||||| From: ptsc Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Why the attacks on Haney? Testimony of Brian Haney June 19, 2002 Afternoon Session Date: Sat, 16 Nov 2002 20:28:56 -0500 Organization: Busts Your Rips! Message-ID: X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.91/32.564 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Complaints-To: abuse@supernews.com Lines: 5704 Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!wasp.rahul.net!gail.ripco.com!fu-berlin.de!news.belwue.de!newsfeed01.sul.t-online.de!t-online.de!newspeer1-gui.server.ntli.net!ntli.net!sn-xit-05!sn-xit-06!sn-post-01!supernews.com!corp.supernews.com!not-for-mail Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1570949 137 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 2 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 CONTENTS: Testimony of Brian Haney. 18 (Cross-Examination) 19 DATE: June 19, 2002. Afternoon Session. 20 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida. 21 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, 22 Circuit Judge. 23 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. Deputy Official Court Reporter, 24 Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 138 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 12 Organization. 13 MR. LEE FUGATE 14 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 15 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 17 18 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 19 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 22 MR. RICHARD D. ROGOVIN Bricker & Eckler, LLP 23 100 South Third Street Columbus, Ohio 43215-4291 24 Attorney for Hugh Brian Haney. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 139 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 3 MR. ROBERT J. HEALY, JR. Fowler, White, Boggs & Banker 4 501 First Avenue North Suite 900 5 St. Petersburg, Florida 33701 Attorney for Digital Lightwave. 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 140 1 THE COURT: You may be seated. 2 All right. You may inquire. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Thank you. 4 CROSS-EXAMINATION 5 BY MR. WEINBERG: 6 Q Good afternoon, Mr. Haney. 7 You say -- I heard you say that you are not an 8 anti-Scientologist, just a Scientology critic. Is that what 9 you said? 10 A That would be correct. 11 Q All right. Now, eventually, am I right, that you 12 disassociated yourself from the Lisa McPherson Trust because 13 they -- their actions or purpose was to harass Scientology, 14 that is essentially what they started doing? Is that what 15 you said? 16 A Most of the activities were dictated by Bob. And 17 they were mostly to harass Scientology, yes. 18 Q Now, Mr. Minton was an anti-Scientologist, wasn't 19 he? 20 A I -- I don't know how he considers himself. 21 Q Well, how did you consider him when you saw him in 22 action at the Lisa McPherson Trust, and then the contact you 23 had with him over the Internet and in person? How did you 24 consider him? He was somebody that had -- had a very strong 25 dislike for Scientology, didn't he? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 141 1 A I thought of it a little differently than that. I 2 thought of him as somebody who wanted to be in the 3 spotlight. So I didn't, you know, look at it maybe the same 4 way you do. But that is the way he got himself in the 5 spotlight. 6 Q Stacy Brooks, at the LMT, she was an 7 anti-Scientologist, wasn't she? 8 A Actually, Stacy usually was telling him not to do 9 the things that he did, but he didn't listen to her, either, 10 at least during the time I was present. 11 Q Now, Jesse Prince, you had association with him, 12 didn't you? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And you considered him to be an 15 anti-Scientologist, didn't you? 16 A Mmm, Jesse almost never wanted to do the things 17 like picketing. He did a couple times at the beginning. I 18 think he disliked it and he didn't want to. 19 But Bob made it pretty much a requirement of 20 working there that, you know, you had to accompany him on 21 these things. I would say it was considered disloyal if you 22 didn't participate. 23 Q So it's fair to say that Jesse went kicking and 24 screaming to these pickets but he didn't really want to go? 25 A Well, at the beginning he went to a few of them, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 142 1 would say, gleefully, and I would say after that, Mmm, you 2 know, very quickly it soured in his mouth, so to speak. 3 Q Well, and you were at these pickets? 4 A No. 5 Q But you just heard about them? 6 A I heard about them and sometimes saw videos of 7 them, yeah. 8 Q Mr. Bunker's videos of them? 9 A Yes. 10 Q So did you see the videos where Mr. Minton and 11 Mr. Prince and others at the LMT shouted obscenities at the 12 Church? 13 A I saw -- I saw a video when they were in Boston 14 where the two of them and the one fellow -- kind of short 15 fellow -- Mmm, had a very, you know, bad altercation in 16 front of the Boston org. I remember that one. 17 Q Well, you went on the -- on the Internet and would 18 go to the ARS site, alt.religion.scientology site. You did 19 that, didn't you? 20 A I viewed it, yes. 21 Q And you would consider that to be an 22 anti-Scientology site, wouldn't you? 23 A Well, if you tell me what you mean by 24 anti-Scientology, I will be happy to make that more concise. 25 Q Well, it's fair to say that the people that visit Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 143 1 that site, the great vast majority of them say very nasty 2 things, often obscene things, about the Church of 3 Scientology, David Miscavige, and others involved in 4 Scientology, right? 5 A I would say that there is a very vocal, very small 6 minority, that do exactly what you are saying, yes. 7 Q And that vocal, small minority included people 8 like Bob Minton, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Jesse Prince? 11 A Mmm, some. Not nearly so much. Yeah. 12 Q Stacy Brooks? 13 A No. She -- she didn't -- I don't remember her 14 ever using foul language. 15 Q Now, Grady Ward? I mean, he was one of your 16 fellow board members or advisory committee members at the 17 LMT. You saw some of his stuff on ARS, didn't you? 18 A I saw Grady Ward's things that you're talking 19 about. And then, as I recall, he just stopped. 20 Q Right. And those were -- were beyond obscene, 21 correct? Those were grotesque? 22 A Yes, I would never -- I didn't read them after the 23 first couple, so ... 24 Q Now, you would consider him a critic of 25 Scientology like yourself? That is, Grady Ward? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 144 1 A I don't think I can call him -- people have 2 different purposes. My purpose is the only one I can really 3 speak to. 4 Q Well, the other folks that were at the LMT that 5 were on the board that you were on, on the advisory 6 committee, you know, when this got started, Jeff Jacobsen 7 was a critic of Scientology? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Rod Keller? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Critic? 12 Gerry Armstrong? 13 A Mmm -- 14 Q Critic? 15 A I don't think he was on either of those things. 16 But you might know better. 17 Q Frank Oliver? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Critic, right? 20 A Uh-huh. 21 Q Larry Wollersheim? 22 A He was not active in those things. He was off by 23 himself. 24 Q Now, you would consider some of the things that 25 you saw posted by folks like some of the critics that we Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 145 1 just talked about on ARS to be religious bigotry, wouldn't 2 you, posted against the Church of Scientology? That is what 3 it is, isn't it? 4 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Outside of the scope. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. 6 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. 8 A I think that people had strong opinions about 9 Scientology's behavior. And sometimes they expressed those 10 in ways that I wouldn't, but I think each person is entitled 11 to their own opinion. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Well, did you approve of the obscene statements 14 that Mr. Prince made in front of the Ft. Harrison Hotel 15 about David Miscavige? 16 A I didn't see that. 17 Q Did you approve of the obscene statements that 18 Mr. Minton made in front of Church buildings? Is that 19 something that you believed -- believe is -- is appropriate 20 conduct? 21 A The one tape that I saw in Boston, that fellow, 22 Frank Ofman or whatever his name is, Bob and Jesse were 23 walking back and forth -- trying to just walk back and 24 forth, and he stayed in their face so close that I'm sure 25 his spittle was on their face. And finally at some point Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 146 1 they all ended up screaming filthy language at each other. 2 Yes, that did happen. 3 Q What did you mean when you said that Jesse Prince 4 didn't want to picket? 5 A I didn't say that. I said, to me, I think he lost 6 his taste for it because of that incident, and maybe one 7 other like it. 8 Then, after that, I think he did it strictly 9 because Bob wanted him to. And it was -- you know, it was 10 basically a requirement of the job, I think. 11 Q So when you say the job, Bob Minton was paying 12 Jesse Prince to do whatever Bob Minton wanted Jesse Prince 13 to do? Was that your understanding? 14 A No. My understanding was that there were a group 15 of people, six or eight people, who worked at the Lisa 16 McPherson Trust. And each time Bob went to picket, he would 17 ask them to picket. And if they didn't want to go, I saw 18 the way he behaved toward them. And it's my impression that 19 he considered it disloyal for them not to go picket when he 20 wanted them to. 21 Q I thought you lived in Columbus, Ohio? 22 A I do. 23 Q So how frequently were you in Clearwater? 24 A Mmm, maybe one year, four times. Another year, 25 three times. Something like that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 147 1 Q So this experience that you're talking about, 2 about your observations concerning Jesse Prince and Bob 3 Minton, this would be a handful of experiences because you 4 weren't down here on a daily basis, or weekly basis, or even 5 a monthly basis, correct? 6 A It would be that small number in Clearwater, yes. 7 Q Now, when did you become a critic of Scientology, 8 as you use that term? 9 A Mmm, I got on the Internet in, I think, August of 10 '96. And I spent quite a lot of time, between August, 11 September, October, reading on the Internet. And I would 12 say by October I knew enough about what was going on that I 13 would consider myself a critic. 14 Q Well, you left the staff. And you left being a 15 public member of Scientology when? 16 A In February of '94. 17 Q So from February of '94 when you left, until what 18 you just said, August of '96, you were not a critic of 19 Scientology? 20 A Yes, I didn't do anything. I didn't -- you know, 21 I didn't do anything in relation to Scientology during that 22 time. 23 Q Well, what do you mean by critic? 24 A I mean someone who believes that there are things 25 about Scientology and its actions in society that ought to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 148 1 either be reformed or stopped, and that someone would have a 2 moral obligation to bring those things to the attention of 3 parties who could do something about it. 4 And also the aspect of helping people, helping 5 people who have lost their money, their homes, their 6 familial relationships, through their association with 7 Scientology, help them to get help through rehab centers, 8 through counseling, through churches. 9 Q And you learned this -- this information that led 10 you to be a critic from going on the Internet in August 11 of -- August, September and October of 1996? 12 A I would say not exclusively, but, yes, the vast 13 majority of what I learned, I learned from reading it on the 14 Internet. 15 Q And what site or sites did you visit on the 16 Internet, Mr. Haney? 17 A Mmm, I wasn't conversant with the Internet back 18 then. I just got started. So I don't know all of the 19 different places that I went. But certainly -- 20 Q List one. 21 A Xenu.net, which they call Operation Clambake. I 22 know that was one. 23 Q Operation Clambake. How about ARS, 24 alt.religion.scientology? 25 A That is just a newsgroup. They have messages Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 149 1 there. And I started reading messages at some point, but I 2 don't know when it was. 3 Q How did you find out about Operation Clambake or 4 whatever the site? 5 A It was referred to on one of the places I went. I 6 mean, I just put -- I put "Scientology" into a search 7 engine, it popped up with results, and I went to some of the 8 places that came up. 9 10 Q Well, was there something that happened in August 11 of '96 that had you go to Operation Clambake, start going to 12 the Internet, which you said you had not visited much 13 before? 14 THE COURT: I don't think it is Operation 15 Clambake. I think it is X-E-N-U, I have seen it 16 referred to. 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q But that is the Operation Clambake site, is that 19 what it is? 20 A That is the title page. That is what it says, 21 yes. 22 Q How do you pronounce that? Xenu? 23 A Yes. That is how you pronounce it. Xenu.net. 24 MR. WEINBERG: You are quicker than I am on 25 that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 150 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q Was there something that occurred in August of '96 3 that caused you, led you, to go to Xenu.com and some of 4 these other sites on the Internet? 5 A Only that I got Internet access. And when I got 6 it, I put many different things into the search engine and 7 saw the results that came up and looked at things. 8 For instance, my car. I have an NSX. So I put 9 "Acura NSX" in there. And I have lots of different things 10 like that. And one was Scientology. 11 Q But you didn't become a critic of Acura cars, 12 right? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q But you put in "Scientology." And what came out 15 was -- were sites or places where you -- one could go to 16 see -- to read very bad things about Scientology. Correct? 17 A I would say that there were sites that had a 18 tremendous amount of information about Scientology, yes. 19 Q Okay. And was there some way that you could 20 assure yourself that what you were reading was, you know, 21 anything more than garbage? 22 A Mmm, only to the -- only by the sense that you 23 just look at a wide variety of sources and come to a 24 conclusion based on reading all of them. I do that with a 25 lot of things. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 151 1 Q So you went on the Internet for three months in 2 '96 and you got all educated up from these sites about 3 Scientology. And then what did you do? 4 A I contacted some of the people that had E-Mail 5 addresses on ARS at some point. 6 Q Okay. Well, who were some of the people? 7 A Well, I don't remember initially. 8 Q Well, some names that we might know. Vaughn 9 Young? Stacy Young? Jesse Prince? Larry Wollersheim? 10 A Well, Stacy was one of the first ones. 11 Q Stacy Young? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Anybody else that comes to mind? 14 A I don't know who else in the beginning that I 15 contacted. 16 Q Well, after the beginning? 17 A Oh, certainly Grady Ward. Well, if you go all of 18 the way up until today, Frank Oliver, Mark DeLarma 19 (phonetic), Jeff Jacobsen, Jesse Prince, Bob Minton. 20 Q What did you do with them on the Internet? You 21 got their E-Mail addresses. What did you do? 22 A Just asked them what their association with -- you 23 know, with Scientology, what was their interest, how did 24 they become interested in it, what was their experience, if 25 they'd been members, that kind of stuff. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 152 1 Q And did, for example, Stacy Young tell you she and 2 her husband had been making a living writing declarations 3 and testifying in cases involving the Church of Scientology? 4 Did she tell you that? 5 A That wasn't the area of my inquiry, no. 6 Q Okay. When you talked to Jesse Prince, did he 7 tell you that he was being hired on to -- to work in cases 8 against the Church of Scientology? 9 A I met Jesse before that. So, no. 10 Q Well, did you have discussions with any of these 11 people on the Internet about their cases involving 12 Scientology? 13 A I don't know what you mean by that. 14 Q Did you talk -- did you communicate with Larry 15 Wollersheim ever? 16 A Yes. Once or twice I did. Yes. 17 Q Okay. How? 18 A By E-Mail. And then I went to the FACTNet board 19 meeting. And I certainly saw him there, talked to him some 20 there. 21 Q Okay. So first it's going to the Internet. Then 22 you get names, E-Mail addresses, you communicate with 23 people. 24 Then what do you do as you evolved as a critic of 25 Scientology after October of '96? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 153 1 THE COURT: I don't know what exactly you mean, 2 what did he do? 3 BY MR. WEINBERG: 4 Q Well, was there some other -- I mean, it sounds 5 like it was an evolution, first the Internet, then you are 6 communicating with some individuals. Then is it FACTNet? 7 I mean, what is the next -- what is it that you do 8 to -- to -- to launch your critic activities? 9 A Well, I really didn't do anything. I mean, I just 10 communicated with people. And sometimes when there were 11 meetings, the AFF meeting, or the -- 12 Q What does that mean, AFF? 13 A American Family Foundation. It's an organization 14 of academics, mostly, who meet and discuss cultic issues 15 around the world. They meet once a year at a convention. I 16 went to that convention two times. 17 Q With any of the -- of the critics from 18 Scientology? 19 A Mmm, yes. 20 Q Who? 21 A Stacy was there sometimes. Bob was there 22 sometimes. Hana and Jerry Whitfield were there sometimes. 23 Frank Oliver was there sometimes. Jeff Jacobsen was there 24 sometimes. Rob Keller was at the one in Philadelphia. 25 Q All right. Now, FACTNet, when was it -- or how Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 154 1 was it that you got involved in FACTNet? 2 A Well, I went to the FACTNet board meeting and met 3 the four or five people there. 4 Q Well, did somebody invite you to go there? 5 A Yes. Stacy did. 6 Q So you had acquainted -- had you visited with 7 Stacy before? Or was this just over the phone or by E-Mail? 8 A I think just by E-Mail. Maybe once on the phone. 9 Q Okay. And you knew what FACTNet was? It was 10 explained to you what it was? 11 A I just went to their website and looked at what 12 they were. 13 Q And did you understand that -- that it had to do 14 with Scientology and activities against Scientology? 15 A I thought of it as an archival library about 16 cults, almost exclusively about Scientology. They had four 17 or five other things, but mostly about Scientology. 18 Q When did you go out there, approximately? 19 A During the same time period. 20 Q Well -- 21 A August, September, '96. That is when I went 22 there -- no, I'm sorry, I take that back. Mmm, sometime 23 before May of '98, but I don't know when the first time I 24 went there was. 25 Q Okay. And you -- when you went there, you met Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 155 1 with Mr. Wollersheim, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton? 2 A And Dan Leipold. 3 Q And Dan Leipold was there, as well? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Is that when you first met Mr. Leipold? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And it was at that first meeting that you 8 contributed $100,000? 9 A No. It was a couple weeks later. 10 Q And then the total amount that you gave to FACTNet 11 was $120,000? 12 A That is correct. 13 Q And those were checks made payable to FACTNet? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And that money was solicited by Ms. Brooks, or 16 Mr. Minton, or who? 17 A Mostly by Ms. Brooks. 18 Q Okay. And -- and that caused you, I think you 19 said, down the road some concern because you didn't think 20 the money was being used the way you wanted it to be used? 21 A I had given that money to pay their operating 22 expenses for approximately one year. I understood their 23 operating expenses to be about $8,000 a month. They were 24 putting all their money toward litigation. 25 I thought the archival library was a valuable Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 156 1 resource for people who wanted to find out about 2 Scientology. So I said, "Look, I'll put in this money and 3 this should pay your expenses for one year, during which you 4 can do other fund-raising efforts and raise money to keep it 5 going after that." That was my intention. 6 Q Now, you knew Mr. Minton was also putting his 7 money into FACTNet, too, right? 8 A No. 9 Q Now, you were on the board of FACTNet? 10 A No. 11 Q Did you have a position at FACTNet? 12 A No. 13 Q In the fall of 1998, you funded an 14 anti-Scientology airplane banner that flew over the county, 15 correct? 16 A I contributed money to a -- to -- somebody had 17 arranged for a banner that said "Remember Lisa McPherson." 18 And I think it was about $1,000. And I said I would put up 19 half of it if the group of people that were sitting there, 20 about 30 people, put up the other half of the money to fly 21 over downtown while they did the vigil, yes. 22 Q Was that your idea? 23 A No. 24 Q Whose idea was it? 25 A Mmm, I think the guy's name was Kevin Baker, but Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 157 1 I'm not sure that is exactly right. That is what I 2 remember. 3 Q During that same period of time, you paid for 4 anti-Scientology ads to go up on transit authority buses in 5 Pinellas County, didn't you? 6 A No, I did not. 7 Q You didn't contribute any money to that? 8 A No. No. 9 Q Did you have anything to do with it? 10 A I talked to Frank Oliver about it. It was his 11 idea to start a -- he's in that business, and he wanted to 12 cause a group of advertisements like that to be circulated 13 around. And he asked my advice about specific aspects of 14 that. And I gave him that advice. 15 Q And do you know who paid for it? 16 A My understanding is it was like $100. I think he 17 paid for it himself. 18 Q Now, you attended the Public (sic) Suncoast 19 Transit Authority -- PSTA -- meeting on January 27, 1999 20 with Mr. Oliver and with Mr. Dandar when there was a 21 petition being made -- being advanced to try to get those 22 ads back up on the buses, correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q And you were there to -- as part of Mr. Oliver's 25 team? Or what? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 158 1 A Mmm, I was there because I was interested. I 2 thought that was a very egregious situation and I was 3 shocked it occurred. So I was very interested to see the 4 outcome. 5 Q Do you remember seeing the ads on the buses? 6 A I didn't stay that day. I was leaving town. I 7 walked by the bus stop and I might have seen two or three of 8 them as they went by, but that is it. 9 Q And did you have anything to do with the 10 different -- the language on the different ads? 11 A No. Somebody else -- I assume Frank -- did that. 12 Q And what participation did Mr. Dandar have in all 13 of that? Do you know what he was doing at that meeting with 14 you and Mr. Oliver? 15 A Mmm, he agreed to speak on Frank's behalf. That 16 is all. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Could I approach, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MR. WEINBERG: This was part of 161. 20 THE COURT: I think I have already seen them. 21 MR. DANDAR: Are these in evidence? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I -- there was an 23 objection way back when. And I frankly don't know, 24 recall, what the bottom line was. 25 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, do you happen to have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 159 1 the exhibit number of this group of pictures? 2 MR. FUGATE: It is 161. And on my list it says 3 ID only. 4 THE COURT: This is Number 161. Is it in 5 evidence? 6 MR. DANDAR: I do not believe so. But, you 7 know what, we objected before. We'll waive the 8 objection and let them in. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 10 THE COURT: All right. Then whatever is 161, 11 I'm sure it is this or something like this. 12 MR. WEINBERG: I think what it was was the 13 transcript plus the -- no, it is just the ads. So 14 this is in evidence. 15 THE COURT: It's in evidence. 16 THE CLERK: It was only -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: No. But she just admitted it. 18 THE COURT: I just admitted it without 19 objection. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q You would consider -- you flipped through there. 22 You would consider these to be rather critical signs of 23 Scientology, correct? 24 A I consider them to be anti as opposed to pro, yes. 25 Q And you were -- and your position was that this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 160 1 was some First Amendment right to be able to put this on the 2 buses? Was that the idea? 3 A I think the idea was Frank modeled these slogans 4 in the campaign after the one done by truth.com where they 5 ran advertisements on billboards and other places, on 6 television, about big tobacco and their smoking campaign. 7 And they used rather tantalizing statements to get people to 8 pay attention. And he modeled it on that. And I thought it 9 was a smart idea. I thought it would get a lot of 10 attention. 11 Q And this was at a time when you were a consultant 12 for Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death case, correct? 13 A No. It was after that. 14 Q Well, the meeting was -- was in 1999, wasn't it, 15 the transit authority meeting? 16 A Mmm -- 17 Q Weren't these signs in the fall of '98? 18 A I thought that -- I thought that this was -- I 19 could be wrong, but I thought that he did these signs. And 20 then the next week I went to Gerry Armstrong's deposition. 21 Q All right. 22 A And that -- that was the beginning of my working 23 with Mr. Dandar. 24 MR. WEINBERG: If I could approach, I think I 25 can refresh his recollection. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 161 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q I'm going to show you what are some minutes of 4 January 27, 1999 of the Pinellas Suncoast Transit Authority. 5 You see in here there is a section at the end, 6 there is a sign-in. And that is your signature, correct? 7 A Yes, it is. 8 Q Does that refresh your recollection that -- 9 A Yes. So it was actually the month after. So I 10 started working with Mr. Dandar in December. And this was 11 the next January. That is correct. 12 MR. DANDAR: So what is the date? I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: I don't know. 14 THE WITNESS: January 27, '99. 15 MR. WEINBERG: January 27, '99. 16 MR. DANDAR: The hearing? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Thanks. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q Now, I'm going to show you -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: I'll have the clerk mark -- 22 THE CLERK: 212. 23 MR. WEINBERG: -- this as 212. 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q And if you'll just look at Exhibit 212. Is that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 162 1 the banner that you contributed to that was flown over the 2 county? 3 A Yes. I never saw it, so -- 4 THE COURT: You are assuming that is it? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. It sure looks like it. 6 MR. DANDAR: Exhibit number? 7 THE COURT: 212. 8 MR. WEINBERG: 212. I move 212 into evidence. 9 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 10 THE COURT: It will be received. 11 MR. DANDAR: Do we have a date on this? 12 MR. WEINBERG: No. But I think he said it was 13 in the fall of '98. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Is that right? 16 A This would have been during the same week that the 17 signs were on the bus. Yes. 18 Q And that had to do with the Lisa McPherson vigil, 19 that was all timed for about the same time? 20 A It was the -- the memorial of her death was that 21 week. Yes. 22 Q Okay. So that would be early December. Correct? 23 A That is correct. 24 Q Now, has Mr. Dandar been your lawyer in anything? 25 A I don't believe so, no. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 163 1 Q You said something about you and Mr. Dandar having 2 the same problem with the same individual. 3 A That is correct. 4 Q What was that? 5 A Mmm -- 6 Q Or who was that, first of all? 7 A Well, I would rather not say who it is because -- 8 because I would rather not have that person contacted or 9 possibly harassed. 10 Q Well, excuse me -- 11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I object. That person has 13 nothing to do with Scientology, nothing to do with 14 litigation, nothing to do with this case. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry, this is a hearing, he 16 brought it up. He needs to answer the question. I 17 can't assume that is going to happen. 18 I mean, this is something that was involved in 19 some litigation? 20 MR. DANDAR: No. No. No litigation. It has 21 nothing to do with the Church of Scientology. It 22 has nothing to do with any litigation at all. 23 THE COURT: Well, it doesn't matter. You can't 24 just say "I am not going to tell you who it is." 25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it involves a privacy Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 164 1 matter that I would invoke on behalf -- Mr. Haney's 2 behalf and this third party. 3 THE COURT: What is it? I mean, what is it 4 you're talking about? I thought this was somebody 5 you were involved in litigation with. 6 MR. DANDAR: No, I'm not involved in litigation 7 with. And it involves a third party who has nothing 8 to do with anybody here or anything -- 9 THE COURT: Well, maybe I -- 10 MR. DANDAR: I would rather tell you that in 11 camera, to be honest with you. 12 THE COURT: Well, the answer is no. I mean, 13 no. I can't assume just because you think that the 14 Church of Scientology is going to harass this -- 15 whoever it is -- that that is going to occur. We 16 just can't have people coming in saying, "I'm not 17 telling you." There is no privacy right. 18 If you have a privilege -- you represent him? 19 Or do you represent them? 20 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't represent any of them. 21 THE COURT: Well -- 22 MR. DANDAR: I represent myself. And it is 23 also relevancy. There is nothing to connect it -- 24 THE COURT: Counselor, sit down. 25 You'll have to tell us who it is you are Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 165 1 talking about. 2 THE WITNESS: Fine. 3 A His name is Bob Gordon. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q And what was the purpose of you even mentioning 6 this, that you and Mr. Dandar had the same problem? What 7 did that have to do with this? What was the purpose of you 8 mentioning that? 9 THE COURT: Well, I think it came up as to -- 10 well, I don't know how it did come up. 11 THE WITNESS: I was asked why I was in 12 Clearwater that day -- 13 THE COURT: That is right. 14 THE WITNESS: -- when I was served with the 15 subpoena. 16 BY MR. WEINBERG: 17 Q Oh, the day you were served with the subpoena, 18 that was it? 19 A That is correct. Yes. 20 Q And so you and Mr. Dandar had a meeting with this 21 same person to try to work out whatever the problem was? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q And Mr. Dandar had asked you to be at that 24 meeting? 25 A No. The man, Mr. Gordon, asked me to be at that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 166 1 meeting. 2 Q And also asked Mr. Dandar to be at the meeting? 3 A I assume so. I wanted him to be at the meeting. 4 Q Who served you with a subpoena? 5 THE COURT: Is that really relevant to this? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I don't know why Mr. Dandar 7 asked him about it to begin with. 8 THE COURT: I don't know why, either. 9 A A man. I don't remember his name. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q All right. 12 THE COURT: I don't know if there is some 13 confidentiality business. I guess there is. Some 14 lawyer is here. 15 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to put on the record 16 he's not here voluntarily. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q Now, in -- in the fall of 1998, you struck a deal 20 with Dan Leipold to finance the Lopez case against the 21 Church of Scientology, didn't you? 22 A No. I -- Mmm -- I agreed to loan Dan Leipold some 23 money. And I knew he was going to act as a lawyer for 24 Mr. Lopez, yes. 25 Q How did you know all that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 167 1 A He told me. 2 Q How did you know Mr. Leipold at that point? 3 A You asked me that. 4 I met him at the FACTNet meeting in May of '98. 5 Q Okay. So -- so between May of '98 and whenever 6 this was -- what was this? In December of '98? When did 7 you loan the money to Mr. Leipold? 8 A Between October and December of '98. I don't 9 remember specifically. 10 Q Had you had other meetings with Mr. Leipold? 11 A I don't know if I'd seen him again between May and 12 that time or not. I don't recall. 13 Q You gave him $100,000? 14 A I gave him $10,000 to start with. 15 Q Well, how much did you end up giving him? 16 A $100,000. 17 Q All right. And -- and Mr. Leipold indicated that 18 he needed it in order to finance his case against the Church 19 of Scientology? 20 A He indicated he needed it for his business. And 21 that was one of the things he was doing. And I was willing 22 to help him with that, yes. 23 Q What do you mean, you mean one of the things he 24 was doing was going to sue the Church? 25 A He had already sued the Church. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 168 1 Q In the Wollersheim matter? 2 A No. In the Lopez case. 3 Q Okay. And you got a loan agreement with him? 4 A Yes. 5 Q I mean, an actual loan agreement that says 6 whatever the terms are? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And does he -- I mean, does this particular 9 agreement say he has to pay you back? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Under all circumstances? Or just if he wins the 12 case? 13 A All circumstances. 14 Q Okay. And I take it -- 15 THE COURT: We don't need to go into too much 16 detail -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 18 THE COURT: -- about some loan agreement in 19 some other case, do we? 20 MR. WEINBERG: No, but -- 21 BY MR. WEINBERG: 22 Q You understood that Mr. Leipold was essentially 23 almost exclusively devoting his practice to Scientology at 24 that time? You knew that, didn't you? 25 A No. I don't think he ever did that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 169 1 Q Now, had he already -- which firm was he with at 2 this time? 3 A Mmm, Leipold, Donahue & Shipe. 4 Q Was his new firm? 5 A Mmm -- 6 THE COURT: If he knows. 7 A I don't know. I know at some point he went out on 8 his own. And he was on his own in that firm when I met him, 9 as far as I know. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q And that same time period, Mr. Leipold -- you 12 hired Mr. Leipold to demand a million dollars from the 13 Church of Scientology, didn't you? 14 A I had Dan Leipold send a letter asking for a 15 refund on my behalf for the $1,200,000 I had given to 16 Scientology during my time in it, yes. 17 THE COURT: Wow. Two and a half years? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q He was your lawyer with regard to that letter, is 21 that right? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q Let me show you what we'll have the clerk mark as 24 the next exhibit. 25 THE CLERK: 213. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 170 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q 213. Now, Exhibit 213 you authorized Mr. Leipold 3 to send to the General Counsel, Church of Scientology 4 International, on or about September 28, 1998, is that 5 right? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q And at this point, you were definitely a critic of 8 Scientology, as you would define that term, is that right? 9 A That is correct. 10 Q And do you recall that there was a series of 11 correspondence back and forth between the Church and your 12 lawyer? 13 A My recollection is that Mr. Abelson sent him two 14 letters, and he sent one more letter, so a total of four 15 letters. 16 Q And the bottom line was -- is that the Church 17 refused to refund a million dollars to you, is that right? 18 A That is correct. 19 THE COURT: Or any part of it? 20 THE WITNESS: They said if I wanted it, I had 21 to sue them. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q You had to what? 24 A Sue them. 25 Q That is what they said? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 171 1 A Yes. 2 Q Didn't -- didn't they actually say that there was 3 a process to go through and you needed to go through that 4 process? 5 A In the first letter, that is what they said. In 6 the second letter, it was a little bit different. 7 Q Oh, well -- 8 THE COURT: How much of this stuff do we have 9 to get into here? I mean -- 10 MR. WEINBERG: I agree. I mean, it's obvious 11 what -- 12 THE COURT: I don't know what is obvious, 13 though. 14 MR. WEINBERG: No, I mean -- 15 THE COURT: If you want to go ahead and put it 16 all in, put it all in. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going into detail. I 18 was just going to mark the other letters. 19 THE COURT: All right. Is this -- all of this, 20 I'm trying to see, "Each of the below listed 21 organizations, provide a full and detailed 22 accounting," I don't know what the "below listed 23 organizations" are. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I think there is another page. 25 We can have him -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 172 1 THE WITNESS: I'd donated money to each of 2 those organizations. 3 THE COURT: So when you said "the below listed 4 organizations," it is those organizations that you 5 carbon-copied on the letter? 6 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: There is no other list? 8 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. WEINBERG: What did you mark them, Madam 11 Clerk? 12 THE CLERK: 214A, B, and C. 13 MR. WEINBERG: 214A is the October 20, 1998 14 letter from Mr. Abelson to Mr. Leipold. 15 214B is November 10 -- I mean, I'm sorry, 214B 16 is the October 28, 1998 letter from Mr. Leipold to 17 Mr. Abelson. 18 And 214C is the November 10, 1998 letter from 19 Mr. Abelson to Mr. Leipold. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q And can you identify those as the various 22 correspondences that went back and forth, Mr. Haney? 23 A Yes. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I offer 214A, B and C into 25 evidence, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 173 1 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. DANDAR: Is 213 in evidence? 4 MR. WEINBERG: I think so. What is 213? 5 MR. DANDAR: The original -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: I offer 213, as well, if I 7 could. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 10 THE COURT: Did you ever get any money back? 11 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Did you ever sue them? 14 A No, I did not. 15 Q Did you ever go through the refund process that 16 Mr. Abelson described to your lawyer? 17 A No, I did not. 18 Q Now, as I understand it from your testimony, in 19 December of 1998 you got involved in the Lisa McPherson 20 case, is that right? 21 A In December 1998 I agreed to help Ken with the 22 case. Yes. 23 Q Well -- 24 THE COURT: As a consultant? Is that what you 25 mean? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 174 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Was there a contract of some sort? 4 A There was a one-page agreement, yes. 5 Q And were you paid to do this? 6 A No, I was not. 7 Q And how -- just describe briefly how you got 8 involved. I mean, how was it you came in contact with 9 Mr. Dandar? 10 A I met with him in Clearwater. I listened to his 11 presentation of what the case was about. And I thought that 12 it was important that he have as much help as he could get. 13 Q What I meant by that, was there somebody like 14 Ms. Brooks or someone like that, Mr. Minton, that had put 15 you in touch with Mr. Dandar? 16 A No. I just sought him out. 17 Q And you learned this from the Internet? Or was 18 there some other reason? 19 A Something I had read about the Lisa McPherson case 20 obviously mentioned his name. 21 Q Now, the first thing you did when you got involved 22 was to pay the expenses for a witness to fly from Europe to 23 Clearwater to testify in December of '98. Right? 24 A Mmm, before December, there was a witness who had 25 participated in a similar isolation watch to Lisa's. And Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 175 1 they were unable -- they were unemployed and needed money 2 for a ticket to get to Clearwater to testify. And I paid 3 for that ticket. 4 Q Right. And his name was Karsten Lorenzen, is that 5 right? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q Who approached you to pay for that ticket? 8 A He just said he couldn't come. And I offered to 9 give him the money. I asked him how much it was. He said, 10 "$500." I got his E-Mail address from Rod Keller. So 11 nobody, you know, approached me. 12 Q But -- so you weren't even a consultant at that 13 point? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q But you did attend his deposition? 16 A In December I attended the depositions of Gerry 17 Armstrong and Karsten Lorenzen, right. Yes. 18 Q And Marjorie Wakefield, correct? 19 A I don't recall that. 20 Q Now, other than attending the deposition of Gerry 21 Armstrong and Karsten Lorenzen in December of 1998, were 22 there any other depositions in this case that you attended? 23 A Yes. I attended a series of depositions the 24 following summer in Dallas with Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson 25 and -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 176 1 Q Lee Skelton and Sam Davis? 2 A That is right. Those four. 3 Q And is that the sum and substance of the depos 4 that you went to, the two in December of '98 and the four in 5 May of '99? 6 A I don't know. I went to some court hearings, and 7 I might have gone to some other depos. I just don't 8 remember. 9 Q Now, in addition to loaning money to Mr. Leipold, 10 you also provided funds to Vaughn Young for over a year in 11 order to work on a project to -- to try to -- to try to get 12 rid of the tax-exempt status of the Church of Scientology, 13 correct? 14 A No. Vaughn Young had -- he was living in a house 15 that was paid for by the guy that was sleeping with his 16 wife. He decided he could no longer stay there. 17 I told him he could come and stay with me. He had 18 a big dog. After a period of time, I didn't -- I was not 19 comfortable with his big dog living at our house, so I got 20 him an apartment. After he was there for a few months and 21 it became obvious he was not moving any time soon, I said, 22 "Hey, I have got tens of thousands of pages of materials and 23 books and court documents and stuff that I have acquired 24 about Scientology. Could you put these together in some 25 kind of order for me?" Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 177 1 And he said he would. He got sick, had a heart 2 attack. Then he had cancer. And he never did it. And he 3 stayed there approximately twelve months. 4 Q And he's testified previously that you were paying 5 him $200 a week for approximately 12 months, I think. Is 6 that accurate? 7 A I gave -- I paid for his apartment and I gave him 8 $200 a week to cover his other incidental expenses, yes. 9 Q This was during 1998, do you know? 10 A I think it was the second half of '98 and the 11 first half of '99. 12 Q Okay. And did -- did his work have anything to do 13 with going to Washington to pull documents concerning the 14 tax-exempt status of the Church of Scientology? 15 A He went to several places getting documents and 16 filling in the gaps in the things that I already had. And I 17 don't remember all of the different places. He went a very 18 substantial number of places. I think he was gone two 19 months, driving around the country in his car and stuff, 20 getting things. So, you know -- 21 Q You gave him a car, too, right? 22 A Mmm, I had rented a car -- well, I rented a car 23 and I owned a car. And he drove one or the other at 24 different times, yes. 25 Q When did you first meet Jesse Prince? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 178 1 A In August of that year, I believe. 2 Q Well, that year meaning? 3 A July or August. 4 Q What year are we talking about? 5 A Mmm, I think it is '99. I don't remember if Jesse 6 was '98 or '99. One or the other. 7 Q Do you remember the circumstances where you first 8 met him? 9 A Bob and Stacy came to discuss that curriculum I 10 spoke of before. Stacy got an E-Mail saying that Jesse was 11 trying to contact her. Stacy suggested that he come to 12 Columbus, because he was there. And he flew in that night 13 about 11 p.m. We picked him up at the airport. 14 Q But that was in '98, wasn't it? 15 A I just don't know. 16 THE COURT: He said he didn't know. If you say 17 you don't know, let's assume it is '98 and let's go 18 on from there. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q The Key West meeting took place a year later, 21 correct? 22 A Yes, it was the next summer, yes. 23 Q The Key West meeting was in August of '99? 24 A Okay. So it would have been '98. 25 Q Okay. And did you give any money to Mr. Prince? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 179 1 A No. 2 Q Did you give money to Mr. Oliver? 3 A Not as a gift. I did some business with 4 Mr. Oliver once, but I didn't give anything to Mr. Oliver. 5 Q You didn't give him $100,000 or thereabouts? 6 A No. 7 Q Now, you said that -- by the way, during the time 8 that you were -- well, after the May '99 depositions in 9 Dallas where you were with the family members, did you do 10 anything else on the case? 11 A I attended different hearings and spoke and such. 12 Q Did there come a point in time when you didn't do 13 anything on the case anymore? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And can you date that for us? 16 A Mmm, at the end of 2000. 17 Q All right. And was there a reason? 18 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, I'm not supposed to 19 discuss the settlement agreement. Are you ordering 20 me to discuss the settlement agreement, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: I don't even know who you settled 22 with. 23 THE WITNESS: His name was Bryan Zwan. He's 24 the owner of Digital Lightwave. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I don't want to get into Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 180 1 Mr. Zwan's settlement agreement. 2 THE COURT: Then don't ask the question. Back 3 off of it, because I will order him to discuss it. 4 BY MR. WEINBERG: 5 Q The time that you last did anything on the case 6 was in 2000 sometime, is that right? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q All right. Now, in -- you said that there were 9 meetings that you attended in which the -- there was a 10 discussion with regard to amending the complaint by adding 11 David Miscavige. Do you remember that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, how many of those meetings were there? 14 A As I recall, there were four or five in a very 15 short period of time, over two or three days. 16 Q And when was the meetings? 17 THE COURT: Are you telling me you stopped 18 doing anything for Mr. Dandar because, at least in 19 part, that was disclosing the settlement agreement? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Go ahead. 22 BY MR. WEINBERG: 23 Q When did the meetings take -- can you date the 24 meetings? 25 A I don't recall. It would be the date of the fifth Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 181 1 amended complaint. That was when that was happening. But I 2 don't recall the date at all. 3 Q Do you remember if it was before, or after, the 4 Key West meeting? 5 A No. 6 Q Now, do you recall where the meetings were? 7 A Yes. They were in Ken Dandar's office. 8 Q Do you remember which office? 9 A No. He moved. I don't remember -- I think they 10 were at the new office, like when he first moved. 11 Q Now, and did you do any memos at the meetings? 12 A No. 13 Q Take notes at the meetings? 14 A No. 15 Q Now, you said that Mr. Dandar, during these 16 meetings, kept asking where the evidence was with regard to 17 supporting adding David Miscavige to the case, right? 18 A He wanted to know specifically was there enough 19 direct evidence. That is what I recall him saying, direct 20 evidence. Whatever that means in legalese, I don't know. 21 But he said, "Are you sure you have enough direct evidence 22 to prove that he directed this," so to speak. 23 That was his single concern. That is what I 24 remember him repeating. 25 Q Were you looking at drafts of the fifth amended Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 182 1 complaint? Were you-all discussing drafts? 2 A I was not looking at drafts. I don't know if 3 anybody had or not. 4 Q Well, was there discussion about the evidence to 5 support the allegation that David Miscavige had ordered Lisa 6 McPherson to die? Was there discussion about that? 7 A I would say the discussions centered around what 8 Jesse knew and what Stacy knew that would make that true. 9 That is what I recall being discussed. 10 Q Well, do you remember Jesse Prince, Stacy Brooks 11 or Ken Dandar or anyone at that meeting saying that they had 12 a shred of evidence to indicate that David Miscavige had 13 been -- had -- had ordered Lisa McPherson to -- to die? 14 A I wouldn't put it that way. I would say that they 15 claimed and discussed a very -- a very serious showing of 16 how things are done in Scientology, and that it became 17 obvious, through that discussion, that it would be directed 18 by David Miscavige -- whatever was done with her would be 19 directed by David Miscavige, because of her status as a 20 persistent red tag, which is when you have a problem and -- 21 in your auditing and it does not resolve, that this goes up 22 and up the chain of command. And by the point where she was 23 running around naked in public, it would certainly have been 24 his personal concern. 25 And from what they said, I agree. I thought that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 183 1 made sense, from my experience. Running the local org, that 2 made perfect sense to me. 3 Q And it made perfect sense to you that David 4 Miscavige would have ordered -- sent an order out that Lisa 5 McPherson die? That made perfect sense to you, from your 6 two years' experience in the Columbus org? 7 A I didn't say that. 8 THE COURT: He didn't say that, Counsel. 9 MR. WEINBERG: No. I understand that. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q And that didn't make perfect sense to you, did it, 12 that -- that David Miscavige, as the complaint said, ordered 13 Lisa McPherson to die? That didn't make perfect sense to 14 you, did it? 15 A It only made sense to me in the context that 16 Teresa Summers, at that time, relayed to me an incident 17 where another person was actually ordered to drop their 18 body, which means die, in Scientology. And I was very 19 shocked by that. 20 Q Well, Teresa Summers told you in 1999 that? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And where did you meet Teresa Summers? 23 A I had known Teresa Summers for almost ten years, 24 because her sister and brother-in-law were my wife and my 25 best friends in Scientology. So I knew Teresa through her Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 184 1 sister. 2 Q So Teresa was at that point working as part of the 3 trial team of Mr. Dandar in August of '99? 4 A No. Teresa had contacted Mr. Dandar and done a 5 video for him, giving some evidence. And when I saw her 6 name I said, "Hey, Ken, I have known this woman for ten 7 years." 8 He said, "No, you don't." He couldn't believe 9 such a coincidence. 10 Anyway, I called her up, we got together, had 11 lunch, that sort of stuff. 12 Q She told you this person she was talking about was 13 a person who was terminally ill? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q You knew there was no evidence that Lisa McPherson 16 was terminally ill. You knew that, didn't you? 17 A I had never seen any evidence that said she was 18 terminally ill, no. 19 Q Now, at this meeting, did Mr. Dandar -- at these 20 meetings did Mr. Dandar ask Mr. Prince or Ms. Brooks or you 21 or whoever else was there what the evidence was that 22 Mr. Miscavige had ordered Lisa McPherson to die? 23 A Yes, he did. 24 Q And the evidence was what? 25 A Their experience at -- they were both highly Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 185 1 placed managers inside of the Scientology organization. 2 Mr. Prince was the second most powerful person in the entire 3 organization. And evidence was their experience of how 4 Scientology runs and who gives orders and who follows them. 5 And based upon what they said, I thought that what 6 they said was correct. 7 Q Now, did Mr. Prince say, at the meeting, that he 8 had ever given an order for someone, on an introspection 9 rundown, to die? 10 A I don't recall that. 11 Q Did he say that he had ever been on an 12 introspection rundown, at these meetings? 13 A My recollection was that he had supervised at 14 least one, and that he and Stacy had both, at different 15 times, supervised that same one. You know, by coincidence, 16 that they had both worked on one that was the same. I don't 17 know if they had done others or not. 18 THE COURT: Counsel, it is kind of amazing to 19 me you are kind of grilling this guy. And the 20 lawyer on the case apparently thought the same 21 thing, and he's the lawyer, and he thought there was 22 enough. That is what this is about. This isn't an 23 unschooled man who apparently was swayed by 24 Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks. 25 I don't know why you are spending all this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 186 1 time. You heard the same thing that the others 2 heard. Mr. Dandar is the one that filed the 3 complaint. He didn't know any more than what is in 4 Mr. Prince's affidavit. That apparently was enough 5 for Mr. Dandar. 6 MR. WEINBERG: That was going to be my next 7 question. 8 THE COURT: We don't need to spend a lot of 9 time on this. This is a waste of time. It is 10 whether Mr. Dandar thought he was filing a -- filing 11 a false complaint is what is the issue here. 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q Did you review Mr. Prince's affidavit in the case? 14 A I only saw it after it was filed. I didn't see it 15 in that context. 16 Q And did you work on that affidavit with him? 17 A I never saw it before it was filed. 18 Q And at the meetings did Dr. Garko express 19 discomfort with regard to making that allegation that David 20 Miscavige had ordered Lisa McPherson to die? 21 A He had a very serious concern that it would link 22 them to time of trial. And also the time to get to the 23 trial, yes. So he was opposed to it. 24 Q Now, when did you disassociate yourself from the 25 Lisa McPherson Trust? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 187 1 A I think in January of 2000. 2 Q That was like a month after it started? 3 A Oh, I'm sorry, December 2000. 4 Q Okay. 5 A About a year later, yeah. 6 Q And you only visited the Lisa McPherson Trust four 7 or five times? 8 A If that, in that year, yes. 9 Q So you were not active in the Lisa McPherson 10 Trust? 11 A I wasn't there every day, no. 12 Q Now, you were at the Key West meeting in August of 13 '99? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And did you have anything to do with organizing 16 the meeting? 17 A I -- Mmm -- Thom Haverty invited me and my son. 18 He and his wife were going to be there. And I asked Ken if 19 he could go. And he said yes. And then I asked Jesse. And 20 he said he could go. And then a few weeks later I asked 21 Ford and Dan Leipold to come, too. 22 Q Was there anybody -- 23 A So, basically, I asked everybody there was to be 24 asked after I was invited, yes. 25 Q Was there anybody else you asked that didn't come? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 188 1 A No. 2 Q Well, did you ask Mr. Minton to go? 3 A No. 4 Q Now, this was not just a fishing trip, was it? 5 A As far as I was concerned, it was, yeah, a 6 fishing -- it was a vacation, a vacation/fishing trip. We 7 were going to go deep-sea fishing. My son really wanted to 8 go deep-sea fishing. That is why I went. 9 Q Now, the testimony has been that there were daily 10 discussions concerning Scientology and strategy as it 11 related to Scientology cases at this Key West meeting. Is 12 that correct? 13 THE COURT: Counsel -- 14 A That is correct. 15 THE COURT: -- there has also been testimony it 16 was a vacation, fishing or -- 17 BY MR. WEINBERG: 18 Q Well, how many times did you go fishing? 19 A I think five. 20 Q You were down there five days? 21 A Well, I think I went five times deep-sea fishing. 22 Ford took my son out sometimes in a little skip boat, you 23 know, to go fishing, in addition to that. So I went five 24 times. 25 Q Were there other people that would stay back and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 189 1 have meetings? 2 A It wasn't so much meetings like you're talking 3 about. This was the common thing that linked all of the 4 people together, they all had interest in Scientology, they 5 had some Scientology litigation. So they -- that is what 6 they discussed. It was the common thing that linked all of 7 the people together. 8 Q And did you-all talk about the strategy of the 9 various cases, including the Lisa McPherson case? 10 A I would assume so, yes. I mean, that is -- yeah, 11 in the broad term, sure. 12 Q And was Mr. Leipold and/or Mr. Greene -- was there 13 discussion about them joining the case, helping Mr. Dandar 14 out? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Was that part of why you brought them here? 17 A It was more because Dan Leipold said, "I really 18 want to go fishing." 19 I said: "Since you are thinking about joining the 20 case, this would be a good chance to get to know Ken, see if 21 you get along, all that sort of stuff." So at the last 22 minute I asked him if he would go. 23 Q You said you weren't familiar with the 24 introspection rundown? 25 A That is right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 190 1 Q And you couldn't find it? 2 A It wasn't something that was available at our 3 organization, at a Class Five organization. We didn't have 4 it in our org. 5 Q Well, did you-all have the red volumes? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Don't you -- aren't you aware it's in the red 8 volumes? 9 A No, I'm not aware of that. 10 Q But if it is in the red volumes, you obviously had 11 access to it, correct? 12 A Yes. Uh-huh. 13 Q Now, you said that you had a discussion with 14 Mr. Minton concerning money, and Mr. Minton made it clear 15 that -- that he had a way to bring his own money into the 16 United States from overseas to fund this case? 17 A Correct. He made it clear that was his intention. 18 He was kind of poking about a way to -- he was asking me 19 questions how I would do it. So I don't know if he had a 20 way or not, but that was certainly his intention. 21 Q You knew he was talking about his money? 22 A That is correct. 23 Q Did you give him some suggestions about how he 24 could do that and not have it traced? 25 A No. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 191 1 Q Now, Mr. Dandar asked you about the fair game 2 policy. There was no -- in the org you were in, there was 3 no fair game policy that was available to you, was there? 4 A There was no printed policy there at all. No. 5 Q You never saw a policy that said "Fair Game" or 6 "Cancel Fair Game" when you were in the Church of 7 Scientology, did you? 8 A Not inside the org, no. 9 Q Now, you said that you had -- I think you said 10 that you had some meetings or a meeting with Dell Liebreich 11 and her siblings down in Texas during the depos, is that 12 right? 13 A That is correct. 14 Q And was anybody else at this meeting other than 15 the -- Dell Liebreich, her siblings or you? 16 A I think Ken Dandar was there. And maybe Thom 17 Haverty. 18 Q All right. 19 A And maybe Michael Garko. 20 Q And was this one meeting? Or several meetings? 21 A I don't remember specifically. I just know I went 22 there to talk to him about it. And I did talk to them about 23 it. 24 Q And during this one meeting or meetings, all of 25 the family members made it clear that they did intend to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 192 1 donate a substantial portion of the proceeds from any 2 settlement or victory to some anti-cult group, preferably a 3 group in the name of Lisa, is that what they said? 4 A That wasn't what they said. 5 Q Well, what did they say? 6 A Dell spoke for them. And I approached it from the 7 viewpoint of being a Christian. And I simply said that I 8 didn't believe God's world was for Lisa to die to make her 9 relatives rich, and asked her opinion on that, after 10 ascertaining they were all Christians. They said they 11 agreed with that. 12 I said, "What do you think God's purpose was?" We 13 went through things like that. 14 At the end she told me they had discussed this 15 before and that they thought that the money should go to 16 help people who had been victimized by cults, that that was 17 Fannie's last wishes, and that that is what they wanted to 18 do, and that they might set up an organization in Lisa's 19 name. 20 Q And did you have discussions with the family 21 concerning -- well, strike that. 22 You had a further discussion with Dell Liebreich 23 in December of 1999 about this same subject? 24 A Yeah. 25 Q And she confirmed again that it was -- it was her Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 193 1 intention and her family's intention to donate the bulk of 2 the proceeds or substantial portion of the proceeds to some 3 group? 4 A She confirmed that she had not committed to give 5 the money to Bob Minton or to the Lisa McPherson Trust. 6 This was a different subject, so to speak. 7 Q But she was going to contribute it to something 8 else? 9 A I didn't go over that again with her. I just 10 wanted to know that no agreement had been made to give it to 11 Bob, FACTNet or the Lisa McPherson Trust. 12 Q So you had an interest to make sure that 13 Mr. Minton didn't get the money, is that what you are 14 saying? I mean, you brought the subject up? 15 A Yes, I brought the subject up. 16 Q Because by this time, you and Mr. Minton had had a 17 falling out? 18 A No. That was a little bit later. But I just 19 didn't think that was the appropriate use of the money. It 20 didn't have anything to do with him personally. 21 Q Well, what was not an appropriate use of the 22 money? 23 A To go to an organization that was basically about 24 picketing and antagonizing and harassing. I thought it 25 should go to other groups or people who would really -- I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 194 1 was involved with other groups that were doing helpful 2 things. I would certainly have suggested, if there was 3 money, for them to contribute money to some of those things, 4 and others. 5 Q The meeting that you had with Dell Liebreich, Ken 6 Dandar, maybe Thom Haverty and the other siblings, was that 7 before, or after, the depositions? 8 A I don't know. It was just during that trip. 9 Q Now, have you had discussions with Vaughn Young 10 with regard to the case? 11 A I -- I'm sure it's come up at some time or 12 another, but I don't remember anything specific. 13 Q When is the last time you talked to Jesse Prince 14 about, you know, anything substantive concerning the case? 15 A I don't know. 16 Q Well, recently? 17 A Mmm, not very recently. But, you know -- 18 Q Well, within the last month or two? 19 A I don't think so, no. It would be longer than 20 that. 21 Q What about Patricia Greenway? Have you talked to 22 her about this hearing? 23 A No. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I think I'm about done. 25 THE COURT: We're just waiting so we can all Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 195 1 stop for the day so maybe I can get the orders out 2 on these tapes. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Believe me, I want to. 4 THE COURT: Because if I don't do this order 5 today, it's going to get to you-all in two weeks. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I know. I know. 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q What month -- do you know the month and year that 9 you left the Church? 10 A February of 1994. 11 Q And you alleged in a lawsuit, the Digital 12 Lightwave lawsuit, I think you alleged that you leaving the 13 Church had to do with a disagreement concerning your wife, 14 is that correct? 15 A That is correct. 16 Q Now, are you affiliated with Craig Branch? 17 THE COURT: Is this a -- a person, Craig? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 19 BY MR. WEINBERG: 20 Q You know who Craig Branch is, correct? 21 A Yes, I do. 22 Q He runs the Apologetics Resource Center? 23 A Resource Center, yes. 24 Q He's a person that has been down here in 25 Clearwater with you and other places, in essence speaking Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 196 1 out against what he calls cults, including Scientology, 2 correct? 3 A Craig, his job at the ARC, is Christian 4 Apologetic, which is defending the faith, Christianity, and 5 part of that is speaking to people about other religious 6 movements, NRM, New Religious Movements, including 7 Scientology -- 8 Q It also includes -- 9 THE COURT: Were you done, sir, before he 10 interrupted you? 11 A Yes. I go to speak at different times with him, 12 yes. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q And those movements he speaks out about -- 15 against -- and I guess you have, as well -- against -- it 16 includes Mormons, Jews, Unitarians and other religions? 17 True? Buddhists? Hindus? 18 A I have never gone with him and spoke about any of 19 those groups, nor has he spoken about any of those groups in 20 my presence. 21 Q Now, you know what The Way to Happiness is? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Do you remember getting commended with regard to 24 having contributed to dissemination with regard to The Way 25 to Happiness? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 197 1 A Yes. 2 Q And The Way to Happiness is this little booklet 3 here? 4 A That is right. 5 Q And do you remember that in the booklet various 6 things are mentioned, including don't do anything illegal, 7 is that right? 8 A It -- yes, it says several different homilies in 9 there. 10 Q It says don't lie, right? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: Let me see that book a minute. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure. 14 THE COURT: I remember looking at that -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: It's in evidence. 16 THE COURT: I know it is. Well, my copy is 17 somewhere. I marked it. It is in evidence. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 19 THE COURT: So you would agree whatever it says 20 in the book, that is the book we're all talking 21 about, right? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 MR. WEINBERG: We'll mark this as our next 24 exhibit. I'm almost done. 25 THE CLERK: 215. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 198 1 MR. WEINBERG: 215. 2 BY MR. WEINBERG: 3 Q Is this the commendation that you got with regard 4 to The Way to Happiness? 5 A Yes. 6 Q July 9, 1993? 7 A Yes. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I move that into evidence, your 9 Honor. 10 MR. DANDAR: No objection. What number is it? 11 THE COURT: 214? 12 THE CLERK: 215. 13 MR. WEINBERG: 215, I think. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q Now, did you violate these basic precepts when you 16 were in the Church that are in The Way To Happiness? 17 A Mmm, we -- we as individuals and as an 18 organization did lots of things that were deceptive or 19 downright deceitful. Yes. 20 Q But I asked you, did you? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now, are you familiar with policies with regard to 23 reporting in the Church? 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: I can tell you're going to be going Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 199 1 on too long. 2 MR. WEINBERG: No. This is my last question. 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry, it's not your last 4 question. We're taking a break. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I don't mind taking a break, but 6 I'm right at the end. 7 THE COURT: Go on. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Two things to show him. 9 Then I don't have any more questions. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q Are you familiar with the policy on knowledge 12 reports and staff member reports? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. We'll mark those as 15 next exhibits. And those are all my questions. 16 MR. DANDAR: I think he has to identify them 17 first. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 19 THE COURT: I can't even tell you what they are 20 yet. 21 THE CLERK: 216. 22 MR. WEINBERG: That is one. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Knowledge reports will be 24 216. 25 And staff member reports will be 217. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 200 1 And he doesn't have to identify them because 2 these are both HCO policy letters. I mean, he can 3 identify them. 4 Are you familiar with these policy letters? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I move them into evidence. 7 Those are all my questions. 8 THE COURT: All right. Any redirect? 9 MR. DANDAR: I have just a couple hours' worth. 10 I'm just kidding! I have two questions. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 (A discussion was held off the record.) 13 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Mr. Haney, how much money did you contribute to 16 The Way to the Happiness -- The Way to Happiness 17 dissemination project? 18 A Approximately $175,000. 19 Q And where did that $175,000 go? 20 A To buy The Way to Happiness books. 21 Q Where did those books go? 22 A I understand most of them are sitting in 23 somebody's garage. They were supposed to be disseminated to 24 schools, but nobody followed through on the program and they 25 just sat. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 201 1 MR. DANDAR: That is all I have. 2 THE COURT: Anything further? 3 MR. WEINBERG: No. I'm fine. 4 THE COURT: Thank you, sir, for coming. You 5 may be excused. 6 Counselor, thank you for coming. I hope you 7 enjoyed your trip to Florida. 8 MR. ROGOVIN: I did. Thank you. 9 THE COURT: Our weather hasn't been perfect 10 but -- 11 MR. ROGOVIN: Better than ours. 12 MR. DANDAR: I would like to remind the Court 13 about Jesse Prince being able to talk to me over the 14 two-week break. 15 THE COURT: Yes, let's go ahead and deal with 16 that. 17 What I would like to do is go out, first of 18 all, and see -- I had Sue redraft that order. And I 19 want to look at it, because I want to try to get 20 that out so you-all can maybe -- what I have done is 21 direct Mr. -- Mr. Keane to prepare the summary, 22 because I'm hoping it is on his computer. If it is 23 not on the computer, we'll have to redo the whole 24 thing. 25 So if I can maybe take a little break, I can Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 202 1 see if she's ready. If not, I'll have a redraft and 2 maybe I can give you all that order. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Good idea. Why don't we take a 4 break. 5 THE COURT: We'll take a break and then come 6 back. 7 On Mr. Prince, I will tell you what my 8 inclination is. My inclination is the same as it 9 has been for every other witness. And that is that 10 it's a long break. That the person that may have 11 some reason to talk to them about something other 12 than their testimony not be prohibited from doing 13 so. I think I afforded every witness that. I think 14 Mr. Prince is still Mr. Dandar's expert consultant. 15 I think it would be grossly unfair, since I'll be 16 gone for a two-week period, to prohibit him from 17 speaking to Mr. Dandar. 18 So unless you can show me some law that said I 19 would be abusing my discretion and somehow cause 20 this trial to be mistried no matter what the 21 verdict, I have full intention of treating 22 Mr. Prince, especially since he just barely got 23 started -- I don't know how much he testified, maybe 24 an hour. 25 MR. WEINBERG: I think it was longer than that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 203 1 THE COURT: Was it? 2 MR. WEINBERG: A couple hours. 3 THE COURT: A couple hours? Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: But, you know, I don't -- you 5 order what you order. 6 THE COURT: No, it's not my order. I want to 7 hear what you have to say why I should treat him 8 differently and why I should deny Mr. Dandar his 9 either expert or consultant during a 10 two-and-a-half-week period. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Well, is he -- my first 12 question, is he back being a consultant to 13 Mr. Dandar? 14 THE COURT: As far as I'm concerned, he is and 15 has been and will be until Mr. Dandar has somebody 16 else. I don't think he has anybody else. 17 MR. DANDAR: I previously announced -- 18 THE COURT: I think Mr. Prince comes on and off 19 the witness list, based on whether or not he can 20 find somebody else who he thinks will make a better 21 witness without all of the baggage that Mr. Prince 22 has. 23 When those witnesses go away, for whatever 24 reason they go away, many of which I have heard in 25 here, Mr. Prince goes back on the list. So I will Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 204 1 never consider Mr. Prince off the list until this 2 trial, if it takes place, is over, because I have a 3 feeling he would be off again and on again and off 4 again and on again. 5 MR. WEINBERG: My request is, is that -- is 6 that it be clear that he not speak to anybody 7 else -- I mean, other than Mr. Lirot, obviously -- 8 THE COURT: Right. 9 MR. WEINBERG: -- about it, particularly 10 Ms. Greenway and the other people that have been 11 attending the hearings here, and that he continue 12 the way in which, you know, he's apparently supposed 13 to have been the last few weeks, other than talking 14 to Mr. Dandar about reviewing other people's 15 testimony and stuff like that. I don't think that 16 would be appropriate. 17 THE COURT: Under the rule -- he's still under 18 the rule. In other words, he's not supposed to 19 discuss what is going on in this hearing with any 20 other witness. It is just when he testifies he's 21 normally precluded from speaking to anyone, 22 including all of the lawyers, yourself, Mr. Dandar, 23 what have you. 24 I simply think, since we'll be absent a 25 two-week period, he happens to be on the stand, he's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 205 1 Mr. Dandar's expert, he's Mr. Dandar's consultant, 2 it would be inappropriate for me to prohibit 3 Mr. Dandar, as this case is getting close to trial, 4 from speaking in any respect about -- to his expert. 5 MR. DANDAR: Miss Greenway is a volunteer 6 consultant for me and does talk to me about things. 7 THE COURT: Is she going to be a witness in the 8 case? 9 MR. DANDAR: No. 10 THE COURT: Are you going to call her? 11 MR. WEINBERG: No. 12 THE COURT: Then you can talk to her. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Jesse Prince can talk to 14 Patricia Greenway? 15 THE COURT: Absolutely. The rule says you are 16 not supposed to speak to any other witness about 17 your testimony. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So what is -- 19 THE COURT: That is all the rule is. It's so 20 one witness can't influence another witness's 21 testimony. That is it. 22 MR. WEINBERG: But what -- but what -- I 23 understood the rule somewhat differently, that -- I 24 mean, you can't circumvent the rule by, you know, by 25 having -- putting somebody in between a witness or Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 206 1 whatever to -- to talk to the witness. I mean, 2 Ms. Greenway -- 3 THE COURT: I know what Mr. Prince's testimony 4 is going to be. For heaven sakes, if you don't, I 5 would be absolutely flabbergasted. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not arguing with you. 7 THE COURT: I would have known what his -- 8 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have the strength to 9 argue with you. 10 THE COURT: There is no point in it. I can 11 hardly wait to get through it. I could almost do 12 his direct, your cross, and when all is said and 13 done, I'll still have it in my lap to decide how to 14 ferret it out. 15 MR. WEINBERG: You might make it easier for me. 16 THE COURT: I don't care who he talks to. I 17 know -- 18 MR. DANDAR: Could it be because you have an 19 affidavit from him? 20 THE COURT: It could be. It could be I expect 21 he'll testify consistent with that affidavit and his 22 deposition of over a thousand pages. I don't think 23 it is going to change much. 24 But Ms. Greenway, of course, should not be 25 disclosing to him anything that went on in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 207 1 hearing -- 2 MR. DANDAR: Oh, no. 3 THE COURT: -- in here. And he's, of course, 4 not to speak to any other witness about his 5 testimony, because that could influence another 6 witness. 7 All I am saying is I'm going to -- the rule is 8 still in effect. Whatever the rule means to every 9 other witness it still means to him. 10 I'm going to allow him, however, to speak to 11 Mr. Dandar, even though his testimony is going on 12 during this break. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 THE COURT: I am going to ask you, Mr. Dandar, 15 however, that you not speak to him directly about 16 the testimony that has already taken place -- 17 MR. DANDAR: Exactly. Right. 18 THE COURT: -- at all. In other words, that 19 testimony is that testimony, and you ought not speak 20 to him about that. Okay? 21 MR. DANDAR: That is fine. 22 THE COURT: Fair enough? 23 MR. WEINBERG: We'll see you after the break? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just want to clarify one Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 208 1 point, your Honor. It will take me 30 seconds. 2 Your Honor said the issue is whether 3 Mr. Dandar -- this is a legal point and I just 4 wanted -- so that our position is clear. 5 You had suggested the issue is whether 6 Mr. Dandar thought he was filing a false complaint. 7 And we've argued -- and it is in our May 14 memo and 8 we'll argue again -- the issue is not that, but 9 whether he had an objective good faith evidentiary 10 basis to make the allegations. He could have 11 thought it was true -- 12 THE COURT: You might argue that to me, but you 13 are certainly never going to get me to disqualify a 14 lawyer on the basis of the fact that summary 15 judgment is granted or not. That is what summary 16 judgments are for. 17 Your legal position may be one I don't adopt, 18 Counselor. I understand your legal position 19 perfectly fine. That doesn't mean I'm going to buy 20 it. Okay? 21 We'll be in recess now for 15 minutes, and I 22 hope to come back with an order. 23 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. DANDAR: Judge, may we take up Mr. Haney Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 209 1 being re-served with a subpoena? 2 THE COURT: Yes. 3 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Rogovin has to catch an 4 airplane flight. 5 MR. ROGOVIN: Your Honor, Mr. Moxon served 6 Mr. Haney with a subpoena outside the courtroom for 7 July 2nd to testify and bring documents to Florida 8 on July 2nd. 9 Mr. Haney is a resident of the state of Ohio, 10 city of Columbus. No notice was given to -- to 11 Mr. Dandar regarding this. And we think this 12 motion -- or this subpoena should be quashed. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. ROGOVIN: We're asking the Court now. They 15 then withdrew the subpoena, then followed Mr. Haney 16 downstairs and attempted to serve him in front of 17 the courthouse. 18 Then just a few minutes ago, Mr. Moxon said, 19 "We'll withdraw it," or words to that effect, "And 20 we'll file a motion for commission." 21 So, frankly, we don't know where we stand. But 22 we would feel better if this were quashed because we 23 don't think Mr. Haney has to come to Florida to 24 testify, and we don't think it was proper to serve 25 him when he was under subpoena to testify at this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 210 1 hearing. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Moxon? 3 MR. MOXON: I gave him a cover letter 4 indicating that we would be happy to schedule it at 5 any convenient time. We had to pick an arbitrary 6 date. Obviously, Mr. Haney just arrived today. He 7 was willing to come down to Florida pursuant to 8 Mr. Dandar's subpoena. 9 And I also told Mr. Rogovin we would be happy 10 to go to Ohio, if necessary, but it would be easier 11 to do it this way than through an out-of-state 12 commission, to have to litigate it here and then 13 litigate it in Ohio again. 14 THE COURT: What requirement is there that an 15 out-of-state deponent who doesn't want to come for a 16 deposition has to? 17 MR. MOXON: Well, I guess it's the same 18 Mr. Dandar just -- 19 THE COURT: No, there is a little bit of 20 difference because this is a hearing. In other 21 words, I'm not going to Ohio. 22 MR. MOXON: Okay. Well, as I indicated to him, 23 if you are in the state -- my understanding, the 24 general law is if you are in the state you can serve 25 somebody in the state and have them come. There may Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 211 1 be requirements with respect to paying their airfare 2 or whatnot, but I told him whatever is convenient. 3 I just served it to get the ball rolling. 4 THE COURT: Did you clear this date with 5 Mr. Dandar? 6 MR. MOXON: No. I told Mr. Dandar, again, I 7 picked an arbitrary date and said, "Let's get 8 together now." The date is up in the air. I don't 9 care what the date is. 10 THE COURT: The subpoena will be quashed. 11 MR. ROGOVIN: Thank you. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge -- 13 THE COURT: However, the deposition may be 14 taken, but it should be taken in Ohio where he 15 resides, and they should be coordinated with 16 counsel -- 17 MR. MOXON: Great. 18 THE COURT: And, I don't know, is he a witness? 19 MR. DANDAR: No, he's not a witness to the 20 wrongful death case. 21 THE COURT: Oh. 22 MR. MOXON: Well, he just testified today, 23 though, he's got considerable knowledge with respect 24 to what happened at LMT over that whole year period 25 and formation of it and knowledge about this -- his Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 212 1 position -- 2 THE COURT: I'm going to tell you what. You 3 are not to depose him until after I determine 4 whether the wrongful death case and the counterclaim 5 are to be done at the same time. 6 Number one, I have got a motion to dismiss in 7 front of me. If that is granted, you don't get his 8 deposition, period. 9 Number two, if I decide that the motion to 10 dismiss is to be denied, we have a trial scheduled 11 right now only on the wrongful death. He has no 12 information that I could see about that unless 13 Mr. Dandar wanted to call him for one of those small 14 things he said he's not going to. 15 So unless you want to call him, in which case, 16 you know, that is a different story. 17 MR. MOXON: No, I think you are right about 18 that. 19 THE COURT: Okay. And then if I should decide 20 that I want to consolidate, if -- if I don't dismiss 21 the case and if I consolidate the counterclaim with 22 the wrongful death, then I dare say that this case 23 will not most likely go to trial in August, in which 24 case you'll have time to take his deposition. 25 MR. MOXON: Fair enough. Thank you. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 213 1 THE COURT: So at the appropriate time -- I 2 think that he does have information concerning the 3 counterclaim. Discovery is something that might 4 tend to lead to relevant evidence. 5 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we cancelled ten 6 depositions for the wrongful death case, many of 7 which are expert witnesses of the defense. I 8 haven't been able to get anyone to reschedule those. 9 Hopefully, we'll be able to talk tomorrow or try to 10 get them rescheduled. That takes precedence over 11 Mr. Haney and -- 12 THE COURT: Did you not hear me? Were you just 13 getting ready to talk and didn't pay any attention 14 to what I said? 15 MR. DANDAR: I don't think -- 16 THE COURT: Obviously you were ready to talk, 17 you had it in your mind what you were going to say 18 and, therefore, you didn't listen to me. 19 I just told him he couldn't take the deposition 20 until after either the trial of the wrongful death 21 took place, which is scheduled for what now? 22 MR. DANDAR: Mid-August. 23 THE COURT: Mid-August, which is suspected to 24 go two months, unless I consolidated the 25 counterclaim. And if I did that, I dare say you-all Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 214 1 won't be ready to go in August. One side or the 2 other will move for continuance, it will be 3 continued, then he can schedule it. 4 I think Mr. Haney may have some information 5 regarding the counterclaim. I think if he wants to 6 take the deposition, he can do that. I'm giving the 7 wrongful death depositions priority, and I quashed 8 the subpoena, and ask him not to reschedule it until 9 all those decisions are made. 10 MR. MOXON: Understood. 11 THE COURT: Then I think even though he's in 12 Florida -- but I'm not sure of that law, but -- 13 MR. MOXON: I'm not sure, either. 14 THE COURT: But you said you would go to Ohio. 15 And I think that is the place to go. 16 MR. ROGOVIN: Thank you. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Now, obviously if he has 18 plans to come down here for something, there is 19 going to be a deposition taken, he wants it here, 20 that can be worked out. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 THE COURT: Now, I have something else. First 23 of all, I'm going to give you-all copies of this 24 order. I want you to read it, because it was kind 25 of hastily put together. I want to be sure it made Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 215 1 sense. This is another one of these copies to all 2 counsel where you get several, and I hope you'll -- 3 MR. MOXON: We'll distribute them. 4 THE COURT: I need one for my own file. Can 5 you just take -- there we go. 6 Madam Clerk, this is the original of this 7 order. This is not to be filed as evidence in this 8 case. It is to be filed with the clerk's office. 9 THE CLERK: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Do you understand? It is to be 11 filed in the case. Here is the order, and with the 12 order is an order sealing this part of this order. 13 It is to be sealed here. It is to be filed with 14 this. 15 This is not to be sealed. 16 This is to be sealed. Okay? 17 THE CLERK: Yes. 18 THE COURT: I -- see if you can understand 19 this. My secretary said she understood it. So -- 20 by the way, the word "videographer" I may not have 21 spelled right, because it came up on my computer as 22 a misspelled word with no suggestion on how to spell 23 it right. 24 MR. DANDAR: You have it correct. 25 THE COURT: Is that what it is? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 216 1 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Apparently it's a new word. 3 MR. DANDAR: Maybe from the Watergate era. 4 THE COURT: Does that cover everything? 5 MR. DANDAR: It does. What about are you going 6 to address separately or do we just go with the 7 transcript of the written documents? E-Mails? 8 THE COURT: No. Mr. Moxon said he would 9 prepare that. 10 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay. 11 MR. MOXON: I'll prepare it when we get the 12 transcript. I'll give a copy to Mr. Dandar. 13 THE COURT: Yes. If you can't get that done by 14 tomorrow, I'll have to do my own because I want it 15 done before I leave town. 16 MR. MOXON: Okay. 17 THE COURT: If you need the transcript, I mean, 18 I know what I said, I can do it myself. I just 19 thought maybe you could get it done. 20 MR. DANDAR: All right. 21 MR. MOXON: We'll do it for you, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, one additional matter, if 24 this is an appropriate time to bring it up. This 25 was relative to the discussion this morning where Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 217 1 Mr. Dandar discussed concern in the documents taken 2 off the LMT hard drive -- 3 THE COURT: Yes? 4 MR. LIROT: -- that had the Internet and E-Mail 5 addresses of individuals that apparently approached 6 the LMT for counseling, or some concerns with their 7 experience with the Church. 8 I had written Mr. McGowan a letter. He wrote 9 me back and said he tried not to -- to ensure that 10 none of that really was turned over to anybody, 11 trying to be sensitive of the other people's privacy 12 rights. 13 If I could present the two letters, Judge. 14 Obviously in light of the scheduling concerns 15 that we have, I don't know if there is anything that 16 can be done, but Mr. McGowan suggested that perhaps 17 if we look at that material with some greater 18 scrutiny to make sure none of the individuals that 19 are clearly not witnesses in this case and clearly 20 would not have any knowledge or information that 21 would be discoverable in this case, if the Church 22 and Church's counsel could turn over or return that 23 until the Court had a chance to look at that, make 24 sure the individuals' identities are not divulged to 25 any third party or to the Church, just to verify Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 218 1 that that information is not misdirected -- I'm not 2 casting any dispersions on the Church. Just in an 3 abundance -- 4 THE COURT: You are prattling. And you have 5 given me letters and you said, "Please read the 6 letters," and now you are talking. So let me read 7 the letters and then you can talk. 8 MR. LIROT: I will cease prattling. 9 THE COURT: Which of these letters come first? 10 Yours? 11 MR. LIROT: My letter went to Mr. McGowan 12 earlier today. And I do have a copy of that. 13 THE COURT: Okay. You mean there is another 14 one? 15 MR. LIROT: Just one from me. And I tried to 16 make copies, and I didn't want to disturb the Court 17 with the noise. So as Mr. McGowan responded, my 18 office faxed it to me. 19 THE COURT: I have two letters. Which is 20 first? 21 MR. LIROT: The one from me to Mr. McGowan. 22 THE COURT: So there are only two total 23 letters? 24 MR. LIROT: Two total letters. 25 THE COURT: I have got it now. Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 219 1 Okay. Well, it seems to me like what he said 2 here is you let him know what you're talking about 3 and he'll file a motion. 4 MR. LIROT: Well, is it possible for the Court 5 to take possession of those documents pending that, 6 obviously in light of the fact that we're not going 7 to be here for another two weeks? 8 THE COURT: Do you think for one minute that if 9 the Church of Scientology had some interest in these 10 E-Mail addresses, that they don't already have them? 11 So, you know, could I? Yes. Do I want to? No. 12 You know, am I going to ask these people who 13 have been at this hearing all this time to go home, 14 get them, bring them back here tomorrow when we're 15 not going to be in session? The answer is no. 16 If there is something that you want to be 17 returned, file your motion. I will hear it at the 18 appropriate time. And if something should be 19 returned, I'll specifically state what it is and 20 have it returned and direct them at that time not 21 to -- to use it. 22 Like I said, if I suggest to them it ought to 23 be removed from their pile and thrown away, they'll 24 have to do that. If they don't, something will 25 happen, they'll use it inadvertently sometime. So Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 220 1 they'll know that. Okay? 2 MR. LIROT: Very good. 3 THE COURT: All right. So -- I don't know what 4 Mr. McGowan is talking about here about that "Ken -- 5 for the first time I learned that Ken Dandar was to 6 view whatever I turned over to Mike Keane. After I 7 reviewed documents, that --" I don't know what he's 8 talking about. I just didn't order that. 9 I ordered that Mike Keane, on any document that 10 he saw that had Ken Dandar's name to or from, should 11 be turned over to me for review. 12 MR. LIROT: Right. 13 THE COURT: Then I think later he kind of says 14 that. So you might make sure that -- 15 MR. LIROT: We'll make sure he gets a copy of 16 the order. 17 THE COURT: This is you. I haven't sent this 18 order to Mr. Keane yet, so this is for your 19 protection. You might make sure that Mr. Keane 20 understood what I told him and tell him an order is 21 forthcoming. 22 MR. DANDAR: I will. 23 THE COURT: I doubt he misunderstood because I 24 explained the purpose of it was I wanted him to be 25 sure that even though there may be some relevancy, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 221 1 that if there was no relevancy, that it was 2 protected. So he agreed. So I think he 3 understands. Okay? 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 THE COURT: I would ask the Church not to 6 destroy or -- well, I don't care if you destroy 7 them, that is perfectly all right. But don't 8 disseminate, I should say, the information that you 9 have received from Mr. Keane to anyone beyond the 10 lawyers in the Church, in the event I should order 11 the return of those documents. 12 MR. MOXON: Very good. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think I have the only 14 copy and it is in my briefcase, and I don't intend 15 to be disseminating it to anyone. 16 THE COURT: Good. And I believe that Mr. Moxon 17 was going to give me, at some point in time, the 20 18 documents you thought that you had taken -- 19 MR. MOXON: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Then at that point, hopefully all 21 this will be under good control. 22 Did you-all understand this order all right? 23 MR. MOXON: Yes. Fine. 24 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 25 THE COURT: It is not the best I have ever Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 222 1 done. But if it gets it done, that is fine. 2 Now, I have here -- this was delivered today in 3 the mail -- an amicus curiae brief for entry in the 4 case file. This is from Mr. Keith Henson. 5 Does anybody know anything about it? 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: I can address it briefly, your 7 Honor, though to fully address it might take a 8 little while. And my suggestion is -- 9 THE COURT: How do you know what it is? 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Because he posts it on the 11 Internet and warns us he's going to do it so we know 12 it is coming. 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: The issues are a little 15 complicated. My suggestion is we take it up when 16 you come back. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: But my request is it not be 19 filed until we have a chance to take it up. 20 THE COURT: Fair enough. I gather -- he sent 21 me three of them, one of which says "Original." So 22 how about -- I guess this is a copy for each side? 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: That would be terrific. 24 THE COURT: I'll give each of you a copy. If 25 it's not the same thing, save them, bring them back Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 223 1 to me. But there are three of them. One says 2 "Original." I'll hold on to it. We can address it 3 after the break. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I mean, what we're going to 5 suggest, your Honor, is that you not permit it, you 6 not file it. Maybe Mr. Dandar may well agree with 7 it when he takes a look at it. I don't know. But I 8 think we should take it up when you come back. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: If there is a question, it 11 would take me about ten minutes to give you 12 background. And I know you want to leave. And I 13 know that I want to leave. And I know all of the 14 other lawyers want to leave. 15 THE COURT: What I really hoped is I would have 16 time to get some stuff done today, but the hour is 17 getting late. 18 MR. DANDAR: I withdrew my two hours of 19 questioning. 20 THE COURT: Yes, you did. 21 MR. MOXON: Could we have the same agreement 22 with Mr. Dandar agreeing not to copy or distribute 23 this document, since there are issues involved 24 there? 25 THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Dandar, until I take this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 224 1 up. Now, of course, if it is already on the 2 Internet -- 3 MR. MOXON: Well, all of it is not on the 4 Internet. The attachments aren't. 5 THE COURT: If you just hold this, don't 6 distribute it until such time as I take it up. 7 MR. LIROT: We'll do so. 8 MR. DANDAR: We will do that. 9 THE COURT: Please, somebody, remind me. Let 10 me see, Madam Clerk, so I gave you an original 11 order, right? 12 THE CLERK: Yes. 13 THE COURT: And a -- something sealed? 14 THE CLERK: Yes. 15 THE COURT: I have some knowledge reports here. 16 Oh, okay, I remember those were filed. I'll take 17 those home tonight, and if I can read those I will 18 be up to date. 19 If anybody has a couple extra notebooks for the 20 clerk -- 21 MR. MOXON: What size? 22 THE COURT: I guess this size (indicating). I 23 have got some. I just know that I need to go 24 through them and see what I can throw out because 25 you all have given me plenty. I'll give you -- if Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 225 1 you'll lend her some, I promise you when this is 2 over, I'll give you all of the ones I have back. 3 MR. MOXON: Okay. 4 THE COURT: I just don't know which ones I'm 5 done with and -- and I need some of them. 6 MR. MOXON: Do you need them now? Or tomorrow? 7 THE COURT: Next week. What do you have that I 8 still need to file? I'm not going to worry about 9 this during the two-week hiatus. I might if I move 10 into my new house, my study -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Break it right in. 12 THE COURT: -- I might break it in, read some 13 of this transcript or something. 14 MR. FUGATE: Bless your heart. 15 THE COURT: Probably not, though. Okay, 16 everybody can be at ease. 17 Mr. Moxon, if you get that order done -- 18 MR. MOXON: I'll do it tonight. 19 THE COURT: Give it to me, because I'll be in 20 in the morning. 21 MR. MOXON: I'll have it delivered first thing 22 in the morning. 23 THE COURT: Wonderful. Assuming it is okay. I 24 don't know what we'll do about the list, because 25 you-all have to kind of agree on the attached list. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 226 1 And I don't imagine you can agree on it. 2 MR. MOXON: I guess we'll have a conference 3 with Mr. Keane, the three of us, or four of us, and 4 see if we can work that out. 5 THE COURT: Okay. I would say that the list -- 6 I just think this, Mr. Dandar. The list needs to be 7 broad enough to cover people that might be relevant 8 to the counterclaim, which would certainly include 9 the witnesses that have testified here and people 10 like them. 11 MR. DANDAR: But it should be on matters that 12 concern the counterclaim or the Church of 13 Scientology, but not private matters. 14 THE COURT: Not necessarily. You see, a 15 statement of a witness can be a statement that could 16 be unrelated to Lisa McPherson. It could be 17 unrelated to the counterclaim. It could be a 18 statement that says, "I despise the Church of 19 Scientology and I will do anything in my power to 20 ruin it." That could be said at a toast somewhere. 21 MR. DANDAR: That -- 22 THE COURT: They are then entitled to that. 23 They are entitled to use it if that person 24 testifies. 25 MR. DANDAR: But, again, that involves Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 227 1 Scientology. If it involves my sister going to the 2 doctor, and this is what she has to do -- 3 THE COURT: That is true. That is true. 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: We have no interest in that, by 6 the way. 7 THE COURT: No. I'm sure they don't. 8 MR. DANDAR: All right. 9 THE COURT: But, again now, we're going to have 10 to remember that the -- the person going to make the 11 decision on what is going to be turned over will 12 have to be Stacy Brooks or her counsel. 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Because, remember, if that -- that 15 order is to direct them to comply with the orders of 16 the Court. And I suppose since the latest order was 17 Judge Beach's order, that order ought to be 18 attached, maybe, if that was the latest. 19 MR. DANDAR: That is the latest order. 20 THE COURT: Except it speaks about the -- about 21 this case. Of course, you know, this case could 22 mean more than -- this case right now is the 23 wrongful death and the counterclaim. 24 MR. MOXON: Judge Quesada's order was a little 25 different. It said, "Use the witness lists plus Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 228 1 anybody else that is manifestly relevant" or 2 something like that. 3 THE COURT: But his order has been superseded 4 by Judge Beach's so his order doesn't count any 5 more. Judge Beach was sitting as special master. 6 That was a later order. Judge Quesada's order has 7 been superseded. Do not follow that order. Okay? 8 MR. DANDAR: So we'll attach Judge Beach's 9 order then. 10 THE COURT: Yes. And then, as I said, 11 Ms. Brooks was the one that will make that decision, 12 or her lawyer. 13 And, you know, you can put in there that -- why 14 should I tell somebody who has been required to turn 15 somebody over how to do it? 16 MR. DANDAR: But it should only be the people 17 on the witness list. Mr. Moxon added the search 18 list, the new list, to include my consultants, 19 myself, my brother. And that should be eliminated. 20 Patricia Greenway, who is not a witness on anybody's 21 list. Ursula Caberta, who is not a witness on 22 anyone's list. 23 THE COURT: How do you know? 24 MR. DANDAR: I know what the lists are. We 25 already have a filed list of witnesses for trial. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 229 1 They have a filed list. 2 MR. MOXON: We have not filed a witness list 3 for the counterclaim, so -- 4 THE COURT: Well, you see, you don't 5 necessarily get those documents. You get those 6 documents, and the reason why a Court would compel 7 those documents, is for impeachment purposes more 8 than anything else. So I don't know you can just 9 list a witness and get a bunch of documents. 10 MR. MOXON: Yeah, or potentially other 11 discovery purposes. Somebody, for example, that 12 works for LMT makes a statement, we wouldn't 13 necessarily call them as a witness. But if they 14 said something that goes directly to one of the 15 issues here, then obviously that would be relevant. 16 THE COURT: Well, Stacy Brooks is the one that 17 will have to decide. So try to get a list that 18 you-all can agree on, get me the order. After 19 tomorrow, you'll not get me for a couple days. 20 And, quite frankly, if you don't -- if I don't 21 have it with a list that you have agreed to, I'll 22 have to do my own order. My order will simply order 23 them to comply with the order of Judge Beach. 24 MR. MOXON: Maybe that is the simplest thing to 25 do. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 230 1 THE COURT: I think it is. And then just put 2 in there in the event of -- of -- you know, in the 3 event they're unable -- she or whoever it is, is 4 unable to determine, turn them over to the Court. 5 But I don't want them all is what I'm saying. I 6 don't want to be un -- inundated with a bunch of 7 stuff off the Internet that I could care less about 8 reading. Everything I read on here last night I 9 could care less -- 10 MR. DANDAR: I agree. 11 THE COURT: -- about. It takes hours and hours 12 of my time, and it is stuff that really isn't 13 relevant to this case at all. 14 MR. DANDAR: Except for the work product 15 E-Mail. 16 THE COURT: Well, I could have cared less about 17 that. I couldn't even understand the first thing. 18 And the other thing was simply a work product. But 19 it isn't any big deal. It just shouldn't have 20 been -- shouldn't have been given. 21 MR. MOXON: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Okay? All right, we'll see you all 23 in a couple weeks. 24 (WHEREUPON, Court stands in recess at 4:00 25 p.m.) Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 231 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 19th day of June, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500