||||| From: phatman@swissalps.ch (The Fat Man) Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Bob Minton testimony (Volume 2) Date: 3 Jun 2002 19:51:20 -0000 Organization: Happy Lobster & Partners / LE Mail2News Lines: 6785 Message-ID: <0AGRF1XS37410.9106481482@Nyarlatheotep-frog.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: aboukir-101-1-4-pparis.adsl.nerim.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-Trace: norfair.nerim.net 1023133954 70913 80.65.224.85 (3 Jun 2002 19:52:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: abuse@nerim.net NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 3 Jun 2002 19:52:34 +0000 (UTC) Comments: This message probably did not originate from the above address. You should NEVER trust ANY address on Usenet ANYWAYS: use PGP !!! X-Remailer-Contact: http://www.privacyresources.org/frogadmin/ content-length: 230296 X-Mail2News-Contact: http://www.privacyresources.org/frogadmin/ Path: news2.lightlink.com!news.lightlink.com!vienna7.his.com!news.cs.jhu.edu!yellow.newsread.com!bad-news.newsread.com!netaxs.com!newsread.com!proxad.net!proxad.net!nerim.net!norfair.nerim.net!Nyarlatheotep-frogadmin.yi.org!not-for-mail Xref: news2.lightlink.com alt.religion.scientology:1521983 64 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 2 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 CONTENTS: Testimony of Robert S. Minton. 17 DATE: May 17, 2002. Afternoon Session. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 65 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 6 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 7 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 8 Organization. 9 MR. LEE FUGATE and 10 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 11 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 12 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 13 14 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 15 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 16 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 17 18 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor 19 New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 20 Organization. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 66 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 3 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 4 Attorney for Robert Minton. 5 6 ALSO PRESENT: 7 Mr. Rick Spector 8 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 9 Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 67 1 THE COURT: We are ready to go now, I hope. 2 You may proceed. 3 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. May it 4 please the Court. 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION RESUMED 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Mr. Minton, we've gone through generically the 8 funding that you can recall in terms of your 9 anti-Scientology litigation funding. And let me ask you 10 this question. Did there come a time when you wanted to 11 direct your attention to Florida. And, if there was, could 12 you tell us how that happened? 13 A I'm -- 14 Q I don't know if that makes sense. 15 A I'm not really understanding your question. I'm 16 sorry. 17 Q Well, did there come a time when you came to 18 Florida and became engaged in any litigation in Florida? 19 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying not to lead, Judge. 20 A Well, you know, I was already engaged in 21 litigation in Florida before I came here with respect to the 22 wrongful death case. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Well, then let me ask you this. How did that 25 happen? How is it you were already engaged in litigation in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 68 1 Florida? 2 A Well, back in October of 1997 -- well, you know, I 3 have to go back a little bit. You know, obviously sometime 4 in early 1997, I think it was February, this case was filed. 5 And in March, March 9 of 1997 -- 6 Q "This case" being the wrongful death case? 7 A The wrongful death case, yes. I met Mr. Dandar 8 for the first time at a meeting at the Holiday Inn in 9 Clearwater out on Route 19. He was having a meeting there 10 with Lawrence Wollersheim. And I was in Wollersheim's room 11 while this meeting took place. And I didn't participate in 12 this meeting other than sitting there listening. 13 You know, Wollersheim had some expertise in terms 14 of litigating against Scientology. I think now he's been 15 involved in it over 20 years. And Mr. Dandar was interested 16 in Wollersheim's slant on how he could, you know, deal with 17 this wrongful death case. 18 And so I just listened to this conversation. 19 Q How is it that you happened to be in Florida in a 20 Holiday Inn room with Larry Wollersheim? 21 A Well, this was a picket that was arranged in March 22 of '97 to -- 23 Q A picket of what? 24 A A picket of the Church of Scientology. You know, 25 critics from -- you know, not a lot of critics, but a few Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 69 1 people came to -- to Florida for this picket. And the 2 reason I remember the date of March 9 is this was the day 3 there was an article in the New York Times, a lengthy 4 article in the New York Times, about Scientology's tax 5 exemption. And so that is how I got here for this picket. 6 You know, I met Dandar. 7 I didn't have any further contact with Dandar 8 until about October of 1997 when, Mmm, you know, I contacted 9 him because I was aware that, you know, he was the attorney 10 on this case. I had been previously financing this 11 Wollersheim case, which was, you know, a really kind of slow 12 boat to nowhere, it seemed, at the time. 13 And, you know, in terms of the focal point of any 14 sort of anti-Scientology activities, you know, this case 15 seemed like, you know, the flag -- sort of the banner of the 16 whole anti-Scientology movement. And I offered to give 17 Dandar -- you know, to the estate, $100,000 in October 6, I 18 think it was, of 1997. 19 Q That would be the first check that we referenced a 20 few moments ago, which is the October 6, 1997 -- 21 A 93A, I think, right? 22 Q 93A? 23 A Yes. That is correct. 24 Q Now, had you -- and if you could date it, fine. 25 Did you -- when you say that this was sort of the banner Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 70 1 case as far as you were concerned, did it have any appeal to 2 you for that reason? Or if it did, could you explain? 3 A Well, yes, it did. I mean, it had appeal. The 4 appeal was that, you know, here was a chance to really nail 5 Scientology. And, you know, this is -- you know, it looked 6 like -- you know, the way it had been portrayed up to this 7 point, it looked like this was an open and shut case, you 8 know, it wasn't going to take forever to deal with it. And, 9 you know, the absolute maximum amount of negative publicity 10 that could possibly be had anywhere would be through this 11 case. 12 Q Negative publicity against -- 13 A Against Scientology. 14 Q And did you have any discussions with Mr. Dandar 15 about what sort of return you thought the case may generate 16 in terms of dollars? 17 A Not right at that point. Later in December of '97 18 I did. And, you know, he was talking in the neighborhood of 19 eighty to a hundred million. 20 Q This is what Mr. Dandar told you he was expecting 21 the case would bring? 22 A What he expected the case was worth. 23 Q And do you recall whether you made similar 24 comments about that to the press, or postings? 25 A I did. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 71 1 Q And I'm assuming at that point in history you 2 believed that was true? 3 A Mmm, yes. I did. 4 Q Now, when -- well, let's say did there come a time 5 when you entered into any sort of understanding or agreement 6 with anyone with regard to your funding the banner case, as 7 you called it? 8 A Well, you know, starting at the beginning, 9 October 6, 1997 when I sent this check off to Mr. Dandar, 10 you know, he -- he told me at the time, before I sent the 11 check, that he had discussed -- that he had checked with the 12 Florida Bar about this, that this was totally okay, you 13 know. 14 You know, I checked with my own attorney in Boston 15 before sending off this check. He said, "That's fine. 16 Mr. Dandar said you can't have any control over the 17 litigation, you know. You won't receive any confidential 18 information. Fine." 19 And he put that in a letter, you know, after he 20 had talked to the Florida Bar. 21 And the terms of that agreement were that these 22 would be loans to the estate of Lisa McPherson, and they 23 would be repaid only if the estate of Lisa McPherson 24 collected enough money in this case to cover their basic 25 costs and return to me the moneys that I advanced to cover Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 72 1 the costs in the case, exclusive of any interest. There 2 wasn't any interest element to it. 3 Q And that agreement, as you have just described it, 4 who was a party to that communication, as you just described 5 it to the Court? 6 A Just Mr. Dandar and myself, you know. But he said 7 that he had, you know, discussed this with his client, Dell 8 Liebreich, and that, you know, it was okay from her 9 standpoint. 10 I think he told me at the time that he needed to 11 get consent from his client, and he did, according to what 12 he told me. 13 Q And I'm jumping ahead, I know. But did there come 14 a time when you had any discussions with his client, that 15 is, the personal representative, Dell Liebreich? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And can you tell us about that -- I know I'm 18 jumping ahead -- but just for the purpose of where we're at 19 here? 20 A Mmm, well, there were a number of discussions 21 which were principally around the time that -- that the 22 family would come down here for the annual pickets against 23 Scientology, you know, on or about the anniversary date of 24 Lisa McPherson's death, which was December 5th. 25 And there were -- there were another couple of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 73 1 times, I'm not sure what time of year they were, they were 2 fairly hot -- one of them was a fairly hot time of the year, 3 and they were staying in a hotel in Tampa over near 4 Mr. Dandar's office. 5 And I remember that was the first time that -- the 6 reason I remember that one is that was the first time Ann 7 Carlson or Lee Skelton had seen the autopsy photos, the 8 complete set of autopsy photos, which they asked me to show 9 them. 10 Q You had them? 11 A Yes. This was after they were released. This 12 wasn't prerelease dates. 13 Q And for the record, Ann Carlson and Lee Skelton 14 are who, to your knowledge? 15 A They are Dell Liebreich's sisters. And I think 16 they are -- the three of them and one other person, who I 17 don't think I have met, are the beneficiaries of the estate. 18 Q My question was, though, back to the question, was 19 did there come a time when you had an agreement with either 20 Dell Liebreich or other family members about -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading. 22 THE COURT: Go ahead. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q -- about your funding the litigation, and whether 25 or not there would be any return? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 74 1 MR. DANDAR: Same objection. 2 THE COURT: Overruled. You can say yes or no 3 to that. 4 A Yes. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Can you describe to the Court what that 7 understanding or agreement was? 8 A Well, are you just talking about the loans? 9 Q Let me just leave it with a yes. And I'll come 10 back to that. I want to move ahead. 11 A Okay. 12 THE COURT: Well, I would like to know the 13 answer to that. 14 MR. FUGATE: All right. 15 THE COURT: This agreement that you indicated 16 you had with Mr. Dandar about the money that you 17 gave and what would be returned to you over the 18 money that you gave to the estate -- 19 THE WITNESS: Yes? 20 THE COURT: -- did you have any agreement with 21 the -- Ms. Liebreich or anybody else about that? Or 22 was that just between you and Ken? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, that was just between me 24 and Mr. Dandar at that time, when we first entered 25 in it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 75 1 But he said, you know, he had to get consent 2 from his client to -- to do this, to enter into 3 this, to accept any money from anybody who wasn't a 4 part of the family to finance this case. 5 THE COURT: And I think somewhere in the 6 materials, perhaps it's something that has been 7 filed in this case by the Church, there was a 8 letter -- wasn't there a letter that he sent to this 9 witness? 10 MR. FUGATE: There is -- there is a letter that 11 Mr. Dandar sent. And then there is a handwritten -- 12 THE COURT: There is a handwritten letter from 13 Mr. Minton to Mr. Dandar. I think they call it the 14 Kleenex box or something. 15 THE WITNESS: Right. 16 THE COURT: Then there is a letter from 17 Mr. Dandar to Mr. Minton. Do you know what I'm 18 talking about? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. I do. 20 THE COURT: That letter -- I take it in that 21 letter he -- whatever it was he said in that letter, 22 when you got it, did that comport with the 23 understanding that you thought you and Mr. Dandar 24 had made? 25 THE WITNESS: I thought it was a little skimpy, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 76 1 but I was willing to live with it, yes, the way it 2 was. 3 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to come back and go 4 through those at a point, Judge, unless -- 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Did you -- did you consider -- how did you 8 consider your money that you were putting into the case from 9 your perspective, sir? 10 A Well, you know, I -- I looked at it as -- as a way 11 to further the entire anti-Scientology activities that I was 12 involved in. 13 Q And did you look at it as an opportunity to get a 14 return on your investment? 15 THE COURT: You really do have to be careful 16 about leading here. You asked him what he thought 17 of it and he told us. Your next question needs to 18 be, "Anything else?" Don't be suggesting things to 19 this witness. 20 MR. FUGATE: I apologize, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Not especially in the areas that 22 are at issue in this case, this hearing that I'm 23 having. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, I actually have 25 got -- I'm going to come back to that point, and I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 77 1 was just going to ask about -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Really, what did you expect to get with regard to 4 your funding? 5 A Well, as I mentioned -- you know, there were 6 several things. But as I mentioned, you know, the first 7 thing is that this was the sort of flagship case to be used 8 to illustrate how terrible Scientology was. And certainly 9 anyone who was anywhere near this case or ever read about it 10 expected that this would be a huge black eye for 11 Scientology. 12 You know, I made a suggestion to Mr. Dandar 13 shortly after, you know, this October 6, 1997 check, and 14 I -- I think it was December 1 or thereabouts, at the Tampa 15 Club in Tampa when he took me to lunch one day when I came 16 down here for this annual picket, that -- well, because at 17 the time, Scientology was making a lot of statements that, 18 you know, that Ken Dandar was an ambulance-chasing attorney, 19 and Dell Liebreich was a money-grubbing old woman that had 20 no connections to Lisa McPherson, yet they were, you know, 21 trying for this -- you know, the big bucks in this case. 22 And I said, well, you know, it would make sense to 23 diffuse that type of rhetoric that was coming out of 24 Scientology for the estate to agree to give the bulk of the 25 money they get, or substantial part I think is what we Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 78 1 talked about at that time, a substantial part of that money 2 to an anti-cult group, especially one that was focused on 3 Scientology. 4 Q Did you have anything in mind at that time? 5 A I did. I mean, you know, FACTNet was an 6 organization which I was -- had already been elected to 7 their board of directors and went into effect from 8 December 15, 1997, but this was back on December 1, but I'd 9 been elected to it. 10 And, you know, clearly in my own mind, that was -- 11 that was the target of the estate's future largesse with 12 respect to the proceeds of this case. 13 Q And I interrupted you. You had discussions with 14 Mr. Dandar about that? 15 A Right. He said this was an idea he already had 16 and that, you know, he was going to discuss this with the 17 family and, you know, he said he would get back to me about 18 that. 19 Q Had you, by this point in time, discussed your 20 feelings about Scientology with Mr. Dandar? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And at this point in history, what were your 23 feelings about Scientology? 24 A Well, you know, I really didn't like Scientology. 25 Q Did you -- did you ask Mr. Dandar what his Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 79 1 feelings were? Or did he share those feelings, I guess? 2 A Mr. Dandar, as recently as March of this year -- 3 you know, I don't think there is anybody I know who hates 4 them more than he does. 5 Q Now, back in this point in time we've heard some 6 testimony -- when I say back at this point in time, I should 7 say, generically, I guess, there has been an exhibit that 8 was introduced through Ms. Brooks which was her posting, I 9 think it was described as a harassment time line -- 10 A Right. 11 Q -- that came into evidence. 12 13 MR. FUGATE: If I may approach the witness, 14 your Honor. 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q I'll ask you if you were, during this period of 18 time, making postings of your own? 19 A Yes, I was, pretty much throughout the -- you 20 know, the first postings I ever made were in October, I 21 believe, of 1995. And, you know, they continued to get 22 fairly more frequent up until 2001. 23 Q Well, I recognize that there probably are a lot of 24 Bob Minton postings about Scientology. I have pulled out 25 several and I have got them marked already as 94A through G. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 80 1 And I would like, if I could, to ask you to identify at 2 least those. I know there are others. 3 If you look at the first, 94A, do you recognize 4 that as a posting that you had placed on the Internet? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And are you saying there in July of 1999 that you 7 were recommending that, "Miscavige be hanged in effigy and 8 burned like a common criminal. Please come and bring your 9 flamethrowers." 10 A Yes, sir. 11 Q See, right after that, the same date? 94B, is 12 that another posting of yours? 13 A It is. 14 Q And similar, except you are directing it to, "John 15 Travolta is a shill for Scientology"? 16 A Right. 17 Q And the same, 94C, is, "Hubbard will be hanged in 18 effigy --" and is that a posting that you made, sir? 19 A Yes, it is. 20 Q And it says, "Hubbard will be hanged in effigy and 21 burned like a common criminal," the same byline or inline, 22 "Come bring your flamethrowers." 23 What was the purpose of those sorts of postings, 24 in your opinion, sir? 25 A Mmm, stirring up the opposition to Scientology. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 81 1 Q And if you look at 94D, was that also a posting of 2 yours? 3 A Yes. It is. 4 Q And I think this one is dated November of 1999. 5 And in this one you are targeting Mr. Weinberg and 6 Mr. Hertzberg, two lawyers in the case. Is that correct? 7 A That is correct. 8 Q And it basically speaks for itself, I think. But 9 was that also a tactic that you engaged in, in this period 10 of time that we've been discussing? 11 A Yes, sir. And I would also -- just to tell you, 12 you know, that I have apologized to Mr. Weinberg and 13 Mr. Hertzberg about this post. 14 Q I understand. I'm asking you really, taking you 15 back in time, were these postings that you had posted? 16 A Yes. Yes. 17 Q And then here is one dated 26 July, 1998, 94E. Do 18 you recognize that, sir? 19 A Yes. I do. 20 Q Is that a posting that you posted? 21 A Yes, sir. 22 Q And it says -- would you read the two lines out to 23 us? 24 A "On Sunday, Rinder calls and asks if Jesse Prince 25 is on my payroll. Jesse will be devastating for Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 82 1 Scientology. Get ready." 2 Q What was the purpose of that posting? 3 A You know, it was sort of a "get in Scientology's 4 face" type of posting. You know, this was shortly after I 5 had had some meetings with Mr. Rinder and his boss, 6 Mr. Rathbun, in, I think it was, June and July of 1998. And 7 those talks broke off rather unceremoniously, I guess you 8 would say. And, you know, this was soon -- this post was 9 done soon after Jesse Prince contacted Stacy Brooks and I. 10 Q And is this a point in time when you -- it asks if 11 he's on your payroll. Obviously at the time of this posting 12 he was on your payroll. Is that correct? 13 A Well, I think, you know, Mr. Rinder has had a lot 14 longer history with Jesse Prince than I had. And I think he 15 probably just assumed, because he was in contact with Stacy 16 Brooks and I, that we were paying him. 17 And, in fact, that was pretty close to being 18 accurate. I mean, it pretty much started right at this 19 time, sometime a little before this, that Jesse came up to 20 my house in New Hampshire. I believe he was there at the 21 time I posted this. And, you know, he was telling us all of 22 the things that were -- that he thought were going to 23 devastate Scientology, because of his previous senior 24 position back in 1992, I guess -- sorry, five years before 25 that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 83 1 Q And did there come a time when you put Mr. Prince 2 in touch with Mr. Dandar? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Do you recall when that was in relation to this 5 posting? 6 A It was sometime shortly after this posting. 7 Sometime in 1998. 8 Q Now, if you would, turn to 94F. And I'm going to 9 ask you if you recognize that as a posting that you made? 10 THE COURT: These are already in evidence, I 11 take it? 12 MR. FUGATE: We'll move them in. 13 THE COURT: We probably ought to make sure we 14 move them in if we are going to keep referring to 15 them. Any objection? 16 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 17 THE COURT: They will be received. 18 MR. FUGATE: 94A through G then. I apologize, 19 Judge. I should have done it one at a time. 20 THE WITNESS: We are on F now? 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q We're on F. 23 A Yes. 24 Q That is a July of 1999 posting? 25 A That is a post I made. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 84 1 Q It says: "I called David Miscavige's mother today 2 in Clearwater," puts a phone number in, and also an address. 3 Was that, to your knowledge, an accurate phone number and 4 address for Mr. Miscavige's mother? 5 A I believed it was at the time. 6 Q What was the purpose of putting her telephone 7 number and her address and identifying her as 8 Mr. Miscavige's mother in your posting? 9 A Mmm, trying to piss off Scientology. 10 Q And when you see, down here at the bottom -- 11 THE COURT: Well, didn't you also hope, by 12 putting her phone number and address in there, a 13 bunch of people would pick up the phone and call and 14 harass her? 15 THE WITNESS: Well, that was part of that. 16 That wasn't -- 17 THE COURT: That is what normally somebody 18 would identify somebody's phone number for, I would 19 think. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q The closing lines are: "David Miscavige and his 22 criminal minions need to be on the alert that nobody's 23 schill for his criminal cult is off limits from this point 24 forward, not his mother, his father, his wife, him, and 25 especially not the money lines of Scientology." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 85 1 Did you write that, sir? 2 A I did. 3 Q What did you mean to cause with that posting? 4 A Well, you know, generally speaking, the money 5 line -- you know, this had a lot to do with this money lines 6 of Scientology, because within -- you know, within at least 7 my understanding of it was that the IAS, International 8 Association of Scientologists, was the principal group in 9 which funds were raised by the Church that were used to -- 10 to funnel -- not funnel, but to fund the litigation that the 11 Church of Scientology found itself involved in. 12 Q And the part that you say not his mother, his 13 father, his wife or him were safe, what did that mean? 14 A You know, that was inflammatory. I mean, it was 15 rhetoric, you know. To -- 16 Q 94G, if you would look at that. Apparently -- is 17 that your posting, I should ask you? 18 A Yes, it is. 19 Q Apparently, if I read it, you were asked by others 20 that were posting on the same site what was your message. 21 And is that what your message is that you left on her 22 answering machine? 23 A Yes. 24 Q "Loretta, my name is Bob Minton from New 25 Hampshire, telephone number (603)887-4145." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 86 1 You have changed that by now, have you? 2 A No. 3 Q Oh, sorry. 4 A Still the same. 5 Q Strike that then. 6 "You may not immediately recognize my name, but if 7 you ever read the St. Pete Times, you might remember that I 8 am Scientology's 'Public Enemy Number 1.' I have some 9 messages for your son Davy which I would like to pass along 10 through you. Therefore, please give me a call. Thank you." 11 End of message to Loretta. 12 Did you write that? 13 A I did. 14 Q And did you consider yourself, at that time in 15 July of 1999, to be "Public Enemy Number 1" for Scientology? 16 A I did consider that. 17 THE COURT: You say you did? 18 THE WITNESS: I did, yes. And -- you know, I 19 didn't make this up on my own. I mean, I think NBC 20 Dateline used that line, the St. Petersburg Times 21 used that line, and a German television program used 22 it. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Used the line you were "Public Enemy Number 1" for 25 Scientology? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 87 1 A Right. 2 Q And you were proud of that, were you not? 3 A At the time, I was. 4 Q And was it your purpose, in the postings and the 5 other postings which we're not going to go through, to be as 6 offensive as you possibly could? 7 A Generally speaking, yes. 8 Q And was that, sir, also, as you understood it, to 9 be the purpose and climate of what we've heard described as 10 the critic community? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: I'm not sure what you call this, 13 this Bob@Minton.org, is that your -- 14 THE WITNESS: E-Mail. 15 THE COURT: -- your E-Mail address? There are 16 a lot of postings that have been provided to me 17 throughout the hearing, some by the Church, some 18 perhaps by Mr. Dandar, some in evidence. I take it, 19 when they say at the top "Bob@Minton.org," that 20 would be you? I mean, that is your -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 22 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Now, I think you used the term you wanted to get Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 88 1 in Scientology's face. Did you employ or provide funds to 2 other people to do just that, beside yourself? 3 A Yes, I did. 4 Q Now, do you know -- or if you know, did 5 Mr. Dandar -- was he reading your postings, if you can tell 6 the Court? 7 A I would send him some of them myself. 8 I know that Dell Liebreich had told me that she 9 read absolutely everything that I wrote or anything that was 10 written about me. 11 Q That -- 12 A Excuse me? 13 Q I'm sorry, you said Dell Liebreich told you she 14 read your postings? 15 A Yes, that she religiously read everything that I 16 posted on ARS, or anything that was written about me there. 17 Q And for the benefit of the court, what is ARS? I 18 don't know if we got that. 19 A I'm sorry, that is -- we're into this acronyms. 20 But it is the short version of alt.religion.scientology, 21 that newsgroup. 22 Q And is that a site that is critical of 23 Scientology, to your observation? 24 A Yes. Absolutely. I mean, that is -- that is what 25 it is. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 89 1 Q Now, I would -- 2 THE COURT: Although that is the same site, I 3 believe early on in this, where we read some things 4 where it looked like there would be one posting that 5 was critical toward -- toward Scientology, and then 6 there appeared to be a posting that would look 7 like -- I'm not saying it came from the Church but 8 it certainly came from a pro-Scientology person 9 trying to frustrate or be critical of or whatever -- 10 in other words, it looked like these things can go 11 back and forth, that others -- anybody can get -- 12 THE WITNESS: It's open to anybody, your Honor. 13 It's -- it's principally, you know -- 14 THE COURT: The site is an anti-Scientology 15 site, but sometimes there are those who are not 16 opposed to Scientology who post there, as well? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, there are some, yes, that 18 do that to -- you know, there are a number of, you 19 know, current Scientologists who -- you know, if 20 they are not drowned out, you know, they try to go 21 on there and give their views. They are former 22 Church members who still believe in Scientology but 23 practice their Scientology outside of the official 24 organization, you know, who do the same thing. But, 25 you know, it's a pretty wild mob scene and it's hard Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 90 1 to -- you know, it's hard to get both sides of the 2 picture. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q My question originally was did you have any 5 discussions with Mr. Dandar about your postings over this 6 period of time from '98, I guess, to 2000, 2001? 7 A Well, you know, he was aware of, you know, my 8 activities on the Internet. And -- 9 Q How do you know that, sir? 10 A Because he -- he told me he was. I mean, you 11 know, after we started talking with each other, you know, he 12 was well aware that I was pretty active on the Internet. 13 You know, and I would -- I would always make it a 14 point that if there was something that I thought was 15 important to say, that I thought he should look at, I would 16 always copy him on the message, you know. 17 I mean, he -- at times, he said, you know, "God, I 18 get so many messages from you. I don't know what to do with 19 them all." 20 Q Well, you were pretty prolific on the Internet, 21 were you not, sir? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Did you make postings from the LMT when it came 24 into existence? 25 A Yes, I did. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 91 1 Q From computers there? 2 A Yes. 3 Q So I would take it your postings ranged from 4 computers there -- do you have computers at your home in -- 5 A New Hampshire. 6 Q -- New Hampshire? 7 A Yes. I do. 8 Q Do you have a laptop? 9 A I do. 10 Q So your postings would come from either laptop, 11 home or LMT? 12 A Right. 13 Q Now, did you discuss, in your postings, the 14 wrongful death case? 15 A Pretty -- pretty often. 16 Q And did you discuss your funding of the wrongful 17 death case on the Internet? 18 A Yes. I did. 19 Q And did Mr. Dandar know that, to your 20 understanding? 21 A He -- he certainly did. And, in fact, encouraged 22 it, as far as the money was concerned, because he wanted to 23 make sure that Scientology knew he had money. 24 Q To engage in battle, I guess? 25 A Right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 92 1 Q Now, did you have anything to do with Stacy Brooks 2 and Jesse Prince coming to Clearwater to work for 3 Mr. Dandar? 4 A Yes. I did. 5 Q Can you tell the Court what you had to do with the 6 two of them coming. I guess we'll start with Mr. Prince, 7 then go to Ms. Brooks. 8 A Well, I told them both they needed to go down 9 there and work with Ken Dandar. It was -- I mean, they were 10 getting moneys from me. And, you know, they would have gone 11 to Moscow, if required. 12 Q And at the time you told them to come here, as you 13 say, was that, to your knowledge, their sole source of 14 funding, your money? 15 A Mmm, yes. It was. 16 Q And, to your knowledge, did they come to 17 Clearwater and go to work for Mr. Dandar? 18 A Yes. They did. 19 Q And -- 20 THE COURT: What do you mean, go to work for 21 him? Are we talking here again about these 22 consultant -- 23 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to ask him that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Well, I think going to work for 25 somebody, being a consultant for somebody, that is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 93 1 quite different. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Let me ask you. What did you ask them to come to 4 Clearwater to do, as far as you were concerned? 5 A I mean, to do whatever Mr. Dandar wanted them to 6 do. You know, I didn't say go be a consultant. Or be an 7 expert witness. You know, "Whatever Dandar needed you to 8 do, you need to go down there with him and do it." 9 Q And did you communicate with Mr. Dandar about your 10 direction -- or whatever it is you -- 11 A He needed them. He made that clear. It was just 12 somebody needed to facilitate getting them here. 13 Q And was it your understanding that he was aware 14 they were being paid by you? 15 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Leading. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q At the time they came down, you indicated they 19 were -- both Mr. Prince and Ms. Brooks were being paid by 20 you? 21 A That is correct. 22 Q Did you ever communicate their financial status to 23 Mr. Dandar? 24 A Yes. I did. 25 Q And can you tell us when, where, if you recall? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 94 1 THE COURT: We're going to have to do something 2 here. This just -- I mean -- 3 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to -- 4 THE COURT: I know, but being paid by him, I 5 don't get it. One of these people he was involved 6 with romantically, and one of these people was his 7 good friend. 8 Now, paid by, does this mean you were paying 9 them to do work? Or does this mean you were 10 giving -- apparently you must have, I assume, a lot 11 of money. 12 THE WITNESS: I used to. 13 THE COURT: You used to have a lot of money. 14 And were you sharing that with some person who was, 15 I take it, very important to you, Ms. Brooks? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 THE COURT: And Mr. Prince. Paying them. Are 18 you suggesting you were paying Ms. Brooks for being 19 your companion? 20 THE WITNESS: No. You know, I mean, as far as 21 Jesse Prince was concerned, I was completely 22 supporting him, you know. 23 THE COURT: Right, so you were paying him -- 24 you weren't paying him for his work for you; you 25 were paying him -- I take it at that time he was a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 95 1 friend, you had money, he didn't. 2 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't paying him because 3 he was a friend. I was paying him because of the 4 work he was doing. Jesse later became a friend. 5 THE COURT: What were you paying him for then, 6 before you sent him down here to Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, he came out and worked out 8 at FACTNet. He went out and worked with Dan 9 Leipold. You know, he came up to New Hampshire and, 10 you know, started preparing to, you know, tell 11 everybody all of the secrets that he learned in 12 Scientology, especially -- 13 THE COURT: So he was being paid then for his 14 anti-Scientology work? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Okay. That you were asking him to 17 do? 18 THE WITNESS: Right. I mean, you know, he 19 didn't volunteer to do this. This is something that 20 he got paid to do. 21 THE COURT: Okay. And the same with 22 Ms. Brooks? 23 THE WITNESS: Well, Ms. Brooks was very active 24 in my anti-Scientology work. With her, it was a 25 little different because of our personal Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 96 1 relationship. You know, I was just making sure she 2 was taken care of financially. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Well, thanks to those questions, Ms. Brooks and 6 Mr. Prince were being paid to conduct anti-Scientology work, 7 I guess is the best way to describe that? 8 A Yes. That would be accurate. 9 Q Was that -- were those facts communicated to 10 Mr. Dandar? 11 A You know, I think Mr. Dandar knew -- by that time 12 knew everything about my personal relationships and my 13 working relationships with Jesse Prince and others. 14 Q Now, let me ask you this question. When 15 Mr. Prince came to Florida, what did you understand he was 16 doing in Florida? 17 A Working for Mr. Dandar on the wrongful death case. 18 Q And when Ms. Brooks came to Florida, what did you 19 understand Ms. Brooks was doing in Florida? 20 A Working with Mr. Dandar on the wrongful death 21 case. 22 MR. DANDAR: Could we have a date about what 23 we're talking about? 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Can you date that, sir? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 97 1 A Well, I think -- 2 Q Start with Mr. Prince. 3 A If I'm not mistaken, Mr. Prince came down here in 4 1998. He certainly was here for a substantial part of 1999, 5 working for Mr. Dandar. And in the year 2000 when -- by 6 this time, you know, the LMT is formed. And, you know, he's 7 working at the LMT, as well, but working for Mr. Dandar 8 principally, you know, for the first, you know, roughly six 9 months of the year 2000. 10 And then I'm not sure exactly why, but Jesse 11 Prince came back. Instead of working every day at 12 Mr. Dandar's office, he started at the LMT's office, and he 13 would go over to Dandar's office on sort of an as-needed 14 basis. 15 Q And how about Ms. Brooks, the same question? 16 A Well, she was down here sometime in 1998, more 17 frequently in 1999, working with Mr. Dandar. 18 And then, once she was at the LMT, you know, 19 beginning of 2000, she was -- for the first few months of 20 2000 she spent an awful lot of time out of the office 21 working with Mr. Dandar. Sort of the same thing Jesse 22 Prince was doing. 23 Q Were you -- were you communicating with Mr. Prince 24 about his work at -- with Mr. Dandar? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 98 1 Q And did you have an understanding whether or not 2 Mr. Dandar knew this was going on, this communication 3 between you and Mr. Prince? 4 A Yes. We had -- in fact, we had disputes about the 5 communication, as well. 6 Q And did you have communications with Ms. Brooks 7 about the work she was doing with Mr. Dandar? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And did you understand that Mr. Dandar knew those 10 communications were going on? 11 A Absolutely. 12 Q I think there was testimony that you I'm sure read 13 that Ms. Brooks said that Mr. Prince and she were your eyes 14 and ears in the office. Is that your understanding? 15 A That -- that was pretty accurate. 16 THE COURT: Did she say Mr. Prince was? Or did 17 she say she was? 18 MR. FUGATE: Well, I may have written it down 19 wrong, but -- 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Well, let me ask you, so there is no confusion -- 22 THE COURT: Well, he really ought to be able to 23 tell us who he thought were his eyes and ears were. 24 But I thought her testimony was she said she was. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 99 1 MR. FUGATE: I was going to ask, your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: What? What her testimony was what 3 he read in the transcript? 4 MR. FUGATE: No. I was going to ask him his 5 understanding. 6 THE COURT: What he read in the transcript? 7 MR. FUGATE: No, what his understanding -- 8 well, let's move on, Judge. It would be easier. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Now, at the time in '98 and '99 when Mr. Prince 11 and Ms. Brooks were here in Florida, were they, to your 12 understanding, working on any affidavits? 13 A Well, I know Jesse Prince was at some stage, he 14 ended up -- I don't know whether he wrote more than one, but 15 he certainly wrote one. 16 Q And in your -- 17 A But he also was working -- I don't know whether it 18 was while he was down here, but I tend to think it was, that 19 he was working on affidavits for Leipold in California in 20 connection with the Wollersheim case, or FACTNet, or Lopez. 21 Q And was Ms. Brooks similarly engaged with 22 affidavits out there? 23 A I don't think she's written any affidavits in 24 recent years. But, I mean, she was, you know, active with 25 regards to the attorneys, Dan Leipold, Ford Greene, with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 100 1 regard to those cases, yes. 2 Q And would this be the subject -- the affidavits 3 being written and used in litigation that you have 4 described, would that be the subject of postings -- Internet 5 postings by you and others in the critic community? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And were those the subject of any communications 8 with you and Mr. Dandar? 9 MR. DANDAR: Leading. 10 THE COURT: See, the problem is he can answer 11 that yes or no when you say "Isn't it true that," so 12 overruled. 13 A I'm sorry, would you ask the question again. 14 THE REPORTER: "Question: And were those the 15 subject of any communications with you and 16 Mr. Dandar?" 17 MR. DANDAR: Leading. 18 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I missed the first 19 part of what you said. 20 THE REPORTER: "Question: And were those the 21 subject of any communications with you and 22 Mr. Dandar?" 23 THE WITNESS: Now I'm going to have to ask you 24 to read the one before that, too. 25 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to rephrase it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 101 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q I had asked you were the affidavits that were 3 being written and utilized in the other cases that you 4 described, were those the subject of postings between you 5 and the critic community? 6 A Yes. I'm sorry. 7 Q Then my question was did you -- I don't even 8 remember, whatever the last question was was my question, if 9 you can remember that. 10 A I can't. 11 THE COURT: If nobody can remember it, it 12 probably wasn't very important. So why don't you 13 move to your next one. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Were you in communication with Mr. Dandar about 16 how you wanted the wrongful death case litigated? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And how were you communicating your wishes to 19 Mr. Dandar? 20 A Mmm, verbally. 21 Q Can you describe how? 22 A Yes. You know, soon after the first check that I 23 sent to him back in October of 1997, you know, I posted a 24 message on the Internet a couple of days later and sent him 25 a copy of it, you know, saying that, you know, I wanted Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 102 1 David Miscavige charged with murder. 2 You know, Mr. Dandar -- I either heard or read him 3 testify in this case, or maybe it was in Judge Baird's case, 4 that he was kind of leery of me at the beginning, but when 5 he first -- when he first got this check. But, you know, by 6 the time the check cleared, I can tell you that this guy was 7 no longer leery. 8 You know, I received from Mr. Dandar, within a 9 month of that first check, a draft of the first amended 10 complaint in this case, or what was to be the first amended 11 complaint. 12 And, you know, he was already, even in 1997, 13 trying to add additional parties to the case, you know. And 14 those parties -- I'm not sure whether David Miscavige was 15 named, or whether it was just RTC, but I remember that there 16 was, you know, a draft that was talking about adding 17 additional parties. 18 And, you know, I asked Mr. Dandar, you know, after 19 I'd sent him a copy of this posting on the Internet, as to, 20 you know, why there wasn't any more inflammatory language in 21 the draft. 22 Q Did you get a response? 23 A Well, this thing evolved over -- to use 24 Mr. Dandar's term, this thing evolved over a period of a few 25 weeks. And he eventually put some pretty highly Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 103 1 inflammatory language in what ultimately ended up being the 2 first amended complaint, including the word "murder." 3 Q What sort of inflammatory things did you want him 4 to include in the complaint, from your perspective? 5 A Well, anything that was, you know, going to give 6 Scientology the worst possible light, not just in the case, 7 but just period. 8 Q And were you discussing your wishes with 9 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince? 10 A Well, not at that moment. Not at that moment. 11 Because I think I'd only met Stacy Brooks -- well, I met her 12 after that, I believe. But later I did, yeah. 13 Q And as the process evolved that you have been 14 describing as far as communicating what you wished done, is 15 that -- did there come a time in that process when 16 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince were here in Florida? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And would you communicate, through them, your 19 wishes? 20 A Well, yes, I did. And principally what those 21 wishes were is more emphasis on the Scientology -- what I 22 referred to as the Scientology aspects of the case. And -- 23 Q Did you -- did you understand, as this 24 relationship developed, that there was a trial team? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 104 1 Q And who did you understand, from your perspective, 2 was on the trial team? 3 A Well, Dr. Garko. I don't believe he was on it 4 right at the beginning when they first started coming down 5 here. I don't remember the dates that he sort of got 6 involved in this. But ultimately it was Dr. Garko, 7 Mr. Dandar, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince. And, you know, that 8 was sort of the nucleus of it. And there were others that 9 were sort of on the edges of it, including me. 10 Q Did you understand Mr. Dandar to consider you part 11 of the trial team, from your perspective? 12 A Well, you know, based on his sharing of 13 information, you know, I figured that -- I mean, I think 14 anything he shared with them he shared with me. 15 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, Judge? 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Did that understanding continue up into 2002, sir? 19 A Yes, it did. 20 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 21 Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 MR. FUGATE: I need to approach the clerk, 24 first. This will be Defendant's Exhibit Number 95. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 105 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q May I ask you to take a look at a copy of a 3 document I placed before you and ask you if you can identify 4 that document. 5 A Yes. This is a letter from -- 6 Q Well, can you identify the document? 7 A Yes. I can. 8 Q Is this a document you received? 9 A Yes. It's a copy of it. That is correct. 10 Q A copy of it. And it's two pages. Did you get 11 both pages at the same time? 12 A I did. 13 MR. FUGATE: I would move 95 into evidence. 14 THE COURT: Any objection? 15 MR. DANDAR: It is marked confidential. I am 16 surprised at counsel using a confidential document. 17 THE COURT: Well, it is marked confidential to 18 this man. I don't know why that is. But, I mean, 19 is he part of your trial team? If so I'll sustain 20 the objection. But, if not, which I think is your 21 position, I'll have to overrule it. 22 MR. DANDAR: Well, you are right, Judge, he's 23 not. 24 THE COURT: Overruled. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 106 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Did you provide this document to us, sir? 3 A I did. 4 Q And did you receive it on or about March of 2002? 5 A Yes, I did. I think it came by courier. So it 6 probably arrived the day after this. 7 Q Did something come with it? 8 A Yes. A telephone encryption device. 9 Q Had you requested a telephone encryption device? 10 A No. 11 Q Could you read the letter, please. 12 A "Dear Mr. Minton --" well, it starts out -- 13 THE COURT: Why do we need this read? Since 14 it's an exhibit, why do we need the whole letter 15 read? 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Does the "Re:" line indicate it was in the 18 McPherson versus Scientology case? 19 A Yes. That is correct. 20 Q And does it indicate that it's to -- the purpose 21 of the device is for your use -- 22 THE COURT: If we'll have a bunch of questions 23 about it, go ahead and have him read it. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Would you just read it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 107 1 A "Dear Mr. Minton: Allow me to reintroduce myself. 2 We met a few years ago, prior to the deposition of Karsten 3 Lorenzen." K-A-R-S-T-E-N, last name Lorenzen, 4 L-O-R-E-N-Z-E-N, pronounced Lorenzen. 5 "I am Mr. Dandar's video production specialist. 6 Ken has asked me to forward the enclosed telephone 7 encryption device to your attention and request that it be 8 used for future conversations between you and other members 9 of the trial team. 10 "While I cannot guarantee this to be a hundred 11 percent solution, I do expect it to go a long way toward 12 keeping 'their' noses out of our business. 13 "Ken has also asked me to find out from you how 14 many other individuals on your end will be needing these 15 devices and to facilitate their distribution. 16 "The invoice enclosed is for our cost and for the 17 cost of shipping. 18 "Please feel free to contact me if you have any 19 questions. 20 "Very truly yours, Rick Spector." 21 Q And on the second page, sir, there is a note. Can 22 you read the note? 23 A The handwritten note on the invoice? 24 Q Yes. 25 THE COURT: Well, he needs to identify that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 108 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Well, yes, can you identify that was the note on 3 the invoice when you got it? 4 A Yes. This was the invoice that came with that 5 letter. And this was the handwritten note that was on it. 6 And I believe it was in blue ink. 7 Q Can you read what it says? 8 A "You may wish to use money order to preclude 9 trace." Underlined. Then Rick Spector's initials. 10 THE COURT: Why? Did you use this thing? I'm 11 not sure what it is, but I guess it is a phone that 12 scrambles things that maybe folks on a wire tap 13 couldn't hear? 14 THE WITNESS: That is right. 15 THE COURT: So did you believe the Church of 16 Scientology had placed an illegal wire on your phone 17 or Mr. Dandar's phone? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I -- I didn't think so. 19 But Mr. Dandar felt so. 20 THE COURT: Why did you use it then? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I never used it, number 22 one. But just let me explain. 23 Back in February when Mr. Dandar came up to New 24 Hampshire for this weekend meeting, you know, just a 25 week or two before this letter, I mean, even coming Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 109 1 from the airport, when I picked Mr. Dandar up, he 2 starts telling me about how, you know, the dome 3 light in my car could be used for a bugging device 4 because it would provide constant power. And, you 5 know, he was totally of the belief that he was being 6 bugged by Scientology, and that if he was being 7 bugged, for sure I was being bugged. 8 So this -- this encryption device was -- it was 9 really for a specific purpose, you know. Dandar 10 wanted to talk about the money that was going to 11 come, and he wanted this thing so that nobody knew 12 about it. 13 And, you know, I didn't ask for this phone 14 encryption device. When it came, it didn't work. 15 It had been taken out of the original box, it had 16 been put in by the factory and changed into some 17 other box. Perhaps Mr. Spector mixed it up or 18 dropped it on the floor. And I had to send it back 19 to the factory to get it to work. 20 Mr. Dandar bought a similar device for his 21 phone at the same time. His didn't work, either, 22 because of the PBX system he had in his office. And 23 his secretary sent it back to the factory, as well; 24 but she didn't send it by overnight mail, she sent 25 it regular mail. And so when I got mine back from Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 110 1 the factory, mine was working, but he -- it took him 2 a while before he got his back. And, you know, by 3 then, we had already dealt with the issue of the 4 money and it was pretty late. And I have never used 5 it since. 6 THE COURT: But I assume even if you want it 7 for a very specific purpose, that is, talking about 8 the money, the only reason why you and I want to 9 have a phone conversation about money, and 10 presumably nobody has illegally put the bug on our 11 phone, when I talk on the phone, it would be 12 perfectly fine, nobody would know about it but you 13 and me. 14 THE WITNESS: I assume so. 15 THE COURT: So I presume there must have been 16 some thought there was an illegal wire tapping going 17 on here. And I certainly get that same information 18 from the -- from reading Ms. Brooks' posting about 19 the harassment, that there -- 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- appeared to be people knowing 22 your every move, the insinuation being someone was 23 listening to your phone calls. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, what we 25 discovered, there are a lot easier ways to do that, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 111 1 you know, to find out, you know, how people move 2 around, you know, where they're going. I mean, it 3 has been our experience that this is not so 4 difficult to find out. And -- and especially when 5 you have somebody close to you who is providing 6 information that would enable people to monitor your 7 movements more closely. And that is a much more 8 common thing than this phone tap thing which 9 Mr. Dandar was concerned about. And I genuinely -- 10 THE COURT: Come on, Mr. Minton. You, too, 11 were concerned that your phones were being bugged, 12 weren't you? 13 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: You never were? 15 THE WITNESS: I thought about it at times. 16 But -- 17 THE COURT: And Ms. Brooks wasn't, either? 18 THE WITNESS: She was not concerned about it. 19 THE COURT: Okay. So neither you nor 20 Ms. Brooks ever believed your phone was being 21 illegally tapped by the Church of Scientology? Is 22 that what you're telling me here today? 23 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I didn't say there was never 24 a time we didn't believe it. But, your Honor, we 25 purchased a very expensive piece of equipment that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 112 1 would help us to determine if there were bugs down 2 here in this office in Florida. We hired outside 3 people to come in and check. And I say "we," it 4 wasn't me doing this. This was a concern of 5 everybody who was around here. 6 THE COURT: So you weren't concerned, but yet 7 you hired people to come in and sweep your place? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, let me tell you, 9 Mr. Dandar's private eye, Mr. Dandar's private eye, 10 Ray Emmons, swore up and down Ken Dandar's office 11 was bugged, our office was bugged. We got people to 12 come in and check it out. There was never any bugs 13 found, when everybody was sure there were bugs. We 14 even bought an expensive piece of equipment that 15 could detect these types of things. 16 When the LMT closed down, that equipment was 17 sent up to my house in New Hampshire. I have never 18 used it. 19 You know, there is nothing I have ever said on 20 the telephone about the Church of Scientology that I 21 wouldn't expect to end up in the New York Times. 22 You know, I have got nothing to hide from them. 23 THE COURT: Okay. I just wondered why we were 24 sending out the encryption devices. 25 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said, your Honor, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 113 1 didn't request this encryption device. Mr. Dandar 2 told me he was going to get these, on the telephone, 3 the day before they were sent. I said fine. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q What did you understand the notation "You may wish 7 to use a money order to avoid a trace" mean? 8 A To preclude trace. Well, you know, I just thought 9 that was a pretty strange statement at the time for 10 Mr. Spector to have written. I mean, it was obviously -- 11 you don't want Scientology to find out you are paying for 12 this or that we're buying these things, so maybe you want to 13 use some sort of untraceable money to do it, or untraceable 14 document -- you know, instrument. 15 Q Do you know Rick Spector? 16 A I -- as the letter said, I have met him a few 17 years before. He wasn't somebody that I was familiar with, 18 other than his name. 19 But he was -- you know, in addition to being a 20 videographer, as he says here, he's also Mr. Dandar's 21 security consultant and private investigator, in addition to 22 Mr. Emmons. 23 Q Do you see him present in the court today? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Where is he? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 114 1 A He's to the right of Mr. Dandar, as I'm sitting. 2 THE COURT: I take it we can assume that he is, 3 indeed, part of Mr. Dandar's trial team. 4 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Spector? 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Although he's an independent 7 contractor. 8 THE COURT: Pardon me? 9 MR. DANDAR: He's an independent contractor. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Now, on the subject of phones, when the LMT was 12 formed, were there phones utilized to communicate among the 13 LMT folks? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And what sort of phones were they? 16 A They were Nextel phones, you know, the little flip 17 kinds. 18 MR. FUGATE: While we're looking for that, 19 Judge. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Did you, in your relationship with Mr. Dandar, 22 assist him in his website preparation or anything to do with 23 his website? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And what did you do? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 115 1 A Well, I just -- you know, I didn't do much. He -- 2 MR. FUGATE: May I approach? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 THE WITNESS: Can I continue? 5 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to give you an exhibit 6 to take a look at. You can go ahead. 7 A Well, he wanted a domain in his own name. And so 8 I registered Dandarlaw.com, I believe, and Dandar.com. Yes, 9 I see Dandar.law. 10 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. 11 THE COURT: Are you addressing me, Counselor? 12 MR. DANDAR: Relevance, Judge. Sorry. 13 THE COURT: All right. Relevance? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I think it shows an 15 association between Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar. And 16 it shows, as the contact -- administrative contact 17 for Dandarlaw.com. 18 THE COURT: I don't know what this is. Do 19 lawyers have their own websites these days? 20 MR. FUGATE: What it is, it's attached, the 21 website that lists the law firm and talks about the 22 lawyers. It -- 23 THE COURT: Is this something lawyers -- 24 lawyers have? 25 MR. FUGATE: It's something that lawyers have, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 116 1 as I understand it, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. FUGATE: I never had one. 4 THE COURT: Nothing here regarding Lisa 5 McPherson? 6 MR. FUGATE: No, except that it's registered by 7 Mr. Minton. The contact point is Bob@Minton.org 8 which you made reference to before. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Let me ask you, Mr. Minton, was there a purpose in 11 trying to get a website started for Mr. Dandar? 12 A Well, Mr. Dandar wanted a domain. 13 THE COURT: I don't see -- I'm not very smart 14 about this stuff. What is a domain? 15 THE WITNESS: You know, when you 16 have www.lisatrust.net, the domain is the Lisatrust 17 part. Dandarlaw is the domain. So it would 18 be www.dandarlaw.com. So he can have his E-mail at 19 Dandarlaw.com or whatever he wanted. 20 But he didn't know how to go about registering 21 a domain. So I registered it for him. Also as I 22 said, another one, Dandar.com. 23 THE COURT: I kind of tend to agree. I think 24 it is kind of obvious Mr. Dandar and this man were 25 friends. He needed help doing some of this, this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 117 1 man had some expertise, and he did it for him. 2 I'm going to let it in. But the truth of the 3 matter is I'm not sure what the relevance is. So 4 I'll let it in. 5 MR. FUGATE: I just offered it for the -- for 6 the association and the contact, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Am I right about this, at this 8 point in time when you were doing this, you-all 9 established some sort of friendship? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. It was just purely a favor 11 to him. 12 THE COURT: Right. This was not -- this was 13 not the Lisa McPherson case or anything like this; 14 this was a friend that wanted a website or domain? 15 THE WITNESS: He wanted a domain. And I just 16 did it for him. 17 THE COURT: So -- 18 THE WITNESS: I mean, I paid for it, you know. 19 It wasn't a big deal, whether he reimbursed me or 20 not. But -- 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q How much does something like that cost? 23 A Mmm, I think it's like $40 or $50 a year. I don't 24 know, he had it maybe three years. After our last 25 deposition, I transferred the administrative contact to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 118 1 Mr. Dandar -- technical contact. I'm sorry. 2 Q I presume the bill, as well? 3 A No, I didn't, actually. But Mr. Rosen or 4 Mr. Moxon was making a big deal out of this so I transferred 5 the technical contact to Mr. Dandar. 6 Q Now, I had asked you about the Nextel phones you 7 used. And -- 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, these are the Nextel bills. 9 And I think maybe what I'll do is wait until the 10 break, give them to the clerk, I'll give a copy to 11 Mr. Dandar, and come back and ask questions about 12 that. 13 THE COURT: What are they? 14 MR. FUGATE: These are the Nextel cell phone 15 bills. And they're going to be a little bit 16 involved in going through. 17 THE COURT: So, in other words, there are going 18 to be dates and phone calls we're going to have to 19 refer to these? Is that the purpose? 20 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. FUGATE: But I'll come back to them. 23 THE COURT: Well, do you want to do it now if 24 we're to that, and go ahead and get them all in 25 and -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 119 1 MR. FUGATE: It probably would be a good 2 time -- 3 THE COURT: A good time to take a break? 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: Well, it has been an hour and 6 fifteen minutes. I guess nobody seems to mind when 7 we take a break, so we'll be in recess fifteen 8 minutes. 9 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, you actually have in front 12 of you the original -- or the file copy of the 13 records. And as I suspected when I looked back 14 there, I'm a copy short. So I'm going to ask a 15 couple questions and move to another area. And then 16 over the break I'll -- 17 THE COURT: These are the clerk's copies? The 18 originals? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes, I'll get additional copies 20 made because -- 21 THE COURT: I'd just as soon, unless I really 22 need those, not have that stack. 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't have one either. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. FUGATE: So I'm going to move through this, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 120 1 then move on to another area. And I have given 2 Mr. Dandar a copy. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. FUGATE: And it's marked as Defendant's 5 Exhibit 97, I believe. 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Mr. Minton, did you receive a subpoena for your 9 Nextel phone records? I'm going to ask you to look at the 10 first paper that is pulled up there. Actually, pull 11 everything that is sticking up. That is what I'm going to 12 ask you about. Nextel, for your records, I should say. I'm 13 sorry. 14 A Yes. 15 Q Does this subpoena appear to be for your Nextel 16 phone records, if you look at the yellow part back there? I 17 think it is on the second or third page. 18 A Yes. 19 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness? 20 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 21 A I see it, yes. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Okay. Would you look at the face pages and see if 24 you can identify the Nextel bill as it starts out? Do you 25 see that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 121 1 A Yes. I see it. 2 Q And can you identify that as copies of the Nextel 3 phone records that were subpoenaed by the subpoena -- or 4 copy of the subpoena that is there? 5 A Yes. It appears to me to be that. Yes. 6 MR. FUGATE: Unless there is an objection, I 7 would move the composite exhibit in, and I'll just 8 ask a couple questions and move on, and then come 9 back to it if I need to, Judge, when I have more 10 copies of the individual -- 11 THE COURT: Any objection? 12 MR. DANDAR: I object to relevance. I need to 13 have -- to make sure that this witness -- if these 14 phone records are in his name or somebody else's 15 name. 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to ask to look at 17 the first four months and see who the phone was 18 registered to. And then if you look past that, 19 you'll see it is -- 20 MR. DANDAR: If it is registered as I see it on 21 the first page, of Dandar & Dandar, PA, privileged 22 phone records. We did not approve of this at all. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, then I'll come back 25 to them, because they're the Nextel records of LMT Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 122 1 and Mr. Minton. But they were registered there for 2 four months and then were changed. But I'll come 3 back to it. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR. FUGATE: Can I retrieve it? 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 THE COURT: Well, let me see the subpoena. 8 MR. FUGATE: Sure. 9 THE COURT: What does the subpoena say? Does 10 it refer to a phone number? Or does it refer to -- 11 THE WITNESS: I believe it was my phone 12 records, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay, the subpoena, that does 14 appear to be directed to the custodian of the 15 records at Nextel Communications. The list of 16 documents to be produced appears to be any and all 17 documents concerning telephone and billing records 18 for Robert S. Minton from November of '99 to 19 December of 2001. 20 MR. FUGATE: Listed to those Nextel phones. 21 THE COURT: I don't see any phones, listed to 22 any Nextel phones. 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, that is what is in the pages 24 that are after that. It identifies the number of 25 phones. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 123 1 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, I didn't give that to 2 your Honor. Here is the rest of it. I'm sorry. 3 THE COURT: Well, who is this? Whose is this? 4 It says Dandar & Dandar, PA. 5 MR. FUGATE: Let me ask, if I can. 6 THE COURT: No, I want to know whether this, 7 the subpoena here, is for records, and I can see 8 that -- maybe I should look -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, what happened, the subpoena 10 is directed to all phone records. And the phone 11 that -- or the phones, plural, that these go to 12 started out listed to Dandar & Dandar, although they 13 were utilized by LMT, then ultimately switched to 14 Mr. Minton's -- 15 THE COURT: I need to ask a question. When a 16 subpoena duces tecum is issued in a case and there 17 is opposing counsel, do you not send them notice? 18 MR. MOXON: Let me explain. This was my 19 subpoena. 20 We said we were trying to subpoena the LMT 21 records. And they had a regular phone and a Nextel 22 phone. All of the LMT people all have their little 23 Nextel phones. 24 Nextel said, "Well, we actually don't have any 25 records for LMT," and they told us that their phones Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 124 1 were listed under Mr. Minton's name. 2 So we sent them a new subpoena under 3 Mr. Minton's name. And you may recall when the 4 records came in, the records -- it was set for a 5 deposition, but the records were sent to me before 6 the deposition occurred. 7 At that point we entered into a stipulation of 8 Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan and I that these records 9 would all go over to the -- to the discovery master. 10 They all went over to the discovery master and they 11 were looked at and realized these are all of the LMT 12 records. 13 THE COURT: Who is the discovery master? 14 MR. MOXON: That was Mr. Keane. Pursuant to 15 the stipulation, the agreement of the other side, 16 Mr. McGowan representing LMT, said these are all LMT 17 records. 18 THE COURT: Mr. McGowan represented LMT? 19 MR. MOXON: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Well -- 21 MR. MOXON: These are all LMT phone records 22 under Mr. Minton's name. Mr. Dandar registered the 23 LMT phone, but these are all LMT phone records. 24 THE COURT: Okay. I guess it doesn't answer my 25 question. My question is, is when you have a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 125 1 subpoena duces tecum that goes out in a case, do you 2 not give notice to the other side -- 3 MR. MOXON: Of course. 4 THE COURT: -- so they can object? 5 MR. MOXON: Of course. 6 THE COURT: Where is the notice that is given 7 to Mr. Dandar on that? 8 MR. MOXON: He got notice. Everyone got notice 9 of it. You may not have the notice with that 10 subpoena that is in your hand, but I can certainly 11 provide it to you. Of course everyone got notice. 12 That is why a motion for protective order was filed 13 after the motion went out. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I anticipated the questions 16 you were asking. I was going to go back and get the 17 documentation for you and go through it again. 18 THE COURT: Well, when somebody doesn't have an 19 objection, because something appears to be 20 requesting records of somebody, and the next thing 21 you know, law firm records are being produced, and 22 the other side, if they don't know that, there has 23 to be some problem with that. 24 So, Mr. Dandar, was he aware that Nextel was 25 getting ready to dole out his PA, Dandar & Dandar, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 126 1 PA, phone records to the Church of Scientology? 2 MR. MOXON: They are not his phone records. 3 They are LMT phone records. 4 THE COURT: Well, if it says "Dandar & Dandar, 5 PA." Did anybody ever advise him, for example, of 6 that? 7 MR. MOXON: Well, I actually don't know because 8 we didn't see the phone records until Mr. McGowan 9 authorized them, after reviewing them, to be 10 released to us as LMT's records. So it was only 11 after LMT's counsel conceded these are LMT's 12 records -- 13 THE COURT: Well, is this after the LMT and the 14 Church of Scientology were in friendly negotiations 15 where they were trying to cooperate with the Church 16 to bring about a global settlement? 17 THE WITNESS: We were not cooperating at that 18 time, your Honor. 19 MR. MOXON: The motion was filed long ago. 20 MR. FUGATE: I don't have the subpoena to look 21 at the date, Judge. That might help. But -- 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. FUGATE: If it even -- 24 THE COURT: Dated February 11 of 2002. 25 MR. MOXON: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 127 1 THE COURT: Wasn't there some negotiations 2 going on then? 3 MR. MOXON: No. 4 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 5 MR. FUGATE: No. 6 THE COURT: No? Well, I'm not letting you have 7 any records of Dandar & Dandar, PA unless you can 8 show me somehow or another that Mr. Dandar agreed 9 with that. You can't get into a law firm's records. 10 I don't care what anybody says. 11 MR. MOXON: Again, your Honor, these are not 12 Dandar & Dandar, PA phone records. They are LMT 13 phone records. 14 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 15 THE COURT: He objected. I sustained the 16 objection. It is just that simple. Move on. 17 MR. FUGATE: Fine, Judge. That is what we 18 suggest. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Mr. Minton, if I could direct your attention to 21 August of 1999, did you have any meetings with Mr. Dandar in 22 August of 1999? 23 A Yes. I did. 24 Q And can you tell us, to the best of your 25 recollection, where and when? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 128 1 A I believe it was in Philadelphia on May 26, maybe 2 the night of the 25th and 26th. 3 Q May, or August, sir? 4 A Mmm, I -- I can tell by the date of the check, if 5 I can just get my little thing out, again. 6 Q I had left the exhibits up there, exhibit checks, 7 unless we knocked them off. 8 A Oh, yes, that is the way. Yes. Sorry. 9 Q Except now I have forgotten the number. I think 10 it is 93E. 11 A Oh, yeah. It is on the top. Yes, I'm sorry. 12 That was August. 13 Q And obviously you were referencing the check. 14 Which check are we looking at there, for the record? 15 A It is check 93E, payable to Dandar & Dandar, for 16 $250,000. 17 Q What is the date it was issued? 18 A August 27th. That is the date -- you know, the 19 date that was written on the check. 20 Q Was that the date that you gave it to Mr. Dandar? 21 A I -- I believe I gave it to him on the 26th at 22 night. 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what was the year, 24 8/27 -- 25 A '99. I didn't have money in my checking account. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 129 1 And I told him I was going to transfer money in that 2 checking account, so I was going to postdate it by a day. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q And can you tell us about the meeting that you 5 had -- 6 THE COURT: Would you-all give me just a 7 second. I want to listen carefully, yet I'm trying 8 to deal with something as acting chief, and I'm not 9 having good success in keeping my head in two 10 places. 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, join with me -- 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry, this has come up and I 13 really need to take care of it. And as I said, I am 14 acting chief. And I really need to deal with it. 15 And I thought I could maybe listen and deal with it, 16 but I can't because I find myself looking here and 17 I'm not hearing that. And so sometimes I can do two 18 things at one time but -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Tell me what you want me to do. 20 THE COURT: I want you to stop and let me take 21 enough time to deal with it. I'm sorry, I hate to 22 give you all another break, but I just need to tend 23 to this. We'll be in recess until -- well, until 24 I'm done. 25 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 130 1 THE COURT: You may be seated. I think I have 2 my mind all in one place. 3 (A discussion was held off the record.) 4 MR. WEINBERG: Going back to the phone records 5 for a second? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 MR. WEINBERG: We'll cover it in more detail on 8 Tuesday. I just wanted to explain one thing that is 9 confusing when you look at it. 10 We -- we requested the production from Nextel 11 of the records of LMT, first. And Nextel said they 12 didn't have records of LMT, they had records of 13 Robert Minton. So we requested the production, we 14 subpoenaed Nextel for the records of Robert Minton. 15 And what came back was what is in those folders 16 there. 17 And as a result of that, there were these -- 18 there were these motions that were filed both by 19 Stacy Brooks and by Mr. Minton to try to prevent it. 20 There were hearings. Mr. Dandar was part of that 21 process. 22 The records themselves, if you go through them 23 you will see that these are -- even though the first 24 three months of whatever it is, a year and a half or 25 two-year period, the first few bills went to Dandar Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 131 1 & Dandar, the records are not Ken Dandar and Dandar 2 & Dandar records. They are phone records of the 3 people at LMT, including Mr. Minton, Mr. Prince, 4 Ms. Brooks. 5 They had a series -- they had a network of -- 6 of Nextel phones. This is this network. That -- 7 they are not Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Dandar didn't have 8 one of those as part of these records, or his law 9 firm. 10 After the first three months, the bills in 11 there are then directed to Mr. Minton in care of the 12 LMT, if I'm correct. 13 And the point was, A, there are many important 14 calls in there from people at the LMT, including 15 Mr. Minton, to Mr. Dandar and others. 16 And, secondly, the fact that -- in other words, 17 indicating -- indicating contact, a lot of contact, 18 which obviously is an issue as to what participation 19 or -- or control or involvement Mr. Minton had with 20 regard to Mr. Dandar in the prosecution of the 21 wrongful death case. Oh, five hundred calls, you 22 are going to see. 23 And, secondly, the fact that the first few 24 months were sent to Dandar & Dandar is further 25 indication, I believe, that there was -- that there Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 132 1 was a real -- you know, a relationship between the 2 LMT and the people at the LMT and, you know, 3 Mr. Dandar, which is part of what this hearing is 4 about. That is what it is. 5 We can sort that through on Tuesday, which is 6 fine. But when one looks at these records, these 7 are not Ken Dandar phone records, these are not 8 Dandar & Dandar phone records; these are phone 9 records of Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks, Jesse Prince and 10 other people at the -- at LMT. That is what they 11 are. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 Mr. Dandar? 14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, when you make up a notice 15 of deposition to Mr. Moxon for records and you put 16 on Robert Minton's name, then you cancel the 17 deposition and take the records because they were -- 18 the phone company sent them to you ahead of time so 19 they don't have to come to the deposition, that 20 violates the rule. 21 I go by the rules. And my name is on the first 22 three months of those depositions, I was never 23 noticed for that. It is improper. It is the first 24 time I saw it, by the way. 25 But what Mr. Minton will explain to you, and I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 133 1 would assume accurately, LMT did not have credit. 2 So I did them a favor, I added them onto my account, 3 and then I separated that account. 4 But this whole procedure of how they went about 5 obtaining those records without notice to me was 6 improper. And that is why I objected to it. 7 Now, maybe just a technical violation of the 8 rules, which it is a violation of the rules, but I 9 objected to it because they weren't following the 10 rules then, and now they're trying to make it an 11 exhibit. And I just brought it to your attention, 12 but it's probably a whole bunch of argument about 13 nothing. I brought it to your attention because it 14 is a technical and it's a real -- 15 THE COURT: Well, one of the things that 16 concerns me, and one thing I'm obviously trying to 17 protect here, as I would any lawyer, is anybody else 18 getting a hold of a lawyer's phone records that 19 would reveal, presumably, all manner of calls to 20 clients and what have you that they had no business, 21 anybody, knowing who they are or anything of the 22 sort. 23 Do you agree that these records, if you'll take 24 the time between now and Tuesday to go through them, 25 whatever these are that have your name on them, that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 134 1 they're not records of you calling your clients or 2 your clients calling you, that gives me some, Mmm -- 3 you know, I'll deal with the technical inadequacy or 4 not differently. But I will not deal with 5 privileged phone records being used in this hearing 6 or any other hearing. 7 And I will ask that they be returned, if, in 8 fact, the Church of Scientology has phone records of 9 your law office between you and your clients. 10 MR. DANDAR: I would have to look at the 11 records. 12 THE COURT: So I think I really can't resolve 13 this until he has a chance to look at these records 14 and tells me. That makes a difference to me. 15 MR. MOXON: Could I add a couple things for the 16 record, your Honor? 17 Firstly, there was a certificate of service to 18 Mr. Dandar where he was noticed for the deposition 19 on the phone records. I found a copy of it now. 20 Then, after the records came in, I let everyone 21 know that the records had been sent to me prior to 22 the deposition and I didn't open them, I didn't open 23 a single one. And I informed Mr. McGowan and 24 Mr. Howie and Mr. Dandar about this. And we 25 stipulated to an order that -- that the Court signed Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 135 1 appointing a special master to handle these 2 telephone records. 3 Here is a copy of the order that your Honor 4 signed. 5 And -- I'm sorry, here is a copy of the cover 6 letter indicating, also, service to Mr. Dandar, 7 Mr. Howie, Mr. McGowan and I. 8 So this is how it was handled. Mr. Dandar's 9 assertion he didn't have notice of this or that 10 there is anything improper about the procedure is 11 just not very accurate. 12 THE COURT: Well, you know, naturally you-all 13 don't agree on much and you never have and you 14 probably never will. 15 I'm looking at -- if I were a lawyer, whether I 16 was noticed or whether I wasn't, and a deposition 17 went out that said you are to produce to me -- 18 MR. FUGATE: I took that back and put it in the 19 packet, Judge, if that is what you are looking for. 20 THE COURT: Well, I think it is here. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: The custodians of records to bring 23 documents concerning telephone and billing records 24 for Robert S .Minton from November of '99 to 25 December 2001, you know, I would assume they would Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 136 1 be bringing records with Mr. Minton's name on them 2 or -- 3 MR. MOXON: Sure. 4 THE COURT: -- or if I had known before it was 5 LMT, and now they were sending Robert Minton, they 6 would have "Robert Minton" on them. I don't know I 7 would care. 8 I would care if it -- including if they are 9 Dandar & Dandar, PA records, I would have said, 10 "Whoa, just a minute." 11 MR. MOXON: Sure. Absolutely. 12 THE COURT: So I'm not sure either of you are 13 saying anything really different. But it does 14 appear you got notice of all this. 15 MR. DANDAR: Oh, I got notice for a deposition. 16 This was not the 10-day rule procedure where you can 17 mail in the records and there is no deposition. 18 This is a deposition which is on our calendar, we 19 are ready to come to it, "Oh, we canceled it because 20 we got the records." 21 That is not the way it is done. And my name 22 doesn't appear on the subpoena, so I could care less 23 about the records until I see them for the first 24 time in court today that has "Dandar & Dandar" on 25 the first three months. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 137 1 THE COURT: Okay. Now I think I understand. 2 Normally, these things do go out, as I recall, some 3 sort of notice. If I don't receive an objection 4 within ten days, then this thing goes out. This 5 looks like what you are saying, this is a notice of 6 taking deposition. 7 MR. DANDAR: Normal deposition. 8 THE COURT: But you would have assumed, if they 9 got the records, that they may not have -- 10 especially if they got this many records -- they 11 weren't going to sit down and go through with some 12 custodian much about this bulk of records. The 13 custodian really couldn't tell them anything. And 14 that is who it is to. 15 So it is pretty clear, I assume, what they were 16 trying to get were these records. 17 MR. DANDAR: But the reason you do it this way, 18 that they set it up, you want someone with a court 19 reporter saying here they are, marked as Exhibit A, 20 these are the official records of Nextel, Robert 21 Minton. You have a record now. 22 Now when they get something like this, no one 23 can authenticate how they got those records because 24 there is no court reporter. 25 So there are two different procedures. They Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 138 1 followed the one for a real deposition, custodian, 2 and then they canceled it and just took the records, 3 apparently. 4 And that is why I'm objecting to the way this 5 was handled. 6 THE COURT: This said: "Dear Judge Schaeffer," 7 this accounts for -- from McGowan & Suarez, this is 8 really from Tom McGowan, with a copy showing going 9 to you, stating I am pleased, which you should be 10 since it was an agreed-upon order, which are few and 11 far between in this case. "I present your Honor 12 with an agreed order dealing with the manner in 13 which discovery of the telephone records is to be 14 handled. All counsel are in concurrence with it." 15 Then it has got your name. And this order is, 16 in essence, to give it to the special master. 17 Let me see what this says. Michael Keane was 18 appointed special master. And this order that you 19 approved said -- you need to read these orders -- 20 represented the telephone records provided to him by 21 Verizon and Nextel, "which records were to have been 22 opened at deposition noticed for March 1, 2001 but 23 canceled by agreement of the parties," which would 24 be you -- "are in his possession and remain under 25 the seal they were when they were sent to him by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 139 1 Verizon and Nextel." 2 So this order, which says here you agreed to 3 it, says that the parties agreed to cancel the 4 deposition. That would be you. 5 MR. DANDAR: I'm not so sure about that but -- 6 but look at -- look what you have in front of you, 7 Judge. Where is the sealed telephone records? How 8 were they unsealed? Why -- 9 THE COURT: I assume they went to Mr. Keane. 10 MR. MOXON: Exactly right, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: And that Keane -- it says 12 thereafter Keane shall unseal the records and 13 categorize the records. 14 This -- again, I signed this. When I hear 15 "agreed" -- I don't even read it, to tell you the 16 truth. When somebody said we have agreed on the 17 order, I say, goodie and I sign it, so I don't know 18 what this order contained. And I'm sure I glanced 19 at it, but I don't read it with the same depth I do 20 when you-all don't agree. 21 "Thereafter, Keane shall unseal the records and 22 shall categorize the records with sufficient 23 specificity that the parties understand what they 24 are, but in a general enough way that the content of 25 the records are not made public. Within five days Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 140 1 thereof, counsel for LMT and Minton shall set forth 2 in writing the identity of all records they agree 3 are discoverable and not subject to privilege. 4 These records shall be turned over to Mr. Moxon, 5 with copies going to all other interested parties in 6 the lawsuit." 7 So did you get them? 8 MR. DANDAR: No. 9 THE COURT: You never got them? 10 MR. DANDAR: No. And my name doesn't appear on 11 there as the stipulated parties, either. 12 I don't want to waste a lot of time on this, 13 Judge. I just wanted to voice my objection to the 14 whole procedure. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, your solution, I 16 think, is -- I think you can see by the orders there 17 is no chicanery. If he wants to look at the records 18 and make sure -- I agree with your Honor. I don't 19 think we would ever ask for law firm telephone 20 records unless there was some notification and some 21 process that occurred. But if he wants to look at 22 the records, we'll come back to it on Tuesday, which 23 I agreed to before we took the break. 24 THE COURT: Okay. It does show you got a copy 25 of this -- of this letter. And -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 141 1 MR. DANDAR: I did. It was Mr. McGowan who was 2 negotiating with Mr. Moxon and Mr. Keane, and he 3 told me that is what they were going to do, I think 4 one or two days before the scheduled deposition. 5 I had no interest in it because it said Robert 6 Minton on the subpoena. 7 THE COURT: So you didn't get a copy of this 8 order? Is what you are saying? 9 MR. DANDAR: I may have. 10 MR. MOXON: He got a copy of the order. In 11 fact, I have the transcript where Mr. Dandar was 12 there present. 13 THE COURT: I don't see certificate of service 14 on this order. 15 MR. MOXON: No. 16 THE COURT: That is unusual. Why isn't there 17 one? 18 MR. MOXON: I have no idea. Mr. McGowan 19 handled it. 20 THE COURT: Well, okay. You will be able to 21 take until Tuesday to look through these records. 22 And if, in fact, there is anything in there that you 23 believe to be privileged in any fashion that relate 24 to the business of your law office and clients, what 25 have you, if you'll bring that to my attention, we Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 142 1 will deal with that at that time. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you. 3 THE COURT: Okay. So maybe you can just move 4 to some other subject to finish off today. 5 MR. FUGATE: I had and I will, Judge. 6 THE COURT: Good. Now, what can I do with 7 this? Because I don't really want it. 8 MR. FUGATE: What do you have there? 9 THE COURT: Notice of taking deposition. And 10 an order. 11 Now, if Mr. Dandar is not sure he has that 12 order, why don't you give him that order. And that 13 is the letter. Give him both of those. 14 MR. FUGATE: All right, I'll take this off. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Mr. Minton -- 20 THE COURT: McGowan, of course, isn't here, but 21 I don't blame him. He has been here a long time. 22 I'm sure he had other work to take care of. 23 Proceed. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Mr. Minton, I think when we broke there, I had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 143 1 asked you to look at an August 27, 1999 check and asked you 2 about a meeting, if I remember correctly. Is that right? 3 A That is correct. 4 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 5 Honor? I'll take this out -- 6 THE COURT: You may -- 7 MR. FUGATE: -- of here, too, just so -- 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Can you -- I think I asked you, just as we were 11 about to break, sir, what -- who was at the meeting and 12 where was the meeting. If I didn't, I'll ask you now. 13 A The meeting was in Philadelphia. Mr. Dandar, I 14 believe, was there for deposition of some sorts. Ms. Brooks 15 and I were traveling at the time. And we said okay, it's 16 sort of on the way back to New Hampshire, we'll stop by 17 Philadelphia on our way. 18 And, you know, Mr. Dandar needed money. That was 19 the purpose of going there. He gave us a little briefing 20 about what was going on in the case. 21 And it had been a subject of fairly intense 22 discussion amongst myself and Stacy Brooks and Jesse Prince 23 that -- 24 Q Could I ask you to stop a minute. 25 What had been the subject of discussion between Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 144 1 you, Ms. Brooks and Mr. Prince? 2 A About focusing more on the Scientology-related 3 issues in this case, the wrongful death case. 4 Q And did those -- those discussions had preceded 5 this meeting? 6 A Yes. 7 Q This August 26, I think you said, '99 meeting? 8 A It might have also been on the 25th at night. 9 There was a morning meeting and an evening meeting. And I 10 forget which -- whether it is the 25th, 26th, 27th; or 26th, 11 27th. 12 Q As I understand, you date the times by the check. 13 It was dated ahead, correct? 14 A Yes, that is correct. There was a meeting on the 15 26th for sure. I don't remember whether we had breakfast 16 that morning, as well. But then we had a meeting in -- I 17 think in Mr. Dandar's hotel room before dinner and a meeting 18 in -- in my hotel room after dinner. And we had gone out to 19 dinner with a couple other people. 20 Q Let's break this down so we can -- what -- which 21 meeting was the check ultimately delivered? 22 A The one on the night of the 26th after dinner. 23 Q And who was present when the check was delivered? 24 A Stacy Brooks was there. I was there. And Ken 25 Dandar was there. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 145 1 Q And who delivered the check to Mr. Dandar? 2 A Well, I wrote it right in front of him and tore it 3 out of my checkbook and handed it to him. 4 Q Prior to that, you said there had been a request 5 for money. Can you tell us what that involved? Who made 6 the request? What was the subject? 7 A Well, Mr. Dandar made a request for additional 8 funds. And, you know, this was done by phone. This wasn't 9 a face-to-face meeting. It was done by phone a few days 10 before this Philadelphia meeting. 11 As I said, Ms. Brooks and I were traveling. At 12 the time, we might have been out in Colorado. I'm not sure 13 really where we were at that stage. 14 And we said: "Okay, fine, we'll meet you in 15 Philadelphia." 16 Q All right. Was there any discussion about whether 17 or not you were going to continue to fund the litigation at 18 this meeting? 19 A Well, there -- not directly. You know -- 20 Q Tell us what happened. 21 A It was a situation where neither Stacy Brooks, 22 myself or Jesse Prince felt that there was being put enough 23 emphasis on the Scientology-related issues in the case. 24 You know, Mr. Dandar had -- by this time, he had 25 plenty of, you know, ammunition in this respect. He had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 146 1 gone through the process of -- with Jesse of this 2 August 20th affidavit which ultimately got used, to add 3 to -- you know, the attempt to add additional parties to the 4 case. 5 But, you know, things were moving kind of slow. 6 And, you know, this was a real push by me, supported by the 7 feelings of Stacy and Jesse. 8 Q For the record, was Mr. Prince present at the 9 meetings that we've been discussing? 10 A He wasn't. No. 11 Q I wasn't clear on that. 12 A Okay. And so, you know, I told Mr. Dandar, you 13 know, "Look, we really need to start pushing this case more 14 on the Scientology front. You know, this is not just a 15 simple wrongful death case. And, you know, this is a case 16 about a Scientologist who died on the introspection 17 rundown." 18 So, you know, Mr. Dandar said, "Look, it is going 19 to cost more money to do this." 20 And I said, "I realize that." 21 So this is the first -- I think this is the first 22 check I gave him that was more than 100,000. This was for 23 250,000. 24 Q And have you got the check there in front of you? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 147 1 Q Or a copy of the check, to be more exact? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Would you read the "for" line where it says "for." 4 A "McPherson." 5 Q Was that notation made by you? 6 A Yes, it was. 7 Q What did that notation mean to you as you noted it 8 on the check for $250,000? 9 A Well, this was for the McPherson case. 10 Q Did Mr. Dandar voice any opposition to your 11 suggestion? 12 A Only that it's going to cost more money. 13 Q And you gave him the check? 14 A Yeah. 15 Q And by this time, which was August of 1999 -- I 16 think I had hopped ahead there earlier this afternoon -- but 17 by this time, August of 1999, was Mr. Prince working at 18 Mr. Dandar's office, to your knowledge? 19 A Yes, he was there, yeah, and working. 20 Q And do you know at this point in time -- do you 21 know if he was being paid by Mr. Dandar to work out of his 22 office? 23 A I -- I'm not exactly clear on the timing of 24 Mr. Prince being paid by Mr. Dandar. You know, it was all 25 just sort of the same thing, to me, the same ball of wax. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 148 1 Q Did you have any understanding of what money was 2 being used to pay Mr. Prince by Mr. Dandar? 3 A Yeah. It was the moneys that I was providing to 4 the estate. 5 Q And by this time, was Ms. Brooks working actually 6 out of Mr. Dandar's office, do you recall, August of 1999 7 and thereafter? 8 A You know, I don't think she was full-time down in 9 Tampa. 10 Q I'm asking you. 11 A Well, I'm sure she wasn't full-time down in Tampa. 12 But she was coming down for, you know, a week or two at a 13 time, you know, frequently. 14 Q Now, did there come a time when you went to a 15 meeting at Mr. Dandar's office, after you had delivered this 16 check for $250,000 in 1999, after August 26 of 1999? 17 A Yes, I did. 18 Q Do you recall, can you date that? 19 A Mmm, I think it was -- well, it was late fall. 20 Q Do you recall which office of Mr. Dandar's you 21 went to? 22 A It was the -- the new one that was across from 23 that pink hotel, I think, on West Kennedy. 24 Q For the sake of the Court who doesn't know the 25 transition, can you tell us, did you know that Mr. Dandar Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 149 1 had another office prior to that one? 2 A Yes. Prior -- prior to that, he was on Cypress 3 Street. And then -- and then this other office wasn't very 4 far away, it was -- I'm not sure whether it was a temporary 5 facility for him. I think he was going to ultimately move 6 out of it. But it was a fairly large office. And, you 7 know, that is where the meeting took place. 8 Q The temporary office being the one next to the 9 hotel? 10 A Across the street from a hotel. I think the hotel 11 was pink. There is also -- there were a lot of policemen 12 there because it's some sort of state police thing going on 13 in that office building, too, that he was in. 14 THE COURT: What was the date of this meeting 15 again? 16 THE WITNESS: It was sometime in the fall, late 17 fall, of '99. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q And can you tell us what happened at this meeting, 20 what you observed or heard? 21 A Yes. Well, there were five people there. Stacy 22 Brooks. Jesse Prince. Myself. Michael Garko -- Dr. Garko. 23 And Mr. Dandar. 24 And Mr. Dandar basically was going through his 25 reasoning as to why he wanted to add additional parties to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 150 1 this case. 2 Now, there had -- there had been other attempts 3 before to add parties, which failed, for a variety of 4 reasons, which -- some of which at the time I wasn't aware 5 of. 6 But I knew that there had been attempts to add 7 additional parties. And Miscavige was the person -- David 8 Miscavige was the person who was trying to be added in his 9 capacity as the head of the Sea Org. 10 Q Do you have any -- 11 A And so -- 12 Q Let me just interrupt you. Do you have any 13 knowledge -- do you have any knowledge as to why that was 14 happening? 15 A Well, you know, it was -- it was clearly a focus 16 on the Scientology aspects of the case. That's for sure. 17 There was nothing that could be more dramatic about this 18 case than having David Miscavige, who is the head of the 19 Church of Scientology, added as a defendant in it. 20 And this was something that Mr. Dandar was 21 extremely thrilled about the possibility of. I mean, he'd 22 been trying to do this for years, at least a couple years. 23 And when I encouraged him, you know, we needed to 24 focus on the Scientology aspects of the case, you know, this 25 was a natural thing to keep doing, I mean, despite the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 151 1 failures previously to do it. 2 And I believe that Judge Moody had sort of opened 3 the door for, you know, another way to add parties to the 4 case. And, you know, this was sort of the final attempt to 5 go through that door and add the parties. 6 Q Can I ask you a question, sir. In August of 1999, 7 which you just discussed, were you aware then, sir, that 8 there was an agreement that had been entered into between 9 the estate and the Church not to add parties? Were you 10 aware of that agreement then? 11 A At that time, and this is a surprise to everybody, 12 that I didn't know about this agreement. You know, I have 13 obviously since learned about the agreement. But at that 14 time I didn't know it. 15 The other people who were in this meeting were 16 very familiar with it because they had all attended hearings 17 that related to it, you know, these other attempts to add 18 parties. And that agreement -- you know, and I'm learning 19 this subsequent to this, that agreement was the stumbling 20 block. 21 Q When you say subsequent, so there is no confusion 22 in the record, are you -- 23 A Prior. Prior to that. 24 Q I know. Let me just ask my question. 25 A I see. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 152 1 Q We skip back and forth. We went to August. 2 Now we're back in the fall of '99. Are you saying 3 that is when you learned that there had been an agreement? 4 A No. It wasn't until -- well, at some stage 5 Mr. Dandar had sent to me a very large document, sometime in 6 '99, probably the second half of '99. I'm just not sure. 7 But it was, you know, about yeah thick (indicating). 8 Q You are indicating, for the record -- 9 A About six to seven inches, something like that. 10 And it was Scientology's motion -- or opposition motion to 11 one of the attempts to add parties. 12 And, you know, it wasn't my habit to pour over 13 these copies of these court filings, that were that big, 14 anyway. And, you know, I stuck it under a bed in my house. 15 And then the first time I really ever looked at 16 that was sometime in the winter of 2000, you know, like 17 January to March sometime. And I broke it apart. There 18 were like 22 or 25 tabs to it. I broke it apart. 19 And the first tab, I believe, was the -- was this 20 November 1997 agreement. And that was really the first time 21 that I actually knew about that agreement. 22 Q And do you recall, in substance, what that 23 agreement was about? 24 A Well, it was -- 25 THE COURT: What does that have to do with this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 153 1 hearing? 2 MR. FUGATE: It's just an agreement not to add 3 parties. It was the subject of the breach. Really, 4 other than the fact -- 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q You didn't know about the agreement, you paid the 7 money, and that is when you found out about the problems 8 when you were there in the fall? Is that essentially what 9 happened? 10 A Found out about the problems? 11 THE COURT: He's saying he did not know about 12 this agreement at the fall meeting. 13 THE WITNESS: Right. I didn't know about it at 14 the fall meeting. 15 THE COURT: He said that twice or three times. 16 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 17 THE WITNESS: This agreement -- what this 18 agreement basically was, was that Mr. Dandar 19 wouldn't attempt to add any additional parties, 20 corporate parties or their officers, in return for 21 the Church agreeing -- 22 THE COURT: For something I don't know is -- 23 now I have to listen to Mr. Minton tell us what this 24 agreement was that he wasn't even a party to. 25 MR. FUGATE: I'll get to the point I want to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 154 1 ask a question about, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Well, if it is whether or not he 3 knew about it in the fall, he's now said several 4 times that he didn't, and he didn't know about it 5 until 2000 when he got this thing out from under his 6 bed. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q The meeting -- let me focus your attention back to 9 the meeting in the fall. 10 A Yeah? 11 Q You described that as a meeting to talk about a 12 way to get around, I think you said, Judge Moody's order. 13 What essentially was talked about? 14 A No, I didn't say get around Judge Moody's order. 15 I said go through an opening that Judge Moody apparently 16 gave. 17 Q All right. 18 A And this was this whole concept of, you know, 19 adding Mr. Miscavige as head of the Sea Org. 20 So, you know, the problem of the Moody aspect or 21 the agreement wasn't discussed at this meeting. This was 22 already, you know, on track, so to speak. 23 So Mr. Dandar gave his views about this. 24 Dr. Garko gave his views. Mr. Dandar's views were extremely 25 favorable. He wanted to add the parties -- Mr. Miscavige at Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 155 1 that stage. He thought this would be extremely sensational, 2 lots of publicity for the case, and would clearly put 3 Scientology in a position -- and this goes back to this 4 whole theory of adding Miscavige -- to make people pay up 5 or -- pay up more money. 6 So Dr. Garko -- my recollection at the time was 7 that Dr. Garko was supportive of Mr. Dandar's position. But 8 I have subsequently learned that that wasn't the case. 9 Mr. Garko and Stacy Brooks reminded me of something that he 10 had said at that meeting which I now remember. So he wasn't 11 really in favor of it because there wasn't any evidence to 12 support it. 13 Jesse Prince was in favor of it. 14 Stacy Brooks was the most enthusiastic about it 15 because, you know, this has been a drum she has been beating 16 for a long time. 17 I wasn't -- I wasn't in favor of it for one 18 reason. 19 Q What reason was that? 20 A Mmm, because of how much more money this was going 21 to cost. I mean, this was a huge leap. But -- well, and 22 during the course of that meeting, I have got to tell you, I 23 was down at the far end of the conference table. This was a 24 very long conference table in the room. And it was a very 25 hot day. And I was at the end closest to Kennedy Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 156 1 Boulevard -- or West Kennedy, whatever the street is there, 2 the other end being the parking lot end. And that was where 3 there was an air-conditioning vent, as I recall. And the 4 room was very hot. 5 And, you know, I really only asked one question 6 during that whole course of this thing. And I asked 7 about -- "What about Ray Mithoff?" 8 And, you know, the consensus was, "Well, look, you 9 know, that is not a pressure point." 10 Well, that -- that was really the first time that 11 I recognized something about this whole case. And that was 12 that people weren't really interested -- or at least 13 Mr. Dandar and Jesse Prince, who were the ones principally 14 talking, because Prince knew Mithoff's situation, no one was 15 interested in getting to the truth of what happened here, 16 because if anybody in California would have been interested 17 in who might know about what happened with Lisa McPherson, 18 it would be the senior case supervisor. 19 So at the end of this meeting, despite having said 20 to Mr. Dandar that, "I don't think that this is a good idea 21 because of the money that will be involved in this," I went 22 up to him at the end of the meeting and I said to him, 23 "Look, whatever we decide to do on this thing, I will 24 support you 100 percent. You know, you need to talk about 25 this with Dell. And whatever we decide, I'll support you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 157 1 100 percent." 2 Q And did you mean financial support, as well? 3 A Well, that was the -- that was the -- the only 4 means of support that I was giving Mr. Dandar. 5 Q At the conclusion of the meeting, did you have any 6 conversation -- further conversation with Mr. Dandar about 7 the meeting? 8 A Yes. When we -- when we left the building, Stacy 9 Brooks and I were going down -- Jesse Prince was in the 10 elevator, as well. Mr. Dandar came down the elevator with 11 us. And before the elevator got -- it was only two floors, 12 so when it got to the first floor, before the door opened, 13 Mr. Dandar said that, "Look, this meeting never happened and 14 we can't talk about it." 15 Q And what did you say, if you recall? 16 A "Okay." 17 Q Did you have an understanding why you were being 18 told not to talk about the meeting? 19 A Well, I got the impression generally that this is 20 not something I should have been involved in. 21 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: You may. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q And you mentioned that Mr. Dandar had sent you a 25 six- or seven-inch packet of pleadings. How long before Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 158 1 that package -- or had you ever been getting packages of 2 pleadings in the case from Mr. Dandar before that? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did you continue to get them after that fall 5 meeting? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Wherever it was? 8 A Well, in fact, I got them somewhat more after that 9 fall meeting because of the LMT being down there. And, you 10 know, whether he would send them over to the LMT, or whether 11 Jesse would bring them back, or Stacy would bring them back, 12 you know, there were more of them at that stage. 13 Q And did -- were there times when Mr. Dandar would 14 discuss things that -- that were confidential in the case 15 with you, do you recall? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. FUGATE: May I approach? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MR. FUGATE: This will be 98. 20 THE COURT: You may have the same permission I 21 gave Mr. Lirot. As long as you have papers in your 22 hand, feel free. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, it's a custom with me. 24 THE COURT: I know it is. And that is fine, 25 too. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 159 1 MR. FUGATE: I remember one time -- 2 THE COURT: If you don't remember, it will be 3 all right. 4 MR. FUGATE: All right. This is 98, Judge. 5 I'll give you a courtesy copy. I'll give this to 6 the witness. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Would you take a look at this posting and see if 9 you can identify the posting. 10 MR. DANDAR: What exhibit number? 11 MR. FUGATE: 98. I'm sorry. 12 A Yes. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Is this a posting? 15 A That -- 16 Q I'm sorry? 17 A That is a posting I made to that 18 alt.religion.scientology group. 19 THE COURT: I'm sure I'm just missing this, but 20 where is it you are posting this here? Bobbarn -- 21 is that you, too? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, that was another address, 23 your Honor. 24 THE COURT: So any postings I see in here that 25 has Bobbarn whatever the rest of this is, that would Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 160 1 be you, as well? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I see you have Robertsminton, too. 4 So you have two posting -- addresses, whatever you 5 call it? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: I got it. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Do you see a portion highlighted in yellow there? 10 A Yes. I do. 11 MR. FUGATE: First of all, may I move this into 12 evidence as Defendant's Exhibit Number 98? 13 MR. DANDAR: No objection. 14 THE COURT: It will be received. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Could you read the yellow portion, sir, the 17 highlighted portion? 18 A "After the insulting settlement proposals and 19 multimedia cryathon presented to Lisa's family and 20 Mr. Dandar." 21 Q Were you made privy to any information about a 22 settlement proceeding? 23 A Yes. Mr. Dandar told me about this discussion 24 that took place in this -- I think it was in July sometime 25 of '98. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 161 1 Q And did you understand that to be a mediation? 2 A I just understood it as a settlement conference. 3 I didn't -- the word "mediation," at least to my memory, 4 didn't come up. 5 Q Did you know that it was confidential? Or did you 6 have any information that it was a confidential meeting? At 7 that time, I should ask. 8 A Yeah. Yeah. It was not something to be 9 broadcast. 10 Q And several months later, you put an Internet 11 posting out about it, though? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Now, did you ever receive copies of depositions 14 from Mr. Dandar that related to the wrongful death case? 15 A Yes. I did. 16 Q In case I didn't make myself clear, the settlement 17 offer, did you understand that to be in the wrongful death 18 case? 19 A Yes. It was. 20 Q Did you ever receive any depositions from 21 Mr. Dandar that you understood to be taken in the wrongful 22 death case? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you have any understanding, when you were 25 receiving -- well, can you tell us when, if you recall, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 162 1 time-wise? 2 A Oh, well, I got several. It would have -- I 3 wasn't really able to look to see what I might have had 4 because the special master had all those. 5 Q You mean these were documents at the LMT -- 6 A These were documents I either received at the 7 LMT -- I'm certain I received at least one or two hard copy 8 documents in New Hampshire. And then depositions, that is. 9 And at least one or two E-Mails from Mr. Dandar with 10 depositions -- of depositions. 11 Q You mean like an ASCII disk, E-Mail of the 12 deposition? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Were you told they were confidential depositions 15 and not to distribute them? 16 A You know, I don't think I was. I mean, I 17 remember -- because it was fairly recent, the last one that 18 was E-mailed to me, it was, "Don't say you got this from 19 me," he said, "and don't post it on the Internet, and also 20 don't say you got it from me." 21 Q Do you remember which deposition it was, as you 22 sit here? 23 A It was a deposition of Teresa Summers. 24 Q Did you post it on the Internet? 25 A No, I didn't. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 163 1 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: You may. 3 MR. FUGATE: May I -- 4 THE COURT: Just so I know, what are you 5 talking about, disks? The court reporter, do they 6 give you-all disks of something, or depositions? 7 MR. FUGATE: It just went over my head. But as 8 I understand it, there are disks, like a floppy 9 disk, that you can get delivered with a transcript 10 of the deposition which will have the deposition on 11 it and, therefore, can be E-mailed. Am I -- 12 MR. MOXON: Right. 13 THE COURT: The court reporter gives those to 14 folks if they ask for them or pay for them? 15 MR. FUGATE: When they pay for the 16 transcription, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. FUGATE: It's a way you can input it into a 19 computerized system for searches and what have you. 20 I just expended all my knowledge. 21 THE COURT: Well, you had more than I. 22 MR. FUGATE: This is 99. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q This is something I think you may remember, the 25 Brenda Hubert knowledge report. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 164 1 Did you receive, sir -- first of all let me ask 2 you, can you identify the posting I handed you as 3 Defendant's Exhibit 99? 4 A Yes. This is an Internet posting that I made to 5 alt.religion.scientology. 6 Q And did you receive what you understood to be a 7 knowledge report of Brenda Hubert? 8 A Yes, I did. 9 Q And can you tell us how you came to receive that? 10 A Mmm, I received it from Mr. Dandar at his office 11 on -- sometime in -- not exactly on, but early 1999. 12 Q And were you given any instructions when you 13 received it? 14 A It was, "Don't say you got this from me. And 15 don't put it on the Internet." 16 Q Did you put it on the Internet? 17 A About a year later, yes. 18 Q And did you -- were you ever asked as to where you 19 got it by anyone? 20 A Yes. In a deposition. In my -- yeah, in a 21 deposition, I was asked if I got it from Mr. Dandar. And -- 22 Q What did you answer? 23 A I said no. 24 Q What did you say in that deposition? 25 A I said that I got it in an envelope from somebody, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 165 1 you know, postmarked Florida, anonymously. 2 Q Was that true and accurate testimony at that time? 3 A It wasn't. And it was one of the items that I 4 covered in my recantation affidavit. I believe it was. 5 Q Did you receive E-Mails from -- 6 THE COURT: Of all this, this is the one thing 7 I asked for. There was a name for it. 8 MR. FUGATE: It was a knowledge report. 9 THE COURT: A knowledge report? Okay. 10 MR. FUGATE: Of Brenda Hubert, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q And, in any event, sometime later, I think you 14 said about a year later, you posted the contents of it on 15 the Internet? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And what was the purpose of posting a document 18 that had been received in the wrongful death case on the 19 Internet by you? 20 A Well, this was basically to try to put pressure on 21 Brenda Hubert to come forward with what we expected was 22 different information than what had been coming out so far 23 from the Scientology side in the wrongful death case. 24 Q Would you say to put pressure on her? What did 25 you mean by that -- or what do you mean by that now? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 166 1 A Well, you know, to make her feel bad about what 2 had happened with Lisa. And, you know, try to put her in a 3 position -- or, you know, just put pressure on her to come 4 forward and tell the truth, because, you know, we didn't 5 think she was telling the truth about all of the things that 6 happened with Lisa McPherson. 7 THE COURT: If I might just ask this witness, 8 what was it that gave you occasion to believe that 9 Brenda, whoever she was, Hubert -- 10 THE WITNESS: Hubert. 11 THE COURT: -- from the Church of Scientology 12 was reading this fairly offensive website? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, it was just a 14 chance that somebody else might read it who might 15 have gotten it to her. 16 And, you know, Mr. Dandar thought this woman 17 definitely had more information than she was 18 providing. 19 THE COURT: But nothing beyond a hope or 20 some -- maybe somehow it would wind its way there? 21 THE WITNESS: Right. There wasn't any, you 22 know, targeted effort to get it to her. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q You knew that Brenda Hubert was a witness in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 167 1 case for the Church of Scientology. Correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you, in fact, phone Brenda Hubert? 4 A You know, I might have. I might have. I -- I 5 have a recollection of it. Yeah, I believe I did. 6 Q Do you remember the purpose of that telephone call 7 to Brenda Hubert? 8 A Well, if she hadn't had it brought to her 9 attention before this thing was posted on the Internet, I 10 was trying to make sure that she got it brought to her 11 attention. 12 Q Now, besides the E-mailing of depositions in the 13 case and the postings that we've talked about, did you 14 receive E-Mails from Mr. Dandar about the case throughout 15 this period of time, '98, '99, 2000, 2001? 16 A Mr. Dandar didn't tend to write much -- or put 17 much in writing about the case. He would send me E-Mails 18 concerning the case. But they were generally requests for 19 money for the case. 20 Q And I think I asked you this before. But would 21 they go to -- which computers of yours would they go to? 22 The computer at the LMT? The home? The laptop? 23 A Well, they would go potentially to all of them 24 because, you know, if I downloaded in New Hampshire, you 25 know, I -- at that stage, I was keeping my mail on the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 168 1 server. I think I have got it set up so that after two 2 retrievals, it deletes it from the server. 3 But it is on the two computers I would retrieve it 4 from. So you get it on one computer, and then it 5 automatically, when you retrieve it from your laptop, it 6 takes it off the server that holds your E-mail, the Internet 7 service provider you have, from their server. So I could 8 have gotten it on any or all of them. 9 Q Are you saying it was sent to any or all addresses 10 so you can get it wherever you were, if I understand what 11 you were saying? 12 A That is not exactly right. But Mr. Dandar also 13 did send them to multiple addresses of mine. 14 Q Let's get exactly what happened with the E-Mails, 15 the best you recall. 16 A Okay. Well, this goes back to the question as to 17 where I would have got them, which computers I would have 18 got them on. 19 As I said, I could have got them on all three 20 computers, for example. But when Mr. Dandar would send me 21 one of these E-Mails, he would address it to Bob@Minton.org, 22 or Bobminton@Lisatrust.net, then a third one which was wrong 23 and he kept sending it to this wrong address, but it didn't 24 matter because I got it at one of the other two. 25 Q Did you get a -- phone calls from Mr. Dandar to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 169 1 discuss the case or in which you discussed the case? 2 A Yes. There were phone calls in which we discussed 3 the case. 4 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm going to break off at 5 that point because I'll go back once we get the 6 phone bill issue -- I'll make a note to myself here. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment? 9 THE COURT: You may. 10 MR. FUGATE: Take a moment, Judge. I have to 11 flip-flop what I was doing here. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q If you go back to Defendant's Exhibit 81, if that 14 is still up there, which I think is the LMT list of board 15 members, advisory members. 16 A Oh, yes. It is probably on the bottom here. Yes. 17 Q As part of your being "Public Enemy Number 1" of 18 Scientology, as you said, did you have -- or did you cause 19 other people to come to Florida to assist in the litigation 20 in any way? By that, I mean to assist in the litigation. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And can you tell us what you -- how you -- who you 23 brought in and how you accomplished that. 24 A Dan Leipold and Ford Greene. 25 Q What did Dan Leipold -- when I say litigation, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 170 1 mean the wrongful death case. 2 A Well, there were -- you know, Leipold, which I 3 already testified about, I think your Honor heard all you 4 need to hear about my relationship with him -- but, you 5 know, he was somewhat of -- he was more experienced in the 6 Scientology litigation arena than Mr. Dandar. 7 And there came a time, and I think it was in 2000, 8 summer of 2000, that Mr. Dandar needed help with respect to 9 two issues -- 10 Q Do you recall what the issues were? 11 A -- in this case. 12 Yeah. One was this religiosity. And I think 13 there has been long hearings on that. 14 And the second one, which I'm not sure whether it 15 has ever really come to play in this case, was on the alter 16 ego issue. 17 Ford Greene was an attorney who had expertise in 18 the first amendment issues and religiosity angle. 19 And Leipold was anxious to get involved in this 20 case in some way. And, you know, I was -- I was pushing 21 Mr. Dandar to get Dan Leipold and Ford Greene involved in 22 this case because of their expertise, you know, on the 23 anti-Scientology type litigation. 24 So they came down here and they had meetings with 25 Mr. Dandar concerning these issues. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 171 1 Q Had you gotten any requests for assistance? 2 A What do you mean, requests for assistance? 3 Q Had you been in communication with Mr. Dandar 4 about the two issues that you talked about? 5 A No. I don't think he requested anything of me 6 about that. No. 7 Q So -- 8 A But Leipold wanted to get involved in this case. 9 Leipold knew what the issues were in this case. And he was 10 happy to get involved. I mean, he thought it was a good 11 case. I think, you know, he was looking to make some money 12 out of it, to actually get some fees out of it or something. 13 And, really, I think where the whole breakdown 14 happened between Mr. Dandar and Leipold and Greene was over 15 Mr. Dandar's reluctance to give up part of his contingency 16 fee. 17 In fact, what happened, Mr. Leipold, because of 18 this reluctance on Mr. Dandar's part, he said, "Look, I'm 19 not going to work on this thing unless you're going to pay 20 me some hourly fees." 21 I said, "Well, what's it going to cost?" 22 So he eventually sent me a budget, which he also 23 sent to Mr. Dandar, concerning how much it would cost for 24 him to work on this, you know, without any contingency 25 arrangement, without having any benefit of participating in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 172 1 Mr. Dandar's contingency arrangement. 2 Q Did you, in fact, make any payments to Mr. Leipold 3 for assistance in the case? 4 A Well, through the moneys I loaned to the estate, 5 because he did do work -- he and Mr. Greene both did work on 6 the case. And, you know, they were paid. But not directly 7 by me but, you know, through the moneys that were loaned to 8 the estate. 9 Q But, in any event, to your understanding, they 10 couldn't get into the contingency arrangement, so did they 11 do anything else in the case? 12 A Mmm, well, yes. I mean, you know, Ford Greene did 13 prepare this whole motion or argument on the religiosity 14 issue. 15 The reason Mr. Leipold was needed with Ford Greene 16 involved, because Ford Greene was somebody who was a little 17 erratic and needed somebody to shepherd him on his work. 18 And he was not somebody who Mr. Dandar or Mr. Leipold 19 thought could be left on his own to do the work, that he 20 needed somebody to sort of ride herd on him. 21 There were other problems that developed between 22 Mr. Dandar, Leipold and Ford Greene that sort of added to 23 their inability to get together. 24 Q Did you bring in -- if you'll look on the -- I 25 have it here -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 173 1 A If I could just add one other thing there 2 concerning this. 3 Back in January of 1998, and I know that is a big 4 jump back, but the law firm in Boston that was representing 5 me in the first deposition that I ever had in this case was 6 Hale & Dorr. Steve Jonas, who was my attorney who 7 represented me on, you know, non-litigation matters up to 8 that point, you know, he said to me at that time -- 9 MR. HOWIE: Objection on the grounds of 10 attorney-client privilege. 11 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Hearsay and relevance. 12 THE COURT: Well, the privilege is his. So is 13 the waiver. But it is hearsay. 14 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay. 15 THE COURT: I'll sustain it. 16 MR. FUGATE: I'll ask my question, Judge. 17 A Well -- 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q I think there was an objection and you should 20 abide by your attorney's advice. 21 A Okay. 22 Q My question is going to be, were you aware of a 23 witness being utilized in the wrongful death case by the 24 name of Gerry Armstrong? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 174 1 Q Is Gerry Armstrong also an individual that you had 2 provided funds to? 3 A Yes, he is. 4 Q Is that the same Gerry Armstrong we see on the 5 advisory committee? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And did you bring Mr. Armstrong to Florida to 8 participate in the wrongful death case? 9 A Well, you know, the money that -- that I was 10 loaning to the estate got him here. I mean, I didn't 11 specifically pay him to come here directly. But definitely 12 he was -- well, he had either used moneys that I had given 13 him before to come here, or he used moneys that Mr. Dandar 14 received, you know, on behalf of the estate and paid him to 15 come here. 16 Q And prior to his coming here, was he, Gerry 17 Armstrong, someone you had known and dealt with in the past? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And was he someone that you knew to be involved in 20 anti-Scientology litigation/criticism? 21 A Very much so. 22 Q And were there any restrictions on his appearing 23 as a witness, if you know, in a case? 24 A Yes. There were. 25 Q And what were those restrictions, if you know? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 175 1 A Well, he entered into a settlement agreement with 2 the Church of Scientology -- 3 THE COURT: I'm sure this is of some interest 4 to me, but it escapes me, quite frankly. Maybe 5 because it is late on Friday afternoon, but what do 6 I care what Gerry Armstrong did out in a California 7 court and how he breached it and now he escaped the 8 country and he has all kinds of debts he owes? 9 The deal is that is not what this case is about 10 right here. 11 MR. FUGATE: I agree with you, Judge. The 12 point I was -- 13 THE COURT: How nice. 14 MR. FUGATE: Well, you know, it is late and I 15 think it is time to agree on something. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Could he come and be a witness in the wrongful 18 death case, to your knowledge? 19 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Legal conclusion. 20 Outside of the scope of the affidavits, motions. 21 THE COURT: Absolutely. Sustained on any basis 22 that you can come up with. 23 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 24 THE COURT: I think I already told you, I don't 25 care about it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 176 1 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving on then, Judge. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q How about -- 4 MR. DANDAR: It's Friday. 5 MR. FUGATE: It is Friday. Thank goodness. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q How about Mr. Ward? Did you arrange for him to 8 come here and, if you did, what did he do? 9 MR. DANDAR: Same objection, outside of the 10 scope of all their motions. 11 THE COURT: I mean, maybe you can help to tell 12 me what this has to do with. It's lost on me. 13 MR. FUGATE: All right. Let me try it this 14 way. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Were there any discussions with Mr. Dandar about 17 the formation of the LMT? I know I'm jumping ahead here, 18 but -- and purposes that you both discussed of utilizing the 19 LMT for? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And could you tell us what you recall of those 22 discussions? 23 A Well, the LMT was going to be, you know, sort of 24 the leading anti-Scientology group. And it was going to be 25 based here in Florida, in Clearwater. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 177 1 Q Why did it have to be based in Clearwater? 2 A Well, it would be more in Scientology's face that 3 way. That, you know, this -- this is where their spiritual 4 headquarters is located. And if you were within the same -- 5 you know, Clearwater being a very small town, you would 6 obviously have lots of interactions with Scientology. 7 Q In-your-face interactions? 8 A Yes. And this would generate lots of media, you 9 know. It would also -- you know, the organization was also 10 very clearly set up to help people who, you know, had 11 problems of some sort with Scientology -- 12 Q Was -- 13 A -- you know. 14 Q Was there any discussion about causing media 15 attention? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And can you tell us about that? 18 THE COURT: All I care about is any discussions 19 he had with Mr. Dandar. 20 MR. FUGATE: I should -- 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: This idea of being in Scientology's 23 face, putting the group here, was your idea, wasn't 24 it? 25 THE WITNESS: It was something that was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 178 1 discussed with Mr. Dandar, too. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, let me ask you -- 4 A It was my -- it was my idea to set up this group, 5 you know, this discussing this matter, you know, going back 6 even to the summer of -- 7 MR. FUGATE: I think the Judge is asking you to 8 confine discussions to you and Mr. Dandar. 9 A That is what I was going to do here. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q I'm sorry? 12 A I'm sorry. Even going back to the summer of 1999, 13 this was discussed. You know, this was -- you know, the 14 whole concept of putting this organization or creating this 15 organization was an idea that -- that the three sisters were 16 talking about. 17 Q When you say the three sisters -- 18 A I mean Dell Liebreich, Ann Carlson and Lee 19 Skelton. And so even back in the summer of '99, we were 20 discussing -- I mean, Mr. Dandar and I were discussing the 21 creation of this group. 22 You know, there was -- there was -- Stacy Brooks 23 was somebody who was saying that she would prefer to see the 24 thing located in -- located in Washington. And Mr. Dandar 25 and I were both anxious to have it in Florida. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 179 1 Q And were there discussions about why you wanted to 2 have it in Florida, between you and Mr. Dandar? 3 A Yes. You know -- 4 Q And can you tell us what was discussed as to why 5 it needed to be in Florida? 6 A Well, this was -- this was where the action was. 7 This was where this case was. You know, this organization 8 was going to be named after the lady who this case was all 9 about. 10 Q Lisa McPherson? 11 A Lisa McPherson. Yes. 12 Q Whose idea was it to use her name for this 13 organization? 14 A Mr. Dandar's. 15 Q Did you have to get authorization -- did you, sir, 16 have to get authorization to use Lisa McPherson's name? 17 A Well, I said to him, you know, "I think we should 18 have some authorization to use this name." 19 Q Did you get authorization to use the name? 20 A He said that he talked to Dell, and Dell said it 21 was perfectly acceptable to her. 22 Q And did you ever have a conversation with Dell 23 Liebreich yourself where she authorized that use to you? 24 A I don't believe I did. 25 Q Did she ever acknowledge that she had authorized Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 180 1 it, to you? 2 A Mmm, I don't think so. 3 Q I see her name on the board of directors. How did 4 she get on the board of directors? 5 A Mr. Dandar thought it would be a good idea for her 6 to be on the board, as well as one of the other family 7 members. I remember it was another -- a younger generation 8 family member that Mr. Dandar thought would be appropriate, 9 so there would be a continuity from the family's 10 perspective, because the three -- the three sisters are 11 fairly elderly, you know, when they passed away, that there 12 would still be a younger generation relative of Lisa 13 McPherson connected with the organization. 14 THE COURT: Who might that be? I just don't 15 know. 16 THE WITNESS: Her name is Kim Krenek. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Is she listed on the exhibit, one name up from 19 Dell Liebreich? 20 A Yes, she is. 21 THE COURT: Thanks. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Now, could you -- let me ask you this. Were there 24 discussions about picketing that took place between you and 25 Mr. Dandar? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 181 1 A Mmm, yes. 2 Q And can you tell us about those discussions? 3 A Well, he -- 4 THE COURT: Are we going to go into picketing 5 now, a different area? 6 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Why don't we stop. It is 25 after, 8 I think. 9 MR. FUGATE: Fine with me, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Right there. We'll pick it up on 11 picketing. 12 MR. FUGATE: Pick up at picketing. 13 THE COURT: We'll be in recess until Tuesday. 14 Monday I have to be in Tallahassee. So I'll see you 15 all nine o'clock on Tuesday. 16 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 17 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 182 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 19th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500