======== To: tilman@berlin.snafu.de Subject: 1 From: dev-null@no-id.com Date: 19 May 2002 04:27:59 -0000 -------- 1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 3, 2002, morning session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 2 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MS. HELENA KOBRIN MOXON & KOBRIN 13 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 14 Attorney for David Houghton. 15 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 16 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 17 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 18 Organization. 19 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor 20 New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 21 Organization. 22 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 23 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 24 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 3 1 2 ALSO PRESENT: 3 Ms. Donna West Ms. Dell Liebreich 4 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 5 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 6 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 5 1 THE COURT: I forgot to tell you, I think they 2 have 400 jurors summoned for a -- 3 MR. WIENBERG: We're all going to be 4 contributing to the city of Clearwater. 5 THE COURT: Exactly. 6 And remind me, if this case goes forward, to 7 discuss with you jury matters, kind of. We will, 8 ahead of time -- as I understand it, civil jurors 9 are selected south and north of Ulmerton Road, which 10 is the way it's always been done. Criminal jurors 11 are selected countywide. If there's going to be a 12 problem with the civil jurors that way, then we may 13 want to, as much as I would dislike the drive, go to 14 the criminal complex, pick the jury where they're 15 summonsed every day. We could go day-to-day, 16 day-to-day, until we had a jury, and then bring them 17 down here. 18 So I don't know if that's going to be an issue. 19 I could do the same thing down here. But they're 20 going to be different sides of the dividing line. 21 And if that's going to be an issue, I want it 22 raised, I want it heard, so that -- so that the jury 23 coordinator can figure out what we want to do there. 24 As is my custom, I'll tell you what I've had a 25 chance to get through last night. And it wasn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 6 1 everything. I did the best I could, but I just 2 couldn't read any more law about 1:00. 3 But for once I took your cases first. I took 4 the defense cases and read all of them. Maybe 5 because it was a smaller packet. 6 I did have a chance to read the original 7 affidavit of Jesse Prince. And I see now that -- 8 why there's going to be a motion for summary 9 judgment, and I see now what the complaint is really 10 about. I frankly went back and reread it. I think 11 that we -- that the allegations are clearly a -- 12 either intentional act or -- or culpable negligence 13 manslaughter. And I -- I even brought some of the 14 criminal law in here and the standard jury 15 instructions, went back and reviewed what 16 manslaughter is. 17 Manslaughter can be by intentional act or by 18 culpable negligence. Which we all know what that 19 is. If you don't, read the jury instructions and 20 you'll find it. 21 I think, as I read the complaint, that that is 22 the path that the plaintiff has alleged. And I 23 think Mr. Dandar confirmed that yesterday. I think 24 that I probably misspoke. And a lot of that was 25 just due to the fact that I guess I thought the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 7 1 case -- you know how it is when you just don't read 2 a complaint; I really hadn't read that complaint 3 very carefully. As I read it, I probably have 4 erred. The mere fact that somebody isn't a party or 5 is dismissed as a party doesn't mean that the person 6 can't be mentioned in the proof. So summary 7 judgment's going to be -- Mr. Fugate had indicated 8 there would be two summary judgments forthcoming at 9 some point in time. You'll file it, we'll hear it. 10 If there's -- if there's an issue of fact, then 11 obviously it'll go to the jury. And that's the 12 tack -- I was wrong yesterday. So we'll work that 13 out at a later proceeding as to exactly what -- what 14 parts of the complaint can go forward, and if some 15 can't, what those are. That really isn't for this 16 hearing. And I -- 17 Except for the fact that I do think that what 18 was stated as to whatever Mr. Prince's involvement 19 was to get the case in the present posture may have 20 some -- some bearing. 21 Maybe that's why judges are passivists, so they 22 just sit back and don't say too much, and then they 23 don't have to renege on what they said. 24 In any event, I read the -- as I said, all of 25 the law. I read the original affidavit of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 8 1 Mr. Prince. 2 I did not read your notice of filing excerpts 3 of Mr. Minton's depositions because I had really 4 kind of read them throughout. I assume that you'll 5 be referring to what you want to refer to in this 6 hearing, so I didn't take the time to read all of 7 that once I realized that it's the four different 8 depositions, and I assume you're going to refer to 9 what you think is important. 10 I did read notice of filing affidavit in 11 opposition that was filed as an affidavit by 12 Mr. Prince, in its entirety. I did read as many of 13 the defense cases -- I'm sorry -- yeah. I said 14 defense. I get the parties all confused. 15 I read the plaintiff's cases, all of the 16 plaintiff's cases. I read the defendant's cases 17 real quick. I just kind of glanced through them. I 18 noticed that you all refer to some of the same 19 cases. I probably got -- 20 Well, I see, at page -- at tab 12, I'm 21 underlining, and I see that on 14 I made some 22 comments. So I haven't finished that. I'll take it 23 home again this weekend and try to read through the 24 rest of the law. 25 I read enough of the law to be -- to be Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 9 1 persuaded that I must do two things here. And that 2 is, on any disqualification motion, it appears there 3 needs to be an evidentiary hearing and there needs 4 to be findings of fact. I assume therefore that 5 means whether the court grants disqualification or 6 doesn't grant disqualification, there needs to be a 7 full evidentiary hearing and finding of fact that 8 can be reviewed. So we're going to go forward today 9 with the evidentiary hearing. 10 I also read a case, I believe, provided by the 11 defendant, that talked about allegations of fraud. 12 Says, "The court should adhere to due process, 13 adversarial practice and evidentiary rule in 14 conducting an inquiry into charges that fraud have 15 been perpetrated on the court." I believe that was 16 a dismissal of the charge. I think it was one of 17 our local judges, actually. When I -- I read that 18 and I also saw another case that seems to say that 19 before the court should consider dismissing the 20 case, there should be an evidentiary hearing. 21 Putting all of that together, I think that it 22 would behoove us to go on ahead and have the 23 evidentiary hearing, and we shall do that. 24 I'm still fairly comfortable with the reading 25 of the transcripts. However, I'm assuming that both Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 10 1 Mr. Dandar will be testifying before me, so that I 2 can observe him, and Mr. Minton will be as well. If 3 that doesn't happen, then this court is going to 4 have to judge credibility. And in all probability, 5 I need -- I need that. I mean, I think as long as 6 there's some testimony where I can observe the 7 witness and see the demeanor of the witness while 8 testifying, the types of things I would normally do. 9 Sometimes it helps, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes 10 you have to look to the words that are spoken and 11 how it makes sense. But sometimes it does. So if 12 I'm going to be judging credibility, I'm going to 13 have to see both of those persons live, at least in 14 part. 15 So I know Mr. Dandar's going to testify this 16 morning, so that would be an opportunity for me to 17 observe him. And I assume Mr. Minton is coming in 18 on Monday, and that would be an opportunity to 19 observe him. 20 MR. FUGATE: That's correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So as long as I'm able to observe 22 these people in -- in some fashion in testimony 23 before me, I'm still comfortable taking the rest of 24 it and introducing it as part of this hearing in 25 their testimony, because I think I'll have an Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 11 1 adequate opportunity to observe them. 2 If that's going to be an issue, in fairness -- 3 I could understand it; I could understand why you'd 4 want me to say, "You've got to see it all," and I'll 5 do that. But I think if we're still in agreement 6 that as long as I see both of the -- what I would 7 call principal witnesses, as to some of the issues, 8 that I can -- I can judge their credibility by 9 seeing them in part, that's fine. 10 So if you all are still comfortable with that, 11 that's fine. If you decide you're not, let me know. 12 Let's see. 13 So we're going to have an evidentiary hearing. 14 I read a case, kind of a brief case, that kind 15 of implied that an attorney's misdeeds could cause a 16 case to be dismissed and allow the person to have an 17 action against the attorney, or at least they said 18 the judge didn't abuse her discretion, even though 19 the appellate court wouldn't have done that. So you 20 know, I've read enough now where I feel comfortable 21 that I have an understanding of the issues much 22 better than I did before. 23 Thank goodness the perjury cases I read said 24 what I thought they would say. I did forget this. 25 But materiality is an issue for the court alone. So Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 12 1 that's a matter of law. So I'm going to have to 2 make that determination as a matter of law. 3 And there's another element in there that we 4 tend to forget about, and it can be critical in this 5 case, particularly as it may pertain to all of the 6 witnesses, and that is that they not only give false 7 testimony, but that they know that it's false. In 8 other words, that they know when they're making it 9 that it's false testimony. 10 Materiality, as I said, is an issue of law. 11 So having had a chance -- 12 I was thinking that we presented that to the 13 jury, to be quite candid. But apparently not. 14 So I learned something last night, got myself 15 refreshed. You know, I hate to tell you all this, 16 but fortunately, I don't have to deal with these 17 issues every day. So it was good that I had this 18 law to look at to see where we're going. I think I 19 have enough direction now that I -- from the cases 20 provided, that I know what I need to be listening 21 to, and will do so, and will complete the reading of 22 the cases provided to me by the church this weekend. 23 I don't imagine we're going to finish today. 24 So by the time Monday rolls around, hopefully I'll 25 have had a chance to read everybody's cases. Okay? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 13 1 So that's where we are. 2 So with that in mind, we might as well begin to 3 complete the evidentiary hearing begun by Judge 4 Baird. And I assume that at some point in time, 5 since this testimony will not be a part of this 6 proceeding, that we had better -- and I have copies, 7 but I'd sure like to keep my copies -- we had better 8 introduce into evidence in this proceeding the total 9 transcript, copy of the total transcript of the 10 hearing before Judge Baird. And I'm talking now 11 about the evidentiary hearing where there was cross 12 examination and that type of thing, the two days of 13 testimony. 14 MR. WIENBERG: Why don't we just call that 15 Court Exhibit 1? 16 THE COURT: That would be fine. Court 17 Exhibit 1, agreed to by both sides. That would be 18 testimony the court would consider as if it was 19 given live in front of her. 20 MR. LIROT: Agreed to. 21 THE COURT: Agreed. 22 (Court's Exhibit Number 1 marked.) 23 MR. WIENBERG: And just as in that hearing, we 24 would invoke the rule as it relates to witnesses. 25 THE COURT: Okay. The -- Madam Clerk, I can't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 14 1 give that to you yet, but somebody will provide a 2 copy of this to the clerk as the court's exhibit at 3 some point. I don't -- I can't give her mine 4 because I need it. If I give her mine, I don't have 5 one. 6 MR. FUGATE: We'll -- we'll -- we'll get a copy 7 and make sure that Mr. Lirot -- oh -- 8 THE COURT: You know what I'm talking about? I 9 don't need the day where Mr. Minton testified in his 10 contempt hearing before Judge Baird. That's not 11 what I perceive we're supposed to be doing; the full 12 evidentiary hearing with the due process, 13 adversarial practice. And so that wasn't it. 14 That's a different proceeding. 15 MR. WIENBERG: Well, we'll get it together and 16 by Monday we'll -- 17 THE COURT: Okay. Right. 18 MR. WIENBERG: -- we'll -- 19 MR. DANDAR: All right. So I believe where the 20 case left off in front of Judge Baird was the -- the 21 church, who was plaintiff there, had concluded with 22 Mr. Dandar, on calling him again, or recall or 23 finishing up or whatever it was, and Mr. Lirot, you 24 had not at all cross examined. Is that where we 25 were? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 15 1 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: So Mr. Dandar, if you want to 3 resume the stand? 4 MR. LIROT: If I may, Judge -- 5 THE COURT: You may. 6 MR. LIROT: -- we have a witness, Mr. Leipold 7 in California -- 8 THE COURT: Yes. 9 MR. LIROT: If we could call him out of 10 order -- we had talked yesterday about introducing 11 his letter and having him authenticate that letter. 12 I'd like to try to get him on the phone first. I 13 understand he has travel plans. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. LIROT: So if that's acceptable to the 16 court -- 17 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, may I address that? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 MR. HERTZBERG: I want to bring to the court's 20 attention the fact that Mr. Leipold is an attorney 21 in California who has represented both Robert Minton 22 and Stacy Brooks within the past -- well, last 23 April -- at a deposition in a matter that's pending 24 in the Middle District in Tampa before Judge 25 Whittemore, and Mr. Leipold's firm represented Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 16 1 Mr. Minton as well at a deposition in this very 2 litigation several years ago. 3 And we're all aware that Mr. Minton's attorney 4 is not in -- present today. And it just raised a 5 question in my mind -- we don't have the standing to 6 raise it, but I was wondering to myself, and now I'm 7 wondering out loud, whether there may be some 8 privilege issues that are implicated by this 9 gentleman rendering any testimony with respect to 10 conversations he's had with Mr. Minton, or 11 Ms. Brooks, for that matter. 12 THE COURT: Could be. 13 MR. HERTZBERG: And it -- perhaps -- 14 THE COURT: I don't know that that's what he 15 was going to do. I thought he was going to 16 authenticate a document. 17 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: So with that -- 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Is the document -- may I -- may 20 I ask whether -- whether that document is a document 21 that has to do at all, Mr. Lirot, with conversations 22 between -- purported conversations between 23 Mr. Minton and -- and his attorney, Mr. Leipold? 24 THE COURT: That's another issue. 25 The issue is whether this witness can Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 17 1 authenticate a document. Whether the document's 2 admissible can raise any issue that Mr. Minton's 3 lawyer wants to raise. And if I think that it looks 4 like it's privileged, we'll wait till we see what 5 Mr. Minton's attorney wants to say. I don't know 6 what the document says. 7 But if this witness is available to 8 authenticate a document, saying, "I wrote this 9 document," then I think he can testify to that, 10 regardless of any privilege. Whether it comes in or 11 not is a different matter. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, may we see a copy 13 of the letter? 14 THE COURT: Sure. 15 MR. HERTZBERG: I asked for that earlier. 16 THE COURT: Can I see it? 17 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. If I may approach? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 Well, of course, any objection that maybe 20 wanted to be made can be made. But once you publish 21 something -- of course, I don't know. Mr. Minton, I 22 suppose, could still raise an objection. 23 Who is Mr. Wollersheim? I see his name pop up 24 from time to time. 25 MR. DANDAR: He's a former Scientologist who's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 18 1 been in litigation with the church since, I think, 2 '82. 3 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, he's -- 4 THE COURT: In a what kind of suit? 5 MR. DANDAR: Emotional distress; intentional 6 infliction of emotional distress. 7 THE COURT: He's a plaintiff against the 8 church. 9 MR. DANDAR: And he has a judgment. 10 MR. HERTZBERG: He's represented by Mr. Leipold 11 using the same witnesses that essentially have been 12 used here and -- 13 THE COURT: I don't need to know that right 14 now. What I need to know is, Mr. Leipold is a 15 plaintiff who's suing the church? Is that it? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 17 MR. LIROT: Mr. Leipold's counsel for the 18 plaintiff. 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Mr. Wollersheim is -- 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: -- a plaintiff suing the church in 22 California. 23 MR. LIROT: Correct. 24 THE COURT: And Mr. Leipold is his lawyer? 25 MR. LIROT: That's correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 19 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Not suing this church, your 2 Honor. 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 4 MR. HERTZBERG: He's not suing this church. 5 THE COURT: Okay. The Flag. 6 MR. HERTZBERG: Yes. He's not suing the Flag 7 Service Organization. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Well, let's call him the 9 man. I guess all you want him to do is say he has a 10 copy of this letter in front of him and it's an 11 authentic document? 12 MR. LIROT: Correct, Judge. We had some just 13 very brief fill-in inquiry of him. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: See, that's what I object to. 15 If they simply want to ask him did he write this 16 letter, which the copy I have is unsigned -- if they 17 want to ask him if he sent this May 1st, 2000 letter 18 to Mr. Dandar, I suppose that would authenticate it 19 and I probably won't have any questions at that 20 point. 21 But this is testimony, this letter. And if 22 they're going to go into it, I'm going to object. 23 Because first of all, I -- if -- if they go into 24 substance, it's going to implicate the area that 25 I've identified, where I think Mr. Howie's input is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 20 1 required. And moreover, we're -- I'm going to want 2 to show him documents and -- and cross examine him 3 with documents. And we can't do that by telephone. 4 So I would reserve the -- you know -- 5 THE COURT: What -- 6 MR. HERTZBERG: If -- 7 THE COURT: What are you -- 8 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 9 THE COURT: What are you wanting to fill in? 10 MR. LIROT: -- only foundational material, 11 explaining to the court what the Wollersheim case 12 is, and I think to establish just a brief 13 description of the cause of action. Probably no 14 different than what Mr. Dandar did. Nothing that 15 would require extensive cross examination. And all 16 we want to do is be able to establish that whatever 17 conversations took place between he and Ms. Brooks 18 have nothing to do with this case, so there's no 19 privilege that would attach to something that 20 happened in the Wollersheim case. That's it. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I have two 22 responses. 23 First of all, I think Mr. Howie has -- who's 24 now representing, in this case, at this hearing, 25 these witnesses who have been represented by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 21 1 Mr. Leipold, will have to be apprised and have any 2 input on whether privileges are implicated or not. 3 Mr. Lirot's representation that they are not is 4 sufficient. 5 THE COURT: Nothing he just told me has a thing 6 to do with any privilege. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, the other point I would 8 like to make, to raise an issue, is a relevancy 9 objection. I don't know why in the world this court 10 needs to be filled in by this witness in California 11 about a case that's pending in Los Angeles. I -- I 12 don't see what the purpose is. So I guess I'm 13 baffled as to why we're undertaking this enterprise 14 at all. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, the only reason that we want 16 to ask Mr. Leipold anything has nothing to do with 17 any confidential or privileged information. Has to 18 do with money, his dealing with Mr. Minton as far as 19 money. 20 I don't care what they said about anything. 21 All I want to do is show that Mr. Minton has a 22 custom and practice of funding these types of cases, 23 that -- if they involved the Church of Scientology 24 for any reason. And that quite honestly, a number 25 of issues that have been critical to us made by Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 22 1 opposing counsel are something that Mr. Minton has a 2 standard of doing, to show that he's in the habit of 3 giving away a lot of money, never gets an agreement 4 in writing. None of that's privileged. 5 And there's no order such as what we have with 6 the Second DCA. I don't believe there's any 7 companion order in the Wollersheim case. So we can 8 ask about money in that case. 9 THE COURT: I think that's relevant. 10 MR. HERTZBERG: Why would that have any 11 relevancy, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Doesn't matter -- 13 MR. HERTZBERG: Why would Mr. -- 14 THE COURT: -- what you think. I said I think 15 it's relevant. That's the end of that. 16 All right. Let's go ahead. 17 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 18 MR. HERTZBERG: Before we get him on the phone, 19 your Honor, how am I going to cross examine him with 20 documents if -- 21 THE COURT: See what you need and we'll see if 22 we can do it. If we can't, why, we'll have to 23 strike his testimony. 24 MR. LIROT: Candidly, Judge, I don't think he's 25 going to exceed the scope of any question, so I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 23 1 don't know what documents he's going to have. But 2 we'll get to that when we get to that. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. LIROT: Shall I dial the number, Judge? 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 (Phone call being made.) 7 THE COURT: You're absolutely going to get into 8 no conversations between him and anyone he's ever 9 represented, particularly Mr. Minton, whose lawyer's 10 not here. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll be cautious, your Honor. 12 MR. FUGATE: May I be excused a moment, your 13 Honor? I'm not going to be -- 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 MR. LIEPOLD: Hello? 16 MR. LIROT: Mr. Leipold? 17 MR. LIEPOLD: Yeah. 18 MR. LIROT: Good morning. This is Luke Lirot. 19 I'm before Judge Schaeffer. We're in court right 20 now. There is a court reporter taking down your 21 statements this morning. 22 Could you please state your name and spell -- 23 THE COURT: Wait -- wait just a minute. 24 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 25 THE COURT: Hi. Mr. Leipold? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 24 1 MR. LIEPOLD: Good morning. 2 THE COURT: Good morning. My name is Judge 3 Schaeffer. How are you? 4 MR. LIEPOLD: I'm fine. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Leipold, if I were to ask you 6 to raise your right hand and receive an oath, would 7 you understand that, while you're here in front of 8 this court on the phone, that I would perceive and 9 consider that oath to be binding, and therefore 10 whatever oaths mean in Cal- -- in Florida, I'm sure 11 they mean in California? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: And would you do that for me? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, I will. 15 THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand? 16 ___________________________________ 17 DANIEL LEIPOLD, 18 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 19 and testified as follows: 20 THE COURT: You may lower your hand. And thank 21 you. 22 DIRECT EXAMINATION 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Could you please state your name and spell your 25 last name for the record? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 25 1 A My name is Daniel Leipold, L-e-i-p-o-l-d. 2 Q And Mr. Leipold, how are you employed? 3 A I'm an attorney. 4 Q And are you a member of the California bar in good 5 standing? 6 A Yes, I am. 7 Q Have you had an opportunity to litigate a cause of 8 action with a gentleman by the name of Larry Wollersheim and 9 I guess what I'll call an affiliate of the Church of 10 Scientology? 11 A I am Mr. Wollersheim's attorney in an action 12 against the Church of Scientology in California that also 13 includes the Church of Scientology International and 14 Religious Technology Center. 15 Q All right. Could you briefly describe the nature 16 of that cause of action to the court? 17 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 18 Relevance. 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 A As to -- 21 THE COURT: You may -- you may be right, but I 22 want to hear it. And I may just throw it out. But 23 I don't know because I don't know what it is, so -- 24 A This is a case that was tried to judgment in 1986. 25 And there is -- it is currently -- the judgment is currently Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 26 1 worth approximately $8.6 million, and I am in post-trial 2 proceedings to apply the judgment against Religious 3 Technology Center and Church of Scientology International as 4 the alter-egos of Church of Scientology of California, in 5 order to collect the judgment. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. And have you had an opportunity to use 8 expert witnesses and consultants in that cause of action? 9 A Yes, I have. 10 Q Can you tell this court who those individuals 11 would be? 12 A I've used a number of them. One would be Robert 13 Vaughn Young, another would be Stacy Young, and another 14 would be Jesse Prince. 15 Q All right. And in that litigation, have you had 16 an opportunity to file a declaration? And I guess what 17 I'll -- I'll ask, are you aware that a declaration is the 18 equivalent of what we call in Florida an affidavit? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And can you tell the court what the significance 21 of a declaration is under the California Rules of Civil 22 Procedure? 23 A It is -- 24 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 25 A It is -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 27 1 THE COURT: Overruled. 2 A -- essentially the same thing as an affidavit, 3 only in California you don't have to have a notary republic 4 (sic) sign for the witness. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right. And did you have an opportunity to 7 receive such a declaration from Stacy Brooks? 8 A In the Wollersheim case? Yes -- 9 Q That's correct. 10 A -- I did. 11 Q Were there any developments regarding Ms. Brooks 12 and the tender of that declaration to the court in your 13 case? 14 A I filed the declaration originally, I believe, 15 sometime in mid-1997, and I received a telephone call from 16 Ms. Brooks on April 8th, I believe, 2002, in which she told 17 me that she and Robert Minton were attempting to settle 18 legal actions against them or settle with the Church of 19 Scientology, and she wished me to withdraw that declaration 20 from the -- from the court. And then later that day, Bob 21 Minton -- 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor -- 23 A -- he asked me to dismiss that action on behalf of 24 my client. 25 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, we now have him Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 28 1 discussing the substance of conversations with 2 Ms. Brooks, who he has represented as an attorney. 3 This is exactly what I feared would happen and why I 4 felt it was necessary for Mr. Howie to address this 5 issue before we went -- 6 THE COURT: Mr. Howie -- 7 MR. HERTZBERG: -- down this -- 8 THE COURT: -- doesn't represent Ms. Brooks. 9 Is Mr. -- 10 MR. HERTZBERG: Mr. McGowan. He's not present. 11 But I don't know how this lawyer, who has 12 represented both of those witnesses, can testify 13 about conversations with either of them. 14 THE COURT: Counsel, did you ever represent 15 Stacy Brooks? 16 THE WITNESS: I have represented her at 17 deposition. 18 THE COURT: Well, I guess that's 19 representation. 20 So that testimony will be stricken from the 21 record until such time as we can see whether or not 22 there's an objection to it by her lawyer. 23 THE WITNESS: All right. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Mr. Leipold, did you have an opportunity to author Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 29 1 a letter dated May 1st, 2002, sent via facsimile to Ken 2 Dandar of the firm Dandar and Dandar? 3 A Yes. 4 MR. LIROT: And Judge -- 5 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I'm going to object 6 to any questions about this letter. This -- the 7 letter is entirely, in terms of substance, about 8 conversations he purportedly had with Stacy Brooks 9 and Robert Minton. 10 THE COURT: All I heard him ask is whether he 11 authored this letter. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, I'm anticipating. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, with all caution, if 15 we could do an offer of proof, I could read the 16 letter into the record and ask him to authenticate 17 the text of the letter. 18 THE COURT: I think that all you need to do, if 19 we're trying to authenticate the letter, is ask him 20 if he wrote it. Let's just get enough information 21 from him to make sure that this is the same letter 22 we're talking about. 23 MR. LIROT: All right. 24 THE COURT: Such as it's dated May 1st, dated 25 (sic) to Ken Dandar of Dandar and Dandar. It has a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 30 1 telephone number or fax number, (813)287-0895, Re 2 conversations with Robert Minton and Stacy Brooks. 3 It's a one-, two-, three-page letter. 4 I mean, if you want, I'll read the whole letter 5 here to get it authenticated. 6 MR. LIROT: I would like that, Judge. 7 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Mr. Leipold, I'm going to read this letter. I'm 10 going to ask you to correct anything that you think's 11 incorrect. And I'll ask you to authenticate simply the 12 contents of the letter. 13 And it says -- 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, wait. Wait. The 15 contents, as I understand, is the substance of it. 16 I think -- 17 THE COURT: Do you agree that the letter is 18 authentic and he would testify that this is the same 19 letter? And then we'll argue about the contents or 20 I'm going to have him read it. 21 Do you agree that this is the letter or not? 22 MR. WIENBERG: Yes. 23 THE COURT: And if you don't -- 24 MR. HERTZBERG: We do. 25 THE COURT: -- I'll have him read it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 31 1 MR. HERTZBERG: We do. There's no -- 2 MR. WIENBERG: If he says it is, that's the 3 letter, that's fine. 4 MR. HERTZBERG: That's all. 5 But he can't testify as to the substance now. 6 That's our position. 7 THE COURT: So the letter's authenticated. 8 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. I won't have to read 9 it. 10 EXAMINATION 11 BY THE COURT: 12 Q Mr. Leipold, the letter that I have in front of 13 me, which I believe is trying to be authenticated, is not 14 signed. 15 A Yes. There's a reason for that, your Honor. 16 Q Let's hear that. 17 A I asked my -- I sent a copy to Mr. Dandar that was 18 signed via fax. He apparently did not get the third page of 19 it. And I simply asked my secretary to send him the copy 20 again, and she simply took the copy off the computer that 21 was not signed. 22 Q So there is a signed copy to be forthcoming 23 somewhere? 24 A I had thought -- I had thought I had sent it to 25 him. But yes, there is a signed copy in my office. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 32 1 Q Okay. So -- so the copy that I have that is 2 unsigned, you're confident, is the letter that you're -- 3 that you're now authenticating. I don't want you to 4 authenticate something -- 5 A I only -- I only wrote one letter to Mr. Dandar on 6 May 1st, and I feel confident it's that. 7 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Mr. Leipold, have you become acquainted with an 11 individual by the name of Robert Minton? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And can you tell the court -- I don't want any 14 privileged conversation. Just tell the court how you became 15 acquainted with Mr. Minton. 16 A Mr. Minton contacted me sometime around 1997 and 17 he told me that he was, for want of a better word -- 18 essentially he explained to me that he was a -- 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor -- 20 A -- very concerned about -- 21 MR. HERTZBERG: -- this is conversations -- 22 A -- problems with Scientology -- 23 MR. HERTZBERG: He's now -- he's now -- 24 THE COURT: This is long before, I take it, 25 that he ever represented him. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 33 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, but we don't know -- 2 THE COURT: Is this before you ever represented 3 him? 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, long before I represented 5 him. 6 THE COURT: Overruled. 7 THE WITNESS: And it had nothing to do with the 8 representation. I guarantee that what I just told 9 the court was not attorney-client privilege in 10 California. 11 THE COURT: Was he coming to you in any 12 capacity at that time to ask you to represent him? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 THE COURT: All right. Overruled. 15 MR. LIROT: Very good. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Leipold, if you could continue with your 18 description of your acquaintance with Mr. Minton. 19 A Mr. Minton told me that he was -- that he knew my 20 client, Lawrence Wollersheim, and that he knew of an 21 organization that he was running called FACTNet, and that he 22 was interested in helping FACTNet out. He asked me some 23 questions about the Wollersheim action. With the permission 24 of my client, I told him about what the status of the 25 Wollersheim action was. And that was the status of the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 34 1 initial conversations I had with him. 2 Q All right. 3 A And I probably didn't talk to him again for 4 another five, six months. 5 Q Can you tell the court what FACTNet is, to the 6 best of your knowledge? 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, objection on 8 relevancy grounds. We're going very far afield. 9 THE COURT: Well, I don't know where we're 10 going to go, so if it's not relevant, I'll throw it 11 out. 12 A FACTNet stands -- let's see if I can remember. I 13 think it stands for something -- Fact stands for Fight 14 Against Coercive Tactics, something like that. It's a 15 anticult group. And it was an organization that my client, 16 Lawrence Wollersheim, was very heavily involved in. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q All right. 19 (A discussion was held off the record.) 20 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, may I make -- 21 THE COURT: You can't hear it when we say 22 something here, can you? 23 THE WITNESS: No. 24 THE COURT: In other words, if we're trying to 25 cut you off because an objection is made, that's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 35 1 part of the problem with the telephone. 2 THE WITNESS: That's fine. I'll -- 3 THE COURT: So -- 4 THE WITNESS: -- wait patiently. 5 THE COURT: So if you'll listen real carefully, 6 if you hear something in the background that sounds 7 like objection, if you'll stop, that would be 8 appreciated. 9 THE WITNESS: All right. 10 (A discussion was held off the record.) 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Mr. Leipold, not asking any privileged 13 information. 14 Did Mr. Minton make any unsolicited offers of 15 donations of funds or tender of funds for use in the 16 litigation involving you and Mr. Wollersheim? 17 A At the time of these conversations? 18 Q At any time. 19 A Well, I -- I don't know if they were unsolicited. 20 You're talking about in the litigation that I was handling? 21 Q Yes, sir. 22 A No. I don't -- 23 Well, no. Huh-uh. 24 Q Did Mr. Minton provide any money to you for that 25 case? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 36 1 A No. 2 Q All right. Has he provided any money for 3 litigation involving the Church of Scientology or any of its 4 affiliates, to your knowledge? 5 A No. 6 Q I'm talking about Mr. Minton providing any money. 7 A Mr. Minton has never given me any money to 8 litigate any case involving the Church of Scientology other 9 than Mr. Minton did become a director of FACTNet. I did 10 defend FACTNet. And I was paid for defending FACTNet. 11 Q All right. Do you know of cases involving 12 Mr. Minton and the Church of Scientology -- again, not 13 asking any privileged information -- but are you aware of 14 cases where Mr. Minton has been named as a party by the 15 Church of Scientology in other litigation? 16 THE COURT: Why do we have to ask this witness 17 that? Is there not some witness to come into court 18 live, where I don't have to worry with -- with cross 19 examination over a telephone? 20 MR. LIROT: Yes. That's -- 21 THE COURT: Then don't ask him that question. 22 MR. LIROT: Very good. 23 THE COURT: He really should be asked about 24 this letter and then we just ought to move on to 25 something else where we have witnesses here in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 37 1 courtroom. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. Are you aware of Mr. Minton ever 4 creating any documents for -- for any funds he may have 5 provided in any case involving the Church of Scientology 6 regarding a loan or in any way being paid back or working 7 out some particulars regarding the supply of funds in cases 8 involving the Church of Scientology? 9 A I'm going to have to ask you to ask that question 10 over. I missed the first part of it. 11 Q Do you know that Mr. Minton has prepared any 12 documents regarding any funds he may have provided in cases 13 involving the Church of Scientology? 14 A Yeah. I've seen a second affidavit that was filed 15 in, I believe, the McPherson case. 16 Q All right. In any other cases, has he prepared 17 any documents or agreements or any contractual type of -- 18 I'll just say paperwork involving funds he's provided. 19 A No, not that I can think of. 20 Q Does Mr. Minton look to be highly formalistic in 21 the way he provides funds regarding cases involving the 22 Church of Scientology? 23 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 24 A I'm sorry. 25 THE COURT: Wait. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 38 1 A I don't know. I'm not sure what that means. 2 MR. HERTZBERG: That was my objection. 3 A I -- I'm not sure what it means. I apologize. 4 (Simultaneous speakers.) 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q Has he ever given you a note? 8 A Pardon? 9 Q Have you seen or do you know of any -- I mean, I 10 don't know whether you know of any instances, so if you 11 don't, this question should not even be asked of you. 12 THE COURT: He obviously said it didn't happen 13 in his case. 14 BY THE COURT: 15 Q So are you aware of any other case where 16 Mr. Minton provided funds, other than this case, to 17 litigate, for lack of a better word, against Scientology as 18 a big worldwide organization? 19 A Big worldwide organization? 20 Q Well, that's -- 21 A I know he did find -- he did supply funds 22 specifically to fund the defense of the FactNet case. I do 23 know that. 24 Q Any others? 25 A And -- and I have -- I have heard -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 39 1 Do you want personal knowledge? 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Please. 5 A I've heard that he's -- that he's -- he's provided 6 funds in the McPherson case. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection. 8 A But that's not personal knowledge. 9 MR. HERTZBERG: Hearsay. 10 THE COURT: Don't need to object. We know 11 that. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Has -- has he loaned money to you or your firm? 14 A Yes, he has. 15 Q And can you tell us how much money he has loaned 16 to you or your firm? 17 A I couldn't tell you exactly, but I believe the -- 18 the total amount that he's loaned us is somewhere in the 19 area of around $350,000. 20 Q All right. And what type of documentation would 21 reflect any agreement or payback regarding that loan? 22 A There is a loan agreement. 23 Q All right. And -- 24 A I don't know if the loan agreement covers the 25 entire amount, but there is a loan agreement. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 40 1 Q All right. Is it a standard loan agreement? 2 A You know, I -- I can't quite say what a standard 3 loan agreement is, but there is a loan agreement. 4 Q All right. 5 A I don't think it's anything out of the ordinary. 6 Q All right. Does it require you to pay back the 7 full amount or does it leave some discretion to paying back 8 Mr. Minton? 9 A Discretion. No. I don't think there's any 10 discretion. 11 Q All right. 12 A I haven't seen -- I haven't looked at the loan 13 agreement in probably four years, but I -- I certainly don't 14 believe there's any discretion to pay it back. 15 THE COURT: I don't want any guessing here, 16 so -- 17 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not guessing, your 18 Honor. I haven't seen the loan agreement in four 19 years. But I feel confident that there is -- I have 20 no recollection of there being any discretion 21 involved. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q All right. I'm going to ask one question 24 cautiously. Have -- have any of the conversations that 25 you've had with Ms. Brooks or Ms. Minton -- Mr. Minton -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 41 1 been related to your representation of them in any 2 litigation? 3 A Well, obviously, some of the conversations I have 4 had -- many of the conversations I have had over the years 5 are privileged. However, I think if you're asking about the 6 recent conversations, no. 7 Q And are they parties in the Wollershiem case? 8 A No. 9 Q What was your reaction to their request that it be 10 dismissed? 11 MR. HERTZBERG: Objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Overruled. 13 MR. HERTZBERG: This goes into -- 14 A They're not parties to the case. 15 MR. HERTZBERG: This goes into the substance. 16 A I can't have somebody come in and tell me to 17 dismiss the case -- 18 MR. HERTZBERG: This -- 19 A -- for a client. 20 MR. HERTZBERG: -- goes into the substance of 21 this letter, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: The question was, what was his 23 reaction? 24 THE WITNESS: My reaction was no, I can't do 25 that. It's unethical. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 42 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Would they have any standing to 3 require you to dismiss that case? 4 A Absolutely not. 5 Q All right. And just one question about the loan. 6 Is there any -- is there an interest payment on the loan 7 from Mr. Minton? 8 A Yes, there is. 9 MR. LIROT: All right. Very good. 10 I have no further questions. 11 THE COURT: You may inquire. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I'm not going to -- 13 I want to withhold going into any examination on the 14 substance of the events recited in the letter 15 because I don't want to waive any privilege -- 16 THE COURT: All right. 17 MR. HERTZBERG: -- that might be asserted by 18 counsel for Ms. Brooks or Mr. Minton. 19 THE COURT: All right. Counselor, can you hear 20 me? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: If we have a -- we may get back 23 with you regarding the substance of the conversation 24 between me and Ms. Brooks -- you and Ms. Brooks. 25 The problem we have here is Ms. Brooks is not here; Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 43 1 her lawyer is not here. While you have said it is 2 not privileged, they may think differently. If they 3 do, I really need to hear them before we ask you 4 what the substance was. 5 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 6 THE COURT: If I rule that it's not privileged, 7 we'll be calling you back so that you can tell us. 8 If I rule that it is privileged and they wish to 9 uphold the privilege, then we won't be calling you 10 back, most likely. 11 THE WITNESS: That's fine. 12 Your Honor, I am currently in my house, because 13 it's 7:00 on the west coast. 14 THE COURT: We appreciate -- 15 THE WITNESS: I will be in my office later on 16 today. 17 THE COURT: Right. Thank you. 18 THE WITNESS: And Mr. Dandar has my number. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. 20 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Wait. We have some questions from 22 counsel. 23 And if you'll introduce yourself and tell 24 him -- 25 MR. HERTZBERG: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 44 1 THE COURT: -- who you represent. 2 CROSS EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 4 Q Mr. Leipold, my name is Michael Hertzberg. 5 A I know you well, Mr. Hertzberg. 6 Q You testified about a loan that you received from 7 Mr. Minton. And I believe that was a loan that was given to 8 you or your law firm in May of 1998, correct? 9 A That sounds about right. 10 Q Right. 11 Now, the purpose of the loan was to enable you to 12 form a new law firm at that time, correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q And that law firm is Leipold, Donohue and Shipe. 15 A Yes. 16 Q Is that right? That's where you currently 17 practice. 18 A No. 19 Q Does that firm not exist anymore? 20 A I -- under that name it does not exist anymore. 21 Q Well, what is your -- what is your current firm? 22 A Leipold and Shipe. 23 Q All right. And prior to the formation of the firm 24 of Leipold, Donohue and Shipe, you practiced at a firm named 25 Carpenter and Murphy, is that correct? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 45 1 A No. 2 Q What is the name of the firm that you were at? 3 A Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 4 Q I'm sorry. Hagenbaugh. And Murphy? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Now the purpose of the loan from Mr. Minton was to 7 enable you to form a new practice that could concentrate on 8 litigation in opposition to Scientology, isn't that right? 9 A No. 10 Q I -- I have a letter in my hand dated May 28th, 11 1998 on the Higgenbow (phonetic) and Murphy stationery -- 12 A That's Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 13 Q Hagenbaugh. 14 -- with your signature, Daniel A. Leipold, and 15 your signature at the end. And I'm going to read to you 16 from the first paragraph: "Dear Bob, this is re loan to law 17 firm of Leipold, Donohue and Shipe. I appreciate your 18 commitment to me and my partners and your generosity in 19 allowing us to continue our work in opposition to 20 Scientology." 21 Your words. Does that refresh your recollection 22 that -- 23 A Well, it -- 24 Q -- the purpose -- 25 A -- refreshes my recollection, but it isn't the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 46 1 reason we -- we got the loan. Certainly, this allowed us to 2 continue to -- to do litigation, but the purpose of the firm 3 was to do general litigation, including litigation against 4 the Church of Scientology. And it was not solely to fund 5 the firm to do litigation against the Church of Scientology. 6 Q All right. I -- my question, as I recall, was not 7 whether that was the sole purpose. 8 But the purpose -- you will agree with me then 9 that the purpose of the loan -- which was for $180,000, 10 correct? You remember that? 11 A Well, okay. Can you re-ask the question in a more 12 intelligible manner? 13 Q All right. 14 THE COURT: I don't need that, Counselor. 15 THE WITNESS: I apologize. But I don't 16 understand the question. 17 THE COURT: Well, I understand that. I do 18 understand -- 19 THE WITNESS: Rephrase it; I'll answer the 20 question. 21 THE COURT: I do understand that, and I 22 appreciate your appearing by phone, but I'm frankly 23 quite tired of lawyers calling other lawyers names 24 and what have you. 25 THE WITNESS: I didn't call him a name. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 47 1 THE COURT: You said he didn't ask a very 2 intelligent question. 3 THE WITNESS: I -- no, I said unintelligible. 4 THE COURT: I apologize. I thought you said 5 "unintelligent." 6 THE WITNESS: No, no, no, no. Unintelligible. 7 THE COURT: Intelligible. All right. 8 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 9 Q At the time you wrote this letter to Mr. Minton 10 thanking him for his agreement to loan the money, you were 11 entering into an agreement to receive $180,000 from 12 Mr. Minton, correct? 13 A That's correct. 14 Q And it was to be an initial payment of 80,000, 15 correct? 16 A I'm not sure. 17 Q All right. And in this letter, you went on to 18 discuss with Mr. Minton the fact that it was appreciated 19 that this loan was coming at that particular time, because 20 there was some tension in your -- in your present firm, that 21 Higgenbaugh and Murphy firm, about the direction that you 22 and your new partners were going to take with respect to the 23 focus of your practice, isn't that right? 24 THE COURT: How's come -- 25 I got a question. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 48 1 A Well, gee -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a second, sir. Wait a second. 3 How's come it is that you're asking questions 4 here about conversations between him and Mr. Minton? 5 You just went bananas about a privilege. I don't 6 want you asking questions about that either. 7 Is this a letter between him and Mr. Minton? 8 MR. HERTZBERG: Well, this is in the time 9 period, your Honor -- 10 THE COURT: Is this a communication? 11 MR. HERTZBERG: It is -- it is a letter -- it 12 is. But your Honor allowed -- allowed him to talk 13 about the fact that he got this loan. And I -- if 14 that came in -- I mean, I made an objection 15 generally to this line. But if that came in, I have 16 to be able to ask him about it, it seems to me. 17 THE COURT: All right. Were you representing 18 Mr. Minton at this time? 19 THE WITNESS: At what time? 20 THE COURT: At the time of the letter. 21 Read the date of the letter. 22 MR. HERTZBERG: May 28th, 1998. 23 THE COURT: May 28th. 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: 1998. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 49 1 THE WITNESS: No. 2 THE COURT: Okay. Go ahead. 3 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 4 Q Isn't it a fact, sir, that your partners at the 5 Higgenbow and Murphy firm -- 6 A Hagenbaugh and Murphy. 7 Q Hagenbow - Hagenbaum (phonetic) -- 8 A Hagenbaugh. 9 Q Well -- 10 THE COURT: Hagenbaugh. 11 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 12 Q -- isn't it a fact, sir, that your partners at the 13 Hagenbow and Murphy firm were concerned that you and several 14 of your other partners were focusing too much on Scientology 15 litigation? 16 A I wouldn't phrase it that way. I think that there 17 was some concern at my firm that Scientology overlitigates 18 cases and uses abusive litigation tactics. 19 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I move to strike as 20 nonresponsive. 21 A And the concern -- 22 THE COURT: You asked the question. 23 A -- was that this would affect the overall 24 performance of the firm. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 50 1 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 2 Q All right. 3 A These abusive tactics. 4 Q All right. Well, you nonetheless, then, entered 5 into a new partnership with -- with other partners, and you 6 used the funds that Mr. Minton provided you to begin that 7 firm, correct? 8 A Could you repeat the question? 9 Q You nonetheless entered into your new partnership 10 and used the funds provided by Mr. Minton in that loan to 11 conduct the work of the partnership, correct? 12 A Certainly. 13 Q All right. And the work of the partnership 14 involved, in the ensuing years, several matters in court 15 where either Scientology entities or individual 16 Scientologists were parties, correct? 17 A It included that, yes. 18 Q And in fact, you then later got a significant 19 further amount of money from Mr. Minton, didn't you? 20 A Yes. 21 Q In excess of $450,000, sir? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. How much more money would you estimate 24 that you got from Mr. Minton? 25 A Well, it depends on what you mean by got. Do you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 51 1 mean loaned or do you mean received? 2 Q I will ask both parts. 3 First of all, how much further money did 4 Mr. Minton loan you beyond the initial $180,000? 5 A I think probably roughly the total amount, 6 including that $180,000, would be around 360. 7 Q Okay. And beyond the loans, did he not furnish 8 you with further funds? 9 A Well, he paid me for work done. 10 Q Right. And he paid you for work done in those 11 cases involving Scientology entities and individuals, 12 correct? 13 A Well, as far as I knew, those were the only people 14 that were harassing him legally -- 15 Q You know -- 16 A -- but yes. 17 Q -- that question just asked for a yes or no 18 answer. 19 A Well, no, it didn't, but that's okay. 20 Q And you have testified that in those cases -- 21 By the way, have you paid back any portion of the 22 money that was loaned to you by Mr. Minton up to now? 23 A Yes. 24 Q A very inconsequential portion of that amount. 25 THE COURT: Really, Counselor. I'm just not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 52 1 going to let you go there. We're here today to do a 2 very limited thing. They put this guy on to see 3 whether or not he was loaned any money. He said he 4 was. If you dispute that, get into it. If you 5 don't dispute that, what all this is about, I have 6 no idea, but I want it ended pretty quick. 7 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 8 Q Now, in those cases we just alluded to -- 9 A I'm sorry. You're going have to talk more 10 directly into the phone. 11 Q In the cases you just alluded to -- 12 A I didn't allude to any cases. 13 Q We're talking generally about Scientology cases. 14 A All right. 15 Q You knew Stacy Brooks, Vaughn Young and Jesse 16 Prince as affiants, correct? 17 A I didn't understand the last part of what you 18 said. 19 Q You used those witnesses' affidavits -- 20 THE COURT: He already said he did. 21 MR. DANDAR: Judge, he needs to get closer and 22 not move around too much. 23 THE COURT: We don't need to hear questions 24 that were already asked and agreed to. He said 25 that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 53 1 BY MR. HERTZBERG: 2 Q Now, Mr. Minton also lent a large amount of money 3 to Mr. Wollersheim, did he not? 4 A Mr. Minton did what? 5 Q He lent a rather significant amount of money to 6 Larry Wollersheim, did he not? 7 A I think he lent some money to FACTNet. 8 Q Didn't he also lend a large amount of money to 9 Mr. Larry Wollersheim, your client in the California action? 10 A I'm not sure that he did. 11 Q Are you aware of the fact, sir, that Mr. Minton 12 has made a UCC filing with a lien against any proceeds that 13 would be recovered by Mr. Wollersheim, your client in the 14 Los Angeles case? 15 A Yes. But I'm not sure that that's the secure loan 16 to Wollersheim. 17 Q But you are aware that there is such a lien. 18 A Oh, yes. 19 Q And you had an involvement -- you've had 20 involvement in the case here in Florida, have you not, in 21 various capacities? 22 THE COURT: What -- we're going to have to 23 stop. What is it you're trying to accomplish by -- 24 A What cases? 25 THE COURT: Excuse me. Stop, if you will. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 54 1 What is it you're trying to accomplish? They 2 put this man on -- I don't know what's in the letter 3 because I haven't had a chance to read it -- to say 4 that Mr. Minton loaned them some money. I think he 5 was trying to establish that he loaned him some 6 money without documents. That failed. So we're 7 down to, he loaned them some money. 8 Now, do you dispute that? And if you dispute 9 they loaned him some money -- 10 MR. HERTZBERG: No, I don't. 11 THE COURT: -- get into that. 12 MR. HERTZBERG: No. 13 THE COURT: But otherwise, you are gone well 14 beyond the purpose of this hearing. And I can't 15 wait for people to object, because this hearing is 16 before me, and we're not going there. I don't care 17 about all this. 18 MR. HERTZBERG: What I want to show now -- I 19 want to -- 20 THE COURT: What is it you're trying to show? 21 That he's lying about giving money? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: No. No. I'm in a new area 23 now, Judge Schaeffer. 24 THE COURT: Well, what about? 25 MR. HERTZBERG: I want to show -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 55 1 THE COURT: Then you call him in your case. 2 You're well beyond the scope. It's just that 3 simple. We're not going to have it. This is not 4 going to be an hour and a half on a witness that has 5 testified he got some money from Mr. Minton. 6 MR. HERTZBERG: I -- let me just make a 7 proffer. 8 THE COURT: No. We're not going to make a 9 proffer. You're going to call him in your case. 10 It's just that simple. You're well beyond the 11 scope. I can't wait around for counsel to object. 12 You're taking a lot of my time. I've got four days 13 to do this and I plan to get it done. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: All right, Judge Schaeffer. I 15 will reserve the right. 16 THE COURT: To call him in your case. 17 MR. HERTZBERG: In my case. And also to 18 further -- after the privilege issue is sorted out, 19 I have some very specific questions to ask him, if 20 he's allowed to -- 21 THE COURT: I don't need to hear this and he 22 doesn't need to hear it. Do you have any more 23 questions about the loan? 24 MR. HERTZBERG: No, I don't. 25 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, sir. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 56 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. I 2 appreciate it. 3 THE COURT: Now you may call your next witness. 4 This letter, I presume, is authenticated. 5 We'll deal with it later. 6 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 7 Judge, I'd like to call Kennan Dandar. 8 THE COURT: And Counselor, maybe you don't care 9 how long this takes, but I do. There's no jury 10 here. There is no jury here. There's no reason for 11 you not to object to things that are beyond the 12 scope, repetitive, asked and answered and on and on. 13 MR. HERTZBERG: Judge, I -- 14 THE COURT: You're not going to offend me by 15 your objections. 16 I can't, quite frankly, imagine that we're 17 going to go on and on and on and on and on, like 18 what happened up in Clearwater, because I'm not 19 going to have it, and I'm going to expect you to do 20 some objecting here, unless you just curiously like 21 to hear the same thing four or five times. 22 MR. HERTZBERG: No, Judge. Please -- please 23 don't let my politeness be perceived as any failure 24 to object. 25 THE COURT: Well, it is, and I saw it over and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 57 1 over and over in Clearwater, and I thought perhaps 2 you were being polite. You don't need to be polite 3 to me. I'm not going to be polite to you, beyond 4 what's required. 5 I want this chase to proceed. I want us to get 6 done with these witnesses. 7 MR. HERTZBERG: Very good, your Honor. 8 _______________________________________ 9 KENNAN DANDAR, 10 the witness herein, being first duly sworn, was examined 11 and testified as follows: 12 THE COURT: You may proceed. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Please state your name, and spell your last name 15 for the record, sir. 16 A Kennan, K-e-n-n-a-n, Dandar, D-a-n-d-a-r. 17 Q And can you -- 18 THE COURT: Let me -- let me ask you this. You 19 have, still, cross examination of what they had put 20 him on for in their case. You want to put him on 21 and not only cross examine him about that but 22 actually go ahead, since they don't have their next 23 witness here until the afternoon, I take it? 24 MR. FUGATE: Judge, as I understand what 25 Mr. McGowan said, he would have her here in the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 58 1 afternoon. 2 THE COURT: So the answer to my question is 3 that's right -- 4 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 5 THE COURT: -- you have no witness -- 6 Thank you. 7 Then if you would like to put him on out of 8 order, since we have -- it's 10:30. I have no 9 objection, if they don't have any objection, to them 10 calling him as if, when you rested, they would call 11 him. 12 Is that okay? 13 MR. LIROT: I think that's an efficient way to 14 get it done, Judge. 15 THE COURT: If you want to. 16 MR. WIENBERG: That's fine with us. 17 THE COURT: Does that make sense? 18 MR. WIENBERG: It makes sense. 19 THE COURT: I mean, if you're ready to do that. 20 MR. LIROT: I'm ready, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Let's just go ahead and assume that 22 part of this is cross examination and part of this 23 is your case and you call him as your witness. 24 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. And I'll move 25 expeditiously. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 59 1 THE COURT: Well, I suppose this is a very 2 important part of your case. But you -- you are 3 either going to be confined to the cross or you're 4 not. And I think now what we realize is you can go 5 ahead beyond the scope of that redirect and -- as if 6 you were putting him on for whatever purpose you 7 wanted to put him on related to this proceeding. 8 MR. LIROT: Excellent. Thank you, Judge. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Mr. Dandar, you came at some point to represent 11 the estate of Lisa McPherson, did you not? 12 A Yes, I did. 13 Q And can you tell the court how that evolved? 14 A That evolved when I received a phone call from 15 the -- Ann Carlson, to call her. And I did. And she told 16 me about the Lisa McPherson death; and if I would come to 17 Dallas, Texas and meet with her and her sisters to talk 18 about it. And I said, "Sure. I'm on my way --" I happened 19 to be on my way to California the following week -- I think 20 it was the following week to take a deposition in San Diego 21 with a -- a layover in Dallas. 22 I got there, I met Dell Liebreich, I met Ann 23 Carlson. I extended my layover. I drove over and met Fanny 24 McPherson. I stayed at her house for three or four hours, 25 talking with her, while she was on oxygen, and had her sign Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 60 1 a retainer agreement. And Dell Liebreich signed the 2 retainer agreement. And then I went on to San Diego. 3 Q Was your discussion with Fanny McPherson relative 4 to your representation of the estate in this matter? 5 A Yes, it was. We talked -- 6 THE COURT: The estate? Maybe she knew she was 7 dying. Is that -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: She was on Hospice care and she 11 in fact died five days later. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q And after that, did you file a complaint in this 14 action? 15 A Yes. When I got back, we prepared the estate 16 papers for Lisa McPherson and Federal Expressed them over 17 and they came back signed. And the ones that needed to be 18 notarized were notarized; the ones that just had a signature 19 page of Fanny McPherson and Dell Liebreich were properly 20 filled out. 21 We filed it with the probate court, got letters of 22 administration, and then in February, we filed the wrongful 23 death suit. 24 Q Okay. Now, at the time you filed the original 25 complaint in this action, had you done any extensive Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 61 1 discovery or presuit investigation about the Church of 2 Scientology or any of the other issues that later arose in 3 the case? 4 A No. I didn't know anything about the Church of 5 Scientology. You know, I knew they were located in the 6 Ft. Harrison Hotel in downtown Clearwater; I knew they had 7 naval -- blue naval uniforms; they walked between the 8 buildings, up and down the street, and that's it. And they 9 had a sprinkle of some Hollywood stars. 10 Q All right. Did -- not to ask any privileged 11 questions, but did Fanny McPherson or anybody that you spoke 12 to in that presuit discussion -- did they know anything 13 about the Church of Scientology? 14 A Oh, they did. Fanny McPherson called them a cult. 15 Fanny McPherson was extremely upset that they had killed her 16 daughter. Her surviving child. And she wanted me and made 17 me promise to pursue them and expose them for what they did 18 to Lisa McPherson and to bring all responsible parties into 19 court. 20 Q All right. Did they know anything, actually, 21 about the inner workings of the church? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. And at that point in time, did you 24 know Robert Minton? 25 A No. Not at all. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 62 1 Q So you filed the original complaint, and then 2 after that, you engaged in discovery. 3 A Well, I filed the original complaint, and I got 4 bombarded with -- people called me up, wanted -- they found 5 out about it -- and people claiming to be former 6 Scientologists and people being critics of Scientology. And 7 then I just conducted discovery. 8 Q All right. And did those telephone calls guide 9 you in any way in any of the questions or the way you framed 10 your discovery requests? 11 A Well, those -- well, it did help with discovery, 12 but it also led me to meet Vaughn Young and his wife at that 13 time, Stacy Young, who is now Stacy Brooks. And I flew to 14 Seattle and met with them to discuss what this was all 15 about, Scientology. 16 Q Can you tell the court who Vaughn Young and Stacy 17 Brooks were, to your knowledge, at that point in time? 18 A Well, when I met them, I got a history on both of 19 them. Both Vaughn and Stacy worked for OSA. At the time it 20 was called the guardian's office. It was the legal/dirty 21 tricks, undercover work -- 22 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Sustained. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm just saying what they told 25 me. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 63 1 THE COURT: Well, that is not what they called 2 it, so -- OSA is not called "dirty tricks," I don't 3 suppose. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, he told me what they -- 5 what they did. 6 THE COURT: Well, that's -- 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 MR. WIENBERG: Well, then also objection to 9 hear- -- at some point -- I know that this isn't a 10 trial, but at some point I'm objecting to hearsay 11 too. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Just -- who did you understand Vaughn Young and 15 Stacy Brooks to be at that point in time? 16 A Well, Vaughn Young was the public relations person 17 for the mother church, as far as I can remember now. 18 EXAMINATION 19 BY THE COURT: 20 Q At the time you -- 21 I'm sorry, Mr. Dandar -- 22 A No. 23 Q At the time you talked to him, he was that? 24 A No. He had been out of -- as a member of the 25 Church of Scientology for quite some time. And I couldn't Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 64 1 possibly tell you when that was. Stacy Brooks, his wife, 2 was also out of the Church of Scientology at that time. 3 And they just started to educate me immediately 4 about the Church of Scientology. They started to tell me 5 the structure of the hierarchy, who controls it, who has the 6 power to do things. And also, they had known somehow about 7 the death of Lisa McPherson, so they started to tell me 8 about what possibly she had -- may have been going through 9 that led to her death. Because Stacy Brooks had personal 10 knowledge of what is known as the introspection rundown. 11 She has been involved with people who were psychotic and she 12 was there taking care of them, to the extent possible, as 13 part of the introspection rundown. 14 Q She was explaining that procedure to you at that 15 time? 16 A She was -- yeah. You know, this is like all new 17 to me. And so I just -- 18 But the interesting part about it is that Stacy 19 Brooks really didn't want to be involved at all in the case. 20 She said she was burned out on being involved in litigation. 21 But Vaughn Young, who is a very intelligent individual, 22 highly educated -- I'm going to say he has a PhD, but right 23 now I can't remember. I think when he joined the Church of 24 Scientology he was going for his PhD -- and he just had a 25 wealth of information. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 65 1 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. You state that it -- you believed 4 Stacy Young to be burned out -- Stacy Brooks, I'm sorry -- 5 to be burned out. Were you aware of her participation in 6 other litigation involving the Church of Scientology? 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry. I know you all are 8 going to just hate me, but I'm trying to learn as 9 much about what's happening here so I can better 10 understand things. 11 EXAMINATION 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q You said Vaughn Young -- did it used to be Stacy 14 Young because they were married? 15 A Yes. 16 Q They divorced? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And so she's taken back her maiden name? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. So Stacy Young and Stacy Brooks are really 21 one and the same people. 22 A Yes. 23 Q Good. 24 A Yes. 25 THE COURT: All right. I'm learning something. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 66 1 A So -- I believe that was sometime in -- I'm going 2 to guess -- March of '97; about two months after I filed the 3 suit or thereabouts, give or take. And then I met them 4 again in the summer of '97. This is all before I ever heard 5 the name of Robert Minton. 6 But it turns out, when I finally -- 7 Well, I'm just rambling on. I'll stop. 8 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Well, okay. In December of '97, you met with them 11 again. And can you tell the court how that impacted the 12 progress of this action? 13 A Well, what had -- what had been going on is that I 14 had my original complaint that I filed, which I filed like a 15 normal wrongful death complaint because all I knew is what I 16 read in the papers and what I saw on Joan Wood's interview 17 on TV, and I didn't know anything about the Church of 18 Scientology whatsoever. 19 And over those months that I first contacted 20 Vaughn Young and Stacy, they -- Vaughn Young was 21 continuously giving me information, trying to educate me on 22 the practices of the Church of Scientology, their history, 23 their criminal history in breaking into the FBI building and 24 the state department -- 25 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 67 1 A -- which he was intimately -- 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 A -- involved with -- 4 MR. WIENBERG: Your Honor, my real objection is 5 this isn't really a question and answer; it's just 6 a -- 7 THE COURT: I agree with you. 8 MR. LIROT: I'll tighten it up, Judge. 9 THE COURT: You need to answer, and then you 10 need to explain if you need to. And you may do 11 that. But you, I'm going to tell the same thing as 12 I mentioned to previous counsel. This is a hearing 13 to determine whether or not there is a reason to 14 dismiss the complaint; this is a reason to determine 15 whether or not there has been a fraud on the court 16 therefore; and whether or not this lawyer committed 17 acts of perjury, fraud and what have you that would 18 allow me or require me or have me exercise my 19 discretion in such a fashion to dismiss him from the 20 case regarding the wrongful death. That's what this 21 is about. 22 MR. LIROT: Understood. 23 THE COURT: This is not about the whole history 24 of the case; this is not why the lawsuit was filed 25 the way it is. That has nothing to do with it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 68 1 There are issues here -- seems like there were 2 three. They identified the three yesterday. I 3 think they're right. I think those are the issues. 4 The question is, what about those issues; what do we 5 need to know about those issues? 6 And obviously, if you have to go somewhere else 7 to have me understand some of this, I do understand 8 that and that's permissible. 9 Now we're saying, well, he filed the first 10 complaint and how it went on -- you know, that's not 11 important or relevant, and I'm not -- you know, as I 12 said, my time's limited. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand your time is limited, 14 Judge. And if I could just seek some guidance from 15 the court, it was my understanding that opposing 16 counsel made accusations to the effect that the 17 complaint was amended to try to bring down the 18 church or something along those lines, and I -- 19 THE COURT: Okay. All right. I see where 20 you're -- what you're saying. Yes, that was, and 21 yes, I said that could be important, so -- 22 MR. WIENBERG: But that wasn't -- the main 23 complaint was in 1999, but -- 24 THE COURT: Well, I think what he's suggesting 25 is he needs to get there, so -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 69 1 MR. WIENBERG: Go ahead. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. WIENBERG: I just ask for questions and 4 answers. 5 THE WITNESS: Judge, if you want, just let me 6 tell you what happened and -- 7 THE COURT: Yeah. Maybe we could tell us how 8 we got up to the fifth complaint -- I mean, some of 9 it, I know. 10 MR. LIROT: Could we expedite it with a 11 narrative? 12 THE COURT: Yes. 13 MR. LIROT: It's -- 14 THE WITNESS: I'll be quick. 15 THE COURT: I'm going to let him expedite this 16 with a narrative as to how we got to the present 17 complaint without going into the legalistics of it. 18 A Okay. So Vaughn Young was helping me draft the 19 allegations of the complaint that concerned not the legal 20 requirements of a complaint, but the factual basis of the 21 complaint. Stacy Brooks, or Stacy Young at the time -- she 22 was, you know, just there. She would talk to me once in a 23 great while. But she would consult and -- if I asked her a 24 question. But she really -- again, it was Vaughn Young that 25 spent most of the time. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 70 1 So when I got his drafts in the summer of '97, I 2 went back up there, got educated some more on Scientology 3 hierarchy, Scientology introspection rundown. 4 And the big question in my mind was, why would 5 this woman die like this? And he started to fill me in. 6 And I don't want to say what he said, because that's 7 privileged. 8 So -- and again, at this time, I had never met or 9 heard of Robert Minton. And the only defendant at that 10 time, in the summer of '97, was the corporate defendant. I 11 had no knowledge -- well, I may have started acquiring 12 knowledge of the individuals through discovery -- 13 THE COURT: I'm looking at your first 14 complaint. It does have defendant, Church of 15 Scientology d/b/a Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization, Inc. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. That's as much as I knew. 18 I mean, I didn't know -- 19 A So anyway, in reference to Robert Minton, I 20 received an interrogatory from the Church of Scientology and 21 said, "Has Robert Minton given you any money? If so, how 22 much?" And this is while we were over in Tampa. 23 And so I went on the Internet. And I was a novice 24 at the Internet. And I said, "Who in the world is Robert 25 Minton and why do they think --" and I think they even had Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 71 1 in the interrogatory a hundred thousand dollars. I think. 2 I'm not sure. The record will speak for itself. I said, 3 "Who's Robert Minton? Why does the Church of Scientology 4 think they -- he has given me any money?" Because up until 5 that time, I heard accusations from the church that the 6 Clearwater Police Department gave you money; the German 7 government gave you money -- 8 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 MR. WIENBERG: Well, I don't know what the 11 question is. 12 MR. LIROT: It's a narrative to expedite the 13 creation of the fifth amended complaint. 14 A So I got on the Internet, said, "Who's Robert 15 Minton?" And the next thing, within a few days, Robert 16 Minton -- a person calls me up and says, "I'm Robert 17 Minton." I said, "Well, you know, why do they think you 18 gave me money?" And he told me Elliott Abelson, the general 19 counsel for the Church of Scientology in California, 20 their -- you know, their main general counsel, Elliott 21 Abelson, had a telephone call with Robert Minton either in 22 September or August of '97, accusing him of funding. And I 23 have -- I even have a letter from Elliott Abelson to Robert 24 Minton somewhere -- accusing him of funding people who want 25 to sue the Church of Scientology, and warning him that the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 72 1 Church of Scientology would sue him for this and demand 2 great damages. 3 And he laughed that off, and he said, "I'd like to 4 send you some money. Since they think it's such a terrible 5 idea, it must be a good idea. So I'll send you some money." 6 And I said, "Well, you know, I don't know who you are." He 7 said, "Well, you met me before. Not really, but I was in a 8 room in Clearwater at a motel during a picket or a 9 demonstration in March of '97, and you were sitting in the 10 room. I brought over bagels and coffee for Larry 11 Wollersheim." 'Cause I met him for the first time, and I 12 thought he was a wealth of information as well. And he was 13 the first person I contacted that was a wealth of 14 information. 15 And he -- Robert Minton told me, "I was sitting in 16 the motel room. I'm the guy that didn't say a word." And I 17 remember that. There was a guy in there that just sat there 18 and didn't say anything. Everyone else was talking to me 19 about the Church of Scientology. 20 So I said. "Fine. Before you send me any money, 21 let me call up the Florida Bar." Because no one -- in '97, 22 I'd been practicing law now since '79; no one's ever offered 23 to send me money on a case. Except my clients. 24 So I called up the Florida Bar. I said, "I have a 25 third party that wants to send me money. He's not my Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 73 1 client. What do I do?" 2 THE COURT: Who did you call? Was it -- was it 3 the hot line? 4 THE WITNESS: The hot line. The hot line. 5 A And they said, "As long as your client consents; 6 as long as there's no confidential information divulged 7 without your client's consent; and as long as he doesn't 8 control the litigation, you can do whatever you want to, if 9 he wants to send you money." 10 So I put that in the letter to Robert Minton later 11 on. 12 First he sent me the money. It was a hundred 13 thousand dollars. And he sent me a note, which is in the 14 exhibits filed with Judge Baird, and said, you know, "Here's 15 the money." 16 THE COURT: I think your letter -- I don't know 17 if your letter's in, but I know I saw some 18 documentation that was in before Judge Baird, and I 19 assume it's included. 20 THE WITNESS: I always called that letter a -- 21 ripped off in a Kleenex box, and that was -- 22 THE COURT: Oh, yeah. 23 THE WITNESS: -- incorrect. 24 THE COURT: I had that question. What is that? 25 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 74 1 THE COURT: -- that? I didn't see any Kleenex 2 box on the -- 3 THE WITNESS: What it is -- 4 THE COURT: -- box. 5 THE WITNESS: -- is the -- 6 Did we bring the original? No. 7 What it is is, it's a -- it's a card that has 8 printed on the top of it, "Robert Minton." And he 9 tore it. So it was torn. And I don't know why it 10 was torn. But it's all hand -- handwriting of his 11 on the front and then on the back. So it comes out 12 in the exhibit as two pages. 13 THE COURT: Okay. So when you speak of the 14 Kleenex box, that copy is what you're referring to. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: That's what was written on the 17 Kleenex box or on a -- a piece of cardboard. 18 THE WITNESS: It's a card. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Some kind of card or stationery 21 of some type. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 A So he said, "I'm going to send you a check for a 24 hundred thousand dollars, just to let you know that I'm for 25 real." And I thought I was being set up right then and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 75 1 there. I thought, "No one sends a check out for a hundred 2 thousand dollars." 3 So he sends the check. I deposit the check, I 4 wait, and it clears. And I said, "Well, this man's for 5 real." 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I guess I'll ask one question. Did you deposit 8 the check? 9 A Because I -- first time I ever heard of this and 10 heard of him, I deposited the check in my trust account. 11 And I went on litigating the case. By that time, 12 I had a great amount of money of my own already invested in 13 the case, 'cause I -- I was paying Vaughn Young; I was 14 hiring physicians to look at the case, to see why Lisa 15 McPherson died. 16 Did I answer all that? What was the question? 17 THE COURT: Why did you -- 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Why did you deposit it in your trust account? 20 A Oh. 21 That's why I deposited it in my trust account. 22 Because I didn't know who this guy was and I wanted to make 23 sure that was the right place to put it. It was made 24 payable to Dandar and Dandar, and my trust account is the 25 only account that we use to keep track of costs for cases on Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 76 1 each case. So it goes into the trust account. There's a 2 ledger. From the ledger, it goes into the computer billing 3 program. 4 Q So if the money was shady, you could send him back 5 a trust check. 6 A Shady? 7 Q Or if you had any concerns about the money. 8 A Well, if I had any concerns -- 9 Q Or the manner in which it was tendered. 10 A Yeah. I could send it back if something strange 11 happened. 12 Q So Mr. Minton provided that money and you called 13 the Florida Bar. Please continue for the court. 14 A All right. So after I called the Florida Bar, 15 after I had his money, I decided to send him a letter 16 outlining the rules that the Florida Bar quoted to me over 17 the ethics hot line, telling him the specifics; tell him I 18 had already called my client, who said she thought that was 19 wonderful that somebody was going to send me money. Because 20 it -- our arrangement was that I had to advance all the 21 money and not to look at them in the event I lost. All the 22 money was my responsibility. 23 THE COURT: Where is that letter? Did that 24 ever get into evidence -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 77 1 THE COURT: -- up in Clearwater? 2 MR. LIROT: That was introduced -- 3 THE COURT: Was that part of the exhibits -- 4 MR. LIROT: It was introduced before Judge 5 Baird. 6 THE COURT: Okay. I thought it had, but I'm 7 not sure. 8 THE WITNESS: It's an October 6th, '97 letter, 9 I believe. 10 THE COURT: Do you remember what number it was? 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm trying to find it right 12 now. 13 MR. WIENBERG: This is the letter to 14 Ms. Liebreich. Is that what you're -- 15 THE COURT: Basically stating he'll advance the 16 costs? 17 THE WITNESS: That's another letter. This is 18 the letter to Robert Minton -- 19 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: -- October, '97. 21 THE COURT: Oh. 22 THE WITNESS: There's a letter to Ms. Liebreich 23 that has nothing to do with Robert Minton; that just 24 confirms my first meeting with Dell Liebreich and 25 Fanny McPherson, where I -- I had them sign a form Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 78 1 contingency fee agreement, which says, "You're going 2 to pay the costs, win or lose --" 3 THE COURT: Did you try to get that in at the 4 hearing and you didn't get it in? 5 THE WITNESS: I defer to Mr. Lirot. I think 6 you might be right about that. 7 MR. FUGATE: Exhibit 9 is the letter you asked 8 about, Judge -- 9 THE COURT: Okay. Thanks. 10 MR. FUGATE: -- that went to Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: I seem to have -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, you want me to look for it? 13 THE COURT: No. I see. I've got -- I've got 14 two books. So let me go to 9 here. 15 Okay. I've got it. And I do remember seeing 16 it. Thanks. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. That's the letter to 18 Mr. Minton. 19 THE COURT: Right. 20 THE WITNESS: Okay. And that spells out the 21 particular Florida Bar rules that I was quoted and 22 instructed on how to handle this. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Did the Florida Bar tell you you had to write that 25 type of letter every time that you received money? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 79 1 A No. No. They just told me that it would be 2 better to put it in writing to make sure he understood that 3 he had no control and he wasn't getting any confidential 4 information unless my client agreed he could have 5 confidential information. 6 Q All right. Putting Mr. Minton aside for a moment, 7 could you continue your narrative to the court about your 8 progress of the complaint, and how we got to the fifth 9 amended complaint? 10 A All right. So as the -- more discovery took 11 place, I discovered that there were individuals who were 12 highly involved in the care and treatment of Lisa McPherson, 13 people who were in their medical liaison office, including 14 Janis Johnson and Mr. Houghton. Mr. Houghton, at that time, 15 was an unlicensed dentist. Well, at the time of Lisa 16 McPherson's stay at the hotel. 17 And then I found out about Alain Karduzinski. And 18 the file will reflect this, not my brain, but I can't 19 remember when I tried to take depositions. 20 But I also found out about Lisa McPherson's 21 employer, Bennetta Slaughter, causing her great emotional 22 distress during 1995. And I knew Lisa McPherson was 23 psychotic; she took her clothes off in the middle of the 24 street. So I also added her on. 25 And I added -- as a defendant. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 80 1 And I added Karduzinski, Janis Johnson and David 2 Houghton as defendants, and I also added Bennetta 3 Slaughter's company, AMC Publishing Company, where Lisa 4 McPherson worked. And this was because of all the 5 information I was gathering. 6 And if I had taken some depositions up to that 7 point in time, I really can't tell you that. 8 Q Did you know Bennetta Slaughter to have an 9 affiliation with the Church of Scientology in some way? 10 A Well, I knew that she and her husband were, like 11 Lisa McPherson, public members of the Church of Scientology. 12 I knew that the business was operated under Scientology 13 technology, known -- and it was also a member of the World 14 Institute of Scientology Enterprises with the acronym of 15 WISE. And I gathered all this information from January of 16 '97 until I filed the first amended complaint. 17 And the file will reflect when I filed the first 18 amended complaint. I can't remember. 19 THE COURT: The -- I'm looking at it myself, so 20 I have it. I'll make the record clear. It doesn't 21 have a date of filing, but it does have a date of 22 service of 4th of December, 1997, being delivered to 23 Morris Weinberg -- 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- and Laura Vaughn. Laura Vaughn? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 81 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Laura Vaughn. 2 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 3 THE COURT: Okay. And that is styled First 4 Amended Complaint, Demand for Trial by Jury. And at 5 this time, the defendants -- apparently the 6 plaintiffs stayed the same -- are Church of 7 Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc., Benetta 8 Slaughter, semicolon, Produx -- Prodex, Inc., a 9 Florida corporation, doing business as AMC 10 Publishing Company; Janis Johnson, MD; David 11 Minkoff, MD; Alain Karduzinski and David Houghton, 12 DDS. That's the style. And that's the date that it 13 was served. 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 THE COURT: That's the first amended complaint. 16 THE WITNESS: I forgot about David Minkoff, MD. 17 That's right. Okay. 18 A None of this had to do with Robert Minton. This 19 had to do with my own investigation. All my own 20 information-gathering, speaking with Vaughn Young -- 21 THE COURT: Okay. Let me -- 22 A -- putting this all together. 23 THE COURT: Let me -- if you will, let me read 24 this, because I've only ever read the fifth amended 25 complaint. And this could be important. And I know Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 82 1 this is a, you know, problem for you guys, that -- 2 but I can't keep up with this. I've got to do it 3 slow. So let me read this. 4 Plus, it seems like a good time for a break. 5 MR. LIROT: I was going to say, I've had a lot 6 of coffee. If you'd like to read it during a 7 break -- 8 THE COURT: All right. Let's do it. Let's 9 take a 20-minute break -- or -- no, 15 to 20. Watch 10 for me. I'll wait for you to come back. I'm going 11 to try to read all of these complaints. 12 MR. FUGATE: And I've got copies of the two 13 transcripts, which I'll give to Mr. Lirot to look 14 at. 15 THE COURT: Wonderful. 16 (A recess was taken.) 17 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't have a chance -- I 18 had a couple calls come in. I read most of what -- 19 the first amended complaint. Is that the one we're 20 on? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: I did not have a chance to read the 23 other, so -- 24 I forgot. I -- please remind me I've got a 25 conference call at noon on a committee that I chair. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 83 1 So I've got to be on the call. So we're going to 2 have to take a break at noon. 3 MR. LIROT: Very good. 4 THE COURT: Okay. And then what we're going to 5 do is interrupt, and let's take Ms. Brooks, so 6 that -- she probably is needing to tend to her 7 business, so -- 8 MR. LIROT: As you wish, Judge. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Mr. Dandar, before the break we were talking about 12 the progression and metamorphosis of what ultimately became 13 the fifth amended complaint in this action. I think we were 14 up to the first amended complaint. And do you recall about 15 what date you filed that? 16 THE COURT: I think I just told you that it was 17 dated the 4th of December of 1997. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. Thank you. 19 THE COURT: That's the date of service. So I 20 can only presume it was filed around the same time. 21 THE WITNESS: Right. And that was just before 22 the wrongful death statute of limitations of two 23 years. So prior to that, I was worried about, if I 24 needed to add on anyone else, I needed to do it at 25 that time, because the two-year statute was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 84 1 approaching. 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q Had you ever sat down and discussed anything with 5 Mr. Minton before you filed that? 6 A Not about this case, no. 7 Q No, I mean, had you had any conversations with 8 Mr. Minton where you sat down in a room and discussed this 9 case with him -- 10 A No. 11 Q -- before this date. 12 A No. No. 13 Q Okay. 14 A No. 15 Q You had obviously written a letter, I think, that 16 came before it; he sent you the hundred thousand -- 17 A I wrote that letter, that's right. 18 Q And did you have any face-to-face sit-down with 19 him before that? 20 A No, no. 21 Q Okay. 22 A In fact, that's leading up to this now. 23 That happens to be also the time that 24 Mr. Minton -- I believe he came -- well, I'm not sure he was 25 there. Let me think. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 85 1 I can't be sure. 2 Q All right. 3 A But there was a vigil on December 4th or 5th of 4 '97, for Lisa McPherson. And -- there had been several 5 vigils on December 5th of 19 -- December 5th of each year 6 except this last, 2001. I can't testify with certainty when 7 the first one was. 8 My contact for the vigil, though, was not Minton 9 or Stacy Brooks or anybody else except Jeff Jacobsen. Jeff 10 Jacobsen was a critic on the Internet for the Church of 11 Scientology. He was never a Scientologist, as far as I 12 know. And I received a lot of information from him, I 13 think, by telephone on -- and he was trying to help me. I 14 never hired him or anything. 15 But I had all this information; I had all this 16 discovery; I had these people that, if I needed to add on -- 17 And so the first amended complaint, I did add on 18 people. 19 And thereafter, you know, we had motion after 20 motion after motion to dismiss, dismiss, dismiss; technical 21 little things that were not quite right. And one that 22 stands out in my mind is that I didn't have an allegation in 23 there that Dell Liebreich had the consent of Fanny McPherson 24 to become the personal representative of the estate of Lisa 25 McPherson. So I said, "Sure." I put that in and -- I went Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 86 1 back and put that in. And of course, now the -- that's -- 2 that's been changed into a allegation of forgery of her 3 signature. 4 We eventually went to the fifth amended complaint. 5 I dropped Bennetta Slaughter; I dropped AMC Publishing. I 6 had wrongful -- I had nursing home counts in there that I 7 dropped because I had, in good faith, believed that they 8 were operating as a nursing home or assisted care facility. 9 They were unlicensed. They were practicing medicine without 10 a license. We went through all these different counts. I 11 even had a common law wrongful death count in, rather than a 12 statutory wrongful death count, because I had done my 13 research and the research that I found led me to the 14 good-faith belief that there was a common law cause of 15 action as well as a statutory, and the common law gave you 16 more damages than the statute did. 17 So we went through many amended complaints, many 18 motions. We finally ended up -- 19 Let's go now, I guess, to the summer of 1999. And 20 I'm going to try and see if my memory will help me out here. 21 I'm not sure of the first date I met Jesse Prince, 22 but I met Jesse Prince -- 23 MR. WIENBERG: Excuse me, your Honor. Is there 24 a question at this point or is it just going to 25 be -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 87 1 THE COURT: I'll just kind of let him have a 2 narrative. 3 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 4 THE COURT: In other words -- I don't really 5 know how to do this without a lot of questions, 6 but -- 7 MR. WIENBERG: That's why I haven't objected, 8 but -- but I'm not sure if we still -- 9 THE COURT: There's a certain allegation that 10 seems to be permeating that one of the things that 11 goes to the crux of the lawsuit is that Mr. Minton 12 came in, gave money and then the complaint was 13 changed, and all of the intentional, murderous, 14 whatever allegations came along. So he is now 15 trying to explain how he got to the fifth complaint, 16 and I've kind of let him just do it by a narrative. 17 MR. LIROT: It would save us a lot of time, 18 Judge. 19 THE COURT: I think it would. And rather than 20 him just periodically saying, "What happened 21 next --" 22 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 23 THE COURT: -- I mean, I think we'll just allow 24 him to go on ahead. 25 MR. WIENBERG: All right. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 88 1 THE COURT: But that's what I'm -- that's -- 2 I'm not interested in other suits that were brought 3 against whatever. I just want to know how and 4 whether or not Mr. Minton -- obviously, the 5 allegation is that Mr. Minton caused, by his 6 donation, this complaint to evolve to where it is. 7 So naturally that is what I'm trying to find out, 8 whether there's any truth to that and, you know, if 9 so, what is it? 10 A Well, let me answer that, 'cause I -- hit the -- 11 the nail on the head, as they say. 12 The allegations of why Lisa McPherson died; did it 13 have anything to do with any of the tech or technology or 14 writings of the Church of Scientology -- all of that 15 information was derived from Robert Vaughn Young. Mr. Young 16 has spent 25 years in Scientology. He was the expert on 17 Scientology that had -- that I had met early on in the case, 18 I believe, March of '97. Then I met Larry Wollersheim and 19 then I met others. But he is the one that told me about the 20 introspection rundown. He's the one that told me, without 21 waiving any privilege here -- 22 BY THE COURT: 23 Q He's a representative -- 24 A Pardon me? 25 No. He was my expert. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 89 1 Q Oh. 2 A And he's testified about this in his deposition. 3 Q Okay. 4 A And he is the one who told me that someone 5 psychotic like Lisa McPherson would be immediately reported 6 up the lines to David Miscavige at the very top of the 7 hierarchy of the Church of Scientology, and he is the one 8 that told me that Scientology will and has permitted people 9 to die rather -- for one purpose only, and that is to 10 protect the public relations image of the Church of 11 Scientology. 12 And I'm sitting there, how does that help them if 13 someone dies? And -- but -- and he showed me some 14 information. 15 And that's how these allegations evolved into the 16 first amended complaint, and it continued on throughout 17 until the fifth amended complaint. 18 Jesse Prince -- I believe it was the summer of 19 '99. And I will say absolutely, positively, I never met 20 with Robert Minton to discuss anything that had to do with 21 pleadings, parties, adding on parties, anything like that. 22 Robert Minton was out there on the Internet and he was out 23 there in Clearwater later on -- not even up until this time. 24 He didn't come to Clearwater till the -- December, I 25 believe, of '99, late fall, December of '99. All of this is Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 90 1 me acting as the lawyer, gathering up information. 2 I tried to gather information from the defendants. 3 They were all pleading the Fifth Amendment on advice of 4 counsel because the criminal charges were still there, and I 5 was going through all these amendments based upon what my 6 experts and consultants were telling me, and never had any 7 input from Mr. Minton whatsoever. Never. Not even till 8 today. Not even up till today. Never. 9 Q Okay. 10 A So Jesse Prince arrives on the scene. He tells me 11 his credentials of his experience in the Church of 12 Scientology. 13 Q About when was that, as best you can recall? 14 A I believe it was the summer of '99. I remember -- 15 somebody could correct me -- yeah. I remember flying to Key 16 West, having a meeting with Brian Haney, a former 17 Scientologist; Jesse Prince -- and I think that's when I met 18 him; Dan Leipold, an attorney in California, who has vast 19 years of experience of litigating against the Church of 20 Scientology; and Ford Greene, another attorney from northern 21 California, also with experience in suing religious 22 organizations. 23 That's where I met Jesse Prince, I believe. And 24 that's where we talked and talked and talked. And he flew 25 back with me to my office, and we just started talking. And Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 91 1 I retained him sometime, I believe, thereafter as a expert, 2 as a consultant. And that's when he came up and told me 3 about -- based upon -- he was number two worldwide in the 4 Scientology hierarchy of executives. He was the -- an 5 executive officer -- and I'm forgetting which officer, what 6 position -- of the Religious Technologies Center, which is 7 the corporation -- 8 Q Remember, I -- I read that affidavit that he 9 filed. 10 A There you go. Okay. Then you have it all. 11 Q So -- and I recall that he indicates all of the 12 various things that he did and was involved in in the 13 church. 14 A Okay. So that affidavit culminated from him being 15 in my office, having access to the Scientology literature 16 that I had, reading over the files that I had -- 17 Q Did you have the preclear files at that time? 18 A I can't tell you. I don't know. I just don't 19 remember. 20 See, if I had my pleadings, I could tell you 21 what -- when everything happened. 22 But -- and it's in the record of -- I mean, 23 there's boxes, I'm sure, of pleadings in this case, so I can 24 find that out if and when you want me to find that out. 25 So he came up with this affidavit. I read over Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 92 1 the affidavit. It didn't shock me as much -- had he come in 2 '97, it would have shocked me more than reading -- than what 3 I knew by then, in '99. It didn't shock me at all. 4 So that's when I -- I made a decision to contact 5 my client, Dell Liebreich. And I said, "Look, I have Jesse 6 Prince here," and I told him all about -- told her all about 7 Jesse Prince. I said, "I -- I promised Fanny McPherson, 8 just days before she died, that I would pursue everybody 9 that was responsible, and here I have a guy who could 10 connect every -- all the dots all the way up to the very top 11 of the Church of Scientology. He's seen people die because 12 they were given orders to, quote, end cycle. One of them 13 was one of his very close friends. And this person was in 14 charge of litigation previously years ago for the Church of 15 Scientology. He went around the world hiring law firms; he 16 went around telling them how to conduct their litigation --" 17 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. Is what 18 is being described is what Mr. Dandar told 19 Ms. Liebreich that Mr. Prince told him? 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 22 A And I said, "You know, we have --" 23 THE COURT: Did you withdraw your objection? I 24 mean, I think -- 25 MR. WIENBERG: It's all hearsay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 93 1 THE COURT: I know. But I think for this 2 hearing and for what's being alleged here, that I'm 3 going to -- I think it just almost has to come in. 4 MR. WIENBERG: I understand. I just wanted to 5 see if this was him saying -- 6 THE COURT: That's what I am assuming, that he 7 is saying Jesse Prince told him this; at this point 8 in time he called his client, and he was revealing 9 what he had learned to his client. 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 MR. WIENBERG: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: Right, right. 13 A So as a result of discussing all this with my 14 client and what I had learned from Jesse Prince -- and I do 15 have a jury trial consultant, Dr. Michael Garko -- Jesse 16 Prince, Michael Garko and I were talking -- 17 BY THE COURT: 18 Q Who is Michael Garko? 19 A He's a jury trial consultant, PhD -- 20 Q Who is this gentleman that always comes to court? 21 A Oh, that's Rick Spector. He's a -- 22 Q Spector. Okay. 23 A -- videographer. 24 Q Have I ever met Dr. Garko? 25 A Yes. During the trial that ended in a hung jury a Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 94 1 month ago -- 2 Q Oh, okay. 3 A -- he was in there. 4 And the decision came that we need to go 5 forward -- we have the information, we have an expert 6 witness -- add on these other corporations and other 7 individuals to the lawsuit. So I prepared a motion to amend 8 the complaint. 9 I got a letter from Lee Fugate, when I filed it, 10 saying, you know -- reminding me that there was an agreement 11 that was signed back in December -- November, December of 12 '97, agreeing not to add on parties -- 13 Q This is the fifth amended complaint you're talking 14 about? 15 A This is the last one. 16 Well, no, no, no. This is the -- there's many 17 fifth amended complaints. This was the first one. 18 Q Okay. Maybe I don't even have the right one. 19 THE COURT: I presume, Lee, when you gave me 20 this, you gave me the one that is in existence. 21 MR. FUGATE: The one that is operative now. 22 What he's saying is there were a number of 23 iterations before you got to that. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WIENBERG: There was a motion to amend, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 95 1 which you may or may not be looking at -- 2 THE COURT: I'm not. What Mr. Fugate provided 3 me was the fifth, fourth, third, second and first. 4 So the fifth is the ultimate fifth that we're 5 dealing with. 6 MR. WIENBERG: It's got January of 2000 on it? 7 THE COURT: It says -- no. It says that this 8 is furnished this 21st day of December 1999 -- 9 MR. WIENBERG: Yeah. That's right. 10 THE WITNESS: That's the one. That's the last 11 one. The operative one. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q And that's the one where, in addition to -- 14 Now, some of these people came off. Bennetta 15 Slaughter came off. 16 A Oh, yeah. Right. 17 Minkoff, Dr. Minkoff. 18 Q And her corporation. Was that by court order or 19 was that by your -- 20 A Settled -- we just dropped them. We settled with 21 Dr. Minkoff. We dropped Bennetta Slaughter. We dropped -- 22 we decided not to pursue them. 23 Q So at the time the fifth amended complaint was 24 filed, you had left: The Church of Scientology Flag Service 25 Organization, Inc., Janis Johnson, Alain Karduzinski, and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 96 1 David Houghton, and you added to that David Miscavige. 2 A Well, that's the last complaint, yeah. 3 Q Right. 4 A But we're not there yet. We're almost there. 5 Q Okay. 6 A So when Lee Fugate reminded me of this agreement, 7 in 1997, not to add on additional parties, and in exchange 8 for that, the trial would not be delayed, we would hurry up 9 and get to a trial date, and they would not fraudulently 10 convey their property, as they did in the Wollersheim 11 case -- 12 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, your Honor. 13 BY THE COURT: 14 Q Don't need it, Mr. Dandar. 15 A I'm sorry. 16 Q All right. 17 A But I'm -- I'm telling you the truth. 18 Q It doesn't matter. I just don't need it in this 19 hearing. 20 A All right, all right, all right. 21 Q That -- that would be something that Judge Baird 22 might be interested in, but here -- 23 A Okay. 24 Q -- I'm not. 25 A Very well. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 97 1 So I filed a motion to set aside this stipulation. 2 And it went before Judge Moody in October of '99. And Judge 3 Moody ruled the stipulation is valid. I said, "There's no 4 consideration." He said, "No. The stipulation is valid." 5 It was like a short hearing. He said, "But you want to go 6 forward and breach it, you suffer the consequences." 7 And we decided -- and I said it on the record -- 8 we don't intend to breach a valid stipulation. So we backed 9 off and we did not pursue it, and we went back. 10 Q What does that mean, went back? 11 A Well, we went back to redraft the complaint and 12 take these -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A -- proposed defendants off because -- 15 Q All right. 16 A -- we had no intention of breaching the agreement. 17 And he so ruled that we did not breach that 18 agreement. 19 So the Church of Scientology then was -- 20 THE COURT: Excuse me. 21 You know, I -- it isn't a laughing matter, 22 folks. I don't need it, and I don't need the 23 laughter and -- I just don't need it. And I was 24 watching Mr. Dandar and heard it. Therefore, it was 25 loud enough for other people to hear. We have Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 98 1 members of the public that are here. I don't want 2 anybody to think that anything going on here which 3 alleges the types of things that are alleged here 4 are laughing matters. So therefore, when this 5 witness is testifying, you're not to laugh. 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q Continue. 8 A Thank you. 9 So I went back, conferred with my experts, my 10 consultants, my jury trial consultant. 11 Q And again -- 12 A Never -- 13 Q And again, you're -- make sure I understand who 14 you're saying. You're saying Jesse Prince, Vaughn Young -- 15 A Vaughn Young, Jesse Prince, Stacy -- I think she 16 was Stacy Brooks at that time -- Vaughn Young; his ex-wife 17 now, Stacy Brooks; Jesse Prince. Vaughn Young by phone; 18 Jesse Prince in person; Stacy in person; Dr. Michael Garko, 19 my trial consultant -- 20 Q This is a discussion to determine how you're 21 finally going to file this last -- 22 A Yeah. 23 Q -- complaint? 24 A If I'm going to do anything with this -- 25 Q Okay. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 99 1 A -- if I'm just going to let it go. 2 And the only one that was a proponent of this was 3 Stacy Brooks. So I mean, she's -- she just said, "He's the 4 one. He's the one. He's in charge." I said, "I know 5 that," I said, "But you know -- and I know my promise to 6 Fanny McPherson." I said, "Okay, but --" 7 MR. WIENBERG: Will you just identify -- are 8 you talking about Mr. Miscavige? 9 THE WITNESS: Adding on David Miscavige. 10 A Because everyone else are just -- they just -- 11 they do whatever he says to do. He's -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. I think 13 Ms. Brooks came in, and Mr. Minton. And if the rule 14 was invoked, I should tell them that? 15 THE COURT: Yes, you should. Ask them if 16 they'd -- 17 Well, let's see. Mr. Minton is a party. 18 THE WITNESS: Not to this case. 19 THE COURT: Not to this case. So he'll have to 20 step out. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Has he been added to the 23 counterclaim? 24 MR. WIENBERG: Yes. He's in the counterclaim. 25 I think. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 100 1 MR. FUGATE: He is in the counterclaim. 2 THE COURT: I think he is. 3 THE WITNESS: I haven't seen an amended 4 counterclaim. 5 MR. MOXON: Judge, you ordered it, but the -- 6 THE COURT: If he hasn't been added as a party 7 yet, he's not a party, so he'll have to step 8 outside. I'm sorry. 9 MR. MOXON: But you -- you ordered that he was 10 added. 11 THE COURT: But he's not been. I mean, that's 12 a decision for you to make, and he hasn't been. 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I apologize. I had my back 14 to you. Does that -- who am I instructing to leave? 15 THE COURT: Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. 16 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I'll explain that. 17 THE WITNESS: I will add this though, Judge: 18 They are parties before Judge Baird. And if this is 19 a continuation of -- 20 THE COURT: I don't care, frankly, if all the 21 people stay in. I mean, I can't believe for a 22 minute that everybody's not reading what's public 23 record. 24 MR. WIENBERG: Well, the point that Mr. Dandar 25 made is a good one. All the other witnesses were Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 101 1 excluded, but since they were parties in front of 2 Judge Baird, Mr. Minton -- 3 THE COURT: Why don't we just let the people 4 in? What's the harm here? 5 MR. LIROT: Briefly, Judge, I'm going to show 6 this to counsel -- 7 THE COURT: This is sort of a pretrial issue. 8 Obviously a very important issue. But we're not 9 going to be talking about any of the matters that 10 we're going to do at trial if we ever get to a 11 trial. 12 MR. LIROT: I don't have another copy of that. 13 Judge, if I could approach Mr. Dandar? 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you a copy -- 18 THE COURT: I need to make sure -- we asked 19 that the rule be invoked, and now are we just going 20 to allow the witnesses to observe, if they're here? 21 MR. WIENBERG: I would object to anybody other 22 than Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, because they were 23 there during all of Mr. Dandar's testimony in the 24 breach case, but all the other witnesses were 25 excluded. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 102 1 THE COURT: Then I'm excluding them as well. 2 Ask them to step out. 3 MR. WIENBERG: All right. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate, ask them to step out. 5 Okay. Continue. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Mr. Dandar, I'm going to hand you what's entitled 8 Order on Plaintiff's Motion to Add Party and File Fifth 9 Amended Complaint, and if you could describe that document 10 and explain that to the court. 11 A Yes. 12 So anyway, after meeting with them, looking at 13 more evidence on the structure of Scientology, at this time 14 I obtained some new information. One of them, I believe, 15 was called RTC news. It's a newsletter put out by the 16 Religious Technology Center, which is a senior corporation 17 to Flag, because Flag sends all of their net profits up to 18 RTC. 19 And it said on the back cover -- and this was 20 introduced before Judge Moody -- 21 MR. WIENBERG: Your Honor, I'm -- 22 A -- that if someone -- 23 MR. WIENBERG: -- going to object to this 24 testimony -- 25 THE WITNESS: Excuse me. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 103 1 MR. WIENBERG: -- that RTC does this and that. 2 If he could just confine himself to what he did as 3 opposed to -- 4 THE COURT: Well, he's confining himself to why 5 it is he did what he did, and so therefore I think 6 he can say it. Whether it's true or not really is 7 sort of irrelevant. This is why -- he's explaining 8 to us why he did what he did. I mean, you would 9 challenge what Jesse Prince told him as not being 10 true, but he's basing what he did as to filing his 11 fifth amended complaint -- 12 MR. WIENBERG: I understand. 13 THE COURT: -- on what -- 14 MR. WIENBERG: And this is our last comment: 15 He throws in the, "because this is what RTC does, A, 16 B and C," or whatever -- 17 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. Overruled. 18 I'm not suggesting that it's true or not true. 19 I'm just suggesting he's testifying as to how he got 20 to the complaint that we're on, because this was 21 raised as a critical part of the lawsuit which would 22 have some bearing on the motion to dismiss. 23 MR. LIROT: His understanding. 24 THE COURT: His understanding. Exactly. 25 A So I had this newsletter -- I had an original, not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 104 1 some -- what someone said on the Internet -- I had an 2 original newsletter from RTC. And on the back it says, "You 3 must immediately report PTS Type 3, potential trouble source 4 Type 3, slash, psychotic, immediately up the lines to RTC." 5 And David Miscavige sits up at the top, controls 6 everything, because he is the only captain of the Sea 7 Organization which is the -- 8 MR. WIENBERG: Objection, again. The 9 newsletters didn't say that. It just said what he 10 said. He didn't say David Miscavige is in control 11 of everything and he's the captain of the Sea Org 12 and all that. This is my objection. 13 THE COURT: I believe Jesse Prince or somebody 14 else told him that. 15 MR. WIENBERG: Well, he's testifying about this 16 newsletter. 17 THE COURT: No. He's testifying about -- as a 18 conglomerate of everything he read, what it is he 19 believed and why he filed the fifth amended 20 complaint. 21 Proceed. 22 Overruled. 23 A So -- 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Can you explain the term to the court? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 105 1 THE COURT: What term? 2 A The Sea Organization? 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q PTS Type 3. 5 A Oh -- 6 THE COURT: I don't need that. Good lord, I 7 can tell you I know more than I ever wanted to know 8 about PTS3. 9 A So I had this information. I had Jesse Prince. I 10 had Stacy Brooks. Again, Stacy Brooks was the most vocal 11 about her knowledge within the Office of Special Affairs. 12 Her knowledge about David Miscavige. Jesse Prince had 13 similar knowledge and had more executive experience because 14 he was with RTC. And I had heard from Vaughn Young. 15 And Michael Garko was there with me. And we 16 were -- I was just kind of weary of all this, but again, I 17 had my promise to Fanny McPherson. And I said, "If he's the 18 one that's responsible, then I'm going to go and pursue and 19 add him on as the captain of the Sea Org. Because the Sea 20 Org -- S-e-a, O-r-g, Sea Organization, which are the staff 21 members who run all the corporations of Scientology -- no 22 matter what corporate entity it is, he is the guy that's in 23 charge of all of them. 24 And I saw the newspaper where he went in at some 25 mission-holder conference in San Francisco, as a Sea Org Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 106 1 member, and ousted the president or the officers of this 2 other Scientology, separate on paper, corporation. 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY THE COURT: 5 Q Who did that? 6 A David Miscavige. 7 I said, "Well, then, this guy's pretty powerful." 8 So we filed a motion to file amended -- fifth 9 amended complaint, which is dated December of 1999. Names 10 David Miscavige individually. And we went to a hearing on 11 December 14th, 1999 before Judge Moody. We presented this 12 evidence that I had acquired, plus some of the old evidence 13 I had, and we added him on individually as a defendant, 14 based upon everything I knew at that time. And Judge Moody 15 granted the motion to add on dated January 6th, 2000. 16 And the only reason we proceeded after that is 17 because we had a court order permitting us to add him on. 18 Because as I just told you, back in October, we could not 19 add him on as the chairman of the board of RTC, 'cause RTC 20 was part of this agreement, so we backed off and we didn't 21 pursue it that way. 22 Q So you pursued him -- in other words, on the fifth 23 amended complaint he is listed as a defendant -- 24 A In his individual -- 25 Q -- in his individual capacity, and you had a court Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 107 1 order that allowed you to. 2 A And it's right here. 3 MR. LIROT: I'll hand it to you, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Are you introducing -- this is 5 probably part of this record, but lord only -- 6 MR. LIROT: It's probably -- 7 THE COURT: -- knows where it is. 8 MR. LIROT: I think it's appropriate for 9 judicial notice. It's certainly a document most 10 likely a part of this record. 11 THE WITNESS: It's certainly in the court file. 12 I don't think it's an exhibit before Judge Baird. 13 THE COURT: Okay. The -- this can be made a 14 Defendant's Exhibit? 15 MR. LIROT: I'd like to. 16 MR. WIENBERG: Plaintiff's exhibit. 17 MR. LIROT: We're Plaintiff here. 18 THE COURT: Plaintiff's Exhibit 3. 19 (Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 3 marked for identification.) 20 THE COURT: If this is your only copy that you 21 have right now, you can substitute a copy after 22 lunch. Or if you have another one of these, we'll 23 just go right ahead and -- 24 THE WITNESS: I'm sure we have another one. 25 No, that's our original. Great. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 108 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. LIROT: I'll -- I'll leave it with the 3 court reporter and then I'll -- I'll retrieve it and 4 make copies, Judge. 5 THE WITNESS: Let's just make a copy later. 6 THE COURT: This is going to -- 7 MR. LIROT: I'll get it from you at the break. 8 THE COURT: All right. This is going to be -- 9 a copy -- made a part of the hearing. It'll be 10 Plaintiff's Exhibit 3. And I'm going to leave it 11 right here to be removed, make a copy, and then 12 given to my clerk, and she'll identify it and mark 13 it at that time. 14 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 15 A Now, what I can tell you without question is that 16 Robert Minton had no input whatsoever in any of these 17 additional parties; in any of the allegations of the 18 complaint; in any of the different counts of the complaint. 19 All those different counts of the complaint came out of my 20 mind based upon what information I had gathered from my 21 consultants and my reading of things and my depositions that 22 I took and my -- depositions that they took. He had 23 absolutely no input whatsoever; I would not permit it. And 24 in fact, he was -- at times I heard he was quite upset about 25 that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 109 1 Now, in -- 2 BY THE COURT: 3 Q His testimony -- I believe he testified, and I 4 could be wrong -- but I believe he testified that -- there 5 was some allegation somewhere that I read that he was upset 6 and indicated he didn't want to finance just a wrongful 7 death; he wanted something that more or less attacked 8 Scientology, and therefore, this new affidavit of Jesse 9 Prince or the affidavit of Jesse Prince and the new 10 complaint was filed. Is that accurate? 11 A It's -- it's basically accurate. What my 12 understanding is, is that Stacy Brooks and Mr. Minton were 13 not pleased at all with me. And quite frankly, I didn't 14 care -- 15 Q Wait -- 16 A -- because I was -- 17 Q Wait a second. 18 You just told us in court that it was not accurate 19 that he had anything to do with the complaint. 20 A Yeah. But I'm just saying what I heard. He never 21 told me that. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I just heard that. 24 Q So you're saying that after you heard what 25 Mr. Minton wanted done, you filed the complaint? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 110 1 A No. I said -- I don't -- you know -- 2 Q Listen to the question. 3 A No. The answer is no. 4 MR. LIROT: Ask -- you can ask the question 5 again, Judge. 6 A Unless I didn't understand your question. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q The question was -- is, I believe, I read 9 somewhere that Mr. Minton was upset because he didn't want 10 to pay money to fund a, quote, what I would think of as a 11 wrongful death; that being a negligent -- some negligence 12 which causes death and there are damages. And because he 13 was upset, the -- the complaint that added David Miscavige 14 and the allegations of intentional murder by the church or 15 intentional whatever it is by the church was filed. Is that 16 accurate? 17 A No. No. 18 Q All right. 19 A No. 20 Q So are you saying that if Mr. Minton says that, 21 that is not true? 22 A That is not true. 23 Q Okay. 24 A No. Again, Mr. Minton had absolutely no 25 involvement in the way I pled, who I sued, anything about Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 111 1 the litigation. 2 Q So when you answered yes just previously, was that 3 because you didn't listen to my question carefully? 4 A You're absolutely right. 5 Q Well, be very careful about that. Because as I 6 said, both sides seem to sometimes take a word or a sentence 7 or a phrase and file it and use it. And it can be very 8 damaging and it can be very true and exactly what it says. 9 So you must listen to every question -- and I'm 10 going to tell every witness that testifies, you must listen 11 to the whole question that's asked and make sure -- I do 12 this all the time. You know, I do this all the time as a 13 judge. I'll read -- I'll read where my answer, I'm 14 thinking, is a yes to what's been asked, but the truth of 15 the matter is it's really a no the way that the question is 16 asked. 17 You have to -- all witnesses have to be very 18 careful when you're trying to make a record -- and this is 19 really a record that we're trying to make here, whatever 20 this court does -- that's accurate. So you listen before 21 you answer a question. 22 A Okay. 23 So we sent out an interrogatory to Flag, Church of 24 Scientology Flag Service Organization, Inc., the defendant, 25 and said, "Give us the residential address and the business Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 112 1 address of David Miscavige." They objected. We had a 2 hearing before Judge Moody. He compelled the answer. 3 They -- they filed an answer, giving us a Hollywood 4 Boulevard address in Los Angeles for both his residence and 5 his business address. Quite unusual for someone to live 6 where you work -- 7 Q Don't need that. Just -- 8 A All right. 9 MR. LIROT: All right. 10 A So we could never serve him. We could never find 11 him. 12 They filed a motion to dismiss, Mr. Rosen filed on 13 behalf of Miscavige. He was dismissed because we could 14 never get service of process on him. 15 BY THE COURT: 16 Q No, he was not dismissed because of the agreement. 17 A No. 18 Q He was dismissed because he was never served. 19 A Correct. 20 Q Oh. 21 See, I always thought he was dismissed because 22 there was an agreement that he shouldn't be sued. 23 MR. WIENBERG: Originally he was dismissed, as 24 was RTC and the other church organizations, because 25 of the agreement. Then Mr. Dandar refiled under Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 113 1 this theory of the Sea Org, and -- and Judge Moody, 2 whose order in front of you, allowed Mr. Miscavige, 3 not as the representative of RTC as he was sued 4 before, but as the -- as the Sea Org thing. 5 THE COURT: And the reason why he's out of this 6 litigation, then, as an individual, is because 7 service of process was never had on him. 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I was -- again, I was 10 confused. I thought that he had been dismissed by a 11 court as an inappropriate party because of the 12 agreement or the contract or whatever. 13 MR. WIENBERG: Well, again, he originally was. 14 THE COURT: I understand. 15 MR. LIROT: I'll ask this question, then -- 16 THE COURT: But he wasn't now. In the fifth 17 complaint, the complaint we're trying, he was 18 dismissed because he wasn't correct. 19 MR. LIROT: That's correct. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Was Mr. Miscavige added in his capacity identified 24 in Judge Moody's order as a different capacity than that 25 that was the subject of this stipulation? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 114 1 A Yes. Yes. And it was after a hearing, 2 presentation of some evidence, Jesse Prince's affidavit, and 3 Judge Moody said he's not covered by this agreement 4 whatsoever, and permitted us to add him on as a defendant. 5 Q Very good. 6 A So I'm trying to figure out what the issues are, 7 because I don't want to talk about five years of litigation. 8 Trying to figure out where we're heading here. 9 Q We're -- 10 THE COURT: Well, I think that completes the 11 complaint. In other words, his testimony is, as I 12 understand it, that Mr. Minton had nothing to do 13 with the filing of his complaint. 14 MR. LIROT: Correct. 15 THE COURT: And that certainly Mr. Minton's 16 money had nothing to do with the filing of his 17 complaint. 18 MR. LIROT: Correct. 19 THE COURT: Based on his work, his work 20 product, his dealing with experts, affidavits, 21 whatever. And that Mr. Minton's money had nothing 22 to do with it. That's the sum and substance of that 23 testimony. 24 MR. LIROT: Correct. 25 THE WITNESS: Correct. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 115 1 THE COURT: Now you need to move on to point 2. 2 MR. LIROT: Well, I -- I would like to -- I'll 3 ask these questions for the record, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Were any allegations in the fifth amended 7 complaint, which were included, false, to your knowledge, or 8 included with knowledge of their falsity? 9 A No. Never. 10 Q All right. Were they -- were any allegations made 11 to, quote, create scandalous publicity against the church? 12 A No. 13 Q Did Mr. Minton ever ask you to add any allegations 14 to create scandalous publicity against the church? 15 A Never. 16 Q Were any of the allegations in the fifth amended 17 complaint included to create a negative reaction against the 18 church among the public, the press and among local, state 19 and national government authorities? 20 A Never. 21 Q Were any of the allegations in the fifth amended 22 complaint included to infect the jury pool? 23 A Never. 24 Q Were any allegations in the fifth amended 25 complaint added to increase the cost and expense of Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 116 1 defending this litigation and coerce a highly inflated 2 settlement of the case? 3 A Never. 4 Q All right. Were those allegations included as a 5 result of your due diligence and research and your judgment 6 as an attorney in this case? 7 A Absolutely. 8 And the fact is, the allegations are based upon 9 the written documents of the Church of Scientology. 10 Q Now, when you consulted with Ms. Brooks and 11 Mr. Prince, were they actually working for you as 12 consultants in this case? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And -- 15 A And Jesse Prince was a trial expert as well. 16 Q All right. And Ms. Brooks, not named as an 17 expert, was a consultant. 18 A She was a consultant; never a testifying witness. 19 Q All right. Did she ever execute a confidentiality 20 agreement with you pursuant to her services of consultant in 21 this case? 22 A Yes. I believe she did. I think I had everybody 23 that was working on this execute a confidentiality 24 agreement. 25 Q Based on your research, did you have any reason to Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 117 1 doubt the veracity or validity of any of the information 2 given to you by Jesse Prince or Ms. Brooks that led to the 3 allegations in the fifth amended complaint? 4 A No. Because all of their statements were backed 5 up by the written documents of the Church of Scientology. I 6 just -- it was just too much for me to read -- anyone to 7 read, tens of thousands -- 8 THE COURT: You know, I don't know that that -- 9 I mean, we're going to have to litigate what -- what 10 a jury's going to litigate here in this hearing. We 11 don't have the time for it. They've already 12 scheduled that for between two and four months in 13 front of a jury. 14 But what I need to know, as I understand it, is 15 whether or not that Miscavige (sic), in the giving 16 of this money, had anything to do with the 17 allegations that were filed. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 MR. WIENBERG: You mean Minton, right? 20 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Pardon me. Minton. 21 THE WITNESS: No. I have never -- I have never 22 received a dime from Robert Minton that had anything 23 to do with how the case was handled. The only time 24 I received a dime from Mr. Minton was when he asked 25 me if I needed money, or I asked him. That's it. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 118 1 THE COURT: Okay. Seems like this would be a 2 good place to stop for lunch. I'm sorry. It's my 3 problem. 4 MR. LIROT: That's all right. That's why I set 5 my alarm. 6 THE COURT: Number 1 -- 7 MR. LIROT: I think we're finished with 8 number 1, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Then we'll come back 10 and let him step down and proceed with Ms. Brooks 11 this afternoon, or the rest of your case, whatever 12 it might be. Then we'll put Mr. Dandar back on the 13 stand. 14 MR. FUGATE: What time do you want to resume? 15 THE COURT: How about 1:00? And I hope I'm 16 done. I'm going to take my lunch hour and eat in 17 and tend to my business. 18 Okay. We'll see you at 1. And if I have any 19 extra time, I'll try to read these complaints. 20 And you give this to my clerk, okay? 21 MR. LIROT: Immediately, Judge. 22 (A recess was taken.) 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 119 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 12 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 4th day of May, 2002. 13 14 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 145 1 2 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 3 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 2 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 15 DATE: May 3, 2002, afternoon session. 16 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 17 St. Petersburg, Florida. 18 BEFORE: Hon. Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 19 REPORTED BY: Donna M. Kanabay RMR, CRR, 20 Notary Public, State of Florida at large. 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 146 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 147 1 APPEARANCES (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 149 1 THE COURT: Okay. Continue on. 2 MR. LIROT: We'll wait for Mr. Fugate, but I 3 want to make a statement before we start. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 MR. FUGATE: Sorry, Judge, actually I was in 6 line at the men's room. Believe it or not. 7 THE COURT: Counsel wanted to make a statement. 8 MR. LIROT: The only thing, Judge, he made a 9 comment about Mr. Dandar participating in the 10 pickets. And I know I talked to him about it -- 11 Mr. Dandar never participated in any picket. I 12 think his statement was he was in a vigil or 13 something like that. But he was just very concerned 14 about that. 15 THE COURT: All I know is I saw a picture of 16 Mr. Dandar carrying a sign that appeared like what 17 somebody might carry in a picket, vigil, whatever 18 one wanted to call it. I don't know that it was a 19 picket, to tell you the truth. I don't know what it 20 was. But I know I saw Mr. Dandar with a sign 21 involving this case. 22 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Involving Lisa McPherson. But I, 24 quite frankly -- 25 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 150 1 Honor? I'd offer -- 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, first of all, do you recognize the folks in 4 the photo there that I've just handed up, which would be our 5 Exhibit 74? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And can you identify it, please? 8 A Well, it's the trial team. 9 Q Okay. And the trial team would be -- who is on 10 the far left, as you look at the photo? 11 A That's Jesse Prince. 12 Q Okay. And what is he holding in his hand? 13 A He's holding -- 14 THE COURT: Did you not just put this into 15 evidence? 16 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Well, I tried -- 17 THE COURT: Did I not see it? 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I mean, we can see it. It's in 20 evidence, right? It's a picture of -- what do you 21 want her to explain? It's in evidence. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Okay. Is Mr. Dandar in the photograph? 24 A Yes, he is. 25 Q Okay. And is this outside the criminal court -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 151 1 A Yes. 2 Q -- in Pinellas County? 3 THE COURT: And whatever -- this is isn't the 4 one I saw. I saw a picture with Mr. Dandar holding 5 a sign himself. 6 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. I've got those, Judge -- 7 THE COURT: I think. 8 MR. FUGATE: -- as well. Put those in here -- 9 Well, let's try to address the judge's concerns 10 and move forward. Would that be 74, or you say it's 11 already in? 12 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, did you get your copy? 13 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge. 14 THE COURT: I believe that's 74. 15 THE CLERK: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Here, did you get this, Madam 17 Clerk? 18 Continue. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q And to follow up, did Mr. Dandar, to your 21 observation, participate in picketing? 22 A Yes. I do believe I recall him actually holding a 23 sign a couple of times, but you know, he also participated 24 in the -- what sort of became known as the annual memorial 25 for Lisa McPherson. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 152 1 Q Which is -- 2 A A lot of people would come to Clearwater -- 3 Q December 4th and 5th or thereabouts each year? 4 A It was on the anniversary of her death, on 5 December 5th. 6 Q Now, in your affidavit, you -- you have a term, 7 the secret agreement. And to go right to the heart of that 8 issue, can you describe what you mean -- what you're 9 describing in your affidavit as the secret agreement and how 10 it differs from the other funding agreement as you 11 understood it? 12 A Well, as I -- 13 MR. LIROT: Objection. No foundation. I don't 14 know what the other agreement is. I don't know what 15 the secret agreement is. I need a foundation for 16 this, Judge, at least. 17 THE COURT: Well, it's her affidavit. She's 18 called it secret agreement, so we need to know -- 19 she needs to testify about it. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'm asking her to do it in her 21 words, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 A Okay. I said before, that there was an agreement 24 between Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and the estate that the bulk 25 of the proceeds from the wrongful death case would go to the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 153 1 LMT. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Okay. 4 THE COURT: And I think that what -- what's 5 fair here, if this was counsel's objection, we need 6 to know, ma'am, not what you -- we need to know sort 7 of what you participated in. In other words, when 8 you say there was an agreement between this one, 9 this one and this one, where you participated and 10 what parties were present and this type of thing. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Okay? 13 A I was told by Mr. Minton that this agreement 14 existed; it was mentioned at the -- when Mr. Dandar and 15 Ms. Liebreich attended the first board meeting of the LMT; 16 we all greeted each other and chatted afterwards and talked 17 about how exciting this was and -- 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Was there specifically conversation about the 20 funding by Mr. Minton and -- 21 A Yeah. How exciting it was that the bulk of the 22 proceeds was going to go to the LMT and -- 23 Q All right. Did -- you identified Ms. Liebreich. 24 Were those words that came out of her mouth? 25 A Those were words that came out of Mr. Dandar's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 154 1 mouth, but she was there and she was -- she nodded in 2 agreement, and she was very appreciative of Mr. Minton's 3 help and -- 4 Q And was there an understanding in that discussion 5 that there would be a payback of the moneys that had been 6 put into the case? 7 MR. LIROT: Objection. Competency. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q If you know. 10 THE COURT: With that, if she knows. I mean, 11 it seems like we started off talking about the 12 proceeds from recovery. 13 MR. FUGATE: No. The -- 14 THE COURT: Talking about something else now? 15 THE WITNESS: The secret agreement, your Honor, 16 wasn't that he would get -- that he would get the -- 17 his loan back; the secret agreement -- I mean, that 18 was just a regular loan agreement that he had made 19 with the estate and Mr. Dandar at the beginning; 20 that, you know, he would be repaid the money that he 21 had loaned them from the proceeds of the case. 22 MR. LIROT: Objection. Best evidence. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. Apparently best 24 evidence would be nice if we had something in 25 writing, but we don't apparently. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 155 1 THE WITNESS: But the agreement that I'm 2 referring to was an agreement that was separate from 3 that loan agreement. 4 THE COURT: Yeah. This was the agreement 5 you're talking about that the -- that the -- 6 THE WITNESS: Bulk. 7 THE COURT: -- bulk -- 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 9 THE COURT: The bulk of the proceeds -- 10 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 11 THE COURT: -- would go to the -- 12 THE WITNESS: -- LMT. And Mr. Minton was very 13 excited about this and talked about it on the 14 Internet. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Published it. 17 A On the Internet. 18 And also talked about it on a radio show that he 19 was on and -- and this was -- 20 EXAMINATION 21 BY THE COURT: 22 Q How could it be secret if it was on the Internet? 23 A It wasn't secret at that time. 24 Q You put it in your affidavit. 25 A Yeah. And the -- well, I'll get to the secret Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 156 1 part -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A -- in just a second. But you know, the people at 4 the LMT knew about it and it was sort of a happy thing. I 5 mean, everybody was very happy about it. 6 Q And everybody who read the Internet knew about it, 7 I guess. 8 A Yeah. For sure, that's true. 9 Q Okay. 10 A And then -- then what happened was Scientology 11 started to interject an argument into the wrongful death 12 case saying that, you know, this was all a business deal; 13 Minton was going to benefit from this case; this was -- you 14 know, he was -- you know, doing all these things for 15 business reasons. And Mr. Dandar got, you know, really 16 upset that Scientology was doing this. You know, we had a 17 couple of conversations in which I said to him, Mr. Dandar, 18 there's nothing wrong with the bulk of the proceeds going to 19 the Lisa McPherson Trust. And you know, so what if 20 Scientology says that about it? 21 But Mr. Dandar was -- 22 THE COURT: Sounds like me, doesn't it? Isn't 23 that what I said? 24 Okay. Sorry. 25 A Yeah. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 157 1 But Mr. Dandar was really concerned about it. You 2 know, the Scientology attorneys were really turning this 3 into a major issue. And so Mr. Dandar told us that we were 4 going to have to stop talking about this agreement about the 5 bulk of the proceeds. And -- and then -- 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q And when did that occur? 8 A When he said that? 9 Q Yeah. 10 A In the fall. It started to be, you know, don't 11 talk about that, don't talk about that, in the -- in the 12 fall of 2000. 13 Q Okay. 14 A As I recall. Maybe late summer. Whenever the -- 15 you know, you'd be able to tell by the record of the case 16 because whenever that thing started happening where they 17 were accusing Minton of investing in the lawsuit, you know, 18 that whole thing. 19 I think it was late summer or fall of 2000. And 20 then it -- December, 2000 is when the secret agreement 21 became a real serious issue because that was when Mr. Minton 22 signed the false affidavit about it. And he felt extremely 23 uncomfortable about it because -- and I actually encouraged 24 him to feel extremely uncomfortable about it, because it 25 seemed to me that if he was putting in writing and swearing Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 158 1 to the fact that there was no agreement, well, then -- then 2 there wasn't going to be any bulk of the proceeds going to 3 anything. And you know, he spoke to Mr. Dandar about this, 4 and Mr. Dandar said -- 5 MR. LIROT: Objection. We don't know if she 6 was anywhere near these conversations. 7 THE WITNESS: I was. I was there. 8 THE COURT: Overruled. 9 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Whenever I talk about 10 one of these conversations, I mean 'cause I was 11 there. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. 14 A You know -- and he talked to me about it quite a 15 bit, Mr. Minton did. Because I was saying, you know, "Don't 16 do this. It's not a good idea." 17 But he spoke to Mr. Dandar about it; Mr. Dandar 18 said, "Look, you know, the agreement still exists. It's 19 just that we can't talk about it and we can't -- you know, 20 it -- we've got to get away from this in the case because 21 they're really trying to use this as a way to, you know, 22 derail the case, so --" or whatever. 23 And so, you know, of course, that's what's going 24 to happen when the -- when the -- when we get a judgment. 25 But we have to say that it's not. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 159 1 Q If we just file a bunch of false affidavits, we 2 won't derail the case. 3 A Well, you see, your Honor, that's a good point you 4 bring up, because -- right. 5 Q I'm sorry. I just kind of interjected myself, and 6 I didn't need to do that. 7 A Well -- 8 Q I'm sorry. 9 A That's how I feel about it too. It's -- 10 subsequently, I lied about this in a deposition; Mr. Minton 11 lied about this in a deposition. 12 Q About this -- 13 A About the fact that -- 14 Q The bulk of the proceeds were going -- 15 A Right. 16 Q -- to be -- 17 A That was asked -- that was specifically asked, I 18 think it was by Mr. Moxon, I think. You know, I -- and 19 first he asked me about it and I tried to get around it by 20 distracting him in another direction, but you know, that 21 didn't work. And so then he asked me again, you know, "Is 22 there an agreement for the bulk of the proceeds?" And I 23 said, "No." Well, you know, I was lying. And Mr. Minton 24 started lying about it. And -- 25 Q Why, for heaven sakes? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 160 1 A Well -- 2 Q You had already said -- you said what's the big 3 deal? It's okay. 4 A I know, but Mr. Dandar felt very, very strongly 5 that it was important that we do this. And -- 6 Q Did he ever say why? Other than they were just 7 making a big deal about it and -- 8 A Because they -- because -- 9 Q It was derailing the case? 10 A Yeah. Because Scientology was using this 11 agreement to turn the case into a case about Mr. Minton and 12 not about Lisa McPherson. That was basically the -- the way 13 that he spoke about it. Scientology was turning it into a 14 case about Mr. Minton and not about Lisa McPherson. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And so the only way to get the attention off of 17 Mr. Minton was to say that there was no agreement. 18 Now, you can imagine this was a little difficult 19 to do after he'd gone on the radio and posted things on the 20 Internet saying that there was. And of course, Mr. Moxon 21 was bringing these things out at his deposition and saying, 22 "There's no agreement? Well, then why did you say there was 23 an agreement?" You know, it was -- it was -- it was just so 24 obvious. You know, it was just so obvious. 25 But -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 161 1 Q Well, you knew that -- you knew -- you've been in 2 this Church of Scientology. You knew they had fine lawyers. 3 A The best -- 4 Q And you knew that they absolutely would have known 5 what was out on the Internet said by Mr. Minton. 6 A In a heartbeat. 7 Q And surely, surely, you knew therefore there would 8 be a deposition where Mr. Minton would be asked about, 9 "Well, look here what you said." Did you talk to him about 10 this? 11 A Yes, I did. 12 Q Did you say, "We're crazy to do this"? 13 A Yes, your Honor, I certainly said that. 14 Q Did you tell Mr. Dandar, "I can't believe you're 15 asking us to do such a stupid thing"? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q And what did he say? What did -- 18 A Well -- 19 Q -- Mr. Dandar say? 20 A In fact -- in fact, I had, even before that 21 started, to say to Mr. Minton, "Stop funding this case, we 22 need to get away from it as far as we can." And to 23 Mr. Dandar, you know, "You cannot keep asking Mr. Minton -- 24 especially him -- to lie. You know, he's getting in worse 25 and worse and worse trouble. And you know, don't keep Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 162 1 asking him for money because all it's doing is getting him 2 into more and more and more depositions where he's having to 3 lie more and more." 4 Q What did he say? 5 A "Stop asking him for money." 6 Q What did Mr. Dandar say? 7 A He went like this. 8 Q That same -- 9 A The same thing. 10 MR. FUGATE: The gesture, for the record? 11 THE WITNESS: It was a gesture. 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q But he didn't say anything? 14 A He said, "That's up to Bob." 15 You know, this whole thing came up that -- then it 16 came about that Mr. Dandar and his group of people were 17 feeling that I was manipulating Mr. Minton and that I was, 18 you know, having some sort of sinister influence over him, 19 for reasons which I -- have never really been clear to me. 20 But there was this whole thing and, you know, that I was 21 doing something really bad to be trying to get Mr. Minton to 22 stop his funding of the case and to stop this -- you know, I 23 don't think that other people were aware of the fact that 24 this perjury was going on, because I certainly wasn't saying 25 a word about it to anybody else except for Mr. Minton and Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 163 1 Mr. Dandar. And -- but there was a -- there was a 2 deposition on August 15th, 1999 -- no, I'm sorry -- 2000 -- 3 was it '99 or 2000? Just a minute. I'll tell you. 4 FROM THE GALLERY: 2001. 5 A August, 2001. Sorry. 6 THE COURT: Who -- who in the world is giving 7 her answers back there? Please. 8 A On August 15th, 2001. Okay. So that was after. 9 So I'm sorry. I was mixed up. 10 I'll go back to the December, 2000 time. 11 Mr. Dandar had -- 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q Okay. Let -- I've written down a wrong date here 14 now. 15 A Yeah. Forget the August 15th. I'll get to that 16 in a minute. 17 Q Okay. So what are we going back to? 18 A We're going back to December, 2000. 19 Q 12-2000. I got you. 20 A That was when Bob signed the affidavit that said 21 there was no agreement. I believe that was the same time as 22 Liebreich signed an affidavit that there was no agreement. 23 And I think it was shortly after that that Mr. Dandar filed 24 a motion attacking those two pleadings -- I mean, those two 25 affidavits, asserting that there was no agreement. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 164 1 Well, you know, I was starting to feel like 2 Mr. Minton was getting set up to be royally shafted. 3 Q Good choice of words. I had another one. I was 4 waiting to see if you could find -- 5 A I was thinking of something else. 6 Q I'll bet you were. 7 A I began to feel that way very strongly. And you 8 know, Mr. Minton felt very strongly about this cause, 9 that -- about being against Scientology. He felt very, very 10 strongly about it. And he was providing funding -- 11 Q I'm sorry. I was coughing. He was what? 12 A He was providing funding to Mr. Dandar without 13 asking for any accounting of what was being done with the 14 money; despite the fact that he was being put into grave 15 legal danger by doing so. And I began to feel that he was 16 being sold down the river. And -- 17 Q This was -- are we back now to this 12-2000 thing? 18 A We're moving a little further from there. 19 Q After -- 20 A We're moving into the future -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- from December, 2000. 23 Q What was it that happened in December, 2000? What 24 was the point of that date? 25 A He signed that false affidavit. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 165 1 Q Oh, okay. 2 A And then -- okay, this is into -- now we're -- now 3 we're moving into 2001. Now things are falling apart to 4 such a degree that it's a nightmare. Because now 5 Scientology has started to, you know, depose me and demand 6 documents out of the Lisa McPherson Trust because 7 Scientology has now made the connection between the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust, all the witnesses that are, you know, being 9 paid at the Lisa McPherson Trust, all the people that are on 10 the advisory border -- I mean, that's basically -- 11 Mr. Minton had gathered up all of his Scientology critics 12 that he was helping in one way or another in litigation 13 against Scientology or in whatever other capacity he was 14 funding them, and it was all under the umbrella of the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust. You know, the witnesses for the Lisa 16 McPherson case worked for the Lisa McPherson Trust. 17 And you know, the two things had just -- well, you 18 know, Judge Beach, one day in a deposition, I almost had a 19 heart attack, he -- you know, we're trying so hard to keep 20 these things apart -- and Judge Beach says, you know, 21 "There's no --" this is Mr. Minton's depo that I was in -- 22 he said, "There's no difference between Mr. Minton and the 23 LMT, the Lisa McPherson case -- it's all the same." 24 And so now they started to be able to -- they 25 started making document demands at the LMT and -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 166 1 Q They being Scientology? 2 A Scientology. And I started evading discovery and 3 lying about our records, and -- 4 Q Why? 5 A -- and at that point -- 6 Q I mean, why? 7 A Why? 8 Q Why were you lying about your records? I mean, 9 was there anything -- 10 A Because I'll tell you why. 11 Q -- was there anything illegal about LMT? 12 A You know what? I wasn't sure if there was 13 anything in those records that could hurt the case or not. 14 And if there was any possibility that it would hurt the 15 case, we had to not give it to them. And so -- and you 16 know, Mr. Minton was doing everything possible to protect 17 the case; Mr. Dandar was doing everything possible to 18 protect the case; and -- and then I was doing everything 19 possible to protect the case; you know, not turning over, 20 you know -- you've seen all the stuff in the affidavit, you 21 know, the unedited videotape, the hard drives -- you know, I 22 had these hard drives -- well, Mr. Minton and I both -- got 23 these hard drives removed, you know, about a half an hour 24 before the judge ordered that these -- maybe it was you -- 25 Q I don't think it was because I don't remember Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 167 1 doing that. 2 A Maybe it was Judge Quesada. But in any case, you 3 know, about half an hour before the judge ordered that 4 nothing could be taken out of the LMT, we're getting the 5 hard drives out of the computers and shipping them off. I 6 mean, you know -- 7 Q But why? I guess I just -- I'm just beside myself 8 trying to figure out why? Was there something illegal about 9 LMT? And I'm talking now about was it doing drugs, was it 10 doing some criminal activity, was there something wrong with 11 it? 12 A No, your Honor. 13 Q It was set up to -- to -- to be what? An 14 anti-Scientology organization? 15 A It was set up to expose the deceptive and abusive 16 processes of Scientology. 17 Q Okay. And then -- so there was nothing illegal 18 about that. 19 A No. 20 Q I mean, that's free speech. It was set up as a 21 for-profit organization, as I remember. If there was an 22 agreement, if there was an agreement that said that, golly, 23 if the aunts of Lisa McPherson got a bundle of money, 24 they'll contribute to this group so that they would have 25 some money, there isn't anything illegal about that, that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 168 1 you knew of? 2 A Right. 3 Q Well, then what in the -- what in the hell were 4 you hiding stuff for? 5 A Because Mr. Dandar was so adamant about not 6 letting Scientology delve into the connection between the 7 LMT and the case. He was so adamant about -- 8 Q Well, you're a smart woman. 9 A Yeah. Well -- 10 Q You sit here today, and I'm listening to you and 11 you're as bright as you can be. You're a smart, bright 12 woman. If he had said that to you, didn't you ever say, 13 "We're crazy and we're not going to lie and put ourselves in 14 jeopardy for your crazy thoughts? I'm not going to do it 15 and Bob's not going to do it." I mean, you know, it's hard 16 for me to envision, ma'am, why you'd lie, destroy things 17 about an entity that's legal. 18 And you must understand that this is 19 extraordinarily frustrating for a court. Why you'd lie 20 about an entity that's, as far as I know, legal, about money 21 that might be coming to it which is legal. I don't know any 22 reason in the world why a smart person like you -- and I 23 have to guess Mr. Minton's a smart man -- would lie, destroy 24 stuff, subject yourself to the -- to the wrath of the court, 25 for what? Mr. Dandar and his -- his supposition that this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 169 1 was going to hurt the case? 2 A Yes, your Honor. 3 Q You believed him? 4 A No. You see, you have to understand. It goes 5 back to the thing that I was telling you about before, which 6 is the state of mind of the fraternity of critics; that, you 7 know -- 8 Q Who -- who is in that fraternity? I mean, the 9 ones that I know of that are connected with this case. 10 Jesse Prince? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q You? 13 A Yeah. 14 Q Your ex-husband? 15 A Yeah. Lots of other people. The people -- the 16 people that are named in paragraph -- let me see. 17 Q Can you include Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar and 18 Mr. Garko in that, Scientology critics? 19 A Mr. Minton. 20 Q The fraternity? 21 A Mr. Minton. 22 Q Okay. 23 A On paragraph 18. 24 Q Okay. 25 A There's a bunch of people named in there. There's Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 170 1 some others that are in the courtroom right now. You know, 2 and these people could feel that right now what I'm doing 3 right now is so treasonous; you know, they are so mad at me 4 for getting up here and telling the truth about this stuff, 5 I can't even begin to tell you. 6 Q Who are they? 7 A Because I have sold out the Lisa McPherson case; I 8 have sold out Ken Dandar, who is the hero of the critic 9 community, because he's the attorney for the Lisa McPherson 10 case. And -- and that is the perspective that this group of 11 people has. We were part of this group of people. And the 12 idea that I would sit there in front of Kendrick Moxon, you 13 know, who is the enemy, and -- and give him our documents 14 out of the Lisa McPherson Trust or that -- you know, that we 15 would actually tell him the truth about what we were 16 doing -- it just wasn't an option. 17 I mean, it just -- it was -- you know, we were 18 part of a very, very, very tightknit group of people with a 19 very, very strong purpose: To destroy Scientology. And it 20 was -- it was a cause. It was a cause. And you know, 21 Mr. Dandar took advantage of that, I feel. And -- and put 22 Mr. -- Mr. Minton and me in a position where we were 23 basically being held hostage to this case. Because he knew 24 we had lied in deposition; he knew that these things had 25 happened. I was begging him to stop asking Mr. Minton for Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 171 1 any more money. I was begging him to -- to let us go. He 2 wouldn't do it. Finally in -- finally in August, 2001 -- 3 Q Why didn't you go back to New Hampshire, wherever 4 Mr. Minton is, and say, "See ya, sayonara, bye." 5 A Why didn't he do that? 6 Q Yeah. Why didn't you both do that. 7 A Well, I -- okay. So now, starting August 15th, 8 2001 was when this nightmare started to get really bad for 9 me. Because there was a deposition -- 10 Q Now we're up to August, 2000 -- 11 A Now we're almost done. There was a deposition of 12 me, and it was in Tampa, and I think Mr. Moxon was the 13 attorney. He usually was. And Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 14 Dr. Garko were also in this deposition. And Judge Beach was 15 in the deposition. And this was -- and I had been 16 ordered -- subpoenaed to bring all kind of records. And I 17 appeared in this and I walked into this deposition and I 18 didn't bring anything. I don't think I brought -- maybe I 19 brought some -- you know, something, but nothing substantive 20 at all. And -- 21 Judge Beach sat there in that deposition and told 22 me that if he ordered me to turn over documents and I didn't 23 do it, he was going to put me in jail. 24 Well, I went to the moon. I was so scared. 25 'Cause, you know, it really finally hit me, you know, what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 172 1 kind of -- what kind of situation that we were really 2 putting ourselves in. You know, we were about to go to jail 3 for this case. And -- and even if we did go to jail for the 4 case, it wasn't going to save the case, because it was 5 already so off the rails with all of this stuff that was 6 going on. 7 Q Did you ever, in your smartest -- I mean, as I 8 said, I look at you and I look at you as a -- as a bright 9 woman who is very articulate, who -- who I don't know what 10 your level of education, but you certainly sound like -- did 11 it ever occur to you that once you said -- took the tack 12 that you're taking now, which is boy, this is a bunch of 13 lies, that somebody like me might not be most upset? 14 A You know, your Honor -- 15 Q Or did you think that I'd say, "Well, finally 16 we're all getting to the truth of this" and I'd just be 17 happy as a clam? I mean, did you ever think -- 18 A I thought -- I'll tell you what I thought. I 19 thought that I was in a very, very untenable position. 20 Because now I was faced with a choice. Either I could start 21 telling the truth -- and in my mind, that was going to 22 derail the case. Mr. Dandar was telling Mr. Minton at every 23 opportunity that it would derail the case. Don't tell them 24 about those checks. Don't tell them about the secret 25 agreement. You know, so -- so either we could tell the Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 173 1 truth and derail this thing, which was, you know, considered 2 by the critic community to be -- to be the symbol of, you 3 know, truth and justice for Lisa McPherson and against 4 Scientology. 5 And you know -- and you know, by now I was feeling 6 very differently about it. But Mr. Minton was still feeling 7 that way. 8 And -- and so either we could start telling the 9 truth and derail the case or we could go to jail. And from 10 August 15th forward, that's the way I started seeing it. 11 And so I went up to New Hampshire after that 12 deposition, and I asked Mr. Minton if I could please call 13 Dell Liebreich and tell her what was going on. 14 Q When was this, ma'am? 15 A This was later in August. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I think. 18 Q 2001? 19 A 2001. It was after that deposition, because I was 20 so freaked out. 21 And you know, I said, There is no way Dell 22 Liebreich knows that this is going on. If she knew this was 23 going on, she would never allow it to happen. She will drop 24 this case. Because you know, the only way we could get out 25 of it was for -- for the case to get dropped. Otherwise, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 174 1 you know, we were going to go to jail, or the case was going 2 to get derailed and be a mess, or -- you know, the only way 3 it could -- could end cleanly would be to drop it, you know. 4 And so Bob said, you know, "Shoot, they won't drop 5 it," you know, whatever. I said, you know, "You got to let 6 me try." 7 Well, you know, it -- Bob -- Mr. Minton's attitude 8 was, "She already knows everything that's going on and she's 9 not going to drop the case to save me or you." 10 Well, I called her and -- 11 And I had discussed this earlier with Jesse Prince 12 and Teresa Summers, who were -- was another woman who used 13 to work at the LMT. And I told her -- 14 Q "Discussed this." We're talking about -- 15 A The idea of calling Dell -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- and asking her to do this. 18 And -- but in any case, so I called her and -- and 19 I asked her if we could meet. I asked -- actually, I -- I 20 believe I asked her if I could fly to Texas to talk to her. 21 And she said, "Well, will Ken be there?" And I said, "Well, 22 I'd really prefer to talk to you alone." And she said, 23 "Well, okay. Come on then." Or something like that. 24 Q When was this call, do you remember? 25 A This was later in August of 2001. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 175 1 Q After -- sometime in August, but after your 2 deposition? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And then she called me back. I mean, you know, I 6 was so nervous doing this. This was like -- this was so -- 7 I mean, for the critic community, for me to call Dell 8 Liebreich and ask her to drop the wrongful death case was 9 the most horrific thing I could possibly do. And so I was 10 very nervous about this. But I felt like we had to do it, 11 because I was -- you know, by this time I had had many, 12 many, many conversations with Mr. Dandar in which I had told 13 him that it was a terrible thing, what he was doing; that he 14 was continuing this thing at -- at the risk -- and putting 15 Mr. Minton at such a risk. 16 Q Did you ask him to call Ms. Liebreich and drop the 17 case? Did you ask him to drop the case? 18 A Yes. I had talked to him about it. And he 19 said -- you know, "This is -- this is a just and noble thing 20 that we're doing, and this has to continue forward. We have 21 to get justice for Lisa McPherson." And you know, all this 22 pious thing, that, by then, I didn't feel had anything 23 whatsoever to do with his motivation in this case. 24 So I called her and I asked her this. And you 25 know, this was a fairly major threshold that I'd crossed in Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 176 1 this whole process. Because at that point, I became 2 deliberately and consciously against this lawsuit. And -- 3 and then she called back and said, "No, no, no. We can't do 4 it. I talked to Ken and, you know, he doesn't want me to 5 talk to you and I don't want to talk to you." And -- and, 6 you know, she was very distraught. 7 Q You didn't ask her to drop -- you had just asked 8 to meet with her alone -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- and she said she could not do that. 11 A Right. 12 Q Okay. 13 A Right. 14 Q Did you tell her why you wanted to meet with her? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. 17 A I didn't. But later I had a conversation with Ken 18 Dandar, which was that -- you know, "I knew you wanted to 19 talk to her about dropping the case, and I told her not to 20 talk to you about that." And, you know, let me tell you, 21 she knows everything that's going on in this case and -- 22 Q But you're past where we need to go. That's for 23 another time, for another question. 24 A Okay. Sorry. 25 Okay. So then when that happened, then I said, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 177 1 you know, these people -- I mean, Mr. Dandar and 2 Ms. Liebreich do not care what happens to Bob Minton or me. 3 And -- and -- and I said that to Bob Minton. And I said, 4 "You have got -- we have got to distance ourself from this 5 case in every possible way. I've got to tell Jesse to 6 withdraw as an expert witness; you have got to stop giving 7 him any more money. I'm withdrawing as a witness. We have 8 to -- we have to withdraw in every way we possibly can to -- 9 so that the court will stop letting Scientology depose us 10 and get discovery of us." 11 And so -- and so Mr. Minton and I called Jesse 12 Prince and told him that he had to withdraw as an expert 13 witness immediately. That day. And he did. 14 Q This was the same day as you made the phone call 15 to Ms. Liebreich? 16 A The next day. The next day, because I called her 17 at night. And then Mr. Minton and I talked about this into 18 the night, trying to figure out what to do. 19 And it -- you know, it still wasn't an option that 20 we were going to come in to court and start recanting. It 21 just wasn't. 22 It just wasn't. 23 We were going to try to distance ourselves from it 24 so that we could get protection so that it could move 25 forward without hurting us. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 178 1 And so then -- 2 THE COURT: Feel free to step into the 3 question, if you want, but it seems like she's 4 giving a narrative that goes to the issue, so -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Better than I asking questions, 6 your Honor. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Okay. 9 A So then Mr. Dandar decided to file a motion for 10 severe sanctions against Scientology for -- because his 11 expert witnesses had had to withdraw, because he was in such 12 fear of Scientology. 13 Well, so then he has Mr. Prince -- he -- he draws 14 up an affidavit from Mr. Prince which basically summarizes 15 his trial that he had just -- the criminal trial that 16 Mr. Prince had just gone through for drugs. And basically 17 Mr. Dandar did a motion that, you know, described that whole 18 thing and that Scientology was setting up as expert. And so 19 because of that Mr. Prince withdrew in fear of more 20 harassment, stuff like that. 21 Well, Mr. Prince withdrew because Mr. Minton and I 22 told him to. 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. This is all -- she's 24 not competent for anything why Mr. Prince withdrew. 25 THE COURT: Well, she's competent to say what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 179 1 she told Mr. Prince, and then we'll hear from 2 Mr. Prince, I guess. 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q What did you tell Mr. Prince as far as -- 5 A I said, "Jesse, you've got to withdraw it, you've 6 got to resign from this case immediately. You know, you've 7 got to write a letter to Ken telling him that you're 8 withdrawing as an expert witness right away." Well, you 9 know -- okay -- 10 Q And then you said that this affidavit -- did you 11 see the affidavit -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- that Mr. Prince signed? 14 A After he signed it, he brought it in and showed it 15 to me and -- 16 Q When was that? And where? 17 A In my office in the LMT -- 18 Q Okay. 19 A You know, it must have been in September. Because 20 all of these things happened in pretty rapid succession by 21 now. 22 And -- I can't remember what else I was going to 23 say about that, but in any case -- 24 THE COURT: You can stop if you want and you 25 can go on to whatever question you want. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 180 1 The -- I don't want the record to suggest that 2 this witness knows what the motion for severe 3 sanctions is all about. Quite frankly, that's not 4 how I read the motion for severe sanctions. 5 It was because of what Mr. Dandar alleged was 6 wrongdoing on the part of the church as it pertained 7 to Mr. Prince. And my -- my order, which has yet to 8 be signed, that -- because we can't seem to agree on 9 the order because I was, quite frankly, trying to 10 make it fairly to keep the peace -- was because I 11 had found that the church had -- had acted 12 improperly in that criminal episode against 13 Mr. Prince. That's the order regarding severe 14 sanctions that I mean to sign when I can get around 15 it to. 16 That was what they said. As far as Mr. Prince 17 and his -- his reason for not being a witness, I 18 never bought it. Didn't buy it at that hearing, 19 don't buy it to this day. I think that if 20 Mr. Dandar wants to use Mr. Prince as a witness in 21 this case, he'll testify gladly. 22 I've said it before, I'll say it again: If 23 he -- if he can stand the baggage when this case 24 goes to trial -- by that I mean the lawyer -- 25 whoever the lawyer might be for the case, well, I Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 181 1 believe, Mr. Prince will be here with bells on. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, the significance of it is, 3 as far as I'm concerned, not direct -- 4 THE COURT: That's not important. It certainly 5 isn't important in front of this witness. You can 6 tell me at the close of the case. 7 I just didn't want the record to suggest that 8 whatever this witness thinks about anything is 9 necessarily what it was or what was presented to 10 this court. She wasn't here. She doesn't know. 11 She doesn't know what argument was made. She 12 certainly doesn't know about my order, which hasn't 13 been signed yet. So, you know. 14 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Well, what -- did you direct -- did you and 17 Mr. Minton direct Mr. Prince to no longer be an expert 18 witness for Mr. Dandar? 19 A Yes. We ordered him to resign immediately. 20 Q And was he still being paid by funds from either 21 Mr. Minton or LMT at this point in history? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did he tell you that he had withdrawn as an 24 expert witness? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 182 1 Q And did you -- when I say you, LMT or Mr. Minton, 2 continue to pay him? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And did until when? 5 A Well, the last time he got paid was a check from 6 me on April 4th of this year. 7 Q And so he had showed -- all you're saying is he 8 showed you an affidavit saying he was withdrawing for a 9 different reason, and you didn't believe -- I take it you 10 didn't believe that reason to be true. 11 A No. That's not what happened. 12 Q Okay. What happened? 13 A He showed me an affidavit which detailed his 14 criminal trial. And the thing that was upsetting about the 15 affidavit was that all through his criminal trial he'd never 16 admitted to drug use, but now with Mr. Dandar having him 17 sign an affidavit in which he admits drug use -- you know, 18 and he didn't get found not guilty in that criminal trial; 19 he got null-prossed. 20 And so Mr. Minton and I had a fit that he'd signed 21 this thing. 22 THE COURT: What happened? Was that a hung 23 jury? 24 THE WITNESS: It was a hung jury. 25 MR. FUGATE: Hung jury. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 183 1 THE COURT: And they elected to drop it. 2 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It was a mistrial. 3 MR. FUGATE: That's what I understand. 4 THE COURT: I'd forgotten. 5 A So, you know, "Really, Jesse, are you nuts? 6 You've just totally exposed yourself to reprosecution on 7 this thing if somebody decides that's what they want to do." 8 And so Jesse had a fit and he's all, "Oh, my God. I didn't 9 realize that. That's terrible. We have to go talk to Denis 10 DeVlaming," you know, and this whole thing. 11 That's what the affidavit was about. It was 12 about, you know, this whole, you know, thing of his drugs. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q But it also said something about his withdrawing 15 because he was fearful of harassment and no longer wanted to 16 be an expert for Mr. Dandar. Did you know that to be the 17 case? 18 MR. LIROT: Leading question, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 MR. FUGATE: Let's move on, Judge, so we can -- 21 THE COURT: Good. Thank you. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Ms. -- 24 THE COURT: The part of the affidavit that 25 Mr. Prince signed that dealt with what -- what Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 184 1 Mr. Prince alleged had happened to him in his 2 criminal trial as far as impropriety on the part of 3 the church, is that the part you're saying is false 4 or is what you're saying is false is that part where 5 he stated under oath why he wanted to withdraw as a 6 witness because he was afraid? 7 THE WITNESS: Right. That part. 8 THE COURT: That part? 9 THE WITNESS: That part. 10 THE COURT: The first part, you're not 11 suggesting was false. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: No. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q At or about this same time frame that this 17 affidavit by Mr. Prince was signed, had Mr. Minton, to your 18 knowledge, communicated to Mr. Dandar that he wasn't going 19 to fund him anymore? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And did there come a time in that -- I think if 22 I'm correct, where I think we are is August, September of 23 2001 -- did there come a time after that where you know that 24 Mr. Minton gave additional funding to Mr. Dandar? 25 A Yes. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 185 1 Q Can you tell us about that? 2 A Can -- I just want to mention one thing that 3 happened in October with Judge Baird that led up to this. 4 Q All right. 5 A The first time that Mr. Minton started to get that 6 his commitment to the case began to crack, I suppose would 7 be the way to put it, was in October of 2001 when Judge 8 Baird almost put him in jail. And he was evading discovery 9 and trying everything he could think of to keep from having 10 to answer these questions in deposition about these checks 11 and all this stuff. And you know, to the point where at one 12 point he refused to even go to Florida to testify in the 13 deposition. And I went into that hearing -- 14 THE COURT: I really don't think we have to go 15 here. No, you can't go there. You're going to 16 answer his question. Move to your question. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q Well, was there a time -- and this will get to the 20 next question -- was there a time when Mr. Minton took the 21 Fifth Amendment or invoked the Fifth Amendment privilege in 22 some deposition or a deposition? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And was there ever a discussion about the 25 questions that he had invoked the Fifth Amendment on, with Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 186 1 Mr. Dandar, that you were present? 2 A Yes. With regard to the checks. 3 Q Can you tell us about that? When and where was 4 it? 5 A We were in New Hampshire. 6 Q And approximately when was it? 7 A As I recall. 8 Sometime in the fall of 2001. Perhaps September. 9 Early October. I don't remember when his deposition was 10 exactly. 11 Q And what was the discussion? 12 A Mr. Minton was saying -- 13 MR. LIROT: Who was the discussion with? 14 THE COURT: Mr. Minton -- 15 THE WITNESS: Mr. -- 16 THE COURT: And Mr. Dandar, I think she -- 17 I'm sorry. Maybe she didn't say. Who was the 18 discussion with? 19 MR. FUGATE: I thought she did, but -- 20 THE COURT: I thought she did. 21 MR. FUGATE: -- who was the discussion with? 22 THE WITNESS: It was with the three of us. I 23 was in the room with Mr. Minton. 24 EXAMINATION 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 187 1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q And all you said was the Fifth Amendment regarding 3 the checks. I don't know what checks we're talking about? 4 What checks? 5 A There were two checks that Mr. Minton gave to 6 Mr. Dandar. 7 Q The $500,000 check and the 250 -- 8 A I'm sorry, there was one check at that time. 9 Q One check. Okay. 10 A It was the 500,000. 11 Q So I know what check you're talking about now. 12 A Yeah. 13 And you know, Mr. Dandar said, "Just concentrate 14 on the checks you wrote. Just concentrate on the checks you 15 wrote." 16 Well, I understood that to mean and Mr. Minton 17 understood that to mean that -- 18 Q Don't tell us what Mr. Minton understood it to 19 mean. You can tell us what you understood it to mean and 20 anything he may have said, but you can't get inside his 21 head. 22 A Okay. I understood it to mean that he was not to 23 talk about that $500,000 check. So Mr. Minton went into the 24 deposition and pled the Fifth Amendment on those questions 25 and a number of other questions. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 188 1 Q Who told him to do that, if you know? If you 2 know. If you don't know, you don't know. 3 A Well, I believe it was a decision between 4 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Merritt, but I don't know for sure. 5 Q Okay. Well, you seem to be normally around 6 Mr. Minton. 7 A Right. 8 Q Did Mr. Minton get a phone call from someone or -- 9 or what? I mean -- 10 A Well -- 11 Q Were you party to that -- privy to this 12 conversation? 13 A He spoke on the phone with Mr. Dandar and 14 Mr. Merrett. 15 MR. FUGATE: He being Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. 17 About what by now was a pretty serious effort 18 to avoid answering these questions. 19 BY THE COURT: 20 Q Why -- okay. Tell me this: We just talked about 21 how foolish it was to -- I hope you realize now how foolish 22 it was -- 23 A Yes, your Honor, I do. 24 Q -- to try to hide this agreement and try to hide 25 whatever this -- if it was legitimate, if -- if LMT was Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 189 1 legitimate -- I don't know if it was or not. You said it 2 was -- but if it was and if there was nothing wrong with the 3 agreement, how silly it was to tell a bunch of lies about 4 that. 5 What's the deal with the checks? What's -- why is 6 somebody going to take the Fifth Amendment over a check? 7 Why is somebody not going to talk about a check? What in 8 Mr. Minton's mind or your mind, when you and he talked, was 9 wrong with that? 10 A With the check? 11 Q Where you lie about it, take the Fifth Amendment. 12 Fifth Amendment says I'm going not going to incriminate 13 myself. What was the problem with him writing a check to 14 Mr. Dandar for $500,000? 15 A Well, in fact, there wasn't anything wrong with 16 it. But Mr. Dandar was trying to downplay -- this is my 17 understanding -- two things -- 18 Q Well, were you there when Mr. Dandar talked to 19 Mr. Minton about it? 20 A Yes. But not -- but this is my understanding -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- this isn't what he said. 23 Q Well, that may -- we better hear what he said. 24 A What he said was, "Just testify about the checks 25 you wrote." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 190 1 Q Okay. Now, I guess what I'm asking you now, then, 2 is, why would anybody think there's something wrong with it? 3 Criminal. Criminal. Fifth Amendment, we think of as 4 somebody saying, "I don't want to incriminate myself." 5 A Well, I can tell you that Mr. Dandar told 6 Mr. Minton that he hadn't told the court about it and so 7 Mr. Minton shouldn't tell the court about it either. He had 8 also -- he also told Mr. Minton that he hadn't told his 9 trial team about this money and that he was telling his 10 trial team that he was using money out of his retirement 11 fund to fund the case and that he didn't want them to know 12 that he was getting this money from Mr. Minton. 13 Q So Mr. Minton was willing to lie to a court of law 14 to keep Mr. Dandar's employees from finding out about a 15 check? 16 A No. No. But -- 17 Q Does Mr. Minton care that little for the truth? 18 A No. No. But again, he was trying to protect 19 Mr. Dandar; he was trying to protect the case. It took 20 quite an enormous amount of pressure being put on him and me 21 for us to make the decision to break with the critic 22 community and come forward and tell the truth. It took an 23 enormous, enormous amount of pressure on us to -- to -- 24 Q Pressure brought on you by whom? 25 A By the courts, by -- by the courts. You know, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 191 1 this is why I was bringing up this thing about Judge Baird 2 in October. Because Mr. Minton was so distraught about the 3 possibility that Judge Baird was going to put him in jail 4 for contempt for all of his discovery abuse that he began to 5 crack about this whole situation. And so that by December, 6 when Mr. Dandar again approached him for more funding and -- 7 you know, really Mr. Minton and I, by that time, were 8 basically staying in his house in New Hampshire and never 9 going out. You know, we were so -- we were in such a state 10 of fear about this situation that we had now gotten 11 ourselves into. 12 And also all of the attacks that were happening 13 from the critics because of Mr. Minton no longer funding the 14 wrongful death case. 15 Q But he was funding the wrongful death case. 16 A No. He had said in -- he had informed Mr. Dandar 17 in August or September that he was no longer going to fund 18 the case. And Mr. Dandar -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Of 2001? 20 THE WITNESS: Of 2001. I'm sorry. 21 A And Mr. Dandar had these people on the Internet 22 that he was having post -- 23 MR. LIROT: Objection. Foundation. 24 A This is my -- this was his belief and my belief. 25 THE COURT: All right. Then I'll sustain. If Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 192 1 you don't know that, then you can't -- 2 THE WITNESS: Okay. 3 A So anyway, Judge Baird -- I mean, it was -- you 4 know, he had to post a $20,000 bond. Sandy Rosen was the 5 attorney who was trying to -- everything he could to get the 6 judge to put him in jail for coercive, whatever, 7 incarceration. And it was only, you know, by the skin of 8 his teeth that he avoided sitting in jail for a week before 9 the deposition went forward. 10 Well -- so then Mr. Dandar in December started 11 calling and, you know, saying, "Look --" 12 BY THE COURT: 13 Q December of -- 14 A Of 2001. Just now. 15 Q Okay. 16 A And started saying, you know, "I need more money, 17 you need to help, you've just got to help he me out, this 18 kind of stuff." And I was up in New Hampshire with 19 Mr. Minton, and I was saying, "Don't you dare give him any 20 more money. Don't even think about it. Do not give him 21 another penny." And Mr. Minton was telling Mr. Dandar, you 22 know, "No, I can't do it," whatever. 23 Now we're going into January. Mr. Dandar wants 24 Mr. Minton to meet him. And I know about this because I was 25 there and I heard these conversations. He wants him to meet Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 193 1 him in Nashville. He wants him to meet him in the Cayman 2 Islands. You know, "Please, please." He's e-mailing him. 3 He's -- and I saw the e-mails. "Please, you know -- please, 4 you can't let me down. You know, you've got to come through 5 for the case." You know, this kind of thing. All caps, you 6 know. E-mail all caps. 7 And Bob is like, "Oh, God, you know, this is 8 terrible." And I'm saying, you know, "Don't give him any 9 more money. He doesn't care what's going to happen to you. 10 He's only trying to get more money, you know, for his own 11 reasons." And I was totally -- had a break with Mr. Dandar 12 by that time. 13 And so finally, Mr. Minton said, you know, if you 14 want to come up to see me at my house in New Hampshire, you 15 can. And that's when -- 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Did -- did Mr. Dandar come up to New Hampshire? 19 A Yes, he did. 20 Q When was that? 21 A I think it was the last weekend -- weekend in 22 February, and he brought Dr. Garko with him. 23 Q What happened at that meeting? 24 A The first thing -- pretty much the first thing 25 that happened was Mr. Minton absolutely broke down and got Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 194 1 hysterical. He was crying. You know, he was very, very, 2 very distraught about feeling that he couldn't trust -- 3 sorry, it's making me shiver -- that he couldn't trust 4 Mr. Dandar; he couldn't trust Dell Liebreich; he couldn't 5 trust the estate. That he felt like he was being used. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q This is February of 2002? 9 A Yeah. Just now. 10 That he felt that Mr. Dandar had this group of 11 people that were -- that had launched a smear campaign 12 against him on the Internet. 13 Your Honor, you probably don't frequent the 14 Internet very much, but -- 15 Q I'm petrified to even think about looking on one 16 of these here now Internet. I might like to look just to 17 see, but I'm afraid somebody might turn it into something 18 suspicious in this case. So I have never looked. I'd like 19 to. If the lawyers give me permission, I wouldn't mind 20 fishing around and seeing what in the world's out there, but 21 I'm afraid somebody's -- 22 Q You can't even -- 23 Q -- going to make it -- 24 A You couldn't even believe it. You couldn't 25 believe what you'd see. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 195 1 This newsgroup, ARS -- 2 MR. LIROT: Just listening. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: Sit down, Counselor. If you've got 5 an objection -- if you don't, sit down. 6 A This newsgroup, alt.religion.scientology, is a 7 place -- it's where Mr. Minton first found out about 8 Scientology. You know, he frequents it all the time. It's, 9 you know, for the critics -- 10 BY THE COURT: 11 Q What is it? 12 A It's a newsgroup. It's sort of like a bulletin 13 board. It's sort of like an electronic bulletin board. 14 People go in there and post messages. And then somebody can 15 go in and post a response to that message and then somebody 16 else can and then somebody else can and then you end up 17 with, you know, sometimes a hundred or more, basically, 18 conversations going on about a subject. 19 And you know, I have asked Mr. Minton, so many 20 times, "Please, stop looking at this stuff." But you know, 21 he's -- he's an Internet person. And you know, all these 22 critics go on this thing and, you know, he wants to see what 23 they're saying. 24 So it's a very good place to go to attack him, if 25 you want to upset him. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 196 1 And so from the time that Mr. Minton informed 2 Mr. Dandar that he was longer in the wrongful death case, 3 that was in September, I think, of 2001, a campaign was 4 launched on this newsgroup that was saying very, very 5 hurtful things about Mr. Minton, about me, about the LMT, 6 you know, about how -- 7 Q Like what? I mean, a lot of money had been given. 8 What was -- what was being said? 9 A You know -- God, you'd have to read these things 10 to believe it. That, you know, Mr. Minton was working for 11 Scientology all along; that he was selling everybody out 12 from the very beginning; that I was an agent for 13 Scientology; that, you know, we were betraying everybody; 14 that the Lisa McPherson case was the most important thing in 15 the world and that we were doing everything we could to 16 destroy the case now. And you know, this may not sound like 17 terrible things to you, but after what Mr. Minton had done 18 for the case, it was very hurtful to him. Particularly to 19 feel that Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar was encouraging -- at 20 least encouraging this. 21 Q But you have no way of knowing that. 22 A Yes, we did. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Yes, we did. 25 Q How was that? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 197 1 A Because the people who were writing these things 2 were posting that they were talking to Mr. Dandar. 3 Q What does that mean, posting? I don't understand 4 the Internet. 5 A Posting means you write a thing on your computer 6 and then you punch a button that says "send now" and it gets 7 posted. You know, like if you take a piece of paper and 8 post it on the bulletin board? You send it electronically 9 and it gets posted on this newsgroup. And then once it's 10 posted, everybody else all over the world, they log on -- 11 Q I mean, are they saying -- I guess what I'm asking 12 you is, you said, yes, we do know. Is that -- is that 13 because it was saying that -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- Ken Dandar says -- 16 A Yes. 17 Q Well, these -- these people that were saying these 18 awful things, surely you didn't -- didn't necessarily -- you 19 didn't believe anything else they were saying, why did you 20 believe that? 21 A It wasn't -- 22 Why do we believe that they were talking to Ken 23 Dandar? 24 Q Yeah. 25 A Just from the things that they were writing, it Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 198 1 looked like he really was giving them information and giving 2 this one woman permission to start a -- a -- a thing on -- 3 on the Internet to try to raise funds -- 4 Q Did he tell you he was that desperate to get more 5 money? 6 A Mm-hmm. 7 Q Did he tell you he was pretty desperate, that he 8 was running out of money? 9 A Oh, yes. 10 Q And he wasn't going to be able to continue the 11 case without it? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So you really felt he was desperate? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I think he really was. 17 So anyway, I was describing this conversation when 18 they came up to New Hampshire. 19 Q So what you had said, I think, is that Mr. Minton 20 broke down. 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you said he couldn't trust anybody and -- 23 A No. He said he couldn't trust -- 24 Q -- he couldn't trust Ken and couldn't trust 25 Ms -- trust Ms. Liebreich. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 199 1 A Yeah. And then -- sorry -- and then there were a 2 lot of conversations that were had. I had a very lengthy 3 conversation with Mr. Dandar, just the two of us, about some 4 of the attacks that have happened against me, against 5 Mr. Minton -- 6 Q What attack? I mean, I don't know what -- I don't 7 know what you're talking about. 8 A Smear campaign -- 9 Q On the Internet again? 10 A -- whispering campaign. 11 On the Internet and -- within the critic community 12 there, you know, I -- you know, I felt that there had been a 13 fairly concerted effort to drive a wedge between me and 14 other critics of Scientology, you know, sort of basically 15 to -- to isolate us. 16 Q What -- at this point in time -- 17 A From our friends. 18 Q -- you hadn't come forward and recanted. You'd 19 lied for the case. Mr. Minton had provided an inordinate 20 amount of money, more money that I can imagine. I mean, why 21 in the world would -- I mean, why would Mr. Dandar be 22 suggesting anything about this when everything you had done, 23 as you've just testified here, was at his request? And plus 24 a lot of money to boot. 25 A But -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 200 1 Q I mean, it doesn't make any sense. Why would you 2 think this? 3 A Why would I think what? 4 Q That Mr. Dandar was out trying to drive a edge 5 between the critics and you. 6 A Well, in fact, your Honor, it turned out to be the 7 truth, and he said so at -- in New Hampshire to us. 8 Q Well, why? Was it 'cause there was not enough -- 9 more money? 10 A Because he was trying to put -- I mean, this is my 11 belief. That -- 12 Q What did he say? 13 A -- he was trying to put pressure on Bob to 14 continue funding the case, and that he knew how important it 15 was to Bob to be well thought of in the critic community. 16 And he knew how bad it would make Bob feel that the whole 17 critic community was turning against him because he was 18 stopping the funding. 19 Q So in your mind the whole thing then, this whole 20 thing being done by Mr. Dandar, was wrapped around money -- 21 A Yes. 22 Q -- it wasn't as if you haven't -- you, Mr. Minton, 23 hadn't done plenty to help -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- to the tune of lying for him, as your testimony Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 201 1 is, to the tune of giving a whole slew of money. So you 2 think all this happened because Mr. Dandar, gee, he'd only 3 had 1.8 million at that time? 4 MR. FUGATE: I think it's 1.8-50 -- 5 THE COURT: -- 8-something. 6 MR. FUGATE: Yeah. 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q And he needed more. 9 A That's right. 10 So Mr. Dandar said, "Listen, I will get them to 11 stop this" -- 12 Q Who is -- who is they? I'll get them? 13 A These people that he had~-- 14 Q The Internet people. 15 A Yeah, the Internet people -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- that were posting this stuff. And he said, 18 "I'll get them to stop." I mean -- and in fact, later he 19 called -- he called to speak to Mr. Minton, but he was 20 asleep and I spoke to him. And he called to say, "Listen, 21 these people, the people that were doing all this posting 22 and everything, said that they'll stop doing it if you guys 23 will take a certain thing off of our Web site." You know 24 what a Web site is? 25 Q Mm-hmm. Well, I don't know if I do or not, but -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 202 1 A Well, it's just a place where people can go to get 2 information. 3 Q Right. What is "our Web site," though? 4 A The LMT Web site. 5 Q Okay. 6 A The LMT Web site. "If you guys will take this 7 stuff off of your Web site that they don't like." Well, I 8 wasn't sure that Mr. Minton would agree to do that, if I 9 asked him, so I made a unilateral decision to take it off -- 10 to have it taken off myself without asking him that. 11 We had it taken off and -- you couldn't believe 12 how instantly the criticism and the attacks stopped on the 13 Internet. 14 Q What Web site is this? The LMT Web site? 15 A We took some information off of our LMT Web 16 site -- 17 Q What information? 18 A It was some little snippets of this movie, The 19 Profit -- I don't know. 20 Q You mean you could actually watch some little 21 snippets? 22 A Like a minute. I think there were five one-minute 23 snippets of the movie. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And these people were really mad about those Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 203 1 snippets being up on the Web site. 2 Q Why? These are -- I don't even know who's who. 3 Are these the anti-Scientologists -- 4 A Yeah. 5 Q -- or the pro-Scientologists? 6 A The anti-Scientologists. 7 Q The anti-Scientologists. 8 A Listen, your Honor, the anti-Scientologists have 9 been angrier at us and more threatening at us and more 10 intimidating of us than Scientology ever even thought of 11 being. I'm not kidding. That's how we feel. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So you know, if we -- 14 Q There are those, you know, that might say the same 15 thing about Mr. Minton? 16 A About what? 17 Q About Mr. Minton. That he might -- that the -- he 18 was part of this antigroup, right? 19 A Yes. 20 Q They may say that he was just as dangerous anti as 21 the Scientologists were pro. 22 A You know, your Honor, the way I look at it now is, 23 this is -- you know, people have turned this whole thing 24 into a holy war, and both sides, you know, are dug in to 25 their perspective. And you know, what's needed in this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 204 1 whole thing is dialogue. That's how I feel about it. 2 Q Maybe what's needed is resolution. 3 A Resolution would be wonderful. But dialogue could 4 perhaps start that path. 5 In any case, at the end of that -- at tend of that 6 weekend Mr. Dandar -- when Mr. Minton broke down on 7 Saturday, I think Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko both realized 8 that Mr. Minton was seriously, seriously distraught about 9 the situation. And what Mr. Dandar did was, on Sunday 10 morning before they left, he got out the questions that you 11 had ordered Mr. Minton to answer that he had previously put 12 the Fifth Amendment to. He got out those questions and he 13 started coaching Mr. Minton on how to answer the questions. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A And this was in my presence. I saw this myself. 18 He was coaching Mr. Minton to answer the questions 19 untruthfully. 20 Q Like what? Which ones? 21 A Well, this is where this fat man thing came up. 22 For example -- 23 (There was an interruption in the proceedings.) 24 THE COURT: I'm not going to have it. 25 Mr. Bailiff, you go out there and you find out if Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 205 1 anybody else has got a phone on. Talk to them one 2 at a time. Next person whose phone goes off in this 3 courtroom is going to be barred permanently. I'm 4 not going to have it. If you've got a cell phone 5 out there, turn it off. 6 Go on ahead. 7 THE WITNESS: What was I saying? 8 MR. FUGATE: I don't even remember. That was 9 sort of an interesting tune. 10 I think you were talking about -- 11 THE COURT: It was, and that's why -- it's very 12 disconcerting, because out of the clear blue you 13 start thinking da-da, da-da, da-da-da-da-da-da. 14 MR. FUGATE: She was talking about -- I know 15 what she was talking about. She was talking 16 about -- 17 You were talking about Mr. Dandar -- 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, coaching. 19 MR. FUGATE: Going through the questions. 20 THE WITNESS: The coaching. Oh, yeah. And you 21 wanted to know an example. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 THE WITNESS: And I said, "This is where the 24 fat man came up." 25 THE COURT: Right. The fat man came up. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 206 1 BY THE COURT: 2 Q I only care about coaching, I suppose, on issues 3 that have been brought to my attention that may be relevant 4 to what I'm doing. That would be as to the money and as to 5 the agreement and as to -- I don't know, you can -- I know 6 the money and the agreement. If there's something else, you 7 can raise it. 8 A The money. 9 Q The money meaning the two checks, that there was 10 nothing wrong with it. 11 A There were -- 12 Q At that time was there two checks? 13 A Well, there weren't two checks yet. There 14 weren't -- 15 Q Okay. One check. 16 A -- two checks until a couple days later. But 17 there was -- there were questions that were going to that 18 issue, and then there were also questions that were going to 19 the issue of funds to the LMT. 20 Q Okay. Let's talk about the check. And you said 21 he told him how to handle it. What did he tell him to say? 22 A Well, he said, "You only have to concern yourself 23 with the checks you've written, Bob. You know, what's the 24 problem here? You only have to concern yourself with the 25 checks you've written." Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 207 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q What did you understand that to mean? 5 A Don't talk about that other $500,000 check because 6 you didn't write it. You didn't actually write the check. 7 Q And what did you understand "you didn't actually 8 write it" to mean? 9 THE COURT: I've never had this kind of money. 10 How does one get somebody to send $500,000 without 11 the -- 12 THE WITNESS: It was a bank -- it was a bank 13 check. 14 THE COURT: Well, you just pick up the phone, 15 call your bank, say, "Send $500,00"0? Is that how 16 it works? I don't know. I'm not rich. 17 THE WITNESS: It seems -- it seems to be 18 something like that. 19 THE COURT: Really? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q So in -- 23 THE COURT: How do they know it's the right 24 person on the telephone? 25 MR. WEINBERG: It's a little more than that. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 208 1 THE COURT: I would hope so. Otherwise give me 2 the number. 3 MR. FUGATE: I can't help you 'cause -- 4 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY THE COURT: 7 Q So he said, "You only have to concern yourself 8 with the checks you've written"? 9 A Yes, your honor. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And there was another thing about the fat man, but 12 that doesn't concern that particular check, so -- 13 Q Okay. 14 A In any case, it was my understanding that 15 Mr. Dandar now understood how distraught Mr. Minton was 16 about having to -- about putting himself in danger by 17 perjury, and that Mr. Dandar was now helping him ease his 18 concerns by helping him -- by coaching him about how to 19 answer the questions so that he wouldn't be caught, I guess. 20 So then they left -- 21 Q They being? 22 A Mr. Dandar and Dr. Garko. And I said, "Don't even 23 think the thought of giving him any more money. I hope 24 you're not." And Mr. Minton said, "Well, you know, I just 25 kind of feel like I'm in so deep now that it's really not Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 209 1 going to make any difference at this point." 2 Because you know, Mr. Dandar had really, really 3 begged him to give him enough money to get him through the 4 trial. And he had really appealed to Mr. Minton's 5 commitment to this case; commitment to, you know, his 6 anti-Scientology work. You know, "you've come this far, you 7 know, don't -- you know, please help me, you know, get this 8 thing through to the end." You know, that kind of thing. 9 And so, you know, Mr. Dandar made several phone 10 calls to Mr. Minton; you know, "Have you written it? Is it 11 coming?" I found out from Mr. Minton that he had, in fact, 12 written another check -- I mean -- I'm sorry -- not written 13 another check, but caused another check to be issued. 14 Q One of those magical phone calls? 15 A One of those phone calls. 16 Q Right. 17 A You know, I don't have -- 18 Q That none of us knows how to do. 19 A But -- but -- 20 Q I mean, I know this is true, this is how it 21 happens, I just don't really -- we'll ask Mr. Minton when he 22 comes in. I mean, there must be a code or something. I 23 mean, it's late in the day. There's just got to be a code. 24 Just got to be able to call and give a number. 25 MR. WEINBERG: He'd probably like to tell you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 210 1 that off the record. 2 THE COURT: I wasn't going to ask him that, but 3 there's got to be some things that one goes through. 4 Go ahead. I'm sorry. We'll probably stop at 5 the end of your case 'cause I just really have a 6 huge headache. 7 So if you could -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm -- 9 THE COURT: Not you, him. He's -- if you could 10 get done with the direct -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to shut up, Judge -- 12 THE COURT: -- of the witness that we were 13 going to finish today. 14 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 15 A So he sent the check. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q All right. And was there any more discussion, to 19 your knowledge, about that check to Mr. Minton -- to your 20 knowledge, with Mr. Minton and Mr. Dandar about whether that 21 should be reviewed -- that check? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q And what was that? 24 A Well, then -- I mean, you know, this was the 25 beginning of March, and meanwhile, you remember that I'm Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 211 1 having Mr. Howie call and initiate settlement talks with 2 Scientology. So now -- 3 EXAMINATION 4 BY THE COURT: 5 Q You're trying to negotiate a settlement with 6 Scientology. In the meantime -- 7 A And meanwhile, Mr. Minton is continuing -- 8 Q -- putting out a quarter of a million bucks -- 9 A Right. 10 Q -- to try to help -- 11 A I'm saying, "Jeesh, don't --" 12 Q Tough to negotiate a settlement like that. 13 A Don't -- how are we going to settle it if you're 14 continuing to fund the case? Exactly. 15 And so Mr. Minton is being a little bit sheepish 16 about that. And then we get word from Mr. Howie that, you 17 know, these two contempt hearings are going forward in -- 18 you know, in the beginning of April, in which Mr. Minton is 19 going to be put in jail for contempt either by Judge 20 Schaeffer or by Judge Baird. 21 Q Or both. 22 A Or by both. 23 And so -- 24 Q Would it please you to know that I've never put 25 anybody in jail for contempt in 21 years? Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 212 1 A You haven't? Because your Honor, you said on the 2 record one time that you'd be perfectly happy to put 3 somebody in jail for six years -- 4 Q Well, I don't know if I said for six years, but I 5 have always said that, and that's what I use to get results, 6 but -- 7 A I'll tell you something. We believed you. And 8 that was a lot of the reason why -- 9 Q The maximum time that anybody can be put in jail 10 for criminal contempt is five months and 29 days. 11 A Is that right? 12 Q That is right. So that is the maximum sentence, 13 okay. So if anybody ever told you differently, that's it. 14 A Well, I -- 15 Q And I guess I did put one defendant in jail once 16 for that amount of time. I couldn't even remember what it 17 was. He started swearing at me in court. And we had -- he 18 was on the floor, swearing at me. He called me every rotten 19 name in the book. And finally called me a woman. I mean, 20 that was the -- bailiff arrest him -- he was calling F -- 21 all in all I figured I had to do something. I didn't know 22 what it was because I'd never used this contempt power that 23 I had. And I did it very poorly, I might add. But I tried 24 to get a contempt hearing going so that the next several 25 people appearing wouldn't think that was good procedure. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 213 1 I threaten a lot. I've never held anybody in 2 contempt except him. 3 A Well, we believed you. 4 Q I don't hesitate -- I wouldn't hesitate to use it. 5 I mean, I'm sure your lawyer or somebody said I'm not happy 6 with the fact that you and Mr. Minton have admitted that you 7 committed perjury. I'm sitting here today, you know? I'm 8 sitting here today, it's quarter to 6 on a Friday afternoon, 9 trying to buy a new house. I'm absolutely beat. I'm 10 sitting up nights reading this that you see. And I'm not 11 saying that it's just you all. But certainly I know it's 12 you all because you said it is. 13 Now, you know, I don't know what you thought 14 before, but I mean, we're going to have to come to some -- 15 some day there's going to be a day of reckoning. I'm not 16 saying I'm going to put you in jail. Please don't think I'm 17 threatening you. Wouldn't do that to you. But you just 18 don't get to commit perjury in any judge's court. Say 19 you've committed perjury and then expect the judge to say, 20 "Well, thanks a lot for coming in." 21 I mean, do you understand what's going on here? 22 What you've caused, helped to cause? And I'm not saying 23 it's just you. Do you understand that you've created some 24 chaos here? 25 A Your Honor, I understand it very well. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 214 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's try to get through the 2 direct, if we can. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. 4 THE COURT: And as I said, I don't mean to be 5 threatening. Now that you know I've never held 6 anybody in contempt in 21 years. I used to teach 7 it. I used to have a wonderful time teaching it to 8 new judges. And I'd always tell them, "Don't do 9 it." If you have to hold somebody in contempt you 10 don't have control of your courtroom. So you know, 11 I thought I had pretty good control of my courtroom 12 so I didn't have to use it. 13 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q My question was -- 16 THE COURT: Don't be afraid just because you've 17 heard from somebody that I said that. I mean, as I 18 said, I'm very frustrated. I'm very frustrated that 19 we're -- we're having to go through this. We're 20 going to go through it Monday. We're going to go 21 through it Tuesday. And I've got a couple motions 22 they want me to hear about the issues in the case. 23 And I'm having to deal with all this. 24 So it is frustrating and -- 25 THE WITNESS: At best. At best. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 215 1 THE COURT: All right. If I were you, I would 2 never do it again. 3 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I promise I never 4 will. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q All right. My question was, was there any other 7 discussion, to your knowledge, between Mr. Minton, 8 Mr. Dandar about whether or not to reveal the last $250,000 9 payment or check? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. And what was that? 12 A Mr. Minton had by now gotten in touch with his 13 counsel, not only in Florida but also in Boston. And he was 14 now aware that he was going to have to tell the truth about 15 these checks. 16 Q And the "he" is -- 17 A Mr. Minton. 18 Q Okay. 19 A And he told Mr. Dandar that -- 20 Q He, Mr. Minton? 21 A -- in a phone conversation. 22 Q He, Mr. Minton, told -- 23 A Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that he was going to 24 have to tell the truth about the checks. And Mr. Dandar got 25 very distraught about that. And said, "Bob, you know, you Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 216 1 only have to testify about the checks you've written. You 2 don't have to bring that up." 3 THE COURT: When was this, ma'am, again? 4 THE WITNESS: Sometime in mid-March. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Of 2002? 7 A Yeah. And then we -- Mr. Minton and I had a 8 meeting in New York with Sandy Rosen, Mike Rinder and 9 Monique Yingling, who's another attorney for Scientology. 10 And we sat down with them, with Mr. Minton's Boston counsel, 11 Steve Jonas. 12 Q Steve -- 13 A Steven Jonas. 14 THE COURT: Boss? Did you say boss? 15 THE WITNESS: Boston. 16 THE COURT: Oh, Boston. 17 A Boston. 18 And Mr. Minton and I went into this meeting with 19 every intention of settling with Scientology and getting out 20 of this litigation altogether, in whatever way -- well, not 21 in whatever way, but by severing all ties. And we sat down 22 and we told them that -- 23 THE COURT: This is going to go on for a long 24 time, isn't it? 25 THE WITNESS: No. He's almost over. It's like Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 217 1 another two sentences, if you want me to hurry. 2 THE COURT: Oh. Are we on your affidavits, you 3 mean? 4 THE WITNESS: No. We're on the settlement 5 talks. 6 THE COURT: Oh. 7 THE WITNESS: And I'll make it fast. 8 THE COURT: I'm talking about your direct 9 testimony. I'd like to get through the direct. How 10 much longer is it? 11 MR. FUGATE: If she said two sentences, I'm 12 guessing two sentences, Judge. 13 THE COURT: I'm guessing two hours. Go on 14 ahead. 15 MR. FUGATE: I didn't say how long they were 16 going to be. 17 THE COURT: I know. 18 A Anyway, we told them that we wanted to walk away; 19 that we wanted -- Mr. Minton was going to stop funding; that 20 I was going to stop providing any declarations; that I would 21 withdraw my declarations that I already filed; that we 22 didn't want anything more to do with Scientology litigation 23 anymore and to please just let us walk away. 24 Well, much to our horror, what they said was 25 that -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 218 1 THE COURT: Who's they? Tell us -- let's say 2 who said what. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Rosen. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen. 5 A Mr. Rosen said that they would be more than happy 6 to sit down with us and talk settlement once we set the 7 record straight in the Florida cases. And we said, "What do 8 you mean?" And he said, "Well, we have reason to believe 9 that you have not been forthcoming in your testimony in 10 discovery in those cases. And before we'll talk to you 11 about settlement in any way, you're going to have to set 12 those records straight." 13 And that night Mr. Minton and I called Mr. Dandar 14 and -- 15 THE COURT: Do you remember what date this was? 16 THE WITNESS: I think it was -- 17 THE COURT: Day? 18 THE WITNESS: Maybe it was March 28th. 19 THE COURT: Okay. Are we still in the dep- -- 20 am I -- am I -- 21 MR. FUGATE: I think you've gone beyond now. I 22 think she's talking about why she -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 A And -- no. 'Cause I'm telling you about another 25 conversation that happened about the checks. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 219 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Actually, I did ask that, so -- 3 A Yeah. 4 EXAMINATION 5 BY THE COURT: 6 Q So you called Mr. Minton -- Mr. Dandar -- 7 A Mr. Dandar. 8 Q On March 28th. 9 A On March 28th, and told him that -- and Mr. Minton 10 told him that he was going to have to start telling the 11 truth about what had been going on. And -- 12 Q He, meaning Mr. Minton, told he, Mr. Dandar -- 13 A Mr. Minton, Mr. Dandar -- 14 Q -- was going to have to start telling the truth. 15 A No. No. Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that 16 Mr. Minton was going to have to start telling the truth. 17 Q I got you. 18 A And you know, it was sort of warning him, you 19 know, sort of letting him know that this was happening. 20 And -- and we had a little bit more of a 21 conversation on that night, but basically we ended it that 22 night by Mr. Dandar saying, "Look, let's get together in 23 Cleveland. I have to go to Cleveland for a heart --" 24 Q -- checkup. 25 A "Checkup. And let's meet there --" Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 220 1 Q I don't know if that's true or not. I'm just 2 trying to -- 3 A Yeah. Checkup. 4 Q Okay. 5 A Well, next night -- so then the next day we went 6 into the settlement talks again and -- and we said, "Listen, 7 you know, we'll get started on setting the record straight, 8 but we want you to put back -- push back these two contempt 9 hearings that are just about to come up next week." 10 DIRECT EXAMINATION (Resumed) 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Continue the contempt hearings? 13 A We want you to continue those contempt hearings so 14 that, you know, Mr. Minton doesn't have that hanging over 15 his head while we're trying to sort this out. 16 Well, Mr. Rosen said, "We're not stopping 17 anything. You know, those things are going to go forward as 18 scheduled. You know, we'll be glad to arrange for -- you 19 know, to pick back up on the settlement talks when you've 20 set the record straight. But you know, you'll have an 21 opportunity to do that in these hearings down in Florida or, 22 you know, however you want to do it. But we aren't 23 continuing with the settlement talks until that happens and 24 we're not putting off anything." 25 Well, then we were really, really upset. And then Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 221 1 that night we called Mr. Dandar again. And that was the 2 famous phone conversation where Mr. Minton said, you know, 3 "You're going to have the blood of -- my blood and the blood 4 of my family on your hands if you -- if you won't agree to 5 drop this case." 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q Why was he asking him to drop the case? Was that 9 a demand made by Mr. Rosen? 10 A No. No. 11 Q Where did it come from? Where did Mr. Minton pick 12 this up? 13 A Well, it was because that was the only way we 14 could think of to save the case from having what's now 15 happening happen. Where all this -- you know, he and I are 16 both having to recant testimony. You know, the critic 17 community is in an uproar. We're in all this trouble. And 18 you know, we were trying to shortcut, shortcircuit the whole 19 process by just getting him to drop the case. You know, 20 hoping to avoid having to testify that Mr. Dandar had 21 encouraged us to commit perjury. 22 And you know, all these different things that were 23 going on in our mind, we thought that Mr. Dandar would be 24 more -- would rather have that, have the -- you know, have 25 the case dropped than go through all this. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 222 1 Q So what was it that -- 2 A That's what we thought. 3 Q I don't know. I've read this somewhere. I've 4 read so much I don't remember. But somebody says under 5 oath, or maybe not under oath, that the request to have the 6 case dropped came from the Scientologists. If you want 7 to -- us to discuss this, you're going to have to get the 8 case dropped. This case, dropped. 9 Are you suggesting that was never said? Was it 10 just something that you and Mr. Minton came up with? 11 A Well, I've been trying to get them to drop the 12 case since the summer before, your Honor. 13 Q Well, when you met with the Scientologists -- 14 whoever, Mr. Rosen and Mr. who? 15 A Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. 16 Q And Ms. -- is it a Ms.? It's a woman, 17 Ms. Yingling. 18 A It's a woman, yes. 19 Q Mr. Rinder and Mr. Rosen -- did they tell you 20 before they would settle the case you had to get this case 21 dropped? Before they would settle with you, whatever it was 22 that was, you had to get this case dropped. 23 A No, your Honor. What they said was, "You -- you 24 have to set the record straight in this case. We have 25 reason to believe that if the truth really comes out in this Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 223 1 case, that this case will -- that the judge will probably 2 throw it out. We have reason to believe --" you know, 3 basically it was like that. "We have reason to believe that 4 there's been so much -- God -- you know, whatever, bad -- so 5 much bad stuff that's happened in the case that that may 6 well be the result it." 7 Q Okay. So you called Mr. Dandar that night and 8 asked him to drought drop the case. 9 A Yes. 10 Q That was March the 30th, I take it? 11 A That was March the 29th. 12 Q Oh, okay, March the 29th. Right. Okay. 13 A And you know, he got very upset. He said, 14 "There's no way. You know, this case is too important. I 15 can't believe you're saying these things. You know, I can't 16 believe you would do that --" 17 Q Did he know you were meeting with Mr. Rosen and 18 Mr. Rinder? I mean, had you all told him that? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Okay. 21 A I believe so. 22 Oh, oh, yeah. And you're -- you know, they're 23 threatening you. They've got something on you. You know, 24 this is when this all started. 25 And you know, Bob was very upset. I was very Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 224 1 upset. Mr. Dandar was very upset. Everybody was very 2 upset. And so then -- and I'm sorry this is -- I'm going to 3 do this as fast as I can. 4 But your hearing then happened the next Friday, 5 where Mr. Minton was on trial for contempt, for criminal 6 contempt. And that was the hearing when Mr. Moxon was going 7 through, you know, this -- this history of -- of discovery 8 with Mr. Minton. And you know, I'm sitting there in the 9 courtroom and I'm listening to all this. 10 And then he gets to this one -- I can't remember 11 what the affidavit was about -- but you know, it was the one 12 that just didn't match anything else that Mr. Minton had 13 said. You might remember that. And I thought, oh, you 14 know, she's going to find him guilty. 15 And then Mr. Howie got up and he did this judgment 16 of acquittal argument and found this technicality. And you 17 had to throw it out and find him not guilty on a 18 technicality. 19 Q I didn't have to throw it out. I threw it out 20 because he didn't -- Mr. Moxon didn't meet the -- didn't 21 make it stick. 22 A Right. 23 Q In other words, it was -- there was a technical 24 error. And by law, he was not guilty. 25 A Right. But -- Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 225 1 Q A judgment -- 2 A But -- 3 Q -- of acquittal. It had to be. 4 A But as far as we were concerned, it was a miracle. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Because if that technicality hadn't happened, he'd 7 be in jail. You tell me now you don't put people in jail, 8 but -- 9 Q No. I never have. I was not happy with 10 Mr. Minton. 11 A Well, we believed with all our heart that you 12 would have put him in jail. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And we -- and at that point, after that hearing 15 before you, and you admonished him that you -- he was -- I 16 don't think you said this exactly, but what you meant was, 17 "You got away with it this time, but you better not try it 18 again." That's what I heard. 19 Q Sounds like me. 20 A Yeah. And that's what Mr. Minton heard too. And 21 so the next day we went over to Wally Pope's office, and we 22 spoke to Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. And we told them that 23 we were ready to start the process of correcting the record. 24 And there came a point during that afternoon where 25 Mr. Minton was ready to start telling them what had really Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 226 1 been going on and he started to gag, and he went outside and 2 he was really sick at the thought of doing this. But you 3 know, I said, "This is our only hope. It's our only hope. 4 We have to do this and we have to trust them." 5 You know, because -- you know, here we are, now 6 we're talking to Scientology, you know, these people that we 7 have been fighting for so long, that -- you know, or these 8 horrible, evil people. And you know, now we're -- we're 9 going in there and now we're going to start telling them the 10 truth about what's been going on. I mean, it was like -- 11 you know, it was -- it was just almost unbearable. And -- 12 Q Well, we've already established that what you were 13 going to tell them the truth about were two things that were 14 fairly insignificant except for the fact that Mr. Dandar was 15 a part of it. You were going to tell them about an 16 agreement that was perfectly all right. You were going to 17 tell them about a -- some checks that were perfectly all 18 right. 19 A Well, it may seem that simple to you now, but to 20 us at that time, what we were about to do was change sides, 21 totally turn our backs on all the people that we had been 22 working with so hard, admit to perjury, admit to discovery 23 abuse. I mean, pretty serious discovery abuse. And we 24 were -- we really had no idea what was going to happen to 25 us. But we didn't feel that there was any other choice that Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 227 1 we had. 2 And I wish I could tell you that, you know, I woke 3 up one morning and I thought, I have to tell the truth 4 because it's the right thing to do. But really what 5 happened was that Saturday -- 6 Q That would have been March 30th? 7 A No. That was after the day after your hearing, so 8 it was April 6th. 9 Q Okay. 10 A Really what happened was that Saturday we went 11 outside in the front parking lot of Wally Pope's office and 12 said, "We have no choice but to recant our testimony and put 13 ourselves on the mercy of these courts." 14 And that's what happened. 15 MR. FUGATE: I have no more questions. 16 THE COURT: All right. Seems like a good time 17 to take our break. Now, look, this is an awfully 18 long weekend. I am going to permit you, ma'am -- 19 you're still on the stand. Cross examination will 20 come on Monday. I'm going to treat this like I 21 would treat something and I'm going to let you talk 22 to your lawyer. 23 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: But I am not going to let you -- 25 you are on the stand. You cannot talk to anybody Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 228 1 else. Now I understand how tough that might be, but 2 clearly, obviously, that means Mr. Minton, he's a 3 witness, the rule's been invoked -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: And you can't talk to any of these 6 people. You can't talk to any of those people. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Okay? But I'm not going to 9 preclude her from talking to her lawyer 'cause I 10 think that's -- it's a long weekend and she ought to 11 have somebody she can talk to about what's going on 12 if she needs to. Is that fair? 13 MR. LIROT: To speak with her attorney and no 14 one else. 15 THE COURT: With her attorney. 16 MR. LIROT: That's fair. 17 THE COURT: She can speak to -- you can speak 18 to anybody you want to, but you just can't -- 19 THE WITNESS: But not about this. 20 THE COURT: Not about this. Not about your 21 testimony. Not about what your testimony that's 22 going on, it's going to go on. But you can talk to 23 your lawyer about anything involving this case. Is 24 that okay with you, Counsel? 25 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge, we just as a reminder Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 229 1 ask her to comply with all the requests for 2 production and all the documents that were shown to 3 her at those meetings. 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry. 5 MR. LIROT: Meetings with Scientology. We'd 6 like her to bring those with her on Monday. 7 THE COURT: What? I don't know what you're 8 talking about? 9 MR. MCGOWAN: Your Honor, there was a request 10 to produce that was filed as a request to produce -- 11 THE COURT: In the other case? 12 13 MR. MCGOWAN: Pardon? 14 THE COURT: In the other case or in this case? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: No, in this case. 16 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 17 MR. MCGOWAN: But it's a request to produce, 18 like a 30-day request to produce, that asks for all 19 the documents that admits extortion and blackmail 20 and so forth. 21 THE COURT: I saw that, but I thought that 22 was -- honestly I thought that was in the other 23 case. 24 MR. MCGOWAN: It was in this case. But in 25 either case, it was a 30-day request to produce. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 230 1 THE COURT: Okay. To be honest with you, what 2 does that mean? They've had 30 days to produce it? 3 MR. MCGOWAN: They've had 30 days for these 4 documents that they'll tell you don't exist. 5 THE COURT: Well, look, if you've got them and 6 you can bring them, please don't make me have 7 another hearing, Counsel. 8 MR. MCGOWAN: I won't, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: So she's got a notice to produce 10 and it's going to be something they need for their 11 cross examination and you've got them in hand, 12 forget the 30 days. Give them to her, let her bring 13 them in so that they can talk to her about it. 14 Okay? 15 MR. MCGOWAN: Certainly. 16 THE COURT: I don't want to have another 17 hearing after 30 days, and she doesn't either. Fair 18 enough? 19 MR. MCGOWAN: I think no one does, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 22 MR. MCGOWAN: Your Honor, if it -- if it please 23 the court, I have another case besides this one, and 24 I have a commitment at 9:00 Monday morning. I'll be 25 out of it by about 10:15. Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 231 1 THE COURT: You know what, I think I remember 2 my secretary telling me we didn't start until 1:30 3 on Monday? 4 MR. MCGOWAN: Oh, is that right? 5 MR. FUGATE: 1:30 on Monday and then 9:00, if 6 we go, on Tuesday. 7 THE COURT: If we go? Come on, Mr. Fugate. 8 MR. FUGATE: I'm just telling you what you said 9 to me, Judge. 10 THE COURT: Yeah. Okay. Who else do you have 11 to call in your case? 12 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Minton. 13 THE COURT: And then at that time you're going 14 to rest? 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And then at that time I'm going to 17 hear legal argument from you, is that right? 18 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 19 THE COURT: We might get that far, maybe, by 20 Tuesday. Maybe. I doubt it. But we might. 21 You understand, ma'am, the admonition I've 22 given you? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: If they come in and ask you, "Who 25 have you talked to over the weekend" and you say, Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 232 1 "I've talked to Mr. Minton about it and I've talked 2 to Mr. Moxon about it, Mr. Fugate about it," I'm 3 going to be livid, right? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Do the best you can. Don't talk to 6 anybody about your testimony. You're on the stand. 7 THE WITNESS: I promise I won't, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Except him. You can talk to your 9 lawyer. 10 All right. That's it. We'll see you all 1:30 11 Monday. 12 (A recess was taken.) 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 233 1 2 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 3 4 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 5 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 6 I, Donna M. Kanabay, RMR, CRR, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically report the 7 proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 8 I further certify that I am not a relative, 9 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' attorney or 10 counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 11 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 4th day of May, 2002. 12 13 ______________________________ DONNA M. KANABAY, RMR, CRR 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 234 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA 2 CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 3 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 4 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 5 6 Plaintiff, 7 vs. VOLUME 3 8 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 9 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 10 Defendants. 11 _______________________________________/ 12 13 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 14 DATE: May 6 , 2002. Afternoon Session. 15 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 16 St. Petersburg, Florida. 17 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 18 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 19 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 20 21 22 23 24 25 235 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 236 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 237 1 THE COURT: Okay. Let's do a few little 2 preliminary things here. 3 In the event we don't finish tomorrow, I have 4 two trial weeks coming up, next week and the week 5 after. Both of those weeks I'm available five days 6 a week. I expect to get this thing done. 7 So -- yes? 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we have, of course, 9 scheduled a slew of expert depositions. 10 THE COURT: Sure. 11 MR. DANDAR: One of them is tomorrow, Joyce T. 12 Eastridge, the defendant's economist. 13 THE COURT: Tomorrow? 14 MR. DANDAR: Tomorrow. My brother can cover 15 that deposition. They have a dozen lawyers over 16 there and they canceled it on their own because of 17 this hearing. And I would request that you order 18 one of them to appear for that deposition so there 19 is no delay in preparing for trial. 20 THE COURT: Why can't one of you-all cover that 21 deposition? 22 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, for a factual 23 record, we received a notice from Mr. Dandar last 24 week that tomorrow would be taken up with this 25 hearing. He actually noticed this particular 238 1 hearing. When we got that, I wrote him a letter 2 immediately saying that, in light of that, we were 3 assuming that deposition was not going forward. And 4 that witness now is not -- she's not available. 5 THE COURT: Why not? 6 MR. HERTZBERG: She's on call, I believe, in a 7 case in West Palm Beach. And, you know, we never 8 got a response from that letter. I sent that letter 9 to Mr. Dandar immediately last week when he said 10 that tomorrow would be taken up with this hearing. 11 And so far as I know, although I have not been back 12 in my office in New York since then, I have no word 13 that any kind of response to my letter, which was 14 faxed -- 15 THE COURT: Call that witness and see if he's 16 available. If he's just on call, he ought to be 17 available, especially if that trial doesn't -- he 18 has somebody that can cover it, and you have a slew 19 of lawyers to cover it. I only need one here and 20 let's get it done. 21 MR. HERTZBERG: To be candid with you, at this 22 point now we have not had any preparation with that 23 witness. 24 THE COURT: Well, take a day and prepare, 25 whatever. 239 1 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I invited 2 Mr. Dandar to give me alternative dates. We'll 3 reschedule it as soon as we can, but we are -- we 4 are not going to be ready to go forward tomorrow. 5 And I sent him a very precise letter on this exact 6 topic. And never got a response. So we just 7 assumed it was off. 8 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 9 the deposition? 10 MR. DANDAR: Pardon me? 11 THE COURT: Who accepted that -- who had set 12 that deposition? 13 MR. DANDAR: I did. We sent it with a big 14 conference with Judge Beach. 15 THE COURT: And you unilaterally canceled it. 16 MR. HERTZBERG: He did by sending the notice 17 out. He sent us a notice saying there would be a 18 hearing that would take up last Thursday, Friday, 19 today and tomorrow. And I sent him a letter. I 20 wish I had a copy with me; I don't believe I do. 21 But I sent him a letter saying, "In light of your 22 notice, we assume we'll be rescheduling this in the 23 future. In fact, that we'll be rescheduling it. 24 Would you please notify me what days you are 25 available so I can reschedule it with you." 240 1 In the interim, frankly, I told the witness 2 that we had a hearing that was going to supersede 3 her deposition, that I have not heard back from 4 Mr. Dandar, and she sent me a notice saying that she 5 was on call for this case in West Palm Beach. 6 THE COURT: Counselor, call her. See if she's 7 available tomorrow. If she's available tomorrow, 8 one of you -- surely when the only possible issue 9 here is net accumulations to an aunt who ought to be 10 able to recover, it ought to take a two pages to get 11 it done. If she's on call, go where she is, do what 12 is necessary, try to get it done. There is no 13 reason to delay that. 14 MR. HERTZBERG: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Okay? Now, if the witness can't be 16 available because she's been called off, she made 17 other plans, there is not much we can do about that. 18 MR. HERTZBERG: Right. 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, on a similar note, I 20 sent a letter to Mr. Lirot and Mr. Dandar today. 21 The deposition -- based on what you just said, the 22 deposition that we had scheduled for Monday, 23 May 13th, with Dr. Bernard Knight, the fellow from 24 Wales, he's broken his leg in several places and 25 they inserted a plate and pins in his ankle and he 241 1 notified us he -- we were flying him over to 2 accommodate counsel, and he can't come on Monday. 3 So we would have, I assume, Monday available if the 4 Court wanted to use Monday. 5 THE COURT: I have two weeks. I plan to go 6 starting that Monday until we're done. You all have 7 a slew of lawyers. You make do. You know, there 8 are two of you-all, Mr. Dandar, you don't need to 9 sit here. You can be out doing whatever you have to 10 do. Mr. Lirot can handle this hearing. Whatever 11 you have scheduled, you do it. I'm just telling you 12 come that Monday I have two weeks, ten days, and I 13 plan to finish this hearing. 14 MR. FUGATE: I understand what you said now. I 15 was just going to say that is available, but we'll 16 be here. 17 MR. WEINBERG: The Monday you are talking about 18 is the 13th? Is that the Monday? 19 THE COURT: Yes, the 13th. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 21 THE COURT: You know, frankly, if -- let me 22 make sure I'm going to be available all those two 23 weeks. I am. So if you all have something 24 scheduled one of those days, you know -- I mean, if 25 it is something you all need to be at, you have a 242 1 deposition scheduled, because I just learned that we 2 have a slew of senior judge coverage. So, quite 3 frankly, if it weren't that I have a hearing 4 tomorrow and the next that I just have to cover, 5 because it is kind of one of those continued 6 hearings where I have already done two or three days 7 of it, we'll keep going after tomorrow. 8 MR. DANDAR: We actually had a hearing set at 9 1:30 today to strike witnesses they want to depose. 10 That would also free up more time during this two 11 trial weeks. One is Tom Haverty, who you saw 12 sitting here last week. He's one of my 13 investigators and consultants. They want to take 14 his deposition. He's protected under work product. 15 THE COURT: Why do you want to take his 16 deposition? At least -- maybe you might want to 17 take it at a later proceedings, but why in the 18 wrongful death? He's an investigator or something 19 working with Mr. Dandar. I'm not going to allow 20 that. 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, we were prepared to 22 argue that, but I was going to tell you, Mr. Haverty 23 was the one that organized some of the experiments. 24 He did the experiment with respect to the Jeep 25 crash. He bought the Jeep, he had the Jeep. There 243 1 are issues about the embolism and the bruise to her 2 knee. And Mr. Haverty was the one specifically 3 knowledgeable about that, worked with the accident 4 reconstruction man, and apparently actually owns 5 this Jeep, too. He also is the one that set up this 6 other experiment, which may be moot now. 7 THE COURT: Which one is that? 8 MR. MOXON: The bugs. Cockroaches. 9 THE COURT: Oh, I think that is moot. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes, he also has been, for quite 11 some time, has been taking photographs and doing 12 whatnot. He has been taking photographs of counsel 13 and going to some places where the depositions were 14 and -- and outside surreptitiously taking 15 photographs. That might be an issue. 16 THE COURT: What -- how might that be an issue 17 for deposition? It might be an issue for the Court, 18 but it is hardly an issue to take a lawyer's 19 consultant's or a lawyer's investigator's 20 deposition. 21 MR. MOXON: What might be left is the accident 22 reconstruction -- 23 THE COURT: I don't think I'll allow a lawyer's 24 investigator to be deposed until you have something 25 you'll allow him to be called for. 244 1 MR. MOXON: We'll take it up then. We can hold 2 in abeyance. We already indicated we were not going 3 to take his deposition until this matter was -- 4 THE COURT: I'm telling you now, unless you can 5 come into court and show me some cause other than 6 just he might have -- I mean, all investigators have 7 some knowledge about certain things. You just don't 8 get to take their deposition. 9 So his deposition is out, unless you can show 10 me something really good as to why it should be 11 taken. 12 MR. MOXON: Fair enough. 13 THE COURT: Talk to their accident 14 reconstructionist or some piece of the puzzle that 15 he just simply can't fill in, I imagine we can get 16 it to you in some other fashion, like an affidavit 17 or something. 18 You don't depose lawyers' investigators, 19 lawyers' secretaries, lawyers and those type of 20 people. That isn't done, should not be done, and 21 it's not going to be done unless there is some super 22 reason. I haven't heard one. 23 MR. FUGATE: At a break we can get together and 24 determine what is on everyone's calendar and get it 25 resolved so we can abide by your ruling. 245 1 THE COURT: Let's just assume we'll start on 2 Monday, and unless I hear something you have set, 3 we'll just go until we are done. 4 MR. DANDAR: The other deposition they 5 scheduled two days in Dallas, Texas. 6 THE COURT: The lady that will work as far as 7 this -- if this lady is unavailable because you have 8 been called off, I hope it doesn't take ten days. 9 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. 10 THE COURT: Yes. 11 MR. DANDAR: But the other thing they 12 scheduled, which we noticed for today, is that they 13 want to take the half brother and sister of Lisa 14 McPherson from her father's first marriage who have 15 not seen Lisa McPherson since she was a baby. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, file motion to exclude 17 that. 18 MR. DANDAR: I did. 19 THE COURT: Then I'll hear it, and unless they 20 have some awfully good reason, that won't be 21 allowed. 22 MR. DANDAR: It was set for 1:30. I just 23 wanted to let you know that. 24 THE COURT: Today? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 246 1 THE COURT: Let's hear it. 2 MR. MOXON: I didn't see any such notice. We 3 have not subpoenaed them. We have not asked for 4 out-of-state -- we haven't received his motion, 5 either. 6 MR. DANDAR: I didn't file the motion. 7 THE COURT: Then in that case, we can't hear 8 it. 9 MR. DANDAR: I'll set it for Monday. 10 THE COURT: You can set it for next week if you 11 want. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: We need to get this thing down to 14 where, if it's going to be tried, depositions are 15 being taken of people who know something about the 16 case. It doesn't sound like those folks would. 17 I also want to inform you that if this case 18 goes on to trial, that we had kind of scheduled this 19 tentatively for the June trial docket which would 20 have been starting on the second week. I know we 21 also talked kind of tentatively about using that for 22 motions and pretrial matters and stuff like that. 23 And that is still fine with me. 24 I thought I should tell you that the next week, 25 I think that is the week -- yes, the next week, I 247 1 have to be in Tallahassee to address the Supreme 2 Court on the 18th. And that requires me to go to 3 Tallahassee the night before. Which means that kind 4 of messes up my day. So I'm going to be sort of 5 tentatively unavailable the 17th and 18th. I have 6 got a meeting in Naples -- I don't remember where it 7 is, wherever the circuit judges conference is -- 8 Naples, all day the 21st of that week. And I'm 9 going to be on a panel on the 24th of that week. I 10 am moving on the 28th of that week. 11 So I'm kind of giving you just an idea that 12 you'll have -- you all kind of blocked for two to 13 four months for this, so what I'm telling you, we're 14 going to have time in June. I won't get started 15 with the jury until we can get started and go, 16 unless we just want to bring in 50 at a time and 17 take the days that we've got and do it kind of 18 piecemeal. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would ask we not do 20 anything on the 17th at all, because as I indicated, 21 my daughter will get married on the 15th, which is a 22 Saturday. 23 THE COURT: We'll keep the 17th open. We have 24 the 17th open, the 18th open, the 21st -- well, 25 open -- closed, unavailable, you know, 21st is 248 1 closed, 24th is closed. 2 MR. FUGATE: The 28th is the Friday? 3 THE COURT: The 28th is closed. And really 4 there is -- 5 MR. DANDAR: Is this all in June? 6 THE COURT: All in June. So our hope of 7 getting this started in June -- everything started 8 falling into this June mess. 9 So I think what we'll do is say this. I think 10 we'll kind of assume that we have got June in 11 between motions that we'll still have, things that 12 are still going on, maybe depositions that -- that 13 you haven't had a chance to take. We'll have days 14 where we can fit things in, but we won't plan on 15 actually starting the trial in June. Just got too 16 many odds and ends. 17 So if this case ends up in trial, maybe we can 18 start July. I bet you -- I don't know if we have 19 the 5th off. Is the 5th a court holiday? Does 20 anybody know? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Do you know what day of the week 22 the 4th is? 23 THE COURT: The 4th is a Thursday. A lot of 24 times the 5th becomes a court holiday. That is all 25 right. It might take us a good four or five days to 249 1 get a jury. So maybe when we have our case 2 management conference we can settle this down a 3 little bit and see what days we have and what have 4 you. 5 But as I'm looking at this and as I'm hearing 6 this, it may be very hard for us to get much done. 7 It's the week of the 10th -- see, that is a good 8 week for me, and it's probably a good week for 9 you-all, but the problem is, I said we pretty much 10 would take that week and finish up anything we still 11 have hanging on. 12 So just be aware that the month of June is 13 going to be fairly flexible, and you all will have 14 some time to work on your case. Unless you get 15 bogged down taking depositions up until the last 16 minute, you can kind of spend some of that time 17 preparing your case. 18 MR. WEINBERG: If you recall, the beginning of 19 June I would be gone to my son's graduation from 20 college up in Massachusetts, but that will be okay, 21 basically, what you just said. 22 THE COURT: Yes, that will work. So I'm just 23 kind of advising you of all those little problems. 24 I wrote down a couple of things -- so I want to 25 start next week -- I think I'll go ahead and do my 250 1 regular calendar. We'll just go this afternoon, all 2 day tomorrow, see where we end up. If we can finish 3 Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton, that is the end of your 4 case, I think you said. 5 MR. FUGATE: We've got some documents. But 6 other than that, that will be the live witness 7 testimony. 8 THE COURT: We can at least finish that part of 9 it. 10 MR. DANDAR: And the defense witnesses, 11 unfortunately, after tomorrow, are gone and will not 12 be available again until the 15th. 13 THE COURT: Where are they gone? 14 MR. DANDAR: Out of state. Jessie Prince will 15 be gone Wednesday to go to California on the 16 Wollersheim Scientology case, and Peter Alexander is 17 on the road after tomorrow. Those are two key 18 witnesses. And they will not be back until the 15th 19 or after the 15th. 20 THE COURT: Well, as I said, I have the week of 21 the 10th and the week of the 17th. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: We have a lot of senior judge days 24 left all, of which have to be used by July, so I'm 25 in a real good position of getting all I want. 251 1 I told you all that -- this is only to correct 2 the record -- that I had never held but one 3 defendant in contempt, and that is true. But I did 4 hold the St. Petersburg Times in contempt once. A 5 reporter from the Times. Probably the only judge to 6 ever successfully hold the St. Pete Times in 7 contempt. It was affirmed on appeal, and they 8 withdrew their cert position for the Florida Supreme 9 Court. It is not listed as the St. Pete Times. I 10 didn't make the case against them. I made it 11 against the reporter. But I had every Times editor 12 up to the top here for the hearing. You'll -- I 13 didn't put her in jail; I suspended her sentence and 14 fined her. 15 But I forgot about that, so I actually had two 16 contempt cases that had to do with -- she had agreed 17 with me not to publish something and the very next 18 day it was in a big story and I couldn't allow that 19 to happen. 20 I want to know from Ms. Brooks' attorney, you 21 are here, as I indicated at some point in time in 22 this hearing, it's very difficult for the Court to 23 hear witnesses admit they have committed perjury. 24 And I'm involved in all kinds of hearings. Because 25 of that, and not consider orders to show cause, 252 1 should I file an order to show cause, I need to know 2 whether you will accept service for your client. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I shall, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, will you accept service 5 from your client? 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, we will. 7 THE COURT: I can only go that far now because 8 they are the only two that admitted to me committing 9 perjury. If we have more than that that I decided 10 have, we'll go from there. 11 So as I said, I don't have the time right now 12 to worry with it, but if that time comes, I'll just 13 mail it to you and you'll accept service if that is 14 okay, rather than -- 15 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 16 THE COURT: I got to thinking about it, that is 17 what I did for the Times. I called and had them -- 18 said, "Would you like me to mail this to you, or 19 just hand it to you." He said yes, he would accept 20 service. 21 Now, the last thing I want to do, I want to get 22 this hearing finished so you-all know whether you 23 have a trial or not, who will try the case, so I can 24 make arrangements to get this thing done. And I 25 think that would be good for all of the lawyers, and 253 1 I have already told you that. 2 So with that in mind, Ms. Brooks is on the 3 stand. And Mr. Lirot -- 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may it please the 5 Court -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Request to produce had been 8 furnished on Ms. Brooks, and the Court instructed us 9 to comply with it as of today, which we've done, and 10 I can file the response to the Court. 11 I wanted to advise the Court that we have 12 complied, and probably overcomplied, as far as 13 documents -- we attached a lawsuit which is not 14 exactly responsive, but in an -- 15 THE COURT: Is that the notice to produce filed 16 in the other case? 17 MR. McGOWAN: It was filed in this case -- 18 THE COURT: The only notice to produce I saw 19 was one filed by the plaintiffs in this case, and I 20 thought it was -- 21 MR. McGOWAN: It could be in the other case. 22 It is Church versus Dell Liebreich, you are right. 23 And it was sought -- it sought production of various 24 confidentiality agreements, any evidence of 25 blackmail or extortion by the Church. 254 1 THE COURT: Yes, and I think they meant for it 2 to be filed here, but I think they styled it in the 3 other case. So I don't have a problem if you want 4 to file your original here since this was the day of 5 return and you are here and then send a copy up 6 there. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. That is what we've done. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Just so the Court knows, two of 10 the items that were requested -- 11 THE COURT: First of all, is that all right 12 with you-all? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Yes, it is. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. McGOWAN: One of the items requested was 16 Stacy Brooks' personal income tax returns for the 17 past five years. As a practical matter, they are in 18 Atlanta where she lives. 19 As you know, she was here Friday, and it's a 20 30-day request, so she couldn't get them. 21 We also objected to the production of those. 22 We don't know what -- whether they calculate or not 23 calculate it will lead to discovery of admissible 24 evidence, at least for purpose of this hearing, and 25 also we think it is an invasion of privacy, 255 1 burdensome and oppressive. 2 In terms of the tax returns of the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust, likewise there was one filed for 4 one year, and there was another that would be due 5 for 2001 that has not been even prepared, so it 6 doesn't exist. That return is in Atlanta -- 7 THE COURT: We can't hear that all. Just go 8 ahead and file what you have. 9 MR. McGOWAN: I just wanted to tell you what we 10 didn't comply with and what we objected to. 11 THE COURT: Did you make a copy for me, by any 12 chance? 13 MR. McGOWAN: This is the original. I -- 14 THE COURT: Counsel, somebody needs to make a 15 copy for me. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 17 THE COURT: Since it has to do directly with 18 this hearing. Okay? 19 Madam clerk, you want to take this? Would you 20 rather have it since it is styled in that case filed 21 up there? It might be better thing to do, file it 22 up there and copy here? 23 MR. DANDAR: Either way. 24 THE COURT: Madam clerk, we can get it stamped 25 in today so it shows whatever is complied with is 256 1 complied with as of today and then make a copy for 2 this case. 3 THE CLERK: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Send the original up to Clearwater, 5 but file it today. And while you are making the 6 copy for here, maybe you can make me an extra copy. 7 THE CLERK: I will. 8 THE COURT: Will you do that? 9 THE CLERK: Yes, I will. 10 THE COURT: And get it to me by tomorrow? 11 THE CLERK: Yes. 12 MR. McGOWAN: The other thing is housekeeping. 13 There was a scrivener's error in Ms. Brooks' 14 affidavit. Basically Paragraph 18, it could have 15 been misread, it had payments to two individuals. 16 She just clarified the meaning of the sentence. 17 It's not very substantive, but I wanted to file that 18 with the Court while she was on the stand. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 MR. FUGATE: One housekeeping matter -- 21 THE COURT: Wait a minute, let's see if he's 22 done. 23 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. 24 THE COURT: If he's done, we'll go on to the 25 next person with housekeeping matters. 257 1 MR. McGOWAN: That is all I have. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. FUGATE: I understand after I left that you 4 were handed up a copy of all of Mr. Minton's 5 depositions. I have a copy which I'll hand up to 6 the Court and tell the Court and counsel they are 7 all of Dell Liebreich's depositions, in case the 8 Court needed those. 9 THE COURT: I may have hers. I'm not sure. 10 MR. FUGATE: If you don't, I'll leave this up 11 here, if I can approach. 12 THE COURT: That is good. I don't know if that 13 contained all of Mr. Minton's depositions. It 14 contained all of the ones up through an April 8 15 date, but I don't know if he's been deposed after 16 that, because it seemed there was one -- supposed to 17 be one deposition where he was to purge himself of 18 this -- of this perjury and it was not in there. 19 MR. FUGATE: I think that was the hearing -- 20 the sentencing hearing on Friday. 21 THE COURT: So there was no deposition before 22 the hearing? 23 MR. DANDAR: There was -- 24 MR. FUGATE: There was -- 25 MR. DANDAR: There is a deposition on April 8 258 1 in Wally Pope's office of Mr. Minton. They didn't 2 finish, and they were supposed to continue that on 3 April 9 in the afternoon after the hearing. There 4 was a hearing before Judge Baird to purge Mr. Minton 5 of his contempt. My brother showed up at Wally 6 Pope's office at one o'clock or so for the 7 deposition, and Wally Pope told him it was canceled. 8 So we never got the chance to cross-examine 9 Mr. Minton before the Judge Baird hearing went 10 forward on disqualification. 11 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then, I do have that 12 deposition. And that is the last -- it was not 13 really very much related to this case. 14 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 15 THE COURT: LMT -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Nothing at all. 17 MR. FUGATE: I stand corrected. You have that 18 one, and then the other testimony I think is the 19 9th, which is the sentencing before Judge Baird. 20 THE COURT: I have all that. 21 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Any other housekeeping 23 matters? No? Okay. Let me look through my notes 24 here. And you may inquire. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, judge. May it please 259 1 the Court, counsel. 2 CROSS-EXAMINATION 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm Luke Lirot. I want to ask you 5 some questions about some of your earlier testimony and some 6 of the affidavits that you filed in this case. 7 And I would like to start off by asking you about 8 the meetings that you testified to relative to trying to 9 settle -- reach global settlement with the Church of 10 Scientology. When did you first consider doing that? 11 A Oh, I believe the subject first came up during a 12 series of conversations that I had with Mr. Howie, perhaps 13 in January -- probably that began in January. 14 Q January of 2002? 15 A Yes. 16 Q This year? 17 A Yes. I think so. 18 Q All right. And prior to that you didn't have any 19 interest in trying to reach any global settlement on any of 20 these issues involving the Church of Scientology? 21 A Mmm, I believe it was in January when -- when I 22 spoke to Mr. Howie as I began to -- 23 Q Okay. Was Mr. -- 24 THE COURT: Wait a minute, she may not have 25 been done. She said, "When I began to," and -- 260 1 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Had you finished? 3 THE WITNESS: I had. I think I'm taking too 4 long, your Honor. But when I began to think that 5 that might be a resolution of this situation. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q All right. Was Mr. Howie your counsel at that 9 point? 10 A No. He wasn't. He was Mr. Minton's counsel. 11 Q Okay. Why would you be getting in touch with 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A Well, at that time, Mr. Minton -- I think I 14 testified on Friday, Mr. Minton was very distraught and very 15 upset and depressed about the situation that he found 16 himself in. And he was not being very communicative with 17 anyone, including his own attorney. And I was very 18 concerned about -- about him. 19 Q Okay. 20 A And so I was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 21 concerns. 22 Q How would you know all this about Mr. Minton's 23 distraught nature and I guess what would clearly appear to 24 be some intimate knowledge about his personal feelings? 25 A Well, I live with him. 261 1 Q Okay. And what is that living arrangement? 2 A Mmm, well, for the most part, I'm at his house in 3 New Hampshire, and we also now have a house in Atlanta. But 4 we haven't spent very much time there. So the house had to 5 have some work done on it in Atlanta. So for the most part, 6 we live in New Hampshire. 7 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to get at, 8 nobody is trying to be embarrassing here, but are 9 you-all living together in some sort of a friendship 10 relationship? Or is it more than that? 11 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I love him and we 12 live together in a relationship of two people who 13 love each other. 14 THE COURT: Okay. So it's an intimate 15 relationship, when you talk about those type of 16 things? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How did that relationship evolve? When did you 20 first meet Mr. Minton? 21 A In September of 1997. My husband at the time, 22 Vaughn Young, made a posting on the Internet in which he 23 described a situation that we were in in which Scientology 24 was basically harassing us in ways that was causing us to 25 feel that we were going to need to stop doing any 262 1 anti-Scientology work. 2 Q What were they doing to you? 3 A Oh, they -- well, at the time, I had a cat 4 sanctuary, or at least the beginnings of a cat sanctuary. 5 And I was -- and it sort of had grown more than I had meant 6 for -- not more than I meant for it to, but more than I 7 planned. So I had more animals in this house that we were 8 renting than the residential regulations allowed. 9 And it was my belief, and my husband's belief, 10 that the Scientology was responsible for a number of 11 anonymous phone calls being made to animal control, and then 12 after that calls that were being made to the zoning 13 department. Because the animal control calls -- you know, 14 animal control would come out every day because they had 15 these complaints. And the house was really clean and -- and 16 it was okay. So then phone calls were made to the zoning 17 department. And, you know, we were violating the zoning 18 regulations. 19 So our landlord -- 20 THE COURT: This is a lot more than I need to 21 know about this. 22 MR. LIROT: I think you are right, your Honor. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q I appreciate your thorough nature -- 25 THE COURT: To say nothing for the fact I read 263 1 it in Mr. Minton's deposition so I already knew 2 about it. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I didn't know about it, 4 Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q In any event, this cat sanctuary, was this just 7 something you did as a hobby or did you get paid for that 8 or -- 9 A Mmm, it was something that I really cared deeply 10 about. In fact, I'm still involved in that kind of work 11 with animals. And -- 12 Q My question was, were you getting any money for 13 it? Or was this just -- I mean, did you sell any of the 14 cats? 15 A Well, it wasn't a situation where the cats would 16 be sold. It was -- well, I guess it is semantics, but when 17 a cat would be adopted -- because what we would do would be 18 rescue a cat and find a good home for it. And so -- 19 Q Did you get any money -- 20 A Yes. 21 Q -- at all? 22 A So -- 23 Q You were making money? 24 A So when a person would adopt a cat, they would pay 25 a fee for the cat. 264 1 Q Okay. Well, I think in your affidavit you said 2 that during that period of time your sole source of income 3 was drafting what was referred to, I guess, as 4 anti-Scientology affidavits. 5 A I believe I said it was my primary source of 6 income. 7 Q You didn't say it was your sole source of income? 8 A Well, let me check. 9 Q It's all right. The affidavit will speak for 10 itself. And I'm not trying to pick on you about -- you 11 know, I'm sure whatever you made from selling a cat here and 12 there is probably not an extensive amount of money. I'm 13 just trying to check the facts. 14 A I'm not seeing it right now, but I believe I said 15 primary. 16 Q All right. Now, let me backtrack a little bit. 17 So in 1997, you had an opportunity -- or I guess you said 18 your husband at that time, Mr. Young, had posted something 19 on the Internet that apparently Mr. Minton responded to. 20 What was that? 21 A Yes, it was a very lengthy posting in which he 22 described our circumstance. And basically it was meant as 23 an explanation for people as to why we were going to go -- 24 become inactive in our anti-Scientology work. 25 Q Why you were going to become inactive? 265 1 A Why we were going to become inactive. Yes. 2 Q So as I understand it then, there was some 3 announcement that you and Mr. Young, who had been 4 Scientologists for I think what you testified to as 15 years 5 for you, 20 years for him? 6 A 15 years. 7 Q You both left Scientology? 8 A In 1989. 9 Q I think that clearly there was some discontent 10 after you -- 11 A We were very disgusted, yes. 12 Q Why? 13 A Mmm, we both had some really, really bad 14 experiences during the time we were in Scientology. 15 Q Okay. Now, I mean, I guess my question would be, 16 you had bad experiences, then your testimony was that 17 lawyers would track you down and get you to sign these 18 affidavits, or -- 19 A No. That wasn't my testimony. 20 Q Well, you prepared a number of affidavits. 21 A Yes, I did. 22 Q How many do you think you prepared? 23 A Oh, probably, I would estimate, as many as 10. 24 THE COURT: Excuse me just a second. I'm up 25 here trying to listen, but I'm getting frustrated. 266 1 I can't seem to put my hand on Ms. Brooks' main 2 affidavit. I have one here that is four pages, but 3 that was the first one. 4 Then we had -- 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think it is Exhibit 72, if 6 I'm not mistaken, of the omnibus motion. 7 THE COURT: All right. But I had another copy 8 of it, too. 9 THE WITNESS: Do you want to borrow mine, your 10 Honor? 11 THE COURT: No. I'll find it. All right. I 12 got it. Go on ahead. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Let me bring you back to 2002, Ms. Brooks. I'll 16 ask you some questions about the past later. 17 2002, apparently Mr. Minton is distraught. You 18 get a hold of Mr. Howie. Didn't Mr. Minton have Mr. Merrett 19 as counsel at that point in time, John Merrett? 20 A In January of 2002? I believe not. If he hadn't 21 formally discharged him as counsel, he was not considering 22 him to be counsel at that time, as I recall. 23 Q All right. So January 2002, you call Mr. Howie, I 24 guess on behalf of Mr. Minton. And at that point in time, 25 you indicated you wanted to reach some global settlement 267 1 with Scientology? 2 A Mmm, I don't believe that that is how the 3 conversation went. But we did -- Mr. Howie actually brought 4 up the possibility of settlement in the breach of contract 5 case. And when he brought that possibility up, I said to 6 him, "I know Scientology won't settle just one case with 7 Mr. Minton. If -- if you -- Mmm, if you approach them to 8 settle just one case, I guarantee you that they will come 9 back and say they want a global settlement." 10 Then Mr. Howie asked me to explain to him what 11 that meant. And I told him what I thought it meant. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: Mr. Howie really hadn't been 14 involved in this case up until then. Is that right? 15 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I don't believe so. I think 16 he had been just on the breach case at that point. 17 But -- I don't know if there was anything going on 18 in regard to Mr. Minton in the case at that time. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, here is a copy if 20 you want. 21 THE COURT: Thanks. I finally got to it, 22 but -- is that an extra one? I'll take it. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is an extra one. 24 THE COURT: Thank you. The reason I was 25 looking for mine, I read it and I made some notes on 268 1 it, but, you know, I'll just have to make new ones. 2 Go ahead. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Do you know how it was Mr. Minton came to retain 5 Mr. Howie as his counsel? 6 A Oh, yes. 7 Q Was he referred by Mr. Dandar? Did Mr. Dandar 8 help him find Mr. Howie? 9 A No. 10 Q Mr. Dandar had nothing to do with telling 11 Mr. Minton that Mr. Howie was a good attorney and that he 12 was available to serve as counsel? 13 A No. 14 Q Well, how did Mr. Minton find Mr. Howie? 15 A Mr. Minton had a criminal trial maybe in 2000. 16 And he retained Denis DeVlaming as his criminal counsel. 17 And Mr. Howie was an attorney who worked with Mr. DeVlaming 18 on a regular basis. And Mr. DeVlaming brought Mr. Howie in 19 on that case. 20 And then Mr. Howie -- well, Mr. Minton at first 21 had Mr. DeVlaming representing him in another case that was 22 before Judge Penick regarding an injunction. And then 23 Mr. DeVlaming felt that it was going on -- going into areas 24 that really weren't his area of expertise. And so Mr. Howie 25 ended up becoming Mr. Minton's counsel in that case. 269 1 Q All right. Do you know Dr. Garko? Do you know 2 who he is? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. I don't know if the Court knows, but 5 can you tell the Court who Dr. Garko is? 6 A Dr. Garko is Mr. Dandar's trial consultant. 7 Q Okay. Were you aware that Mr. Dandar and Mr. -- 8 and Dr. Garko were trying to get Attorney DeVlaming to 9 represent Mr. Minton at that time? 10 A Are you saying -- 11 Q Prior to -- prior to Mr. Minton retaining 12 Mr. Howie? 13 A That Mr. Dandar helped Mr. Minton find 14 Mr. DeVlaming? 15 Q No, that he was trying to get Mr. DeVlaming to 16 represent him at that point in time? 17 A You mean for his criminal trial? 18 Q For any proceedings in early January of -- excuse 19 me, January of 2002? 20 A 2002? 21 Q January -- let me just back up a little, ma'am. 22 You had testified that Mr. Howie had gone, met 23 with Mr. Minton, and at that point there was consideration 24 for working out a settlement with the Church of Scientology. 25 My question was -- 270 1 A That is not what I testified to. 2 Q I'm sorry? 3 A That is not what I testified to. 4 Q My question was, how did Mr. Minton end up with 5 Mr. Howie? And I'm just asking if you remember that -- 6 A I'm telling you. 7 Q I understand, but do you recall Mr. Dandar trying 8 to get Denis DeVlaming to assist as Mr. -- Mr. Minton in the 9 breach case prior to retaining Mr. Howie? 10 A I don't know if it was in the breach case, but I 11 know Mr. Dandar, when he was in New Hampshire, at the end of 12 February, said -- offered to go and see Mr. DeVlaming and 13 see if he would come in as -- as another counsel for 14 Mr. Minton. 15 Q So Mr. Minton already had Mr. Howie as counsel at 16 that point in time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Did Mr. Howie come up to New Hampshire to discuss 19 the possibility -- 20 A No. 21 Q -- of settlement? 22 A No. 23 Q Did you come down here or communicate with him 24 over the phone? 25 A It was over the phone, as I recall. I don't 271 1 believe we had a meeting with him in person. 2 Q All right. So as I understand it, Mr. Minton 3 retained Mr. Howie to try to settle the breach case as we're 4 referring to it -- 5 A Well, he already had Mr. Howie as his attorney. 6 Q Okay. But in early January of 2002, Mr. Minton 7 decided that he would talk to Mr. Howie and they were going 8 to try to work out a settlement of the breach case. Is that 9 correct? 10 A Yes. That is correct. 11 Q All right. And after that, apparently you 12 interjected some concern that it would be useless to settle 13 that case because Scientology wouldn't give you the benefit 14 of any -- any resolution of that case unless there were 15 other cases resolved. Is that correct? 16 A That is not correct. 17 Q All right. Correct me. 18 A All right. 19 Q Tell me what really happened. 20 A What really happened is what I just said. Which 21 was that Mr. Howie and I had conversations in which 22 Mr. Howie suggested that because the costs involved in the 23 breach case were so low, that it would probably be a fairly 24 simple matter for him to broach the Scientology attorneys 25 with an offer of settlement on Mr. Minton's behalf. 272 1 And I said, "Well, they probably won't be willing 2 to do that, but I -- I want to talk to Mr. Minton and see if 3 he will authorize you to make that approach." 4 So then I talked with Mr. Minton and told him what 5 Mr. Howie had said and asked him if he would authorize 6 Mr. Howie to make that approach for settlement in the breach 7 case. And -- 8 Q Again, I'm sorry, maybe I'm not listening close 9 enough. What was the deal? What did you want to do in the 10 breach case to get Mr. Minton out of that case? 11 A Mmm, well, Mr. Howie said to me that -- like I 12 said, that the costs involved in the breach case were fairly 13 low, so that he -- 14 Q What kind of costs? I don't understand. Attorney 15 fees paid by -- 16 THE COURT: Counsel, you'll have to let her 17 finish when you ask a question, write it down, 18 because she does tend to go on and on. 19 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, I will watch myself. 20 THE COURT: You have to let her finish. Okay? 21 You can continue. 22 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'll try not to go on and 23 on, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: I didn't mean that disparagingly. 25 But sometimes we learn more than we need to learn. 273 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, okay. 2 A Oh, okay. So, well, you know, I'm not exactly 3 sure, but I guess it was attorney fees or whatever kind of 4 costs it is that you do when you settle a simple case. I'm 5 not really sure what that is. 6 But -- but -- but Mr. Howie said to me that the 7 costs were going to be fairly low in the breach case 8 because -- you know, I don't remember exactly -- but he did, 9 maybe -- he said something about Florida law, in Florida 10 costs are low. I don't know. Something like that. 11 In any case, he thought it would be a fairly 12 simple matter to settle that case. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q With the Church? On behalf of Mr. Minton? 15 A Right. 16 Q Were you named as a party in the breach case? 17 A Yes. 18 Q All right. Individually? Or as the operator of 19 the Lisa McPherson -- 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. What was alleged against you in that case? 22 What was the Church's complaint about what you did to bring 23 you into that case? 24 A I can't remember exactly. 25 THE COURT: You were named as an individual, as 274 1 well as LMT? Or just LMT? 2 THE WITNESS: Just the LMT. 3 THE COURT: You were the representative? 4 THE WITNESS: I am LMT, so -- 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right, do you remember what Mr. Minton's role 7 was? What the Church complained Mr. Minton did to bring him 8 in as a defendant in the breach case? 9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the case up in 10 Clearwater? 11 MR. LIROT: I'm -- Judge, I'm getting to the 12 global settlement here. 13 THE COURT: I know, but is that what we are 14 talking about? 15 MR. LIROT: Right, we call it the breach case. 16 THE COURT: That is the one where they said 17 they breached a contract that prohibited 18 Mr. Dandar -- or Mr. Liebreich, actually, from 19 bringing in David Miscavige. And they did so and, 20 therefore, they breached their agreement when they 21 did so, is that it? 22 MR. LIROT: I understand that aspect. I have 23 no idea how LMT or somebody else that is not part of 24 the agreement gets brought in as defendant. 25 THE COURT: I see what you are saying. If she 275 1 knows then. 2 MR. LIROT: If she knows. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q If you know, what was their complaint against 6 Mr. Minton? Did you know one way or another if Mr. Minton 7 was part of this contract or agreement that was being 8 allegedly breached? 9 A Well, you know, I haven't -- I haven't seen the 10 breach complaint in a while. But I can tell you that 11 generally speaking, Scientology was bringing Mr. Minton and 12 LMT into everything. And basically saying that -- you know, 13 generally saying, without using legal terms, that Mr. Minton 14 and LMT in the case were all the same thing. So I would 15 imagine -- although I don't remember too well what the 16 breach case said, I would imagine it followed that same 17 general theory. 18 Q Clarify. You said generally -- 19 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't know 20 myself. Mr. Minton wasn't originally a party there, 21 was he? 22 MR. DANDAR: No. 23 THE COURT: So wasn't he kind of brought in 24 when all of this -- the thought being that -- that 25 Mr. Minton was having influence over Mr. Dandar by 276 1 paying him money, and he was having influence over 2 this decision, the very thing that we're arguing 3 about here and, therefore, the motion was made to 4 add him as a party at that time? 5 MR. LIROT: That is my question. 6 MR. DANDAR: That -- 7 THE COURT: Isn't that it? 8 MR. DANDAR: That is it. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, I guess, Judge, this 10 opens another question. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You said generally. Were you and Mr. Minton named 13 in other lawsuits where the Church of Scientology was a 14 party? 15 A Well, I'm not sure if it happened yet or not. But 16 I think we were going to be named in the counterclaim. 17 Q Why would you want to settle a suit if you are not 18 named yet? 19 A We weren't settling that one. We were settling 20 the breach. 21 Q Were you already named as a party in the breach? 22 A I think so. Well, Mr. Minton was for sure. 23 Q So he's in it for sure. And Mr. Howie apparently 24 says we can probably get out of this one for some relatively 25 menial -- you know, it is reachable, the costs would be a 277 1 reachable event? 2 A Yes, in other words, it wouldn't be too much of a 3 burden on Mr. Minton to settle it. 4 THE COURT: When you say costs, ma'am, are you 5 talking about -- when you settle a case, you 6 normally settle for damages. In other words, you 7 settle because you are going to get a judgment -- 8 THE WITNESS: In Florida, is there a limit on 9 that? Are they low in Florida or something? 10 THE COURT: No, it is just normally I wouldn't 11 expect a lawyer to be talking about settling a case 12 for costs. He would probably say we can settle 13 this, but I don't imagine the damages would be too 14 big. 15 THE WITNESS: That would probably be the same. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q But, either way, you make it sound like it was a 18 relatively appealing manner of settlement. Is that true? 19 A Well, Mr. Howie thought it would be -- you know, 20 Mr. Howie thought that he could arrange a settlement with 21 them that would be appealing enough to Mr. Minton that he 22 would do it. 23 Q Okay. And what did you do next in that regard? 24 A I asked Mr. Minton if he would authorize Mr. Howie 25 to make that approach. 278 1 Q And -- 2 A And -- 3 Q I'm sorry. 4 A And -- 5 Q Go ahead and finish. 6 A I was jumping ahead. Sorry. 7 Q So basically you asked Mr. Minton, said, "Hey, can 8 I talk to Bruce Howie and we can try to work this out?" 9 A Yes. 10 Q What was your discussion with Mr. Minton? 11 A That Mr. Howie thought that he could come to a 12 reasonable settlement on the breach case. That I told him 13 that I was concerned that Scientology wouldn't agree to just 14 settling one case, but that I thought it was certainly 15 something that Mr. Howie should try to do. 16 Q So originally -- 17 A Something like that. 18 Q I'm sorry. Originally, you thought it was a good 19 idea Mr. Howie would just settle the breach case? 20 A I thought it would be great if they would. I just 21 didn't think that they would. 22 Q All right. Now, why is it that you are acting as 23 the go-between with Mr. Minton and Mr. Howie? 24 A Well, as I said earlier, Mr. Minton was in very 25 bad shape. He wasn't wanting to talk to anybody. He was 279 1 hardly leaving his house at all. And I was very concerned 2 about him, and he was speaking to Mr. Howie about my 3 concerns. 4 Q So Mr. Minton is not leaving the house at all, for 5 what reason? Why is he so distraught? 6 A Because Judge Baird had already been about to put 7 him in jail in October. Judge Schaeffer was -- he was 8 afraid Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird were going to 9 continue to come after him on contempt charges. He was 10 perjuring himself in depositions, and he was afraid that the 11 courts were going to -- well, he was just extremely afraid 12 that he was going to be destroyed over the whole situation. 13 Q So basically, as I understand your testimony, that 14 there was -- there were some depositions taken of 15 Mr. Minton, and he testified about this alleged agreement, 16 the agreement to, I guess, fund the Lisa McPherson Trust, 17 that was one concern. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q All right. And the other concern was about some 20 checks that I guess were not from Mr. Minton's account. 21 That was another concern? 22 A Well, he had testified that he had given 23 Mr. Dandar a certain amount of money, which was a lie, 24 because he had given Mr. Dandar a lot more money than he was 25 testifying to. 280 1 Q Okay. We'll get a chance to explore that. I'm 2 just trying to isolate your concerns, or at least what you 3 felt Mr. Minton's concerns were since you were acting as his 4 communicator, I guess. 5 A Well, I wouldn't characterize myself as his 6 communicator. 7 Q You were communicating messages between Mr. Minton 8 and Mr. Howie. Is that correct? 9 A Not really. I was just having a conversation with 10 Mr. Howie on my own, really. I wasn't acting as a 11 go-between because Mr. Minton was in such apathy about the 12 whole situation that he wasn't thinking that his attorneys 13 could even help him. 14 Q Well, I'm confused here. If he's apathetic and 15 he's not on the phone and you are making the phone calls, 16 that doesn't make you the communicator? I mean, does 17 Mr. Minton make any of these phone calls? 18 A He did after Mr. Howie and I spoke. 19 Q Okay. So basically you gave him a ray of hope, 20 said hey, maybe there is a way we can get you out of all 21 this. What I'm trying to ask, you are concerned about his 22 testimony about the agreement, or lack thereof, or whatever 23 he testified to -- 24 A No. That is not what I said. 25 Q All right. I'm just -- I'm asking the question 281 1 here. What were your primary concerns? You mentioned 2 perjury -- 3 A You want me to tell you? 4 Q -- false statements? And you described this 5 overall fear. I want to know specifically what it was -- 6 A I'll tell you. 7 Q -- that Mr. Minton was afraid of? 8 A I'll tell you. 9 Q Please. 10 A Well, actually, you have asked me several 11 questions. Let me answer it one at a time. 12 Q Please. 13 A The first question you asked was what was I 14 concerned about. What I was concerned about was 15 Mr. Minton's state of mind. That is what I was concerned 16 about. I was speaking to Mr. Howie, hoping that Mr. Howie 17 could do something that would cause Mr. Minton to feel 18 better than he was feeling. Because he was feeling really, 19 really bad. Mr. Minton's concerns, he wasn't particularly 20 voicing them at the time. I knew, generally speaking, that 21 he was very concerned about his perjury. But Mr. Minton was 22 not being very communicative, even to me. 23 All I knew was that the only possibility I could 24 see on the horizon for any help for Mr. Minton at all was 25 his attorney, Mr. Howie, and Mr. Jonas. So I was talking to 282 1 them, seeing if they could come up with any ideas for how to 2 help Mr. Minton in this situation he was in. 3 Q Well, so that sounds like it was a lot more than 4 concern about perjury. 5 A What? Why are you saying that? 6 Q I didn't say it. I think what you said was he's 7 concerned about perjury, but what I was concerned with was 8 his overall malaise, his discontent, he seemed to be 9 overwhelmed with angst. 10 A All I'm saying, Mr. Lirot, is that my concern was 11 Mr. Minton's state of mind. What Mr. Minton's particular 12 concerns were, he wasn't going into detail with me about. I 13 knew, generally speaking, that he was very concerned about 14 the situation that Mr. Dandar had -- or that he felt that 15 Mr. Dandar had put him in. That is what I knew. And that 16 is what I was talking to Mr. Howie about. 17 Q Okay. What exactly did you know about what 18 Mr. Minton was concerned with? You said about the perjury. 19 You said, "That's what I knew." And I'm trying to find out 20 if it is about the agreement and about a check. That is the 21 perjury. The alleged perjury? 22 A Well, what I knew then and what I know now, I'll 23 try and separate the two. 24 Well, I knew -- I for sure knew about the lying 25 about the agreement because I had also done that. You know, 283 1 saying that there was no agreement when there was. 2 Q Okay. 3 A So that I knew about for sure at that time. 4 Q So -- 5 A I also -- 6 Q You know for sure you lied about it in your 7 deposition? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q You lied about the agreement? 10 A Yes. I said that there was none when I knew there 11 was. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to 13 counsel cutting off her answers. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 I forget, too, you know, you get in hearings 16 and you break for the weekend and you read 17 depositions and you don't remember whether this has 18 been covered or not. I'm sure it maybe has, but I'm 19 going to ask because I can't remember. 20 What exactly is this agreement? Are we 21 referring to the agreement regarding some proceeds 22 from the lawsuit? 23 THE WITNESS: The bulk of the proceeds. 24 THE COURT: This is this unwritten bulk, 25 substantial, understanding, is that it? 284 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. Your Honor, it was the one 2 where the bulk of the proceeds of any judgment would 3 go to the LMT. 4 THE COURT: Right. And that bulk was never 5 defined? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, it would be defined, you 7 know, as far as a percentage, no. 8 THE COURT: And I read this weekend, I thought, 9 the only word ever used was bulk, but that wasn't. 10 I heard it defined now as substantial. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: I have heard it defined as two or 13 three other terms, I think bulk most of the time. 14 The long and short of it, you are talking about some 15 understanding but not a written understanding and 16 not something that is put in legal terms. 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Why would you lie about an agreement if there was 21 or wasn't one? 22 A Mr. Dandar had made it very clear that it was bad 23 for the case to talk about this agreement, that this 24 agreement needed to stop existing because Scientology was 25 using this agreement as something to try to, you know, put 285 1 some nefarious motive on all of us, so we needed to counter 2 this attempt to Scientology's part to make some -- to create 3 the impression of the nefarious motive by making that 4 agreement go away. 5 Q Okay. What nefarious motive? What is wrong with 6 having an agreement? 7 A Well, there wasn't anything wrong. But at the 8 time, especially after Judge Moody left the case and Quesada 9 came on the case, Judge Quesada -- Mr. Dandar started to 10 lose quite a number of motions. And he felt that -- I mean, 11 he felt that Judge Quesada was being blackmailed by 12 Scientology. He felt that the court system had been 13 corrupted by Scientology. He felt that there was a lot 14 of -- you know, Wally Pope he felt was being blackmailed. I 15 mean, the scenario that we were facing was kind of this 16 corrupt court system and this, you know, evil empire 17 corrupting this court system. And we had to counter all of 18 this manipulation of the court by the evil empire by doing 19 everything we possibly could -- it might be easier if he 20 just stood next to you, rather than jumping up and down. 21 THE COURT: That is disconcerting. 22 MR. LIROT: Do you want me to inquire from 23 counsel table? 24 THE COURT: That would be a lot easier. I 25 don't like it and -- 286 1 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 2 THE COURT: The only reason I'm not fussing 3 here, because I know you came on this case late. 4 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: If they were doing it, it would be 6 fussing at them. 7 MR. LIROT: I appreciate your indulgence. 8 MR. FUGATE: For the record, so it is clear, 9 Mr. Dandar was walking back and forth from the 10 podium. 11 THE COURT: Yes, and that is all right. 12 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record. 13 THE COURT: He's counsel and he's -- they are 14 co-counsel here, and I think he's probably letting 15 Mr. Lirot handle this, but obviously Mr. Lirot is 16 not up to the same speed that Mr. Dandar is, so I 17 have no problem. I just don't like people getting 18 up and down, up and down. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 20 Mr. Dandar said he thought Judge Quesada was 21 being blackmailed by Scientology? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Was he talking -- saying that about 24 me? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, Mmm, yes, your Honor. 287 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Did you know that to be true? 4 A What? 5 Q Was anybody being blackmailed? Did you know? 6 A Mmm, we certainly thought so. 7 Q Why? 8 A Why? Because why else would a judge be making 9 rulings against Mr. Dandar? I mean, what judge in their 10 right mind would be making rulings in favor of Scientology. 11 That is how we felt. So if a judge was making rulings in 12 favor of Scientology, it must be blackmail. That was -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- the -- the thinking. 15 Q I guess you have been around the block with 16 Scientology. Is that something that you had seen them do or 17 were aware of them doing in the past? 18 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 19 outside of the scope of -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A To blackmail someone? 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Yes. 24 A No. But I certainly thought it was something 25 that -- 288 1 Q I just -- I don't want to interrupt you, but that 2 is just a yes or no for that one. 3 A Okay. 4 Q So Scientology had done that in the past, yes or 5 no? 6 A Not that I know of. 7 Q You don't have any knowledge of Scientology 8 blackmailing anybody in the past? 9 A Mmm, is there some knowledge I have that you know 10 of? Because if there is, tell me. 11 THE COURT: Well, no, that is what he wants you 12 to answer. If he does, he'll undoubtedly slip it on 13 you and say gotcha. So he's asking you and you need 14 to tell the truth. If you know it, you have to say 15 it. If you don't, you don't. 16 A As I'm sitting here right now, I don't know of any 17 time that Scientology blackmailed somebody. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q How in the heck does this idea come up? You are 20 the one with the familiarity with Scientology. And, you 21 know, as far as this belief, I had some judges rule against 22 me and I don't automatically think my opponents are 23 blackmailing the judge. So how does this come up? 24 A Well, as I testified on Friday, there is a certain 25 degree of deamonizing that was going on. It is sort of 289 1 similar to the way Israel and Palestine are deamonizing each 2 other. The anti-Scientology side was deamonizing 3 Scientology in every possible way, as similar to the way the 4 Scientology side was deamonizing the anti-Scientology side, 5 as well. 6 I'm not saying this was one-sided, but it was -- I 7 mean, there is a large community of people today, as we 8 speak, who -- who see the situation in very black-and-white 9 terms. You know, Scientology is all bad. Mr. Dandar is all 10 good. Mmm, if something happens bad to Mr. Dandar, it is 11 because Scientology has done something bad. I mean, that is 12 just -- it was the thinking -- my thinking, it was the 13 climate in which we were operating. 14 Q So you just thought that this overwhelming cloud 15 of discontent with Scientology justified you to lie about 16 something regarding this amorphous agreement? 17 A No, it wasn't a cloud of discontent. It wasn't a 18 cloud of discontent. It was feeling -- it was a feeling 19 that Scientology was doing things that were illegal, and 20 they were corrupting the court system, and they were putting 21 Mr. Dandar and the case in jeopardy by coming after us. And 22 we had to do whatever we could to protect the case, help the 23 case. And as I said on Friday, there was an overall feeling 24 that the end justified the means. 25 Q Well, how does coming after you jeopardize a 290 1 wrongful death case that you are not a party to? 2 A Have you read -- have you read the pleadings and 3 the depositions of Mr. Minton and me? Mr. Lirot, if you 4 have read these things, you can't possibly be asking me that 5 question. Every question that they were asking of either 6 Mr. Minton or myself was about this wrongful death case. 7 Q Okay. 8 A There was no question about that. 9 Q Well -- 10 A That -- that the attempt was to harm the wrongful 11 death case through Mr. Minton and myself. There was no 12 question about that. And if you read the -- the previous 13 things that have happened in this case, I think that would 14 be clear. 15 And so Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned -- 16 Q Go ahead. 17 A Let me finish. 18 Q Yes? 19 A Mr. Dandar was very, very concerned to make sure 20 neither Mr. Minton nor I said anything that was going to 21 hurt the case. 22 THE COURT: What difference? I'm just kind of 23 curious. If the judges were being blackmailed, 24 there really wasn't much you could do about it, was 25 there? I mean, that doesn't make a great deal of 291 1 sense to me. Because if you back off an agreement 2 or you go forward with an agreement, if the other 3 side is paying off a judge or blackmailing a judge, 4 it doesn't really matter what you do. 5 THE WITNESS: But the way it was working -- in 6 other words, because Judge Quesada -- see, what 7 happened, Judge Moody had been limiting discovery 8 very, very narrowly from Mr. Dandar's side. Then 9 when Judge Quesada took over, he -- he started 10 ruling -- I mean, he just sort of threw out Judge 11 Moody's rulings and allowed for much, much broader 12 discovery of Mr. Minton and me. 13 So the problem that Mr. Dandar was trying to 14 solve was that Mr. Minton and I were being asked a 15 lot of questions in deposition that Judge Moody 16 hadn't allowed us to be asked. But now Judge 17 Quesada was allowing us to be asked. 18 And the feeling was that these questions 19 shouldn't be being allowed to be asked in the first 20 place. So that, you know, our -- you know, we 21 shouldn't be having to answer these questions. 22 And -- 23 THE COURT: So just go on ahead and come in and 24 commit -- I hate to tell you this, ma'am, but all of 25 a sudden, ma'am, it is making no sense. 292 1 But you continue on, Counselor. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q I guess that is my question. Why, if Judge 4 Quesada is making these harsh discovery rulings, would it 5 ever occur to you to lie about an agreement as a way to get 6 out of that? Where do those parallel lines intersect? 7 Please explain that to me. 8 A Well, because -- Mmm, basically what was happening 9 was that the case was taking a very bad turn with Judge 10 Quesada. And the discovery that Judge Quesada was allowing 11 was turning all of the attention onto Mr. Minton and the 12 LMT. And Mr. Dandar was trying to keep the attention from 13 going on to Mr. Minton and me -- or Mr. Minton and the LMT. 14 And -- 15 Q Okay. 16 A -- he was trying to minimize the involvement of 17 Mr. Minton and the LMT in the court's eyes. 18 Q Why? 19 A Because he didn't want -- he didn't want these 20 things to be coming out that were showing -- that would show 21 Mr. Minton's involvement in the case and the LMT's 22 involvement in the case. 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to the speculation, your 24 Honor. She's speculating. 25 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 293 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Well -- 3 THE COURT: For a little while. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q I have read the depositions. Don't most of the 6 questions talk about the LMT and the money in the LMT and 7 the records of the LMT that just don't have anything to do 8 with the wrongful death case? 9 A Are you talking about my deposition or 10 Mr. Minton's? 11 Q Let's ask you what you know about yours. Wasn't 12 it all LMT? 13 A There were a lot of questions about the LMT. In 14 fact, all of it was about the LMT, including was the LMT 15 going to be getting the bulk of the proceeds of the case. 16 Q Why does that affect the wrongful death case? 17 A Whether the LMT would get the bulk of the 18 proceeds? 19 Q Yes. 20 A Well, as I said, Scientology was claiming that 21 because the LMT was going to get the bulk of the proceeds, 22 this was why -- you know, basically why Mr. Minton was 23 controlling the case, this was why he was so involved in the 24 case and things like that. And Mr. Dandar was trying to 25 downplay those aspects of the case. 294 1 Q Because it wasn't true. Right? 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q It wasn't true, was it? 4 A Excuse me, but yes, it was. Yes, it was. 5 Q That -- your position is that the agreement was 6 true that Mr. Minton was going to get some bulk of the 7 proceeds to fund the Lisa McPherson Trust? 8 A The LMT was going to get the bulk proceeds. 9 Q So what? Why is that a bad thing? 10 A Well, in fact, in -- in -- you know, in the 11 general scheme of things, it's not a bad thing. There is 12 nothing wrong with it. But it was being painted in a very 13 bad light, and Mr. Dandar was very concerned about having 14 that come out, because he was afraid of how Scientology was 15 going to be able to use it to discredit the case. 16 Q But -- 17 A Because they were trying -- 18 Q Weren't they already trying it? 19 I didn't mean to interrupt you. 20 A Go ahead. 21 Q Weren't they already trying to discredit this case 22 by making suggestions that you knew to be false? 23 Let me ask you this? Did Mr. Minton have a 24 nefarious motive in funding or loaning or giving or 25 transferring or in any way giving Mr. Dandar a penny in any 295 1 capacity for the wrongful death case? Is there something 2 wrong with that? 3 A Mmm -- 4 THE COURT: There are two different questions 5 there, Counselor. The first one is did Mr. Minton 6 have a nefarious motive. And I presume that 7 question needs to be answered first. Then the next 8 question, I guess, is there anything wrong with 9 that. I suppose it depends on maybe what the answer 10 is. Maybe -- you know, maybe you don't know. Did 11 Mr. Minton have some bad motive in funding the Lisa 12 McPherson case? Or giving money to Mr. Dandar so he 13 could pursue the case? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. He felt like he 15 was, you know, fighting the good fight and, you 16 know, crusading against something that was really 17 bad. 18 THE COURT: And that was Scientology, as far as 19 he was concerned, the Church of Scientology? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So he gave money to Mr. Dandar, I 22 suppose, as I read many of his depositions, as much 23 as he had given money to other folks involved in 24 some litigation against Scientology, needed money to 25 carry on? 296 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So I guess that brings you 3 to the second part of the question. 4 Was there anything bad about that? In other 5 words, he had no -- he had no nefarious intention so 6 there couldn't have been anything bad about it, 7 Counselor, so we don't even need to get to the 8 second one. 9 MR. LIROT: Okay. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So why would you lie about the agreement -- 12 THE COURT: Counselor, asked and answered. You 13 may not like the answer but she answered it three 14 times. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. 16 THE COURT: I know what her answer is, and it 17 will be the same if you ask it six times so really I 18 don't need it again. 19 MR. LIROT: I'll move on, Judge. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q So you talked about the agreement. 22 What else was it that concerned you? Checks? 23 Money? Was that the additional concern of perjury? 24 A What concerned me? 25 Q Yes. 297 1 A Because what I already said was what concerned me 2 was Mr. Minton's state of mind. 3 Q Okay. But you said his state of mind, as I 4 understand it, was based on concerns about the impact of 5 committing perjury in these cases. Is that correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And we've identified what I understand 8 your testimony to be, two issues about that perjury, one 9 about this agreement, whether there was or wasn't an 10 agreement, and the other is about some checks. Is that 11 correct? 12 A Mmm, I believe -- I believe so. 13 Q Okay. 14 A There may have been other things but -- 15 Q What would those be, what other things? 16 THE COURT: What he wants to know is everything 17 that you knew that was bothering Mr. Minton when you 18 made this call to Mr. Howie. 19 THE WITNESS: Right, I know. 20 THE COURT: I think we're talking about the 21 perjury that you mentioned, and you told him one was 22 the agreement, one was the checks. 23 And is there anything else that you know that 24 he committed perjury about, in general terms? 25 THE WITNESS: I think at that time those were 298 1 the two things I knew about. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. After that, do you know of anything 4 else? 5 A Well, now, as I sit here, I know of other things. 6 But I think at that time, that was what he had talked to me 7 about. 8 Q What other things would those be? 9 A That I know about now? 10 Q Sure. 11 A Mmm, I believe he testified -- Mmm -- I would have 12 to review his affidavit. But at that time in January those 13 were the two main things. I don't really remember, as I'm 14 sitting here, what else. But I think there are other things 15 covered in his affidavit. 16 Q Would you agree the two big things are this 17 agreement and the check? 18 A Well, the two things that I knew about in January 19 were those two things. 20 Q Okay. Now, the Judge was right, I had talked 21 about the agreement. Let's talk about the check. What 22 check was it he seemed to be concerned about? 23 A Mmm, I don't recall that he was very specific 24 about this with me. He just was very, very upset with 25 Mr. Dandar because he had perjured himself about how much 299 1 money he had given to the case. 2 Q Do you know on what basis he felt he had perjured 3 himself? 4 A I don't believe he went into much detail with me 5 about that. But by that time, January of 2002, he was -- 6 Mmm -- very upset with Mr. Dandar. 7 Q Okay. Did you have knowledge that the Church 8 already knew about a significant sum of money that 9 Mr. Minton had tendered in some fashion to Mr. Dandar? 10 The Church already knew Mr. Dandar received some 11 money from Mr. Minton. Is that true? 12 A I'm sure that's true. 13 Q Okay. Over a million bucks, does that sound like 14 a fair round number? 15 A I believe they did. I believe they did. 16 Q So the Church already knows that Mr. Minton -- and 17 I'll just say gave, for practical purposes, without that 18 reflecting any legal analysis of the money -- Mr. Minton 19 gave Mr. Dandar over a million dollars and the Church 20 already knew all about that. Right? 21 A I think Mr. Minton loaned over a million dollars 22 to the estate would be more accurate. 23 Q Okay. All right. But it's no secret that there 24 is money flying around. Is that correct? 25 A That there is money flying around? 300 1 Q That it is no secret -- please, I don't want to be 2 flip. 3 A That was a little flip. 4 Q At that point the Church of Scientology was well 5 aware that Robert Minton, in some form or another, had put 6 over a million dollars into the wrongful death suit 7 involving Lisa McPherson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q So they already knew that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So what difference would more money make? What 12 possible difference, in your mind, would getting more money 13 make if they already know about a million dollars? 14 A I don't know. 15 Q I don't, either. Why lie about it? 16 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 17 the gratuitous comment. 18 THE COURT: Sustained. 19 MR. LIROT: I won't argue. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: We don't need any editorializing. 21 Save that for me. 22 MR. LIROT: I apologize, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to say -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, I wasn't clear. 25 THE COURT: I think this is what he's trying to 301 1 say: If the Church already knew that Mr. Minton had 2 given over a million dollars, any way you want to 3 look at it, to assist in funding this case, why 4 would they want to lie about more? In other words, 5 a million dollars is a lot of money. And we now 6 know we are talking about two more checks, one for 7 $500,000, one for $750,000. Those are the two main 8 checks. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, there was one for 500 and 10 one for 250, and the one for 250 had not been 11 written yet -- 12 THE COURT: One for 500. So I guess the 13 question was, if the Church already knew that 14 Mr. Minton had given, to assist somebody, over a 15 million dollars, why would it matter if he had given 16 him, at that point, a million-five? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think that is 18 a question that Mr. Minton would better be able to 19 answer than I. 20 But -- but as I understand it, Mr. Dandar had 21 not reported the $500,000 check to the Court and had 22 asked Mr. Minton not to report the $500,000 check to 23 the Court. Why he asked him not to report it, I 24 don't know. 25 THE COURT: So -- so, if I understand you 302 1 correctly, Mr. Minton was doing a favor for 2 Mr. Dandar. He didn't know anything -- he wasn't 3 thinking how that would affect the case; he was 4 thinking Mr. Dandar said, "I haven't reported it so 5 I don't want you to report it." He was trying to do 6 his friend, Mr. Dandar, a favor. 7 THE WITNESS: And, Mr. Dandar, you know, why it 8 would make a difference, $500,000, more or less, I 9 can't answer that question. But -- I mean, all I'm 10 telling you now is what I have been told by 11 Mr. Minton. 12 THE COURT: Right. 13 THE WITNESS: You know. But what I understood 14 from him was that this was also part of this attempt 15 to try to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement in the 16 case. Why $500,000 would do that one way or 17 another, I don't know. But, you know, Mr. Dandar 18 wanted him not to report that money. Mr. Dandar 19 told Mr. Minton that he wasn't reporting it because 20 he was trying to minimize Mr. Minton's involvement 21 in the case, as far as I understood. I may be wrong 22 about that. But -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Well, I want to explore what you did know. I 25 guess you responded to the judge it was two checks, one for 303 1 500 and one for 250? 2 A What I was explaining to the judge is that at the 3 time when you are talking about, the $250,000 check had not 4 been written yet. 5 Q So we're talking about one check for $500,000? 6 A Yes. 7 Q After it's already common knowledge that 8 Mr. Dandar has gotten over a million from Mr. Minton? 9 A I think you said that before. 10 Q But you agree with me on that? 11 A I think I already did. 12 Q Okay. Was there any order for Mr. Dandar to 13 provide evidence or -- or do you know of any reason 14 Mr. Dandar would have had to say anything about the $500,000 15 check? 16 A Apparently so. Apparently -- but again, I'm 17 probably not the best person to ask this. But from what I 18 understood, he made some sort of a proffer to the Court and 19 had not included that check. 20 Q Were you following the case closely at that point 21 in time? 22 A No. 23 Q All right. What were you occupying yourself with 24 at that point in time? 25 A At which point? 304 1 Q During the time this check changed hands? I guess 2 this is May of 2000? 3 A I was working at the LMT. 4 Q So did -- when did Mr. Minton tell you that he had 5 lied about this one check? 6 A After the LMT was closed down, I believe -- or, 7 no -- Mmm, perhaps -- I'm not sure when a deposition came up 8 about that. It may have been at the end of the summer of 9 2000 or end of 2000. I'm not really sure when it first came 10 up for him. 11 Q I'm sorry, so my time frame is we have a $500,000 12 check that is not drawn on Mr. Minton's account. Are you 13 aware of that? It doesn't have Mr. Minton's name on it, it 14 is just a $500,000 check? 15 A I am now. 16 Q You are now? And it was May of 2000 or 17 thereabouts, right? 18 A As I understand it, yes. 19 THE COURT: Can we establish something? Do we 20 know now if -- matter of fact, I would like to know 21 if this check is from Mr. Minton or wasn't. Do we 22 know that as a matter of fact yet? 23 MR. LIROT: We don't know that, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Mr. Minton says it is. He 305 1 testified it was his money. 2 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Dandar knew it was. 3 THE COURT: But, I mean, we don't have an 4 agreement from both sides that there is some number 5 that equates back to some bank and that bank says 6 that is an account registered to Robert Minton? 7 THE WITNESS: I think -- 8 THE COURT: Wait a second, I'm asking the 9 lawyers now. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, I would just respond from 12 our perspective, we've heard testimony, but we don't 13 have anything other than the testimony of Mr. Minton 14 regarding that, and we're still not even sure 15 exactly what he said about that check. As we 16 recall, in looking at the -- and I'm sure they'll 17 correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the testimony 18 was, "I caused it to be issued," was his testimony. 19 Now, whether that means it was his or he put the 20 money somewhere, we don't even know. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think the record of the 23 testimony before Judge Baird was that he had caused 24 the checks to be issued and that he -- that it was 25 from his account, and it went to Mr. Dandar and he 306 1 gave it or handed it to Mr. Dandar. 2 THE COURT: Of course, Mr. Minton admitted to 3 committing perjury? 4 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 5 THE COURT: So we have that -- we can't 6 necessarily just assume everything that he said was 7 true. Maybe what he said before was true. We don't 8 know. 9 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is 10 his money? 11 MR. FUGATE: I think -- 12 THE COURT: I'm not asking what he would say. 13 I'm asking you, do you have any proof that is his 14 money? 15 MR. FUGATE: It's my understanding that is his 16 money and that he produced a copy of the check to 17 indicate it was his money. 18 THE COURT: Where did he produce it? 19 MR. FUGATE: At the hearing. There is a copy 20 of the check produced in the Baird hearing. 21 THE COURT: Well, that doesn't have his name on 22 it. I saw that. That is a bank check. 23 MR. FUGATE: You asked me a question. That is 24 my answer. 25 THE COURT: So you don't have proof it is his 307 1 other than his word? 2 MR. FUGATE: That's right. 3 THE COURT: All right. So we don't know if 4 it's his money or not yet. Other than he says it 5 is. 6 MR. LIROT: Fine. 7 THE COURT: Let me ask you something, while I'm 8 thinking about it, if I may, ma'am. 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, he did cause that check to 10 be produced by calling his bank and having copies 11 from his bank sent to him -- 12 THE COURT: I want to know if we have something 13 from that bank that says this account -- this money 14 came from an account that is registered in the name 15 of Robert Minton. If it doesn't -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I don't have anything. 17 THE COURT: I just want to know if you had that 18 kind of proof. If you don't, that is all I need to 19 know. Thank you. Mr. -- I noticed in reading 20 depositions of Mr. Minton I heard that -- well, 21 let's put it this way, in reading the testimony of 22 Mr. Dandar, Mr. Dandar indicates that this money, 23 according to Mr. Minton, came from some third party, 24 unknown anonymous source. And I felt that was 25 fairly outrageous that anybody would believe you 308 1 could get $500,000. To me, that is a huge sum of 2 money, from somebody that nobody knew from Europe. 3 And so as I'm reading this deposition of 4 Mr. Minton, I see where Mr. Minton said over and 5 over the same thing about LMT. Which is your 6 corporation. That you got $300,000, because that is 7 the money he put in, from some -- I can't remember 8 who this guy is, some fellow, apparently also an 9 anti-Scientology person, with a German name. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: Mr. Lund or something like that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Andreas Heidal-Lund.-- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Then LMT got a $500,000 anonymous 15 donor from someplace in Europe, is that true? 16 THE WITNESS: At that time, that is -- 17 THE COURT: I'm asking you now, is that true? 18 THE WITNESS: No, it's not. 19 THE COURT: Where did the money from? 20 THE WITNESS: From Mr. Minton. 21 THE COURT: So Mr. Minton forgot to tell us he 22 lied about that, too. 23 Proceed. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now -- 309 1 THE COURT: That is something difficult, that 2 is another one of these anonymous things that I 3 thought was about as weird as what I had heard 4 Mr. Dandar say. But apparently that is something 5 Mr. Minton likes to say. So it may not be so weird. 6 Apparently he likes to say it. He said it under 7 oath at least once, if not twice, and I don't 8 believe he recanted that. So you best be hurrying. 9 Proceed. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 THE COURT: I thought that was weird when I 12 read it for the second time. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, apparently you did not know about that 15 check at the time that -- let me back up a moment. 16 You said it's a relatively recent revelation that 17 the check Mr. Minton testified about not coming from him 18 actually was his money? 19 A No. I don't believe that is what I said. If I 20 did, that is not correct. 21 Q Well, when did he tell you that he had lied about 22 that money, the $500,000 check? 23 A That is -- I don't remember when he went into 24 deposition after it happened. I know that he told me about 25 the money that he had given Mr. Dandar very soon after he 310 1 gave it to him in May of 2000. 2 Q This is the $500,000? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And he told you it was his money? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Were you there -- 7 A He told Mr. Dandar it was -- 8 Q How do you know? 9 A Mmm -- 10 Q I'll ask it another way. Were you there when 11 Mr. Minton said, "Here is $500,000"? Were you there? 12 A I don't believe so. 13 Q You have no idea what Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar? 14 A Only what he told me. 15 Q Only after the fact. So my question is, what do 16 you know specifically Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar upon the 17 tender of the $500,000 check? 18 A Only what he told me he said. 19 Q Okay. Who told you that it was his money? 20 A Mr. Minton. 21 Q All right. Did the Church tell you it was his 22 money? 23 A Mmm, I don't believe so. What do you mean? When? 24 Q I'm -- 25 A Ever? 311 1 Q Did they know? 2 A Sorry? 3 Q Ever? Did the Church ever say, "We know this 4 $500,000 is Mr. Minton's"? 5 THE COURT: Are you talking about during these 6 confidential meetings that went on? 7 MR. LIROT: That would include that, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Why don't you include that because 9 that would be the most -- the time she might have 10 heard it. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay. During these meetings did you ever hear 13 from the Church, "Mr. Minton, we know this is your money, we 14 know you lied about it, you are in some hot water here"? 15 A No. 16 Q Never once? 17 A Never once. 18 Q Okay. 19 A Mr. Minton was the one who brought that up. 20 Q Did you lie about that check in your deposition? 21 A I don't believe it came up in my deposition. 22 Q Okay. So the only lies you told were about the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust agreement for the bulk of the money or 24 something like that? 25 A Well, I don't know if you see my recantation, but 312 1 it was also regarding some discovery. 2 Q The discovery regarding what? 3 A Well, if I can refer to my -- 4 THE COURT: You can. 5 THE WITNESS: Can I? 6 THE COURT: Sure. 7 A There were unedited videotapes that were asked for 8 which I knew existed and didn't provide. 9 There were also hard drives that were removed 10 before the special master's inspection. 11 THE COURT: Who did that? 12 THE WITNESS: Mmm, that was done at my 13 direction and Mr. Minton's. 14 THE COURT: Well, that is fine. But who did 15 it? 16 THE WITNESS: I believe Mark Bunker did it. 17 THE COURT: Who destroyed the evidence that was 18 left out in the hallway? 19 THE WITNESS: That wasn't destroyed, your 20 Honor. It was removed and taken somewhere else. 21 THE COURT: So it's available? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 23 THE COURT: Okay. Well, don't destroy it. 24 THE WITNESS: I won't, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. 313 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So -- 3 THE COURT: And that is an order. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir -- yes, ma'am. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q We are talking about your deposition again. Now, 7 do you recall being asked anything generally about donations 8 to the Lisa McPherson Trust? 9 A Yes. I was asked about those funds. And at that 10 time I did not know that they were from Mr. Minton. He said 11 they came from an anonymous source. 12 Q So, basically, you thought this money came from an 13 anonymous source. What kind of check did you get? 14 A Mmm -- 15 THE COURT: Which are we talking about now? 16 MR. LIROT: We are talking about the anonymous 17 donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust that Ms. Brooks 18 testified in her deposition, yes, we received this 19 huge anonymous donation. I guess the question 20 posed -- again, Judge, the deposition will speak for 21 itself, but as I recall the question, did Mr. Minton 22 give you this huge check for the Lisa McPherson 23 Trust. And I think the testimony generally was, no, 24 we got this anonymous donation. 25 THE COURT: Counsel, you better being talk to 314 1 your client because I don't think she recanted on 2 this, and I believe if she said this in her 3 deposition and it came from an anonymous source and 4 it came from Mr. Minton, it is false testimony. It 5 may not have been at the time. It may be what is 6 happening. But generally, I think that she's sort 7 of recanted everything up to today's date and 8 corrected the record. And, frankly, I think that I 9 corrected that record. 10 MR. FUGATE: And -- 11 THE COURT: Certainly it wasn't corrected by 12 the Church of Scientology, and it wasn't corrected 13 by anybody else. I believe I got this witness to 14 correct it. Not that it surprised me after I saw 15 about the other anonymous $500,000 and where it 16 purportedly came from. 17 Quite frankly, I don't know whether either of 18 the so-called anonymous $500,000 checks came from 19 Mr. Minton or they didn't. But if they did, and she 20 knew about it, and she testified it came from some 21 anonymous donor because they were trying to cover up 22 for tax purposes or whatever else, she better fix 23 it. 24 Continue on. 25 MR. FUGATE: Could we just identify what 315 1 deposition he's talking about? I think there were 2 several. 3 THE COURT: I -- 4 THE WITNESS: It was August 15, 2001, I 5 believe, when that came up. And, your Honor, that 6 is the reason why I didn't recant that, but I will. 7 THE COURT: You didn't know about it at the 8 time? 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't know about it when I 10 testified. 11 THE COURT: But you knew about it when you were 12 making all these corrections to your testimony? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I don't want you to leave this 15 proceeding without making all of the corrections to 16 the testimony that is wrong. And if, in fact, there 17 is something that we just haven't picked up, the 18 Church hasn't picked up or one side or another 19 hasn't picked up and it is wrong, just because it 20 might benefit or behoove Mr. Minton or you to leave 21 that record wrong, I don't want it left wrong. 22 THE WITNESS: I understand, your Honor. I 23 didn't have any intention of -- 24 THE COURT: All right. But I didn't see 25 anybody correct it. 316 1 THE WITNESS: Well, that hasn't been corrected, 2 and you are right about that. 3 THE COURT: And it wasn't corrected by 4 Mr. Minton, either, I don't believe. Is that true? 5 I don't know if you know what all he corrected -- 6 THE WITNESS: I think you may be correct -- 7 right about that. 8 THE COURT: I don't want to come up with any 9 more things, because as I said, I spent all my 10 nights reading about this excitement. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, that is the only thing I 12 know about that hasn't been covered. 13 THE COURT: I can probably find it, page and 14 line here, for all of you. 15 Continue on. 16 MR. LIROT: Very good. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q While we were talking about your depositions, are 19 there any other -- I think the judge already mentioned this, 20 are there any other things you said that you knew were 21 untrue when you were being asked questions during the 22 deposition? 23 A Actually, I didn't know that was untrue when I was 24 being asked the question in deposition. 25 Q I think -- 317 1 THE COURT: I brought it up at this time only 2 because it relates to this check, this $500,000 3 check. If you remember when we started this 4 hearing, I was somewhat suspect of the answer given 5 by Mr. Dandar; that being that he believed somebody 6 who just said, "Well, here is some $500,000 from an 7 anonymous source." I mean, nobody has given me a 8 nickel from some anonymous source. If somebody 9 gives me something, they want me to know they have 10 given it to me. So do I. I'm not too good at this 11 altruistic donation. 12 But the deal is is when I was reading the 13 depositions and I saw that Mr. Minton testified that 14 LMT had gotten this $500,000 check from this 15 anonymous source, from Europe, I think it was 16 Europe, maybe it was -- was Switzerland, I'm 17 thinking to myself, maybe he goes around telling all 18 these people this is what happened. He certainly 19 said it under oath, so I don't know why he wouldn't 20 say it to Mr. Dandar. 21 Maybe the guy is trying to cover for taxes. 22 You remember, I gave him an exemption, Fifth 23 Amendment, because I kind of figured that is what is 24 going on. 25 But we can't have it. I don't want any more 318 1 surprises. We have to get it all straightened out 2 here. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't know of any other 4 surprises, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Well, good. Okay. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Do you remember being asked if Mr. Minton had 8 given you any money? 9 A Mmm, I don't specifically, but I'm sure I was. 10 Q Do you remember being asked if Mr. Minton had 11 helped you buy a car or a house or -- or things along those 12 lines? 13 A Mmm, I don't specifically, but you can show it to 14 me. 15 Q Okay. I'll get back to that in a second. 16 So let me ask you again about your testimony. 17 In deposition you are testifying about an 18 anonymous donation to the Lisa McPherson Trust, and at that 19 point in time, your testimony is today it was absolutely 20 truthful, because I didn't know, I thought this was an 21 anonymous donation. 22 Do you remember anything about how you got that 23 money? 24 A Well, as I recall, the check, it came in a check 25 from Andreas. 319 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: Let's -- let's stop right now so I 3 can identify the places now. The $500,000 anonymous 4 check to LMT from Europe, and I have a note here 5 that according to Mr. Minton, Ms. Brooks said the 6 same thing on her deposition. I did not read her 7 deposition. 8 THE WITNESS: I think it was a wire transfer. 9 THE COURT: Well, it is, the same old thing 10 that happened that Mr. Dandar got, a wire transfer. 11 Right? Isn't that the same? 12 MR. FUGATE: No, he got a bank check. 13 THE COURT: Oh, he got a bank check. Okay. 14 Wire transfers. Bank check. Doesn't have a name on 15 it. Right? 16 MR. DANDAR: Correct. 17 THE COURT: Anonymous. Maybe. It certainly 18 didn't have Mr. Minton's name on it. Let's put it 19 that way. 20 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Page 141, Page 151 on the 22 deposition taken 9/18/01, and it is talked about 23 again in the last deposition, which I call the 24 so-called recant -- it wasn't recantation. We call 25 it the purge deposition. Here it is, Page 116 to 320 1 117, "Some unidentified source gave LMT $500,000 2 drawn on some bank. Bank draft from an anonymous 3 source, $500,000." 4 So twice, under oath, Mr. Minton talked about 5 this. And so all of a sudden, what Mr. Dandar said 6 Mr. Minton told him doesn't sound nearly so odd, 7 because he said he lied in the deposition under oath 8 in front of a whole bunch of lawyers. They didn't 9 apparently think it was so odd. Continue on. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Did -- do you remember testifying at some point 12 that Mr. Minton didn't contribute to the purchase of a house 13 or a car down here in Florida? 14 A Well, I don't remember what -- I remember those 15 two things coming up. And I believe I testified no, he 16 didn't buy me the car. I bought it with my own money. 17 And, no, he didn't buy me the house. I bought it 18 with my own money. And -- Ken -- 19 Q It is all right. Time out, he's just whispering 20 to me. 21 A It is really distracting. 22 Q If that distracted you, I apologize. 23 A You know, I suppose you can say that I -- you 24 know, all of the money I have been getting since 1998 is 25 from Mr. Minton. So when I said no, you know, I believe 321 1 that was the truth because I got the money out of my account 2 to pay for the car. Now, you know, Mr. Minton has been 3 paying me all along so, you know, perhaps I was -- you 4 know -- 5 THE COURT: I don't think we have to go there 6 unless, of course, he bought the house for her. But 7 as far as a car, you were working LMT -- 8 THE WITNESS: No, I wasn't working at the LMT 9 at that point. 10 THE COURT: You weren't? 11 THE WITNESS: But he was paying me already. I 12 mean, Mr. Minton -- 13 THE COURT: What has he been paying you for? 14 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton has been paying me 15 since 1998. I have been working for him since 1998. 16 I have also been having a relationship with him 17 since 1998. 18 THE COURT: So he was helping you to have your 19 own funds? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: So, okay, when I said he didn't 23 buy it for me, maybe that was -- maybe I shouldn't 24 have said this, since he was the source of all my 25 funds. But what I meant by it was, you know, it was 322 1 my money and I paid for it. And that is how I felt. 2 And that is what I believe. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Well, when was this house purchased? 6 A Mmm, November of 2001 -- or 2000. Sorry. 7 Q Okay. Have you ever filed -- 8 A Or actually 1999. 9 Q Okay. Obviously if there is some title or 10 something, that would have the date on it, a deed or -- 11 A Yes, I believe it was November 25, 1999. 12 Q Okay. 13 A When it closed. 14 THE COURT: I tell you what, my court reporter 15 is reporting realtime, and since we're getting into 16 a house or whatever it is all about, it would seem 17 like a good time to take a break. Fifteen minutes. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 20 ______________________________________ 21 THE COURT: You may be seated. 22 You may continue. 23 MR. LIROT: Thank you, your Honor. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, when we left off you were describing, 323 1 I guess, the purchase of your home here in the bay area. 2 And I think you said you bought it on November 25, 1999. Is 3 that correct? 4 A That is what I said. Yeah. 5 Q Okay. What was the downpayment for that house? 6 A Mmm, approximately 50,000. 7 Q And that money was given to you by Mr. Minton and 8 put in your account, so, therefore, it was your money? 9 A Yes. 10 Q When you testified in deposition if he bought you 11 a house, by him giving you the money, putting it in your 12 account and you use your check, that is not him buying it 13 for you. Right? 14 A Well, I had money in my account. I wrote a check 15 for it. 16 Q Okay. What was the purchase price for the house? 17 A Oh -- Mmm -- perhaps 250 or 260,000. 18 Q This was November 25, 1999? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Had you declared bankruptcy at some point during 21 the '90s? 22 A In 1995. In December. Yes. 23 Q And in, I guess, 1997, you have the cat clinic? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Thereabouts? 324 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was your income in 1997, if you recall, 3 general terms? 4 A Probably maybe $60,000 or $70,000. Not more than 5 that. 6 Q Okay. How much did you make off the cats? 7 A Not very much. 8 Q So you were making a ton of money writing all 9 these declarations and decrying, I guess, what you felt were 10 the characteristics of Scientology that you were troubled 11 by? 12 A In 1997, actually, I think we had some income from 13 a project that Vaughn was working on. 14 Q What kind of project -- 15 A Which wasn't legal work. 16 Q What kind of project? 17 A It was a book about Scientology. 18 Q And how much money came in from that? 19 A As I recall, it was perhaps 3,000 a month, 20 something like that. 21 Q Okay. Whatever happened to that project? 22 A It didn't end up being completed. 23 Q How is that? Why? 24 A Mmm, well, I believe that the premise that he was 25 working on didn't really turn out to be the case, which 325 1 turned out -- which he found out during the course of 2 research. 3 Q Now, you talked about, I guess, when you met 4 Mr. Minton. Did Mr. Minton respond to you relative to an 5 E-Mail plea that you had made, an Internet plea that your 6 work with Scientology was wiping you out financially? 7 A No. Vaughn posted a lengthy message talking about 8 what was happening to us, basically said that people would 9 understand why we were not going to do the work anymore. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And Mr. Minton responded to that Internet posting. 12 Q Okay. And in that Internet posting you set forth 13 the reasons that I guess you were going to abandon what in 14 your affidavit you refer to as anti-Scientology work? 15 A Mmm, no. Vaughn wrote this thing. I didn't write 16 it. But he was kind of careful not to say that, actually. 17 Q Okay. Did you indicate your financial status in 18 that Internet posting? 19 A I'm sure he did. 20 Q He did? 21 A I'm sure he did. I don't recall it in detail, but 22 I'm sure he did. 23 Q And would the gist of that be, "Hey, we're being 24 wiped out by the Scientologists financially"? 25 A Mmm, as I recall, he basically laid out a 326 1 chronology of the events that had happened. And -- and that 2 would have included that we had to find another place to 3 live and that we were in financial trouble. 4 Q Okay. When you met Mr. Minton, did you have a 5 job? 6 A Only the sanctuary. 7 Q Okay. And -- 8 THE COURT: That is the cat sanctuary? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Okay. And did Mr. Minton -- I guess Mr. Minton 12 was paying you before the formation of the Lisa McPherson 13 Trust?@AUDIO 14 A Yes, matter of fact, he, in 1997, actually gave 15 both of us some money. Then in 1998, he began to support 16 me. 17 Q What was your job? He supported you? Or he paid 18 you? 19 A Mmm, he was supporting me in 1998. And I was -- 20 you know, it was sort of both. He was supporting me and I 21 was also doing work with him. 22 Q Okay. What kind of work were you doing with him? 23 A Mmm, I was -- became pretty much his personal 24 assistant, I guess you would say. And I was doing things -- 25 I was taking care of various aspects of the -- of his 327 1 anti-Scientology work, you know. I arranged for Jesse 2 Prince to be -- to go out to Los Angeles to work with 3 Mr. Leipold. I maintained correspondence for him with 4 various people. 5 Q Now -- 6 A Things like that. 7 Q -- so as sort of a liaison with Mr. Minton in 8 other cases involving the Church of Scientology. Is that 9 correct? 10 A No, I wouldn't characterize it that way. But 11 Mr. Minton had an interest in the wrongful death case; the 12 Wollersheim case, which is a case in California; the FACTNet 13 case, which was a case I worked on. 14 (Spelling requested by the court reporter.) 15 THE WITNESS: F-A-C-T-N-E-T case. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Can you -- I guess describe -- 18 A And -- 19 Q Describe for me -- 20 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Were there other 21 cases that you didn't tell us about? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, I was going to say that he 23 had me set up Jesse Prince in Colorado working with 24 FACTNet, which was one of the cases that we were 25 doing. 328 1 THE COURT: But those were the cases Mr. Minton 2 had an interest in, the ones you told us about? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 And Mr. Minton and I went on the board of 5 FACTNet at that point. 6 THE COURT: So our record is clear here, go 7 ahead and tell us what that stands for, FACTNet. 8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, Fight Against Coercive 9 Tactics Network. FACTNet. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q What was FACTNet? 12 A It was -- well, it is, I think, still, it's sort 13 of an electronic library of information concerning 14 Scientology that was established by a man named Lawrence 15 Wollersheim. 16 Q Is it just -- does it just involve Scientology? 17 A Yes. 18 Q How did Mr. Minton get involved in that? 19 A Mmm, I think he met Mr. Wollersheim perhaps in 20 '96, I'm not sure. I think it's in his affidavit. 21 Q So Mr. Minton had already met Mr. Wollersheim 22 before he met you. Is that correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. Now, did Mr. Minton, after he found 25 you and your husband -- and I guess this is what I'll say -- 329 1 at a time when you were involved in the sanctuary and I 2 guess the zoning people are coming out, did Mr. Minton ever 3 come out and visit you and your husband? 4 A He did right before Thanksgiving in November of 5 1997. 6 Q Okay. So Mr. Minton visits you in November of 7 '97. And then you buy a house in November of '99. 8 In that two years, did he buy a house for you and 9 your husband? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Where was that house located? 12 A That was on Vashon Island in Washington state. 13 Q Is that near Seattle? 14 A In Puget Sound, about half an hour from Seattle by 15 ferry. 16 Q Was that a nice house? 17 A It was wonderful. It was a house where the 18 sanctuary for the cats could be. 19 Q Okay. Did that comply with the zoning 20 regulations? 21 A Yes, it did. 22 Q All right. Now, after that, how was it that you 23 became -- you have a new house in Puget Sound, and now you 24 are buying a house in Florida. 25 In the transition there, what services did you 330 1 provide for Mr. Minton? 2 A Well, starting in early 1998 we began to have a 3 personal relationship. And -- 4 THE COURT: When was that, ma'am, again? 5 THE WITNESS: In early 1998. 6 THE COURT: Thank you. 7 A And he also began to rely on me more and more for 8 helping him with his -- the anti-Scientology work he was 9 doing. And I was doing various things for him in that 10 capacity. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q All right. By a personal relationship, is that a 13 sexual relationship? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. Were you still married to Mr. Young at 16 the time? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Was Mr. Minton married at the time? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Did you tell Mr. Young about this relationship? 21 A Yes, I did. In June. 22 Q Okay. June of 1998? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. And at some point I guess you left the 25 house in Puget Sound, and where did you go after that? 331 1 A I left the house in Puget Sound in June of 1999 2 and moved to an apartment in Atlanta. 3 Q Did Mr. Minton pay for that apartment? 4 A As I testified earlier, Mr. Minton was supporting 5 me from 1998 on. 6 Q Okay. Did you have a job in Atlanta of any sort? 7 A I was working for Mr. Minton. 8 Q Okay. Doing the same thing that you have 9 described to the Court? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Now, when -- when did you -- I guess do you 12 still -- I guess you have a residence in Atlanta now? 13 A Yes, I do. 14 Q All right. Is this an apartment? Or is this a 15 house? 16 A It's a townhouse. 17 Q Okay. Who owns that townhouse? 18 A I do. 19 Q Is that in your name? 20 A It's in my name. 21 Q Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: I believe that was already 23 testified to. But -- 24 THE COURT: Sustained. Actually, I don't 25 know -- I know she said she owned one, so I assume 332 1 it was in her name. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Where did you get the money to buy that townhouse? 4 A From Mr. Minton. 5 Q Okay. And just getting back to the Florida money. 6 Did you have any money to put into a bank account in Florida 7 to buy the house that I guess you bought on November 25, 8 1999? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Okay. How much did you have? 11 A Well, as I said, the money was from Mr. Minton. I 12 don't remember how much I had in my account at that time. 13 But probably close to $100,000. 14 Q I guess my question is, now, you say now the money 15 was from Mr. Minton. But before you said it was your money. 16 I think you said that even today. 17 A Well, that is correct. 18 Q Okay. 19 A I think I explained this to the judge. You know, 20 he has been supporting me. But I consider that when the 21 money is in my account, it's my money. 22 THE COURT: You can understand, and I'm sure 23 you'll agree with, that you can look at that -- some 24 people might say you purchased it, some people might 25 say Mr. Minton purchased it. 333 1 THE WITNESS: I understand. 2 THE COURT: I don't know. I would be saying 3 you would be lying either way. Quite frankly, I 4 think you can take either viewpoint on it. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I try to be candid what I 6 meant. 7 THE COURT: You, likewise, obviously take the 8 viewpoint you take the position you bought it 9 yourself? 10 THE WITNESS: He gave it to me and considered 11 it was mine. 12 THE COURT: He kind of gave it to you and 13 considered you could use it as you wish? 14 THE WITNESS: He said it was mine. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Okay. Was there a mortgage on that house? 18 A In Florida? 19 Q In Florida. Correct? 20 A Yes. There was. 21 Q Did Mr. Minton pay off that mortgage? 22 A No. 23 Q Is there -- 24 A Well, I mean, I paid the mortgage every month. 25 But again, it was my money. It was my account. Beginning 334 1 in January of 2000, which was a month later after the house 2 closed, I was being paid by the LMT, which was being funded 3 by Mr. Minton. 4 Q Okay. Now, I guess you testified you put a 5 $50,000 downpayment? 6 A Approximately. 7 Q You are making the mortgage payments. Is there 8 still a mortgage on the house? Do you still own that house? 9 A No. I sold that house. 10 Q Was the mortgage paid off before the sale? 11 A No. The mortgage was paid off as part of the 12 closing. 13 Q Who paid off the mortgage? 14 A Well, I sold the house and with the -- you know 15 how it works when you close a house. The mortgage gets paid 16 off. Then whatever is left, you get. 17 Q Did Mr. Minton contribute to any payoff of that 18 mortgage? 19 A No. 20 Q All right. Now, as far as the income -- did you 21 file a tax return that year? 22 A Yes. I did. 23 Q All right. I know we don't have those tax 24 returns. But did you -- do you remember -- I guess your 25 only job is working for Mr. Minton. Did you declare all of 335 1 the money that you received from Mr. Minton that year on 2 your tax return, if you recall? 3 A I believe I did -- what year? For 2000? 4 Q I guess 1999 when you bought the house? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I believe so. 8 Q All right. How about in 1998? Did you declare 9 all of the money that Mr. Minton had given to you to report 10 on your tax returns? 11 A I believe I did. 12 Q Now, for the Lisa McPherson Trust, what were your 13 responsibilities for the trust? 14 A I was the president. I was in charge of it. 15 Q Okay. Well, what were you in charge of? 16 A Well, I was in charge of, you know, taking care of 17 the staff, paying the bills, paying the staff, making sure 18 that we were providing whatever Mr. Dandar needed for the 19 case. You know, keeping the records. 20 Q What kind of records were you keeping? 21 A Well, we were keeping legal records, you know, of 22 various cases. You know, we had a big website. One of the 23 big things about the LMT was our website. There was a lot 24 of -- there were a lot of documents that were scanned and 25 put on the website. Things like that. There were a lot of 336 1 people that contacted us, and we gradually became more and 2 more of a clearinghouse for people. 3 Q A clearinghouse for what kind of people? 4 A People who had left Scientology and wanted to get 5 their money back or wanted to file a complaint, or, you 6 know, whatever. These were people that were unhappy -- 7 Q Okay. 8 A -- with -- 9 Q Did you do a mission statement for the Lisa 10 McPherson Trust? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Did you author that mission statement? 13 A Well, it was actually sort of -- it was -- the 14 wording of it was worked out in the first board meeting of 15 the LMT. 16 Q But you participated? You were a writer for 17 Scientology. Right? 18 A Correct. 19 Q And you obviously have written numerous 20 declarations. You are pretty good with the English 21 language. Wouldn't you say? 22 A Thank you. 23 Q I guess that is a yes? 24 A I think it would be a matter of someone's opinion. 25 If you feel that way, I appreciate it. 337 1 Q Well, I do feel that way. 2 And you were the one posting things on the 3 website? 4 A I did post some of it. Yeah. 5 Q You are familiar with most of it, though. Aren't 6 you? 7 A Pretty much. 8 Q I mean, did you look at it, make sure nobody was 9 putting, you know, cartoons or something that wasn't really 10 part of the overall theme of the Lisa McPherson Trust? I 11 mean, were you looking at the website to make sure it was 12 meeting your standards? 13 A Lots of what went up on the website I wasn't 14 clearing before it went up. But, you know, I pretty much 15 knew what was going on it. 16 Q So you were relatively familiar with what was on 17 the website? 18 A Yes. 19 Q A lot of it was your work, wasn't it? 20 A Well, I think my declarations were posted on 21 there. I think a couple of essays I had written were on 22 there. And I was involved in interviewing a few people. 23 And those were on there. 24 So there was quite a bit of stuff from me on 25 there. 338 1 Q Now, with that, you are operating a website, you 2 are ministering to people who have come to the Lisa 3 McPherson Trust because of their personal discontent with 4 Scientology. 5 A Yes. 6 Q How many people came to you that expressed that 7 discontent? And you can correct me if I'm painting it in a 8 light that is not accurate. 9 A I will. I would say several hundred people, all 10 in all. 11 Q And basically is this kind of like the sanctuary 12 for cats? That is what you do. Right? I mean, you want to 13 help other living beings, right? 14 A That is probably a good way to put it. 15 Q And you weren't ill-intended in ministering to 16 these people? 17 A No. 18 Q Did you actually sit down and talk to some of 19 these people? 20 A Many of them. 21 Q And what general complaints did they have about 22 the Church of Scientology? 23 THE COURT: Counsel, are -- what do we care 24 about this, I mean, for this hearing? 25 MR. LIROT: I'll move along. I'll just 339 1 summarize it. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q The Lisa McPherson Trust did a heck of a lot of 4 stuff other than being involved in any aspect of the Lisa 5 McPherson case. Is that correct? 6 A Yes. That is correct. As a matter of fact, I 7 very intentionally began moving it into a different 8 direction, when it all started to get collapsed legally, to 9 try and move us away from, you know, the attention of the 10 Court. 11 Q You say collapsed legally, what was that? 12 A Well, as I was saying before, in depositions and 13 in pleadings, more and more Scientology was closing in on 14 the relationship between Mr. Dandar, Mr. Minton, myself, the 15 fact that most of the witnesses in the case were part of 16 LMT. And, you know, Mr. Dandar encouraged us to try to do 17 everything we could to -- Mmm -- separate the LMT's identity 18 from the case so that this discovery could stop. 19 Q Okay. Well, you say you put stuff on the website. 20 Did you have any kind of confidential data on the web site? 21 THE COURT: How do you do that? 22 MR. LIROT: I'm just asking. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Did you ever post anything on the website that you 25 knew to be confidential? 340 1 A Are you talking about Scientology confidential 2 materials? 3 Q No, Lisa McPherson Trust, Mr. Dandar's end of 4 the -- 5 A You mean legal confident -- confidential legally? 6 Q Yes. Yes. 7 A Not to my knowledge. 8 Q So anything related to the Lisa McPherson case 9 that went on your website was pretty much a matter of public 10 record. Is that correct? 11 A As far as I know. 12 Q Okay. And a lot of the people that worked there 13 were also involved as witnesses in some respect with the 14 Lisa McPherson case, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Jessie Prince, for one? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Jesse was your friend for a long time? 19 A Yes, he was. I'm sorry, he's no longer. 20 Q And Jesse did some work for the Lisa McPherson 21 Trust, didn't he? 22 A Well, first he was working as Mr. Dandar's 23 consultant solely. And then I think in March of 2000 24 Mr. Minton had him move over to the LMT. 25 Q Okay. And he got paid for work that he did at the 341 1 LMT. Isn't that correct? 2 A That is correct. And he also got paid even when 3 he was working for Mr. Dandar. 4 Q So just like you, Mr. Minton helped support him 5 while he was, I guess, worthy in Mr. Minton's eyes of 6 receiving some support. Wouldn't you say that is fair to 7 say? 8 A In fact, Mr. Minton has been Mr. Prince's sole 9 source of support since January of 1998. 10 Q You would not be critical of that? 11 A Absolutely not. 12 Q You are getting some of the cake from Mr. Minton. 13 Are you not? 14 A I would appreciate it if you wouldn't insult me. 15 Q I'm not insulting, and I will rephrase it if you 16 feel insulted. 17 A I would prefer you to. 18 Q You -- do you think it is fair to be critical of 19 anyone else that benefit from Mr. Minton's efforts if 20 Mr. Minton deems it appropriate to in some way help them 21 out? 22 A I don't believe I was critical. I just said 23 Mr. Minton was Mr. Prince's soul source of support since 24 July of 1998. 25 Q Mr. Prince did a lot for the Lisa McPherson Trust, 342 1 isn't that correct? 2 A Yes, he did. 3 Q He worked pretty hard? 4 A He did. 5 Q And he joined you in ministering to a lot of 6 people that came by, for whatever reason, that had bad 7 experiences with Scientology. Isn't that correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q All right. What about the other people that 10 worked for the Lisa McPherson Trust that were, I guess -- 11 your affidavit -- and I'll be candid with you, your 12 affidavit makes it look like if you want to be a witness in 13 this case, go to the Lisa McPherson Trust and we'll give you 14 a handout, if you want to help us with this case. That is 15 not the way it was, was it? 16 A Well, that is pretty much the way it was, 17 Mr. Lirot. 18 Q Explain that to me. 19 A Well, I think I explained it pretty clearly in my 20 affidavit. But Mr. Minton wanted to include all of the 21 people that he had -- or I guess not all of them -- but many 22 of the people he was helping in litigation against 23 Scientology to be part of the LMT, and so that is what we 24 did. 25 THE COURT: I take it LMT was a for-profit 343 1 corporation so this was a way for him to get a 2 deduction or LMT to have a deduction on the tax 3 return or something. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, not really, your Honor. 5 The reason it was created as a for-profit 6 corporation was because we were expecting that a lot 7 of other people would be donating money to the LMT. 8 And we were advised that a for-profit corporation 9 isn't required to report the names of the people who 10 have made donations. 11 In other words, a for-profit corporation isn't 12 required to make the people who are making 13 contributions -- it's not required to be public. 14 THE COURT: Well, let me put it a little 15 different way for you. 16 If Mr. Minton is in charge, or if you are, and 17 you and he are involved, therefore, you both stand 18 to profit if the government doesn't take your money. 19 The less money the government takes, the more stays 20 in your pockets. We all understand that. 21 If Mr. Minton is giving Jesse Prince $5,000 a 22 month as a donation or what have you, he gets no tax 23 benefit from that. If Mr. Prince is being paid out 24 of LMT and he's an employee of LMT, that comes off 25 as a deduction off that corporate return. It's a 344 1 salary. Right? Or do you know that? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. I mean, you get -- 3 THE COURT: That $60,000 a year deduction that 4 you don't get if Mr. Minton gives Jesse Prince 5 $5,000 a month and he's not an employee? 6 In other words, there is a benefit -- 7 THE WITNESS: Right, true. 8 THE COURT: -- to having these people he was 9 supporting, just as he supported you, to be part of 10 LMT. He was getting a tax benefit, not improperly, 11 by having them paid for and working for LMT? 12 THE WITNESS: Correct. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What other witnesses in the Lisa McPherson case 16 worked at the LMT besides Jessie Prince, of course? 17 A Teresa Summers was named as a witness. I was at 18 the LMT. 19 Q Okay. Were you ever named as a witness in this 20 case? 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: That brings something to mind. I'm 23 sorry, I hate to interject, Counsel, in the middle 24 of your questioning, but sometimes things come to my 25 mind. If I don't bring them out, I'll forget. 345 1 I'm not sure what you had said during your 2 direct examination, but in my reading of stuff this 3 weekend it became pretty clear to me that you for a 4 time were a consultant -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- to Mr. Dandar or to the estate 7 or to the case. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And, so, much of the information 10 that Mr. Dandar was getting regarding the inner 11 workings of the Church, as a non-member, I suppose 12 he wouldn't know, but were coming from you, which is 13 what you were hired to do? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. I mean, in 1997, he was 15 paying us, my husband and me, to do the consulting. 16 THE COURT: But I mean, so that I understand 17 this, because -- when Mr. Dandar took on this case, 18 he really didn't have a great deal of inside 19 information about Scientology, how it worked. I 20 mean, I understand they have some of their own 21 language. He had to rely on somebody who had been 22 there to explain documents and what have you as far 23 as what they meant. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. And he was 25 getting information from a number of former 346 1 Scientologists. 2 THE COURT: Right, not saying there is anything 3 nefarious about this. He's getting information from 4 you and you were being paid for it. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, yes. In 1997 I was paid by 6 Mr. Dandar. Then after that I was paid by 7 Mr. Minton to -- 8 THE COURT: So some of the information, I take 9 it, Mr. Dandar got from -- for his complaints came 10 from you? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: And we did go through that. 13 THE WITNESS: We did. 14 THE COURT: I just wasn't sure whether we were 15 on the same page, that you were a legitimate 16 consultant/expert depending on -- well, sometimes 17 you were on the list and sometimes you were removed 18 from the list, as many of the witnesses were, but 19 you were a legitimate consultant/expert in the field 20 of Scientology that Mr. Dandar used and paid, or 21 Mr. Minton paid? 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 THE COURT: Okay. And I think you told us the 24 other day that you gave him -- you tried to give him 25 as accurate information as you could about all of 347 1 the things he wanted to know, such as what might 2 have happened in the case, how to best effect a 3 settlement, all of the things that he would ask you, 4 you would try to give him accurate information? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I would say I 6 did, with a fairly negative slant. 7 THE COURT: Okay. And that is because you were 8 not very happy with the Church at that time. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. And because my thought was 10 to help him go after Scientology, not to help 11 Scientology. 12 THE COURT: Yes. Okay. I mean, he had -- he 13 had listed the Church at all times as a defendant? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: So the Church was listed as a 16 defendant, so naturally his job from the very 17 beginning was to make sure that -- 18 THE WITNESS: To be an adversary. 19 THE COURT: -- to show to the jury that the 20 Church was responsible for the death of Lisa 21 McPherson? 22 THE WITNESS: Right. 23 THE COURT: So whatever slant it was, that was 24 the slant the lawsuit was taking. Whether he could 25 prove it or not was a different matter. But that is 348 1 where this case was headed? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: And you were assisting him, as I 4 guess any trial consultant would. I guess what I'm 5 trying to say, you weren't feeding him false 6 information, you were slanting it maybe, but you 7 weren't feeding him a bunch of false stuff. Were 8 you? 9 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I would say 10 that some of the conclusions that were drawn in my 11 speculation were, Mmm, not based on fact. 12 THE COURT: Okay. And that could be 13 speculative. We went through that the other day. 14 But, once again, I don't think that -- I don't 15 think we're on a different page. I'm just trying to 16 make sure I'm right. Whatever it was you were 17 telling him, whether it was slanted or not, based on 18 fact, I think you said the other day they were 19 things you said you assumed could have been. 20 So when you file a complaint, sometimes you 21 file it and you see if you can prove it. Sometimes 22 people can't and they get knocked out on summary 23 judgment. 24 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh. 25 THE COURT: But they file a complaint with the 349 1 idea this is what I think I can prove and sometimes 2 they have to go out and see if they can. Sometimes 3 they can. Sometimes they can't. And you were 4 assisting him in that, trying to -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- lay out a complaint in the 7 fashion that it would perhaps, I suppose, bring the 8 best settlement and/or judgment that he could get 9 for his client. 10 THE WITNESS: Correct. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, I was asking you about the witnesses I 14 guess related to the Lisa McPherson case. You said -- do 15 you know for a fact you were ever identified as a witness or 16 were you ever anything other than a consultant? Do you know 17 for sure? 18 A I don't really. 19 Q Okay. And Teresa Summers. Who is Teresa Summers? 20 A She's a former Scientologist who Mr. Dandar had 21 put on the witness list that I later hired. And she did 22 very, very good work at the LMT. 23 Q All right. What kind of work did she do? 24 A She -- Mmm -- was one of the primary people who 25 dealt with people who would call in. 350 1 Q All right. So that -- that doesn't have anything 2 to do with the Lisa McPherson case, does it? 3 A No, that work didn't at all. 4 Q Did she do other things? Was she like an 5 administrative assistant? 6 A No. Her job was pretty primarily to deal with 7 those people. 8 Q All right. Was that in counseling sessions? Over 9 the phone? Or -- 10 A No, no, it was -- as I said before, it was in the 11 sense of a clearinghouse, directing people to the right 12 place for whatever they needed. 13 Q Well, can you explain that to me? I don't 14 understand that concept. What do people need? I guess 15 generally people call up and they say, "I see that you have 16 a website here," or "a trust, and I have seen your mission 17 statement." 18 You are trying to assist people who for whatever 19 reasons have some problems in their past with Scientology. 20 They call up. What do you do with them? 21 A Well, at least half of the people that contacted 22 us wanted money from Scientology. And one of the things 23 that Teresa did and Jesse did were to, you know, help them 24 write letters to whatever Scientology entity they wanted 25 money from. 351 1 THE COURT: When you say wanted money, you mean 2 wanted some of their money back? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Money they paid? Not file a 5 lawsuit like this? 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 THE COURT: But saying -- 8 THE WITNESS: Saying, "I gave them this money, 9 I want it back. How do I get it back?" 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 A And another thing that we were developing was a 12 whole range of complaints to be filed against Scientology at 13 various agencies, like Consumer Protection, with the IRS. 14 We wanted to get the Scientology tax exemption 15 revoked. And so we were trying to, you know, get people to 16 send information to the IRS, the Better Business Bureau. 17 One of the things that Teresa did was to do a lot 18 of research into what different agencies we could get people 19 to file complaints with. 20 Q Okay. And so it certainly sounds to me like there 21 is a lot going on at the Lisa McPherson Trust that doesn't 22 in any way involve the wrongful death suit of Lisa 23 McPherson. 24 A Well, in fact, I was very, very deliberately -- as 25 I said before -- trying to create an identity for the LMT 352 1 which would be separate from the wrongful death case so that 2 we could try to separate ourselves from the discovery. 3 Particularly as the discovery became more and more 4 oppressive, I guess of Mr. Minton and myself. 5 And we began to -- or I began to, you know, advise 6 Mr. Minton to stop funding the case, and it finally 7 culminated in August of 2001 with my ordering Jesse to 8 withdraw as an expert, with Mr. Minton telling Mr. Dandar 9 that he would no longer fund it, and, you know -- 10 Q Okay. I appreciate that. You are moving ahead on 11 me a little bit here. 12 Jesse Prince worked there, as well, and he 13 ministered these people -- 14 THE COURT: Let me stop you a second. 15 Mr. Howie, I think it is safe to say we'll not get 16 to your client today, so if you would like to tell 17 him he may be excused, if you think I have to excuse 18 him, you may. If he wants to stay out there, he's 19 welcome to, but he certainly can leave and so can 20 you if you want to. 21 MR. HOWIE: Thank you, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: We'll not get to him. 23 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. I may remain, but I'll 24 tell him. 25 THE COURT: What was the date of that again, 353 1 ma'am, when you told Jesse to withdraw? 2 THE WITNESS: That was -- well, it would have 3 been at the very end of August or the beginning of 4 September 2001. 5 THE COURT: Okay. And I'm sorry, you said she 6 jumped ahead, so now I'll let you go back. 7 MR. LIROT: No problem, Judge. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Jesse worked there a lot. Explain this to me. 10 Your big effort then is you don't want to make it look like 11 this Lisa McPherson Trust is a big component of the Lisa 12 McPherson case. Right? 13 A Correct. 14 Q Okay. You want to -- 15 A I want -- 16 Q You have all these discovery demands, the Church 17 is hitting you with subpoenas and requests to produce and 18 all kind of stuff. Is that correct? 19 A Correct. 20 Q All right. Then it's coming at a pretty furious 21 pace. Correct? 22 A Yes, it was. 23 Q How would you get these people to call up and be 24 ministered as a way to try to distance yourself from the 25 Lisa McPherson case? 354 1 A I wasn't getting them to call us. They were 2 finding out about us from the Internet or from word of 3 mouth. And they were calling. And, you know, I -- I was 4 actually a bit at odds with Mr. Minton about this, but I put 5 as much attention on that as I could and put as much 6 staff -- of the staff's attention on it as I could. 7 Q Okay. 8 A And we began to have some difference of view about 9 what the LMT should be doing, because I felt that the way we 10 should be going was for him to stop funding the case and for 11 the LMT to take on a legitimate identity. And Mr. Minton 12 wanted the LMT to continue to be primarily, you know, an 13 adjunct of the case. And so I -- you know, we became 14 divergent about what we wanted to have happen to the LMT. 15 Q But the LMT wasn't an adjunct to the case. Was 16 it? 17 A It was. 18 Q Well, how do you -- 19 A But I began to try to move it away from that. 20 Q Well, you are on the Internet. You have hundreds 21 of people, I think was your testimony, saying, "I'm not 22 happy about this --" 23 THE COURT: Counsel, why don't you just make 24 that argument to me. You are not going to change 25 this witness's testimony. Why don't you move on to 355 1 something else. 2 MR. LIROT: I'll wrap it up, Judge. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Scientology versus Fishman, or whatever that case 5 was, that had nothing to do with the Lisa McPherson Trust, 6 was it? 7 A No. That was in 1993. 8 Q Still going on today, though, isn't it? 9 A No. It was dropped in 1994. 10 Q Okay. You did some declarations in that case. 11 Right? 12 A Yes. In 1993/1994. 13 Q All right. And Scientology settled that case? 14 A They dropped their complaint. 15 Q All right. What about the Wollersheim case? I 16 guess that is what I was thinking about. You are doing a 17 lot about the Wollersheim case at the Lisa McPherson Trust. 18 Right? 19 A (No response.) 20 Q Did you do anything related to the Wollersheim 21 case with people posting E-Mails to you or were you posting 22 messages on the website about the Wollersheim case on the 23 Lisa McPherson Trust website? 24 A Not that I recall. 25 Q What about any of the other cases? I guess I'll 356 1 ask it this way. Was the Lisa McPherson Trust website 2 solely dedicated to the Lisa McPherson case? 3 A No. 4 Q All right. There was a whole lot of other stuff. 5 Wasn't there? 6 A Yes. At my direction. 7 Q Weren't people sending stuff in out of the blue? 8 Did you direct everybody that sent in stuff about other 9 cases? Was that at your direction? 10 A People weren't actually sending things in. We 11 were gathering or requesting it. 12 Q Okay. 13 A But, again -- again, I wanted the website to be 14 extremely diverse. I didn't want it to appear to be just 15 something that was related to the Lisa McPherson case. You 16 know, Scientology was accusing us of being nothing but an 17 adjunct of the Lisa McPherson case, and I was trying 18 everything I could to -- to shift our emphasis away from it 19 so that they would no longer have any justification for 20 coming after us in discovery. 21 Q And you thought by doing that, that they would 22 stop their discovery demands? 23 A Well, I hoped that by doing that we could convince 24 the Court that their discovery demands were -- were, you 25 know, not legitimate, or whatever. 357 1 Q Okay. Now, there were a lot of people that worked 2 there other than Teresa Summers and Jesse Prince, correct? 3 A Eight people at the height of it. 4 Q All right. They were witnesses in the Lisa 5 McPherson case? 6 A Mmm, let's see. Not Ingrid. Not Mark. I 7 think -- I think the three people who were actual witnesses 8 were, as I said -- or consultants, maybe I wasn't a witness. 9 Q But you are -- you are a consultant. You have 10 been a consultant on a lot of cases involving Scientology, 11 so you already have kind of a track record. Right? 12 A Correct. 13 Q And you are here at the Lisa McPherson Trust 14 operating as the president and dispatching your other 15 responsibilities. Then you have Jesse Prince, and he's 16 ministering other people and doing other things than being 17 involved in the Lisa McPherson case, and then Teresa Summers 18 is also doing the same thing. What is their -- hard to sell 19 about them not being dedicated or working on the Lisa 20 McPherson Trust because it is directly related to this case? 21 Couldn't you just tell that truth? Wouldn't that have been 22 accurate? Wouldn't that have been a good enough 23 explanation? 24 A That is what we were trying to do. 25 Q Well, why is it so hard? It was the truth. 358 1 A Mmm, you have to ask the Court that. 2 Q I'm asking you. 3 THE COURT: Well, no, Counsel, really, don't go 4 there. Because what she's saying, they were trying 5 to convince the Court -- the Court -- the Court was 6 allowing the discovery to be too liberal, so she was 7 trying to draw it away so hopefully the Court would 8 say stop taking all this discovery. And she can't 9 answer that because she couldn't get the Court to 10 stop. She doesn't know why. She would have liked 11 it to have stopped before it ever got started. 12 MR. LIROT: Understood. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q How would -- 15 THE COURT: Apparently it got started because 16 Mr. Dandar, according to her, says that Judge 17 Quesada and I were being blackmailed and that is why 18 we were letting the Church go there. 19 MR. LIROT: That is her testimony, Judge. 20 THE COURT: That is her testimony. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q All right. Now, what right did you have to tell 23 Jesse Prince to withdraw any affidavit? 24 A Well, Mr. Minton and I felt that we had the right 25 to do that because Mr. Prince was being paid by Mr. Minton. 359 1 At that point he had been paying him for a couple of years. 2 Mr. Minton was funding and -- you know, I realize this is a 3 contentious point for you, but funding and controlling the 4 case and funding and controlling the LMT. And Mr. Minton 5 had the right to tell Mr. Prince whether he wanted him 6 working on the case or working at the LMT. 7 Q Well, talking about Mr. Minton funding and 8 controlling the case, let me ask you a couple of questions 9 about that. 10 You weren't even there when the original complaint 11 was filed. Were you? You had not been hired as a 12 consultant by Mr. Dandar prior to that time? 13 A Mmm, what was the date of the original complaint? 14 Q I think it was December 5, 1997, if I'm not 15 mistaken? 16 A Yes. I had been hired by him. We were hired by 17 him in May of '97. 18 Q All right. How much input did you have into the 19 original complaint? 20 A Mmm, quite a bit. I mean, he hired us in May. 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you were hired in May 22 of -- 23 THE WITNESS: Of '97, with my husband at that 24 time. 25 360 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So if the complaint was filed before that, you 3 wouldn't have had any input into that complaint. Right? 4 A Well, I thought you said the complaint was filed 5 in December of '97. 6 Q I'm just -- I don't know. I wasn't here. 7 A Well, I -- I'm pretty sure first complaint was 8 filed in December of '97. Or if it wasn't the first 9 complaint, maybe it was the first amended complaint. 10 Q Okay. 11 A I'm not sure. But I know Mr. Dandar hired us to 12 help him with the Scientology part of it. 13 Q Okay. And I think the judge already explored 14 that. So -- I think that is pretty well understood. 15 Now, I guess my question would be that around that 16 point in time, you formed the Lisa McPherson Trust. You 17 have got a mission statement. The mission statement just 18 doesn't say this is an adjunct of the Lisa McPherson case. 19 Does it? 20 A (Shakes head.) 21 A Then you have a couple witnesses, but you have 22 other employees that have certainly no witness 23 responsibilities who are not working on the case. Is that 24 correct? 25 A Yes. 361 1 Q Did you have them throughout? Did that grow as 2 the Lisa McPherson Trust, I guess, grew, with whatever 3 responsibilities it was undertaking? 4 A How do you mean, did what grow? 5 Q Well, I mean, you are president. The Lisa 6 McPherson Trust is formed when? 7 A It was -- well, the doors opened for business on 8 January 6, 2000. 9 Q Okay. And it's formed as a for-profit 10 corporation, I think your testimony was, so we don't have to 11 show anybody our books or anything like that. 12 A We don't have to show who donated money. 13 Q Why is that important? 14 A Because we wanted to be able to tell people that 15 if they gave money to the LMT, it wouldn't be revealed to 16 Scientology. 17 Q Why is that important? 18 A Because we were afraid that Scientology would 19 harass these people and -- you know, as I said, we were of a 20 mind that, you know, we really -- you know, we really felt 21 like that would happen. 22 Q Why? 23 A Well, partly based on our experience, because, you 24 know, I had experienced harassment. Mr. Minton was being 25 harassed. The discovery -- you know, all of these legal 362 1 actions were extremely harassive, we felt. You know, we had 2 been followed by private investigators hired by Scientology. 3 I mean, you know, I put together a big time line of -- of 4 harassment. 5 So, you know, we all felt like that was a real 6 possibility for the people that had contributed money. 7 You know, Mr. Dandar was very concerned about 8 possible harassment of people. So this definitely was part 9 of our thinking. 10 Q And -- 11 THE COURT: Just so the record can be correct 12 here, I may not be reading this stamp correctly, but 13 if I am, the complaint -- first complaint was filed 14 February 19 of 1997. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay then -- 16 MR. FUGATE: That is correct, your Honor. 17 MR. WEINBERG: And the amended -- 18 THE COURT: First amended complaint, I got the 19 date on that, the first amended complaint was filed 20 12/4/97. 21 THE WITNESS: Then that is what I'm talking 22 about, first amended complaint. 23 MR. LIROT: I apologize, Judge -- 24 THE COURT: Believe me, I have to write it all 25 down. A lot of dates to try to remember. 363 1 MR. LIROT: All right. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q So in the affidavit that you filed, I guess it is 4 Exhibit 72 of the omnibus motion, the one you did on 5 April 30, just recently, the last one -- 6 A Uh-huh? 7 Q -- the last one you did, you said that all of the 8 things I said, I think something to the effect the 9 anti-Scientology, I withdraw all my previous declarations? 10 A Where does it say that? 11 Q Well, you withdrew your prior declarations in this 12 affidavit. Is that correct? 13 A Not that I know of. 14 Q All right. Did you try to get other affidavits 15 withdrawn from other actions? 16 A Mmm, well, specifically, I asked Mr. Leipold to 17 withdraw an affidavit that he was about to file in the 18 Wollersheim case and he refused. 19 Q Why would you ask him to withdraw that? What does 20 that have to do with Lisa McPherson? 21 A It doesn't have to do with Lisa McPherson. 22 Q Why would -- 23 A That had to do with the fact that we were in the 24 process of settlement -- well, I was hoping we would be able 25 to get into settlement with Scientology once we corrected 364 1 the record in this case. 2 Q That doesn't have anything to do with perjury or 3 worried about some check or some agreement. Does it? 4 A No. It doesn't have anything to do with this 5 case. 6 Q Were you just being a real good sport? 7 THE COURT: Counselor, she already said she 8 knew when Mr. Howie went to the Church to try to 9 make a settlement, they would settle this thing 10 globally, and sure enough, Mr. Howie came back and 11 said, yes, that is exactly right, you smart thing, 12 you knew what you were talking about. So I presume 13 we're into these other things now. 14 MR. LIROT: All right. 15 THE COURT: Is that right, ma'am? 16 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor, 17 thank you. 18 THE COURT: That is one of the other things 19 that was going on. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Was the affidavit in that case truthful? Had you 22 been truthful in the statements made therein? 23 A I engaged in quite a bit of speculation. And I 24 talked to Mr. Leipold a number of times. And told him that 25 I would not be willing to testify to support that affidavit. 365 1 And that I was in the process of drying to initiate 2 settlement negotiations with Scientology. And that I 3 would -- and that I requested that he not use my affidavit. 4 Q All right. 5 A That is what happened. 6 Q And you'd filed numerous affidavits which 7 generally stated -- articulated your knowledge of the inner 8 workings of the Scientology and a number of tactics that I 9 guess you had seen and had caused you some concern. Is that 10 correct? 11 A Correct. 12 Q So that is basically one of the things that 13 motivated you not to want the books and records of the Lisa 14 McPherson Trust made available to the Church, because you 15 felt that if they saw the names of the people that 16 contributed, that Scientology might not be real nice to 17 them. 18 A Correct. 19 Q Okay? And I think your words were they may get 20 harassed? 21 A Correct. 22 Q And you had personal experience that that very 23 thing does happen? 24 A Yes, I do. 25 Q It happened to you? 366 1 A That is right. 2 Q Happened to a bunch of people? 3 A Okay. 4 Q Yes? Are you the only one? 5 A Are you asking me that? 6 Q Yes. 7 A As far as I know, yes. 8 Q You are the only one? 9 A No. No. No. 10 THE COURT: She said yes. 11 A As far as I know, other people have. Yes. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q All right. Now, you'd mentioned that you had done 14 a time line. And I think on the Lisa McPherson Trust there 15 is sort of a list of what you can get off the website. Is 16 that correct? 17 A Well, the time line is a part of the website, 18 actually. You can go to the website and see it. 19 Q And I guess if you pull it up -- what is the 20 website? 21 A You mean what is its address? 22 Q LMT International? Out of the blue and somebody 23 said, "There is a great website"? 24 A www.lisatrust.net. 25 Q Okay. And -- 367 1 THE COURT: It is still up and running? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q If I wanted to find out, I guess, to the best of 5 your recollection, is there an offer in there on the menu of 6 the Bob Minton -- excuse me, Bob Minton harassment time 7 line? 8 A As I just said, the harassment time line is part 9 of the website. 10 Q Does it say Scientology has a long history of 11 attacking people who speak out about the organization's 12 deception and abuse. Did you write that? 13 A I wrote the whole thing. 14 Q What kind of deception and abuse were you talking 15 about? 16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me. I just 17 object to relevance -- 18 THE COURT: Well, I think it is relevant and 19 I'll tell you why. I don't know when we'll get to 20 it, but I think it is relevant because it is kind of 21 amazing, I suppose, this woman has all this belief 22 and all of a sudden she's sort of reversed courses 23 here. And I expect we need to know why that was and 24 what happened. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor? 368 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 THE WITNESS: I would like to clarify what you 3 just said. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 THE WITNESS: I haven't said I reversed 6 anything except for my desire to be a part of 7 litigation and my desire to be involved in 8 litigation against Scientology that requires that 9 I -- or causes me to feel that I'm in a position in 10 which I have to do things that are going to get me 11 in trouble with the Court. 12 THE COURT: Well, and I think in fairness, too, 13 you and Mr. Minton would like to just get out of 14 this stuff and go about and live a happy life 15 together and not be involved with Scientology and 16 their depositions and all this sort of stuff if you 17 could. 18 THE WITNESS: Oh, I would like it more than 19 anything. 20 THE COURT: So whether it is true or whether it 21 isn't true, you just don't want to be in the 22 business anymore. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't want to be in the 24 business anymore at all. But I think Mr. Lirot is 25 trying to get on the record that I feel that people 369 1 have been harassed or whatever -- you know, I'm not 2 denying that. 3 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, I have a copy here of 4 the time line. I'll present that to opposing 5 counsel -- 6 THE COURT: So to that extent, Mr. Fugate, I 7 think there is relevance here that I'll let him 8 explore. And this is a motion to dismiss the whole 9 complaint, so I think we have to let that in. 10 MR. FUGATE: All right, Judge. 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may approach the 12 witness? 13 THE COURT: You may. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q I want to hand you a document which was, I guess 16 the word is, downloaded from the Lisa McPherson website. 17 A Uh-huh. 18 Q Does that look to you to be what is titled "A Time 19 Line of Scientology's Harassment of Robert S. Minton and 20 Colleagues"? 21 A Yes. 22 MR. FUGATE: Is he asking her if that is 23 accurate, or if that is what it looks to be 24 entitled? Because it is 52 pages long. 25 THE COURT: He wanted to know if that was the 370 1 time line. He was getting her to identify it. I 2 don't think he asked yet whether it was accurate. 3 She said she wrote it. 4 What did you ask her to do? 5 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll get there. 6 THE COURT: Do you want to introduce it? 7 MR. LIROT: I want to introduce it, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Is that what you wrote, ma'am, and 9 published on the Internet. 10 MR. FUGATE: I do believe so, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Is it accurate? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, it looks accurate to me on 13 a glance. 14 THE COURT: Sounds good enough to me. 15 Introduce it. 16 MR. LIROT: All right. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, was the question is 18 it authentic? Is that what you are asking? 19 THE COURT: Yes. I think that is what he was 20 asking. Is that document -- is that the thing that 21 she wrote? 22 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 23 THE COURT: That was posted on this Lisa 24 McPherson Internet. 25 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 371 1 THE WITNESS: There are some notes made on it 2 that aren't mine. 3 MR. LIROT: Okay. Well, to the extent those 4 are work product, we would like to preserve that 5 right. I don't know what notes would be on it. I 6 apologize if I haven't given you a clean copy. I'll 7 make sure whatever copy goes to the Court is clean. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. LIROT: I'll take a look at that when I 10 make sure there is nothing that would be deemed as 11 any kind of waiver included in that document. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Would it be possible at a break 13 that Ms. Brooks could flip through the 52 pages and 14 make sure that she thinks it is an authentic copy? 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, just generally, what does this time 19 line describe? 20 A Well, this time line -- I put this thing together 21 and had intended for it to be used as the basis of a 22 pleading, or a -- a motion that I was intending Mr. Howie, 23 and probably my own attorney, Mr. McGowan, would file in 24 this case to try to educate the Court in a different 25 direction and let us out of this discovery. That was the 372 1 purpose for it, was to try to show the Court that the real 2 reason why we were being hit with all this discovery was 3 just purely to harass us. And I was trying to put it in the 4 context that the Court would, hopefully, believe me, and let 5 us go. 6 By this time both of us were feeling, Mmm, pretty 7 much like we were being held hostage by Mr. Dandar to this 8 case. In fact, I guess I would have to say I was feeling 9 much more that way, that Mr. Minton was being held hostage. 10 Q Okay. So, basically, you put this all together 11 because you felt Mr. Dandar had you hostage to this? That 12 is your testimony? 13 A That is not actually what I just said. What I 14 said was I put it together so that it could form a basis of 15 a motion that I was hoping Mr. Howie and Mr. McGowan would 16 be able to file with the Court that would convince the Court 17 that our discovery should be -- Mmm -- that the 18 Scientology's attempts to get discovery into us would be 19 stopped. 20 Q Was this -- 21 A Because -- 22 Q Was it prepared to sue Scientology for this what 23 appears to be a pretty lengthy pattern -- 24 A No. 25 Q -- of -- not at all? 373 1 A No. Not at all. 2 Q So it was just so you could get out of this case? 3 A Absolutely. 4 Q And when did you start working on this? 5 THE COURT: Not get out of the case. Get out 6 of the discovery. 7 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 8 THE COURT: Because at that point you all 9 weren't in this case. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, we aren't still in this 11 case. 12 THE COURT: Right, but I think there has been a 13 motion now to add Mr. Minton as a party, and I think 14 I have allowed that. 15 THE WITNESS: In the counterclaim. 16 THE COURT: Well, I mean, that is the 17 counterclaim to this case. 18 THE WITNESS: Okay, well -- 19 MR. WEINBERG: It just hadn't been finalized 20 yet. 21 THE COURT: Right. 22 THE WITNESS: But -- 23 THE COURT: But I am right, I did grant you all 24 leave to amend to add Mr. Minton as a party to the 25 counterclaim. 374 1 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 2 THE COURT: But at the time that you were 3 writing this on the Internet and the time these 4 negotiations were going on, apparently, trying to 5 settle this, Mr. Minton had not been made a party to 6 the counterclaim, but the counterclaim existed. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. This -- I was writing 8 this -- I started writing this probably -- Mmm -- 9 when did I start this? I started this -- Mmm, 10 sometime in probably 2000. 11 THE COURT: Okay, I'm going to take a little 12 break. We'll either get this in or we'll not. She 13 can't really sit up on the stand and start thumbing 14 through pages. I couldn't do it, you can't do it. 15 It is late in the day, but we'll do it anyway. 16 We'll take ten minutes. You look through this 17 and see if you think that is an accurate thing you 18 got off the Internet. I don't care if you do it 19 here or whatever, but we'll take ten and let's 20 prepare to go a little late tonight. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, is it possible for me 22 to talk to my attorney at all? 23 THE COURT: Sure. Take that with you, if you 24 want to. I presume this thing just came off the 25 Internet. My guess is that this was a pushed copy 375 1 and the copies came out. So I don't know if it's 2 any big deal, but in fairness, I think she ought to 3 be able to look at it. 4 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 5 _____________________________________ 6 THE COURT: You may continue. 7 Did you have time to read that? 8 THE WITNESS: I did, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Was that the Internet posting? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, as far as I can tell. I 11 didn't compare it to the Internet, but I believe it 12 is. 13 THE COURT: Well, counsel, you tell us. Is 14 this something where you pushed a button and it said 15 "print" and it came off the Internet? 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, I -- like yourself, I'm not 17 much of a button-pusher with computers. But as I 18 understand it, you pushed the button, that is what 19 came out. That document wasn't tampered with. 20 THE COURT: I'll let you introduce it. But I 21 want a clean copy, not something that has notes on 22 it. 23 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. I'll supplement 24 that. 25 THE COURT: And what -- what do we have here? 376 1 Plaintiff's Exhibit what? 2 THE CLERK: 4. 3 THE COURT: 4? Okay. You want to hand me your 4 copy, and I'll just take that as my copy, and 5 I'll -- I don't care about the notes. Are there any 6 notes on here I shouldn't read or anything like 7 that? 8 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, it was 9 underlinings. 10 MR. FUGATE: There were no notes on mine. 11 THE COURT: I don't care about underlining. 12 Everybody makes underlining. 13 You will substitute a clean copy tomorrow for 14 the clerk, right? 15 MR. LIROT: I will. And I can make sure 16 counsel gets a copy of whatever we run off the 17 Internet, so -- make sure everybody is on the same 18 page. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: That is Exhibit 4, Judge, for the 21 defense? 22 THE COURT: Exhibit 4 of the plaintiff. 23 MR. DANDAR: Of the plaintiff. 24 THE COURT: Go on ahead. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 377 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Anything in the time line, so to speak, that is 3 inaccurate? 4 A Well, I would say it may have some editorializing 5 by me to make my point. But I made it as accurate as I 6 could. 7 Q So when it says something about the Scientologists 8 picketing outside Mr. Minton's daughter's house, or 9 something like that, that is accurate, but what you might 10 have said about it might have been your own editorialization 11 along those lines? 12 A Yes. It was accurate, to the best of my 13 knowledge. 14 Q What is the time frame? Do you remember what the 15 time frame is, where we begin and where we end there? 16 It starts early 1997, isn't that correct? 17 A Well, there is one entry for 1996. But it pretty 18 much starts in '97. And then it goes through August of 19 2001. But, yeah. 20 Q Okay. Did more happen since August of 2001? 21 A Well, primarily what has happened since then is 22 further discovery. 23 Q Okay. Now, absent your editorializing dates and 24 events and descriptions of those events, is that document 25 true and accurate? 378 1 A To the best of my knowledge. 2 Q Okay. Now -- 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 Are you done with that document? 6 MR. LIROT: I'm done with that document, ma'am. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Do you have a copy of your affidavit, the 10 April 3rd, I believe, it is? 11 A Yes, I do. 12 Q And on the cover is a notice of filing, right? Or 13 is that just the affidavit? 14 A No, it is notice of filing. 15 THE COURT: Let's make sure we have the same 16 affidavit. Mine shows a date of -- at least what I 17 presume to be a date, the 29th of April. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. But the notice of filing is 19 the 30th. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q I think -- 22 THE COURT: You are right. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Now, I think your testimony was yesterday -- or 25 Friday, you had prepared that document? 379 1 A Yes. 2 Q Did you type it up yourself? 3 A Yes. I did. 4 Q All right. Did you provide that to your counsel? 5 A Yes. 6 Q I'm not going to ask you anything that you 7 conversed about. But did you go over the contents of that 8 affidavit with your counsel? 9 A Yes, I did. 10 Q Did you go over that affidavit with counsel for 11 the Church of Scientology? 12 A Mmm, with one counsel for them. 13 Q Okay. Was your counsel present? 14 A Not for -- for a couple of the times, they 15 weren't. 16 Q A couple of the times? So, basically, that 17 affidavit is written by you but with the help of the Church 18 of Scientology? 19 A No. 20 Q Their counsel was present while you were working 21 on that affidavit. Is that correct? 22 A Mmm, for a little bit. Yes. 23 Q Okay. 24 THE COURT: Which lawyer -- which lawyer from 25 Scientology was present? 380 1 THE WITNESS: Monique Yingling. 2 (Spelling requested by the court reporter.) 3 THE WITNESS: Y-I-N-G-L-I-N-G. 4 THE COURT: She's not known to me. So I take 5 it she's just another one of the Church's lawyers 6 that is involved in some -- I don't know if she's 7 involved in this case. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: She's not involved in this 9 case. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q But you know Ms. Yingling to be a long-term 12 counsel for the church? 13 A Yes. 14 Q She doesn't work with the estate, does she? 15 A The estate? 16 Q Of Lisa McPherson? 17 A No. 18 Q No chance. Right? 19 A Not that I know of. 20 Q Okay. And she's not represented you in any prior 21 action, is that correct? 22 A No. 23 Q And she has not represented Mr. Minton in any 24 prior action? 25 A No. 381 1 Q Why are you working with her? 2 A Mmm, well, I specifically asked her for some help 3 on this. Mr. McGowan and I -- my attorney and I -- had been 4 given some documents by the Church of Scientology. And I 5 wanted to make sure that my affidavit was very complete. 6 And so I asked her if there was any other 7 documents that I was not aware of. 8 Basically, the situation that I found myself in 9 was that, you know, Mr. Dandar obviously wouldn't want to be 10 helping me very much right now. Okay? And -- 11 Q Well -- well -- I'm sorry, finish your answer. 12 A Okay. And I didn't have anywhere else to go for a 13 repository of my depositions or my -- or any of the motions 14 or anything else that had happened in the case. 15 So I -- well, Mr. McGowan and I both asked counsel 16 for Scientology if they would provide us with relevant 17 documents. And they agreed to do so. 18 Q Okay. I don't want to sound impolite, but is that 19 because you couldn't remember how many lies you told? 20 A Mmm, yes. Actually, it's because I wasn't sure of 21 the dates, and I wasn't sure of which depositions were 22 involved, and I wanted to make sure that my recantation was 23 complete. And my attorney advised that we asked them for 24 the documents that would be relevant. 25 Q Those are all on your website? 382 1 A No. They are not. 2 Q All your depositions are on the website, aren't 3 they? 4 A No. 5 Q Not at all? 6 A I don't think so. 7 Q Okay. 8 A Certainly our website doesn't have a full record 9 of the -- of the case. 10 Q Well, how many depositions have you taken in -- 11 related to Lisa McPherson and the Church of Scientology? 12 THE COURT: Maybe the word "taken" is 13 incorrect. It is "given." How many depositions did 14 she give -- 15 MR. LIROT: Thank you, judge. 16 THE COURT: -- regarding this case, if you 17 know. 18 A Oh, well, regarding this case and the breach case, 19 both. I was concerned about both cases. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Okay. 22 A And I think maybe seven or eight. 23 Q Okay. 24 A Even more, perhaps. 25 Q So you have given seven or eight depositions. And 383 1 I guess you lied -- I don't know what else to say, maybe 2 I'll just say misrepresented -- you misrepresented the 3 agreement and -- 4 THE COURT: She said she committed perjury. So 5 I suppose you could call it perjurious testimony. 6 MR. LIROT: That works for me, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q You engaged in perjurious testimony involving an 9 agreement and a check, and you had to meet with Ms. Yingling 10 to make sure you had that right across the board? 11 A Well, actually, if you have seen my recantation 12 affidavit -- 13 Q I saw both of them. Yes. 14 A -- there are a few other things that I included. 15 And as the Judge pointed out earlier, if you are going to 16 recant, you better make sure it is complete. 17 Q You didn't get it done, did you? 18 A And -- what? 19 Q You didn't get it all? 20 A What do you mean? 21 Q Apparently, there were other things that the Judge 22 noted today that you didn't quite get on there right. 23 A Actually, there was one issue that she and I 24 discussed. And she understood why it could have been that 25 it was left out. 384 1 Q Okay. I'm sure that is up to the Judge. 2 THE WITNESS: Did you understand that, Judge? 3 THE COURT: The record will speak for itself. 4 And we'll discuss that at a later time. 5 I was just interested, when I read this last 6 night, because as I said, I tried to make it clear, 7 I thought what Mr. Dandar was expressing up before 8 Judge Baird was somewhat unbelievable, somewhat just 9 unimaginable for me. 10 And once I read about it in a deposition, the 11 same thing being said by Mr. Minton about another 12 half-a-million-dollar anonymous contribution, well, 13 I thought, well, perhaps that is what he told 14 Mr. Dandar. In other words, that is what this 15 hearing is all about. 16 But I kind of brought myself back to neutral. 17 Let's put it that way. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Just to explore that, that is not in your second 21 affidavit -- 22 THE COURT: But I did suggest that -- I did 23 suggest the fact that money was given by Mr. Minton, 24 as opposed to an anonymous donor, had not been 25 corrected, to the best of my knowledge, on either 385 1 his affidavit or Ms. Brooks'. 2 I don't know what Ms. Brooks knew about it. 3 But I read Mr. Minton's deposition and I knew that 4 he had said, under oath, that was an anonymous 5 $500,000. 6 It would seem to me that Mr. Minton obviously 7 knows this, and if that is not accurate, he probably 8 would do well to correct that. And so would 9 Ms. Brooks if, in fact, she testified about it. 10 I thought that I had seen where Mr. Minton said 11 it was in her deposition. I did not read her 12 deposition. There are only so many hours in a day. 13 MR. LIROT: Agreed. 14 THE COURT: And I spent a lot of time this 15 weekend reading little bitty lines. Those little 16 four pages to a page. They are all right, but when 17 you are reading page after page, they are awfully 18 small. 19 That was a little editorialization. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Just to fill in the blanks, that is in your 22 deposition, though, about donations to the Lisa McPherson 23 Trust from other sources? 24 MR. FUGATE: Which deposition, so I can look at 25 it? 386 1 MR. LIROT: I think we have already established 2 that, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if we have or 4 not. I just made a comment that Mr. Minton 5 apparently -- because of a note that I made that 6 indicated in his deposition that it was in 7 Ms. Brooks' deposition, I don't know because I have 8 not read all of hers. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge -- 10 THE WITNESS: But -- but it was in an 11 August 15, 2001 deposition. I already said that. 12 THE COURT: Oh. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q You recall that? 15 A Yes. I do. 16 Q But you didn't fix that in your affidavit, did 17 you? 18 A Well, as the Judge and I discussed, I had only -- 19 I only later found out that that was incorrect. 20 Q But you knew about it on August -- or, excuse me, 21 April 29, a couple days ago, when you signed this one. 22 Right? 23 A Yes. I did. 24 Q And you left it out, didn't you? 25 A That is why the Judge suggested I should add it. 387 1 But I explained -- 2 Q No, the Judge spotted the same thing. You left it 3 out to make Mr. Dandar look a little bit strange. But when 4 it happens all of the time, it doesn't look as bad for 5 Mr. Dandar, does it? 6 MR. FUGATE: I'll object to that as 7 argumentative. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. I suppose the thing 9 that would have to do in this case is was there ever 10 any discussion between you and any representative of 11 the Church of Scientology regarding that, suggesting 12 you don't have to -- you don't have to clear that 13 up? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right. That would be relevant 16 to this case. Otherwise, it just needs to be 17 cleared up because it is something in this record 18 that is false. 19 I don't mean to cut you off from exploring that 20 if you want to explore that, but that would be 21 important to me in this matter. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And I think you were asked in there anything that 24 is false, in your -- 25 A I'm sorry? 388 1 Q In your April 29th recanting affidavit, is there 2 anything in there that is false? 3 A No. 4 Q Now, you have written declarations and affidavits 5 quite often, haven't you? 6 THE COURT: Asked and answered. 7 MR. LIROT: Okay. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Why would you need help on this one? 10 A Mmm, I think I already said, I didn't need help 11 writing it. I just needed help making sure I had documents 12 that I needed. And I believe this may be incorrect, but I 13 believe that the reason that counsel was present at all 14 times was to make sure that there was no -- there could be 15 no question of impropriety in the meetings that I had. 16 Q Okay. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought you said you 18 had met with Ms. Yingling on a couple of occasions 19 when your lawyer wasn't there. 20 THE WITNESS: What I'm saying, your Honor, is I 21 think the purpose of her being there was to make 22 sure that there was an attorney present. 23 THE COURT: I see. So who else was present 24 beside her? 25 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rinder. 389 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Mr. Rinder has given you affidavits previously, 3 hasn't he? 4 A What do you mean? 5 Q Haven't you been presented with affidavits by the 6 Church, trying to get you to back off the testimony in other 7 cases? 8 A Oh, no. 9 MR. FUGATE: Just objection to time frame. 10 THE COURT: I think you better lay a predicate, 11 if you can. 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, could I approach the 13 witness? 14 THE COURT: You can. You may. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I have an extra copy for the 16 Court. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 A Yes, this wasn't part of a case. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q I haven't asked any questions yet. 21 A Oh. Okay, sir. 22 Q That is on the Lisa McPherson Trust website, isn't 23 it the way to get this document? Do you recognize it? 24 A I do recognize it. It was from 1994. Yeah. 25 Q Okay. And is this available on the Lisa McPherson 390 1 Trust website under the description: "Declaration of Stacy 2 Young dated December 14, 1994. Two high-level 3 Scientology --" I guess "-- Rinder and Mike Sutter, offer to 4 pay Stacy, and her husband at the time, Robert Vaughn, for 5 their silence. When they refused, Scientology starts the 6 fear game attacks, et cetera. They do a noisy investigation 7 and smear their names." 8 Did you write that? 9 A No. I actually wasn't aware that this was on the 10 website. But I did direct others to put all my declarations 11 on the website. 12 Q Okay. 13 A So this is one of my declarations, so -- 14 Q And I think your testimony was you haven't backed 15 off any of those declarations. You just don't like what you 16 have done in the Lisa McPherson case. You just want to wrap 17 this up. Right? 18 A I'm backing off of all of the declarations that I 19 have made. 20 Q Because they're all -- every word is untrue? 21 A No. Because I want to be out of this 22 anti-Scientology work altogether. So I would prefer that 23 none of my declarations continue to be used. 24 Q Okay. 25 THE COURT: Is this false, ma'am? Where were 391 1 you reading from? Paragraph 10? 2 THE WITNESS: No. He's reading an 3 introduction, your Honor, that doesn't show on this. 4 MR. LIROT: It's a description on the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust website. And if she didn't write 6 it, I guess I won't ask her about that. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q But this declaration speaks for itself. Right? 9 A Yes. 10 Q I guess in Paragraph 3 you described that you are 11 over 18 years of age. 12 Let me just ask you this. Let me just establish. 13 This is a declaration dated December 14, 1994. Correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And do you recall what case you prepared this 16 declaration for? 17 A As I said, I don't believe I prepared this for a 18 case. I believe I prepared it because there was a 19 declaration that I was shown by Mr. Rinder which gave a 20 different account of this experience. And I believe -- 21 Q And so -- 22 A And I believe -- in fact I know I wrote this 23 declaration to respond to that. And -- 24 Q Okay, so -- 25 A And I don't know that it was ever filed in any 392 1 case. 2 Q Well, where would Mr. Rinder's declaration, that 3 this is in response to, have been filed? 4 A I don't know that it was ever filed, either. I 5 got it from Mr. Leipold, I believe. 6 Q And do you have -- 7 A I don't know. 8 Q Do you have any knowledge how Mr. Leipold would 9 have gotten Mr. Rinder's declaration if it wasn't filed in a 10 lawsuit? 11 A I don't remember. But I just remember there being 12 some question about whether it was actually ever filed and, 13 therefore, perhaps mine would never be filed, either. I'm 14 not sure. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach the witness? 16 I don't have any extra copies of this. 17 THE COURT: Well, this -- are you introducing 18 this? 19 MR. LIROT: I would like to. 20 THE COURT: Is this true, ma'am? This is your 21 declaration -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am. 23 MR. FUGATE: It's not signed. That is the only 24 thing I note. 25 THE COURT: Well, she said it's her 393 1 declaration. It is on the Internet. You can't sign 2 things on the Internet. 3 A I did write it. I was pretty angry when I wrote 4 it. But I didn't say anything that I thought was false. 5 MR. LIROT: Okay. 6 THE COURT: Are you introducing this as your 7 Number 5? 8 MR. LIROT: Yes, I am, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Did you give a copy to 10 the clerk? 11 MR. LIROT: I will give the clerk my copy. 12 I'll make sure -- 13 THE COURT: One of the things we need to do in 14 these hearings, if we are going to use and show 15 things to people, we really need to have them 16 marked. Hopefully, we'll do better when -- if we 17 get to trial. They need to be marked by the clerk. 18 When somebody is shown something, it needs to be 19 identified by a number so we know -- or somebody 20 knows, if this case is ever appealed -- what in the 21 world everybody is talking about. 22 So this would be Number 5, I take it. 23 THE CLERK: Yes, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Plaintiff's Number 5. And that 25 is -- for your information, Ms. Brooks, that is what 394 1 we're talking about here. This is going to be 2 Plaintiff's Number 5, a declaration of yours 3 executed, it says, in Seattle, Washington on the 4 14th of December, 1994. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Ms. Young, let me draw your attention to some of 8 the paragraphs in this. 9 This is dated December 14, 1994. Correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And I guess the original you signed under penalty 12 of perjury. Is that correct? 13 A Correct. 14 Q All right. In Paragraph 3, I think that you talk 15 about -- or I guess Paragraph 2 you talked about the Sea 16 Org. And I guess your testimony last week was the Sea Org 17 is some nebulous entity? 18 A No, I said it was an unincorporated entity, as I 19 recalled. I think I described it pretty much as I described 20 it here. 21 Q I think your testimony was that it was amorphous? 22 A Yes. 23 Q What did you mean by that? 24 A That it doesn't have any corporate shape. 25 Q Okay. Does it have a head or a leader? 395 1 A No. 2 Q There is no leader of the Sea Org? 3 A No. 4 Q Everybody is on equal terms, and any member of the 5 Sea Org can make a decision on behalf of the Sea Org? 6 A No. That is not the case. People who are in the 7 Sea Org have a Sea Org rank and they also have a particular 8 post. 9 And the post that they hold is what gives them 10 their authority or lack of authority, not their rank in the 11 Sea Org. 12 THE COURT: Who would be, I guess -- I guess 13 you have some sort of structure. Would the posts 14 get higher? Is there somebody at the top? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, there is a hierarchy. It is 16 very hierarchal. But the Sea Org is not the 17 hierarchy. 18 In other words -- in other words, it is based 19 on a Navy system. A person might have a rank 20 because they've been in the Sea Org for 20 or 25 21 years. And they might have achieved a rank in the 22 Sea Org as, say, warrant officer. But their actual 23 post could be -- Mmm -- Mmm, for example, a 24 receptionist. And so they don't have any authority 25 over anyone else, but they still have a rank as a 396 1 long-term Sea Org member as a warrant officer. So 2 they may have a higher rank in the Sea Org than 3 someone by post. 4 THE COURT: Who is at the top of the Sea Org? 5 THE WITNESS: Well, this is what the whole 6 issue was about David Miscavige. There is not 7 really any organizational chart for the Sea Org. 8 And especially now where people derive their 9 authority is from what their post is, not what 10 their -- what they are in the Sea Org. I don't know 11 if that makes sense but -- 12 THE COURT: Looking at your Paragraph 1, 13 "Unbeknownst to the outside world, even to lower 14 level Scientologists, the head of the Sea Org and of 15 Scientology, David Miscavige," then it goes on. 16 THE WITNESS: It goes on. 17 THE COURT: So I assume, at least as to this 18 declaration, you were suggesting that David 19 Miscavige would have been at the top of the Sea Org, 20 as well as other things. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I have used that 22 term, "head of the Sea Org," probably many times. 23 But, you know, I worked with -- worked with 24 Miscavige. And -- and by this time, one of the 25 issues that were in some of the litigation I was 397 1 working on was, you know, the role of the Sea Org 2 and the role of the -- the role of the corporations. 3 In other words, the alter egos -- there was an alter 4 ego theory being worked on at that time. 5 And as part -- as part of the crafting of the 6 alter ego theory in the cases I was working on, we 7 were already, as early as '94, calling Mr. Miscavige 8 the head of the Sea Org so we could attempt to set 9 aside the corporate structure. 10 Does that make sense? 11 THE COURT: Sort of. 12 THE WITNESS: Well -- 13 THE COURT: I don't think there is any dispute 14 about this that the highest ranking person in the 15 Church of Scientology is Mr. Miscavige. 16 THE WITNESS: Mr. Miscavige. Yes. 17 THE COURT: So whatever the hierarchy is, just 18 as in any church, you have an ultimate authority, 19 the highest person. The Pope, for example, in the 20 Catholic church -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: -- Mr. Miscavige would occupy that 23 post -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: -- in the Church of Scientology. 398 1 THE WITNESS: Right. And that post is chairman 2 of the board of RTC, because RTC runs everything. 3 And from that position, he can do whatever he 4 wants. He has a lot of authority. 5 He was the chairman of the board of a different 6 corporation before the RTC was established. And 7 from the disposition as chairman of the board of 8 that other corporation, he also had that same power. 9 THE COURT: And as we discussed the other day 10 in court with you under oath, I believe what you 11 said to me is when you told Mr. Dandar about the 12 possibility that the activities at the Church 13 regarding -- well, not the Church, at the hotel 14 involving Lisa McPherson, that you thought it was 15 possible that those things had been reported up the 16 line to David Miscavige. That was possible? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: All right. And I take it those 19 people -- maybe I'm wrong about this, but those 20 workers, those people that were taking care of Lisa 21 McPherson, those were Sea Org members? 22 THE WITNESS: I would assume so. 23 THE COURT: And -- and Kartuzinski was a Sea 24 Org member at that time? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 399 1 THE COURT: So all of the people who were -- 2 maybe I'm wrong, but I would just assume, from what 3 I have read, the people that were there, they were 4 directed to go do this and we'll set up posts as to 5 who will take care of Lisa during these hours and 6 what have you, those were Sea Org members being told 7 by their superior, whether it was in a post or 8 whether it was in a position, what to do? 9 THE WITNESS: I would assume so. Because -- 10 THE COURT: And after 17 days and no 11 appreciable change, as I said, you indicated the 12 other day under oath there was a possibility, which 13 you expressed to Mr. Dandar, that Mr. Miscavige may 14 have been informed of this? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach the witness? 17 THE COURT: You may. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q I want to hand you a photograph. And I'm also 20 going to hand you what looks to be letterhead, or at least 21 some message, "Church of Scientology International, Los 22 Angeles." 23 And I'm just going to ask you to draw your 24 attention to the last page of that typed document, as 25 opposed to the photograph. 400 1 THE COURT: What is this? Is this Number 6? 2 MR. LIROT: This will be Number 6 and Number 7, 3 Judge. 4 MR. FUGATE: Which is what? 5 MR. LIROT: Number 6 will be the photograph. 6 Number 7 will be the composite typewritten exhibit. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Drawing your attention to Composite Exhibit Number 9 7 -- 10 THE COURT: Do I have this? 11 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. We don't have many 12 copies here. 13 THE WITNESS: Are you talking about the 14 document? Or the picture? 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q The document is Number 7. The picture is Number 17 6. 18 THE COURT: Please do me a favor. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll tell you what, I'll 20 give you -- do we have another copy of this? 21 THE COURT: Do me a favor, when you have this 22 much stuff, I'm trying to keep up with it, for 23 heaven sakes, prepare a copy for the Court. 24 This is a hearing for me to make decisions, you 25 know. So I need to have copies. 401 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I can approach the bench. 2 THE COURT: So how can I possibly remember all 3 this? 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is what I asked to be 5 introduced as Composite Exhibit Number 7. 6 THE COURT: Does the clerk have one? 7 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. I'll make sure a 8 correct copy gets to the clerk. 9 THE COURT: You guys got to do better. 10 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Composite Exhibit Number 7 shows a breakdown -- I 14 guess the Sea Org is some amorphous entity in the Church of 15 Scientology. 16 What -- in your declaration, you talk about it -- 17 having at least some rudimentary knowledge of the Sea Org. 18 What is it you understand it to do? 19 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me, while we're 20 on the subject of the documents, we provided all of 21 the exhibits that I knew that we were going to use 22 in this hearing. 23 And it's difficult for me to try to read a 24 document that I haven't seen before to determine 25 whether or not I want to object, because somewhat 402 1 like the Court just went through with Ms. Brooks, I 2 have an objection to exactly how the Sea Org versus 3 staff is. 4 But this is difficult to try to listen to what 5 she's saying, what the questions are, and read the 6 document. 7 THE COURT: I understand that. And if it 8 were -- if it were a trial or something like that, I 9 would require them to give it to you in advance. 10 Obviously, as you know, this is a somewhat unusual 11 hearing. And I have no idea when you are getting 12 these documents. 13 If you get these documents in advance, please 14 provide them. I'm assuming for the fact they don't 15 have one for the clerk and they don't have one for 16 me, that perhaps this didn't come to their attention 17 until fairly recently, or we would hope he would 18 have copies for everybody. So -- 19 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 20 MR. FUGATE: I would just like to, before it is 21 admitted into evidence, reserve the right to object 22 to it, because I haven't even read it. 23 THE COURT: Yes. Sure. 24 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 25 THE COURT: I'll tell you what we'll do. Just 403 1 so that the record can -- what we're going to do -- 2 it is going to be marked for the record, in any 3 event, whether it is introduced or whether it isn't. 4 What I'll do is allow it to be -- if it can be 5 authenticated, I'll allow it to be introduced. And 6 then if you -- after having a chance to read it, if 7 you want to make some argument why it shouldn't be, 8 I'll allow you to make a motion to remove it. 9 MR. FUGATE: The website posting was one of the 10 things that started this, because I was trying to 11 read it and listen to the questions. And it is hard 12 to do that. 13 THE COURT: I know that. 14 MR. FUGATE: And this, I don't know if she can 15 authenticate it. 16 THE COURT: What you'll have to do with that 17 website is take it home and read it tonight. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to. 19 THE COURT: I am sure you are. Me, too. We 20 are going to try to read this. And it will be a 21 nice evening of reading for us. 22 MR. FUGATE: Whenever that starts. 23 THE COURT: Whenever we get around to that. 24 I'll try to finish Mr. Minton's deposition because I 25 still have one more long one to go. 404 1 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, as I understand it -- and 3 this isn't based on any personal knowledge -- that 4 document was apparently presented to the Internal 5 Revenue Service in a proceeding at some point. 6 And I guess it is part of a court record 7 involving the Church's -- 8 THE COURT: Well, we can't just have that, 9 counsel. 10 MR. LIROT: I'll verify it. 11 THE COURT: You can't just say, "I think this 12 is --" 13 MR. LIROT: I'll get it verified, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: You have to get it authenticated. 15 Is this your understanding of the Sea Org, as 16 best you know it? You had a chance to read it? 17 THE WITNESS: I haven't, your Honor. 18 MR. FUGATE: I guess my question is can she 19 authenticate it, even? 20 THE COURT: Right. I don't know what CSI PROD 21 means. Is CSI some entity within the Church? 22 MR. DANDAR: The mother church. 23 THE COURT: Well, then it would seem this comes 24 straight from the Church. 25 MR. MOXON: No. No, your Honor. She can't -- 405 1 you can ask her if she can authenticate the 2 document. I don't know where this thing comes from. 3 MR. DANDAR: The attorneys can authenticate it. 4 MR. LIROT: We'll find out what file that came 5 from and we'll get a certified copy. And then you 6 can take judicial notice of it. 7 THE COURT: Very good. Well, the only thing I 8 think that perhaps that she may be able to tell us 9 is what I think she's already said, and that is on 10 Page 3-5 of this document, ma'am, which is the last 11 page. 12 It seems to suggest the highest ranking 13 officers in the Sea Org are as follows. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, but I think you are on 15 Page -- there is another 3-5 right before that one. 16 THE COURT: Whoops. Okay. 17 THE WITNESS: Which says: "Although the Sea 18 Org itself does not have an organizational or 19 management structure, it does have officer selection 20 boards who review and decide on applications for 21 rankings." 22 And basically I had a chance to look at this 23 document enough to see that it pretty much is saying 24 what I said earlier, which is that the Sea Org 25 itself -- and, in my experience, when I was in 406 1 Scientology, you get ranks and ratings in the Sea 2 Org. 3 Sometimes you get them awarded to you for 4 good -- you know -- production or whatever. But 5 usually you provide -- you make an application to 6 get -- to get promoted. And then there is a 7 ceremony every year where the people who are being 8 promoted in rank or rating are awarded their new 9 rank and rating. 10 THE COURT: But whatever happens, the head -- 11 if there is a structure or whatever it is, it is -- 12 the head is always Mr. Miscavige? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, Mr. Miscavige is the head of 14 Scientology, and chairman of the board of RTC. 15 It talks in here a little about brevet rank, 16 military terms, brevet rank. I'm familiar with this 17 from being in the Sea Org. 18 There is such a thing as brevet rank, which it 19 is my understanding that you are giving -- given a 20 brevet rank because of the position you are holding, 21 you know. 22 Like if you are commanding officer of one of 23 the organizations, you are given a certain brevet 24 rank that goes along with that position, but you 25 don't hold that rank if you lose that position, or 407 1 whatever. 2 So, you know, the position that Miscavige 3 holds -- and I think this is the big issue here -- 4 the position that Miscavige holds which gives him 5 his authority is chairman of the board of RTC. If 6 he were to be busted off that position, he would no 7 longer be -- he would no longer have this rank of 8 captain. 9 THE COURT: Just like Hubbard had the rank of 10 captain -- 11 THE WITNESS: He had the rank of commodore. 12 But I think nobody else will ever be given the rank 13 of commodore, although -- I don't know, I may be 14 wrong about that. I left in 1989. But at the time 15 I was familiar with that, the rank of commodore had 16 been retired because it was going to only be a rank 17 that Mr. Hubbard would ever hold. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, maybe it would be better if 20 it was proffered as to what it is being offered for, 21 because there is a staff and fraternal organization. 22 They are two different things. And I think that is 23 what is leading to some confusion here. 24 And it is -- if it is an issue, we'll have to 25 address -- we'll address it. But when you say 408 1 everybody that was at the Ft. Harrison was in the 2 Sea Org, that is because they were on staff. And I 3 think that distinction was made earlier. 4 THE COURT: I know why it is being introduced. 5 And I'm sure you have figured it out, too. 6 Proceed. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Is there anything in that last page of Composite 7 9 that -- as far as the people shown to be the captain? Is 10 that inaccurate? 11 A I would certainly imagine -- I think your question 12 really is would it be accurate to say David Miscavige holds 13 the rank of captain? 14 Q Sure. 15 A As I just told the Judge -- 16 Q Just a yes or no. 17 A There is no -- there is no question that he would 18 have the highest rank to go along with being the highest 19 authority. 20 Q And -- and in Exhibit Number 6, the photograph, is 21 that Mr. Miscavige that has, I guess, the four stripes on 22 his sleeve? 23 A Yes. That is what -- that is to designate 24 captain. 25 Q Okay. Do you recognize that picture? 409 1 A I have seen it before. 2 Q Does it look to be pretty current? 3 A Mmm, well, to the degree that I believe 4 Mr. Miscavige is still in charge. Whenever this picture was 5 taken, it would still be accurate with regard to his 6 position. 7 THE COURT: I think he said does that look 8 fairly recent? You just met with Mr. Miscavige, 9 didn't you? 10 THE WITNESS: No. I haven't seen him since 11 1989. 12 A It would be within the last few years. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Okay. 15 A I would think. 16 Q But you recognize the gentleman -- and I guess do 17 you see anybody else with four stripes on their sleeve in 18 that picture? 19 A No. He would be the only one who would have four. 20 His wife here -- is here, Shelley. She has three. 21 THE COURT: Are these stripes, this military 22 ranking, this is part of the Sea Org? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. They are wearing Sea Org 24 uniforms. 25 THE COURT: Are you going to introduce that as 410 1 Number 6? 2 MR. LIROT: Yes, I am, Judge. 3 THE COURT: Could I have that? 4 Any objection? 5 THE WITNESS: Do you need this one? 6 THE COURT: Yes, if you are done with it. 7 Any objection to this picture? This is a 8 fairly simple thing. 9 MR. FUGATE: It's a picture, Judge. No 10 objection. 11 THE COURT: It will be received as Number 6. 12 MR. FUGATE: Relevance, but -- 13 THE COURT: No, I think it is relevant. 14 Overruled, if that is an objection. 15 And, Number 7, as far as I'm concerned, it has 16 been authenticated for purpose of this hearing, 17 which, if there is a head of the Sea Org, it is 18 David Miscavige. 19 MR. MOXON: I'll object, your Honor. She can't 20 authenticate this at all. I didn't hear him ask her 21 if this was authentic, if she had ever seen it 22 before or anything else. 23 THE COURT: He said he would tie this up. 24 MR. MOXON: But that doesn't -- 25 THE COURT: But for her purpose and for the 411 1 purpose of this hearing as to whether or not, 2 somehow or another, Mr. Dandar put something false 3 and fraudulent on the Court in suggesting that 4 Mr. Miscavige was -- was at the head of this and may 5 have had information about this case, it has 6 relevance. So for that purpose, it is admissible. 7 And so your objection is overruled. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Let me draw your attention back to Exhibit Number 10 5, your declaration of December 14, 1994. 11 You understand, obviously -- do you know what date 12 Lisa McPherson died? 13 A December 5, 1995. 14 Q Okay. So this declaration was well before that 15 date, was it not? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. And I think in Paragraph 1 you said you 18 were over 18 years of age, a resident of Seattle. I won't 19 quibble with that. 20 Paragraph 2, you articulated you were a 21 Scientologist for 15 years. 22 MR. LIROT: And, obviously, I'll just 23 paraphrase this, Judge. The document will speak for 24 itself? 25 THE COURT: Why do you have to go through it? 412 1 If there is something, in particular, you want to 2 ask her about some particular paragraph, let's go to 3 that. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Paragraph Number 3, that paragraph, I think you 6 say, describes the abuses of Scientology. 7 Why don't you read that for the record. 8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, if it speaks for 9 itself, it speaks for itself. 10 THE COURT: I'll agree with that. 11 MR. LIROT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Is there anything that you state in there about 14 what you felt were the abuses of Scientology? Was there 15 anything in there you felt was untrue? 16 A No. I believed it to be true when I wrote it. 17 Q And the last phrase of that sentence is, I think 18 you mentioned, "denial of proper medical care for people 19 driven into psychotic episodes as a result of such abuse as 20 described above." 21 You believed that to be true in 1994 long before 22 Lisa McPherson passed away, is that true? 23 A Yes. Yes. 24 Q Did you see any examples of that in your 15 years 25 with Scientology? 413 1 A Mmm, I was involved in one situation in which a 2 woman -- in which I was actually one of the people caring 3 for a woman who was in a psychotic episode. 4 Q Was that person denied proper medical care, in 5 your opinion? 6 A She was cared for by us, and we were not medical 7 doctors, similar to Lisa being cared for by the people who 8 cared for her. 9 Q Did you have to force-feed that one woman? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And in Paragraph 6 it says that: "In July of 12 1994, just this past summer, two high-level Scientologists 13 approached my husband and me and offered to pay us money if 14 we would perjure ourselves by stating under oath that the 15 information we provided in sworn declarations is false, 16 which it is not, and agreed never to speak or write another 17 critical word about Scientology again." 18 Was that true? 19 A Mmm, no. It's not. 20 Q Nobody offered you -- nobody offered you money? 21 A Yes. We were offered money. 22 Q They did? All right. So what is untrue about 23 that statement? 24 A We weren't asked to perjure ourselves. I thought 25 that we had been at that time. But I have since learned 414 1 that that was not the case. 2 Q All right, well, let me draw your attention to 3 Paragraph 8 -- 4 THE COURT: Well, counselor -- when did you 5 learn that? 6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, within the last month, your 7 Honor -- 8 THE COURT: And -- 9 THE WITNESS: -- that particular issue came up. 10 THE COURT: How did it come up? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, I had conversation with 12 Mr. Rinder, in which I asked him about it. 13 And he told me some things about the 14 circumstances surrounding that -- the affidavit that 15 they showed to us that made me realize that he did 16 not consider that it would be perjuring myself if I 17 signed it. 18 THE COURT: So this same conversation with 19 Mr. Rinder was in some confidential communication 20 you have had with him about trying to work out this 21 case and all of the rest of the cases and extricate 22 yourself from all of the problems you and Mr. Minton 23 have? 24 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, it wasn't a 25 confidential conversation. 415 1 THE COURT: Well, was it part of your 2 discussion with Mr. Rinder about extricating 3 yourself from what you thought the problems you had 4 with this case were? 5 THE WITNESS: Mmm, it was part of that ongoing 6 discussion. Yes. I -- I asked him about that. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Rinder -- I don't know where he 8 falls into the hierarchy of the Church -- but is he 9 a high-ranking person? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. He's very high-ranking. 11 THE COURT: I don't know and I'm asking this 12 because I don't know, is he right under 13 Mr. Miscavige? Or -- 14 THE WITNESS: There may be some people between 15 he and Mr. Miscavige. But he's fairly high-ranking. 16 And I would think that he works with Mr. Miscavige 17 directly, at least some of the time. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And how was it that you and 19 he discussed this? 20 In other words, this is fairly specific, "that 21 they offered to pay us money if we would perjure 22 ourselves by stating under oath that we had -- that 23 the information we have provided in sworn 24 declarations is false, which it is not, and agreeing 25 never to speak or write another critical word 416 1 again." 2 Tell me exactly what discussion you had with 3 him about that. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. Mmm, he was -- he was 5 talking about another former Scientologist whose 6 name is Vicky Aznaran, A-Z-N-A-R-A-N. 7 And this was in the context of -- hang on just 8 a minute. It was in the context of talking -- he 9 was telling me about how -- oh, I remember. He was 10 talking to me about how angry Vicky Aznaran -- I'll 11 make it as fast as I can -- when she found out that 12 an attorney she had written an affidavit for had 13 added pages to the affidavit, after she signed it 14 and turned it in to him. 15 And she had then written in the affidavit 16 stating that she -- stating that: "I wrote an 17 8-page affidavit and signed it and turned it in to 18 this attorney. And after I turned it in to him, he 19 added pages to the affidavit, unbeknownst to me." 20 Well, that is one of the things in the critic 21 community -- that everyone has always believed that 22 Scientology had Vicky Aznaran write a false 23 affidavit, saying that this attorney had done this. 24 Nobody has ever believed that -- that that really 25 happened. They thought that, as part of her 417 1 settlement with Scientology, they had gotten Vicky 2 Aznaran an affidavit to write, basically saying that 3 this attorney did this bad thing, when it wasn't 4 really true. 5 Well, the reason that it came up was because 6 Vicky Aznaran had settled with them about probably 7 less than a month before this -- well, no, not less 8 than a month before this declaration -- but less 9 than a month before July '93 when we got together 10 with these people that is the subject of this 11 affidavit. 12 And -- and I was flabbergasted to have him tell 13 me that it was really true that this attorney 14 actually added pages to an affidavit after she 15 turned it in. 16 And he said, you know, "I'm telling you, you 17 can ask Vicky Aznaran yourself, if you want to. She 18 was really upset about this when she wrote that 19 affidavit." 20 Well, the reason it is relevant, your Honor, is 21 because my husband and I met with them for quite a 22 number of days. And -- Mmm -- 23 THE COURT: Met with "them" being who? 24 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rinder and Mr. Sutter, as 25 described in this affidavit. 418 1 And when they -- at the end of eight days' 2 worth of talks, they -- we said, you know, what kind 3 of thing is it that you want us to sign? You know, 4 what -- what things would you want us to do? 5 And they pulled out a draft of an affidavit in 6 which it said that we had -- in which it said that 7 this attorney had added things to affidavits of 8 ours, the same way the attorney had done it to Vicky 9 Aznaran. 10 Well, it was only in the last month, when I had 11 this conversation with Mr. Rinder, that it even 12 really occurred to me that they might have actually 13 thought that this attorney was doing the same thing 14 with us, and that that is why they presented that in 15 that affidavit. 16 I have thought for -- for -- for a very long 17 time, since this incident occurred, that they were 18 knowingly giving me a false affidavit to sign. But 19 I now feel that that wasn't the case. 20 THE COURT: Do you know whether or not some 21 attorney added pages to your affidavit? 22 THE WITNESS: I don't believe that happened. 23 But I'm just saying that -- 24 THE COURT: Didn't you just tell me that what 25 they asked you to sign this time was an affidavit 419 1 that said an attorney had added pages to your 2 affidavit? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. But what I'm 4 saying is that I think that the Scientologists, 5 because of what happened with Vicky Aznaran less 6 than a month before they met with me -- I think they 7 were assuming the attorney had done the same thing 8 with me, and that is why they were saying that in 9 the affidavit that they showed me -- 10 THE COURT: But, in truth, ma'am, they wanted 11 you to sign the affidavit? 12 THE WITNESS: They sure did. 13 THE COURT: They sure did. And you didn't know 14 that an attorney had added pages, and they didn't, 15 either? 16 THE WITNESS: Right. But they -- but they -- 17 you know, all I'm saying, your Honor, is that at the 18 time that I wrote this affidavit right here, I very 19 much believed that they wanted us to perjure 20 ourselves. 21 And now, as I sit here with you today, I no 22 longer have such a conviction that that was the 23 case. 24 THE COURT: But if you could see your affidavit 25 that they were talking about, you would know whether 420 1 somebody added pages or not? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would. 3 THE COURT: And if somebody didn't add pages, 4 then they wouldn't have been asking you to sign a 5 false affidavit? 6 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 7 THE COURT: If somebody had added pages -- 8 THE WITNESS: Then they would be asking me to 9 sign a true affidavit. 10 THE COURT: Right. Okay. But is it true that 11 they offered you money for this? 12 THE WITNESS: Well, they were offering us money 13 to settle with us, basically. 14 THE COURT: What -- I guess these are not the 15 kinds of settlements I'm used to. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, yeah. 17 THE COURT: What were they going to settle? 18 What was there to settle? That you stop -- that you 19 stop -- 20 THE WITNESS: That we would -- 21 THE COURT: -- submitting affidavits? 22 THE WITNESS: That we would stop acting as 23 experts against Scientology and consultants against 24 Scientology. 25 THE COURT: They were going to pay you money 421 1 for your silence, essentially? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, basically. 3 THE COURT: All right, continue on. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, the last sentence of Paragraph 6 on 6 the top of Page 2 of 9 says: "These two Scientologists 7 warned us if we refused to agree to their terms, they would 8 increase the intimidation and harassment of us, break us 9 financially, and ruin our reputations. We still refused to 10 give in to their threats." 11 True? 12 A It was a little bit -- 13 Q True? 14 A -- elaborated on. 15 Q True? 16 A But it was basically true. 17 THE COURT: Don't argue with this witness now. 18 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 19 A It was quite a bit elaborated on, but it was my 20 understanding of what they were doing. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q The next number of paragraphs -- again, the 23 document speaks for itself -- talks about the power that 24 Scientology apparently still had over you at that time. 25 You talk a lot about mind control, and I guess the 422 1 ability to -- I'm looking at Paragraph 13, the second 2 sentence: "Although I did not realize it at the time, I was 3 still under the influence of the cult to the degree they 4 could still intimidate me, frighten me and 'trigger' strong 5 emotional reactions in me." 6 True? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Still true? 9 A No. 10 Q Not at all? 11 A No. Strong -- 12 Q I haven't asked any questions. 13 A But it is part of my answer -- 14 THE COURT: Go ahead. 15 A What has caused me to be afraid more recently has 16 been the threat that I would go to jail for perjury. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Let me draw your attention to Paragraph 16 on Page 19 3-9, about two-thirds of the way down there. It says: "I 20 discovered that, indeed, one of their main purposes was to 21 get us to discredit Mr. Barry, who had been extremely 22 successful in litigating against Scientology. The key theme 23 of the declarations they drafted for us to sign was that 24 Mr. Barry had orchestrated every aspect of our attack 25 against Scientology. We refused to go along with the 423 1 character assassination of Mr. Barry." 2 True? 3 A Mmm, is this a scan? Or where did you get this? 4 Oh, off the website. Okay. 5 Q Your website. 6 A I'm just seeing lots of typos. 7 Q Do you know how to get a copy of the original? 8 A Mmm, well, probably what happened was the person 9 who scanned it didn't correct these things before it went on 10 the website, if you downloaded this from the website. 11 Q Do you maintain copies of your declaration -- do 12 you have original copies of those declarations in any files? 13 A No. I don't. I mean, I'm just saying that must 14 be how these things happened, because I don't usually have 15 typos in my declarations. 16 Q I guess the question was, was it true? Did you 17 feel they were trying to go through this exercise to 18 discredit their attorney in the case? 19 THE COURT: Who is "their attorney"? They were 20 trying to discredit their own attorney? 21 THE WITNESS: No. No. 22 MR. LIROT: No, judge, I misspoke. The 23 attorney against Scientology in that case, 24 Mr. Barry. 25 A That is how I felt at the time I wrote this. Yes. 424 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Let me draw your attention to 3 Paragraph Number 18 on Page 4 of 9. 4 The first sentence says: "First and most 5 importantly, at the very outset of these meetings, we made 6 it clear that we would not perjure ourselves by recanting 7 any statements made in our previous declarations that we 8 stated was true, and we would not now lie by saying what we 9 had written was not true." 10 It says: "Much to their dismay, we also made it 11 clear immediately we would not in any way denigrate 12 Mr. Barry. 13 "They tried to change our minds about Mr. Barry by 14 suggesting that he had put us up to writing our 15 declarations." 16 Then the last sentence, it says: "The key theme 17 in the declarations they drafted for us to sign was that 18 Mr. Barry had orchestrated every aspect of our attack 19 against Scientology." 20 A Where are you reading from now? 21 Q The last sentence of Paragraph 18. 22 A Oh. Okay. 23 Q True? 24 A Which part? 25 Q Is everything in Paragraph 18 true? 425 1 A Let me just look it over, because I haven't had a 2 chance to read the whole thing. 3 Q Certainly. 4 A Mmm, as I said, this is definitely how I felt at 5 the time I wrote this declaration. I don't feel this way 6 any more. But I definitely felt that way then. 7 Q Why don't you feel that way now? 8 A As I said, I have had a chance to get other 9 information. 10 Q You don't -- you don't at some point think they 11 were going out of their way to discredit this attorney to 12 undermine the case? 13 A Oh, there is no question they were -- that they 14 wanted us to discredit the attorney. 15 Q Did they file a motion to disqualify in that case, 16 if you know? 17 A I don't know. But -- but, Mmm, what I'm saying, I 18 guess, is at that time I thought that they were 19 intentionally wanting us to lie. 20 And at this time, as I sit here before you today, 21 I don't believe that that is what they were asking us to do. 22 Q Well, what were they asking you to do? 23 A I think that they believed that Mr. Barry had done 24 unethical things, and that they wanted us to provide 25 evidence about that. 426 1 Q And instead of going to the Court, they threatened 2 you with intimidation, harassment, financial ruin and 3 whatever else you articulate? 4 A Well, as I said -- 5 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. That 6 presumes facts not in evidence, as far as I know, 7 "instead of going to the Court." I object to the 8 characterization. 9 THE COURT: Overruled. 10 A What was the question again? Sorry. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Did they take this to the Court? 13 A Mmm, I don't know. I don't know. We weren't 14 involved in this case any longer, so I don't know what 15 happened. 16 But, you know, Mr. Lirot, there is no question 17 that Scientology plays real hard ball in their litigation. 18 I don't think anybody in the world would disagree with that. 19 Q Where is -- what is the line between hard ball and 20 what is in this affidavit is my question. 21 A Well, as I said, it was a little bit of an 22 exaggeration to say they were threatening those things that 23 I said in my affidavit. It's the way that I felt. Mmm, I 24 wasn't -- I didn't understand the litigation process then 25 the way I do now. 427 1 Q So -- 2 A I didn't understand the -- Mmm, the -- Mmm, the 3 various avenues that can be taken to try to make litigation 4 go the way a party wants it to go. And -- 5 THE COURT: What avenues do you think those are 6 now? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, for example, I think -- 8 THE COURT: Blackmailing the judge? 9 THE WITNESS: No. I don't think so. 10 THE COURT: I don't, either. 11 THE WITNESS: I don't think that is okay, your 12 Honor. 13 But I guess I would have to say, generally 14 speaking, your Honor, I no longer feel that the 15 Church of Scientology is resorting to illegalities 16 in their litigation procedures. I don't have any 17 evidence that they have. And I think that that 18 was -- 19 THE COURT: You certainly didn't, from what 20 little bit I have read in this affidavit, and I 21 haven't read it all. But, certainly -- 22 THE WITNESS: Oh, I was furious, your Honor. I 23 really was. And at that time I thought they were 24 the devil. I did. 25 THE COURT: As much as I would like to complete 428 1 this tonight, I can see we're not going to, so -- 2 I'm tired. 3 Where is a good place to stop? Are you going 4 to continue to keep going through this? 5 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. I think this document 6 speaks for itself. 7 THE COURT: Suffice it to say, ma'am, at the 8 time you wrote this declaration, you believed it to 9 be true? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. The declaration will be 12 received. I guess it has been received as -- what 13 number is it? It's Number 5? 14 MR. LIROT: It's Number 5, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Is this a good stopping point? 16 MR. DANDAR: We can go all night. 17 THE COURT: Well, I know you can. But I'm 18 getting to be an old woman so I can't. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, yes, I'm not going to burden 20 anybody else with going forward at this point. So 21 we'll pick it up when you think it is appropriate. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Let's have a little clue 23 here, just for my benefit. How much longer do you 24 think you'll be with this witness? 25 I mean, Mr. Minton comes every day and sits 429 1 outside. And it is fairly boring out there, a 2 pretty hard bench and fairly boring. 3 Will we finish with this witness tomorrow, or 4 not? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, we'll finish with this witness 6 tomorrow, Judge. We'll finish with this witness in 7 the morning is my anticipated schedule. 8 THE COURT: Okay. Then I suppose we better 9 have -- I mean, I don't know how lengthy redirect or 10 anything will be. But we better have Mr. Minton 11 present, because I would like a full day of it. 12 So I think you can feel relatively assured not 13 having your client come until tomorrow afternoon if 14 you would like, Mr. Howie. In fact, I will state if 15 we're fortunate to get to Mr. Minton tomorrow, it 16 will be one o'clock or later. So if you can have 17 him here by one, if you try to find out what time I 18 took a lunch break, that means after lunch. If I 19 break at 12:30 to 1:30, obviously, 1:30. 20 MR. LIROT: One admonition. Maybe we ask 21 Ms. Brooks that she maintain council only with her 22 own attorney? 23 THE COURT: Yes. This is important. I 24 suppose, counselor, you have explained this to her, 25 that she is on the stand, she is a witness. She 430 1 cannot have any communication. 2 And I realize how hard that must be when 3 Mr. Minton is the next witness, and their 4 relationship is such that they are together. But 5 you must try very hard not to discuss this with him 6 because, you know, if you do, and he mentions that 7 you have, then you are in deep trouble, because you 8 really can't. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Because you are still on the stand. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm really doing that. 12 THE COURT: And, counsel, I know she knows how 13 important this is while she's a witness. 14 MR. McGOWAN: She does, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: All right, we'll quit for the day. 16 We'll see you all back here at -- want to try for 9? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Fine. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. Thank you. 19 (WHEREUPON, Court stands adjourned for the 20 evening.) 21 ______________________________________ 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 431 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 5 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 6 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 7 8 Plaintiff, 9 vs. VOLUME 4 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 11 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 12 Defendants. 13 _______________________________________/ 14 15 16 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 17 DATE: May 7, 2002. 18 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 19 St. Petersburg, Florida. 20 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 21 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 22 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 23 24 25 432 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 433 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 434 1 THE COURT: Good morning. All right, we are 2 ready for you, Mr. Lirot, to proceed. You can stay 3 there if you like. 4 MR. LIROT: Good morning. Thank you, Judge. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Ms. Brooks -- 7 A Excuse me, Mr. Lirot, I'm sorry about this, but I 8 can't see you very well all of the way back there. I would 9 rather you sit/stand at the podium, if you wouldn't mind. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to let him stay there. 11 Just do the best you can. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 THE COURT: And the reason is, is because his 14 co-counsel there -- it's very distracting to me, 15 with co-counsel coming up. 16 THE WITNESS: I understand. 17 MR. LIROT: Very good, thank you, Judge. I 18 apologize, I'll make myself as visible as I can 19 here. 20 THE WITNESS: It's not your fault, it's my 21 eyesight. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q I wanted to ask you some questions initially about 24 your affidavit. And this would be -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, which affidavit? 435 1 MR. LIROT: I was going to get there. I was 2 going to describe it. I think it is Exhibit 72. 3 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Thank you. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q The one I guess you signed on April 29, it has 6 certificate of service for April 30th. I think Mr. McGowan 7 signed it -- 8 THE COURT: Do you have that? 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: I do, too. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q You had mentioned yesterday that -- 13 THE COURT: Oh, that is not an exhibit. That 14 is -- just actually has been filed -- oh, it's 72 15 to -- 16 MR. FUGATE: To the memorandum -- 17 THE COURT: But it's not in evidence in this 18 case. It's 72 to the memorandum, and it has been 19 filed with the court. 20 MR. FUGATE: Right. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q I guess I'll ask you some questions -- 24 THE COURT: Oh, before I get started -- 25 MR. LIROT: I'm, Judge -- 436 1 THE COURT: -- I wanted to bring something to 2 everyone's attention in the courtroom. I have been 3 advised that there have been some discussions with 4 witnesses or attempt to speak to witnesses outside 5 of the courtroom or otherwise coming from both 6 sides. It's got to stop. Before you know it, those 7 can be considered tampering with witness charges. 8 We can expand this hearing well beyond this. 9 So this is important to anyone in the audience, 10 and I presume you'll pass it on to the witnesses and 11 anybody else. You're not to talk, directly or 12 indirectly, to any of the witnesses that are going 13 to be called in this case. 14 MR. LIROT: I'll pass it on, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Now -- 18 THE COURT: And -- I'm sorry, if you have 19 witnesses that aren't present or if you have people 20 that aren't present that regularly attend otherwise, 21 would you please, for both sides, pass that on to 22 them? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 25 THE COURT: I have made this as an order. 437 1 There is to be no contact with any witness, directly 2 or indirectly, in this hearing throughout the 3 pendency of this proceeding. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Ms. Brooks, I guess you said that you had met with 8 Ms. Yingling. Bring me up to how you got from your original 9 concerns about Mr. Minton's I guess traumatized state. How 10 did you describe it? You saw that Mr. Minton wasn't talking 11 to people and was very distraught? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Well, describe his condition to me a little more, 14 if you would. 15 A Mmm, he was becoming very distraught. He was 16 depressed. He was very frightened about what the courts 17 were going to do to him in this case and in the breach case. 18 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird. I think that is -- 19 Q And that was it? Those were the only things that 20 he mentioned to you about his concern? Or was that just 21 your perception? 22 A That is what he was worried about. He was very 23 concerned about Judge Baird and Judge Schaeffer. 24 Q And that was it? 25 A Yes. 438 1 Q Those were the only things? 2 A Well, that was a pretty big thing. He was -- he 3 was -- he was feeling that -- 4 Q Well -- 5 A -- that both judges in both cases were -- well, he 6 was feeling basically that -- you know -- both of the judges 7 in both of the cases were going to find him in contempt, put 8 him in jail; that he was -- he had lied to both Courts, and 9 he basically felt like he was in a situation that had no way 10 out. He felt really trapped. He felt like Mr. Dandar was 11 holding him hostage to the case now. 12 Q Well, how could that be? How can Mr. Dandar hold 13 Mr. Minton hostage to anything? 14 A Because Mr. Minton felt that Mr. Dandar had 15 encouraged him and pressured him to lie under oath, and that 16 Mr. Dandar knew that this had happened. He had tried to 17 talk to him about another way to -- the only other way that 18 either of us could think to avoid -- or to get out of this 19 situation was to drop the case. And Mr. Dandar had said on 20 several occasions, in my presence, "But, Bob, even if you go 21 to jail, it won't affect the case." And so -- 22 Q So he's not held hostage? 23 A Excuse me. I'm not finished. 24 And so Mr. Minton felt very strongly that 25 Mr. Dandar had betrayed him and used him and -- and -- and, 439 1 Mmm, he was very, very depressed about it. 2 Q Well, what was to stop -- I take it that you were 3 Mr. Minton's confidant. You talked to Mr. Minton about 4 things that troubled him. You are close to Mr. Minton. You 5 see that he's in -- I think in a distraught state. Why not 6 just go to the Court? Why not go to the Court, say, "Hey, I 7 lied about a check, I lied about this agreement people are 8 talking about"? Why go to the opposition? Why try to get 9 the case dismissed? I guess I'll ask the first question. 10 Why would you go to your opponents when your 11 concern is not with your opponents but with statements made 12 under oath to the Court? 13 A Because the only other possibility -- well, that 14 is a lot of questions you just asked me. 15 I think the best way to answer it would be -- and 16 I think I have said this before, but I'll say it again -- 17 Mr. Minton felt a very strong sense that he would be 18 betraying the whole cause if he came forward to the Court. 19 He felt a very strong sense that, Mmm, all of the people 20 that he's worked with, all of the people that have very 21 strong feelings against Scientology, would turn against him 22 if he did something that would hurt the case. 23 Q Well -- 24 A And the only other possibility that we could see 25 was to try to settle with Scientology and get them to let us 440 1 both walk away from this whole thing. 2 THE COURT: Quite candidly, ma'am, was there a 3 bigger fear of the opponent than there was of the 4 Court? 5 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry? 6 THE COURT: I mean, I'm not sure if that is 7 responsive or not. The question is why did you go 8 to the opponent rather than the Court. Sounds like 9 what you said, that information could have been 10 brought through Mr. Howie, through your counsel, to 11 the Court, as well as going to the other side. So 12 is there -- 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 THE COURT: -- some thought that you were 15 afraid of the opponent just like you were of the 16 Court? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, we basically got to the 18 point where we felt like there really wasn't any 19 place to turn, there wasn't really any good road for 20 us to go down. We -- Mr. Minton was extremely 21 afraid of what the Court would do, very afraid of 22 what the Court would do, and -- and as I said, 23 hoping that Scientology would let him walk away from 24 this thing and not -- and, thereby, allowing him not 25 to have to go through what we're now going through. 441 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q How does Scientology have the ability to do 3 anything about something that you have stated under oath 4 that is a lie? I don't -- 5 A Well -- 6 Q Explain that to me, please. 7 A Okay. Because -- and I mean, you know, this was 8 probably incorrect, but our thinking was that -- sorry -- 9 our thinking was that if -- 10 Q I'm listening. 11 A Our thinking was that if we settled with 12 Scientology, then they would stop any further discovery into 13 either one of us, and the whole issue of us would just not 14 be a part of the case any more and we could just be free of 15 all of it. 16 Q Well, that is not worried about, what you have 17 already done. That is a fear about what may happen in the 18 future. Right? 19 A That is what we were -- that's what he was so 20 afraid of. He was afraid of what was going to happen with 21 Judge Schaeffer's order that he -- Mmm, you know, go back in 22 deposition. There was an ongoing, Mmm, situation before 23 Judge Baird. And he was very afraid of what was going to 24 happen in the future. That is what we were trying to deal 25 with. 442 1 THE COURT: Let's see if I understand this 2 correctly. And if I understand this correctly, you 3 thought that if the case were dropped, the 4 Scientology would not -- the Church would not pursue 5 any additional discovery and then, I guess, 6 therefore, there would be no need to reveal the 7 perjury. 8 THE WITNESS: Exactly, your Honor. But not -- 9 we weren't thinking that -- well, we didn't feel 10 that getting the case dropped was an option any 11 longer, but we were hoping that Scientology would 12 let us settle and thereby stop the discovery and 13 thereby get us out of this. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, what was it in that discovery that bothered 16 you? What specifically? 17 A Because Scientology kept asking questions about 18 the money and questions about these -- this agreement. 19 Every time he would go into deposition. 20 Q And nobody objected that those questions were 21 asked and answered? I mean, wasn't that -- 22 THE COURT: You know what, Counsel, she 23 explained this several times. If you think there 24 are other motives or reasons, get to it and ask her. 25 443 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q All right. Well, let me draw your attention to 3 this time line you did. I think this was Exhibit 4 4 yesterday, your Honor. And this was the time line we spoke 5 about. 6 Do you have a copy of it? 7 A Let's see. 8 MR. LIROT: Judge, we made some clean copies 9 off the website yesterday -- 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 MR. LIROT: -- and I -- 12 A No, I don't. 13 MR. LIROT: If I may approach, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 I read through this last night just a little 16 bit, but frankly, I didn't see any notes on my copy. 17 My copy just seemed to have pages penned in, so I 18 don't need another copy so -- 19 MR. LIROT: I'll give this one to the clerk 20 then. 21 THE COURT: What is that? I didn't have that. 22 MR. LIROT: This is the same thing, Judge, if I 23 could hand that to you. 24 What that is, your Honor, that is -- I guess it 25 depends on what the computer capability is. This is 444 1 just the text, and I guess that one has actually the 2 photographs. 3 But as I understand it, it's the same document. 4 THE COURT: Is this the one to be filed? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, please. 6 THE COURT: All right, Madam Clerk. 7 It's got a picture on it. 8 MR. LIROT: This one has a picture and I think 9 the text is identical. I don't know of any other 10 differences but -- 11 THE WITNESS: Mr. Lirot, mine is all cut off on 12 the side, the words are all cut off. It's not a 13 full copy. 14 THE COURT: Let me see this, Madam Clerk. So 15 is this one. 16 MR. LIROT: Well, then I guess we'll have to 17 give you another clean copy, Judge. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So is ours. 19 MR. LIROT: Let me have that one back and let 20 me take a look at it. 21 MR. FUGATE: It's on the side. The same thing. 22 MR. LIROT: Well, then, Judge, apparently I 23 don't have any explanation for this. 24 THE COURT: Is that just the first -- no, it's 25 all of the pages? 445 1 MR. LIROT: No, the whole thing is like that, 2 Judge. 3 THE COURT: Well, I can't give up mine because 4 I made notes on it and because I -- 5 MR. LIROT: No, that is the other one. The 6 other one should not be cut off. The one I 7 introduced yesterday should have the full text. 8 THE COURT: Let me see that one because I 9 didn't see any notes. So let's see what they 10 introduced yesterday. And I'll look it over. If 11 there aren't any notes -- 12 THE CLERK: Is that the one we were to get a 13 clean copy? We never got it. 14 THE COURT: You never got it? 15 THE CLERK: No. 16 THE COURT: Well, it's all right. You still 17 need to get a clean copy that has the -- 18 MR. LIROT: I will. Judge, during the break 19 I'll have a copy of the one that we handed up -- 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 MR. LIROT: -- copied in the law library. I'll 22 make sure we get a clean copy of that. I apologize. 23 THE COURT: Does Ms. Brooks have that one to 24 review for this questioning? Do you have -- 25 THE WITNESS: No, I only have the one that is 446 1 cut off. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- make sure, Judge, we are 3 talking about the same thing. 4 THE COURT: It's the same thing. 5 MR. LIROT: Let me just -- 6 MR. FUGATE: This is the one -- 7 MR. LIROT: 1 to 52; 51, 52? 8 MR. FUGATE: Yes, okay. 9 MR. LIROT: That is the one. 10 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, judge. 11 MR. LIROT: Judge, the document I'll be 12 referring to is hand-numbered -- 13 THE COURT: Do you have a copy for the witness? 14 MR. LIROT: 1 through 52. And this one has 15 pages 1 through 40. But as I understand it, this 16 has the full text. I'm just going to be referring 17 to the dates, Judge, so I'll hand this up to the 18 witness. I'll not be referring to any of the page 19 numbers. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 MR. LIROT: And I'll take this incomplete copy 22 back. 23 THE COURT: Maybe this isn't the same thing. 24 Mine ends with -- no, it's the same thing. Okay. 25 MR. LIROT: I apologize for the confusion, 447 1 Judge. I -- I'll approach. Every time you print 2 these off the computer, I guess it depends how the 3 margins are set and -- 4 THE COURT: Probably. 5 MR. LIROT: -- and a variety of other issues 6 there. 7 All right. So for the record, Judge, my 8 questions will be based on the document that we 9 provided yesterday, time line of Scientology's 10 harassment of Robert S. Minton and colleagues. 11 THE COURT: Which is what number? 12 MR. LIROT: I believe it was Number 4. Exhibit 13 4 yesterday. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. LIROT: And I think she authenticated this 16 and talked about it a little bit. 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Could I ask one question? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. WEINBERG: As I understand it, the witness 21 only has part of that exhibit now? 22 MR. LIROT: She has the whole exhibit. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you said she had 1 24 through 40. 25 MR. LIROT: It's the same exhibit. It's just 448 1 in a smaller type face. 2 THE WITNESS: But this is really different 3 because there is -- if you look at this, it looks 4 like things have been typed in separately. And this 5 is not readable and so it's not really the same. 6 THE COURT: Use my copy. Or, better yet, if 7 you all have more than one copy, I could have my own 8 copy. Do you have more than one? 9 MR. FUGATE: I have got the one -- yes, Judge. 10 THE COURT: All right. You let me have mine 11 back and they'll give you one. 12 THE WITNESS: All right. 13 MR. FUGATE: May I approach? Or -- 14 THE COURT: You may. 15 MR. LIROT: It is 1 through 52? 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I didn't look. So I'm 17 guilty as -- it's 1 through 52. 18 THE COURT: And that is the one I have. 19 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Mr. Fugate. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q All right, now, you have a copy of the time line 22 pages 1 through 52? 23 A Yes, I do. 24 Q We all have the same sheet music here. All right. 25 Now, you authored this document for a large part, 449 1 didn't you? 2 A For the most part, yes. 3 Q All right. And I guess there is an introduction 4 here that talks about Mr. Minton's, I guess, background and 5 his degree. And it says he has a bachelor of science, and 6 then talks about his interest in the Internet -- 7 THE COURT: Counselor, please. We don't need 8 to have you read something you have introduced into 9 evidence. So get whatever it is you want to get to. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right, on the bottom of the fourth paragraph, 12 the last sentence there where it says that with his first 13 public protest in Clearwater, he became -- he now came to 14 the attention of the Scientology's Office of Special 15 Affairs. 16 What is that? I think you describe it in the next 17 paragraph. 18 A Mmm, well, I think I describe it in the next 19 paragraph. 20 Q Well, why don't you tell the Court what it is, in 21 your own words? 22 A Office of Special Affairs is the part of 23 Scientology that I used to be a part of when I was in 24 Scientology for most of my career in Scientology. And it 25 has basically the -- its role is to deal with, you know, 450 1 basically all of the different -- well, basically its role 2 is to interface with various aspects of society for 3 Scientology, including the courts, the media -- well, 4 primarily the courts and the media, and -- and they also are 5 the part of Scientology that deals with, you know, critics 6 of Scientology, like I was -- like I was, or Mr. Minton, you 7 know. 8 I mean, they basically deal with everything that 9 would distract from what Scientology is supposed -- is 10 trying to do, you know, with their own people. Does that 11 make sense? 12 Q In this it says that OSA's methods include 13 harassment of the individual and his or her family and 14 associates. 15 Have you seen that happen? 16 A Yes. I think I described it yesterday. 17 Q And it says, "Causing the individual legal 18 problems in whatever ways possible. Isolating the 19 individual from family and friends and, where possible, by 20 either legal or illegal means, causing the individual to be 21 arrested." 22 Explain that to me. What instances of that did 23 you see? 24 A Illegal means, I'm not -- I'm not able to give you 25 examples of. Where are you reading from? I'm not -- 451 1 Q I'm at the bottom of the fifth paragraph, 2 basically in the middle. Three lines up, four lines up from 3 the bottom? 4 A Okay. I see that. I see that. 5 Q Did you write this part? 6 A Yes, I wrote the whole thing. 7 Q All right. Well, you continue on here, it says, 8 "Causing the individual to be arrested, tried and convicted 9 of criminal acts." Then it says, "By bringing about a 10 criminal conviction, Scientology would of course be able to 11 discredit the critic and thereby neutralize his or her 12 effectiveness." 13 Did you see that happen? 14 A I'm just trying to remember what I was thinking 15 about when -- when I wrote that. The last sentence -- 16 THE COURT: Let me ask you this. Did you think 17 that that might be what was going on with the Jesse 18 Prince arrest and prosecution? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: So would that be an example of what 21 you were referring to? 22 THE WITNESS: That would be an example. 23 THE COURT: Had Jesse Prince been convicted of 24 a felony and had he come in and been convicted, he 25 would come in and be asked have you ever been 452 1 convicted of a felony, and he would say yes and he 2 would be discredited? 3 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q What about Mr. Minton's arrest? Wasn't Mr. Minton 6 arrested here in Clearwater? 7 A Yes. Let me just add one thing. 8 The only thing that I would correct is that I 9 don't believe there was any illegal means used. 10 Yes, Mr. Minton was arrested. 11 THE COURT: So you are telling us now that you 12 don't believe in your printing here that you ever 13 saw the Church use illegal means to cause an 14 individual to be arrested, tried and convicted of 15 criminal acts? 16 THE WITNESS: No, I don't believe I did. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, in the next paragraph you began, and this is 19 on Page 2, it says, "In 1980, a number of high-ranking 20 Scientologists were themselves convicted of criminal conduct 21 as a result of illegal actions taken to silence critics." 22 What personal knowledge do you have of that? 23 A Oh, I was in Scientology when -- when this 24 happened, when the arrests -- when the convictions occurred. 25 My characterization of it as being the result of illegal 453 1 actions taken to silence critics was a little bit for the 2 purpose of this document that I was writing. 3 What actually happened was a number of people who 4 were in the guardian's office, which is what the Office of 5 Special Affairs -- what used to be -- what used to deal with 6 those same functions, Mmm, some of the people that were in 7 the guardian's office did commit illegal acts, breaking and 8 entering into government offices. It was part of a program 9 in which they were trying to correct what they considered to 10 be false reports in government files about Scientology. And 11 some of these people did -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, excuse me, I'm being 13 patient, but this affidavit describes this as 14 happening in 1980 and I don't know what the 15 relevance of it would be to this motion. And all 16 those people, as I understand it, were discharged 17 from the Church, so I don't know what the 18 relevance -- 19 THE COURT: Well, the relevance is if she 20 thought the Church would be pursuing Mr. Minton to 21 be arrested and -- and charged with a criminal act, 22 then that may be some motive for their actions, 23 which is what I believe he's trying to -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm only objecting to this 1980 25 reference to guardian's office because as I 454 1 understand it that is no longer -- hasn't been in 2 effect since 1980, and I don't know what relevance 3 it has to these proceedings. That is my objection. 4 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. 5 A This 1980 incident is sort of always what critics 6 of Scientology hold up as -- critics always kind of hold it 7 up as something that is like the same kinds of things that 8 are happening now in Scientology. That is -- that is why I 9 brought it up in this thing. I mean, you'll see that 10 brought up by -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I think you say the exact same thing at the bottom 13 of that paragraph? 14 A That it's the same -- 15 Q The Office of Special -- 16 A It -- 17 THE COURT: Wait, we can't have everybody 18 talking at the same time. So go on ahead, Counsel. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q It says, "However, the Office of Special Affairs 21 replaced the Guardian's Office, and evidence reveals that 22 the same tactics have continued uninterrupted to this day. 23 Mr. Minton will soon discover how relentless OSA can be." 24 You wrote that? 25 A I did. And you can see by that sentence, you 455 1 know, I was writing this to be as -- sorry -- I was writing 2 it to be as dramatic as I possibly could. And, you know, I 3 think I created quite a -- quite some drama here. 4 Q Well, I guess depending on which computer you use, 5 you have got 52 pages of entries here. Wouldn't you say 6 that that certainly shows that whatever -- whatever was 7 happening would certainly be justifiably called relentless? 8 A Yes, I'm just -- 9 Q I don't think that is a lot of editorial liberty, 10 are you? 11 A No, I'm just saying the way it is written is to 12 create the most dramatic effect possible. That is why I 13 brought up with regard -- the thing that happened in 1980. 14 I mean, I -- I realized that the people that committed those 15 crimes and were convicted of them were, I guess, discharged, 16 as Mr. Fugate said, and that -- you know, I mean, there 17 isn't anybody in Scientology that I know of that condoned 18 what those people did, but -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A But what I'm saying is critics used that as, you 21 know -- I mean, it was a really, really bad thing to happen, 22 and critics use it to paint Scientology in the worst 23 possible light. 24 Q You talk about, in the next paragraph, you talk 25 about Mr. Minton. And I think you make reference to 456 1 Mr. Minton provided -- I'm starting in the middle here of 2 the second paragraph on the page hand-numbered 2. 3 "Mr. Minton also provided financial assistance to 4 several Scientology critics, including Grady Ward, Keith 5 Hensen, Lawrence Wollersheim and Arnaldo Lerma, who had 6 become targets of Scientology's infamous 'Fair Game' 7 practices, in which anyone who is identified as an 'enemy' 8 can be tricked, sued, lied to or destroyed for the good of 9 Scientology." 10 What is the Fair Game practice or policy? 11 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, first of all, I object 12 to that because it's my understanding that that is 13 no longer -- that that was a writing that occurred 14 years ago and it was withdrawn. And I don't know 15 what her knowledge of it is in its current state, 16 and I would object to it on that basis. 17 THE COURT: Well, it is overruled because this 18 all goes to the right to cross-examine to see 19 whether or not this court will believe their 20 rationale for coming forward with this perjury, and 21 therefore whatever is in her mind is relevant. 22 Now, your objection, therefore, is overruled at 23 this time. 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm objecting for the record, 25 Judge. 457 1 THE COURT: All right. I understand. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What did you know about the Fair Game practice? 4 A Well -- 5 Q Let me ask you another question. What years were 6 you a member of Scientology? 7 A Mmm, from 1975 until 1989. 8 Q Okay. 9 THE COURT: I hate to do this, but, more 10 importantly, at the time you all were trying to work 11 something out with Scientology, at the time when 12 Mr. Minton was distraught and you were telling him 13 what you believed, what he believed, did you think 14 this Fair Game practice could be used against you 15 and Mr. Minton? 16 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I thought that what 17 Scientology was doing was using the legal system to 18 get us in as much trouble as they could. 19 THE COURT: I don't know what the Fair Game -- 20 is that the Fair Game policy? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, no, the Fair Game policy -- 22 and again, your Honor, you know, the Fair Game 23 policy is another thing that -- I mean, you have to 24 understand, you know, I was -- I was part of a group 25 of advocates. I was part of a group of very, 458 1 very -- Mmm, how do you say it -- you know, who had 2 a very clear agenda to destroy Scientology. 3 And Fair Game policy is another one of these 4 sort of buzz words that the critic community uses 5 and that I use a lot to paint Scientology in the 6 worst possible light. 7 What the Fair Game policy -- I mean, Mr. Fugate 8 is correct when he says that the policy itself is 9 cancelled back in the '60s sometime, but, you know, 10 anybody who is a critic of Scientology -- and when I 11 say critic of Scientology, I mean that is sort of a 12 broad term for this community of people who feel 13 very strongly that Scientology should be done away 14 with. 15 Fair Game is a term -- well, it is basically 16 what I say here, you know, that anybody who is a 17 critic of Scientology can be basically destroyed for 18 the good of Scientology. That is how critics feel 19 about it. 20 THE COURT: And even though -- I'm sorry, but 21 even though the policy itself has been undone, I 22 take it, and they say we don't do that anymore, we 23 don't have a Fair Game policy, if they ever had one, 24 in your mind and in Mr. Minton's mind, whether they 25 did away with it or not, that is what you feared -- 459 1 well, this is what you wrote, this is what you 2 feared would happen and continue to happen if you 3 didn't pull yourselves out of this litigation and 4 all of the other litigation? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. And -- and, Mmm, you know, 6 we basically came to feel that -- you know, we found 7 ourselves in such a terrible position because we -- 8 we -- and I -- and I really can't explain this to 9 you because we don't understand it -- but we were in 10 a situation where not only was Scientology closing 11 in on us legally, but the critic community had 12 totally turned against us, too. 13 There were very few people, really only a 14 handful of people any longer, who -- I just can't 15 begin to describe to you -- you know, we -- another 16 aspect of the reason Mr. Minton was so upset, and I 17 think he covered this in his affidavit, you may have 18 read about this -- but when he had told Mr. Dandar 19 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore, this 20 smear campaign had been launched against him and me 21 within the critic community. 22 THE COURT: And that is part of this, I read 23 part of it last night. 24 THE WITNESS: No, this isn't in the time line. 25 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Was that in something 460 1 else I read? 2 THE WITNESS: No. You did read some posts in 3 here, but these are not the ones I'm talking about. 4 Those were anonymous postings we believe were being 5 done by Scientologists. Whether they were being 6 done by Scientologists or not, I can't tell you. 7 They were anonymous posts. 8 But then what started happening was after he 9 stopped funding the case, Mmm, a lot of the critics 10 who were working with Mr. Dandar just totally turned 11 on Mr. Minton and me and really put us in a 12 situation where it was a worse attack against us 13 than even what was happening from Scientology or 14 what they had ever done. 15 And so we kind of found ourselves wondering, 16 why are we doing this anymore? You know, what's the 17 use? I mean, it really -- it really was the most 18 discouraging experience you could imagine. 19 And it caused us to start to wonder, really, if 20 we had been right about our feelings about 21 Scientology. And I think -- I think I would have to 22 say that the thing -- 23 THE COURT: I think you are well past the 24 answer to the question. 25 MR. LIROT: I think so, Judge. 461 1 THE WITNESS: But I just -- I just wanted to 2 say -- 3 MR. LIROT: May I approach? 4 THE WITNESS: -- that was probably the thing 5 that started us on this path more than anything 6 else. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let me hand you two pieces of documents here. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll give my copy to the 10 clerk. I think these would be Plaintiff's 8 and 9. 11 MR. FUGATE: Judge, these I would object to for 12 the very reason I stated before. I think this is 13 the policy and the cancellation, and I don't know 14 that it is relevant at all. 15 MR. LIROT: Well -- 16 THE COURT: Well, I -- 17 MR. MOXON: This is not the policy, your Honor. 18 I have to take diversion from Mr. Fugate because he 19 doesn't know. 20 MR. LIROT: We'll get into that, judge. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. MOXON: This is not a policy of the Church. 23 Except for the cancellation, Fair Game, it's the 24 kind of issue that I would like to address with you 25 in some detail. And obviously it's the kind of 462 1 thing Mr. Dandar would like to bring into this case 2 to cast dispersions on the Church because this 3 witness already testified even this term was 4 cancelled in the 1960s. 5 THE COURT: If that is an objection, Counsel, 6 you have made it and it is overruled. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Ms. Brooks, in your activities I guess as a 9 consultant or expert witness, you provided copies of the 10 Fair Game policy to attorneys working for clients that had 11 interests adverse to the Church, did you not? 12 A Yes. And I advised them to bring it up at every 13 opportunity with the Court. 14 Q Okay. Describe to me what -- Page 1 apparently is 15 entitled: "Hubbard Communication Office, Saint Hill Manor, 16 East Krinstead, Sussex." 17 A It is Grinstead. 18 Q Grinstead? I'm sorry. Tell me what that document 19 is. 20 THE COURT: Well now, Counsel, we just don't 21 need it. I can read it. I can see what it says, 22 and I'm about to sustain their objection. You are 23 not -- 24 MR. LIROT: All right. 25 THE COURT: -- doing what you need to do to 463 1 make this relevant to this case. If she doesn't 2 believe, despite the cancellation, that this policy 3 was still in effect, it has no relevancy. I think 4 she said that. So at this point in time I just 5 would move on. 6 MR. LIROT: All right. 7 THE COURT: I mean, the fact of the matter is 8 whatever the Fair Game policy is in writing, 9 whatever it was, it was cancelled. That is what 10 they said. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll explore that, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: All right. Then she said that the 13 critics didn't believe it. They still believed that 14 the very thing that the Fair Game policy was -- 15 anyone who is identified as an enemy can be tricked, 16 sued, lied to or destroyed for the good of 17 Scientology, that the critics still believe this is 18 exactly what occurred. 19 So that makes it relevant. I don't know if it 20 makes it relevant what it was or what the policy is 21 or whether this is it or whether it isn't it. 22 Okay. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Would you say that what you described in this time 25 line pretty well shows -- and I guess this spans from '96, 464 1 '97, to 2001, would you say that what is included in here 2 generally shows that whatever the Fair Game concept was, it 3 was still alive and well throughout your experience for 4 these matters that you have described in the time line? 5 A Well, that is certainly what I was trying to say. 6 Mmm, however, I would -- I have to tell you that I provided 7 this document to a number of people -- well, I should say 8 attorneys -- trying to get them to use my time line as -- as 9 evidence of Fair Game. And I wasn't able to convince them 10 that what was contained in my time line amounted to what I 11 described as Fair Game. 12 Q You weren't able to convince the attorneys that 13 what was in your time line amounted to -- 14 A To Fair Game. 15 Q Okay. Well, let me take a look at the time line 16 with you. If you'll turn to Page 3, I believe that -- I 17 draw your attention to where you have on the lower half of 18 the page marked 1997. 19 A Yes. 20 Q About -- apparently on September 16, '97, did you 21 write this one? Did you put in this entry? 22 A Yes, I did. 23 Q It says: "Mr. Minton received a telephone call 24 from Elliott Abelson, one of Scientology's attorneys, 25 inquiring about his health after the Clearwater protest he 465 1 had attended in March. Mr. Minton had visited the emergency 2 room at Massachusetts General Hospital after his return to 3 Boston." 4 It says, "Clearly, Mr. Abelson wanted Mr. Minton 5 to know that he knew about the visit, thereby letting 6 Mr. Minton know for the first time he was under surveillance 7 by Scientology. Mr. Abelson made subtle threats at 8 retaliation if Mr. Minton did not start helping 9 Scientology's critics." 10 Does that sound like Fair Game? 11 A Well, I think, you know, like I said, I was 12 writing this whole thing to try to make it all sound like 13 Fair Game. So yes, it all sounds like Fair Game. 14 Q All right. You think -- you think Mr. Abelson 15 called Mr. Minton at the hospital in Massachusetts to make 16 him feel better? 17 A No. I think Mr. Abelson called Mr. Minton to let 18 him know that he was now someone that Scientology was 19 watching. 20 Q And why -- 21 THE COURT: Excuse me just a minute so the 22 record is clear. Maybe this is true, but where is 23 it that you think in this September 16 that it says 24 that Mr. Minton was called at the hospital? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. He wasn't called at the 466 1 hospital. 2 THE COURT: I read that to assume it was after 3 he returned home he was called to say he was there. 4 Is that -- which is accurate? 5 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: The way I interpreted it? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q The next entry you have on October 10, it says -- 10 THE COURT: What that has to do with this case, 11 is it in your mind and in Mr. Minton's mind, as you 12 all discussed this, so you don't know that this was 13 true as to what he thought -- you don't have to say 14 that. But assuming you and he discussed it, in your 15 mind you thought that Mr. Minton was under 16 surveillance? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: And I suppose that that is 19 something you were trying to get -- you were coming 20 forward to try to get that to go away? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Ms. Brooks, you have an entry for -- 24 THE COURT: And to make it clear, you do 25 believe that? 467 1 THE WITNESS: I do believe? 2 THE COURT: That Mr. Minton was under 3 surveillance by the Church of Scientology or 4 somebody working for them? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do. But, you know, your 6 Honor, I point out, I have been -- I have been doing 7 this work since 1993. This whole -- 8 THE COURT: It doesn't really matter whether it 9 is true or not. In other words, we're -- I think 10 what he's trying to explore is motives and what have 11 you. 12 THE WITNESS: I understand. 13 THE COURT: And whether or not what you are 14 saying now is true, or what you said was -- what you 15 are saying now as perjured was true, that is what 16 this hearing is sort of about. 17 THE WITNESS: I understand. 18 THE COURT: So it is what you thought, not 19 necessarily what is accurate. When you make your 20 objections, I think your objections are sometimes 21 made on the basis that is not so. It is all what 22 this lady's mind is, what her mind-set is. 23 MR. FUGATE: Judge, let me make myself clear. 24 I don't want to interfere in your ability to judge 25 her credibility. I just want to make objections 468 1 such as to Fair Game and the cancellation -- 2 THE COURT: I understand and I have no problem. 3 I'm just trying to explain to you that at certain 4 times certain objections you make might be 5 well-founded, and in this hearing everything has to 6 do with what was in her mind when she came forward 7 to make this settlement. And so it's what she 8 believed. 9 I mean, I'm not trying to suggest when I ask 10 her if you believe that, that the Church was or 11 wasn't surveilling her. It's just what she 12 believed. 13 MR. FUGATE: I -- I understand that, your 14 Honor. 15 THE COURT: And whether Fair Game was cancelled 16 or whether it wasn't cancelled, if she knew of the 17 policy and it's what she described, whether she 18 believed that that is what could and would happen if 19 they didn't back off. So I just -- just so I'm 20 clear as to why I'm letting this stuff in, okay? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I might just make 22 one final comment on what you are saying. Mmm, I 23 have been doing this work as -- basically as a paid 24 critic since 1993. And, you know, obviously I 25 wasn't frightened enough of Scientology to quit for 469 1 the last nine years. 2 What Scientology -- you know, the things that 3 are contained in this time line were not things that 4 were causing either Mr. Minton or me to want to stop 5 doing this work. 6 What caused Mr. Minton and me to stop wanting 7 to do this work is what has happened to us as a 8 result of this wrongful death case. And the perjury 9 that was about to get us both what we believed to be 10 in jail. 11 THE COURT: I understand that. And I 12 understand it clearly from what you have testified 13 to and what your affidavit said, that that is your 14 testimony. They obviously -- by they, I mean the 15 opposition in this hearing -- do not believe that. 16 And so they are exploring the truthfulness of that 17 in the way that -- that they believe. And -- 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- excuse me. I think they 19 do believe it. And I think they are trying to 20 disprove it. 21 THE COURT: Well, and I'm telling you that they 22 don't, so -- 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Let me draw your attention back to that second 25 page, the cancellation of Fair Game. 470 1 MR. FUGATE: Which page? 2 MR. LIROT: This is the second page of Exhibit 3 Number 9. 4 MR. FUGATE: Of the affidavit? 5 MR. LIROT: Not of the affidavit. It says 6 cancellation of Fair Game. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And I guess the argument is that the policy was 9 cancelled or you said that the policy was cancelled, the 10 practice was cancelled? 11 A I think Mr. Fugate is the one that said that. 12 Q Well, your testimony was that it was cancelled or 13 disbanded or done away with and the critics just kept 14 focusing on it. Is that your testimony? 15 A Well, I -- I should say that I -- when I was in 16 Scientology, I never seen this. I didn't see it until after 17 I got out. And I began to use that policy. I was very 18 happy when I found it. And I used it beginning in 1993 when 19 I began to do this work in litigation. It clearly paints 20 Scientology in an extremely bad light. 21 Q Well, what I think it says, just that. I need to 22 ask you some questions based on your experience, and I guess 23 it says, "Cancellation of Fair Game. The practice of 24 declaring people Fair Game will cease. Fair Game may not 25 appear on any ethics order. It causes bad public 471 1 relations." I think that speaks for itself. But it says, 2 "This PL does not cancel any policy on the treatment or 3 handling of an SP." 4 What is a PL? 5 A That means policy letter. 6 Q Okay. So, "This policy letter does not cancel any 7 policy on the treatment or handling of an SP." What is an 8 SP? 9 A That is a suppressive person. In Scientology, the 10 belief is that there are people who are -- well, are 11 basically out to destroy other people or -- 12 Q SP -- 13 A You know, that there are people that are very 14 destructive. 15 Q Well, is an SP anybody that takes any stance 16 adverse to Scientology? 17 A Mmm, I -- I think that is a little bit too broad. 18 I mean, as a critic, that is how I described it. But I 19 think that is not really quite accurate. 20 THE COURT: Would you be an SP? Would you be 21 considered by the Church of Scientology an SP? 22 THE WITNESS: I think they have considered me 23 to be one. 24 THE COURT: Would Mr. Minton be considered to 25 be an SP? 472 1 THE WITNESS: I think he would have been. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q What were those policies on the treatment of 4 handling SPs that weren't cancelled? 5 A There is a whole stack of policies. I mean, where 6 do you want me to start? You know. 7 Q Well, I guess -- 8 MR. MOXON: Object, your Honor. Apparently he 9 wants to get into her interpretation of religious 10 policies now. 11 THE COURT: Overruled. This is what she 12 thought. This is all under her motive for coming 13 forward and saying what she has said. He's 14 exploring it and he's going to be allowed to explore 15 it. Overruled. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q So an SP is a suppressive person? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And I guess there is a thick packet of policies on 20 the treatment and handling of suppressive persons? 21 A Well, I'm just saying there are many, many 22 policies in Scientology that talk about -- sorry -- about 23 suppressive people. 24 Q And -- 25 A I think -- 473 1 THE COURT: I'm going crazy here. I'm doing 2 the best that I can. And I'm just trying to be as 3 patient as I can, and I jump on Mr. Fugate all of 4 the time about this. You need to move into the 5 issues here. I can't do your work for you. But I 6 could roll this thing along and I could be done with 7 this witness in an hour. I could have been done 8 with their side in an hour, too. This is not a 9 discovery proceeding. 10 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 11 THE COURT: I'm not going to conduct a 12 discovery proceeding. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand. 14 THE COURT: I want you to get to the issues. I 15 know what the issues are. My God, I'm sitting up 16 here, I could ask the questions myself. Get to it. 17 MR. LIROT: All right. I'll get to it. 18 THE COURT: I mean, if you think I'm going to 19 sit here and go through a stack of stuff this big 20 already in the record somewhere, I have seen them 21 before. 22 I mean, the long and short of it is this lady 23 believed what she wrote in here. She thought it was 24 accurate. She was scared. She was as scared of 25 them as she was of me, and she wanted to settle it 474 1 with them and with me and with Baird. And you need 2 to get down to why she was afraid of them, if she 3 was, what was really going on in her head. Get to 4 it. 5 MR. LIROT: All right, I'll get to it. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Now, one question. Mr. Dandar, was he deemed an 8 SP? Would he meet the characteristics to be a suppressive 9 person? 10 A Well, you are asking me to speculate what 11 Scientology was labeling people. But I would imagine that 12 they would have considered him to be suppressive of 13 Scientology, yes. 14 Q And basically that meant all those policies and 15 treatment that they had against SPs could be used against 16 Mr. Dandar? 17 MR. FUGATE: Objection. 18 MR. MOXON: Objection. 19 A Let's qualify -- 20 THE COURT: Overruled. 21 A But let me just clarify something here. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q It's just a yes or no question. 24 THE COURT: I think it is. 25 THE WITNESS: What? 475 1 THE COURT: Well, I mean, I don't know but 2 that -- 3 THE WITNESS: Well, what I was going to say, 4 your Honor, is the treatment and handling of an SP, 5 for the most part what this is referring to is 6 procedures to bring a person out of that destructive 7 state of mind. There are some policies which are 8 strictly for the Office of Special Affairs where, 9 you know, they are supposed to investigate a person 10 for criminal background and expose their criminal 11 background or things like that. 12 But I just want to clarify -- and this is 13 certainly not the way -- the way I have ever 14 described it when I was working for people who were 15 on the other side of Scientology -- but what this 16 policy is actually talking about is the treatment or 17 handling of an SP. There is a lot of, you know, 18 tech, technology, in Scientology about the treatment 19 of an SP. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, I'm not particularly worried about the tech. 22 I'm worried about the -- 23 A Right, I understand. 24 Q -- the acts -- 25 A I understand that. 476 1 Q The Judge's admonition is something I'm going to 2 bring close to heart. 3 A I'm just clarifying. 4 Q Let me bring you back to the time line. 5 A I'm just clarifying what the policies are talking 6 about. 7 Q Let's explore the policies as I think they may be 8 manifest in your time line. You have an entry here on 9 October 14 that -- "October 14, 1997, Mr. Minton received a 10 call himself from Mary Frances Newey. She threatened that 11 Scientology was prepared to attack him in a number of areas 12 if he didn't stop lending his support to the critics of 13 Scientology. She told him he would be attacked in the 14 following areas: family, children, ex-wife, ex-business 15 partners, state and federal taxes." 16 What do you know about that allegation? 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say Page 14? 18 THE WITNESS: No. No. No. 19 MR. LIROT: Page 3, October 14, 1997. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 A That is what he told me. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And he told you that is what Miss Newey told him, 24 that he was going to be attacked in those areas? 25 A Yes. 477 1 Q It seems to me that -- and at that time was there 2 any perjury that anybody was concerned with? Had there been 3 any depositions given or any -- any statements made by -- 4 A No. 5 Q -- about any agreement? 6 A Not at that time. 7 Q At that point there is already some concern on 8 Mr. Minton's part in these areas that are designated. 9 Right? Family, children, ex-wife? 10 A Well -- 11 Q He believes that. Right? 12 A Well, he -- he -- he did receive a phone call. 13 But he wasn't afraid. 14 Q I'm not asking if he was afraid. 15 A I thought that is what you said. 16 Q I'm just asking if a threat was made? 17 A A threat was made, but it didn't frighten him. 18 Q Now, the next entry on the next page, I have some 19 concerns on Page 4. You have October '97, and I think it 20 talks about Mr. Minton contacting you and -- and your 21 husband at that time, Vaughn. And then the fourth line 22 down, the first sentence says, "Through anonymous telephone 23 calls, Scientology operatives had nearly succeeded in having 24 the Youngs evicted from their house and their rescued cats 25 confiscated and killed." You didn't mention a thing about 478 1 that yesterday. 2 A That is what I was talking about when I said there 3 was an anonymous -- campaign of anonymous phone calls to 4 animal control. That didn't work. Then there was -- then 5 it was switched over to anonymous phone calls to zoning, and 6 that did succeed in having our landlord tell us that we 7 would either have to get rid of all of the cats, or we would 8 be evicted. So -- so -- 9 Q You didn't say anything about the cats being 10 killed yesterday. 11 A Well, that was what I was afraid was going to 12 happen. But, I mean, you know, I'm not saying anything 13 different than what I said here. 14 Q You didn't mention that at all yesterday. 15 A I said -- 16 Q You -- 17 A I described -- 18 THE COURT: Counselor, make the argument to me, 19 not to this witness. 20 MR. LIROT: All right. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q What was the 60 Minutes expose you talk about in 23 this paragraph? 24 A I was interviewed on -- for a 60 Minutes segment 25 that aired in December of '97. It was about Scientology, 479 1 and I was interviewed as a critic of Scientology. 2 Q And did Scientology -- were they happy about that? 3 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 4 A No. I wouldn't assume they were. It was critical 5 segment -- it was critical of Scientology. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. What did they try to do -- what did 8 they do to you to try to get you not to appear on 60 9 Minutes? 10 A Well, I felt like all of this harassment was 11 because of that. 12 Q Well, what harassment? I mean, what did they do 13 to you to get you not to appear on 60 Minutes in a position 14 that was critical to Scientology? What did they do to you? 15 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor, vague. 16 Vague. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What did the Church -- 19 THE COURT: Counselor, you know better than 20 that. When there is an objection, please give me 21 the opportunity to rule. 22 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. 24 A Mmm, they didn't do anything that stopped the 25 show. I didn't cancel my interview, and the show aired. 480 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q That is not responsive to my question. 3 A Well, you just asked me, what did they do to stop 4 the show. 5 Q What did they do to you to get you not to appear 6 on the show? Obviously you appeared on the show? 7 A Right. 8 Q What, if anything, did they do to you to try to 9 stop that from happening? 10 A Well, it was my feeling at that time this whole 11 campaign, these anonymous phone calls, were being done by 12 Scientologists in an effort to silence me. That is how I 13 felt at the time. It didn't work. 14 Q Did anybody specifically tell you that? 15 A No. 16 Q This was just a big coincidence to you? 17 A No. 18 THE COURT: This is what she believed, 19 Counselor. She just gave you the testimony you 20 need. When you get it, move on. 21 MR. LIROT: All right. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Now, you talk on November 18, I guess, something 24 about statements made by Mr. Abelson. And I guess it talks 25 about in here, on the fifth line down, it says, "Mr. Abelson 481 1 went to state that: Association with lawbreakers such as 2 these, combined with the monetary demands that inevitably 3 accompany their involvement or similar fertile --" 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't know where you 5 are reading. 6 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, in November 18. 7 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 8 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to jump ahead. 9 THE WITNESS: It is here (indicating). 10 THE COURT: Thanks. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I think the gist of this paragraph is they are 13 accusing Mr. Minton of fostering some climate of hatred, and 14 I guess they talk about threatening him with lawsuits and 15 things like that. 16 Did you believe all that to be true? 17 A Where is the threat of lawsuits? 18 THE COURT: You know, I guess I'm just 19 confused, Counselor, and I'm going to take a break 20 because I'm frustrated. This lady has said that she 21 believed this when she wrote it. And that, 22 therefore, you have this whole document in and you 23 can refer to it anyplace, anytime you want to. 24 I just don't get it. Why are we going through 25 each one of these things to see if she's going to 482 1 admit that she already admitted unless you want her 2 to expand on something? 3 MR. LIROT: There are some things I want her to 4 expand on. 5 THE COURT: Well, okay. 6 MR. LIROT: All right. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let me jump ahead a little bit here. 9 THE COURT: I don't mean to push you. I 10 understand this is very serious. And I'm sorry. It 11 just seems as if you had this whole document in, and 12 that she has basically stated at the time she wrote 13 it she believed it to be accurate. And I just don't 14 know why you couldn't use it for any purpose that 15 you might want to use it. 16 So I guess I'm a touch frustrated, but I don't 17 mean to suggest you are going to annoy me enough 18 that you can't do what you want to do. It's your 19 cross-examination. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't want you to be 21 frustrated. 22 THE COURT: I'm trying not to be. I'm going to 23 lay back here and meditate and -- that is not true 24 because I'm not meditating. 25 483 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Let me fast-forward you to December 9, 1997 on 3 Page 5. 4 THE COURT: Oh, that is speed. 5 MR. MOXON: Slow forward. 6 THE COURT: That's right. We'll call that let 7 us inch along here. All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q At this blinding pace here -- 10 THE COURT: Right pace. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q It says the possible -- 13 THE COURT: Tell us where we are. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm on -- 15 THE COURT: You know where we are. 16 MR. LIROT: December 9, 1997, I'm on the second 17 entry, Judge -- 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q -- Church officials. It says, "The Boston Globe 21 printed an article entitled --" 22 THE COURT: You are doing realtime, so when you 23 have something you can read, you go real fast, but 24 it's very hard for her to take down. 25 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 484 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q "The Boston Globe printed an article entitled 3 'Gifts of cash fuel battle of principle' by Diego 4 Ribadeneira." It says, "The article stated, "Church 5 officials acknowledged that they have conducted their own 6 investigation into Minton's funding practices." 7 What was the investigation into Minton's funding 8 practices? What do you know about that? 9 A Mmm, I hardly met Mr. Minton at that point. I am 10 not real sure. 11 Q All right. Well, throughout this entire document 12 it seemed to me that a lot of the things that you talk 13 about, there are statements about dead cats on people's 14 doorsteps and picketing and fliers. And it looks to me like 15 there was almost an unrelenting attempt to place fliers 16 everyplace that Mr. Minton frequented, contact -- 17 MR. FUGATE: I'll just object to that as 18 argumentative. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. Plus it sounds like 20 testimony. 21 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll back up a little bit. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q There are several entries in here that talk about 24 the Church's investigation into Mr. Minton's financial 25 practices. Isn't that correct? 485 1 A Yes. 2 Q All right. I think -- 3 A Well, specifically work that he did in the late 4 '80s and early '90s before he retired. 5 Q All right. And I guess my question would be that 6 you have all these entries. Now, you met Mr. Minton when? 7 A Mmm -- 8 Q When does your personal relationship with him 9 start to the point we can figure out how close you are to 10 these facts? Because I take it before you became 11 intensively involved with Mr. Minton most of this is just 12 based on what he provided to you? 13 A Or -- 14 MR. FUGATE: Those are multiple questions 15 there. I object. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What date did you become involved with Mr. Minton? 19 A Mmm, I would say by the late spring of '98, I had 20 more of the direct knowledge. 21 Q And throughout this period of time, was -- you 22 know, from that time to the end of this time line, was it 23 your belief that Mr. Minton had private investigators 24 following him almost all of the time that had some 25 relationship with the Church of Scientology? 486 1 A Yes. 2 Q I think -- 3 A I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I missed the time frame 4 you're talking about. 5 Q From the time line, the span of this time line. 6 A Mmm, well -- 7 MR. LIEBERMAN: That wasn't the question. 8 A -- probably not the span of the time line. But 9 for a good part of it. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So were you followed by private investigators? 12 A I felt that I was. 13 Q Do you have any specific information or -- or were 14 there any overt acts that gave you an indication to believe 15 you were being followed? 16 A Well, for example, when I worked at the LMT, one 17 night I drove to my house and as I pulled my car into the 18 garage a process server swooped into my driveway and blocked 19 my car and served me papers, leading me to feel that he had 20 been sitting there waiting for me to come home. You know, 21 stuff like that. 22 Q Let me draw your attention to Page 7, the entry 23 next to last, January 23rd, 1998. It says, "Scientology 24 private investigators and OSA operatives launched a campaign 25 to harass and intimidate Mr. Minton's friends and former 487 1 business associates not only in the United States but also 2 in England, Turkey, Brazil, Nigeria, Switzerland, South 3 Africa and Hong Kong. This campaign would continue over the 4 next three years and would result in further isolating 5 Mr. Minton from his friends and associates." 6 How did that work? What led you to put that entry 7 in there? 8 A There was a private investigator who I believe was 9 based in London who was contacting Mr. Minton's friends and 10 business -- former business associates and interviewing them 11 for information about Mr. Minton, you know. I had reason to 12 believe -- he had reason to believe and told me -- that 13 people had been contacted in those different countries as 14 part of this investigation of Mr. Minton. 15 Q And what led you to put that in there? 16 A Well, what do you mean? 17 Q I mean, how extensive was this investigation? How 18 many -- how many private investigators are we talking about 19 here? 20 A We didn't know. We weren't sure. But it seemed 21 to be a team of them. 22 Q And they contacted all of Mr. Minton's business 23 associates? 24 A Well, a number of them. 25 Q And they contacted his wife -- it appears to be 488 1 all over the world, followed his wife everywhere she went, 2 Spain, England? 3 A Mmm, yeah. He felt that she was being followed. 4 She was -- she was in England at one point and was -- and a 5 letter was hand-delivered to her to the house where she was 6 staying. 7 Q So it was more than a feeling. There was clear 8 indication that they were following his family all over the 9 world; they're talking to his business partners all over the 10 world. Isn't that all true? 11 A Oh, I didn't -- 12 MR. MOXON: Objection, your Honor. I assume 13 for all of these questions that everything that 14 doesn't include personal knowledge, it's all 15 speculation, her belief? Obviously every question 16 calls for hearsay and speculation and -- 17 THE COURT: It has to do with her belief, that 18 is right. And really hers and Mr. Minton's, if, in 19 fact, they discussed it and she knows this is one of 20 the things that concerned him. 21 MR. MOXON: I object then on hearsay as to what 22 she believes his belief is. 23 THE COURT: Well, since her belief is what the 24 issue here is as far as what her state of mind was 25 when she made this statement -- these statements, 489 1 that is overruled. 2 A To answer your question, I don't -- I didn't mean 3 to imply that it was just a feeling. We were -- Mr. Minton 4 was very angry about it and so was I. It certainly didn't 5 frighten us. It angered us. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. Let me draw your attention to Page 8 8 and the entry on the -- the last entry on that page. I'm 9 going to draw your attention four lines from the bottom -- 10 five lines. I guess you typed this statement. It says, "By 11 now Scientology was publishing outrageous lies about 12 Mr. Minton in an attempt to goad him into filing suit 13 against them." 14 THE COURT: It says "apparently," right? 15 MR. LIROT: Yes, that is correct, Judge. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q "By now Scientology was publishing outrageous lies 18 about Mr. Minton, apparently in an attempt to goad him into 19 filing suit against them. However, several experienced 20 attorneys advised Mr. Minton not to sue as Scientology would 21 use the litigation to further harass him and exhaust his 22 financial resources, ultimately forcing him to cease his 23 outspoken criticism." 24 Is that what happened here? Is it -- is it -- 25 A What? 490 1 Q -- is Mr. Minton -- are you and Mr. Minton trying 2 to get this resolved so that he doesn't lose his money? 3 A No. In fact -- in fact, I would have to say that 4 at every -- every time -- each one of these entries 5 represents an incident or an experience that -- that had the 6 absolute opposite effect on us from -- from getting us to 7 want to stop this work. 8 Every time something happened it made us -- and 9 Mr. Minton for sure -- angrier and angrier, and he -- and he 10 became absolutely -- he absolutely wanted more and more and 11 more to go after Scientology because -- as a result of all 12 of the things that I'm talking about in here. 13 You know, it did not have the effect of 14 frightening him, and it didn't have the effect of 15 frightening me, and it is not how come we are now recanting 16 our perjury. 17 Q I understand that is your statement. But let me 18 draw your attention to Page 10. Your entry for May and July 19 of 1998. The lower half of the page. It says, "From May to 20 July 1998 Mr. Minton had a series of three meetings 21 totalling 15 hours with two of the top leaders of 22 Scientology. He hoped to enter into a dialogue about ending 23 Scientology's criminal conduct, including fraud, practicing 24 medicine without a license, child abuse and human rights 25 violations. 491 1 "He met with Mike Rinder, the head of OSA 2 International, and Marty Rathbun, head of the Religious 3 Technology Center and second in command of Scientology under 4 its dictator, David Miscavige. Unfortunately, the 5 Scientologists had no interest in discussing their criminal 6 conduct. Their interest was solely to convince Mr. Minton 7 to stop providing funds to Scientology critics. They told 8 Mr. Minton point-blank that if he would quit giving 9 financial support to critics, Scientology would stop 10 harassing and intimidating Mr. Minton and his friends and 11 family. 12 "At the end of the third meeting, Mr. Minton made 13 it clear he would not stop his financial support until 14 Scientology ceased destroying peoples' lives through fraud 15 and criminal abuse. In response, the Scientologists 16 intensified their campaign against him." 17 Were you in any of those meetings with Mr. Minton? 18 A Yes, I was at the first one. 19 Q All right. Tell me about that meeting. Where did 20 it take place? 21 A In Los Angeles. At -- at a building called the 22 Manor, where the Celebrity Center is. 23 Q I take it this happened between May and July of 24 '98. Was this in May of 1998? 25 A Mmm, the one I went to was in May. Yeah. 492 1 Q All right. Who set up the meeting? 2 A Mmm, Mr. Minton. 3 Q All right. And how did he get in touch with the 4 people that attended the meeting? 5 A Mmm, I think he called Mr. Rinder, if I'm not 6 mistaken. I don't remember exactly. 7 Q What was -- what was his desire in calling these 8 meetings? 9 A Mmm -- 10 THE COURT: Go ahead. 11 THE WITNESS: Me? 12 THE COURT: No, I would wonder why we wouldn't 13 be talking about the meetings involved in this case, 14 though, rather than meetings in 1998. She already 15 indicated this is what she -- I mean -- I mean, what 16 is it we're trying to gain out of this, this 17 questioning regarding this? 18 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think there is a 19 pattern here that has developed. 20 THE COURT: All right. 21 THE WITNESS: Oh, do you think that those 22 meetings were an attempt to settle? That is not 23 true. Mr. Minton kind of considered himself at that 24 time to be a spokesman for the critic community. 25 And he thought that it would be useful to sit down 493 1 with the leaders of the Scientology and basically 2 communicate a list of the critics' grievances and 3 try to have dialogue with them about these things. 4 It certainly wasn't anything to do with -- I 5 mean, absolutely -- that is not the reason these 6 meetings happened was for any kind of attempt on 7 Mr. Minton's part to settle with Scientology. In 8 fact -- 9 THE COURT: You have responded. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Let me draw your attention to August 24, 1998, on 13 Page 13. And the last full paragraph on Page 13. It says, 14 "In one of the first indications that Scientology -- that 15 Scientology was investigating Mr. Minton's work in Nigeria, 16 the flier stated: 'Minton and Smith did business in 17 Nigeria. Minton made a lot of his money, he says, by 18 helping the country's dictatorial leaderships to 19 successfully default on multi-million dollar loans. 20 Everyone with the inside knowledge benefited but as events 21 and statistics showed, the people suffered. While millions 22 were siphoned off in 'commissions' and lenders had to write 23 off huge losses, the leaders of the country completely 24 ignored the human suffering and misery of its citizens. Is 25 this how a man of principal acts?" 494 1 What indications did Mr. Minton relate to you 2 about the Church checking into any of his financial 3 dealings? 4 A Mmm, well, I think I just said before that there 5 was an investigation in which, you know, people that he 6 worked with were interviewed -- or contacted, you know, 7 things like that. 8 Q Well, on Page 16 you talk about on September 28, 9 1998, about Mr. Franks' meeting with Mr. Smith. Who is 10 Mr. Smith? 11 A He was one of Mr. Minton's former partners. 12 THE COURT: You have gone ahead of me now. 13 Page 16 is what? 14 MR. LIROT: Page 16 on the top, Judge. 15 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q September 28, 1998. It says, "Peter Franks, a 18 British private investigator hired by Scientology, spread 19 the word to many of Therese Minton's friends in England and 20 to Mr. Minton's former business partner, Jeff Schmidt, 21 that --" 22 A It is Therese. 23 Q Therese, I'm sorry "-- that Therese, the Mintons' 24 two daughters, and Mr. Schmidt were going to be followed in 25 order to bring pressure on Mr. Minton to stop his policies 495 1 concerning Scientology." 2 What happened to make you put that statement in 3 there? 4 A Well, I think it speaks for itself. It certainly 5 infuriated Mr. Minton and Therese. And it -- it had the 6 opposite effect on Mr. Minton, I can assure you. 7 Q It says in the next paragraph that Mr. Schmidt's 8 office had been picketed and leafletted at this point for 9 several weeks. How many locations were picketed? This time 10 line, that you can recall? If you could just give me a 11 list, because obviously the Judge will not be patient with 12 me asking about every one of them. 13 A You mean by us or by Scientology? 14 Q By Scientology. 15 A Oh. Well, they were kind of picketing in 16 retaliation of our picketing, as far as I could tell. Every 17 time Mr. Minton would picket, then they would picket. You 18 know, it was like Judge Penick called it, picket -- 19 THE COURT: What -- 20 A I think Judge Penick called it picket chicken. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Did you picket in England? 23 THE COURT: I might call it counterproductive 24 to both sides. 25 THE WITNESS: I think I would agree with you on 496 1 that, your Honor. I never did like that 2 picketing -- 3 THE COURT: I don't think it speaks well for 4 anybody, to tell you the truth. 5 THE WITNESS: Neither do I. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Did you -- did you ever picket in England? Did 8 Mr. Minton ever picket in England? 9 A No, not in England. This is Jeff Schmidt's house 10 in New Hampshire. 11 Q So all of the pickets and leaflets and fliers and 12 all of the rest of that was all isolated to the United 13 States? 14 A Mmm, I think there was some fliers handed out when 15 we were in Germany. 16 Q Well, it appears here that there were some times 17 where that Mr. Minton's -- I guess the farmhouse would be 18 picketed or that -- 19 A Yes. 20 Q -- you would be harassed for days on end? 21 THE COURT: Are you trying to get the lady to 22 say one of the things she wanted to do was get 23 Scientology off her back? I think she would say 24 that. 25 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge -- 497 1 THE COURT: If that is what your point is. So 2 you are able to lead here. You can lead, suggest 3 the answers and see if you can get it. If you 4 can't, you can move right on. 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm really -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you know, go ahead. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q I want to draw your attention to the second 9 paragraph of September 28, 1998. It says, "Mr. Schmidt's 10 office had been picketed and leafletted at this point for 11 several weeks, as had his home where his wife and children 12 were there. Franks threatened to go after Mr. Schmidt's 13 clients, one of which was the Nigerian government. 14 "Franks said they would arrange picketing of the 15 Nigerian delegation to the International Monetary Fund 16 meeting in Washington, D.C. which was set for October 4 17 through 8 of next month. Franks promised Mr. Schmidt would 18 be caught in a web of IRS tax investigation of Mr. Minton 19 and in his own problems with the England Revenue Service, 20 England's equivalent of the IRS." 21 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I missed what you were 22 reading from. I didn't want to interrupt you. Tell 23 me the page. 24 MR. LIROT: Page 16, second paragraph under the 25 September 28, 1998 heading. 498 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q The Church oftentimes would threaten Mr. Minton 4 with IRS investigations. Is that correct? 5 A Mmm, well, the -- what was happening was more 6 like -- 7 THE COURT: Now, that needs to be a yes or no, 8 ma'am. 9 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. 10 A No. But I can explain if you want me to. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, it seems the time line statement seems a 13 little different than that answer. You can explain. 14 A Well, this -- this guy Franks was really nasty, 15 and he was going around threatening all kinds of things. 16 And it just infuriated Mr. Minton. 17 Q What kind of things was he threatening? 18 A Well, like it says here. You know, what you just 19 read. 20 Q IRS tax investigation? 21 A Oh, that. Mmm, you know, this thing about he was 22 going to go after Mr. Schmidt's clients, that they were 23 going to -- you know, go after the Nigerian government to 24 stop his work with them. I mean -- 25 THE COURT: What was his work with the Nigerian 499 1 government? 2 THE WITNESS: Mr. Schmidt? 3 THE COURT: No, Mr. Minton. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, well, Mr. Minton is retired. 5 But -- and this stuff that he's talking about here 6 for the September 28 thing that I wrote had to do 7 with Mr. Schmidt's work. 8 THE COURT: I see. Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: And, you know, it's some sort of 10 financial work. I don't know exactly. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, wasn't there a debate at some point in time 13 about Mr. Minton's involvement with the Nigerian government? 14 A Yeah. That -- I don't know where that entry is. 15 Oh, I think it was -- 16 Q It's on Page. 30, it looks like June 11, 2000 on 17 Page 30? 18 A Yes, it was in the summer of 2000. Yes, there 19 was. There was a big -- it wasn't -- it wasn't exactly a 20 debate. It was -- it was -- Mmm, it was an opportunity for 21 Mr. Minton -- he was invited to address a number of people 22 at Howard University about the whole Nigeria thing because 23 this big report had come out accusing Mr. Minton of a lot 24 of -- well, criminal stuff, basically that wasn't true, and 25 he went to -- and talked with all these people and gave them 500 1 all kinds of documents and explained the work and all that 2 kind of stuff. 3 Q But they were threatening Mr. Minton about 4 criminal transactions involving international monetary 5 exchanges and things like that? 6 A No, they weren't threatening. They were accusing 7 it. They were saying it. They weren't threatening. 8 Q They were accusing him and threatening him to take 9 action, right? 10 A No. They were taking action. I mean, it wasn't 11 threats. It was happening. 12 THE COURT: Who is they there? Who is the 13 they? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, people that were working 15 for Scientology is what we thought. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Let me draw your attention to Page 32, the 19 June 23rd -- 20 THE COURT: What action were they taking about 21 this? 22 THE WITNESS: Well -- 23 THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel, just for a 24 second. 25 THE WITNESS: First of all, they had -- I mean, 501 1 we have reason to believe that it was Scientology, 2 so I'll just put it in those terms. But, you know, 3 there had been this whole investigation that had 4 been going on about Mr. Minton, like we talked 5 about, you know, where people were interviewed and 6 stuff like that. And then this whole big report was 7 put together by this guy John Fashanu in which 8 Mr. Minton was implicated in things that -- criminal 9 things that the dictator of Nigeria, Abacha, had 10 done. But Mr. Minton's work was over before Abacha 11 ever came to power. So Mr. Minton was trying to set 12 the record straight on all this stuff when he went 13 to Howard University. 14 THE COURT: What were the allegations, I guess 15 I'm saying? What illegal things did they think he 16 had done? 17 THE WITNESS: They were saying he was money 18 laundering. And other things. But -- 19 THE COURT: Right. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, and that was described in what was known as 22 the fashion report, isn't that correct? 23 A Right. 24 Q What was the Fashanu report? 25 A It was -- well, first of all, I have never seen 502 1 it. But it's been described in the newspaper articles. 2 Like I just said, John Fashanu said that -- 3 THE COURT: Can you spell that for me, Fashanu? 4 A Yes. It is F-A-S-H -- I think it is 5 F-A-S-H-A-N-U, Fashanu. He's a Nigerian soccer player, sort 6 of a celebrity sports figure in England. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And he's a Scientologist, too, right? 9 A Not that I know of. 10 THE COURT: This Fashanu report, I'm sorry, 11 maybe I misunderstood, did you believe the Church of 12 Scientology was behind that report? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: And in that report that you thought 15 somehow the Church of Scientology had something to 16 do with, they accused Mr. Minton of racketeering 17 using illegal gains to launder it through legitimate 18 business? Is that sort of what they were accusing 19 him of? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. They were accusing him 21 basically of -- you know, I might not get this 22 exactly right but basically working with this 23 dictator to launder funds out of Nigeria. 24 THE COURT: Money laundering in whatever form 25 it is, being an illegal activity. 503 1 THE WITNESS: Right. 2 THE COURT: Because they were not saying this 3 was legal; they were saying this was illegal money 4 laundering? 5 THE WITNESS: Right. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: And, of course, Mr. Minton said 8 that it was totally not true. And, you know, this 9 was particularly infuriating to Mr. Minton because 10 of the fact that he's very proud of the work he did. 11 And he feels very strongly to this day, I'm sure 12 he'll tell you this, too, that the work he did was 13 really good for the country. And again as I said, 14 he wasn't even doing any work by the time Abacha 15 came to power. 16 So, you know, this really made him mad that 17 this was being done. You know, it was almost as if 18 the thing that he was most proud of was being hit, 19 really made him mad. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q They sent out a bunch of fliers in Germany 22 accusing Mr. Minton of being a money launderer? 23 THE COURT: What time did we start this 24 morning? I have a contract with my court reporter. 25 MR. WEINBERG: 9:30. 504 1 THE COURT: We'll take a little break because 2 she needs it. We'll be in recession for 15 minutes. 3 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 4 THE COURT: I'll try to break for lunch about 5 12:30. Continue on. 6 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Ms. Brooks -- 9 THE COURT: By the way, Counselor, I notice -- 10 I think what the rules are for a witness on the 11 stand, I'm being gracious here in allowing her to 12 confer with you. I don't think she has that right. 13 I don't want to exclude her overnight or for a long 14 break, but during the breaks you should not be 15 talking with her. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, may we approach, Mr. Lirot 17 and I, on a separate issue? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 (Bench conference had off the record.) 20 THE COURT: All right, continue on, please. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Ms. Brooks, I was asking you some questions about 23 contact between Church investigators or -- and I guess in 24 here you refer to some of these people as OSA operatives. 25 What is an OSA operative? 505 1 A Well, that is my word for anybody who was involved 2 in any of these investigations. 3 Q All right. And Mr. Schmidt was Mr. Minton's 4 business partner? 5 A His former partner. Yes. 6 Q And I guess did his wife leave him over all of the 7 harassment that Scientologists or somebody related to 8 Scientology gave him? 9 A Who? 10 Q Mr. Schmidt's wife? 11 A Not that I know of. 12 Q Did Mr. Schmidt ultimately have to pay some taxes 13 that he didn't pay as a result of harassment or anything 14 that Scientology did to him? 15 MR. FUGATE: I'll object -- 16 THE COURT: Counselor -- 17 MR. FUGATE: -- speculation. 18 THE COURT: I don't think you can assume he 19 paid taxes because of harassment. He may have had 20 to pay taxes because he owed it. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Did they find out Mr. Schmidt owed a lot of tax? 23 Do you know if Mr. Schmidt had to make tax payments for 24 taxes he didn't make prior? 25 A I'm not aware of that. 506 1 Q Were you aware that I guess Mr. Minton's daughter 2 had flown -- how old are his daughters? 3 A Mmm, at this point they are 14 and 16. 4 Q Obviously they were in their early teens or I 5 guess 11, 12, a couple years ago? 6 A You can do the math. 7 Q Were you aware that Mr. Minton's daughters were 8 followed at some point when they went to have a visit on 9 Long Island? 10 A I believe it's in the time line, isn't it? 11 THE COURT: The question was, are you aware of 12 that, ma'am? 13 THE WITNESS: I believe one of his daughters 14 was. Or at least he thought she was. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you have any reason to believe that that is not 17 true? 18 A Mmm -- 19 Q You don't know? 20 A You know, at this point I'm sort of out of the 21 business. So whether it's true or not, I don't really know. 22 Q All right. 23 THE COURT: But you believed it at the time you 24 wrote the time line? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, I believe it is in 507 1 the time line. And -- and -- you know, yeah. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q All right. I think I'm going to -- did Mr. Minton 4 have to give up a partnership or an interest in an 5 automobile dealership because his partners were upset at all 6 of the -- I guess the attention he was getting from 7 Scientology? 8 A No. They were upset about -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, could we hold on for a 10 second. I'm having trouble hearing. I think they 11 may be breaking or something. 12 THE COURT: I think maybe the jurors -- don't 13 say anything, Mr. Bailiff. I can't stand it when 14 the judge sends somebody out to quiet a crowd. 15 It -- 16 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean for that to happen. 17 THE COURT: But I can't stand it for judges 18 sending somebody out to say, "Keep it down." 19 MR. FUGATE: I have been there before. 20 THE COURT: I have, too. My secretary and I 21 might be frivolous about something and the judges 22 would come out and tell me to be quiet. 23 MR. FUGATE: I can hear. 24 THE COURT: Madam court reporter, repeat that 25 question if you would. 508 1 THE REPORTER: "Question: All right. I think 2 I'm going to -- did Mr. Minton have to give up a 3 partnership or an interest in an automobile 4 dealership because his partners were upset at all of 5 the -- I guess the attention he was getting from 6 Scientology?" 7 A I believe they were upset because they got 8 picketed, if I recall correctly. And they did ask him to 9 let them buy him out. And he did let them buy him out. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Okay. So they were certainly successful in that 12 attempt to limit Mr. Minton's financial dealings. Right? 13 A Yes. 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 15 argumentative. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q What about any of the other of his business 19 friends? Did they become alienated from him because of all 20 of the controversy between he and the Church of Scientology? 21 A Yeah. 22 Q How many friends wouldn't speak with him anymore 23 after all of this, you know, the events you describe in the 24 time line? 25 A I don't know how many. But -- 509 1 Q Two? Ten? All of them? 2 A Well, Mr. Minton felt that his friends wanted to 3 distance themselves from him. You know, how many friends, I 4 don't know. But he felt that his friends wanted to do that. 5 Q Did Mr. Minton have emotional breakdowns 6 throughout all of this, I guess what I'll say, the events 7 that you described in the time line? 8 A Emotional breakdowns? I don't know -- I'm not 9 sure if you would characterize it that way, but it certainly 10 made him extremely upset and got him very mad. 11 Q How about were there any events where he would 12 cry, where he would show that he was just basically breaking 13 down from all of this? 14 A He cried on several occasions with me. But as I 15 said, just -- I can't tell you how furious it made him. And 16 how determined it made him to fight these people. 17 Q Was there an event where Mr. Dandar and you were 18 with Mr. Minton in your house and he basically broke down 19 because all of the pressure that was being exerted on him? 20 A Oh, Mr. Dandar. Yes, there was. He was very 21 upset. 22 Q And that was because of all this pressure that was 23 coming to bear on him. Right? 24 A You know, by the time that meeting was happening, 25 I can't remember when that meeting was. Do you remember, 510 1 Mr. Dandar? 2 THE COURT: Well, he can't say. You just have 3 to just remember the meeting, whenever it was. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q It would have occurred in your house on Belleair 6 Beach -- 7 A Yes. 8 Q -- at some point in time? 9 A Yeah. I think -- you know, I don't recall 10 exactly, but I believe that by that time what he was getting 11 upset about was the discovery that was happening I'm not 12 sure about that. But it certainly wasn't this Scientology 13 harassment, I can tell you, it wasn't that. 14 Now, Mr. Dandar, you know, is going like this at 15 me (indicating) but that is -- 16 Q Well, you keep mentioning all your concerns about 17 this discovery. And both you and Mr. Minton were real 18 concerned about the discovery for the LMT. Right? 19 A Well -- 20 Q What -- just generally what did you understand 21 these discovery demands to be of you? What was the Church 22 looking for in their discovery demands that caused you 23 concern? 24 A Mmm, well, you want to talk about Mr. Minton? Or 25 me? 511 1 Q You first. 2 A Okay. You know, they were asking me -- I think I 3 said this before. But they were asking me questions about 4 the agreement. 5 Q We already know about this agreement. And I know 6 that is of concern to you. 7 THE COURT: That is what I was suggesting that 8 perhaps if you have something specific in mind, 9 she's going to talk about the agreement, she's going 10 to talk about the perjury. She's done it over and 11 over. If you have something else in mind, why don't 12 you ask her if this was also of concern. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q What about your bank records? 15 A My bank records? 16 Q You didn't want -- you didn't want anybody getting 17 a hold of LMT's bank records, did you? 18 A I didn't -- there wasn't anything in LMT's bank 19 records that I minded. 20 THE COURT: Well, they certainly weren't 21 produced. Were they? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, no, your Honor. And 23 basically we weren't producing -- you know, I was 24 not wanting to have to produce anything to 25 Scientology. 512 1 THE COURT: Well, there must be some reason for 2 that. If somebody doesn't want to produce the bank 3 records, there must be something they don't want 4 somebody to see. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, there wasn't 6 anything, in particular. In fact, they ended up 7 getting the records. And I don't know if you have 8 seen them, but there wasn't anything in the records 9 that hadn't already been testified to in deposition. 10 Mmm -- Mmm -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, Mr. Minton didn't want them getting a hold 13 of his bank records. Did they? 14 A No. He felt it was a violation of his privacy. 15 And, you know, the other thing that was happening, and I 16 think this was unfortunate, was that some of the legal 17 advice that he and I were both getting was in the direction 18 of not complying with some discovery, rather than being 19 counselled to comply. 20 Q Well, you had Mr. Merrett as your attorney. 21 Right? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Mr. Merrett represented the Lisa McPherson Trust. 24 Right? 25 A Yes. For a certain amount of time. 513 1 Q And he represented Mr. Minton at that time, too, 2 didn't he? 3 A Mmm, during a certain period of time, he did, yes. 4 Q And isn't it true that you were with Mr. Minton, 5 you had your deposition taken by Mr. Moxon? 6 A Several times. 7 Q Okay. Forget about the agreement and the check. 8 Didn't Mr. Moxon ask you questions about money laundering 9 and tax evasion, tax fraud? Wasn't that a common theme in 10 all of these depositions that you were taking? 11 A Mmm, he might have asked me those questions. I 12 think he asked Mr. Minton those questions a lot more than he 13 did me. 14 Q But there was a theme, wasn't it? 15 A In my depositions? 16 Q In -- 17 A I don't believe so. 18 Q In all these monetary transactions wasn't there a 19 line of questioning that basically went into whether or not 20 Mr. Minton had committed any crimes such as money 21 laundering, tax evasion? Wasn't that an evident theme 22 throughout all of these depositions? 23 A You're talking about Mr. Minton's depositions? 24 Q Sure. Okay. Sure. 25 A I -- I don't know how many times he was asked 514 1 questions like that. 2 Q Do you understand -- 3 THE COURT: Let's put it this way. Did he ever 4 talk to you and -- expressing his concerns that he 5 thought that there were allegations being made by 6 the Church of Scientology, either them or their 7 lawyers or agents, that he was guilty of money 8 laundering, true, or not? I'm mean, I'm not saying 9 if it was true or not, but wasn't that a worry? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, it -- it was -- 11 I wouldn't characterize it as a worry. He was very 12 upset about it. In fact, he sued Scientology in 13 Germany for libel for the things they were saying 14 about him in Nigeria. 15 THE COURT: So he didn't have a care in the 16 world or worry about that threat or that allegation 17 or that suggestion? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, you mean -- if what you are 19 asking is was he afraid he was going to get caught 20 at something, absolutely not. As I said, he went to 21 Howard University and he spread all these papers out 22 all over the place. He spent hours explaining to 23 these people exactly -- 24 THE COURT: Who are these people? 25 THE WITNESS: The people that were at this -- 515 1 well, it was supposed to be a debate, but John 2 Fashanu didn't show up so it just ended up being 3 Mr. Minton spending hours with a large audience of 4 people from Nigeria explaining exactly what his debt 5 buyback work was all about. 6 He -- he -- I mean, in my experience, without 7 any question or doubt in my mind, Mr. Minton has -- 8 considers that he has nothing to hide about that 9 work that he did. 10 THE COURT: Well, and so does the Church think 11 they have nothing to hide about your concerns and 12 your -- your -- in other words, they don't believe 13 what you say is true. He may not believe what they 14 say is true. But there is no question, in looking 15 at those depositions, they're suggesting that there 16 is something there to be looked at regarding money 17 laundering. 18 THE WITNESS: You're right about that. 19 THE COURT: And I presume that concerned him. 20 THE WITNESS: No. You know, it would only 21 concern him if he was guilty of it. 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't know, as I understand 23 it, from reading your time line and this and that, 24 the fact that the lawsuits can be brought, 25 suggestions can be made, can cost an awful lot of 516 1 money for somebody to prove their innocence. I have 2 been in the criminal field. And it takes a lot of 3 money to get yourself out of the -- out of civil 4 RICO charge involving money laundering. It takes a 5 lot of money to pay a lawyer to defend you if those 6 kinds of things are brought. 7 Surely this businessman, worth a lot of money, 8 wasn't concerned about those types of thoughts. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, does he want to be spending 10 money on defending himself legally? Absolutely not. 11 I mean, nobody in their right mind would want to 12 spend their money that way. The only point I'm 13 trying to make is Scientology -- I think they -- 14 they believe, and they may still believe, I don't 15 now -- that Mr. Minton is guilty of money 16 laundering. But I can tell you -- 17 THE COURT: Well, that is not the point. You 18 can tell us that he is or he isn't, that isn't the 19 point. 20 It is like I'm trying to suggest to everybody 21 here. Truth is not really the issue here. It is 22 kind of odd, but it really isn't. The question was 23 whether he was guilty of money laundering or whether 24 he wasn't. It is -- the thread of some of the 25 questions on the deposition is they thought a 517 1 lawsuit might be brought for civil RICO, which would 2 bring him to court to answer to that charge. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, and certainly he didn't want 4 that to happen. If that is the question, did he 5 want that to happen, of course not. 6 THE COURT: It would cost a lot of money to 7 defend. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: Whether he prevailed or didn't. 10 THE WITNESS: Absolutely. 11 THE COURT: Of course in the legal system 12 nothing is perfect, so even if he thought he was 13 totally innocent he didn't know exactly what a jury 14 might do. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, he certainly wouldn't want 16 to be sued for RICO, if that is your question. No, 17 he would not want to be sued for RICO. 18 THE COURT: And he wouldn't want some State 19 Attorney to look at it to see whether the State 20 Attorney might want to bring criminal charges. 21 THE WITNESS: No, I'm sure he wouldn't. 22 THE COURT: As I said, the system is the 23 system. It works pretty good and most of the time 24 justice prevails. But anybody that has ever been 25 involved in the system knows it is not a perfect 518 1 system. 2 THE WITNESS: You bet. 3 THE COURT: And it costs a lot of money to 4 defend criminally and civilly, racketeering and 5 money laundering. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: I read these depositions and I 8 would see these periodically -- these questions 9 being asked. And surely he's a smart enough man 10 to -- to see what is being asked and -- 11 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I mean, I used 12 to say they're trying -- they have four different 13 vectors they are trying to go after him on, it was 14 pretty clear to me, from the questions. 15 THE COURT: What were those four? 16 THE WITNESS: Mmm, money laundering, tax 17 evasion, terrorism for, you know, hate crimes and 18 things like that, and RICO. Those four things. 19 And, you know, it was pretty clear to him and it was 20 pretty clear to me. 21 THE COURT: And some of those not only provide 22 big civil awards, but some of those provide a lot of 23 jail time. Those are serious crimes. 24 THE WITNESS: You bet, that's right. 25 THE COURT: So Mr. Minton was petrified of a 519 1 maximum sentence of 5 months and 29 days, which is 2 all a criminal contempt can bring, surely was 3 petrified about putting his hands in a jury for 4 money laundering, racketeering, terrorism -- and 5 what was the other one? 6 THE WITNESS: RICO. 7 THE COURT: RICO, I presume. 8 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 9 THE COURT: That would certainly be a motive 10 for settling and put all this at rest. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, it would be a motive for 12 settling. It doesn't happen to have been his motive 13 for settling. But -- but for sure he doesn't want 14 to get entangled in any kind of legal problems 15 because of Scientology. There is no question about 16 that. 17 THE COURT: And he discussed that with you, I 18 take it? I mean, you all talked about that? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, well, to the extent that -- 20 yeah. Just only to the extent of saying, you know, 21 I can't believe this, terrorism? Give me a break. 22 You know. And just -- just how frustrating it was 23 that they were trying to do this. But, you know, 24 they've been trying to do this since, well, 1998. 25 THE COURT: It hadn't really stopped, had it, 520 1 at the time you went to meet with Scientology? 2 THE WITNESS: Oh, no, I didn't think it would 3 ever stop. 4 THE COURT: It would stop if you settled, 5 though, wouldn't it? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, we -- I think everything 7 would stop if we settled. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: But I'm just saying that it 10 hadn't given Mr. Minton a motive to settle for the 11 last four or five years, you know. And it wasn't 12 what ended up having him -- getting him to call 13 Mr. Rinder in -- whenever he did. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, let me ask you this. Wasn't there a charge 16 prepared -- 17 A Yes. 18 Q -- alleging that Mr. Minton was himself a 19 racketeer of some fashion? 20 A Yes. 21 Q What do you know about that chart? 22 A Well, I was actually in the courtroom when it 23 happened. Mr. Rosen -- it was a hearing in the Grady Ward 24 bankruptcy case. And Mr. Rosen, who is one of the 25 Scientology's attorneys, was trying to convince the court 521 1 that -- that the court should let Scientology go after 2 Mr. Minton for Grady Ward's judgment -- Mmm, there was a -- 3 I don't remember what you call it, but, you know, they had a 4 settlement agreement and Scientology was claiming that he 5 violated it. And there was -- what do you call that when 6 you have to pay money if you violate the settlement? 7 Whatever. 8 Q A liquidated damage? 9 A Yeah, yeah. It was -- yeah. 10 Q But he was -- a chart showing a whole lot more 11 than that? There was a whole chart saying, "Mr. Minton, we 12 think you are committing racketeering and here is the proof, 13 here is what we think shows you are a racketeer"? 14 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I object to the 15 testimony, and argumentative. 16 THE COURT: I'll allow it. Overruled. 17 A That is not what happened. What happened, 18 Mr. Minton wasn't there. But Mr. Rosen produced this chart, 19 and it had Mr. Minton in the middle and then LMT and me and 20 all of the different other people that he funded around. 21 And it was called, you know, enterprise. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And that is a word used with racketeering. Right? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Criminal enterprise? 522 1 A Yes. 2 Q As far as the LMT goes, LMT never gave any money 3 to fund the wrongful death case, did they? 4 A No. 5 Q Not one penny, not one check was issued from the 6 LMT? 7 A No. 8 Q So why would your concern about those bank records 9 have any bearing on the wrongful death case? 10 A What? 11 Q Why would your concern about turning over those 12 bank records have any bearing on whatever harm -- I guess 13 your testimony was you didn't want to hurt the wrongful 14 death case. How would that have any impact on the wrongful 15 death case? 16 A Mmm, I think my testimony was -- I didn't say that 17 all my discovery problems -- I wasn't trying to blame all my 18 discovery things on the wrongful death case. 19 The issues that came up with regard to the 20 wrongful death case were the perjury. 21 THE COURT: Well, ma'am, the question was about 22 the bank records, so let's get back to the back 23 records. 24 THE WITNESS: Right. The discovery evasion I 25 got involved in was for a bit of a different -- 523 1 THE COURT: No, the question was since LMT paid 2 no money to fund the wrongful death claim, none, 3 what was the concern that you had over turning over 4 LMT's bank records to, in essence, the Church of 5 Scientology, as -- 6 THE WITNESS: Well, there was sort of a general 7 climate of wanting to stonewall all discovery. That 8 was kind of -- not all discovery but all -- well, 9 you know, turning over things. And, I mean, I'm 10 afraid what we were doing was refusing to turn over 11 almost everything to them. 12 THE COURT: Well, why? Why? 13 THE WITNESS: Mmm, because basically 14 Mr. Merrett and I and Mr. Minton didn't feel like 15 they were justified in asking for these things. 16 THE COURT: And I can understand that and I can 17 understand that probably anybody that has a court 18 compel their bank records be turned over feels like 19 the court has invaded their privacy and it's a lousy 20 order. That is besides the point. Once it is 21 ordered it has to be done. You all defied an order. 22 THE WITNESS: We defied several. 23 THE COURT: Sure. And so I would have to 24 assume to defy a court order which could indeed 25 bring another contempt of court, there had to be 524 1 some concern about turning it over. I mean, beyond 2 just the privacy. You lost that. Either you were 3 worried about you had not paid enough taxes or you 4 were worried about what Scientology might do if they 5 got those records or something along those lines, or 6 maybe I'm just crazy. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't think you are 8 crazy, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Well, what was the worry? That is 10 what we're trying to find out. 11 THE WITNESS: Well, what Scientology would do 12 with the information. 13 THE COURT: I suggest you had not paid all your 14 taxes. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, we had. 16 THE COURT: I'm not asking you that. Did you 17 have a concern they would try to use these records 18 to show that you had evaded some income taxes? 19 Trust taxes? Whatever that was, I don't -- 20 THE WITNESS: Well, I was concerned that they 21 would use the records in some bad way. 22 THE COURT: In some bad way? 23 THE WITNESS: That was unspecified in my mind. 24 You know, I was concerned that they would use any 25 information that I turned over in some bad way. 525 1 THE COURT: To -- okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q You -- 4 A That was a separate issue. 5 Q Well, you dissolved the Lisa McPherson Trust? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you dissolved it because you found out you 8 couldn't take the Fifth Amendment as head of a not -- a 9 for-profit corporation? 10 A That's right. 11 Q And you wanted to take the Fifth Amendment, you 12 didn't want to answer any of those questions, because you 13 thought they would incriminate you, right? That is what the 14 Fifth Amendment is all about. Right? 15 A Well, I was already -- I had already perjured 16 myself and I didn't want to have that happen anymore. Also, 17 the time -- the reason we dissolved the LMT was at the same 18 time as Mr. Minton told Mr. Dandar that we weren't going -- 19 that he wasn't going to fund the case anymore, that we had 20 Jesse Prince resign as a witness and I resigned as a 21 witness. 22 Q You dissolved the LMT so you could take the Fifth 23 Amendment because you didn't want anybody getting into your 24 bank records because Mr. Minton told everybody his biggest 25 fear was he would get nailed for tax evasion. He told 526 1 everybody that. Isn't that true? 2 A Where did you get that from? That is not true. 3 Q I guess we'll see. But don't you know that to be 4 the truth? 5 A No. 6 Q Mr. Minton never told you that? 7 A What? Is Jesse Prince and Tracy -- 8 THE COURT: You don't get to ask questions, 9 ma'am. You get to answer that question, was that 10 true. 11 THE WITNESS: The answer was no. I already 12 said. 13 THE COURT: Then move on to your next question. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q In June 2001 Judge Baird ordered Mr. Minton in for 16 a deposition. Isn't that correct? And I guess the day 17 before somebody posted all of Mr. Minton's mental health 18 records or something on the Internet and that got him all 19 upset. Is that true? 20 A No. This was in October that Judge Baird -- I 21 think it was in October. When was it? Anyway -- 22 Q Mr. Minton was supposed to go into a deposition? 23 A Yes, he was. 24 Q In some proceedings? 25 A Yes. And the day before what got posted was not 527 1 his mental health or medical records. What got posted was a 2 list of the names of some of his mental health -- you 3 know -- doctors. 4 Q There was something posted on the Internet about 5 Mr. Minton's mental condition. Right? 6 A Mmm, I don't -- I don't remember if it said 7 anything about his mental condition. But it listed the 8 names of his mental health -- you know, people that he has 9 seen over the years, you know, psychologists or 10 psychiatrists. 11 Q And that got him really upset. Right? 12 A Yes. 13 Q It didn't get him mad. It basically broke him 14 down. Didn't it? 15 A Mmm, I would say it broke him down and made him 16 very angry. 17 Q But it broke him down to the point where he said, 18 "I just can't do this deposition. You have got to get me 19 out of the deposition. I'm just mentally not prepared to go 20 through this." 21 A Yes, he said, "I'm not willing to go to Florida." 22 Q So this guy who is really bombed and just shows 23 anger all of the time, he gets so freaked out that his 24 mental health information of some fashion is on the 25 Internet, he can't go to a deposition, so you write an 528 1 affidavit? 2 THE COURT: That was an awful lot of question. 3 I mean, I don't know on -- if she said yes, I don't 4 know what she's answering yes to, and if she said 5 no, I don't know what she's answering no to. Let me 6 ask you this. I don't know what was posted on the 7 Internet, a list of his doctors? 8 THE WITNESS: A list of the names of his 9 doctors. 10 THE COURT: I'm sure he didn't reveal that? 11 THE WITNESS: No. 12 THE COURT: So somebody got his doctors and he 13 was upset about that? 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 THE COURT: And I have seen depositions where 16 this topic seems to be started, he doesn't want to 17 talk -- like to talk about that. 18 THE WITNESS: Exactly. 19 THE COURT: So this had him upset. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it did. 21 THE COURT: And because of that, he didn't want 22 to go to Florida to give a deposition? 23 THE WITNESS: That's right. 24 THE COURT: Now, see, I don't know what period 25 of time you're talking about. The affidavit came 529 1 right after that or something? What deposition are 2 we talking about? 3 MR. LIROT: Mr. Minton's -- excuse me, his 4 deposition, I think in 2001, I believe it is June of 5 2001. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I guess the hearing about 7 it was in October then. 8 THE COURT: Then whatever affidavit you are 9 talking about I don't know. So go ahead and explore 10 that. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q So Mr. Minton had you do an affidavit to keep him 13 from going to that deposition. Isn't that correct? 14 A You know, I don't recall what happened. I mean, 15 if you have a copy of it -- 16 THE COURT: What was the affidavit all about? 17 That he was unable to come to the deposition? 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q That is the gist of it, wasn't it? He can't come 20 to the deposition because he has been ordered by a therapist 21 not to go? Wasn't that the gist of your affidavit? 22 A Mmm, I believe so. I -- I don't really remember 23 the affidavit, but that is what happened so -- 24 Q And he didn't have any therapist at the time, did 25 he? You lied in that affidavit, didn't you? 530 1 A I did not. He had spent the afternoon on the 2 phone with a therapist. 3 Q Who is this -- who is the therapist? 4 A Mmm, I was asked not to reveal her name. And I 5 don't believe I revealed her name in the affidavit. And I 6 would prefer not to. I don't know that it's really 7 necessary for this. 8 Q There was no therapist? 9 A That is not true. 10 Q You made it up? 11 A No, I did not. 12 Q Who is Diane Palermo? 13 A She's a former Scientologist who now works as a 14 social counselor. 15 Q You asked her to do a statement to support 16 Mr. Minton getting out of that deposition. Didn't you? 17 A Well, Mmm, you are the one that brought her name 18 up so I'll tell you what happened. 19 She was on the phone for most of the afternoon 20 with Mr. Minton. 21 Q What is her qualifications? 22 A As I understood it she was a social counselor. 23 Q So she's a social worker. She works for the LMT. 24 Right? 25 A No. 531 1 Q How did you come across Ms. Palermo? 2 A Mmm, she's a Scientology critic. She had been at 3 the LMT a couple of times. She lives in New York. She's a 4 former Scientologist so she had been someone that we had 5 spoken to. 6 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar, it's really 7 distracting when you are whispering while I'm trying 8 to talk. 9 THE COURT: I'm sorry, you'll just have to 10 subject yourself to it. It is distracting more to 11 me when he's up or down. So one of us has to be put 12 out, so it is going to have to be you more than me. 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, I don't think anybody is 14 more distracted than me, so -- 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q But, no, Ms. Palermo, she was never Mr. Minton's 17 therapist, she was never a counselor for him. Isn't that 18 correct? 19 A Well, he considered that she was his therapist 20 that day. I mean, the fact he had not been seeing her on a 21 regular basis didn't -- wasn't a relevant issue at the time. 22 She's the person that he called when this thing happened. 23 THE COURT: She's the therapist that you were 24 referring to in your affidavit? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 532 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 THE WITNESS: I did not make it up. And I did 3 not lie. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q She's not a licensed therapist by any stretch of 6 the imagination, is she? 7 A When I wrote that affidavit, I thought she was a 8 therapist. She later called me and was she angry that I'd 9 labeled her that way because she said she was a social 10 counselor. 11 Q She -- 12 A As far as I know, I don't -- you know, you would 13 have to show me the affidavit, but I don't recall whether I 14 said licensed therapist. I said that a therapist has 15 advised him not to go. And that -- 16 Q She flat turned you down? 17 A I'm sorry? 18 Q She turned you down? 19 A For what? 20 Q She said, "I'm not doing this, it is not ethical," 21 true? 22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I'll object to the 23 testimony. 24 THE COURT: Me, too. Ask one question at a 25 time. It is not ethical. It is not true. In other 533 1 words, did you ask her to write an affidavit for 2 Mr. Minton? 3 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Merrett asked her to 4 say something in some form, maybe an affidavit, I'm 5 not sure, for the court. 6 THE COURT: For the court. Did she agree to do 7 that? 8 THE WITNESS: And she said no, she didn't want 9 to come forward. 10 THE COURT: And did she say why? 11 THE WITNESS: She said she didn't want to be 12 identified. She didn't want to be harassed by 13 Scientology. 14 THE COURT: And so you did the affidavit? 15 THE WITNESS: And so I did an affidavit. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Well, who is Steve Hassan? 18 A It is Hassan. Steve Hassan. He's -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A He's a -- he's a psychologist, I think. He was in 21 Boston. He does a lot of work with people coming out of 22 cults. 23 Q And you asked him to do the same thing: You asked 24 him to write an affidavit or some document so Mr. Minton 25 wouldn't have to go to his deposition. Isn't that true? 534 1 A I asked him if he would -- no, that was after. 2 Q You didn't ask him to do anything before this 3 deposition? Didn't ask him to produce some document saying 4 Mr. Minton shouldn't go to this deposition because he's in 5 bad mental shape? 6 A Mmm, my memory is that I talked to him after this. 7 But whichever I did, before or after, I asked him if he 8 would see Mr. Minton and act as Mr. Minton's therapist for 9 this situation. Because -- I can't remember who was saying 10 this -- but somebody was saying that Mr. Minton would need 11 to go and see a forensic psychiatrist, and Mr. Minton wasn't 12 wanting to do that. 13 Q He didn't want to go to his deposition, right? 14 A I think he had already not gone. I am pretty sure 15 he had already not gone because this happened right before 16 he was supposed to go. 17 Q And you desperately tried to find somebody who -- 18 even though they had not treated Mr. Minton or didn't know 19 anything about him -- just to come up with some explanation 20 as to why he wasn't at his deposition, isn't that correct? 21 A Mr. Lirot, that is incorrect. I have said this 22 several times. It is incorrect. I was not desperate. I 23 wasn't anything. 24 Mr. Minton spent the afternoon on the phone 25 with -- I was down in Florida. Mr. Minton spent the 535 1 afternoon on the phone with this woman, and I spoke to her 2 that night and confirmed that that was true. 3 Q So there is no false statement in the affidavit 4 that you filed? 5 A No. 6 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, if he's 7 going to ask a question like that, I think he ought 8 to show her the affidavit. 9 THE COURT: Well, I kind of agree. 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, we'll have it after the 11 break. 12 THE COURT: All right. Bring it back after 13 lunch. Go away from this line of questioning and 14 come back to it. I think that is correct. I don't 15 know when the affidavit was written, but I think you 16 should have her look at it and point to whatever it 17 is you are talking about and see if she believes 18 that is true or false. 19 Where is Mr. Howie? 20 MR. MOXON: He had to leave. 21 THE COURT: Know what? We might as well call 22 up Mr. Minton and tell him if he's not here, he 23 doesn't have to come. We'll not finish with her 24 today. As far as I'm concerned, Mr. Minton would be 25 wasting his time to come sit on a hard bench. So 536 1 somebody -- where is Mr. Howie? 2 MR. LIROT: I don't know, your Honor. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I believe he went back to his 4 office. 5 THE COURT: Well, if somebody has a cell phone 6 and they want to call Mr. Howie, tell him he can 7 call Mr. Minton if he wants to. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Early Monday morning? 9 THE COURT: Monday morning, we'll say nine 10 o'clock. I'll say Monday morning at ten o'clock. 11 We've jurors coming in. I'm not even sure where 12 we'll be because I don't know what judges will have 13 trial. So we'll say ten o'clock. 14 Madam court reporter, I'll need somebody from 15 your office here earlier to set up because I can't 16 tell you where to set up. And the same with the 17 lawyers. If you want to set up, somebody better be 18 here by 9:30, then I'll know where we'll be. It 19 will not be here, most likely, as much as I would 20 like to. 21 I'm still hopeful we'll finish with this 22 witness, but I don't think we're going to get very 23 meaningful in Mr. Minton's testimony so we might as 24 well call it a day and stop when we finish. 25 MR. WEINBERG: There will be a bunch of panels 537 1 here at 9? A bunch -- there will be a number of 2 people for parking purposes? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 5 THE COURT: It is jury trial work. So knowing 6 that, I'm not sure what time they get summonses. 7 Somebody from the clerks office can tell you they 8 sure take up the space. So you might want to get 9 here real early. 10 MR. FUGATE: Thanks a lot. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I had not found that public 12 parking yet. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Just were you aware that your declarations were 15 used to try to get Mr. Leipold, the attorney in the 16 Wollersheim case, disqualified yesterday? 17 A No. 18 THE COURT: What affidavits? The same one? 19 A What affidavit? That is my question, too. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Were you aware there was a motion to disqualify 22 Mr. Leipold based on something you had provided to the 23 Court? 24 A No, I wasn't. What was its use? 25 THE COURT: Counselor, I would like to know, 538 1 too. Are you speaking of the affidavit she filed in 2 this case or are you speaking of another affidavit 3 she filed recently out in that case? 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, it's my understanding there 5 was a motion made to have Mr. Leipold disqualified. 6 THE WITNESS: It is Leipold. 7 MR. LIROT: Leipold. All right. I'm still 8 getting up to speed on the pronunciations. But 9 apparently there was a message that some documents 10 provided by Ms. Brooks were apparently used in an 11 effort to have Mr. Leipold disqualified in the 12 Wollersheim case. He was the gentleman that 13 testified by phone the other day. 14 THE COURT: Okay. You are not aware of that? 15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Have you provided another affidavit 17 in California? 18 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: To the best of your knowledge, 20 recent history, are the affidavits provided in this 21 case the only affidavits you provided recently? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Let me go ahead and bring you up to the most 539 1 recent -- 2 THE COURT: Counselor, if you want to prove 3 that, you'll have to prove that. I don't know if it 4 is true. You'll have to prove it by some other way 5 than by those questions. 6 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Let's bring us up to the current period. All 9 right? After the time line you see that Mr. Minton is 10 traumatized so you get in touch with Mr. Howie and you tell 11 Mr. Howie to start setting up the meetings. I want to ask 12 you something about the meetings. 13 When was the first meeting held between 14 Mr. Minton, or Mr. Minton and you, with members of the 15 Church to try to resolve these matters? 16 A Mmm, I think it was March 28th. 17 Q Where was that meeting held? 18 A In New York. 19 Q Who was in attendance? 20 A Mmm, Mr. Rosen. Mr. Rinder. Ms. Yingling. 21 Mr. Minton. Myself. And Steve Jonas. 22 Q Okay. And apparently did you request that all 23 those people be in attendance? Or was that just who showed 24 up? 25 A Mmm, well, Mr. Jonas was representing Mr. Minton 540 1 and me. And we weren't in control of who Scientology would 2 have go to the meeting. 3 Q Were there any meetings prior to this March -- 4 this is March 28 you said was the very first meeting? 5 A I think that was the date. 6 Q Were there any meetings prior to that, that you 7 know about? 8 A I don't think so. 9 Q Did Mr. Minton have any private meetings that you 10 might have heard about, or is it possible he could have met 11 without your knowledge? 12 MR. FUGATE: Well, I would object to that as 13 speculation. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you know of Mr. Minton having any meetings 17 prior to March 28 with anybody from the Church of 18 Scientology? 19 THE COURT: Well, now, somewhere in one of 20 these documents there are some other discussions -- 21 some document that was provided from this witness 22 where she indicated there were other meetings 23 between Mr. Minton and some of the Church leaders. 24 It seems to me they have nothing to do with this 25 case. They were of ancient vintage. I don't want 541 1 open-ended questions. 2 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 3 THE COURT: We're talking about regarding this 4 issue, this settlement, this whatever you want to 5 call it. 6 Are you aware of any meetings between 7 Mr. Minton and anyone from the Church of Scientology 8 prior to the meeting on 3/28/02? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't believe so. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. The first meeting, March 28th, where 12 was it held? It was in New York, but where? 13 A In Mr. Rosen's -- a conference room from 14 Mr. Rosen's firm. 15 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, for the record, is one 16 of the lawyers representing the Church of 17 Scientology in the -- in the case in Clearwater, the 18 breach of contract case wherein the Church is the 19 plaintiff and the estate and perhaps others are the 20 defendant? 21 MR. LIROT: Yes. 22 THE COURT: And I believe Mr. Pope's office is 23 counsel of record and Mr. Rosen is another counsel 24 of record? Is that correct? 25 MR. LIROT: That is my understanding, your 542 1 Honor. 2 THE COURT: All right. Ms. Yingling is another 3 Church attorney? Mr. Rinder is a member of the 4 Church of Scientology. And we know, of course, 5 about this witness, Mr. Minton. Mr. Minton -- and 6 Mr. Jonas is one of Mr. Minton's lawyers and your 7 lawyer? 8 THE WITNESS: Well, he was representing me for 9 the purpose of that -- 10 THE COURT: I'm sorry, not a hearing, of that 11 discussion. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, for the record, 13 Ms. Yingling is a private attorney in Washington, 14 D.C. who is with a firm there who does work for the 15 Church of Scientology. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 MR. WEINBERG: Among other clients. 18 THE COURT: So she is not a member of the 19 Church of Scientology who is also a lawyer. She is 20 a lawyer -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: A lawyer. 22 THE COURT: -- who is retained by the Church of 23 Scientology who -- for this purpose? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 25 THE COURT: Thank you. 543 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Now, so you are there. Mr. Jonas is there. 3 Mr. Jonas worked with Mr. Minton for quite some time. 4 Hasn't he? 5 A I think he has for a number of years. 6 Q Okay. And you are there. Mr. Rinder we know is 7 one of the higher-ups for the Church. I think that was your 8 testimony. Certainly a person with some authority with the 9 Church. Isn't that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And then Mr. Rosen, obviously he's active in one 12 of the cases? 13 THE COURT: I don't know the answer to this. 14 Is Mr. Rosen a member of the Church, as well as a 15 lawyer? Or is he outside? 16 MR. WEINBERG: He's an outside lawyer with the 17 Paul Hastings firm, and his office is in New York 18 City. They have many offices, but that is where he 19 is. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Now, Ms. Yingling was there, as well. What is 22 Ms. Yingling's area of expertise, if you know? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Do you know if she's entered an appearance on any 25 of these cases that either the -- either the breach case or 544 1 the wrongful death case? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q All right. To your knowledge, what was the reason 4 she was at this meeting? 5 A Mmm, I'm not really sure why she was at the 6 meeting. She's an attorney for the Church. 7 Q Had you known her before? 8 A Mmm, I have seen her I think at least one other 9 time in a deposition that she attended. 10 Q And you don't know anything about her area of 11 expertise? 12 A She's a defense attorney, I think. 13 Q She's the one that helped you with your affidavit, 14 I think you testified to? 15 A She provided me some documents. 16 Q Okay. Tell me about the conduct of the meeting. 17 How did the meeting start? 18 MR. FUGATE: Are we talking about the 28th of 19 March? 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q The March 28 meeting. That is correct. 22 A Well, we all sat down. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And said hello. And I think Mr. Jonas was mainly 25 speaking for us. And Mr. Rosen was mainly speaking for 545 1 them, as I recall. Mr. Rinder spoke a little bit. 2 Q All right. And Mr. Jonas, I guess, to be 3 consistent with your testimony, did he say, "My clients are 4 worried about testimony they've given about one check and 5 testimony about an agreement so we're here to throw 6 ourselves on your mercy to find out what we can do to 7 resolve these matters"? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay, why don't you tell me what was said. 10 A Well, I'm going to have to paraphrase because I 11 wouldn't -- I don't have any notes other than -- I mean, I 12 can basically tell you that Rosen -- Mr. Rosen -- well, I 13 think maybe Mr. Jonas spoke first. 14 And but basically what he said was my clients 15 would like to come to an agreement with you that will allow 16 them to walk away from all of this litigation, basically 17 something like that. 18 Q Was there a court reporter there? 19 A No. 20 Q Was there -- was the meeting tape-recorded, do you 21 know? 22 A Not to my knowledge. 23 Q Did you see Mr. -- Mr. Rosen or Ms. Yingling 24 taking notes or anything like that? 25 A Mmm, I -- I don't recall Mr. Rosen taking any 546 1 notes. I'm not sure anybody took any notes, actually. 2 Q You have a very important meeting with lots of 3 pending litigation. Right? There are a lot of cases being 4 discussed here at this meeting. Correct? 5 A Yeah. And he had -- Mr. Rosen did show us a list 6 of some sort. 7 Q So he had some documents to produce at this 8 meeting. Right? 9 A Mmm, he -- he -- he had handwritten, as I 10 recall -- it wasn't typed -- he had handwritten a list of -- 11 of the cases that Mr. Minton has been involved in or is 12 involved in. 13 Q Did you see the list? 14 A Yeah, I did. But he -- he had it. He was reading 15 from it. I mean, I saw that he was reading from it. 16 Q So he had a pad at the meeting. Right? 17 A Mmm, I don't believe he had a pad. I think he 18 just had this piece of paper with this list on it, as I 19 recall. 20 Q Okay. What cases were on the list? 21 A Mmm, well, when Mr. Jonas was finished saying, you 22 know, that his clients wanted to reach a settlement where we 23 could -- where Mr. Minton and I could just walk away, 24 basically, Mr. Rosen said, "Well, you know, walking away 25 isn't going to be that easy because what you have created 547 1 for us is, you know -- you know, all this litigation," maybe 2 20 different lawsuits that he listed out. And he said -- 3 Q Well, let me ask you this. My question was what 4 cases were on the list? 5 A Mmm, well, at the top of the list was the wrongful 6 death case. The breach case. You know, I mean, I'm -- 7 I'm -- the -- the Armstrong case. The -- 8 Q Well, let me ask you this. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 10 THE COURT: Wait a minute. You asked her a 11 question. 12 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 13 THE COURT: Let her do the best she can. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. I apologize. 15 A The libel suit in Germany. The Wollersheim case. 16 The Henson legal trial. That case. Mmm, I can't remember 17 what else, but it was a long list. 18 THE COURT: I saw something, reading last 19 night, about a lawsuit going on in Paris, France. 20 THE WITNESS: Oh, yeah, a French -- 21 THE COURT: I don't know what it was, but I saw 22 something about it. 23 THE WITNESS: That is also a libel suit. I'm 24 not sure if it is still ongoing or not. But that 25 was on the list too, the French case -- cases. 548 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q That doesn't come up to 20? 3 A I know. I don't remember what else. 4 Q Well, you worked intimately with Mr. Minton. You 5 know what he's involved in, right? 6 THE COURT: Counsel, there is no arguing with 7 her further. She said she can't remember any 8 further. We'll have to ask Mr. Minton. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q What is the Armstrong case? 11 THE COURT: I believe you said you planned to 12 tell Mr. Rosen the case. He might bring his little 13 piece of paper with him. 14 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q What is the Armstrong case? What do you 17 understand those issues to be? Why was that brought up at 18 this meeting? 19 A Well, that is -- there is -- let's see, there is 20 now a new lawsuit I have been served with and Mr. Minton has 21 been served with. But the history of it just real briefly 22 is that Gerry Armstrong made a settlement with Scientology 23 maybe in 1986, in the mid-eighties, then he violated that 24 settlement. And Scientology's contention is that he was 25 enabled by Mr. Minton's funding of him to violate the 549 1 settlement so that basically Mr. Minton is a -- I don't 2 remember what the legal word is for it -- but somebody who 3 helps somebody else -- 4 THE COURT: Aider and abetter. 5 THE WITNESS: Whatever. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I guess I still don't understand the case. What 8 did Mr. Armstrong do? 9 A Oh, he's -- there was a settlement agreement 10 between him and Scientology. 11 Q What did they settle? 12 A It was a global settlement that an attorney named 13 Michael Flynn worked out with Scientology, and Mr. Armstrong 14 was one of his clients. 15 Q Okay. 16 A He worked out a global settlement with all of his 17 clients. 18 Q What was the case about? 19 A Mmm, well, there were a bunch of different cases. 20 But the Armstrong case that Mr. Flynn was 21 representing Armstrong on -- Mmm, I'm not actually sure. 22 But he must -- he must have sued Scientology. Scientology 23 sued Mr. Armstrong in 1984. And I'm familiar with that 24 case. But now that you ask me, I'm actually not sure what 25 Mr. Armstrong's -- 550 1 THE COURT: Well, can I ask you this? When you 2 said the Armstrong case was on the piece of paper, 3 was the Armstrong case on the piece of paper, the 4 one you had just been served with? 5 THE WITNESS: We had not been served with it 6 yet. 7 THE COURT: Or to be -- in other words, is it 8 the old case? Or were they trying to list the new 9 case? Or do you know? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not -- I don't 11 actually -- I'm not sure if I'm actually clear on 12 that. But, I mean, the point that was being made 13 was that Mr. Minton's funding -- I mean, the theme 14 throughout this list was that all of this 15 litigation -- or all of these legal problems, in 16 whatever way they were existing, had been made 17 possible by Mr. Minton's funding. 18 And so to that degree, you know, they -- you 19 know, I'm not -- it was -- it was negotiations, and 20 I'm not sure exactly why it was brought up. I'm not 21 sure if it was brought up because, you know -- very 22 large amounts of money, you know -- it came to -- I 23 don't remember how much money, but a lot of millions 24 of dollars that they were saying Mr. Minton was 25 responsible for them having had to spend. 551 1 And, I mean, maybe they were bringing it up 2 because -- well, at least I got the impression they 3 were bringing it up to sort of give Mr. Minton an 4 idea of the scope of what they considered he had 5 caused them. 6 THE COURT: But you and I might differ on what 7 many millions of dollars -- frankly, two would be 8 many and that was a lot to me. 9 THE WITNESS: It was many more than that. 10 THE COURT: Do you have any idea what we're 11 talking about -- 12 MR. LIROT: If I may approach the witness, 13 Judge? 14 THE COURT: You may, but I would still like an 15 answer to that. Do you remember the amount of 16 money? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, this is the lawsuit. 18 THE COURT: Well, this is just one lawsuit. 19 I'm talking about -- 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, you know, I may be wrong, 21 but it was probably close to $100 million. It was 22 such a huge amount of money, it just sort of went 23 off the map for me. It was a lot. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And so then Mr. Rosen said, you 552 1 know, we really aren't going to be willing to get 2 into any settlement talks with you at all until you 3 both set the record straight in the wrongful death 4 case and the breach -- I think he said and the 5 breach case. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Okay, well, I'm asking you about this Armstrong 8 case. You go to this meeting on March 28th. And you were 9 presented with a notice to produce. And counsel, 10 Mr. McGowan, yesterday, provided us with responsive 11 documents. This was among those. 12 Are you aware of that? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And I guess that if you look at the summons on 15 this document it says it was filed on April 2nd, 2002? 16 A That could be. That may be. It looks like it 17 was. I mean, I don't remember when I was served with this, 18 but I was in this courthouse when I was served. 19 THE COURT: I was looking at this last night, 20 and I saw on the front of this, this summons, this 21 Stacy Brooks, president, Lisa McPherson Trust. I 22 didn't know whether that was somehow some penned-in 23 party or whether that was a suggestion that, as the 24 Lisa McPherson Trust, you were served as president. 25 Is that how -- 553 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I don't -- I don't remember 2 if that was on there when I got served. But see, 3 the Lisa McPherson Trust is a party. 4 THE COURT: Were you served in that capacity? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: So you have not been sued in that 7 case in your individual capacity? But you 8 accepted -- you got served as a representative of 9 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Mr. Minton was named in that lawsuit, as well, 14 right? 15 A Yes. 16 Q And -- 17 THE COURT: Who is Gerald Armstrong? 18 THE WITNESS: He's a former Scientologist 19 who -- 20 THE COURT: Another critic. 21 THE WITNESS: -- who has been a very vocal 22 critic. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. FUGATE: He's also listed as a witness by 25 Mr. Dandar in this case, your Honor. 554 1 THE COURT: Okay. Is he listed as -- 2 Mr. Dandar has listed a lot of people that he's 3 trying to list as a person to come in and testify in 4 front of a jury as to Scientology practices. Is 5 that the purpose for his being on the list? 6 MR. DANDAR: Well, he refused to come back to 7 complete his deposition so he was withdrawn. 8 THE COURT: But that is the purpose of listing 9 him? 10 MR. DANDAR: Scientology practices. Yes. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q If you look at Page 10 of this lawsuit, it has a 14 prayer for relief. And I ask you to draw your attention to 15 that page. And you can see in Paragraph 1 it says they are 16 looking for damages of $10,050,000. That is just for 17 Count 1. Right? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What does this have to do with any perjury? 20 A This isn't. As I said, I had not been served with 21 this when we had our meeting. 22 Q Did you know it was coming? 23 A Mmm, I -- I don't remember. 24 THE COURT: We better set this record straight, 25 too. I thought I read this last night. The 555 1 $10,500,000 has nothing to do with either Mr. Minton 2 or her, as representative to -- excuse me, 3 Ms. Brooks, as representative of the Lisa McPherson 4 Trust. That is the lawsuit of Mr. Armstrong. She 5 and Mr. Minton are named. And, of course, included 6 within that is the claim for punitive damages which 7 one can assume would be, as you can see, millions. 8 I mean, the case speaks for itself, but as I 9 looked at it last night, I thought, this claim is 10 against this Mr. Armstrong, whoever he is. And 11 Counts 2 and 3 involve Mr. Minton and the Lisa 12 McPherson Trust. 13 MR. LIROT: Correct. Correct. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What was mentioned about this at all at the first 16 meeting? 17 A Oh -- 18 Q This lawsuit, I should say, since I held it up and 19 I guess that wouldn't be reflected on the record. 20 THE COURT: What is it? Are you going to file 21 this? 22 MR. LIROT: I would like to. It has already 23 been filed as part of what Mr. McGowan presented, 24 but I would like to enter it. 25 THE COURT: As an exhibit? 556 1 MR. LIROT: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Plaintiff's next in order, which is 3 what, Madam Clerk? 4 THE CLERK: Number 10. 5 THE COURT: Number 10. 6 MR. LIROT: 10. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Was this brought up at all during that meeting 9 with Mr. Rosen? 10 A It might have been. It's -- it very well might 11 have been. I'm just not -- my memory is not clear enough, 12 and I think probably that is because of what happened right 13 after that was what my attention went on to much more. 14 You know, this lawsuit, like I said, there was a 15 long list of things. I had the impression that the reason 16 for doing this list and everything was to give Mr. Minton an 17 idea of how much overall monetary damage Scientology 18 considered he had done to them. And, you know, this is part 19 of it, too. But it doesn't stand out -- I mean, it was a 20 part of a whole big thing. 21 THE COURT: Here is what we need to know here. 22 Was the deal that if a settlement were worked out 23 after you came forward and straightened this out, 24 meaning what we're going through right now, that if 25 a settlement could be worked out, it would include 557 1 this going away? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, it was my impression -- and 3 it was my belief -- I mean, we were talking about a 4 global settlement. So it was my idea if a 5 settlement could be worked out, it would all go 6 away. 7 THE COURT: It was your hope, the purpose of 8 you being there and Mr. Minton's being there, was to 9 get out of the litigation business, all of it, if 10 you could? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Including anything that was just 13 filed? 14 THE WITNESS: Or that was about to be filed. 15 THE COURT: Or that was about to be filed. 16 THE WITNESS: Whatever. I don't believe it was 17 mentioned that anything was about to be filed. But 18 in my -- in my mind, it would include everything. 19 THE COURT: So that when -- if a settlement 20 could be reached, when you and Mr. Minton went back 21 to New Hampshire, wherever it was, there would be no 22 lawsuits? 23 THE WITNESS: Correct. 24 THE COURT: Either from him suing the Church or 25 from the Church suing him or you or the Lisa 558 1 McPherson Trust or any other entity perhaps 2 Mr. Minton was involved in? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, that was my understanding. 4 THE COURT: He dropped his suit, they dropped 5 their suits, everyone would go their separate ways? 6 THE WITNESS: That was my understanding -- or 7 my hope. But the settlement discussions -- well, 8 that basically was what happened on the first day. 9 And then -- 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Well, let me ask you, I don't mean to interrupt, 12 but I would rather ask it in a question form. 13 Did Mr. Rosen mention anything about a 14 racketeering lawsuit? 15 A Mmm, he said something like, "You know, 16 Mr. Minton, when you put this whole picture together, it 17 certainly might make grounds for a RICO case against you." 18 Something like that. 19 Q Did he tell Mr. Minton that he was going to end up 20 in jail? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Did he tell Mr. Minton that his wife would end up 23 in jail? 24 A Mr. Minton's wife didn't come up. 25 Q What else did Mr. Rosen say -- 559 1 MR. FUGATE: I continue hear that with the door 2 open. 3 THE COURT: She said Mr. Minton's wife's name 4 didn't come up. 5 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 6 THE COURT: I believe that is what you said. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you. I don't recall 8 that her name came up. I don't recall that jail 9 came up. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q What else did Mr. Rosen talk to you about at this 12 first meeting? 13 A Basically, he went down this litany of -- of legal 14 things that Mr. Minton had funded. 15 THE COURT: We're going to -- let's -- can we 16 break now? Is it a good place? I just have one 17 question. 18 When you say whether it came up or it didn't 19 come up, RICO is -- I don't know if it's an acronym 20 or just a small word for racketeering. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: You know that is criminal as well 23 as civil; there is civil RICO and criminal RICO. 24 THE WITNESS: I do know that. It wasn't my 25 impression that -- it was my impression Mr. Rosen 560 1 was talking about civil. 2 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen isn't a State Attorney 3 and he's not a District Attorney so he would have no 4 authority to charge someone criminally, but you are 5 aware that there are two -- 6 THE WITNESS: That there are two kinds. 7 THE COURT: Two kinds, one civil and one 8 criminal. So he brought up the type he can pursue, 9 which is civil. Right? 10 THE WITNESS: That was my impression. 11 THE COURT: Right. And sometimes from a civil 12 racketeering charge or civil racketeering case 13 criminal charges come. Sometimes from criminal 14 charges a civil case is filed. 15 Were you aware of that? 16 THE WITNESS: No. But it doesn't surprise me. 17 THE COURT: It doesn't matter. We'll see if 18 Mr. Minton was aware of it. We'll be in recess 19 until 1:30. 20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, Mr. Howie is here now. 22 Before he leaves, I wonder if we could clear up one 23 brief housekeeping matter, just the order -- 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 MR. MOXON: -- on the counterclaim. Mr. Howie 561 1 approved the order granting Mr. Minton coming in as 2 counter-defendant. 3 MR. HOWIE: That is correct, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I think we already did that. 5 MR. MOXON: It was never signed. 6 MR. HOWIE: I reviewed the order and I have no 7 problem or objection to it. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. MOXON: I will leave that with you for your 10 JA. Is that correct? 11 THE COURT: If you could take it to her on a 12 break. What is the date today? 13 MR. DANDAR: 7th. 14 THE CLERK: 7th. 15 THE COURT: If you don't mind, you can take it 16 right down if you want to. I think she's in her 17 office. She'll file it for us today. 18 MR. MOXON: Thank you. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, I saw your client as I 20 was going to lunch. I tried to find you right 21 before lunch. It didn't seem to me we were going to 22 get to him, so I told him he was excused as far as I 23 was concerned. If he didn't want to be here this 24 afternoon, he didn't have to be. 25 MR. HOWIE: Do you have any idea when he would 562 1 be required? 2 THE COURT: Well, I would like to have said 3 this morning but obviously I'm wrong. I don't know 4 how long this witness will take. 5 MR. HOWIE: I'll wait to be noticed by the 6 court. 7 MR. FUGATE: When we reconvene it will be 8 Monday. 9 THE COURT: Monday at ten o'clock. 10 MR. HOWIE: Monday at ten o'clock? 11 THE COURT: So if we can possibly finish with 12 this witness today, it would be Monday at ten. 13 Perhaps you can call one lawyer or the other or both 14 to get an idea as to where we are. 15 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much. 16 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Howie. You may be 17 excused if you would like. You are welcome to stay. 18 MR. HOWIE: I'll be staying a while. Thank 19 you. 20 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Lirot, you may 21 continue. 22 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Ms. Brooks, before we broke, we were talking 25 about, I believe, the meeting of May 28, 2002 -- 563 1 A March. 2 Q March. I'm sorry. And you were telling me about 3 Mr. Rosen's activities at this meeting. And apparently was 4 there a large stack of paper represented to be a 5 racketeering lawsuit shown to Mr. Minton or yourself at that 6 time? 7 A Not that I recall. 8 Q Just discussion about the issue? 9 A Uh-huh. 10 THE COURT: "Uh-huh," was that a yes? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. Yes. 12 THE COURT: Okay. I say that and I'll tell you 13 why. Uh-huh and uh-uh are very hard to know whether 14 it is a yes or no on one of those records. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Did the LMT hire a gentleman by the name of 19 Patrick Yost? 20 A Excuse me just a second. He may have held 21 something up and said this was a draft. I -- that may have 22 happened. I'm not sure. 23 Q Did he mention it was a $110 million racketeering 24 suit or anything along those lines? 25 A Not that I recall. 564 1 Q I wanted to ask one back-up question. Did the LMT 2 ever hire an individual by the name of Patrick Yost? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And Mr. Yost is an expert in money laundering 5 factors? 6 A Yes. 7 Q After Mr. Rosen apparently -- I'm taking you back 8 to the meeting now. After Mr. Rosen talked to you about 9 this lawsuit, what did you discuss next at this meeting? 10 A Well, the next day we came in in the morning 11 and -- and, Mmm, basically Mr. Jonas said -- Mmm, "My 12 clients are --" 13 I'm sorry, I'm having a little bit of attention on 14 the question you asked me earlier. If I might just add 15 something to my answer on that. 16 Q I already asked it. That is all right. I asked a 17 simple question and you answered yes, so I'm asking about 18 the meeting -- 19 THE WITNESS: But is it okay if I just add 20 something to that, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Whichever question it is? 22 THE WITNESS: It was about Patrick Yost. 23 THE COURT: You may. 24 A He's an expert in money laundering, and he worked 25 for the Treasury Department. And the reason we hired him 565 1 was to execute an affidavit after a very, very thorough 2 study of Mr. Minton's business dealings in Nigeria. And he 3 executed a very lengthy affidavit stating that he could find 4 no evidence whatsoever of money laundering. 5 So back to the meeting. Mmm, we went in the next 6 morning. And -- 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Well, I'm sorry, Ms. Brooks, I don't mean to 9 interrupt you, but I'm still on the 28th here. 10 A I'm done with the 28th. I mean, that is basically 11 what happened on the 28th. 12 Q You went in, sat down, Mr. Rosen handed you a 13 list, he talked about racketeering and everybody went home? 14 A That is not what I said. 15 Q Well, I would like to know -- I don't mean to be 16 flip with you -- 17 A That was a little flip. 18 Q -- but clearly this meeting lasted longer than the 19 things you have testified to. 20 A Well, the basic gist of it -- 21 THE COURT: How long did it last? I don't 22 know. Maybe it was a 10-minute meeting. How long 23 were you all there at the first meeting? 24 THE WITNESS: Several hours, I would say. I 25 don't remember exactly what time we left. But we 566 1 were there -- we started in the morning. And, you 2 know, we had a break for lunch, we had a couple 3 other breaks. And, you know, sometime in the 4 afternoon we were finished for the day. So it was 5 several hours. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q So that -- that's a pretty healthy meeting. So 9 after you got there, Mr. Rosen shows you this list of -- 10 THE COURT: I don't know if -- Counsel, if it 11 was a healthy meeting or not. Are you trying to say 12 it was a fair amount of time? 13 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 14 THE COURT: All right. 15 MR. LIROT: Lengthy. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q After Mr. Rosen showed you this list of cases, 18 what was discussed after that? 19 A Mmm, that took quite some time, that discussion. 20 And then -- well, and then he basically said -- Mmm -- or 21 perhaps it was Mr. Rinder who said -- that there could be no 22 talk of settlement until we set the record straight in the 23 wrongful death case. 24 Q Well, I want to ask you some more about the cases. 25 After every case was described, was it just a list? Or did 567 1 Mr. Rosen tell you what he wanted the outcome of those cases 2 to be before they would discuss settlement? 3 A No. That wasn't at all the subject of that part 4 of the discussion. 5 Q Did he -- 6 A The only -- the -- 7 Q Did he -- 8 A -- the only requirement that we were given as a 9 precondition to settlement was to set the record straight in 10 the wrongful death case. 11 The rest of it, as I said earlier, was Mr. Rosen 12 basically -- as I said, it was my impression that he was 13 making it very clear to Mr. Minton how much trouble he had 14 caused Scientology by what he had -- he had been funding, 15 generally. 16 Q So this was all just by way of background 17 information, and all we want you to do to settle with us is 18 set the record straight in the wrongful death case? 19 A No, that wasn't what my impression was. What I 20 felt like was, was he was kind of wanting to impress upon 21 Mr. Minton the -- sort of the magnitude of -- of the damage 22 that he had caused -- or, you know, the trouble that he had 23 caused Scientology. 24 Q Well -- 25 A And, you know, my feeling about it was that, you 568 1 know, this was sort of as a negotiating -- you know, when 2 you are in negotiation about something, you want to, you 3 know, sort of send messages to the other person. And I felt 4 like he was wanting to make it very clear to Mr. Minton the 5 magnitude of the trouble he had caused. 6 Q Well, you call it trouble. I mean, wasn't 7 Mr. Minton's position that he was helping people who had 8 legitimate complaints about experiences they had had with 9 the Church? 10 A That wasn't Mr. Minton's position anymore at that 11 time. No, it wasn't. 12 Q When he provided the help in those cases, though, 13 wasn't that Mr. Minton's position? 14 A Certainly. He felt like we were helping for a 15 good time. By the time we were sitting down in New York he 16 no longer felt that way. He felt like he had been used. He 17 felt like he had been taken advantage of quite a bit, 18 particularly by Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold. And he didn't 19 want anything to do with litigation involving the Church of 20 Scientology any longer because -- and I felt that way and 21 had felt this way for quite some time, and I feel this way 22 today. 23 Litigation is not a proper forum for resolving any 24 kinds of differences with Scientology. It's just not -- 25 it's not appropriate, it's not -- it's -- it doesn't achieve 569 1 the goals that -- or it doesn't achieve what -- it just 2 doesn't achieve anything positive. 3 You know, it -- we had come to feel it was just 4 a -- a game of who is going to win the most money or who is 5 going to win money or whatever. And -- and, you know, as I 6 said, Mr. Minton was feeling extremely used and abused by 7 Mr. Dandar. 8 Q Well, I think your testimony was he felt used and 9 abused effectively by everybody involved in litigation 10 against the Church he had funded? 11 A No, he didn't feel used and abused by everybody. 12 He felt used by Mr. Dandar and Mr. Leipold and he felt used 13 and abused by Mr. Dandar. 14 Q Okay. So Mr. Dandar is in a special place in 15 Mr. Minton's mind then? 16 A Very much so. Very much so. 17 Q All right. 18 A Mr. Dandar is the only one who has encouraged 19 Mr. Minton to perjure himself. That puts him in a pretty 20 special category. 21 Q That has been your testimony throughout. 22 A It will continue to be my testimony. Because it's 23 the truth. 24 Q I'm confident of that. 25 Now, what other aspects of this -- this is a long 570 1 meeting, several hours. And I guess Mr. Rosen just wanted 2 to show Mr. Minton, in your words, how much trouble he had 3 caused the Church. 4 What else did Mr. Rosen say? 5 A Mmm, that was pretty much the role that Mr. Rosen 6 had in the meeting. I'm pretty sure it was Mr. Rinder who 7 then basically said, you know, we're really not willing to 8 discuss any kind of global settlement with you until you set 9 the record straight on the wrongful death case. 10 Q Well, nobody cared about setting the record 11 straight. Did they? The request was dismiss the case, get 12 this case wrapped up because it is the biggest nightmare we 13 have. Wasn't that what Mr. Rosen told you? 14 A No, he said Mr. Rinder said that they wouldn't be 15 willing to discuss settlement with us until we set the 16 record straight in the wrongful death case. 17 Q Wasn't there a lot of correspondence and 18 statements made about dismissing the case? Wasn't that the 19 goal? Wasn't that a prerequisite of any settlement? 20 A No. That is not what -- that wasn't my 21 understanding. They -- you know, of course Mr. Rinder said 22 that he would like this case to go away. 23 Q Well, that is not setting the record straight. Is 24 it? 25 A That is not what he wanted us to do. He wanted us 571 1 to set the record straight. He felt if the record was 2 actually set straight, that that would be the effect that it 3 had -- 4 Q Well, Mr. -- 5 A -- because he -- because he felt that the case 6 was -- Mmm, you know, that there were a lot of things about 7 the case that were -- that were false. And that there was 8 another whole -- you know, that kind of thing, just another 9 agenda going on. That it was an attack against Scientology 10 and not -- and that it wasn't legitimately being litigated. 11 Q How would -- 12 A So we did talk about that. 13 Q How would they know what in the record was not 14 true? 15 A Well, they didn't. But he just said, you know, 16 you guys have been in a number of depositions and your 17 stories have changed on various issues. 18 They never went into detail about any specific 19 things. 20 Q Well -- 21 A Any -- 22 Q What changed -- 23 A Sir. That didn't really start -- that whole 24 process really didn't start until Saturday, April 6th, the 25 day after Judge Schaeffer let Mr. -- 572 1 Q Well -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a minute, I would like to hear 3 her answer. 4 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 5 THE COURT: The day after Judge Schaeffer did 6 not find Mr. Minton in contempt? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. Which was 8 April 5th. 9 THE COURT: What discussions happened the day 10 after that? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, the day after that, the 12 Saturday after that Friday, is when Mr. Minton 13 called Mr. Rinder and said he wanted to come over 14 and start the process of setting the record 15 straight. 16 THE COURT: So during this first meeting there 17 wasn't any discussion as to what that was? 18 THE WITNESS: No, not at all. And, in fact -- 19 well, can I -- can I talk about what happened next? 20 THE COURT: Well, actually, we need to go back 21 to letting him ask his questions. So go ahead. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And that is my question. If you have a meeting, 24 we want to set the record straight, how would they have any 25 idea there was anything in the record that needed to be set 573 1 straight? 2 A Well, I don't know if you read any of these 3 deposition transcripts. I have had the opportunity to 4 reread some of them. And I think it is pretty obvious to 5 anyone that, you know Mr. Minton and I were both, you know, 6 giving different answers at different times. 7 Q On what? Tell me what. 8 A Well, for example, with regard to the agreement 9 for the bulk of the proceeds to go to the LMT. 10 First, you know, there were early depositions in 11 which an early -- an early deposition or maybe more, I can't 12 remember, where Mr. Minton was just, you know, very excited, 13 yes, it's going to happen, you know. Then a later 14 deposition where he's like, no, there is no such thing. 15 You know, once we got into the process of setting 16 the record straight, it was pretty clear to me how they 17 could have gotten the impression that something in the 18 record needed to be set straight. 19 Also, the discovery evasion that had been going 20 on. You know, what I think is that it was pretty obvious to 21 them that something was going on that -- that we weren't 22 being forthcoming about something. 23 Q Well, I think it's clear you didn't turn over any 24 of the LMT records that were requested of you. 25 A Right. And we -- well, we've already talked about 574 1 the other things that -- 2 Q That didn't have anything to do with Mr. Dandar, 3 did it? 4 A No, there were other things, too. 5 Q None -- 6 A I think I already testified to that about it. 7 Q But the LMT records had nothing to do with 8 Mr. Dandar so there is no record to be set straight as far 9 as that is concerned. Right? 10 A Well, there were discovery issues and -- well, I 11 mean document production issues, as well as testimony issues 12 that needed to be set straight. 13 Q Well, the only testimony issues -- your testimony 14 certainly implies that there is tons of stuff that we need 15 to set the record straight? 16 A No, there was just a few fairly major things. 17 Q One about the agreement. What else? What else 18 was obvious that was untrue -- 19 THE COURT: How many times do we have to listen 20 to this woman tell us what her testimony has been 21 all these days? She told us what they are. And do 22 you really think just by asking her again she's 23 going to tell you anything different? 24 As I said, there is a thing called leading 25 questions. If you are going to pursue it, pursue 575 1 it. But if you are going to let her narrate, she'll 2 narrate the same thing she told you three, four, 3 maybe five times. All right? 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q All right. There was nothing obvious in any of 6 those depositions about the check that you talked about 7 being the subject of incorrect testimony, nothing obvious in 8 anybody's deposition -- 9 THE COURT: Are you trying to -- 10 A Are you telling me? 11 THE COURT: Are you trying to say they had the 12 check and say, "Here, Minton, you know you lied, 13 here is the check"? 14 MR. LIROT: That is not my question, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 16 THE WITNESS: They didn't, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q They never had any check at that point in time. 20 The $500,000 check from, I guess, May of 2000? 21 A I never saw them produce anything like that. 22 Q So that wouldn't be obvious to anybody. 23 A No. Matter of fact, it was a huge, huge surprise 24 to them when Mr. Minton told them about it. 25 Q And when did he tell them about it? 576 1 A On Saturday, April 6th. 2 Q Okay. What else did Mr. Minton tell them? 3 MR. WEINBERG: At what point in time? 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q I'm still on my meeting. 6 A Oh. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Well -- 8 A Which meeting? 9 THE COURT: March 28. 10 MR. LIROT: I still want to go back to the 11 28th, Judge. 12 A Well, that answer I gave you didn't have anything 13 to do with that. I have actually finished talking about 14 March 28. 15 But I could tell you more about what happened on 16 March 29. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Well, Ms. Brooks, you testified this meeting 19 lasted several hours. And your description of the important 20 events of the meeting has been very brief, very cryptic, and 21 I'm trying to fill in what I consider to be several hours, 22 something must have happened -- 23 A Well -- 24 Q I don't want to be argumentative and I don't want 25 to be disrespectful, but something happened during this 577 1 several-hour meeting. 2 A Well, I think cryptic is not a good description of 3 what I have said. I tried as hard as I could to tell you 4 what happened during the meeting. 5 THE COURT: Have you covered everything as far 6 as you are telling us that happened in that meeting? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: If you think there is something 9 more, you're going to have to ask her. 10 MR. LIROT: I am trying, Judge. 11 THE COURT: Well, you can't let her tell you 12 because she's going to tell you what she has told 13 you. 14 If you think there was something else, you have 15 to refresh her memory, ask her, impeach her, if you 16 can. 17 MR. LIROT: I will get there, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Mr. Jonas was at that meeting. All right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That first meeting? 22 A He was at both. 23 Q At both meetings? 24 A Well, at both days of the meeting. 25 Q And there was a demand made that if the settlement 578 1 was going to happen, the wrongful death case had to be 2 dismissed. There was nothing said about setting the record 3 straight. The demand was made the case had to be dismissed 4 no matter what, isn't that correct? 5 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor, I object to 6 the testimony. 7 THE COURT: Overruled. I think this is an 8 effort at leading. 9 A That is not my memory. I told you what happened 10 in the meeting, to the best of my recollection. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, Mr. Jonas was at the meeting. Right? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And he understood that -- the demands that were 15 made at the meeting, would you believe he would? 16 A Yes. 17 MR. LIROT: Judge, give me just one second. 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Well, you met on the 28th and you met on the 29th. 21 You went back the very next day? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. Tell me about the meeting on the 29th? 24 A Okay. On the 29th we went in in the morning. And 25 Mr. Jonas basically said that his client, Mr. Minton and I, 579 1 were willing to begin the process of, you know, dealing with 2 the issues in the wrongful death case, but in return for 3 that we required that they continue the two contempt 4 hearings, one before Judge Schaeffer and one before Judge 5 Baird, and also the deposition before Judge Baird that was 6 scheduled for April 5th, 8th and 9th. 7 And then they left and -- they left the room to go 8 discuss that. 9 Then they came back and Mr. Rosen said -- Mmm, we 10 aren't going to continue anything. We're not in settlement 11 discussions with you right now. We aren't going to give you 12 any kind of concession until you deal with the wrongful 13 death case. 14 MR. LIROT: Okay. Judge, may I approach? 15 THE COURT: You may. 16 A So then -- 17 THE COURT: Wait a second now. He wants to 18 approach. I think he figures you answered that 19 question. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Let me hand you a letter from Mr. Jonas dated 22 March 25, 2002. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think this will be 24 Plaintiff's Exhibit 11. 25 THE COURT: Correct. 580 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm assuming that 2 you -- that it was all right for me to violate this 3 confidentiality agreement in your court? 4 THE COURT: It certainly was all right with me. 5 Matter of fact, I would have required it. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 THE COURT: But I have no idea what that means 8 as far as whatever agreement you had made or 9 whatever agreement you contemplate making. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I'm just talking about this 11 agreement. 12 THE COURT: All I can tell you is you have your 13 options here. If you say that you are not going to 14 speak about what happened because of some 15 confidentiality agreement, I'm likely to strike your 16 testimony and not consider it. I mean, I'm not 17 party to this and so you either have got to violate 18 the agreement or you don't. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, this is the agreement that 20 I think was raised in the hearing before -- in fact, 21 I know it's the agreement raised in the hearing 22 before Judge Baird. And Mr. Rosen indicated before 23 Judge Baird and I indicated to your Honor on a 24 conference call with all counsel that we waived any 25 confidentiality and they can talk about anything 581 1 they want to. 2 THE COURT: So you are telling her -- 3 MR. FUGATE: As far as we're concerned -- 4 THE COURT: -- as far as the Church of 5 Scientology is concerned, they will waive the 6 provision that is in this letter? 7 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 8 THE COURT: And she is free to discuss this 9 with the Court? 10 MR. FUGATE: That is absolutely correct. 11 THE COURT: I think that should be 12 satisfactory. 13 THE WITNESS: I probably should have checked 14 that before I started. 15 THE COURT: No, I think that Mr. Fugate has 16 indicated at the last hearing when this was 17 mentioned when Mr. Minton was testifying, but the 18 lawyer never followed up on it. 19 And I was told something about this hearing 20 that there was this confidentiality agreement. 21 Mr. Fugate said, "I waived it," so I think you are 22 okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 24 THE COURT: As I said, frankly, if they hadn't 25 waived it, I would have ordered you to respond and 582 1 then you would have been in a pickle because you 2 would have either responded or you would have gone 3 to jail. 4 THE WITNESS: I hate it when you say that, your 5 Honor. 6 THE COURT: I know. But I'm here and I have a 7 lot of people here and I have somebody that might 8 see what -- you know, that I don't have any choice. 9 I say you have got to answer and if you don't then I 10 have got to act. 11 But we don't have to worry about that so 12 proceed on. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, Mr. Jonas -- I think you were 15 testifying Mr. Jonas represented you at these meetings? 16 A Yes. 17 THE COURT: What is the next number, Counselor? 18 MR. DANDAR: This is 11. 19 THE COURT: Thank you. Madam Clerk, do you 20 have this? 21 THE CLERK: No, I don't, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Do you want to give the clerk -- 23 MR. LIROT: I'll give her my copy, Judge. I 24 just want to ask a question about it first. 25 583 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q It says that the last full sentence of the 3 first -- the first paragraph it says, "Without trying to 4 anticipate all of the ways in which this agreement could be 5 violated, it is specifically agreed that the discussions 6 will not be posted on the Internet, will not be inquired 7 into in discovery in any litigation, will not be revealed in 8 any court papers or any court." 9 How do you set the record straight when you have 10 that as part of your deal? 11 A What do you mean? 12 Q Well, doesn't it say that nothing about these 13 meetings will be revealed in court? Wasn't that one of the 14 ground rules? 15 A I guess I don't understand your question really. 16 I mean, that was referring to this settlement discussion 17 that I just spent quite some time describing to you. 18 Q All right. How do you set the record straight if 19 you're not going to reveal any of these issues in court? 20 A Mmm, I think you might be misreading this. 21 Q Well, if I am, correct me. 22 A Okay. He's talking about the content of the 23 settlement talk that we had. 24 Q Okay. 25 A But what ended up happening was we didn't have a 584 1 settlement talk, really. So, you know, technically 2 speaking, there is really -- I guess there really was no 3 problem with a violation of this agreement itself. But 4 there certainly isn't anything in this thing that talks 5 about any kind of prohibition on talking about what happened 6 in a lawsuit. 7 Q Well, my question to you is simple. How do you 8 set the record straight if part of your deal is you are not 9 going to reveal any information in court? 10 THE COURT: Maybe you ought to save that for 11 me, Counselor. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I think you are doing apples 13 and oranges here, really, because we weren't -- what 14 was addressed in terms of setting the record 15 straight wasn't the settlement meeting that we were 16 having. It was our testimony in the wrongful death 17 case. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Well, let me ask you this. Are these all cases in 20 which Bob Minton is a party? 21 A No. 22 Q So this umbrella of confidentiality goes to other 23 cases? 24 A I -- the umbrella of confidentiality goes to the 25 settlement discussions, not cases. 585 1 THE COURT: By the way, I didn't think about 2 this, but now that Mr. Minton has been added as a 3 party, he's at liberty to sit in the courtroom. 4 Right? He's not here. And as I said, I saw him at 5 lunchtime and told him he was free -- as far as I 6 was concerned, I could tell him I was not -- I would 7 not require them to call him today, but I 8 anticipated Ms. Brooks would take the rest of the 9 day. But if he wants to come now that he has been 10 added as a party, he's permitted to be in the 11 courtroom. 12 THE WITNESS: You should advise him of that. 13 THE COURT: So, Mr. Howie, you are free to call 14 your client, or if he's out there or he's somewhere 15 where he can be reached, he'll be allowed to be in 16 here. I'm sorry, Counsel, I interrupted you. 17 MR. LIROT: No, quite all right. I'm looking 18 at these letters, Judge. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Let me ask you then what happened on the 29th? 21 This letter was obviously written on March 25th and you had 22 your first meeting on the 28th of several hours. 23 What time did you meet on the 29th? 24 A Mmm, perhaps ten in the morning. 25 Q All right. The same place? 586 1 A Yes. 2 Q New York, in Mr. Rosen's office? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who was in attendance at this second meeting? 5 A The same people. 6 Q The same exact people? 7 A The same exact people. 8 Q All right. And those, as I understand it, were 9 Mr. Jonas, you, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder, Mr. Rosen and 10 Miss Yingling? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What did you talk about at the second meeting? 13 A Well, as I said, Mr. Jonas said that Mr. Minton 14 and I were willing to begin dealing with the issues in the 15 wrongful death case but that we required that -- that, in 16 return, as a concession from their side, that they continue 17 Judge Schaeffer's contempt hearing, Judge Baird's contempt 18 hearing and a deposition that was set for Mr. Minton in the 19 Baird -- in the breach case for April 8th. 20 And Mr. Rosen -- and then they left -- I think I 21 just said this, your Honor, but -- 22 THE COURT: You did. 23 A Then they left for a little while. Then they came 24 back. And Mr. Rosen said, "We aren't willing to begin any 25 kind of settlement discussions or give you any concessions 587 1 in any way until you have dealt with the matters involving 2 the wrongful death case." 3 And so I got -- I particularly got extremely upset 4 with them for this and felt that -- and said that I felt 5 that they weren't acting in good faith, and I stood up and 6 we all left at that point. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q And so how long was the second meeting? 9 A It wasn't very long. 10 Q All right. How did you leave? You just got up 11 and left the room? 12 A Yeah. We got up and went back to Mr. Jonas's 13 office. And then about an hour later, maybe, Mr. Rinder 14 called Mr. Minton and -- 15 THE COURT: Was he still at the lawyer's 16 office? 17 THE WITNESS: He was still at Mr. Jonas's -- 18 not Mr. Jonas's office but the New York offices of 19 Hale & Dorr. 20 And I didn't hear Mr. Rinder's side of the 21 conversation, but Mr. Minton later told us that he 22 said basically, you know, "I hope you understand 23 that this is not intended to -- to, you know, break 24 off our discussions. We just require this 25 precondition before we can continue." 588 1 So -- so at that point, Mr. Minton said, "Well, 2 we --" I think he said, "Well, we did kind of think 3 that you were acting in bad faith," or something 4 like that. 5 Then -- 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q By not continuing these contempt hearings? 8 A Yes. 9 Q All right. 10 A And then -- and then we got Mr. Howie on the 11 phone, I think we got Mr. McGowan on the phone, too, if I'm 12 not mistaken, and told them that these hearings were going 13 forward and that we needed to start preparations for these 14 hearings. And we switched over to preparations for these 15 two hearings and that deposition that were coming up the 16 next week. 17 Q Okay. What did you do in the interim, after the 18 29th? When was the first court hearing? Was it in front of 19 Judge Schaeffer? 20 A Friday, April 5, I believe. 21 Q That was the one in front of Judge Schaeffer where 22 it was the continued contempt hearing involving Mr. Minton? 23 A Not continued. 24 THE COURT: Not continued. It was the contempt 25 hearing. 589 1 A It was the one we wanted to have continued but 2 didn't get continued. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q So that one hadn't begun before. It was the one 5 in front of Judge Baird, that was a continued hearing? 6 A It was? I wasn't aware of that. 7 Q So between the 29th of March and April 5th when 8 Mr. Minton was here before Judge Schaeffer, what 9 communication did you have with the Church that you can 10 recall? 11 A I don't believe there was any. I don't recall 12 that there was any. I mean, it was broken off with 13 pretty -- you know -- 14 Q Did you think that -- 15 A -- sharply. 16 Q -- communications -- did you think that settlement 17 possibilities at that time were over? 18 A No. We thought that we were in a really bad 19 position, because in order for us to get to the point of 20 Scientology being willing to settle anything with us, we 21 were going to have to go before the court -- both courts -- 22 or if -- you know, if we would -- in order for that to 23 happen, we would have to go before both courts and recant 24 testimony and correct the record for both of us. And -- and 25 we were both -- Mmm, well, we were very conflicted about it 590 1 and spoke to Mr. Dandar -- I believe we spoke to him on both 2 the night of March 28th and the night of March 29th. 3 But the night of March 29th, after they said that 4 they wouldn't continue those hearings, we had a very 5 upsetting conversation with Mr. Dandar. 6 Q And that was on Good Friday? Was March 29th Good 7 Friday? 8 A March 29th? If that was Good Friday, that is when 9 the conversation happened. 10 Q Were you privy -- 11 THE COURT: Excuse me just one second. 12 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: Did you indicate that you had had a 14 conversation with Mr. Dandar after the first hearing 15 on the 28th, the night of the 28th, and the night of 16 the 29th? 17 THE WITNESS: I believe we did, your Honor. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Meeting. 19 MR. FUGATE: The first meeting. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Meeting, not hearing. You said 21 after the first hearing. 22 THE WITNESS: No, after the first day of the 23 meeting. 24 THE COURT: Right. Then you had a discussion 25 with Mr. Dandar on the 28th and another discussion 591 1 with him on the 29th? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q So that the meeting on the 28th is several hours 6 and you talked to Mr. Dandar that night? 7 A I'm pretty sure we did. 8 Q All right. Did you personally talk with 9 Mr. Dandar? Or was it just Mr. Minton? 10 A Mmm, I don't remember on the conversation of the 11 28th. I know we both talked to him on the 29th. 12 Q Do you remember any of the contents of the 13 conversation with Mr. Dandar on the 28th? 14 A Mmm, I think -- because on the night -- this is -- 15 I'll do my best. 16 On the night of the 28th, we still were thinking 17 that we would be able to basically work out some kind of an 18 agreement with the Scientology that would allow us to settle 19 without having to come before the Court. 20 But I believe that it was the night of the 28th 21 when Mr. Minton first told Mr. Dandar that he was going to 22 have to tell the truth about the checks. I'm not sure about 23 that, but I -- I think that was when he told him that his 24 attorney had instructed him that he was going to have to 25 come forward and recant that testimony. 592 1 Q And that would be Mr. Jonas? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. And -- 4 A And Mr. Dandar -- Mr. Minton told me that 5 Mr. Dandar I think -- I don't think I was privy to 6 Mr. Dandar's conversation on this. 7 Q Well, let me -- 8 A But I did come away with it knowing that -- or -- 9 believing that Mr. Dandar's response was, basically, "No, 10 you can't do that. You know, you can't -- you can't -- you 11 can't do that," basically. 12 Q What about on the 29th? You had another phone 13 call with Mr. Dandar? 14 A Yeah. The 29th when we were back in New Hampshire 15 by then, we were very, very frightened about what was going 16 to happen to us. We were feeling very much cornered and 17 feeling that there was no way out of this whole thing for 18 us. 19 And we -- we felt very strongly that night that -- 20 and Mr. Minton got on the phone and told Mr. Dandar -- and 21 he was very upset when he spoke to him -- he said, you know, 22 "You have got to drop this case. You have just got to drop 23 this case. And that is the only way to avoid all this 24 stuff" or, you know, words to that effect. 25 THE COURT: You could hear Mr. Minton or -- 593 1 THE WITNESS: No, I was on the speakerphone 2 now. Now we were on a speakerphone up in the attic. 3 And Mr. Minton -- 4 THE COURT: Is there some reason you were in 5 the attic? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, the attic is not -- the 7 attic in the farmhouse in New Hampshire is a real 8 room. It's just a top floor. 9 THE COURT: I just had visions of you two 10 huddled up in some attic somewhere. 11 THE WITNESS: It's a nice attic. 12 THE COURT: Well, I just bought a house and my 13 attic is not very nice and you can't make any phone 14 calls from it. 15 So you all were in a real room on a 16 speakerphone. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. Then Mr. Dandar got very 18 upset. And he said, "I can't believe you are asking 19 me to do this," you know, "my client will never do 20 that." 21 Oh, yeah, and I think that was when -- because 22 I think we had -- the night before, we were going to 23 meet him in Cleveland or something to talk about 24 what was happening and to -- you know, to talk about 25 it in person. 594 1 Then on the 29th, I think -- or -- maybe that 2 was in a later conversation. But in any case, 3 Mr. Dandar said, you know, "I don't want to meet 4 you. You'll give me a heart attack. I don't want 5 to talk about this." You know. 6 Then the next day or a few days later, maybe 7 Sunday or something, he sent a big long letter which 8 was like totally, Mmm, you know a CYA letter. 9 THE COURT: Who did? 10 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar sent it to Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: You know, it was very pious and, 13 you know, "I can't believe you would do this. I 14 would never do anything bad. If I would have 15 known --" 16 THE COURT: If somebody will introduce the 17 letter rather than have her try to recall it, why 18 don't we get it up here and see if she can recognize 19 it, see if it becomes admissible and we'll see where 20 we are. 21 THE WITNESS: Well, the main thing I remember 22 about the letter, that was the first place -- that 23 was the first time Mr. Dandar's defense about this 24 whole thing began to be apparent. Because one of 25 the things that he said in the letter was, "If I 595 1 would have known there was anything wrong with your 2 money, I would have never taken it." 3 Bob and I are like, "What?" 4 You know, this is like totally some fiction 5 that he's now starting to concoct, it was really 6 upsetting. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Do you have a copy of the letter? 9 A No. 10 Q Does Mr. Minton have a copy of the letter? Do you 11 know? 12 A Mmm, he would probably be able to get one. 13 Because it was an E-Mail. 14 Q It was an E-Mail? 15 A Yes. An E-mailed letter. 16 Q Okay. Did you ever see a letter that Mr. Dandar 17 wrote to Mr. Jonas? 18 A Mmm, yes, I do -- I believe I did. And I also saw 19 Mr. Jonas's response. 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, may I approach? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 A In which he corrected what Mr. Dandar said. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Ms. Brooks, I have an April 10 letter from 25 Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas -- 596 1 THE COURT: You want to tell us what number 2 this is and do we have something for the Court and 3 clerk? 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, this will be Number 12. 5 THE COURT: And what is that? 6 MR. LIROT: This is the April 10th, 2002 letter 7 from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. LIROT: And then Number 13 will be the 10 April 11th letter from Mr. Jonas back to Mr. Dandar 11 in response. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Judge, before we get to that, 14 that last exhibit -- I'm sorry, Luke, but that last 15 exhibit that you never gave the clerk, do you want 16 to give it to her, have her put a number on it? 17 MR. LIROT: Number 11? 18 THE COURT: It's Number 10. 19 MR. LIROT: That one is Number -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: Whatever it was, it is still 21 sitting there. 22 THE COURT: You have a bunch of stuff, 23 Mr. Lirot. I mean, Mr. Dandar does this to me from 24 time to time. You have stuff handed up that hasn't 25 been admitted that you haven't introduced it. That 597 1 would be cancellation fair game and some of this 2 stuff. I don't know, maybe you just don't want it 3 in. 4 MR. DANDAR: No. No. 5 MR. WEINBERG: 3/25/02 -- 6 MR. DANDAR: That is the confidentiality 7 letter, Exhibit 11 of the plaintiff. 8 THE COURT: Well, has that been introduced? 9 MR. DANDAR: She just identified it. 10 MR. WEINBERG: It hasn't been given to the 11 clerk. 12 THE COURT: The confidentiality letter, has 13 that been introduced? 14 MR. LIROT: That is an exhibit to the omnibus 15 motion, Exhibit Number 73. 16 THE COURT: I understand that. You made it a 17 number for the benefit of the hearing. Has it been 18 introduced? 19 MR. LIROT: I would like to introduce all of 20 them. 21 MR. DANDAR: This is the one we're talking 22 about. That is 11. 23 MR. LIROT: Oh. 24 MR. DANDAR: There is a copy up here somewhere. 25 MR. LIROT: All right. So we have -- we have 598 1 the March 25th, 2002, as Exhibit Number 11. I'll 2 just write that on here. 3 THE COURT: No. Give it to the clerk. She's 4 going to do this. That is why I have a clerk here. 5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, would you ask 6 Mr. Howie if he was able to reach Mr. Minton? 7 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, were you able to reach 8 Mr. Minton? 9 MR. HOWIE: No, I was not able to. I left a 10 voice mail message. 11 THE WITNESS: On his cell phone? 12 THE COURT: On the cell phone? 13 THE WITNESS: On his cell phone. 14 THE COURT: Here I am being some intermediary 15 between the witness and Mr. Minton. 16 MR. HOWIE: I left a voice mail message on 17 Mr. Minton's cell phone. 18 THE COURT: Do you know a way where he might 19 better reach him? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Do you want to do this? Come up 22 and find out from this witness? 23 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 24 MR. LIROT: I have Number 11 for the clerk, 25 Judge. 599 1 THE COURT: Great. Madam clerk, would you 2 please mark that as admitted. 3 MR. LIROT: And I have the April 10th letter 4 from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas which will be 5 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 12. And I have a copy 6 for the court, and the clerk. And I have the 7 April 11th letter from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas -- 8 THE COURT: I have seen these letters. These 9 letters were exhibits to something. 10 MR. LIROT: They are. They're exhibits to our 11 response in opposition to the omnibus motion. 12 THE COURT: All right. So this is Number 12 13 and 13? 14 MR. LIROT: That is correct. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 MR. LIROT: I'll give the clerk Number 13. I 17 would like to refer to it for my questions. 18 MR. DANDAR: What is 13? 19 MR. LIROT: Number 13 is the April 11th letter. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Do you recognize those letters? 22 A Yes. 23 Q I know you recognize the confidentiality letter. 24 The April 10 letter from Mr. Dandar to Mr. Jonas? 25 A Yes, I do. 600 1 Q All right. And you recognize the April 11 letter 2 from Mr. Jonas back to Mr. Dandar? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And isn't it true in that letter he doesn't say 5 anything about setting the record straight? What he talks 6 about is dismissal of the case? 7 A Yes. That is what he says. 8 Q All right. Now, when you came up on, I guess it 9 was, April 5th, at that point in time, was that the day you 10 were served with the Armstrong suit? Was that in this 11 courtroom? 12 A Mmm, that might have been. That might have been. 13 You guys might recall better than me. 14 Q I wasn't here. 15 A Because it happened out in the hall. First 16 Mr. McGowan tried to accept service from me and he said he 17 couldn't give it to him because he wasn't a California 18 attorney or something, so he served me as I was getting into 19 the elevator. 20 Q Okay. On April 5 was there any discussion about a 21 meeting for the next day? 22 A No. 23 Q On April 6 -- 24 A I don't believe so. 25 Q -- on April 6 you said there was a meeting, 601 1 though, is that correct? 2 A Mr. Minton -- well, I don't remember if he called 3 him that night or the next day. I think it was the next 4 day. 5 But it certainly was something we discussed at 6 length that night. 7 Q This is the night after the contempt hearing here 8 in front of Judge Schaeffer? 9 A Yes. This is the night after a miracle happened, 10 as far as we were concerned. 11 Q And did you make any calls? Did you or Mr. Minton 12 call your attorneys, say, "Look, we need to get this 13 resolved? How did this meeting the next day evolve? How 14 did you get it set up?" 15 A Mmm, I'm pretty sure that Mr. Minton just called 16 Mr. Rinder. Either that night or the next day. I can't 17 remember which. But I'm pretty sure he just called him and 18 said, "I'm ready to start." 19 Q And this is after he had escaped, I guess, what he 20 was concerned with here in this courtroom? 21 A Well, you weren't there, were you? 22 Q No. 23 A Mmm, Judge Schaeffer was fairly clear that he had 24 skated on a technicality and that she was not going to stand 25 for any further contempt in her court, I think is what she 602 1 might have said. And she pretty much struck the fear of God 2 in Mr. Minton. 3 And we walked out of the courtroom and were really 4 just stunned that he hadn't been found guilty of contempt 5 and that she hadn't sent him to jail. I mean, we just kind 6 of felt like it was, you know, one of those brushes with 7 death. 8 Q Okay. But it was over. He skated, in your words? 9 A You know, he still had depositions to go through. 10 It wasn't over at all. 11 Q But he didn't have to lie at any of the other 12 depositions. He could have been honest? 13 A Well, he -- that's what he planned. That is what 14 he decided he was going to do. 15 Q He was going to be honest? 16 A Yeah. 17 Q He wasn't going to lie anymore? 18 A That's right. 19 Q Nothing to fear here anymore? 20 A Well, he didn't feel that way. 21 Q Why? Do you know? I mean, was there something 22 else eating at him? I guess he told you he was worried 23 about this contempt. There is one down, one to go, all we 24 have to worry about is Judge Baird? 25 A I don't think you understand what the situation 603 1 was. And, I mean, this is not a legal analysis of the 2 situation, but what was happening in our minds was -- Mmm -- 3 he was ordered back into another deposition in Judge 4 Schaeffer's case that hadn't happened yet and another one in 5 Judge Baird's case, and he was -- he was very afraid, and so 6 was I, about what was going to happen if he -- if he didn't 7 go to Scientology and start telling them what had been going 8 on. That was what he had been talking about with Mr. Dandar 9 and why he was asking Mr. Dandar to drop the case, so it 10 wouldn't come to all of this. He -- 11 Q But he -- forgive me if I seem tenacious here, but 12 he's already off the hook here, so he goes in, he's worried 13 about Judge Schaeffer putting him in jail, he skates on a 14 technicality. 15 So at that point all he has to do is be honest 16 from thereon out and he doesn't have any more problems in 17 this case. Judge Schaeffer will not put him in jail if he's 18 honest? 19 A That's right. But, you know, the other -- the 20 other thing that was happening on this whole thing was 21 basically this whole issue of -- of turning on -- on this 22 case, on -- on all of the people that -- I mean, you know, 23 the -- the ramifications of his coming in and, you know, 24 talking about, you know, what Mr. Dandar had been doing, 25 what he had been doing, what I'd been doing, for us to come 604 1 forward and start telling the truth about these things, 2 well, it's like one of the other people -- well, it's like 3 somebody said to Mr. Minton outside the courthouse the other 4 day, you know, "How could you do this? How could you do 5 this to the case?" 6 And Mr. Minton said, you know, "I'm telling the 7 truth now." 8 And she said, "What difference does the truth 9 make? We're trying to win a lawsuit against Scientology for 10 killing Lisa McPherson." 11 Well, you know, that is an attitude that is fairly 12 widespread. And we were basically contemplating -- I think 13 I said this the other day -- but what we were getting ready 14 to do was basically go start talking to what up until that 15 minute we and everybody else that we worked with had 16 considered to be the enemy. 17 You can say, "Well, why don't you just come in and 18 start telling the truth." But, I mean, he knew -- and this 19 is what they were referring to -- or Mr. Jonas was referring 20 to here when he said about bringing the dismissal of the 21 Lisa McPherson case. 22 We felt strongly that is what would be the effect 23 if we came forward and started talking about what was really 24 going on. And that is a fairly -- well, it was -- you know, 25 now I look at it differently. But at that time this was 605 1 just a -- you know, an unimaginable thing for us to do. It 2 was an unimaginable thing for us to do. 3 And on Saturday when we went over and talked to -- 4 talked to them, we were there for quite a while before 5 Mr. Minton said, you know, "I have got to go outside for a 6 break." And we went outside and he just started gagging at 7 the idea of what he was about to start doing. You know, it 8 was like, in our minds, it was so treasonous, so traitorous 9 to do that. And then we looked at each other and he said, 10 "Okay, let's go." Then he started telling them what was 11 really going on in the case. 12 Q And he talked about the check? Or had he already 13 talked about the check, the $500,000 May check? 14 A That was the day it started. 15 Q And he talked about the check. Then I guess he 16 said that -- I wasn't there -- 17 THE COURT: Excuse me one second, were there 18 two checks that had already been given? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, there were two checks. 20 THE COURT: By that time, the other $250,000 21 check had been written? I don't know, it had been 22 testified to one way or the other as the $500,000 23 check that had been written and there has been 24 testimony not mentioning that check. 25 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 606 1 THE COURT: So by this time we're talking about 2 two checks? 3 MR. LIROT: That's correct. 4 THE COURT: So there were two checks? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q So he's in there, he's testifying truthfully, he 8 doesn't feel good about it. 9 I guess the concern on his part was he didn't want 10 to look bad to I guess what you call the fraternity of 11 critics against Scientology? He didn't want to look bad to 12 those people? 13 A Well, no, I wouldn't say that was accurate. It 14 was -- what I said was it was an unimaginably tremendous 15 step, threshold for us to cross, to sit down with Mr. Rinder 16 and Ms. Yingling and start to tell them things that we knew 17 would -- 18 THE COURT: What you believed derailed the 19 wrongful death? 20 THE WITNESS: Right, what we believed. 21 A And these had been things going on, in order to 22 avoid derailing the wrongful death case, for a very long 23 time. And now we were crossing a threshold in which, you 24 know, the consequences were not really -- I mean, you know, 25 I look back on how we felt on April 6th and, you know, I was 607 1 a different person then than I am now, totally. And so was 2 Mr. Minton. 3 And that day we began to crawl out of the very 4 deep hole that we had dug for ourselves. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Hadn't you already crossed that line when you had 7 that meeting on the 28th and 29th of March? 8 A No. 9 THE COURT: You had not told them anything on 10 the 28th and 29th is what she's saying. 11 A We had not told them anything until the 6th. We 12 had not begun the process until April 6th. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Explain to me, your concern you are going to 15 derail the case, so to stop it from getting derailed, you 16 want it dismissed. I don't understand the difference? 17 A Well, you know, if the case -- Mr. Lirot, if the 18 case could have just been dismissed, none of this testimony 19 would have ever happened, none of these consequences would 20 ever have occurred to any of the players in this whole drama 21 that is now being played out. You know, we've been 22 threatened now; we've been -- we've been, you know, on a 23 daily basis Mr. Minton is being intimidated by one of your 24 people -- or actually two of your people outside of this 25 courthouse. You know, people that -- 608 1 Q Who? 2 A -- used to be very, very close comrades at arms 3 with us. 4 Q Who is intimidating him? 5 A Now -- 6 THE COURT: Wait a second. He asked you a 7 question. 8 Who is intimidating him? 9 THE WITNESS: Mmm, Jesse Prince. I'm not 10 saying me. I'm saying Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: Jesse Prince and Patricia 13 Greenway. And Patricia Greenway has repeatedly 14 tried to intimidate Mr. Minton to the point 15 yesterday she got in the elevator and started in on 16 him and upset him a lot. And that is how come 17 Mr. Howie had to come in today and ask the judge to 18 make that announcement that she made. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q So here is a guy who has been hounded for about 21 five years all over the world, hit over the head with sticks 22 or whatever else I read in that. 23 A Not by his friends. 24 Q It will speak for itself. 25 A Not by his friends. Not by people who used to be 609 1 his friends who are now furious with him because he's 2 telling the truth. It's a very -- it's a very -- Mmm, it's 3 a very unbelievable situation. 4 Q So all of the friends he had that Scientologists 5 allegedly chased away from him, that didn't bother him, 6 though, losing those friends didn't matter? It's just now 7 that he has a couple people disappointed in him because he 8 changed sides, that is breaking him down now? Is that your 9 testimony? 10 A No, that wasn't my testimony. 11 Q He's distraught at some point because people he 12 used to care about or worked with or shared beliefs are 13 disappointed in him? 14 A No, I said he was distraught because Ms. Greenway 15 cornered him in the elevator and started going at him. And 16 he felt very intimidated by that and told his attorney about 17 it and wanted his attorney to get the judge to get that to 18 stop. 19 Q And he's not made any contact with her 20 voluntarily? 21 A No. He hasn't. He hasn't called Ms. Greenway 22 since probably a year ago. 23 Q Okay. 24 A And if she told you differently, it's not true. 25 Q What about Mr. Prince? Have you contacted 610 1 Mr. Prince in the last two weeks? 2 A Yes. I did. I tried to reach him a couple of 3 times. And he's tried to reach us a few times, as well. 4 Q All right. So is this combative? Or are you guys 5 on good terms? 6 A No, when we were trying to talk to each other, it 7 wasn't combative at all. I mean, Jesse used to be a very, 8 very dear friend of Bob's and mine. 9 Q Is he still a dear friend? 10 A He seems to be -- Mmm, very upset with us for what 11 we're doing. 12 Q Well, let me put this in perspective for this 13 question. On April 6 you go in and that is the epiphany of 14 ethics that Mr. Minton has about giving out the information 15 about the checks and the agreement. Anything else? 16 A You know, I don't remember all of the different 17 things that were brought up, but I think it's covered in all 18 of our affidavits. I mean, you know, it's been a very long 19 process. 20 Q Well, you do this on the 6th. And you're afraid 21 that this is going to derail the case. If this is all done 22 on the 6th, why are you still demanding the case be 23 dismissed? You already told the truth at this point, right, 24 on April 6? 25 A Well, what I think I said was that we began the 611 1 process on April 6th. It's been a process -- 2 Q You began the process? 3 A Yes. It's been going on -- what is the date 4 today? Well, almost exactly a month at this point. 5 Q The process dealing with the issues you have 6 already testified about? 7 A Yes. 8 Q All right. So -- 9 A That culminated in our affidavits and -- 10 Q And I'll get to that in a second. 11 But, you know, on April 6th you have begun the 12 process. Yet on the 11th you are still writing letters 13 saying, "We insist this case has to be dismissed"? 14 THE COURT: Which exhibit is that? 15 MR. LIROT: Exhibit 13, the letter from 16 Mr. Jonas to Mr. Dandar dated April 11th. 17 A What? Mmm, I think Mr. Jonas was trying to 18 correct a lot of the inflammatory rhetoric in Mr. Dandar's 19 April 10 letter. I think that was the purpose of Mr. -- 20 MR. FUGATE: I object to that question 21 because -- 22 THE COURT: Sustained. 23 MR. FUGATE: -- there is no foundation. 24 THE COURT: Sustained because I'm not sure that 25 is what they're talking about. They're talking 612 1 about a conversation that occurred on March 29th 2 which was before April 6th. 3 MR. LIROT: Right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q The letter is after April 6, though, isn't that 6 correct? The April 11 letter? 7 A Well, it's in response to an April 10 letter from 8 Mr. Dandar. 9 Q But your attorney is still insisting that the case 10 be dismissed. Is that correct? 11 A No. No. Read the letter, Mr. Lirot. That is not 12 at all what it said. Mr. Jonas is correcting a lot of the 13 inflammatory rhetoric that Mr. Dandar used to describe the 14 meeting. 15 THE COURT: Listen to this, Mr. Lirot, maybe 16 you and I are not reading the same letter. It says, 17 "I received your letter of April 10, 2002 and have 18 the same comments. We did speak on March 29, 2002 19 and I did tell you Scientology had made certain 20 demands. I did not mention threats toward 21 Mr. Minton. One of them, that being one of their 22 demands on March 29th, 2002, was their request that 23 Mr. Minton bring about the dismissal of the Lisa 24 McPherson wrongful death case. I did not offer to 25 go into details about the discussions between 613 1 Mr. Minton and Scientology on the 29th," it doesn't 2 say that, but I'm suggesting to you, "and in fact 3 told you that through me Mr. Minton had entered into 4 a confidentiality agreement that would prevent 5 either Mr. Minton or me from going into details 6 about the discussion." 7 So I think in fairness that while it's 8 responding to this April 10th letter of 9 Mr. Dandar's, he is referring back to a phone call 10 that they had on March 29th which would have been 11 before April 6th. 12 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q And that letter talks about the dismissal of the 16 case. And your testimony was they just wanted to set the 17 record straight? 18 A Yeah. But I also testified that Mr. Rinder, I 19 believe, said that he felt if that happened, that if we set 20 the record straight, it would probably bring about the 21 dismissal of the wrongful death case. 22 Q That is not what the letter says, though? 23 A Well, the letter says what it says, Mr. Lirot. My 24 testimony is my testimony. That is what my memory is. 25 Q Okay. 614 1 A You know, Mr. Jonas obviously came away from the 2 meeting with a different impression. But that is allowable. 3 Q Now, after April 6 -- now, that was the day that 4 Mr. Minton had provided -- or given -- 5 A Began. 6 Q -- given a deposition? 7 A No. April 6 was a Saturday when we went over to 8 Mr. Pope's office and began the process of recanting. 9 THE COURT: Who was there on that day? 10 THE WITNESS: I believe it was just Mr. Rinder 11 and Ms. Yingling and Mr. Minton and myself. 12 THE COURT: No lawyers? 13 THE WITNESS: As players. Ms. Yingling is an 14 attorney, but we didn't have an attorney with us 15 that day. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Jonas was not with you? 17 THE WITNESS: Mmm, no. 18 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen -- 19 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he was down here 20 yet. 21 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen? 22 THE WITNESS: No, Mr. Rosen, I haven't sat down 23 with Mr. Rosen since March 29th. 24 THE COURT: Okay. So your recollection is 25 there were four of you present on that day? 615 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. And, you know, there 2 were -- there were other people in the office 3 building that would bring us water and -- you know, 4 but the principal players were I believe just the 5 four of us. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q I'm sorry, it was you, Mr. Minton, Ms. Yingling 8 and who else? Mr. Pope? 9 A Mr. Rinder. 10 Q You, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling? 11 A Yeah. I don't believe there was anybody else 12 there that day. 13 Q This was at Mr. Pope's office in Clearwater? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What time did this meeting start on April 6? 16 A Oh, I believe in the afternoon sometime. 17 Q Okay. And how did it begin? Was there any 18 discussion about what the terms of settlement would be? 19 A No. No. No. We didn't -- the word "settlement" 20 didn't come up. We weren't doing settlement. I told you 21 they had made it very clear in New York that there was no 22 settlement happening, it wasn't settlement. It was us 23 recanting. 24 Q For the purpose of settling? 25 A Well, as a first step toward being able to get to 616 1 that point. 2 THE COURT: What she has said, I believe, 3 Counselor, is what she has testified to, until such 4 time as she sets the record straight, it's her 5 testimony, they'll not talk settlement. The first 6 step, affidavit; second step, what we are going 7 through here. Third step, what is going on in Judge 8 Baird's. That is what she perceives is required for 9 her and for Mr. Minton to set the record straight. 10 Then they can say they have already done that, now 11 they want to sit down and talk about settling the 12 case. 13 Is that it? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: And that is her testimony. And I 16 tried to tell you, I don't know how many times I 17 have to tell you, it isn't going to change. You 18 might suggest the changes, you might even lead her 19 through some. You have got to -- something to show 20 her, she's wrong, you can do that. But otherwise, 21 you are going to say it and say it and say it. 22 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to get through the 23 meeting, Judge. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 617 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q So you get to this meeting. And basically what do 3 you start doing? What do you or Mr. Minton start doing? 4 A Mmm, I don't really remember how that meeting 5 started. Mmm, I don't -- I really don't remember what 6 happened before Mr. Minton and I went outside and he started 7 throwing up in the bushes. That sort of started it for me. 8 I don't remember what happened before that really. They 9 were -- 10 Q I'm sorry, go ahead and finish. 11 A We were talking -- I really don't remember. I can 12 tell you what happened after we took that break. 13 Q All right. Was there discussion going on before 14 Mr. Minton got sick? Had he started to talk about it? Or 15 was that before the meeting even began? 16 A No, that is the thing. He started talking 17 about -- you know, he started really telling them things 18 after that first break. 19 I really don't remember what happened right at the 20 beginning of that meeting. 21 Q Well, this is a very important meeting, wouldn't 22 you agree? 23 A It was probably the most important meeting I have 24 had so far in my life. 25 Q And clearly by your affidavit recanting all your 618 1 testimony, you remember all kinds of things. You can't 2 remember this meeting? 3 THE COURT: Counselor, asked and answered. 4 Move on to your next question. Make your argument 5 to me. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q What happened after Mr. Minton got sick? 8 A Well, then he came in and I believe the first 9 thing he told them about was the money. 10 Q Okay. 11 A And they were just like flabbergasted. 12 Q Did Mr. Minton bring any documents with him to 13 this meeting? 14 A No. I don't believe so. 15 Q All right. Did Ms. Yingling or Mr. Rinder have 16 any documents with them that they showed you or Mr. Minton 17 at the meeting? 18 A I don't think so in that first meeting. I don't 19 remember there being any documents in that meeting. 20 Q And this is the April 6 meeting? 21 A Yes, on Saturday afternoon. 22 Q At Mr. Pope's office? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Was there a court reporter there? 25 A No. 619 1 Q Was Ms. Yingling making any notes? 2 A In that first meeting? 3 THE COURT: The meeting on the 6th? 4 THE WITNESS: Yeah, yeah. But I'm -- perhaps 5 she was. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Was Mr. Rinder making any notes that you recall? 8 A I don't think he was. I don't think he was. 9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, might we take a 10 break? 11 THE COURT: Yes, it's a good time for our 12 afternoon break. We'll be in recess until about 13 five after 3. 14 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 15 (Proceedings continue in Volume 5.) 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 620 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 5 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Ominbus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 7, 2002. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Buiding 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25 621 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 MS. HELENA KOBRIN 12 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 13 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for David Houghton. 14 MR. LEE FUGATE and 15 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 16 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 17 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 18 MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 19 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor New York, New York 10003 20 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 21 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 22 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 23 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 24 Organization. 25 622 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Ms. Dell Liebreich Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 623 1 THE COURT: All right. Continue. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm going to clear up some 3 of the earlier inquiry. If I may approach? 4 THE COURT: You may. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm going to hand you a declaration 7 that you apparently signed on August 22nd, 2001. Do you 8 recognize that declaration? 9 A Let me just look it over for a minute. 10 Yes. 11 Q All right. Is that your signature on Page 3? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. And you signed this apparently under 14 penalty of perjury? 15 A Yes. 16 Q I have some questions -- let me draw your 17 attention to the first page, on Paragraph Number 4. 18 You say: "On August 2nd, 2001, I was contacted by 19 Mr. Minton and informed he had seen on the Internet the 20 posting attached to his response as Exhibit 3. Mr. Minton 21 was seriously upset by the invasion of his and his 22 children's privacy by Scientology or its agents and by 23 obviously illegal means by Scientology to obtain such 24 private information." 25 What was identified there as a response to Exhibit 624 1 3? What is that referring to? 2 A It says the Internet posting. 3 Q What was on the Internet? What was posted? 4 A As I said before, it was a list of the names of 5 four or five -- I don't remember how many -- doctors that he 6 had -- that either he or his children had seen in the past. 7 Q I guess that was my question. Why would it have 8 involved his children? 9 A What? 10 Q Why would this have involved his children's 11 privacy? 12 A Well, as I recall -- do you not have the posting? 13 Q I do not. No. 14 A Mmm, well, as I recall, as I said, one of the 15 doctors was someone that his children had also seen. 16 Q Your statement said it was obviously illegal. Why 17 did you conclude it was illegal, that this information was 18 obtained through illegal means? 19 A Mmm, well, Mr. Minton felt that it was at that 20 time -- that they must have obtained the information by some 21 sort of -- well, basically he just couldn't -- he didn't 22 know how they could possibly have that information. And so 23 he thought it must have been a phone tap or some other 24 mysterious way that they would have had that they could have 25 gotten this. 625 1 Q In this deposition you talk about Mr. Minton 2 being, again, distraught. Then on -- 3 THE COURT: Are you speaking of this affidavit 4 or declaration? 5 MR. LIROT: This declaration, Judge. 6 THE COURT: I believe you called it deposition. 7 MR. LIROT: Did I say deposition? I'm sorry. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Declaration. I'm sorry, misstatement. I 10 apologize. 11 In Paragraph 7 you say you encouraged Mr. Minton 12 to travel to Florida for his deposition. 13 The last sentence there says: "I was also aware 14 Mr. Minton had been in communication with a therapist during 15 the afternoon and evening. During the evening of August 2nd 16 I spoke to the therapist myself." 17 Was that Mr. Palermo -- or Ms. Palermo? 18 A Yes. 19 Q What did you ask her to do at that point in time? 20 A Well, as I recall the conversation I had with her, 21 I just asked her -- I mean, I told her that I knew she 22 couldn't tell me about what they had actually discussed, 23 but -- Mmm, the reason I'm hesitating, because I believe Mr. 24 Merrett also spoke to her. And I believe it was in the 25 conversation with Mr. Merrett that he -- I believe it was 626 1 Mr. Merrett who asked her to come forward. I don't recall 2 that I did that. 3 But, I mean, basically Mr. Merrett and I were very 4 concerned that Mr. Minton wasn't willing to get on the plane 5 to come to this deposition. And we weren't really sure what 6 to do about it. 7 And I think I was asking her if she thought there 8 was any way that he could come, even if it was the next 9 morning. I have spoken to her about this whole incident -- 10 THE COURT: I think you have answered his 11 question. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q What did you understand Ms. Palermo's credentials 15 to be? 16 THE COURT: Counsel, we have been over this 17 this morning. I don't want to repeat it. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q It was just the one therapist you talked to that 20 day? 21 A As I recall, just Diane. 22 Q Did you create this declaration and allege 23 anything that was false just to try to keep Mr. Minton from 24 having to come down for that deposition? 25 A No. No. I wanted him to come down to the 627 1 deposition very badly. And, in any case, this was a -- I 2 don't remember why this was even written, because it was 3 certainly long past the date when he had already not showed 4 up for the deposition. 5 Q Let me show you Paragraph 10. It says -- this is 6 on Page 3. "In the days following the foregoing events, I 7 repeatedly contacted the therapist, asking that the 8 therapist testify by affidavit, deposition or in person 9 concerning Mr. Minton's state of mind on August 2nd and the 10 therapist's recommendations concerning the deposition. 11 "It became clear to me that the therapist was well 12 aware of the vicious attack Scientology had mounted on the 13 mental health profession generally, and the horrifying 14 assaults launched on anyone, regardless of profession, who 15 actually opposes Scientology. The therapist was unwilling 16 to take the risks involved in being publicly named as a 17 mental health professional assisting an opponent of 18 Scientology." 19 Is that all true? 20 A Yes, it was all true. It was also true that she 21 herself was a former Scientologist, so she was completely 22 freaked out at the idea, and very angry with me and 23 Mr. Merrett, mostly Mr. Merrett, but also me, for putting 24 her in this kind of a position. 25 THE COURT: You have answered the question. 628 1 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry. 2 MR. FUGATE: What was the exhibit number on 3 that? 4 THE COURT: I have no idea. 5 MR. LIROT: 14. 6 THE COURT: Has it been introduced? 7 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. I would like to 8 introduce it. 9 THE COURT: Does the clerk have it? 10 THE CLERK: I have it. 11 THE COURT: Okay, Number 14. Are you sure it 12 was 14? I thought it was introduced this morning 13 with another number. 14 MR. LIROT: We didn't have it this morning. 15 THE COURT: But didn't you attach a number to 16 it? 17 MR. LIROT: No, Judge. 18 THE COURT: You didn't have it? Okay. Number 19 14 then. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Ms. Brooks, let me bring you back up to the 22 meeting on April 6. 23 On April 5 you are in front of Judge Schaeffer, 24 and your attorneys are here. You were represented by whom 25 on that date? 629 1 A I wasn't. I was just attending. I wasn't part of 2 the hearing. 3 Q Mr. Minton was here? 4 A Mr. Minton was -- was represented by Mr. Howie, I 5 believe, or -- yes. 6 Q And was there any mention to your counsel about 7 the meeting on the next day? 8 A My counsel wasn't there. I don't believe my 9 counsel was there. 10 Q Well, you had the meeting on the 6th. Did you 11 talk to your counsel, not so much being at the hearing, but 12 did you make a phone call, saying, "Hey, I'm going to meet 13 with --" 14 A I think I told you before, I don't believe we did. 15 Q Mr. Minton didn't contact anybody, either? 16 A Not that I recall. You could ask him, but I don't 17 recall that we did. 18 Q Why would you attend a meeting like this, 19 obviously an important meeting -- why would you attend a 20 meeting like this without counsel? 21 A Mmm, at that point, we kind of felt that we were 22 walking into the jaws of the dragon and the attorneys 23 wouldn't really be of much help. That was our state of mind 24 at the time. 25 Q So throughout all this you have counsel and you 630 1 are concerned with all these different legal issues, and you 2 go to probably the most important meeting of all without any 3 attorneys? 4 A Mmm, well, Ms. Yingling was there. 5 Q She's not your attorney. 6 A No, but you said without any attorneys. And that 7 wasn't the case. 8 Q Okay. I'm sorry, I must obviously have phrased 9 the question wrong. 10 So you go in with Scientology attorneys but you 11 don't have any of your own counsel at this very, very 12 important meeting? 13 A I believe I already told you who was at the 14 meeting. 15 Q Okay. 16 A I didn't name any of our attorneys, so ... 17 Q The reason you didn't bring any of your attorneys 18 is you didn't want anybody other than you people in that 19 room to know what really happened in that meeting. Isn't 20 that correct? 21 A That is incorrect. 22 Q Well, why didn't you bring any attorneys? 23 THE COURT: Asked and answered. Move on to the 24 next question. 25 631 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q How did the questioning start out on April 6? 3 A Mmm, as I said, I -- 4 THE COURT: That is asked and answered, too. 5 She said she doesn't know what went on in the 6 morning. If you're talking about the morning, she 7 can't tell you. She doesn't know. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q The break didn't refresh your memory, I take it? 10 You don't remember anything before Mr. Minton got sick? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: That is going to be another poor -- 13 poor record here. 14 I think you don't remember anything, yes, that 15 is true, you don't remember it? 16 THE WITNESS: I mean, that is correct, I do not 17 remember. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q All right. But your memory gets better after 21 Mr. Minton goes back inside. Is that correct? 22 A Well -- 23 Q What happened after you went back inside? 24 A Mr. Lirot, are you trying to say I'm trying to 25 cover up the threat part that happened at the beginning -- 632 1 THE COURT: That is exactly what he's trying to 2 say. But he'll have to make that argument to me. 3 And you really need to start in the afternoon and 4 what is it that you remember? 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q That will work for me. 7 A As I can just say for the record, there weren't 8 any threats. We went in there and started telling them 9 things that we had lied about. 10 THE COURT: Now, either you remember or you 11 don't. So if you remember, you need to tell us. If 12 you don't, then you need to say you don't remember 13 and he's going to fill in the blanks. That is how 14 lawyers work. They are allowed to draw reasonable 15 inferences from the evidence. A reasonable evidence 16 from that evidence that you can't remember, it is 17 something you don't want to remember and he'll fill 18 in the blanks. That is the way the law works. That 19 is okay. If you don't remember, I don't want you to 20 say you do if you don't. 21 Now you need to go to the afternoon and start 22 saying what happened there. 23 THE WITNESS: But, I mean, let me just be clear 24 here. I think we're talking about maybe a half 25 hour, forty-five minutes. We're not talking about 633 1 several hours' worth of blankness here. I mean, you 2 know, basically we had never sat down with these 3 people like this before. We were nervous -- 4 THE COURT: There really is no question before 5 you, ma'am. The question is do you remember what 6 was said. And you indicated you didn't. And 7 Mr. Lirot just seems to want to go back to this. 8 And I said asked and answered because you were asked 9 that at least three times and you said you didn't 10 remember. 11 Counsel, would you move on to your next 12 question? 13 MR. LIROT: Yes, I will. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What happened in the afternoon after Mr. Minton 16 had been sick? 17 A I think I already told you that, too. Do you want 18 me to say it again? 19 Q I don't think you have given me any specific 20 answer to that. 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: Well, I don't know if he really 23 went to the afternoon. 24 A Okay. I think the first thing that Mr. Minton 25 told him about was the money -- 634 1 THE COURT: The check. You're right. You did 2 tell us that. 3 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Okay. And was this the one check? Or two checks? 6 THE COURT: We have established it was two 7 checks by that time. Remember, we did that before 8 the break. 9 MR. LIROT: Wel, we established it was two 10 checks. I don't know she testified it was two 11 checks. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q All right, fair enough. 15 What else besides the two checks? 16 A Mmm, he talked about the agreement for the bulk of 17 the proceeds to go to the LMT. 18 Q What else? 19 A Mmm, I think he also talked about -- 20 THE COURT: Let me see if I can -- I need to be 21 a little -- elucidated a little bit. 22 There has been some testimony in the 23 depositions previously that the bulk of the money 24 was to go to LMT -- I'm sorry -- well, it was to go 25 to some organization, later LMT. 635 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: Then there had been a change in 3 that testimony. I had not gotten to that in my 4 readings. There is only so many hours in the day. 5 But I gather when I get to that one deposition, 6 there was no agreement. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: So now he's sitting down to discuss 9 this. And what is it he actually told him? I mean, 10 this wasn't something they had not heard, because 11 they'd heard him testify like that. Then they heard 12 this kind of changing testimony. 13 So now he's at a meeting. What does he say? 14 "I lied at this one deposition because ...?" Is 15 that what he said? 16 THE WITNESS: Basically, yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So when he's asking you what 18 was said, just you told them about the agreement 19 doesn't really help us much because they knew about 20 the agreement because there has been plenty of 21 testimony about the agreement. 22 THE WITNESS: Well, what I'm saying, he was 23 telling them about things that he had lied about. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And he was explaining to them why 636 1 he had lied. And he was telling them what 2 Mr. Dandar's involvement in that had been, you know, 3 when he was telling them that he needed to lie about 4 it, when he -- you know, when he was saying that -- 5 for the good of the case, this is what needs to 6 happen, you know, he was telling them. And, you 7 know, he was basically remembering this, as well as 8 he could, what had happened. 9 He especially remembered when Mr. Dandar had 10 cross-examined him to elicit the perjury. I 11 remember that, how these guys were like dumbfounded. 12 Sorry. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q When was that? When was that deposition? 15 A I don't know. This was in the meeting that we had 16 on April 6. 17 Q So there is a deposition where Mr. Minton said 18 there is no agreement -- 19 A At least one, more than one. 20 Q -- that he's going to come and bury his soul? 21 Hasn't he been on the Internet, on the radio, that 22 the Lisa McPherson trust is supposed to reap the bulk -- 23 A I think you are a little unclear about the 24 sequence here. Early on, when the agreement was first made 25 with Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich and the rest of the 637 1 family, Mr. Minton went on the radio, and he had posted 2 about it, and he was very excited about it. And, you know, 3 people at the LMT knew about it. It was happy, exciting 4 news and this kind of thing. 5 Q When was that meeting? 6 A What? 7 Q When was this first meeting when the family 8 members and Mr. Minton come to this purported agreement? 9 When was that? 10 A I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't know. 11 Q Can I take it to understand that he's on the 12 Internet talking about it? If we looked on the Internet, 13 that would give an indication when he's gleeful about this 14 meeting? 15 A I didn't say he was gleeful. 16 Q He's happy there was an agreement? 17 A He's very happy about it. 18 Q Then he goes on the radio and starts to talk about 19 it? 20 A I believe -- I believe there was a radio program 21 in which he talked about the agreement. Yeah. I don't 22 remember when it was. 23 Q And then at some point he's testifying under oath 24 and he says "There is no agreement." Is that true? 25 A Yes. 638 1 Q All right. So what is the sequence, as you 2 understand it? 3 A Well, I was trying to tell you. 4 Q All right. I'm sorry to have interrupted you. 5 I'll be quiet. 6 A The agreement was made. It was confirmed, 7 reaffirmed, several times. Then Scientology started to 8 basically characterize that agreement as, you know, 9 something negative about -- that was hurting the wrongful 10 death case. 11 And so Mr. Dandar told Mr. Minton that he needed 12 to back off from talking about this agreement, and then -- 13 and me. 14 And, Mmm, then, after that, we started -- I 15 mean -- 16 THE COURT: You want to talk about something 17 that will look odd on the record is that he told 18 Mr. Minton he had to stop talking about the 19 agreement, and you? Or he told you and Mr. Minton 20 to stop talking about the agreement? 21 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 22 THE COURT: Okay. You have to understand all 23 this stuff goes someplace and they don't have a clue 24 what I think you meant. They just know what it 25 says. 639 1 A What I meant to say was he told Mr. Minton and me 2 that we needed to back off about talking about this 3 agreement. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Well, where were you talking about the agreement? 6 A You know, it wasn't something that was a secret. 7 I mean, you know, it was something that we would talk about. 8 Q Had you ever testified that there was -- 9 A Any deposition, he wanted to make sure that I 10 wasn't going to say there was an agreement. 11 Q And -- 12 A And so, in the deposition, I said there wasn't. 13 First, I wanted to sort of get Mr. Moxon to go off, you 14 know, in another direction with an answer that was sort of 15 kind of misdirecting. But he came back and asked me the 16 same question again. Then I said no. 17 Q Okay. How would they know about any of the money, 18 though, before this meeting? 19 A They didn't. 20 Q They had no idea -- 21 A They didn't act like they had. 22 Q They didn't present you -- 23 A They were surprised. 24 Q They didn't give you a copy of any check at this 25 meeting on -- 640 1 A No. Mr. Lirot, you asked me that before, and I'm 2 telling you again, they did not give us a copy of the check. 3 Q All right. After these two issues were discussed, 4 what else was discussed? 5 A Mmm, I think that may have been all that we were 6 able to get to that day. We were exhausted. And like I 7 said, we felt like we had crossed a very, very serious 8 threshold, so we kind of -- you know, we just left that 9 afternoon and really sort of tried to get used to the fact 10 we had just done what we had just done. 11 Q How long was the meeting on the 6th? 12 A Mmm, I think perhaps two or three hours, perhaps. 13 Q So you talk about the checks. You talk about the 14 agreement. Mr. Minton gets sick. And that takes three 15 hours? 16 THE COURT: Do you have any idea how long, 17 counsel, you have been talking about the same thing? 18 Days. This is the fourth day of hearing and we are 19 not even close to being done with this one witness. 20 And that is really all we have been talking about of 21 any importance to this matter. 22 MR. LIROT: I understand that, Judge. But I'm 23 trying to get this witness to tell me exactly what 24 happened at these meetings. And for a 3-hour 25 meeting, a 30-second explanation leaves me a little 641 1 bit less than satisfied with the response. 2 Now, if she can't remember, and she states on 3 the record under oath she can't remember, I guess I 4 have to take it at that. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Do you remember anything else about the meeting on 7 April 6? 8 THE COURT: I guess what I'm trying to suggest, 9 counselor, is you would like for just the fact that 10 the one-liner or the two lines she's coming out with 11 to say, oh, that took thirty seconds. 12 What I'm trying to suggest, the way we've been 13 going over this, don't you imagine they asked some 14 of the same questions like you are asking? And 15 don't you imagine it was a give and take? "Wait a 16 second. What did you say? What happened next? 17 Wait a second. Let me see about this?" 18 Don't you suspect a lot of that was going on 19 about these things, just like it is in this 20 courtroom? 21 THE WITNESS: More so, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: But, I mean, I'm not saying it is 23 true or not. I'm saying this is what she's saying, 24 is that this was explored in some depth. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 642 1 THE COURT: They just didn't have you say two 2 lines and say, "Oh, thank you very much. See ya." 3 A No, this was very difficult for us to do and it 4 took a long time. And they were very patient about it, I 5 think. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right. What time did you get out of 8 Mr. Pope's office on the 6th, if you recall? 9 A Mmm, it was still light. I think perhaps four or 10 five in the afternoon. 11 Q And did you tell your attorneys anything that had 12 happened? Did you call them and say, "We just met with 13 Scientology and Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder and we've told 14 them this information"? Did you tell them later that day? 15 A Mmm, I think, as I recall, Mr. Jonas was coming 16 down the next day for the -- for the hearing with Judge 17 Baird. And I'm not sure if Mr. Howie was involved in this 18 or not. 19 But the attorneys became involved in it in 20 preparation for the -- for Judge Baird's hearing, because -- 21 and I'm not sure exactly who called who or how this all 22 happened, but I know that I believe it was on Sunday, the 23 next day, an agreement was reached between the attorneys 24 that led to Mr. Minton's recantation testimony in Baird's 25 courtroom on April 9, if Mr. Minton agreed to recant his 643 1 testimony on -- under oath, that Scientology would withdraw 2 their motion for contempt -- or motion for contempt or 3 motion for order to show cause or -- you know, in any case, 4 they would withdraw their -- their action that they were 5 taking against Mr. Minton to try to get him found in 6 criminal contempt. 7 Q On the 6th, did they ask how much money Mr. Minton 8 had put into the case? 9 A I believe that -- I believe so. 10 Q All right. And did they -- I mean, what was 11 Mr. Minton responding to those questions? 12 A Well, he was telling them that he had given 13 $750,000 more than he had testified to, or that Mr. Dandar 14 had reported to the Court. 15 Q On the 7th you had another meeting, on that 16 Sunday? 17 A Mmm, I'm not sure if there was a meeting or it was 18 just phone calls. But now the attorneys were involved in it 19 and it was planning for the contempt hearing, as I recall. 20 Because Mr. Jonas got down -- no, no, no, Mr. Jonas got 21 down -- oh, maybe Mr. Jonas didn't get down until Monday 22 morning and it was just Mr. Howie at that point. Then 23 Mr. Jonas was by phone. I can't remember exactly how it 24 came about. 25 But the end result of it was that Mr. Minton went 644 1 into court on Tuesday before Judge Baird and -- 2 Q That is April 9th? 3 A Yes. 4 Q So April 6 you have the meeting. April 7 you may 5 have had a couple phone calls? 6 A Mmm, I don't recall if Mr. Jonas was down there 7 yet or not. He might have not gotten down there until 8 Monday morning. So -- 9 THE COURT: Is your answer you don't know? 10 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I don't know. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q All right. 13 A I know it happened, but I'm not sure if it was 14 Sunday or -- you know, Monday after the deposition. But, in 15 any case, that planning was done and that agreement was 16 reached between the attorneys. 17 Q On the 7th? 18 A Or 8th. 19 Q Or 8th? The 8th was Mr. Minton's deposition, 20 right? 21 A Yeah. It must have been on the 7th. 22 Q All right. So this was all done by telephone? Or 23 was there actually a face-to-face meeting on Sunday, 24 April 7th? 25 A Mmm, I don't recall a face-to-face meeting on 645 1 Sunday. Certainly not with Mr. Jonas, because he was in 2 Boston. I believe we spoke by phone with Mr. Howie. 3 Q All right. On Monday, Mr. Minton had his 4 deposition taken, he gave a deposition? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Where did that occur? 7 A That occurred in the conference room in Wally 8 Pope's office. 9 Q Who was present for that deposition? 10 A Mmm, Mr. Jonas, Mr. -- I'm sorry, Mr. -- I think 11 Mr. Howie and Mr. Jonas were both there. Mr. Rosen. I was 12 there. Mr. McGowan, I think, was there. I think he was. 13 Why would he have been there? 14 Q Were you scheduled for deposition? 15 A No. But maybe -- I don't know. Maybe I was there 16 as the representative of the LMT -- 17 THE COURT: Does anybody care? Because I have 18 the deposition. I can tell you. 19 THE WITNESS: That would be a lot easier. 20 THE COURT: Do you really want to know? Or are 21 you testing her memory? Because, depending what you 22 are trying to do, I'll help you or not. 23 MR. LIROT: I'm not testing her memory. 24 THE COURT: Then Mr. Rosen was present for 25 plaintiff. Thomas Dandar, of Dandar & Dandar, was 646 1 there for the defendant. Tom McGowan was there for 2 LMT. For the witness, Bruce Howie was there. Also 3 present: Stacy Brooks, Lara Cartwright and Allan 4 Cartwright. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Before the deposition began, was there a 7 discussion about Mr. Minton bearing his soul, or relating 8 the information that was deemed important on April 6? 9 A I'll correct the record so it doesn't -- no one 10 gets the impression that Mr. Minton was bearing his soul. 11 THE COURT: Don't do that, counselor. Come on. 12 You know -- 13 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 14 THE COURT: You know, we're moving too slow, so 15 don't editorialize. Just get to it. 16 MR. LIROT: All right. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q After Mr. Minton related the information on 19 April 8 -- on April 8, Mr. Minton has given a deposition. 20 Before the deposition began, was there any discussion about 21 the meetings of the prior couple of days? 22 A I don't recall anything substantive. I think he 23 just came in and sat down and started. 24 Q Okay. 25 A Well, Mr. Jonas probably met with Mr. Minton. But 647 1 I don't believe I was present for that. 2 Q Do you know if Mr. Minton met with any members of 3 Scientology without you being present? 4 A Not that I know of. 5 Q Now, obviously the deposition of the 8th, of 6 Mr. Minton, speaks for itself. After the deposition, what 7 happened? 8 A Mmm, well, the next day was the hearing. 9 Q Were there any more meetings after the deposition? 10 Did you meet with Scientology after that deposition? 11 MR. WEINBERG: You mean on that day? 12 A I don't -- 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q On April 8. Yes. 15 A I don't think so, because Mr. Jonas was there. I 16 think we had dinner with him. Mmm, I think we had dinner 17 with Mr. Jonas that night, and that was it. 18 Q Did Mr. Minton get together with Mr. Rosen and 19 rehearse his testimony for the hearing before Judge Baird on 20 the 9th? 21 A I don't think so. Not that I know of. 22 Q Do you know if Mr. Minton met with Mr. Rosen after 23 the deposition but before the hearing on April 9? 24 A Not that I know of. 25 Q Was there any meeting the morning of April 9th 648 1 between Mr. Rosen and Mr. Minton? 2 A Not that I know of. 3 Q Now, you were in attendance at the contempt 4 hearing with Judge Baird, correct -- 5 A Yes. 6 Q -- on April 9, 2002? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And I guess there was a motion that Mr. Minton be 9 found not to be in contempt. What do you recall about that? 10 THE COURT: Why can't the record speak for 11 itself, unless you want to question her about 12 whether she felt that was in accord with what had 13 been agreed on or something like that? 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, is it safe to say Judge Baird didn't let 16 Mr. Minton off the hook that day? Is that a safe analysis? 17 A No. I wouldn't actually -- that is not what I 18 would say. 19 Q All right. How would you phrase it? 20 A Mmm, well, Mr. Rosen stood up and told Judge Baird 21 that he wanted to call Mr. Minton to the stand. He called 22 Mr. Minton to the stand. 23 THE COURT: This is going to take way too long. 24 At the end of the day, did Judge Baird say, 25 "Fine, thanks so much, everything is over"? Or did 649 1 Judge Baird say, "I haven't decided yet what I'm 2 going to do about this and I'm going to take it 3 under advisement but I'm not going to necessarily 4 dismiss the contempt or not sentence Mr. Minton, I'm 5 going to think about it"? 6 THE WITNESS: Well, at the end of the day, he 7 said, "I'm going to take it under advisement." 8 But then it was explained to me and Mr. Minton, 9 by our counsel, that if Judge Baird was going to 10 find him guilty of criminal contempt, he would have 11 sentenced him there, because he would not be sending 12 out a sentence by mail. 13 So our understanding was that Judge Baird was 14 not going to find Mr. Minton guilty of criminal 15 contempt, that he might, at a later date, decide to 16 sanction him for civil contempt, or, you know, 17 whatever else you do to a person that -- 18 THE COURT: What lawyer told you that? 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Howie. And -- at least 20 Mr. Howie. Maybe Mr. Jonas, too. 21 THE COURT: What is going to happen if Judge 22 Baird said, "I'm ready now to decide, Mr. Minton, I 23 want you in court at ten o'clock in the morning"? 24 THE WITNESS: Well, then my understanding would 25 be wrong. 650 1 THE COURT: When a judge takes something under 2 advisement, you take something under advisement in a 3 criminal case or a civil case, you bring all of the 4 parties back and make a decision. So I would 5 suggest if you think that Judge Baird has decided 6 not to sentence Mr. Minton in whatever kind of 7 contempt procedure was going on, that is bad advice. 8 At least my reading of it is Judge Baird has it 9 under advisement until he makes a decision. 10 THE WITNESS: That is something I was wrong 11 about. 12 THE COURT: And, frankly, your counsel may be 13 right. As I read that, the judge reading what 14 another judge said, Judge Baird was suggesting he 15 had not yet decided what he wanted to do about this. 16 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, before the hearing on the 9th on -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, Judge Baird had just been 20 presented with a witness who said "I committed 21 perjury." 22 And then somebody says, well, whatever it was 23 that Mr. Rosen said. 24 And Judge Baird said, "Well, I'm going to think 25 about this." 651 1 And I think that is exactly what he wanted to 2 do is put all this in perspective and decide what he 3 wanted to do. 4 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: It's quite unusual, let me say, 6 quite unusual, for a judge to have a witness come in 7 and recant and say, "I have committed perjury." I 8 have been on the bench over 20 years, and I don't 9 know if it ever happened before. It probably has, 10 but it's most unusual. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: So it's not something you are just 13 ready to deal with like, oh, I can deal with that. 14 I either want to do this or I want to do that. I 15 don't know. The judge says I have to think about 16 this a little bit. 17 THE WITNESS: All right. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Where were you and Mr. Minton staying on the 7th 20 and 8th for the hearing? 21 A Mmm, I believe we were at the Adams Mark Hotel on 22 Clearwater Beach at that time. 23 Q Was there a large stack of documents delivered to 24 you of Mr. Minton's depositions that were circled with areas 25 that they wanted Mr. Minton to recant? 652 1 A I don't know that anything was delivered. 2 Q Okay. 3 A We were given a lot of documents, at our request. 4 Q When? 5 A I'm not sure that they were delivered. Perhaps 6 there were some that were delivered. But we certainly asked 7 for a lot -- I mean, we asked for copies of all our 8 depositions. We asked for, you know -- you know, I mean, 9 there has been a lot of testimony in this case. We asked 10 them to -- well, and Mr. McGowan was present at one meeting 11 where we were given a number of different deposition 12 transcripts to go through, with parts of them highlighted -- 13 Q Who -- 14 A -- of testimony -- 15 Q Go ahead and finish. 16 A -- of testimony that, based on what our 17 conversations with them had been, might be something that we 18 had to recant, in other words. 19 Q So you asked them to provide you with all of the 20 documents to show where you had lied in the past so you 21 could make -- 22 A No. 23 Q -- sure -- how would they know? 24 A Well -- 25 Q How did you -- what was the request for the 653 1 documents? Let me phrase the question that way. 2 A Well, as I testified earlier, we found ourselves 3 in an odd position of having to ask Scientology for copies 4 of our depositions or whatever other documents we needed 5 because we couldn't go to Mr. Dandar. Mr. Merrett doesn't 6 keep good records. And the only place we could really go 7 for a full record was to Scientology, is how we felt, unless 8 we went to court ourselves or, you know, whatever we had at 9 the LMT we could use, but it wasn't a full -- it wasn't a 10 full record. And -- 11 Q Why couldn't you go to Mr. Dandar? 12 A Well, we couldn't go to Mr. Dandar because of what 13 we were doing. Mr. Dandar had already told us he never 14 wanted to speak to us again because we would give him a 15 heart attack. And we just didn't feel that there was good 16 relations with him any longer. So it was our -- 17 THE COURT: Counsel, don't you think you and I 18 can both understand, based on her testimony that she 19 told Mr. Dandar she was going to go in and tell that 20 she lied, Mr. Minton will say he lied, and they were 21 both going to say Mr. Dandar lied, do you think they 22 would then feel comfortable picking up the phone, 23 saying, "Hey, by the way, would you help us to find 24 all of the places that we can fix this?" 25 Do you think Mr. Dandar would be real excited 654 1 about helping them? 2 MR. LIROT: No, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I don't, either. So, I mean, this 4 is kind of obvious, some of this stuff. 5 MR. LIROT: All right. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Well, why couldn't you just prepare an affidavit 8 that says, "This is the truth, and anything we have said 9 that doesn't coincide with this, we withdraw"? 10 A Well, that is what we ended up doing. But it 11 required a lot of going back and reviewing what we'd said. 12 Because as I said, there has been a lot of testimony in this 13 case. It's been very stressful. It's been, Mmm, very -- 14 you know, it's been over a long period of time. And we 15 needed to refresh our memories. 16 Q Refresh your memories as to what? 17 A As to what we testified about. 18 Q You weren't sure what you'd lied about? 19 A That is correct. I mean, I went through many of 20 these documents with my attorney, to make sure, when I did a 21 recantation, it was complete. There were a few things we 22 included that were very minor things. There were some 23 things that were very, very major things. But my attorney 24 wanted to make sure that I was not leaving anything out. 25 And, you know, I didn't remember each little thing that I'd 655 1 testified about. And I needed to remember. 2 Q Well, I think your testimony throughout has been 3 it's just this agreement and these checks? 4 THE COURT: Counselor, I'm really not going to 5 listen to this. The deal is if I was going to go in 6 and recant, and you would go in and recant, you 7 would want to see what you said when you said it so 8 if you were asked, you could point to it. I mean, 9 this is what they wanted to do. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Well, when is the first time you saw this -- you 13 got highlighted documents, is that correct? 14 A Mmm, there was a meeting at Mr. Pope's office with 15 Mr. McGowan, I believe Mr. Fugate was present -- well, 16 Mr. McGowan and I and Mr. Fugate had a conversation, and 17 Mr. McGowan was then provided with quite a number of 18 documents that were highlighted. 19 Q Okay. Who highlighted them? 20 A I'm not sure. I didn't. 21 Q You didn't. Mr. McGowan didn't. So someone in 22 Scientology or one of their counsel, is that a safe 23 assumption? 24 A I assume so. And then I had another -- I had 25 another set made, and I then highlighted -- I did similar 656 1 highlighting on another set of documents so that my attorney 2 could have a set, as well. 3 Q So how would they know what depositions to go 4 through to find all of the little subtleties that you are 5 not sure whether you lied about or not? 6 A Well, the only thing that was highlighted were 7 things that we'd already discussed that would -- so that -- 8 you know, so I could go straight to the parts of my 9 testimony that covered the things that we already talked 10 about. 11 Then I had to go through the rest of the testimony 12 and make sure that there wasn't anything else. 13 Q Do you still have the highlighted excerpts of your 14 depositions and other testimony? 15 A I don't. My attorney and I discussed that, you 16 know, in the last couple of days. And I -- he wasn't able 17 to find them, either. And I think perhaps -- perhaps there 18 is a copy of them at his office, but I think I gave mine -- 19 I think I returned mine to the Scientologists. 20 Q When is the first time you saw a stack of 21 highlighted documents? 22 A Mmm -- sheesh. It might have been three weeks ago 23 that we had that meeting. I'm not sure. 24 THE COURT: Can you relate that to the 25 different meetings that you had? In other words, 657 1 was it before -- was the court testimony on the 8th? 2 MR. DANDAR: 9th. 3 MR. LIROT: 9th, Judge. 4 THE COURT: Was it before -- I presume it was 5 before the court testimony. 6 THE WITNESS: You mean on April 9? 7 THE COURT: Right. 8 THE WITNESS: No, I believe it was after that, 9 because all that happened prior to the court 10 testimony on April 9th was that Mr. Minton prepared 11 to testify about the two checks that he lied about 12 and -- 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 THE WITNESS: -- and also -- 15 THE COURT: So this was subsequent to when you 16 prepared the affidavit, sometime between April 9 -- 17 THE WITNESS: And now. Well -- 18 THE COURT: Well, your affidavit, I presume 19 what it was used for, your affidavit was dated 20 April 29. 21 THE WITNESS: Right, so within that 20-day 22 period. I don't remember exactly when. I mean, 23 we've been doing this, you know, nonstop, pretty 24 much, for a month. This is all we do. I haven't 25 been home. We're living out of a suitcase. I 658 1 mean -- 2 THE COURT: We don't want to hear you complain, 3 ma'am, to tell you the truth. If anybody gets to 4 complain, it's those of us who aren't responsible 5 for this. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I'm not 7 complaining. I'm just -- 8 THE COURT: I understand. 9 THE WITNESS: -- you know. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q When did the discussion about David Miscavige come 12 up? Was that on the 7th? Was that during the meeting of 13 the 7th? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that. I 15 don't know there is a foundation for that. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Well, all right. Let me ask you this -- 19 THE COURT: You can ask, did -- was there a 20 discussion and, if so, then you can ask what was the 21 date. 22 MR. LIROT: All right, Judge. I'm jumping 23 ahead. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q There is a lot of discussion about David Miscavige 659 1 and those issues in your affidavit, isn't that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And when did that come up? 4 A Mmm, when did it first come up? Early on. I 5 think early on in this process. You know, I told them about 6 my role in -- in creating this overall strategy about going 7 after Miscavige because -- oh, yeah, yeah, because it was 8 about the meeting. We were talking about this meeting where 9 Mr. Dandar said it never happened. And then -- and it came 10 up with regard to that, because I was explaining why it was 11 that I was a proponent of adding him as a party. And then I 12 was given some background as to how that came about. 13 Q You remember Mr. Minton testifying about such a 14 meeting in front of Judge Baird, right? 15 A Mmm, I know that he testified about two things. 16 Perhaps -- perhaps the meeting was the other thing, yeah. 17 Q And then you are aware he changed that testimony 18 later, he changed his description of the place of the 19 meeting or the date of the meeting, but it changed. Are you 20 aware of that? 21 A I -- I don't remember that he did that. But it's 22 clear in my mind what happened. 23 THE COURT: What are you talking about? 24 Because I'm not sure what you are talking about. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think during Judge Baird's 660 1 hearing, Mr. Minton testified about the so-called 2 secret meeting. And his testimony was later 3 changed. He testified, I guess, about a building 4 with characteristics, and -- I guess the easiest way 5 to put it, he testified he went up some elevator or 6 stairs to see Mr. Dandar at a certain date. And 7 Mr. Dandar -- 8 THE COURT: I'm not asking for details. 9 MR. LIROT: Right. 10 THE COURT: But you are saying it changed in 11 front of Judge Baird, he said one thing on direct 12 and one thing on cross? Are you saying it changed 13 from Judge Baird to his affidavit? What are you 14 saying? 15 MR. LIROT: That is exactly correct, we're 16 saying that -- 17 THE COURT: Which? 18 MR. LIROT: -- Mr. Minton testified one way in 19 front of Judge Baird, and later it changed. 20 THE COURT: In the affidavit? So now -- 21 MR. LIROT: Correct. 22 THE COURT: -- you are asking this witness 23 whether she's aware of that? 24 MR. LIROT: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And your answer to that is? 661 1 THE WITNESS: My answer to that is -- 2 THE COURT: It's very simple. Are you aware 3 the testimony changed? And if you aren't, you 4 aren't. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q Okay. Who changed that testimony? 8 A Well, Mr. Minton changed it. 9 Q Based on whose urgings? 10 A Mmm, actually, based on a conversation that he and 11 I had regarding where the meeting happened, because I 12 remembered very clearly that it happened at the new office 13 on Kennedy. And he -- I think he had thought that it had 14 happened at the old office. He had forgotten, or whatever. 15 Anyway, we discussed that. And he said, "Oh, 16 yeah." 17 Q So that, just spontaneously from you, said, "Oh, 18 you got it wrong, we want to make sure we get it right." Is 19 that what happened between you and Mr. Minton? Nobody else 20 had any input into that? 21 A I didn't mean to say it was spontaneous. We were 22 discussing the meeting. 23 THE COURT: I think what he's trying to suggest 24 is was this you somehow saw his testimony and you 25 realized it was wrong? Or was this suggested to you 662 1 or to him from someone from the Church of 2 Scientology? 3 THE WITNESS: No. I was there for his 4 testimony. And I said I think it happened -- in 5 fact, I know it happened at the new office. And I 6 don't think that they moved offices until probably 7 the fall. 8 THE COURT: It wasn't contemplated that you 9 were going to be a witness in front of Judge Baird? 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 THE COURT: So you were not a party to the rule 12 then? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, I was a -- I was a party in 14 the breach. 15 THE COURT: No -- 16 THE WITNESS: So -- 17 THE COURT: When the rule is invoked, all 18 witnesses are asked to step outside. You said you 19 heard Mr. Minton's testimony. So I presume you were 20 not excluded under the rule. 21 THE WITNESS: Right, I wasn't, because I was a 22 party. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, I still want to nail down the date 663 1 that you got these documents. So it was after the 9th, 2 before the submission of, I guess, the affidavit you signed 3 on the 29th. 4 Do you remember where you were when you got them? 5 A Yes, in Mr. Pope's office. 6 Q Do you remember what day that would have been? 7 A I'm sorry, but I don't. As I said, Mr. McGowan 8 was there. Mr. Fugate was there. I don't remember what 9 date it was. 10 Q All right. Did you go through any depositions -- 11 I mean, as I understand it, you wanted to get a hold of the 12 documents so you could review them to find out where your 13 testimony would have been inaccurate. Is that how these 14 documents were produced? 15 Did you go through a whole large stack of 16 depositions and say "Well, let's get this page and let's 17 highlight this page"? Is that how these documents came to 18 be? 19 A No. 20 Q Okay. Who put them together then? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q So somebody went through your depositions and 23 found out, for themselves, what they thought they wanted to 24 change as far as your testimony was concerned? 25 A No. No. 664 1 THE COURT: That would be a nice argument for 2 you to make in front of me. I don't think you're 3 going to get very far making that in front of her. 4 MR. LIROT: I understand. 5 THE COURT: You are really extending this way 6 beyond what it needs to be extended. 7 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: I don't know whether you think I'm 9 so dumb I'm not picking up on some of these things, 10 but I assure you I am. 11 MR. LIROT: I don't think you are dumb by any 12 stretch. 13 THE COURT: Then don't ask this witness three 14 or four times. I write it down the first time you 15 ask. 16 MR. LIROT: All right. 17 THE COURT: Look here (indicating). "She was 18 presented with a set of depositions and they were 19 highlighted." "And they were highlighted," 20 presumably by someone from Scientology with their 21 lawyer.* 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Mr. Fugate handed me, I guess, a letter dated 24 April 15th, from his office, to Mr. McGowan. And it says: 25 "In advance of our scheduled discussions this afternoon 665 1 among Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks and representatives of the 2 Church of Scientology, this is to advise you that all 3 discussions to date are required to be kept strictly 4 confidential by the parties and by their counsel, as set 5 forth in the attached confidentiality agreement. 6 "We would appreciate your acknowledging your 7 agreement that the terms set forth in the attached letter 8 from Steven Jonas to Samuel Rosen will apply to all 9 discussions in which you participate. Please signify your 10 agreement by signing the letter." 11 Mr. McGowan signed this. 12 Does that refresh your memory? Were the documents 13 delivered with this letter? Do you know? 14 A Yes. 15 THE WITNESS: Thank you, Mr. Fugate. 16 MR. FUGATE: I gave you that for the date. 17 MR. LIROT: April 15, 2002. I think I -- 18 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. 19 THE WITNESS: I'll rely on the date of this 20 document. 21 THE COURT: Do we have this document? 22 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, where I was reading 23 from is Mr. McGowan's document production that he 24 gave to the Court, whatever year that was. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 666 1 MR. WEINBERG: I think that was a little 2 sarcastic. 3 THE COURT: I thought it was. And I was 4 debating whether to say anything, and then I agreed 5 with it. 6 MR. FUGATE: Let me apologize. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q So I'm trying to get all these dates that you had 10 these meetings nailed down. 11 So we have the 15th the documents were presented. 12 Was there a meeting on the 15th? 13 A Mmm, according to that letter, it happened later 14 that day. As I said, I'll have to rely on the date in the 15 letter because -- you know, I can tell you that it happened 16 sometime in the last 20 -- or, you know, sometime between 17 April 9 and April 29. And if that letter stated April 15, 18 then that is probably when it happened. 19 Q Okay. Now, on the 15th you got these documents. 20 I think attached -- or introduced was, I think -- Exhibit 73 21 was the letter Mr. Dandar sent to you and your husband, 22 Vaughn, at some point back in, I guess, 1997. 23 A What? 24 THE COURT: Was there a 73? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 667 1 THE COURT: I'm not sure I have a 73. 2 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think Mr. Fugate 3 introduced Number 73. 4 THE COURT: Okay. I think that is right. 5 MR. FUGATE: I couldn't tell you, Judge. But 6 I'll accept the representation. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Are you familiar with the document I'm speaking 9 about right now? 10 A Mmm -- 11 THE COURT: Could you show it to her? 12 MR. LIROT: Could I approach and let her 13 refresh her memory, Judge? 14 THE COURT: You can. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Here you go. 17 THE COURT: When did we break last? 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Seems like a long time ago. 19 MR. McGOWAN: Only an hour. 20 THE COURT: Only an hour? Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: I was hoping you might say we 22 were going to take another one. 23 THE COURT: Well, you know, I am, because I 24 said I would quit at five today. So there is no 25 point in my going for a half hour, breaking for 668 1 fifteen minutes, coming back for fifteen minutes and 2 quitting for the day. So let's take a quick break, 3 ten-minute break, we'll come back and go until five 4 and then we'll quit for the day. All right? 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 6 THE COURT: Okay, you may be seated. And let's 7 continue. 8 MR. LIROT: All right. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Ms. Brooks, I was looking at my notes here. I 11 asked you if there had been a meeting after the meeting on 12 the 7th or the 8th, after the deposition on the 8th, to get 13 Mr. Minton prepared for his testimony on the 9th in front of 14 Judge Baird. 15 Was there a meeting before the deposition to get 16 Mr. Minton prepared for the testimony that Mr. Rosen 17 elicited from him -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- on the 9th? 20 A Yes. 21 Q There was a meeting before? 22 A Yes. Mr. Jonas, Mr. Howie and Mr. Minton met, and 23 I assume they met to prepare him for the deposition. 24 Q No. I mean, did Mr. Rosen meet with them at that 25 point in time -- 669 1 A Oh, not that I -- 2 Q -- to prepare Mr. Minton for the testimony in 3 front of Judge Baird? 4 A No. Not that I know of. 5 Q Was there anything provided to Mr. Minton by 6 Mr. Rosen, or anybody associated with them, to prepare him 7 for the hearing on the 9th? 8 A Mmm, I don't know, but I think you would have to 9 ask Mr. Minton. 10 Q Okay. 11 A Not that I -- that I know. 12 Q Can I call it a stack of documents, the deposition 13 excerpts and things like that you were asked to recant? Was 14 it a stack? 15 A Okay, but you are mischaracterizing what it was. 16 I wasn't given a stack of documents that I was asked to 17 recant. That is not what happened, Mr. Lirot. 18 Q Okay, tell me what it was. 19 A Let me tell you what happened. I requested from 20 the Scientologists deposition transcripts that covered the 21 points that I had already brought up. And I was given those 22 with those portions highlighted. It was not -- it was at my 23 request. It wasn't something I was told, "Okay, you have to 24 recant this, you have to recant that." That is not what 25 happened. 670 1 And some of the things that were highlighted -- 2 Mr. McGowan and I went over each one of the highlighted 3 portions. And some of them I have lied about. And some of 4 them I have not. So some of the highlighted things were 5 correctly things that were pointed out to me that I needed 6 to address. And some of the highlighted things were things 7 that were not correctly pointed out to me that I needed to 8 address. And at all times I was the one who decided what I 9 needed to address and what I didn't, because I was the one 10 who knew what was the truth and what was not. 11 Q Okay. 12 A So ... 13 Q Did Mr. Minton receive a similar package of 14 documents or deposition testimony or other things that he 15 was asked to correct? 16 A Again, he -- these are not documents he was given 17 and asked to correct, Mr. Lirot. Please stop 18 mischaracterizing it that way. Nobody asked us to do 19 anything. 20 We asked them to provide us with documents, and we 21 decided what needed to be dealt with and what didn't need to 22 be dealt with. We were not asked to recant anything by 23 anyone. 24 Q Okay. Did Mr. Minton receive a stack of similar 25 documents? 671 1 A Yes. 2 Q Was that the same day? Was that the 15th? I 3 guess April 15th was the day you received your documents. 4 A I believe it was at the same time. 5 Q Okay. Had he received any documents, prior to 6 that date, from the Church of Scientology relative to his 7 testimony? 8 A I don't know that he had received them. But he 9 had -- he had looked at documents prior to that time, and so 10 had I. 11 Q Okay. Who provided you with those documents? 12 A Mmm, either Mr. Rinder -- well, Mr. Rinder, pretty 13 much. 14 Q When did that occur? 15 A Mmm, well, in a -- you know, prior to that, I 16 don't remember the exact dates, but we met with them a 17 couple of other times to get documents. 18 Q And is that -- 19 A Or to go over documents, I should say. 20 Q -- before the 15th? 21 A I believe so. As I said, this has been an ongoing 22 process for the last month. 23 Q All right. How was it Mr. Rinder provided you 24 with documents? Were they hand-delivered? Did he bring 25 them over -- 672 1 A No. No. No. In other words, what happened on 2 April 15th is we were actually given a set of documents that 3 we'd asked for. 4 Prior to that, we were going through things, 5 deciding what we needed to be looking at and things like 6 that. So prior to that, we had spent quite some time just 7 going through documents. 8 Q All right. Where did you get the documents you 9 were going through? 10 A From Mr. Rinder. 11 Q So you are given a set of documents by Mr. Rinder, 12 at your request, to go through to set the record straight? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Yes? All right. And you are going through all 15 these documents. Then you get another set of deposition -- 16 series of deposition excerpts. I don't understand why you 17 don't get it all at once. Can you explain to me the 18 sequence and why the sequence wasn't delivered all at the 19 same time? 20 A Well, what I'm -- what I'm trying to say is that 21 when we finally got those -- the excerpts of the depositions 22 that we took away with us to work on the recantations, it 23 was sort of a culmination of a research project, I guess you 24 could say, that we -- that we had been going through in 25 order to ascertain what would be relevant for us to deal 673 1 with. I think that would be the best way to put it. 2 Q Okay. 3 A And then at that point we actually began the 4 process of writing the affidavit and also the recantation. 5 Let me just look at my recantation affidavit for 6 the date on that. And that will -- 7 Q I believe you did two. One, I think, was on 8 April 29th was the longer one. 9 A That was the long one. 10 Q I think that has been marked as Exhibit 72 to the 11 omnibus motion. 12 A Okay. My initial recantation affidavit was signed 13 on April 17th. 14 Q Right. Is that an exhibit? I don't know. 15 A Are you asking me? 16 Q I'm -- 17 A I don't know. 18 MR. DANDAR: What? 19 MR. LIROT: A rhetorical question. I need to 20 look at my exhibit table here. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q So you filed -- at least on April 18 Mr. McGowan 23 submitted a notice of filing in the other case, in the 24 breach case? 25 A Okay. But I think it was submitted in both cases, 674 1 if I'm not mistaken. 2 Q Okay. 3 A So -- 4 THE COURT: Is there a question? 5 MR. LIROT: She seems to be looking at her 6 notes, Judge. I'm trying to see -- 7 A I'm just rereading this recantation. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q You did two, right? You did two recantations, 10 right? 11 A I did a short one, which was just a simple -- 12 Q Just a simple one, right? 13 A It seems to me that there was something -- it 14 seemed to me that there was a hearing or something that this 15 was needing to be finished for, but I don't know. 16 Q So let me just get my time frame here right. On 17 the 15th, you get all of the documents that you have asked 18 for so that you can set the record straight. And then you 19 set about writing your affidavit. Right? 20 A Well, my attorney and I. 21 Q Your attorney and you, Mr. McGowan and you, worked 22 on your first affidavit recanting testimony? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And that is the one that I guess bears the date of 25 April 17, 2002? 675 1 A Yeah. 2 Q All right. Did Ms. Yingling have any input into 3 this first affidavit? 4 A Mmm, no. 5 Q Okay. 6 A No. 7 Q And this first affidavit, I take it, is what you 8 felt was important to set the record straight. Right? 9 A Well, it was more a matter of I had never done a 10 recantation before. And Mr. McGowan kind of helped me put 11 this together. 12 I also was present when Mr. Howie was going over 13 some points about how to do this. 14 There was a hearing that this needed to be done 15 for. I can't remember exactly what it was. But I believe 16 there was. There was -- 17 THE COURT: I think you are well past the 18 question. I think the question was whether or not 19 this was an affidavit you and your lawyer put 20 together because it was, you felt, what was 21 important. And I think you said yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q This is Affidavit Number 1? 24 A Yes. 25 Q The four-pager that you apparently signed on 676 1 April 17th. And you had gotten all of the documents on 2 April 15th. Mr. Fugate assisted us in verifying that date. 3 Correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And you get this one done. You have two days to 6 go through everything. You prepare -- 7 A You already -- we had already been -- 8 Q You sit down and -- 9 A We'd already been going over things prior to that. 10 It wasn't just within a two-day period. As I said earlier, 11 this was a process that was going on. And there was some -- 12 Q Well, explain -- 13 A We need to get this filed for some reason, I'm not 14 remembering why. And so there wasn't really time to do a 15 lengthy affidavit, which both Mr. Minton and I wanted to do, 16 which is why there were two. But this needed to be filed. 17 But -- 18 Q But this is a lengthier process. So you had stuff 19 before the 15th to go through. And then this is -- 20 A I told you that. 21 Q -- what you came up with. But this one wasn't 22 good enough for you? 23 A What? 24 Q April 17th, this didn't set the record straight? 25 A No. Because I wanted to actually tell the whole 677 1 story of what had happened. 2 Q Why didn't you do it in this affidavit? 3 A Because I didn't have time. 4 Q Why didn't you have time? 5 A Well, I mean, it took me probably a total of -- I 6 don't know how many days. But, I mean, I worked on this 7 lengthier one for quite some time. 8 Q With Ms. Yingling? 9 A No. 10 Q I think you already testified Ms. Yingling helped 11 you on the second affidavit. 12 A Okay. But I didn't work on it with her for quite 13 some time. I -- I mean, this is very lengthy and it took 14 quite a bit of time. And, you know, it mainly took time to 15 gather my thoughts and put together a correct narrative of 16 the events that happened that I felt were important to tell. 17 Q Isn't it true that the second affidavit was done 18 because they weren't happy with the first one because it 19 wasn't damaging enough to the wrongful death case? 20 A No. There was no input from them at all and no 21 feedback from them on this. 22 Q On the first one? 23 A Right. 24 Q Why do you need -- if you are setting the record 25 straight, why do you need feedback? 678 1 A I don't. I'm just -- 2 Q Okay. 3 A I'm just responding to what you said. You said 4 that -- you said something that was a mischaracterization of 5 what occurred. 6 And I'm just trying to make sure that the record 7 is clear that that was incorrect, what you said. 8 Q Well, you get no feedback on the first one. But 9 the second one you get feedback. Yes? 10 A I asked for it. 11 Q Pardon me? 12 A I asked for it. 13 Q You wanted feedback? 14 A I did. 15 Q Why? 16 A I wanted to make sure that I covered all of the 17 points that we'd discussed. 18 Q Well, let's take a look at the first affidavit, 19 the one you signed on April 17th. 20 A Yeah. And if you see, you know, I put in little 21 details like -- Mmm, you know, one place where I had said in 22 deposition that the LMT never paid Rick Spector. And, in 23 fact, I remembered that we paid him one check which I think 24 was for a videotape of a depo or something like that. And 25 my attorney thought, in an abundance of caution, we should 679 1 be sure to include all these little facts that happened in 2 the deposition themselves. 3 My other affidavit was for another purpose, for 4 me. 5 Q For what purpose? 6 A And my attorney and I discussed it. Mmm, he felt 7 that it was too long, and I was talking too much, basically, 8 which I think the Judge also thinks. 9 But I told him that I really wanted to tell the 10 whole story of what had happened from my perspective, 11 because, you know, this has been -- well, it's just been a 12 very, Mmm, unbelievable experience, not only for me, but 13 also for the courts. And I thought that the courts deserved 14 to hear from me about what had actually happened in an 15 affidavit form. 16 Q Well -- 17 A And -- 18 Q -- the second affidavit wasn't written by you, was 19 it? 20 A It was, too. 21 Q With a lot of help? 22 A No. 23 Q Just a little help? 24 A No. 25 Q Well, how do you explain the difference in the 680 1 language used? 2 A Mmm, well, mainly the difference is that my 3 attorney pretty much wrote the first one. But anybody who 4 is familiar with my writing will recognize my writing. As I 5 said, it goes on and on sometimes. 6 Q Okay. So what you are saying -- 7 A But this one was written by me. This one was 8 pretty much written by Mr. McGowan, as we sat together. 9 Q All right. And your testimony -- 10 A And he -- excuse me -- and he preferred that I let 11 him take the long one and edit it down quite extensively. 12 And I insisted it be in my own words. 13 Q Where was that second affidavit typed? 14 A On Mr. Minton's laptop. 15 Q Okay. And who did you give it to? 16 A Well, then I turned it over to Lara Cartwright at 17 Wally Pope's office so that it could have this correct -- 18 well, not there, but so it could have the correct stuff on 19 the front put in. 20 And then I went over it with Mr. Rinder and 21 Ms. Yingling. And, you know, they both thought it told a 22 good story. They suggested a couple of changes for 23 clarifying. 24 Q Why would they be -- why would they be making any 25 suggestions to an affidavit written by you? 681 1 A Because I -- 2 Q Go ahead and answer that one. 3 A Because I asked them to. 4 Q Why? 5 A Because it was a very, very important document. I 6 felt that -- Mmm, you know, by this time I was feeling quite 7 a lot of remorse about some of the things that I have said 8 in the past about them that I believe were very insulting 9 and -- and deliberately untrue. 10 Also, during the course of -- 11 Q So -- 12 A Let me finish. Also, during the course of our 13 discussions, Mr. Rinder and I -- because Mr. Rinder and I 14 have known each other since 19- -- gosh, 1982, I think, and 15 we've had quite a history together, and -- both when we were 16 in Scientology together and since I have been out. 17 And we had had some talks in which he had filled 18 in some information for me that I had not had before, not 19 about this case or anything, but just about some things that 20 happened between us. 21 And I had come to change my opinion about him and 22 to feel that he was someone that -- that I'd been very 23 unfair to. 24 Q So working with him on this affidavit -- 25 A And -- 682 1 Q -- has given him a chance to be treated more 2 fairly? 3 A No. You know, it's not really a correct 4 characterization to say working with him on the affidavit. 5 But I really did want to make sure that -- 6 Q You wanted to make sure the bill of goods you were 7 asked to sell was up to par, isn't that correct? 8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to the 9 argumentative -- 10 THE COURT: Sustained. 11 A No. That -- 12 THE COURT: You don't have to answer that. The 13 objection was sustained, and that is the end of 14 that. 15 THE WITNESS: Okay. What I was starting to 16 say -- 17 THE COURT: No. There is nothing here, because 18 he asked the question, and there was an objection, 19 it was sustained. 20 So go on to your next question. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Let me go back to Exhibit 73 that I handed up to 23 you, I guess the 1997 letter that Mr. Dandar had sent to 24 you. 25 THE COURT: You know, I know I must have it and 683 1 I'm sure it is up here but somehow I have forgotten 2 it. It has been a long time ago. Could I see it? 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, I gave her the only copy I 4 have. 5 THE COURT: Madam clerk, do you have it? 6 MR. LIROT: I would like to get -- all of the 7 copies I have given her I would like to get back, 8 because a lot of those I need to give to the clerk. 9 THE COURT: I doubt it have it. It is actually 10 Number 73 attached -- 11 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, this one wasn't 12 attached. It was submitted on Day One before you by 13 Mr. Fugate. 14 THE COURT: Is it a letter to Stacy and Vaughn 15 Young re: Lisa McPherson and Scientology? 16 MR. LIROT: That is correct. 17 THE COURT: I have got it now. Go ahead. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q When did counsel for Scientology get that letter? 20 A I believe -- I'm not sure -- but that they may 21 have already had it. I don't recall that I gave it to them, 22 but I don't think I did. 23 Q I guess I'll ask that question. Did they show it 24 to you? 25 A Oh, this was part of -- no. No. No. No. No. I 684 1 was -- when I went up to Atlanta, I brought a copy of this 2 letter, and also a copy of -- Mmm -- 3 THE COURT: What happened in Atlanta? 4 THE WITNESS: Well, I went back to Atlanta for 5 a day to get these documents -- this thing, I think, 6 and also a copy of some checks. 7 THE COURT: Was there a meeting there? This 8 was just a trip you made? 9 THE WITNESS: No. I lived there. 10 THE COURT: Oh, that is right. That was a long 11 time ago. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q When? 14 A Oh, I think I can -- this was probably sometime 15 early on in this process. I don't recall. 16 Q Before -- before March 29? 17 A No. 18 Q Before April 9, the Judge Baird hearing? 19 A No. If it was presented before that, it wasn't my 20 copy that was used. 21 Q You went and retrieved a copy. Right? 22 A Yeah. 23 Q Who asked you to retrieve it? 24 A Mmm, nobody asked me to retrieve it. But I wanted 25 to retrieve any documents that I thought might -- you 685 1 know -- well, any documents that had anything to do with 2 what had happened in the wrongful death case. 3 Q Well, I mean, you were a consultant in that case. 4 Correct? 5 A Right. 6 Q And you signed a confidentiality agreement. 7 Didn't you? 8 A Yeah. This one. 9 Q It didn't matter anymore? 10 A It seemed -- I felt that it would be important to 11 reveal what was in this letter. I thought it filled in an 12 important gap in the story. You know, it was the first 13 thing in writing that I had from Mr. Dandar in which -- in 14 which he talked about Mr. Miscavige, managing agent -- 15 Q He asked about it, correct? I mean, the letter 16 will speak for itself. Wasn't it a big question mark? 17 A Right. But it was that part of it that made it 18 interesting -- that made it of importance, in my mind. 19 And -- and, you know, I was -- I was the one who was the 20 architect of this whole strategy, and it wasn't -- it didn't 21 begin with this case. It began in 1993. 22 And I wanted to -- and I wanted to quote from this 23 letter because it would confirm what I wanted to say, which 24 was that Mr. Dandar had already been familiar with my 25 declarations in earlier cases. 686 1 Q Well, you were already an expert witness in other 2 cases. Right? 3 A Right. 4 Q So -- 5 A Well, it is not that there was anything strange 6 that he would be. It's just that when we -- what I was 7 trying to -- what I was trying to confirm was that it was 8 because of the specific strategy that I had created in the 9 earlier cases that he contacted us. 10 Q There is a big question mark there. Right? 11 A Why? 12 Q I guess the issue here is did Mr. Miscavige have 13 some position of authority that would be relevant to this 14 wrongful death action. Isn't that basically the question? 15 THE COURT: I thought we rehashed that about as 16 much as we could. 17 MR. LIROT: I think we have, Judge. 18 THE COURT: Well, then I suggest we move on to 19 something else. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Well, who did you give these materials to, this 22 letter? 23 A Mmm, perhaps Mr. Rinder. I don't remember. It 24 was a part of materials that were on the table. 25 Q Well, didn't you think that this was work product? 687 1 I mean, you are hired as a consultant. This is a letter 2 between you and the attorney that is hiring you as a 3 consultant. And -- 4 A Well. 5 Q -- you just hand it over to the other side, 6 without any compunction at all? 7 A Well, by this time, I didn't really feel like they 8 were the other side of me. 9 And I also felt that since it was a letter to me, 10 I -- you know, it was my letter. 11 Q Well, you have been in case after case after case 12 as an expert. I mean, clearly you are familiar with the 13 confidentiality between a consultant or an expert witness 14 and the attorney that has hired. Right? 15 A Mmm, again, I felt that, under the circumstances, 16 you know -- 17 THE COURT: Ma'am, you'll have to answer that 18 yes or no before you give us your explanation. 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. What was the question? 20 THE COURT: Read it back. 21 MR. LIROT: You have been -- 22 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Madam Court 23 Reporter, read that question back. 24 THE REPORTER: "Question: Well, you have been 25 in case after case after case as an expert. I mean, 688 1 clearly you are familiar with the confidentiality 2 between a consultant or an expert witness and the 3 attorney that has hired. Right?" 4 A Yes. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Okay. So you are not new to the legal obligations 7 that you have as an expert. Right? 8 A Mmm, in the sense of the confidentiality of the 9 agreement, I'm aware of that. 10 Q And it just didn't matter any more when it came to 11 Mr. Dandar? 12 A Oh, as I said, I felt, under the circumstances, 13 that it would be appropriate to quote from the letter. 14 Q Did you ask Mr. McGowan about that? 15 A Mmm, I showed Mr. McGowan -- 16 Q What other documents -- I'm sorry, finish your 17 answer. 18 A I showed him what I had written. 19 Q I didn't hear you. I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: She said she showed him what she 21 had written. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q You showed him what you had written. That wasn't 24 my question. 25 A Well -- 689 1 Q Did you show him the letter? Did you say, "Hey, 2 I'm going to turn over all this confidential stuff that 3 Mr. Dandar gave me"? 4 A You mean all this being this letter? 5 Q I don't know. What else did you turn over? 6 A Mmm, in the end, nothing else. 7 Q Well, you said something about checks and a whole 8 table full of documents. 9 A But I didn't end up turning them over. 10 THE COURT: Well, did you give them to them so 11 they could look them over and read through them? 12 THE WITNESS: You know, I actually didn't end 13 up, in the end, turning anything else over. 14 THE COURT: But did you let them see it? 15 THE WITNESS: No. It didn't end up being 16 relevant. 17 THE COURT: Well, I don't know who is putting 18 relevant to what. But in addition to this letter, 19 did you show to Mr. Rinder any of the matters given 20 to you by Mr. Dandar? 21 THE WITNESS: Nothing else, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: Nothing? Just this letter? 23 THE WITNESS: Actually, the other things I had 24 weren't from Mr. Dandar. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 690 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q What else was on the table you looked at besides 3 that that wasn't relevant? Well, let me back up a little 4 bit. 5 Somebody asked you for some documents. Is that 6 correct? 7 A No. 8 Q So you, on your own, decided, "In addition to 9 recanting my testimony, I'm going to go through my stuff and 10 I'm going to find all of the documents I think are important 11 and I'm going to voluntarily hand them over to the people 12 that I have been in an adverse position to for years and 13 years and years," is that -- is that your state of mind? 14 THE COURT: Is this a breach of contract case? 15 I mean, if Mr. Dandar thinks he can sue this woman 16 for breach of contract, he needs to do just that. 17 And he may well have a suit. But, I mean, she 18 testified about this. 19 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q I guess I just want to ask. You reviewed these 22 documents in Atlanta sometime after the 9th but sometime 23 before April 15th? 24 A Mmm, I can't really remember when I -- when I went 25 up there. There was just a day when I had a day that I 691 1 could go. 2 Q Well, did you go up there for this specific 3 purpose? 4 A No. No. 5 Q Why did you go? You were already down here, and 6 you went back to Atlanta for a day, and then came back to 7 the Tampa Bay area? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And what was your purpose in going back to 10 Atlanta? 11 A Mmm, well, I had a cat who had been in a kennel 12 for a really long time. And I just wanted to let her out 13 for a day. I know that sounds silly, but that was -- 14 Q No. I think at this point your affection for cats 15 is an issue of judicial notice. 16 A But, you know, I'm trying to remember if this 17 letter was already a part of their records or not. It may 18 have been. I did get a copy of this. 19 THE COURT: Well, gosh, if it hadn't have been, 20 I'm sure you would want to know. You would have 21 said, "How did you get a copy of this letter?" 22 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I mean, I don't really -- 23 I'm just not recalling, you know. But I do think -- 24 I mean, I am thinking that they already had a copy 25 of it. And I'm not sure. 692 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q When would you have seen their copy of this 3 letter? 4 A Well, it would have been sometime during this 5 process, perhaps -- I think it was prior to them seeing my 6 affidavit, though. 7 THE COURT: How would they have gotten it you 8 didn't turn it over? 9 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 10 THE COURT: Ma'am, if you had any meeting with 11 Mr. Rinder and he handed you a copy of this letter, 12 you would have gone, "How in the world did you get 13 that?" I mean, you would remember that, wouldn't 14 you? 15 THE WITNESS: I think so. 16 THE COURT: So you must have turned it over 17 yourself. 18 THE WITNESS: I think so. But my problem -- 19 the reason that I'm having difficulty with this is 20 that I'm not remembering when I went up to Atlanta. 21 THE COURT: Well, regardless of when, I guess 22 the real question is why would you turn this letter 23 over to Mr. Rinder? 24 I mean, what is it here that would have 25 possessed you to go to Atlanta, make a special trip 693 1 to Atlanta to get this, or see your cat and get this 2 letter, and turn it over? Did he ask for it? Did 3 you think it was important he have it? I mean, this 4 is just a letter. 5 THE WITNESS: Well, I thought it was -- I 6 thought it would be of interest to them. I thought 7 it was -- I thought it -- 8 THE COURT: Let me suggest something to you. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 THE COURT: Was there a discussion with Mr. 11 Rinder, or anyone connected with the Church of 12 Scientology, that said, "Anything you have got in 13 your possession that would tend to show anything 14 about David Miscavige would be very important for us 15 to have? Please search your files." 16 THE WITNESS: Well, you know, your Honor, I 17 don't think these words were used, but I certainly 18 had that emotion. I certainly wanted to do that. 19 THE COURT: There was some discussion -- is 20 this fair, some discussion you had during one of 21 these meetings made it apparent to you that if you 22 had something that showed anything regarding how 23 Mr. Miscavige got added as a party, this would be of 24 great importance? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. 694 1 THE COURT: So you went to get this letter to 2 assist because that was what the purpose of this 3 was, coming to a global -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. 5 THE COURT: -- conclusion? They wanted it, you 6 had it, you got it for them? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Who was at the meeting when you turned over that 10 letter? 11 A Mmm, I think Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling. 12 Q Where did this meeting take place? 13 A Well, all of them took place at Wally Pope's. 14 Q Was Wally Pope there? Anybody else? 15 A No. 16 THE COURT: Counsel, Mr. Dandar, I could hear 17 you clear up here. The man has to be able to ask 18 some questions, or you have to take over the 19 questioning yourself. 20 MR. DANDAR: Sorry. 21 THE COURT: I mean, that is disconcerting to 22 me, and to you, I imagine. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: But I'm willing to let her have 25 some discomfort here because, frankly, I'm having a 695 1 lot of discomfort, and some of it is brought on by 2 her. But I'm not willing to have the discomfort. 3 THE WITNESS: But, your Honor, I do think -- 4 THE COURT: And I hope you haven't been too 5 uncomfortable. What I mean, I want him there 6 instead of here because that is aggravating to me. 7 You understand why I say that? 8 THE WITNESS: I do. I do. 9 You know, I'm not trying to be unforthcoming 10 about this letter. But I just -- but I just -- I 11 think they already had this letter. And I don't 12 know how they did. 13 THE COURT: Well, did you accuse them of 14 breaking into your house to get it? 15 THE WITNESS: No. 16 THE COURT: Well, that is the only way I would 17 know they would have it unless you kept it somewhere 18 other than your house, or they broke into 19 Mr. Dandar's office to get a copy of it. 20 Did you say, "Where did you get this, from my 21 house, or Mr. Dandar's office?" 22 Surely, if I went to a meeting and somebody had 23 a copy of a letter that came to me, the first thing 24 I would say is, "How in the hell did you get this?" 25 And I might use stronger words than that. 696 1 THE WITNESS: Well, I'm not remembering whether 2 I first saw this letter and they already had it or 3 not. And I -- and -- and I have to tell you, if 4 they had this letter, I wouldn't be surprised. You 5 know, I'm afraid I wouldn't. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Because they had -- they have an 8 ability to get a hold of things that -- you know, 9 I -- I didn't particularly go through a process of 10 wondering how they got the letter. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: I didn't. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q I think you responded that part of the reason you 15 went back to Atlanta was to take a look at your files to see 16 what you had that might have been related to Mr. Miscavige. 17 And what else did you look for -- 18 A Right. 19 Q -- when you went to Atlanta? 20 A I also looked for copies of checks that I had paid 21 to Mr. Prince. 22 Q Anything else? 23 A Mmm, not anything else, in particular. 24 Q Well, weren't you asked to -- as part of, I guess, 25 setting the record straight, weren't you asked to bring 697 1 forward all of the Lisa McPherson Trust materials that you 2 had been asked to provide earlier? 3 A You mean the hard drives and the videotape and 4 stuff? 5 Q Sure. 6 A But that wasn't at my house. That wasn't at my 7 house. 8 Q Was there ever anything else at your house that 9 was responsive to any of the requests to produce that had 10 been submitted to you -- 11 A No. 12 Q -- on behalf of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 13 A Well, there are other things at my house that are 14 responsive to the latest thing that you gave to me. But -- 15 Q Such as? 16 A -- but I haven't been home since then. 17 THE COURT: Tax returns. 18 MR. LIROT: I know that. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Anything else? 21 A No. 22 Q Well, you testified that you had stuff spread out 23 over your table, and you were looking for stuff, and this 24 letter sort of was part of that material. 25 What else were you -- 698 1 A I believe it was. You know, I'm sorry I'm not 2 remembering exactly. 3 Q Well -- 4 A But I do believe -- I do believe they already had 5 a copy of this. 6 Q I'm very confused. You have to forgive me. 7 Either you found it in your apartment and gave it to them, 8 or at some meeting they gave it to you. And you don't 9 remember which it is? 10 A Well, I think they already had it. 11 Q Had you given it to them before? 12 A No, I hadn't. 13 Q Why are you looking for checks to Jesse Prince? 14 A Because, Mmm, I thought it would be -- I thought 15 it might be of interest to show in case Mr. Prince was going 16 to try to say that I -- Mmm, that he hadn't been paid by us 17 or something like that. Because there was something on the 18 Internet where somebody said poor Jesse has been abandoned 19 by Mr. Minton, you know, and part of the spin that has been 20 going on on the Internet about what is going on here. 21 Q Well -- 22 A And I thought it would be -- might be of interest 23 to see that, you know, I was paying him all of the way up 24 until -- through April 4th. 25 Q So you went up -- 699 1 A That is why. 2 Q You went up to look for things responsive to 3 Scientology's request that you find materials regarding 4 Mr. Miscavige? 5 A You know, I didn't actually go up for that reason. 6 Q Well, you went up for your cat, you already 7 testified -- 8 A Well, not just for that. You know, I haven't been 9 home in quite some time. There has been some work being 10 done on my house. I needed to speak to the contractor about 11 that. You know, there were various -- I had bills up there 12 I needed to go pick up so I could pay them. You know, I 13 don't mean to characterize it that I took a trip 14 specifically to get documents, because I didn't. 15 Q But you took a trip and got documents. Why you 16 did it -- 17 A Well, I took a trip and got this (indicating). 18 Q I didn't ask. My question is if you are going to 19 set the record straight, why are you going to get checks 20 written to Jesse Prince? What does that have to do with 21 anything? 22 A That wasn't part of it. But about -- by this 23 point, Jesse had written -- well, hadn't written this 24 affidavit yet, but he made it clear that, you know, he was 25 turning against us, that he was going to testify against us. 700 1 Q So let me -- 2 A That he had lied to us about some things. And as 3 I said, I saw this thing on the Internet where people -- 4 where somebody was characterizing Jesse as having been 5 abandoned by Mr. Minton, which was so far from the truth 6 that I just wanted to make sure that I could -- that it 7 wouldn't just be my word, you know, and that it would be -- 8 that I would have something to show for it. 9 Q Well, who had challenged you on that? You see a 10 message -- somebody makes an accusation on the Internet, and 11 you immediately go to your records and start digging through 12 checks? 13 A No. But in the situation with Jesse, in specific, 14 you know, it was -- it was very important to me, because of 15 the -- you know, because like I said, Jesse used to be one 16 of my very best friends. And if Jesse was going to come in 17 here -- you know, a lot of the things that are posted on the 18 Internet are -- it's been shown in the past have been coming 19 from Mr. Dandar's team, Patricia Greenway and -- 20 THE COURT: We really don't need to go there. 21 THE WITNESS: I'm just trying to explain, your 22 Honor, it wasn't just out of the blue I thought this 23 would be of relevance. You know, if they were going 24 to start -- 25 THE COURT: Really, the only thing of relevance 701 1 is if you went and got these checks because you were 2 asked to go get them by the Church or by any agent 3 of the Church. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I went and got the checks 5 because I thought they might be -- I thought they 6 might be important. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q What else did you look at and decide this wasn't 9 important? 10 THE COURT: And this was a decision of yours, 11 without any coaching or anything by the Church, any 12 lawyer or any agent of the Church? 13 THE WITNESS: No. 14 THE COURT: This was your decision -- 15 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 16 THE COURT: -- as to the checks of -- to 17 Mr. Prince. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q What else did you look at that you decided you 20 didn't really need to bring back down on the table where you 21 had everything spread out? 22 A I don't know. There was no table at my house. 23 That was the table at Wally Pope's office. 24 Q Okay. So -- 25 A I wasn't able to -- you know, my house is still 702 1 somewhat unpacked. Unpacked. And my files aren't 2 readily -- you know, all my files -- a lot of my files are 3 still in boxes. I didn't have time to go through a lot of 4 things. I happened to have this handy -- not handy. I 5 happened to have it in a file in my drawer. 6 Q The letter that they already had? 7 A Well, I think they already had a copy of it. 8 Q Okay, but it just happened to be handy in your 9 drawer -- 10 THE COURT: Counsel, that is what she said. 11 Move on to something else. 12 MR. LIROT: Yes. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q All right. What about your meetings with Jesse 15 Prince? 16 A Let's -- 17 THE COURT: Well, that is a new topic and a new 18 day. We'll just get to that the next time we meet, 19 because it is five o'clock. 20 MR. LIROT: Very good, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: This would be a good time to stop. 22 I promised somebody -- somebody has to catch a plane 23 at 5:30 in the morning. 24 MR. FUGATE: That is tomorrow, but in the 25 morning. 703 1 MR. WEINBERG: In the morning. 2 THE COURT: Is that you, too, Mr. Dandar? Are 3 you going somewhere? 4 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going anywhere. 5 THE COURT: Well, somebody -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: It's me, Judge. 7 THE COURT: I promised somebody we would stop 8 so they can get home and go to bed so they can catch 9 a very early plane. 10 MR. DANDAR: Judge, my calendar indicates that 11 Dr. Knight, from Scotland, was not scheduled for 12 deposition on Monday. It was Dr. Buchan from Tampa. 13 So that is why we weren't going to come here until 14 ten o'clock on Monday. 15 So somebody needs to tell me what happened to 16 Dr. Buchan or -- 17 MR. FUGATE: What happened to Ms. Buchan is you 18 decided that if we would bring Dr. Knight here from 19 Wales, you would switch her. And we did it. So 20 he's scheduled -- or was scheduled to be here on 21 Monday. But he broke his leg and he can't come. 22 And that is what happened. 23 MR. DANDAR: Is Buchan dropped? Or is that a 24 different date? 25 MR. FUGATE: You moved her. But I don't have 704 1 my calendar where you moved her to. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could, I would like to 4 retrieve the documents from Ms. Brooks I handed her 5 for review. 6 THE COURT: You may. Any that are not hers. 7 Those that are hers she may keep. So -- 8 MR. LIROT: The documents I presented to her, 9 I'm sure she knows which ones are hers, I want to be 10 able to give those to the clerk. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, just this one. 12 THE COURT: And that one is a copy because I 13 just gave the one the clerk had back to her. 14 THE WITNESS: These are mine. 15 MR. LIROT: The Armstrong case and -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. I'm sorry. 17 THE COURT: Whatever you think you gave her, 18 ask her for it and she'll give it back if it's not 19 hers. 20 THE WITNESS: And the declaration? 21 MR. LIROT: Whatever I gave you. I don't know 22 what you have in your packet. 23 THE COURT: Counsel, she probably doesn't 24 remember. Can you all get together and look to see? 25 THE WITNESS: Do you want to come look, 705 1 because -- 2 THE COURT: Mr. Bailiff, I want this courtroom 3 locked tonight. 4 _____________________________________ 5 (WHEREUPON, the following proceedings were put 6 on the record at a bench conference between the 7 Court, Mr. Fugate, Mr. Dandar and Mr. Howie.) 8 THE COURT: Okay, I just want to put on the 9 record that I am going to go have a conversation 10 with Mr. Dandar and Mr. Lirot, and this has been 11 approved by the defendant Church of Scientology, and 12 has been conveyed to me through counsel. 13 Mr. Fugate, you are here to verify that? 14 MR. FUGATE: I do verify that. And we did 15 consent that could go forward. And we do not 16 object. 17 MR. DANDAR: From all of the defendants? 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE COURT: And we had -- last night I had a 20 conversation with a lawyer from both sides, and 21 we're going to continue, and there may even be 22 conversations that I have with the other side, if 23 this is agreeable. But I just wanted to make sure 24 the Court is protected. 25 MR. FUGATE: You said from all defendants. Let 706 1 me tell the Court, so that is not an issue, I have 2 gotten permission from the other defendants to make 3 representations on their behalf, since they are not 4 here, so we are clear on that. 5 THE COURT: Thank you. 6 MR. HOWIE: May I raise one point? 7 It's my understanding the Court wants 8 Mr. Minton here on Monday, the 13th, at ten o'clock. 9 However, I see we are not finished -- 10 THE COURT: That is too early. If he wants to 11 come, I think the idea is he wants to be here. 12 We're off the record now. 13 (WHEREUPON, the proceedings are adjourned at 14 5:10 p.m.) 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 707 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 8th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 708 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 6 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 13, 2002. Morning Session. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25 709 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 21 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton. 23 24 25 710 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 711 1 THE COURT: Good morning. 2 (A discussion was held off the record.) 3 THE COURT: I had the chance to spend some days 4 with this stuff. It is always kind of dangerous 5 when I have a chance to spend days. 6 So I have some things, if I can find them -- 7 first of all, just a matter of what availability. I 8 have got -- I have got this week and next are my 9 trial weeks. 10 Next Monday, I have been summoned -- unless I 11 can get out of it, to -- the Chief Justice Elect 12 appointed me to something, and I'm going to try to 13 get out of it. But if I cannot, that will be an 14 all-day fly to Tallahassee, meet, fly back. So I'll 15 let you know. As I said, we try to touch base with 16 each other, and either he or I are in meetings or 17 hearings. 18 So, other than that, I'm going to assume that I 19 have this week and at least those four days of next. 20 I'm hopeful we can roll along a little faster, 21 although we seem to be going at a slow pace. 22 Obviously, this is important and I'm trying to let 23 everybody have a full opportunity, so I'm not 24 rushing everybody. But if we don't finish, then I 25 would assume the next time that -- obviously, you 712 1 guys have set aside, starting the second week of 2 June, for this trial. We have already set June sort 3 of available. 4 So what I can do, I suppose, is see if I can 5 get Judge Beach in early. I guess you-all will be 6 preparing for trial, though. It doesn't appear like 7 we'll start the trial any time in June, so let's see 8 where we are at the end of these two weeks. It 9 would be nice if we were done. But if we're not, I 10 want -- I have got to finish this. So we'll have to 11 look to the June time frame to see if we can finish 12 it up. 13 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, one thing that 14 might -- you know, I guess it's going to be day by 15 day. But I think if we go this week and next week, 16 if my -- I don't have my calendar in front of me, 17 but our case management conference, I think, is 18 Tuesday after the holiday, after the Memorial Day 19 holiday. So we would have that day, because we 20 could always set the case management for a June date 21 if we are still going on this. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, in other words, at 23 some point in time I'm hoping if we can get time in 24 here, we can get this done. But if we don't, as I 25 said, I remember telling you-all about June, that in 713 1 the event I didn't dismiss these charges, it would 2 look like we would have a trial of some sort, we 3 would take those June dates. And, remember, I had 4 some I had to be in Tallahassee, and different 5 sundry things. 6 But what I guess I'm saying to you-all is 7 obviously this must be completed before we can talk 8 about any trial, if there should be a trial. 9 MR. FUGATE: Right. 10 THE COURT: So don't start booking up stuff for 11 other cases that -- just assuming, oh, well, this 12 won't go to trial in June so I'm going to go set up 13 a trial in some other court. We're going to use 14 that June time to finish this. Until we're done is 15 what I'm telling you. 16 MR. FUGATE: Very good. 17 THE COURT: All right? 18 MR. LIROT: Very good. 19 THE COURT: Okay. You think I'm kidding? I 20 have four pages here of just things to discuss with 21 you-all. Some of them are "to dos" for me. 22 At some point in time this week, when I'm 23 ready, I'm going to give you-all some orders on the 24 matters that I think I have under advisement. I'm 25 not prepared to do that today. 714 1 One of the things I do not have, Mr. Dandar, if 2 you could make a note, that your response to the -- 3 I have, and I have found, your -- sort of your 4 closing argument in the motion to exclude vitreous. 5 The Church's motion to exclude. 6 I found your initial closing argument, and I 7 found their response. I'm not saying you didn't 8 give it to me because you did. But I don't know 9 where it is. I need another copy of it, your 10 rebuttal response. 11 MR. LIROT: Right. 12 THE COURT: I need that. 13 One thing I'm going to ask both sides to do for 14 me is to think about something that I -- I, having 15 read through this book and response and all this 16 stuff for the second time, after I do a little bit 17 more -- have a little better understanding about it, 18 one of the things that came to me to perhaps be a 19 thought would be if -- remember, I have to kind of 20 think if this, then that. So I'm not trying to tell 21 you-all I'm making rulings in advance, because I'm 22 not. As I told you all, I'm taking this very 23 seriously. These are serious allegations. 24 There may be an advantage to not severing the 25 counterclaim. There are certainly disadvantages. 715 1 There would certainly be a huge disadvantage to 2 Mr. Dandar if I should suggest that he would be 3 permitted to stay on as counsel in the wrongful 4 death. And if I combined them together, I would 5 assume he would become a material witness in that 6 case. Therefore -- I mean, he would be eliminated 7 as a lawyer. 8 However, to my way of thinking, and as I was 9 going through this, I was trying to figure out how a 10 jury -- and I may have motions for summary judgment 11 and all that. But I'm thinking long-term here. 12 There may be advantages to a jury hearing -- the 13 jury in that case would have to hear enough about 14 the wrongful death, the legitimacies of the wrongful 15 death, to determine the improprieties as being 16 alleged by the Church. 17 In other words, it seems like originally I 18 thought the wrongful death just needed to stand 19 alone. There may be an advantage to not doing that. 20 There may be, obviously, disadvantages. 21 I would like to hear from both sides regarding 22 that, that would be, to let this trial go to a jury 23 as a -- as a claim and counterclaim. 24 Some of the things that, obviously, I would 25 want to know is if, in light of these revelations, 716 1 who would the Church seek to add as a party. Who 2 would the estate seek to add as a party. Always 3 keeping in mind that the Court, as I recall, has the 4 ability to add parties if the Court feels they're 5 necessary. 6 Mr. Minton has been added as a party. I would 7 assume, in light of the -- I'm just talking now -- 8 it would seem to me Ms. Brooks is going to end up 9 being a party. 10 Mr. Dandar may, in fact, end up being a party. 11 He would certainly be a witness. He would have to 12 be a witness because -- he would be a major witness, 13 I would assume, for the estate, in light of the 14 allegations. 15 Mr. Prince may or may not be a party. 16 These are thoughts that I have had on that. In 17 other words, for me to know whether or not that is a 18 good idea or not a good idea, I need to know who 19 you-all would believe would be parties or you would 20 move to add as parties as this thing has progressed 21 to the point that it progressed. Okay? 22 So I don't need briefs on this or anything 23 major. I just need, you know, we would favor this, 24 we would not favor this, here is why, and if this 25 were done, here is who we would ask to add as 717 1 parties. 2 Naturally, there may be motions on that, that 3 we'll have to hear. But just so I can kind of get 4 in my mind that thought from both sides. 5 This was a note to me. And I have looked -- my 6 office, as you-all might imagine, since I keep most 7 of this in my private office, is just full of this 8 case. And I have trouble finding things. I can't 9 seem to put it in any kind of order anywhere. 10 Don't I have Mr. Kartuzinski's deposition? 11 MR. LIROT: Yes. 12 MR. FUGATE: I will check, but I believe you 13 have Johnson, Kartuzinski and David Houghton. 14 THE COURT: Okay. I want to read his 15 deposition for things I want to read it for, maybe 16 not even pertaining to this. But this was a note I 17 made to myself. I can't seem to find it. I'm sure 18 it's in there. If not, I'll ask for another copy. 19 MR. FUGATE: We'll bring another copy tomorrow, 20 Judge. 21 THE COURT: I want to know, Number 1, whether 22 the LMT tax return for 2000 is here. It wasn't here 23 the last time because you-all weren't able to get 24 it. I know there was an objection to be raised to 25 it. Where is it? 718 1 MR. McGOWAN: The LMT tax return is not here, 2 the 2000. 2001, there is no tax return. It is 3 being prepared now. 4 THE COURT: But the 2000 -- 5 MR. McGOWAN: Is not here. 6 THE COURT: Why? 7 MR. McGOWAN: I don't know. It has not -- I 8 didn't know it was going to come up this morning, 9 and it's -- 10 THE COURT: Well, then, let's put it this way. 11 I want to hear your objection to it this afternoon, 12 to give you time to prepare for that. And if I rule 13 that it should be produced, then I'm going to want 14 it. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Very well. 16 THE COURT: Frankly, you should have it here. 17 Then if I sustained your objection, you wouldn't 18 have to turn it over. 19 So the idea is the request has been made for 20 the LMT partnership and the income tax returns of 21 Ms. Brooks. And I don't know, Mr. Minton hasn't 22 testified yet. I saw a request to produce filed in 23 the other case. And then I saw Ms. Brooks' response 24 to request to produce that I have not seen. 25 So I don't know if you filed a request to 719 1 produce -- and I'm now speaking of plaintiff -- in 2 this case, separate, one to Ms. Brooks and one to 3 Mr. Minton, or what. 4 MR. DANDAR: We did. 5 THE COURT: Okay. Well, see, I don't have them 6 so I don't know exactly what the requests to produce 7 were. But I want to hear an argument on the LMT 8 return and on her tax returns, because you objected 9 to those, as well. 10 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, ma'am. To hers 11 specifically. 12 THE COURT: Right. So we'll hear argument on 13 that. And if I overrule your objections, you should 14 be able to hand them up. So if you don't have them, 15 get them. 16 Where is Mr. Minton's lawyer? Is he here? 17 MR. McGOWAN: No. 18 THE COURT: Is Mr. Minton here? 19 MR. McGOWAN: He's in town but not here. 20 THE COURT: Would you pass that on to him, the 21 requests to produce, I assume at the time of his 22 testimony? 23 MR. DANDAR: At the hearing before his 24 testimony. 25 THE COURT: Whatever it is they want to object 720 1 to, I want to hear it, and they ought to have them 2 here. The production ought to be there. Then if 3 the Judge sustains the objection, put it in your 4 briefcase. If the Judge doesn't sustain the 5 objection, you hand it over. 6 So I don't know who is talking to Mr. Minton's 7 counsel, but if I forget, would you please tell 8 Mr. Howie to attempt to have those so that perhaps 9 at some point in time, maybe the same time you hear 10 Ms. Brooks' objection, we can hear Mr. Minton's 11 objections, if there are any, and I can rule on 12 that, and then have these things produced or not. 13 You want to do it tomorrow? I'm not trying to 14 rush you on this, but obviously she's testifying. 15 There has been a request to produce. For all I 16 know, they'll start asking questions and we won't 17 have it. 18 MR. McGOWAN: We can do it this afternoon and 19 I'll get with Mr. Howie during the break. 20 THE COURT: Very well. 21 MR. FUGATE: Judge, on the request to produce 22 front, we complied with the request to produce and 23 provided copies of all of the documents that had 24 been provided by the Church to Ms. Brooks and had 25 been provided by the Church to Mr. Minton that was 721 1 requested that you have heard testimony about. Once 2 you get the transcripts and pleadings -- all that 3 was delivered this morning. And so that has been 4 complied with. 5 THE COURT: And I guess that is where they go. 6 I guess they don't go to me. But I don't want to 7 get in a situation where, you know, I keep reading 8 depositions where, well, I'll take another 9 deposition, somebody produces records. And I want 10 this hearing to be done and we're done. So -- so if 11 there has been request to produce to whomever it is 12 to be produced to, I want to hear argument on that, 13 then I want them turned over if I deny the 14 objections. And if I grant them, it simply goes in 15 the briefcase and goes away. 16 I -- as I was going through this big book here 17 and looking at some of the discovery motions and the 18 continual objections to LMT's records, I couldn't 19 tell. Have they ever been produced? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, your Honor. They were at 21 Mike Keane's office. I had the opportunity to go 22 through them all. And we produced the lion's share 23 of them. And there were a couple attorney-client 24 privileged -- 25 THE COURT: A privilege log? 722 1 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, a privilege log we provided 2 to Mr. Moxon and Mr. Keane. There was some 3 telephone records, as well, that I have gone over 4 and we have turned over to Mr. Moxon. So -- 5 THE COURT: Copies to the other side? 6 MR. McGOWAN: We have simply -- no. We have 7 simply told Mr. Keane what he can give over. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. McGOWAN: I assume he'll give copies to the 10 appropriate people. 11 THE COURT: So, I mean, that was somewhat 12 disconcerting to me, to have to read motion after 13 motion after motion, to have the Court ordering 14 something time after time after time. The best of 15 my knowledge, I couldn't tell if it was ever done. 16 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I disagree with 17 Mr. McGowan this material has been produced. 18 As indicated in some of what we filed with you, 19 a lot of the computer records were destroyed or 20 deleted the day before the computer expert came, and 21 there was a program run to scramble the disks. 22 THE COURT: Well, if it can't be produced, I 23 would suggest there be something that says they 24 can't be produced. 25 MR. MOXON: A lot of disks were missing. And a 723 1 lot of videos that have never been produced, 2 hundreds of videos, we have not seen them. Several 3 hundred CDs of computerized information taken off 4 the computers that were there when the master first 5 went over, then they disappeared, we have not seen 6 them. 7 We are going to produce evidence, at the end of 8 the witnesses here, indicating that a number of 9 boxes of material were also taken out during the 10 litigation. And after Judge Beach had ordered them 11 not to take anything out, a number of boxes were 12 gone, were shipped away. 13 So I -- I completely disagree with 14 Mr. McGowan's representation it has all been 15 produced. 16 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court, I learned 17 that there were eight hard drives that were taken 18 out of computers and -- removed from computers, 19 prior to a court order, like within an hour or so of 20 doing that. 21 Upon learning that, I was able to find out what 22 happened to them. They were sent to my office, and 23 they have been turned over to Mr. Keane, those hard 24 drives. I don't know what is on them, but I got 25 them and I turned them over to Mr. Keane. 724 1 THE COURT: Well, I want to be real careful on 2 what is produced here, because as I was noticing, 3 through the different orders, there seemed to be 4 some changes on witnesses, and then witnesses today, 5 as opposed to all witnesses that had ever been 6 listed. 7 So I suppose there is certainly a disagreement 8 right now, I can hear, between you and -- and Mr. 9 Moxon as to whether they have been produced, or they 10 haven't. 11 We'll get this issue resolved as to just 12 exactly what they get, and whether it exists or not. 13 And if it doesn't exist, how it has been destroyed 14 or what happened to it, or it's unavailable because. 15 I mean, I can remember Mr. Minton, for example, 16 which I found, as I tried to express to him fairly 17 innoxious, when he would testify, "Well, it is gone, 18 shredded, destroyed, thrown out." All of that. 19 This just can't happen. 20 So we're going to have to deal with some of 21 these things that have been compelled. So I don't 22 know whether we'll have to just haul all of the 23 records in and I'll have to go through them one at a 24 time. 25 On the other hand, I don't think the Church is 725 1 just entitled to go through a corporation for profit 2 -- every bloody record they have just because they 3 want them. That is not going to happen, either, so 4 we'll have to have something. 5 And the people who have been witnesses that 6 aren't witnesses, never are going to be witnesses, 7 they just don't get that. So I don't want Mr. Keane 8 wholesale giving over everything just because it is 9 too much trouble to go through. We're going to get 10 them what they are entitled to, what the courts have 11 ordered. 12 And, on the other hand, I did see where some 13 Court ordered Mr. Dandar's bank accounts to be 14 turned over. That is not going to happen, if that 15 has been requested, because I have two orders from 16 the Second District Court of Appeal that, in 17 essence, protect, at the very least, the Church's 18 knowledge as to any expenditure -- or any thought of 19 how much money is left for him to use in this case. 20 Therefore, we're going to have to have some -- 21 whatever has been ordered in the past and has been 22 quashed, we'll have to make that consistent with 23 this ruling. 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, the tally has now risen to 25 three orders of that nature from the Second District 726 1 Court. 2 If I may approach, I'll give you the one I 3 believe issued on Friday. 4 THE COURT: All right. Well, all I have are 5 these two. But I was going to say, if there are 6 more things filed -- 7 MR. LIROT: Here you go, Judge. 8 MR. MOXON: Do you have a copy of this, 9 Mr. Lirot? 10 MR. LIROT: I think I have one. 11 THE COURT: I think the only way -- you may sit 12 down, counselor. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: The only way I can fix it, 15 Mr. Dandar, if you'll produce an order for me to 16 sign ordering you not to reveal the things that are 17 protected in these orders, then I will do that. And 18 if another judge compels it, you can produce my 19 order. And, frankly, that should absolve you from a 20 contempt proceeding because you would be obeying a 21 Court's order. I'm not going to have another 22 proceeding undermining what I see in these records. 23 Now, by records, I don't mean records -- what I 24 see the Second District saying in its opinions, and 25 that is the Church is not to know what amounts of 727 1 money Mr. Dandar has received for his litigation in 2 this case, that that would be an advantage to the 3 Church that they are not entitled to have. 4 I understand the Church is going to file 5 something at the Second District level. Fine. They 6 write another opinion, we'll deal with it. But I 7 have got these opinions. 8 And as I read through a case in another circuit 9 court here in my own circuit, and they are saying, 10 "Well, that is in that case and not this case." We 11 can't have that because, I mean, the Second District 12 has made it clear. 13 So I will provide you an order, I will provide 14 your client an order, whatever is required, so that 15 in the event -- and I will now instruct the Church, 16 who is a party in other litigation, until such time 17 as these orders are overturned by the Second 18 District, I would consider sanctions if, in fact, 19 some other way is attempted to be used to find out 20 the information that the Second District clearly 21 says you can't have. 22 Now, I understand what you-all have told me 23 before, which is you now plan to file different 24 things in the Second District saying maybe what you 25 had wasn't accurate, maybe -- whatever it is you 728 1 want to file, they may reverse themselves and say, 2 well, we've got to have a full hearing, and then 3 instruct me to have a hearing. They may reverse 4 their orders or their rulings. 5 But until that happens, I can't have 6 somebody -- a court, requiring counsel to answer 7 what the Second District has clearly told him he 8 does not have to answer. 9 So you provide the order, I'll sign it, you can 10 carry it with you, then you can provide it to a 11 court, or provide it to Judge Beach as the trial 12 resolution judge, or provide it to a master or 13 another judge. 14 The only thing I can suggest to you is in the 15 event a court should order you to answer, and I have 16 ordered you not to, I would assume that that would 17 absolve you from a criminal contempt and you can 18 take your chances. I don't know the answer to that. 19 But, generally speaking, relying on an order of the 20 Court will do it. 21 MR. DANDAR: That new decision we just gave 22 you -- I'm sure you recognize it -- it concerns 23 Judge Baird's discovery order, which was now 24 quashed. 25 THE COURT: I haven't read it. So let me read 729 1 it. 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: Okay? Let me take just a moment. 4 Okay. I'm noticing that Judge Parker 5 apparently is the author of these opinions. But I'm 6 also noticing that the one opinion is Judge Whatley 7 and Casanueva. And that is on both of the earlier 8 opinions. And now I notice that Judge Parker is 9 joined by Judge Salcines and Judge Springer. That 10 is five judges at the 2d DCA level. I don't know 11 how many they have who have said the Church is not 12 entitled to this information. 13 As I read these depositions, and as I read, 14 well, this is waived, and that is waived, I can see 15 the dilemma that counsel, Mr. Dandar, is in. 16 And I -- I think I see the Church trying to get 17 this information any way it can. And I'm telling 18 you to stop. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge -- 20 THE COURT: Go get a different order, go get a 21 different ruling. But I can't have -- I can't read 22 these opinions and not think that these are clear 23 and -- and, you know, another judge doesn't even 24 have them, and they're being asked questions, 25 they're saying, "Oh, well, that is another case," on 730 1 and on. 2 So get me an order. I will sign it. I will 3 give you-all a copy of it. And, as I said, as far 4 as I'm concerned, that is the end of that. 5 MR. FUGATE: Judge, we're going to abide by 6 your order. And I think that what you noted is what 7 we will -- we will be developing during this 8 hearing, in the event that -- that there are facts 9 that change that position. But we will abide by the 10 order. 11 THE COURT: But even in this hearing, in other 12 words -- 13 MR. FUGATE: I appreciate that. 14 THE COURT: -- in light of -- I can't ignore an 15 order from a superior court as to what I think their 16 intent is. And you are right, they may change their 17 mind, you know. We're having a full hearing here. 18 That may go to them and they may take a look and 19 say, well, now -- but I have to assume, and this I 20 don't know, and I think maybe somewhere in here I 21 asked for your submission to them, because I noticed 22 in two of the cases they said they read your rather 23 lengthy submission. 24 And I'm sure, if Judge Parker said he read it, 25 I know Judge Parker, I'm sure he read it. I don't 731 1 know if it dealt with the wrongful death or the 2 whole case, including the counterclaim. But I 3 assume, knowing the thoroughness with which the 4 Church prepares its materials to me, I can only 5 assume they prepared similar materials for the 6 District Court, because I noticed they mentioned in 7 there the thoroughness -- 8 MR. FUGATE: I think it is in the -- 9 THE COURT: The first one? 10 MR. FUGATE: The second opinion, I think. But 11 I could be wrong. 12 THE COURT: Yes, it says: "We have thoroughly 13 reviewed the Church's lengthy response and 14 attachments and conclude that the information sought 15 is not reasonably calculated to lead to the 16 discovery of admissible evidence in the trial of the 17 wrongful death action." 18 As I said, I guess the concern I had is whether 19 they were aware of the counterclaim. But knowing 20 you-all, I'm assuming they knew it, because I know 21 you-all and how you present your materials to me. I 22 assume you would be even more thorough with a 23 superior court. So I assume they knew that. I have 24 to assume they knew that. 25 MR. FUGATE: The difficulty -- Judge, I think 732 1 what happened in the testimony that just recently 2 occurred, the 2d DCA, if I read those opinions 3 correctly -- and I just glanced at the third one, I 4 haven't read it -- but the allegation to the 2d DCA 5 is that the moneys have been paid -- that have come 6 in have been paid to the estate to offset costs and 7 expenses, which is different now than what 8 Mr. Dandar has testified to in front of Judge Baird, 9 which is the money came to him personally and he 10 could do with it what he wanted. 11 Where that leaves us, I don't know. 12 THE COURT: I think the Second District would 13 rule exactly the same. That is what they said, you 14 are not entitled to know how much money he has to 15 fund this litigation. I assume they mean that. And 16 until such time they tell me differently, I'm going 17 to abide by their order. 18 MR. FUGATE: We're going to abide by your order 19 when you sign it, Judge. 20 MR. LIROT: And if I may, Judge, you are 21 absolutely correct. After the first two orders came 22 out of the Second District Court, the Church filed a 23 motion for rehearing. Mr. Fugate apparently signed 24 it. And they brought up all this so-called new 25 evidence. 733 1 And the Second District Court, they just denied 2 the motion for rehearing. 3 I would like to give you that, this -- 4 THE COURT: And, you know, as I read this -- 5 this is another problem I have. You know, I read 6 the transcript. And you know how much time I had 7 with it, I read it, but I read it as fast as my eyes 8 would allow me to, and I read through it as quickly 9 as I could. 10 But as I read through it more carefully 11 Thursday night, all day Friday, all day Saturday and 12 all day Sunday, I realized there is stuff in there I 13 can't let into evidence. 14 For example, this Mr. Rosen, is he a licensed 15 lawyer in Florida? 16 MR. DANDAR: No. 17 THE COURT: Then he doesn't know how we do 18 business here. But you can't introduce into a 19 hearing, for heaven's sakes, like that, deposition 20 testimony. Just because you impeach someone from a 21 deposition, it doesn't become substantive evidence. 22 I mean, we have agreed a lot of times that we 23 have taken things, because the deposition testimony 24 and -- it would be helpful and this and that and the 25 other thing. But I saw Mr. Lirot objecting to a 734 1 deposition, for heaven's sakes, part of a 2 deposition, being introduced of a witness who wasn't 3 even there. 4 That ain't going to happen. So I don't know 5 what happened. I may have to just reverse myself on 6 that, because I can't consider evidence that clearly 7 is inappropriately in a hearing. 8 So that stuff -- but, I mean, Mr. Fugate, you 9 know you can't impeach somebody and then somehow put 10 that into a hearing like this -- it is different 11 from a Frye hearing, this is a due process type 12 hearing we're having -- and pretend like somehow 13 that becomes substantive evidence. It doesn't, it 14 isn't, and it needs to be out, out of that hearing, 15 as well. 16 But that is not my hearing, that is Judge 17 Baird's hearing. 18 MR. FUGATE: I can assure you I'm going to 19 follow your Honor's rulings and we are going to do 20 it the way you want to do it. 21 THE COURT: Good. What we need to do is make 22 sure I make myself clear. Some of these things 23 Mr. Rosen -- well, as I said, I was flabbergasted. 24 I don't know how I missed it the first time. He's 25 showing a witness and having him read silently. It 735 1 is not even in the record. I don't even know what 2 it is. Somebody reads silently something and then 3 he introduces that as substantive evidence from some 4 sister or -- I don't know what that is. But it 5 isn't coming into my court that way. 6 So no impeachment evidence gets in as 7 substantive evidence. So I may have to adjust what 8 my ruling was and say some of those exhibits, while 9 they are in, gosh, I have seen everything, I have 10 seen everything so many times, you know, how a jury, 11 a court, is able to keep stuff straight. 12 But I don't want you to think, for example, 13 when -- if you present argument, that you can -- 14 that you could look to some document that has been 15 introduced as some witness, whatever that was, and 16 start reciting it, because I'm going to either have 17 to say, "Don't do that," or else I'll have to tell 18 you what I will accept as evidence and what I won't 19 accept as evidence. 20 MR. FUGATE: I think, as you have seen as we 21 have progressed, we have taken pains, because there 22 are deposition exhibits that have different numbers 23 on it that changed, but I think we have done the 24 best to get those things identified for the record. 25 THE COURT: I understand. But you understand 736 1 what I'm saying. Mr. Rosen isn't here, or Mr. Rosen 2 does things, like -- for example, I noticed on one 3 thing he introduced at a deposition, you know, one 4 thing that he impeached from, I mean, everything has 5 its own little number, you have one deposition, you 6 have all these different numbers on it -- 7 apparently, Mr. Rosen does. Then, the very next 8 page on it might say something different, or might 9 say, wait a minute, I don't think that is right. So 10 we can't have that. 11 And so if you are going to impeach somebody 12 from a deposition, number one, you'll give them the 13 deposition, if you have to. You don't even have to, 14 you don't have to give somebody a deposition, you 15 can stand there and ask them, "Did you say this?" 16 If they say no, that is the end of the inquiry. You 17 get a court reporter in. If they say yes, they have 18 been impeached. It doesn't get introduced. It is 19 impeachment. That is all it is. 20 I don't even know how you get to ask somebody 21 about what somebody else has said. That is totally 22 improper questions. 23 So we're going to have to adjust the evidence 24 in this hearing at some point in time. Okay? 25 MR. FUGATE: I understand. 737 1 THE COURT: As I said, Mr. Rosen isn't here. 2 You-all are. I know you-all. And I know you-all 3 know how to practice under the rules of Florida. 4 And that is what we're going to deal with here, that 5 certainly is not -- well, Mr. Rosen, that is neither 6 here nor there. He's not here. 7 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Let's see. What have I got next? 9 Next thing I have here is the discussion about 10 something with Mr. Minton. So since neither he nor 11 his lawyer are here, I'll save it. 12 I think I have done this, tell attorneys I will 13 continue to take testimony throughout the days I set 14 aside, and if we're not done, we'll go into June. 15 And Judge Beach, I explained that to you, we 16 have to resolve this thing. It has been very slow. 17 I don't know if it will speed up or go slower, but 18 we have to get it done. 19 I don't understand the reason for the sealed 20 depositions in this case. What is this confidential 21 deposition? I never heard of such -- 22 MR. FUGATE: They were sealed really, Judge, 23 because of the criminal case. And there was -- 24 there was a cross-over with the time the criminal 25 case was going forward. And after it ended -- and I 738 1 could be wrong but I think that order was dissolved 2 except for private things that people were asked 3 about. 4 There was a lot of questions that normally I 5 guess would not have been asked that were asked. 6 And the Judge said if there is something a person 7 designates -- Judge Moody said if there is something 8 a person designates as private, you know, I will 9 hear whether or not to disclose that portion of the 10 deposition. 11 Because the objections, as I recall -- at that 12 time, there would be a question about a person's 13 religious beliefs asked of a witness. And in some 14 instances they would say, "I don't object to that 15 being public." In some cases they would say they 16 did, as I remember it. 17 THE COURT: I don't know of anybody that allows 18 somebody to object to it and say -- if it is filed, 19 we can't seal stuff. The press has a right to look 20 at everything. There may be one exception to this, 21 and what we'll have to do -- I'm going to unseal 22 everything, with the possible exception of -- of the 23 Lisa McPherson -- I'm not sure what you call them, 24 files. 25 MR. MOXON: Photographs. 739 1 MR. FUGATE: PC folder. 2 THE COURT: PC folder. If I understand this 3 correctly, those are in the nature -- at least, it's 4 alleged those are in the nature of priest penitent 5 documents. 6 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 7 THE COURT: That being the case, then there 8 should be some limited exposure of those and to what 9 is really necessary and what have you. 10 I don't know what happens if that becomes an 11 issue in the trial. I suspect it becomes public. 12 But at least at this point in time I will hear -- I 13 will keep those sealed until I hear something or 14 otherwise order it. 15 But please understand, I cannot seal anything 16 in a court file unless I give -- I have to give 17 notice to the media. I can't seal something just 18 because you all agreed. I get stuff all of the time 19 from lawyers that ask me to sign off on some sort of 20 confidentiality. And I don't sign it. Sue has a 21 stamp that says "Return to Sender Unsigned." 22 I tell them, "You have to be kidding me. I 23 have to notify the media. I can't do it. So 24 you-all can agree whatever you want. If you get 25 ready to file it in the court file, you file it." 740 1 Or if you don't want me to seal it, then we 2 have to have a hearing and I have to give the press 3 notice in advance. So anything that is filed in 4 this court file is open except if I order it sealed. 5 If there is any depositions that need to be 6 sealed, somebody will have to come tell me about it, 7 we'll have to have a hearing. I may have -- I mean, 8 there is stuff filed all over the place. If 9 somebody said it needs to be sealed, I betcha I 10 didn't see it. 11 You know what I'm saying? 12 MR. FUGATE: I can assure the Court we followed 13 exactly that procedure, both sides did, whenever 14 there were requests made of Judge Moody, and he did 15 have the hearings. 16 The only thing I would request of your Honor, 17 because I just can't remember the people that are 18 involved and the attorneys that were involved, that 19 we -- we, at least, will go through that when we 20 have a moment and notify everybody that that is the 21 Court's -- 22 THE COURT: If it is filed. Some of these 23 things -- I mean, thus far I think the type of 24 depositions filed have been cockroaches and 25 vitreous. And those folks don't care if that stuff 741 1 was -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Right. 3 THE COURT: So that has been made part of the 4 record. And that is fine. 5 MR. MOXON: There are two other categories, 6 your Honor, that might be slightly problematic. 7 The reason this was put in -- I'll refresh 8 Mr. Fugate's recollection of it -- there were 9 depositions with personal information, and then 10 there were statements made to the media on the 11 plaintiff's side. 12 We came in, originally filed a motion to seal 13 the transcripts of private information of church -- 14 of church parishioners who were required -- 15 subpoenaed to give depositions. So that -- 16 THE COURT: Private what? What private? 17 MR. MOXON: Private religious beliefs and 18 activities. 19 THE COURT: Never heard of such. You will 20 probably ask a jury about that. I'm not going to 21 exclude the press from that. We can't have it. 22 There is no such thing. 23 MR. MOXON: But the other category is there 24 were some affidavits -- 25 THE COURT: Sit down, Mr. Dandar. 742 1 MR. MOXON: There were several affidavits by 2 plaintiff's witnesses, Hannah Whitfield and Jesse 3 Prince who looked through PC folders, and they gave 4 their affidavit concerning their interpretation. So 5 all of the PC folders are excluded from your order? 6 THE COURT: Well, I tell you what. It will be 7 gone into in this hearing and it will not be sealed. 8 MR. MOXON: At the moment, it is sealed. Can 9 we go in that? 10 THE COURT: Sure. But I'm not going to 11 exclude -- in the first place, I have to round up 12 the media. 13 MR. MOXON: They already had notice back then. 14 THE COURT: This will come out in this hearing. 15 He has already given notice as to Jesse Prince is a 16 witness. 17 MR. MOXON: But I'm talking about Lisa 18 McPherson's PC folders. 19 THE COURT: I understand. Jesse Prince will be 20 testifying, I presume at some point in time, as 21 to -- as to -- maybe not -- maybe not in this 22 hearing, but at some point in time either Jesse 23 Prince or somebody will testify, if Mr. Dandar 24 persists with his claim, about something that 25 suggests something from the PC folders. 743 1 At that point in time, I'm not going to exclude 2 the media. 3 MR. MOXON: I guess we'll not get to that now. 4 But thank you for your thoughts on that. We'll 5 address that then later. 6 THE COURT: I can't do that unless -- 7 understand what prior restraint is. It doesn't 8 matter what the Church thinks. And it doesn't 9 matter what Ms. Liebreich thinks. A hearing is open 10 to the public. And everything introduced in court 11 is open to the public. If anything is to be sealed 12 in any court file -- it cannot be sealed. The Times 13 could absolutely this moment come in and have the 14 Second District unseal anything that is sealed in 15 the court file unless there has been a judge that 16 has had a hearing, with the press notified, in 17 advance, to present argument as to why something 18 shouldn't be sealed. That is the only way it could 19 be sealed. 20 So unless you have that sort of thing, there 21 should be nothing in this court file that is sealed. 22 MR. MOXON: Understood. That did happen. 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, frankly, Judge, I'll stand 24 corrected, but I think everything that is in the 25 court file is in an unsealed capacity. 744 1 THE COURT: That is what I assume. 2 MR. FUGATE: I think that the issue was in some 3 cases where there was a deposition that had the 4 personal information, the ground rules at that time 5 was that before you file it -- in other words, you 6 just can't file it to make it public. So that at 7 that time we alleged they were using them for story 8 purposes. Forget that. 9 If it is going to be filed, what the order of 10 Judge Moody said, as I recall it, and I don't have 11 it in front of me, if there is anything in there 12 that for some reason the person objects to, their 13 lawyer can come in and argue that to the Court. 14 But everything that is in the court file 15 is public. PC folders are not. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar? 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it was always plaintiff's 18 position, from day one, everything that was filed 19 with the Court be made public. 20 The PC folders we agreed to keep private. But 21 under the statute, the personal representative is 22 the only one that can waive that privilege, and she 23 did. However, we maintain that privilege. 24 There are the Hannah Whitfield affidavit and 25 Jesse Prince affidavits filed with this Court that 745 1 contain information from the PC folders. They 2 should all have been made public, those affidavits 3 and the information contained therein. We don't -- 4 THE COURT: They are in the court file, as far 5 as I'm concerned, they are public. There should be 6 nothing -- 7 MR. DANDAR: There are three -- one from Ben 8 Shaw -- on the PC folders. It should all be public. 9 THE COURT: They are public. I held no 10 hearing. And unless Judge Moody had a hearing where 11 the press received notice in advance, there is 12 nothing in this court file that should be sealed. 13 If it has been done, it has been done. If it 14 hasn't, it hasn't. So, you know -- 15 MR. FUGATE: It's my recollection it was done. 16 And I'll go look for that and give the Court a 17 report. 18 THE COURT: But I guess what happened, I was 19 reading through some depositions the other night -- 20 MR. FUGATE: They were stamped "Confidential." 21 THE COURT: I'm thinking, what is this? These 22 things were introduced. They can't be confidential. 23 So whoever was told that needs to be told, 24 sorry, we have done the best we could, but once they 25 get introduced, they are not confidential. 746 1 MR. FUGATE: Well, I understand that. That is 2 the distinction I made is everything that has gone 3 into the court, is in the file, is public record. 4 And the affidavits, I think, are not. And that 5 is because there was a hearing on those and there 6 was an order from Judge Moody. 7 But I will check, and I'll let the Court know 8 tomorrow, when I come back, as to what that is and 9 give you a copy of the order. 10 THE COURT: Okay. And, frankly, if -- if -- I 11 need to see a transcript of it. I mean, I need to 12 see that Judge Moody invited the press. Because if 13 he didn't invite the press and do a prior hearing 14 then, in fact, at any time, those are not sealed, 15 they are not validly sealed. So unless Judge Moody 16 had an order that he signed after he invited the 17 press, the appropriate press, to object, and if they 18 didn't object, that is their problem. 19 If they did object and he made a ruling, thank 20 you very much for coming, they are sealed, that is 21 fine. 22 But if I just got some order signed by Judge 23 Moody, who didn't do what I just told you has to be 24 done, it is not sealed and it will not be sealed in 25 my court file. 747 1 MR. FUGATE: I'll not trust my recollection 2 because that was a number of years ago. But I'll go 3 get the transcript and the order and give that to 4 your Honor to look at. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, it is your turn. 6 MR. DANDAR: One last time. I believe there is 7 an order in the March of '98 amended order with the 8 press that says once it is filed with the Court, it 9 is not confidential any more. So anything that you 10 have -- 11 THE COURT: Oh, then that is good. Then 12 everybody should know that. 13 MR. FUGATE: That's right, your Honor. I 14 thought I said that. But if I didn't, everything -- 15 THE COURT: I thought you were telling me there 16 were affidavits that were sealed. And if they were 17 sealed, then I need to unseal them unless there has 18 been some hearing where the press has been invited. 19 MR. FUGATE: That is the exception. That is 20 what I will give you a transcript and order on you 21 can look at. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: The affidavits are still, quote, 24 under seal. There is no court order. So we'll have 25 to have a hearing on that. 748 1 THE COURT: Were they put under seal after 2 notice to the press? 3 MR. DANDAR: No. I voluntarily -- 4 THE COURT: They cannot be sealed. 5 MR. DANDAR: I voluntarily did that. 6 THE COURT: You can't do that, counselor. 7 Please understand you have no ability to seal 8 something in my court file. 9 MR. DANDAR: I agree with you. 10 THE COURT: It can only be sealed after I tell 11 the press, and I have done this in every case since 12 I have been on the bench. As I said, I stamp these 13 things regularly, when these confidential agreements 14 come in between lawyers, I tell -- if I don't just 15 have a stack of stuff -- I am sure I have signed a 16 few, probably when I have 50,000 things to sign and 17 I'm in a rush -- but if I see them, I tell my 18 secretary, stamp it "Would not sign," and I explain 19 to them I cannot agree with them. If they file it 20 in the court file and they really mean it, they'll 21 have to tell me, I have to notice the press and we 22 have to have a hearing. 23 When I tell them that, "Well, we don't want to 24 bother with that." 25 I tell them, "Okay, then it is not under seal." 749 1 MR. FUGATE: I'll do what I said, Judge. I'll 2 get you the transcript and the order, because I 3 can't remember. 4 THE COURT: But we can assume all of the 5 depositions that have been filed, nobody violated 6 anything, because if it is filed, it's not sealed. 7 MR. FUGATE: That is correct. 8 THE COURT: I'm sure I filed stuff -- I mean, 9 we have had Frye hearings. Things have been filed. 10 They are open, anything I filed. 11 MR. FUGATE: Anything in the court file, 12 deposition-wise, is public record. 13 THE COURT: Okay. I think I have this, but for 14 some reason I could not find it. I will look one 15 more time in my office, and I'm sure it is there. I 16 was just kind of frantically looking for odds and 17 ends, as well, for this hearing, this weekend. 18 I need the transcript on the severe sanction 19 hearing involving Mr. Prince. I think somebody gave 20 it to me, or I got parts of it. 21 I know what happened was I got an order from 22 Mr. Dandar. I got an objection from Mr. Moxon. 23 And, Mr. Moxon, you may have put with that a 24 portion of the transcript. 25 MR. MOXON: I -- I thought -- 750 1 THE COURT: Maybe you didn't. 2 MR. MOXON: We'll be happy to give you a 3 transcript. 4 MR. DANDAR: We did that. 5 THE COURT: Somebody gave me -- 6 MR. MOXON: That is right, Mr. Dandar gave you 7 a little piece of transcript. 8 THE COURT: A little piece. Little pieces are 9 no good. I need the transcript. There is no rush 10 on that. But as I said, I would like to get some of 11 these orders outstanding done. So if somebody could 12 get me that, it would be real appreciated. 13 Maybe I have that. Like I said, I got real 14 frustrated trying to find stuff this weekend, 15 because I have got so much. 16 Okay. The cockroach expert I found and took 17 home. So I'll try to do that order finally, because 18 I want to put a little something in there regarding 19 that. 20 So -- I'm talking to myself. I'm prattling on 21 the record. 22 MR. DANDAR: Could I make a comment about that? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 MR. DANDAR: When you consider writing that 25 order, would you please consider the fact that the 751 1 evidence that you say is missing is missing because 2 of the defendant's actions, not because of the 3 plaintiff? 4 THE COURT: Well, you know, counselor, I don't 5 need to hear that. 6 MR. DANDAR: All right. 7 THE COURT: Thank you very much. I'm very 8 capable of writing an order after I had a hearing. 9 MR. DANDAR: All right. 10 THE COURT: And, yes, I will certainly consider 11 everything I have. But I don't know what that is 12 all about, and I don't want to hear it. 13 My recollection is is the reason I wrote this 14 down, I wanted to look through your expert's 15 testimony that I believe said something to the 16 effect that to have this damage would require 50 to 17 75 cockroaches. Maybe I'm wrong. I'll have to look 18 through it. 19 That is why I said, there has to be some sort 20 of infestation. And he was asked by counsel, how 21 many would there be? And he mentioned a number. 22 I know, of course, your one doctor, who is not 23 an entomologist, he testified. He said two 24 cockroaches. But he's not the expert. 25 So looking at what the expert said, I wanted to 752 1 use that in my order, so I have it, and I wanted to 2 see what I was thinking. 3 I have some outstanding orders. And I wrote 4 down four of them, it would seem to me, would have 5 some importance. I don't know if I have discovery 6 orders. 7 Do you know what would be nice, to me, I didn't 8 have to deal with all those, I wish they were dealt 9 with before I got into this. 10 I have motion to exclude scientific evidence 11 vitreous outstanding; motion to exclude scientific 12 evidence, cockroaches, outstanding; motion for 13 severe sanctions outstanding; motion to reconsider 14 false imprisonment summary judgment. 15 I have all those four things that I have not 16 entered orders on. 17 Do I have any other major things, I mean, that 18 you-all can think of right offhand? If you can, 19 would you-all think about it and bring them to my 20 attention, because I need to get some orders in the 21 court file. 22 You-all haven't seen some of these. When I get 23 all bogged down, I will write an order so you have 24 it, then I will subject it to being supplemented 25 when the Court has time to do that. So you may see 753 1 some of those. 2 I'm sorry I'm taking so much time. But we're 3 going to go through this. I couldn't -- you know 4 what, there was resubmitted to me Page 1 of the 5 original motion. And I looked through it, and the 6 only thing I could find was just a little bit of 7 different verbiage in the first paragraph. 8 Is there -- am I missing something there? 9 MR. FUGATE: No. Actually, that -- 10 THE COURT: Why was that done? I mean -- 11 MR. FUGATE: It was -- it was a word processing 12 drop. There was, I think, a phrase that was dropped 13 out of the original. And actually what Mr. Moxon, I 14 think, did is prepared that and submitted it, and we 15 had said that we would just note it and -- and you 16 would write it in and initial it, rather than submit 17 it. But it was already submitted. 18 THE COURT: All right. Well, at some point I 19 started looking at the true and trying to compare 20 line by line. And I thought, what am I doing this 21 for. 22 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, we should have 23 highlighted it. It is literally about six words out 24 of the first sentence. 25 THE COURT: At some point I'll give that to you 754 1 and you tell me, and what I'll do, on my copy, write 2 it in. 3 MR. MOXON: All right. 4 THE COURT: The thing I did notice, in the 5 footnote I saw Mr. Minton provided three affidavits. 6 This the on the re- -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Recantation. 8 THE COURT: -- recantation affidavit that -- 9 Ms. Brooks filed two. I have both of Ms. Brooks' 10 and I have two of Mr. Minton's. I don't remember 11 ever seeing a third one. 12 MR. FUGATE: You should -- I think you have the 13 second and the third, and there was actually a 14 first. And -- and if it's not there, we'll get a 15 copy of it. 16 THE COURT: At some point in time let me show 17 you what I have. I know I only have two. 18 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 19 THE COURT: Because I looked real carefully. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we only have two. 21 THE COURT: If there is a third one, I don't 22 know what it is. So I better get it, and give a 23 copy to counsel. 24 MR. WEINBERG: There is a third one, and it was 25 submitted by Mr. Howie on April 29th, 2002. I have 755 1 seen a notice of filing. 2 THE COURT: Is it a later one, or an earlier 3 one? 4 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court -- 5 THE COURT: Hi, Mr. Howie. 6 MR. HOWIE: It was an earlier one. And it is 7 not titled "First Affidavit." Obviously when 8 written, we didn't contemplate subsequent 9 affidavits. But I did file it and served it on all 10 of -- 11 THE COURT: You probably did, and gave it to 12 me, but somehow I only have two. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Here is another copy. 14 THE COURT: Thank you. 15 MR. DANDAR: Do you have an extra copy? 16 MR. WEINBERG: I don't have an extra one. But 17 we'll get you an extra one. 18 THE COURT: Oh, no, I don't have this. So -- I 19 don't believe I ever saw this. So this must be the 20 third one. 21 Mr. Howie, maybe you gave it to me and maybe 22 you had all these copies to send out -- I don't 23 recall seeing it. 24 MR. HOWIE: I'm afraid I don't have any 25 independent recollection. But I would have filed 756 1 the original, probably by my own hand, downstairs. 2 THE COURT: I have no doubt about that. And 3 I'm sure you served everybody you served. But 4 whether you served me, I don't know. And you don't 5 have to serve me, but whether you sent me a copy, I 6 haven't seen it before, so now I have got it. That 7 takes care of that. 8 Since you are here, I did indicate that if you 9 have some objection to what was requested to be 10 produced, that I suspect we might ought to want to 11 take that up before he testifies so that if they 12 want to ask him questions and you had some 13 objections and it hasn't been resolved, I don't want 14 to go through -- I would like this hearing to be 15 done. So I'll either sustain the objection, 16 overrule the objection. If I overrule the 17 objection, I would expect it to be produced. 18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I have a written 19 response to the request for production. And I'll 20 provide that to everyone here. 21 THE COURT: I assume that is something you'll 22 deal with when it is his turn to testify. 23 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Because when I got his books -- it 25 was kind of handed up to me when she got on the 757 1 stand. So we'll deal with hers this afternoon. 2 Just be ready. 3 In other words, I'm going to probably say we 4 ought to deal with that before he testifies, or 5 right soon. 6 MR. HOWIE: Thank you. 7 THE COURT: All right. So I have already told 8 you I think those are the four orders that I 9 consider -- that I still have outstanding to do. 10 And I need to have you-all tell me, if you can 11 remember, others that I -- that I haven't done. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, on Page 267 of Dr. Goff's 13 deposition he does, at Line 12 and 13, make a guess 14 at 40 to 50 roaches. 15 THE COURT: Okay. That is what I'm thinking. 16 To cause the injuries he was describing, right? 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes. But he's guessing. 18 THE COURT: Well, I understand that, counselor, 19 but -- 20 MR. DANDAR: That is what he says. 21 THE COURT: -- that is going in my order. In 22 other words, when I suggest to you I need something 23 more before I'll let that prejudicial testimony in, 24 that is what I'm talking about. I want something 25 where you can show that there is a bunch of 758 1 cockroaches, maybe not 40 to 50, but sure more than 2 two. See? 3 And if you don't have it, you don't get the 4 testimony. And that will be in my order, and I'll 5 be citing from that expert of yours, page and line, 6 maybe. Or maybe it will just be a little order 7 saying it will be supplemented later when I have got 8 the time. But that influenced me. 9 I'm going to do one of these -- one of these 10 pages, I'll save the second page until after lunch 11 or we'll not get anything done. 12 I have got that. 13 I don't know how we're going to do this. This 14 is, I guess, sort of important. I don't know how 15 we're going to do this. 16 I think I remembered the Church saying, at some 17 point in time, that there was more summary judgments 18 or more motions to be forthcoming once we finish 19 with this one. Obviously, an allegation in this -- 20 in this motion is that there was some impropriety in 21 the very complaint that was drafted and that there 22 is no basis in truth or fact for the affidavit -- 23 I'm sorry, for the complaint that we are riding 24 under here, the fifth complaint. 25 I think I told you all early on that I guess 759 1 I -- I mean, Mr. Fugate provided me all these 2 materials. And I know I looked at them. But I just 3 don't normally study a complaint that much. So I 4 obviously had not studied it to the extent that I 5 now have studied it. 6 At some point in time, they are either going to 7 be filing a motion, or it may have -- it may have 8 some import on this hearing. It certainly would 9 have some import on the counterclaim, I would 10 assume, as to whether or not there is some proof of 11 this. 12 But even past that, I don't want to go through 13 a two-month trial to enter a directed verdict. I 14 mean, you know what I'm saying? In other words, you 15 said this is your complaint, this is the complaint 16 you are traveling under, the intentional actions 17 of -- and all of the stuff that is said in there, 18 which obviously I have been told by the other side 19 is just not true, is false. 20 This is an awfully long trial to go through if 21 you don't have any proof. So I don't know whether 22 they are going to file a motion, or whether I'm 23 going to hear this throughout the course of this -- 24 sit down, Mr. Fugate. 25 MR. FUGATE: I was going to answer your 760 1 question. 2 THE COURT: You don't need to now because I'm 3 talking. 4 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 5 THE COURT: At some point in time, I need to 6 know -- and I think even bears on this -- what 7 evidence you have that you are going to produce in 8 this trial to prove these things. I don't want you 9 to have to give away to the other side here your 10 trial strategy. I don't think that is fair. 11 But like I have heard so much about the Prince 12 affidavit, I have now read it for the second time. 13 But you are telling me Mr. Prince is not your 14 witness. 15 Well, if he's not, who do you have that is 16 going to attest to -- I mean, it's in his affidavit, 17 the stuff in that complaint. And so if he was going 18 to come in and testify to that in court, well, that 19 is his testimony. 20 I have been very clear on telling you he would 21 be allowed, under Florida law, to testify. I'm sure 22 he'll be cross-examined about his bias. And that is 23 just very clear. It's very clear to me. Whatever 24 that means will be for a jury. 25 Well, you have told me he's not going to 761 1 testify. 2 MR. DANDAR: Right. 3 THE COURT: Maybe you are going to use 4 Ms. Brooks here to testify. You can certainly call 5 her as an adverse witness to testify. And she 6 indicated she was a participant in some of that. I 7 don't know. Maybe you don't want Ms. Brooks. 8 Several people you have listed and then you 9 have withdrawn. If you don't have a witness, well, 10 we can do quick work of this, either get this into a 11 wrongful death posture with negligence -- I think 12 your own experts certainly would put this in the 13 category of gross negligence, some of them. And I 14 think you have one. 15 And I did, believe it or not, you know, I was 16 going to Atlanta, I expected to enjoy my weekend, 17 but I was here reading this. I read those doctors' 18 testimony again. I went in and got them, and I did 19 see where one of your experts suggested he's not 20 sure if they're telling the truth based -- he does 21 not necessarily agree with that. That is Dr. Spitz, 22 I believe. 23 So I don't know if that is what you are riding 24 on, or you have somebody -- but there is -- there 25 are some allegations that have the Church in a stew. 762 1 And I can understand that. It would have me in a 2 stew, too, if I were a member of that church or 3 congregation, or if I were a leader. If you don't 4 have proof or somebody to come in and testify to 5 that, we need to get it out of there. 6 If you do, I need to know who it is. But I -- 7 you know, you have to tell them who your witnesses 8 are. 9 So, as I said, I read Mr. Prince's affidavit. 10 Is he a witness of yours? 11 MR. DANDAR: He was. To be honest with you, 12 I'm desperately trying to get an ex-Scientologist as 13 a witness to testify. 14 But I do have three pathologists who called 15 this a homicide of intentional medical neglect. 16 THE COURT: Well, that is quite different from 17 what you have in your complaint. You can't make 18 these allegations and -- you can't make those 19 allegations and let me think we're going to trial in 20 front of a jury on some theory that the Church had 21 some -- some oppressive person in end cycle Fair 22 Game, and she was a public relations nemesis to 23 them, so they just decided to let her die. But you 24 don't have proof to that. 25 I don't want some story being written by some 763 1 newspaper that comes in here and publishes it saying 2 this is what this case is all about, because it 3 isn't. If it is about whether or not there was 4 gross negligence, and that they classify this as a 5 homicide due to, in essence, a manslaughter type of 6 negligence, well, then that is what we need to be 7 knowing we're going to trial on. 8 So you are saying you are trying desperately. 9 Well, the trial is coming up. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, you know, I -- 11 THE COURT: I'm just putting you on notice. As 12 I said, I don't know whether the Church plans to 13 file something, because I know you had indicated 14 there was a couple more summary judgments I was 15 going to hear. 16 MR. FUGATE: That I what I rose to tell you. 17 We'll file, probably tomorrow, a motion on net 18 accumulations, a motion on judgment on the 19 pleadings, and bench memo that goes to the issues 20 that we're -- 21 THE COURT: Judgment on the pleadings won't 22 help you much. The pleadings withstood a motion to 23 dismiss. 24 I think the question is does he have any proof 25 of that. 764 1 MR. FUGATE: That would be the direction -- 2 THE COURT: You are going to file something 3 that -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Let's put it this way. We're 5 going to file something and file it tomorrow. 6 THE COURT: I understand your dilemma. As I 7 told you, and as I will tell you again, I'm of the 8 belief, I always have been of the belief, if you 9 subpoena Mr. Prince to court, he will testify for 10 you. That is your decision as to whether or not -- 11 MR. DANDAR: I may just do that then. 12 THE COURT: Well, you may have to. I mean, if 13 that is what you want to do. But, I mean, 14 Mr. Prince is coming in to testify in this hearing, 15 you said. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes, he is. 17 THE COURT: As I said, Mr. Prince would 18 testify, if asked. I understand why you might not 19 wish to make him your expert witness of the Church 20 because of his obvious bias, and bias can be 21 cross-examined very thoroughly. And, therefore, the 22 jury will know of that. And I have made my -- you 23 know, I have made that known before, that I think 24 Mr. Prince has some problems. 25 But I have also researched the Florida law, as 765 1 you'll recall, because I had some problems in the 2 severe sanction motion as to whether or not he could 3 be called, under Florida law, with the amount of 4 bias I believe he had. And I determined he could 5 be. 6 In other words, I resolved that law against the 7 Church, in your favor, that he, under Florida law, 8 could be called. 9 But, of course, the Florida law is also very 10 clear that absolute cross-examination is permitted 11 in every possible type of bias and what have you. 12 So I need to know what kind of complaint we are 13 flying under. One, it's quite different from some 14 pathologist coming in, saying the degree of 15 negligence I saw is akin to manslaughter. 16 Therefore, I call it a homicide. 17 I mean, I have that nursing home case. I mean, 18 we give punitive damages to a jury on nursing home 19 cases where nobody is suggesting that somebody stood 20 by and let them die. That is a horse of a different 21 color. So I want to know here what we have here 22 that we're flying on. 23 MR. DANDAR: Even my medical experts say that, 24 with or without Mr. Prince. 25 THE COURT: You have one expert who says he has 766 1 problems with the testimony of the -- of the 2 witnesses because he believes they would have been 3 aware of her absolute desperate need for medical 4 attention and, therefore, he does not believe -- 5 MR. DANDAR: I think Dr. Bandt and Dr. Spitz 6 both expressed that. Maybe -- 7 THE COURT: You are giving Dr. Bandt too much 8 credit. If you really want to know, I wrote it 9 down, and I probably have it sitting right down here 10 on the bench, what he says. He classifies it as a 11 homicide and classifies it as gross negligence. 12 That would be akin to a manslaughter. That is -- 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 THE COURT: That is quite different from 15 somebody standing by, intentionally allowing 16 somebody to die pursuant to some religious paper 17 that says they are going to end cycle because she's 18 a public relations nuisance. 19 MR. DANDAR: He doesn't explain that. 20 THE COURT: No, he does not. 21 THE COURT: And that is the complaint, you see. 22 So we're going to have to get this thing in good 23 order. I don't know what we do at this stage. 24 MR. DANDAR: I can certainly amend it if I 25 can't get Mr. Prince or someone like him to testify. 767 1 THE COURT: Well, I have got to know. We'll 2 have to have a date at which we say this is the date 3 and we're going to decide -- I keep using "we." 4 Luckily I use it for both sides. So we're going to 5 decide here whether you are going to get Mr. Prince 6 in here, or somebody like Mr. Prince, who will make 7 these allegations or not. 8 MR. DANDAR: All right. 9 THE COURT: And so if you don't have that, then 10 we're going to get down to whatever it is you think 11 we have. 12 MR. DANDAR: All right. 13 THE COURT: So the Church knows what it is they 14 are defending. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: All right? So I'm putting you on 17 notice of that. As I said, if we -- when we do 18 that, if you have some -- you want to do a notice of 19 filing and do an in-camera hearing, as long as you 20 do a notice of filing and advise them we're going to 21 do an in-camera hearing, I may or may not do that. 22 But as I said, I don't want you to have to 23 stand up in court and tell them every bit of your -- 24 you know, what it is you plan to do. But I think at 25 some point I have to know whether that is what we're 768 1 going to be reading about or hearing about, or 2 whether we're going to be reading and hearing about 3 some gross negligence beliefs on the part of the 4 physicians that you have summoned as experts. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 THE COURT: Okay. That is two pages. I have 7 two more. I think what we'll do is we'll stop for 8 now. I'm always dangerous when I'm given time, 9 especially time that I set aside to do something 10 more fun, because I sent everybody out and I just 11 had at it with all this stuff. So, all right. 12 Hello (to witness). 13 THE WITNESS: Hello, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: I think we're ready. 15 THE WITNESS: Could we take a few-minute break? 16 THE COURT: Yes. In fact, you didn't need to 17 sit there. When I'm on this, you don't have to sit 18 there. All right? 19 If this happens again, like if I get this sheet 20 out, you are free to get up and -- and travel 21 around, do whatever you want. 22 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: But we'll take a break. Since you 24 didn't know that, you have been sitting here all 25 this time. It is ten after. Ten minutes enough, 769 1 ma'am? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is fine. 3 THE COURT: Well, we'll take a 15-minute break 4 for my court reporter. 5 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 6 ______________________________________ 7 THE COURT: Counsel, I'm looking at something 8 in obviously blue ink you handed to me, I don't care 9 because I would ignore your comments, but it looks 10 like this is your original. 11 MR. LIROT: I'll ask Mr. Dandar to look at it. 12 MR. DANDAR: May I look at it? I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: This is blue. This is blue. 14 MR. DANDAR: I'll get you another one. I'm 15 sorry. 16 MR. WEINBERG: What is it? 17 THE COURT: The thing he gave me, the petition 18 for Writ of Certiorari, had his notes on it. I 19 said, I can ignore those, but some are his original 20 notes. I assume he wanted it. 21 MR. DANDAR: Here is a clean copy. 22 THE COURT: All right. I was thumbing through 23 this motion, what was styled the defendant's motion 24 for rehearing en banc, which apparently was filed -- 25 I can't really tell, I guess if I look at the back I 770 1 can tell -- the 18th of April of 2002. 2 Just reading the beginning, and starting to 3 read the evidence to that time, was Mr. Minton 4 declaring he committed perjury, perjurious 5 affidavit, and on and on. When I say on and on, I 6 mean whatever else was in the hands of the Church at 7 that time was made known to the Second District. 8 Their order of the Court treats the rehearing 9 en banc as a motion for rehearing that is denied. 10 Therefore, it is pretty obvious to me, at least at 11 this point, the Second District means for their 12 order to have meaning and, therefore, I will give 13 you, Mr. Dandar, and your client, if that is 14 necessary, although I don't know what your client 15 would know about your expenditures or anything like 16 this, but based on the testimony I will give you an 17 order you may carry with you in the event this 18 becomes an issue in front of any other judge, 19 hearing officer, trial resolution judge or anything 20 of the sort. 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, it's -- there is a hearing 22 still pending in the federal court in Tampa by 23 Religious Technology Center with their judgment from 24 the federal court in Texas, trying to garnish my 25 bank accounts, depose me, and ask me all these 771 1 questions, that we brought to that Court's attention 2 the Second District Court opinion. 3 And last week we won that hearing, but they 4 filed a more -- more authority. So that is still 5 pending. I don't know if your order would have 6 effect in the federal court. 7 THE COURT: I'm sure they could care less. 8 However, I will give it to you and you may tote it 9 with you. 10 And what I'm really trying to avoid here is 11 the -- the fact there is a somewhat related case 12 being filed in another court. And I have agreed 13 that it's a separate cause of action. But -- but 14 it's close enough related where either I'll take it 15 over if I don't -- I mean, some of these 16 depositions, as I read it, disturbed me, too. 17 Because I can understand even why Mr. Minton thought 18 the Court was treating him poorly. He goes up 19 there, gets deposed 200 or 300 pages, then comes 20 down in this case and gets deposed for 200 or 300 21 pages. I can only speak to the depositions I have 22 read. 23 The same with the plaintiff in this case. This 24 lady and Mr. Minton, both of whom apparently know 25 very little about the wrongful death. And they get 772 1 deposed in both cases. 2 That should not happen. And I don't know who 3 their lawyers are, but somebody ought to be making a 4 motion to protect that. And as far as I know, the 5 only thing I have ever ruled on in the form of any 6 type of request in that regard is Mr. Minton's 7 taking the Fifth Amendment whether he waived the 8 privilege. And I wrestled with that for some time 9 and ruled that he had. 10 But other than that, I don't know that I have 11 ever seen anything filed on behalf of Ms. Liebreich 12 or Mr. Minton or Mr. Brooks or anything else. 13 What did you file? 14 MR. DANDAR: I asked you the stop the latest 15 round of 2002 when Mr. Moxon deposed Ms. Liebreich. 16 And you said yes, she can be deposed again. 17 THE COURT: Did you hand me all her 18 depositions? The deal is I have got to see it, you 19 have to tell me how many pages it is, what has been 20 asked -- 21 MR. DANDAR: You said if they asked the same 22 questions that they asked before, sanctions will be 23 asserted. 24 THE COURT: The problem is, and what I see 25 now -- and I'm going to tell some discovery panel 773 1 this, is what happens, and I forgot about this -- 2 unlike a criminal deposition, they ask a question, 3 the objection is made, but you can't stop the 4 deposition, you can't stop the witness from 5 answering. 6 So we can't have that. Just can't have it. I 7 mean, there is too much repetition being gone on 8 here. You cannot use the Court by filing somewhat 9 duplicitous lawsuits to depose the same witness two 10 times. 11 MR. MOXON: Just one comment, your Honor. I 12 know, in reading the transcript of Ms. Liebreich in 13 the other case, that the attorney taking her 14 deposition asked Mr. Dandar if he would stipulate 15 her prior depositions could be entered in. And he 16 said no. So -- 17 THE COURT: I don't remember reading that. 18 MR. MOXON: Yes. 19 THE COURT: I'm not saying it is not there 20 because, again, I read these and try to read these 21 carefully. But you can imagine, as long as these 22 depositions are, there are times I -- 23 MR. MOXON: Yes, so you get the point there. 24 THE COURT: The deal is as far as I'm 25 concerned, people like Mr. Minton, people like 774 1 Ms. Liebreich, these sort of witnesses have very 2 little information about the wrongful death case, 3 which I thought we were pursuing at the moment, 4 that, you know, frankly, if need be, I'll sit in on 5 the depositions. 6 I have read -- I have read about this 7 agreement. I mean, I'm looking here at -- I am 8 looking at Ms. Liebreich's book here of her 9 depositions, not nearly as long as Mr. Minton, and 10 I'm looking at one, two, three, four, five separate 11 depositions. And I'm looking at compressed 12 transcripts, four to a page, front and back on some 13 of them. I can't have somebody -- I read and read 14 and read -- I was trying to make some notes myself 15 on the agreement, I can't tell you how many -- ten 16 twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, sixty pages, I had to 17 look at this. 18 Then, of course, when I see she tried to be 19 impeached from one little split of one -- I mean, I 20 can't imagine anything worse than that. 21 So it just ain't going to happen. You can't do 22 it. You can't use two separate lawsuits and go one 23 place and the other place. It just can't happen. 24 For impeachment purposes, counselor, you can 25 use any deposition any place for impeachment. You 775 1 cannot introduce it into evidence. 2 In other words -- well, I guess you can in a 3 civil case. 4 MR. MOXON: No -- 5 THE COURT: But I suspect plaintiff will be 6 here to testify. 7 MR. MOXON: No, I was just talking about the 8 deposition of Ms. Liebreich in another case. They 9 tried to say, look, let's introduce her testimony 10 from another case in this case and that will shorten 11 the deposition. Mr. Dandar said, "No, I don't want 12 to do this." 13 THE COURT: Well, I had said she was not to be 14 asked about things she had already testified about. 15 I see the objection made. The problem is there is 16 nothing that can be done at that point. 17 What I'm saying is here is the whole problem 18 with that, is the other lawyer can just say answer 19 the question, answer the question. In other words, 20 you can't stop the deposition. 21 So, consequently, even though the objection has 22 been made, there is nothing that can be done for the 23 witness to not require the witness to have to answer 24 the same questions thirty or forty different times. 25 I ought not to allow that to happen. 776 1 I apologize to Ms. Liebreich about that. And 2 if Mr. Minton comes in, I will apologize to him. I 3 think they have been mistreated by the discovery 4 process. And I'm not suggesting by you, Mr. Moxon, 5 or by you. I'm suggesting the various courts that 6 have separate proceedings going on don't really 7 realize what is happening in another proceeding. 8 I can't care less about what Judge Baird does. 9 He can't care less about what I do. But I think 10 what we are realizing is when you combine these 11 things, there are situations that the Court ought to 12 stop. Maybe I just didn't realize it. I do now. 13 As I said, having had the opportunity to read 14 Mr. Minton's many, many, mega, mega depositions, 15 frankly, he was treated unfairly by the courts, the 16 court's process. I should have stopped that. The 17 same is true with Ms. Liebreich. Too many 18 depositions. I'm not saying you, Mr. Moxon, because 19 Mr. Rosen, apparently, who is not a member of the 20 Florida Bar -- neither of these people are members 21 of the Florida Bar, taking these multi-depositions, 22 asking the same thing. I'm not going to allow it 23 anymore in this proceeding. 24 MR. MOXON: Okay. Maybe I didn't make myself 25 clear. I'm sorry -- 777 1 THE COURT: Okay, you made yourself clear, 2 Mr. Moxon. And, I believe, so did I. And if I 3 didn't, I'll make myself clearer. But I suspect 4 that is all you really want to hear from me right 5 now about it. 6 I didn't like it. I didn't like having to read 7 it all. And I sure didn't like having to read the 8 same thing over and over and over. And I rather 9 suspect you-all have copies of those other 10 depositions when you were asking your questions. 11 And you don't want to hear from me any more. I made 12 myself clear. 13 All right? 14 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: With that, you may continue. 16 MR. LIROT: Thank you very much, your Honor. 17 Judge, this morning Mr. Fugate presented us 18 with a very -- I'll say probably about an 8- to 19 10-inch stack of papers which I believe he 20 represented were the documents presented to 21 Ms. Brooks that she had reviewed in an effort to 22 produce her affidavit. 23 Is that what I understand this to be? 24 MR. FUGATE: What we have produced are the 25 documents that were provided to both Ms. Brooks and 778 1 to Mr. Minton, which was the request to produce by 2 you. And that is what you have got there. Those 3 are copies, I should say, of the documents that were 4 produced. 5 MR. LIROT: All right. And they are combined 6 so we don't know which documents were produced 7 specifically to Ms. Brooks'? 8 MR. DANDAR: These are Brooks' only. 9 MR. LIROT: That is not what he just said. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, there is a separate -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Well, have you taken them apart? 12 I don't know -- 13 14 MS. WEST: Yes, that is one section. That is 15 another. 16 MR. LIROT: I guess my question to you is we 17 kept them basically separated from how they were 18 given to us. Was one folio the documents given to 19 Ms. Brooks, and one folio the documents given to 20 Mr. Minton? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. These are the Minton 22 documents here. 23 MR. LIROT: We don't know. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, all I know, we gave 25 them -- the request to produce, I gave them all of 779 1 the documents. And I don't know how they have been 2 divided out. That is the only thing I'm hesitating 3 about answering. I have given them every document 4 that I'm aware of that was a -- a copy of that was 5 given to Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton. Are you 6 saying -- 7 MR. LIROT: My question -- 8 THE COURT: What his question is does he have 9 one stack given to Ms. Brooks and one to Mr. Minton? 10 If not, would you be good enough to separate them 11 out for him. I think that is what he's saying. 12 MR. LIROT: That is exactly correct. 13 MS. WEST: Not mixed? 14 THE COURT: Maybe if you take a look, you'll be 15 able to tell us. 16 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I can say -- 17 MR. DANDAR: I can say -- I can say Mr. Fugate, 18 when he handed me the documents this morning, said 19 the smaller one was the Minton documents -- 20 MR. FUGATE: Brooks. 21 THE COURT: And the thicker one was the -- 22 was Brooks? 23 MR. MOXON: That is not right. 24 MR. DANDAR: Was it backwards? 25 MR. MOXON: Neither way. They were all given 780 1 together for both of them. 2 MR. DANDAR: Then they are all mixed up. One 3 is highlighted. The small pack is not highlighted. 4 The big pack has highlighting on it. 5 THE COURT: Well, the testimony, I suppose, was 6 hers were highlighted. So maybe that is what was 7 given to her, if it is highlighted. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, we'll be glad to go through 9 them and look at them and re- -- I guess, 10 reconstruct which is which. But for the sake of the 11 record those are copies of all of the documents that 12 reflect both document requests. And we'll go back 13 through and try to separate them out again -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. FUGATE: -- if that is what we're being 16 asked to do. 17 THE COURT: Now then, you stated about -- you 18 were talking about 8 inches. What is it you wanted 19 to tell me? 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, our questions were about 21 what documents Ms. Brooks received and why she felt 22 she needed to go through these to set the record 23 straight. Those were the lines of questions we had 24 asked. 25 In response, they have given us, apparently, a 781 1 stack of both what was given to Ms. Brooks and 2 Mr. Minton. I don't want to waste any more of the 3 court time than I have to, asking her -- 4 THE COURT: You don't ever waste court time. 5 As I said, this is an important allegation. That is 6 why I have been as patient as I have, which I assume 7 everybody would know I have been very patient in 8 this proceeding because it's important. 9 I understand what you're saying. If you could 10 at some point in time -- I think what he needs so he 11 can properly cross-examine, perhaps, what did she 12 have versus what did he have, in two separate 13 stacks, if you can do that. 14 MR. FUGATE: Okay, Judge. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, I might even be able to save 16 more time. If I just go through this with 17 Ms. Brooks as quickly as possible, if she doesn't 18 remember going through it, then I'll go by her 19 testimony. 20 THE COURT: Okay. See if you can do something 21 without those documents. And at lunch time -- and 22 she just indicated to me her lawyer would know what 23 she had. Or maybe you can hand them to her, ask her 24 to look at them. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Some are the depositions of Stacy 782 1 Brooks. And, obviously, that would be her 2 testimony. And some of it would be the testimony of 3 Robert Minton. And it would not be. So we're 4 talking about her testimony. I understand a lot is 5 deposition testimony. It would be on the -- 6 THE COURT: I don't know -- I mean, I don't 7 know if you are aware of what she looked at, if you 8 were there or not. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Some of it. 10 THE COURT: But I know there was some testimony 11 that you may not have been there for part of it, so 12 I really think she'll have to be the one that tells 13 us what all she saw. 14 MR. LIROT: Then, Judge, what we'll do, we'll 15 hold off until after the break, go through it with 16 Mr. McGowan, and I'll pick it up where I left off. 17 THE COURT: That sounds good. 18 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 19 _____________________________________ 20 STACY BROOKS, 21 the witness herein, having been previously sworn on oath, 22 was examined and testified as follows: 23 CROSS-EXAMINATION RESUMED 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, I believe last week you were 783 1 testifying as to some of the meetings you held. And I 2 believe you testified to a March 28 and March 29 meeting, 3 and also some meetings in early April where you were 4 presented with a stack of documents. 5 Just to help us out, do you recall how thick the 6 stack of documents was that you were presented with to go 7 over? 8 A The only time I was presented with a stack, that I 9 recall, is the day that Mr. Fugate and my attorney and I 10 received a stack of documents from Mr. Fugate. 11 Q Do you remember what date that was? 12 A Mmm, I believe last Tuesday Mr. Fugate gave you a 13 letter dated April 15th. And in my own memory, I don't -- I 14 couldn't tell you a date. But I believe that that letter 15 was given to -- the letter was created the day of that 16 meeting, I believe. 17 Q So that the date of April 15 on the letter is the 18 day you got the documents from Mr. Fugate? 19 A As I understood it, that letter was -- was for the 20 purpose of that meeting, being able to happen that day. 21 Q All right. Had you gotten any documents from 22 anybody with the Church of Scientology or their counsel or 23 anybody, what I'll say, in a position adverse to the estate, 24 prior to April 15th? 25 A I had seen some, but I had not received any. No. 784 1 Q Where had you seen some of those documents? 2 A At Mr. Pope's office. 3 Q Do you remember what date that was? 4 A No. 5 Q Was that the Sunday meeting? Could that have been 6 an April 6th meeting? 7 MR. DANDAR: Saturday. 8 A Mmm, I -- I don't recall whether there were any -- 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q Well, I tell you what. Let me just tell you what 11 I understand the meetings to be, and maybe you can help me. 12 I'll ask you. Give me, again, the sequence of the meetings. 13 You had a meeting on March 28 in New York. 14 Correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And that was a relatively short meeting? 17 A No. That was a lengthy meeting. 18 Q All right. Then you had a meeting on March 29 in 19 New York? 20 A Yes. 21 Q That was the shorter meeting? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. What was the next meeting? Was that 24 in Florida? 25 A Yes. 785 1 Q All right. Do you remember when that meeting was? 2 A That was on Saturday, April 6, I believe. 3 Q All right. And the next meeting after that was 4 when? 5 A I believe there was a meeting on the Sunday, but, 6 you see, for most of this -- well, for that -- you know, 7 there were some preparation for Mr. Minton that didn't 8 really involve me very much. So I think it would be -- 9 Mr. Minton would be able to tell you more about it than I 10 would. 11 Q All right. But on the 7th -- and as I understand 12 it, Mr. Minton was to be before Judge Schaeffer on the 8th? 13 That was the contempt hearing? 14 A No. Judge Baird, on the 9th. 15 Q Judge Baird, on the 9th? 16 THE COURT: I think our hearing was on the 5th. 17 MR. FUGATE: It was on the 5th. 18 A This was the day before. That is how come we went 19 and talked to him. 20 MR. FUGATE: Or the 4th. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q All right. So on Sunday, the 7th, you met. And 23 was that to go over any documents, was that to prepare any 24 affidavits, or -- 25 A No -- sorry. 786 1 Q -- just to go over Mr. Minton's testimony in front 2 of Judge Baird? 3 A No, it wasn't to go over his testimony, per se. 4 But it was primarily speaking to him about his -- the 5 information that he wanted to recant. And so not involving 6 me very much. 7 Q All right. Were any documents presented to you 8 that day on the 7th? 9 A Not that I recall. 10 Q Were any documents given to Mr. Minton on the 7th? 11 A I don't remember. 12 Q Who was in attendance on April 7th? And this is a 13 day or two before Judge Baird's contempt hearing. Right? 14 A Yes. And the day before his -- Mr. Minton's 15 deposition. 16 Q All right. So who was in attendance at a meeting 17 on the 7th? 18 A I believe Mr. Rinder. Perhaps Mr. Howie. I don't 19 recall. I believe Mr. Jonas didn't arrive until the morning 20 of the next day, on Monday. 21 And so Mr. Howie may have been there that day. I 22 don't remember. I know he was there the next morning with 23 Mr. Jonas, before the deposition, preparing Mr. Minton for 24 his deposition. 25 Q Okay. Why was Mr. Rinder in attendance on the 787 1 7th? 2 A Why? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Did he participate in the meeting? 6 A Well, yes. Of course, if he was there. 7 Q All right. He was there. In what way? 8 A In what way? Mmm -- 9 Q Did he say anything? Did he say anything at the 10 meeting? 11 A Yes. I think primarily he was there for the 12 purpose of providing whatever transcripts or other -- or 13 other documents Mr. Minton needed in order to remember what 14 he had already testified about. 15 Q Why would Mr. Rinder have any transcripts or any 16 documents? 17 A Well, Mr. Rinder himself didn't. But he was able 18 to ask the paralegals of the Church to pull whatever 19 documents he needed to have pulled. 20 Q Well, weren't -- weren't attorneys for the Church 21 there? 22 A Ms. Yingling may have been there. I don't recall. 23 Q Anybody else at the meeting? 24 A Not that I remember. 25 Q Okay. I guess my question is is Mr. Rinder an 788 1 attorney? 2 A No. 3 Q Does he represent the Church? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. In what way? 6 A Well, he's the Church representative. 7 Q Okay. In what way? I mean, I asked the question. 8 THE COURT: I mean, are you asking what his 9 title is in the Church? Or what? 10 MR. LIROT: Sure. 11 A I don't know what his title is. But he -- I mean, 12 the whole church can't meet with me or Mr. Minton. So 13 Mr. Rinder is the representative. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Okay. Is he an authority figure in the Church? 16 Does he make decisions on litigation policies? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Well, I guess my question -- you have known him 19 for a long time. Right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And he participated with you in adversity in a lot 22 of prior legal actions. Is that correct? 23 A What do you mean, in adversity? 24 Q Well, he was the one, in the '94 declaration, 25 where he came and said, "Here, sign this declaration," and 789 1 obviously the declaration speaks for itself, "Sign this and 2 tell us everything you told this other attorney was a lie," 3 and then you filed a subsequent declaration saying, "These 4 guys are putting pressure on me. They are offering me 5 money." 6 It was Mr. Rinder who was describing that -- 7 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I just object to the 8 testimony. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. The declaration will 10 speak for itself, whatever she said in the 11 declaration. I don't think -- you are not saying it 12 exactly as she did. 13 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Well, you remember the declaration I'm talking 16 about, don't you? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And you were in an adverse position to Mr. Rinder 19 at that point in time. Correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And now we've -- we bring it up to April 7th of 22 2002. And now Mr. Rinder is helping you? 23 A Yes. 24 Q All right. In what way? 25 A As I just testified, he was providing documents if 790 1 Mr. Minton asked for a document, such as a prior deposition 2 and what his testimony had been earlier. 3 Q So let me get this straight. Mr. Minton is asking 4 for specific documents so he can set the record straight. 5 Is that correct? 6 A No. 7 Q All right. So he's just being presented with 8 documents? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. Tell me what happened. 11 A Okay. Mr. Minton had talked about several issues 12 in which his testimony hadn't been accurate. And he wanted 13 to see some of the things that he had said earlier about 14 those subjects. 15 Q Okay. And that was on the 7th? Correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And the Church just coincidentally had all of 18 these documents there to show him where he had allegedly not 19 been truthful in prior testimony? 20 A No. 21 Q Okay. Did he make the request before that? 22 A No. 23 Q Well, how is it the Church shows up on the 7th and 24 they've got a box of -- I guess is it earmarked? Was it 25 highlighted? Were these documents highlighted on April 7? 791 1 A Mr. Lirot, I didn't say they showed up with a box. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't hear that. 3 A I didn't say they showed up with a box. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Okay. What did they show up with? 6 A Mmm, with -- with -- they showed up with 7 themselves. 8 Q On the 7th? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And we have documents changing hands. Correct? 11 A Yes. But he -- yes. 12 Q Okay. How do the documents get in the hands of 13 Mr. Rinder so that he can be helpful? 14 A As I said, he would request a document from 15 another person in the Church who had access to the files. 16 Q All right. And those were already in the law 17 office where you went to for the meeting? 18 A I don't know. 19 THE COURT: Who was this other person? Do you 20 know? 21 THE WITNESS: I'm not really sure. 22 THE COURT: Some -- some person who was not at 23 the meeting? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. I believe there are a 25 number of persons who have access to their legal 792 1 files. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Do you see any of those people in the courtroom 4 today? 5 A I don't recall who was there in that particular 6 meeting, in other words, who was -- who brought a document 7 or not. But someone did. 8 Q Okay. Let me understand this. You are there. 9 This is April 7th. You are there. Mr. Minton is there. 10 Mr. Rinder is there. Ms. Yingling is there. And someone to 11 pull papers is there. 12 A As I said, someone -- he would make a call and 13 say, you know, can you find this, that or whatever. Then 14 someone would bring something, as I recall. 15 Q Is this in Mr. Pope's office that this meeting was 16 held? 17 A I believe it was in a library there. 18 Q A library in Mr. Pope's office? 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. And Mr. Rinder is there, making calls 21 for documents, to whom? Do you know? 22 A I don't know. 23 Q But somebody is showing up with documents? 24 A Mmm, as I recall, some documents were brought in. 25 Q Okay. And do you know if the people bringing in 793 1 the documents were with Mr. Pope's office? 2 A No. They were with the Church. 3 Q Were they there at Mr. Pope's office? Or were 4 they bringing documents over from the Church to Mr. Pope's 5 office? 6 A I can tell you what I assume. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: You want me to? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 A I assume that they were bringing them from Church 11 offices. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Okay. 14 A But I don't know. 15 Q Well, I guess my question is did it take five or 16 ten minutes to get documents after the calls were made? 17 A I don't really know. I mean, I don't know how 18 long it took. 19 Q Thank you. Who was it that identified what 20 documents were necessary to bring over? 21 A Well, as I recall, Mr. Minton was talking about -- 22 Mr. Minton would talk about a particular subject, and if he 23 wanted to have -- if he wanted to look at what he had said 24 earlier on that subject, then he would ask for that. 25 Q Mr. Minton -- 794 1 THE COURT: I'm kind of confused. And I guess 2 the reason I'm kind of confused, because when I want 3 something regarding this case, these lawyers right 4 here are able just to whip it right out and give it 5 to me. It's amazing, because they are very good. I 6 don't know how in the world they can keep it 7 straight, I can't keep my own files in my office 8 straight. But they can. 9 And so I would presume Mr. Fugate could, and 10 Mr. Moxon could, and probably the rest could. 11 But -- they seem to be able to. Mr. Weinberg 12 probably could. He's shaking his head he could not. 13 MR. WEINBERG: I just ask one of them back 14 here. 15 THE COURT: Yes. I haven't seen Mr. Rinder in 16 here. I don't know if he has been here. I don't 17 know Mr. Rinder. I imagine he has been here several 18 times. But if he has, I don't recognize him. 19 But I don't know how -- how he would -- I mean, 20 he's not a lawyer. Was there some thought, keep the 21 lawyers in this case out? They would be the ones 22 most likely to know exactly where everything was. 23 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. But this process 24 was kind of new. Mr. Minton felt comfortable 25 talking to Mr. Rinder. It was obviously a fairly 795 1 awkward situation -- 2 THE COURT: Well, that is -- 3 THE WITNESS: -- under the circumstances. 4 THE COURT: That is who you-all agreed to meet 5 with, was Mr. Rinder, Ms. Yingling -- 6 THE WITNESS: Well, as I said earlier, 7 Mr. Minton and I had worked with Mr. Rinder earlier 8 on a settlement of another case, the FACTNet case. 9 So Mr. Minton was familiar with Mr. Rinder. I'm 10 putting thoughts in Mr. Minton's head, but I believe 11 that he probably thought that he would feel as 12 comfortable as possible dealing with Mr. Rinder. 13 That is my assumption. 14 THE COURT: My recollection of your testimony, 15 when you wanted to make this global settlement, as 16 you have described it, you called Mr. Rinder. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. That is correct. 18 THE COURT: So this was the person that you 19 expected you -- Mr. Minton expected to deal with -- 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- to make happen whatever it was 22 you wanted to have happen. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. And Mr. Minton -- well, 24 yes. 25 THE COURT: That is your -- that is it, he felt 796 1 comfortable with him, you assume, and that is why he 2 was there? 3 THE WITNESS: I believe so, your Honor. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Do you know that Mr. Rinder is the head of OSA 6 International? 7 A I know he was, but -- I'm not sure if he is right 8 now or not, but I do know he has been. 9 Q Do you have any information to show he has been 10 replaced in that position? 11 A Mr. Lirot, I'm not really privy to Scientology's 12 job positions. 13 Q Now, as I understand it, you and Mr. Minton want 14 to set the record straight as far as testimony that you have 15 given in depositions. Correct? 16 A Mmm, yes. 17 Q All right. Where else could you have perjured 18 yourself? 19 A Mmm, well, I only hesitate because it was an issue 20 of deposition testimony as well as discovery. 21 Q And affidavits? 22 A No. 23 Q You hadn't signed any affidavits at that point in 24 time? 25 A Ever? 797 1 Q I don't know. I'm asking you if you remember. 2 This is April 7, 2002. 3 A Well, I have done a number of affidavits and 4 declarations in my capacity as -- as a consultant or expert. 5 But as far as -- 6 THE COURT: Let me help you out here, ma'am. I 7 have this on my pink sheet, which is my next sheet 8 to go over with you-all. 9 Number 23 on my list, I want a copy of all 10 affidavits provided by Stacy Brooks in this case 11 except the two recanting affidavits. 12 There are at least three. One, the 2/98 13 affidavit in opposition to a motion concerning 14 confidentiality of parishioners' counseling records. 15 2 and 3, File 1099 to support plaintiff's 16 motion to amend complaint. 17 And I have got "(must have been to file fifth 18 amended complaint.)" 19 THE WITNESS: What was the date on that one? 20 THE COURT: Again, I'm going through lots and 21 lots of stuff, so I could be all wet on this, but as 22 best I could tell, it looks like there were two 23 affidavits perhaps filed in support of the 24 plaintiff's motion to amend their complaint. And 25 somewhere I picked up two dates. Like Numbers 2 and 798 1 3 were filed in October of '99, and then I have, "To 2 support defendant's motion to amend complaint." And 3 I have "(must have been to file fifth amended 4 complaint since the fourth was filed before then.)" 5 MR. DANDAR: You are correct. 6 THE COURT: I'm doing the best I can to go 7 through a lot of this stuff and make sense of that. 8 MR. DANDAR: You are right. 9 THE COURT: Is that right? 10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 11 THE COURT: So I don't know if she filed more 12 than that, but those are the three I came up with. 13 MR. DANDAR: Those are from two prior cases, 14 not this case. 15 THE COURT: But they were filed here. 16 MR. DANDAR: But they were filed here. Yes. 17 THE COURT: Maybe she didn't realize they were 18 filed here. 19 MR. DANDAR: She signed an affidavit here to 20 say here are the other two. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So those affidavits, I don't 22 know if you-all have them, who has them, but I would 23 like to see them. 24 MR. DANDAR: Are they here? 25 THE COURT: You don't need to pull them out 799 1 right here, either side. I mean, I really 2 appreciate it but, I mean, I can take a break 3 occasionally and not have to read. 4 MR. FUGATE: We'll put it on this list. 5 THE COURT: Put it on this list. By the time 6 we're done, we might have more. At some point in 7 time, I think it might be important for me to read 8 the affidavits. And I think Ms. Brooks might need 9 to look at them and determine if they are true or 10 not if they are filed in this case. 11 I don't know what they said, so -- I haven't 12 heard her recant whatever is in there, so I'm 13 assuming they are true. But I don't know because I 14 have not seen them. And I would have but when I 15 started looking for them, I couldn't find them. 16 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 17 THE COURT: Frankly, maybe there are things she 18 was recanting, but I think most of the things she 19 was recanting were things, if I couldn't find them, 20 I asked you-all about them. 21 I remember there was something on Mr. Minton's 22 about some -- about something I had never heard of 23 before. And you all produced a copy to me. 24 I don't recall I had that problem with 25 Ms. Brooks. I knew what she was talking about. 800 1 MR. LIROT: Yes. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Ms. Brooks, you said that you and Mr. Minton were 4 comfortable with Mr. Rinder. Weren't there attorneys at the 5 other meetings before the 7th? 6 A Mmm, the meetings on the 28th and 29th? 7 Q Yes. 8 A Is that what you mean? 9 Q Yes. 10 A Yes. 11 Q Were there any meetings between -- do we go from 12 the 29th, all of the way up to the 6th, which was the 13 Saturday meeting? Were there any meetings between the 29th 14 and 6th? 15 A Well, there were a number of meetings. But, with 16 anybody? I mean, with who? What meetings are you asking me 17 about? 18 Q Any meeting related in any way to a resolution of 19 this case or any other case involving Mr. Minton, you, 20 anything you have done in the Church of Scientology? 21 A No. 22 Q So we go from the 28th, the 29th, up to the 6th, 23 which is a Saturday. 24 What happened between the 29th and the 6th, I 25 guess I'll ask? 801 1 A I think we covered this pretty extensively 2 earlier, but I'll tell you again. 3 We were engaged in intensive preparation for the 4 order to show cause hearing before Judge Schaeffer that was 5 scheduled for, I guess it was, Friday, April 5th. 6 Q Okay. 7 A And also preparing for the order to show cause 8 hearing before Judge Baird which was scheduled for the 9th. 9 Q All right. So from -- 10 A And -- 11 Q I'm sorry. Finish. 12 A And as I recall, there were a number of telephone 13 conferences concerning those preparations, and quite a bit 14 of other kinds of preparation for them. 15 Q Okay. So from the 29th to the 6th, you were 16 engaging in extensive preparation. 17 Where were you on the 30th, let's say, of March? 18 A Mmm, I -- I may have been in New Hampshire. At 19 some point, we came down to Florida, I believe. I don't 20 remember when during that time. 21 Q All right. All these phone calls and all of the 22 preparation, you were clearly here on the 5th because you 23 were in front of Judge Schaeffer, correct? That was that 24 Friday? 25 A Yes. 802 1 Q Were you here on the 4th? 2 A Mmm -- 3 THE COURT: Sometimes if you don't remember, 4 you are allowed to say that. 5 A I don't remember. 6 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: There you go. I couldn't tell you 8 where I was, either, frankly, on the 4th. If I'm in 9 Court -- I remember the 5th I had a hearing, but -- 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q Between the 29th and the 4th, in all this 12 preparation, who did you speak to, to prepare for these 13 hearings that you testified were coming up, Judge 14 Schaeffer's and Judge Baird's? 15 A Well, primarily it was Mr. Minton speaking. But 16 it was to Mr. Howie, Mr. Jonas, primarily. 17 Q Primarily. Who else? 18 A Me. 19 THE COURT: Are you speaking about who 20 Mr. Minton was talking to now? Is that what your 21 question was? 22 MR. LIROT: She apparently was privy to these 23 conversations 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. LIROT: I'm most concerned -- 803 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Were you privy to everything Mr. Minton did to get 3 prepared for these upcoming hearings? 4 A I don't know. 5 Q Were you privy to some of the things Mr. Minton 6 did to prepare for the upcoming hearings? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Can you tell us about that? 9 A As I was saying, he spoke to Mr. Howie and 10 Mr. Jonas. 11 Q All right. Primarily. That means that -- that 12 certainly suggests there were other people he spoke to. And 13 you said you. Were there any other people? 14 A No. 15 Q Did he speak to -- 16 A Not that I recall. 17 Q All right. So nobody associated with the Church 18 talked to him, to your knowledge, between the 29th and the 19 4th? 20 THE COURT: Who is this person that keeps 21 coming in? I can't really see him over there. 22 MR. MOXON: He works for us over there. 23 THE COURT: Hello. 24 A I don't remember what your question was, sir. 25 804 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q I'm trying to find out what conversations you had 3 to prepare for the contempt hearing on the 5th and the 4 hearing in front of Judge Baird. So far I have the 29th. 5 You testified about the 29th. I'm trying to fill in the gap 6 between the 29th and then Mr. Minton testifying here, I 7 believe, or at least appearing -- 8 MR. LIROT: I wasn't here that day, Judge. 9 THE COURT: He didn't have to testify because I 10 found him not guilty, in effect, at the end of the 11 Church's case, if you want to call it that, the end 12 of their presentation. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q And I think your testimony was it was a miracle 16 and you were very happy about Judge Schaeffer not finding 17 Mr. Minton in contempt. 18 A I was very happy about that. 19 Q All right. So prior to that, what preparation was 20 made -- and if you have already answered this I won't ask it 21 again -- but I'm trying to find out what exactly happened 22 between the 29th and 4th of April? 23 A Well, I have already answered it so you don't need 24 to ask me again. 25 Q There are no other phone calls, no other meetings, 805 1 nothing -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a second. We can't have that. 3 The deal is unless your lawyer objects and it is 4 sustained, he can ask you again. 5 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, I'm just 6 responding he said, if you have already answered, 7 don't answer it again. So I'm telling him I have 8 answered it so he doesn't need to ask it again. 9 THE COURT: Oh, all right. 10 MR. LIROT: I have been put in my place, Judge. 11 THE WITNESS: I didn't mean to be rude. 12 THE COURT: I didn't hear that part of his 13 question. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q We are now up to the 6th. You talked about your 16 meetings on the 6th. 17 Now we're talking about on the 7th. How many 18 trips were made on April 7 to bring documents for Mr. Minton 19 to look at? 20 A I really don't remember. Perhaps several. I'm 21 not really sure. 22 Q More than two? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q All right. How long was the meeting on April 7 25 where -- and correct me if I'm wrong, as I understand it, 806 1 you are not looking at any documents. This is all a day 2 that is focused solely on Mr. Minton. This is April 7th? 3 A Well, this is the best of my recollection. The 4 attention was primarily on Mr. Minton because of the 5 upcoming hearing. I wasn't having a hearing, so I was 6 pretty much bowing to Mr. Minton's concerns about the 7 hearing coming up. 8 What I was privy to was I -- Mmm, basically what I 9 have told you. I don't really remember any more detail than 10 that. He was going over some documents. He was getting 11 ready. He was talking about the things that he had 12 testified about that were untrue. I wasn't there for all of 13 it, so that is pretty much what I can tell you. 14 Q You weren't there for the entire meeting on the 15 7th? 16 A Well, I mean, I was going in and out. And like I 17 said, it wasn't -- the focus wasn't really on me, so -- 18 Q Okay. 19 THE COURT: Was Mr. Minton's lawyer there? 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I am pretty sure 21 Mr. Jonas didn't get there until the next morning. 22 I don't recall if Mr. Howie was there. I think 23 he might have been. I know Mr. Minton spoke to him 24 by phone. 25 THE COURT: I obviously didn't make myself very 807 1 clear, either. I don't understand it. This was a 2 hearing in front of Judge Baird. So I was using my 3 lawyers because I know how good they are here. I 4 have to assume the Church's lawyers are equally good 5 there. 6 So we have Mr. Pope, whom I personally know, 7 who is a fine lawyer. 8 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Pope. Mr. Rosen -- 9 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen, who is not a member of 10 the Florida Bar, and who I don't know. 11 MR. FUGATE: Right. 12 THE COURT: Except I know he does try to 13 introduce depositions for people who aren't even 14 there, little snippets of testimony -- 15 MR. FUGATE: I heard that. 16 THE COURT: -- and that, I know, is improper. 17 However, those two folks are the people that 18 are -- are presuming some lawyers will prepare him 19 for whatever he will -- for whatever will happen. 20 What does Mr. Rinder know about what is to be 21 done in front of Judge Baird? 22 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this was -- my 23 understanding was that this was more -- this was 24 more something that Mr. Minton was initiating doing, 25 you know. I'm sure Mr. Rinder was glad that he was 808 1 doing it. But it wasn't something that was being 2 organized by Church attorneys. 3 And Mr. Rosen never met with Mr. Minton in 4 preparation for this, that I know of. 5 THE COURT: Mr. Rosen was in New York? 6 THE WITNESS: No. I'm talking about on this 7 April 7th. 8 THE COURT: Oh. 9 THE WITNESS: Because he was the attorney that 10 was -- that was at the hearing. 11 THE COURT: But he was present in New York? 12 THE WITNESS: He was present in New York, yes, 13 your Honor. 14 THE COURT: We'll hear from him, I guess, about 15 that. 16 MR. LIROT: Yes. 17 THE COURT: If he was there, he will have to 18 come in and testify, which is, I assume, one of the 19 reasons why the lawyers weren't there, which I can't 20 seem to get that from this witness. I don't know if 21 that is true or not. Maybe you just don't know. 22 THE WITNESS: I don't really know. 23 THE COURT: Okay. There you go. Just move on. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q All right. So you were in and out. How long did 809 1 the meeting last with Mr. Minton? 2 A I really don't remember. Mr. Minton? Probably 3 several hours, but -- 4 Q All right. What possibly could Mr. Minton have 5 had to do except look at his old depositions? What else 6 would he be worried about? 7 A I don't know. I mean, some of these questions 8 would be better asked of him. You are asking me for what 9 was going on in his head, and I can't really tell you that. 10 THE COURT: Counselor, I agree with that. 11 Let's let Mr. Minton answer what -- 12 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 13 THE COURT: -- why Mr. Minton -- let's let him 14 respond to that. 15 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. All right. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q But just for the record, you are instrumental in 18 trying to help Mr. Minton reach this global settlement. 19 Right? 20 A Mmm, well, I would say that I was encouraging him 21 to do so. 22 Q Because I think your earlier testimony is the guy 23 is going crazy from all of this stuff, and that was one 24 of -- your primary inspiration. Right? 25 THE COURT: Well, now, I see Mr. Fugate getting 810 1 ready to jump up here. That isn't exactly what she 2 said here, I don't think. 3 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I mischaracterized the 4 evidence, I apologize. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q He was extremely distraught, all these actions are 7 having a heavy bearing on him, correct? 8 A Mmm, I think my testimony was that he was 9 extremely concerned about, Mmm, the perjury he already 10 committed on Mr. Dandar's behalf, and that he was very 11 concerned about having to face Judge Schaeffer and Judge 12 Baird in contempt hearings, and extremely concerned about 13 what the outcome of those hearings were going to be. So -- 14 THE COURT: She also said he was distraught. 15 But I know what she said and I heard it. And you'll 16 have it written on a piece of paper to refer to. So 17 she doesn't need to repeat herself so many times. 18 MR. LIROT: I will move on, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I don't mean to minimize what you 20 need to do and what they need to do. But I don't 21 need to hear it any more than I needed to read those 22 depositions four, five -- the same thing four, five 23 times. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q So on April 7, this is a Sunday, Mr. Minton's 811 1 deposition was to take place the next day, is that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And his attorneys aren't there on the 7th to help 4 him get ready for deposition testimony. Is that correct? 5 A Mmm, as I said, I don't recall if he got together 6 with Mr. Howie that day or not. He may have. I just don't 7 recall. 8 Q All right. 9 A I know he was speaking to Mr. Howie that day, for 10 sure. 11 Q All right. After this meeting in Mr. Pope's 12 library was over, what did you do next? 13 A I think we had dinner. 14 Q All right. Who went to dinner with you? 15 A Mr. Minton. 16 Q All right. Anybody else? Did you invite anybody 17 else to dinner? 18 A I don't believe so. 19 Q Did you call Jesse Prince that day? 20 A Mmm, I don't remember. 21 Q All right. Did you -- did you personally call 22 Jesse Prince that day? 23 THE COURT: She just said she didn't know. 24 MR. LIROT: Fair enough, Judge. 25 THE COURT: That could mean she did or she 812 1 didn't. And if Mr. Prince is going to testify, then 2 I guess if he will remember, he can tell us, and 3 that will be the answer. So she doesn't know. So 4 get the answer, move on. 5 MR. LIROT: Very good. 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q The next day was Mr. Minton's deposition. Do you 8 remember that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Did you take him to his deposition? 11 A I think he took me. 12 Q Okay. But you were in attendance. Is that 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Where did that deposition take place? 16 A In -- 17 THE COURT: This is on the 8th? 18 MR. LIROT: This is on the 8th now, Judge. 19 THE COURT: I have to ask you-all a question 20 about that. I got from Mr. Minton's deposition -- I 21 kind of expected to see a lot of the stuff we were 22 hearing about here in that deposition. I didn't. 23 It's a fairly short deposition. 24 Is that accurate? Do -- I guess I have it all. 25 Just all this stuff wasn't gone into at that 813 1 deposition. Is that true? 2 MR. FUGATE: I believe that is so, Judge. I'm 3 not sure what you have, but I'll look at that over 4 the lunch hour, too. 5 I think it was an abbreviated deposition 6 because there was a question asked and they 7 terminated it and went to the hearing the next day, 8 if I am reading the same one. 9 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to tell you that 10 what I have been given -- 11 MR. FUGATE: May I approach, your Honor? 12 THE COURT: Yes. But I'll just tell you, so 13 you can look and tell me if it's wrong. I have got 14 a deposition of Mr. Minton that is only 120 pages. 15 That is -- when I say only 120 pages, that is 16 probably the longest deposition I ever took in my 17 life. However, in this particular case, that is 18 extraordinarily short. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Is that on the 8th? 20 THE COURT: It is on the 8th. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Is that in the breach case? 22 THE COURT: Yes. And this time I get six pages 23 to a page. But it's -- and I show a court 24 reporter's signature at the end. So as I said, I 25 read that one, thinking, okay, this will be the time 814 1 when I'll see what this is all about. And, frankly, 2 there wasn't a whole lot in there that I recall 3 about the agreement, this and that. 4 MR. DANDAR: Nothing about the agreement. 5 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, I was at that deposition. 6 And that is what -- very little happened at that 7 deposition. There were a lot of breaks. 8 THE COURT: And a very small deposition. 9 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, then I won't look because 11 I'm assuming -- 12 THE COURT: You don't have to look. I mean, 13 when I say small, let me just say the one before 14 that, I see 648 pages. So you can understand when I 15 say I think Mr. Minton is owed an apology, that is 16 one deposition, and I have got a book this thick. A 17 couple inches. And there are four and six pages to 18 a page, front and back. 19 That shouldn't have happened. I'm sorry it 20 happened. I don't think he's owed an apology for 21 having committed perjury in any way, shape or form, 22 but I think the judges of this circuit should not 23 allow the courts to be used to haul somebody in in 24 in a case, give those type of depositions, in two 25 cases, over and over. And it won't happen any more, 815 1 that I'm aware of. So -- so when I said it was 2 small, you do understand -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Relatively speaking. 4 THE COURT: -- relatively speaking, it was a 5 short deposition. 6 MR. FUGATE: I have got it, Judge. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q So April 8, Mr. Minton is giving his deposition 9 testimony. And do you know why the deposition was cut off? 10 A Mmm, as I recall, it ended close to five o'clock. 11 I believe that was the day Mr. Rosen complained about having 12 very bad allergies and not knowing how long he was going to 13 go on. I think that was the day that happened. 14 Q Now, did any of the documents that you prepared or 15 that were brought to Mr. Pope's office on the 7th -- did any 16 of those come out during Mr. Minton's deposition on the 8th? 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, counselor, what was your 18 question again? 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Did any of the documents that were prepared and 21 gone over on April 7th -- were those presented or made a 22 part of the deposition on the 8th? 23 A Well, I'm not aware of any documents having been 24 prepared that day. I don't think I said they were. And I 25 don't believe that any of Mr. Minton's prior testimony was 816 1 brought up that day, not that I recall. 2 Q Maybe I neglected to ask, what was brought over on 3 the 7th? Somebody made many trips bringing documents? 4 THE COURT: She didn't say many trips, 5 counselor. Now, I can't have that here. This is 6 the kinds of stuff I saw happen in the other. We 7 can't have that. 8 MR. LIROT: I believe her testimony was several 9 trips. 10 THE COURT: I think she said two. Maybe she 11 said -- I didn't write it down because, to me, it 12 didn't matter. 13 MR. LIROT: I said two. She said several. 14 THE COURT: Well, several isn't many. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q All right, during the several trips, do you know 17 what was brought over to Mr. Minton to go over? 18 A I don't know. 19 Q Did you go over any of the documents with him? 20 A Not that I recall. 21 Q Well, what were you doing during the meeting? 22 A I was sitting there. 23 Q Just not participating at all? 24 A I don't recall that I was participating very much. 25 I was with Mr. Minton. He wanted me there. And I was 817 1 there. 2 Q And you weren't looking over his shoulder to see 3 what they were bringing him to say, "Hey, that is going to 4 help us out"? 5 A No. 6 Q Not at all? Okay. 7 Do you -- 8 THE COURT: By the way, for whatever it's 9 worth, the deposition on the 8th was from 11 a.m. to 10 4:50, according to the front page. So I'm going to 11 assume that is accurate. That is the court 12 reporter's front page. 13 THE WITNESS: I think it is, your Honor. I do 14 remember it ended at 10 of 5. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Do you know how thick a pile of documents were 17 brought over on the 7th? 18 A I don't. 19 Q To Mr. Pope's office? 20 A I don't. 21 Q And on the 8th, none of these documents found 22 their way into Mr. Minton's deposition. Is that your 23 testimony? 24 A I think my testimony was I don't really recall. 25 But I don't think so. 818 1 Q Okay. 2 THE COURT: There were a bunch of documents. 3 However, the documents appear to be bank statements, 4 invoices and check numbers. So as I said, 5 whatever -- I guess we're picking up from some other 6 deposition because I see Plaintiff's Exhibit Numbers 7 125 through 158. 8 THE WITNESS: I think that is correct, your 9 Honor, because it was a continuation. 10 THE COURT: Checks. Then a Bank of America 11 bank statement, invoice -- invoices, bank statement, 12 bank statement, invoices. That is what was 13 introduced at that. 14 THE WITNESS: Right. 15 THE COURT: So we all know what was introduced. 16 THE WITNESS: Right. I think it was related to 17 LMT. And I believe it was a continuation of a 18 deposition. And it was my impression that Mr. Rosen 19 was simply picking up where he left off in that 20 deposition. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Okay. Do you recall if any of these bank 23 documents or the list the judge just described -- were any 24 of those documents brought over to Mr. Pope's office on the 25 7th? 819 1 A I don't believe so. 2 Q Do you remember any mention of those documents 3 being either in possession of Mr. Rosen or any member of the 4 Church? 5 A I don't remember that it was or wasn't. 6 Q Now, on the 8th, after the deposition, was there 7 any preparation with Mr. Minton for testimony on the 9th in 8 front of Judge Baird? 9 MR. FUGATE: That was asked and answered on 10 Tuesday. But -- 11 THE COURT: Well, I'm sorry, I don't remember, 12 myself. I think you are right, but -- 13 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm trying to stay out of 14 this. 15 THE COURT: I know. And I appreciate it. 16 MR. LIROT: I'm trying to move along, Judge, 17 I'm not trying to rehash or replow old ground. 18 THE WITNESS: But you are replowing almost all 19 old ground, Mr. Lirot. 20 THE COURT: Yes, I believe that was asked and 21 answered that he prepared for his hearing in front 22 of Judge Baird. 23 MR. LIROT: All right. 24 THE COURT: If you asked who was present or 25 not -- you probably did, and it is probably in the 820 1 record. I didn't write it down. 2 MR. LIROT: That was my next question. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Who was there when Mr. Minton was being assisted 5 in preparation for his testimony in front of Judge Baird 6 which was going to be given on April 9, 2002? 7 A Mmm, as I testified earlier, I believe, Mr. Jonas 8 was there by then. And I believe we had dinner with him. I 9 believe Mr. Minton also spoke to Mr. Howie about it after 10 the deposition. 11 I don't recall anything else happened. 12 Q Okay. Did he speak with Mr. Rinder that day on 13 the 8th? 14 A Mmm, I don't know. 15 Q All right. Did he have, at that time, documents 16 which had been presented to him, any highlighted documents 17 to show him what would be helpful in his testimony the next 18 day? 19 A Not that I recall. 20 Q Did he take anything home with him on the 7th from 21 the library meeting in Mr. Pope's office? 22 A Not that I recall. But, again, it would be better 23 to ask Mr. Minton these questions. You are asking me about 24 what he did, what he thought -- 25 THE COURT: I think that is fair. You know, 821 1 you may have observed he had a stack of papers with 2 him or he didn't. If you don't remember, you don't 3 remember. 4 THE WITNESS: I understand, your Honor. I'm 5 just suggesting -- 6 BY MR. LIROT: 7 Q All right, so on the 9th he appears in front of 8 Judge Baird -- 9 THE COURT: So you don't know the answer, you 10 don't remember whether he had any papers or -- 11 THE WITNESS: I don't believe he did. 12 THE COURT: All right. I mean, that is an 13 answer. 14 MR. LIROT: Okay. 15 THE COURT: Not whether it is good or bad, that 16 is your answer. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, Mr. Fugate was kind enough to show us a 19 letter. We have a letter dated the 15th, which is the date 20 you said you received your documents? 21 A Well, what I said was the best way for me to date 22 that meeting was by the date of that letter, because I think 23 that letter was issued that day or maybe the day before. 24 But -- 25 Q Okay. And after the 9th, I think did Mr. Minton 822 1 receive any documents, to your knowledge, before you 2 received yours? 3 A Mmm, not that I recall. 4 Q Were they provided together? Was there a large 5 pile of documents provided to both you and Mr. Minton 6 together? 7 A No. 8 Q All right. Do you know -- do you know if Mr. 9 Minton received a stack of documents from any attorneys for 10 the Church or anybody associated with the Church? 11 A Mmm, on the -- what day are you asking me about? 12 Q I guess post -- I think your testimony was before 13 the 9th you don't recall Mr. Minton having been provided any 14 stack of documents or any documents? 15 THE COURT: Well now, no, she didn't say that. 16 A I don't think that is what I said. 17 THE COURT: He asked for documents in that very 18 meeting with Mr. Rinder. And Mr. Rinder called 19 somebody, she doesn't know who, and they brought 20 over documents. He didn't take them home with him. 21 So you are going to have to be real careful here 22 about what exactly it is you are asking her because 23 I don't want her to be confused. 24 This is what happens, you see, when there is 25 confusion on her part because of the questions 823 1 asked. I'm sure lawyers don't mean to confuse 2 witnesses. 3 MR. LIROT: I'm not trying to confuse anybody. 4 If it is anything, I must be confused. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q But my question is you were given a stack of 7 documents at some point to help you set the record straight. 8 Correct? 9 A Mmm, I think what I testified was that my attorney 10 and I were given several excerpts of depositions of mine by 11 Mr. Fugate. And my attorney and I went through each one and 12 determined whether anything in that deposition required 13 being included in my recantation or not. 14 Q Okay. And what about Mr. Minton? Did he receive, 15 likewise, documents, not at the meeting on the 7th, but at 16 some point was he delivered a stack of documents at his 17 request, or at anyone's behest, to go through so he could 18 set the record straight? 19 A Mmm, as I think I also already testified, at the 20 same meeting where Mr. McGowan and I were given documents by 21 Mr. Fugate, Mr. Minton was also given some documents. And 22 he later went over those with his attorney, Mr. Howie. 23 Q Okay. How thick was the pile of documents that 24 you were given? 25 A Let me see. 824 1 Q You are -- 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q It looks like you are describing two and a half 4 inches, maybe three inches? 5 A Perhaps. It wasn't a very large stack. 6 Q All right. Did you see the stack of documents 7 that was presented to Mr. Minton? 8 A I saw it when he was going over it with Mr. Howie. 9 Q How thick was the stack of documents given Mr. 10 Minton, do you recall? 11 A Mmm, I don't recall whether it was -- was it more 12 than that? I mean -- 13 THE COURT: This is -- without the notebook, is 14 that -- 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, probably a little 16 less than the big fat one. 17 THE COURT: Okay. This is the one that has 18 been described by counsel for the plaintiff as a 19 4-inch -- I remember they said they had four inches 20 of documents. 21 THE WITNESS: But there is something I need to 22 clarify about these stacks. As I recall -- you know 23 how, when you have a sheet -- sheets of paper 24 stapled together, and you fold over something to 25 read something on a certain page? 825 1 THE COURT: Yes? 2 THE WITNESS: Then you have a few of those kind 3 where you folded over a few pages to read on a 4 certain page? Then you put them altogether? And 5 then it ends up being -- 6 THE COURT: Like this? So it makes it look 7 thicker? 8 THE WITNESS: Yeah. It ends up -- when I 9 say -- mine, for example, was probably about that 10 thick, it wasn't solid thick. It was those folded 11 over, some of the things were those folded over 12 kind, as I recall. 13 THE COURT: Most of the time when somebody 14 gives me something, they give it to me stapled 15 together, and I do my own folding. Were these 16 things folded to certain pages? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, some of them were folded to 18 a page where there was something highlighted. 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 20 THE WITNESS: That is the reason. 21 BY MR. LIROT: 22 Q Do you know who highlighted the copies? 23 THE COURT: In any event, for what it is worth, 24 she said about half -- this was identified as four 25 inches. I don't know how big that is, but that is 826 1 what they said. So I would presume half of that 2 would be about two inches. 3 MR. LIROT: I'll go with that, Judge. 4 THE WITNESS: Something like that. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q All right. So we have numerous documents, by 7 anybody's analysis. And -- 8 A Well -- 9 Q -- where were they delivered? Were they delivered 10 to Mr. McGowan's office? 11 A They were delivered to Mr. McGowan's hands. 12 Q Okay. Where? 13 A We really have said this several times. That is 14 for sure. But I'll tell you again. 15 Mr. McGowan and I met with Mr. Fugate in a 16 conference room in Mr. Pope's office. And Mr. Fugate handed 17 over a stack of documents to Mr. McGowan. 18 Q And that was on April 15th? 19 A Well, as I said earlier, if the letter from 20 Mr. Fugate is dated April 15th, then that would probably be 21 the date of that transaction. 22 Q All right. Now, you received these documents. 23 They were already highlighted. Is that your testimony? 24 A That has been my testimony several times, 25 actually. 827 1 THE COURT: Yes, it has been. That I remember. 2 That I thought was important. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Who highlighted them? 5 A And, again, I have already told you, I don't know. 6 Q All right. 7 A But -- 8 THE COURT: She thought it might have been 9 Ms. Yingling, as I recall. 10 THE WITNESS: No, I don't think I said that. I 11 don't think Ms. Yingling would have done it. But 12 basically my attorney and I went over each one, 13 including what was highlighted and what wasn't. 14 Someone apparently thought that those things that 15 were highlighted were things that I might need to 16 include in my recantation. Some of them were 17 correct because we had spoken about them. Some of 18 them weren't. 19 I didn't go by the highlights. I went by my 20 own memory. My attorney and I went over these 21 things together. And that was what happened. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q If you want to set the record straight, why are 24 you asking for documents from someone else? Why don't you 25 get the documents in their entirety and go through them 828 1 yourself? 2 THE COURT: I think you asked that, too. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: And I think I told you last time 5 you asked it, some of this stuff you really need to 6 save for argument. 7 MR. LIROT: All right. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Now, between the 9th and the 15th, did you have 10 any meetings with either members of the Church or the 11 Church's counsel before the documents were presented to you 12 and after the day that Mr. Minton testified in front of 13 Judge Baird? 14 That was April 9th? 15 A I believe so. 16 Q So Mr. Minton testifies on April 9th? 17 A I believe so. 18 Q Okay. Can you tell me what dates those were, if 19 you can remember? 20 A Mmm, I really can't remember dates. But I do 21 recall that we met with at least Mr. Rinder maybe two or 22 three times. Perhaps Ms. Yingling was there, as well. 23 I -- I -- I can tell you that there were several 24 meetings which I attended at which Mr. Minton and Mr. Rinder 25 and Ms. Yingling and I met. I can't tell you dates, but -- 829 1 but there were several meetings at which those people were 2 present. 3 Q Okay. 4 THE COURT: I apologize. My note was she went 5 over some documents -- a document she had typed, I 6 believe it was her affidavit. She went over it with 7 Ms. Yingling. That was -- my apologies. 8 THE WITNESS: That was later, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: Right. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q So after the 9th, this is the day after Judge 12 Baird's hearing, do you remember if there was a meeting on 13 that day? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, just to make sure we're 16 on the same date, the hearing was the 9th. Are you 17 meaning the 10th? Or the 9th? 18 MR. LIROT: The 10th. 19 THE WITNESS: Are we going over each day? 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q If I can help refresh your memory. 22 A I don't think that will help refresh my memory. I 23 think I already told you, to the best of my memory, we had 24 several meetings. 25 Q Then I'll just go meeting by meeting. 830 1 The first meeting after the hearing of Judge Baird 2 on April 9, who was in attendance at the first meeting? 3 A The first meeting between me and Mr. Minton and 4 Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder, those four people were in 5 attendance. 6 Q Okay. How long did that meeting last? 7 A Mr. Lirot, I don't really remember. There were a 8 series of meetings. 9 Q I'm only -- 10 A Let me finish. There were a series of meetings. 11 In my mind, you know, I don't think I'm going to be able to 12 tell you how long each meeting lasted. 13 For me, it was a series of meetings which were 14 very helpful to me and culminated in my being able to write 15 the affidavit that I wrote. 16 Q Okay. The first meeting, you don't remember how 17 long it was, and it was just you, Mr. Minton, Mr. Rinder and 18 Ms. Yingling? 19 A What I'm saying is there were a series of meetings 20 between me, Mr. Minton, Ms. Yingling and Mr. Rinder. Okay? 21 So there were a series of meetings where those four people 22 were the people that were there. 23 Q All right. And I am just asking you about those 24 meetings. 25 The first meeting, you don't remember when it was, 831 1 you don't remember how long it was. 2 What was discussed at the first meeting? 3 A Well, I can tell you what was discussed during the 4 series of meetings that we had. I'm not going to be able to 5 break it down meeting by meeting. I'm not going to be able 6 to do that for you because I don't remember it that 7 specifically. 8 But I can tell you generally that what was 9 discussed at the meetings was the specific points that 10 either Mr. Minton or I had been trying to cover up in -- 11 well, at Mr. Dandar's urging. 12 Q Okay. Who brought up these points during these 13 meetings? 14 A Well, Mr. Minton did originally. And -- and I 15 did. 16 Q All right. So basically, you had some 17 recollection of all of the things that you had said that 18 were incorrect earlier. Is that true? 19 A Oh, well, there were specific things that we were 20 acutely aware of having testified falsely about. 21 Q Okay. And some you weren't sure about so you 22 looked to the -- for the other folks you were at the meeting 23 with to sort of point out to you where you made a mistake? 24 A No. 25 Q Okay. What happened? 832 1 A There were other things. Mr. Rinder had gone over 2 a lot of our testimony, apparently. And he asked about 3 other things, you know, "Was this true?" You know, "It 4 always seems strange to me," or whatever. And we said 5 either -- "Yeah, that's what happened." 6 Q So what did Mr. Rinder ask about that seemed 7 strange to him that you said, "Yeah, that is true"? 8 A Mmm, I'm not being able to remember a specific, 9 right off the top of my head. 10 But there were things -- all I can tell you, I 11 remember there were things that he thought might have been 12 untrue, and we corrected him on those things. I -- I can't 13 remember right now a specific. 14 Q Were there a lot of those things? 15 A No. 16 Q Okay. Were you at every meeting between Mr. 17 Minton and Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling or Mr. Minton and any 18 other member of the Church or their counsel? 19 A I believe Mr. Minton may have had some meetings 20 that I did not attend. 21 Q Do you remember around that period of time having 22 a dinner with Jesse Prince? 23 A Yes. Well, that was -- that was the next week. I 24 do remember that. 25 Q Was that -- 833 1 A There were several dinners, actually. 2 Q Was that after the 15th? I'm using the 15th as 3 the date we understand to be when Mr. McGowan received the 4 documents that apparently I have gotten a copy of today. So 5 I'm using that as sort of a -- 6 A Oh, is that why you are asking me about this 7 11-inch stack that Jesse keeps talking about? 8 Q Well, I don't know anything about -- what was 9 given to you? 10 A Mmm -- 11 THE COURT: She already said -- 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is a different -- this 13 is a different meeting. 14 THE COURT: It's a different stack? 15 MR. LIROT: I don't know. Let me ask. 16 A Well, you have a lot of questions here. You were 17 asking about Jesse -- 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q I'll strike all of the other questions and I'll 20 start over. 21 Where I had left off from before, Mr. Rinder 22 apparently pointed out a lot of things you thought were 23 untrue, you straightened those out, but you don't remember 24 which ones? 25 THE COURT: She didn't say a lot of things. 834 1 You see, this is the problem is a lot of times 2 people don't listen, acutely listen. And they might 3 say yes, then somebody goes back and tries to 4 impeach somebody from that question. 5 That is not the correct statement about what 6 she had said. She didn't say a lot of things. She 7 said, I believe -- I didn't write it down, it wasn't 8 that important. 9 THE WITNESS: But it was definitely not -- I 10 didn't say that. 11 THE COURT: You said a few, or something. 12 MR. LIROT: Something. 13 THE WITNESS: You said -- 14 THE COURT: But I didn't hear some of the 15 things he pointed out that were untrue which might 16 be more important. 17 THE WITNESS: I don't think Mr. Lirot cares 18 about those, your Honor. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, I appreciate Ms. Brooks' 20 respect for me -- 21 THE COURT: Yeah, we don't need that. It might 22 be important to me. 23 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm getting there. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Was there a period of time with you or Jesse 835 1 Brooks (sic) where another packet of documents was delivered 2 to either you or Mr. Minton? 3 A Jesse Prince. I'm Stacy Brooks. 4 Q What did I say? Jesse Brooks? 5 A Jesse Brooks. 6 Q My mistake. I'll straighten that out. 7 A Okay. Say that again. 8 Q Was there a period -- 9 THE COURT: Maybe we need to eat. I think we 10 do. Everybody, all right? We can all be on the 11 same page for once. We're going to go eat. It is 12 10 to 1. We'll be back at 2 o'clock. 13 I remind you, ma'am, this is one of those 14 breaks you may speak to your lawyer but no one else. 15 MR. HOWIE: One point. Mr. Minton wishes to be 16 allowed to come and go during the hearing. Is there 17 a new time at which Mr. Minton must be present? 18 THE COURT: Oh, I don't know that we're going 19 to get finished today. I can't tell you. Speak to 20 counsel there. 21 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much. 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you mean that I can 23 -- I mean, I'll not talk to anybody else about my 24 testimony, but I can speak to people -- 25 THE COURT: Yes. You can speak to anybody but 836 1 not about your testimony. 2 MR. FUGATE: Judge, were you going to take up 3 what else was on your pink sheet, too, when we get 4 back? 5 THE COURT: Maybe sometime at the end of the 6 day. I don't want anybody to read it because these 7 are my notes. Some are these private notes. Some 8 are notes to you-all. 9 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 10 THE COURT: So am I clear on that? These notes 11 are mine, not to be seen by anybody but me. But, 12 yes, I'm going over those. 13 MR. FUGATE: I was only asking procedure-wise 14 because I'll try to go through the documents over 15 the break, because that may speed this up. 16 THE COURT: I'll sometime, before the end of 17 today, go through the rest of the things I wrote 18 down that have some significance to me. 19 MR. FUGATE: All right. 20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 21 22 23 24 25 837 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 13th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- This message has been sent via an anonymous mail relay at www.no-id.com.