:
Sure. 

MR.
HATCHETT: Your father wrote from the top of his head you kept

emphasizing.


MR. DeWOLFE: Yes, correct. 

MR.
HATCHETT: A lot of fictional writing. 




2-55


MR. DeWOLFE: That's correct. 

MR.
HATCHETT: Apparently, you did the same. 

MR. DeWOLFE:

No, not throughout the period there.

I had written part of a book, as far as my own writing

is concerned. I wrote all. of the techniques and pro

cesses in a book which was published in England called

Creative Learning. That was a series of processes used
for -- on children in school.The fictional thing would be, for
instance, like, The History of Man, coming
up and creating the incidents, as I mentioned the clam, that
type-of thing. But I have written very little of anything after

Scientology.



MR. HATCHETT: All right, thank you. That satisfies me.
You mentioned, also, that -- I imagine, your father deserted you,
and you mentioned that he sent very little money back for food

and clothing.


MR. DeWOLFE: I'm sorry, I didn't quite hear that. 

MR.
HATCHETT: Your father sent very little money 

MR. DeWOLFE:
That's 

MR.
HATCHETT: -- for food and clothing. 

MR. DeWOLFE:
That's correct. 

MR.
HATCHETT: Did he desert the family; is that what you really said?




2-56


MR. DeWOLFE: He sent very little money or used very little money.
At one time he had a boat -- excuse me. He sold a story and I
believe it was about twentyfive hundred dollars. He went down to
the post office to get the check - and he was gone all day and we
couldn't figure out where he went - and he bought a yacht. And we
didn't have much food. As I said, my father's support came from
my mother and also came from my grandparents to a very great
extent. And it was pretty much of a hard scramble for money

throughout the thirties and the forties.


MR. HATCHETT: Did you ever have a desire to be number one in the

Church of Scientology order or hierarchy?




MR. DeWOLFE:
Sure; sure. 

MR.
HATCHETT: Sure? 

MR. DeWOLFE:
Yeah. 

MR.
HATCHETT: The reason I ask you all these questions: It would
appear to me there's a father and son rift, you know, a real

falling-out. And may this not be just a vendetta against Dad?


MR.
DeWOLFE:, No, no. 

MR.
HATCHETT: Why should I believe you? 

MR. DeWOLFE:
Well, first, there've been, like, 




2-57


twenty-three years under the bridge. The -- you must . realize
one thing about me is I'm the same person now as I was then,
except it's like I lived two different lives. Then, I loved what
I did, and I, also, now love what I do, which is -- I have -- I
have my wife and I have my children. That's what's become the

most important thing to me.



And it was a to put it in oversimplification,

it was a scientific excuse me, a science fiction --

a science fiction world, and I've come to appreciate

reality and truth a great deal. In those days, we

treated the constitution and the laws around like they

were toilet paper. And I've learned to appreciate those

a lot more recently.


And another thing, too, is that the truth and facts about
Scientology and L. Ron Hubbard are slowly and surely being
brought out by other people, also. In my own personal opinion, I
am even a superfluous being right here, right now because you
have enough witnesses, you have enough affidavits, you have
enough documentation - so does the federal government, so does
the state government - to certainly see that the facts and truth
of Scientology, Dianetics, and the life of L. Ron Hubbard come
out.




2-58


And it is -- and this is going to sound like kind of a
mealy-mouthed, hollow statement, but it's really quite true
because I do have the facts and truth in being able to stand up

and tell what I know.


But as an example on the life of L. Ron Hubbard, it's easily
documented, not through what I say but what other people say, by
bits and pieces. of his past, the papers, the documentation. So,

vendetta? No.



I've also learned another thing -- I'm sorry.

I've also learned another thing, which is that was

all very emotional about it in the early days after I

left and began to hate and what have you. But I've

learned that hate only does one thing-, which is consume

the person doing the hating. And so, I've absolutely

refused to hate him. And people can't understand this

man who has done all this stuff, how can his son not hate

him? I refuse to hate, because if I hate him, then, this

gives my children the right to hate me or my -- or other

people the right to hate me kind of thing.


So, those are all these heavy, negative emotions and feelings

I've been able to cut out.


MR. HATCHETT: My last question -- thank you. Do you know for a
fact whether your father is still living?



2-59

MR. DeWOLFE:
No. I have a -- I mean, I haven't seen his dead body in a
coffin.But over the years, we have written back and forth. He has
-- he kept a secret address down in Los Angeles that non-
Scientology types and family would write. I have it, if you wish
it; I don't think I have it with me, but it's a post office box
number. But over the years, all of a sudden, about -- I would say
somewhere between 1979 -- 1.975 to 1979 and even more recently,
some of the letters I've received -there's a complete change in
syntax. He has a very special way of stringing words together,
which, after reading umpteen million of themever since I've been
a kid, I can recognize. And just bits and pieces and that sort of
thing leads me to believ that he just possibly might be, but I

don't know.


MR. HATCHETT: Thank you very much. 

MR. LeCHER:

Mr. Shoemaker, do you have any questions?


MR. SHOEMAKER: Mr. DeWolfe, apparently, from what you've
indicated, many of the procedures which are currently used were
actually created in the time that you were still with your
father, and in here did it classify as Dianetics or else for the
Church of Scientology?




2-60




MR. DeWOLFE:
Yes, that's correct. 

MR.
SHOEMAKER: Did you -- were you - 

MR. DeWOLFE:
There's been little or no
change in the actual basis.


MR. SHOEMAKER: Could you briefly explain what the purpose of
auditing is, for example, how you came up with -not necessarily
you, but your father or whoever came up with the idea of

auditing?


MR. DeWOLFE: The -- as I said, auditing was a -is a term used in
accounting to -- you have to go back to the basic theory of
Dianetics as it was set up: any and all man's ills are mentally
caused, based. And it's based in what is called an engram, that
are -- that is, moments of pain in unconsciousness. So, auditing
would be the erradication of moments of pain in unconsciousness
and discomfort and et cetera in one's past and subconsciousness.

I'm talking about Dianetically at the moment.


MR. SHOEMAKER: Yes. 



MR. DeWOLFE: Dianetics. 





So, that is the basic modus operandi of it, the basics bf what

auditing is.


Auditing, physically, is basically - in the old day of Dianetics
- laying down on the auditing couch, somewha