||||| Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: 6000 + lines Rod Keller the liar has not read From: Deana Holmes References: <0a367b527a46c90b476cd9fd27571c2a@melontraffickers.com> <3D4AEDE4.9040804@voicenet.com> <3d4c31f8.137882051@news.verizon.net> <235931a8eaeb5be5937a96bea355a030@melontraffickers.com> <3D4D44A4.5010107@voicenet.com> Organization: Scientology Killed Lisa McPherson Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 6227 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 15:53:57 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.210.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1028476437 64.24.210.143 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 08:53:57 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 08:53:57 PDT Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!newsfeed1.earthlink.net!newsfeed.earthlink.net!news-hog.berkeley.edu!ucberkeley!newsfeed.stanford.edu!headwall.stanford.edu!unlnews.unl.edu!feed.news.sonic.net!typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1540959 Dear Rod: If you'd read this, you wouldn't be saying what you're saying. I realize that Stacy is a hard taskmistress, but truly, you need to remove the tinfoil hat and read, instead of willingly being fed her SHIT. So this is for you, Rod, you bald-faced LIAR. There is no agreement. Get that through your head and stop posting LIES. And if you keep it up, I have Stacy's remarks too, ready for posting. Mirele mirele@sonic.net (Minton at page 900-901 under cross by Dandar, the Judge is speaking): 25 THE COURT: As I told you, frankly -- I'll say 0900 1 it now and I'll say it again and again -- there was 2 no agreement. There was nothing that I consider 3 under the law that would ever be accepted as an 4 agreement. Period. End. So if you don't want to 5 call it -- you know, secret agreement -- that's 6 even -- I mean, it ain't an agreement, but if you 7 want to call it an agreement, if you want to call it 8 a secret agreement, as long as we all know what 9 you're talking about, that's fine. So go ahead and 10 call it a secret agreement. The judge isn't buying your argument at all, but nevertheless, let's just get all of Bob's mentions of the "secret agreement" out here on a.r.s, so you can read them, since you've apparently not taken the time to read the transcripts. Fugate direct of Minton on the secret agreement. Then it goes into a discussion of continual funding. (Minton, May 21, 2002 Hearing at 376) 11 Q Now, do you recall, after that meeting in December 12 that you just testified to, then testifying for the first 13 time in the deposition in Boston? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you recall testifying under oath in that 16 deposition that you did have an agreement with Mr. Dandar - - 17 THE COURT: Do you know, the deal is you don't 18 use depositions unless you are going to use them to 19 impeach the witness. He just said he testified to 20 it. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Do you recall in that testimony whether or not you 24 said that the bulk of the funds would be -- or recovery or 25 settlement would go to the anticult group? 376 1 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Improper question. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Was Mr. Dandar present at that deposition? 5 A Yes. He was. 6 Q Did he correct any of your statements that you 7 made under oath in that deposition? 8 A No. He didn't. Fugate direct of Minton about a Usenet post talking about proceeds from a lawsuit. Judge S. has a long section here about business practices and getting things in writing. (Minton, May 21, 2002 Hearing at 393) 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q And if you turn to the highlighted portion, let me 24 just ask you, is this again another public posting as to 25 your understanding of what is to be done with the majority 393 1 or the bulk of any settlement proceeds? 2 A That is correct. The top part. 3 Q Yes. 4 MR. DANDAR: I object. The word "bulk" is not 5 used in the posting. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Well, you say: "The family of Lisa McPherson has 8 given their full support, as you know, promised to give the 9 vast majority of any settlement or reward from the trial to 10 the Lisa McPherson Trust." 11 THE COURT: That is another expression. We 12 have "bulk of." 13 MR. FUGATE: Vast. 14 THE COURT: "Vast majority." That is not what 15 he used earlier. What did you say, "major part of"? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, "substantial part." 17 THE COURT: "Substantial part." Right. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q This post was after the formation of the Lisa 21 McPherson Trust, is that correct? 22 A That is correct. Yes. 23 Q And at the time of this posting, which is February 24 of 2000, what was your understanding of what the settlement 25 or the award was likely to be in the wrongful death case? 394 1 A Mmm, I think Mr. Dandar was still talking in the 2 neighborhood of 80-odd million at the time. 3 THE COURT: How much did you think you were 4 going to get? 5 THE WITNESS: Who? Me? 6 THE COURT: Yes. You are the one that is 7 saying you were going to get this. What were you 8 going to get? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, minus Mr. Dandar's 10 contingency fee, you know, which I think is like 11 40 percent, so that would be $32 million off the 12 top, the family would keep some money. 13 THE COURT: How much? How much? Come on, 14 Mr. Minton. You are a businessman. You sat down 15 and he said, "I'm going to get 80 million bucks out 16 of this." And you said, "Well, I want X"? Or did 17 you talk "bulk, vast amounts, majority"? 18 THE WITNESS: That is the way we talked, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: You never said, "I want -- my deal 21 here is I want 40 -- 40 grand -- 40 million"? 22 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Or, "I want 60 million"? 24 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: How much were you going to sue for 395 1 if you didn't get it? The "vast amount"? The 2 "bulk"? What was it? 3 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you have to 4 understand at that time the people who were involved 5 in this trusted each other. You know, I am -- 6 THE COURT: I see people fight over about 500 7 bucks. And you are telling me that all these folks 8 were just going to get together and agree on what 9 kind of a multi-million dollar check they were going 10 to write because they trusted each other? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, you have to 12 understand the background from which I have come 13 about this. In my business dealings, you know, the 14 people that I dealt with in business were people who 15 had to keep their word. Otherwise, you would be 16 weeded out of this business. People did 17 transactions in the billions of dollars cumulatively 18 based on nothing more than a handshake, a phone 19 conversation. 20 THE COURT: There were advantages, weren't 21 there, Mr. Minton, into not putting things -- when 22 people are dealing in millions, billions -- in 23 writing? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: No tax advantage, none of that 396 1 stuff? 2 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm talking about 3 dealing with the biggest financial institutions in 4 the world. You know, these weren't -- 5 THE COURT: Who? Tell me what big financial 6 places you deal with in the billions of dollars who 7 don't put their agreements in writing. 8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I may -- 9 THE COURT: No. I want you to answer that. 10 You are telling me you deal with institutions and 11 you deal with millions and billions and they don't 12 put things in writing, they just make these 13 agreements on a simple handshake. Who are they? 14 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, at this 15 time, Mr. Minton, I believe, wishes to raise a 16 privilege to the Court's inquiry, with all due 17 respect. 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 THE COURT: Is that true? 20 THE WITNESS: No. That is not true, your 21 Honor. 22 THE COURT: Well, then you either have a Fifth 23 Amendment or you don't. If you don't want to waive 24 it, if you want to exert it, that is fine. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, this is a very clear-cut 397 1 matter, Mr. Howie. 2 What I'm talking about is if you say -- if I 3 call up, say, Chase Manhattan Bank in London and I 4 wish to purchase from them or they wish to purchase 5 from me, say, $50 million worth of debt of some 6 third-world country, you know, on the basis of that 7 phone call we agree to a transaction that, you know, 8 at a certain price on a certain date that that debt 9 will be delivered by whichever side is agreeing to 10 sell it to whichever side is agreeing to buy it. 11 And the price is fixed. 12 THE COURT: Yes, you have a fixed price. 13 THE WITNESS: And a fixed amount of debt. 14 THE COURT: Fixed amount. 15 THE WITNESS: And the debt has to be, you know, 16 documented in terms of -- you know, the instruments 17 have to be instruments that are acceptable to the 18 party who is buying it. 19 THE COURT: Does the bank let you say, "I want 20 to buy a vast amount of debt," or "substantial 21 amount," or "bulk of the amount"? Or do they want a 22 dollars figure? 23 THE WITNESS: They want a Deutsche mark or 24 dollar or whatever currency figure. They want to 25 know how much you want to buy. Or how much you 398 1 want -- how much you are selling. 2 THE COURT: Tell me, what institution is it you 3 deal with that would allow you to conduct business 4 with things like "the bulk, I want the bulk of the 5 amount, I want the vast amount," anything like that? 6 THE WITNESS: That wouldn't happen, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Of course not. So that is why I 8 asked you, surely -- surely if you thought you had 9 an agreement here, you had some amount. 10 Ms. Liebreich and the sisters and Mr. Dandar 11 and you sat down and said, "There is $80 million. I 12 want 65 of it." Or, "I want 25." 13 THE WITNESS: You know, I don't think it was 14 ever specified in anything other than 80 percent. 15 THE COURT: Oh, let's see now. Now you 16 remember, do you, Mr. Minton, that it was 17 80 percent? 18 THE WITNESS: No, I remember that was discussed 19 one time. You know, I'm not saying that anybody -- 20 we were trying to define the term "bulk." 75, 21 80 percent, 85, 90. 22 But it was after Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar's 23 fee. Everything started after Mr. Dandar's fee. 24 And the costs. Whatever costs that weren't covered 25 by me that related to this litigation were part of 399 1 this "bulk," you know, the remainder of whatever 2 the -- the total amount would be from trial or 3 settlement. 4 THE COURT: So you sat down with Ms. Liebreich 5 and you said, "Now, I want 80 percent of what is 6 remaining, is that okay with you?" 7 THE WITNESS: No. I discussed that with 8 Mr. Dandar. 9 THE COURT: You said to him, "I want 10 80 percent"? 11 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't say "I want 12 80 percent." We talked about what is the "bulk." 13 75, 80. Even Scientology was trying to get me to 14 answer that question in a deposition, as well. 15 THE COURT: What? What it was? 16 THE WITNESS: What it was. 17 THE COURT: Sure. Because nobody would know. 18 Right? 19 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there were -- no, 20 nobody would know. 21 THE COURT: And now maybe you are used to 22 wheeling and dealing in millions and billions with 23 firm figures. But now -- I don't know because I 24 don't know much about Ms. Liebreich and I know less 25 about Ms. Skelton and these other ladies, but surely 400 1 they don't deal in the millions and billions and 2 stuff like that. So surely you would want to get 3 something from those folks. I mean, what did you 4 sit down and talk with them about an agreement? 5 THE WITNESS: I trusted Mr. Dandar, your Honor. 6 And that was a mistake. 7 THE COURT: Well, you know, Mr. Minton, mistake 8 or no mistake, that is one bad business deal. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm -- 10 THE COURT: I mean, don't ever make that deal 11 with me or anybody else, or any lawyer I know of. 12 That is no deal. You say you had a deal with the 13 estate and you never talked to them. You talked 14 with Mr. Dandar and you don't even know what you 15 talked about with him because there were no figures. 16 Now, I have said this before and I'm going to 17 tell you-all, you could not have brought a suit, a 18 lawsuit or anything else, on the basis of whatever 19 it is you-all talked about. Could you? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, maybe, maybe not, your 21 Honor. I'm not going to -- 22 THE COURT: You are not going to concede that? 23 If they gave you a million bucks and you don't get 24 the bulk of it, you're going to go into court 25 somewhere and try to get it. Is that it? 401 1 THE WITNESS: Not anymore. 2 THE COURT: Oh. Well, what happened to undo 3 the agreement? I mean, a deal is a deal. Right? 4 THE WITNESS: I don't want any more things to 5 do with this. That is why I'm trying to sit down 6 and talk about settlement with the Church of 7 Scientology. I want out of this completely, your 8 Honor. 9 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what that has to 10 do with the deal you had with Ms. Liebreich and her 11 brother and sisters. 12 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, here 13 is the thing. Everybody else seemed to think there 14 was a deal, Ms. Liebreich, Mr. Dandar, me, and all 15 of the people around us, and all around the Lisa 16 McPherson Trust. You know, maybe we were all wrong. 17 Maybe we were all smoking dope. But everybody 18 seemed to think there was a deal. 19 THE COURT: But you can't tell me what it was? 20 THE WITNESS: I told you the best I could. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, you know, I'm sorry, I 22 don't deal like that. I mean, I'm getting ready to 23 buy a house. They tell me how much they want, they 24 put it in writing, it's on a piece of paper, I know 25 exactly what kind of check I have to write. That is 402 1 how I make deals. That is how people loan me money. 2 I rather suspect Ms. Liebreich and her 3 sisters -- even though, I don't know, maybe they are 4 multi-millionaires, I expect that is how they 5 borrow, deal, do things, too. 6 I just can't really believe, in good 7 conscience, you are trying to come in and tell me 8 you had some sort of a firm deal with these ladies. 9 And I don't even know where the brother is 10 from. Have you ever talked to him or seen him? 11 THE WITNESS: I have never talked to him. 12 THE COURT: So you have a deal with somebody 13 you have never seen or never talked to. 14 Did Mr. Dandar ever tell you he talked to him? 15 THE WITNESS: Of course he did. 16 THE COURT: What did he tell you the brother 17 said? 18 THE WITNESS: He didn't say anything about the 19 brother. As far as I know, he's talking to Dell 20 Liebreich, the personal representative of the 21 estate, the sisters, Dell and Ann, who are the only 22 ones. I didn't even know there was a brother until 23 recently, you know. 24 Your Honor, as ridiculous as it may seem to be, 25 everybody who was involved in this thought there was 403 1 a deal. 2 THE COURT: Well, there might have been a deal, 3 and I'm not -- you know, I don't know what that deal 4 was and neither do you. But what I do know is you 5 had no agreement. 6 THE WITNESS: We had no written agreement. 7 THE COURT: And you had no oral agreement. You 8 can't tell me what it is. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, I told you, it was the 10 "bulk." What is the "bulk"? I'm sorry, your Honor, 11 I can't -- I can't make this up out of thin air. 12 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Minton, it was your deal, 13 not mine. I'm asking you to tell me what it was. 14 THE WITNESS: I'm telling you what the deal 15 was. 16 THE COURT: What was it? 17 THE WITNESS: The "bulk." 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: After Mr. Dandar's contingency 20 fee. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Did you understand, from Mr. Dandar, that whatever 23 dollar amount you were talking about would be less whatever 24 his contingency fee was? 25 A Yes. That was always off the top. 404 1 Q Did you understand, from talking to Mr. Dandar, if 2 Ms. Liebreich, as the personal representative, had any 3 monetary investment in the case? Do you understand what I'm 4 asking? 5 A I didn't understand that. 6 Q Okay. In other words, you don't know whether she 7 had any money invested in the case or not? 8 A Oh, no. She didn't. 9 Q Okay. And to your knowledge, who was investing 10 the bulk of the money that was being used to fund the Lisa 11 McPherson case? 12 THE COURT: The "bulk"? Here we are at the 13 "bulk." You just said Ms. Liebreich didn't have 14 any. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, let me rephrase it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the word "investing." 17 THE COURT: I sustain that. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q How much money did you ultimately put into the 20 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case? 21 A Mmm -- 22 MR. DANDAR: Asked and answered four or five 23 times. 24 THE COURT: Sustained, unless there is more he 25 hasn't told us about. 405 1 MR. FUGATE: I just was trying to fix -- 2 THE COURT: No. He already told us. We've 3 gone through the checks. I have them here. They 4 are in evidence. If there is something else he 5 hasn't told us -- if he told us about all of it, I 6 don't want to go through it again. 7 MR. FUGATE: All right. 8 THE COURT: Do you know if anybody else gave 9 money to this lawsuit? 10 THE WITNESS: In recent months, there have 11 been, you know, a few thousand dollars, at the most, 12 donated to Mr. Dandar. 13 THE COURT: And you know that how? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar told me in 15 February when he was in New Hampshire that he had 16 received, I think, $600, but he was expecting some 17 more. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: You know, this was part of that 20 posting that was on the Internet by Dell Liebreich, 21 you know, soliciting money. 22 THE COURT: I do remember that. Yes. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q So as far as you knew, you were providing most of 25 the funds, whatever they were? 406 1 A Yes, I was. 2 Q And had you ever had any conversation with Dell 3 Liebreich about what you termed the agreement was? 4 A Yes, I did. 5 Q And can you tell the Court what that was? 6 A Mmm, you know, I -- there were a couple of 7 conversations. 8 The first one that I remember is at the board 9 meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust in December of 2000. 10 And after that board meeting, you know, I thanked 11 Mrs. Liebreich for her commitment to the LMT and for 12 endowing this organization for the future. And in the 13 discussion, I used the word the "bulk" of the proceeds. 14 That is the best, you know, discussion of the amount that 15 ever was. 16 Q And in that conversation then, you did not define 17 "bulk," I take it? 18 A I didn't. 19 Q And she did not define "bulk," I take it? 20 A No. Mr. Dandar had -- we had a discussion about 21 this. And I believe I -- well, we had -- Mr. Dandar and I 22 had a discussion about this and I'd asked him early on -- by 23 early on I mean sometime in 1998 -- whether the family was 24 okay financially, or whether they actually needed money. 25 And he said that, you know, all of them were 407 1 retired, you know, they had sufficient income to live on, so 2 it wasn't like they were looking for, you know, a huge 3 windfall out of this. 4 Q And was it your understanding that you were going 5 to -- if the case were successful, there would be enough 6 money to pay back what you had put in, as well as fund the 7 anticult organization that you were talking about? 8 A Well, with the amount -- with the numbers that 9 were being bandied about, yes, that was clearly the 10 likelihood that there would be more than enough money to 11 take care of Mr. Dandar's contingency fee, pay me back the 12 principal amount of what I loaned to the estate, and fund 13 this anticult group that would, you know, forever be on the 14 Scientology case. 15 MR. DANDAR: Object -- 16 THE COURT: Well, specifically, I believe you 17 said LMT. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, at that stage, yes. 19 THE COURT: Of course, they don't even exist 20 anymore. So where is it going now? The case hasn't 21 happened yet. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I covered it. This was a 23 matter discussed with Mr. Dandar, even probably the 24 day before I had this check for $250,000 issued on 25 May 7. 408 1 THE COURT: Well, where was it going? What did 2 he say then? 3 THE WITNESS: To a group that Stacy Brooks and 4 I would set up. 5 THE COURT: Another group? 6 THE WITNESS: Another group. 7 THE COURT: So -- so whatever testimony you had 8 about the LMT and it going to the LMT, once you and 9 Ms. Brooks decided to close that down, whatever that 10 deal was couldn't happen anymore. Right? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, it is sort of 12 like the whole FACTNet thing, you know, and when -- 13 back -- you know, I have to go through the history 14 of this, because when this whole thing was 15 originally started, we were talking about FACTNet. 16 And FACTNet was sued by -- had already been sued by 17 the Religious Technology Center for copyright 18 infringement. Sometime in, I think, March or April 19 of 1999 we settled that litigation with the Church 20 of Scientology, you know, entered into this 21 liquidated damages clause of a million dollars, and 22 Ms. Brooks and I at that time felt that we would be 23 better off not staying in FACTNet because of this 24 potential liquidated damages thing hanging over our 25 heads. And we both eventually resigned from the 409 1 board of directors of that and began the process of 2 setting up a new organization. 3 And during the summer of -- of 1999, that 4 organization became the Lisa McPherson-something. 5 And this was following these depositions that 6 happened. Mr. Dandar told me that Dell Liebreich 7 wanted an organization named after Lisa. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q May of 1999? 10 A Those depositions. Yeah. 11 Q You have testified to? 12 A Yes. 13 Q When was the Lisa McPherson Trust formed -- 14 actually incorporated, if you remember? 15 A I think it was October or November of 1999. 16 Q And was that the organization then that took the 17 place of FACTNet, as far as you understood, for your 18 agreement? 19 A Yes. And keep in mind that, you know, there 20 wasn't any rush to do anything here. It took several months 21 to get people in place who were going to come down here to 22 Clearwater to, you know, man this new organization. And, 23 yeah, that -- that was it, from that point forward. 24 THE COURT: And so -- well, let's see. I think 25 you said you had a discussion with Dell Liebreich on 410 1 12/00, December of 2000, at the -- was it the board 2 meeting? 3 THE WITNESS: That was the second board 4 meeting, actually. The first board meeting, which 5 was more of an organizational meeting, it was 6 after -- let's see, the organizational meeting took 7 place, you know, around that December 5, the year 8 before. December 5 -- or December 2000 was after 9 the first year of operation. And that was the -- 10 the first, you know, board meeting after we'd been 11 operating in Clearwater. 12 THE COURT: Is that the board meeting at which 13 you had this conversation with Ms. Liebreich? 14 THE WITNESS: That is one of the conversations. 15 Yes. 16 THE COURT: Is that the first one? 17 THE WITNESS: No. I believe the year before 18 there was a conversation about it at this Ruth Chris 19 steak house over by Mr. Dandar's office. 20 THE COURT: One is at a steak house, and one is 21 after a meeting, the meeting you were talking about 22 that you just testified about here I believe a half 23 hour ago where you thanked her for her commitment, 24 was in the December 2000 board meeting of some sort? 25 THE WITNESS: That's right. 411 1 THE COURT: Okay. And you said at that time, 2 "I want to thank you for your commitment," and what 3 else did you say? 4 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, "And for agreeing 5 to fund this organization in perpetuity," basically, 6 you know. 7 THE COURT: Well, I'm sure she understood that. 8 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I didn't use that 9 word, your Honor, but -- you know, I don't remember 10 the exact word. But it was concerning the proceeds 11 of this case. 12 THE COURT: So -- 13 THE WITNESS: You know, I wasn't trying to pull 14 anything over on this lady. This wasn't any -- 15 THE COURT: And what did she say? What did she 16 say? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, she thanked me, you know, 18 for providing the -- the money for this case. You 19 know, I mean, this was a -- you know, we were both 20 beholding to each other on this. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So when did LMT get out of 22 business? 23 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- 24 THE COURT: 2001, was it? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 412 1 THE COURT: Then did Ms. Liebreich call you and 2 say, "Well, Bob, where do I send the money when I 3 get it?" 4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Did you call her and say, "Look, I 6 know LMT doesn't exist, but we've got a deal here, 7 and I'm going to set up something else, and I want 8 you to understand that I want the money"? 9 THE WITNESS: I discussed it with Mr. Dandar. 10 THE COURT: In March of 2002? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: What did you tell Mr. Dandar in 13 March of 2002? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, I told him at that time I 15 wanted this agreement in writing. 16 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: And he said he couldn't do it 18 because it would destroy the case, we have to keep 19 it secret. 20 MR. FUGATE: Could I have a moment, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 THE WITNESS: And that was the day before, you 23 know, I had this check for $250,000 issued. 24 THE COURT: That is the bank check? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the March 7, 2002. 413 1 THE COURT: What do we call this? Is this a 2 check? A draft? 3 THE WITNESS: A check. 4 THE COURT: March 7, 2002? 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I have an exhibit, let 8 me see if I can put my hand on it. It is 9 probably -- bear with me a moment, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I'm just beside myself. For the 11 life of me, you thought somebody would get 12 $80 million. Let's do this. 80 million is what you 13 said you all were hoping for? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, minus 32. 15 THE COURT: Let's do this. 40 percent would be 16 32 million. I used to -- when I was with the IRS, I 17 couldn't deal with these kinds of figures until -- 18 so I just lopped off zeroes. 19 THE WITNESS: Drop off all of the zeroes. 20 THE COURT: Yes. I used to go out as a field 21 auditor and I would go into Winn Dixie and some 22 mega-million dollar company, and it was just too big 23 for me, and I would just lop off a bunch of zeroes 24 and I could figure out what I was dealing with. 25 But now 80 million, here, 32 million, what does 414 1 that leave us? 2 MR. DANDAR: 68. 3 MR. WEINBERG: 58. 4 THE COURT: 58 million. 5 MR. WEINBERG: 48. 6 THE COURT: 48 million, right. 48 million. 7 Now we're going to take off, up to date, 2,000,150 8 for what you have put in. 9 THE WITNESS: 2,000,050. 10 THE COURT: We'll just round this off. Can I 11 round it off to 2 million, because I have a bunch of 12 zeroes out here. This is just for a hypothetical, 13 okay, plus or minus $50,000. 14 THE WITNESS: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Now we're down to $46 million. 16 Right? 17 And so you just thought a good old handshake 18 between you and Mr. Dandar and a good old chat with 19 Ms. Liebreich where you never even discussed the 20 terms was good enough for the bulk of $46 million? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Wow! Okay. 23 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 24 Honor? 25 THE COURT: You may. 415 Fugate direct on Secret Agreement (Minton, May 21, 2002 at 423) 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Can you tell us, sir, what this February 26, 2002 15 "Dear Bob" letter was all about, as far as you understood 16 it? 17 A Well, when Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko were in New 18 Hampshire the weekend of I think the 23rd and the 24th of 19 February, one of the things that I mentioned to them that 20 weekend is that people who, you know, I believed were 21 operating under instructions from Mr. Dandar had been waging 22 a smear campaign on the Internet against me. And this 23 started about the time that John Merrett sent that E-Mail or 24 letter -- I can't remember which one it was -- about the 25 22nd or the 23rd or the 24th of August, 2001, telling 423 1 Mr. Dandar that I would not fund the case any further. And 2 shortly thereafter, this smear campaign started. 3 And it appeared, to me, at the time that this was 4 basically to play on my emotions and involvement in this 5 case to date, to try to pressure me into funding the case 6 more, over and above what I had done up until August of 7 2001. 8 Q After you received this letter on February 26, 9 2002, did you continue to fund the Lisa McPherson wrongful 10 death case? 11 A After some additional conversations with 12 Mr. Dandar, yes. 13 Q What were those conversations? 14 A Mmm, well, specifically, the conversation on the 15 6th of March concerning the so-called secret agreement. 16 Q Now, if you'll look in the second full paragraph 17 of the letter, there is the phrase, "There are no secret 18 agreements between or among you, me or Dell." Do you see 19 that? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, had there ever been any discussion on the 22 part of anyone on the Church of Scientology litigation side 23 or any knowledge, as far as you knew, of any secret 24 agreement? 25 A Well, agreement they discussed. I mean, you know, 424 1 the thing got called a secret agreement after December of 2 2000, I believe. 3 Q We're going to get back to that. But the point is 4 the Judge just asked you a series of questions about 5 agreements. And you didn't write this letter, obviously, 6 did you, sir? 7 A No, I didn't. 8 Q And the term "secret agreement" was put in there 9 by Mr. Dandar? 10 A Correct. 11 Q And what did that refer to, as far as you 12 understood? 13 A Mmm, it was an attempt to make sure that the 14 integrity of the case remained intact by saying that there 15 was no secret agreement. 16 Q And was there, in fact, sir, a secret agreement, 17 as far as you knew and understood? 18 A Yes, there was. And it was confirmed to me when 19 Mr. Dandar was in New Hampshire, and confirmed to me again 20 by phone on the 6th of March, 2002. 21 Q And do you see the last paragraph there, the 22 second sentence, "There is much to be done, just as you've 23 always done. We know that you will remain steadfast in your 24 support." 25 What did you understand that to mean in the letter 425 1 of the 26th of February, 2002? 2 A You know, put up the money. 3 Q And did you, in fact, put up one last payment? 4 A Yes. I did. 5 Q And do you have that check in front of you there, 6 sir? 7 A Yes. It's Number 93I. 8 Q And is that a UBS bank check? 9 A Yes, it is, dated March 7th. 10 Q You said there was a conversation on March 6th. 11 Can you tell us what that conversation was about the 12 check -- if it was about the check, I should say? 13 A It was -- it was about the money, yes. And it was 14 about the secret agreement. 15 Q Tell us what -- who was in the conversation and 16 what was said. 17 A Just Mr. Dandar and myself. I was standing on my 18 back porch in my house outside the kitchen door. 19 Q Would this be a telephone conversation? 20 A Yes. It was. 21 Q And who was calling? Were you calling? Or was he 22 calling? 23 A Mmm, I think I probably called him. 24 Q All right. And what was the substance of the 25 conversation, as best you recall today? 426 1 A But I'm not sure who called who. 2 Q Okay. 3 A Okay? I might have been calling him about the 4 secret agreement aspect. He might have been calling me 5 about the money. So I just don't remember who called. 6 But the substance of the conversation was, you 7 know, "Are you going to come through for the case? You 8 know, we need this to get to trial. You know, you've always 9 come through for us before. You've got to do it this time, 10 too. You know, the case is strong. We're at the home 11 stretch. You know, do the right thing and give me the 12 money." 13 I mean, that was the money side of it. 14 Q What was the secret agreement side of it? 15 A Mmm, the secret agreement side of it was that 16 Mr. Dandar said that, you know -- I told him, you know, "I'm 17 still feeling uncomfortable, you know. I would like to have 18 this secret agreement in writing." 19 And he said, you know, "You know I can't do that. 20 That will destroy the case if anybody ever finds out about 21 it." 22 And, you know, this is when he said, you know, "I 23 assure you that the agreement is still in place, you know, 24 that I want to --" and he referred back to a conversation of 25 a few days earlier, I think it was, where he said, "Look, 427 1 you know, Bob, I want to be your lawyer for life, you know. 2 Together, we're going to take these guys down." 3 You know, he referred back to that conversation. 4 He said, "You know, how much more of a commitment do you 5 need than to know that I want to be your attorney for the 6 rest of my life?" 7 Q And what "guys" was the reference to, if you know? 8 A Mmm, which guys? I'm sorry. 9 Q You said, "Take these guys down." 10 A Oh, the Church of Scientology. 11 Q And was this part of the conversations about the 12 trust you had with Mr. Dandar that you explained to the 13 Court? 14 A Well, you know, I got -- you know, at this stage I 15 wasn't as trusting as I had been, because when I started 16 this meeting on the 23rd or 24th of February when Dr. Garko 17 and Mr. Dandar came up there, I had spent, with 18 Ms. Brooks -- I was up until 3 o'clock the night before just 19 dictating to Ms. Brooks like seven pages of things that I 20 wanted to, you know, lay out to Mr. Dandar about this lack 21 of trust that existed, that -- you know, that he had used 22 these people to smear me -- at least I thought he used these 23 people to smear me, in order to pressure me into giving more 24 money; that you know he had asked me to sign this affidavit 25 on December 13th, I think, 2000, you know, totally 428 1 renouncing this agreement, you know, while maintaining that 2 the agreement was still in place but from henceforth it 3 would be secret. 4 And, you know, I was -- I was not happy, to say 5 the least, with Mr. Dandar at that time. I was -- you know, 6 and Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko expressed great surprise and 7 great shock at the fact that I said I didn't trust them, I 8 didn't trust the estate, and I didn't trust Dell Liebreich 9 when we started those meetings on the 23rd and 24th. 10 Q Of February, 2002? 11 A Correct. 12 Q And did you describe or explain what the basis for 13 your not trusting Mr. Dandar or Ms. Liebreich or Mr. Garko? 14 A Yes. I mean, I -- you know, I thought that the 15 estate was -- you know, based on this affidavit that I'd 16 signed, that they were just going to walk away from this, 17 and Mr. Dandar was using this smear campaign on the 18 Internet -- 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, sir, "They were going to 20 walk away from this," what is "this"? 21 THE WITNESS: The agreement, the secret 22 agreement. 23 THE COURT: I guess I'm just confused. I know 24 there were some references to Mr. -- Mr. Fugate 25 wanted to talk about it in your deposition. This 429 1 was fairly well blasted all over the Internet and 2 fairly well blasted all over your deposition and 3 everything else. Now it's a secret? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, after the December 13, 2000 5 false affidavit I signed, it was secret after that. 6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm jumping ahead, but I'll 7 hand it up to the Court. Mr. Minton asked if he can 8 identify it, but we'll just identify it so you have 9 it for purposes of answering that question, the 10 affidavit that he's making reference to. 11 THE COURT: I understand about the affidavit. 12 But, I mean, I guess I'm having trouble figuring out 13 Mr. Minton's business practices, and now I'm having 14 trouble figuring out his verbiage. 15 You want to talk about a secret agreement that 16 everybody knew about? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, but everybody 18 backtracked on this secret agreement on one stage. 19 THE COURT: But you backtracked. 20 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I'm the only 21 one who backtracked on it. 22 THE COURT: Well, you may not be. But you 23 backtracked on the agreement. 24 THE WITNESS: I did. I did. 25 THE COURT: Because you backtracked. And who 430 1 else. Ms. Liebreich? 2 THE WITNESS: Ms. Liebreich. 3 THE COURT: Who else? 4 THE WITNESS: Those are the two main ones. 5 Stacy Brooks backtracked on it, as well, I believe. 6 THE COURT: Was she a party to it? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, she knew about it. She was 8 there at the Ruth Chris steak house, so she knew 9 about it in that sense. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Well, whoever it was that 11 knew about it backtracked about it, but everybody 12 knew about it, but in your mind it became a secret 13 because you signed an affidavit stating it didn't 14 exist? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, there is a lot 16 more to it than that, because this -- this secret 17 agreement -- or this agreement that existed was what 18 the Church of Scientology was saying in the middle 19 part of 2001 -- or 2000 -- in the middle part of 20 2000 they started using this as an issue in this 21 case in a major way, that this was -- that this 22 showed that there was an improper purpose to the 23 litigation, that the purpose of this litigation was 24 to fund an anti-Scientology cult -- you know, 25 anti-Scientology, anticult organization, that would 431 1 be used to go after Scientology. 2 And Mr. Dandar -- you know, we both knew it was 3 okay to give money to this case. But this thing is 4 something that really concerned Mr. Dandar. 5 And by the time the case was transferred to 6 Judge Quesada, Judge Quesada seemingly questioned 7 this sweetheart deal and opened all kinds of 8 additional discovery about it. 9 So this was something that Mr. Dandar felt was 10 really compromising the case and, therefore, 11 something had to be done about it. And in December 12 of 2000, something was done about it. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Well, sir -- 16 THE COURT: I guess all I'm trying to figure 17 out, what you're saying, the agreement was out there 18 in your deposition and out there on the Internet -- 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 THE COURT: -- but once you signed the 21 affidavit and said it didn't exist and that was a 22 lie, then you had to still have the agreement but 23 now it became secret? 24 THE WITNESS: Correct. Mr. Dandar is the one 25 who coined the phrase "secret agreement." 432 1 THE COURT: And after that time, after you 2 denied under oath it even existed, did you have any 3 further conversation with Ms. Liebreich? 4 THE WITNESS: Let's see when that was. Yes. 5 Yes. 6 THE COURT: Did you talk to her about the 7 secret agreement and whether it still existed? 8 THE WITNESS: I never talked to her in terms of 9 secret agreement, just agreement. It wasn't talked 10 about out in the open where anyone would print it in 11 the New York Times or anything. 12 THE COURT: So the conversation you had with 13 Ms. Liebreich about the agreement was after it 14 became a secret agreement? 15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm trying to think. One -- 16 the one was before. One was after. And there may 17 have been another one. But one was before and one 18 was after. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: The organizational meeting of the 21 LMT was before. And the -- well, actually, the 22 other one was still before, too. 23 THE COURT: Let's see the affidavit now, this 24 so-called false affidavit. 25 MR. FUGATE: All right, your Honor. May I 433 1 approach the clerk? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to hand her the 4 affidavit of Robert Minton which will be 111, and 5 the affidavit of Ms. Liebreich which will be 112, 6 and the affidavit of Kennan G. Dandar. 7 THE CLERK: 113. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'll hand these up to your Honor. 9 I'll try not to mix them up this time. Here is 10 Ms. Liebreich's, here is a copy of Mr. Minton's, and 11 here is a copy of Mr. Dandar's. 12 Madam Clerk, for my housekeeping purposes, 13 Mr. Dandar's is Defendant's 113, is that correct? 14 THE CLERK: Let me check it. 15 MR. FUGATE: And Mr. Minton's is -- 16 THE COURT: Let the clerk tell us. 17 MR. FUGATE: All right. 18 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, this is what you do, 19 you tell us. 20 THE CLERK: Mr. Dandar's is Number 113. 21 MR. FUGATE: Ms. Liebreich's is what number? 22 THE CLERK: Liebreich's is 112. 23 THE COURT: And does that mean Minton's is 114? 24 THE CLERK: 111. 25 THE COURT: 111? 434 1 THE CLERK: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. FUGATE: Did I give you copies, Mr. Dandar? 4 MR. DANDAR: Not yet. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q All right, sir, directing your attention to the 7 copy of the affidavit that says "Affidavit of Robert 8 Minton," would you look at that, see if you can identify 9 that, sir. 10 A Yes, I can. 11 Q And how do you identify it, sir? 12 A It's got my handwriting on the first two pages and 13 my signature on the third page. And I recognize the 14 signature of the notary public. 15 MR. FUGATE: I move Defendant's 111 into 16 evidence, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Any objection? 18 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 19 THE COURT: How about 112 and 113? 20 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 21 THE COURT: They'll all three be received, and 22 you just go right on. 23 MR. FUGATE: All right. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Now, if you'll look at, sir, the date of your 435 1 affidavit, Defendant's 111, what date did you execute that? 2 A 13th of December, 2000. 3 Q If you look at Ms. Liebreich's affidavit, what 4 date does that bear as the date of execution? 5 A She's 112? 6 Q Yes. 7 A Is that right? 8 THE COURT: Is that -- oh, I thought you said 9 112. I was going to say, is that '01? 10 MR. WEINBERG: Exhibit 112. 11 THE COURT: I gotcha. 12 A Oh, I see, the 20th of December, 2000. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q And Mr. Dandar's is 113. Do you see the date of 15 that? 16 A 3rd day of December, 2001 is the date it is sworn 17 and subscribed before the notary. 18 Q And prior to December 3rd -- 19 THE COURT: Is that a misprint? 20 MR. WEINBERG: It was done at a different time, 21 your Honor. 22 THE COURT: I know. But there seems to be a 23 big difference -- oh, it was a year later? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. It was for a different -- 25 THE COURT: That is the correct date? 436 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. That is the correct date. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. FUGATE: We'll get back to that. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q But prior to December of 2000, which is the date 6 of your affidavit and Ms. Liebreich's affidavit -- 7 A Yes? 8 Q -- prior to that -- those two affidavits being 9 executed, you had made no secret about your funding. Is 10 that correct? 11 A No secret about my funding. No. 12 Q Had you gone on radio shows, Internet postings, 13 newspaper interviews? 14 A Yes. I did. 15 Q And after December of 2000, did you -- did you 16 continue to talk about your agreement, or did you stop 17 talking about it then? 18 A Well, I think you should clarify here, because you 19 asked me if I talked about my funding agreement -- 20 Q Right. 21 A -- first. This is concerning another agreement, 22 this affidavit, isn't it? 23 Q Your affidavit of -- let's go to your affidavit, 24 111. This is the affidavit about -- well, would you read it 25 to yourself, and I'll ask you some questions about it. 437 1 A Yeah. 2 Q Generally, have you had a chance to read through 3 it? 4 A Yes, I have. 5 Q Is that the agreement Mr. Dandar had provided you 6 and asked you to sign in December of 2000? 7 A Yes, it is. 8 Q And can you tell the Judge what your understanding 9 of why this affidavit was provided to you to execute? 10 A Well, to stop Scientology with regard to this 11 whole issue of the improper purpose of the litigation. You 12 know, Mr. Dandar considered this a serious threat, you know, 13 from the time sometime in mid-2000 when he said, "You have 14 to backtrack on this." 15 Q When he said, "You have to backtrack," what did 16 you understand him to mean? 17 A Mmm, well, at the time, I -- I thought it was just 18 not talking about it. 19 Q Talking about what? 20 A The -- the agreement concerning the bulk of the 21 proceeds to be given to the LMT upon the successful 22 conclusion of the case. 23 Q And was that your understanding of why you needed 24 to execute the affidavit then in December of 2000? 25 A Definitely that was the reason. 438 1 Q Now -- 2 A The reason, just to state it, so there is no 3 ambiguity here, the reason was to shut down this whole issue 4 of improper purpose of the litigation. 5 Q And what did you understand from Mr. Dandar to be 6 the improper purpose that was trying to be shut down? 7 A Mmm, the fact that there was some business deal 8 between me and the estate that was going to be used to fund 9 an anti-Scientology organization for a long time. 10 Q And, particularly, that organization at that point 11 in history was what, sir? 12 A The Lisa McPherson Trust. 13 Q And so the reference in Defendant's Exhibit 110 to 14 "There is no secret agreement," what did you understand 15 that, again, to be? 16 A Again, to protect the integrity of the case, that 17 there wasn't any secret agreement. 18 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge, if I may, I 19 think those are the affidavits. I'm going back and 20 go in sequence with where I was. 21 THE COURT: Is that all you plan to do with 22 this affidavit? 23 MR. FUGATE: No. 24 MR. DANDAR: I move to strike the word "secret 25 agreement." "Secret agreement" does not appear in 439 1 this affidavit. 2 THE COURT: He's talking about 110, which is 3 the letter you wrote that says "secret agreement," 4 am I correct? 5 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 6 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q The term "secret agreement" in that letter, the 9 letter was drafted by Mr. Dandar -- 10 THE COURT: All you need to care about is me, 11 that I understand it. I did. The fact Mr. Dandar 12 didn't, I do. 13 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Thank you, Judge. Fugate direct of Minton about witnesses, checks and where the judgment would be paid. (Minton, May 21, 2002 hearing at 440). In this segment Judge S. gets involved and makes the observation that if any money were deposited into LMT accounts, Bob could have simply withdrawn it and taken it. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Now, sir, if you'll just keep those exhibits up 16 there with you -- 17 A Yes, sir, I have got them. 18 Q -- and I want to come back. I'll ask you, if you 19 go back to your affidavit to Paragraph 11 -- 20 THE COURT: And you say you are going to come 21 back to this? 22 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. You asked about it, I 23 wanted to get it in -- 24 THE COURT: Because I have more questions about 25 this agreement. 440 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, no, I will come back to it. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q In 1998, what moneys -- or what witnesses, out of 5 the moneys that you had provided to Mr. Dandar, had been 6 used to fund witnesses that were being utilized in the 7 wrongful death case? Do you know what witnesses? 8 A I didn't follow that question. 9 Q It probably -- 10 A It was too long. 11 Q You indicated that you had funded approximately 12 $400,000 through 1998 in the case, correct, in the wrongful 13 death case? 14 A Yes. Do you remember yesterday I said I 15 thought -- or I think it was yesterday, that -- 16 Q Well, it would have been last Friday? 17 A -- that I thought it was $500,000. 18 Q That the $400,000 is off by what? 19 A $100,000. 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what are you looking at 21 here? 22 MR. FUGATE: Paragraph 11, Judge. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Where you say $400,000, are you saying that is in 25 error? 441 1 A I believe it is, yes. 2 Q And the correct figure should be? 3 A 500. 4 Q And since this is in your affidavit, I should ask 5 you, how is it that you come to change that from 400 to 500? 6 A Because of that check that was written on that 7 trust account where the account was closed and the bank 8 didn't produce that in the -- in the request for -- you 9 know, when the discovery of Fleet Boston and Fidelity were 10 done. 11 Q You testified to that this morning? 12 A Yes. Fleet didn't produce the check. 13 Q I confess I'm getting tired. But you said you 14 were going to get that, you thought you would still be able 15 to produce that check at some point? 16 A Yes, sir. 17 Q Or a copy of that check? 18 A Yes, sir. 19 THE COURT: We're on Paragraph 11? 20 MR. FUGATE: Yes, Judge. 21 THE COURT: All right. Do I understand you 22 correctly here, that you are saying, "as a result of 23 this agreement to pay the proceeds of the judgment 24 to an entity I control --" 25 (A discussion was held off the record.) 442 1 THE COURT: "As a result of this agreement to 2 pay the proceeds of the judgment to an entity I 3 control and the case turned into a broad attack on 4 Scientology, I continue to provide funds." 5 I guess I'm a little confused. Maybe we're all 6 wrong to sustain an objection about an investment -- 7 I guess I need to know, if you had this deal, is 8 this what it was, you were going to get all this 9 money? 10 THE WITNESS: Not me personally, but -- but an 11 organization that I controlled. 12 THE COURT: It was an entity you controlled, 13 you could shut down as fast as you shut down LMT, 14 and take the money out as fast as you took the money 15 out of LMT. I suspect, if you got the money, you 16 would put it in your pocket. 17 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. The intention 18 was always it was going to be nonprofit. 19 THE COURT: Who was that discussed with? 20 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar. 21 THE COURT: Well, did you have that discussion 22 with the person you needed to have it with, which 23 was Ms. Liebreich? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, no, I never discussed that 25 with Dell Liebreich. 443 1 THE COURT: LMT sure wasn't a nonprofit. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, when we set up 3 the corporation, it was set up as a for-profit 4 corporation. And at the time Mr. Dandar said, when 5 we -- when we need to disburse the proceeds, we can 6 reincorporate this as a nonprofit. 7 THE COURT: You chose this word, sir. I did 8 not. "As a result of this agreement to pay the 9 proceeds of the judgment to an entity I control." 10 I assume by that you wanted the control over 11 the money. Was this a business deal for you, 12 Mr. Minton? 13 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, it -- it was a 14 business deal, yes, but -- 15 THE COURT: Was the money -- were you trying to 16 get a hold of this money? 17 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. Other than in 18 the sense that a nonprofit entity that would be 19 going after Scientology would have enough money to 20 really go after Scientology for -- for, you know, a 21 considerable and sustained attack. This was not an 22 attempt to personally enrich myself. 23 THE COURT: It was not? 24 THE WITNESS: It was not. 25 THE COURT: Well, he calls it an investment. 444 1 Was it an investment? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, in a sense it's an 3 investment in fighting Scientology. 4 THE COURT: This wasn't an investment where you 5 pay 2 million and you get back -- 6 THE WITNESS: 50? 7 THE COURT: -- 50 million? 8 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: That wouldn't be very admirable, 10 would it? 11 THE WITNESS: No way. 12 THE COURT: So that wasn't what it was? 13 THE WITNESS: Well. It never was that. So 14 whether -- you know, whether it would be admirable 15 or not, it was never that. 16 THE COURT: I'm very confused because LMT got 17 money into it, did it not, that it turned right 18 around and stuck in your pocket? 19 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 20 THE COURT: There is $300,000 from a man in 21 Holland that came through LMT, right? 22 THE WITNESS: Sweden, I believe. 23 THE COURT: Sweden. I'm sorry. And the money 24 doesn't show up as income anywhere. So, I take it, 25 it went straight to you? 445 1 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 2 THE COURT: There was a $500,000 check over 3 there you said came from some anonymous source. Is 4 that correct? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, at the time I said it -- in 6 my deposition I said it was from an anonymous 7 source, it wasn't. 8 THE COURT: It was from you, right? 9 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. And 10 the truth is that the money came from me. 11 THE COURT: Right. And that went into your 12 pocket. Why did you do that, by the way, send that 13 money there from some foreign bank to put in your 14 pocket? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, the whole issue of getting 16 money from other sources besides me into the LMT was 17 to try to get Scientology off on a wild goose chase, 18 basically thinking that it's either the German 19 government or the French government who were 20 supporting us. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Who is "us"? 23 A The LMT. 24 Q All right. 25 THE COURT: Well, let me see if I got this now. 446 1 You got a $300,000 check from some man in 2 Holland -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, and -- 4 THE COURT: -- that you put in your pocket. 5 THE WITNESS: And that money also came from me, 6 your Honor. 7 THE COURT: That came from you, too? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, it did. 9 THE COURT: So there is $800,000 that you 10 didn't tell the truth about in your deposition and 11 you haven't recanted in your affidavit, is that 12 right? A $300,000 check -- 13 THE WITNESS: And a $500,000 check. 14 THE COURT: Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: So those are lies you haven't 17 bothered to tell anybody about until now, at least 18 not me. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Howie brought this up 20 that this was an issue and that we would address it 21 here. 22 THE COURT: All right. Now, if it was that 23 easy to take that money and stick it in your pocket, 24 what was to prohibit you from taking this 25 $46 million that you hoped to receive as a reward 447 1 and sticking it right in your pocket? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, I wouldn't have done it. 3 THE COURT: Oh, I see. We're just to believe 4 you. Is that it? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I'm 6 here -- 7 THE COURT: Well, it's not in writing, is it, 8 Mr. Minton? You are asking me to believe that you 9 were going to get money into an entity that you 10 controlled and that money was not going to you, 11 aren't you? That is what you're asking me to take 12 you on good faith, right? 13 THE WITNESS: I'm asking you to do that, your 14 Honor. 15 MR. FUGATE: May I ask a question, your Honor? 16 Or -- 17 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q The incorporation of LMT was done by who, sir? 20 A Mr. Dandar. 21 Q Was there a decision as to whether LMT would be 22 for profit or not for profit when it was originally 23 incorporated? 24 A Yes, there was. 25 Q And what was the decision? 448 1 A To make it a for-profit. 2 Q And why was it decided to be a for-profit 3 corporation at its inception? 4 A So that the Church of Scientology couldn't find 5 out, through the annual reporting requirements of a 6 nonprofit, who was giving money to it. 7 Q And who participated in that decision as to how to 8 incorporate LMT? 9 A Ken Dandar, Stacy Brooks, myself, and there might 10 have been somebody else there in his office at the time this 11 was discussed but I don't remember. 12 Q And the purpose was for -- just as you described 13 it just then in your testimony? 14 A Yes, it was. 15 Q Was there any other discussion about how the 16 status of LMT would change when there was going to be a 17 conclusion in the Lisa McPherson case, whether it be 18 settlement or some sort of a verdict award? 19 A Yes, that it would be converted into a nonprofit, 20 which is a fairly simple procedure, according -- 21 Q Who -- I didn't mean to interrupt you. 22 A -- according to the information Mr. Dandar gave 23 me. 24 Q My question was who did you have that discussion 25 with and, if you can tell us, when? 449 1 A At the same time it was being incorporated, with 2 Mr. Dandar and Stacy Brooks. 3 Q And in that conversation was there any -- well, 4 what was the conversation about in terms of why it needed to 5 change from for profit to not for profit? 6 A Because the estate wasn't going to pay the money 7 into a for-profit corporation and not get the tax deduction 8 that would go to it if it was a nonprofit. 9 Q And whose decision was that, as far as you 10 understood? 11 A Mmm, well, it seemed a decision Mr. Dandar seemed 12 very comfortable with. 13 THE COURT: You are telling me, sir, all these 14 decisions are about a corporation you controlled to 15 the point where you could take the money, put it in, 16 take it out, put it in your pocket, and Mr. Dandar 17 was making these decisions? Come on, Mr. Minton. 18 THE WITNESS: That wasn't the question, your 19 Honor. 20 The question was who was going to make the 21 decision as to where the estate would put it, 22 whether into a profit or nonprofit. And it was 23 Mr. Dandar who communicated to me the estate would 24 put it in a nonprofit. 25 450 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Did you have discussions with Mr. Dandar about any 3 purpose or rationale for you wanting it to be not for profit 4 once the conversion to settlement proceeds took place? 5 A I'm sorry, could you ask that again? 6 Q Yes. Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar 7 about your wishes for conversion to not for profit once the 8 settlement -- or, I guess, at or about the time the 9 settlement or verdict was going to be placed in LMT? 10 A Well, that that would be the right thing to do. 11 Q Okay. And can you explain to the Judge what your 12 thoughts were there at that juncture? 13 A Well, it was obvious that the estate wasn't going 14 to pay it without getting a deduction for it. And they 15 wouldn't get a deduction if they paid it into a for-profit 16 corporation. 17 Q And if it was a not-for-profit corporation under 18 your control, would you still be able to, in your judgment, 19 get benefit from that not-for-profit corporation? 20 A Yes, the benefit to the extent of it would further 21 my goals of attacking Scientology. 22 Q And up to -- well, as a not-for-profit 23 corporation, the moneys that went into LMT came from who, 24 sir? 25 THE COURT: Well, there is -- does the estate 451 1 pay tax on -- are we kidding each other here? You 2 don't pay taxes on a lawsuit judgment. 3 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have to say I don't know 4 the answer to that. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I am involved 6 in a lawsuit which has just had $8.7 million paid 7 into it. And there are substantial tax issues for 8 the person who won the judgment. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q That would be the Wollersheim case? 12 A That would be the Wollersheim case. 13 Q And in that case, the money was paid into the 14 registry of the court, or into the court itself? 15 A I think the term that was used was interpleaded 16 into the court or something. But, yes, there was money 17 deposited in the court for 8.7 million. 18 Q Are there creditor lists, as far as you know, as 19 to who-all has first dibs on that money? 20 A Yes, there are at least 9 or 10 creditors who will 21 have to fight about who gets what part of the money. 22 Q Just so -- 23 THE COURT: I don't really much care about 24 that. 25 But I do care about this. I mean, I'm kind of 452 1 interested how Ms. Liebreich would know and 2 Mr. Dandar would know some fairly complicated 3 matter, that they would need a nonprofit -- I'm only 4 assuming the only benefit would be some charitable 5 deduction, so the only reason for a charitable 6 deduction into a nonprofit, I would assume, is if 7 the estate is to be taxed on the proceeds from the 8 lawsuit. I don't know if they are or not, to tell 9 you the truth. I never did estate work in the IRS. 10 MR. FUGATE: Neither did I, Judge. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q So let me ask you, did you have some discussion 13 with Mr. Dandar as to why this conversion from for profit to 14 not for profit was being discussed? 15 A Well, Mr. Dandar said that there would be tax 16 liabilities to the estate. 17 Q Did you ever on your own go and research that? Or 18 did you take his word for it? 19 A I took his word for it. 20 Q As far as you were concerned -- you, Robert 21 Minton -- did you have any problems with converting it from 22 for profit to not for profit when and if there was an award? 23 A No, I didn't have any problems with it. That was 24 my intention. 25 Q And as far as the money that you had personally 453 1 put into the litigation, was that to come back to you before 2 moneys went into the not for profit -- 3 THE COURT: That has been covered a lot of 4 times. 5 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. 7 THE COURT: I said I think that has been 8 covered a lot of time. The money was to -- first 9 the contingency fee was to be paid. He was to be 10 paid back what he loaned. Then he was to get the 11 bulk of, vast amount of, or substantial amount of 12 whatever was left over after, I assume, the estate 13 got something. What, of course, we don't know. But 14 something. Whatever, I guess, satisfied them. 15 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor, I didn't 16 hear, the contingency fee, then the loan? 17 THE COURT: Then the loan. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, just for your 20 edification, I'm not a tax expert but, for example, 21 if there was a punitive damage award, I believe that 22 is taxable, you know. So if somebody gets a big 23 award like that, and receives the money, I believe 24 you have to pay tax on it, so -- and not every 25 aspect of a judgment, even compensatory, would be 454 1 free of taxes, is my understanding. 2 THE COURT: Well, then the estate would have to 3 pay taxes on it, no matter what they did. So I 4 assume that -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 6 THE COURT: But if you get the money and you 7 have to pay taxes on it, then you have to pay taxes 8 on it. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Hypothetically -- 10 hypothetically, if the estate were able to make a 11 donation to a charitable organization, they would 12 get a tax deduction that would -- that would reduce 13 the amount of taxes they would otherwise have to 14 pay. And that is -- that is the hypothetical. 15 THE COURT: I won't take it you are an expert. 16 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not an expert. 17 THE COURT: It matters, I suppose, what 18 Mr. Minton thought. The long and short of it, what 19 we all know, however, is until that thing became a 20 nonprofit or whatever it became, if he controlled 21 it, he could take the money and stick it right in 22 his pocket. And he's asking me, as he just said, to 23 take his word for it that he won't do that. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Is that accurate? 455 1 THE COURT: Well, he said that. 2 A Well, not only is it accurate, the estate wouldn't 3 have paid it to be a for-profit corporation based on what 4 Mr. Dandar said; namely, that, you know, they needed -- in 5 order to deal with their tax matters, they would have to 6 donate it to a nonprofit. 7 THE COURT: And, of course, this is not 8 something you discussed with the person that you had 9 the agreement with. You just -- this was the 10 discussion between you and Mr. Dandar? 11 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 12 THE COURT: Ms. Liebreich, you don't think, 13 would quite have understood all this? Or you think 14 she would have? 15 THE WITNESS: I believe that was up to 16 Mr. Dandar to deal with Ms. Liebreich on this. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q You had no discussions with her about these 20 intricacies we just talked about? 21 A No. Fugate direct of Minton who talks about discussing the agreement to donate the "bulk" of the proceeds. This ends with Minton talking about the setup of the LMT. (Minton, May 22, 2002 Hearing at 615). 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Did you have a meeting with Ms. lie breich? 4 A Yes. We met at dinner, yes. 5 Q And can you tell the judge what happened at that 6 dinner meeting, as best you recall? 7 A Well, just the general enthusiasm for doing this 8 and setting it up; that -- you know, Stacy Brooks was 9 talking to her about the -- the agreement for the bulk of 10 the proceeds, you know, how it was couched the first time 11 that I heard Stacy talking about it. But then I got into it 12 as well with Mrs. lie breich. Her husband, Art, was there. 13 You know, it was just general enthusiasm for getting this 14 thing off the ground. You know, sort of fulfilling what 15 were described as Fannie's wishes, Fannie being Lisa 16 McPherson's mother, and the wish of -- the current wish of 17 the family, you know, to have something that would be around 18 for a substantial period of time in memory of Lisa. 19 Q And who was present at that dinner with 20 Ms. lie breich, her husband and you? 21 A Mr. Dandar was definitely there. I believe his 22 wife was there. 23 THE COURT: Whose wife? 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar's wife. 25 A Thom Haverty and his wife. And I'm not sure 0615 1 whether another sister was there or not. You know, it was 2 obviously a lot of us, so -- 3 Oh, no. Those are the only ones I can remember 4 for certain. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Was Ms. Brooks there? 7 A Yes. Ms. Brooks was there, yes. 8 Q Was anyone else there that later became on the 9 board of LMT there, if you recall? 10 A Oh, well, one more person I remember, Dr. Garko. 11 Q Okay. 12 A I'm not sure whether any other family member was 13 there or not. 14 Q So there's no confusion, was Dr. Garko ever on the 15 Lisa McPherson Trust board? 16 A No. No. No. I just wanted to clarify that I 17 think he was -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A Well, I'm sure he was there. 20 Q Now, at this meeting, did you discuss your plans 21 for who you wanted to bring in to work on the Lisa McPherson 22 Trust? 23 A I don't think so. I think that was already pretty 24 well set. 25 Q Did you have -- 0616 1 A I mean -- I mean -- 2 Q I'm sorry. 3 A -- everybody knew that Jesse, Stacy and myself 4 were going to be the -- and David Cecere were going to be 5 the core of it. Fugate direct of Minton about the affidavit denying a secret agreement (Minton, May 22, 2002 Hearing at 630) 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Yours is 111, sir. 6 A Yeah. 7 Q Prior to December of 2000, had you had any 8 discussion with Mr. Dandar regarding what we've called or 9 termed the agreement for the bulk or a substantial portion 10 of the funds being provided to you? 11 A Yes. This was concerning backtracking on this 12 agreement. 13 Q And when you say backtracking -- 14 A Backtracking on statements about the agreement. 15 Q And who used the term "backtrack"? 16 A Mr. Dandar. 17 Q And when did that happen, the best of your 18 knowledge, if you can date it to a time or an event? 19 A Well, it was May, June, I think, of 2000. 20 Q And do you remember what was going on at or about 21 that time that -- in the case? 22 A The -- well, you know, I didn't attend any of 23 these hearings, so I got my information from either 24 Mr. Dandar, who attended them, or Stacy Brooks, who attended 25 them, or Jesse Prince, who attended then. 0630 1 But there was a lot of focus on my financial 2 involvement in this case, and particularly, which I 3 testified to about yesterday, the -- the Church of 4 Scientology making a rather substantial issue out of this 5 improper purposes of the litigation, as a result of, 6 basically, the litigation being engaged in to set up a group 7 to attack Scientology for the long-term. 8 Q Do you recall a specific conversation with 9 Mr. Dandar about that -- about -- 10 You just said the term "backtrack" was used. 11 A Yes. He and Dr. Garko came to the office one 12 day -- 13 Q Which office? 14 A The LMT's office at 33 North Ft. Harrison Avenue. 15 Q And do you recall approximately when that was? 16 A As I said, I think it was like May, June. 17 Sometime in that time frame. You know, close to the middle 18 of the year. 19 Q Mm-hmm. 20 A It -- you know, there was a concern about this. 21 And you know, Mr. Dandar said, you know, we're going to have 22 to backtrack bigtime on this -- on these statements about 23 this agreement. 24 Q Did you understand, A, what he meant by backtrack? 25 A Yeah. I mean -- well, you know, we can't be 0631 1 talking about this. 2 Q And -- 3 A And backtrack meant, you know, somehow back out of 4 it. 5 Q Back out of it -- 6 A Back out of the public statements. 7 Q And prior to that, I think we -- you indicated 8 yesterday you had made many public statements about your 9 understanding, correct? 10 A Public statements and depositions and things of 11 that nature. 12 Q Were you, at that time, scheduled to be going into 13 other depositions that you knew of? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Was there a discussion with you and Mr. Dandar 16 about those depositions and about the backtracking? 17 A I think that -- you know, I'd have to refer to my 18 affidavit on that, but I believe that deposition was later, 19 not -- not right then, in May/June. 20 Q My question was, was there a discussion about 21 other depositions coming up; if there was -- 22 A At some point -- 23 THE COURT: Are you talking about at the 24 meeting -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 0632 1 THE COURT: -- at LMT between Mr. Dandar, 2 Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko and this witness? 3 MR. FUGATE: That's what my -- 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. At that meeting, I don't 6 think so. 7 THE COURT: And he's already said that once 8 before. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q So how is it -- did you have any discussion with 11 him after that -- 12 Well, back up. 13 At that meeting in May or June, was there any 14 discussion about an affidavit being filed -- 15 A No. 16 Q -- by you? 17 A No. 18 Q Was there any discussion about an affidavit being 19 filed by Dell lie breich? 20 A No. 21 Q When did the subject come up that you came to 22 understand that there would be a affidavit coming to you? 23 A Sometime in December of 2000. 24 Q And what discussions do you recall having about 25 that? 0633 1 A Mr. Dandar said that he was going to send up an 2 affidavit. And you know, he didn't go into a lot of detail, 3 but he said it concerned the agreement. 4 Q Did you -- did there come a time when you got -- 5 A The agreement about the -- the bulk of the 6 proceeds as opposed to the -- 7 Q Did there come a time -- 8 A -- lending. 9 Q -- when you -- 10 THE COURT: Wait. You're so busy wanting to 11 testify that you won't let the witness finish. 12 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 13 A Yeah. The agreement -- just to clarify, the 14 agreement that was talked about was the agreement about the 15 bulk of the proceeds, not any other agreement that -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Could we have a date for this, 17 please? 18 THE WITNESS: I believe I just said -- 19 THE COURT: He said December of 2000. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to restrain myself, 21 Judge. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Do you -- do you recall whether it was a phone 25 conversation or face-to-face conversation about the 0634 1 affidavit? 2 A Phone conversation. I was in New Hampshire. 3 Q And who was on the phone, if you recall? 4 A Just Mr. Dandar and myself. 5 Q Stacy Brooks wasn't on that phone call? 6 A No. Not on that one. 7 Q Okay. What was discussed in that phone 8 conversation? 9 A That he was going to send me an agreement -- not 10 an agreement -- an affidavit. 11 Q Mm-hmm. 12 A -- that concerned this agreement relative to the 13 bulk of the proceeds. 14 Q Did you have any conversation with him about what 15 you wanted to do with executing or not, at that time? 16 A Not at that time. Only after I got the affidavit. 17 Q Tell us how you got the agreement (sic), and when. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Affidavit. 19 MR. FUGATE: Affidavit. I'm sorry. Now I'm 20 doing it. 21 THE COURT: Now we've got not only one person 22 testifying, but we've got somebody else helping him. 23 MR. FUGATE: Which I need, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Obviously. 25 A Could you ask me that question again? I've kind 0635 1 of lost -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q I sure can. 4 A -- lost where we were. 5 Q When did you get the affidavit, if you remember? 6 A I don't remember the exact date, but it was, you 7 know, obviously, sometime prior to -- prior to 8 December 13th. You know, sometime shortly after the phone 9 call, the original phone call with Mr. Dandar, and 10 December 13th. 11 Q After you got it, what did you do? 12 A I called up Mr. Dandar the same day I got it. 13 Q And can you tell us about that conversation? 14 A Well -- 15 THE COURT: Let me go back to this, now that 16 I'm looking at it. It's dated 13th of December. So 17 if you could remember how many days you held onto 18 it, that might help you remember how long you had it 19 before you signed it. Do you remember? 20 THE WITNESS: I don't remember, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Was it a week or was it a few days 22 or two weeks? 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would imagine it was, you 24 know, a matter of a few days. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 0636 1 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 2 THE COURT: So you got this a few days before 3 you executed it. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Okay. And whatever day that was 6 that you got it -- 7 How did you get it? 8 THE WITNESS: I believe it came by courier. 9 THE COURT: One of those FedEx things or 10 something you just rip off the -- 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, it could have been 12 overnight mail, but it was one of those fast things. 13 THE COURT: Packets -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 15 THE COURT: Okay. And when you got it, you're 16 saying that you -- whatever date that was, you 17 called Mr. Dandar on that date. 18 THE WITNESS: Right. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Now go ahead. Fugate direct of Minton (Minton, May 22, 2002 Hearing at 637). (Minton, May 22, 2002 Hearing at 637). Here Judge Schaefer is really critical of Bob's lies. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Can you tell us what you recall of the discussion 22 that you had with Mr. Dandar about the affidavit? 23 A Well, I told Mr. Dandar that, you know, that this 24 was a completely false affidavit, with regards to that 25 agreement. And -- and I told him -- I pointed out, you 0637 1 know, that there's been all kinds of statements about this. 2 And you know, he pointed out to me that, you know, "For the 3 good of this case, we have got to get this damn agreement 4 out of the picture, because this is what Scientology is 5 using against us in the court." Again going back to this 6 improper purpose thing. 7 Q Mm-hmm. 8 A And you know, I also felt uncomfortable with it. 9 Because you know, by saying that there wasn't any agreement, 10 you know, in writing, I mean, this, was like, you know, the 11 perfect opportunity to be rolled over or whatever, you know, 12 in respect of one of the major reasons to be involved in 13 this thing and funding this, was to make sure that there 14 was, you know, an organization that would continue to be 15 able to fight Scientology for a long time. And you know, 16 Mr. Dandar, you know, basically said that, you know, that 17 the -- you know, that there is no doubt that the agreement 18 is still in place, but from this point forward, it's going 19 to have to be a secret agreement that we don't talk about. 20 Q Who used the term "secret agreement"? 21 A That was Mr. Dandar's term. 22 Q And what else did you -- do you recall of the 23 conversation that you had about your concerns that you've 24 just described? 25 A Well, Stacy was there in New Hampshire. She -- 0638 1 she was -- before I called Mr. Dandar, I mean, you know, she 2 read this thing just like I read the thing, and you know, 3 she said to me, you know, "I think you're --" 4 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Hearsay. 5 THE COURT: Well, she's already testified, so 6 we'll see if they say the same thing. 7 A You know, she said, "This is not the right thing 8 to do. This is -- this is wrong to do this," you know, to 9 lie in an affidavit. And you know, and she said, "I think 10 he's just trying to screw you." 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Did you convey that to Mr. Dandar? 13 A I didn't say that, no. 14 Q Okay. 15 A It was -- you know, it was clearly in the back of 16 my mind, because you know, here I was being asked to sign 17 something that says this agreement that I had already talked 18 about, already testified about in depositions, that this was 19 all just a crock of you-know-what. 20 Q Well, why in the world did you sign it? 21 A Well, because Mr. Dandar says this is, you know, 22 something that has to be done for the case. 23 THE COURT: Do you lie that readily? Somebody 24 on a long distance call says, "Hey, this is 25 important." This is a lie and you knew it was a 0639 1 lie , but after all, Mr. Dandar said, "Just sign it, 2 Bob," and you just put your name on it? Is that 3 what you're telling me? 4 THE WITNESS: That is -- 5 THE COURT: Is that how little you think of the 6 system? 7 Answer those in that order. Is that all it 8 took, is somebody in Florida on a phone call to 9 twist your arm, to sign something you now say you 10 knew was false? 11 THE WITNESS: That's -- that's all it took, 12 your Honor, with Mr. Dandar assuring me that the 13 agreement was still in place and that the -- that 14 the case was going to be better off as a result of 15 this; that the -- that we had to defuse what 16 Scientology was doing in the court system. 17 THE COURT: So what I understand, Mr. Minton, 18 is, it was more important to you to get your money 19 than it was to tell a false story under oath in 20 court and commit perjury. Is that what you just 21 said? 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what -- what I'm 23 trying to say is it was more important to continue 24 the attack on Scientology with this case, with this 25 organization that would be sustained by whatever was 0640 1 won at this trial. 2 And yes, your Honor, I -- it was -- it was 3 wrong to do this. I recognize that it was wrong. 4 You know, I've done a lot of wrong things in this 5 case. And I -- you know, I realize that the court's 6 time has been wasted as a result of the stuff that 7 I've done. And I'm -- you know, I'm not proud of 8 it. I'm ashamed of a lot of the things that I've 9 done, not only vis-a-vis this court but towards 10 Scientology. You know, they've done a lot of bad 11 things to me too. But you know, I was -- 12 THE COURT: Save your apology for them to them. 13 This is about lying under oath in a document to this 14 court. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I did lie , your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Because the money was more 18 important to you than the truth was. 19 THE WITNESS: No. The case was more important 20 to everybody -- 21 THE COURT: Well, what's the case, Mr. Minton? 22 THE WITNESS: The wrongful death case, your 23 Honor. 24 THE COURT: Yes. And what was the anticipated 25 result at the end of the case, Mr. Minton? 0641 1 THE WITNESS: That there would be enough money 2 to continue to fight Scientology for a long time. 3 THE COURT: And what's the key word there, 4 Mr. Minton? 5 THE WITNESS: Well -- 6 THE COURT: Is it "money"? 7 THE WITNESS: The money was the -- 8 THE COURT: So let's say money, slash, 9 Scientology. Is that it? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I had -- 11 THE COURT: Is money more important to you than 12 the truth? Yes or no? 13 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: But it was in this case, wasn't it? 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I -- I didn't -- I 16 certainly didn't think about this as a money issue 17 at the time that Mr. Dandar and I talked about this. 18 This wasn't a question of money. This was a 19 question of, you know, this case is so important 20 that we have got to do this. 21 THE COURT: Well, as I understood you, 22 Mr. Minton -- I apologize for raising my voice, but 23 it is very aggravating -- as I understood it, what 24 you said was your concern was -- well, number one 25 was, "Well, this is a lie ." But right after that, 0642 1 in short order was, well, wait a minute. This is 2 going to screw me in getting my money, because I'm 3 saying here there's no agreement. And -- 4 THE WITNESS: Well -- 5 THE COURT: And it was okay, because Mr. Dandar 6 said, "Don't worry about it, Bob. There's a secret 7 agreement and it's still in effect." That all had 8 to do with the money. 9 THE WITNESS: I said I didn't say anything to 10 Mr. Dandar about that. Stacy Brooks and I discussed 11 that. I didn't say I said that to Mr. Dandar. 12 THE COURT: Oh, yes, you did, Mr. Minton. You 13 said you said to Mr. -- Mr. Dandar, you said this 14 very clearly in this court -- "What about the 15 agreement," and Mr. Dandar said -- 16 THE WITNESS: I said what about the 17 agreement -- 18 THE COURT: "-- The agreement still exists, but 19 Bob, it's a secret agreement," or words to that 20 effect, right? 21 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 22 But what I'm saying I didn't say, your Honor, 23 is I didn't say to Mr. Dandar -- and I believe 24 that's what I thought you just said -- I didn't say 25 to Mr. Dandar, "You're not going to screw me in this 0643 1 thing, are you?" 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: I did ask him about the 4 agreement. 5 THE COURT: Well, maybe you used nicer words 6 than Ms. Brooks. But what you conveyed, I gather, 7 to him was, "Jeez, I'm getting ready to sign the 8 affidavit, and it says there's no deal, no 9 agreement. What's going to happen to my money at 10 the end of the case?" 11 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, your Honor. It wasn't 12 my money. 13 THE COURT: What's going to happen to LMT's 14 money? What's going to happen to the money that was 15 going to go -- this is your testimony, sir. What's 16 going to happen to the money that's going to go to 17 the organization that I control? 18 THE WITNESS: Yesterday we went through this, 19 your Honor, and I told you that this wasn't an 20 instance where there was going to ever be a 21 situation where any money was going to anything 22 other than a nonprofit corporation. 23 THE COURT: That's what you say. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: All right. So I'm going to ask you 0644 1 this one more time, and I'm going to hear how you 2 answer this. 3 You signed this false affidavit. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. And -- and obviously 6 now, I believe you say you signed it for the case. 7 To keep the case going. 8 THE WITNESS: Well -- 9 THE COURT: Put the case -- 10 THE WITNESS: -- Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar -- 11 neither Mr. Dandar nor myself wanted this case 12 derailed over Scientology's allegations about the 13 improper purpose of this litigation. 14 THE COURT: Did it ever occur to you to call a 15 lawyer, say, "Is there anything wrong with a person 16 who gets money from a case contributing it to 17 anybody they want?" You ever -- did you ever confer 18 with a lawyer about that, to see if there was 19 anything wrong with that? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, no, I didn't, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Have you since? 22 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 24 MR. HOWIE: I believe that touches on -- 25 THE COURT: That may touch on -- 0645 1 MR. HOWIE: -- privilege. 2 THE COURT: -- privilege. I'm sorry. 3 Have you talked to anybody but a lawyer, since, 4 about whether there's anything wrong about that? 5 Have you talked to Ms. Brooks, for example? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't believe any of us 7 felt there was really anything wrong with this, but 8 Mr. Dandar thought there was something wrong with it 9 because Scientology was using it effectively against 10 him in the court. You know, I -- 11 THE COURT: Scientology made an allegation. If 12 everybody had been truthful about whatever was going 13 on -- 14 Did you think there was something wrong going 15 on? I mean, I don't know. 16 THE WITNESS: I didn't think it was wrong, your 17 Honor. 18 THE COURT: But -- but Mr. Dandar said it was a 19 problem. So Mr. Dandar is to be blamed for causing 20 you, a grown businessman, to lie ? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm not saying 22 Mr. Dandar is to blame for this. I'm the one who 23 lie d. I'm the one that signed the affidavit. You 24 know, I talked about it to Mr. Dandar. He's the one 25 that wanted me to sign the affidavit, but I'm the 0646 1 one who, of my own free will, decided to lie to this 2 court. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: And I've said it before. And you 5 know, I am sorry for the problems that this has 6 caused. You know, I've told you that I'm ashamed of 7 this. And I'm ashamed of other things that I've 8 done in this case that were wrong. And what I'm 9 trying to do here, your Honor, is set the record 10 straight about this. 11 THE COURT: And the bottom line is, Mr. Minton, 12 as I understand your testimony -- and you just tell 13 me that I'm wrong and then I'll try to figure out 14 what else it is -- is that the money was more 15 important to you than the truth. For whatever 16 purpose the money was to be used, the end result of 17 the case was money, for whatever purpose it was to 18 be used. But if the case got derailed, it meant 19 there was no money. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, that's -- that is obvious, 21 your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: True. 24 THE COURT: So the truth of the matter is, as 25 we sit here today, and you and I look at each other, 0647 1 the money was more important to Bob Minton than the 2 truth. 3 THE WITNESS: You know, I -- I think you're 4 trying to simplify it too much, your Honor. You 5 know, there was a lot more involved in this than 6 money. There was this case, which is only about 7 money. Otherwise -- nobody's going to do anything 8 other than get money out of this case, one way or 9 another, now. 10 But you know, this whole attack on Scientology, 11 which was going to take money to do, yes, I agree. 12 But the -- this was the key thing, you know, going 13 after Scientology. You know, Mr. Dandar was 14 certainly on that bandwagon with me and everybody 15 else who was -- 16 THE COURT: You know what? We're going to let 17 Mr. Dandar explain himself when that's the proper 18 time. But right now this is Bob Minton explaining 19 himself. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: And he's going to continue on. 22 So -- 23 THE WITNESS: You know, I mean, money was -- 24 money was what was being sued for in this case. You 25 know, I can't deny that. But there was a -- 0648 1 THE COURT: How much are you worth? 2 THE WITNESS: But getting -- 3 THE COURT: How much are you worth, Mr. Minton? 4 You don't have to answer that if you don't want 5 to. 6 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 7 THE COURT: If you want to take the Fifth 8 Amendment. 9 But I'm kind of curious as to how much you have 10 to have -- 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: I mean, how much did you have to 13 finance litigation against Scientology and how much 14 did you have to attack Scientology and do all the 15 things that you apparently wanted to do, apart from 16 this lawsuit? 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I have not been 18 trying to make money out of any of this. 19 THE COURT: And I didn't mean to infer that you 20 did. You had been fighting Scientology before this 21 lawsuit ever came about. 22 THE WITNESS: Not for long. 23 THE COURT: Yes or no? 24 THE WITNESS: You know, 1995. 25 THE COURT: Yes or no? You were a critic of 0649 1 Scientology. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. Before. 3 THE COURT: Before this lawsuit was ever filed. 4 THE WITNESS: In October of 1995 was the first 5 time that I ever picketed against the Church of 6 Scientology and the first time I ever posted on the 7 Internet about the Church of Scientology. 8 THE COURT: And that's the first time, I think 9 you said, you met Mr. Dandar. 10 THE WITNESS: No. No, your Honor. That was in 11 March 9th, 1997. 12 THE COURT: Okay. So two years before you ever 13 met Mr. Dandar and became connected to this case or 14 gave any money to this case, you were involved in 15 fighting Scientology. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, you know -- 17 THE COURT: Or 1995. Whatever month it was. 18 THE WITNESS: You know, I wasn't -- 19 Let me try to put this clearly. 20 I was not -- you know, in 1995 -- and maybe 21 through March or so of 1996 -- I was not involved in 22 any crusade against Scientology. I became involved 23 in a crusade after March of 1996. And from that -- 24 that point forward, yes, I was, you know, actively 25 against the Church of Scientology in a significant 0650 1 way. 2 THE COURT: And -- you were using your money to 3 fight the church or fight Scientology or however it 4 is -- however it is you refer to it. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. And so I guess my question 7 to you is -- is -- 8 You are obviously a man of means -- 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: You had your own money to fight 11 Scientology. Why did you need this money? Was it 12 needing more money? The more the better? They had 13 a whole bunch and so you needed more? I mean, I 14 don't know. What's the story here? How much did 15 you need? 16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, first of all, it's 17 not what I needed; it was what was needed to fight 18 Scientology. A lot of money was needed to fight 19 Scientology. 20 THE COURT: But you just told -- you sat in 21 here in court, the first day you took the stand, one 22 of the first words out of your mouth, rather proudly 23 I assumed, was you'd spent $10 million to fight 24 Scientology. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 0651 1 THE COURT: That's a lot of money, Mr. Minton. 2 THE WITNESS: I realize that. 3 THE COURT: To someone like me, who sits here 4 day in and day out, that's a whale of a lot of 5 money. 6 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: So you had $10 million to fight 8 Scientology. 9 I guess what I'm trying to say is -- I mean, 10 not only was -- was money more important than the 11 truth, but money was more important than the truth 12 to a man that had over $10 million of his own money 13 to fight anything he wanted to? 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, $10 million -- look 15 at -- look at the mess that I'm in now, after having 16 spent $10 million. $10 million was never enough to 17 fight the Church of Scientology, no matter how good 18 or efficient you were at doing it. And I wasn't 19 that. You know, for any sort of sustained attack -- 20 THE COURT: Are you telling me you were no 21 match for them? 22 THE WITNESS: That's for sure, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: All right. Well, I'm going to get 24 off of this, but it's very clear to me, Mr. Minton, 25 for whatever it's worth -- it is clear to me that if 0652 1 what you're telling me is true -- and that's an if, 2 and I haven't decided that -- but if I am to believe 3 what you are saying about this affidavit, that you 4 were willing to lie -- 5 I mean, I know what it's like for people to lie 6 when they've got somebody there and they're being 7 tortured -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: They're being -- they're being -- 10 you know, there are people that will lie ; there are 11 people that will say almost anything if they're 12 being put in physical pain; if they're poor -- if 13 they're poor and they can't provide for their 14 family -- I mean, I've seen it. I've seen it all 15 happen in this courtroom. 16 That surely is not the case. And old 17 Mr. Dandar, sitting down here in Florida, and you 18 are sitting up there in New Hampshire, was hardly a 19 threat, physical or otherwise to you. So what I 20 understand you're saying is the whole purpose was 21 the case, and to get the money into the -- some -- 22 some charitable contribution so you could continue 23 and pursue your fight. All, again, over the money. 24 Now, that's what's clear to me. 25 I mean, I'm sure you don't like me to say that, 0653 1 and I'm sure that's why you like to make it some 2 big, broad -- and paint it with a nicer little 3 brush. And that's fine. And you've done that. But 4 just so you understand, in my mind what you have 5 just said was that the money was more important than 6 the truth. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, something was 8 definitely more important than the truth, because I 9 didn't tell it in that affidavit. 10 THE COURT: All right. Continue on, Counsel. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q In addition to money, what was the other purpose 13 in this litigation, in this wrongful death litigation, as 14 far as you were concerned? 15 THE COURT: He's already said. To attack the 16 church. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q And did you discuss that with Mr. Dandar? You 19 said for the good of the case. Did you have any 20 understanding -- 21 THE COURT: Well, you know, he's already told 22 us -- I didn't get into this until after he 23 discussed the conversation that he had with 24 Mr. Dandar. I mean, he went through the whole 25 conversation before I ever started talking to him 0654 1 about what this thing was all about. 2 MR. FUGATE: Okay, your Honor. 3 Would this be an appropriate time to take a 4 lunch break? Because I'm getting ready to get into 5 some excerpts. 6 THE COURT: I think it would. It's five 7 minutes till 12. I need a little more than just a 8 little lunch break here. I've got a couple calls I 9 have to make. Let's say 1:15. Let's be in recess 10 until 1:15. 11 (A recess was taken at 11:56 p.m.) Fugate direct of Minton on "backtracking meeting" moving into the delivery of a check that could not be traced to Minton (Minton, May 22, 2002 at 666) 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q And in that deposition do you recall giving a 16 great deal of testimony under oath about what you understood 17 the agreement with the family and with Mr. Dandar to be 18 about the bulk of the proceeds of the settlement or verdict 19 in the wrongful death case? 20 A Yes, sir. 21 Q And was it after that deposition -- and I think 22 the date there is May 24, 2000 -- was it somewhere 23 thereafter that you had the meeting you described before 24 lunch? 25 A The backtrack meeting? 666 1 Q Yes. 2 A Yes, it was sometime after this deposition. 3 Q Now, in May of -- 4 THE COURT: Is there a 5/4 and 5/24? 5 MR. DANDAR: No. 6 MR. WEINBERG: No. 7 MR. FUGATE: No. It is 5/24. 8 THE COURT: Okay. I think the tab in the book 9 I have said 5/4, but the deposition says 5/24. 10 MR. FUGATE: That could be an error. It's 11 5/24. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q And let me just ask, the deposition, sir, was that 15 being taken by Mr. Moxon, Rick Moxon? 16 A Does it -- it was in this case? 17 Q Uh-huh. 18 A Yes. It was Mr. Moxon. 19 Q And was Mr. Dandar present at that deposition? 20 A He was. 21 Q All right. And after that is when you had the 22 conversation -- I'm not going to ask you to go back through 23 that again -- with Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko and Mr. Dandar? 24 A Well, it was with Mr. Dandar. Dr. Garko came to 25 the office at the same time. 667 1 Q I'm sorry? 2 A I believe he was present when Mr. Dandar talked 3 about backtracking. I don't think Mr. Garko said anything 4 about it. 5 Q I'm not trying to interject him. I understood he 6 was there. So my question is who was present in this 7 conversation? 8 A I think just those three: Me and Dr. Garko and 9 Mr. Dandar. Fugate Direct on the secret agreement (Minton, May 22, 2002 at 672). 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q And did there come a time, after the meeting at 10 LMT with Dr. Garko and Mr. Dandar -- 11 THE COURT: Wait a second. I have got to ask a 12 question here, I guess. 13 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 14 THE COURT: Because I'm a little confused here. 15 I have got -- this little tab I have said 5/4/01 for 16 this deposition, but the deposition date is 5/4/00. 17 MR. DANDAR: 5/24. 18 MR. WEINBERG: 5/24. 19 THE COURT: 5/24/00? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, you indicated this 22 affidavit -- you didn't indicate, but it is signed 23 December 13 of 2000? 24 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: When was it that Mr. Dandar 672 1 indicated to you that you had to back off this 2 agreement? 3 THE WITNESS: Backtrack -- 4 THE COURT: Backtrack. 5 THE WITNESS: -- from the statements about the 6 agreement. Sometime after this deposition. 7 THE COURT: Sometime after this deposition? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Not -- not long after it. 9 THE COURT: You are sure it wasn't before it? 10 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm sure. 11 THE COURT: All right. Let me ask you a 12 question. Your deposition, Page 223, beginning with 13 Line 1, "Have you talked to Dell liebreich about 14 what would happen to the hoped-for proceeds in this 15 case? 16 "Answer: No. 17 "Question: Have you had any discussion with 18 her about money coming to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 19 "Answer: No. 20 "Question: It's never happened? 21 "Answer: No. 22 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the 23 family about money coming to the Lisa McPherson 24 Trust arising out of the hoped-for proceeds of this 25 case? 673 1 "Answer: No. No. 2 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the 3 family about the potential proceeds of this case 4 going to a 'anticult' organization? 5 "Answer: No." 6 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I thought in 7 this deposition that I affirmed the agreement. 8 THE COURT: Well, I guess I should ask you, do 9 you recall giving -- being asked those questions and 10 giving those answers? 11 THE WITNESS: Mmm -- 12 THE COURT: Do I have the wrong deposition? 13 MR. DANDAR: You have the right deposition, 14 Judge. 15 MR. FUGATE: The portion that I was referring 16 to is 391, 392, 393 -- Pages 393 through 394. 17 THE COURT: That is very nice, Mr. Fugate, but 18 the pages I'm referring to are Pages 223 -- 19 MR. FUGATE: I understand. I'm just telling 20 you the pages that I handed up were a different part 21 of the deposition. I don't know what you have got 22 there. I just -- 23 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't matter whether you 24 do. It matters whether he does. He said in this 25 deposition dated 5/24/00 there was no deal. No 674 1 agreement. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Lee, here. 3 THE COURT: Continue. 4 Do you recall, sir, those questions and 5 answers? 6 THE WITNESS: I don't. Obviously, if they're 7 in there, I must have said it. 8 THE COURT: It was a long deposition and it's 9 quite possible there is more than one thing said. 10 As a matter of fact, it looks like it was a 11 multi-day deposition, not unlike other things I have 12 seen in this particular case. When you read the 13 entire deposition, you don't always get the same 14 answers to the questions when they're asked five and 15 six different times. 16 THE WITNESS: Right. 17 THE COURT: But that series of questions and 18 that series of answers -- 19 THE WITNESS: I heard you read them. 20 THE COURT: And as I said, I don't know because 21 this is just information that has been provided to 22 me. But here is the front page of that deposition. 23 THE WITNESS: I think it's the same one. 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll show you -- 25 THE COURT: Just let me finish this, then you 675 1 can show me whatever you want. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is the same one. 3 THE COURT: I just came across it and I thought 4 I would -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 6 THE COURT: Okay. So you agree that is what it 7 says on that -- that page? 8 THE WITNESS: That is what it says, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead, Mr. Fugate. 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I'll hand up to you 11 the section I was referring to. And I have given it 12 to him. And I'll ask him if he recalls that 13 testimony. 14 MR. DANDAR: Page numbers? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Here it is. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Do you recall being asked if you had had those 18 discussions about the bulk of the payment or the -- however 19 it is described, the vast amount of the settlement or 20 verdict being provided to the Lisa McPherson Trust, and you 21 indicated that conversation was with Mr. Dandar, not with 22 the family? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And did you indicate -- do you recall stating in 25 that deposition that you had that conversation in 1998 or 676 1 1999 with Mr. Dandar? 2 A Mmm, say that again? I didn't follow you. 3 Q Well, do you -- let me just ask you. Would you 4 take a look at the testimony that I sat up there and just 5 make sure you recall giving that testimony? 6 MR. FUGATE: Rather than read it, Judge. 7 Whatever -- 8 A You mean the whole thing? 9 MR. FUGATE: Well, here, Judge, Page 391, Line 10 18. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q "Question: On January 31, 2000 you appeared on a 13 talk show, 1270 AM WXYT Detroit -- 14 "Answer: Uh-huh. 15 "Question: -- where you said, and I quote, 16 'Family who I have been supporting in the civil lawsuit have 17 agreed that when and if they prevail against the Church of 18 Scientology in this lawsuit, they will donate a very 19 substantial amount of the proceeds of the lawsuit to this 20 organization called the Lisa McPherson Trust." 21 Your answer was: "Correct." 22 Do you recall giving that testimony there? 23 A I do. 24 Q And then I think -- well, "Question: Do you 25 remember saying that? 677 1 "Answer: That's correct. Yes. 2 "Question: So how much have you agreed with them 3 that they will donate to the Lisa McPherson Trust if they 4 prevail in the lawsuit? 5 "Answer: I haven't had any direct discussions 6 with them about it. 7 "Question: Did you -- where did you get this 8 information that they were going to donate a substantial 9 amount of the proceeds of the lawsuit to the Lisa McPherson 10 Trust?" 11 Your answer was: "Mr. Dandar." 12 Do you remember those questions and giving those 13 answers? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Then the question I stopped on, "What year did he 16 tell you that? 17 Line 23, Mr. Dandar: "Answer: '98 or '99." 18 Do you recall that question or that answer? 19 THE COURT: Is that after the question on Page 20 16, "When did he tell you that? 21 "Answer: I don't remember." 22 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge? 23 THE COURT: Same page, Line 16, "Question: 24 When did he tell you that? 25 "Answer: I don't remember." 678 1 MR. FUGATE: It is. 2 THE COURT: Then Line 23: "What year did he 3 tell you that? 4 "Answer: '98 or '99. 5 MR. FUGATE: Then it goes on. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q But, at any rate, were we talking about the same 8 deposition the Court asked you about, and this deposition? 9 A Yes. 10 MR. DANDAR: I object. I think 395 is the most 11 telling of all of it. 12 THE COURT: You can certainly make your point 13 when it is your turn to make argument. 14 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Give me just a minute. 16 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 17 THE COURT: Okay, you may go ahead. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q And so the record is clear, the conversation about 20 the backtracking was a week or two after this deposition 21 that we've just been discussing here? 22 A Well, sometime shortly after, I don't know whether 23 it was a week or two or a day, but it was soon after. 24 Q Were there any other discussions that you can 25 recall now, from that week or two or three period of time, 679 1 up to the time that you got the affidavit that we just 2 discussed before lunch, about the problems with the 3 connection of the Lisa McPherson Trust, your funding and the 4 lawsuit? 5 A I don't remember a specific conversation. But 6 there were general conversations on that subject frequently. 7 Q Were there any conversations wherein there was 8 discussion, and that would be, I'm talking about, 9 conversations with you and Mr. Dandar about trying to stop 10 the Church's inquiry into your funding? 11 A Well, yes. With regards to that check. But that 12 was -- that was earlier in May. 13 Q Well, after the -- after the Plaintiff's -- excuse 14 me -- Defendant's Exhibit 111, the affidavit you indicated 15 that you signed, was executed -- 16 A Right? 17 Q -- did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar 18 about his using that in pleadings to stop discovery? Do you 19 understand my question? 20 A No, I didn't have any discussions about that. 21 MR. FUGATE: We'll go ahead and go to the first 22 video clip. I'm going to show a video clip of the 23 breach deposition and ask him if what he says is 24 accurate. 25 THE COURT: You are not going to do that. You 680 1 are going to ask him questions in court. And if you 2 want to impeach him from a deposition, you may do 3 that. You may not put deposition testimony in 4 without asking him a question and see whether he 5 answers the same way. If he does, you don't use the 6 deposition. If he doesn't, you may impeach him from 7 the deposition. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Do you recall being called on to testify in the 10 breach case in October of 2001? 11 A Yes. I remember that. 12 Q Do you recall, prior to going to that deposition, 13 having any meetings with Mr. Dandar about that deposition? 14 A Mmm, yes. 15 Q Can you tell us what you remember about the 16 meeting? 17 A He had come over to the LMT's office. And we left 18 there in his car. I don't remember whether we were going to 19 dinner or something. But he asked me about the meeting that 20 never happened. That is not my phrase. That was his 21 phrase, "the meeting that never happened." 22 And I think he asked me, "Do you remember -- do 23 you remember the meeting that never happened?" 24 I said no. 25 And he laughed quite vigorously and he said, 681 1 "That's a good answer, you know, remember -- remember that 2 answer." 3 Q Do you remember any other conversation that you 4 had with him before the deposition? 5 A In the breach case? 6 Q Uh-huh. The deposition was October 11 and 12 of 7 2001. Mr. Rosen took the deposition. 8 A You know, I would like to refer to my affidavit 9 because I think there is a lot of dates here that -- that I 10 just want to refresh myself -- 11 Q Why don't I do what the Judge suggested and I'll 12 read you questions and answers and ask you if you recall 13 those questions and answers. Is that -- 14 THE COURT: No, you need to ask him a question 15 and you need to let him answer. And if he answers 16 it differently from the way he answered in the 17 deposition, then you may use the deposition to 18 impeach him. Do not start reading from somebody's 19 deposition. 20 MR. FUGATE: It's his deposition, Judge. 21 THE COURT: I understand that. I don't care 22 whose deposition it is. You don't use a deposition 23 until somebody denies saying something. 24 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 25 Judge, I'm not seeking to impeach him. I'm 682 1 going to ask him if he gave the testimony, was the 2 testimony -- 3 THE COURT: Ask him what testimony he gave. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Do you recall being questioned by Mr. Dandar in 6 the breach deposition? 7 A On cross-examination. Yes. 8 Q Yes? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you remember him asking you about whether or 11 not there was any kind of agreement of any nature, source or 12 kind between the Lisa McPherson Trust and the Lisa McPherson 13 estate? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you remember telling him, in essence, there 16 was none whatsoever? 17 A That's right. 18 Q And he asked again, "Are you sure there is no 19 agreement at all?" 20 And your answer was "No." 21 A Right. That is correct. 22 Q Was that answer -- were those two answers true at 23 the time that you gave them? 24 A Not in my mind. 25 Q And does that refer to the agreement that we 683 1 discussed before lunch in terms of you had signed the 2 agreement saying that there was no -- 3 A Signed the affidavit. 4 Q Signed the affidavit saying there was no 5 agreement, and are these questions that were asked of you - - 6 do you recall them being asked of you by Mr. Dandar? 7 A Yes. This was, you know, now the secret 8 agreement. 9 Q Do you remember being asked in that deposition by 10 Mr. Dandar -- 11 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. This still 12 isn't appropriate. 13 THE COURT: I know. It isn't. 14 MR. FUGATE: To ask him if he remembers being 15 asked about a question and giving an answer? 16 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't know what you 17 were going to say. Go ahead. At this point, Fugate switches over to questions about DM and paying for witnesses. Fugate direct asking Minton when he told Scn about the alleged secret agreement (Minton, May 22, 2002 Hearing at 697) 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Mr. Minton, with regard to the two days of 12 deposition in the breach case of October 11 and October 12, 13 let me ask you this. Did you backtrack in that deposition 14 and back out of the agreement that you had publicized 15 before, et cetera, to your recollection? 16 A I believe it was that one. I -- I think -- I 17 think there might have been -- yes, there was one in 18 September in this case where I think I pled the Fifth 19 Amendment. And then in the October one -- 20 Q The October one, again, would be Mr. Rosen taking 21 the deposition? 22 A Yes. 23 Q The questions I went through with you? 24 A Right, when Mr. Rosen was asking me questions. 25 Q When Mr. Dandar asked you particularly about 697 1 adding Mr. Miscavige and were you participating in 2 decisions, et cetera? 3 A Right. You know, basically, you know, said I 4 misunderstood the communications, you know, and backtracked, 5 you know. 6 Q And was that Mr. Dandar's request? 7 A It was. 8 Q Now, were you aware that Mr. Dandar used the 9 excerpts of your backtracking in that deposition to provide 10 them to this Court in a January hearing? 11 A I -- I know that he used them in several pleadings 12 or motions or something. But, you know, I don't know 13 which -- which dates they were used. But I know that they 14 were used in this Court and the appeals court. 15 Q And the 2d DCA? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Were you aware your affidavit was also used in the 18 Second District Court of Appeals? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Were you aware that Mr. Dandar's affidavit that 21 was up there as 114, I think -- or 113, rather, was also 22 utilized? 23 A I learned about that afterwards. 24 Q And at that time did you feel that was for the 25 good of the case, as you have indicated to Judge Schaeffer? 698 1 A Well, the -- the affidavit was -- that I signed, 2 the false affidavit that I signed, was for the good of the 3 case. And, you know, anything that Mr. Dandar did with them 4 after that, since he's the one that used the term "for the 5 good of the case," you know, I would assume that he thought 6 it was for the good of the case, as well. 7 Q And we've heard the term here in the last couple 8 of days "secret agreement." In fact, I think the Judge 9 asked you, where did it come from. 10 Can you tell us where you understood the term 11 "secret agreement" came from as it has been used in this 12 hearing? 13 A That came from Mr. Dandar. 14 Q And -- 15 A You know, when this affidavit was signed, it 16 was -- or when it was about to be signed, he used the term 17 that, you know, henceforth -- I don't think he used 18 "henceforth," but "From this point on, this will have to be 19 a secret agreement that we don't talk about." 20 Q And did -- when you met with Mr. Rinder and 21 Monique Yingling in April, did you use the term "secret 22 agreement" in your meeting with them? 23 A I believe I did. 24 Q And did -- can you tell us what your impression 25 was of whether they had ever heard of anything like that 699 1 before until you told them? 2 THE COURT: Well now, honestly, what is it you 3 are asking him to say? Did -- I mean, frankly, if 4 they said something or expressed surprise, that is 5 hearsay. What is it that you want from this man? 6 MR. FUGATE: All right. 7 THE COURT: He testified -- 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Were you asked about a secret agreement in that 10 meeting? 11 A No. I wasn't. I volunteered the information. 12 Q All right. 13 A Then I was asked about it. Fugate direct, first about meetings in 2/2002, then a remark about how Bob wanted the secret agreement in writing from Dandar (Minton, May 22, 2002 Hearing, at 747) 2 Q Was there any discussion connecting this stopping 3 that and the provision of further moneys to Mr. Dandar? 4 A Well, you know, at that moment in time during that 5 meeting in February, I didn't agree to give any more money 6 yet. 7 And, yes, the stopping the smear campaign was part 8 of any consideration for giving any more money. 9 Q I think you just said that you saw that it stopped 10 after Mr. Dandar went back to Tampa? 11 A Right. 12 Q Was there anything else discussed at the meetings 13 that we've not covered here? 14 A Well, there was the discussion of the case. 15 And -- and, you know, the case has never been stronger, that 16 is the -- that is the key line that I remember. 17 But, you know, there was a lot of discussion how 18 everything was really good, that we were going to get to 19 trial in June, you know, this -- this was the -- the end of 20 the game here, you know, let's push this over the goal line 21 and get this thing done. 22 And, you know, it -- it was a sales pitch in terms 23 of the strength of the case, you know, how he felt it was 24 going to go. 25 You know, he was very comfortable. He was coming 747 1 across as extremely convincing that this was going to be a 2 success. 3 Q And did he define what he meant by success to you? 4 A No. He didn't define it in monetary terms at 5 all -- 6 Q Did -- 7 A -- at that time. 8 Q Did he at any time after that, after that 9 February 23rd/24th meeting? 10 A You know, I don't remember. But there was -- 11 there was a time $40 million was talked about, and I'm not 12 sure whether that was in one of these conversations before 13 the meeting or after the meeting. But, you know, it was a 14 substantial difference from what, you know, discussions a 15 couple years previously had been. 16 Q And who -- who was describing the number to you? 17 A Mr. Dandar. 18 Q Was there any discussion about how -- if you were 19 going to fund any more money, how that would be done? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Can you tell us what that was? 22 A "Some of your overseas friends," or "overseas 23 investors or foreign friends, overseas investors," something 24 like that. 25 Q Who was saying that? You? Or Mr. Dandar? 748 1 A Mr. Dandar. 2 Q And what did you say in response to that? 3 A "Well, I'll have to see what I can do." 4 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar about 5 the funding after that face-to-face meeting? 6 A Yes. Yeah, there were -- you know, there -- we 7 talked several times after that, prior to March 7th. Once I 8 think it was about the suck-up letter. You know, once it 9 was about, you know, "It's really getting close here, we've 10 got to get this money." 11 Another time it was about the secret agreement 12 and, you know, my desire to have something firm and in 13 writing from Mr. Dandar. Dandar cross with Judge S. comments about previous testimony involving secret agreement (Minton, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 878) 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Okay. Mr. Minton, I'm going to -- the excerpts 11 that are in front of you -- I'm going to turn to page 212 -- 12 Well, let me ask you this before you do that. 13 So the only thing that you and I talked about, as 14 you say, to prepare you for your May 24th, 2000 deposition, 15 was this UBS check. 16 A That's all I can remember at the moment. 17 Q And it's your testimony under oath before this 18 judge that I told you to lie in your deposition about the 19 source or even receiving this check. Is that what your 20 testimony is? 21 A Absolutely. 22 Q And is it your testimony, Mr. Minton, that when 23 you handed me this check at the Bombay Bicycle Club 24 Restaurant, that you told me that this was your money? 25 A That is my testimony. 0878 1 Q Is that the truth? 2 A Yes, it is. And you were acting like you were 3 fully aware of it. I mean, you -- you specified -- 4 Q I just asked you, was it the truth. I didn't ask 5 you any other question. 6 A Yeah. 7 Q So then I take it, Mr. Minton, that all the other 8 questions in your deposition of May 24th, 2000 were truthful 9 except for this check from UBS, correct? 10 A I think you better ask me whether the answers were 11 truthful, not the questions. 12 Q So as you sit here today, you're not sure if you 13 lied about other things in your May 24th deposition? 14 A You know, I don't know. I don't know. 15 THE COURT: Well, let's establish this. My 16 recollection is alive. And I believe I looked at 17 this deposition and asked some questions about it 18 yesterday. 19 MR. FUGATE: You did, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Yeah. 21 My recollection from your testimony yesterday 22 is, it is your testimony that Mr. Dandar and you -- 23 Mr. Dandar made this suggestion about this 24 problem -- let me see if I can get this right -- the 25 problem with the agreement between you and the -- 0879 1 and the estate -- this is the agreement to give the 2 bulk of or substantial portion of -- 3 Do you remember that? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. 5 THE COURT: That -- okay. The discussion about 6 that came before -- soon before the affidavit was 7 sent to you -- 8 THE WITNESS: You mean -- 9 THE COURT: -- which -- 10 THE WITNESS: -- the discussion about 11 backtracking? 12 THE COURT: Yeah. The discussion about 13 backtracking. 14 THE WITNESS: No. The discussion about 15 backtracking happened sometime in the May/June 16 period. That's what I testified to. 17 THE COURT: May/June of 2000 and what? 18 THE WITNESS: 2000. 19 THE COURT: May/June of 2000. 20 Okay. Dandar cross of Minton, asking Minton about May 24, 2000 deposition where Minton denied ever talking to Liebreich about the proceeds. (Minton, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 891) 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Mr. Minton, we're on your deposition of May 24th, 13 2000. 14 THE COURT: By the way, for whatever it's 15 worth, in all these depositions, whatever it is 16 we're doing now, we sure don't get to any of that 17 here, so -- 18 MR. DANDAR: I missed that, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Well, trust me, it isn't lost on 20 me. So move on. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q May 24th of 2000, Mr. Minton, isn't it true that 23 as of that date -- 24 THE COURT: What date are you talking about 25 now? 0891 1 MR. DANDAR: The date of this deposition, 2 May 24, 2000. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q You did not have any agreement whatsoever with the 5 estate of Lisa McPherson on the hoped-for proceeds of the 6 wrongful death suit except the repayment of your money that 7 you loaned, correct? 8 A That's not correct. 9 Q Well, turn to page 223, Mr. Minton, top of page, 10 line 1. 11 "Question: Have you talked to Dell Liebreich 12 about what would happen to the hoped-for proceeds in this 13 case? 14 "Answer: No. 15 "Question: Have you had any discussion with her 16 about the money coming to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 17 "Answer: No. 18 "Question: It's never happened? 19 "Answer: No." 20 Are those truthful answers, Mr. Minton? 21 A No. 22 Q So this is a lie that -- 23 A No, it's not a lie. You just asked me were they 24 truthful answers first. 25 Q Well, then, why did you not answer -- 0892 1 Well, wait a minute. If they're not truthful 2 answers, are they -- doesn't that make them a lie? 3 A It makes them truthful answers to the best of my 4 recollection at the time. I have been subsequently advised 5 of discussions about that -- 6 Q Oh. 7 A -- with Dell Liebreich. 8 Q Well, who advised you that these are wrong 9 answers? 10 A Nobody advised me these were wrong answers. I 11 haven't seen these. But Stacy Brooks reminded me of the 12 meeting that we had at the steakhouse. 13 THE COURT: When was it Ms. Brooks reminded you 14 of that? 15 THE WITNESS: About the time that we were 16 putting together these affidavits. 17 THE COURT: No, no. Yesterday we talked about 18 this. You and me. Same stuff. 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 THE COURT: Did Ms. Brooks have a conversation 21 with you about that yesterday or last night? 22 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. No, ma'am. This is 23 when we were -- back in April, when we were writing 24 narratives and time lines -- you know, this was 25 something she reminded me of at that time. 0893 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q So you and Ms. Brooks -- 3 A Either -- one of us actually has something about 4 this in our affidavit. I think it's in hers. Because I had 5 already written my affidavit by the time she wrote hers. 6 Q So you didn't -- 7 You and Ms. Brooks write your affidavits of 8 recantation together? 9 A The recantation affidavits, we -- 10 THE COURT: Answer that question, please, and 11 then you may explain it. 12 A No. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Who wrote the re- -- who wrote the recantation -- 15 the first one of three -- each of you wrote three. Which 16 one of you wrote the first one first? 17 A I -- I think my affidavit is signed on the 24th of 18 April, and Ms. Brooks didn't start working on hers until 19 after that; until after -- yeah. Until after that. 20 Q Well, Mr. Minton, this deposition is May 24th of 21 2000. What's incorrect or untruthful about your answers 22 about not having any discussion with Dell Liebreich or 23 anyone from the -- well, not having any conversation with 24 Dell Liebreich about the, quote, hoped-for proceeds in this 25 case? 0894 1 A Well, there was a discussion at that steakhouse 2 in -- 3 Q And when did that occur? 4 A In December, '99 or November, '99. Whatever. 5 Q So, what, five or six months before your 6 deposition? 7 A Right. 8 Q And so five or six months after this -- this 9 discussion that you say happened at a steakhouse, six -- 10 five or six months later, you couldn't remember that in your 11 deposition, but you remember it now? 12 A Well, I'll give you -- yes. Yes. I remember it 13 now because I was reminded of it. 14 Q By Stacy Brooks. 15 A Correct. 16 You know, it's just like the thing with -- in 17 Judge Baird's hearing. You know, I said at this meeting 18 that I thought everybody was in favor of it. Both Stacy 19 Brooks and Michael Garko told me he was never in favor of 20 it, you know. I didn't remember that. 21 Q We'll get to that. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Well, do you agree that your answers here 24 aren't -- you're not hesitating one bit about saying, "No, I 25 didn't talk to Dell Liebreich about the hoped-for proceeds. 0895 1 A That's right. I'm not hesitating here. 2 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I have this on a video 3 clip. Would you like to see how Mr. Minton responds 4 to these questions on video? 5 THE COURT: No. I asked him about it 6 yesterday, when he was telling me about when he did 7 first have this conversation with you. I'm quite 8 satisfied, from what his responses were yesterday 9 when he was discussing this, that this is what he 10 meant to say on that deposition. 11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 12 (A discussion was held off the record.) 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q All right. Let's just continue on. 15 On page 223 at line 8, it says -- Mr. Moxon says, 16 the third question, "You had a chance to --" 17 A Which -- which line are we on? 18 Q Same page, 223, line 8. He asked you for the 19 third time, "It never happened?" 20 And you answer, "No." 21 A Right. 22 Q Okay. And then he asked you, "Have you talked to 23 anyone in the family -- anyone in the family -- about money 24 coming to the Lisa McPherson Trust arising out of hoped-for 25 proceeds of this case?" 0896 1 And you answer, "No. No." 2 A Right. 3 Q And then he says, "Have you talked to anyone in 4 the family about potential proceeds in this case going to a, 5 quote, anticult, end quote, organization? 6 "Answer: No." 7 Where are we -- down on line 21 -- he's asked you 8 this question what, five, six, seven, eight times. Your 9 answer's always been the same. And you're telling us you 10 couldn't remember in May of 2000 that you had this -- this 11 conversation with Dell Liebreich in a steakhouse? 12 A I'm saying I didn't remember. 13 Q Turning to page 239, beginning at line 11 -- this 14 is 239 -- 15 A 11? 16 Q Line 10. 17 A Okay. 18 Q "Have you had any --" or, "Do you have --" 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Where are you again? 20 MR. DANDAR: 239. 21 THE COURT: Let me get there. 22 Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: I messed up too. Line 10. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q "Have you had any communications with any other 0897 1 family member I haven't mentioned? 2 "Answer: Not to my knowledge." 3 He's giving you another opportunity -- do you 4 agree with that -- to reflect and see if you talked to any 5 family member. 6 A No. It's asking me whether I had any written 7 communications. 8 Q Okay. Line 13, "Do you have any agreement of any 9 kind with the estate of Lisa McPherson? 10 "Answer: No." 11 Another opportunity, correct, Mr. Minton, to 12 reflect and think about whether or not you had any agreement 13 of any kind with the estate of Lisa McPherson? 14 A That's a wrong answer. You know, maybe I just 15 didn't remember. But there was clearly an agreement then. 16 You know, there were two agreements. 17 Q Line 16 -- 18 THE COURT: Well, this wasn't a lie; this was 19 just simply -- what you're suggesting to me here 20 today, this wasn't a lie; this was just inaccurate. 21 Because you never suggested that Mr. Dandar told you 22 to lie about this -- 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 THE COURT: -- in this deposition. 25 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't. No, I didn't. 0898 1 THE COURT: So I guess then we have to assume 2 that it's incorrect. And you're saying it's not a 3 lie, then it's not a lie; then it just must be 4 incorrect. Faulty memory. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, that's the -- maybe. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And again -- 8 THE COURT: Is that true, sir? I mean, I don't 9 know what else it could be. It's either going to be 10 the truth, a lie or it's some -- it's incorrect. If 11 it's incorrect, it's either a lie or you just didn't 12 remember it very well. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, I -- I knew what 14 was going on at that time in terms of the 15 agreements. I don't know why I said no. 16 THE COURT: Well, were you intentionally lying? 17 THE WITNESS: No. I -- I don't believe I was, 18 your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Then -- then you explain it 20 to me. 21 THE WITNESS: I don't have -- 22 THE COURT: Would it have been the truth? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. 25 0899 Dandar cross (Minton, May 23, 2002, at 900) Judge S. says at the bottom of 900 going onto 901 that this agreement is not an agreement, she doesn't like the terminology, but she accepts it so that it's distinguished from the loan repayment. 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Line 16, Mr. Minton, on page 239, "Question: Does 3 the Lisa McPherson Trust have any agreement with the estate 4 of Lisa McPherson? 5 "Answer: No." 6 True or false? 7 A That is correct. It was with me. 8 Q Question -- Question, line 19, "Does the Lisa 9 McPherson Trust have any agreement with any family member? 10 "Answer: No." 11 Is that a correct answer? 12 A That's a correct answer. 13 Q So this -- this agreement that you say exists is 14 an agreement between who? 15 A It was an agreement between -- 16 Well, you're talking about the -- what's now the 17 secret agreement. 18 Q Well, let's -- I don't -- 19 What you call the secret agreement. That's fine. 20 A You coined the term. 21 THE COURT: Well, at least as long as we all 22 know what we're talking about, let's get on with it. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. There -- there are two 24 agreements. 25 THE COURT: As I told you, frankly -- I'll say 0900 1 it now and I'll say it again and again -- there was 2 no agreement. There was nothing that I consider 3 under the law that would ever be accepted as an 4 agreement. Period. End. So if you don't want to 5 call it -- you know, secret agreement -- that's 6 even -- I mean, it ain't an agreement, but if you 7 want to call it an agreement, if you want to call it 8 a secret agreement, as long as we all know what 9 you're talking about, that's fine. So go ahead and 10 call it a secret agreement. 11 MR. DANDAR: I'll use the term to keep it 12 straight between the repayment of the loans. 13 THE COURT: That would be good. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Okay. Mr. Minton, who has the secret agreement? 16 Where are -- who are the parties to the secret agreement? 17 A Well, clearly, me and the estate. 18 Q You personally. 19 A Well, yes. I mean, the -- the -- the thing has 20 shifted from FACTNet to the LMT to a future organization 21 that Stacy and I might set up. 22 THE COURT: No, no. He's asking you if the 23 agreement, whatever this agreement is, is with you 24 personally. Is the answer to that yes? 25 THE WITNESS: I did answer yes. And the reason 0901 1 I'm explaining why it's yes, is, you know, 2 obviously, when it starts with the proceeds going to 3 FACTNet, and then you go to the LMT, and then you go 4 to a future organization to be set up after the 5 LMT's dissolved, it's obviously following me. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And of course, you are not a nonprofit 8 organization, are you? Silly question, but -- 9 THE COURT: That's so obvious you don't even 10 have to ask it. 11 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going to ask it. 12 THE COURT: So if the agreement was with you, 13 it's pretty obvious, isn't it -- that's exactly what 14 you're trying to say -- that there was no 15 understandings about it going to any nonprofit. 16 It's going to you. 17 THE WITNESS: No. Your Honor, that's -- 18 THE COURT: Then -- 19 THE WITNESS: That's not -- that's not an 20 understanding that I would agree with whatsoever. 21 THE COURT: So then the agreement wasn't with 22 you. 23 THE WITNESS: The agreement was with me. 24 The -- FACTNet was a nonprofit. It was going to go 25 to FACTNet. LMT was a for profit, which Mr. Dandar 0902 1 said we would convert to a nonprofit when the time 2 came. 3 Okay. There was never any question of the 4 money going to me. 5 THE COURT: You then were going to put it in -- 6 the money was to come to you -- 7 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: -- you were going to put it in a 9 nonprofit -- 10 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. You know, I -- 11 I've discussed this numerous times. But it's -- 12 THE COURT: You know, I hate to ask you to 13 repeat it and repeat it, but quite frankly, it's 14 very confusing, you must admit. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, it's -- okay. I agree it's 16 confusing. 17 But the money was always going to be put in a 18 nonprofit, because the estate wanted to make sure 19 that it was going to get that tax benefit of the 20 donation to a nonprofit. 21 THE COURT: Yes. But this is Ms. Liebreich and 22 her sisters. They -- they had all this information? 23 THE WITNESS: No. I -- I told you, this is 24 Mr. Dandar. I mean, he's the guy that is the 25 attorney for the estate; he's the one who talked 0903 1 about this thing from the beginning; he's the one 2 who talked about setting up the LMT; he's the one 3 who set up the LMT; he's the one who said it's going 4 to be nonprofit when the time comes to distribute 5 money. 6 You know, this is -- 7 THE COURT: So then clearly he was in control 8 of things, not you. 9 THE WITNESS: He -- he was in control of the 10 aspects of this that related to the family. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: You know -- I mean -- you know, I 13 was not calling up Dell Liebreich and she wasn't 14 calling me up. You know, we talked, you know, maybe 15 a couple of times on the phone. Ann Carlson sent me 16 a couple of cards. And maybe either Lee Skelton or 17 Dell also sent me a card. But you know, there 18 wasn't any, you know, phone-to-phone, you know, 19 communication when we were going through all of 20 this. Dandar cross of Minton where Dandar asks Minton about Merrett's denial of a secret agreement (Minton, May 24, 2002 Hearing at 1117). 8 Q Now, Mr. Howie -- no, let's go back to the -- to 9 the New Hampshire weekend. 10 Isn't it true, Mr. Minton, at that dinner table in 11 front of Dr. Garko, you said, "My friends in Europe may be 12 interested in sending you money, but first you need to write 13 a letter to me and you need to get these people to stop 14 criticizing me on the Internet"? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Did I send you a letter as a result of that 17 conversation? 18 A The suck-up letter, yes. 19 Q That you call the suck-up letter? 20 A Yes. 21 Q But that was at your request? 22 A It was. I stated it. 23 Q Oh, sorry. 24 THE COURT: He said he was sucking up to you 25 but that is what he asked you to do, is that -- 1117 1 THE WITNESS: Right. Right. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q Do you think there is anything in what you call 4 the suck-up letter written by me that is not truthful? 5 A Yes. I think there are things in the suck-up 6 letter that are not truthful. 7 For example, the highlighted "secret agreement." 8 Q Oh. Okay. So it mentions a secret agreement. 9 You say one existed, right? 10 A I didn't come up with the term. You did. And you 11 put it in the letter. 12 Q Okay. And so did Mr. Merrett lie about that 13 yesterday, too? 14 A I wasn't here when he testified about it but I 15 heard that he testified about it. 16 Q Mr. Merrett said there was never an agreement 17 between me or the estate and you or the LMT to give any 18 amount of proceeds, over and above the loans that you 19 advanced. Is that -- 20 A If that is what he said, he said it incorrectly. 21 Q Okay. 22 A He may not have known. 23 Q Mr. Merrett said yesterday that you posted on the 24 Internet and you put it in an -- interviews in the Boston 25 Globe or wherever, TV, wherever -- 1118 1 A Yeah? 2 Q -- that there was this agreement that the LMT 3 would get the bulk of any proceeds from the wrongful death 4 case. 5 A Right. 6 Q And he said he confronted you about that, and you 7 told him, "Well, I know that's not true. I just wanted to 8 get Scientology all riled up about it." 9 A That is a total fabrication on his part. That is 10 not true. 11 Q What would be the motive of Mr. Merrett to lie 12 about that? 13 A You'll have to find out what his other motives 14 were for lying yesterday. I don't know. 15 Q You're not a lawyer, but do you have any idea of 16 the consequences of a member of the Florida Bar lying to a 17 circuit court judge? 18 A Do you? 19 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 20 THE COURT: Yes, that will be granted. We 21 really can't go there. We need to kind of move 22 through this. So just answer his question. 23 A I don't know. 24 THE COURT: Well, for one thing, it would be 25 the same thing as anybody else lying, it is perjury. 1119 1 Number two, a lawyer stands to lose a lawyer's 2 license, because that will just not be tolerated by 3 the licensing -- well, won't be tolerated by the 4 Florida Bar and, I dare say, won't be tolerated by 5 any other state bar that I could imagine. 6 MR. FUGATE: None that I'm aware of. 7 THE COURT: None that I'm aware of. Judge S. questioning Minton about the secret agreement during Dandar cross. She's asking him about what the people at Scn (e.g., Rinder, Yingling) knew about the secret agreement. (Minton, May 28, 2002 Hearing at 1449. 6 THE COURT: And the secret agreement, they 7 didn't know anything about the secret agreement? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, they ?? they knew something 9 about that. 10 THE COURT: They knew that there had been some 11 testimony in the depositions that there might have 12 been an agreement? 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 THE COURT: They knew there had been affidavits 15 filed saying there was no agreement? 16 THE WITNESS: Right. 17 THE COURT: So they didn't know if there was or 18 wasn't? 19 THE WITNESS: Right. 20 THE COURT: And certainly the lawyers for the 21 Church would have told them that whatever the 22 agreement was, it was fairly tenuous, not to be 23 enforced in any court of law that I know of. 24 So whatever it is they knew, that is ?? that is 25 what they knew based on the deposition testimony and 1449 1 the affidavits. Right? 2 THE WITNESS: That is right, your Honor. 3 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, Judge. At some point 4 I'm going to remember to bring my jury instructions 5 in with the agreement in conspiracy, to get back 6 updated, because I disagree with what you said. 7 THE COURT: You know, you?all disagree with it 8 all of the time. And I can hardly wait for 9 Mr. Minton to try to enforce that in a court in 10 Florida. And then we'll find out. 11 MR. FUGATE: I'm talking about my understanding 12 of what agreement is under the instruction, Judge. 13 THE COURT: You know what? The nice thing 14 about this is is that you're going to have a chance 15 to tell me what you think an agreement is when we 16 get into argument. Mr. Dandar will have a chance to 17 tell me what he thinks an agreement is. And then 18 I'm going to tell you?all what an agreement is. 19 MR. FUGATE: I somehow knew that thing might 20 happen. 21 THE COURT: All this money that I make, that is 22 what makes it all worthwhile. I will tell you what 23 an agreement is. 24 Now then, Mr. Minton, so your meeting, with 25 your lawyer's blessing, on the 6th, on this evening, 1450 1 to go in and tell this person that you have 2 described as one of the worst people that I can 3 imagine, one of your ?? certainly your enemy, right? Dandar cross of Minton asking what he thought he had to tell Scn at a meeting. (Minton, May 28, 2002 Hearing at 1472). 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Did you discuss anything else? 6 A No, that was it. 7 Q So after you gagged a little outside, you walked 8 in and said, "Okay, I committed perjury in the wrongful 9 death case depositions"? 10 A That is not what I said, Mr. Dandar. 11 Q How did you say it? "I forgot to tell you about 12 this check"? 13 A No. I said, "There are three main areas that I 14 need to talk to you about." 15 THE COURT: Now, the best thing for you to do 16 at this point is say what were they and step back 17 and let him say. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Okay, what were they? 20 THE COURT: He already told us that. I mean ?? 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 A So what did I say about the first area? 23 THE COURT: Thank you. You could be a lawyer. 24 All right. 25 1473 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Money, the meeting and secret agreement. Right? 3 A Right. 4 Q Okay. 5 THE COURT: What we want to know ?? I think 6 what counsel wants to know ?? 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE COURT: ?? you ?? you went back in ?? and 9 decided with Ms. Brooks it was time to go in and lay 10 it out? 11 THE WITNESS: Lay it out. 12 THE COURT: Now, what he would like to know, 13 when you went in there, what did you say? Judge S. questioning Minton about the third area that he discussed with the Scns (Minton, May 28, 2002 at 1482.) 12 THE COURT: Tell us, as best you can, about 13 what your recollection is what you said about that 14 April 6, I believe it is, meeting ?? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: ?? regarding that third issue. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well ?? 18 THE COURT: Then, Mr. Dandar, I'm going to let 19 you ask the questions that you have. 20 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead. 21 THE WITNESS: You know, I went from the 22 beginning, this first discussion with Mr. Dandar 23 back in the beginning of December of '97, and went 24 through ?? Mmm ?? the whole issue of the Church of 25 Scientology was making all these complaints about 1482 1 Mr. Dandar being an ambulance?chasing attorney and, 2 you know, Dell Liebreich being a money?grubbing old 3 woman. You know, that type of stuff that was being 4 said. 5 And that I'd ?? you know, that I'd suggested to 6 Mr. Dandar that ?? that in order to deflect this 7 type of criticism from Scientology, you know, that 8 the family ought to agree to donate the bulk of the 9 proceeds, or a substantial amount of the proceeds ?? 10 I don't remember which word I used in that 11 conversation ?? to, you know, an anti?cult group. 12 And, you know, then I went through the ?? the 13 whole process of ?? of ?? well, of how, later, 14 Mr. Dandar confirmed to me that this was ?? that 15 this money was going to go to FACTNet, whatever this 16 substantial amount was. I think it was 17 "substantial" at that time. It later became "bulk." 18 I explained how, when we ?? when Stacy and I 19 settled this FACTNet litigation, that ?? that 20 sometime shortly thereafter, you know, and by 21 shortly, I mean, you know, a few months after that, 22 in 1999, Mr. Dandar had told me about the fact that 23 the family wanted to set up, you know, a Lisa 24 McPherson type ?? a Lisa McPherson?named 25 organization. 1483 1 And that was probably in June or July. And the 2 thing that ?? well, I remember at the time I 3 registered a domain name for the Lisa Foundation, 4 you know, one of these Internet things, so that ?? 5 so when we went through the process of setting that 6 up, you know, that we would have a ready?made domain 7 so that ?? you know, for the website, for E?Mail, 8 things like that. 9 Mmm, you know, I explained how Mr. Dandar was 10 involved in setting up the LMT with us. I explained 11 our preparations for getting it set up. 12 THE COURT: Well, surely they already had the 13 corporate papers. 14 THE WITNESS: Right. But, you know, like you, 15 your Honor, they wanted a full story. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: They weren't looking for, you 18 know, little clues. They were looking for the 19 whole ?? the whole nine yards on it. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: Mmm, you know, I explained how 22 Mr. Dandar had made it very clear that this FACTNet 23 arrangement would ?? would then evolve into the 24 LMT ?? not evolve but would be the ?? the LMT would 25 be the beneficiary of the ?? of the substantial part 1484 1 or the bulk of the proceeds of the case. 2 Mmm, we set this thing up. You know, they 3 wanted to know, well, why was it set up nonprofit ?? 4 for profit. I explained we would turn it into a 5 nonprofit at a later date, you know, when there was 6 money on the table, to basically talk about 7 distributing. 8 Mmm, we talked about ?? 9 THE COURT: Did you tell them the reason why it 10 was set up for profit, because you wanted them to 11 keep their "damn nose" out of it? 12 THE WITNESS: I did. I did. 13 THE COURT: Because I remember reading that. 14 THE WITNESS: I did. I did. You know, I mean, 15 at all times we were frank about these things. I 16 mean, you know, there wasn't any reason to, you 17 know, pull any punches at that stage. I think they 18 pretty much heard every nasty thing that could 19 possibly be said about them from me before, so there 20 wasn't anything to hide in that respect. 21 Mmm, you know, and the ?? 22 THE COURT: I guess what he really ?? 23 Mr. Dandar really wants to know is you testified 24 about all three of these things at great length in 25 this courtroom, about these three areas. Is there 1485 1 anything you told them ?? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes? 3 THE COURT: ?? that you told them that you 4 haven't told us? Or did you tell them anything 5 different from what you told us? Or did you tell 6 them what you told us about these three areas? 7 THE WITNESS: You know, I think I have told 8 them the same thing I have told you. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: You know, there is no doubt that 11 at times some things were forgotten, you know. And 12 later, a lot of questions came up because some of 13 these areas were, you know, areas which they were 14 not aware of. And I think ?? I think that night 15 Mr. ?? what Mr. Rinder said they were going to do is 16 they were going to put together documentation that 17 related to these areas in which we had talked about. 18 And over the course of several days, they did 19 that. And I believe, you know, the first time that 20 they showed us documents from that ?? that initial 21 Saturday night meeting was the day after Judge 22 Baird's contempt hearing. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 THE WITNESS: And they had a lot of questions 25 once they had the documents, you know, to cover ?? 1486 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: ?? these areas. 3 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, you have been very 4 good. Thank you. Now you can ask your specific 5 questions. Mirele mirele@sonic.net ||||| Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: What Stacy's attorney said about the 'secret agreement' From: Deana Holmes References: <0a367b527a46c90b476cd9fd27571c2a@melontraffickers.com> <3D4AEDE4.9040804@voicenet.com> <3d4c31f8.137882051@news.verizon.net> <235931a8eaeb5be5937a96bea355a030@melontraffickers.com> <3D4D44A4.5010107@voicenet.com> Organization: Scientology Killed Lisa McPherson Message-ID: User-Agent: Xnews/5.03.24 Lines: 1034 Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 17:13:34 GMT NNTP-Posting-Host: 64.24.210.143 X-Complaints-To: abuse@sonic.net X-Trace: typhoon.sonic.net 1028481214 64.24.210.143 (Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:13:34 PDT) NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 04 Aug 2002 10:13:34 PDT Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!usenet.INS.cwru.edu!HSNX.atgi.net!feed.news.sonic.net!typhoon.sonic.net!not-for-mail Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1540977 John Merrett was Stacy's attorney and this is what he testified to regarding the alleged "secret agreement" to fund an anti-cult group from the proceeds of the Lisa McPherson lawsuit. Rod, if you keep posting crap about there being an agreement, I'm going to keep posting this to refute your ongoing lies. Best tell Stacy to find something else to harp on instead of this. Mirele mirele@sonic.net Dandar direct of John Merrett reporting a conversation with Stacy Brooks (Merrett, May 23, 2002 at 18) 3 Q Did he say to you that through his testimony the 4 Church of Scientology has filed a motion to disqualify me as 5 counsel and motion to dismiss the Lisa McPherson case? 6 A He told me that such motions had been filed. He 7 told me that -- or I guess I had the impression that either 8 his testimony or statements he made out of court were 9 regarded as being supportive of those motions. 10 Q What did Ms. Brooks -- did he get into any detail 11 about what that is? 12 A Only he said that he had recanted testimony about 13 the absence of a secret agreement regarding disposition of 14 the possible proceeds of the wrongful death case. Dandar direct of John Merrett on how there is no secret agreement (Merrett, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 20). 8 Q Did you hear, while you were representing the LMT, 9 Minton or Brooks, about the so-called secret agreement? 10 A I only heard that there was not one. 11 Q When did you hear that? 12 A At the times that the issue was being raised by 13 Scientology in connection with the wrongful death case, and 14 I assume during deposition prep. 15 But as it cropped up in the course of the 16 litigation, as it was brought to the surface of the wrongful 17 death litigation, is when the subject came up. Dandar direct of Merrett on what he knew of a secret agreement (Merrett, May 23, 2002 at 22) 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q In reference to the issue of a secret agreement, 10 what did you do in reference to representing your clients 11 about that? 12 A During the time that I represented them, my 13 clients were never confronted with any issue that involved 14 their interests. It only came up with respect to my clients 15 as a subject of inquiry during their deposition. 16 Q And your clients, again, are who? 17 A At that time they were Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks and 18 the LMT. And there were other people affiliated with the 19 LMT who I represented through the discovery process. 20 Q As part of this issue that you previously said was 21 raised by the Church of Scientology concerning a secret 22 agreement? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, your Honor, we never 24 raised an issue of a secret agreement. We asked 25 questions about an agreement. The whole concept of 22 1 a secret agreement came out in Mr. Minton's 2 affidavit, after Ms. Brooks. So he keeps saying -- 3 I object to the form. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 MR. DANDAR: I take issue with that but I 6 don't -- I'll just go ahead. 7 THE COURT: You don't need to go there. 8 MR. DANDAR: We don't need to go there. 9 A I know what agreement you're talking about. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q You tell me what the agreement I'm talking about 12 is then. 13 A It was alleged, and Mr. Minton stated in a radio 14 address sometime back '97, '98, ' 99, sometime like that, 15 that there was than an agreement that the bulk of the 16 proceeds of any wrongful death suit filed on behalf of the 17 estate of Lisa McPherson would be donated to some 18 organization. I believe it was specified to be a nonprofit 19 organization that was engaged in anti-cult activities. That 20 was the agreement that he had talked about in a non- judicial 21 setting, that I had seen a transcript offered in evidence, 22 and shown around in depositions. 23 And he had confirmed it, of course, in deposition 24 and, I don't know if, by that time, in court testimony, but 25 certainly in deposition that he had made the statement. 23 1 That was also the substance of the allegation at 2 the time -- times that it cropped up during the course of 3 the wrongful death case. Dandar direct of Merrett, who says he drafted the affidavits denying a secret agreement (Merrett, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 32) 2 Q Now let's go back to the secret agreement. Do you 3 recall preparing affidavits for your clients to file in the 4 Lisa McPherson wrongful death case concerning the absence of 5 a secret agreement? 6 A Yes. I say that. I recall that my clients did, 7 and I believe I drafted them. 8 Q Let me hand them up to you so you can take a look 9 at them. 10 MR. DANDAR: I don't know if this is already an 11 exhibit or not. 12 MR. FUGATE: I believe it is Defendant's 111, 13 your Honor. 14 MR. DANDAR: Is it? 15 MR. FUGATE: No. I thought it was the 16 affidavit he was talking about. 17 MR. DANDAR: I'll have it marked by the clerk 18 as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number -- 19 THE CLERK: 44. 20 MR. DANDAR: -- 44. Direct questioning by judge of Merrett re secret agreement and he reiterates to her that it did not exist (Merrett, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 74). 2 THE COURT: All right. Now, as I recall in the 3 course of the testimony -- and I could be wrong, I 4 have heard so much, it's getting on to that magic 5 hour -- my recollection of what Ms. Brooks testified 6 in this hearing that she testified falsely about was 7 this agreement, the agreement -- I think we are now 8 calling it a secret agreement. 9 MR. DANDAR: We are calling it a secret 10 agreement. 11 THE COURT: But because we have an agreement, 12 we have a couple things we are talking about. It's 13 that part of the issue in this case as to whether or 14 not there was ever an agreement between Mr. Minton 15 and the estate of Lisa McPherson that the bulk of, 16 substantial portion, vast amount, nobody knows 17 exactly, would be given to an anti-cult organization 18 which could have been FACTNet, could have been LMT 19 or could have been some other one, that is the basic 20 agreement. Like I said -- I have said, there is no 21 agreement. But that is what we're calling the 22 secret agreement. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 24 THE COURT: Now, what I recall is that 25 Ms. Brooks said she testified falsely about it in 74 1 her deposition. So I'm going to assume that she 2 said in her deposition it didn't exist because she 3 now says it did exist. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, by application of 5 reason, she would have had to have said it didn't 6 exist because my understanding was that it didn't 7 exist. 8 THE COURT: So it didn't exist. So your 9 understanding was it didn't exist? 10 THE WITNESS: Correct. 11 THE COURT: She said it didn't exist. 12 THE WITNESS: I believe she said it didn't 13 exist. 14 THE COURT: Which would comport with what she 15 told you just recently, is that you had helped her 16 to answer the question but you didn't know it was 17 false. 18 THE WITNESS: Correct. 19 THE COURT: And she didn't mean to imply to us 20 here that you had coached her to testify 21 untruthfully. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 THE COURT: So that all kind of fits, doesn't 24 it? 25 MR. DANDAR: That is it. That is it. All 75 1 right. Questioning by Judge S. of Merrett regarding the secret agreement. Merrett goes into a lot of detail about Minton mouthing off on the radio but also says that he did not draft a contract or a secret agreement covering a possible judgment. (Merrett, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 239). 10 THE COURT: All right. I have just one. I'm a 11 little confused, and maybe you have answered it. 12 Early on in your testimony, you were asked 13 about an agreement that Mr. Minton had talked about 14 on a radio show. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 16 THE COURT: Do you know what I'm talking about? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 18 THE COURT: I think we identified it here as a 19 secret agreement. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Did he ever discuss this 22 agreement with you? 23 THE WITNESS: To this extent, your Honor. I 24 was -- I was being asked to assist in maintaining, 25 as private, what was represented to me to be private 239 1 business that didn't have anything to do with the 2 facts of the case. Now, that included the financial 3 relationship between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar and 4 the estate case, that financial -- however many arms 5 it has, that financial arrangement. 6 And I was repeatedly perplexed, I could never 7 make sense, of why it was -- why it was so important 8 to keep it private, to keep, you know, whatever kind 9 of agreement there had been, whether it was the 10 agreement that money was going to go from the 11 lawsuit to the LMT or some other organization, or 12 whatever, or whether that was never the arrangement, 13 I could never figure out why it was important to 14 keep that private because I could never see anything 15 right or wrong with it, either way. I mean, if they 16 want to spend the money on malt liquor and 17 Cadillacs, that is okay. 18 THE COURT: If they want to give it to an 19 anti-cult organization, that is okay. 20 THE WITNESS: If they want to turn around and 21 give it to Scientology, that is okay. 22 And I did ask him. At one point I said to him, 23 "You know, the only reason that you're having the 24 trouble you're having now is you are shooting your 25 mouth off on the radio. Why in the hell did you say 240 1 that?" 2 His only response was, "I said it. That is 3 what I said. And that's it." 4 And it -- it was always represented to me, 5 including in affidavits I assisted Mr. Minton in 6 drafting, that there was no such agreement, that 7 there was no -- no particular -- Mmm, there was 8 no -- Mmm, guarantee. 9 THE COURT: Meeting of the minds? 10 THE WITNESS: Right, that that is what was 11 going to happen with the money. 12 But that is the discussion we had about it is, 13 one, it didn't exist. Two -- and the only answer I 14 ever got about why it was private is it was a matter 15 he regarded as intensely private. 16 And, you know, I'm a very private person. But 17 I think that well before the amount of aggravation 18 that caused him to start talking about it, it 19 wouldn't have mattered what it was, I would have 20 gone ahead and told him -- 21 THE COURT: So if you were his lawyer -- if you 22 were -- and he wanted to have an agreement with the 23 estate regarding the proceeds -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 25 THE COURT: -- you would have been quite 241 1 capable, I believe, of drawing up any such agreement 2 that might withstand some scrutiny? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 4 THE COURT: Were you ever asked by him to draw 5 up an agreement? 6 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. 7 THE COURT: Did you ever hear anybody talk 8 about an amount or percentage, or did you always 9 just hear these vague -- just vast amount, 10 substantial amount, bulk? 11 THE WITNESS: What I heard, your Honor, was the 12 transcript, I don't know which one, one of the radio 13 shows, because apparently he said it twice on the 14 radio, that there was this agreement. 15 Then I heard the allegations of the defendant 16 that this agreement had existed and -- that it did 17 exist, but that it -- or that it continued to exist. 18 And Mr. Minton told me that it didn't exist. 19 That was all that I knew of it. And because I never 20 get to brag about it, I would like to tell you I'm 21 capable of drafting a contract. 22 THE COURT: All right. So he certainly never 23 asked you to draw up some sort of agreement? 24 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. 25 THE COURT: And however it was referred to on 242 1 the radio, in any of these depositions, anything you 2 have seen, did you ever hear anybody talk about any 3 type of what you might or I might perceive of as an 4 agreement? 5 THE WITNESS: Not as being one that existed. 6 As I say, I heard that radio talk -- I heard the 7 allegations made by the defendant and I heard the 8 statements from Mr. Minton that there was not an 9 agreement. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Even on the radio, as it was 11 expressed on the radio -- 12 THE WITNESS: It was pretty vague. 13 THE COURT: -- it was pretty vague. The bulk 14 of an amount, if there is a sufficient recovery, 15 if -- if this is paid, and if that is paid? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 17 THE COURT: That is about as good as it gets, 18 isn't it? 19 THE WITNESS: That is as precise as any version 20 of it that I ever heard, either -- either from the 21 radio transcripts or being alleged. 22 THE COURT: So when -- when your clients said 23 in deposition, no, there was never any agreement, 24 that did not surprise you? 25 THE WITNESS: No, ma'am. 243 1 THE COURT: That was consistent with what he 2 told you? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 4 THE COURT: Except what he said on the radio? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. And as I say, I 6 asked him about it. And he said, "Hey --" and, you 7 know, I was asked about the difference between the 8 way he writes on the Internet and the way he speaks 9 in deposition. And -- and -- Mmm, a little bit of 10 chain yanking would not have been out of character 11 on the radio. 12 THE COURT: You think it's possible that in 13 this case -- no, too late. I'm not going there. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 15 THE COURT: I'll ask that of Mr. Minton, maybe, 16 myself. 17 But anybody need this witness any more? Moxon cross of Merrett, with Judge S. taking a role in the questioning. She points out from a Minton depo that Minton said there was no such agreement. (Merrett, May 23, 2002 Hearing at 247). 4 BY MR. MOXON: 5 Q Exhibit Number 26, which is a posting to the 6 Internet dated February 2, 2000: "Subject: The future of 7 the Lisa McPherson Trust." 8 I asked, "Did you make this post to the Internet? 9 "Answer: It looks like one of mine, yes. 10 "Question: --" 11 THE COURT: Where are you, counsel? 12 MR. MOXON: I'm on Page 424 of his deposition 13 of May 24, 2000. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. FUGATE: Your page reference, your Honor, 16 is Page 239 to that deposition. 17 MR. MOXON: What? 18 THE COURT: I'm asking him where he's reading. 19 424? 20 MR. MOXON: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 22 BY MR. MOXON: 23 Q I said, top of Page 425, "At the top of the second 24 page of Exhibit 26 it states --" and then I get interrupted, 25 and then I go ahead, at line 11, "At the top of the second 247 1 page it states: 'The family of Lisa McPherson has given us 2 their full support and, as you know, promised to give the 3 vast majority of any settlement or award from trial to the 4 Lisa McPherson Trust.' Correct? 5 "Answer: That's correct. 6 "Question: And you got that information from 7 Mr. Dandar? Right? 8 "Answer: That's correct." 9 Were you present when those questions were asked 10 of Mr. Minton and he gave those answers? 11 A If the question and answer are reflected in the 12 transcript of a deposition which also reflects my 13 attendance, yes. I have no independent recollection of the 14 question or the answer. 15 Q You didn't make any effort to correct the record 16 at this point that there was, indeed, an agreement, Mr. 17 Minton believed he had an agreement that the Lisa McPherson 18 Trust would get money at the end of this case? 19 A Well, actually, I know this is going to be 20 terrible news for you, what I said after the answer was: "I 21 apologize, the preceding question -- I did not catch the 22 question, whether you were asking if the substance was 23 correct or if that was the statement that was made." 24 And I don't know what comes after that other than 25 Mr. Minton's answer, that that's the statement -- which I 248 1 assume is that's the statement I made. 2 Q I'll give you the next page. We continue. He 3 says: "I wrote that. 4 "Question: You wrote that? 5 "Answer: Yeah. 6 "Question: The information -- the basis for this 7 is from information you got from Mr. Dandar? 8 "Answer: That's correct. Yes. 9 "Question: No other source? 10 "Answer: Correct. 11 "Question: And you announced this to the world 12 then on the Internet, correct? Is that right? 13 "Answer: To all the world to read it." 14 A Okay. What is your question? 15 Q My question is you made no attempt to change or 16 correct anything on the record -- 17 THE COURT: Well, he already said he posted it 18 on the Internet. 19 MR. MOXON: My point is Mr. Merrett is now 20 asserting there was no agreement. And I think it's 21 pretty obvious -- 22 THE WITNESS: Let me make it clear -- 23 THE COURT: I understand it, counsel. 24 THE WITNESS: -- I don't know whether there was 25 an agreement or not. 249 1 MR. MOXON: Good. That is all I want to know. 2 THE COURT: But you can read that is about an 3 Internet posting. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 5 THE COURT: You already told us that he -- he 6 sometimes exaggerates. 7 Let me read to you from the same deposition 8 about an agreement, this is on Page 238, the same 9 deposition where you attended, apparently, May 24 of 10 2000. 11 "Do you have any agreement of any kind with the 12 estate of Lisa McPherson? 13 "Answer: No. 14 "Does the Lisa McPherson Trust have any 15 agreement with the estate of Lisa McPherson? 16 "Answer: No. 17 "Question: Does the estate of Lisa McPherson 18 have any agreement with any family members? 19 "Answer: No." 20 Where is the other reference? It is even 21 clearer. Do you remember? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: I remember some testimony on 24 391 to 394, your Honor, I think. 25 THE COURT: Let's look. 250 1 MR. WEINBERG: How can you remember that? 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: I may stand corrected. Let me 3 see. 4 MR. MOXON: That is exactly right, Page 392, 5 391 to 394, he affirms the agreement again. 6 THE COURT: If you don't mind, I think you are 7 done and I think it is my turn, and I'm looking for 8 what it is I want to look for, and I don't need you 9 to find it. I'm going to find it. 10 MR. DANDAR: 223, Judge. 11 THE COURT: I don't need your help, either. 12 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I'm sorry. I thought you 13 asked for it. I'm sorry. 14 THE COURT: Oh, yes, here it is. I knew I had 15 marked it. 16 "Question: Have you ever talked to Dell 17 Liebreich about what would happen to the hoped-for 18 proceeds in this case? 19 "No. 20 "Question: Have you ever had any discussion 21 with her about money coming to the Lisa McPherson 22 Trust? 23 "Answer: No. 24 "It never happened? 25 "Answer: No. 251 1 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the 2 family about money coming for Lisa McPherson Trust 3 arising out of any hoped-for proceeds? 4 "Answer. No. No. 5 "Question: Have you talked to anyone in the 6 family about the potential proceeds in this case 7 going to a 'anti-cult' organization? 8 "Answer: No." 9 Did that seem fairly consistent with what you 10 had been told by your own client? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. And I think a big 12 part of what is going on is pure donative promises. 13 THE COURT: Yes. I know what happened. 14 Sometimes -- 15 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Minton, being in 16 business, knows the difference between an agreement 17 and -- 18 THE COURT: Oh -- 19 THE WITNESS: -- "Hey, when I hit the lottery, 20 you are fixed, judge." 21 That is not quite the same thing when we have 22 an agreement where you will kick in for lottery 23 tickets and split the proceeds. 24 THE COURT: And having represented Mr. Minton, 25 was it your belief that he hoped that if there was a 252 1 big recovery, that -- 2 THE WITNESS: He would be paid back. 3 THE COURT: Well, number one, he was going to 4 be paid back from money he loaned to Mr. Dandar and, 5 number two, he hoped the family would honor what he 6 thought they were saying, which was they didn't need 7 a whole bunch of money -- I don't know how old these 8 folks are -- but they didn't need $80 million, which 9 were the figures floating around at the time, but he 10 kind of hoped they would contribute to the Lisa 11 McPherson Trust or something just like it so they 12 could fight Scientology forever and ever? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. And I can tell you 14 that he has both testified and told me he has lent 15 substantial sums of money in the same spirit, in the 16 hope that if the person gets a job or comes into 17 money or whatever, that it will be paid back, but 18 without getting a note, without having anything 19 enforceable. 20 MR. MOXON: I think I just have one last 21 question then. 22 BY MR. MOXON: 23 Q Do you recall, during the deposition, where -- 24 THE COURT: You have asked enough questions, 25 counselor. Thank you. You can point to me anything 253 1 you want to from the deposition. We really don't 2 need to hear from this guy any more. 3 All right, thank you very much for coming. You 4 may be excused. 5 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor.