Michael Garko Transcripts // June 11 2002 - AM session
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
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3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
6
7
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
8 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
9
10 Plaintiff,
11 vs. VOLUME 1
12 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
13 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14
Defendants.
15
_______________________________________/
16
17
18 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
19
CONTENTS: Testimony of Michael Garko.
20
DATE: June 11, 2002, morning session.
21
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
22 St. Petersburg, Florida.
23 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
24
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
25 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
8
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
9 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
10 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
11 Organization.
12 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN
RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD
17 740 Broadway at Astor Place
New York, NY 10003-9518
18 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
Organization.
19
MR. LANSING C. SCRIVEN
20 442 W Kennedy Blvd Ste 280
Tampa Florida 33606-1464
21 Attorney for Michael Garko.
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1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 MICHAEL GARKO 8 11
DIRECT Mr. Weinberg 9 22
4 Recess 41 12
Reporter's Certificate 42 1
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1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:27 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: Good morning.
3 Okay. The matter that Mr. Howie brought up
4 yesterday regarding a one-page -- page 6, I guess,
5 to Mr. Jonas's notes -- I really can't resolve that
6 without speaking to Mr. Howie. Obviously, I can't
7 do it on the record. It would destroy what he's
8 asked. So I'm asking permission from both sides to
9 have an in camera hearing with Mr. Howie, alone, off
10 the record, to ask him a couple questions about this
11 one page.
12 Any objection?
13 MR. LIROT: No objection, your Honor.
14 MR. WEINBERG: No objection.
15 THE COURT: All right. We'll do that when he
16 comes. So other than that, the notes have been made
17 part of the record, and I'll address that one issue
18 at the right time.
19 Madam Clerk, here are a couple things. I
20 think -- this is the fourth affidavit.
21 What is -- this fourth affidavit; that's just
22 been filed. That's not been yet made an exhibit in
23 this hearing, has it?
24 MR. DANDAR: That's correct.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. It's part of the record,
5
1 but --
2 THE COURT: It's part of the record, but it's
3 not an exhibit in this hearing. I assume somebody
4 will make it an exhibit at some time. But it's --
5 just for now, it can just go in that section, "other
6 things," but not in evidence.
7 This is in evidence. This is the third
8 affidavit. But I think I have another one that's
9 all marked up. And if I do, that one -- I don't
10 need it.
11 THE CLERK: Okay.
12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I have yesterday --
13 well, no. I have June 7th, morning and afternoon
14 session.
15 THE COURT: Okay. Great. Thank you.
16 Yesterday I noted that the document called The
17 Missing Ingredient, which is an HCO policy letter --
18 I show that in evidence, but I know that the
19 policy -- I'm probably saying this wrong -- HCO
20 bulletin, Search and Discovery, is not in evidence
21 yet. Is that right?
22 Okay. Madam Clerk --
23 THE CLERK: Yes, ma'am.
24 THE COURT: -- these then are evidence. Keep
25 those out. I'm sure we'll be using it. This will
6
1 go in the not-evidence. Might be moved, might not.
2 But you know, that section you're keeping for me.
3 Do you want to deal with this filing? You
4 indicated yesterday you objected.
5 MR. DANDAR: I don't know what it is, Judge.
6 What --
7 THE COURT: It's the -- it's the filing that
8 dealt with anti-Scientology Internet sites supported
9 by the estate.
10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. I -- I object to that.
11 THE COURT: I'm not sure really, in light of
12 how they've done it, how you can object. It's a
13 filing. In other words, it's not yet in evidence.
14 It's --
15 MR. DANDAR: Oh --
16 THE COURT: -- a filing.
17 MR. DANDAR: Oh, no.
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. I object to the evidence
20 part.
21 THE COURT: Well, it's not in evidence.
22 MR. DANDAR: Right.
23 THE COURT: Well, I show this as a filing, and
24 there's no objections to a filing.
25 MR. DANDAR: Right. Right.
7
1 THE COURT: Okay. Now, the one last thing I
2 had was the little booklet which I show marked as
3 184, The Way to Happiness?
4 MR. MOXON: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Was this introduced?
6 MR. MOXON: Yes, it was.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, it was.
8 THE COURT: Okay. Madam Clerk, I don't know
9 how you're going to deal with that, an envelope or
10 whatever, but that's in evidence.
11 And with that, I'm ready.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Dr. Michael Garko.
13 THE COURT: What's the deal here? We're going
14 to have him on for how long?
15 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Scriven -- who -- this is
16 Lance Scriven -- is his lawyer. And Mr. Scriven has
17 advised me, when I subpoenaed Dr. Garko yesterday,
18 that he has an 11:00 hearing in Clearwater, which
19 means he'll have to leave sometime between 10:15 and
20 10:30.
21 THE COURT: All right.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know how long it takes
23 to drive there.
24 It's not an excessively long hearing.
25 THE COURT: Come on, Dr. Garko, you step up
8
1 here.
2 MR. WEINBERG: He'll be back at 1:00 or so.
3 THE COURT: All right. So then we'll put
4 Dr. Garko on in the afternoon?
5 MR. WEINBERG: And we -- back on to finish.
6 And we have a fill-in -- a relatively short --
7 fill-in witness we can go right to right after
8 Dr. -- right after Mr. Scriven leaves.
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 _______________________________________
11 MICHAEL GARKO,
12 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
13 and testified as follows:
14 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, for the record,
15 Dr. Garko has been the trial consultant for a number
16 of years, and as a result, we would consider him an
17 adverse witness, and I would like some latitude if
18 necessary with regard to cross examining him. I
19 don't know if that'll be necessary, but if it is
20 necessary, I will ask that latitude.
21 MR. DANDAR: And as a trial consultant, we are
22 invoking work product, attorney-client privilege on
23 all matters unless it occurred with third parties
24 outside the trial team.
25 THE COURT: And that naturally is not waived.
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1 However, I may -- you know, you may have to pipe up
2 an objection.
3 But you understand what he's saying?
4 MR. WEINBERG: I do. And I told Mr. Dandar
5 before that my questions I think are all limited to
6 Mr. Minton, and his communications --
7 THE COURT: All right.
8 MR. WEINBERG: -- with him.
9 THE COURT: And so those should not involve
10 work product.
11 MR. WEINBERG: It should not.
12 THE COURT: But Mr. Dandar, you listen
13 carefully, because this is going to be for you to
14 raise.
15 As far as his being an adverse witness, I think
16 it would go without saying that he would be
17 considered, under the rules, a witness you can lead,
18 so you may ask leading questions.
19 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
20 THE COURT: That's really all that is all
21 about.
22 DIRECT EXAMINATION
23 BY MR. WEINBERG:
24 Q You are here under subpoena today, Dr. Garko?
25 A That's correct.
10
1 Q Okay. And how are you employed?
2 Well, can you state and spell your name for the
3 record?
4 A Sure. My name is Michael Garko, M-i-c-h-a-e-l,
5 G-a-r-k-o.
6 Q And how are you employed?
7 A I'm self-employed.
8 Q In what kind of business?
9 A I am a -- I'm president of a trial and jury
10 consultant firm called Trial Strategies, Inc., based in
11 Tampa, Florida.
12 Q And how long have you had that business?
13 A I've been a trial consultant about seven, eight
14 years, I guess. The company was incorporated maybe four or
15 five years ago, somewhere in there.
16 Q Can you briefly tell us what your educational
17 background is?
18 A Okay. I have a bachelor's degree in humanities
19 from the University of South Florida. I have a bachelor's
20 degree in mass communications with a speciality in public
21 relations from USF. I have a master's degree in
22 communication. And I have a PhD in communication theory and
23 research from Florida State University, which was awarded in
24 1988.
25 Q Now, Dr. Garko, prior to having your trial
11
1 consultant business, were you a professor at -- at USF?
2 A I was.
3 Q And how long were you there and what did you --
4 A I -- I had a relationship with USF beginning in
5 1978 as a graduate student. When I left -- when I got my
6 degree, when I was awarded my master's degree, I left and
7 went to Florida State and returned to USF as an adjunct
8 professor, and continued to work on my dissertation. So
9 that would have taken me all the way from, you know, 1978,
10 with a hiatus at Florida State -- I would say I was at USF
11 maybe eight, nine years --
12 Q Okay.
13 A -- somewhere in there.
14 Q Did there come a time when you were engaged as a
15 trial consultant or the trial consultant for the plaintiff
16 in the Lisa McPherson case?
17 A I was.
18 Q And do you know approximately when that was?
19 A Somewhere in 19 -- maybe end of '98, beginning of
20 '99, somewhere in there.
21 Q Okay. Now, Dr. Garko, did you meet with Ken
22 Dandar, Stacy Brooks and Bob Minton, in Mr. Dandar's office
23 in the fall of 1999, where the adding of David Miscavige to
24 the case, to the wrongful death case, was discussed?
25 A Yes.
12
1 Q Where did that meeting take place?
2 A In Mr. Dandar's office.
3 Q Who was present at that meeting?
4 A Well --
5 Q Well, who was present for the discussion that you
6 just --
7 A Okay. I would not consider it a meeting.
8 And this is a different interaction than is
9 outlined in Mr. Minton's affidavit.
10 But present were myself, Mr. Dandar, Ms. Brooks
11 and Mr. Minton. And Jesse Prince was not there, as alleged
12 in Mr. -- in Mr. Minton's affidavit.
13 Q Okay. Where did the meeting -- where did this --
14 what would you describe --
15 A I would describe it as --
16 Well, if I give you some context, Mr. Minton and
17 Ms. Brooks came by Mr. Dandar's office. They did that from
18 time to time. They came by, it was like a visit. And we
19 sat in the conference room, talking casually about various
20 things. And I wouldn't consider it a formal meeting with
21 some driven agenda, you know, with some specific purpose in
22 mind. It was just a conversation.
23 Q Okay.
24 THE COURT: What did you say, with no driven
25 agenda?
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1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. No -- no agenda, no formal
2 agenda, no, you know, pre- -- pre-set agenda; that
3 this was a scheduled meeting and we were going to
4 discuss some sort of trial strategy or issue.
5 THE COURT: That was not --
6 THE WITNESS: That was not --
7 THE COURT: -- what you perceived this.
8 THE WITNESS: That's right. I just viewed it,
9 your Honor, as a -- a visit, and we were having a
10 conversation in Mr. Dandar's conference room.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. WEINBERG:
13 Q Now, tell us what was discussed, as you best can
14 recall, in the presence of Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar, about
15 whether or not to add David Miscavige as a defendant.
16 A The thing that I recall most prominently -- and I
17 don't know how this topic was introduced, but Mr. Miscavige
18 came up, and the issue of adding Mr. Miscavige as a
19 defendant in the wrongful death case. I do recall at one
20 point where I gave, for lack of a better term, a speech,
21 sort of, articulating my view, which was not to add David
22 Miscavige; that I thought it was a bad idea.
23 And we -- at that point in time, Mr. Miscavige --
24 we had already gone to court and approached Judge Moody with
25 a motion to add him. I think that motion was denied. I am
14
1 not sure whether we were past the second motion where
2 Mr. Miscavige was --
3 THE COURT: Hang on just a second. What is
4 that? What's happening?
5 THE BAILIFF: I think it's percussive sounds
6 from the microphone.
7 THE COURT: Oh, okay.
8 THE WITNESS: Am I too close?
9 THE BAILIFF: Yes.
10 THE COURT: I thought maybe somebody was
11 banging on the ceiling.
12 A And I'm not sure if at that point in time, when I
13 was articulating my displeasure with this, Mr. Miscavige had
14 been added or Judge Moody gave permission. But it was
15 somewhere between the first motion and the second motion
16 perhaps.
17 But I -- I expressed my view that it was a bad
18 idea to do it.
19 BY MR. WEINBERG:
20 Q Now, tell us what you said in your speech about
21 why it was a bad idea to add Mr. Miscavige.
22 MR. DANDAR: Objection.
23 THE COURT: What?
24 MR. DANDAR: Work product.
25 THE COURT: Can't do it 'cause Mr. Minton was
15
1 there. So overruled.
2 MR. DANDAR: Oh, all right.
3 BY MR. WEINBERG:
4 Q Mr. Minton was there --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- correct?
7 A Yes, he was.
8 Q And Mr. Dandar was there.
9 A Yes, he was.
10 Q Tell us what you said, the reason for it.
11 A I can't give you my exact words. I can give you
12 the three reasons that I always articulated.
13 One, that I didn't believe there was enough
14 evidence for, to use the metaphor, a smoking gun to add
15 Mr. Miscavige as a defendant, given the fifth amended
16 complaint or the fourth amended complaint, and the idea that
17 he knew about Lisa McPherson being in the hotel and gave the
18 order to just let her die. The only evidence that existed
19 at the time, or evidence that would come into existence,
20 would be the affidavit of Jesse Prince. But I expressed the
21 view that there wasn't a letter, an e-mail or witness who
22 had firsthand knowledge about Mr. Miscavige's intentions.
23 So I felt that was reason number one.
24 Reason number two --
25 THE COURT: Wait a second now. You didn't
16
1 believe there was enough evidence for a smoking gun?
2 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
3 THE COURT: What is that? You're talking
4 evidence --
5 THE WITNESS: Right. I -- yes, your Honor. I
6 didn't -- when I say smoking gun, I mean there
7 wasn't a letter, for example, from Mr. Miscavige to
8 somebody at the Ft. Harrison, saying, "Let Lisa
9 McPherson die." And I felt that without that kind
10 of evidence, that it was imprudent to add
11 Mr. Miscavige.
12 A Second reason was that I didn't think we would be
13 able to -- to serve Mr. Miscavige. Would be difficult to
14 find him and to serve him.
15 I'm trying to think of the third reason.
16 BY MR. WEINBERG:
17 Q Did it have anything to do with the -- the reason
18 that Judge Moody denied it the first time around, the
19 contract?
20 A Oh, that's right.
21 At some point, Mr. Dandar advised me and --
22 MR. DANDAR: Wait. Wait. "At some point." He
23 can only talk if it's in the presence of another
24 party.
25 THE COURT: That's right. So if it's at some
17
1 other point --
2 THE WITNESS: All right.
3 THE COURT: -- anything that went on between
4 you --
5 THE WITNESS: All right.
6 THE COURT: -- and Mr. Dandar cannot be talked
7 about.
8 A There was a contract or an agreement between
9 Mr. Dandar and the Church of Scientology not to add parties.
10 I'm not a lawyer. I didn't -- I couldn't advise
11 him as to how that contract could be circumvented. But I
12 felt it was a legal impediment, and for that reason I
13 thought it was problematic to add Mr. Miscavige.
14 So those are the three reasons that I gave along
15 the way, and that day, as to why Mr. Miscavige should not be
16 added.
17 BY MR. WEINBERG:
18 Q Did Ms. Brooks say anything that you can recall
19 during the meeting?
20 A Yes. And this is why I remembered this particular
21 interaction.
22 Because as soon as I had finished articulating my
23 position, Ms. Brooks piped up without hesitation and said,
24 "And why did you add him, Ken?" And I remember sort of
25 sitting back and thinking, if I may, "What the hell is she
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1 doing?" Because it was Ms. Brooks's idea to add David
2 Miscavige. And I was puzzled as to why she said that. And
3 I -- I often thought of it after this interaction. I
4 thought -- I was just bewildered by that and I couldn't
5 understand it.
6 Q Do you recall what if anything Mr. Minton said or
7 did during this meeting?
8 A He didn't say too much, in his very typical
9 fashion. He was quiet, somewhat aloof, and just sort of sat
10 there. He was sitting to my right at the end of the table,
11 just listening, and didn't say much.
12 Q Where do you remember the people were? You just
13 described where Mr. Minton was. Where was -- where were
14 you, Mr. Dandar, and Ms. Brooks?
15 A I was sitting at the head of the table.
16 Mr. Minton was to my right toward the end of the table.
17 Ms. Brooks was sitting to my left toward the middle of the
18 table. And Ken was sitting to my left -- immediate left,
19 sort of in the corner of the table.
20 Q Is this -- which office was this in?
21 A It was in Mr. -- Mr. Dandar's office on Kennedy
22 Boulevard.
23 Q So that's -- that's the new -- the newer office --
24 and that's the new --
25 A That was the office that was moved into after he
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1 had -- we left his two-story office building, that he had
2 sold.
3 Q Now, was there -- do you recall any discussions
4 about funding during this meeting that Mr. Minton and
5 Mr. Dandar and you and Ms. Brooks were at?
6 A I do.
7 Q Tell us about those.
8 A I didn't have much access to Mr. Minton, and I --
9 that was by design. From my point of view, I felt it was
10 improper for me to try to communicate with him without the
11 permission of Mr. Dandar or without -- without Mr. Dandar
12 being present. So anytime Mr. Minton was around or the
13 opportunity availed itself, I would try to do my best in an
14 indirect way to persuade him to continue to fund the case.
15 And that particular day, I recall mentioning to
16 him that it was necessary for us to be doing certain things
17 in the case, and that would require funding, and if he could
18 just, you know, sort of keep that in the back of his mind.
19 And I was trying to just sort of apprise him of the need for
20 the case to be funded. And that was my polite way of asking
21 him to continue to fund the case.
22 Q Do you remember any particular projects that you
23 had discussed with Mr. Minton?
24 A My recollection -- there were a couple of things I
25 might have mentioned. I think I mentioned a accident
20
1 reconstruction that we wanted to do, I believe. I think
2 I -- I mentioned that. And possibly some jury research in
3 the future.
4 And it was just by way of giving him some idea
5 that, you know, the money is being used to fund projects,
6 not -- and it was important for him to continue to fund the
7 case, 'cause it was necessary.
8 Q In fact, the accident reconstruction was done
9 during 2000, wasn't it?
10 A I believe it was, yes.
11 Q Now, do you have a good recollection of this
12 discussion that you've just described, where Mr. Minton,
13 Ms. Brooks and yourself, along with Mr. Dandar, were
14 present?
15 A I have a recollection of those two things that
16 I -- about which I just testified: That is, the -- my -- my
17 argument as to why we should not add David Miscavige, and my
18 attempt to persuade Mr. Minton to continue funding the case.
19 Other than that, I don't have much of a recollection of
20 anything else. That meeting was -- I -- it was casual. You
21 know, again, it was casual.
22 Q Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Minton
23 in Mr. Dandar's presence where Mr. Minton talked in terms of
24 utilizing the services of Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks more in
25 the case?
21
1 A Not to any great extent that I can recall.
2 Maybe -- maybe Mr. Minton might have mentioned something
3 like, you know, "You should try to use Stacy and Jesse
4 more," or something like that. But beyond that, I never
5 heard any exchange between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar about
6 how he should use Jesse or Stacy per Mr. Minton's
7 instructions. I never heard any kind of interaction like
8 that.
9 Q Are you privy to -- were you privy to Mr. Dandar's
10 telephone conversations with -- with Mr. Minton?
11 A Sometimes I was, sometimes I wasn't. I mean, just
12 depends.
13 Mr. Dandar, for the most part, spoke pretty freely
14 in front of me. I think he trusted me pretty explicitly.
15 And he would have conversations with Mr. Minton from time to
16 time on the phone, not -- at least in my presence. Not all
17 the time or very often, but -- and there were other times
18 I'm sure he spoke with him outside of my presence.
19 Q Did you ever -- were you ever at the LMT offices
20 with Mr. Dandar when you -- when you all visited with
21 Mr. Minton?
22 THE COURT: I'm sorry. What was that question
23 again?
24 BY MR. WEINBERG:
25 Q Were you ever at the LMT, the Lisa McPherson Trust
22
1 offices over in Clearwater, with Mr. Dandar, when you all
2 were -- you visited with Mr. Minton?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And during any of those discussions, did the --
5 did it ever come up, that you can recall, that you all
6 should be utilizing Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks more?
7 A I don't have a clear recollection of that or --
8 not that I can remember.
9 Q Now, fast-forwarding, did you meet with Mr. Minton
10 and Ms. Brooks, along with Mr. Dandar, in New Hampshire in
11 February of this year?
12 A I did.
13 Q What was the purpose of that trip?
14 A I know what my purpose was.
15 Q What was your purpose of that trip?
16 A To persuade Mr. Minton to continue to fund the
17 case.
18 Q Okay. Why did you go?
19 A Because Mr. Dandar --
20 This may be privileged.
21 I went because I felt I could assist Mr. Dandar in
22 trying to persuade Mr. Minton to continue to fund the case.
23 At that point in time, I viewed the case to be in
24 sort of -- lack of a better way of expressing it, financial
25 desperation, and I wanted to go to try and persuade
23
1 Mr. Minton to continue to fund the case. I felt that I had
2 some credibility with him. I believed that he, to some
3 extent, respected me and trusted me. I never gave him a
4 reason not to. So I felt that I could try and persuade him.
5 Q How long were you in New Hampshire?
6 A We were there two days, I think. A Saturday and a
7 Sunday.
8 Q Can you describe for us what occurred in New
9 Hampshire on the first day?
10 A Mr. Dandar and I arrived at the airport.
11 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks picked us up. We drove to a
12 supermarket, did some shopping, get things for dinner. We
13 then went to Mr. Minton's home, unloaded the truck. And we
14 then went and sat in the kitchen and began just to have, you
15 know, casual conversations.
16 Q And did something memorable occur that first
17 evening?
18 A Yes.
19 Q Can you describe what -- what occurred?
20 A I recall sitting at the kitchen table with
21 Mr. Dandar. And Mr. Minton was sitting off to my left in a
22 chair by himself. And all of a sudden, he began, in a very
23 emotional way, talking to Mr. Dandar and saying things that
24 I -- were a bit startling to me.
25 Q Tell us what he said, and how -- how he was
24
1 acting.
2 A He looked at Mr. Dandar -- and you know -- and my
3 recollection is this sort of came out of the blue, too. I
4 mean, that's why it caught me off guard.
5 He looked at Mr. Dandar and said that in
6 essence -- I -- I don't know exactly his words, but the
7 message was, "I don't trust you; I don't trust the estate; I
8 don't trust Dell Liebreich. You have betrayed me," in
9 essence. And continued to become more and more emotional to
10 the extent that he began weeping, and was going on about
11 that he can't do this anymore; that it was too much pressure
12 on him and his family.
13 And I became very concerned. And he -- he -- as
14 he continued to talk, he became more and more emotional, and
15 started -- I don't know -- to -- looked like he was falling
16 apart, which prompted me to get up. I went over and held
17 him. And I started to get choked up because I -- I was
18 moved by his pain. I mean, he -- this was a man in a lot of
19 emotional pain. And I didn't know, you know, I -- really,
20 what to do other than to try and calm him down and keep my
21 composure.
22 And he did.
23 And Mr. Dandar, of course, became upset and
24 concerned and asked Mr. Minton, "What are you talking about?
25 What do you mean?"
25
1 Q And what did Mr. Minton say? Did he explain what
2 he was so upset about?
3 A He went on about -- there are two things that come
4 to mind. One, that this was -- that Scientology, the Church
5 of Scientology had put a lot of pressure on him and he was
6 now caught up in a lot of litigation, and that was just too
7 much for him to deal with.
8 And the other thing that really was at the heart
9 of the matter, at least as I -- I see it, was, on the
10 Internet, there was this personal attack on Mr. Minton by
11 these various individuals, whom I do not know. And their
12 names were mentioned at the time and I didn't know them. I
13 don't know these people. I don't read -- I never go to the
14 Internet and read these posts.
15 Q Was one of the names Deana Holmes?
16 A That sounds familiar.
17 Q And did Patricia Greenway's name come up?
18 A It did.
19 Q Go ahead. I'm sorry to interrupt.
20 A And he went on about -- Mr. Minton went on about
21 how he felt betrayed that this attack was being launched
22 against him, and he was holding Ken responsible for that.
23 He said that these people were doing this at his behest.
24 And Mr. Dandar told him that was not the case, and insisted
25 that was not the case, and tried to convince him of that.
26
1 And Mr. Minton just kept going on and on about
2 that. He felt -- he said that -- you know, all these
3 horrible things that were being said about him were not
4 true, and it was causing him great emotional pain.
5 That's not his -- those are his -- those are not
6 his words, but that's how I interpreted the sum and
7 substance of his communication or his interaction with me
8 and Mr. Dandar.
9 Both Mr. Dandar and I were upset to see him upset.
10 Q Did he express the opinion that these attacks were
11 being initiated by Mr. Dandar in order to force him to give
12 more funding? Was that the message?
13 A If you read between the lines, you would -- you
14 would -- you would walk away with that.
15 You know, there was a great deal of concern about
16 funding for this case, and it was on my mind all the time.
17 I mean, I was preoccupied. It was almost a distraction.
18 So -- the answer to your question is, yeah.
19 Q Did he calm down eventually?
20 A He -- yes. He eventually calmed down.
21 I remember standing there. And I put my arms
22 around him. And he was weeping. And you know, I -- I just
23 tried to say to him, "Everything's going to be okay. You
24 know, it's going to be all right," and "Just," you know,
25 "just try to," you know, "take a breath and pull yourself
27
1 together." And he did.
2 Q Do you recall --
3 And then you all had dinner, I take it?
4 A Yeah. Ms. Brooks -- it was a pretty good
5 dinner -- made a nice dinner. We were -- sat -- we remained
6 in the kitchen. She continued to work at the -- at the
7 counter there, kitchen counter or by the sink. And she was
8 doing whatever -- she made a lovely dinner for us.
9 Q Now, do you recall any discussions that first
10 evening, after Mr. Minton calmed down, about whether he
11 would give more money?
12 A I believe that evening or the next morning -- and
13 I'm unclear about this. And I remember this because I had
14 this terrible sinking feeling when he said it. He was
15 sitting at the dining room table at this time. And he
16 looked -- I was sitting right across from him. And Mr.
17 Dandar and he were talking about funding the case.
18 And Mr. Minton looked at him and said, without
19 hesitation and very, very succinctly, "I am not going to
20 fund this case anymore."
21 Q Now, the next day -- whether that conversation was
22 the next morning or that night, after that conversation, do
23 you recall, on the second day that Mr. Dandar went over the
24 Fifth Amendment -- the questions that Mr. Minton had taken
25 the Fifth Amendment on?
28
1 A Yes. Those --
2 Are you referring to the questions that Judge
3 Schaeffer ordered Mr. Minton to answer?
4 Q Yes. There was 80-some-odd questions.
5 A Yes.
6 Q Now, how did it come about that Mr. Dandar sat
7 down with Mr. Minton to discuss what his answers would be to
8 these questions that he had taken the Fifth Amendment on?
9 A I'm unclear about that. I'm not sure how we
10 actually got into the living room to do -- to talk about
11 that and to engage in that process.
12 I think Mr. Minton -- I think how it got -- became
13 initiated was Mr. Minton was expressing a lot of concern
14 again -- I mean, this was a theme that was developed over
15 the two days; the theme being that Mr. Minton was feeling
16 overwhelmed with the litigation, the various litigations
17 that he became implicated in, and that he felt burdened to
18 try and answer -- you know, to deal with all these
19 depositions and hearings and court cases. And he kept going
20 over that.
21 And I think the issue of him having to deal with
22 this particular set of questions that Judge Schaeffer
23 ordered him to answer came up, and either I or Mr. Dandar or
24 both of us said, "Well, let's go over the questions." I
25 mean, "Let's talk about the questions. Let's see what it is
29
1 that, you know, you're so concerned about that you had to
2 take the Fifth Amendment."
3 Q Did you all have the questions with you?
4 A I don't think -- no. I think Mr. Minton had the
5 questions.
6 Q Okay. And was there -- before -- I mean, was
7 there a discussion with Mr. Minton by you --
8 You were there when this process was going on?
9 A I was there for most of it. There were three or
10 four times when -- I know I remember going to the kitchen to
11 get something to eat, coming back in. I went back out to
12 get something else to eat or drink, made some tea. I think
13 I went to the bathroom twice. But I was -- and I remember
14 standing by the fireplace. But I think I was there for
15 the -- the majority of the process.
16 Q All right. Now, was there a discussion with
17 Mr. Minton as to whether it would be more appropriate for
18 him to be meeting with his own lawyer to discuss what his
19 answers would be to questions he had asserted the Fifth
20 Amendment on?
21 A I don't recall that. I do recall saying something
22 else that -- and I -- Mr. Dandar and I both said something
23 about Mr. Minton needed better legal counsel, and that he
24 needed to have lawyers that would represent him better in
25 court. Because you know, the position that he was in now
30
1 was certainly problematic for him. And I just felt that --
2 and Mr. Dandar felt the same way; that he needed better
3 lawyers.
4 Q At that point, his lawyer was Mr. Merrett --
5 A Yes.
6 Q -- down in Florida?
7 A Yes.
8 Q And did you all give some recommendations to
9 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks as to lawyers that they could hire
10 in Florida?
11 A I think Mr. Dandar had two good recommendations.
12 Q And those were?
13 A Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan, I believe his name is.
14 Q Now --
15 A And I -- Mr. Weinberg, I'm not sure if Mr. Dandar
16 gave those recommendations there at that -- at that time or
17 if that occurred subsequently, when -- after we got home.
18 But I think it was the latter. But that ultimately
19 happened.
20 And Mr. Dandar gave, in my opinion, good advice to
21 Mr. Minton.
22 Q Now, do you recall a series of questions that
23 Mr. Minton had taken the Fifth Amendment on, concerning
24 funds that were transferred from -- on Operation Clambake to
25 the LMT?
31
1 A I -- I -- yes, I have a -- I have a recollection.
2 Q All right. And -- and do you recall when you all
3 went over -- Mr. Dandar went over those questions with
4 Mr. Minton, what Mr. Minton's response was as to the source
5 of the funds?
6 A I have a vague recollection.
7 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I'm kind of confused.
8 These are questions that are being discussed up in
9 New Hampshire that he had taken the Fifth Amendment
10 on?
11 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
12 THE COURT: And I had compelled him to answer?
13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
14 THE COURT: Okay.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach?
16 THE COURT: Sure.
17 MR. WEINBERG: This is Defense Exhibit 154
18 which is in evidence. It's the -- it's the motion
19 with the questions. And then you did an order
20 ordering to answer the questions.
21 THE COURT: Right.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q But if I could just show you, Dr. Garko, do you
24 remember having something like this, where the questions
25 were -- do you know if this is the pleading you all had?
32
1 A I don't know. Mr. Dandar had a document, and I
2 believe Mr. Minton gave Mr. Dandar the document, and
3 Mr. Dandar was reading the questions --
4 Q On page --
5 A -- to --
6 Q I'm sorry.
7 On page 11 of this document, there is a question,
8 "Do you know what the source of Operation Clambake funds --"
9 A Yes.
10 Q And -- and --
11 A Do I recall the answer to that?
12 Q Yes.
13 A I don't.
14 Q Do you recall any discussion about --
15 Well, tell us what you do recall.
16 A I just recall -- well, there's two things I
17 recall.
18 Number one --
19 THE COURT: What number is that, just so I have
20 it?
21 MR. WEINBERG: 154. It's Defense Exhibit 1 --
22 THE COURT: I mean is there a number in the --
23 MR. FUGATE: Question --
24 THE COURT: -- question number?
25 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, I'm sorry. Hold on. I've
33
1 got to go back to the page. I think I said 7, but
2 let me look.
3 7.
4 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Page 11.
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 A Two things I recall about the process and about
8 the questions generally, is I felt that, as I listened to
9 Mr. Minton give his responses to the questions, I -- I was
10 sort of confused as to why he would ever plead the Fifth
11 Amendment on them, because I felt his responses were rather
12 benign, and I was perplexed as to, why would he take the
13 Fifth?
14 With respect to money, I just recall Mr. Minton at
15 one point -- Mr. Dandar read a question. I don't recall
16 which question it was. But Mr. Minton -- it dealt with who
17 was the source of some particular funds. And Mr. Minton
18 gave an answer like -- some peculiar answer, like the fat
19 man or something like that. And I'm thinking to myself,
20 "What the hell is that?" You know, "Who's the fat man?"
21 And Mr. Dandar looked at Mr. Minton and said something to
22 the effect, you know, "Bob, come on. You can't -- that's an
23 inappropriate answer. You can't give that kind of answer to
24 the court. I mean, you've got to give a better answer than
25 that."
34
1 BY MR. WEINBERG:
2 Q Was there any response from Mr. Minton?
3 A He said something -- I don't remember what it was.
4 But Mr. Dandar proceeded through the questions, would ask
5 the question, and Mr. Minton would give the answer. It took
6 a while for that to happen. But you know, Mr. Dandar
7 didn't --
8 I'm moving beyond the scope of your question.
9 I'll stop.
10 Q Did -- do you know how long -- do you have an
11 estimate as to how long you all spent, or Mr. Dandar spent
12 with Mr. Minton that morning, going over the questions?
13 A 45 minutes, 50 minutes. Maybe somewhere in there.
14 An hour on the outside.
15 'Cause you know, we had -- as I said, I went in
16 the kitchen, got something to eat. And it wasn't this sort
17 of relentless, "We're going to go through this." It was
18 more relaxed than that. So it took a while. And it was --
19 Q And where did you all do this?
20 A In Mr. Minton's living room.
21 Q And was Ms. Brooks present or not?
22 A She was.
23 Q Now, during that --
24 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Just one quick
25 question.
35
1 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
2 THE COURT: Was she there continuously, or like
3 you, in and out, if you remember?
4 THE WITNESS: If I -- your Honor, I -- I think
5 that she may have gotten up maybe once or twice
6 perhaps to go to the restroom, I think, but she was
7 there most of the time.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 BY MR. WEINBERG:
10 Q Did you -- during this weekend, particularly the
11 second day, you know, after the emotional episode with
12 Mr. Minton and --
13 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I don't
14 know who this is.
15 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. That's Mr. Thomas
16 Haverty.
17 THE COURT: Okay.
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. I should have
19 announced that to the court.
20 THE COURT: All right.
21 BY MR. WEINBERG:
22 Q During -- during this time that you were there in
23 New Hampshire, did you overhear any discussions or
24 conversations between Mr. Dandar and Mr. Minton about money,
25 about getting more money and where the money might be coming
36
1 from? And if so, can you tell us what you remember was
2 being said and what your reaction was to it?
3 A I do remember conversations about money and
4 funding.
5 Mr. Dandar -- despite Mr. Minton's assertion that
6 he's no longer going to fund this case, Mr. Dandar still
7 wanted to know if there were other ways to fund the case,
8 and if there were other people that could fund the case.
9 And they were talking about -- talking about that. No
10 specific names were mentioned, no particular individual that
11 I could say, Mr. Jones or Mr. Smith or something like that.
12 It was generally perhaps people from Europe might be able to
13 fund the case --
14 Q Any first names mentioned?
15 A Not that I recall, first name.
16 Q How about Fred?
17 A Maybe. I think that might have been mentioned.
18 Q And did you -- when you --
19 THE COURT: What is that, a maybe? Maybe --
20 THE WITNESS: I think -- I think -- I think
21 Fred was mentioned, yes.
22 BY MR. WEINBERG:
23 Q Did you believe at that point, you know, as you
24 were leaving New Hampshire, that there was going to be any
25 more money come?
37
1 A I was pretty despondent about that. I -- the sum
2 and substance of the weekend, Mr. Minton's demeanor, his
3 assertion that he was not going to fund the case anymore, I
4 left New Hampshire thinking, "That's it. It's done."
5 Q Did you -- did you know, in March of 2002, that
6 Mr. Minton sent by mail a $250,000 UBS Swiss check to
7 Mr. Dandar? Did you know that?
8 A No, I didn't.
9 Q Did you know that, in May of 2000, that Mr. Minton
10 handed to Mr. Dandar a $500,000 UBS Swiss check? Did you
11 know that?
12 A No, I didn't.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Now -- you know, your Honor,
14 it's 10:15.
15 THE COURT: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sort of at a breaking point.
17 I've got more, but I'm at a natural break. I know
18 Mr. Scriven said he had to go at 10:15, so --
19 THE COURT: All right. Let's go ahead and
20 stop.
21 You may step down. You are on the stand. That
22 means that you are not free to talk to anyone about
23 this case or what you're testifying about. And that
24 includes your lawyer. And that includes any lawyer
25 from this side and any lawyer from this side.
38
1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor.
2 THE COURT: You are on the stand. You can't
3 talk to anybody, as I said, including your own
4 lawyer, all right?
5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: All right. You may step down.
7 MR. SCRIVEN: What time should we return?
8 THE COURT: I'm going to say 1:00, but most of
9 the time I end up breaking till 1:30. But --
10 MR. SCRIVEN: We'll be here at 1.
11 THE COURT: -- yesterday I started up at
12 quarter to 1. So I'd say if you're here at 1,
13 you'll either be on time or you'll be early. And
14 that's better than being late, so --
15 MR. SCRIVEN: Okay.
16 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Fugate's prepared to call
17 the next witness we have. I think we should be able
18 to get done before Mr. Scriven gets back.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Let me make just a -- finish
20 up with a little note that I'm making before you
21 call your next witness.
22 MR. WEINBERG: Do you mind if I step out for a
23 minute while you --
24 THE COURT: I do not.
25 I have one more note to make, and I want to
39
1 make it before I forget.
2 Okay.
3 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, this is going to be
4 the security officer to validate the video clips.
5 And it may take a minute to set it up. It's a
6 little early to take a morning break, but if you
7 want to --
8 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. What are we
9 going to have?
10 MR. FUGATE: This is -- Defendant's Exhibit
11 Number 127; remember the video clips of stuff going
12 in or going out of the LMT? It was --
13 THE COURT: Oh.
14 MR. FUGATE: -- put in subject to the security
15 person coming to verify that he made the videos and
16 et cetera.
17 And I'd say this will take -- if we play the
18 videos, it'll take about 25 minutes or so.
19 THE COURT: But it's going to take a little
20 while so you want me to take a little break? Is
21 that what you're saying?
22 MR. FUGATE: If you don't mind -- I'll just
23 make sure we've got it set up.
24 MR. DANDAR: Are these the videos we already
25 saw?
40
1 THE COURT: I think so.
2 MR. FUGATE: If you don't want to see them
3 again, I'll --
4 MR. DANDAR: I don't.
5 MR. FUGATE: -- have him validate it, but --
6 Whatever the court --
7 THE COURT: I guess what he's saying is
8 before -- he's calling this person to validate that
9 these are the videos he took, and I guess when he
10 took them.
11 Weren't there dates on them?
12 MR. FUGATE: Yes.
13 THE COURT: And if you're willing to concede
14 that, then he doesn't even need to call the witness.
15 MR. DANDAR: I'd like him to get up there and
16 explain to us the alarm --
17 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
18 MR. DANDAR: -- that goes on the bottom left
19 corner.
20 THE COURT: Okay. But you're saying he doesn't
21 need to see -- normally before someone can validate
22 something he has to play it and say, "Did you take
23 that," and so --
24 MR. DANDAR: He can play maybe a minute of it.
25 We don't need to see the whole thing. Just so it's
41
1 on the record.
2 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I think I understand,
3 Judge. But can I just have a minute --
4 THE COURT: Yeah. What does a minute mean?
5 MR. FUGATE: Well, can we take a break, I
6 guess, and I'll make sure it's set up?
7 THE COURT: We can. But I mean, what do you
8 need, 10 minutes?
9 MR. FUGATE: Yeah, that's fine.
10 THE COURT: All right. We'll be in recess till
11 10:30.
12 (A recess was taken at 10:21 a.m.)
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1
2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
authorized to and did stenographically report the
7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
8
I further certify that I am not a relative,
9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
11
12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 11th day of June,
13 2002.
14
15 ______________________________
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR
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