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Subject: Dell Liebreich "I can't remember" and acceptable truths Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Message-ID: Date: Sun, 4 Aug 2002 19:10:20 -0700 (PDT) Mail-To-News-Contact: postmaster@nym.alias.net Organization: mail2news@nym.alias.net Lines: 1842 Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!news-out.visi.com!hermes.visi.com!eusc.inter.net!feed.news.nacamar.de!newscore.univie.ac.at!193.154.160.102.MISMATCH!newsfeed.Austria.EU.net!newsfeed.kpnqwest.at!anon.lcs.mit.edu!nym.alias.net!mail2news Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1541145 Dell Liebreich Testimony April 30, 2002 Ms. Leibreich has a conveniently bad memory. She says "I don't remember" 22 times here. 6 1 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, I would like to 2 call Dell Liebreich. 3 THE BAILIFF: Right this way, ma'am. 4 Stand right here and face the judge. Raise 5 your right hand and be sworn in, please. 6 (Thereupon, the oath was administered to the 7 witness.) 8 MR. ROSEN: May I approach her? 9 Your Honor, I've handed -- let the record 10 reflect I've handed you and the witness a 11 series of folders with exhibits. 12 Some of them are additional copies of 13 exhibits that were previously submitted last 14 time; and just so that Your Honor doesn't have 15 to plow through the old file, you've got 16 additional copies. That's the reason for the 17 redundancy. 18 19 THEREUPON, 20 DELL LIEBREICH, called as a witness, having 21 been duly sworn, testified as follows: 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. ROSEN: 24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, can you leave those closed in front 25 of you until I ask you to open them? 7 1 A. Oh, sure. 2 Q. Thank you, ma'am. 3 Ms. Liebreich, you are the personal 4 representative of the Estate of Lisa McPherson, right? 5 A. Right. 6 Q. You know that -- you were in court for the hearing 7 on the 19th of April; were you not? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. For that entire hearing? 10 A. Well, except for maybe a few minutes to go out. 11 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am. 12 A. Except for maybe a few minutes to the restroom. 13 Q. Okay. You are aware, ma'am, that one of the 14 issues in this case is whether the money that was provided 15 by Mr. Minton, including the money from the Swiss banks, 16 whether that was provided to the Estate for the Estate's 17 benefit or whether it was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar. 18 You're aware that that's an issue in this case? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And do you have any knowledge on that subject? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And would you tell us what your knowledge is, 23 ma'am. 24 A. It's a personal loan to Mr. Dandar. 25 Q. And that knowledge is derived from a conversation 8 1 that you had with Mr. Dandar? 2 A. Right. 3 Q. How long ago was that? 4 A. Well, from the beginning. 5 Q. When was the beginning? What year? 6 A. '97. '97, I believe it was. 7 Q. Say again? 8 A. I believe it was 1997. 9 Q. Okay. So let me see If I understand this. From 10 the very beginning, Mr. Dandar told you that this 2 million 11 dollars -- that the money, as the money came in 12 from Mr. Minton, was not for the Estate but was a personal 13 loan to Mr. Dandar, right? He told you that. 14 A. It was a personal loan to be used to pay bills for 15 the Estate, is what I understood. 16 Q. To pay what bills? 17 A. For the Estate or whatever. 18 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would object to any 19 attorney/client communication subject to this 20 question. 21 MR. ROSEN: She's already testified to 22 this fifteen times. 23 THE COURT: So you're claiming a waiver? 24 MR. ROSEN: Yeah. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, she hasn't testified to 9 1 this. She hasn't waived the privilege. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified to the purpose 4 that these loans were loans to Mr. Dandar, personal loans? 5 Have you testified to that in this case? 6 A. I don't remember whether I have or not. 7 Q. Do you remember testifying April 20th of 2002 in a 8 deposition that these loans were loans -- that the monies 9 from Mr. Minton were personal loans to Mr. Dandar? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. I think she 11 needs to be shown the deposition. 12 MR. ROSEN: Do you remember testifying to 13 that? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't recall. If you show 15 it to me -- 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. It's ten days ago, ma'am. Are you saying you 18 don't remember your testimony to this effect ten days ago? 19 A. What was your question again? 20 Q. Do you remember testifying at deposition ten days 21 ago -- Saturday, April 20th -- that the monies from 22 Mr. Minton were a loan to Mr. Dandar, a personal loan to 23 Mr. Dandar? Do you remember that? 24 A. I probably did. 25 Q. Was it probably true or probably not true? 10 1 A. It's probably true. 2 Q. Uh-huh. So let's see If I understand this. 3 From the very beginning in October of 4 '97 -- sometime in '97 -- Mr. Dandar has told you from time 5 to time when he receives money, right? 6 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. That's 7 privileged. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. LIROT: It mischaracterizes the 10 evidence as well. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. Now, is it your understanding -- your 13 understanding that this was a personal -- that these were 14 personal loans to Mr. Dandar, is that understanding based 15 on anything other than what Mr. Dandar told you? 16 A. Was it based on anything else? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. Well, that's the way I understood it. 19 Q. Well, let me rephrase the question, perhaps. Did 20 anybody else ever tell you that these loans -- these monies 21 from Mr. Minton were loans to Mr. Dandar personally? 22 A. I don't recall. 23 Q. Do you recall having conversations with Mr. Minton 24 on the subject? 25 A. I don't recall having any conversations with 11 1 Mr. Minton about the loan. 2 Q. Do you recall thanking Mr. Minton for his donation 3 to, quote, the Estate? 4 A. I thanked him many times for the money that he put 5 up. 6 Q. Do you recall thanking him for the Estate for the 7 money that he has donated to the Estate? Do you recall 8 that, ma'am? 9 A. I might have said that. I don't recall. 10 Q. Well, might it have been true when you said it? 11 A. Well, I thanked him for his donations. As far as 12 I'm concerned, it was a loan to Dan, but... 13 Q. Okay. You understand that a second issue in this 14 case is whether or not Mr. Dandar is free to use this money 15 for his own -- any purpose he wants, including buying 16 himself a car, or whether he has to use this money from 17 Mr. Minton only for the expenses of the Estate in the 18 wrongful death case? You understand that's an issue in 19 this case? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Do you have any knowledge on this subject? 22 A. He can use it any way he wants to, is what my 23 understanding is. 24 Q. Okay. And is your understanding based on anything 25 other than your conversations with Mr. Dandar? 12 1 A. I believe I've heard Mr. Minton state that he 2 could spend it for whatever he wanted to. 3 Q. When did you hear Mr. Minton say that? 4 A. I don't recall. 5 Q. Well, can you recall what year it was? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Well, ma'am, help us out. Sometime between 1997 8 and April 30th, 2002? Do you think you could help us out 9 and try to remember? 10 A. He probably said it more than once. I don't 11 recall. 12 Q. Can you remember any occasion on which you heard 13 him say that? 14 A. No, no, sir. 15 Q. Okay. Well, Ms. Liebreich, let's see If I've got 16 an understanding of your testimony. 17 As far as you know, based on your conversations 18 with Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar could use that two million 19 dollars any way he wanted to use it. He could buy a car 20 with it. He could buy a house with it, buy his wife an 21 anniversary present, right? Any way he wanted to, right? 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. These are statements 23 from Mr. Dandar to the client. 24 MR. ROSEN: No. I'm asking about her 25 understanding. 13 1 MR. LIROT: Same thing, Judge. It's 2 privileged. 3 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe so. 4 THE COURT: I think she's waived that. 5 MR. ROSEN: Yeah. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Is that your understanding? 8 A. He could spend it any way he wanted to. 9 Q. And he wasn't required to spend one nickel on 10 behalf of the Estate, right? Look at me, ma'am, not 11 Mr. Dandar. 12 A. Do I have to look at you? 13 Q. Well, I'll tell you what. Why don't you look over 14 that way instead of looking at Mr. Dandar. 15 Did you hear my question, Ms. Liebreich? 16 A. What is your question? 17 Q. He wasn't required to spend any part of it for the 18 Estate, was he? Is that your understanding? 19 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 20 Q. Okay. Now, what is your understanding, ma'am, on 21 the subject of who was to repay this loan? And let me be 22 more specific. 23 Assuming that there was a recovery in the 24 wrongful death case, either by verdict or settlement, was 25 Mr. Minton's monies supposed to be repaid to him? 14 1 MR. LIROT: Objection. Lack of foundation, 2 speculation. 3 BY MR. ROSEN: 4 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject? 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Do you have any knowledge on that subject of 8 whether there was an agreement or understanding to repay 9 Mr. Minton the money he advanced out of any settlement or 10 judgment? 11 A. Mr. Minton said that if there was money left over, 12 if we had more than we wanted, that he felt like he should 13 be repaid. 14 Q. And who was supposed to repay him? 15 A. Well, Ken would repay him. 16 Q. You're sure the Estate wasn't going to repay him 17 the money? 18 A. I don't know that much about the law. I don't 19 know. 20 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you testified under oath that 21 it was the Estate's obligation to repay the loan from 22 Mr. Minton? 23 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. 24 MR. ROSEN: Have you or have you not? 25 THE COURT: Just a moment. State your 15 1 objection. 2 MR. LIROT: The objection is if he's 3 asking about testimony under oath, he has to 4 identify the date, time and place of such 5 testimony. 6 MR. ROSEN: I don't believe I have to do 7 that until I impeach her, Your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Well, that's the beginning of 9 the process. 10 MR. ROSEN: Okay. I will come back to it. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. You heard testimony last time you were in court 13 about these two Swiss bank checks, one for $500,000 in May 14 of 2000 and another one for $250,000 in March of this year? 15 You heard that testimony? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Did Mr. Dandar ever give you an accounting of the 18 monies that he had received from Mr. Minton and from these 19 two bank checks? 20 A. It wasn't necessary. 21 Q. Is the answer, no, he never gave you an 22 accounting? Is that the answer, Ms. Liebreich? 23 A. That's what I'm saying. 24 Q. Is it correct, Ms. Liebreich, that Mr. Dandar 25 never told you how much money he had received? 16 1 A. He has told me how much money he received. 2 Q. When did he tell you that? 3 A. Every time he received money, he told me. 4 Q. So that when he received the two Swiss bank 5 checks, he told you at the time he received them? 6 A. Yes, he did. 7 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, do you recall being deposed 8 one day after the last hearing before Judge Baird, 9 Saturday, the 20th of April of this year; do you recall 10 being deposed? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. I've put in front of you Exhibit 61 which is the 13 transcript of your deposition of that date. I'll read from 14 Page 311. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, objection. She's not yet 16 had a chance to review it. We did not waive 17 the signing of this deposition. She's been out 18 of town. She hasn't had a chance to review 19 this deposition, nor has she signed it at this 20 point in time. There's been no errata sheet, 21 so it's premature... 22 THE COURT: Well, I think he can show it 23 to her and she can determine whether or not 24 those were the questions and those were, you 25 know, her answers. 17 1 And if she has some objection or some 2 dispute as to whether or not the court reporter 3 accurately, you know, transcribed her 4 responses, then we can deal with that. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. I direct your attention to Page 311 starting with 7 the question on Line 7: 8 Question, "When did you last receive an 9 accounting of the funds that had come in for the use of the 10 Estate?" 11 Answer appears on Line 19, "It's been in the 12 last few days, last week or so." 13 "Well, you don't mean sitting in court 14 yesterday when you heard about the two million dollars from 15 Mr. Minton. Is that what you're referring to?" 16 Answer, "Yes." 17 Did you give those answers to those questions, 18 ma'am? 19 A. That's when I understood how much he had paid? I 20 knew before that. 21 Q. Did you give these answers, ma'am, to these 22 questions? 23 A. I haven't had a chance to look over this and 24 correct it yet. 25 Q. Take a chance right now, ma'am. Read the question 18 1 and answer on Page 311. 2 A. Ken tells me every time he gets money. 3 Q. Ma'am, let me focus you specifically on the 4 question and answer, Lines 21 to 25, Page 311. Do you 5 remember being asked that question and giving that answer, 6 ten days ago? 7 A. I remember giving the answer, yes, yes. 8 Q. Okay. Now, was the answer true at the time you 9 gave it? 10 A. Well, I heard it then, but he also tells me every 11 time he gets money. 12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, listen to my question, please. 13 We'll get done a whole lot faster. 14 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'd object. We're 15 approaching the badgering limit here. 16 THE COURT: I don't think so. 17 BY MR. ROSEN: 18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this will go a lot faster if you'd 19 try to please listen to my questions. They're very 20 specific. And try to answer what I ask you. 21 Do you remember giving that answer to that 22 question? 23 A. I see that I gave it. I guess I did. 24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, was the answer true when you gave 25 it? 19 1 A. I probably thought it was, but I can see that... 2 Q. Ms. Liebreich, is the answer true today? Yes or 3 no, ma'am. 4 A. Well, I heard about it then, but I also heard 5 about it before that, so it's true there the way I read it. 6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, when was the first time you were 7 told that there was a Mr. Minton who had contributed money 8 for the Estate's wrongful death case? When did you first 9 learn of that? 10 A. Back in 1997. I don't remember the date. 11 Q. 1997? 12 A. I believe that's when. 13 Q. And was the source of that information Mr. Dandar, 14 your attorney? 15 A. Right. 16 Q. How did he tell you this? 17 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 18 MR. ROSEN: Excuse me, waived. Counsel 19 put it in a letter. He said, "I consulted my 20 client," in the letter to Mr. Minton, October 21 of '97. 22 "I've consulted my client, and she's 23 agreed to accept your donation." 24 He waived the privilege in the letter. 25 MR. LIROT: The letter speaks for itself. 20 1 Anything beyond that hasn't been waived. 2 THE COURT: I'll overrule the objection. 3 THE WITNESS: What was the question again? 4 MR. ROSEN: Can I ask you to read that 5 back, please? 6 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "And was 7 the source of that information Mr. Dandar, your 8 attorney?" 9 Answer, "Right." 10 Question, "How did he tell you this?" 11 THE WITNESS: Well, he told me over the 12 phone and he sent me a letter. 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Do you have a copy of that letter that he sent 15 you? 16 A. I gave it to Ken. Ken has it. 17 Q. Ken has it. 18 Ma'am, I'm going to try real hard to make my 19 questions real simple. Do you have a copy of the letter 20 that Ken sent you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Can I see it? 23 A. Not with me, I don't have. 24 Q. Where is it? 25 A. I don't know if I have it in my purse or not. 21 1 Q. Do you have your purse? 2 A. I don't know. 3 Q. May I hand you your purse? 4 A. No, thank you. 5 Q. Do you want your attorney to hand you your purse? 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, if Counsel could identify 7 what letter he's referring to, we'll locate it. 8 MR. ROSEN: The witness's letter from her 9 attorney to her advising her of Mr. Minton's 10 gift or donation, whatever you want to call it. 11 MR. LIROT: Is this the letter that was 12 marked as an exhibit and entered into evidence 13 today? 14 MR. ROSEN: I don't know. The witness is 15 testifying to a letter she received from 16 Mr. Dandar, Counsel. How would I know that? 17 How would I know? 18 MR. LIROT: Because you said it was the 19 letter that waived the privilege. 20 MR. ROSEN: No, she said that. 21 THE COURT: No, she said that. And I 22 think the point he's trying to make is he 23 doesn't know if this is a letter that was part 24 of the evidence or not. It may be another 25 letter. 22 1 MR. LIROT: We'll verify that, Judge. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, are you sure that in your 4 testimony that you learned about Mr. Minton and his 5 contribution of money in 1997 rather than 1998; are you 6 sure about that as you sit here today? 7 A. I knew about it before he sent the first check. 8 Q. The first check you know was sent in October of 9 '97. 10 A. Okay. I knew about it before he got the check. 11 Q. So, in other words, Ms. Liebreich, you have a very 12 firm recollection as you're sitting here today that you 13 knew about Mr. Minton making this contribution of money 14 before he made the first -- sent the first check in October 15 of '97. You're confident about that? 16 A. Yes, because Ken called me and he said -- 17 Q. Fine, if the answer is, yes, are you certain about 18 it. Let's turn to Exhibit 17. 19 A. What page? 20 Q. Exhibit 17 is the next folder in front of you, 21 Ms. Liebreich. 22 A. Okay. 23 Q. This is portions of the deposition of Dell 24 Liebreich taken May 24th, 1999. I ask you to turn, 25 ma'am -- 23 1 A. To what? 2 Q. -- to Page 164. And I will read to you starting 3 on Line 12. 4 Do you remember -- my question will be if you 5 remember being asked these questions and giving these 6 answers. 7 Question, "How did you first learn that 8 Mr. Minton was going to, I believe your words were, give 9 money or help finance the lawsuit?" 10 Answer, "Ken told me, I believe." 11 Question, "When was that approximately?" 12 Answer, "I can't remember the dates. It was 13 probably -- it was before we went down there in December of 14 '98, but I don't remember. It could have been November or 15 October. I don't remember." 16 Let me stop there. Do you remember being asked 17 those questions and giving those answers? 18 A. Right. I did not -- 19 Q. So at that time, your recollection was it was just 20 before you came to Clearwater in December of '98, either a 21 month before or two months before, October or November, 22 right? 23 A. I was mistaken. 24 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you got a copy of this transcript 25 after it was prepared? 24 1 A. I'm sure I did. 2 Q. And it is your practice to read your deposition 3 transcripts and to make corrections if you've made 4 mistakes, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You didn't make any corrections to this; did you, 7 ma'am? 8 A. I don't recall. 9 Q. Huh? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection, Your Honor. The 11 transcript speaks for itself. It says, "I 12 don't remember." 13 Rule of completeness. 14 MR. ROSEN: I read the, "I don't 15 remember." 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Did you make any changes? 18 A. I do not remember. 19 Q. Oh, you don't remember if you made any changes. 20 A. No, I don't. 21 Q. Ms. Liebreich, this deposition is three years ago. 22 Would you agree with me that your sworn testimony given 23 three years ago, your recollection might perhaps have been 24 better then than it is today? 25 A. It depends on what it was. I don't know. 25 1 Q. Listen to my question, ma'am: Would you agree 2 with me that your recollection of the events when you 3 testified three years ago would be perhaps better than your 4 recollection is today? 5 A. Not necessarily. 6 Q. So your testimony now is that Mr. Dandar told you 7 about this in October of '97 before the first check? 8 A. That's right. 9 Q. Ms. Liebreich, you have been deposed in this case 10 and in the wrongful death case several times, right? 11 A. Right. 12 Q. Do you agree with me that there is not one single 13 page, not one word of any deposition, in which you have 14 testified that you were told about Mr. Minton and his 15 contribution in October of '97? 16 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. 17 BY MR. ROSEN: 18 Q. Do you agree with me? 19 A. No. 20 MR. LIROT: Objection, date, time and place of 21 any such deposition. And I would also assert 22 the best evidence rule. I think the 23 correspondence Counsel refers to would be the 24 best evidence of whether any communications 25 took place. 26 1 MR. ROSEN: I didn't ask her about 2 correspondence, Your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I understand. The objection 4 is overruled. 5 THE WITNESS: What was the question again? 6 MR. ROSEN: Could I ask you to read back? 7 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Do you 8 agree with me that there is not one single 9 page, not one word of any deposition, in which 10 you have testified that you were told about 11 Mr. Minton and his contribution in October of 12 '97?" 13 THE WITNESS: I don't remember. 14 BY MR. ROSEN: 15 Q. Okay. Let's continue on on Page 164 of your 16 deposition transcript of May of 1999 starting with Line 22. 17 Do you remember being asked these questions and 18 giving these answers: 19 "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton 20 has given to you and your family with regard to financing 21 the lawsuit?" 22 Answer, "I think I saw on the internet a 23 couple -- a couple of hundred thousand or something like 24 that. I'm not sure." 25 Do you remember giving that answer? 27 1 A. I probably did, if it's here. 2 Q. Was it true at the time? 3 A. I didn't remember, probably. 4 Q. Do you think it's true now, Ms. Liebreich, this 5 answer? 6 A. No. 7 Q. It's not? It's a lie? Ma'am? This answer is 8 untrue? 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object. This 10 is calling for the witness to make some kind of 11 a legal conclusion as to the designation of 12 these funds. 13 And I think that Counsel is taking 14 advantage of a layperson's confusion over 15 certain issues about monies to make a big deal 16 out of something that quite candidly, Judge, I 17 don't think there's any semblance of any 18 misrepresentation or anything that's untrue. 19 I think if you look at the deposition, she 20 says, "I can't remember; I'm not sure," and 21 Counsel keeps trying to make her look like 22 she's been untruthful about this testimony, and 23 I think that clearly crosses the line of 24 badgering this witness. 25 THE COURT: I don't think so. Overruled. 28 1 BY MR. ROSEN: 2 Q. Answer my question, please, ma'am. 3 A. I'm not sure. 4 Q. Well, I want you to follow this for a moment. If 5 what you're telling us today, that Mr. Dandar told you 6 regularly as he received money from Mr. Minton, why would 7 it be necessary for you to find out about that on the 8 internet? 9 A. It wasn't necessary. I just happened to read it. 10 And he had already told me. I didn't keep up with it. 11 Q. Uh-huh. 12 You didn't say, "Mr. Dandar had told me how 13 much." 14 You said, "I think I saw it on the internet," 15 right? 16 A. He always told me. 17 Q. That's what you said in your deposition, right? 18 A. That's what I said there, yes. 19 Q. Okay. Now, you will notice in the question the 20 question asks, "How much money do you understand Mr. Minton 21 has given to you and your family to finance the lawsuit?" 22 You didn't say, wait a minute, he hasn't given 23 me anything. All he did was loan money to Mr. Dandar as a 24 personal loan. You didn't say that; did you? 25 A. I didn't think it was necessary. 29 1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, at the time you gave this answer, 2 did you have in mind and had you been told by your Counsel 3 that the money was a personal loan to him, to Mr. Dandar? 4 A. I'm sure it was, yes. 5 Q. So that the correct answer as of May of '99 when 6 you were deposed would have been Mr. Minton hasn't given, 7 quote, you and your family -- he hasn't given you zero, not 8 one cent, right? 9 A. It was given to Mr. Dandar to use as he saw fit. 10 Q. And Mr. Dandar was present during this deposition 11 defending you, right? 12 A. I'm sure he was. 13 Q. Yeah, okay. Let's go back to one other thing in 14 this deposition and we'll move on. 15 Let's look at -- I will come back to that 16 exhibit. 17 Let's move on to the next one. 18 There's a folder in front of you that says 19 Exhibit 33. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Would you open that one, please? 22 A. It's open. 23 Q. This is an affidavit of yours. Do you recognize 24 this? 25 A. Yes. 30 1 Q. And you signed this affidavit in December of 2000, 2 right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. I want to direct your attention to Paragraph 2. 5 The first part denies that there was ever any binding 6 agreement. And then it says -- well, I will read the whole 7 thing so I don't take it out of context -- that affiant has 8 never entered into a binding agreement with Robert Minton 9 nor the Lisa McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to any 10 disposition of any funds obtained by the Estate of Lisa 11 McPherson in the wrongful death action pending against the 12 Church of Scientology in excess of any costs advanced by 13 Robert Minton to defray costs in litigation. 14 Was that affidavit true at the time you signed 15 it, ma'am? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. So what you're saying in that affidavit is that 18 Robert Minton advanced monies for the Estate's expenses in 19 litigation. 20 MR. LIROT: Objection, mischaracterizes the 21 evidence. 22 MR. ROSEN: Isn't that what you were 23 saying? 24 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document 25 speaks for itself. 31 1 THE COURT: Sustained. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Is that what you meant to say? 4 MR. LIROT: Objection. The document speaks for 5 itself. 6 THE COURT: The objection was sustained. 7 BY MR. ROSEN: 8 Q. Okay. In truth, according to your testimony 9 today, Ms. Liebreich, Robert Minton has not advanced one 10 dime to, quote, defray costs in litigation; is that right? 11 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Is that right, ma'am? 15 A. He has not or has? 16 Q. He has not advanced not one dime to, quote, defray 17 the costs of litigation, closed quote. 18 A. Well, he has. 19 Q. He has? Can you show me where he has given you 20 money to defray the costs of litigation? 21 A. It's through Ken. He gave money to Ken. He 22 loaned money to Ken. 23 Q. He gave money to Ken that Ken had no obligation to 24 use to defray the costs of litigation, right? That's your 25 testimony. 32 1 A. I don't understand the law. 2 Q. Okay. Could you turn to Exhibit 53, ma'am, that's 3 in front of you? This is a deposition of you taken May 4 24th, 1999. Do you see that? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Turn to Page 209, please, ma'am, starting on Line 7 6. 8 Question, "As to what is left over after 9 Mr. Dandar is paid and the expenses are paid, what have you 10 discussed would represent the bulk of that as going to a 11 cult awareness group, what percentage of what is left 12 over?" 13 Answer, "We didn't set a figure. We have no 14 set percentage or anything. 15 MR. LIROT: Objection, lack of foundation. 16 THE COURT: Lack of foundation? Foundation for 17 what? 18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what they're 19 talking about, expenses are paid, bulk of what, 20 what percent of what is left over. Left over 21 from what? There's been no foundation talking 22 about what global thing we're talking about 23 here and what's left over. 24 MR. ROSEN: I will withdraw the question 25 and come back to it. I will put in a 33 1 foundation so Counsel will be satisfied. 2 BY MR. ROSEN: 3 Q. Let's turn to Page 252 for a moment. 4 So here again, Ms. Liebreich, I'm going to ask 5 you whether you remember being asked these questions and 6 giving these answers under oath, Line 14: 7 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is 8 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding 9 the litigation?" 10 Answer, "Right." 11 Did you give that answer in 1999, ma'am? 12 A. I did. 13 Q. Was it true at the time? 14 A. Well, that's kind of the understanding, but it's 15 nothing... 16 Q. No. Did you believe that your answer was true at 17 the time that you gave it? 18 A. Unless I changed it, I did. 19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am. 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. On May 24th, 1999 you believed that that answer 22 was true, right? 23 A. Apparently that's what I thought at the time. 24 Q. And you never signed any errata sheet and you 25 never changed that answer, right? 34 1 A. I don't remember. 2 Q. So tell me, Ms. Liebreich, what has happened 3 between May 24th, 1999 and today which has caused you to 4 change your understanding of the money from Mr. Minton? 5 What's happened? 6 A. Well, I have gone back and read some things that I 7 didn't remember. 8 Q. Tell me what you read. 9 A. That letter that Ken sent to me. 10 Q. The one that we have to have produced, yeah. What 11 else have you read that caused you to change your mind? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. Huh? 14 A. I do not remember. 15 Q. Well, ma'am, with all due respect, if you read 16 something, you read it in the last ten days, right? 17 A. Not necessarily. 18 Q. Well, when did you read something that made you 19 change your mind, a year ago? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Ma'am, you've spent a good deal of time with your 22 Counsel since this motion was filed to disqualify 23 Mr. Dandar; haven't you? Haven't you? 24 A. Some time, yes. 25 Q. Some time? Spend all day yesterday? 35 1 A. No. 2 Q. Could you help me out and just think for a moment, 3 with the time you spent in connection with the last hearing 4 on April 19th and the time you spent in preparation for 5 this hearing, tell me, just in the last ten, twelve days, 6 what is it that you have seen that has caused you to change 7 your testimony about the Minton money other than this 8 letter which we're waiting for you to produce? Other than 9 that. Anything else? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection, calls for privileged 11 communications. 12 THE COURT: Well, to the extent that her 13 answer includes privileged communications, then 14 it would be sustained. 15 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Just identify the document. Just tell me it's a 18 letter from so and so to so and so, it's a deposition, it's 19 an affidavit. 20 Tell me what you've seen, ma'am, that's caused 21 you to change your testimony. 22 A. I don't remember. 23 Q. You don't remember? Okay. Well, maybe you will 24 have a chance to think about it over lunch and then maybe 25 you'll be able to tell us. Let's move on to Exhibit 32. 36 1 Do you have Exhibit 32 in front of you, Ms. Liebreich? 2 A. I'm getting it. 3 Q. Okay. Good. This is another portion of the same 4 deposition of May 24th, 1999 of you, you being represented 5 by Ken Dandar. 6 I want you to turn to Page 173, and I want to 7 direct your attention to the questions and answers starting 8 on Line 10 and going through Line 17. 9 And I will ask you again whether you remember 10 being asked these questions and giving these answers under 11 sworn oath, ma'am. 12 Question, "Well, do you consider the money that 13 Mr. Minton has given to be money for the benefit of the 14 Estate of Lisa McPherson?" 15 Answer, "Yes." 16 Question, "So it is not Mr. Dandar's money to 17 go buy his wife an anniversary gift or himself some 18 personal item; is that correct?" 19 Answer, "Right." 20 Did you give those answers? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And you gave them under the same oath that you 23 took before taking the witness stand today, right, in this 24 courtroom? 25 A. Right. 37 1 Q. Ms. Liebreich, are those answers true? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Were they true when you gave them on May 24th, 4 1999? 5 A. To my best understanding. 6 Q. And they're true today; aren't they, ma'am? 7 A. Well -- 8 Q. Because if you say they're not, I'm going to ask 9 you what caused you to change your mind, so think about it. 10 Are these answers true today or not? 11 A. The money was a loan to Mr. Dandar. I -- 12 Q. Are these answers true today? Yes or no. 13 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. He's 14 interrupting the witness. 15 THE COURT: The witness was not being 16 responsive. 17 THE WITNESS: It's a loan to him. I feel 18 like he can do what he wants to with it. 19 BY MR. ROSEN: 20 Q. I'm going to ask you one more time, Ms. Liebreich. 21 I just read you questions and answers from Line 10 to Line 22 17. 23 I ask you again. Are those answers that you 24 gave to those two questions, are they true today? Yes or 25 no, ma'am. 38 1 A. Well, I still say it's a loan to him. 2 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, you understand what the oath 3 is that you've taken to swear to tell the truth, right? 4 A. I tell the truth. 5 Q. And you wouldn't commit perjury in this courtroom 6 just because Mr. Dandar asked you to; would you? 7 A. Never. Mr. Dandar would never ask me to commit 8 perjury. 9 Q. So when you testified earlier today at the 10 beginning of this examination that it was your 11 understanding that this was a personal loan to Mr. Dandar 12 from Mr. Minton for Mr. Dandar to use any way he wanted, 13 including buying his wife an anniversary gift, Mr. Dandar 14 didn't tell you to say that; you decided to say that, 15 right? 16 A. I said it. 17 Q. Okay. Let's move on to Page 174 of the same 18 deposition. 19 Line 14, just so we understand that you weren't 20 asked this question once, Ms. Liebreich, you were asked 21 this question many times, Line 14: 22 "Is it your understanding that Mr. Minton is 23 donating the money to the Estate for purposes of funding 24 the litigation?" 25 Answer, "Right." 39 1 Did you give that answer under oath, ma'am? 2 A. Yes, because that's what he's spending it for. 3 Q. Was it true at the time, ma'am? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Is it true today? 6 A. That's what he's spending it for. 7 Q. That's what who is spending it for? 8 A. Ken is spending the money for that. 9 Q. For what? 10 A. For the litigation. 11 Q. How do you know that? Have you ever gotten an 12 accounting of what he's spent of the 2 million? Yes or no, 13 ma'am. 14 A. I'll take his word for it. 15 Q. Okay. Well, since you're going to tell me you 16 take his word for it, tell me what he told you on the 17 subject. 18 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. ROSEN: I think, Your Honor, this is 21 calling for it, this privileged -- 22 MR. LIROT: There's no foundation for 23 that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Objection sustained. 25 BY MR. ROSEN: 40 1 Q. Was it true on May 24th, 1999 that it was your 2 understanding that Mr. Minton donated the money to the 3 Estate? Yes or no, ma'am. 4 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 BY MR. ROSEN: 7 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you ever made a tape recording 8 thanking Mr. Minton for his donations to the Estate? 9 A. The only recording that I recall was -- I believe 10 it was the second anniversary of the trust. And someone -- 11 I believe it was Mark Bunker -- called and said he was 12 making a tape -- it might have been someone else -- and 13 wanted to send Bob a thank-you tape. And I did say to him 14 how much I appreciated what he had done. And I don't 15 remember what I said, but I -- which I did appreciate what 16 he did. 17 Q. Now, on that tape, ma'am, you said that you wanted 18 to thank Mr. Minton for the money he had given to the 19 Estate to fund the wrongful death case, right? 20 A. I don't remember what I said. 21 MR. LIROT: Objection. Your Honor, we need to 22 see the tape. 23 MR. ROSEN: You don't remember? 24 THE COURT: Just a second. When there's 25 an objection, I'd appreciate it if you could 41 1 please just hold off. 2 MR. ROSEN: I'm sorry, Your Honor. I 3 apologize. 4 THE COURT: Your objection is? 5 MR. LIROT: We need to see the tape if 6 he's going to ask her questions about what she 7 knows about this tape. 8 THE COURT: I think he can ask her 9 questions without having the tape here. If it 10 becomes an issue, maybe we'll have to get the 11 tape. If she knows, fine. If she doesn't, 12 fine. Let's find out what her response is. 13 THE WITNESS: I told you what I 14 remembered, thanking him. I don't remember 15 word by word what I said. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Well, let me see if I can help refresh your 18 recollection with your testimony of ten days ago. Can you 19 turn to Exhibit 61, please, ma'am, Page 354. 20 A. 61? 21 Q. Yeah, Exhibit 61. 22 A. Page what? 23 Q. Page 354. See it? 24 And in the first several lines you're referring 25 to this tape on the second anniversary just as you've just 42 1 said, and we come down to the question on Line 12. 2 "You thanked him," him being Mr. Minton, "for 3 the money he had given to the Estate to fund the case." 4 Answer, "Yes, yes." 5 Do you remember giving those answers? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Were those answers true at the time? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. So at the time that you answered this under 10 oath, you were referring to the statement on the tape in 11 which you thanked Mr. Minton for giving money, a, to the 12 Estate and, b, to fund the wrongful death case, right? 13 A. Mr. Dandar was paying the expenses out of that 14 money. 15 MR. ROSEN: Move to strike it as not 16 responsive, Your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 BY MR. ROSEN: 19 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Dandar tell you who the Swiss 20 bank checks were from? 21 A. He didn't know. 22 Q. Is that what he said to you? 23 A. He told me he didn't know who they were from. 24 Q. When did he tell you that, ma'am? 25 A. Well, the day he received them. 43 1 Q. So, in other words, you have a recollection in 2 March of the year -- excuse me -- in May of the year 2000 3 that Mr. Dandar said I just got this check -- in words or 4 substance -- I just got a Swiss bank check for $500,000 and 5 I don't know whose money it is. Is that what he said to 6 you in words or substance? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection, attorney/client 8 privilege. 9 THE COURT: I think the privilege has been 10 waived. She's already testified to it. 11 Overruled. 12 BY MR. ROSEN: 13 Q. Is that your testimony? 14 A. He called me, yes, and told me, he says, "I don't 15 know who it's from." 16 Q. I want you to think about this conversation. What 17 time of day was this? 18 A. Two years ago? I have no idea. 19 Q. I can't hear you, ma'am. 20 A. I have no earthly idea. 21 Q. What day of the week was it? 22 A. I don't know. 23 Q. So is it correct that the only thing you remember 24 about this conversation on the telephone is Mr. Dandar 25 calling you and saying, "I just got a check for $500,000 44 1 and I don't know who it's from." 2 Is that it? 3 A. Right, that's right. 4 Q. Do you remember anything else about that 5 conversation? 6 A. I didn't ask him and he didn't tell me that I 7 remember. 8 Q. So he didn't tell you, for example, who handed him 9 the check, huh? 10 A. I didn't ask. 11 Q. And he didn't say? 12 A. I do not remember if he did. 13 Q. And he didn't say anything about some mysterious 14 fat man in Switzerland being the one who donated the money; 15 did he? 16 A. I don't remember. He might have. 17 Q. You don't remember -- as you sit here today, you 18 don't remember any mention of any fat man in this 19 conversation of May of 2000; do you, ma'am? 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Okay. But you're sure that he told you about this 22 in March of -- in May of 2000. That, you're certain of, 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Exhibit 61 again. And I 45 1 would like to go through a couple of other portions of your 2 testimony of April 20th. 3 Let's start with Page 400, ma'am. 4 Bottom of 400, top of 401, question, "You heard 5 yesterday the assertions that Mr. Dandar bought some 6 property with some of this money?" 7 Answer, "Yeah, I heard that." 8 Question, "Do you know it's true?" 9 Answer, "I'm sure it is not." 10 Question, "Why?" 11 Answer, "Because he told me it was not true." 12 Did Mr. Dandar tell you it was not true that he 13 used some of the Minton/Swiss money to buy real estate? Is 14 that what you're saying here? 15 A. He didn't tell me that. 16 Q. Did Mr. Dandar tell you it is not true that he 17 used any of Minton's money to buy any real estate? 18 A. He said they're lying or something like that. He 19 didn't do it. 20 Q. Got you. And continuing on to Page 401, after you 21 say it's not true, question, "You wouldn't want him," 22 meaning Mr. Dandar, "to do that; would you?" 23 Answer, "No." 24 Do you see that? 25 A. What line is it? 46 1 Q. Lines 5, 6 and 7 on Page 401. 2 A. I see it. 3 Q. And that was the truth, right? 4 A. Well, he wouldn't do it. 5 Q. And you didn't want him to use any of that money 6 from Mr. Minton to buy real estate or something for 7 himself; is that right? 8 A. If he wanted to, he could. 9 Q. Huh? 10 A. If he wanted to, he could. 11 Q. But you didn't want him to do that, right? 12 A. Well, I didn't want him to, but it would be all 13 right. 14 Q. Let's go to Page 469, bottom of the page, Line 19. 15 This is all your testimony of ten days ago, ma'am. 16 Question, "You became aware of that through a 17 conversation with Mr. Dandar, that he had received $250,000 18 in March?" 19 Answer, "Yes." 20 That's March of 2002. You remember that, 21 right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he 24 was going to do with that money?" 25 Answer, "Well, I assumed he was going to pay 47 1 bills. He was going to go out --" 2 Excuse me. 3 "I assumed he was going to pay bills." 4 Is that what he told you? 5 MR. LIROT: Objection, Judge. There's clearly 6 a comma, a the missing page. 7 MR. ROSEN: Counsel is right. I just 8 noticed it. Page 470 is missing. Let me start 9 again at the bottom of 69. 10 BY MR. ROSEN: 11 Q. Question, "What was your understanding of what he 12 was going to do with that money?" 13 Answer, "Well, I assumed he's going to pay 14 bills, just like he had with the other money." 15 "Pay bills in this case?" Question. 16 Answer, "Right, in the wrongful death case." 17 Did Mr. Dandar tell you he used the money to 18 pay bills in the wrongful death case? 19 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 20 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I 21 don't know what you're reading from. 22 THE COURT: Overruled. 23 MR. ROSEN: Huh? 24 THE WITNESS: I don't have that page. I 25 don't know what you're reading. 48 1 BY MR. ROSEN: 2 Q. I'm reading from your deposition. Do you want me 3 to read it again? 4 A. Can I have a copy of it? 5 Q. Yeah. Here is Page 470. 6 A. Well, 470 is not in here. 7 Q. Here. 8 A. What was your question? 9 MR. ROSEN: Can you read back? 10 THE COURT REPORTER: Question, "Did Mr. Dandar 11 tell you he used the money to pay bills in the wrongful 12 death case?" 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Is that what he told you? 15 A. I'm sure he did. 16 Q. I will read to you from Line 15 -- starting at 17 Line 15, Page 470. 18 Question, "And it was your understanding he was 19 going to cover expenses in this case with that 20 money -- that money being the $250,000 in March of 21 2002 -- right? 22 Answer, "Right." 23 "And that's all he was going to do with it, 24 right?" 25 Mr. Dandar objects. 49 1 Answer, "As far as I know." 2 Question, "Okay. I mean, you didn't think 3 somebody -- and then to the top of 471 -- was going to go 4 out and buy a warehouse or something with it, did you? 5 Answer, "No." 6 Were those answers true when you gave them ten 7 days ago? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. So you expected that Mr. Dandar was going to use 10 all of the $250,000 that he got in March of 2002 to pay 11 bills and for expenses in the wrongful death case; is that 12 right, ma'am? 13 MR. LIROT: Objection. Her assumptions are 14 irrelevant. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Is that right, ma'am? 18 A. That's what I thought, I guess. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Rosen, we're going to 20 have to break. 21 MR. ROSEN: Okay. 22 THE COURT: We're going to take a break for 23 lunch and return at 1:30. 24 (Thereupon, the luncheon recess was held.) 25 THE COURT: Ms. Liebreich, if you will resume. 50 1 You're still under oath, ma'am. 2 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, may I approach? 3 This is substitute Exhibit 61 that has the 4 missing page in it. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. Ms. Liebreich, have you had a chance during the 7 luncheon recess to visit with your purse? 8 A. To visit with whom? 9 Q. Your purse. 10 A. It's not in my purse. 11 Q. What do you think happened to this letter you're 12 telling us about? 13 A. It's at home, I'm sure, in my files. 14 Q. You left it at home in Texas? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. When is the last time you saw it, ma'am? 17 A. Probably a couple of weeks ago. I don't remember. 18 Q. You just forgot to bring it with you; did you? 19 A. Apparently. 20 Q. Okay. Ms. Liebreich, before I continue to review 21 with you your prior deposition testimony, I would like to 22 ask you something to make sure you have an understanding of 23 something. 24 You know that in this case before Judge Baird 25 that not only is the Estate a defendant but you are a 51 1 personal defendant? You know that, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You know that the Plaintiff is looking for a 4 judgment against you personally, meaning that you would 5 need to pay that out of your own funds, not any estate 6 funds or anybody else's money. You understand that, right? 7 I'm sorry, ma'am? 8 A. It's against me personally? 9 Q. Yes. 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Did you know that? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Have you ever had a judgment entered against you 14 personally? 15 A. Not to my knowledge, no. 16 Q. Okay. Well, if somebody ever got a judgment 17 against you, that's something you might remember; isn't it? 18 A. I would think so. 19 Q. Okay. Do you understand that in this case the 20 Plaintiff is asking for a judgment against you personally, 21 meaning that it would seize your bank accounts or whatever 22 assets you have? 23 Do you understand that that's the Plaintiff's 24 request here? 25 A. Well, I hope not. 52 1 Q. You don't know? I mean, that was never explained 2 to you by anyone? 3 MR. LIROT: It's privileged, Your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Sustained. 5 BY MR. ROSEN: 6 Q. Anyone outside of Counsel. 7 A. No. 8 Q. And if a judgment were entered against you 9 personally, you don't have any expectation anybody else is 10 going to pay it; do you? 11 MR. LIROT: Objection on relevance. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 BY MR. ROSEN: 14 Q. Do you understand, Ms. Liebreich, that if Judge 15 Baird were to find that you have not told the truth, one of 16 the remedies the law gives him is to strike your answer and 17 enter a default in favor of the Plaintiff? 18 MR. LIROT: Objection, speculation. Calls for 19 legal conclusion. 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm telling the truth. 22 BY MR. ROSEN: 23 Q. Do you understand what I just said to you? 24 A. I understand what you said. 25 Q. And all of the answers that you gave before the 53 1 luncheon recess, you stand on those, right? 2 A. I do. 3 Q. They're the truth, the whole truth and nothing but 4 the truth, right, Ms. Liebreich? 5 A. To the best of my memory. 6 Q. All right. Let's turn again to Exhibit 61, a 7 transcript of your deposition ten days ago. I will ask you 8 to turn to Page 344. And I will direct your attention to 9 Lines 6 through 12 -- excuse me -- 6 through 9. 10 Were you asked the following questions and did 11 you give the following answers: 12 Question, "All right. How many times did you 13 consent to Mr. Minton providing money for the Estate?" 14 Answer, "Anytime he wanted to. I don't know 15 how many times. Anytime he wanted to." 16 Was that answer true at the time that you gave 17 it? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. And continuing on Line 10 through 12, you were 20 asked the following question, "But Mr. Dandar called you a 21 number of times and said do you consent to the Estate 22 having this money from Minton?" 23 And your answer, which appears on Page 345, 24 Line 2 is, answer, "Yes." 25 Was that true ten days ago? 54 1 A. Well, I'm sure whatever I said was true to the 2 best of my knowledge. 3 Q. Okay. And continuing on Lines 3 and 4 on Page 4 345, you were then asked the question, "What did you think 5 you were consenting to?" 6 And your answer was, "Receiving some money from 7 Mr. Minton." 8 Do you see that? 9 A. Right. 10 Q. And was that answer true when you gave it ten days 11 ago? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And it's true today, right? 14 A. Right. 15 Q. Please turn to Page 347. 16 And I want to direct your attention first to 17 Lines 4 through 16. 18 Again, I will ask you if you were asked these 19 questions and gave these answers. 20 Question, "Now, you heard yesterday about a 21 $500,000 check that Mr. Dandar received in May of 2000. Do 22 you remember that?" 23 Answer, "The $500,000, yes." 24 Question, "Yeah. Do you know about that 25 $500,000 --" 55 1 Answer, "Yes." 2 Question, "-- check when it came in?" 3 Answer, "Yes." 4 "How did you know about that?" 5 Answer, "He said he didn't know who it was 6 from." 7 Question, "But that was for the funding of the 8 Estate too, right?" 9 Answer, "Right." 10 Did you give those answers? 11 A. I did. 12 Q. And were they true when you gave them ten days 13 ago? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And are they true today? 16 A. Yes, to the best of my knowledge. 17 Q. Okay. Continuing on starting on Line 17. 18 A. I take that back. Let me read that again. 19 Q. Sure. Take your time. 20 A. Well, it was given to Ken for whatever he wanted 21 to spend it for, but they did say funding the Estate. So 22 if he wanted to spend it for that, that's right. 23 Q. Continuing on -- are you done with your answer, 24 ma'am? 25 A. Right. 56 1 Q. Yeah? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. The answer that you gave that appears on -- the 4 answers that appear on Lines 4 through 16, are they true 5 today or not? Yes or no would be sufficient. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Good. Okay. Line 17, question, "Do you know 8 about the $250,000 check in March of 2002?" 9 Answer, "I did." 10 Question, "Mr. Dandar told you about it?" 11 Answer, "Yes." 12 Going over to Page 348, Lines 1 through 3, "So 13 you knew that money came in for the litigation of this case 14 and the Estate." 15 Answer, "Right." 16 Were those answers true when you gave them ten 17 days ago, ma'am? 18 A. Well, that's what I said. 19 Q. I know that's what you said. My question is were 20 those answers true under oath? Were they true ten days 21 ago? 22 A. Well, Ken has been spending the money for the 23 Estate. 24 Q. Are they true today, ma'am? 25 A. Yes. 57 1 Q. Okay. Let's turn to Page 439, Line 19. 2 Question, "Okay. It's your testimony that you 3 knew about the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from 4 Mr. Minton." 5 A. What line? What line? 6 Q. I'm sorry, ma'am, Line 19 on Page 439. 7 "Okay. It's your testimony that you knew about 8 the $500,000 that Mr. Dandar had gotten from Mr. Minton in 9 May of 2000, correct?" 10 Answer, "Right, right." 11 So was that answer true? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. So you knew, then, the check for $500,000 that 14 came to Mr. Dandar in May of 2000, Mr. Dandar had gotten, 15 quote, from Mr. Minton, closed quote. Is that right? 16 A. Well, I think he said Mr. Minton gave it to him, 17 but he didn't know who it came from. I don't remember 18 exactly what it was. 19 Q. You can't remember what he said? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Okay. And then after the examination of you on 22 direct examination was completed, Mr. Dandar, your 23 attorney, then cross-examined you ten days ago, right? 24 A. Right. 25 Q. So let's turn to Page 463, starting on Line 3, and 58 1 here's the question -- I'm sorry -- starting on Line 5, 2 actually. Here's the question Mr. Dandar asked you: 3 "Is it your understanding that the money that 4 Robert Minton gave to Dandar & Dandar, P.A. or to Ken 5 Dandar, your attorney, is a loan to Ken Dandar or the 6 P.A.?" 7 Answer, "Yes," right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. On cross-examination ten days ago, ma'am, this is 10 the first time you have ever said in any affidavit or 11 deposition that the money from Mr. Minton was a loan to Ken 12 Dandar; isn't that right? 13 A. I don't know whether I've said it before or not. 14 Q. Well, I'm asking you. As you sit here, do you 15 have a recollection of ever saying in a deposition, in an 16 affidavit, in a court hearing, anywhere, anywhere in the 17 five years before April 20th, 2002, did you ever say in 18 words or substance, "Mr. Minton's money was a loan to Ken 19 Dandar"? Yes or no. 20 A. I just answered you. I don't remember. Possibly 21 I have. I don't remember. 22 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar didn't tell you to give that 23 answer that I just read to you; did he? 24 A. No. 25 Q. He didn't tell you to lie; did he? 59 1 A. He's never told me to lie, or anyone else. 2 Q. He didn't tell you to lie in connection with this 3 question, right, and this answer? 4 A. No. 5 Q. So you decided to provide this answer on your own, 6 right? 7 A. I'm sure I did. 8 Q. Okay. You know that one of the other issues in 9 this case is the matter of the agreement made -- alleged 10 agreement made -- between the Estate and Mr. Minton that, 11 in substance, after the costs and expenses are paid, out of 12 any settlement or recovery in the wrongful death case, the, 13 quote, bulk of the recovery would be donated to some 14 anti-cult group? Are you aware that's one of the issues in 15 the case? 16 A. Well, that's what my sisters and brother -- we 17 kind of talked about it. There's no agreement. 18 Q. Did you agree amongst yourselves to that? 19 A. We talked about it. We had nothing in writing. 20 Q. Did you agree or not, ma'am? 21 A. We have nothing in writing. 22 Q. Ma'am, you're not answering my question. I didn't 23 ask you if there was anything in writing. 24 I asked you if you and your sisters and brother 25 agreed that after expenses, the bulk of any recovery in the 60 1 wrongful death case would be contributed to an anti-cult 2 group. Yes or no, ma'am. 3 A. Orally, yes. 4 Q. Okay. And that was communicated to Mr. Minton, 5 right -- 6 A. Possibly. 7 Q. -- by your attorney, Mr. Dandar, right? 8 A. Right. 9 Q. Huh? 10 A. Possibly. 11 Q. In 1997, that was communicated, right? 12 A. I don't remember when it was. 13 Q. Can you tell me when it was that you and your 14 siblings agreed orally that the bulk of any recovery from 15 the wrongful death case would be donated to an anti-cult 16 group? 17 A. I cannot remember. 18 Q. Tell me approximately what year you think it was, 19 ma'am. 20 A. I don't remember. 21 Q. Well, do me a favor. Before you jump to say you 22 don't remember, give it a moment of thought. It's 23 somewhere between 1997 and today. So see if you can help 24 me out. When was it? 25 A. It could have been '97, '98, '99 or 2000 or 2001. 61 1 I don't remember. 2 Q. It could have been any of those years, huh? 3 Okay. Let me see if I can help refresh your 4 recollection, ma'am. Let's turn to Exhibit 53. 5 This is a deposition of yours taken on May 6 24th, 1999. And I will direct your attention to Page 198. 7 A. Which one? 53? 8 Q. 53, ma'am. 9 A. I don't have a 53 that I see. I have 57, 56, 55, 10 54. I have a 33. 11 Q. 53. 12 A. 61, 32. 13 MR. ROSEN: May I approach, Your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 THE WITNESS: Here it is. 16 BY MR. ROSEN: 17 Q. Oh, you have it? Good. Exhibit 53 -- Page 198, 18 Ms. Liebreich. 19 Do you have it, ma'am? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. I'm going to direct your attention to a 22 question. Actually, the question begins on Line 19. 23 "Is it an accurate description of your 24 agreement that -- is it correct -- that you on behalf of 25 the Estate of Lisa McPherson have agreed to donate the bulk 62 1 of any money that you get out of this case to a 2 cult-awareness group? Is that accurate? 3 Answer, "Yes." 4 Do you remember being asked that question and 5 giving that answer? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. By the way, Ms. Liebreich, if you look at this 8 deposition of May of 1999, does that help in any way to 9 refresh your recollection as to when this agreement was 10 made? 11 A. Maybe it was '99. I don't remember when we talked 12 about it. It probably was '99. 13 Q. Could we agree that it was before May 24th, 1999, 14 ma'am? 15 A. Probably, yes. 16 Q. Probably. Okay. And let's go over to the top of 17 Page 199, then, continuing on, "Has that been discussed 18 with your other siblings?" 19 Answer, "Yes." 20 "And they have agreed to that?" 21 Answer, "Yes." 22 Do you remember being asked those questions and 23 giving those answers? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And were they true at the time? 63 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Okay. Let's turn, now, to Exhibit 54, ma'am. And 3 I will direct your attention to Page 25. This is the 4 deposition of your sister, Lee Skelton. 5 A. Page what? 6 Q. 25. This is the deposition of your sister Lee 7 Skelton, right? 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. And Ms. Skeleton is one of the people -- one of 10 the beneficiaries, if you would, who would ultimately share 11 in any recovery in the wrongful death case, right? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. Okay. You'll notice -- I won't read this to you, 14 but I will ask you to read it to yourself -- the question 15 begins on Line 19 on Page 25, and the answer goes to the 16 top of Line 3 on Page 26. 17 If you will read that to myself, my only 18 question is going to be whether or not you have any 19 disagreement with that statement or whether your sister 20 told the truth. 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. She told the truth, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. Okay. Let's go to Exhibit 55, ma'am. This is a 25 deposition of another one of your sisters, Ann Carlson, 64 1 correct? 2 A. It looks that way. 3 Q. Say again? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. And Ms. Carlson also would be a beneficiary 6 of any of the recovery in the wrongful death case? 7 A. Right. 8 Q. So let's turn, ma'am, to Page 19, and I will 9 direct your attention to -- and you can read to yourself 10 the question which appears on Line 8 and the answer which 11 goes down to Line 20. 12 Why don't you read that to yourself, and then 13 I'm going to ask you whether or not your sister told the 14 truth, whether that's true to your knowledge. 15 A. As far as I know, it's true. 16 Q. Okay. Good. Now we go to Exhibit 56. Exhibit 56 17 is another deposition of your sister Ann Carlson. This one 18 is July 27, 2000. Do you see that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And I will direct your attention, ma'am, to Page 21 225. 22 A. All right. 23 Q. I will ask you to read the questions and answers 24 starting on Line 13 and going down to the bottom of the 25 page on Line 25. Take your time and read it to yourself. 65 1 A. What was the question? 2 Q. Have you finished reading it, ma'am? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. To the best of your knowledge, your sister gave 5 truthful testimony there, right? 6 A. To the best of her knowledge, I'm sure she did. 7 Q. Now, Ms. Liebreich, did there come a time in 2000 8 when there was any discussion about not making any more 9 public statements about an agreement to donate the bulk of 10 the proceeds? 11 A. Was there -- 12 Q. I will repeat the question. Did there come a time 13 towards the end of the year 2000 when you had discussions 14 with anyone on the subject of let's not make anymore 15 statements about this agreement to donate the bulk of the 16 proceeds? 17 A. No. 18 Q. No. 19 Okay. So I would assume, then, from what we've 20 just gone over that as far as you're concerned as you sit 21 here today, the intention and understanding of you and your 22 siblings remains to contribute the bulk of the proceeds of 23 any wrongful death recovery to an anti-cult group, right? 24 A. I don't know whether we would or not. I don't 25 know. We have no money... 66 1 Q. Did something happen to make you change your mind? 2 A. Well, that's possible. 3 Q. Well, and so is my becoming 5'10 tomorrow, but not 4 likely. So let me ask you again. 5 Apart from possibility, anything that you can 6 recall happen that made you change your mind? 7 A. I don't know about the rest of my siblings, but 8 I've changed my mind. 9 Q. I'm asking you. You didn't change your mind? 10 A. Well, after the way Mr. Minton testified against 11 Dan -- or Ken -- 12 Q. You've changed your mind? You have changed your 13 mind. 14 A. I feel like I have. 15 Q. Okay. And that was just recently, right? 16 A. Right. 17 Q. Let's turn to -- you have a file Exhibit 33 in 18 front of you, ma'am. 19 Do you see that, Ms. Liebreich? 20 A. I haven't found it yet. Here it is. 21 Q. Okay. Exhibit 33 is an affidavit of yours. Is 22 that your signature on the second page? 23 A. Yes, it is. 24 Q. And you swore to this affidavit on the 20th of 25 December 2000, correct? 67 1 A. Yes. 2 MR. LIROT: Asked and answered, Judge. 3 MR. ROSEN: Say again? 4 MR. LIROT: The question has been asked 5 and answered. We've already gone through this 6 affidavit. 7 THE WITNESS: You did. You asked that 8 earlier. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. Proceed. 10 THE WITNESS: You asked it earlier. 11 BY MR. ROSEN: 12 Q. Ms. Liebreich, let me direct your attention to the 13 first part of Paragraph 2, that, "Affiant has never entered 14 into a binding agreement with Robert Minton nor the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust nor anyone else as to the disposition of 16 funds." 17 Let me stop there. Do you see that? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Now, you did enter into an agreement, but the 20 agreement, you're saying in here -- what you meant to say 21 is that the agreement is just not binding. 22 A. A verbal agreement, nothing in writing. 23 Q. Right. So because the agreement is verbal, 24 nothing in writing, in your mind it's not binding. 25 A. Right. 68 1 Q. Now, I want to be careful about this. If you can 2 answer this question, please, yes or no. 3 Have you received any legal advice on the 4 subject of whether a verbal agreement is binding or 5 non-binding? Just yes or no would be good enough. 6 A. No. 7 Q. So you somehow concluded in your own mind that if 8 the agreement is not in writing, it's not binding; you 9 don't have to honor it, right? Is that right? 10 A. I haven't thought about it. 11 Q. Well, isn't that what you meant when you said it's 12 not binding because it's not in writing? 13 A. Right. 14 Q. Okay. Paragraph 3 of the affidavit, you are here 15 testifying that the Lisa McPherson Trust has not advanced 16 any funds to defray costs in the wrongful death case, 17 right? 18 A. Right. 19 Q. Did you make any inquiry of anyone as to whether 20 that statement was true before you swore to it? 21 A. No, I don't believe I did. 22 Q. No? Who drafted this affidavit? 23 A. It seems like to me the reason it was drawn up was 24 that Scientology kept bugging, bugging about Mr. Minton 25 running the lawsuit and running everything and all of that, 69 1 and I just -- we just decided to do that. 2 Q. Well, I appreciate that, ma'am, but can you tell 3 me who prepared this affidavit? 4 A. Well, Ken's office did. 5 Q. Whose idea was it to file an affidavit saying 6 there's no binding agreement? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection, privileged. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 BY MR. ROSEN: 10 Q. Now, ma'am, are you aware that Mr. Lirot has filed 11 an appearance as additional counsel representing you and 12 the Estate in this case? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You never spoke to Mr. Lirot, never hired him, 15 right? Is that right? 16 A. Me personally hire him? 17 Q. Yeah. 18 A. No. 19 Q. Well, you say you personally, ma'am. Do you 20 understand Mr. Lirot is representing you personally in this 21 case before Judge Baird? You understand that, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. You never hired him, you never spoke to him about 24 that, right? 25 A. I've talked with him. 70 1 Q. No. You never hired him. You never spoke to him 2 about hiring him, right? 3 A. I talked to Ken about hiring him, yes. 4 Q. Mr. Dandar is the one who hired him, right? 5 A. Well, after our discussions. 6 Q. You never met or heard of Mr. Lirot. Mr. Dandar 7 hired him, right? 8 A. I just answered your question. 9 Q. Who is paying him? 10 MR. LIROT: Objection. 11 THE COURT: Sustained. 12 BY MR. ROSEN: 13 Q. You're aware, as well, that Mr. Lirot has appeared 14 as counsel for the Estate in the wrongful death case? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Mr. Dandar made that decision, right? 17 A. We discussed it. 18 Q. Ms. Liebreich, isn't it true that you didn't know 19 anything about Mr. Lirot appearing as counsel for the 20 Estate in the wrongful death case until he already did it 21 and Mr. Dandar told you about it? Isn't that true? 22 A. No, that's not true. 23 Q. And you never signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot 24 to represent you or the Estate in this case, right? 25 A. I have not. 71 1 Q. And you've not signed any agreement with Mr. Lirot 2 to represent the Estate in the wrongful death case, right? 3 A. Not yet. 4 Q. Have you been asked to? I said, have you been 5 asked to? 6 A. Not yet. 7 MR. ROSEN: Okay. Nothing further, Your 8 Honor. 9 I will offer into evidence the exhibits 10 that we've used in the examination of this 11 witness so I don't forget like I did last time. 12 And they are the portion of Exhibit 56, 13 the portion of Exhibit 55, the portion of 14 Exhibit 61 -- all of these are 15 transcripts -- the portion of Exhibit 54, the 16 portion of Exhibit 53, Exhibit 33, the portion 17 of Exhibit 57, Exhibit 17 -- a portion of 18 Exhibit 17; I'm sorry -- the portion of Exhibit 19 32. 20 And that, I believe, is all of them, Your 21 Honor. I would offer them into evidence. 22 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to object to 23 the depositions of anyone other than 24 Ms. Liebreich. We object to Exhibit 55, the 25 excerpts of the deposition from Ann Carlson. 72 1 THE COURT: On what grounds? 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, there has been no 3 authentication here, and I don't think we have 4 the signature page. We would object on the 5 grounds of the rule of completeness. 6 And these witnesses -- these deponents 7 haven't been there to be allowed to have any 8 cross-examination regarding their answers or 9 anything involved in these depositions. 10 MR. ROSEN: I wasn't offering them for the 11 truth, Your Honor. If you recall my questions 12 they were specifically whether this witness, 13 having read those questions and answers, agrees 14 with the statements and agrees that they were 15 true. That's the only reason they're being 16 offered, not for the truth. 17 THE COURT: I think that her responses to 18 the questions were such that the portions of 19 the depositions themselves are not necessary. 20 I will sustain the objection. 21 MR. ROSEN: Your Honor, my problem is that 22 she didn't read them out loud. If you 23 remember, I had her read them to herself. 24 So without the exhibits going in, the 25 record will not show what it is she's agreeing 73 1 to. 2 And if the only objection is authenticity, 3 do we have to call a court reporter to 4 authenticate that transcript? I will put 5 Mr. Dandar on the stand; he was there. 6 So if Counsel wants to object to 7 authenticity, I can authenticate them three 8 different ways. 9 MR. LIROT: Mr. Dandar wasn't the 10 deponent, Judge. 11 MR. ROSEN: He was present. 12 THE COURT: I know he wasn't a deponent. 13 The question is, do you really have an 14 objection to the authenticity of these 15 depositions? 16 MR. LIROT: I have an objection to not 17 being able to cross-examine the deponents in 18 these depositions to explain their answers. 19 THE COURT: Well, but their answers are 20 really not relevant. What's relevant is this 21 witness's answers, and you have an opportunity 22 to cross-examine her. 23 All right. I will go ahead and admit 24 them. 25 MR. ROSEN: Thank you, Your Honor.