(Posted juni 17, 2000 in nl.scientology} Hierna het transcript van een van de 'Peter Mante tape's' (in tweeen gepost). Het gaat om de tekst die zeer vlug, vlak na het verhoor, moest worden vervaardigd voor OSA INT(ernationaal) door OSA AMS (Office of Special Affairs, Scientology's eigen geheime dienst, afdeling Amsterdam). De kwaliteit van de tape's was niet best, en er was haast bij, reden waarom nog al wat '....' (puntjes) in de tekst voorkomen. Mante was in dienst van de Amerikaanse ambassade in de tijd dat dit speelde. Hij deed zich voor als een criticus van Scientology, infiltreerde de "anti- Scientology beweging", kwam vervolgens op het idee om Scientology (wellicht zogenaamd) een miljoen afhandig te maken voor persoonlijk gewin, en ging op z'n snuit toen Karin Spaink en Felipe Rodriques (ex-direkteur xs4all) daar niets voor voelden. Scientology misbruikt deze kwestie sindsdien (1996) door leugens te verspreiden (bijna wekelijks in nl.scientology) over Karin Spaink, Felipe Rodriquez (ex-direkteur XS4ALL) en anderen. Op Mante rust de verdenking dat hij, vanaf het begin, handelde in overleg met Scientology en Dianetics. Jeta Eggers -------------------------------------------------------- {End 1995} [Allan Cartwright, Scientology:] With Levin? [Peter Mante:] Yes Yes, so she wrote, she started a written course ...........inaudible... That's basically it. I have a number of books at home, so lately started reading... Where did you buy that books? I bought books in ........ I also still have Dianetics from mid seventies... But again I mean they were so sure.... basically I walked in, that time, and there were a lot of things happening.... I mean..... Right And that's why actually I was a kind of surprised because I had been telling my mother at that time, try Scientology, do other approach...this and that... hm-hm.. And than I was getting my information in from the Inter- net....so, shit....what did I do?... And the other thing is...your own background? hm-hm So you mentioned you were born in Holland, right? I was born in Holland. But the first 12 and a half years I was in Holland, than I went to Libia for about 13 to 14 years. Than in Luxembourg, than I've been in the States, I have been in Indonesia, a kind of all over the place. And then you met your wife in the States? No, in Indonesia. Oh, that's right, you mentioned...right. And that's the thing with the..... why I got involved in the whole hacking ....(inaudible) Oh. I had a kind of problems with that because I would get....(in-audible) I would make something else, I would get running. Because my wife got rid of her American passport when she was in Indonesia, there was this situation that ..(?) me. She saw a tank standing around me, with me....she got real angry. Passport and this and that.. I mean, she was very much into the American Indian movement. And than she was in Indonesia, without passport. Could hardly go to the Embassey and say, well, hey I kind of burned my passport. But in these countries it's quite easy to get an Indonesian passport. Because what you do, you dig up two people who are old enough, you give them.. peanuts (?) yeah, yeah! Your own daughter, you're say for... So you got the passport that way? She got an Indonesian passport, and now she has a Dutch pas sport on the base of the fact that she married me, I mean... I got it. So that was a big problem actually that we were facing. I mean her identity was not correct...so all there were to gain an American passport was by......er...helping out, lets put it this way. Right. I got it....So basically you are a Dutch citizen than? That's correct. And when did you (inaudible)...? '85. yes, that was 10 years. In '95. And now the question on hacked the (?). You mention one of your ....one of the E-mail communications, about a trick, something with a trick..... That's correct. Was that about this particular cycle? Eh, yes, that's correct. Well, what was the trick.....ehm...b-eing able to do some funny things. I got it. The point is, when I joined this whole thing and hacked it, there was quite a lot of anticipation because of...because of the past, because of the radicalism in the discussions with Ron de Later (?) and so on. So, when I met Gongrijp.... We are gonna do something now. Not wildy stuff...(inaudible) As you and him talked? That's right. And Alex (?).. this is good for labours. But lets keep up the good work, you know... Right, I got it. And Karin was quite a kind of impressed by what Gongrijp told about what I would be up to. That who would be up to? .....(?) could be up to. I mean, black operations..... Right. ......knew at that time I mean I was a hacker.....From way back. '92 is way back, I mean... (inaudible) Now, just so we have this on tape: what was the reason why you er..... First it started actually with the wrong school, visions, book, which was a kind of shocking. Confirmed the man indeed has serious mental problems.....Started reading myself, pick ing up the books again. Was having doubts, but than I called Karel Jeelof. Set an appointment, I said, let's try to talk. I called him at home. I found his telephone number in the telephone book. And he was willing enough to come. He said: We'll meet. I didn't expect him to do that. I mean: I was the kind of the worsed around. We had a talk for seven hours, in which I told him I felt I am an SP. He told me I'm not. To say, press some buttons, let's put it this way. And I saw there somebody, I mean, who was not a robot. Not a poor exploited person who has no own mind anymore. I mean: Karel does have an own mind. I was already in doubt, I mean, at that time, I mean, I called him because I was in doubt. Walking out of there....er... I was sure that I was wrong. And that I had problems myself. And you also mentioned one of the things that had surprised you, what was also a factor in the decision was.... That's right. After you were suspended and lost your job there was no harrasment or... That's correct. That's correct. I thought you would mention that actually. Because I did expect it. Out of these (?).. I expected first that my wife's card would be played. That would have been so easy. If you would have logged in at our home at the time with a bunch of flowers....(?) we'd both be cheated by the same bastard. Er...well, you could have scored (?) with that. Could have brought up the whole Jennifer thing,...made. ...er...she's more strong. I had expected to run into mean type of PI.(?) Well, these things didn't happen to me. As a matter of fact, I'm the only one who started dead agenting..my own buddy, actually. Right, also I noticed in some of the E-mails you mentioned that there was two beatings that you had? That's correct yes. Is there anything that indicated at all that they were Scientology connected? I thought at the time, because, these beatings were a bit strange. They were not normal...well, persons from the hood. They were well dressed actually.....which made me very suspicious.... Apart from that, was there anything that indicated...? No, that was not Scientology. But the only thing is that in the.....in the mind sat at that time...I said okay,...well...shit....okay....er....that must have been an engram playing the hooks on me, because the last beating was quite professional. What happened was close to my house....I got beaten with .... (?) Just winding the muscles so that you release your back. No excess, but you would expect from a normal (...inaudible)...I mean just hit somebody over the head and that's it. This was done real well, I mean: crack...no more damage was neccesary.... And they stole the briefcase? They stole my briefcase, but I got that briefcase back, because I had this umbrella, and I hit the guy in the neck, these people, so he dropped the briefcase again.... And then ran or something..? And then ran. Yes there was a thousand guilders which was gone from my salary, I mean, but the thing is.... the idea was... or what I thought at the time is that I had a lot of lists with me, some things from the lawyer, so... they wanted to gather the information. That's what I thought, but I'm absolutely convinced it's not. I remember one time you also in one of the conversations we had last year on the (?) you had said you knew who was really behind this? Yes. What do you mean by that? Well, what I meant by that was actually a group, er..(inaudible) So a group of people who wanted to do Scientology. But that's not what it really meant though? No Okay. That's what you're trying to communicate? That's correct. It was a kind of hooking in on the whole empale trafium (????) Scientolgy played a role in getting it in (??????? inaudible). So it was a kind of bill out of existing field. Because indeed there are people after Scientology. You know....where... Right. But when you said really behind it, what you were just saying was... PM Well actually building all....a theory.... AC Right PM Cognation of the intelligence people and the shrinks. NL That's part of this whole plan, meeting, set up PM That's correct, that's correct AC Just to pull us in to this. PM That's correct......Not a good thing to do, but.... AC One time you also mentioned that you wouldn't take the materials off unless.......doing some sort of (unaudible)...and than you contacted us back again and said that wasn't a (?) Why did you do that? PM Well the thing is, because the financial thing in that whole setup were those ......er......relating to how the operations against you were working. So the idea of the thing of the setup. So than I said well the Affidavit has nothing to do with it. So there's no (??) there. AC Why would you change the story? What has changed the story? Did you talk to somebody about it? PM Yes, I mean the thing is that I wanted to stick to these super interesting documents. AC The forged documents? PM That's correct. AC Did you feel that you may have said something wrong or something at this or that point? .....I mean when you were asking...you wanted money to take the materials off? PM No I didn't mean any further (?) AC But you've said that though, at one point. PM Yes, I think in the beginning I've said something like that. AC Right, you said there was a pa... PM That was a part of a package deal. AC Right, right. AC But than you contacted us back again and you said it wasn't. PM No, correct. AC I'm just trying to understand why that was the case. PM Well, the thing is, I mean, I didn't want to pull the whole Fishman thing into the setup idea. Because you get, I mean you get a wrong connection with that. AC Was EFF involved in this at all? PM Yes in the sense....er .....again in the raid. In the attack against freedom of information on the Internet. AC Was there anybody from EFF contacted? PM Well, ...(?) Felipe has contacted with EFF. AC You don't know? PM Well, I don't know, I mean, because Felipe has been working on setting a similar organization up here in Holland. As an outflow of the hacktic thing. AC Is there an EFF type of organization here? PM At the moment not. Maybe in the sense in NLIP... AC Oh, NLIP, that's right PM There was this thing about setting up a group of backers, financially, but that actually never got anywhere, I mean.... AC Want to set an EFF type of group? PM Well, no specifical this. So to set...well you have this thing Vrienden van K. (Friends of K), which is a support fund for Spaink. Which is (?).... too much ....(?) AC What is it called? PM Vrienden van K. AC What is Vrienden van K? PM Vrienden van, Friends of Karin, sorry. AC Okay, good. (Laughter) PM But there was talking to have a strong battle group having KPN in it, having Herschbergen (?) in it, who is actually a computer law professor. AC Oh, this foundation. Was that ever set up, this foundation? PM No I mean, that had never worked out. AC Right. I got it. Here is one where we went over earlier, which was: setting up a Euro Fact Net. PM Yes AC Who was that discussed with? PM That was discussed with (? inaudible).....I never can getting a name back. ...From Germany he has this huge homepage dealing with several cults. He's putting up a bit like CAN. AC Were there any talks with the people from US Fact Net about this? PM Yes, the idea was to transmit it to them though, as an idea to organise it in Europe CA Who transmitted that? PM That was done by Karin and.....because what I first did was, well, I first brought up the idea in (....?...) part of a homepage where we get the possibilities....that was a kind of picked up as a possibility. AC When was that? PM That was .......must have been in January, February. AC Okay, I got it. It never got set up? PM That never got set up. No there were a couple of problems in Europe in setting up something like that, I mean, different languages... AC Who...Was Bob Penney (?) involved in these discussions or Lerma? PM Penney yes. AC Penney was. Early in the ....set up of the European FactNet PM Yes. Yes....................Giving that there are a lot of pushes in Europe. Germany Space Gang (?) was running at that time. That was before France. AC Did Penney and Lerma....When was the last time you heard from Penney and Lerma? PM That was in February, January. January February. AC And what were those discussions about? PM That was on that subject. I mean, see how to build a front, how to destroy in Europe. AC Did those discussions also involve the materials? PM Yes. AC The OT materials? PM Yes. AC What was discussed about the OT materials? PM Who actually the same try to do to organize all European level, if possible. AC To get more sites in European level, not just in Holland? PM That's correct. AC Never ....(?) Penney (?) PM (Inaudible) ...expired people brought one site or somethin in Germany....there were some ideas about Luxembourgh...and.....you know. Tried to get on the Christian site, using OT VIII. AC Christian? Oh right, okay.....That was OT VIII, Christian. PM Of course a bit of (?) .... AC When was the last time you had contact with Erlich? PM ...Same context.....(?) AC On setting up a Fact Net? PM Yes. Because it was an idea which arose and than...yeah....Got a kind of attracted. But difficult to realize. AC Right. And what about the....the last time you talked with Erlich about getting Scamdizat or any materials? PM That was before the....before the setup. That was about September.... AC September-October? PM Yes. AC Okay. PM That was in the organizing phase, I mean, the ..(?)..hole, what else can we do with it? AC Right. There was also the invention (?) one posting that Jennifer had tape that would cause you serious problems. Where was that about. PM Well,this is an embarrasing thing. But okay. Er...Jennifer was fired from the Embassey at a certain point because she filed/fowled (?) a document. There was a document from a guy called Jensen (?) who was the information management officer. On that docu...I haven't seen the document, but she told me there were things about weapon transactions. Now there are only two departments of the Embassey which can occupy itself with that, it's the Defense Attache Office and the Office of Defense Co-operation. He belonged to neither of those. She brought that document back, started being nosey about it....and short after that she was out. Her firing was not justified. I mean, not on the basis of what was said. She was fired because she was incompetent. She was fired because she would steal time. I mean come in as late as possible stay as long as possible for less....well,this is all not true. She was very stipt, er...punctual, sorry. So she got fired. So she was convinced that she got fired because she saw too much, and that they framed her and.....er so she had this quarrel with the Embassey.............. AC That's what basically happened with her? PM That's correct. AC What was the tape..... PM Well that's ......(?)... here. A wrongification is it. Secretly. AC Okay PM We're drawing around with conspiracy theories...........It was a second dynamic thing, and I spoke something through a tape. Actually it was a game...... AC And you didn't....Did you know you were taping it? PM Yes, but you know, she would destroy the tape afterwards. I mean just....er...(?) She never threw it away. AC And than she..... PM ...started to blackmail AC....used it against you. I got it. Okay. PM There were some names on.... AC Concering this stuff in the Embassey? PM That's correct. That's correct. AC You had thoughts about that? PM That's correct. That's correct. AC After she talked to you about this (inaudible).... PM That's correct PM She pretty much had a hold on me.........That is one of the less bright things.....but... I don't know what I was with Jennifer......I don't know how I came...... AC It's a strange lady. PM Yeah. She is. But still, I mean, she had something over her. AC Yes. Right. The other thing you mentioned in one of the (?) conversations on October 26 you got...Rodriguez was just a tool. What did you mean by that? PM Well, that he was doing it for others. He was doing it.... in that time, and also part of the setup idea....that he was by the conspiracy. AC The conspiracy being.... PM ...Er...where the documents would come from. AC Ah, Okay, you told me, now you're back to the Embassey situation? PM That's correct. AC To try and tell us..... PM That's correct. AC And the actual truth was...? PM There he was running his own show. AC Running his own show.... PM Running his own PR show basically. AC Right. And than he was being used by....the US people.. PM Right AC In actual fact. I mean you guys were being used by the US people? PM Yes in a way. In a way it's correct. Only that I was at that time pointing at something else, something more mysterious. AC Right. When you told me you... PM That's right. AC I got it. PM The PCDE (?) I ask would rather than the CIA (??????) AC Right PM Who could have, I mean because I have material all on my line. NL You mentioned there were some contacts between Ursula Caberta and ... PM Karin....yes NL Spaink. PM Yes. The point is she made name for herself.. NL Spaink? PM Yes, Caberta, Nolte, Bluhm, I mean, these areas. But I think that's where she will move to......She can not back off Scientology anymore.....Even if it gets to a point where she will remove the materials, you go into a second phase of the war against Scientology. Well, er ...there is too much name to it now. NL So was that E-mail from Caberta or.....? PM There were ....(inaudible)..contacts in every.... NL No, you mentioned some other ....Nolte...Do they also communicate... PM With Spaink. Yes. At least to her own saying...I mean.... NL That's what she said? AC (?) But you never had any direct contact with Caberta? PM No. Because the point is, well, we did, we moved Karin into the..... AC The forefront? PM That's right. I mean, she's the face of it. AC She sent a hundred E-mails. She sent out a hundred E-mails, right? Was that a result of the discussions on the check (????)? PM On expanding it. AC On expanding it? That was a result of that time? PM Get a base, get a big as possible AC Did they tell you why they wanted that? PM Why they wanted to expand? First to make it hard to catch people.......Flooded.....Second: the more people, the more publicity...... If there are only .....two or three people...what are you gonna do? They are looking coward (????) they go back off and if there's a group, you used to come on cause. AC Was there any talk about...because there would be hundreds or thousands that it would be impossible for the court to stop it? PM Yes AC Okay PM Because you always.....you can take out a few. But out of the mass.....plus, I mean....where is your....what is secret? If it is... AC The other thing was to harm the trades secret (????) PM That's correct. AC And that was discussed with Erlich and (?????/) PM That's correct.....Because that's been in the ...(?????/) in The Hague. Holland is blue, I mean, what is there to keep secret, another hope was that....If you have hundreds of them END OF TAPE SIDE A [Continued in part 2] -------------------------------------------------------- [PM= Peter Mante] [AC= Allan Cartwright] START OF TAPE SIDE B PM ....and you win, you get people to remove it. Where is it spread? It's everywhere. There was this all came out hey, I may going for it. I mean, where you're fighting for, still. You never put it back, you never close it again, I mean because... AC You (..?) to never stop it? PM That's right. That 's why there was actually some surprise at least in the Dutch site....Why the hell are they going to court? AC Are they going to court ? PM I mean: it's a lost case! The only thing is, well, I mean I do understand now, it's why does it (inaudible).... I mean it has another significance.......Because there was serious doubt on conviction. In this sense okay, Scientology is a lot of money making organization (?) that's what they feel you. So religious feelings as such were actually not taken into the equation. I mean: it's a pre-tax, it's not feeling. So than you would make a calculation okay, how much does it cost to fight this, what can we win, can't stop it, the costs would be too high, drop it. AC or NL Where did you actually get the Affidavit from ? PM Phew! From Fons's (???) homepage, because Fons's homepage got packed....and after it got removed it....the whole homepage was paged into a ZIP... AC A ZIP file? PM A ZIP file. So I picked the ZIP file. That's why immediate ly, the whole idea of that was that immediately you take it and ...ba-ba-boom boom and you have a whole page full, at once. AC A lot of stuff. PM A lot of stuff, that's right there was not only the Affidavit, there was Scarf and ...er ... everything he had at that time was directly duplicated. So the first homepage was ..... ....I mean setting up the homepage took me five minutes. And than from there you start your own thing. AC The Touretsky had also had a homepage after one point. PM That's correct. AC And he put it into a homepage format. Now, how did the guys over here get that page? PM They copied it off. AC You don't know how... I remember a lot of ,...there wer two versions, one version which was just in text form.... PM There was one big...there was an argument about it. The point is that, myself and a few others, we said: okay, dunk beautifying (????/) the damn thing because it is an Affidavit, keep it as a court document as ugly as it is. Dunk beautifying it because any modification in a court document would nullify the status of it. There were others who wer a bit more ambitious to have a professional nice kicking (?) web-thing. Two actually did that. I saw Moscowitz (??????/) from there. But as soon as a homepage or anything pops up, you may well copy it off. That's a question of minutes. AC So, okay, so you don't know how thr Touretsky version got on? PM No, I mean people all have seen it and has copied it. It's the same with... I had a homepage of about 12 meg Scientology materials. Well, you spend five minutes on the Net, you surf some new stuff and you copy it over, I mean , .......That's what put Jennifer by the way.... AC What? PM That's something what's put Jennifer. Because Jennifer started believing at a certain moment too that the CIA was actually involved in it. Because within no time, I mean, I had a stack of data, I mean , this is fantastic. If you're not used to the Internet, that looks like major work.. AC Right PM But it isn't. AC Just a couple of tics (tricks?) PM That's right AC Who's idea was it to get all the other access providers involved in this? PM Er.. Felipe AC Felipe. Okay. And to get them to the ....?????... subscribers with materials on the Net? PM Yes, right. Spread it. Let it come in front. AC Right. And was that after the check-discussions (???) as well? PM Yes, correct......That was directly after the action was established as an action. AC Right. And that's when Lerma and Erlich were involved ? PM That was one of the reasons too why Karel went to (inaudible)........Because okay, there was a lot of pressure on XS4ALL. For example with Cistron....I phoned Danny and I said listen, will I get into that? What do you want? Shall I open a homepage at XS4all or are you willing to face it? He would hear. I said well, go ahead it's your responsibility, back it off. AC Allright. Than we asked you about Graham Berry (?????/)... PM I never spoke with him. AC You never spoke to him. You never received any communication at all? PM No, if I spoke, it could be verbal, it could be chat, it could be E-mail, that er.... AC Okay. PM ......(inaudible) was Fishman. AC ......(inaudible) contact with Fishman you mean? PM Actually that must have been... AC April 1 was that. April. PM Yes. AC Okay. PM Was to do with a big argument. Because Karin nullified too much for me. (????????/) I said at the time: that's crap, because first it's not that we started this, second it's not a courtdocument anymore. Again any nullification, I mean, you can hardly call this a courtdocument anymore. AC Who's idea was it to do that ? PM According to her: Bakker Schut AC Do you know why? PM The thing is that apparently copyright was established towards him. (???/) So they would have lost all that. AC Or the fear was that we would lose honour (???/) .........(Inaudible)....stick to the courtdocument, the thing about Scientology may be not having the copyrights on the OT levels, that was an added bonus, but it's not where we started this. We started with: they have copyrights on the originals, but, we're talking about an Affidavit, (?????/) the Affidavit, that's what we were both working on. AC Right. You guys knew that that was... PM That that was the case. During the meeting it was very clear. Now, listen, if you would have the full OT levels, no way you put it all on a homepage. Guaranteed. But because these are exhibit in that courtdocument, that's what we go for. But it was no question about wether you had copyrights on the originals or not. That only came later when Fishman came with his....notion that they possibly would have, hey, great! What else did you want? AC Did you guys really believe that what you were doing was okay? PM ....Er.....I think yes. AC You really did? PM In this sense....not on the copyright thing. As purely technical.... lets put it this way: If it were... if it would have been....Hemingway ....let's say something, we would (not???)have done it. (????) AC Even if it's far from the court? PM That's correct AC Technically you thought it was incorrect? PM Technically yes. But we can (inaudible) to push this through but the reason is, it's because it's an dispiccable (???) organization which violates human rights. You know, that's the context. .....Affidavits, you know, you would have had about almost anything.......That thing about the propaganda.....that really really works. I was walking around ....(inaudible).. because I was quite sure that something physically pretty violent would take place. I had something like eight or nine Affidavits on my homepage. You read these Affidavits, again, I mean, you don't know Scientology. I don't think you would have joined. If that is all. AC Makes sense. PM That combined with the thing, well, ....by definition, that what Scientology says is all true ......(inaudible).... So you don't listen to any information to the contrary. AC What communications did you have with Kim Baker (???) ? PM With Kim Baker. In the IOC thing (??????) yes. AC What communications did you have with Kim Baker? PM With Kim Baker? In the IRC-thing (????) yes. AC Putting the materials on ? PM That's correct. But no personal E-mail exchanges. AC What about... I asked you about Voorlaan (?????). You don't .....(inaudible) ... PM No. AC Okay. Alex..... PM De Joode. AC Is it de Joode? Right. PM De Joode. Yes. AC Did you know about the controversy of the problem you're (???) having with him operating the remailer? PM Yes. AC Now that situation, when did that situation start? PM Well, the thing is...that started actually just before the false...(?????)-thing. There was little into the .... (?????) - thing. AC What data did you have...did you know about that? PM There was a problem between Scientology and the Joode on the remailer. That must have been just before or during the .(.???? raid?) AC Do you know Alex? PM Yes. AC How long have you ...known him for? (?????) PM I've known him in the Hacktic period. I've met him once during (??????meeting) AC You only met him once than? PM Yes. Physically, Because the point is that that community.... I know Felipe real well, when I saw him on the meeting, I had a whole (inaudible) .... Rodriguez ... (inaudible) and this and that. So than you recognize him. Because yeah, there so many people I know very very well. AC But only on the Net? PM Only on the Net yes. AC What's Alex's background than? PM He's a hack. (????) He's a hacks (???????). Say hacks for the ... to...to .. I think he's still doing it, I mean, but..... AC What's his employ... what does he do workwise? PM I don't know what he's doing. AC Okay. I thought he was an University student. PM Yea. He has something to do with law. AC That's what I thought too. PM Yes. Because the first ...(?) the first advice is ... the first questions were actually asked to Alex, relating to the fair use thing (???) and so on. AC He was wrong in that too, by the way. PM Well, possible, (laughs) I'm not a lawyer, I mean, ... AC I read the posting. PM Huh-huh. AC Have you heard of Keith Vincent? (????) PM I know the name. AC Right. He's one of the defendants in the lawsuits........ You haven't heard of him or contacted ..... PM No. No-no. I mean: it's a name I know, familiar as.... AC Okay. Wollersheim? (?????) PM Wollersheim, again it's a name. I don't even know when he was ..... (inaudible) he was Capricorn... AC What is that? PM I thought at a certain moment that he was Capricorn AC ....(Inaudible) ... nothing to confirm. PM No that's right. AC And than Weevers? PM Weevers I know yeah. I mean.... Oh yeah... Yeah! AC Weevers? PM Yes. Yes. AC What is his background? PM As far as I know he is an engineer. AC Ah I see. Okay. He... he was... PM We're talking about Johan Weevers huh? Yes. AC What's that? PM The Dutch Weevers..? Yes? AC That's right. Yes. Weevers...... He was ... Was he involved in the original meetings too? PM (????) (Inaudible) AC (inaudible)...... PM He made a name for himself ...trying to place in NOTS (the NOTS????) I mean... AC Afterwards? PM Yeah. AC But he did that in ...August... (????/) PM Yeah. AC But there was another person, this is (inaudible)... person, who posted NOTS in May. PM I think that's where the ... what the copy from. AC The May thing? (speakin at the same time, inaudible) PM Yeah. Because I was just in the VPRO AC You don't know who Volan (????/) is? PM No AC Right. Do you know who Gerard .........(inaudible) is? PM Well, he really is a (inaudible....) AC He sent an E-mail to.... addressed to Karin. It actually went to Danny Teer (??????/) PM Yeah. Well.... AC ..To Danny.... Which is talking about PM Yes. I see that. Because what we did in some of the E-mails...... er... it went to ARS AC It went to ARS too? PM Yes. AC Oh yes. It did too. PM Because on the routing it would go to DTH because DTH forwarded it at that time to the VPRO AC (?) (inaudible) go to ARS? ..... AC This is where you're talking about Erlich also PM Hu-huh. AC .....(?????) you people to put that on. (....) there was like an E-mail sent to Karin. PM That's correct. AC I mean: she would put it on... PM On the ... er .. mailing list yeah. AC And than there was one way? PM Yeah. AC Right. So actually the discussion wether to put Scamdizat on or not was discussed within the internal list? PM That's correct. ... (naudible) there was also ... talking about it ...some E-mails. The man that was said on the internal list, for Chrissake don't! I mean, because... it might blow us away. AC But he also talked about... Erlich also talked about in the (inaudible) on getting the... (???????) PM That's correct. AC And the materials can't... as many... PM ...places as possible. AC ... places as possible. NL (?) .....inaudible question, sound of papers ) PM ... because I dug it up. Oh yeah! That's Jennifer. AC Oh, Jennifer is here. Right. PM That's Jennifer, yes....... (inaudible...) AC (reading out) ?????...... us in WW that this whole thing about the war... PM That was her idea yes. AC And than you, Newkid, have been using your (?????) to see this. Is this after it was exposed, the whole...? PM This was... yes, this was after exposure. She saw... She wanted to get even. Wanted to get the Embassey. AC (?????/) the Embassey? PM Yeah...... I told her that I posted it, but I never did. AC I got it. PM Because she has no real access to begin with. AC Right.....Felipe had said that the reasom why he wouldn't give the identity.... was just a.... PM That was just an excuse. AC An excuse that was made up. Who's idea was it to... PM Well, it was discussed during the meeting..... because a lot of the people were no law students (?????) so how were you going to keep them safe? Because, yeah, they get into court, they gone, all. AC Do you know that ..... (? ) Felipe was telling these subscribers and telling them that if they get sued...? PM What ....(?) said was that Schut Bakker makes beautiful deals. So that everything goes via Schut Bakker for very very reduced rates. AC Huhuh. I got it. They were told they wouldn't have to pay anything than? (??????/) PM No, like that. AC But that that would be very reduced? PM Yes. Correct. (??????) ....the advantaged..... (inaudible).... AC We got them on tape. PM ...ask for your bullshit, you'll get the better... (laughs) AC .....(????) whole E-mail comm they said that you wrote: Did some checking on the whole copyrights issue... (???/) US lawyer. PM Yes. AC Who was the US lawyer? PM That was the (??????) of the Embassey. AC Oh, I got it! PM I went there and ... er.. spoke about the chances with an Affidavit. AC Right. But he did not know that it was actually exhibited attached to an Affidavit? PM ...Er.. he did know that. AC He did? PM He did. AC But he was not a copyright lawyer? PM No. International. AC Just international law? PM Yes. I mean: better as I am... I always thought there is a ..... much better document (????) So he er.... don't expect any problems......... I start getting careful with my language.....(????) AC I know. I can say the same thing. Maybe we should ... just stop here. We'll stop here.