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Subject: Judge Schaeffer examination of Stacy Brooks Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Message-ID: Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 10:05:31 -0700 (PDT) Mail-To-News-Contact: abuse@dizum.com Organization: mail2news@dizum.com Lines: 722 Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!wasp.rahul.net!gail.ripco.com!fu-berlin.de!eusc.inter.net!fr.clara.net!heighliner.fr.clara.net!news.tele.dk!small.news.tele.dk!193.162.153.123!news.dizum.com!sewer-output!mail2news Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1538760 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. DATE: May 3, 2002, afternoon session. VOLUME 2 155 1 THE WITNESS: But the agreement that I'm 2 referring to was an agreement that was separate from 3 that loan agreement. 4 THE COURT: Yeah. This was the agreement 5 you're talking about that the -- that the -- 6 THE WITNESS: Bulk. 7 THE COURT: -- bulk -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 9 THE COURT: The bulk of the proceeds -- 10 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 11 THE COURT: -- would go to the -- 12 THE WITNESS: -- LMT. And Mr. Minton was very 13 excited about this and talked about it on the 14 Internet. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Published it. 17 A On the Internet. 18 And also talked about it on a radio show that he 19 was on and -- and this was -- 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY THE COURT: 22 Q How could it be secret if it was on the Internet? 23 A It wasn't secret at that time. 24 Q You put it in your affidavit. 25 A Yeah. And the -- well, I'll get to the secret 156 1 part -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- in just a second. But you know, the people at 4 the LMT knew about it and it was sort of a happy thing. I 5 mean, everybody was very happy about it. 6 Q And everybody who read the Internet knew about it, 7 I guess. 8 A Yeah. For sure, that's true. 9 Q Okay. 10 A And then -- then what happened was Scientology 11 started to interject an argument into the wrongful death 12 case saying that, you know, this was all a business deal; 13 Minton was going to benefit from this case; this was -- you 14 know, he was -- you know, doing all these things for 15 business reasons. And Mr. Dandar got, you know, really 16 upset that Scientology was doing this. You know, we had a 17 couple of conversations in which I said to him, Mr. Dandar, 18 there's nothing wrong with the bulk of the proceeds going to 19 the Lisa McPherson Trust. And you know, so what if 20 Scientology says that about it? 21 But Mr. Dandar was -- 22 THE COURT: Sounds like me, doesn't it? Isn't 23 that what I said? 24 Okay. Sorry. 25 A Yeah. 157 1 But Mr. Dandar was really concerned about it. You 2 know, the Scientology attorneys were really turning this 3 into a major issue. And so Mr. Dandar told us that we were 4 going to have to stop talking about this agreement about the 5 bulk of the proceeds. And -- and then -- 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q And when did that occur? 8 A When he said that? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A In the fall. It started to be, you know, don't 11 talk about that, don't talk about that, in the -- in the 12 fall of 2000. 13 Q Okay. 14 A As I recall. Maybe late summer. Whenever the -- 15 you know, you'd be able to tell by the record of the case 16 because whenever that thing started happening where they 17 were accusing Minton of investing in the lawsuit, you know, 18 that whole thing. 19 I think it was late summer or fall of 2000. And 20 then it -- December, 2000 is when the secret agreement 21 became a real serious issue because that was when Mr. Minton 22 signed the false affidavit about it. And he felt extremely 23 uncomfortable about it because -- and I actually encouraged 24 him to feel extremely uncomfortable about it, because it 25 seemed to me that if he was putting in writing and swearing 158 1 to the fact that there was no agreement, well, then -- then 2 there wasn't going to be any bulk of the proceeds going to 3 anything. And you know, he spoke to Mr. Dandar about this, 4 and Mr. Dandar said -- 5 MR. LIROT: Objection. We don't know if she 6 was anywhere near these conversations. 7 THE WITNESS: I was. I was there. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Whenever I talk about 10 one of these conversations, I mean 'cause I was 11 there. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know -- and he talked to me about it quite a 15 bit, Mr. Minton did. Because I was saying, you know, "Don't 16 do this. It's not a good idea." 17 But he spoke to Mr. Dandar about it; Mr. Dandar 18 said, "Look, you know, the agreement still exists. It's 19 just that we can't talk about it and we can't -- you know, 20 it -- we've got to get away from this in the case because 21 they're really trying to use this as a way to, you know, 22 derail the case, so --" or whatever. 23 And so, you know, of course, that's what's going 24 to happen when the -- when the -- when we get a judgment. 25 But we have to say that it's not. 159 1 Q If we just file a bunch of false affidavits, we 2 won't derail the case. 3 A Well, you see, your Honor, that's a good point you 4 bring up, because -- right. 5 Q I'm sorry. I just kind of interjected myself, and 6 I didn't need to do that. 7 A Well -- 8 Q I'm sorry. 9 A That's how I feel about it too. It's -- 10 subsequently, I lied about this in a deposition; Mr. Minton 11 lied about this in a deposition. 12 Q About this -- 13 A About the fact that -- 14 Q The bulk of the proceeds were going -- 15 A Right. 16 Q -- to be -- 17 A That was asked -- that was specifically asked, I 18 think it was by Mr. Moxon, I think. You know, I -- and 19 first he asked me about it and I tried to get around it by 20 distracting him in another direction, but you know, that 21 didn't work. And so then he asked me again, you know, "Is 22 there an agreement for the bulk of the proceeds?" And I 23 said, "No." Well, you know, I was lying. And Mr. Minton 24 started lying about it. And -- 25 Q Why, for heaven sakes? 160 1 A Well -- 2 Q You had already said -- you said what's the big 3 deal? It's okay. 4 A I know, but Mr. Dandar felt very, very strongly 5 that it was important that we do this. And -- 6 Q Did he ever say why? Other than they were just 7 making a big deal about it and -- 8 A Because they -- because -- 9 Q It was derailing the case? 10 A Yeah. Because Scientology was using this 11 agreement to turn the case into a case about Mr. Minton and 12 not about Lisa McPherson. That was basically the -- the way 13 that he spoke about it. Scientology was turning it into a 14 case about Mr. Minton and not about Lisa McPherson. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And so the only way to get the attention off of 17 Mr. Minton was to say that there was no agreement. 18 Now, you can imagine this was a little difficult 19 to do after he'd gone on the radio and posted things on the 20 Internet saying that there was. And of course, Mr. Moxon 21 was bringing these things out at his deposition and saying, 22 "There's no agreement? Well, then why did you say there was 23 an agreement?" You know, it was -- it was -- it was just so 24 obvious. You know, it was just so obvious. 25 But -- 161 1 Q Well, you knew that -- you knew -- you've been in 2 this Church of Scientology. You knew they had fine lawyers. 3 A The best -- 4 Q And you knew that they absolutely would have known 5 what was out on the Internet said by Mr. Minton. 6 A In a heartbeat. 7 Q And surely, surely, you knew therefore there would 8 be a deposition where Mr. Minton would be asked about, 9 "Well, look here what you said." Did you talk to him about 10 this? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q Did you say, "We're crazy to do this"? 13 A Yes, your Honor, I certainly said that. 14 Q Did you tell Mr. Dandar, "I can't believe you're 15 asking us to do such a stupid thing"? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And what did he say? What did -- 18 A Well -- 19 Q -- Mr. Dandar say? 20 A In fact -- in fact, I had, even before that 21 started, to say to Mr. Minton, "Stop funding this case, we 22 need to get away from it as far as we can." And to 23 Mr. Dandar, you know, "You cannot keep asking Mr. Minton -- 24 especially him -- to lie. You know, he's getting in worse 25 and worse and worse trouble. And you know, don't keep 162 1 asking him for money because all it's doing is getting him 2 into more and more and more depositions where he's having to 3 lie more and more." 4 Q What did he say? 5 A "Stop asking him for money." 6 Q What did Mr. Dandar say? 7 A He went like this. 8 Q That same -- 9 A The same thing. 10 MR. FUGATE: The gesture, for the record? 11 THE WITNESS: It was a gesture. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q But he didn't say anything? 14 A He said, "That's up to Bob." 15 You know, this whole thing came up that -- then it 16 came about that Mr. Dandar and his group of people were 17 feeling that I was manipulating Mr. Minton and that I was, 18 you know, having some sort of sinister influence over him, 19 for reasons which I -- have never really been clear to me. 20 But there was this whole thing and, you know, that I was 21 doing something really bad to be trying to get Mr. Minton to 22 stop his funding of the case and to stop this -- you know, I 23 don't think that other people were aware of the fact that 24 this perjury was going on, because I certainly wasn't saying 25 a word about it to anybody else except for Mr. Minton and 163 1 Mr. Dandar. And -- but there was a -- there was a 2 deposition on August 15th, 1999 -- no, I'm sorry -- 2000 -- 3 was it '99 or 2000? Just a minute. I'll tell you. 4 FROM THE GALLERY: 2001. 5 A August, 2001. Sorry. 6 THE COURT: Who -- who in the world is giving 7 her answers back there? Please. 8 A On August 15th, 2001. Okay. So that was after. 9 So I'm sorry. I was mixed up. 10 I'll go back to the December, 2000 time. 11 Mr. Dandar had -- 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. Let -- I've written down a wrong date here 14 now. 15 A Yeah. Forget the August 15th. I'll get to that 16 in a minute. 17 Q Okay. So what are we going back to? 18 A We're going back to December, 2000. 19 Q 12-2000. I got you. 20 A That was when Bob signed the affidavit that said 21 there was no agreement. I believe that was the same time as 22 Liebreich signed an affidavit that there was no agreement. 23 And I think it was shortly after that that Mr. Dandar filed 24 a motion attacking those two pleadings -- I mean, those two 25 affidavits, asserting that there was no agreement. 164 1 Well, you know, I was starting to feel like 2 Mr. Minton was getting set up to be royally shafted. 3 Q Good choice of words. I had another one. I was 4 waiting to see if you could find -- 5 A I was thinking of something else. 6 Q I'll bet you were. 7 A I began to feel that way very strongly. And you 8 know, Mr. Minton felt very strongly about this cause, 9 that -- about being against Scientology. He felt very, very 10 strongly about it. And he was providing funding -- 11 Q I'm sorry. I was coughing. He was what? 12 A He was providing funding to Mr. Dandar without 13 asking for any accounting of what was being done with the 14 money; despite the fact that he was being put into grave 15 legal danger by doing so. And I began to feel that he was 16 being sold down the river. And -- 17 Q This was -- are we back now to this 12-2000 thing? 18 A We're moving a little further from there. 19 Q After -- 20 A We're moving into the future -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- from December, 2000. 23 Q What was it that happened in December, 2000? What 24 was the point of that date? 25 A He signed that false affidavit. 165 1 Q Oh, okay. 2 A And then -- okay, this is into -- now we're -- now 3 we're moving into 2001. Now things are falling apart to 4 such a degree that it's a nightmare. Because now 5 Scientology has started to, you know, depose me and demand 6 documents out of the Lisa McPherson Trust because 7 Scientology has now made the connection between the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust, all the witnesses that are, you know, being 9 paid at the Lisa McPherson Trust, all the people that are on 10 the advisory border -- I mean, that's basically -- 11 Mr. Minton had gathered up all of his Scientology critics 12 that he was helping in one way or another in litigation 13 against Scientology or in whatever other capacity he was 14 funding them, and it was all under the umbrella of the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust. You know, the witnesses for the Lisa 16 McPherson case worked for the Lisa McPherson Trust. 17 And you know, the two things had just -- well, you 18 know, Judge Beach, one day in a deposition, I almost had a 19 heart attack, he -- you know, we're trying so hard to keep 20 these things apart -- and Judge Beach says, you know, 21 "There's no --" this is Mr. Minton's depo that I was in -- 22 he said, "There's no difference between Mr. Minton and the 23 LMT, the Lisa McPherson case -- it's all the same." 24 And so now they started to be able to -- they 25 started making document demands at the LMT and -- 166 1 Q They being Scientology? 2 A Scientology. And I started evading discovery and 3 lying about our records, and -- 4 Q Why? 5 A -- and at that point -- 6 Q I mean, why? 7 A Why? 8 Q Why were you lying about your records? I mean, 9 was there anything -- 10 A Because I'll tell you why. 11 Q -- was there anything illegal about LMT? 12 A You know what? I wasn't sure if there was 13 anything in those records that could hurt the case or not. 14 And if there was any possibility that it would hurt the 15 case, we had to not give it to them. And so -- and you 16 know, Mr. Minton was doing everything possible to protect 17 the case; Mr. Dandar was doing everything possible to 18 protect the case; and -- and then I was doing everything 19 possible to protect the case; you know, not turning over, 20 you know -- you've seen all the stuff in the affidavit, you 21 know, the unedited videotape, the hard drives -- you know, I 22 had these hard drives -- well, Mr. Minton and I both -- got 23 these hard drives removed, you know, about a half an hour 24 before the judge ordered that these -- maybe it was you -- 25 Q I don't think it was because I don't remember 167 1 doing that. 2 A Maybe it was Judge Quesada. But in any case, you 3 know, about half an hour before the judge ordered that 4 nothing could be taken out of the LMT, we're getting the 5 hard drives out of the computers and shipping them off. I 6 mean, you know -- 7 Q But why? I guess I just -- I'm just beside myself 8 trying to figure out why? Was there something illegal about 9 LMT? And I'm talking now about was it doing drugs, was it 10 doing some criminal activity, was there something wrong with 11 it? 12 A No, your Honor. 13 Q It was set up to -- to -- to be what? An 14 anti-Scientology organization? 15 A It was set up to expose the deceptive and abusive 16 processes of Scientology. 17 Q Okay. And then -- so there was nothing illegal 18 about that. 19 A No. 20 Q I mean, that's free speech. It was set up as a 21 for-profit organization, as I remember. If there was an 22 agreement, if there was an agreement that said that, golly, 23 if the aunts of Lisa McPherson got a bundle of money, 24 they'll contribute to this group so that they would have 25 some money, there isn't anything illegal about that, that 168 1 you knew of? 2 A Right. 3 Q Well, then what in the -- what in the hell were 4 you hiding stuff for? 5 A Because Mr. Dandar was so adamant about not 6 letting Scientology delve into the connection between the 7 LMT and the case. He was so adamant about -- 8 Q Well, you're a smart woman. 9 A Yeah. Well -- 10 Q You sit here today, and I'm listening to you and 11 you're as bright as you can be. You're a smart, bright 12 woman. If he had said that to you, didn't you ever say, 13 "We're crazy and we're not going to lie and put ourselves in 14 jeopardy for your crazy thoughts? I'm not going to do it 15 and Bob's not going to do it." I mean, you know, it's hard 16 for me to envision, ma'am, why you'd lie, destroy things 17 about an entity that's legal. 18 And you must understand that this is 19 extraordinarily frustrating for a court. Why you'd lie 20 about an entity that's, as far as I know, legal, about money 21 that might be coming to it which is legal. I don't know any 22 reason in the world why a smart person like you -- and I 23 have to guess Mr. Minton's a smart man -- would lie, destroy 24 stuff, subject yourself to the -- to the wrath of the court, 25 for what? Mr. Dandar and his -- his supposition that this 169 1 was going to hurt the case? 2 A Yes, your Honor. 3 Q You believed him? 4 A No. You see, you have to understand. It goes 5 back to the thing that I was telling you about before, which 6 is the state of mind of the fraternity of critics; that, you 7 know -- 8 Q Who -- who is in that fraternity? I mean, the 9 ones that I know of that are connected with this case. 10 Jesse Prince? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q You? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q Your ex-husband? 15 A Yeah. Lots of other people. The people -- the 16 people that are named in paragraph -- let me see. 17 Q Can you include Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and 18 Mr. Garko in that, Scientology critics? 19 A Mr. Minton. 20 Q The fraternity? 21 A Mr. Minton. 22 Q Okay. 23 A On paragraph 18. 24 Q Okay. 25 A There's a bunch of people named in there. There's 170 1 some others that are in the courtroom right now. You know, 2 and these people could feel that right now what I'm doing 3 right now is so treasonous; you know, they are so mad at me 4 for getting up here and telling the truth about this stuff, 5 I can't even begin to tell you. 6 Q Who are they? 7 A Because I have sold out the Lisa McPherson case; I 8 have sold out Ken Dandar, who is the hero of the critic 9 community, because he's the attorney for the Lisa McPherson 10 case. And -- and that is the perspective that this group of 11 people has. We were part of this group of people. And the 12 idea that I would sit there in front of Kendrick Moxon, you 13 know, who is the enemy, and -- and give him our documents 14 out of the Lisa McPherson Trust or that -- you know, that we 15 would actually tell him the truth about what we were 16 doing -- it just wasn't an option. 17 I mean, it just -- it was -- you know, we were 18 part of a very, very, very tightknit group of people with a 19 very, very strong purpose: To destroy Scientology. And it 20 was -- it was a cause. It was a cause. And you know, 21 Mr. Dandar took advantage of that, I feel. And -- and put 22 Mr. -- Mr. Minton and me in a position where we were 23 basically being held hostage to this case. Because he knew 24 we had lied in deposition; he knew that these things had 25 happened. I was begging him to stop asking Mr. Minton for 171 1 any more money. I was begging him to -- to let us go. He 2 wouldn't do it. Finally in -- finally in August, 2001 -- 3 Q Why didn't you go back to New Hampshire, wherever 4 Mr. Minton is, and say, "See ya, sayonara, bye." 5 A Why didn't he do that? 6 Q Yeah. Why didn't you both do that. 7 A Well, I -- okay. So now, starting August 15th, 8 2001 was when this nightmare started to get really bad for 9 me. Because there was a deposition -- 10 Q Now we're up to August, 2001 -- 11 A Now we're almost done. There was a deposition of 12 me, and it was in Tampa, and I think Mr. Moxon was the 13 attorney. He usually was. And Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 14 Dr. Garko were also in this deposition. And Judge Beach was 15 in the deposition. And this was -- and I had been 16 ordered -- subpoenaed to bring all kind of records. And I 17 appeared in this and I walked into this deposition and I 18 didn't bring anything. I don't think I brought -- maybe I 19 brought some -- you know, something, but nothing substantive 20 at all. And -- 21 Judge Beach sat there in that deposition and told 22 me that if he ordered me to turn over documents and I didn't 23 do it, he was going to put me in jail. 24 Well, I went to the moon. I was so scared. 25 'Cause, you know, it really finally hit me, you know, what 172 1 kind of -- what kind of situation that we were really 2 putting ourselves in. You know, we were about to go to jail 3 for this case. And -- and even if we did go to jail for the 4 case, it wasn't going to save the case, because it was 5 already so off the rails with all of this stuff that was 6 going on. 7 Q Did you ever, in your smartest -- I mean, as I 8 said, I look at you and I look at you as a -- as a bright 9 woman who is very articulate, who -- who I don't know what 10 your level of education, but you certainly sound like -- did 11 it ever occur to you that once you said -- took the tack 12 that you're taking now, which is boy, this is a bunch of 13 lies, that somebody like me might not be most upset? 14 A You know, your Honor -- 15 Q Or did you think that I'd say, "Well, finally 16 we're all getting to the truth of this" and I'd just be 17 happy as a clam? I mean, did you ever think -- 18 A I thought -- I'll tell you what I thought. I 19 thought that I was in a very, very untenable position. 20 Because now I was faced with a choice. Either I could start 21 telling the truth -- and in my mind, that was going to 22 derail the case. Mr. Dandar was telling Mr. Minton at every 23 opportunity that it would derail the case. Don't tell them 24 about those checks. Don't tell them about the secret 25 agreement. You know, so -- so either we could tell the 173 1 truth and derail this thing, which was, you know, considered 2 by the critic community to be -- to be the symbol of, you 3 know, truth and justice for Lisa McPherson and against 4 Scientology. 5 And you know -- and you know, by now I was feeling 6 very differently about it. But Mr. Minton was still feeling 7 that way. 8 And -- and so either we could start telling the 9 truth and derail the case or we could go to jail. And from 10 August 15th forward, that's the way I started seeing it. 11 And so I went up to New Hampshire after that 12 deposition, and I asked Mr. Minton if I could please call 13 Dell Liebreich and tell her what was going on. 14 Q When was this, ma'am? 15 A This was later in August. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I think. 18 Q 2001? 19 A 2001. It was after that deposition, because I was 20 so freaked out. 21 And you know, I said, There is no way Dell 22 Liebreich knows that this is going on. If she knew this was 23 going on, she would never allow it to happen. She will drop 24 this case. Because you know, the only way we could get out 25 of it was for -- for the case to get dropped. Otherwise, 174 1 you know, we were going to go to jail, or the case was going 2 to get derailed and be a mess, or -- you know, the only way 3 it could -- could end cleanly would be to drop it, you know. 4 And so Bob said, you know, "Shoot, they won't drop 5 it," you know, whatever. I said, you know, "You got to let 6 me try." 7 Well, you know, it -- Bob -- Mr. Minton's attitude 8 was, "She already knows everything that's going on and she's 9 not going to drop the case to save me or you." 10 Well, I called her and -- 11 And I had discussed this earlier with Jesse Prince 12 and Teresa Summers, who were -- was another woman who used 13 to work at the LMT. And I told her -- 14 Q "Discussed this." We're talking about -- 15 A The idea of calling Dell -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- and asking her to do this. 18 And -- but in any case, so I called her and -- and 19 I asked her if we could meet. I asked -- actually, I -- I 20 believe I asked her if I could fly to Texas to talk to her. 21 And she said, "Well, will Ken be there?" And I said, "Well, 22 I'd really prefer to talk to you alone." And she said, 23 "Well, okay. Come on then." Or something like that. 24 Q When was this call, do you remember? 25 A This was later in August of 2001. 175 1 Q After -- sometime in August, but after your 2 deposition? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And then she called me back. I mean, you know, I 6 was so nervous doing this. This was like -- this was so -- 7 I mean, for the critic community, for me to call Dell 8 Liebreich and ask her to drop the wrongful death case was 9 the most horrific thing I could possibly do. And so I was 10 very nervous about this. But I felt like we had to do it, 11 because I was -- you know, by this time I had had many, 12 many, many conversations with Mr. Dandar in which I had told 13 him that it was a terrible thing, what he was doing; that he 14 was continuing this thing at -- at the risk -- and putting 15 Mr. Minton at such a risk. 16 Q Did you ask him to call Ms. Liebreich and drop the 17 case? Did you ask him to drop the case? 18 A Yes. I had talked to him about it. And he 19 said -- you know, "This is -- this is a just and noble thing 20 that we're doing, and this has to continue forward. We have 21 to get justice for Lisa McPherson." And you know, all this 22 pious thing, that, by then, I didn't feel had anything 23 whatsoever to do with his motivation in this case. 24 So I called her and I asked her this. And you 25 know, this was a fairly major threshold that I'd crossed in 176 1 this whole process. Because at that point, I became 2 deliberately and consciously against this lawsuit. And -- 3 and then she called back and said, "No, no, no. We can't do 4 it. I talked to Ken and, you know, he doesn't want me to 5 talk to you and I don't want to talk to you." And -- and, 6 you know, she was very distraught. 7 Q You didn't ask her to drop -- you had just asked 8 to meet with her alone -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- and she said she could not do that. 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Right. 14 Q Did you tell her why you wanted to meet with her? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I didn't. But later I had a conversation with Ken 18 Dandar, which was that -- you know, "I knew you wanted to 19 talk to her about dropping the case, and I told her not to 20 talk to you about that." And, you know, let me tell you, 21 she knows everything that's going on in this case and -- 22 Q But you're past where we need to go. That's for 23 another time, for another question. 24 A Okay. Sorry. 25 Okay. So then when that happened, then I said, 177 1 you know, these people -- I mean, Mr. Dandar and 2 Ms. Liebreich do not care what happens to Bob Minton or me. 3 And -- and -- and I said that to Bob Minton. And I said, 4 "You have got -- we have got to distance ourself from this 5 case in every possible way. I've got to tell Jesse to 6 withdraw as an expert witness; you have got to stop giving 7 him any more money. I'm withdrawing as a witness. We have 8 to -- we have to withdraw in every way we possibly can to -- 9 so that the court will stop letting Scientology depose us 10 and get discovery of us." 11 And so -- and so Mr. Minton and I called Jesse 12 Prince and told him that he had to withdraw as an expert 13 witness immediately. That day. And he did. 14 Q This was the same day as you made the phone call 15 to Ms. Liebreich? 16 A The next day. The next day, because I called her 17 at night. And then Mr. Minton and I talked about this into 18 the night, trying to figure out what to do. 19 And it -- you know, it still wasn't an option that 20 we were going to come in to court and start recanting. It 21 just wasn't. 22 It just wasn't. 23 We were going to try to distance ourselves from it 24 so that we could get protection so that it could move 25 forward without hurting us. 178 1 And so then -- 2 THE COURT: Feel free to step into the 3 question, if you want, but it seems like she's 4 giving a narrative that goes to the issue, so -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Better than I asking questions, 6 your Honor. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Okay. 9 A So then Mr. Dandar decided to file a motion for 10 severe sanctions against Scientology for -- because his 11 expert witnesses had had to withdraw, because he was in such 12 fear of Scientology. 13 Well, so then he has Mr. Prince -- he -- he draws 14 up an affidavit from Mr. Prince which basically summarizes 15 his trial that he had just -- the criminal trial that 16 Mr. Prince had just gone through for drugs. And basically 17 Mr. Dandar did a motion that, you know, described that whole 18 thing and that Scientology was setting up as expert. And so 19 because of that Mr. Prince withdrew in fear of more 20 harassment, stuff like that. 21 Well, Mr. Prince withdrew because Mr. Minton and I 22 told him to. 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. This is all -- she's 24 not competent for anything why Mr. Prince withdrew. 25 THE COURT: Well, she's competent to say what 179 1 she told Mr. Prince, and then we'll hear from 2 Mr. Prince, I guess. 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q What did you tell Mr. Prince as far as -- 5 A I said, "Jesse, you've got to withdraw it, you've 6 got to resign from this case immediately. You know, you've 7 got to write a letter to Ken telling him that you're 8 withdrawing as an expert witness right away." Well, you 9 know -- okay -- 10 Q And then you said that this affidavit -- did you 11 see the affidavit -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- that Mr. Prince signed? 14 A After he signed it, he brought it in and showed it 15 to me and -- 16 Q When was that? And where? 17 A In my office in the LMT -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A You know, it must have been in September. Because 20 all of these things happened in pretty rapid succession by 21 now. 22 And -- I can't remember what else I was going to 23 say about that, but in any case -- 24 THE COURT: You can stop if you want and you 25 can go on to whatever question you want. 180 1 The -- I don't want the record to suggest that 2 this witness knows what the motion for severe 3 sanctions is all about. Quite frankly, that's not 4 how I read the motion for severe sanctions. 5 It was because of what Mr. Dandar alleged was 6 wrongdoing on the part of the church as it pertained 7 to Mr. Prince. And my -- my order, which has yet to 8 be signed, that -- because we can't seem to agree on 9 the order because I was, quite frankly, trying to 10 make it fairly to keep the peace -- was because I 11 had found that the church had -- had acted 12 improperly in that criminal episode against 13 Mr. Prince. That's the order regarding severe 14 sanctions that I mean to sign when I can get around 15 it to. 16 That was what they said. As far as Mr. Prince 17 and his -- his reason for not being a witness, I 18 never bought it. Didn't buy it at that hearing, 19 don't buy it to this day. I think that if 20 Mr. Dandar wants to use Mr. Prince as a witness in 21 this case, he'll testify gladly. 22 I've said it before, I'll say it again: If 23 he -- if he can stand the baggage when this case 24 goes to trial -- by that I mean the lawyer -- 25 whoever the lawyer might be for the case, well, I 181 1 believe, Mr. Prince will be here with bells on. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the significance of it is, 3 as far as I'm concerned, not direct -- 4 THE COURT: That's not important. It certainly 5 isn't important in front of this witness. You can 6 tell me at the close of the case. 7 I just didn't want the record to suggest that 8 whatever this witness thinks about anything is 9 necessarily what it was or what was presented to 10 this court. She wasn't here. She doesn't know. 11 She doesn't know what argument was made. She 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed)