Peter Alexander Transcripts // June 24 2002 - AM session
Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida
Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500
Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500
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1
2
3 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
4 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11
5
6
7
DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal
8 Representative of the ESTATE OF
LISA McPHERSON,
9
10 Plaintiff,
11 vs. VOLUME 1
12 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG
SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS
13 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI
and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S.,
14
Defendants.
15
_______________________________________/
16
17
18 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for
Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief.
19
CONTENTS: Testimony of Peter Alexander.
20
DATE: June 7, 2002, morning session.
21
PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building
22 St. Petersburg, Florida.
23 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer,
Circuit Judge.
24
REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR,
25 Deputy Official Court Reporter,
Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida.
2
1 APPEARANCES:
2
MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR
3 DANDAR & DANDAR
5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201
4 Tampa, FL 33602
Attorneys for Plaintiff.
5
MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT
6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA
112 N East Street, Street, Suite B
7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108
Attorney for Plaintiff
8
MR. KENDRICK MOXON
9 MOXON & KOBRIN
1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900
10 Clearwater, FL 33755
Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service
11 Organization.
12 MR. LEE FUGATE and
MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR.
13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER
101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200
14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147
Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service
15 Organization.
16 MR. BRUCE HOWIE
5720 Central Avenue
17 St. Petersburg, Florida.
Attorney for Robert Minton.
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1 INDEX TO PROCEEDINGS AND EXHIBITS
2 PAGE LINE
3 PETER NICHOLAS ALEXANDER 22 11
DIRECT Mr. Dandar 22 14
4 Recess 67 2
Recess 139 8
5 Reporter's Certificate 140 1
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1 (The proceedings resumed at 9:07 a.m.)
2 THE COURT: All right.
3 MR. DANDAR: Judge, before we call our witness,
4 Mr. Alexander, who's in the courtroom, I just want
5 to bring to the court something that I tried to work
6 out but I couldn't.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. DANDAR: We filed a request to produce at
9 hearing against -- for the Church of Scientology to
10 produce certain things. They filed a written reply.
11 We talked about this, I think, yesterday.
12 And in request number 3, it asks for each and
13 every routing slip concerning Lisa McPherson, and
14 they responded I already had it. And they referred
15 to a letter they sent to me July 31st, 1998.
16 I confirmed with my office. That letter just
17 says, "Attached are documents." It doesn't say what
18 they are. It doesn't refer to any Bates numbers so
19 we can try to figure out what they are calling a
20 routing form or a routing slip.
21 THE COURT: What is a base number?
22 MR. DANDAR: Bates.
23 THE COURT: Oh, Bates.
24 MR. DANDAR: Where they'll put FSO and they'll
25 put a number after it.
5
1 So I'm asking the court to require them to
2 produce what is known as routing slips or routing
3 forms on Lisa McPherson Monday morning, because I
4 have no way to ascertain what they're referring to
5 as routing slips. Because they never mentioned the
6 word in this letter of July 31st, 1998, nor do they
7 mention it on March 23rd, 2000 in a hearing before
8 Judge Moody, which they refer to also in response to
9 request number 3. I just don't -- I can't find it,
10 I don't think I have it. They say I have it, but
11 there's no document that says, "We've produced the
12 routing forms to you and here they are."
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, we had this discussion
15 before we came in -- before you came in this
16 morning. I looked at them. I looked at -- I looked
17 back as I said, looked at everything. I told him,
18 "You've got them. I'll get the Bates numbers for
19 you."
20 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, you're not leaving me,
21 are you?
22 MR. HOWIE: No, your Honor. I'll be right
23 back. Promise.
24 THE COURT: Well, all right.
25 MR. FUGATE: And I -- the only thing I can tell
6
1 your Honor is I'm trying to get the Bates numbers.
2 I'll give him the Bates numbers. If he still can't
3 find them -- I guess we've got to be the file clerk
4 and go give them to him again. But I checked myself
5 to see that they had been delivered, and I'm getting
6 the Bates numbers of the actual items.
7 Because as you'll recall the other day, there
8 was testimony about, well, these had these
9 fraudulent FDLE Bates numbers on them. Mr. Dandar
10 knows that everything that's in this case that was
11 received and provided to him and to the estate was
12 carefully Bates numbered so that it identified who
13 the documents had come from -- state attorney's
14 office, FDLE, Clearwater PD; whether it came from
15 FSO, whether it came from Mr. Dandar -- so we can
16 keep track internally of whatever it was.
17 So if I can get Bates numbers, I'll give the
18 Bates numbers today. I've put a call in for that.
19 I don't have the file with me today to pull that
20 out. I can tell you I've looked at it, I know that
21 it went there. So I don't know what the problem is
22 with his office. But I will get the Bates numbers
23 and give it to him.
24 THE COURT: Okay. I have -- if you -- if you
25 gave that to him with a lot of other things and it
7
1 didn't say "routing slips," I suppose I can
2 understand that. I just know from this one hearing
3 and several other things we've had, things can get
4 fairly massive. And if he didn't know what the
5 routing slips were, then I'm going to request that
6 you give him either the Bates numbers --
7 MR. FUGATE: I would tell the court I've asked
8 to get the Bates numbers and --
9 THE COURT: Would that do it for you?
10 MR. DANDAR: Then we'll go and see if we can
11 figure it out and if we can find it in our office.
12 It would be so much easier -- I mean, if they're
13 going to pull out the Bates numbers they might as
14 well just pull out the form --
15 THE COURT: If the Bates numbers have the
16 forms -- I don't know if these are massive or
17 whether these are just 10 documents. I have no idea
18 because I don't know what a routing -- I don't know
19 what a routing slip is. But --
20 MR. FUGATE: Well, a routing slip is a
21 misnomer.
22 But I will go back and look at them. You know,
23 I just -- to tell you the truth, I looked at
24 everything the other night and I couldn't tell you,
25 as I stand here, how many there were.
8
1 THE COURT: You're not feeling good today.
2 MR. FUGATE: No, I'm not.
3 THE COURT: I can tell.
4 MR. FUGATE: But I will -- I've put a call back
5 in to get the Bates numbers and I'll get those.
6 And also I told -- Mr. Dandar requested -- I
7 told Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar we'll put together --
8 we will provide, actually, the entire Dell Liebreich
9 depositions, but we will put together the page
10 numbers for him that we intend to play in our --
11 what we call the highlighted portions of the videos.
12 And I told him that when I have that put together,
13 I'll leave a message on his answering machine at his
14 office so that he knows what portions we're going to
15 have on what day.
16 THE COURT: Okay.
17 MR. FUGATE: And we can clear that up too.
18 THE COURT: And then, of course, you can, I
19 suppose, for cross examination, if you want to,
20 either play a part, or if you just want to read a
21 part. But what we've agreed to is that since it's
22 coming from a document, that the document will be
23 introduced. So as far as I'm concerned, you can
24 waive and refer to it or you can simply refer me in
25 your cross examination to page and line or play it
9
1 on the machine or whatever you want to do.
2 MR. FUGATE: And we will give, obviously, a
3 copy of the tape, what I call a compendium that
4 we're going to play -- we'll give them a copy of it
5 on Monday as well, Judge.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. FUGATE: So you've got it both ways.
8 THE COURT: Good. That sounds like a
9 reasonable solution.
10 MR. DANDAR: I'd like to request the court to
11 give Mr. Fugate permission to sit, not to stand,
12 because he doesn't look too well at all.
13 MR. FUGATE: I think I feel better standing up.
14 THE COURT: Do you? Well, he does look bad.
15 And he approached me in the hall with great caution,
16 saying, "I'm going to stand way back." And I said,
17 "Please do." So he --
18 This is an order. You're not going to get real
19 close to any of us if you're not feeling well.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm just hoping it stays in that
21 direction, because it's Lieberman, Fugate --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: Let's hope it doesn't work
24 around the table --
25 THE COURT: Your lady over there. I don't know
10
1 her name --
2 MR. FUGATE: Sarah.
3 THE COURT: Sarah, I'd be real careful if I
4 were you, because it looks like it's going that way.
5 Mr. Howie. Where is Mr. Howie?
6 MR. FUGATE: Judge, for the record, the Bates
7 numbers, Mr. Dandar, FSO --
8 THE COURT: Wait a second. He doesn't even
9 have a piece of paper.
10 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead.
11 MR. FUGATE: FSO003751 through FSO3984.
12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thank you.
13 THE COURT: Mr. --
14 MR. FUGATE: The routing slips or what he's
15 asked for as the routing slips.
16 THE COURT: What do you call them?
17 MR. DANDAR: Routing forms.
18 MR. FUGATE: Routing forms.
19 THE COURT: Mr. Howie?
20 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: What did you learn about this --
22 this little form that I found out about, in looking
23 at schedule B of the income tax return?
24 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, Mr. Minton wishes to
25 raise Fifth Amendment privilege against the court's
11
1 request.
2 THE COURT: Okay. And if he were called to
3 testify, which is what -- there may -- in fact he
4 may still be called back because there's an
5 additional affidavit. But if he is not called back,
6 may I assume that if I call him back and
7 specifically asked him those questions, he would
8 assert his Fifth Amendment privilege?
9 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. That's correct.
10 THE COURT: All right. Then -- then I will not
11 call him back for that purpose. Because frankly, I
12 don't think there's any need for it. I think the
13 record's been made.
14 Thank you.
15 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, as long as I --
16 THE COURT: Yes.
17 MR. HOWIE: Have the court's attention,
18 concerning the notes received from Mr. Jonas, I have
19 been trying to contact Mr. Jonas. I have reason to
20 believe he'll be available in just a few minutes.
21 My concern is that one page appears to be not
22 merely work product but Mr. Jonas's own mental
23 impressions. And I want to make positive that
24 Mr. Jonas intended for me to have it.
25 THE COURT: All right.
12
1 MR. HOWIE: It'll be a few minutes, and I'll be
2 able to respond -- I'll be available to respond to
3 the court concerning discovery of these notes.
4 THE COURT: I appreciate that. Thank you. And
5 if you -- if you'd let me know when you --
6 I guess that's to be turned -- is that
7 something that was request to produce?
8 MR. DANDAR: Right. But if they're going to
9 assert a privilege, I'd like to have the court look
10 at it in camera to ascertain if the privilege
11 applies.
12 MR. HOWIE: Well, it's actually mental
13 impressions, and it would be for Mr. Jonas to raise
14 that.
15 THE COURT: I don't remember -- I'm sorry.
16 I've forgotten. I know -- what was it?
17 MR. HOWIE: The court's original request,
18 according to my notes of May 28th, is that there
19 were seven or eight broad areas of concern that were
20 discussed during the meeting on March 28th --
21 THE COURT: Yeah.
22 MR. HOWIE: -- in New York: Domain names,
23 releases, litigation and further funding. "Steve
24 Jonas has a copy of the list of these concerns; may
25 have his own work product notes."
13
1 THE COURT: Well, then what we -- what I have
2 ordered him basically to produce, or I have asked
3 you to -- to get, would be the seven or eight --
4 whatever those areas were. So frankly, as long as
5 that's produced, whatever else is on there, I don't
6 think that we need.
7 MR. HOWIE: And I question whether this is
8 responsive to that --
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. HOWIE: This particular page.
11 THE COURT: All right.
12 MR. HOWIE: Thank you.
13 MR. DANDAR: And we still have not received
14 Mr. Rosen's notes.
15 THE COURT: Yes. Where's Mr. Rosen's ---
16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I can tell you that I
17 too have a phone call in to Mr. Jonas, because I
18 have spoken to Mr. Rosen in New York, and he has
19 requested, because of the confidentiality agreement
20 letter that was signed off on that came from Jonas
21 and Minton to him, that I get Mr. Jonas to authorize
22 the disclosure of the notes so that there's no
23 breach, as far as Mr. Rosen is concerned, under
24 that -- I suspect that as soon as I'm able to talk
25 to Mr. Jonas, he will say that he has no problem and
14
1 will send a note to that effect, and then I would
2 have -- will get with Mr. Rosen to get the notes.
3 Because there's a similar situation, I believe,
4 with the notes, that -- that there are notes that
5 reflect the listing that the court has asked about,
6 and there are notes that I need to talk to him about
7 to determine whether they're conversations -- notes
8 of conversations with the client, apart from
9 Mr. Minton, et cetera.
10 And so I will be able to do that today or -- if
11 no later than Monday.
12 And the -- the other request is it's a limited
13 waiver as to Mr. Rosen and the notes as to produce
14 the notes pursuant to the court's position of the
15 notes, not --
16 THE COURT: I thought there had been a general
17 waiver by both the church and by Mr. Minton.
18 MR. FUGATE: There -- there was a general
19 waiver that -- that there could be--- because of the
20 allegation that there was blackmail and extortion,
21 that what was discussed at the meeting could be made
22 known to the court. Because that just isn't the
23 fact. There is no blackmail and extortion.
24 But what he's concerned about is the waiver of
25 attorney-client and work product beyond that. And
15
1 what he's asked is that -- to limit it. Which I
2 think is fair. A limited waiver of producing the
3 notes is not a general waiver of attorney-client
4 privilege or work product on all the issues.
5 And it's a pretty simple situation, Judge, as
6 far as I'm concerned.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Well, we'll address it if we
8 have to. But in any event --
9 MR. FUGATE: I have -- I have spoken to him.
10 THE COURT: All right.
11 MR. FUGATE: As I say, I think that's
12 relatively ministerial at this point. And as soon
13 as I talk to Mr. Jonas -- I left a voicemail asking
14 that he just fax, to me and to Mr. Rosen, consent
15 under the agreement.
16 Because despite -- despite some of the
17 allegations to the contrary by counsel, I know
18 Mr. Rosen. And Judge, I have to tell you, he may be
19 aggressive and he may be -- he may also be rude to
20 some other perceptions, but I find him and I know
21 him to be an honest and ethical lawyer. And he's
22 asked me to do those things and to ask the court to
23 permit him to do those things, and I think it's a
24 reasonable request.
25 And he also made one other request, while I'm
16
1 on the subject. And that is he, in preparation for
2 other hearings, is under Judge Baird's case.
3 Mr. Lirot called him as a witness but said he's
4 certainly not subject to the rule of sequestration.
5 I don't know that that's clear in this case.
6 And he asked me to ask your Honor and counsel
7 if it -- to -- is it -- is he permitted to review
8 transcripts of these proceedings to prepare for the
9 other proceedings, whenever they happened, and I
10 said I'd be glad to ask the court.
11 THE COURT: Jeez, I don't know. He's a
12 witness? Mr. Lirot has called him as a witness?
13 MR. FUGATE: Well, they've indicated that they
14 would want to call him as a witness in this
15 proceeding.
16 THE COURT: I see.
17 MR. FUGATE: And I think it would be the same
18 situation as Mr. Dandar --
19 THE COURT: Yeah. Mr. Dandar -- I mean, I
20 don't see why he would be precluded from reading
21 this proceeding.
22 MR. DANDAR: No. But he's also refused to come
23 to this proceeding to testify. We've asked him and
24 you said you had no jurisdiction to compel him. And
25 he still hasn't made himself available for this
17
1 hearing.
2 THE COURT: You know, Counsel, all I can tell
3 you is what I told you the other day. If you want
4 him, subpoena him. If they want him, they can
5 produce him. If they don't produce him --
6 MR. DANDAR: Well, they've already rested, and
7 they're only going to show Dell Liebreich's --
8 MR. WEINBERG: We have not rested.
9 MR. FUGATE: We're allowing you to call
10 Mr. Alexander out of order, I think is where we left
11 off.
12 THE COURT: They haven't rested until they call
13 Ms. Liebreich.
14 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
15 MR. FUGATE: Okay.
16 THE COURT: So they haven't rested.
17 And as I said, surely this man who's going to
18 be up in front of Judge Baird can be served with a
19 subpoena for any -- if you need him -- you don't
20 need to invoke the court to require you to get a
21 witness. It is very easy to get. So if you want
22 him, serve him with a subpoena.
23 MR. DANDAR: I will.
24 Actually, he said in court, in Judge Baird's
25 courtroom -- when I said I needed to subpoena him,
18
1 he said, "You don't have to. I'm an officer of the
2 court." Well, I requested in writing his
3 appearance. He hasn't shown up here yet.
4 But I will subpoena him --
5 THE COURT: Well, I wouldn't blame him. We're
6 in the 18th or 19th day. If you'll just tell him
7 when you want him, then -- then I'm sure he'll come,
8 if he said as, an officer of the court, you didn't
9 have to subpoena him.
10 MR. DANDAR: Let him know I'd like to have him
11 here Monday.
12 MR. FUGATE: Well --
13 That's not a refusal, by the way.
14 And Judge, I'd also ask to resolve the issue --
15 I think -- I think inasmuch as Mr. Rosen is
16 counsel in the companion case, that he's not
17 applicable to the sequestration in reviewing the
18 transcripts any more than Mr. Dandar would be. And
19 I would ask the court's permission to provide him
20 with the transcripts. He has not looked at them
21 because that issue is up in the air. I frankly
22 don't think it's an issue. But before I provide
23 them to him, he asked me to ask your Honor if he
24 could review them in preparation -- not to be a
25 witness, but in preparation for his proceedings.
19
1 THE COURT: Identical proceedings?
2 MR. FUGATE: Yeah.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. DANDAR: There's three of them going on.
5 THE COURT: Well -- well, you know, somebody
6 needs to -- if anybody cares, I suppose somebody
7 could file a motion to stay or do something. I
8 mean, everything keeps going unless somebody does
9 something to -- if you'd like to file a motion to
10 stay here, I would certainly entertain it.
11 MR. FUGATE: I would, Judge --
12 THE COURT: I mean, you know, I would be happy
13 to entertain same.
14 MR. DANDAR: We did -- we did file a motion
15 before Judge Baird and that was denied.
16 THE COURT: Well, file it again. I mean -- I
17 don't know. But I -- you've asked me to set this
18 case for August. And I think that that's pretty,
19 you know, assuming that you get to trial, I think
20 that you're -- you're kidding yourself. But you're
21 sure kidding yourself if you end up in front of a
22 similar hearing to this anyplace else.
23 So I mean, you either need to file your motion
24 to stay and have it denied, whereupon you need to
25 tell me, "Judge, I can't be ready," so we can get
20
1 another date, or you need to just concede that. I
2 mean -- something.
3 But I have no problem with Mr. Rosen reviewing
4 these transcripts.
5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
6 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar, I take it you do
7 not either?
8 MR. DANDAR: No, I do not.
9 THE COURT: Okay.
10 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: And you want Mr. Rosen here Monday?
12 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
13 THE COURT: Let's say -- I mean, whatever
14 you're going to do with Ms. Liebreich would be a
15 Monday-morning presentation?
16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I -- I have no idea what
17 Mr. Rosen's schedule is, Judge, and I don't know --
18 THE COURT: I understand that. He's requested
19 it. All Mr. Rosen said he needed was a request. If
20 he has a bad schedule, then he needs to communicate
21 that with Mr. Dandar. They need to get on the
22 telephone and work it out. Just that simple. If he
23 says, "I don't want to work it out this way," then
24 Mr. Dandar needs to subpoena him. I'm not going to
25 use the court's power to --
21
1 MR. FUGATE: I understand.
2 THE COURT: -- order a lawyer appearing in
3 Florida pro hoc vice to appear when a lawyer wants
4 him.
5 MR. FUGATE: And I apologize. I --
6 THE COURT: If I were you, Mr. Dandar, I'd get
7 on the telephone and call the man, and I'd call him
8 and tell him, "I want you here pursuant to your
9 suggestion."
10 MR. DANDAR: I will do that.
11 THE COURT: If he says, "I've got to be in New
12 York," I think I'd say, "I understand that. Come
13 Tuesday." If he says, "I've got to be someplace
14 else," then say, "Come Wednesday." And if it keeps
15 going like that, I'd say, "I don't think this is
16 working. Where can I subpoena you?"
17 MR. DANDAR: I will make my best effort, and I
18 will call him.
19 THE COURT: All right.
20 MR. FUGATE: Did I give you the Bates numbers?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you did.
22 THE COURT: Okay.
23 MR. FUGATE: That's it, Judge, from me.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I think he's having a tough day.
25 THE COURT: Okay. I understand that since we
22
1 have just Mr. Alexander -- and you said an hour --
2 MR. DANDAR: No. I'm way off.
3 THE COURT: What does that mean?
4 MR. DANDAR: It's going to be several hours.
5 THE COURT: Well, then let's get going. If we
6 finish with Mr. Alexander, we're going to quit for
7 the day, but if we don't, obviously, we'll just work
8 through the day.
9 Mr. Alexander.
10 _______________________________________
11 PETER NICHOLAS ALEXANDER,
12 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined
13 and testified as follows:
14 DIRECT EXAMINATION
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q State your full name and spell your last name.
17 A Peter Nicholas Alexander, A-l-e-x-a-n-d-e-r.
18 Q Now, Mr. Alexander, can you give the court your
19 educational background?
20 A I was a graduate of Long Beach State in
21 California. When I was going to school, I worked in the art
22 department, the production part of CBS Television. After
23 graduation, I went to work for Hughes Aircraft. I was a
24 contract administrator, and then I was a staff engineer in
25 systems engineering.
23
1 I started writing film scripts. And I sold one to
2 MacGillivray Freeman Films, and then I went to work for Walt
3 Disney Productions at a place called Walter Elias Disney
4 Enterprises. WED. And that's where they design all the
5 theme parks. And so they wanted me to combine my technical
6 background with some creativity. And I was posted as the
7 director of project management, which meant I was in charge
8 of the estimating department, the scheduling department, the
9 cost control department and some of the project managers
10 while they built Tokyo Disneyland and the Epcot project.
11 Q The what project?
12 A Epcot.
13 Q Okay. That's the one in Florida?
14 A Yeah.
15 Q All right.
16 A Epcot.
17 And after that, I went to Universal Studios. And
18 I was placed in charge of entertainment there for the
19 Universal Studio tour. And I became the vice-president and
20 executive producer of the Universal Studio tour. And I
21 basically designed most of the attractions for Universal
22 Studios in Hollywood and then Universal Studios, Florida.
23 And then after that, I went into business in 1991
24 on my own.
25 The first thing I did was television shows for
24
1 Nickelodeon. I was producer of two TV shows. And then I
2 started into the theme park attraction business on my own.
3 And I've done that for the last 8 to 10 years, until I wrote
4 a script called The Profit, and I sold it to Bob Minton, and
5 I went and made a movie.
6 Q Now in your education and career, have you come
7 across movie producers or other top executives in the movie
8 industry?
9 A Yes. When I was in college, my roommate in
10 college was Steven Spielberg. And I -- that's where I
11 started actually helping Steve --
12 We made a bicycle race movie.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. This is
14 all very interesting but what does this have to do
15 with our motion for terminating sanctions?
16 THE COURT: I don't know, but I was enjoying
17 listening to it. But now that you've asked, I'll
18 ask Mr. Dandar.
19 What does this have to do with it?
20 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to introduce the court
21 into who Mr. Alexander is, and now we're going to go
22 into the Scientology issues.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 BY MR. DANDAR:
25 Q Mr. Alexander, were you ever a member of the
25
1 Church of Scientology?
2 A Yes, I was, for about 20 years.
3 Q What years were you a member of the Church of
4 Scientology?
5 A I got into Scientology in April of '77, in Santa
6 Barbara, and I got out in January, February of 1998.
7 Q So from '77 to '98.
8 A Yes.
9 Q And were you a staff member or a public member?
10 A I'm what's called a public member.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Or was.
13 Q Is there any difference in the policies that apply
14 to public members versus staff members?
15 A Well --
16 THE COURT: What is a staff member? Is that a
17 Sea Org member?
18 No? Yes?
19 MR. WEINBERG: No.
20 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
21 MR. MOXON: No. Since you asked us. Not
22 necessarily.
23 THE COURT: Maybe I should ask the witness.
24 MR. MOXON: And I object as to relevance. I
25 don't know what the --
26
1 THE COURT: Well, I don't either, but I want to
2 know and -- if you don't mind, I'd like to know.
3 THE WITNESS: The public members are just
4 people out there in society. They come in and pay
5 for their services. The staff members can either
6 be -- like at a smaller organization, like a
7 mission, they can just be full-time staff members.
8 And then at the higher organizations, they would be
9 members of the Sea Org, which would be like
10 Mr. Moxon over there or --
11 MR. MOXON: I object, your Honor.
12 THE WITNESS: -- or Ben Shaw.
13 MR. MOXON: It's not --
14 THE WITNESS: They would be full-time -- in
15 fact they've all signed billion-year contracts. You
16 know, they're there forever.
17 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
18 BY MR. DANDAR:
19 Q Now, is there -- is there policies that apply to
20 the public members that are -- the policies of the Church of
21 Scientology apply differently to public versus staff or Sea
22 Org?
23 A No. The policies apply to everyone. Except for,
24 of course, you know, there are a lot of policies written for
25 just a particular staff function. So --
27
1 Q Okay.
2 A -- that would apply to the staff function.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Competence, your
4 Honor. This is a man who has never been a staff
5 member, has never -- has never been part of the Sea
6 Org. He's just been a public member, he said, for a
7 period of time, and now he's being --
8 Is he being qualified as an expert on
9 Scientology?
10 THE COURT: I don't know.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Asking him about policies?
12 THE COURT: I don't see any objection there.
13 He just asked if the policies were the same.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well, here's what my objection
15 is: This hearing isn't about Scientology. The
16 hearing is about our terminating sanctions. I mean,
17 this isn't a hearing to put Scientology on trial.
18 THE COURT: I understand that. But if he wants
19 to -- if he wants to introduce some policies, I
20 suppose -- you know, I don't know where --
21 MR. WEINBERG: But --
22 THE COURT: -- he'd get --
23 MR. WEINBERG: This man isn't the man. He
24 hasn't been qualified as an expert --
25 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned, at this
28
1 moment he is a fact witness in this hearing, so if
2 you have --
3 MR. WEINBERG: That's why we asked for a
4 proffer yesterday as to what it is he's supposed to
5 be saying, because --
6 THE COURT: Well, we're going to hear.
7 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
8 THE COURT: So if your objection was -- to his
9 telling me what a policy is, that's overruled. If
10 he's incorrect, you know, that's what cross
11 examination is for.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I understand. But if
13 he's -- when we talk about --
14 THE COURT: He is not testifying as an expert,
15 as far as I can see. He is testifying as a fact
16 witness thus far.
17 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And --
18 THE COURT: And if he's incorrect, you're just
19 going to have to challenge him.
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. But the
21 hearing shouldn't be about whether he's correct or
22 incorrect about Church of Scientology policies.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar indicated that part of
24 the basis for his complaint, which you have
25 challenged in this hearing, was based on documents,
29
1 which I presume include policies. Therefore, I find
2 it's relevant and I think at this stage it's
3 admissible, so --
4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
5 THE COURT: -- overruled, if that's an
6 objection.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Mr. Alexander, in your 20-plus years as a public
9 member in the Church of Scientology, how high did you reach
10 on what's called the bridge?
11 A Well, there's two halves of the bridge. On the
12 training side, where you officially and formally study, not
13 very high. But on the counseling-auditing side, I was on
14 OT7, which is the second highest level that's available.
15 Q Okay. Now, in your 20-plus years in Scientology,
16 did you ever come across or study or hear of the
17 introspection rundown?
18 A No.
19 Q In your 20-plus years, did you hear of a division
20 or office of the Church of Scientology called the Office of
21 Special Affairs?
22 A I had no idea. I read it on the org board of
23 Scientology, and I saw the name, and I took a course where I
24 had to know what that was, but I thought it was just legal
25 and public affairs.
30
1 Q Okay. And in your 20-plus years of Scientology,
2 have you estimated how much you've spent on courses?
3 A I contributed a million dollars.
4 Q Why did you leave the Church of Scientology?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection --
6 A Well --
7 MR. WEINBERG: -- as to relevance.
8 THE COURT: Yeah. What is the relevance?
9 MR. DANDAR: This is all just background,
10 foundation work. This is foundation.
11 THE COURT: I don't think I need to know that,
12 necessarily.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't object to the amount of
14 money, but I would have. I don't see the relevance
15 of any of this, unless what he's trying to do is
16 make some -- cast some aspersions on the church.
17 People have donated lots of money to
18 organizations, but any money given to the church --
19 THE COURT: I understand that, but I would be
20 rather proud, if I were a member of the church --
21 MR. WEINBERG: I am, but --
22 THE COURT: -- and if somebody contributed a
23 million dollars to my organization.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. That's why I
25 didn't object.
31
1 But I just sort of sense where we're going with
2 this. And I don't think it has anything to do
3 with --
4 THE COURT: And I -- and I think and I find
5 that too often when we get to this area, the
6 objections come too quickly.
7 MR. WEINBERG: I will be quiet.
8 THE COURT: If there's something that --
9 I think we just need to hear this witness --
10 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
11 MR. DANDAR: Here's my problem, Judge.
12 THE COURT: All right.
13 MR. DANDAR: They, the defendants, have decided
14 to make a motion to disqualify me as counsel,
15 combined with a motion for terminating sanctions,
16 combined with several motions for summary judgment
17 on the wrongful death count, the negligence count.
18 And they just threw it all into this big pile --
19 THE COURT: I agree with you.
20 And frankly, as I was thinking about this last
21 night, I kind of wish I hadn't allowed it to go
22 there. But I did. And consequently, I have to give
23 him a great deal of latitude at this hearing at this
24 point. So if I had rethought it, I would have not
25 allowed the motion to dismiss to be done in any
32
1 evidentiary fashion. We'd have done it strictly by
2 motion for summary judgment and we wouldn't be here.
3 But at their request, I allowed it. And therefore,
4 he's going to be given some latitude here.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
6 THE COURT: Is the basis -- the reason for
7 which he left relevant to any of those issues?
8 MR. DANDAR: It's -- again, it's just a
9 foundation question. It's a foundation question.
10 Because again --
11 THE COURT: It may tend to go to his bias.
12 I'll allow it. I'm not sure why you're asking it,
13 but I'll allow it for that purpose, if nothing else.
14 Go ahead and answer that question.
15 A Okay. What was the question again?
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Why did you leave the public membership of the
18 Church of Scientology?
19 A Well, Patricia Greenway, who worked for me, went
20 on the Internet, and she started finding things about
21 Scientology.
22 And I had been under the impression that the
23 founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, was a nuclear
24 physicist and United States Naval hero. And I found out
25 that the documents on the Internet -- I mean, actual
33
1 transcript -- shows that he flunked out of college; he
2 wasn't a nuclear physicist; he was relieved of command of
3 every ship he ever had, you know. And finally, you know,
4 when I really started looking at the whole history of the
5 Church of Scientology, I found it wasn't the organization
6 that I thought I signed up for.
7 The particular thing that got me was I looked at
8 this document from the Wollersheim case that showed that
9 they were spending a million-five a week, or something
10 like -- some horrendous amount of legal fees. I'm not sure
11 if it was a week or a month, but -- I can't remember.
12 Either way, I looked at that and I -- I thought,
13 "Oh, huh-uh. I don't want to be a part of any group that
14 spends a million-five a week having to cover up all the rest
15 of this stuff. No."
16 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I renew my objection
17 and move to strike that answer. I really -- it just
18 is -- it's the same -- and I'm going to use this
19 word -- garbage that was introduced through all the
20 postings, you know, on cross examination of
21 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. But here he is now
22 testifying as foundation to stuff that he read on
23 the -- read on the Internet.
24 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, but I'm -- I
25 am going to strike that part that says to cover up.
34
1 I don't -- I don't think that that would be
2 appropriate for this.
3 I think, as far as why he left, that might be
4 something I might want to know, so I'll allow the
5 rest of it.
6 Go ahead.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Have you participated in posting your opinions
9 about the Church of Scientology on the Internet?
10 A I might have posted, since I've been out of
11 Scientology, three or four times, but nothing, really, my
12 opinions about it. Just statements of fact about situations
13 I was involved in.
14 Q Did you -- when you started your company, Totally
15 Fun Company in 1991, where was it located?
16 A Clearwater, downtown.
17 Q Why was it in Clearwater?
18 A Because I was a Scientologist, big-time
19 Scientologist.
20 Q Okay. And what's the -- what's the reason of --
21 of being a -- a big-time Scientologist compared to being in
22 Clearwater? I mean, why?
23 A Oh, because Flag is --
24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, there's just too much noise
25 over there.
35
1 THE COURT: There really is. It's bothering
2 me.
3 If you can ask -- they can step outside and
4 talk as loud as they want.
5 MR. WEINBERG: I just told them. I'm sorry.
6 THE COURT: Thank you.
7 A The reason they come here for -- for Clearwater,
8 for a Scientologist, is Flag is what's called the Mecca of
9 Technical Perfection. It's the place where Scientology is
10 applied a hundred percent standard tech all the time. And
11 it's also the place that you get the upper levels of
12 Scientology. And they're not really offered too many other
13 places.
14 MR. DANDAR: All right. I apparently forgot to
15 have these marked, so let me go ahead and mark them.
16 MR. LIROT: Would you start those at 88? I've
17 already marked these other exhibits.
18 MR. DANDAR: I think the clerk will know that.
19 MR. LIROT: I understand --
20 You didn't know that?
21 THE COURT: That's fine. You can have them
22 marked anything you want.
23 Madam Clerk, mark that as 88.
24 Can the lawyers for the church tell me how many
25 books I have on this terminating sanctions? Do you
36
1 have any idea what you -- I mean, I'm talking
2 about --
3 MR. WEINBERG: I do have some idea, yeah.
4 THE COURT: I don't know where these --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Can I just approach?
6 THE COURT: Yeah.
7 This is a defendant's memorandum.
8 I'm off the record for a minute.
9 (A discussion was held off the record.)
10 THE COURT: Now we're back on the record.
11 Apparently we have a motion -- defendant's
12 omnibus motion for terminating sanctions and other
13 relief. Then there was a memorandum of fact and
14 law.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Plus, which had all those
16 exhibits.
17 THE COURT: Yes.
18 And then I've received from time to time little
19 memorandums on certain issues, like bench
20 memorandums.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Bench memos.
22 THE COURT: Somewhere along the line, we
23 agreed -- I shouldn't say we agreed -- the church
24 filed something that indicated they were increasing
25 their motion for terminating sanctions beyond "false
37
1 allegations" to "no basis in fact."
2 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
3 THE COURT: And so I thought, well, okay,
4 because that would seem to me to be some bad faith
5 or something like that. And then I got to thinking
6 about that, and I said, "Well, that's what a summary
7 judgment motion is." So I said to you all, "I don't
8 know; you better file your motion for summary
9 judgment before this thing is over." Because that's
10 what I would think of more typically as the standard
11 way to say there's no basis in fact.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
13 THE COURT: So you have done that. And I have
14 that. And I think that may be at home.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. We did that.
16 THE COURT: But there's a notebook on that.
17 But where is it -- I thought beyond this at
18 some point in time, either it was said orally or
19 some document was filed that said, "We are going to
20 challenge the no basis in fact --"
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we do it --
22 THE COURT: -- for the -- for the complaint in
23 essence.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. We do it in here.
25 THE COURT: Is it in here?
38
1 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. It's the -- what we
2 call -- I think the way it was referred is sham
3 pleading. But it talked about that there was no
4 basis for the allegation of murder. It's in this --
5 I mean, that is one of the points that is addressed
6 in the -- in the termination sanctions motion.
7 THE COURT: Well, why are we doing this by
8 evidentiary hearing as opposed to summary judgment?
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
10 THE COURT: I mean, normally -- there's no
11 basis in fact; you file a motion for summary
12 judgment, as you have, and they say there's no basis
13 for --
14 MR. WEINBERG: But you can do it either way. I
15 mean, they could either -- he has an obligation to
16 come forward with evidence --
17 THE COURT: Which he could do by affidavit.
18 MR. WEINBERG: He could, but he hasn't.
19 THE COURT: Well, of course, it may be because
20 he's here. I --
21 MR. WEINBERG: Well, we were about --
22 THE COURT: But --
23 MR. WEINBERG: Except --
24 THE COURT: Besides -- besides that, I told
25 him --
39
1 MR. WEINBERG: Except we were about to go to
2 trial in June. I mean the discovery in this case
3 was certainly -- as to that part of that case,
4 should have been over.
5 THE COURT: I understand that. But what I
6 guess I'm saying is he's been here every day from
7 like 9 to 5 --
8 MR. WEINBERG: That's a -- 6 --
9 THE COURT: -- and your book was, you know,
10 three or four inches, I would imagine. And he would
11 have to -- he said he's going to rely on doctors'
12 testimony and what have you, so I presume he's got
13 to take some time to put this together.
14 MR. WEINBERG: But we've taken all those -- I
15 mean, it's not like we haven't -- I mean, you've
16 read them.
17 THE COURT: I understand.
18 What I'm saying is, he maybe hasn't had time to
19 put his materials together, just put the book
20 together to give to me. If he puts the book
21 together and gives it to me and I look through that
22 and determine, after a hearing, a legal hearing,
23 that there is some basis of fact that he has to
24 proceed, then your motion is denied.
25 MR. WEINBERG: Except that --
40
1 THE COURT: What I'm wondering is why it is
2 that we are going through having witnesses come in
3 here like they would at trial, if --
4 MR. DANDAR: I have no idea.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I have a big --
6 THE COURT: I'm sure --
7 MR. WEINBERG: I have a very good idea.
8 THE COURT: Okay.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Because what we have said -- and
10 you have said this -- but we have said -- we were --
11 David Miscavige and the church was accused of murder
12 in -- in September of 1999, which is, you know,
13 coming on three years ago. We've had discovery for
14 three years concerning the so-called murder
15 allegations. And part of the terminating sanction
16 motions is -- is that it is -- and I will use this
17 word. I don't use it all that much -- outrageous --
18 that we are -- we are here today.
19 Mr. Dandar was on the stand for three days, and
20 we asked him the question, "What is the evidence?
21 After all this time, what is the evidence for the
22 allegation that David Miscavige ordered this; that
23 anybody ordered this; that there was an order to --
24 to allow her to die, an order to murder her?"
25 And there is none. There is none. And that's
41
1 why we're here.
2 And if he's got some evidence --
3 He couldn't tell us on the stand. You asked
4 him, I asked him. And if there is some, let him put
5 that person on. And if there is no evidence, it
6 should be dismissed, both for misconduct in the
7 terminating motions and as a summary judgment,
8 because there's no basis in fact.
9 And that's why we're here. I mean --
10 THE COURT: Well, we don't -- a lot of times
11 when we grant a summary judgment, we don't need to
12 worry about terminating sanctions, because that does
13 away with -- I mean, that's what a motion for
14 summary judgment is. Does away with the count.
15 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
16 THE COURT: And this would be a -- a count.
17 This is count I of the complaint.
18 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
19 THE COURT: There is -- I mean, yes, he has got
20 to produce, in response to a motion for summary
21 judgment, affidavits, testimony, which can be sworn
22 depositions that he can file and what have you, to
23 show me that there is an issue of fact for the jury
24 to decide. If he can't do that, then the motion for
25 summary judgment is granted. That's how we do it
42
1 every day in court.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
3 THE COURT: What I'm a little confused about
4 and I got to thinking about this last night, I
5 thought this man was being put on, quite frankly, to
6 tell us about The Profit and whether that had any
7 basis.
8 MR. DANDAR: That's partly right.
9 THE COURT: Okay. Whether that was -- you
10 know, that came up. And I kind of said I thought it
11 was irrelevant, and somehow we got into it anyway.
12 But I -- I guess I'm wondering, in a way -- I
13 don't want to have a mini nonjury trial here.
14 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's how I took it, and
15 I -- that's why I objected to all this, but I
16 couldn't imagine --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
18 MR. DANDAR: The only way you can get an
19 involuntary dismissal of an entire lawsuit is if the
20 plaintiff committed fraud on --
21 THE COURT: Well --
22 MR. DANDAR: -- a material aspect --
23 THE COURT: -- that's an argument that we're
24 going to -- that's -- that's what the motion for
25 terminating sanctions are, that we've got lawyer
43
1 misconduct to remove the lawyer; that there is fraud
2 or there is whatever. Whatever's in the book.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Part of which is this pleading
4 that has been -- that has encompassed this case that
5 has been used for all of these purposes against the
6 Church of Scientology. Which he knew, and the --
7 and the -- and the plaintiff knew had no basis in
8 fact, which is the murder allegation. That's part
9 of it. That's a major part of what we're here for.
10 THE COURT: I understand that. And I do
11 understand that.
12 But I'm still wondering why it is that I'm
13 hearing testimony about this. I mean, you're right.
14 The discovery's been taken. If this is somebody
15 new, that there's been no discovery, then I
16 suppose --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Still should have been
18 dismissed. I mean, if there's something new, it
19 should have been disclosed a long time ago, not now.
20 But you said to Mr. Dandar, "If you got it, you
21 better -- you better bring it on before the end of
22 this hearing."
23 MR. DANDAR: Yeah.
24 MR. WEINBERG: Because so far, I haven't heard
25 it.
44
1 THE COURT: But he could do this by affidavit.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
3 THE COURT: I mean --
4 MR. WEINBERG: But then --
5 THE COURT: That's what we normally do.
6 MR. WEINBERG: But then we -- but then we would
7 say, Your Honor --
8 THE COURT: Can't respond --
9 MR. WEINBERG: -- hold on --
10
11 THE COURT: -- until they take their
12 deposition.
13 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah.
14 THE COURT: And you know what I would say? Go
15 have it. And that would put off his --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Trial.
17 THE COURT: -- day in court.
18 But I don't normally -- no judge has to sit
19 here and listen to this kind of stuff on a motion
20 for summary judgment. In other words, what happens
21 is they file an affidavit, you say, "Wait a minute.
22 This is not fair. I can't -- you know, I've got to
23 go take this man's deposition on all of this stuff
24 before I can respond."
25 MR. WEINBERG: I can't cross examine an
45
1 affidavit.
2 THE COURT: Yeah. Can't cross examine an
3 affidavit.
4 And so I either say you're right, or you're
5 not. You know, in other words, you go off and do
6 your discovery and then you file a counteraffidavit.
7 And then I rule. I don't -- I don't sit here for
8 days on end and listen to whether or not they've got
9 a prima facie case enough to get past a summary
10 judgment. And it sounds to me like that's where
11 we're going with him.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- that -- that's why we
13 asked --
14 THE COURT: We can all do this --
15 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry.
16 THE COURT: It's all right.
17 But there's no need for you to gather too
18 close.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not sick yet.
20 THE COURT: I know, but you might have caught
21 whatever it is everybody's got over there.
22 MR. WEINBERG: He just backed me against this
23 table.
24 THE COURT: I mean, has this man been listed as
25 a witness?
46
1 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
2 THE COURT: Have you taken his deposition?
3 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. And he said he knew
4 nothing about the introspection rundown and --
5 I didn't take it. Mr. Moxon did.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. WEINBERG: He said he didn't know anything.
8 That's what's so bizarre about why he's here
9 testifying --
10 MR. DANDAR: Well, shall I --
11 MR. WEINBERG: -- about -- what this has to
12 do --
13 And that's why we asked for a proffer
14 yesterday.
15 THE COURT: Well, we can't have proffers of
16 every witness. I mean --
17 MR. WEINBERG: I thought it would be a
18 30-second thing or a minute thing, saying, "This is
19 what we intend to elicit from this witness."
20 THE COURT: I don't normally require lawyers to
21 produce -- make proffers.
22 MR. WEINBERG: I know. But it was for the same
23 reason that you were using about what is -- you
24 know, what are we really doing?
25 MR. DANDAR: Could --
47
1 MR. WEINBERG: I know what we're really doing.
2 And I think, from our perspective --
3 THE COURT: I think what we're doing is I'm
4 sitting here doing a lot of work that you folks need
5 to be doing outside of court and then bring them to
6 me to make a legal ruling on. Not on the
7 terminating sanctions, not on the fraud and not on
8 the lawyer misconduct and not on the perjury,
9 suborning perjury. That's all fine.
10 MR. WEINBERG: And the sham pleading.
11 THE COURT: Sham pleading.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Which is -- I mean, you -- what
13 you said is -- is, "I understand your allegation,"
14 which is, hey, you know, this is wilful misconduct.
15 If you file something this -- this outrageous
16 without having any evidence or basis in fact, and
17 that would reflect on lawyer misconduct as well --
18 THE COURT: Right.
19 MR. WEINBERG: -- because the lawyer did it.
20 But it also sounds very much if -- I remember
21 you saying, like if there's no basis, then that
22 sounds like a summary judgment too.
23 So what you've -- what I think you were
24 thinking is, at the end of this hearing, I may
25 dismiss this case if Mr. Weinberg convinces me,
48
1 based on the lawyer misconduct, you know, filing a
2 pleading and other things without a basis, or I
3 might just, if there is no factual basis, you know,
4 treat this as if it were a motion for summary
5 judgment. I think that's what you were thinking.
6 And I don't think that you're wasting your
7 time, because I think all of --
8 THE COURT: But see, I -- whatever he's going
9 to put on now --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he --
11 THE COURT: -- and we're going to have in
12 essence, if you're going to cross examine him and
13 explore -- because if you don't have this in
14 discovery, you're going to want to cross examine and
15 explore -- well, I don't need to sit here while you
16 all take discovery and -- I really don't. And so I
17 don't know what he knows.
18 Maybe we'll just proceed along a little bit and
19 I'll get it in my mind --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I --
21 THE COURT: -- a little.
22 MR. WEINBERG: But -- but -- just one more
23 thing and I'll sit down.
24 THE COURT: And I think if I don't get it in my
25 mind better come Monday, we're going to have a new
49
1 set of rules. Because I am not going to sit here
2 and go through a summary judgment motion, you
3 know -- so -- so if -- I mean, I just can't sit here
4 and listen to people testify. If they can put it in
5 affidavit form, you can go take their deposition.
6 MR. WEINBERG: And that's the thing on this.
7 THE COURT: You can file counteraffidavits and
8 then we can --
9 MR. WEINBERG: I suppose I could understand
10 calling Jesse Prince, although, you know, we did
11 depose him and all that stuff, and you had his
12 depositions, and I think we've pretty much
13 established he didn't have any material knowledge of
14 this stuff.
15 THE COURT: I don't know if we did or not.
16 MR. WEINBERG: But anyway, I can understand
17 Jesse Prince as it goes to --
18 THE COURT: Yes. Why do I need to listen to
19 Jesse Prince, for example, for six or seven days?
20 MR. WEINBERG: I agree with you on that.
21 MR. DANDAR: The problem, Judge --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Hold on. Let me finish my -- my
23 thought.
24 But Mr. Alexander -- we did take
25 Mr. Alexander's deposition. And my recollection is
50
1 he had no knowledge about anything that would have
2 to do with the murder allegation. So I -- reason I
3 was objecting is, what -- why are we hearing
4 questions about Scientology policies?
5 If -- if he's here to testify about The Profit,
6 I understand that. He can testify about The Profit.
7 THE COURT: That is certainly relevant to this
8 hearing.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Or his --
10 MR. DANDAR: Bob Minton.
11 MR. WEINBERG: -- relationship with Bob Minton.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I understand that. But I was
14 objecting about testifying about Scientology
15 policies.
16 THE COURT: But then he said -- he said, "Well,
17 you've put me on notice." And I did. That we're
18 going to talk about the fact there was no basis for
19 this pleading. And now he's going to ask him some
20 questions.
21 MR. WEINBERG: But he just said he never heard
22 of the introspection rundown so I don't know --
23 THE COURT: I don't know what he's going to
24 say. We're going to listen here for a few minutes.
25 But I'm telling you all, sometime over the
51
1 weekend I'm going to take this back home and read
2 it. And I expect we're going to have some new rules
3 come Monday.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Fine.
5 THE COURT: Because I am not going to sit here
6 and listen to a summary judgment motion by live
7 witnesses when I can do it very nicely the way I do
8 it in every other case, which is by affidavits,
9 counteraffidavits and an argument, and make a
10 ruling.
11 MR. DANDAR: I'm handing to the court
12 Plaintiff's Exhibit 88 and 89, court's copy. And
13 clerk copy is with the witness.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Mr. Alexander --
16 MR. WEINBERG: Could I say one more thing in
17 that regard, your Honor?
18 THE COURT: Yes.
19 MR. WEINBERG: I -- the purpose of the
20 evidentiary hearing, I believe, went to the
21 disqualification of the attorney issue --
22 THE COURT: Right.
23 MR. WEINBERG: -- which -- which you absolutely
24 needed, I think, under the law, to do an evidentiary
25 hearing on.
52
1 THE COURT: Well --
2 MR. WEINBERG: I think you had to do an
3 evidentiary hearing --
4 THE COURT: I've done a lot of this evidentiary
5 hearing. I've told you it's important. We're going
6 to do more.
7 MR. WEINBERG: We're --
8 THE COURT: I'm not talking about that. I'm
9 talking about hearing the facts of the case.
10 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I'm saying.
11 As to any of the other issues, I don't think
12 you had to do. It wasn't required to do an
13 evidentiary hearing on the other issues. You could
14 have decided on -- on -- on the papers.
15 But I think -- I think the disqual motion, you
16 actually had to do an evidentiary hearing on, if I
17 remember what the law is.
18 THE COURT: Well, that's -- what do you think
19 I've been sitting here for?
20 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
21 THE COURT: You don't understand me half the
22 time. You just want what you want and you don't
23 even listen to what I'm saying.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm trying to listen.
25 THE COURT: Well, as I've said -- I've said
53
1 what I'm going to say. I'm going to listen a little
2 bit here.
3 Come Monday I suspect we're going to have new
4 rules. There we go.
5 MR. DANDAR: Well, I have witnesses flying in
6 out of state, so --
7 THE COURT: I'm going to do the best I can.
8 But I'm wondering why I'm listening to this. So
9 maybe after I start hearing from him, I'll
10 understand it better.
11 MR. DANDAR: All right. Here we go.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Mr. Alexander, I just handed you Plaintiff's
14 Exhibit 88. Can you identify that?
15 A Yes. This is a cover of a Scientology publication
16 called Celebrity Magazine, which is published by the
17 Celebrity Center in Hollywood. And it shows me on the
18 cover.
19 Q You're on the cover.
20 And what -- this was published when? Do you
21 recall?
22 A That would have been 1989. And we were designing
23 Universal Studios in Florida. And this is me sitting on one
24 of the models we built for Universal Studios in Florida.
25 THE COURT: What year is this? 1988?
54
1 THE WITNESS: '89.
2 THE COURT: '89.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q And does every public member of the Church of
6 Scientology get on the cover of Celebrity Magazine?
7 A No. This is, I guess, an honor to be put on the
8 cover. I mean, John Travolta or somebody like that would be
9 on the cover. Not that I'm John Travolta. But I guess they
10 thought I was a celebrity.
11 Q Okay. And what about Exhibit 89? What is that?
12 A That's an article by a trade publication,
13 Amusement Today, about myself and my company.
14 Q It talks about your background?
15 A Yes, it does.
16 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'd like to move both of
17 these into evidence.
18 MR. WEINBERG: The cover, I have no objection
19 to. The other one, I haven't read. And I have
20 trouble reading it. I don't know what's in here.
21 THE COURT: Well, I'll tell you what, we'll
22 just let it in for -- and you can -- you can ask it
23 to be removed if you want to.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, if he says something
25 negative about Scientology in here --
55
1 THE COURT: I'll let you --
2 MR. WEINBERG: -- I'd object to it.
3 THE COURT: I'll let you -- I can't read it
4 either, to tell you the truth, so it probably
5 doesn't matter what it says, because it's very
6 difficult to read.
7 In any event, they'll both be in, and you can
8 tell me why one should be taken out, if you want to,
9 later.
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Mr. Alexander, in your 20-year-plus history with
12 the Church of Scientology, have you ever heard of something
13 called a success story?
14 A Yes.
15 Q What is that?
16 A Every time you complete a course or counseling
17 level, you have to fill out a success story describing how
18 it benefited you.
19 Q And what if it didn't benefit you?
20 A Well, you -- you always try and -- and put the
21 best light you can on it. Because if you don't want to go
22 back and retread the level and do it again, then -- you
23 know, you try and put down whatever it is you gained from
24 it. It may not be much, but you'll put that down.
25 Q And if you don't write a good success story, what;
56
1 you have to do it over again?
2 A Yeah. If you fail the level, then you have to
3 retread, yes.
4 Q And you have to pay for that again?
5 A You might, if -- you might also, if it's a
6 counseling thing, be put in what's called review, where you
7 have to get additional hours, and pay for that.
8 Q And in your experience with the Church of
9 Scientology, who is the head of Scientology?
10 A David Miscavige.
11 Q And in what capacity does he exercise that
12 leadership role?
13 A When he --
14 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. Foundation.
15 THE COURT: Overruled.
16 A Okay. When he spoke, he was introduced as the
17 chairman of the board. And whenever he would appear on,
18 like, the magazine covers, he was captain of the Sea Org.
19 You know, he'd be in front of all the Sea Org people.
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q What is the Sea Org?
22 A It's the professional forever staff of
23 Scientology. It's like a -- well, semi-military
24 organization that the people who have signed that
25 billion-year contract to be Scientologists basically
57
1 forever, or for a million years, belong to.
2 Q And who -- is there a head of the Sea Org?
3 A Yes.
4 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Foundation. Your
5 Honor, I don't think he said -- I think he was never
6 in the Sea Org.
7 THE COURT: Well, I don't know -- I mean, if I
8 were in a church, would seem like I'd have some
9 knowledge of the working of the church, if I'd been
10 a member for 20 years. I don't know that I'd have
11 to be --
12 MR. WEINBERG: It's sort of like asking a
13 Catholic parishioner, you know, what happens in the
14 hierarchical structure of the Catholic Church over
15 in the Vatican.
16 MR. DANDAR: Well --
17 MR. WEINBERG: They may or may not -- you know,
18 someone may or may not know. But -- but that's
19 what -- you know, that's what foundation is all
20 about.
21 And again, what's that have to do with this
22 hearing?
23 THE COURT: Well, it has a lot to do with this
24 hearing, because your challenge is that David
25 Miscavige, as chair of the Sea Org, had -- had no
58
1 basis of -- didn't -- I'm sorry -- had no part in
2 ordering the death of Lisa McPherson or anything of
3 the sort. So I mean, I suppose that's where he's
4 going. And that's the only reason I can assume that
5 he's going there, so --
6 MR. DANDAR: You're correct.
7 THE COURT: Well, then, that would have some
8 relevance, so --
9 MR. DANDAR: You know -- and even a
10 non-Catholic would know that the head of the
11 Catholic church --
12 THE COURT: Is the Pope. Well, I know that.
13 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't object to that
14 question. I objected when he started asking about
15 the Sea Org and how the Sea Org works.
16 MR. DANDAR: I want the court to note how many
17 times we get interrupted with these objections --
18 THE COURT: Yeah.
19 MR. DANDAR: -- when we talk about --
20 THE COURT: I think --
21 MR. DANDAR: -- Scientology.
22 THE COURT: I think you ought to save a lot of
23 this for cross examination. I'm going to let it in.
24 This is not a hearing before a jury, this is a
25 hearing before me. And I can strike things. And we
59
1 just don't have to --
2 You know, it does seem to me, and I -- I will
3 tell you all, that you need to understand this, if
4 you ever get in front of a jury, it really does seem
5 as if there's just a huge amount of objection.
6 For anybody that's been a member of this church
7 to say anything like unto they know anything. It's
8 like -- it's like as if they left, they never were
9 there and they couldn't possibly know anything.
10 I think that's the -- you hear -- I mean, if --
11 this is never reflected in the record, but if you
12 could see you all like a jury would see you all, you
13 could see Mr. Shaw and how he does, and Mr. Moxon in
14 particular, how offended he gets -- I mean, just
15 like when he asks the question, "Who's the head of
16 Scientology," I heard this huge gasp, like. And to
17 this man -- I mean, you know, you're right. It
18 wasn't an objection, but it was very obvious you
19 were offended or something that this man was asked.
20 I mean, I could tell you who the head of the
21 Catholic church is and I've never been a Catholic.
22 MR. WEINBERG: That wasn't --
23 THE COURT: I'm telling you, I heard it --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I --
25 THE COURT: -- and I looked out there. It was
60
1 like they're so offended that this man is pretending
2 to have any knowledge.
3 Well, he was a member, he says, of your
4 church -- not yours -- you understand, your
5 client --
6 MR. WEINBERG: 20 years.
7 THE COURT: -- for 20 years.
8 MR. WEINBERG: And --
9 THE COURT: He ought to know something.
10 MR. WEINBERG: He should. And that's not my
11 objection.
12 I will try to, and I will -- I'll just -- if
13 there's something that I think is really --
14 THE COURT: Well, I'm going to take a little
15 break, and I want you to talk to your clients --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I will.
17 THE COURT: -- that are here. And that
18 includes co-counsel who is here. And I want you to
19 understand, this is me here. You know, if this man
20 missteps and if he misstates things, I'm going to
21 let you clear it up on cross examination.
22 I mean, to some extent, some of this is
23 relevant, is important for me to know. As I said,
24 this fellow says he was a member for 20 years. I --
25 I was a member of a church for some time and I know
61
1 a lot about it. I wouldn't want to testify as an
2 expert, but I could sure, after however many years
3 I've been gone -- over 40 years -- tell you some
4 stuff about that church I belonged to.
5 MR. WEINBERG: And --
6 THE COURT: I don't hear this man being hostile
7 or anything of the sort.
8 We just have got to move through this.
9 As I said, if he's lying or if he doesn't have
10 any basis, bring it out on cross examination.
11 MR. WEINBERG: We will
12 THE COURT: So chat with these folks and tell
13 them --
14 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
15 THE COURT: -- calm down, here.
16 MR. WEINBERG: I --
17 THE COURT: And Mr. Fugate, what is it?
18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to -- in fairness
19 to Mr. Howie -- I'm going to ask to excuse myself
20 today. And I asked Mr. Howie if we could address
21 the court on his notes and on Mr. Rosen's notes on
22 Monday morning. And we wanted to stay around and
23 make sure that was okay with the court.
24 THE COURT: Well, thank you, Mr. Howie. Is
25 that because I was the last one to get your pleading
62
1 yesterday, that you're feeling bad?
2 MR. HOWIE: That's part of the reason, your
3 Honor. I assure the court you'll be the first to
4 get them, from --
5 THE COURT: All right.
6 MR. FUGATE: Is that all right with the court?
7 THE COURT: That's fair enough.
8 MR. DANDAR: Let Mr. Howie know it was the
9 plaintiff's counsel who offered to give the court a
10 copy of the affidavit so Mr. Howie wouldn't have to
11 come here.
12 THE COURT: I didn't need him to come, but -- I
13 was really kind of joking.
14 As far as I'm concerned, you can be excused.
15 If you get this, though, before Monday, and if
16 everybody agrees and everybody talks to whomever
17 they need to talk to and you get it, would somebody
18 please fax it to Mr. Dandar so he has it, so there's
19 no delay?
20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, here's the situation.
21 They're -- I will have, probably, before Monday, the
22 conversation with Mr. Jonas and with Mr. Rosen.
23 And I just wanted to address two issues about
24 the notes to the court. I just am not going to make
25 it today. And I just asked him if he could turn
63
1 them in and talk -- and make those -- address the
2 court on those issues on Monday. That's all I'm
3 requesting.
4 THE COURT: That's fine.
5 MR. FUGATE: And also, here's the transcript
6 from yesterday morning.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 MR. FUGATE: I have put yesterday afternoon in
9 there, but I'll have somebody else give it to you.
10 THE COURT: See you. Hope you feel better.
11 MR. FUGATE: Thank you.
12 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, so the record is clear,
13 I have communicated with Mr. Jonas and resolved our
14 position on the last page. However, Mr. Fugate's
15 raising a new issue concerning turning over all
16 notes of the meeting that I think pertain to these
17 notes, and I think it's best that we turn them all
18 over --
19 THE COURT: You mean to tell me you're ready to
20 turn them over and Mr. Fugate has some objection?
21 MR. HOWIE: No. There's -- there's another
22 issue that Mr. Fugate is -- is raising here,
23 concerning turning over --
24 THE COURT: What is it?
25 MR. HOWIE: -- all the notes.
64
1 THE COURT: What's the issue?
2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the issue --
3 Here's what I would like to do. I want to get
4 Mr. Rosen's notes. And I want to have those notes,
5 provide the notes to you. There's -- there's --
6 THE COURT: I don't understand this. This is
7 Mr. Minton's counsel. Mr. Minton's counsel has been
8 contacted by the current counsel and they have no
9 objection. Why in the world would the church have
10 any authority to step in and make any statement?
11 MR. FUGATE: I don't have any authority --
12 THE COURT: Well, then good. Then you don't
13 need to be here and we can deal with this today.
14 MR. HOWIE: Well, your Honor, it's just that I
15 have to revise my notice of filing and so on. And I
16 understand there are issues concerning the
17 confidentiality agreement that Mr. Fugate wishes to
18 address on Monday, which may affect --
19 THE COURT: Oh.
20 MR. HOWIE: -- the issue of the notes.
21 MR. FUGATE: That's all, Judge. There's no
22 hide and seek. I don't have any authority over
23 that. It's an issue that I want to raise with the
24 court that's been raised with me through counsel.
25 THE COURT: Who? Which counsel?
65
1 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Rosen.
2 THE COURT: Oh.
3 MR. FUGATE: And that's all, Judge. And I --
4 you know --
5 THE COURT: On these notes? On Mr. Minton's
6 counsel's notes?
7 MR. FUGATE: On our -- when I say our,
8 Mr. Rosen's notes.
9 And I think it reflects on what I understand
10 are in these notes. All I just want to do is just
11 bring it to the court's attention and let you look
12 at those sets and that's it.
13 THE COURT: Okay.
14 MR. HOWIE: That's correct, your Honor.
15 Because much of what Mr. Jonas's notes have include
16 comments by Mr. Rosen.
17 THE COURT: I -- oh, I see. All right.
18 MR. FUGATE: No -- no hide and seek. Nothing
19 nefarious. I just want to raise an issue with your
20 Honor and let you look at them and then you decide
21 whatever you want to do.
22 THE COURT: We'll take that up Monday. And you
23 may be excused.
24 MR. HOWIE: We'll be here 9:00 Monday.
25 THE COURT: All right. We are in court on
66
1 Monday, aren't we?
2 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Alexander, we're going to take
4 a little break here. I know you just got started.
5 I want them to have an opportunity to discuss
6 with Mr. Moxon and Mr. Shaw what I just told you,
7 Counsel.
8 And it -- it doesn't serve them well, honestly.
9 And I'm going to ask you, while you're on the
10 witness stand until we finish your testimony,
11 technically, you're not supposed to have any
12 communication with even lawyers about what -- what's
13 going on here.
14 THE WITNESS: Okay.
15 THE COURT: Doesn't mean you can't talk about
16 other things, but you can't really talk about
17 anything involving your testimony, even by the
18 lawyer who put you on the stand, as long as you're
19 testifying.
20 THE WITNESS: Okay. I understand.
21 THE COURT: Once you're not testifying, you are
22 free to speak with your lawyer or the lawyer -- he
23 can talk to you about matters. But not while you're
24 on the witness stand.
25 THE WITNESS: All right. Thanks.
67
1 THE COURT: We'll be in recess for 15 minutes.
2 (A recess was taken at 10:17 a.m.)
3 THE COURT: Okay. You said you had some
4 thoughts.
5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I was reflecting on what
6 you were saying, and -- and it -- it -- I mean,
7 you're right. The evidentiary hearing in this case
8 should be limited to the terminating sanctions and
9 disqualification, the misconduct.
10 As far as the summary judgment is concerned, it
11 should be done like every other summary judgment.
12 Which is, we filed our motion, plaintiff responds
13 with affidavits or testimony.
14 We're in a unique position now because
15 basically all of the evidence-gathering, the
16 discovery, is over with, so it's either there or
17 it's not.
18 And so it seems to me that -- that what we
19 should do is finish the terminating sanctions part
20 of this evidentiary hearing, which is really all the
21 evidentiary hearing is about -- that is, the part of
22 the hearing that has to do with Mr. Dandar's alleged
23 misconduct; the -- you know, the false pleadings,
24 the -- the false testimony, the sham pleading part,
25 we've already covered with Mr. Dandar; whether or
68
1 not, at the time that he filed this pleading, he had
2 a good faith basis -- we don't think he did, but
3 whether he had a good faith basis or not to make
4 those allegations.
5 We finish that part of the hearing. Then we'll
6 move on, and I'll file the motion to stay the
7 hearing at that point to give him an opportunity,
8 like any lawyer has, to respond to the summary
9 judgment motion. And he can respond to the summary
10 judgment motion, if he has the evidence -- if he --
11 if he brings new affidavits which -- which need to
12 be pursued with discovery depositions, and we can do
13 those depositions outside your presence.
14 But this is unique. There shouldn't be any. I
15 mean, whatever is the evidence should be there,
16 because technically all the evidence is supposed to
17 have been produced at this point because we're
18 technically at a point where we were supposed to be
19 on trial. And -- and so that -- and -- and
20 whenever, you know, whatever --
21 And then at the end of that process, we'll --
22 we'll -- you can -- you know, you can decide either
23 or both of the summary judgment and the terminating
24 sanctions. I mean, I think that's what we had in
25 mind when we filed the motion in the first place.
69
1 THE COURT: Well, as I said, I was thinking
2 about it last night, and I got to thinking -- and I
3 started really thinking about how many days would
4 Mr. Prince take, is really what I started thinking.
5 MR. WEINBERG: That's what I got -- the
6 worst --
7 THE COURT: And I thought, "Oh, boy, I'm going
8 to limit these people to two days apiece," because I
9 could see this thing going on for two weeks. And
10 I'm thinking, "Why am I having to hear it?"
11 Now, as far as Mr. Prince's testimony, as to
12 whatever he has to say about what Mr. Minton said,
13 that's all terminating sanctions.
14 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
15 THE COURT: As far as what he might have to say
16 about -- I don't know whatever's related to the
17 motion -- but as far as what -- he's filed an
18 affidavit.
19 MR. WEINBERG: He did. And we deposed him.
20 THE COURT: And you deposed him.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Yes.
22 THE COURT: And I presume -- and I've read your
23 summary judgment. And I don't know that I've spent
24 a great deal of time with it, but I assume part of
25 those attachments would be maybe some of his -- I
70
1 mean, filed -- I don't know what is in there.
2 MR. WEINBERG: We would make the depositions
3 available, but you remember that percipient
4 knowledge thing --
5 THE COURT: Right.
6 MR. WEINBERG: The percipient knowledge came
7 essentially from the deposition where he said,
8 basically, he had no percipient knowledge or actual
9 knowledge or whatever knowledge we're talking
10 about --
11 THE COURT: Percipient.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- about these allegations, you
13 know, paragraph 30, for, you know, what David
14 Miscavige did, what anybody did, as it related to
15 Lisa McPherson. So that all came out of his
16 deposition. We took the deposition after he filed
17 the affidavit.
18 So you know, I don't think the affidavit is --
19 is a basis for the allegation.
20 THE COURT: I --
21 MR. WEINBERG: And we certainly underscored
22 that in his deposition. I don't -- I don't care to
23 hear from him again on any of that stuff.
24 But you know, there may be things that he has
25 to say -- I'm sure there are -- as it relates to
71
1 Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar and the terminating
2 sanctions part.
3 THE COURT: Right. Well, I agree.
4 And I think what happened, and I think what got
5 us -- and I will take some responsibility for
6 this -- is that at some point in time, I remember --
7 and I just -- my mind has gone blank. And this
8 happened several days in a row -- Mr. -- that lawyer
9 that's such a good lawyer from New York that does
10 such a lot of your legal argument.
11 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Lieberman.
12 THE COURT: Mr. Lieberman at some point in time
13 said -- I think -- God knows what the record will
14 reflect in this case, but I think Mr. Lieberman said
15 in this case that not only are you challenging the
16 false filings, which would have something to do --
17 false filings, presumably with terminating sanctions
18 and maybe with requests for attorneys' fees and that
19 kind of a sanction --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
21 THE COURT: -- but also the -- the -- no basis
22 in fact -- or there was no basis in fact for the
23 filing. Somehow that -- I got that tied up into
24 this motion.
25 And I said to Mr. Dandar at that time, "Well,
72
1 now you're on notice that that's at issue here too."
2 And -- and so I understand what he's thinking, I put
3 this at issue. Then I got to thinking and said,
4 "Well, you better file a summary judgment," which
5 you've done. We've tied him up here day in and day
6 out and he may not have gotten his response to that
7 ready. And I told him I needed it by the end of the
8 hearing, which seemed to be quite a ways off.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
10 THE COURT: But I must admit, I thought if I'm
11 going to have to listen to everything, Mr. Prince
12 would explain, if he were permitted to testify at a
13 trial, if there's a trial, I'm thinking, "I could be
14 here for two weeks." And I'm thinking, "Why do I
15 have to hear that?"
16 MR. WEINBERG: You don't. That's not supposed
17 to happen.
18 THE COURT: Somehow we all got -- whether it's
19 my fault, whether it's something I misunderstood or
20 whatever, I -- I think that -- that perhaps we've
21 expanded this hearing beyond where it needs to be
22 expanded.
23 MR. WEINBERG: I agree.
24 THE COURT: And so what do you think,
25 Mr. Dandar?
73
1 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to argue with you.
2 But you can't -- I mean, I looked at their motion
3 for terminating sanctions. What you just said is
4 all true. You told me I better be ready --
5 THE COURT: I know I did.
6 MR. DANDAR: -- and I better present my
7 evidence.
8 THE COURT: Right.
9 MR. DANDAR: And I'm prepared to do that
10 next -- this coming week, on --
11 You know, the sham pleading terminating
12 sanction -- that theory that they proposed to you,
13 is not -- in my humble opinion, not supported by any
14 case law. They're citing 57.105. That's a sanction
15 of attorney fees, if you allege something and you
16 have no factual basis to allege it. It doesn't say
17 the attorney gets disqualified and the case gets
18 dismissed. It says you can't allege -- the entire
19 complaint has to be --
20 THE COURT: Now, it sounds to me like you want
21 to talk about that motion. We don't need to talk
22 about that --
23 MR. DANDAR: All right. Sorry, your Honor.
24 THE COURT: -- right now.
25 MR. DANDAR: All right.
74
1 THE COURT: Save that argument.
2 MR. DANDAR: We need --
3 THE COURT: Save that thought, Mr. Dandar.
4 MR. DANDAR: We need an evidentiary hearing
5 because they allege: Sham pleading. Dismiss the
6 entire case. So I need to present my evidence
7 through testimony. You have to evaluate the
8 credibility of the witness on whether or not
9 Scientology has any type of policy to let someone
10 die because of public relation problems. That's
11 what we allege in paragraph 34. And I said it's
12 based upon my pathologists. And you've already read
13 their testimony.
14 THE COURT: I have. I need to go back and read
15 it --
16 MR. DANDAR: I'm going --
17 THE COURT: You're going to --
18 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to --
19 THE COURT: Right.
20 Mind you, I just went back and looked for what
21 I could find hurriedly --
22 MR. DANDAR: Right.
23 THE COURT: -- one day to see what they said.
24 I'm sure I didn't read it all, that -- their
25 depositions, too, were hundreds and hundreds and
75
1 hundreds and hundreds of pages.
2 MR. DANDAR: And I have been consistently,
3 constantly working on the reply memorandum at night,
4 on weekends --
5 THE COURT: The reply memorandum to the
6 terminating sanctions?
7 MR. DANDAR: Both. The disqualification motion
8 and terminating sanctions.
9 THE COURT: Yeah. Because I don't have
10 anything from you on that.
11 MR. DANDAR: No. I'm not --
12 THE COURT: You're --
13 MR. DANDAR: I mean, I'm getting witnesses
14 ready, myself ready, testifying, and -- but I'm
15 doing it at night, weekends, whenever I can. I
16 haven't been to my office. Somewhere there's an
17 office --
18 THE COURT: So you're saying that I need to
19 hear this.
20 MR. DANDAR: You need to hear this.
21 THE COURT: Okay.
22 MR. DANDAR: Because these are -- like you told
23 me, these are very serious allegations.
24 THE COURT: Yes, they are.
25 MR. DANDAR: And Mr. Alexander is going to
76
1 testify to the issues raised by Mr. Minton and
2 Ms. Brooks in their testimony and affidavits.
3 THE COURT: All right. Well, I'm going to --
4 like I said, at least for today, I want to hear
5 everything you want to present. And I'm going to
6 sort of sit down and see where I think we might be.
7 And you know, I may change a little of the course of
8 where we are come Monday. May not.
9 But go on ahead with Mr. Alexander.
10 MR. WEINBERG: May I say one more thing --
11 THE COURT: Yes.
12 MR. WEINBERG: -- in response to what Ken just
13 said?
14 He said that he needed the opportunity to have
15 an evidentiary hearing in order to establish, for
16 example, whether Scientology has a policy to let
17 someone die.
18 And see, that's not what this hearing is about.
19 If -- if he had evidence of that, it should have
20 been presented way long prior to this hearing and in
21 response to a summary judgment motion. You don't
22 have an evidentiary motion. You -- you present
23 whatever your evidence is.
24 THE COURT: Well, but part of it is -- I think
25 what he's saying is -- and I'll have to go back -- I
77
1 have to go back and read this again. And I'm going
2 to take it home this weekend, although I don't want
3 to spend all weekend --
4 MR. WEINBERG: And our motion, the motion for
5 summary judgment too.
6 THE COURT: Yes.
7 And I want to see --
8 But I think that was part of the allegation.
9 In other words, that the -- the pleading itself, the
10 complaint, was fraudulent, a sham, no basis -- and
11 that was part of the terminating sanctions --
12 MR. WEINBERG: But see, what --
13 THE COURT: -- and disqualification of
14 Mr. Dandar.
15 MR. WEINBERG: That's true.
16 But see, it is not -- but -- but you don't then
17 come in, after the pleading is filed, and present
18 new evidence. I mean, that's -- that's --
19 THE COURT: I don't know if it is or not. And
20 that's why I have to hear it.
21 And I'll tell you why I say that. If he was
22 listed as a witness ---
23 MR. WEINBERG: He being --
24 THE COURT: He being, for example, this
25 gentleman --
78
1 MR. WEINBERG: Okay.
2 THE COURT: -- Mr. Alexander. And if
3 Mr. Alexander were deposed, and Mr. Alexander
4 didn't -- wasn't asked certain questions --
5 Now, I grant you, that with all of the
6 discovery that was taken in this case, I'm certain
7 that there were interrogatories, and I'm sure there
8 were requests for admission and all that sort of
9 stuff. I don't know what those are, so I'm not in
10 any position to evaluate whether something's new or
11 isn't new. That would have to be addressed.
12 MR. WEINBERG: Right.
13 THE COURT: And if it's -- if it's something
14 that's new, was it something that was just learned;
15 was it something that --
16 MR. WEINBERG: I mean, as far as terminating
17 sanctions are concerned, it's not what the
18 evidence -- what evidence -- new evidence you
19 present today; it's whether, at the time that you
20 filed the pleading and proceeded with the case, you
21 had evidence.
22 THE COURT: Well, you see, Mr. Prince says he
23 had evidence, and Mr. Prince said --
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing about that.
25 THE COURT: -- these things happened --
79
1 Well, if what he's now -- and you said
2 Mr. Prince doesn't know anything. If in fact, other
3 witnesses know what Mr. Prince said, it gives some
4 validity to the fact that Mr. Prince had the basis.
5 Therefore, Ken Dandar had the basis. Therefore, it
6 was not a sham pleading. Needs to be resolved by --
7 I don't know -- on summary judgment, or it needs to
8 be resolved by a jury.
9 So for now we're going forward.
10 MR. WEINBERG: I understand.
11 And in response to your question regarding
12 whether he, Mr. Alexander, was ever listed as a
13 witness, he was listed by Mr. Dandar several years
14 ago as an expert, and we were told he was going to
15 be the expert to speak to the issue as to whether or
16 not Scientology was a religion, and he was going
17 to -- he was going to give expert testimony that it
18 was not a religion.
19 Judge Moody then --
20 THE COURT: Well, you've listed Mr. -- you
21 know, I realize something in reading something --
22 You all listed all of these people as your
23 witnesses, didn't you?
24 MR. WEINBERG: Not Peter Alexander.
25 THE COURT: You didn't list him?
80
1 MR. WEINBERG: No.
2 THE COURT: Okay. There were a lot of them,
3 though, a lot of people that were listed as
4 witnesses that were these kind of ex-Scientology
5 people.
6 MR. WEINBERG: We listed them?
7 THE COURT: Yes.
8 MR. DANDAR: Bob Minton --
9 MR. WEINBERG: Well --
10 MR. DANDAR: -- Stacy Brooks --
11 THE COURT: Yeah.
12 MR. DANDAR: -- Grady Ward.
13 MR. MOXON: We listed a few people as to the
14 counterclaim, but Mr. Alexander was listed only for
15 this issue. Mr. Dandar indicated he was going to
16 testify as to his view that Scientology wasn't a
17 religion. His deposition was very briefly taken.
18 It was suspended. Mr. Dandar then said, "I'm
19 withdrawing him because that's not going to be an
20 issue anymore."
21 And indeed, to point out something very
22 important, I think Mr. Dandar said, "Now I'm going
23 to come and try to give some interpretations of
24 various writings of Scientology to prove this
25 point."
81
1 I just printed off a response that plaintiff
2 filed as to some interrogatories, because this
3 obviously was kind of an issue, and we thought that
4 there was no possible way that we could do this.
5 And we asked him what writings he's relying on in
6 supporting the fifth amended complaint. And he
7 answered in bold -- for some reason, he bolded it to
8 really emphasize -- says, "Plaintiff does not rely
9 on any writings of L. Ron Hubbard in support of his
10 fifth amended complaint."
11 So obviously, you know, we had a right to rely
12 on that.
13 And this was over a year after he filed the
14 fifth amended complaint, incidentally.
15 THE COURT: Well, then I suppose at the
16 appropriate time, if there's new evidence, I'll have
17 to deal with it. I can't stop him from going
18 forward based on your pleading at this time, and I
19 have no intention of it, so --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And those were my
21 musings.
22 Maybe we can think further about it over the
23 weekend --
24 THE COURT: Yes.
25 MR. WEINBERG: -- and see where we are.
82
1 THE COURT: Yes.
2 MR. WEINBERG: Now, I was handed another -- on
3 this routing slip thing, we have found some more
4 numbers. But I've written them down. I'm just
5 going to give them to --
6 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar?
7 MR. WEINBERG: -- to Mr. Dandar.
8 Do I need to --
9 THE COURT: All right.
10 MR. WEINBERG: -- put this in the record or --
11 THE COURT: If you want to.
12 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
13 THE COURT: Since you put some of them in the
14 record.
15 MR. WEINBERG: But I'll give you the list. You
16 don't need to write them down.
17 It's FSO03751 through 03956. And our records
18 indicate they were produced on 7-31-98. FSO02255
19 through 02256, produced 7-31-98. FSO03046 through
20 03052, produced 7-31-98. And FSO03063 through
21 03066, produced 11-19-97.
22 What my records indicate.
23 THE COURT: All right.
24 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to hand this to you,
25 Ken.
83
1 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thanks.
2 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, you may proceed.
3 MR. DANDAR: Thank you.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Mr. Alexander, we left off with you talking about
6 David Miscavige and the Sea Org. What position does -- does
7 he hold in the Sea Org?
8 A I think he's captain of the Sea Org.
9 Q Is there anyone of equal rank as him?
10 A No.
11 Q Is there anyone of greater rank?
12 A No.
13 Q And is the -- what does the Sea Org do?
14 A The Sea Org is the full-time professional staff,
15 and they staff every Scientology organization, corporation
16 that is at a certain level and above. They wouldn't
17 normally be, for example, in the missions, which are
18 franchises. But the full-time organizations are generally
19 staffed by Sea Org people.
20 Q And as the captain of the Sea Org within your
21 20-plus years in Scientology, do you know if Mr. Miscavige
22 has any authority or power in that position?
23 A Absolute authority. Subject to it being -- I'll
24 just qualify that -- subject -- it has to be sure that what
25 he's directing is in tech and on policy.
84
1 Q Okay. It doesn't matter then what corporation it
2 is?
3 A No. It wouldn't matter.
4 Q Now --
5 THE COURT: Is that i-n, in?
6 THE WITNESS: In. Yeah. It means it's in
7 accordance with the writings of L. Ron Hubbard.
8 THE COURT: Okay. You said in tech, and what
9 was the other thing?
10 THE WITNESS: On policy.
11 THE COURT: On, o-n?
12 THE WITNESS: Yeah. On policy. That means
13 it's in accordance with the policies that L. Ron
14 Hubbard wrote.
15 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. Continue.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Do you have any percipient knowledge --
18 MR. WEINBERG: Can we define that term, your
19 Honor?
20 THE COURT: He was --
21 MR. DANDAR: I just had to do that.
22 THE COURT: He's laughing.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Do you have any personal knowledge as to the
25 involvement of Mr. Miscavige, for instance, in Clearwater?
85
1 A One instance, yes. I was called over by Ken
2 Pearse, who was the architect on the building that's going
3 up across the street from the Ft. Harrison. It's called the
4 Super Power Building. And he asked me if I could help him
5 out. And in the course of that, he went through all the
6 plans with me and he wanted my design ideas. And then he
7 asked if we would -- as part of my company, the Totally Fun
8 Company, maybe make a model of the building for him because
9 he had a presentation for David Miscavige.
10 And then I organized that process, and I got ready
11 to do that. And then he called me back and said, "Never
12 mind. We're not making a copy of that. David Miscavige
13 went through every single thing in that building, every
14 single room." He said, "It's all different. So forget --
15 you know," and I said, "Okay. Fine."
16 So yeah, in that instance, with -- Ken Pearse was
17 like the staff Scientology architect that was overseeing the
18 building and -- and its basic design.
19 Q And is that building -- as far as you know, is
20 that a Flag building or is that some other corporation of
21 Scientology?
22 A When I contributed to it -- and I contributed a
23 hundred thousand dollars to that building when I was in
24 Scientology -- the -- the Super Power people, office staff,
25 Charmain Roger and various reges, told me that that was a
86
1 separate corporation and that my money was going to a
2 separate place than the rest of the Flag land base.
3 Q Did you question why that was a separate
4 corporation?
5 A No.
6 THE COURT: Why do we care about that?
7 MR. DANDAR: No, we don't.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q What year was that?
10 THE COURT: Thank you.
11 MR. DANDAR: That's my last question.
12 A 1995.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q What month, if you remember?
15 A It's about the last time -- the last time I talked
16 to her about it, or the first time I learned that.
17 Q Different corporation.
18 A Oh, different corporation.
19 Oh, that would have been the first time I
20 contributed to Super Power, which might have been -- it was
21 before then. I don't recall. I recall the last time was
22 around November of '95.
23 Q And when you contribute to the Super Power project
24 to build a building, do you go to a Super Power office?
25 A Yes.
87
1 Q And where is the office?
2 A It was in the -- what they call the cabanas in the
3 back of the Ft. Harrison, right against the back fence.
4 Q That separates -- that fence separates the cabana
5 from the street?
6 A Yes.
7 Q And are there other cabanas where members of the
8 public stay, next to that Super Power office?
9 A Yeah. Their office was right in the middle of
10 what looked like -- I presume were regular rooms, guest
11 rooms.
12 Q Okay. Based upon your observance of the physical
13 layout of the Super Power office and the cabana at the rear
14 of the Ft. Harrison property, and based upon your experience
15 with Scientology, could you -- would you agree that that
16 would be a good place to put a psychotic person, next to the
17 Super Power office, that's banging on walls and yelling and
18 screaming?
19 A That's --
20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
21 THE COURT: I'll allow it.
22 A Absolutely not. Because there were wealthy
23 members of the public coming in and out of there all the
24 time. And you know, that's where they would, like, you
25 know, give us T-shirts and give us things. And we would go
88
1 in and talk to them and have, you know, discussions with
2 them about the building. That's where, actually, Charmain
3 asked me to go over and see Ken Pearse. I was in the office
4 there.
5 So there were members of the public coming and
6 going there frequently.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Now, in your experience, have you ever come across
9 the term in Scientology known -- something known as a PR
10 flap?
11 A Yes. That's --
12 Q And what circumstance did you come across that?
13 A I think --
14 THE COURT: Is this a term that's used somehow
15 or another in the church? A flap? I mean, I keep
16 seeing it all the time.
17 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
18 MR. DANDAR: Yes, it is. And it's in paragraph
19 34.
20 THE COURT: Okay. I realize that it seemed
21 like -- I didn't know why you chose that word, but
22 there must be a reason.
23 Okay.
24 A There was a Time -- actually, there was a Time
25 Magazine article in 1991. And I heard about it, and I
89
1 talked to Sonjia Jacques, the reg, about it --
2 BY MR. DANDAR:
3 Q And would --
4 THE COURT: The what?
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q Could you tell what a reg is?
7 A The reg is -- I'm sorry. This is all Scientology
8 lingo. The registrar is the person who signs you up for
9 more courses and takes your money. Would be like a sales
10 representative or something like that.
11 Q Okay.
12 A Yeah.
13 So I was talking to Sonjia about it. I said,
14 Well -- I don't know that all this is relevant, but --
15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, objection, your Honor, as
16 to -- he can say what he said, but I object to
17 eliciting hearsay from other people, particularly if
18 he doesn't even know that it's relevant.
19 THE COURT: Well, it's -- I don't know what --
20 where he's going with this. I don't know what it is
21 he knows about a PR flap.
22 MR. DANDAR: That's what --
23 THE COURT: That's what --
24 MR. DANDAR: -- I'm trying --
25 THE COURT: -- my question was.
90
1 MR. DANDAR: -- to find out.
2 A I --
3 THE COURT: Let me hear this --
4 A Okay.
5 THE COURT: -- and I -- I may strike it.
6 A I -- I was working at Universal at the time,
7 and -- just about the final phases of it, I think. And I
8 told her that I had contacted -- or I think I was just out
9 of Universal. That's what it was. I told her that I had
10 contacted one of the senior executives there in charge of
11 the motion picture division, and he kind of chewed me out
12 about having been in Scientology. And he said he read this
13 Time Magazine article, and -- Mr. Pollack. He was in charge
14 of the motion picture division. And he said, "Peter, I like
15 you, but don't you ever ask me to do anything in favor of
16 Scientology again." Because I had asked him for a favor one
17 time. And he said --
18 And so I related that to Sonjia. And she said,
19 "This Time Magazine is a huge PR flap." And that was one of
20 the first times I ever heard that phrase, and so I therefore
21 presumed it was a public relation disaster. That's
22 basically what it meant.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q All right. And have you ever heard the term "the
25 greatest good for the greatest number"; or that phrase, I
91
1 should say?
2 A Yes. That's the definition of what is ethical in
3 Scientology. There is -- there's dynamics, which are
4 avenues of survival. Like yourself; sex and family dynamic
5 groups; and mankind as a whole. That's the way L. Ron
6 Hubbard divided up human life. These are all avenues of
7 survival. And according to him, what is ethical and what is
8 right is what is good for the greatest number -- the
9 greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. So in
10 other words, what's most pro-survival is what's good, what's
11 right.
12 Q And in your -- the courses that you took at the
13 Church of Scientology, does that phrase, the greatest good
14 for the greatest number, have anything to do with whether or
15 not a Scientologist would lie under oath?
16 A Oh, absolutely.
17 Q What?
18 A Well, there's a little more to it than that.
19 You know, when you are in Scientology, you read L.
20 Ron Hubbard's writings. And one of the things that he says
21 is, what is true for you is true for you, and it's true
22 according to your reality. Now, reality is defined as
23 agreement. In other words, it's what we agree on. So if we
24 agree that that screen over there is black instead of white,
25 then that's reality.
92
1 So if it changes from day to day, what is good for
2 the greatest number of dynamics and reality changes. In
3 other words, it's no longer pro-survival that that screen is
4 black. Now it should be white. That is ethical. And so
5 it's okay to do that.
6 Because beyond that, I would say the major thing
7 about Scientology is, it is felt, and particularly felt
8 by -- in my observation, just by talking to professional
9 staff members, that Scientology is the sole and only hope
10 for mankind. It's written in the policy letter called,
11 Keeping Scientology Working, that you have to read at the
12 beginning of every course. And you have to do what's called
13 star rate checkout this policy, which means you have another
14 student or the supervisor go through and check you out and
15 make sure that you know what that means.
16 And what it says is that, you know, basically,
17 it's either Scientology or nuclear disaster for the earth.
18 And Scientology is the hope.
19 And when you're in Scientology, once you sign up,
20 he says, "You sign up for the duration." He says, "No
21 namby-pamby group of pantywaist dilettantes ever created
22 anything. Only the tiger survived, and not them even too
23 well."
24 So what you're taught then is if you're in
25 Scientology, and you're supposed to be there, it's the most
93
1 important thing that's going on. So that would, I'm sure in
2 many cases, justify people, you know, doing what we would
3 call a lie. Because in the long run, they would feel that
4 the ends justify the means, because it would support
5 Scientology.
6 That's a long answer, but that's --
7 Q Okay.
8 A That's the way it is.
9 THE COURT: It also was a little over my head,
10 I must say.
11 THE WITNESS: Did you --
12 THE COURT: If you and I think that screen is
13 black --
14 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
15 THE COURT: -- and -- and you and I are the
16 only two that count -- is that what you're saying?
17 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's it. In other
18 words --
19 THE COURT: Then it is black.
20 THE WITNESS: Exactly.
21 THE COURT: And therefore, if somebody asked me
22 what color it is, whether I'm under oath or
23 otherwise, I can say it's black.
24 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Because we've agreed.
25 THE COURT: Because for the two of us, who are
94
1 all that count in this little equation, or the -- or
2 the greatest -- however that fits in --
3 THE WITNESS: Right.
4 THE COURT: -- the greatest good for the
5 greatest number.
6 THE WITNESS: Right.
7 THE COURT: If you and I are the only number --
8 THE WITNESS: Right.
9 THE COURT: -- then for us, that screen is
10 black.
11 THE WITNESS: That's correct.
12 THE COURT: And it wouldn't really matter,
13 really, whether we were under oath or otherwise. It
14 would be all right --
15 Are you suggesting that that's what -- I mean,
16 am I --
17 THE WITNESS: That's what -- that's what I'm
18 suggesting. Because that is --
19 You know, you have to look at the person's
20 viewpoint. And I wouldn't say that a public member
21 like me would necessarily -- I've probably never had
22 that viewpoint, and I was never therefore -- they'll
23 tear me apart in cross examination, but I'll just
24 tell you, I was never, therefore, a great
25 Scientologist. I wouldn't do that kind of thing.
95
1 But my ex-wife was very, very dedicated, and
2 she thought that Scientology -- and she proved it
3 over and over again -- was more important than
4 anything else. So who knows?
5 But I -- I would think that, yeah, that would
6 be easily justified.
7 And I did a lot of research on cults and --
8 THE COURT: What would be easily be justified?
9 You and I deciding that --
10 THE WITNESS: That that's black. And that's
11 pro-survival. And we have to say that it's black.
12 And so therefore it is.
13 But tomorrow, if it becomes pro-survival to say
14 it's white, then we'll agree that it's white now,
15 and we'll say that.
16 THE COURT: Okay. I think I understand what he
17 said.
18 THE WITNESS: It's like subjective morality.
19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor --
20 BY MR. DANDAR:
21 Q Mr. --
22 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I'm sitting quiet
23 based on your -- what you said earlier, but I hope
24 you don't think that my silence is -- I mean, this
25 man obviously is being offered as an expert on
96
1 Scientology by saying these things. And he's not.
2 And he hasn't been qualified. And -- and --
3 THE COURT: I don't think he's being offered as
4 an expert, is he?
5 MR. DANDAR: No.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, he's --
7 MR. DANDAR: He's a public member.
8 THE COURT: Public member.
9 MR. DANDAR: At least he was.
10 MR. WEINBERG: Saying Scientologists lie as a
11 matter of policy is what I thought I heard him say.
12 THE COURT: I didn't --
13 MR. WEINBERG: And I didn't understand --
14 THE COURT: I didn't hear that. I think he was
15 saying something different. Thus far, I don't know
16 that he's been offered as an expert, nor has he said
17 anything --
18 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
19 THE COURT: -- that's expert.
20 But I do not take your silence --
21 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
22 THE COURT: -- to be in any way that you agree
23 with what he's saying, or that you will not --
24 MR. WEINBERG: Full cross examination.
25 THE COURT: -- have full cross examination with
97
1 these issues and what have you. And I appreciate
2 your being silent so we can maybe get through this.
3 MR. WEINBERG: I thought so.
4 BY MR. DANDAR:
5 Q Mr. Alexander, there's something in Scientology
6 called the tech.
7 A Right.
8 Q What is that?
9 A The tech is the technology of Scientology. That's
10 the auditing processes, the training, everything to do with
11 the application of the teachings of L. Ron Hubbard to
12 theoretically improve a person or a group or something like
13 that.
14 Q And what is the view from a Scientologist as to
15 infallibility of the tech?
16 A It's actually infallible. Been keeping
17 Scientology working.
18 L. Ron Hubbard writes -- and this is from memory
19 from years ago but I can still remember this -- that not
20 only do you have to be sure that you are in tech and you're
21 keeping the tech, you have to slam the door on any
22 possibility of out tech. And --
23 THE COURT: Of what?
24 THE WITNESS: Out tech. Out tech is when
25 something is done that is not in accordance with a
98
1 Scientology process that's correct.
2 I'm sorry about the slang.
3 THE COURT: That's all right. Just pardon me
4 when I ask you what you're talking about.
5 A So in order to -- to correctly implement the tech,
6 you have to slam the door on the possibility that it could
7 be done wrong. And you are under an obligation to do that
8 because, standard tech always works. It doesn't work some
9 of the time; it doesn't work on Tuesday; it doesn't work on
10 Friday. It works all the time if it's correctly applied.
11 That is the teaching of L. Ron Hubbard, and that is what you
12 learn in Scientology.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q And when -- just to --
15 THE COURT: You all agree with that, don't you?
16 I mean, that's -- that's -- I read that in that
17 little -- the pamphlet that you all gave me, What Is
18 Scientology?
19 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, it's harder for me to
20 bite my tongue than it is for Mr. Weinberg. But the
21 opinions of Mr. Alexander and his view as a -- you
22 know, as an apostate -- obviously, he indicated that
23 he had some problems or disagreements with --
24 THE COURT: You're well beyond my question.
25 I said you would agree with that, wouldn't you?
99
1 That -- that what -- the tech is, it's correct and
2 it's infallible. I mean, that's what I thought I
3 read in the book, What Is Scientology?
4 MR. MOXON: That's -- that's basically correct.
5 It's -- I mean, infallibility obviously is a
6 Catholic concept. But yeah, obviously,
7 Scientologists believe in their religion.
8 THE COURT: Of course. And that's --
9 MR. MOXON: If we --
10 THE COURT: And so do -- you know, so do people
11 who believe in the Bible. They take it very
12 literal. They very much believe what it says. And
13 what it says sometimes can be up for grabs, but --
14 Okay. Continue on.
15 BY MR. DANDAR:
16 Q So how does -- is there a reputation for Flag here
17 in Clearwater in reference to the tech?
18 A Flag is the mecca of technical perfection. This
19 is the -- this is the top of the line. This is the best
20 tech. This is a hundred percent standard tech. It's always
21 done that way. And everybody who is on staff that I talked
22 to takes great pride in that.
23 Q And based upon your living in Clearwater and
24 attending Flag and your personal experiences and
25 observations, what would Scientology do to protect that
100
1 image of being in the perfect application of the tech here
2 in Clearwater?
3 A Well, I would think that they would do anything
4 that they could, because protecting Scientology would be the
5 highest purpose possible.
6 Q Including letting someone die?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor.
8 THE COURT: Overruled.
9 MR. WEINBERG: What he's asking him is, would
10 Scientology -- he's -- he said, I think, would
11 Scientology as a policy let somebody die. What --
12 THE COURT: No. I think what he is saying is
13 this: I think what he is saying is that tech --
14 Clearwater is the mecca -- whatever he said -- mecca
15 of --
16 MR. DANDAR: Technical perfection.
17 THE COURT: -- technical perfection. The tech
18 is never wrong. That what he is saying is that the
19 tech of the introspection rundown -- even though he
20 doesn't know what it is -- but the tech of the
21 introspection rundown would be followed even if
22 somebody died in the process.
23 MR. WEINBERG: That's not what he asked.
24 THE COURT: I think --
25 MR. WEINBERG: That's not what he asked.
101
1 THE COURT: Well, I think that's what he's --
2 MR. WEINBERG: No. What he asked -- what he
3 asked was -- is --
4 THE COURT: Even if it meant allowing somebody
5 to die.
6 MR. WEINBERG: No. That's not what he asked.
7 THE COURT: That's what I thought he asked.
8 MR. DANDAR: That's what I asked.
9 THE COURT: Madam court reporter, read back the
10 question.
11 MR. WEINBERG: It's -- there's one question
12 before and then there's the question.
13 THE REPORTER: "And based upon your living in
14 Clearwater and attending Flag and your personal
15 experiences and observations, what would Scientology
16 do to protect that image of being in the perfect
17 application of the tech here in Clearwater?"
18 "Including letting someone die?"
19 THE COURT: For now I'm going to allow it.
20 Go ahead.
21 A So I didn't get to answer that question.
22 But yes, you have to apply the standard tech. And
23 if somebody dies, well, you have to still apply the standard
24 tech.
25
102
1 BY MR. DANDAR:
2 Q Well, you read that -- did you take the PTS/SP
3 course?
4 A Yes, I did.
5 THE COURT: The what?
6 MR. DANDAR: PTS/SP course.
7 MR. MOXON: Stands for potential trouble
8 source/suppressive person.
9 BY MR. DANDAR:
10 Q And isn't there a policy in there about treating
11 psychotics?
12 A Yes. There is a policy. And I don't recall if
13 it's -- it was in that pack or not, but I think it was --
14 Q Do you recall Search and Discovery?
15 A Yes. I do recall. I do recall reading a policy
16 that basically said that you can not treat psychotics. They
17 are illegal PCs.
18 Q PCs?
19 A Yeah. I'm sorry. More Scientology lingo. Pre --
20 THE COURT: I know what that means. Preclear.
21 MR. DANDAR: I just didn't know if you did.
22 A Yeah. That would be an illegal preclear.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q An illegal preclear.
25 A Right. Means you can't help them with Scientology
103
1 technology.
2 Q And so based upon your experience, would an
3 illegal preclear, meaning someone who's psychotic, be
4 allowed on the property of the Ft. Harrison Hotel?
5 A No. They shouldn't be even there.
6 Q Do you recall Search and Discovery, Mr. Hubbard
7 says sometimes these psycotics --
8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to the form, your
9 Honor.
10 THE COURT: I'm sorry? I --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form as
12 leading.
13 THE COURT: I was writing so I didn't even hear
14 it.
15 Go on ahead. Just re-ask your question.
16 BY MR. DANDAR:
17 Q Do you recall in Search and Discovery, Mr. Hubbard
18 states sometimes a psychotic person cannot be kept alive?
19 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form.
20 THE COURT: Well --
21 MR. WEINBERG: He already said he didn't
22 remember Search and Discovery.
23 THE COURT: Well --
24 MR. DANDAR: It's either a yes or a no answer.
25 THE COURT: Yeah. That's a yes or no answer.
104
1 A The answer is -- is no, I don't recall that policy
2 specifically.
3 BY MR. DANDAR:
4 Q While you were a public member of Scientology, who
5 is standing in 1995 and 1996 and 1997, did you know about
6 Lisa McPherson's death?
7 A No. I knew that -- that someone had died there,
8 but I didn't know anything about it.
9 Q Well, didn't you read the newspapers?
10 A No. We were encouraged not to read the
11 newspapers. The newspapers are viewed in Scientology -- I
12 can remember from the PTS/SP course, there's a bulletin in
13 there called Merchants of Chaos. And that describes the
14 press, the media as merchants of chaos. They're selling
15 disaster. And don't read those newspapers, because it's
16 just all lies.
17 Q Do you know Dr. Minkoff, Dr. David Minkoff?
18 A Yes. He was a friend of mine.
19 Q And did you know him while you were a
20 Scientologist?
21 A Yes. He ceased being a friend of mine after I was
22 out of Scientology and was declared as a suppressive person,
23 so he couldn't talk to me anymore.
24 Q And you still have three children who are
25 Scientologists?
105
1 A Yes. I have two children, and my ex-wife is a
2 Scientologist.
3 Q And are you allowed to talk to your children?
4 A My son sent me what's called a disconnect letter,
5 which said, "Dear Dad: I love you. I think you're the
6 coolest guy on earth and I bragged to you -- about all my
7 friends to you, but since you do not like Scientology, I can
8 never talk to you again."
9 I also heard that from my daughter, who is 17
10 years old.
11 Q Is that your daughter who has Down's Syndrome?
12 A Yeah. She has Down's Syndrome.
13 Q Are you an anti-Scientologist?
14 A No. My -- my -- my two kids are in Scientology,
15 and I -- actually still like my ex-wife as a person. She's
16 in Scientology.
17 Q Okay. Did you have any conversations with the
18 former defendant, Dr. David Minkoff, in this case, about
19 people who have mental breakdowns; and as an OT8
20 Scientologist with Dr. Minkoff, how did he respond to you?
21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay.
22 Conversations with -- he can answer the question if
23 he had any conversations, yes or no, but as to the
24 substance of the conversation, that's just hearsay.
25 MR. DANDAR: Does not go to the -- does not go
106
1 to the truth of the conversation; it goes to the
2 state of mind of Dr. Minkoff, who's involved heavily
3 in the case of Lisa McPherson.
4 THE COURT: I think it's hearsay. Overruled --
5 I mean, sustained.
6 MR. DANDAR: Can we proffer it?
7 THE COURT: Yeah. You can proffer it.
8 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
9 A So should I answer that?
10 BY MR. DANDAR:
11 Q Yes.
12 A Okay. Yeah. David -- 'cause I asked him, 'cause
13 he was the emergency room doctor at the hospital up in Palm
14 Harbor. And I said, "What do you do, David, when you got
15 somebody who comes in who's nuts? Do you use Scientology on
16 them?" He says, "No, I can't do that. I'm a doctor and
17 that's my job." He says, "I'll talk to them," he says, "but
18 every doctor would talk to them." He says, "No. I've got
19 to send them to, you know, a psychiatric institution." He
20 says, "Even if I, you know, don't think that's the world's
21 greatest thing to do, that's where they have to go, because
22 that's my responsibility."
23 Q And if the proper tech is being applied, as you
24 understand the tech in Scientology, can a Scientologist take
25 a psychotropic drug?
107
1 A Oh, no. That's -- absolutely not. In fact, from
2 what I understood, that would make you an illegal PC, un- --
3 illegal and not acceptable for treatment and -- in
4 Scientology, because the drugs would interfere with the
5 auditing, the counseling at Scientology.
6 THE COURT: Well, let me ask you this. And
7 this is just from my own understanding.
8 The Church of Scientology would not believe in
9 an illegal drug or a psych- -- psychotropic drug in
10 any event, would they?
11 THE WITNESS: Not according to any policy I
12 ever read, no, they wouldn't.
13 THE COURT: I mean, they're very against
14 illegal drugs.
15 THE WITNESS: Very against. And --
16 THE COURT: And they're --
17 THE WITNESS: -- they're against --
18 THE COURT: -- against -- well, psychiatry as
19 such -- I think of psychotropic drugs as being kind
20 of having to do with psychotic or some sort of
21 psychological problem.
22 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's correct.
23 BY MR. DANDAR:
24 Q Like injectable Valium is, for instance, a
25 psychotropic drug.
108
1 A If that's a psychotropic drug, then they would be
2 against that, because that's something that would make you
3 not capable of being audited or counseled.
4 Q Now, have you ever seen Lisa McPherson in person?
5 A Yeah. I saw her once.
6 Q Okay. Can you describe that occasion?
7 A I was just walking down the hall at the Ft.
8 Harrison, and I saw this pretty girl sitting there. And I
9 noticed her right away. And I didn't say anything to her,
10 and so I just moved along. But I didn't recognize her in
11 the photos that I first saw, because she had apparently dark
12 hair. But at that time, she had kind of more curly
13 blonde-ish hair, and she was made up. What I described --
14 she looked like a Texas lady; had a certain look.
15 Q And where was this at?
16 A She was sitting in front of where they audit the
17 people for what they call the L's.
18 Q L, apostrophe, S?
19 A Yeah.
20 It's a process.
21 MR. WEINBERG: Could we possibly date that,
22 your Honor?
23 THE COURT: Yes, indeed.
24 When was that, please?
25 THE WITNESS: I don't recall the date. I just
109
1 remember seeing her. I don't recall when that was.
2 THE COURT: Can you in any way associate it
3 with --
4 THE WITNESS: It was --
5 THE COURT: -- when you left the church?
6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I left the church in '97.
7 But I wouldn't have been over at the Ft. Harrison --
8 that was sometime when I was still being audited at
9 the Ft. Harrison.
10 I would say -- I want to say -- well, it was
11 before '95. Had to be '95 or before.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Okay.
14 A But I don't recall what year. It was in the '90s.
15 I mean, I know it was at least '92. And it was -- it was at
16 that period of time.
17 And it was just a fleeting memory. And I only
18 recognized her -- when I saw her with the curly blonde hair,
19 I said, "Oh, I've seen that girl."
20 Q Okay.
21 A Like that.
22 Q Within your experience of Scientology, how does
23 Scientology look at people who were not Scientologists?
24 A They're called WOGs, which stands for worthy
25 Oriental gentlemen. WOGs. For example, everybody in the
110
1 courtroom except the Scientologists are WOGs.
2 Q And what is that? Is that a nice term?
3 A No. It means that they're unenlightened; they're
4 the ones that have not become Scientologists.
5 THE COURT: Are women WOGs too?
6 MR. MOXON: Everybody's a WOG, ma'am.
7 THE COURT: Okay.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q As in your experience with Scientology, how does
10 Scientology view the individual versus the groups?
11 A Well --
12 THE COURT: What does that have to do with
13 anything?
14 MR. WEINBERG: This is real --
15 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me?
16 THE COURT: What does that have to do with
17 anything?
18 MR. DANDAR: Has to do with paragraph 4 of the
19 fifth amended complaint.
20 THE COURT: The individual versus the group?
21 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. DANDAR: All right.
24 A Yes. Again, everything that I recall stressed
25 that -- and my personal experience is -- stressed that the
111
1 group of Scientology was more important than the individual.
2 It wasn't that groups in general were more important, but
3 that group was more important because it had the sole power
4 to save the planet.
5 BY MR. DANDAR:
6 Q The group of Scientologists.
7 A Yes. That's correct.
8 Q And do you --
9 MR. DANDAR: We're almost getting now to the
10 movie, Judge.
11 THE COURT: Okay.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q Do you have a -- within your experience and being
14 a Scientologist, about whether or not a public member can
15 receive free services?
16 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. What is the
17 relevance of that, whether --
18 THE COURT: What is the relevance?
19 MR. DANDAR: I think I'd like to wait until
20 someone -- my experts talk about it, but I just want
21 his view -- his understanding --
22 THE COURT: A free --
23 MR. DANDAR: Free service.
24 THE WITNESS: Free service.
25 MR. WEINBERG: He said free, didn't he?
112
1 THE COURT: I think what he's going to hear,
2 quite frankly -- and I hate to say that in front of
3 the witness -- there was an allegation that Lisa
4 McPherson ran out of money when she was in -- in the
5 room. And therefore it may have some relevance she
6 was a public member.
7 MR. WEINBERG: Again, we're not trying the case
8 right now.
9 THE COURT: Well --
10 MR. WEINBERG: And the evidence -- the actual
11 evidence is that her employer, Ms. Slaughter --
12 THE COURT: You said that they had no basis
13 upon which to say they let her die. This is your
14 allegation.
15 MR. WEINBERG: That David Miscavige --
16 THE COURT: It is relevant, so it's overruled.
17 MR. WEINBERG: That David Miscavige ordered her
18 to die.
19 THE COURT: That -- he's mentioned in there.
20 But in other words, he -- even take him out.
21 The allegation is they intentionally let her die.
22 MR. WEINBERG: A decision to let her die.
23 THE COURT: A decision to let her die was made,
24 and they followed that.
25 MR. WEINBERG: And there's --
113
1 THE COURT: Including the defendants who are on
2 trial.
3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. And there's been five
4 years of discovery, and not one person has said, for
5 money reasons or any other reasons, that there was a
6 decision by anybody in that room, or anybody in
7 Clearwater, or anybody else --
8 THE COURT: Circumstantial evidence is good
9 evidence. A well-connected chain of circumstances
10 is as good as direct and positive evidence.
11 The question is, can you connect the
12 circumstances? The circumstances, I presume he's
13 trying to say -- I don't know -- is that somehow or
14 another somebody didn't pay, they wouldn't be fed or
15 given water.
16 I don't know what he's going to say.
17 MR. WEINBERG: All right.
18 THE COURT: That would be relevant, I suppose.
19 BY MR. DANDAR:
20 Q Is there policies within the Church of Scientology
21 about paying for services? Let's start there.
22 A Yes. You have to pay for every service. It's
23 called in exchange. In, i-n, exchange. And you pay for the
24 services; they give you the services back. That's a fair
25 exchange back and forth. And that's what Scientology relies
114
1 upon.
2 Q Is there a policy in Scientology if you don't pay?
3 A Well, if a -- I remember this very specifically.
4 If a staff member delivers free services, they are placed in
5 what's called a condition of treason, which means that they
6 have obviously turned, you know, against the group that
7 they're in. And those would be -- that would be a severe
8 condition.
9 THE COURT: I'm sorry. If a staff member gives
10 free services, they're placed where?
11 THE WITNESS: In a condition of treason. That
12 is one of the ethics conditions that you can be in.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q And as a public member for 20-plus years, do you
16 know what a routing form is?
17 A Yes. A routing form is what you use to sign up or
18 move around the org from course to course. Usually you get
19 one when you go into the Scientology org, and you're given
20 your routing form, and you go what they call route in. And
21 then when you've completed a service, a lot of times you'll
22 route out with a routing form.
23 Q So you can't walk into the Ft. Harrison Hotel and
24 just walk around?
25 A Well, you could up until the period of time.
115
1 After a while, I noticed that security was tightening, while
2 I was still in Scientology.
3 Q Now, here we go. When did you first meet Robert
4 Minton?
5 A It was December of 1998. And it was at the
6 protest against -- regarding the death of Lisa McPherson at
7 the hands of Scientology.
8 Q Did you hold a sign?
9 A Yeah. First time in my life I ever picketed
10 anything. I wasn't much on picketing.
11 Q Do you know what your sign said?
12 A It said something about the fact that I had been
13 OT7 and that it didn't work, or something to that effect.
14 You know, I -- I went because one of my staff
15 members wanted to go, and she -- she was a little nervous
16 about doing it, so I sort of went as her protection, I
17 guess.
18 Q And if you were a Scientologist and you said the
19 tech didn't work, what would happen to you as a public
20 member?
21 A Oh, well, publicly speaking out against
22 Scientology is grounds for being expelled and declared a
23 suppressive person. That's the worst crime.
24 Q Are you -- and if you don't know this, just tell
25 me, "I don't know."
116
1 In -- the word psychotic, as used in
2 Scientology --
3 A Right.
4 Q -- do you know what that means?
5 A There's a bunch of different definitions. The one
6 I remember is Type III, which means the person -- and I
7 don't remember the exact words -- but it means the person
8 doesn't really know where they are or what's happening.
9 They don't know what's real and what's not real.
10 Q So how long did you picket on December of '98?
11 A I think it was over two days.
12 Q And was that a -- how did the picketers -- what
13 were they doing besides just walking up and down with a
14 sign?
15 A There was a vigil in which the members of the
16 family came and they placed a wreath in the back of the Ft.
17 Harrison. There were get-togethers; there was a press
18 conference I recall that year. And Stacy Brooks spoke, and
19 some other people, to the assembled press. And that's
20 basically what we did.
21 And then I think, you know, afterwards, after the
22 picketing, people would go and chat and have, you know, a
23 drink or meals or something like that.
24 Q Was there any discussion of what you hoped to
25 accomplish in picketing?
117
1 A Not really on my part, other than I mentioned to
2 Bob Minton, as the person I met there -- I said, "Well, I
3 gave these guys a million dollars. They're up to no good.
4 So I guess I'll be walking here for a long time to make up
5 for that."
6 Q Is that the first time you met Jesse Prince?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Is that the first time you met Bob Minton?
9 A Yes.
10 Q Did either of them say anything about their hatred
11 for Scientology?
12 A No. They didn't hate Scientology.
13 Q Did either ever say, "We're picketing because we
14 want to harass and harangue Scientologists"?
15 A No. It was more, you know, if there was a general
16 consensus of the group -- and I wouldn't say it necessarily
17 came from them. It was more just to make note of the fact
18 that Scientology had -- was responsible for this girl's
19 death, and that the public needed to know about some of the
20 dangers of Scientology.
21 Q Did Mr. Minton talk to you about why he was
22 involved, since he was never a Scientologist?
23 A Yes. He and I had a long discussion about that as
24 we walked back and forth in front of the Ft. Harrison. And
25 he said that he was an Internet activist, and he heard that
118
1 Scientology was trying to suppress the free speech of some
2 of these Internet critics of Scientology. And so based on
3 that, based on First Amendment, he had helped them out with
4 their defense against some lawsuits by Scientology.
5 But he said he thought, "Well, they were a little
6 off the wall." I don't remember if that was his exact
7 phrase, but these Internet critics they were -- he didn't
8 totally believe them. They would tell wild stories of how
9 they had been followed and harassed, and their employers
10 contacted, and their jobs taken away from them because of
11 their protest activities against Scientology.
12 He said, you know, "I didn't really believe that
13 at first," he said, "until actually," he said, "until they
14 started following me." And I said, "What are they doing?"
15 And he said, "Well, they show up no matter where I go, no
16 matter where I fly. If I fly to Seattle, if I fly here, if
17 I fly there, they're already there at the airport protesting
18 against me." He said, "And even --" he says, "Sometimes
19 I've gone to the length of I will call and make my
20 reservations on my cell phone on the way to the airport," he
21 said. "They're still there."
22 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, objection. Hearsay.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Minton has testified. This may
24 be a little different from what he said. I think
25 this is proper.
119
1 Overruled.
2 A And so he --
3 MR. DANDAR: Wait, wait, wait.
4 Judge, I want you to -- I'm asking you to
5 invoke your rule that you announced the other day,
6 that only one attorney can --
7 THE COURT: One attorney only can object.
8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm doing the objecting.
9 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Minton --
10 Mr. Minton -- sorry -- Mr. Moxon, please then let
11 Mr. Weinberg do the objecting.
12 MR. MOXON: Very good.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Okay. So --
15 A So --
16 Q And they were following him.
17 A They were following him.
18 Q En route to the airport?
19 A But the thing he said -- Bob said, that upset him
20 the most, was they followed his two daughters. He's got
21 these two preteenage daughters. They followed them home
22 from school. And he thought that was unconscionable,
23 because it scared him.
24 Q Wait a minute. He wasn't just upset about that?
25 A He was upset about that, yeah.
120
1 Q But you just used the word "scared."
2 A Well, yeah. I mean, you know, the impression I
3 got from him, in talking to him, was that he might be able
4 to take care of himself, but his little girls -- that was a
5 different matter.
6 Q Did he equate or relay the people following him
7 around to any other group?
8 A He felt that they were Scientologists or
9 Scientology private investigators.
10 Q No. Did he --
11 A Oh, yeah.
12 Q -- make any similarities?
13 A Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. His analysis was -- yeah.
14 Yeah. I said, "Jeez, what does that make you feel like?"
15 He said, "It's like being followed by the Gestapo all the
16 time." That was Bob's phrase. The Gestapo. That's what he
17 thought about all the surveillance and harassment. It was
18 like being followed by the Gestapo. I remember those words.
19 Q Now, this is December of '98. Did you and
20 Mr. Minton talk about -- make any plans to somehow help the
21 ongoing Lisa McPherson wrongful death case that was then
22 pending in Tampa?
23 A No.
24 Q Did he talk about his involvement in the Lisa
25 McPherson case, back in that -- first time you met in
121
1 December of '98?
2 A No. He didn't talk about it at all.
3 Q December, '98, he didn't talk about he had some
4 deal where he was going to make millions of dollars --
5 MR. WEINBERG: Objection to form.
6 BY MR. DANDAR:
7 Q -- on the Lisa McPherson case?
8 THE COURT: Excuse me.
9 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to form. "In '98
10 he didn't talk about --" well, that's just a
11 leading -- it's a leading question --
12 THE COURT: Overruled.
13 MR. WEINBERG: -- suggesting --
14 A No. He didn't mention anything about the case
15 when I first met him there. We just talked about him being
16 followed. We talked about -- he was upset naturally because
17 they followed his daughters. And he -- he indicated that --
18 That was basically the conversation. You know, I
19 probably talked to him for 20, 30 minutes.
20 And we talked about other things. I talked about
21 my experiences and --
22 BY MR. DANDAR:
23 Q How long did you spend that day with Mr. Minton?
24 Or was it more than one day?
25 A I talked to him that day, first day, maybe 20,
122
1 30 -- long time. Walking back and forth, back and forth,
2 back and forth. I'd say 20, 30 minutes. And then the next
3 day, I think I saw him again and talked to him --
4 I think I probably talked more to Jesse that day.
5 Q Okay. And did Jesse Prince talk about what he
6 wanted to do to Scientology?
7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay. I mean, he
8 can answer the question if he had a conversation
9 with him, but it's just hearsay, the substance of
10 any conversation with Mr. --
11 THE COURT: I think his only question was, did
12 Jesse Prince have a conversation. Doesn't sound
13 like hearsay yet. Overruled.
14 A Yes. I had a conversation with Jesse. And
15 basically Jesse said --
16 THE COURT: Now --
17 MR. WEINBERG: Objection.
18 THE COURT: -- that's hearsay.
19 THE WITNESS: Okay.
20 THE COURT: That's sustained.
21 MR. DANDAR: Not offered for the truth of the
22 matter.
23 THE COURT: Well, that's always -- you know --
24 MR. DANDAR: It's offered for the state of mind
25 of Jesse Prince, which is an issue.
123
1 THE COURT: You know what, I'm going to tell
2 you, just like I tell the church about things I
3 think that they're going to try to do in the trial?
4 Don't try that on me. That is hogwash. I mean,
5 something's not offered for the truth of the matter
6 asserted -- you know what that is? It's a way to
7 try to get some poor stupid judge to buy letting in
8 hearsay. It is very rare that that applied. This
9 certainly isn't it.
10 How do you know it's not offered for the truth
11 of the matter asserted, or it's offered for his
12 state of mind? That's ridiculous. That is a very
13 limited hearsay exception. This certainly is not
14 it.
15 MR. DANDAR: Okay.
16 THE COURT: Ask Mr. Prince.
17 MR. DANDAR: All right. All right.
18 THE COURT: If you think he's going to
19 contradict Mr. Prince or if you think he's going to
20 impeach Mr. Prince, I'll let him, rather than you
21 bringing him back, do so. But I wouldn't suspect
22 that's why you're going to ask him. What you're
23 probably going to try to do is bolster Mr. Prince,
24 which is why it's improper.
25 Don't try it.
124
1 MR. DANDAR: I won't.
2 THE COURT: Here or in trial.
3 MR. DANDAR: All right.
4 THE COURT: So --
5 I just hate it when lawyers think that we're so
6 stupid or that I am so stupid.
7 MR. DANDAR: No, Judge --
8 THE COURT: I don't really care what you think
9 about anybody else.
10 MR. DANDAR: That's not --
11 THE COURT: You think judges are so stupid that
12 they say, "It's not introduced for the truth of the
13 matter asserted."
14 Now in this particular hearing, there's a lot
15 that has been coming in because it isn't introduced
16 for the truth of the matter asserted.
17 MR. DANDAR: All right.
18 THE COURT: This isn't it.
19 MR. DANDAR: All right.
20 THE COURT: Now --
21 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry.
22 THE COURT: Move on.
23 And I know that when you leave here, you'll
24 say, "Wasn't that outrageous?"
25 MR. DANDAR: I have eliminated that word from
125
1 my vocabulary.
2 THE COURT: Then we've accomplished something
3 in these hearings.
4 All right. Continue.
5 MR. DANDAR: I still haven't found a synonym
6 for it yet.
7 BY MR. DANDAR:
8 Q Okay. When's the next time you had any contact
9 with Mr. Minton?
10 A In the summer of 1999, Patricia Greenway and I
11 went over to see Bob and Stacy, and I think one other
12 person. And they were picketing the -- the Sandcastle.
13 Q That's a Scientology property?
14 A That's a Scientology property. The property where
15 I used to go and get my training for the upper OT levels.
16 So I was --
17 THE COURT: Where is that? Is that in
18 Clearwater?
19 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
20 THE COURT: Okay.
21 THE WITNESS: It's a motel. It's right down
22 there by the park that's on the Palisades and the
23 library and that.
24 THE COURT: I'm afraid not very familiar with
25 Clearwater. I know where the courthouse is.
126
1 Continue on.
2 MR. WEINBERG: What -- I didn't hear what he
3 said as to when in '99.
4 THE WITNESS: It was --
5 THE COURT: Summer.
6 MR. WEINBERG: Summer.
7 THE WITNESS: Summer, yeah.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Would it be August of '99 or July --
10 A It was July.
11 And they were picketing Scientology. And they got
12 in a phone conversation with Patricia Greenway, and so we
13 drove over there. And basically, it was Bob walking in
14 front of the Sandcastle. And he had three handlers who were
15 on him, who they nicknamed Spence and Crock. I don't -- I
16 don't remember their real names. That was their nicknames,
17 'cause they would never tell who they were. They were
18 Scientologists.
19 And basically what they were doing was a
20 Scientology process called bull baiting, or you could call
21 it black Dianetics or something like that. Where they were
22 basically attacking Bob verbally.
23 And they were attacking his relationship --
24 THE COURT: What is a handler? Excuse me. I'm
25 trying to think what a handler is.
127
1 THE WITNESS: A handler is somebody who's
2 assigned to -- to you -- when we were out there as
3 critics, we noticed a particular person would pick
4 up and follow us -- one-on-one contact. And that
5 person we described as our handler. And that -- it
6 was that person's job to verbally harass us with
7 this bull baiting technique. And that's what they
8 were doing.
9 THE COURT: Bull what?
10 THE WITNESS: Bull baiting.
11 And bull baiting is used in Scientology on a
12 positive basis. Let's say you have a -- an aversion
13 to apples, and then so somebody will get in front of
14 you and they will bull bait you on that subject.
15 And they will talk all about apples. And they will
16 say how about a nice juicy apple. And they will see
17 if they can basically get you to no longer have a
18 particular fear or aversion, just by the familiarity
19 with it and by running through all the problems you
20 have about it. It's just a verbal contact.
21 But it can be also used to just attack
22 somebody.
23 So if I was going to bull bait you, I'd find
24 something about you that I didn't like, and then I'd
25 just harp on that. I'd go on and on and on and on
128
1 and on about it. I'd get very inventive about it.
2 That was the kind of bull baiting that they
3 were doing with Bob. And they focused on his
4 relationship with Stacy. And they were calling her
5 various names which I will not repeat. And you
6 know, it was pretty outrageous. It was pretty
7 unbelievable.
8 BY MR. DANDAR:
9 Q Watch that word.
10 THE COURT: There's nothing wrong with that
11 word. Just one of the people in this room uses it
12 to excess.
13 THE WITNESS: Okay.
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q So how did Bob Minton react to three people bull
16 baiting him?
17 A I was amazed. He was way cool. He just walked
18 back and forth. And you know, he talked to them. He said,
19 you know, "These are my buddies here, Spence and Crock."
20 Bob -- I guess, you know, he was pretty important, so he got
21 two handlers, Spence and Crock. They would alternate on him
22 and --
23 But he handled it extremely --
24 THE COURT: Are these people, Spence and
25 Crock -- I mean, who is that? Is that --
129
1 THE WITNESS: Those are two -- they're
2 Scientology security staff members.
3 THE COURT: Are those names of people --
4 THE WITNESS: They were just the nicknames we
5 had for them. I never knew their real names.
6 THE COURT: Oh, you all called them Spence and
7 Crock.
8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I didn't know what their
9 real -- they would not reveal their names to us.
10 THE COURT: Okay.
11 THE WITNESS: I think one man's name actually
12 was Phillip, but I don't remember his last name.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q I misspoke. There were only two handlers on Bob?
15 A There were two handlers on Bob, and the third one
16 was for Stacy. And -- however, she was videotaping Bob, and
17 so that person didn't really seem to say too much to her.
18 Q Were the -- the handlers from Scientology -- were
19 they in a conversational mode or were they doing something
20 different?
21 A They would yell at him, they would scream at him.
22 They would say, "Bob, what are your crimes? Bob, what are
23 your crimes?" And then they would say various things about
24 Stacy that, again, I'm not going to repeat.
25 Q That's all right.
130
1 And would Bob yell back or just talk to them or
2 what?
3 A You know, Bob was cool. He would just go, "Well,
4 okay, if that's what you think," you know, or -- he didn't
5 get involved in a big confrontation with them, no.
6 Q What else happened that day?
7 A They came up to me, since I happened to be just
8 standing there watching, and they said, "You. What are your
9 crimes?" So I said, "Well, my crime was I gave you guys a
10 million bucks. And you know what? That's a crime." I
11 remember that.
12 Q All right. Did you have any meetings with Bob, or
13 get-togethers with him after the picketing?
14 A Yeah. We became friends with -- Patricia and I,
15 who are a couple, became friends with Bob and Stacy, who
16 were a couple, and we would just see them socially.
17 Q But in August of '99, do you recall having any
18 get-togethers with Bob at the --
19 A Yes, I did. We -- one particular night, we -- we
20 met them there was -- it was late August of '99. And they
21 were staying at the Windham Harbor Island, and so we met
22 them down there at the lobby.
23 And they were chatting, and they -- you know, they
24 asked us if -- they were thinking of forming this group, and
25 it was going to be a group that was to be located in
131
1 downtown Clearwater. And it would be -- have some office
2 space down there. And the idea would be that if anybody
3 like Lisa McPherson tried to escape from Scientology this
4 would be a safe harbor for them, a place where they could go
5 to. And they wanted to know if Patricia and I would be on
6 the board of this group.
7 Q Did he say anything else about this group?
8 A He said he was forming it up, and that, you know,
9 the purpose of it would be to basically expose the abusive
10 and deceptive practices -- I remember that was Bob's thought
11 from the very beginning. And Stacy talked something about
12 that too.
13 Q Did Bob talk about any Internet postings he saw?
14 A Yeah. At that meeting -- it wasn't really a
15 meeting. It was just friends getting together -- we got
16 into a discussion about mental stability and so on and so
17 forth, that had to do with mental stability of
18 Scientology -- of Scientologists, as a matter of fact. And
19 after that Bob said, "Yeah." You know, "Scientologists
20 posted my medical records on the Internet," you know, and,
21 "It's -- they said I was bipolar, you know. And you know,
22 it really embarrasses me, and so, you know, I stopped taking
23 my medication." And Patricia said, "Well, you shouldn't
24 stop taking your medication."
25 And he -- you know, just because it -- it's
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1 embarrassing; you know, just because they say you're
2 bipolar, so what if you're bipolar? Take your darn
3 medication. And he said, "Well, I can't take both my
4 medication and drink. And you know, I'm just going to stop
5 taking it."
6 Q Did he deny that he was bipolar?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you participate in helping the -- this group
9 that Mr. Minton was forming find office space?
10 A Yes. After that, both Patricia and I helped Stacy
11 Brooks find office space. And they were looking for office
12 space in the bigger office buildings in downtown Clearwater,
13 where I had previously had my office located for the Totally
14 Fun Company. So I knew that area. I knew the real estate
15 agents. So we drove around or we walked around trying to
16 find office space.
17 But we'd go into a building, including the
18 building that I used to have my office in, and there would
19 be floors vacant. 600 Cleveland Street. And you know,
20 Stacy was offering, on Bob's behalf, to pay the rent in
21 advance, and they'd say, "Great. That's cool." But then,
22 like, the next day, they wouldn't want to rent to her. And
23 it happened -- oh, gosh -- one, two, three occasions that I
24 recall.
25 And throughout that time, we were being followed
133
1 by Scientologists. First the little bicycle police they
2 have in downtown Clearwater. Whenever we'd walk from place
3 to place, they'd get on their little walkie-talkies, you
4 know, as we'd walk from one building to the next.
5 Q You're not talking about the Clearwater Police?
6 A No. I'm talking about the Scientology security
7 force.
8 And then if we got in our car, we were followed by
9 the same two guys, sometimes in two cars. I remember one
10 was a tan Ford Taurus and one was a big heavyset guy,
11 reddish hair, crew cut. The other was a thin guy,
12 five-nine, 140, balding. And those are the two guys that I
13 always saw. And they were either together or they were in
14 different cars. And they would follow me from the point
15 that we would get in our car, you know, and they'd follow us
16 all over the place, no matter where we were going.
17 Q How much rent did Stacy offer to pay in advance at
18 these buildings?
19 A It was -- it was something -- I'm not a hundred
20 percent certain -- it was something like a year in advance.
21 Or maybe it was even more than that. I do remember her
22 saying, "We'll pay the rent in advance." And yet each time,
23 you know, even though there was office space available,
24 they'd hear back the next day that they didn't want to rent
25 to any group that might be opposed by Scientology.
134
1 Q Were these people that you were talking to renting
2 this office space members of the Church of Scientology?
3 A No, they were not.
4 I knew the real estate agent, first name is
5 Angel -- she has a -- I don't remember her last name. But I
6 knew her and I knew she was not a Scientologist. She was
7 the lady who represented 600 Cleveland Street.
8 Q So the landlord didn't want to rent to someone --
9 A Angel told me --
10 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Hearsay, your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Sustained.
12 MR. DANDAR: That's fine.
13 BY MR. DANDAR:
14 Q Okay. Did you ever find rental space in downtown
15 Clearwater for Bob and his group?
16 A No. Bob ended up having to buy a building, 33
17 North Ft. Harrison.
18 Q Okay. Now, do you recall having a -- a dinner
19 with Bob Minton --
20 THE COURT: Out of curiosity -- I don't know if
21 you know this or not -- did he buy it in his own
22 name?
23 THE WITNESS: I wasn't at the closing and I
24 didn't see the papers.
25 THE COURT: You don't know.
135
1 THE WITNESS: So I actually don't know.
2 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you.
3 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, what was your question?
5 THE COURT: Did he buy it in his own name?
6 MR. DANDAR: Yes.
7 THE COURT: You've been a witness --
8 MR. DANDAR: I can tell you that --
9 THE COURT: -- so that's all right.
10 MR. DANDAR: -- as an officer of the court.
11 Either way.
12 THE COURT: All right. Thank you.
13 A You asked me about --
14 BY MR. DANDAR:
15 Q Dinner at the Belleview.
16 A Right.
17 That was -- and I remember the date of that,
18 because that was the date of the closing of the purchase of
19 the Lisa McPherson Building at 33 North Ft. Harrison. And
20 so Bob and Stacy invited Patricia and I out in thanks for
21 the fact that -- well, it was really Patricia had helped in
22 the acquisition of that property and finding a lawyer for
23 them and so on. So this was like a thank-you dinner.
24 And we discussed a number of interesting topics.
25 And that was the first time I discussed this -- I guess
136
1 this -- this Lisa McPherson wrongful death suit --
2 Q Do you recall --
3 A -- with --
4 Q -- the date of that dinner?
5 A It was November the 2nd, 1999.
6 Q And did Patricia Greenway have any real estate
7 experience?
8 A Yes. She's a real estate agent, Florida real
9 estate agent.
10 Q So she found the attorney to close on the
11 building?
12 A Yes. That's correct.
13 Q And so you had met Mr. Minton and Stacy Brooks in
14 December of '98. And you're saying that on November 2nd of
15 '99, almost a year later, is the first time you talked about
16 the Lisa McPherson case?
17 A Yeah.
18 I never talked with Bob about that. Just didn't
19 come up.
20 Q How would you describe your relationship on this
21 November 2nd of '99, with Mr. Minton?
22 A We were friends.
23 Q Okay. And even in August of '99?
24 A Yeah. We were -- we would -- you know, it wasn't
25 all about Scientology or anything like that. We would go
137
1 out to dinner. I remember one time when Bob wasn't even
2 there, Stacy invited Patricia and I out, just to have
3 company, somebody to talk to, you know.
4 Q Okay. So what was discussed, then, on
5 November 2nd, '99 at dinner?
6 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. I don't believe
7 Mr. Minton was asked about discussions with
8 Mr. Alexander concerning --
9 THE COURT: I don't know. This may have to do
10 with --
11 MR. WEINBERG: Anyway, my objection is hearsay.
12 THE COURT: I'm going to overrule it for now.
13 Go ahead.
14 A Okay. Well, while we were at dinner, Patricia
15 asked Bob about the case. And she said, "How's the case
16 going?" And Bob said, "I don't really know." And she said,
17 "What you mean, you don't --"
18 THE COURT: Your objection's overruled. That
19 would be appropriate, as far as impeachment.
20 A And so he says -- well, she says -- you know, she
21 was actually like saying, "Well, that's not fair." I mean,
22 I don't remember her exact words, but, "That's not right.
23 You're paying for this thing and you don't get to know about
24 it?"
25 And he says, "Well, I can't know." He said,
138
1 "There's this obscure Florida law --" I remember the --
2 that's how he described it. "There's an obscure Florida
3 law, and it's called directing the case. So I can't have
4 anything to say about it."
5 Now that sounded incredible to me. Now, I don't
6 know all these laws in Florida.
7 So I said, "You mean you're paying for this and
8 you don't even get briefed about it?" He says, "No. I
9 can't."
10 But it didn't seem to bother him, so I thought,
11 "Well, okay." I just dropped it.
12 BY MR. DANDAR:
13 Q How did Patricia react to that?
14 A Well, she was like -- Patricia is -- she gets all
15 wound up about it. And she was actually saying, "Well,
16 that's terrible," you know, and so on and so forth.
17 Q And did Stacy Brooks pipe in or offer any comments
18 about her involvement in the case?
19 A Not at that time, no. I don't recall anything.
20 Q Did she say anything about being a spy for Bob
21 Minton?
22 A No.
23 Q And then there was another vigil just after that,
24 wasn't there, in December of '99?
25 A Yes. There was another vigil and protest in
139
1 December of '99, on the anniversary of Lisa McPherson's
2 death.
3 THE COURT: Would this be a good time to take
4 our lunch break?
5 MR. WEINBERG: Sure.
6 THE COURT: All right. We will be in recess
7 until -- we're going to be in recess till 1:15.
8 (A recess was taken at 11:58 p.m.)
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1
2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE
3
4 STATE OF FLORIDA )
5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS )
6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was
authorized to and did stenographically report the
7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and
complete record of my stenographic notes.
8
I further certify that I am not a relative,
9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am
I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or
10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially
interested in the action.
11
12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 8th day of June,
13 2002.
14
15 ______________________________
DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR
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