======== To: tilman@berlin.snafu.de Subject: From: dev-null@no-id.com Date: 19 May 2002 04:30:36 -0000 -------- IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 13, 2002. Afternoon Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 839 Volume 7, 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT 6 LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B 7 Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 9 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 10 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 19 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 21 St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 840 Volume 7, 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 841 Volume 7, 1 (The afternoon session began at 2:05 p.m.) 2 THE COURT: I have a couple of things. 3 These documents are here pursuant -- 4 Mr. Moxon, this is the one that you talked 5 about on Friday. 6 This came to me Friday, and I just said, 7 "Well, I'll just give everybody a copy on Monday." I 8 don't remember. Apparently, it's something I must 9 have signed an order for because it's here, request 10 under the Hague Convention of the taking of evidence 11 abroad in civil or personal matters. 12 MR. MOXON: Yes, your Honor. I'll see if we 13 can find the order -- 14 THE COURT: Okay. Anyway, it says: 15 "Referring to your request dated" -- I'm going to 16 guess it's 11/16/01 -- "the Royal Marine Administer of 17 Justice and the Police have the honor to inform 18 you" -- I like this; these folks do nice work -- "the 19 honor to inform you that your request has been 20 complied with. Please find enclosed documents." 21 Then it's signed by some folks, and this is 22 all in some language other than English. I don't know 23 what it is. But is there any reason why I just can't 24 hand everybody a copy? 25 MR. DANDAR: Well, because of the Second KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 842 Volume 7, 1 DCA's opinion, I believe this has to do with financing 2 or money or things like that. 3 THE COURT: I have no idea. 4 MR. MOXON: This has nothing to do with 5 Mr. -- 6 THE COURT: Is this funds? 7 MR. MOXON: -- funds from Mr. Minton to 8 Mr. Dandar. This is the -- this is the money that was 9 testified to that went from Helda Lund, this Operation 10 Clambake, to LMT. 11 MR. DANDAR: That's right, that's right. 12 THE COURT: The $300,000? 13 MR. MOXON: That's right. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we need to see where that 16 came from. 17 THE COURT: There is one document -- there's 18 a whole bunch of stuff. It's all, as I said, in some 19 language -- I guess this would be Norwegian. 20 MR. MOXON: Yes, I think so. 21 THE COURT: But there's one thing that looks 22 like -- it's got numbers on it, and it looks like 23 there's something called 299815, and then there's some 24 other little numbers. So maybe that's it. 25 MR. MOXON: Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 843 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: But I don't know what to do with 2 it. I mean, was this supposed to be in the court 3 file -- 4 MR. MOXON: No. 5 THE COURT: -- or supposed to go to counsel 6 or what? 7 MR. MOXON: We made -- I've got the order 8 here. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: But I think you ought to 11 address it with Mr. Howie, Mr. Minton's counsel. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: Oh, there he is. Okay. 14 MR. MOXON: Normally, you, of course, would 15 go to another state, and the state would just go 16 through the discovery procedures in that state. And 17 that's what happened in Norway. 18 But we're informed by Norwegian counsel that 19 because the request was an order, essentially a 20 request from the Court, like a normal out-of-state 21 commission would be, they wanted to send the documents 22 back to the Court, to the requester. And so our 23 counsel provided the Norwegian court the documents. 24 They got them from Helda Lund, gave them back to the 25 Court, and we were informed the Court was going to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 844 Volume 7, 1 send them to you. 2 THE COURT: Okay. The only thing I would 3 ask -- this was in January -- apparently this is Judge 4 Beach's initials that says, I guess, a stay of 60 days 5 for execution or extension of this order is granted. 6 MR. MOXON: Yes, in case they wanted to file 7 a writ, but they didn't. 8 THE COURT: Did you file any writ? 9 MR. DANDAR: I had nothing to do with it. 10 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, do you know -- this 11 says UC counsel of record. I just got a whole bunch 12 of documents here that come -- that I can't read, and 13 I was just prepared to hand them out. 14 This copy is no good -- not that I can't 15 read them, but this copy isn't even -- it looks like 16 when Ms. Rudd made a copy that perhaps that one came 17 out bad. Maybe they're all that way. See what the 18 original looks like. 19 Do you want to look at this? 20 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 21 MR. MOXON: In fact, your Honor, here's the 22 other order. We had a hearing in front of Judge Beach 23 on this. 24 THE COURT: There's two documents in here. 25 MR. MOXON: The language of the order was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 845 Volume 7, 1 approved by both Mr. Dandar and -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. MOXON: -- whoever was representing LMT 4 at that time. 5 THE COURT: Oh, I see the problem with this 6 little -- this original is very light, and when 7 Mrs. Rudd copied it, it didn't turn out very well. 8 But you all can see even on the original, that's very 9 light. 10 MR. MOXON: Yes. But it's readable, I mean, 11 if you could read it. 12 THE COURT: That's the original. I don't 13 know that you can read this -- see? I guess that's 14 the best. 15 MR. MOXON: No, I can't read that. Maybe we 16 can make a new copy of this. 17 THE COURT: Well, you study that if you 18 will, Mr. Howie. 19 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Good luck. 21 MR. HOWIE: Well, I have -- 22 MR. FUGATE: "Howie" is Norwegian, isn't it? 23 THE COURT: I'll just keep them here until 24 he's had a chance to look at them, but it does look as 25 though there's been a court order. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 846 Volume 7, 1 MR. MOXON: I said that was your order, but 2 I see it's Judge Beach's order. 3 THE COURT: I like this. It says: "Circuit 4 Court of the Sixth Judicial Circuit presents its 5 compliments to the appropriate judicial probate of 6 Norway." No wonder they wrote back and said they had 7 the honor to inform me. 8 MR. MOXON: We copied those from the Hague 9 Convention. 10 THE COURT: Kind of nice. It's very -- 11 MR. DANDAR: All orders should start out 12 that way. 13 THE COURT: You can have a seat, Mr. Howie. 14 MR. HOWIE: Thank you very much, ma'am. 15 THE COURT: You may take your time. 16 MR. DANDAR: For the record, the plaintiff 17 does request a copy of that document. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And defendant obviously 19 wants a copy of it. And I'm not sure why Mr. Howie's 20 reading it. I just had a copy for everybody, but -- 21 MR. DANDAR: Oh. 22 (Ms. Brooks entered the courtroom.) 23 THE COURT: I'm looking at the documents 24 requested. I can understand why funds transferred 25 from Operation Clambake to the LMT would be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 847 Volume 7, 1 appropriate to this case, but it says then "or Robert 2 Minton." What would that have to do with this case? 3 MR. MOXON: Well, it has a lot to do with 4 the case. 5 THE COURT: Okay. What? 6 MR. MOXON: I can't read the documents in 7 Norwegian. I don't know. 8 THE COURT: No, I'm saying why would Judge 9 Beach sign an order allowing this Norwegian place to 10 send money that this man, whoever he is, sent to 11 Mr. Minton? I mean, I understand it went to LMT. 12 MR. MOXON: It's a question as to where 13 these funds are actually from, whether they're from 14 Mr. Minton, rather, or to LMT or to Mr. Minton. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, as I said, 16 Mr. Howie, you tell me if you have a problem with 17 this. I've got copies for everybody that I've made. 18 I've got the original. 19 MR. MOXON: I'd like to get the original if 20 I could, your Honor. I could make better copies. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. MOXON: Then I could make sure everybody 23 gets -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, you saw what I was 25 saying -- it was a very light copy, and it didn't come KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 848 Volume 7, 1 out very well. 2 MR. MOXON: Okay. 3 THE COURT: So I have those here, if someone 4 will remind me I have them. Mr. Howie can read it. 5 Ms. Brooks -- 6 Is it "Brooks" or "Brook"? 7 MS. BROOKS: Brooks. 8 THE COURT: -- Brooks is back with us, so 9 let's go on ahead. 10 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. 11 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS (RESUMED) 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, during the break, Mr. Fugate was nice 14 enough to break out the documents we've got into two 15 separate sections, I guess the documents that were provided 16 to Minton and the documents that were provided to you. And 17 what I'll do is I've got about -- it looks like to me like 18 almost three-quarters of an inch. Does this look to be 19 generally the size of the document packet that was provided 20 to you on the 15th? 21 A Well, if there were some that were folded over, 22 it might be. 23 Q Fair enough. All right. I'm going to go ahead 24 and just hand you -- since I just have the one copy, I'm 25 just going to clip them as we go through them. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 849 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I could ask for 2 continuing permission to approach the witness? 3 THE COURT: You may, as long as you've got 4 something in your hand. I always tell the lawyers, if 5 you don't have something in your hand, the lawyers -- 6 the witness wonders why you're coming. 7 MR. LIROT: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Having been a witness a few 9 times myself, it's disconcerting if you don't have a 10 document. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Ms. Brooks, I've got the first segment of the 13 packet given to me by Mr. Fugate. It appears to be an 14 excerpt of your deposition of April 15th, 2001. Does that 15 look to be one of the documents that you were provided on 16 April 15th by Mr. Fugate? 17 A Possibly. It refers to the secret agreement, so 18 I would say so. 19 Q All right. Well, what does it -- I mean, there 20 is a portion highlighted there, is there not? 21 A Yes. 22 Q All right. What does that question highlighted 23 actually ask? 24 A It refers to the secret agreement, if I knew 25 about it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 850 Volume 7, 1 Q Well, why don't you read me the question. 2 A "Do you have any knowledge" -- well, you want me 3 to edit out all the stumbling? "Do you have any knowledge 4 or do you know what the agreement is between Mr. Dandar and 5 Ms. Liebreich?" 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, and who? Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Okay. That doesn't have anything to do with any 10 secret agreement, does it, between LMT and Mr. Minton or 11 the Trust or anything. That's Mr. Dandar and 12 Ms. Liebreich, correct? 13 A Yes, and I didn't include this in my -- 14 Q Okay. 15 A -- affidavit. 16 MR. LIROT: The second one, Judge, actually 17 we took time to make a copy of this one. I'll give a 18 copy to counsel. 19 And, Judge, I'll hand this to the witness. 20 This is a September 7th, 2001, letter, from apparently 21 Teresa Summers to Ms. Brooks, which looked to be the 22 second component of the packet that Mr. Fugate 23 represents was handed over to Ms. Brooks on 24 April 15th. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 851 Volume 7, 1 Q Ms. Brooks, what is this letter from Ms. Summers 2 to you on September 7th, 2001? 3 A It's a letter that I found on my desk on the 4 morning of September 10th, which was a Monday morning, 5 which was also accompanied by another letter in which 6 Ms. Summers quit. And this letter is a very lengthy letter 7 in which she accuses me and Mr. Minton of a number of 8 various criminal acts, things like that. 9 Q Okay. There are a couple paragraphs -- this 10 looks to have been an exhibit to somebody's deposition, 11 although it was cut off. It says, on the bottom of the 12 first page, Defendants' Exhibit Summers. Do you know that 13 this was ever made an exhibit of a deposition or anything? 14 A Well -- 15 THE COURT: Maybe somebody here could help 16 us out. It looks like it. 17 MR. MOXON: It was. Ms. Summers produced it 18 in her deposition. 19 THE COURT: And so this was made an exhibit 20 to her deposition? 21 MR. MOXON: That's correct. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. LIROT: And I assume that deposition was 24 taken in this case? 25 MR. MOXON: That's right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 852 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Okay. So this is a long letter. And there seem 3 to be two paragraphs. On page 2, the only thing circled 4 there is paragraph No. 2. Did you circle that? 5 A No. It was circled when I got it. 6 Q Okay. And -- 7 THE COURT: When was Ms. Summers' 8 deposition? 9 MR. MOXON: When? 10 THE COURT: M'hum (affirmative). 11 MR. MOXON: I don't know. I can ask Sarah, 12 your Honor. It was about five months ago. 13 THE COURT: Her deposition? 14 MR. MOXON: About five months ago. 15 THE COURT: Oh, five months ago. I thought 16 you said about five minutes ago. 17 MR. MOXON: No. 18 THE COURT: Five months ago, okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: We were busy over lunch. 20 THE COURT: Yes. 21 MR. MOXON: It's a little more, 22 September 5th. 23 THE COURT: September 5th? 24 MR. MOXON: Yes. 25 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think, quite simply -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 853 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: No, it couldn't have been 2 September 5th. 3 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll tell you what, Judge. 4 The documents -- 5 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, October 16th. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 MR. LIROT: All right. The documents that 8 we were provided actually have excerpts. At least one 9 deposition of Ms. Summers was taken on September 5th 10 of 2001, and there looks to be another deposition 11 taken of Ms. Summers on October 16th of 2001. 12 THE COURT: And then there was a third one? 13 MR. LIROT: And if there was a third one, 14 there is no except in what we were provided. 15 MR. MOXON: That's the third one, your 16 Honor. 17 THE COURT: Pardon me. 18 MR. MOXON: The October deposition was the 19 third. There are three very short versions of her 20 deposition. October was the last one. 21 THE COURT: I was just given 9/5 and 22 then 10/16, so -- 23 MR. MOXON: There's one about -- oh, a year 24 earlier. 25 MR. DANDAR: June 13th, 2001, I took her KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 854 Volume 7, 1 deposition, the first one. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Ms. Brooks, you told me that the only two -- I 5 guess paragraph 2 and paragraph 7 on this letter were 6 circled. And apparently the letter was provided to you 7 with those circled? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Was it accompanied by any instruction that those 10 are the only issues that were in this letter that needed to 11 be addressed by you? 12 A No, it wasn't -- as I said earlier, the things 13 that were highlighted or circled or whatever, was somebody 14 else's idea of what I might possibly have to include in a 15 recantation. 16 Q Okay. Did you go through this entire document 17 relative to what you were considering to put in an 18 affidavit to recant earlier testimony? 19 A Yes, I did. 20 Q All right. And I guess I'll look at paragraph 21 No. 2, since that one says -- and I'm quoting a letter 22 here. It says your stated purpose of dissolving the LMT as 23 a corporation: 24 So that you and Bob would not have to 25 testify as to financial matters also places me KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 855 Volume 7, 1 and all of the other staff members at risk. The 2 argument that you just don't want Scientology to 3 know about the finances takes on new meaning in 4 light of Item No. 1. It also brings up the 5 question of the validity of the LMT, if it can be 6 dissolved at once in order to protect you and 7 Bob -- once again, with little care for 8 employees. 9 What importance, if any, did you place on that 10 sentence? 11 A None. 12 Q Okay. And why was the LMT dissolved? 13 A I believe I testified about this earlier. The 14 LMT was dissolved around the same time that I ordered 15 Jesse -- Mr. Minton and I ordered Jesse to withdraw as an 16 expert, that I withdrew as a witness, that Mr. Minton 17 informed Mr. Dandar that he wasn't going to fund the case 18 any longer, and basically we disbanded the LMT in a further 19 effort to try to distance ourselves from this wrongful 20 death case. 21 Q Well, I think your earlier testimony was that the 22 LMT did a lot more than participate in any activity with 23 the wrongful death case. Isn't that true? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q And Ms. Summers did a lot more than participate KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 856 Volume 7, 1 in the wrongful death case. Isn't that true? 2 A That's correct. 3 Q All right. What about paragraph No. 7? 4 THE COURT: Are we introducing this or is -- 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, I would like to -- 6 THE COURT: -- this an exhibit or what? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll go ahead and mark 8 it. 9 And I believe we're up to No. 16? 10 THE CLERK: 15. 11 MR. LIROT: 15. 12 THE COURT: So you're referring to -- these 13 references have been to Defendants' -- Plaintiff's 15? 14 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge. 15 THE COURT: Do you have any objection to 16 this being introduced? 17 MR. FUGATE: No, your Honor. I think for 18 the record that it's my understanding that the 19 circling was done at the deposition, if that makes any 20 difference to anybody. But other than that, I have no 21 objection to it. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I suppose if that 23 becomes important, you can put somebody on for that -- 24 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 25 THE COURT: -- if that's important. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 857 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, if I could make a 2 comment? 3 THE COURT: Sure. 4 THE WITNESS: This letter was full of lies 5 and innuendo, which ended up on the Internet, and was 6 the beginning of an unbelievable smear campaign that's 7 going on against us by Ms. Summers and other people 8 who are now part of Mr. Dandar's trial team. And -- 9 THE COURT: Well, we don't need this, so 10 just know you can't get into that. Maybe they'll ask 11 you something about it, and you can answer it. But I 12 don't need that kind of a discourse without a 13 question. 14 MR. LIROT: Well, I'll just ask one final 15 question on the letter. Was there -- 16 THE COURT: That reminds me. I'm getting a 17 couple things in the mail, anonymous. You know, "You 18 might want to see this," some Internet postings. 19 Typically I just would throw those things out. I 20 mean, I wouldn't bog the court file down. I'm happy 21 to put them in the court file. I mean, I don't pay 22 much attention to anonymous stuff off of an Internet 23 Web site. 24 What do you want me to do with it? 25 MR. FUGATE: You're getting them addressed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 858 Volume 7, 1 to you -- 2 THE COURT: I got one. It came certified. 3 And, you know, Sue just stamps it in and puts it on my 4 desk. And it was an anonymous letter to me saying, 5 "You might want to read" -- I don't know what it said, 6 to tell you the truth. "You might want to read the 7 following," something about Mr. Hubbard and his -- 8 I'll show it to you all, and you tell me what to do -- 9 I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if I didn't get more. 10 It's not unusual for a judge to get mailings on a 11 high-profile case. I usually just throw them out or 12 file them in the court file. In this case, I normally 13 would just file it in the court file. If that's all 14 right, that's what I'll do. 15 MR. MOXON: One suggestion, your Honor. If 16 you keep the envelope, the post office can trace it 17 and see who is doing it. It's certified. 18 THE COURT: Well, this has an address on it. 19 MR. MOXON: Okay. 20 THE COURT: It's actually an address like 21 Clearwater, as I recall. But I normally put that in 22 the court file too. I mean, I just put the whole 23 thing in the court file. 24 I mean, I guess what I'm trying to say, do 25 you all want copies of this? This is not the kind of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 859 Volume 7, 1 stuff that I normally would think my secretary would 2 make copies of. 3 MR. FUGATE: I think for both sides to take 4 a look at as far as -- I don't think -- I mean, 5 there's so much paper in this case. 6 THE COURT: Well, I kind of figured. And 7 nobody would ever know what it was there for. So -- 8 but what I would like to do is just show it to you 9 all, and if you don't have any need for it -- 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't mean to speak for 11 them, but I certainly don't. 12 THE COURT: I will throw it away or file it 13 in the court file. I think I told my secretary just 14 before lunch to make a copy of this so you all can see 15 what I'm talking about. That was the first one I got, 16 but it wouldn't be surprising to me, if this case 17 ended up in trial, that I started getting mail. It's 18 not uncommon. 19 MR. LIROT: Thanks, Judge. 20 THE COURT: What I would really have to 21 worry about is if this was a death penalty case. Then 22 I do have to worry about it, because I have to be sure 23 everybody gets copies. And I put in an order that I 24 have -- you know, that can become bothersome. But in 25 a case like this -- anonymous Internet postings. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 860 Volume 7, 1 Worse than whatever it is they could send me, I 2 suppose. 3 Continue on. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, on the first page of that letter, I 6 guess Ms. Summers talks about in paragraph 1, or at least 7 the No. 1, it says, "The revelation in your recent 8 deposition of $800,000 that was donated to the LMT from 9 foreign sources and then every penny of that money was 10 delivered to Bob Minton is difficult to make sense of." 11 Down at the bottom, it continues to say, in the 12 next full paragraph, "I cannot make sense of this. If Bob 13 was the sole source of LMT funding and our salaries came 14 from the LMT account, how then can he be given $800,000 15 from this account and then turn around and claim there's no 16 money to pay our salaries?" 17 What does that refer to? Did Mr. Minton take 18 $800,000 out of the LMT account? 19 A No. 20 Q Was there a period of time that you gave 21 Mr. Minton money out of the LMT account? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. Can you tell me how much that was? 24 A $800,000. 25 Q Okay. And what was that for? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 861 Volume 7, 1 A It was to repay monies that he had put into the 2 LMT. 3 Q Was this -- was it hidden by you at some point 4 that all the money had come from Mr. Minton? 5 A I wasn't aware of it at that point. 6 Q Did you ever recant that statement anywhere else? 7 A That's already come up in this testimony. And 8 that was done. 9 Q Was there anything else in Ms. Summers' letter 10 that you felt appropriate to put in your two affidavits 11 recanting earlier testimony? 12 A No. 13 Q So you looked at this and said, "I've got this 14 one handled. Let's go on to the next one"? 15 A I looked at this and gave it the legitimacy that 16 it was due. 17 Q All right. The next document in that packet 18 appears to be an excerpt from a videotaped deposition of 19 you individually on September 7th of 2001. And again, that 20 document was given to me with the highlighted portions just 21 as they are. 22 THE COURT: What -- are you marking this? I 23 mean, we need a record here. Is this a number? 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'll go ahead and we'll 25 put this entire packet in as Plaintiff's Exhibit KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 862 Volume 7, 1 No. 16. I don't have any copies of it. We just got 2 it this morning, and I only had time to make a few 3 copies of some of the things that I thought were more 4 interesting. 5 THE COURT: Well, why don't you make it then 6 a composite exhibit? 7 MR. LIROT: I will do that, Judge. We will 8 make this Plaintiff's Composite Exhibit No. 16. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, is the letter -- is 10 Ms. Summers' letter part of that composite -- 11 MR. LIROT: We'll make -- we'll make 12 Ms. Summers' letter a part of that. If you would like 13 to renumber -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we just make it a 15 Composite Exhibit 15? 16 THE COURT: 15, and Ms. Summers' letter will 17 be part of it. 18 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 19 THE COURT: And I'll count on you making a 20 copy to the clerk and keeping your copy. 21 MR. LIROT: Very good. 22 THE COURT: If you think I need it for 23 whatever reason, why, you can make me a copy as well. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q Now, describe to me that next item. You KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 863 Volume 7, 1 obviously -- I'm going on the belief that you looked at all 2 these documents that were provided to you and that you used 3 these to analyze -- to in fact comply with your desire to 4 make the record straight. Right? 5 A This was part of what I used. 6 Q Okay. What is the -- what's the information in 7 that particular -- I guess what I'll -- I guess this will 8 be Composite Exhibit 15, Sub C, we'll call this. And we'll 9 call the first -- the first excerpt A, Ms. Summers' letter 10 is B, and this will be 15C. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I just ask for -- 12 if we're going to do that, if we could go back to A 13 and just identify what pages, at least, of the 14 deposition there are so the record is clear. And then 15 on C, just -- because these are excerpts -- what pages 16 there are in the deposition that are in front of her. 17 I think that would be useful. 18 These are not the entire depos, I don't 19 believe, are they? 20 MR. LIROT: No. 21 THE COURT: I think the only thing this is 22 being put in the record for is just to show what she 23 was given, so -- 24 MR. WEINBERG: And just for the clarity of 25 the record, I would ask -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 864 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Whose deposition and what date? 2 Maybe you could tell us the pages. 3 THE WITNESS: Okay. This is the cover page, 4 page 1 -- 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 THE WITNESS: -- deposition of Stacy Brooks, 7 August 15th, 2001, 1:35 p.m. 8 THE COURT: Pages? 9 THE WITNESS: Page 1, page 49, page 93, 94, 10 95, and 149. 11 THE COURT: Thank you. 12 Is that what you wanted? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. And each time we go 14 through a transcript, if we could do that. 15 THE COURT: Yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: That would be useful. 17 MR. LIROT: I'll do that, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q So C would be your deposition of September 7th, 20 2001. And I don't have that copy. Can you tell the Court 21 what pages I've handed you that were part of this packet 22 provided to me. 23 A Page 1, page 40, and the reporter's deposition 24 certificate page. 25 Q And what was it that you reviewed in that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 865 Volume 7, 1 document that had any impact on the affidavits recanting 2 testimony that you offered? 3 A There was a document that Mr. Minton received 4 from Mr. Dandar. And Mr. Dandar had told Mr. Minton not to 5 tell anyone that he had gotten it from Mr. Dandar. And so 6 when I was asked, "Do you know" -- well, it says, "Do you 7 aware [sic] Mr. Minton got this report," but I think it 8 meant to say, "Do you know where Mr. Minton got this 9 report?" 10 And I said, "No. That was false." 11 So in my first recantation affidavit, it's 12 covered in Point B on page 2. 13 Q Okay. Do you know what the document was that you 14 referred to? The document in your recant affidavit. 15 A Oh. Yes. It was a report written by Brenda 16 Hubert concerning Lisa McPherson. 17 THE COURT: Report written by whom, ma'am? 18 THE WITNESS: A woman named Brenda Hubert. 19 THE COURT: Oh, that's that thing? 20 MR. FUGATE: That's the Brenda Hubert 21 knowledge report -- 22 THE COURT: Knowledge report, okay. 23 THE WITNESS: Right, the knowledge report. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q How was it that you were made aware of that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 866 Volume 7, 1 document? 2 A Mr. Minton told me he had it. 3 Q Anything else? Did he tell you how he got it? 4 A I just said he told me he got it from Mr. Dandar. 5 Q Fair enough. 6 The next one I have is Composite Exhibit 15D, 7 which is an excerpt of the videotaped deposition of Stacy 8 Brooks of June 23rd, 2000, and pages -- 9 THE COURT: How many depositions did you 10 have to give? 11 THE WITNESS: Many, many, many. 12 THE COURT: Wow. Maybe I should add you to 13 the list of the ones that probably had too many 14 depositions taken. 15 THE WITNESS: I was hoping you would do 16 that, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought you only 18 had one, so -- 19 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: Well, then I'll add you to the 21 list as well. If you were deposed in two separate 22 cases about the same thing, that shouldn't have been 23 allowed to happen. And that's the fault of either me 24 or Judge Baird or both of us, but I'm not sure we were 25 exactly understanding that this was happening on both KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 867 Volume 7, 1 ends of the county. Certainly I was not. And I 2 apologize to you. That should not happen. 3 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, just to make the record 6 clear, this is 15D, June 23rd, 2000 -- 7 THE COURT: And so that's clear, I'm not 8 being critical of counsel here. There are separate 9 counsel involved in these cases. But the deal is that 10 we shouldn't have witnesses coming in, take -- have 11 long depositions being taken about the same 12 information, when really they should be -- two lawyers 13 ought to be able to be there at the same time, one of 14 them ask questions, somebody else listen in, and the 15 deponent inconvenienced one time. 16 And I'm sure if Judge Baird and I had 17 realized that this was happening, he and I, one or the 18 other, would have said, well, you know, we're not 19 going to have this. It's not fair to the folks. 20 I can only assure you I really didn't 21 realize that this was happening. At least if I did, 22 I'm not aware of it. So that's what I was referring 23 to. And I'm sure Judge Baird would feel the same way. 24 One person to be deposed, there's two lawyers, well, 25 you tell the lawyers to consolidate these things, take KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 868 Volume 7, 1 them together. 2 I'm not suggesting if only one is there that 3 the other doesn't have a right to take a deposition. 4 We don't normally put witnesses through duplicate, 5 very lengthy depositions. 6 MR. LIROT: We certainly acknowledge that, 7 your Honor. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q What I'm referring to here is 15D, June 23rd, 10 2000. And just for the record, it says here, "Do you know 11 if Mr. Minton" -- I guess I'll give the page numbers. It's 12 the cover page, page 126, and then the certificate page of 13 146. 14 And the question here was whether or not 15 Mr. Minton provided any money to Dell Liebreich. Your 16 answer was: "I don't know." 17 The question was: "Do you know if there's any 18 agreement with Dell Liebreich and Mr. Minton with respect 19 to the potential proceeds of this case?" 20 Your answer was: "Well, that's been discussed, I 21 know that." 22 Then question, which isn't a question: "It 23 certainly has." 24 And then Mr. Bolt says: "Now, that's a yes or no 25 question, Ms. Brooks." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 869 Volume 7, 1 And the answer was: "To be honest, I'm not 2 sure." 3 Now, this was in June of 2000, and I'll hand that 4 to you so you can look at that. And that was part of the 5 packet that was provided to you relative to the affidavits 6 that you prepared to recant earlier testimony. And I think 7 it's pretty clear that you used that in some fashion to 8 recant earlier testimony in some of your affidavits, right? 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 10 testifying. And also for point of clarification, I 11 think the entire -- the entirety of the depositions 12 were also provided. So this is somewhat confusing, 13 and I don't know -- 14 I don't want to interject myself into the 15 cross, but don't you have copies of each of her 16 depositions as well, as well as the highlighted 17 portions? 18 MR. LIROT: We don't know what you gave her. 19 That's only what we're going by. 20 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'll go back and -- 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. FUGATE: -- let the submission, but I do 23 object to the testifying. 24 THE COURT: That would be sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 870 Volume 7, 1 Q Well, I guess my question was, Were these 2 excerpts given to you, or did you get the entire 3 depositions for those dates? 4 A I believe I had more than this, for sure. 5 MR. LIROT: Well, then, Judge, I need some 6 clarification. Is counsel's position that the whole 7 deposition was given to Ms. Brooks and that just these 8 highlighted portions were given to us? 9 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm confused because I 10 don't know what's over there now. I know that the 11 request was both to both counsel for Ms. Brooks and 12 counsel for Mr. Minton for the entire depositions. 13 And as I sit here, I know that all of Mr. Minton's 14 depositions were given to him. I do believe -- and I 15 thought Ms. Brooks' were. If we need to give those in 16 their entirety to them, we will. But Mr. McGowan can 17 clear that up. If we only gave excerpts, we only gave 18 excerpts. 19 Do you remember? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe that 21 there were excerpts, but I believe separate from the 22 excerpts were the entire depositions. 23 THE COURT: So but there were excerpts? 24 These were excerpts? 25 MR. McGOWAN: There were excerpts, and then KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 871 Volume 7, 1 there were depositions. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 MR. LIROT: And, Judge, I think we requested 4 the excerpts. We were interested in what was 5 highlighted. That's what we were interested in. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. That's what I'm looking 7 at here, just this highlighting. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q The next document I'm going to hand to you is 11 apparently a notice of filing plaintiff's witness list, 12 which appears to be an April 17th, 2000, witness list in 13 the wrongful death case when it was still in Hillsborough 14 county. And it looks like the only highlighted portion 15 here is the name Teresa Summers. What significance would 16 that have being placed in this packet? 17 A Well, it was my understanding -- and I'm going to 18 refer to documents that you haven't yet put in evidence 19 that should be in your package. It was my understanding 20 that the reason this was included was that there was 21 testimony by me in another excerpt, which we haven't talked 22 about yet, about whether or not I knew Teresa Summers or 23 something. And I can't remember exactly, and I'd have to 24 look at it again. But there was -- clearly, someone had 25 thought that I was -- that I had lied about my knowledge of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 872 Volume 7, 1 Teresa Summers in some way. But I did not include this 2 because I didn't feel that that was the case based on the 3 dates of the various documents that I reviewed. 4 Q Okay. Well, this might clear it up. I guess 5 Composite Exhibit 15 Sub F appears to be the cover page or 6 at least page 4 of Ms. Summers' deposition of June 13th of 7 2000. And just the -- I guess the next page is page 5, and 8 it just has one page of her direct examination. And 9 there's nothing highlighted on this. Does this refresh 10 your memory as to the significance of those documents? 11 A I believe I was given more than this, but -- 12 Q I think you were too, actually. I see what I'll 13 call Exhibit 15G. It appears to be the deposition of Stacy 14 Brooks from June 23rd of 2000 -- oops. And it's the cover 15 page, and then pages 254, 255, and then the signature page 16 of 283. Let me hand you that, because it looks like 17 there's certain questions asked of you regarding 18 Ms. Summers' in this excerpt. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I don't think he said it, but 20 the presumption is that 15E was little witness list. 21 Is that what he said it was? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's what he said it 23 was. 24 MR. LIROT: Yes. 25 A Okay. I should probably read this to the Court KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 873 Volume 7, 1 so that she can understand what I'm about to say. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: The highlighted part: 4 The question: "Teresa Summers, you claim, 5 has come to you?" 6 And my answer, "Is she a witness? She has 7 contacted us. We did not contact her." 8 THE COURT: Maybe I don't -- that's -- 9 THE WITNESS: It's to the LMT. 10 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 11 Has come to you as an employee -- oh, this 12 is to be taught -- in other words, LMT, you told me 13 the other day that one of the things that LMT did was 14 to counsel people -- 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: -- who left the Church. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Is that what you're talking 19 about? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 THE WITNESS: And the question was: "When 23 was this?" 24 Answer: "Recently." 25 And then question: "When?" KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 874 Volume 7, 1 And then my answer: "You know, this is 2 going to get this girl in trouble. I don't like 3 this." 4 And then the counsel said: "She's 5 testified." 6 And then Mr. Dandar said to me: "We've 7 already deposed her. She's been deposed." 8 And then I say: "Oh, okay." And then: "So 9 what's the question?" 10 And the question: "When did you talk to 11 Teresa Summers?" 12 And the answer: "I haven't talked to Teresa 13 Summers. I haven't talked to Teresa Summers." 14 And the question: Who talked to Teresa 15 Summers in the LMT?" 16 And my answer: "Nobody. She sent an e-mail 17 or maybe a letter." 18 And question: "When? When?" 19 And the answer: "Actually, I think she sent 20 it -- well, it was to Jesse, and it was received maybe 21 two days ago." 22 Okay. So that was the testimony. And I 23 believe that someone -- or, I thought at the time that 24 someone may have thought that I was lying about not 25 knowing her at that time, but in fact what I said was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 875 Volume 7, 1 true -- 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. 4 A -- because -- well, it was true. 5 Q Okay. Composite Exhibit 15H is an excerpt of 6 Ms. Summers' deposition of September 5th, 2001, with a 7 cover page, pages 36, 37, and the signature page of 8 page 105. And I guess there are only two questions. There 9 on page 36, they ask about Ms. Summers having worked for 10 the LMT, and the other question is about Ms. Summers making 11 complaints about the Church. And I'll hand you this. 12 THE COURT: I thought she was a consultant. 13 No. Was this somebody else? 14 MR. DANDAR: This is a former Scientologist. 15 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 16 MR. DANDAR: Not retained by the plaintiff. 17 THE WITNESS: But on his witness list. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 THE WITNESS: On the plaintiff's witness 20 list. 21 THE COURT: Well, was she the one -- I 22 remember when you were going through, at somebody's 23 request, a group of people who had worked for LMT -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. She was one of them. 25 THE COURT: -- and one of them in particular KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 876 Volume 7, 1 you said had really done a lot of work and done 2 some -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. That was Teresa Summers. 4 THE COURT: Okay. That's where I heard the 5 name then. 6 THE WITNESS: Do you want me to read the 7 highlighted part every time? 8 THE COURT: I don't. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay. 10 MR. LIROT: No. 11 THE COURT: I'm not saying -- if counsel 12 wants you to, but . . . 13 THE WITNESS: Okay. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Now, I take it that the explanation there about 16 your knowledge of Ms. Summers coincides with the dates of 17 that excerpt. Is that correct? 18 A I'm sorry, I -- say that again. 19 Q You said that you had not said anything 20 untruthful about your knowledge -- 21 A Oh. 22 Q -- or relationship with Ms. Summers at the LMT, 23 and they speak about dates in that certain highlighted 24 section. 25 A Right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 877 Volume 7, 1 Q So that's consistent with you? 2 A Yes. This was September 5th, 2001 -- 3 Q Right. 4 A -- and this is Teresa's deposition on 5 September 5th, 2001. 6 Q And that's her deposition. So obviously you 7 don't know what she testified to. That's just some point 8 of reference for you, right? 9 A Right. 10 Q All right. The next sub exhibit I have is 15I, 11 and this is an excerpt from the September 7th, 2001, 12 deposition of Stacy Brooks as representative of the Lisa 13 McPherson Trust. And this is page 1, the cover page; 14 page 60; page 107; page 108; and then the signature page. 15 And I'll hand this document to you. There looks 16 to be only two things about -- one being the LMT office 17 being operated out of Mr. Dandar's office, and I think you 18 already testified to that. Wasn't it true that the only -- 19 the only thing she did at Mr. Dandar's office was try to 20 find office space for the LMT, make phone calls from there 21 for a little while? 22 A Well, we operated out of -- yes, it is true to a 23 certain degree. We did operate out of Mr. Dandar's office 24 until we had our own office. So part of what I was doing 25 was -- you know, Mr. Dandar let us work out of his office KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 878 Volume 7, 1 to find our office. 2 Q Okay. And there was something else in that 3 segment about a check going to Mr. Spector? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Do you know who Mr. Spector is? Can you tell the 6 Court? 7 A He's been in the courtroom, your Honor. He's 8 Mr. Dandar's videographer and a private investigator who 9 works for Mr. Dandar. 10 Q And I think the question was, Did the Lisa 11 McPherson Trust ever pay Mr. Spector for anything? 12 A Right. And I said I don't think so. 13 Q And then I think -- 14 A But I had to correct that in my first recantation 15 affidavit because I found a check for $168. 16 Q Right. Well, we'll call that Exhibit 15J. And 17 that looks to be, at least to some extent -- a little bit 18 bad copy -- but at least a copy of the check to Mr. Spector 19 for $168? 20 A Correct. 21 THE COURT: From LMT? 22 MR. LIROT: Pardon me? 23 THE COURT: From LMT? 24 THE WITNESS: From LMT, yes, your Honor. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 879 Volume 7, 1 Q What was that check for? 2 A As I recall, it was for a copy of a videotape of 3 one of my depositions. I think that's what it was for. 4 THE COURT: Did the Church have the LMT 5 checks? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Have those been produced at some 8 time? 9 MR. DANDAR: Deposition (nodding 10 affirmatively). 11 THE COURT: Okay. So these were some checks 12 pursuant to a request to produce? 13 MR. DANDAR: At the deposition of the bank. 14 THE COURT: Oh, okay. One of those ones 15 that says if -- in other words, they give you the ten 16 days to object, and if you don't object, then the 17 people send the -- 18 MR. DANDAR: No -- 19 THE COURT: -- documents. There's no -- no, 20 this is a deposition. 21 MR. DANDAR: It's a real deposition. 22 THE COURT: Okay. Because there wasn't 23 anything wrong with it. That check was given 24 pursuant -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 880 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: -- to the work that had been 2 done by him -- 3 THE WITNESS: Oh. 4 THE COURT: -- for LMT -- 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. 6 THE COURT: -- for you or -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: But you had said you didn't 9 think so and -- 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: -- you were just correcting your 12 testimony. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q All right. Ms. Brooks, the next one will be 15K, 17 which appears to be excerpts of your deposition of 18 August 15th, 2001. And it has the cover page, page 1; 19 page 62; page 63; page 72; and then the signature page, 20 149. And there look to be two -- two areas highlighted 21 here. One highlighted is a question. It says: "You have 22 no statements of any, slash, no written statements by any 23 of the witnesses in this case?" 24 And your answer was: "No." 25 And then there's another highlighted part. It KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 881 Volume 7, 1 says -- your question was -- or, your answer, I guess: 2 "Why not? I don't have any reason to have any statements 3 by witnesses. I'm not involved in this case." 4 What was there you needed to recant about that? 5 Did you review those particular excerpts? 6 A Can I see that one? 7 Q Yes, you can. There was a lengthy part I want to 8 get to, but I guess I'll retrieve it back after you answer 9 the first part of my question. 10 THE COURT: I think if that's your only copy 11 you'd better make sure you get all that stuff back if 12 you're going to copy it for the clerk. 13 A Okay. Sorry. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q I haven't gotten to the second part yet, just 16 about the witness statements. Anything there that you were 17 made aware of that you needed to recant? 18 A Yes. 19 Q Okay. What was it in that particular statement 20 that you had to set the record straight on? 21 A Well, this was a document production line of 22 questioning. And this is -- I need a few pages earlier, 23 but I believe this was referring to the unedited videotape, 24 either the unedited videotape or information -- or data on 25 our hard drives. And I did have to inform the Court that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 882 Volume 7, 1 the hard drives were removed and they've now been turned 2 over to the special master. And the unedited videotape 3 also needs to be turned over to the special master. 4 Q Okay. 5 THE COURT: I kept reading about this in 6 this series of orders signed by the judge. I don't 7 even know what they are. 8 MR. McGOWAN: I do. There were a series 9 of -- I don't know how many. They were unedited 10 videotapes at the LMT. My understanding is -- 11 THE COURT: Unedited what? 12 MR. McGOWAN: Videotapes. Of what, I don't 13 know. 14 THE WITNESS: I can explain. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. McGOWAN: But there was a body of 17 videotapes that existed. They were removed from the 18 LMT, my understanding it is, by John Merrett. 19 I have made numerous attempts to contact 20 Mr. Merrett and get those back. He was supposed to 21 call my office today. As of the lunch break, he had 22 not. We were trying to retrieve those to get them 23 into the hands of the special master. What is on 24 those, I have no idea. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Ms. Brooks, what are KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 883 Volume 7, 1 they? 2 THE WITNESS: Well, in fact the entire body 3 of unedited videotapes is the property of our 4 videographer, whose name is Mark Bunker. And a lot of 5 the unedited videotapes are things that he videoed 6 before he was doing anything with the LMT at all. But 7 some of the unedited videotape is of -- you know, it's 8 picket footage. I'm not sure what else it is, but it 9 has to do with Scientology in some way. 10 And the history of the discovery on this, to 11 my understanding is that at first Judge Moody -- and I 12 may be wrong about this, but this is my recollection. 13 At first Judge Moody had limited what should be turned 14 over just to statements by witnesses on the list. And 15 then somehow or another it got expanded to being 16 anything at all about Scientology, or at least that 17 was my understanding. And so -- 18 THE COURT: Not said by a witness in this 19 case -- 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: -- but just any old body -- 22 THE WITNESS: Said by anybody. 23 THE COURT: Well, that would have been too 24 broad, most likely, of an order, but -- 25 THE WITNESS: Well, but it was the order -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 884 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 THE WITNESS: -- as far as I know. So, you 3 know, unfortunately, I felt that it was too broad of 4 an order, and I took it upon myself not to comply. So 5 that was the wrong thing to do. So now we're trying 6 to get the videotape back. 7 And then what we'll have to do, I think, is 8 have Mark Bunker come down here and work with the 9 special master to go through each reel of unedited 10 videotape to identify which -- which ones are relevant 11 to this proceeding and which ones really are not. 12 MR. FUGATE: Does that mean if you get them 13 back from Mr. Merrett -- I hate to interrupt. 14 But you don't have them, right? 15 MR. McGOWAN: No. 16 THE COURT: Mr. Merrett was quite a prize. 17 He was the one that used to appear by phone -- 18 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 19 THE COURT: -- and on what I would consider 20 to be some fairly important matters. And to me, it's 21 difficult to deal with a lawyer on important matters 22 over the telephone. 23 But if you're suggesting -- and I don't 24 know, somebody better contact Mr. Merrett, because if 25 Mr. Merrett, knowing that there was a court order that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 885 Volume 7, 1 said there was something to be produced -- and I 2 already heard Ms. Brooks say that Mr. Merrett said 3 leave them in the hallway, and didn't show up. 4 Mr. Merrett might find himself in some difficulty. 5 So Mr. Merrett most likely, would be my 6 guess, isn't going to have those videotapes. He's not 7 going to know what you're talking about. Maybe I'm 8 wrong. But I don't know. I just imagine that's why 9 you haven't heard from him. 10 MR. McGOWAN: I have actually heard -- 11 THE COURT: He, by the way -- he, by the 12 way, is, as I said -- just all I can say is quite a 13 character. I mean, and I'm not saying that -- he just 14 walks to a different drummer. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, with -- in hopes 16 that he would comply, in hopes that your Honor was 17 wrong about that, it was my intention to give him 18 today to do that, or at least to turn them over, and 19 if I didn't hear from him today I would get either a 20 subpoena or court order and we'd bring it to the 21 Court's attention. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. McGOWAN: Hopefully, that won't be 24 necessary. If it is, it is. 25 THE COURT: Well, as you know, as I said, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 886 Volume 7, 1 I'll be happy to command Mr. Merrett to appear in 2 court with anything that he took that was ordered 3 turned over by the Court and he said put out in the 4 hallway and just whisked them away. But I'm betting 5 you, he won't show up with a box for us. 6 MR. McGOWAN: Well, your Honor, I'm still 7 struggling for phone numbers. But I would -- 8 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the plaintiff would love 9 for you to issue an order to have him appear in court 10 this week. 11 THE COURT: Well, you know, as I said, 12 Mr. Merrett has never -- luckily, Mr. Merrett 13 practices in Jacksonville, and I don't have to deal 14 with Mr. Merrett very often. 15 MR. DANDAR: But I have to deal with him. 16 THE COURT: I guess I was just traveling -- 17 this was another Court's problem. My guess is he 18 knows what's going on here and what is being suggested 19 about these tapes. I don't know, but I expect that if 20 he ever had them, they were deep-sixed somewhere and 21 he's never going to admit it. This is my guess. Now, 22 I could be wrong. 23 THE WITNESS: I don't think so. 24 MR. DANDAR: Would you let him appear by 25 phone? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 887 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: I think he'll produce them. 2 He's out of town. 3 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, would you let him appear 5 by phone? 6 THE COURT: No, I absolutely will not. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. I mean -- 8 THE COURT: I mean for what? How can he 9 bring something by the telephone? 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, he can tell you what it 11 is and where it is and why he hasn't produced it and 12 also testify in reference to the allegations 13 Ms. Brooks has made against him. 14 THE COURT: Well, he can -- what's wrong 15 with this man? Something like this, his -- his 16 practice of law has been challenged. You mean he's 17 just too damn arrogant to get in the car and come down 18 here and defend himself or -- 19 MR. DANDAR: That I can't answer. 20 THE COURT: Well, that's what I sure would 21 do if I were a lawyer and I had these kind of 22 accusations being made. I would either -- I would 23 either -- but I wouldn't say: Gee, Judge, if you 24 don't mind again, once again, let me just appear on 25 the telephone. That's good enough for you. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 888 Volume 7, 1 So, yes, I'll let him appear by phone, and 2 if his credibility is at issue, I guess I'll just have 3 to guess. 4 MR. DANDAR: (Gestured.) 5 MR. LIROT: Well, I guess -- 6 THE COURT: I don't think he served his 7 client very well, what he would be appearing on, what 8 I perceived his client must have thought were some 9 fairly important matters. Over a telephone, it's 10 difficult to -- you do the best you can. But, I mean, 11 what happens is lawyers are talking and the judge 12 wants to interrupt or the other side does, and the 13 next thing you know they're still prattling. They've 14 been prattling, and you don't know even know what they 15 said. It's just not a very good way to do business in 16 an important matter. 17 I suppose Mr. Minton was paying him well, 18 and Mr. Minton would probably have paid him to come 19 down and represent him. That didn't seem to be a very 20 good thing for him to do. If he was too far away, 21 then he probably needed to retain local counsel to 22 come in. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q With that as an introduction, Judge. On page 72, 25 the question posed to Ms. Brooks: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 889 Volume 7, 1 Question, it says: "I just want to make it very 2 clear then -- correct me if I'm wrong -- your testimony is 3 that there's not a single piece of paper in the LMT 4 building which is a statement by you or Minton or Prince 5 concerning Scientology, concerning any issue in this case, 6 or concerning Lisa McPherson. Correct?" 7 Your answer, Ms. Brooks, was: "That's correct. 8 The only place anything exists like that are in John 9 Merrett's files, which are his files." 10 Question: "So you gave some files to 11 Mr. Merrett?" 12 Answer: "Well, he -- he is in charge of all of 13 our legal files, and they have -- I believe they probably 14 have -- well, to be honest, I don't know if they do or not. 15 I asked Mr. Merrett if there was anything in his files 16 responsive, and he said no. Other than that, you know, 17 said, 'Anything in my files is a attorney work product or 18 attorney/client privilege.'" 19 Question: "So there might be some documents, but 20 you consider them to be privileged?" 21 Answer: Well, what he told me is that they were 22 legal documents and that wasn't something that I needed to 23 be concerned about in this document production." 24 And that's the conclusion of that, so I think in 25 your affidavit you put something to the effect of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 890 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Merrett being an extension of Mr. Dandar? 2 A Not by this point. By this point, we were 3 extremely alienated from Mr. Dandar, and the relationship 4 had changed. 5 THE COURT: Between you all or between 6 Mr. Merrett and Mr. Dandar? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, Mr. Merrett representing 8 us; therefore, his relationship had changed as well. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q The next document I have is Sub Exhibit K, and 11 this is a videotaped deposition of Stacy Brooks from 12 September 7th, 2001. I have the cover page 1 -- 13 THE COURT: Maybe I'm all wet here. Did I 14 not -- did I not read in an affidavit where somebody 15 alleged that Mr. Merrett said, about something that 16 was compelled or supposed to be delivered at a 17 deposition, "Just leave it outside and I'll take care 18 of it"? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Who said that, Ms. Brooks? 21 THE WITNESS: I think I said that, your 22 Honor. 23 MR. FUGATE: And that's in reference to the 24 videotapes. 25 THE COURT: That's in reference to the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 891 Volume 7, 1 videotapes. And then they disappeared, never to be 2 seen again. And this lawyer knew that they were 3 supposed to be produced. And this lawyer said, "Leave 4 them out in the hallway, and they'll be gone"? And 5 he's going to come in and tell me that and say, "Here 6 they are, and I whisked them away so she wouldn't 7 produce them"? Well, good for him. 8 MR. LIROT: Oh, did I publish -- I'm sorry, 9 this is L. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. September 7th, 2001, will be Sub 12 Exhibit 15L, and Ms. Brooks' deposition from September 7th 13 of 2001, on page 1, I have page 78, and I have the 14 signature page. And this deals with destruction of records 15 from LMT. And I'll go ahead and hand you that, Ms. Brooks. 16 And I'll ask if you reviewed that in preparing your 17 affidavit. 18 THE COURT: What is that, Counselor? 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, this is the -- an excerpt 20 from Ms. Brooks' deposition of 9/7/01, September 7th, 21 2001. And they're asking her questions about the 22 destruction of some documents at the LMT. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q And I'll go ahead and ask you, for the Court's 25 edification, just to read what the questions and answers KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 892 Volume 7, 1 are on that page. 2 THE COURT: What does it say on the front, 3 did you say? 4 MR. LIROT: It's the cover page of her -- 5 it's a videotape -- it's a transcript of a videotaped 6 deposition from September 7th, 2001, of Stacy Brooks. 7 A Do you want me to read the highlighted part? 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Sure. Please. That's what I've been focusing 10 on. 11 A Question, by Mr. Moxon: "Just to clarify one 12 point you've mentioned here, since May of 2000, you 13 periodically destroyed all e-mails to and from Mr. Prince, 14 yourself, Mr. Minton, Mr. Jacobsen, Mr. Bunker, and 15 Ms. Summers that came into LMT computers?" 16 Answer: "Correct." 17 Question: "You also did that since July, 18 obviously, right?" 19 Answer: "As I said, we have a policy --" 20 Question: "Yes." 21 Answer: "-- that we do not retain records." 22 Question: "Okay. The answer is yes, you 23 destroyed everything from May to the present, and you did 24 it periodically?" 25 Answer: "Yes. Shall I read my declaration into KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 893 Volume 7, 1 the record about it?" 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. Did you have such a policy? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And what was that policy? 6 A Well, our security person, whose name is Grady 7 Ward, instituted a policy with everybody, which he 8 communicated to them via several e-mails -- a whole 9 procedure that the people were supposed to follow to 10 maintain the security of their records. 11 Q And what did that have to do with destroying 12 records? 13 A Well -- 14 THE COURT: Well, deleting them. Are you 15 talking about e-mails now? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I am. 17 (The Court's judicial assistant, Mrs. Rudd, 18 entered the courtroom and spoke to the Court 19 off the record.) 20 THE COURT: Excuse me. 21 Give me just a second here. 22 For the information of the people -- I'm not 23 going to tell you who this is from, but this is 24 something from the person who apparently sent the 25 materials to me in the mail, who is most distressed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 894 Volume 7, 1 that I was going to give those up. But I must admit, 2 I'm wondering whose -- I mean -- 3 THE WITNESS: How does he know? 4 THE COURT: I don't know. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe you could do something 6 of a side bar, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Well, I really can't, because 8 this is somebody is that very frightened of my giving 9 this information to counsel and indicating that she's 10 got children and she's a sitting duck and on and on. 11 And I don't know what to do with it, to tell 12 you the truth. I just am not used to getting 13 something delivered to me in the middle of a hearing. 14 Obviously, my secretary must have thought it was 15 rather important, so I'm going to take just about five 16 minutes and reflect on it, and then I'll let you all 17 know what I'm going to do with it. 18 Anybody that's here, don't send me stuff 19 unless you want me to put it in the court file. 20 That's what I do with stuff. I don't do ex parte 21 stuff. If somebody sends me stuff, it goes in the 22 court file. 23 (A break was taken at 3:05 p.m. until 24 3:22 p.m.) 25 THE COURT: Okay. I think what -- I'll put KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 895 Volume 7, 1 this in an envelope, which I'll put it back in. The 2 fear of this person, apparently, was that this 3 certified -- I mean, it always amazes me, somebody 4 sends me certified mail -- which means, in other 5 words, they know that I've got it and now -- I don't 6 know what they thought I was going to do with it. 7 Somebody is going to come along years down the road 8 and say, "What did you do with that? I don't know 9 what you're talking about." 10 They paid $9 to have this delivered to me. 11 As I say, it is a -- it's talking about some gloating 12 Internet posts made on April 7th, transferred from 13 www.altreligion-.scientology.org to www.xenu.net. 14 It says: "While there's no way to know for 15 certain who made them," I could only have -- "it could 16 only have been by someone very close to the McPherson 17 case, with intimate knowledge of the behind-the-scenes 18 goings-on because they were posted prior to all this 19 being made public. Also enclosed are direct quotes 20 from L. Ron Hubbard. They speak for themselves. It 21 might be considered that the dictates are being 22 followed precisely." 23 And then it goes on: "He with the deepest 24 pocket" -- I don't know if I read this as carefully as 25 I'm reading it now -- "He with the deepest pockets and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 896 Volume 7, 1 most skilled lawyers and heavy-handed tactics 2 shouldn't necessarily win or lose. Justice will have 3 been served and the judicial system allowed to work as 4 it was designed and both sides are allowed to present 5 their case to twelve jurors" -- somebody doesn't know 6 the Florida system, obviously, very well -- "let the 7 chips fall where they may. Then only then will we 8 have all won." 9 And there's a quote here: "The truth is too 10 simple. It must always be arrived at through 11 complication. Blessings to you and your work and 12 life," unsigned. 13 And then there are some postings here, 14 page 1 of 40. Must have been a big night or 15 something. I don't know if that means there's 40 16 pages or what, but I've got 1 of 40 and 2 of 40. 17 And at the top it says: "Bob and Stacy in 18 court, true or," dot, dot, dot, dot. "Operation 19 Clambake forum, opinion and debate." 20 What is that? I don't even know what this 21 is. Is this what these postings are -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: -- that everybody keeps talking 24 about? I keep telling you all, maybe one of these 25 days you all ought to invite me to go to a couple of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 897 Volume 7, 1 these so I can look at them, because I don't go to 2 these places that have postings. 3 THE WITNESS: You don't want to. 4 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 5 Anyway, it appears there's inquiry being 6 made here as to whether or not Bob and Stacy have -- I 7 guess that being Mr. Minton and the lady right here 8 before us as we're talking about -- are going to go 9 in, and what is -- what is apparently of importance 10 that I read, the only thing that's seemingly 11 underlined -- and I believe this was the way I 12 received it: "Tomorrow morning Bob Minton will walk 13 into Wally Pope's office and suborn perjury by telling 14 all the lies Scientology asks him to" -- I don't know 15 what these little daggers, little caret marks -- "with 16 the anticipated result of bringing down the," caret 17 marks, "case." 18 So I guess that is what this was referring 19 to, that this must be somebody close to this. And 20 then there's a bunch of stuff -- I couldn't even tell 21 which side wrote this because -- 22 THE WITNESS: It's hard to tell. 23 THE COURT: It's hard to tell, because on 24 the other thing -- I mean, I suppose that somebody 25 telling the group that's listening that Bob and Stacy KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 898 Volume 7, 1 are going to try to ruin this case, but then I've got 2 some stuff that sounds like it come from a -- maybe, I 3 don't know -- the Church is going to acknowledge that 4 these were supporters. But -- 5 THE WITNESS: What's it say? 6 THE COURT: Well, it says: "Minton must be 7 in some deep shit. He's supposed to take the deal the 8 Church offered him. What a sucker. We always knew he 9 would roll over. How do you like your boy now? Why 10 don't you ask him" what he and Stacy -- "why he and 11 Stacy Brooks were meeting with Church officials until 12 wee hours of Sunday morning? Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha." 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. This was someone who 14 obviously was following us. 15 THE COURT: "Keep idolizing Minton, but how 16 will you rationalize --" 17 I mean, I don't know. But anyway, the deal 18 is, was when I said I was going to give this to you 19 all -- oh, the last page, I'm sorry, is Ron Hubbard in 20 his own words. And there's -- I wouldn't know what it 21 was, to tell you the truth, and I don't believe I read 22 it. There is something here underlined. I wouldn't 23 even know what it meant. "Branch 5 Project, Project 24 Swirl." Anyway. And then of course there's this 25 letter. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 899 Volume 7, 1 Now, of course, now I've got this, which 2 seems to say, "What in the hell are you thinking?" 3 And then it says: I'm the one that sent you the 4 Internet postings. I did it because" -- and the quote 5 from Ron Hubbard. "I did it because I thought it was 6 very revealing. If I were in your position, I would 7 have wanted that information." 8 Well, don't do me any favors, folks. I've 9 got all the information I could deal with. 10 And then it says: "Approximately ten days 11 ago, I had a recording of a blood-curdling, 12 terror-filled message left on my voice mail. I 13 received an e-mail with a message" -- I don't have any 14 idea what this means -- "PM exiting, and my computer 15 was" -- a word, I don't even know what it is -- "with 16 advertisements for life insurance. Unknown charges 17 have appeared on my credit card." 18 And then this next might be revealing to 19 this person if she identifies -- something personal 20 about her. She's a sitting duck. "And now you're 21 going to hand them my name" -- I wonder who "they" 22 are -- "my name and address. I'm the source of giving 23 you that info." 24 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I think 25 "them" -- she thinks Scientology is going to do KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 900 Volume 7, 1 something to hurt her. 2 THE COURT: "If ever there was a case of 3 directly feeding someone to the lions, that would be 4 it. You're the judge. Use good judgment." 5 And then I suppose this was this woman's 6 name. So I've got a name, apparently. I've got a 7 name on here, and I've got this $9.09 envelope that's 8 got an address. And then I've got somebody suggesting 9 that I'm going to be feeding this person to a lion's 10 den if I -- but in essence, that's what it is. 11 I've asked my secretary to take one of these 12 copies and go talk to somebody to see if what I've got 13 from this person, anybody would know -- I mean, I 14 don't want to -- if somebody doesn't understand it, 15 let it be clear. I mean, when you give a judge 16 something, the judge generally throws it in the 17 wastebasket, files it in the court file, or gives it 18 to the lawyer, depending on the case and what the 19 import of it is or what have you. 20 I brought this up only because I figured I 21 might start getting more of these, and I thought I 22 might want you all to tell me what you wanted me to 23 do, whether you wanted a copy, whether you wanted it 24 thrown in the court file, thrown in the wastebasket. 25 Any of this would have been okay with me. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 901 Volume 7, 1 But now that somebody suggests that if I 2 reveal this that somebody is going to be in harm's 3 way -- which I don't believe -- I'm not sure what it 4 is I should do. So I'm going to think about it 5 overnight, and maybe you all would think about it 6 overnight and give me some suggestions. 7 MR. FUGATE: Judge, obviously, if she's 8 looking to -- if I heard correctly what you read in 9 the handwritten note, that somebody was in the 10 courtroom and then left when they thought you were 11 going to reveal it. There's only one person that has 12 come and gone, and that was a blond woman, who I have 13 no idea who she was, sitting in the second row there. 14 And the only person that we saw her have contact with 15 was Mr. Jesse Prince, who was standing in the hallway. 16 So I can't tell you anything other than 17 that -- the old Florida circumstantial evidence 18 instruction -- I don't know what that means. But 19 that's what happened. I mean, obviously whoever gave 20 that to you was sitting in the courtroom and realized 21 you were going to give it up, wrote the letter and 22 took it to your J.A. 23 THE COURT: Well, it -- nonetheless, it's 24 somebody suggesting that if I give this up, they 25 can't -- as I said, it's "What in the hell are you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 902 Volume 7, 1 thinking of?" Well, I thought I was thinking like a 2 judge. 3 But I just -- I'm just going to tell you I'm 4 going to think about this overnight. I don't -- I 5 don't know that anybody really needs to know who that 6 was. Does anybody need to know who this person was? 7 MR. LIROT: We don't need to know anything, 8 Judge. 9 THE COURT: I mean, would that -- 10 MR. MOXON: Judge, we don't care who it was. 11 Our only concern is that there was an attempt to, you 12 know, influence the Court by somebody who has been 13 talking -- the woman that was talking to Mr. Lirot at 14 the last hearing and was talking to Mr. Prince in the 15 hallway. 16 THE COURT: Well, trust me. 17 MR. MOXON: I know that you wouldn't -- 18 THE COURT: And you know that -- 19 MR. MOXON: Of course not. 20 THE COURT: -- I get this stuff all the 21 time. When I used to be at criminal, I mean, I got 22 letters all the time: This guy needs to be put away, 23 up -- you know, hung from a tree. And this guy is a 24 wonderful fellow. 25 And I just didn't pay much attention to that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 903 Volume 7, 1 stuff. I just usually filed it in the court file. 2 But on death penalty cases, as I said, I would have to 3 try not to read them and put them in a box and try, if 4 I did hand them out -- and there's all kinds of 5 problems. 6 This is not a death penalty case. So, as I 7 said, I just was trying to get a feel for how we might 8 want to deal with it. But I don't want somebody to -- 9 they think they sent me something and now all of a 10 sudden I'm -- 11 MR. MOXON: Judge, we don't care. We don't 12 care. 13 THE COURT: You don't care, nobody cares. 14 Then the best thing to do is just to tell my secretary 15 to shred this. I'll file the original in the court 16 file without the envelope, throw this thing away, that 17 hand letter away. And assuming that there's nothing 18 in here that's identifying, I'll give you copies of 19 it. But as I said, I read it more fully in court 20 today than I ever read it. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, the only concern I have 22 Judge, and my first impulse I stated to the Court when 23 you read the first one was just throw them away. But 24 if it's someone who is providing the Court something 25 and attempting -- and I know that it won't -- to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 904 Volume 7, 1 influence your Honor and that someone is having 2 contact with Jesse Prince, I do have a problem with 3 that. But I don't know that there's anything we're 4 going to be able to do with it based on what you've 5 got right there. And that's my concern. 6 I mean, I think that we're all here to try 7 to get this hearing over with, and the less of this, 8 the more likely we are to get it over with. But I 9 don't want to have somebody think they can come in to 10 give things to the Court to influence the Court. And 11 I think both sides ought to be instructed fairly to 12 make sure that anybody on either side keeps that from 13 happening. 14 THE COURT: But, you know, it's real hard. 15 I mean, I understand why neither side -- I mean, I've 16 been involved in this court system for 20 years. 17 People send stuff to the judge. And naturally they're 18 trying to influence them. That's why they send it. I 19 mean, that's exactly why they've sent it. They've got 20 a position, and they want you to know it. 21 Judges just aren't influenced by stuff like 22 this. If we were, we couldn't ever sit on a case. We 23 get it all the time. If somebody knew that if we got 24 something we couldn't sit on a case, I guarantee you 25 the other side that didn't want us would be sending us KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 905 Volume 7, 1 stuff to get us off the case. So it isn't that big a 2 deal. But, yes, would both sides please instruct 3 their -- 4 MR. FUGATE: Gallery? 5 THE COURT: -- their folks that are -- their 6 supporters, for lack of a better word, that please 7 don't send me stuff. I mean, all I have to do is -- I 8 will file it in the court file, I will hand it out to 9 the lawyers, or I will throw it in the wastebasket, 10 depending on what the lawyers tell me they want me to 11 do in this case. And if they don't want that to 12 happen, then they really ought not to send it. 13 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR. LIROT: Judge, just for the record, in 16 light of what Mr. Moxon said, I was never asked about 17 anything. I've never told anybody to send anything to 18 the Court. And if anybody did ask me, I would tell 19 them absolutely under no uncertain circumstances -- 20 THE COURT: I have no doubt that that is 21 true, and I have no doubt that that is true for all 22 the lawyers that appear in front of me on this case. 23 But I'm just telling you that sometimes people -- 24 obviously, somebody in court didn't know that. 25 And so do I think they were trying to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 906 Volume 7, 1 influence me? Maybe. I don't know what this means, 2 to tell you the truth. "Five years ago, Bob Minton 3 set out to destroy Scientology by funding the Lisa 4 McPherson case. Today he's made a pact with 5 Scientology to destroy the Lisa McPherson case to save 6 his own skin." 7 I mean, that kind of stuff isn't influential 8 to a judge. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this is 10 raging on the Internet. 11 THE COURT: Is it? 12 THE WITNESS: This whole attitude, this 13 fervent belief that Mr. Minton and I are both under 14 some sort of threat of death by Scientology and that 15 that's why we're doing this. 16 And there are a lot of people who think they 17 are really doing us a big favor by posting things like 18 that on the Internet and, you know, saying that we're 19 lying and this whole thing. I mean, the feelings are 20 very, very high. You know, people are just raging 21 about this whole issue. 22 And what you're reading there is just one 23 example of literally hundreds of postings about 24 Mr. Minton and myself and our testimony and -- 25 THE COURT: Yes, there's some stuff in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 907 Volume 7, 1 these -- I'll give these to you that are fairly long. 2 There's vulgar stuff here. 3 THE WITNESS: Very vulgar. 4 THE COURT: Very vulgar stuff. As I said, 5 if anybody thinks that's influential, it really isn't. 6 But that -- I mean, I know you all wouldn't 7 occasion this stuff to be sent to the Court. People 8 that think I need to know things, I really don't. I 9 need to know what comes from a lawyer. 10 So the best you can, pass that onto anybody 11 that might -- and the rest of it I'll just deal with 12 at the time. 13 Okay. 14 MR. LIROT: Very good, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry that we had to have 16 that interruption, but . . . 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, I believe we left off at Exhibit 15L, 19 and I'm going to hand you what I've marked as Exhibit 15M. 20 This is the declaration of Stacy Brooks regarding records 21 retention and destruction. And it looks to be an exhibit 22 from -- it says Witness 1SB9-7-01LC, and it looks like 23 you've signed this under penalty of perjury. And that 24 looks to me to be a declaration that you prepared and 25 signed, or at least signed, about the policies of the Lisa KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 908 Volume 7, 1 McPherson Trust and document destruction. 2 What does that -- what does that paragraph say? 3 If you can, read the highlighted paragraph to the Court. 4 A "From its -- from its inception, the records 5 retention policy of the Lisa McPherson Trust has been to 6 minimize the number of records retained. Under that --" 7 THE COURT: Go slow. Remember my court 8 reporter here is doing realtime. 9 THE WITNESS: Sorry, sorry. 10 Did you get what I just said? 11 THE REPORTER: Yes. 12 A Okay. "Under that policy, all records, 13 correspondence -- correspondence, e-mails and Internet 14 postings are deleted or destroyed as soon as is practical 15 after their use has terminated, with the exception of 16 minimal archival records which are stored in digital form. 17 It is not possible to identify the records which have been 18 purged pursuant to the aforesaid policy. All records have 19 been dealt with according to that policy." 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q All right. Was that true? 22 A Yes. There -- that policy did exist. And, 23 unfortunately, everybody didn't adhere to the policy. 24 There were things that were still in the office. And the 25 special master has now gone through the whole office and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 909 Volume 7, 1 found -- I don't know what he's found, whatever he's found. 2 And also, he has the hard drives so he can -- you know, I'm 3 not really sure what there is to find, but I wouldn't be 4 surprised if there were documents and things on the 5 computers that he found that would be -- that would have 6 been responsive to whatever subpoena that was in response 7 to. 8 Q Okay. Now, the next paragraph is not 9 highlighted. And this one says: "No archival records 10 include statements of any person having knowledge of the 11 facts of the complaint or counterclaim in the case of 12 McPherson vs. Scientology. No archival records contain any 13 statement or information concerning the subject matters of 14 the aforesaid action. No archival records contain any 15 reference to any person designated as a witness in that 16 case or to any person who has knowledge of the facts of the 17 case, except a digital copy of Teresa Summers' privilege 18 records concerning" -- Marcus Quirino? Is that how you 19 pronounce his name? 20 A I would imagine. 21 Q Okay. "Are stored there, as are digital 22 duplicates of the statements of the Woodcraft family which 23 appear on the Lisa McPherson Trust Web site. Only Teresa 24 Summers has access to the records concerning Marcus 25 Quirino." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 910 Volume 7, 1 That wasn't highlighted at all. So all that I 2 would assume would be true in your declaration. Isn't that 3 correct? 4 A I think you have the wrong idea here. The things 5 that are highlighted aren't highlighted because they're 6 false. And I think we've gone through quite a number of 7 these highlighted excerpts -- 8 Q Okay. 9 A -- that I have testified clearly were true. 10 Q Okay. 11 A So I think you're misstating my testimony or 12 misstating something -- 13 Q Well -- 14 A -- to say that everything that's highlighted is a 15 lie. 16 Q That wasn't my statement. 17 A Well, that is I think what you said. 18 Q No. You testified that some of the things were 19 highlighted that were true. And I think at one of the 20 meetings certain things came up, and you had said, well, 21 not all of that was false. I think in testifying about 22 Mr. Rinder's discussions with you, he apparently brought 23 some things up. And you said, "Well, not everything you've 24 brought to my attention did I testify to falsely." 25 So I took it to be your description of these KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 911 Volume 7, 1 documents that these highlighted sections were sections 2 that were brought to your attention so that you could set 3 the record straight. And you don't know who highlighted 4 them, so I'm trying to find exactly what it is -- 5 A That's incorrect. 6 Q What's incorrect? 7 A If that's your understanding of what I've been 8 saying, your understanding is incorrect. 9 Q Correct me. What is it exactly that was 10 highlighted in these documents? 11 A Someone's idea about things that I might need to 12 correct. It didn't -- it certainly didn't mean that I 13 might not need to correct something else. 14 Q Okay. 15 A And I certainly didn't rely on only these 16 excerpts to determine what I needed to do. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I think it's important for you to understand that 19 when we finally went -- 20 And, your Honor, this is what -- this is what 21 these people that are making these postings on the Internet 22 cannot even wildly imagine could be true, what I'm about to 23 say. 24 By the time we went and spoke to Mr. Rinder on 25 Saturday, April 6th, we felt that Mr. Dandar had put us in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 912 Volume 7, 1 a very, very, very dangerous position. And we -- we felt 2 that we could no longer trust him at all. And we were 3 confronted with a landscape of players that was so surreal, 4 because on one side, we had people that we had been working 5 with that we now no longer trusted at all. And on the 6 other hand -- and on the other side, we had Scientology, 7 that we had spent years demonizing and not trusting at all. 8 And -- and suddenly we were in a position 9 where -- and Mr. Minton will probably testify about this, 10 but I will say for myself that I had the impression from 11 Mr. Minton that he found himself in a position where the 12 world had turned upside-down, and the person that he could 13 think of that he might possibly be able to trust in the 14 world was Mike Rinder. 15 And so when we went and spoke to him and when we 16 were working with him, this was not a matter of Mike Rinder 17 directing us in any way. I need for you to understand 18 that. You won't believe me. All these people that are 19 posting these things don't believe this. But all of these 20 people that are posting these things don't believe what 21 Mr. Dandar has been doing either. And if they believed 22 what Mr. Dandar has been doing, then they would understand 23 perhaps why we found ourselves in such a surreal situation. 24 And we went to Mr. Rinder, and he was extremely 25 uncomfortable about talking to us. He was not quite sure KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 913 Volume 7, 1 what to do. But we said to him -- and this is not a 2 quote -- but basically what we said -- and Mr. Minton. 3 Basically what Mr. Minton said was: 4 I need help, and I'm in -- I'm in a situation 5 where I'm facing another contempt hearing in three days. I 6 just escaped from a contempt hearing by the skin of my 7 teeth. Judge Schaeffer was going to put me in jail, and 8 I'm facing another judge that's even madder at me than 9 Judge Schaeffer has ever been. And I don't know what to 10 do, and I need help. And how do I get myself out of this 11 situation? You know, I need to set the record straight. 12 And he had by now spoken to his attorney, 13 Mr. Howie, and Mr. Jonas had spoken to him about this case, 14 and I'm not -- I'm not getting into any substantive 15 description of what was said between him and his attorneys. 16 But I can tell you this, that -- that he felt that there 17 was nowhere else to turn for help and that Mr. Dandar was 18 willing to -- and Mr. Dandar had said this many times -- 19 that Mr. Dandar was willing to let Mr. Minton go to jail 20 for the sake of this lawsuit. 21 And I was not in any way willing to let 22 Mr. Minton go to jail for the sake of this lawsuit. And I 23 don't think Mr. Dandar should have been willing to after 24 what Mr. Minton did to try to help the family. And -- and 25 Mr. Minton -- and again, he may testify differently -- but KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 914 Volume 7, 1 it was my feeling that Mr. Minton had gotten to the point 2 where if there was anybody in the world that he might be 3 able to trust to be -- to be -- to help him get out of the 4 situation that he felt Mr. Dandar had put him in, it would 5 be Mr. Rinder. 6 And I've got to tell you that that was the truth, 7 because we sat down with Mr. Rinder, and he was nothing but 8 courteous. He was nothing but -- as far as I know, 9 completely ethical about what would be acceptable in such a 10 situation for Judge Schaeffer or for Judge Baird. He was 11 very, I think, meticulous about that. 12 But he was willing to provide the documents that 13 we were asking for. We explained to him. He said, "Why 14 are you asking me?" 15 We said: "Who else are we suppose to ask? We 16 can't ask Mr. Dandar. That's for sure. We can't ask 17 Mr. Merrett. We can't even find him. You know, we've got 18 nobody on our side to help us get out of this mess. You 19 know, will you please help us?" 20 And that's what he did. So when you're talking 21 about this -- I understand that you need to impeach my 22 testimony, but you need to be straight on what exactly 23 happened here and what your partner's role in this was. 24 Q That's all I'm asking. 25 A Well, I -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 915 Volume 7, 1 Q I just want to find out -- 2 A -- want to clarify for you. 3 Q I appreciate that. 4 Okay. So you've gone over that and you've gone 5 over your declaration which we had as Exhibit M. 6 Exhibit N is a copy of the video -- or, 7 transcript of the videotaped deposition of Teresa Summers 8 of October 16th, 2001, consisting of page 1, page 52, and a 9 signature page. And apparently all this is, is asking 10 Ms. Summers about your document retrieval policies or -- 11 A Right. And she said no, we don't have them. 12 Q All right. And Exhibit O is a transcript of the 13 video deposition of Robert Peterson -- 14 A And he said no, we don't have one. 15 Q Fair enough. That's page 81, and he says no, you 16 don't have one. 17 Then there's the videotaped deposition of David 18 Cecere, Exhibit 15P. That's the cover page, 67, page 68, 19 and page 92, which appears to be the signature page. And 20 he asked about -- he was asked about any policy at LMT 21 concerning deleting Internet messages and a written policy. 22 He answered no. 23 Any orders to people that they must delete their 24 messages? 25 He answered no. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 916 Volume 7, 1 And he was asked if there was any policy about 2 shredding documents, and he answered no. 3 A Okay. Well, I think that if these people would 4 have been asked the question, "Have you ever received from 5 Grady Ward instructions on what to do about your documents 6 and your electronic documents, they would have answered 7 differently. Their understanding of what a policy is was 8 different from mine. 9 Q Okay. And Exhibit Q looks to be an order signed 10 by Judge Moody, I believe, on May 15th, 2000, which I -- 11 apparently is the order that the Lisa McPherson Trust shall 12 produce within ten days a person most knowledgeable to 13 testify to matters addressed in the court's ruling, et 14 cetera, and shall produce unedited videotapes in the 15 possession, custody, or control of the Lisa McPherson 16 Trust. And I think that one speaks for itself. 17 THE COURT: What are you doing? I mean, 18 Counsel -- 19 MR. LIROT: I'm just going -- Judge, I'm 20 just trying to go through all these documents. It 21 will make sense when I get to the end. 22 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 23 BY MR. LIROT: 24 Q Next is the May 18th, 2000 videotaped deposition 25 I believe of the Lisa McPherson Trust, which I assume to be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 917 Volume 7, 1 you. And this is Sub Exhibit R, May 18th. And this again 2 is obviously asking you again questions about all of these 3 videos and tapes and I guess the hard drives. This will 4 speak for itself. Is there anything else in that document 5 that comes to your attention? 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think that's Mr. Minton as 7 the representative, although I'm not positive. 8 THE WITNESS: Let me -- I think I'll be able 9 to recognize it pretty quickly. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Sorry. 11 THE COURT: It's all right. 12 THE WITNESS: That's Mr. Minton. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Okay. So did you go through the highlighted 15 sections of this exhibit? 16 A That's Mr. Minton's testimony. 17 Q All right. Well, apparently this was part of the 18 packet provided to you, so we'll leave it in there. Did 19 you review it to make sure that there was anything you were 20 concerned about? 21 A If it was provided to me, I think it was probably 22 done in error. 23 Q Fair enough. 24 A And when -- you know, I wasn't -- I wasn't 25 interested in recanting Mr. Minton's testimony. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 918 Volume 7, 1 Q Fair enough. Okay. The next one is 15S, it was 2 the order regarding videotapes of the Lisa McPherson Trust. 3 And apparently this is also an order signed by Judge Moody 4 on July 18th of 2000, ordering the production of any 5 unedited videos in the possession, custody, control of the 6 Lisa McPherson Trust of statements of any person presently 7 identified as a witness in this case. And it says, 8 "Mr. Minton shall further file a sworn statement that LMT, 9 Inc., searched their video files as to the entire witness 10 list of the parties and produced all segments of 11 statements --" 12 THE COURT: Counsel, slow down. I just know 13 that my court reporter is going crazy down there. 14 Slow down. We all do that when we can read. We read 15 real fast, but she's -- 16 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 17 THE COURT: Especially when she's doing 18 realtime. 19 MR. LIROT: Balancing these competing 20 interests, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q And I'll pick it up at the beginning of page 2, 24 "search their video files as to the entire witness list of 25 the parties and produce all segments of statements dealing KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 919 Volume 7, 1 with Lisa McPherson, the Lisa McPherson case, the 2 defendants, and Scientology." 3 What was the significance of that order being 4 attached to the packet delivered to you? 5 A Well, this was again having to do with whether or 6 not my compliance with the discovery had been, whatever you 7 call it, false or -- 8 Q Okay. Exhibit T is an order compelling document 9 production of Lisa McPherson Trust, Inc. It's signed by 10 Judge Quesada, apparently on November 20th of 2000. And 11 that looks to be pretty much identical to Judge Moody's 12 statement. 13 A Okay. 14 Q So that, again, your testimony would be that 15 that's attached -- 16 THE COURT: Whoa. You don't know that 17 that's identical or not. It's a different order. It 18 may or may not be identical. I don't know if it is or 19 it isn't. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, it has to do 21 with videotapes and documents. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 THE WITNESS: So that's probably why it 24 would have been included. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 920 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. And then Exhibit 15V, this appears to be 2 excerpts of your deposition, Ms. Brooks, of August 15th, 3 2001. And it has page 1 and then pages 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 4 124, 125, 127, 128, 129 -- 5 THE COURT: How many pages are there? 6 MR. LIROT: -- 130 -- 7 There's just a couple more, Judge. 8 -- 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, and then 149 is 9 the signature page. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, while he's -- I 11 didn't hear a U. Did you call it V or U? 12 MR. LIROT: This is U. Did I call it V? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, you called it V on the 14 record. So it's U. 15 MR. LIROT: Can't even read my own 16 handwriting. I apologize. 17 A So what is your -- 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q And then the questions in that deposition also 20 deal with documents, videotapes, hard drives, and those 21 types of issues, correct? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Do you want her to go through 23 all the papers? 24 MR. LIROT: She can. 25 A Do -- you want me to do what? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 921 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q Why don't you just take a look at that document 3 and make sure that you're aware of what it was that they 4 were providing that document for you to be aware of when 5 you asked for these documents. 6 A Okay. 7 Q All right. Would you agree that that deposition 8 testimony all centers on documents, Mr. Bunker's use of the 9 videotapes, and those issues? 10 A Well, it centers on the videotapes. 11 Q Okay. 12 THE COURT: Again, these are these 13 videotapes, and we don't even know what they are? 14 MR. LIROT: Apparently so, Judge. 15 THE WITNESS: This is unedited videotape 16 that had been ordered. 17 EXAMINATION 18 BY THE COURT: 19 Q Of maybe some pickets or -- 20 A Yes. Well, it hadn't been clarified. But 21 basically what happened was we were being very -- whatever, 22 recalcitrant about turning over anything. 23 Q That is true. 24 A And so -- 25 Q Like I said, I went through order after order KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 922 Volume 7, 1 after order. 2 A Yes. And so what finally Scientology said was, 3 "Look, we want -- just make them turn over the unedited 4 videotape," because -- you know, so that they -- I would 5 assume so that they could see what all there was and we 6 could stop -- and they could stop us from, you know, 7 saying, "Well, we only have edited stuff," blah, blah, 8 blah. 9 So then they made a request to the judge for the 10 unedited, raw footage so that they could look for 11 themselves. I think that's why they did it. 12 Q Well, what did it have to do with the Lisa 13 McPherson wrongful death case? 14 A Well, your Honor, I don't think it had much to do 15 with it, but -- but I never went through all the raw 16 footage, so I couldn't tell you that for sure. And I think 17 Scientology wanted to go through all the raw footage to see 18 if it did. 19 Q Okay. 20 A But that's the best of my understanding. 21 Q Were somehow some of these tapes taken and edited 22 for certain other things -- 23 A Yes. 24 Q -- is that it? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 923 Volume 7, 1 Q What were they used for? 2 A Well, for example, there were some videotapes 3 that were put up on our Web site that were -- maybe it was 4 an inner deal with someone. Or there were a couple of 5 videos that Mr. Bunker edited that one of them was sort of 6 a behind-the-scenes sort of a -- what do you call that 7 word, candid -- a candid video of me and Mr. Minton and 8 Mr. Prince and a number of other people just sitting around 9 and talking about various aspects of Scientology, that kind 10 of thing. And, you know, they wanted to see what else had 11 been said that he hadn't put in the edited version, I 12 think. 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q I guess the last thing in your packet was a 17 declaration of Michael Rinder, which was apparently signed 18 by Mr. Rinder or -- I don't know, it was signed by somebody 19 on October 24th, 1994. Is this the -- is this the 20 declaration -- and I guess you had a chance to review this, 21 and I'll hand it to you. 22 And this is Sub Exhibit V. Is that the 23 declaration that Mr. Rinder provided that inspired you to 24 write the responsive declaration of December 12th, 1994, 25 that we've already given to the Court? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 924 Volume 7, 1 A Okay. First of all, I don't think that this was 2 part of the package that I was given. I don't remember 3 being given this. 4 Q Okay. Well, it was given to me as -- 5 A Okay. 6 Q -- part of what was given to you. So -- I have 7 no idea. So if it wasn't, please tell me that. 8 A Well, I don't believe it was. I don't remember 9 having this turned over to me as -- 10 THE COURT: Well, assuming -- whether it was 11 or it wasn't, is that the -- I mean, your declaration 12 was in response, obviously, to a declaration of 13 Mr. Rinder. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is -- 15 THE COURT: And you've already testified 16 about that -- 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: -- and you indicated, where it 19 may be slanted in some regards, it was true. And your 20 declaration was saying, now, Mr. Rinder's declaration 21 was not true. 22 THE WITNESS: Right. 23 THE COURT: In part, that was what your 24 declaration was saying. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. This is the declaration KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 925 Volume 7, 1 that I was responding to. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Okay. Why don't you read paragraph 12 to that 4 declaration, whether you got it or not, since you've 5 already seen it. 6 A "Both of the Youngs readily agree that they could 7 easily set the record --" 8 THE COURT: Slow down for me. 9 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 10 A "Both of the Youngs readily agree that they could 11 easily set the record straight by writing new declarations 12 which would clarify the statements they had made 13 previously. Vaughn said that he did not want to write 14 anything that would be a direct contradiction to what he 15 had written earlier, but this was simply a matter of 16 interpreting things differently. He said he intended to 17 make his career as a writer and would need credibility in 18 order to obtain future jobs so wanted to do this properly." 19 Q Okay. And you don't remember if that was 20 provided to you or not in order to prepare these 21 affidavits? 22 A In fact, I -- in fact, I remember that it wasn't. 23 Q Okay. Fair enough. Now, since we've had an 24 opportunity to take a look at what was provided to you, I 25 think your testimony was that you had many meetings between KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 926 Volume 7, 1 April 9th and the 15th. And then subsequent to April 15th, 2 did you have any additional meetings with members of the 3 Church or their counsel relative to preparing the 4 affidavits that you filed in this case? 5 A I believe so. 6 Q Okay. Can you tell me when those may have been 7 after the 15th? 8 A Well, it would have been sometime after the 15th 9 and before the 29th, which was when I signed my -- 10 Q Okay. 11 A -- affidavit. I think Mr. Minton signed his 12 several days earlier. 13 Q Okay. Were there a couple of days after you were 14 given these materials to digest, or did you meet the very 15 next day on April 16th? Do you remember that? 16 A I don't recall. I believe I met with my attorney 17 the next day. 18 Q Okay. And then after having received these 19 documents, you prepared I believe -- and I know we've 20 already testified to this -- you prepared an affidavit 21 of -- affidavit recanting testimony of Stacy Brooks, which 22 apparently you signed on -- 23 A April 17th. 24 Q -- April 17th. So you had these documents, and 25 you had numerous meetings between the 9th and the 15th. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 927 Volume 7, 1 And then on the 17th, you provided -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. I just 3 object to "numerous meetings." I think she's 4 identified the meetings in past testimony. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. However many she 6 said. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q You had some meetings between the 9th and the 9 15th, and then you had some meetings after the 15th. And 10 then on the 17th, you filed your affidavit. Correct? 11 A I believe I said that on the 16th I met with my 12 attorney. 13 Q All right. And then you filed your affidavit. 14 Now, after this affidavit was filed, did you have any other 15 meetings to make sure that the affidavit was appropriate 16 for this global settlement that you were trying to 17 obtain -- 18 A No. 19 Q -- with the Church of Scientology? 20 A No. 21 THE COURT: The date of the 17th is the date 22 that this affidavit was signed, actually. I'm guilty 23 of the same thing. It's filed. This is a notice of 24 filing. It's signed by Mr. McGowan. That was 25 included. And Lord knows whether it was actually KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 928 Volume 7, 1 filed then or whether it was filed on the 19th. That 2 depends on when the clerk stamped it in. So -- but 3 we're talking about when she signed it on the 17th, 4 right? 5 MR. LIROT: That's correct, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Did -- after this was filed, did you have any 9 additional meetings? Did you send this affidavit to the 10 Church for approval? 11 A No. 12 Q Well, then why did you -- why did you have to 13 file the second affidavit? 14 A Because I wanted to. 15 Q All right. Well, you wanted to set the record 16 straight, and you had many meetings with -- whatever number 17 you testified to. And then you had a meeting with your 18 counsel, and then you filed one affidavit. So out of the 19 blue, you decided to file a second affidavit, which -- 20 A I didn't -- 21 Q Okay. 22 A -- say it was out of the blue at all. 23 Q All right. 24 A In fact, it wasn't out of the blue at all. 25 Q Well, why did you file the one and then file a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 929 Volume 7, 1 second affidavit after that? 2 A Well, as I recall, the first affidavit Mr. Howie 3 and Mr. McGowan both felt that we needed to get a 4 recantation -- a recantation affidavit filed with both 5 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird. And I believe that at 6 that time there was the possibility -- I don't remember 7 what the -- I believe that at that time there was some 8 question about what was going to go forward, whether Judge 9 Schaeffer -- whether we were going to be beginning a 10 hearing before Judge Schaeffer or beginning one before -- 11 or continuing one before Judge Baird. 12 But I think there was some question about what 13 was going to be happening next, and our attorneys felt that 14 it was important to let the courts see and know that we 15 were trying to cooperate with the court and that we were 16 acting in good faith and working with our attorneys to 17 correct our testimony. 18 Q Couldn't you just have been called as a witness? 19 THE COURT: Counselor, let's not be naive 20 here. I know what their lawyers were thinking. The 21 lawyers were thinking that somebody might move before 22 they moved, in which case they wouldn't recant; it 23 would be too late. They would be charged with 24 perjury, a third-degree felony. I suspect; I don't 25 know that. But that's, if I were a lawyer, what I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 930 Volume 7, 1 would be thinking. We'd better get something in 2 there. 3 THE WITNESS: I believe that's basically 4 correct. 5 THE COURT: Yes. They said we need to just 6 get something filed, and then we'll go back and 7 work -- maybe I'm putting words in your mouth. But 8 that's what good criminal defense lawyers do. I guess 9 maybe these civil lawyers know the same -- pretty 10 smart too. 11 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q And -- 14 THE COURT: Maybe they called a criminal 15 lawyer. I don't know. But the deal is you've got to 16 get going before somebody comes after you. For all 17 they knew Mr. McCabe might come up pounding or I might 18 start some proceeding, in which case it's too late. 19 You can't recant. 20 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. Now -- 21 THE COURT: Right? Mr. Fugate, you're a 22 criminal lawyer. Isn't that right? 23 MR. FUGATE: Well, that's right, and that's 24 what I understand was happening, so . . . 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 931 Volume 7, 1 Q Now, just to go back to all the materials now, 2 most of those materials -- 3 THE COURT: By the way, I'm not suggesting 4 you can't explore the fact, and maybe it's true, that 5 what you're suggesting I guess is if somebody said, 6 "This isn't good enough, you've got to write a better 7 one, we want you to write a better one," not 8 suggesting you can't explore that. But I certainly 9 know, and you would know, why the lawyers would want 10 it filed as quickly as possible. 11 MR. LIROT: I understand, your Honor. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Look at those -- most of the documents that you 14 were provided just don't have anything to do with 15 Mr. Dandar, do they? I mean, if you look at exhibits -- 16 from Exhibit K, I guess, is where they talk about the 17 Merrett files, documents of destruction, the videotapes. 18 Mr. Dandar had no idea what was on any of those videos, did 19 he? 20 A Yes. 21 Q He did? 22 A As far as I knew, he did. 23 Q How would he know? 24 A Well, he was there for some of it. He was on 25 some of the videotape -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 932 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. Well -- 2 A -- for example. 3 Q All right. What difference would that make to 4 this wrongful death case? 5 A I -- are you asking me what was in his mind? I 6 don't know what was in his mind. 7 Q If Mr. Dandar appears in public at a vigil or 8 anything else that he might be on, what difference would 9 that have in the wrongful death case? 10 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that as 11 testimony again. That's not been established in the 12 record that that's what the videos are of. 13 THE COURT: Assuming that's what's on the 14 video I guess is what he's saying. 15 THE WITNESS: Well, I can answer that. 16 THE COURT: It might annoy the lawyer -- it 17 might annoy the judge if the lawyer in the case was 18 out involved in what might perceived as a picket. 19 THE WITNESS: Exactly, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: But it was too late, because the 21 judge had already seen pictures. 22 THE WITNESS: But Mr. Dandar didn't want it 23 to go any further. He certainly didn't want to have 24 the courts provided with any further footage of him 25 being involved, because -- I think this has been KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 933 Volume 7, 1 covered pretty extensively from other aspects of this 2 situation. But there came a point in time where -- 3 which was towards the end of -- which really began in 4 earnest towards the end of 2000 where -- where 5 Mr. Dandar wanted to do everything possible to make it 6 appear that there was no connection between Mr. Minton 7 and the case, the LMT and the case, any of us and him. 8 He was trying to distance himself from all of us as 9 much as he possibly could. He didn't want there to be 10 any connection. He didn't want the courts to see that 11 there was any kind of connection whatsoever. 12 So, you know, obviously being on a videotape 13 with all of us unsavory characters, as he came to 14 feel, would not be good for him or his case. 15 Q How -- how many videotapes are we talking about 16 in total? 17 MR. FUGATE: In the LMT or Mr. Dandar's? 18 A I believe there's several -- I believe there's -- 19 maybe several hundred. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Okay. How many of those do you know Mr. Dandar 22 was on? 23 A Oh. Maybe 15 or 20, maybe 25. 24 Q Okay. And how about the hard drives? Is there 25 any way Mr. Dandar would know what you guys at the LMT had KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 934 Volume 7, 1 on your hard drives on your computer? 2 A Only if there was any e-mail from him or anything 3 like that. Again, the issue for Mr. Dandar was only to be 4 separate from us and only to distance himself from us. It 5 was -- it would have been the same situation in any -- in 6 any of these things. 7 Q Didn't he suggest that you guys should just turn 8 over all of this stuff? 9 A No. I don't remember that. 10 Q Well, he wasn't around when Mr. Merrett told you 11 to leave the stuff in the hall, was he? 12 A No, he wasn't there that day. 13 Q And as far as all the documents and whatever else 14 disappeared, you have no -- you have no independent 15 knowledge if any of this stuff went to Mr. Dandar, do you? 16 A What? 17 Q Well, apparently there's a lot of things missing 18 here that apparently Mr. Merrett has. You don't have any 19 knowledge that Mr. Dandar has any of that material, do you? 20 A No. 21 THE COURT: I don't even know that she said 22 Mr. Merrett had it. Her testimony, I thought, was 23 that Mr. Merrett said -- maybe -- maybe I read this -- 24 "Leave it in the hallway," and then it was gone. So I 25 don't know that Mr. Merrett has it. I suspect KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 935 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Merrett is going to tell us he doesn't. Now the 2 witness thinks Mr. Merrett will tell us he does. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, I can see your point. 4 THE COURT: Good. 5 MR. LIROT: Okay. 6 THE COURT: He'll want to appear in front of 7 me by phone. I can see why. I mean, you can't as a 8 lawyer tell your client that's been ordered to bring 9 something to -- by a judge to bring something, to 10 leave it out in the hallway and it'll be gone, you 11 won't have to worry about it. That would cause a 12 lawyer to be in serious trouble. 13 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I can only 14 tell you that it's a very good experience for me to be 15 represented by Mr. McGowan. 16 THE COURT: Well, good. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, as far as the -- was it Mr. Dandar that 19 helped you contact Mr. McGowan? Was he the introduction 20 between and you Mr. McGowan? 21 A Yes, originally when he wanted Mr. McGowan to 22 take on Jesse Prince's lawsuit against Scientology. 23 Q Okay. 24 THE COURT: Oh, my Lord, is there another 25 suit? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 936 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Good. I hope it's not in my 3 court. 4 THE WITNESS: Mr. McGowan didn't take it. 5 THE COURT: No offense, guys, but one is 6 just all one judge can handle. My office wouldn't 7 handle any more than one. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Now, we've gone through the documents, and 10 apparently you're familiar with what it was that you wanted 11 to say in these affidavits. Why do we have so many 12 meetings? 13 A There was a lot to talk about. 14 Q Okay. And were you being told what to put in 15 your affidavit? 16 A No. 17 Q Well, why is there so much to talk about? 18 A We had a lot to say. A lot had happened. We 19 felt really bad about what had happened. We were very glad 20 to have somebody to talk to about it. We were working with 21 our attorneys. Mr. Howie had provided a written -- what do 22 you call it? You know, he had put it in writing that it 23 was okay for us to have these meetings, and we were keeping 24 him informed and Mr. McGowan that it was happening. And it 25 wasn't any secret -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 937 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Tell me about that. Mr. Howie 2 had put it in writing that it was okay for you all to 3 have these meetings. Tell me about that. 4 THE WITNESS: Well, the day of -- I believe 5 it was on the day of your hearing -- 6 THE COURT: The 5th -- 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, and I remember it 8 because -- because Mr. Jonas wasn't able to come down 9 for your hearing. He was going to go -- come down for 10 Judge Baird's hearing, but he wasn't able to come down 11 for yours. And so -- and Mr. Jonas at that time was 12 the only attorney who was involved in the -- well, he 13 was -- he was the attorney that had been there for the 14 March 28th to March 29th meeting. And so I believe 15 Mr. Minton had told Mr. Howie that he wanted to meet 16 with Mr. Rinder, and -- 17 THE COURT: Without a lawyer. 18 THE WITNESS: Well, and that Mr. Jonas 19 wasn't going to be there that weekend. And so I think 20 the reason for it was that Mr. Howie was basically, 21 you know, saying that that would be okay. And then 22 Mr. Howie was on the phone with Mr. Minton -- well, 23 several times over that weekend, as I recall as well. 24 I don't have a copy of that -- 25 THE COURT: Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 938 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: -- but I believe that 2 happened. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q Well, let me ask you again about this other stack 5 of documents that was apparently provided to you and 6 Mr. Minton when Mr. Prince was with you. You were at a 7 hotel either on the beach or somewhere in Clearwater? 8 A Actually, Mr. Lirot, I don't believe that any 9 documents ever arrived while Mr. Prince was there. I 10 believe that some documents arrived before he got there at 11 Mr. Minton's request -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- in preparation for Mr. Minton's speaking to 14 Mr. Prince. 15 Q What -- what documents were delivered to 16 Mr. Minton prior to Mr. Prince arriving in preparation for 17 Mr. Minton speaking to Mr. Prince? 18 A Mr. Minton was very concerned -- well, if I could 19 just back up briefly. Mr. Prince had told us that on the 20 day of Judge Baird's hearing on Tuesday, April 9th, he came 21 into the courtroom briefly and he wasn't -- he wasn't aware 22 of the agreement that Mr. Minton had made to recant his 23 testimony in return for a withdrawal of Scientology's 24 motion for contempt -- 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I'm all confused. I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 939 Volume 7, 1 thought this question had something to do with some 2 stack of documents. 3 THE WITNESS: It does. 4 THE COURT: You're going to get there for 5 me? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 A And Mr. Prince apparently came into the courtroom 11 and heard Mr. Minton testifying and thought that he was 12 about to be put in jail. And Mr. Prince told us later that 13 he was so upset about that that he took an overdose of 14 Vistaril and drank a fifth of vodka and tried to kill 15 himself. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Mr. Minton did or Mr. Prince did? 18 A Mr. Prince. And he told us this I believe on 19 Friday night when he came to see us at our hotel when we 20 were staying at the Adam's Mark on Clearwater Beach. 21 Q If Tuesday is the 9th, Thursday -- 22 A We didn't see him until Friday. 23 Q You saw him Friday the 13th? 24 A Yes. And I believe that was the first time we 25 had seen him since the hearing on Tuesday. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 940 Volume 7, 1 Q This is Friday the 12th, I'm sorry. 2 A Okay. And when we saw him on Friday, he was very 3 intoxicated, but we had dinner with him in the restaurant. 4 We had a good -- 5 THE COURT: I'm sorry, let me just talk to 6 you for just a minute. Naturally, I've seen these 7 affidavits flying back and forth. This is the only 8 time that you saw Mr. Prince between your hearing in 9 front of Judge Baird and this intoxicated episode, 10 just this one time? 11 THE WITNESS: No, no -- well, there were -- 12 there were -- there was another incident on Sunday, 13 after this Friday. 14 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: This is -- all right. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. And Sunday is what he's 18 asking me about, so I'm just trying to lead up to 19 that. 20 A But we had a good conversation on Friday night, 21 we -- Mr. Minton and I felt that we had. We felt that -- 22 well, Mr. Prince said that he was very happy that we 23 were -- that we had initiated settlement talks with 24 Scientology, that he really wanted to be a part of that 25 settlement, that -- that he didn't want to have anything KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 941 Volume 7, 1 more to do with this litigation, and he was -- what he was 2 saying that night -- and this is what he had said for 3 months prior to this too -- was that he wanted to work with 4 us to bring that about. And we told him that we were -- 5 well, actually, we didn't tell him that night. 6 Then on Sunday, we saw Mr. Prince again. Now -- 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Well, let me ask you -- 9 A This is where the documents came up. 10 Q Let me slow you down a little bit. So Friday 11 Mr. Prince comes up, and he tells you that he's so 12 disappointed with whatever happened, what he heard 13 Mr. Minton testify to in front of Judge Baird on the 9th, 14 that he left to go kill himself? Is that your testimony? 15 A He may have -- he may have told me that over the 16 telephone. 17 Q Okay. 18 A I believe we made reference to it on Friday, but 19 I believe he had already told us that. 20 Q All right. And your testimony was that -- 21 A And it wasn't that he was so disappointed. He 22 was frightened for Mr. Minton, is what he said to us. 23 Q He was frightened for Mr. Minton -- 24 A Yes. 25 Q -- or Mr. Prince was frightened he would go to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 942 Volume 7, 1 jail? 2 A What he -- the impression I got was that he was 3 frightened for Mr. Minton. 4 Q Okay. So Mr. Minton's recanting his earlier 5 testimony in the hearing in front of Judge Baird, and he 6 cares so much for Mr. Minton that he leaves in the middle 7 of the hearing, before the end of the hearing? 8 A Yes, he left before the middle. He didn't stay 9 very long. 10 Q And it depressed him to the point where he 11 subsequently made a phone call to you or communicated with 12 you in some fashion saying that "I was so depressed with 13 what I heard that I decided to take an overdose." I don't 14 know what you referred to, some pharmaceutical drug or 15 something like that? 16 A Yes. I believe it's an antianxiety medication, 17 if I'm not mistaken. 18 Q And he mixed that with a quart of vodka? A 19 fifth? I'm sorry. 20 A Well, what he said, I mean, his girlfriend has a 21 prescription for Vistaril. He said he took her Vistaril, 22 took enough pills that he thought that if he also drank it 23 with a fifth of vodka, it would kill him. That's what he 24 told me. 25 Q Okay. And that would have been that Tuesday, and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 943 Volume 7, 1 then did you hear from him between that Tuesday and the 2 Friday that he met with you at the hotel? 3 A I'm not sure I heard from him again until after 4 Wednesday, and I spoke to him on the phone. And that's 5 when he told me what had happened -- 6 Q Okay. 7 A -- and how upset he had been at what he thought 8 he was looking at. So I spent quite a bit of time with him 9 on the telephone explaining to him that he was mistaken 10 about that, that in fact Mr. Minton was -- was stepping 11 forward to correct his testimony in return for 12 Scientology's withdrawing their motion for contempt. 13 And when I spoke to Jesse about it on the phone 14 either Wednesday or Thursday -- I think it was Wednesday -- 15 he was very, very happy about that. He was very relieved 16 and -- or at least he acted like he was. 17 And then on Friday, as I said, we had a good talk 18 with him. He was a little -- he wasn't acting like 19 himself, we didn't feel. And he was -- he was obviously 20 either on some medication or had been drinking and seemed a 21 bit fragile. So we had a talk with him. We told him about 22 what we were doing. 23 As I said, he was very happy. Actually, what he 24 specifically said was, "Well, I'm really glad about what 25 you're doing, because I choose life." That was his KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 944 Volume 7, 1 statement, "I choose life." And what I understood him to 2 mean by that was he wanted his life back. He didn't want 3 to be involved in this litigation any longer. 4 And so -- so we were very hopeful about that. 5 Jesse was a very good friend of both of ours, and we 6 knew -- I was aware of the fact that Jesse had quite a bit 7 of false testimony, because I had sat in at least two of 8 his depositions, that I knew -- although I hadn't reviewed 9 his testimony, I knew from my memory that -- that Jesse had 10 some things that he needed to correct as well. 11 So Mr. Minton, I believe, asked for the hearing 12 before Judge Schaeffer where Judge Schaeffer had -- because 13 Mr. Dandar had told us about this -- where Judge Schaeffer 14 had -- I'm not sure exactly what she said, but the 15 impression we had from what Mr. Dandar had told us was that 16 Judge Schaeffer had said that Mr. Prince's credibility was 17 questionable because of his bias and that she didn't 18 believe that he was so afraid of Scientology that that was 19 how come he had withdrawn or -- anyway. 20 And then she had said -- well, at least what 21 Mr. Dandar had said was that Judge Schaeffer had said that 22 she couldn't imagine why Mr. Dandar would want Jesse Prince 23 as his expert, but if he did, she would certainly help him 24 with that in some way or whatever, and if she had to put 25 him in jail to keep him here for his testimony, she would. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 945 Volume 7, 1 Anyway, something like that. That's what Mr. Dandar had 2 said to Mr. Minton. 3 THE COURT: I remember. That's all 4 accurate, except I don't remember saying I would put 5 him in jail. But I think Mr. Dandar reflected what I 6 said pretty well. 7 THE WITNESS: Well, I'll tell you, your 8 Honor, we really had the feeling that you were going 9 to put all of us in jail. 10 THE COURT: Well, I found out where the six 11 years came from. That was about the first time I met 12 you all. And I was real annoyed because Mr. Minton 13 wasn't showing up for a deposition, and you all wanted 14 sanctions. And I said: You all don't know how I 15 play. This is how I play. I'm not going to find 16 somebody who could pay the money. You know, as far as 17 I'm concerned, we'll put him in jail and if he wants 18 to stay there for six years, it wouldn't matter to me. 19 THE WITNESS: There you go. I knew you said 20 that. 21 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Minton always appeared 22 at depositions, I guess, because nobody asked me to 23 put him in jail for that except for one unsworn 24 contempt. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 946 Volume 7, 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q See, I think you testified -- 3 THE COURT: I don't recall that he didn't 4 show up at a deposition. I recall other things. 5 MR. FUGATE: The deposition he didn't show 6 up to was in front of Judge Baird, I think is what -- 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, not in front of you. 9 THE COURT: Right. As I said, he must have 10 taken heed for that. 11 THE WITNESS: Oh, he did. He did. That's 12 why we're here. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q So -- 15 A So Mr. Minton asked -- I believe Mr. Rinder, I 16 assume it was Mr. Rinder -- if he could get a copy of that 17 transcript. And -- 18 Q This is all on Friday the 12th? 19 A No, no, no. This is Sunday. 20 Q Well -- 21 A This is Sunday, because Jesse was going to come 22 back over. Jesse had called and said that he wanted to 23 come over and see us on Sunday. And we were really glad, 24 you know, come over and have dinner or whatever. 25 Q So that's Sunday the 14th. Well, on the 13th he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 947 Volume 7, 1 meets with you at the hotel? 2 A No, on Friday. 3 Q On Friday the 12th, correct. And he meets with 4 you. And were you in the restaurant at the time, or did 5 he -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q -- come up to your room? 8 A I believe at that -- on Friday -- I met them both 9 downstairs, as I recall. Actually, I may have been -- I 10 may have joined them -- I think I may have arrived at the 11 hotel and joined them downstairs, so I don't know -- 12 Q Okay. When you say that, was it Jesse and his 13 girlfriend and Mr. Minton? 14 A Unh-unh (negative). 15 Q Or just Jesse and Mr. Minton? 16 A Just Mr. Prince and Mr. Minton. 17 Q Okay. So they were already downstairs either in 18 the restaurant or someplace else, not in the room? 19 A Right, right. We met in the bar. They were just 20 waiting for me to go in to dinner. 21 Q Okay. And apparently this was -- Jesse is 22 already aware that Mr. Minton is taking a certain change of 23 position relative to the Church. And then -- 24 THE COURT: He knew that on the 9th when he 25 was in court. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 948 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: Exactly, Judge. 2 THE WITNESS: He knew that before. 3 THE COURT: Well, he certainly knew it as of 4 that night. 5 THE WITNESS: For sure, but he had known it 6 for months, your Honor. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q Well, how did he know about it for months? 9 A Well, not -- I should say for a couple of months. 10 Because he knew that we were initiating settlement. 11 Q How did he know? 12 A I had told him. I think Mr. Minton had also told 13 him. He was very excited. He was happy. He said great. 14 You know, he wanted to -- this is what he told us. He 15 wanted to be a music manager, he didn't want to do this 16 litigation anymore, he wanted his life back. And he said 17 many, many times to Mr. Minton that he was really glad that 18 this was happening. 19 Q When did you first start to talk to him about 20 this issue? 21 A Probably in -- somewhere in the middle of 2001. 22 Q So you're saying about June 2001, you were 23 already telling Mr. Prince that you had decided that you 24 were going to set the record straight and try to get 25 yourself extricated from all of this litigation? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 949 Volume 7, 1 A No. In at least August of 2001, I was telling 2 Mr. Prince that I thought the wrongful death case was badly 3 off the rails, that it was endangering Mr. Minton. I 4 didn't talk to him about why, but I told him -- I told him 5 that I wanted to contact Ms. Liebreich and -- 6 THE COURT: Ms. who? 7 THE WITNESS: Ms. Liebreich, the -- 8 THE COURT: Oh, yes, okay. Yes. 9 A So Mr. Prince was aware. And Mr. Prince was also 10 saying to me and to Mr. Minton as early as August 2001 that 11 he also didn't want anything to do with the wrongful death, 12 he didn't want anything to do with Ken Dandar, he was very 13 upset with Ken Dandar for the affidavit that Mr. Dandar had 14 Jesse sign after -- in order to -- because Mr. Dandar 15 wanted to file the severe sanctions motion. He was 16 extremely upset about what Mr. Dandar had done at that 17 time. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q Okay. So at least he knows that you certainly 20 changed your position as of the middle of 2001 and now he 21 shows up and it's April -- April 9th, and he hears 22 Mr. Minton testifying and gets so depressed that he leaves. 23 Then on Friday, April 12th, he comes to the hotel, meets 24 Mr. Minton. You arrive. What was discussed then? 25 A Well, as I just said, we told him that we were -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 950 Volume 7, 1 we wanted to extricate ourselves from the situation that we 2 had gotten ourselves into. Jesse was very glad. He wanted 3 us to talk to him about it. We told him -- excuse me -- we 4 told him that -- and we were a little bit gentle about 5 this, but we told him that it was, you know -- that 6 settlement couldn't occur until the record was set 7 straight. 8 And I say we were a little bit gentle about this 9 because we felt that it had been -- well, it had been a 10 very, very difficult thing for Mr. Minton and myself to 11 come forward and basically put ourselves at the mercy of 12 these two courts in order to set the record straight. And 13 based on the difficulty that we had had -- 14 THE COURT: I'm sure your lawyers told you 15 that at least I as a judge, and I'm sure Judge Baird, 16 somebody is going to have to relay this information of 17 all these criminal accusations going back and forth to 18 the state attorney's office. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: That certainly must be done. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 22 A And we were not sure and I'm still not sure what 23 would become of us for having done this, but -- but we felt 24 that the alternative to coming forward and setting the 25 record straight was a whole lot worse. And so we felt that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 951 Volume 7, 1 we really didn't have a choice but to do what we were 2 doing. And so -- 3 Q Well -- and I guess my question would be then, 4 you told Jesse to meet you again on Sunday and that you 5 would have the statements made by Judge Schaeffer about his 6 credibility? What happened? 7 A No, Mr. Lirot, that's not what I said. 8 Q I don't know. I'm asking the question. You 9 haven't testified to that yet. 10 A Yes, I did. Yes, I did, but I'll say it again. 11 So we were -- as I was -- just to finish my last sentence, 12 we were a little bit gentle about all of this with 13 Mr. Prince because we knew or we had reason to believe that 14 it was going to be an even more difficult reversal, 15 basically, for him. 16 And so we were being a little bit gentle about 17 it, and plus the fact that he still seemed to be not fully 18 recovered from what seemed to have been a fairly serious 19 breakdown of some sort from what he had described on 20 Tuesday, and also what his girlfriend had described. 21 So -- 22 Q Well, who was paying Mr. Prince at this time? 23 A Mr. Minton. 24 Q Still paying him up through April 12th? 25 A April 4th -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 952 Volume 7, 1 Q April 4th. 2 A -- was the last check, and I actually wrote a 3 check to Dee, his girlfriend, for $588, I think, the day 4 of -- at testimony of -- or, the day of -- one of the days 5 before Judge Baird in his hearing. 6 Q Sometime before -- 7 A So that was even more recent. 8 Q -- the 9th? 9 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry? 10 THE WITNESS: I said so that was even more 11 recent. 12 MR. FUGATE: I object to the interruption, 13 because I didn't hear. 14 THE COURT: I didn't either. I'm sorry, 15 wait till -- I think she wasn't quite done. 16 A What I said was that payment to her was even more 17 recent to her than April 4th. So -- so we felt that it was 18 important for Mr. Prince to understand how the Court felt 19 about his credibility and that perhaps if he understood how 20 the Court viewed his testimony that it might be a good sort 21 of an introduction for us to be able to talk to him about 22 the process of recantation. And that was the reason 23 Mr. Minton wanted to have that transcript of Judge 24 Schaeffer's -- I believe it was March 8th -- 25 THE COURT: I don't know. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 953 Volume 7, 1 A -- hearing. 2 THE COURT: It was the hearing on the severe 3 sanctions, probably, that was heard. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, exactly. 5 A So what we had in mind was that -- because Jesse 6 had said that he wanted to come and see us. And we had 7 said that we wanted to see him, we were good friends, we 8 were glad that he wanted to see us. We suggested that we 9 have dinner together on Sunday. 10 And I believe that the package was delivered in 11 the afternoon when we were -- before Mr. Prince got there. 12 But in any case, that was the reason -- 13 THE COURT: Ah, we're back now, this is 14 where the question started, the package. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, yes. 16 THE COURT: This is the package you got. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 MR. LIROT: So -- 20 THE COURT: Don't just go on. I want to 21 hear about it now. So the documents came. 22 THE WITNESS: So the documents came. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 A And so that was what it was. It was -- it was 25 Judge Baird -- I mean, Judge Schaeffer saying these things KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 954 Volume 7, 1 about Mr. Prince. And -- 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Well, wait a minute, I'm truly confused here. 4 We're talking about -- 5 THE COURT: Oh, my God, I hope we're not 6 going to have it all repeated. 7 MR. LIROT: No, no, no. 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q On Friday the 12th -- 10 THE WITNESS: I promise I won't. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Friday the 12th, you have no documents. So is 14 this Sunday that these documents are provided to you? 15 A Yes -- 16 Q Okay. 17 A -- the transcript of that hearing. 18 Q All right. Were there any other documents sent 19 over to Mr. Minton that he had that he pointed out to 20 Mr. Prince on Friday the 12th? 21 A Not that I know of. The -- 22 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, I object to that. 23 There's nothing in the record that documents were sent 24 over on the 12th. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, sorry. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 955 Volume 7, 1 MR. FUGATE: I think she's talking about 2 Sunday the 14th. 3 THE COURT: Right. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Okay. Let me ask you this. You got your 6 documents on the 15th from Mr. Fugate. When did Mr. Minton 7 get his records? Because I believe your testimony was he 8 got his records sometime before that. 9 A I believe that wasn't my testimony. I believe my 10 testimony was pretty clear, several times, that he -- very 11 many times -- that he got his documents the same day I got 12 mine from Mr. McGowan, when Mr. McGowan was with me. I was 13 given some documents, and Mr. Minton was given some 14 documents on that day. 15 The document that he was given or provided with 16 on Sunday the 14th had nothing to do with anything except 17 getting ready to try to talk to Jesse about what he was 18 going to have to do to recant. 19 Q So -- 20 A And -- 21 Q And who delivered these documents? 22 A I'm not sure. 23 Q Well, who did you ask to have them delivered to 24 you from? 25 A I believe he asked Mr. Rinder. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 956 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. 2 A And I believe someone just left it at the desk. 3 But now we were at the Radisson Hotel. 4 Q Okay. 5 A And I believe somebody just left it at the desk. 6 But anyway, so Jesse came. 7 Q Is it safe to say somebody from the Church? 8 A I would assume. 9 Q You asked Mr. Rinder -- 10 A I would assume. 11 Q Either somebody from the Church or some courier 12 service brings you over some documents, but it's at the 13 behest of Mr. Rinder? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. So -- 16 THE COURT: At the behest of Mr. Rinder? 17 THE WITNESS: Well, at Mr. Minton's behest 18 of Mr. Rinder, who then must have behested someone 19 else. 20 MR. LIROT: It's a repeat behest. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I got it. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q All right. So did Mr. Minton pick these 24 documents up, or did he wait until Jesse got there and then 25 you all walked over to the desk and got them? Did he have KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 957 Volume 7, 1 them before Jesse arrived? 2 A As I recall, they were in the room. That's my 3 recollection. 4 Q Okay. So you're downstairs, you arrived, 5 Mr. Prince -- 6 A No, no, no. No. No, no, no, no. That was 7 Friday. 8 Q Okay. 9 A Okay. On Sunday, we had moved over to the 10 Radisson, and we were in Room 503. If you saw the posting 11 on the Internet that said where we were staying and our 12 room number, Jesse got it wrong. 13 THE COURT: He probably didn't go to the 14 Internet. I don't go to the Internet; he doesn't go 15 to the Internet. I guarantee you, probably most of 16 us -- probably nobody goes to the Internet. 17 A Well, Mr. Prince went back and informed 18 Mr. Dandar's people where we were staying and had it posted 19 on the Internet. 20 THE COURT: Well, I'm not going to attribute 21 that to Mr. Dandar. I think that there are some folks 22 here that are fairly -- what should we call them? I 23 don't know, whatever I would say. But anyway -- 24 MR. LIROT: Renegades. 25 THE COURT: Well, they're -- they're -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 958 Volume 7, 1 THE WITNESS: Loose cannons. 2 THE COURT: Yes. And I don't know why 3 anybody would want to post Mr. -- I can't imagine why 4 a lawyer would want to post Mr. Minton's room number 5 for those people. 6 THE WITNESS: Nor could I. 7 THE COURT: So, now, some of the -- I mean, 8 there's some people that feel very -- I hate to use 9 the word "rabid." It's so bad. People who feel very 10 strongly -- 11 THE WITNESS: Fervent. 12 THE COURT: Fervent. You were one of them. 13 I mean, there are people that feel very fervent about 14 one side or the other, and so they say hateful things 15 about the other side. But I don't know that a lawyer 16 trying a case would necessarily want to let somebody, 17 a rabid -- a fervent person know where somebody else 18 is staying. 19 THE WITNESS: I think "rabid" is good. 20 THE COURT: Rabid. I guess somebody will 21 say that I -- I guess I can't be charged with what I 22 say in court. Fairly rabid people. They were 23 fairly -- as I said, I went back and reread some of 24 the things that Mr. Minton had said -- 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, that was rabid. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 959 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: -- on the Internet. 2 THE WITNESS: This -- 3 THE COURT: That's what I said. Whatever 4 this person sent me in the mail couldn't begin to 5 compare with some of the Internet postings, if that's 6 what you call them, that I read. 7 THE WITNESS: He regrets those, your Honor. 8 And so -- 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q So this is Sunday, and we're in Room 503. 11 A Right. And -- 12 Q And Jesse comes up to your room? 13 A Yes. I was in the room, and Mr. Minton was in 14 the room. And Jesse came up, and I -- we were waiting for 15 him, and -- excuse me -- I was very glad to have -- that he 16 was coming over. I was worried about him. 17 And I stuck my head out the door, and I saw him 18 coming from way down the hall -- or, not the hall, but the 19 balcony thing. And I went down to the end of the balcony 20 walkway and met him. And then we came -- we walked 21 together back to the room. 22 Q Was he alone, just him? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. 25 A And I was asking how he was doing and was he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 960 Volume 7, 1 okay. He smelled like alcohol. He was very intoxicated. 2 But -- well, I just -- you know, Jesse -- well, in any 3 case, he was very intoxicated and still didn't seem like 4 himself, and he was talking a little bit slurry. 5 Q How was it left on Friday? "Jesse, come on back 6 on Sunday, and we'll have something for you to look at 7 so --" 8 A No, Mr. Lirot. You tried that before, and it's 9 not what happened. 10 Q What did happen? 11 A We had a good dinner with him on Friday night, 12 and we -- and he left. And then I tried to call him on 13 Saturday -- or, I mean, I did call him on Saturday. He 14 wasn't home. I called in the mid afternoon and spoke to 15 one of Dee's -- Dee is his girlfriend -- one of Dee's 16 children, who said that he and Dee were gone and they said 17 they weren't going to be back all day. 18 Well, then on Sunday, I -- as we were walking 19 back to the room, I said, you know, "What did you guys do 20 yesterday?" 21 And Jesse said: "Well, we were just around the 22 house all day. I was just working outside and stuff." 23 Well, then I knew he was lying because he hadn't 24 been there all day and his -- the little boy wouldn't have 25 any reason to lie. So it was my feeling when Jesse said KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 961 Volume 7, 1 that that he was lying and that there was something really 2 wrong. But, you know, I wasn't sure -- I just thought that 3 he was not in good shape. I didn't -- I didn't think that 4 he was, you know, doing -- well, in any case, so we went 5 back into our room, and we sat down and -- 6 THE COURT: Are we still on trying to get 7 what these documents -- 8 THE WITNESS: I'm there right now, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm there. 12 A We sat down in the little living room part of the 13 room, and we started talking. And Jesse was seeming a 14 little bit -- just not himself. He was just not acting 15 like the person that we had known before. He was acting a 16 little bit surly, a little bit challenging. But again, he 17 was drunk, so we weren't sure why. 18 And so Bob, Mr. Minton, began to tell Mr. Prince 19 about Judge Schaeffer's -- about the hearing before Judge 20 Schaeffer. And right away, Mr. Prince got very defensive, 21 and unfortunately when he got very defensive, then 22 Mr. Minton got a little bit edgy. 23 And so then Mr. Minton said: Listen, Jesse, you 24 know, this judge is -- doesn't think you have any 25 credibility at all. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 962 Volume 7, 1 This isn't a quote, but this is basically what he 2 was saying: Judge Schaeffer doesn't think you have any 3 credibility to you at all, and, you know, you've got to 4 read this testimony about what she said. 5 And Mr. Prince said -- and by now he was really 6 acting surly. And he said: "Well, listen, Bobby, I don't 7 feel like sitting here reading it. Why don't you read 8 it -- why don't you tell me about it," like that. 9 And so then -- I mean, you have to understand 10 that these are two guys that have been really, really good 11 friends for a long time and have been through a lot 12 together. And so for -- for Mr. Prince to be talking to 13 Mr. Minton like that was really -- you know, just stunning 14 to Mr. Minton and to me. And so -- but, you know, 15 different people react in difference ways to being stunned. 16 I react by going, "Wait a minute, what's going on?" 17 Mr. Minton reacted by getting fairly angry. 18 And so he said: "Okay. Well, let me tell you 19 what she said. She said that you don't have any 20 credibility, that she doesn't think Ken ought to use you as 21 his expert, and that she's going to put you in jail," or 22 something like that. 23 Well, at that point, Mr. Prince stood up, and he 24 said -- I don't know, something like, you know, "Nobody 25 said I'm going to jail. What are you doing saying that I'm KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 963 Volume 7, 1 going to jail?" or, you know, something like this. 2 And I said, you know, "Look, you guys, why don't 3 we go downstairs and get something to eat," because I 4 figured food would be good. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q Had Mr. Minton been drinking that day? 7 A No. No, not that I remember. 8 Q Does Mr. Minton drink? 9 A Yes, he does. 10 Q Sometimes to excess? 11 A He has. 12 THE COURT: Well, what does that have to do 13 with anything? 14 THE WITNESS: He's just trying to impeach 15 Mr. Minton. 16 THE COURT: Well, no, he's not trying to 17 impeach Mr. Minton. In fact, you know how I get at 18 the end of the day? Annoyed? That has nothing to do 19 with this, unless Mr. Minton is, A, intoxicated while 20 he's testifying or close thereto, or at the time of 21 the event. So we don't need to get into his drinking 22 habits. 23 A So we went downstairs at my suggestion. And by 24 now both Mr. Prince and Mr. Minton were very on edge. And 25 we sat down in the restaurant of the Radisson and -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 964 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Have you asked a question? I 2 mean, we're just going on and on and on here. Are you 3 going somewhere? What is it you want to know? What 4 happened next? Is that it? 5 MR. LIROT: Judge, I want to know what 6 documents were referred to, and obviously I haven't 7 had much success cutting the witness off without being 8 chastised. 9 THE COURT: Well, Lord, all you have to do 10 is ask me: "Not responsive, your Honor." 11 "Sustained. Stop. We don't need any more." 12 This is your show. Run it. I don't mean 13 "show." 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q What documents were in the hotel room on the 14th 16 that Mr. Minton showed Mr. Prince? 17 A As I said, the transcript of the testimony from 18 October 8th. 19 Q And that's it? 20 A I don't know of anything else. 21 Q Were there -- there wasn't a big, thick 11-inch 22 pile of documents that Mr. Minton pointed out to 23 Mr. Prince? 24 A I've got to tell you that's an hallucination, 25 Mr. Lirot. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 965 Volume 7, 1 Q Okay. Was there any mention of the Armstrong 2 lawsuit to Mr. Prince when he was in your room on the 14th? 3 A Not that I recall. 4 Q Was there ever any mention of any threats being 5 made to Mr. Minton as part of this overall -- 6 A No. 7 Q -- global settlement? 8 A No. 9 Q Okay. 10 THE COURT: This is on this last night, this 11 Sunday -- 12 MR. LIROT: This is Sunday the 14th. 13 THE COURT: -- that we're talking about? 14 Okay. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q So -- so as I understand it, you point out -- or, 17 Mr. Minton summarizes Judge Schaeffer's views or statements 18 regarding Mr. Prince. And things get a little heated, and 19 you suggest everybody go downstairs and get something to 20 eat? 21 A Correct. 22 Q Okay. What happened next? 23 A Okay. So then what happened was we sat down at a 24 table. There was a woman with a young child sitting at a 25 table next to us. Mr. Prince starts -- and by now, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 966 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Prince is having another drink, and now he's getting 2 very loud and very drunk. And he's telling -- and he's 3 sitting across from Mr. Minton, and I'm sitting, you know, 4 watching these two. 5 And Mr. Prince starts telling Mr. Minton this 6 whole story about how when -- when he was in Scientology, 7 he was awakened at 4:45 in the morning and he was summonsed 8 to Mr. Miscavige's office -- that's the head of 9 Scientology, your Honor -- and everybody was there in their 10 dress uniforms and, you know, all the head people of 11 Scientology. He named a lot of different people. And they 12 were all in the room, and they wanted him to go to the RPF. 13 That's the Rehabilitation Project Force, which is where 14 Scientology sends people when they screw up. 15 And he went back to his room, and he got a couple 16 of guns. And he brought those guns -- 17 THE COURT: Is this the place that's been 18 referred to as out in the desert? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well, yes, he was out at 20 INT. That's what they call it. 21 THE COURT: What was it? 22 THE WITNESS: INT, short for 23 "international." 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 967 Volume 7, 1 Q So he gets boisterous, and you have him thrown 2 out, right? 3 A Hang on. No, no, no, no. You have the wrong 4 story here. Absolutely that is not what happened, 5 Mr. Lirot. So then -- 6 Q Let me back up. I appreciate your thoroughness 7 in responding to my questions. Why is Jesse part of this 8 deal? Why does he have to recant anything? 9 A He doesn't. 10 Q Well, why do you care about him? 11 A We cared about him a lot. He was our friend. We 12 were afraid that he was going to end up being caught 13 between these two ships, basically. 14 Q Obviously, he disagreed? 15 A He obviously -- he seems to now. He didn't act 16 like he did up until a few minutes -- I mean, I didn't 17 quite get to the part where we realized what was going on. 18 But up until a few minutes later from where I ended off the 19 story, we didn't know that. 20 And if -- if Mr. Prince doesn't want to recant, 21 if Mr. Prince doesn't want to get himself out of legal 22 trouble with the courts, that's up to Mr. Prince. We used 23 to think that it was up to us because he was our friend and 24 we've helped him out of other pretty serious legal 25 problems. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 968 Volume 7, 1 Mr. Minton paid for his whole criminal trial when 2 he got caught with drugs. And, you know, it was sort of 3 our habit to take care of Mr. Prince when he got in 4 trouble. And we were planning on helping him again. 5 Q Was that part of this global settlement that was 6 discussed at these other meetings? 7 A Never came up. His name never came up. 8 Q What -- what do you know he said that was 9 untruthful in any testimony that he gave? 10 THE COURT: Oh, dear. I mean -- 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q I guess I'll ask it this way. What did he need 13 to recant? 14 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know what all 15 she knows -- I don't know if Mr. Prince has filed 16 affidavits, Mr. Prince -- I don't know if she knows 17 when he's testified, where he's been. Can we just ask 18 that in general terms? I mean, maybe he's given a 19 bundle of depositions. How many did he give? 20 MR. LIROT: I don't know if he's given any. 21 Has he given any depositions? 22 MR. DANDAR: Two depositions -- one long, 23 seven-volume deposition. 24 MR. FUGATE: And he's filed a number of 25 affidavits. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 969 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Okay. Seven volumes. How many 2 pages do you suppose that is? 3 MR. LIROT: Longer than I have the energy to 4 go over today, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Who took that one? Mr. Moxon? 6 MR. MOXON: No. Mr. Dandar has a lot of 7 them. 8 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Weinberg took one 9 of them, and Mr. Rosen took another one. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Rosen seems to be 11 longer than either of you all. 12 MR. WEINBERG: He was announced as an 13 expert. I can't remember how long it was. We took a 14 couple of days of deposition. And then a lot of time 15 passed, and there were some other depositions which I 16 didn't do, but I can't remember what the dates of them 17 were. 18 THE WITNESS: But there was one with you at 19 the -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: At the Hyatt. 21 THE WITNESS: -- at the Hyatt in Tampa. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And you were there. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q So -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 970 Volume 7, 1 THE COURT: Notice I didn't ask you all to 2 give me all those depositions. Seven volumes, I can't 3 do it. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I didn't think you wanted to 5 read those. 6 THE WITNESS: No. 7 MR. DANDAR: Three full days in November of 8 '99. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 MR. DANDAR: Two days in May of 2000. 11 THE WITNESS: In Denver. There was one of 12 them in Denver. 13 MR. DANDAR: That's another unrelated case. 14 MR. WEINBERG: Remember, your Honor, this 15 came right after Mr. Prince filed his affidavit about 16 end cycle and all these things. And then we were 17 allowed to take his deposition. And you might 18 imagine, the case having expanded, that he became a 19 central focus as far as we were concerned. 20 THE COURT: I just said I don't want to read 21 anymore. I'm not going to ask you all anymore for all 22 the depositions because you give them to me and I get 23 frustrated when I'm halfway through and think, "Oh, my 24 God, I can't believe I said I would read all of them." 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 971 Volume 7, 1 Q So bottom line, Jesse, he didn't take your 2 suggestion or your advice on doing anything, did he? 3 A No. 4 Q And he ended up -- he left the hotel, no deal. 5 Safe to say? 6 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to "no 7 deal." I didn't hear any conversation about a deal. 8 THE WITNESS: Right. 9 A That's really not accurate. 10 BY MR. LIROT: 11 Q All right. He left the hotel and basically said, 12 "I'm not interested in following in your path of working 13 this case out or being in any way --" 14 THE COURT: That isn't what either he said 15 or she said or Mr. Minton said. 16 THE WITNESS: No. 17 THE COURT: So the deal is, Counselor, you'd 18 better just ask her what was said. Ask her what was 19 said by Mr. Prince. And then we'll ask Mr. Minton, 20 and we'll see if we get anything close to the same. 21 Don't you try to suggest it. You weren't there. 22 MR. LIROT: I wasn't there. 23 THE COURT: Either ask -- 24 MR. LIROT: I wasn't there. 25 THE COURT: Either ask or lead. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 972 Volume 7, 1 A Do you want me to tell you? 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q Tell me. 4 A Okay. 5 THE COURT: Preferably lead. But since you 6 haven't, go ahead. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Did you say "leave" or 8 "lead"? 9 THE COURT: "Lead." 10 MR. WEINBERG: I thought you meant "leave." 11 THE COURT: "Lead." Leading questions are 12 sometimes good. 13 A So Mr. Prince finished this whole story about 14 drawing these guns on these people. And then he said to 15 Mr. Minton something like, "I don't want to go down that 16 road with you, Bobby." 17 And Mr. Minton took that -- felt -- took that as 18 a threat. And he said, "What the hell are you talking 19 about, Jesse?" 20 And Jesse said, "You've become a Scientologist." 21 And that was when we understood that Jesse was 22 not with us and -- anymore. And so then some other words 23 were exchanged, and then Mr. Minton said, "You need to 24 get --" 25 Oh, oh, and this other thing that was happening KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 973 Volume 7, 1 was, he was using a lot of profanity, and Mr. Minton kept 2 asking him to stop because this woman and her child were 3 sitting right there and Mr. Prince just kept getting louder 4 and louder. And it was my feeling that he was just really, 5 really drunk. 6 And so I -- and so Mr. Minton got really mad and 7 said, "You need to get up and you need to leave this hotel 8 right now and I never want to see you again." 9 Well, okay, but he was angry, and Mr. Prince was 10 really drunk. And so I walked out with Mr. Prince to try 11 and talk to him about what had happened and, you know, get 12 him to go in and apologize to Mr. Minton. 13 But instead, Mr. Prince, as we were walking 14 towards his car, he started yelling and saying, you know -- 15 you know, "Bob's never done anything for me." 16 He -- well, he was using a lot of profanity, and 17 I was just really shocked at what he was saying, because I 18 mean, you can say a lot of things about Mr. Minton, but you 19 can't say that he's not done a lot for Jesse Prince. That 20 you cannot say. And for Mr. Prince to be talking that way, 21 it was just stunning to me. 22 And so I just stopped, and I just figured that he 23 needed to go home and get some sleep and sober up. 24 Q So you took him to his car, and that was the 25 end -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 974 Volume 7, 1 A Well, I didn't take him. He just walked on to 2 his car. 3 Q All right. And then you went back and joined 4 Mr. Minton? 5 A Yes. 6 Q All right. Now, did you speak with Mr. Prince 7 after that? 8 A Yes. The next day he called me. 9 THE COURT: Are we at a good stopping point 10 or are we about to end with this or do we have a lot 11 more? 12 MR. LIROT: Judge, after we go through this, 13 I wanted to go through the deposition -- not the 14 deposition, but the affidavit. This would be a good 15 stopping point. 16 THE COURT: The affidavit? 17 MR. LIROT: The 22-pager, and then I'm done. 18 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- your Honor, can 20 we find out if I will be done tomorrow? 21 THE COURT: I don't think you will. I mean, 22 we just took a long time getting through one evening. 23 He's going to go through that 27-page [sic] affidavit. 24 There's a lot of stuff in there. I bet it will be 25 days. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 975 Volume 7, 1 MR. LIROT: No, Judge, I won't make it last 2 days. 3 THE COURT: What's that? 4 MR. LIROT: I won't make it last days. 5 There are a number of questions I think are 6 relevant -- 7 THE COURT: I'm not -- trust me, as I said, 8 I'm not trying to cut you short. It just seems like 9 it's taking an awful long time to get whatever it is 10 you want out. 11 So I don't know if you'll be done tomorrow 12 or not. Why? Is there somewhere you need to be the 13 next day? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Just tired? 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: If you're tired, understand 18 this. When you're done, I'm not. So there you go. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm sure you're a 20 lot more tired of this than I am. 21 THE COURT: All right. You can count on it. 22 We're going to stop for the day. Oh, I did 23 want to -- 24 MR. McGOWAN: Judge -- 25 THE COURT: Yes, we were going to talk about KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 976 Volume 7, 1 the -- 2 You can step down. 3 I wanted to take up that motion, but you 4 know what? I'm tired, and I don't feel like doing 5 justice to a legal matter, so -- 6 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. 7 THE COURT: -- can we do it in the morning? 8 9 o'clock? 9 You all don't have to be here. We'll take 10 up this legal whatever it is that they want to object 11 to. Who was it who produced? They did. 12 You're all welcome to come, but if you 13 don't, this is going to be a legal argument. 14 MR. McGOWAN: What time did you tell 15 Ms. Brooks? 16 THE COURT: 9:30? Is that okay? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Is that okay with you all? Do 19 you think half an hour, we can do the motions? 20 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. 21 THE COURT: Well, we're going to take up 22 this motion at 9, so -- 23 THE WITNESS: Better be here. 24 THE COURT: This has to do with your income 25 tax and LMT's tax returns, so you might want to be KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 977 Volume 7, 1 here for it. 2 See you all tomorrow at 9 o'clock. 3 (Court adjourned at 5:07 p.m.) 4 ____________________________________ 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS 978 Volume 7, 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 14th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 979 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 8 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 14, 2002. Morning Session. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25 980 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 21 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. 22 Counsel for Robert Minton. 23 24 25 981 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN 3 MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 4 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 5 6 ALSO PRESENT: 7 Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector 8 Mr. Allan Cartwright Ms. Lara Cartwright 9 Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw 10 Ms. Joyce Earl 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 982 1 THE COURT: Okay, let's take up a few of these 2 matters from yesterday. 3 First off, Mr. Howie, apparently this 4 material -- the materials from the Hague Convention, 5 whatever this is, you have seen this now. 6 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, I have. 7 THE COURT: Is this in compliance with the 8 order I signed or whatever it was done by me to get 9 in? 10 MR. HOWIE: I have reason to believe there was 11 a request sent by this court. I recall seeing. I 12 went through all of my pleadings last night. I did 13 not find that specific order. To say it is in 14 compliance -- I have no objection to its use in 15 evidence. Whether it is in full compliance with the 16 court's order -- 17 THE COURT: Does anybody have that order? Did 18 you give that to me yesterday. 19 MR. MOXON: I gave it to you yesterday, your 20 Honor. I think I have another copy. I'll see if I 21 can find it. 22 THE COURT: I may just have it sitting right up 23 here. I think maybe this is probably it. 24 MR. MOXON: This was before Judge Beach. 25 Mr. Dandar -- 983 1 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, do you recall this, 2 that I requested this? 3 MR. LIROT: You -- 4 MR. DANDAR: You requested it since -- 5 THE COURT: They are both Judge Beach 6 apparently. 7 MR. DANDAR: Defendants requested it and an 8 order was signed. 9 THE COURT: By Judge Beach. 10 MR. DANDAR: I believe so. 11 THE COURT: Those are the copies of two orders. 12 And this, whatever this is, this complies with the 13 request? 14 MR. DANDAR: As soon as we can get it 15 interpreted, we believe it does. 16 THE COURT: All right. Okay. Now, do you have 17 a copy, Mr. Howie? 18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I have a copy of the 19 letter from Norway, including the letters from 20 Andreas Heldal-Lund that are attached there. 21 THE COURT: So this complies with that order? 22 MR. HOWIE: It -- presuming that is the entire 23 document and examination production of Andreas 24 Heldal-Lund in Operation Clambake, it would appear 25 to comply. 984 1 MR. DANDAR: Plaintiff does not have a copy of 2 it. 3 THE COURT: Nobody has a copy except Mr. Howie. 4 I have got it right here. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 6 THE COURT: We just decided he should have the 7 opportunity to look to see if it comports with the 8 request. But I don't know how anybody would know if 9 you can't read -- 10 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, it appears to be a 11 series -- from what little I can make it, it appears 12 to be a series of letters from Andreas Heldal-Lund, 13 but beyond that it is hard to make out, making 14 criminal allegations. 15 THE COURT: Against who? 16 MR. HOWIE: Against the Church of Scientology, 17 presumably. But between limited knowledge of German 18 and very limited knowledge of Swedish, that is what 19 I can make out. 20 THE COURT: Well, is that what was requested? 21 I thought what was requested -- 22 MR. MOXON: No -- 23 THE COURT: -- was financial records. 24 MR. MOXON: Judge, I haven't seen the letter so 25 I don't know what you have there. 985 1 THE COURT: Here, I'm going to give each of you 2 all a copy so you know what I'm talking about. 3 Mr. Dandar, I'm going to give you this original. If 4 one -- there is one page in there you'll have to 5 copy for everyone, because my copier did not pick it 6 up very well. 7 MR. DANDAR: You want me to copy it? 8 THE COURT: I don't care. I think it was their 9 request so I gave it to them, but there is one page 10 in there, you'll see it is very light in the 11 original. And our copy machine, I -- it came out 12 even lighter. So Mr. Moxon said they would use a 13 copy machine to see if they could get a better copy, 14 but if you get a good copy, you'll see on that 15 original it is very light. 16 MR. MOXON: Yes. 17 MR. DANDAR: It says on Page 3 of this document 18 amends J -- I'm just kidding. Sorry. 19 THE COURT: For now we're off the record 20 because we are going to make fun of this. 21 (A discussion was held off the record.) 22 MR. MOXON: The financial records is what were 23 requested. There seems to be correspondence from 24 Mr. Lund, too. I don't know if it is financial 25 information or what it is. Because I don't have a 986 1 clue what he's saying here. 2 THE COURT: It seems to suggest -- I guess we 3 can be on the record here. It seems to suggest by 4 the cover letter that it's a request of mine 5 dated -- I have to assume this is 11/16/01. And so 6 I have given up my copies of the order now. But I 7 don't know what I requested. That appears to be two 8 things of Judge Beach. And specifically it is 9 addressed to me. So I don't remember anything about 10 this. But -- 11 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I can explain that. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 MR. MOXON: When we sent the order signed by 14 Judge Beach over to our counsel in Norway pursuant 15 to the Hague Convention and asked him to relay it to 16 the Norwegian authorities, and he did. And they 17 contacted him and told him that, "This is fine. 18 We'll go ahead and ask Mr. Lund for the materials." 19 And they got the materials and said, "However, we 20 need to send it back to the Court." 21 So I gave our attorney in Norway your name and 22 address. 23 THE COURT: Okay. That is fine. Now, whatever 24 this other stuff is besides the financial documents, 25 it appears that a lot of it comes from this 987 1 ZENU.Net, which I assume this is some site 2 somewhere. 3 MR. MOXON: It says Operation Clambake at the 4 top. 5 THE COURT: Right. 6 MR. DANDAR: That is ZENU.Net. 7 THE COURT: I have to assume this higher 8 executive office from the Royal Ministry of Justice 9 & Police looked at this order and sent this. It's 10 just very difficult for me because I have absolutely 11 no idea what it says. So I guess what I'll do is 12 I'm going to hand it out and suggest that when you 13 all have it interpreted, if it looks like there is 14 something improper, well, just bring it to my 15 attention. 16 MR. MOXON: Okay, I'll have the original so 17 I'll make clean copies for everybody. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Well, if everybody has good 19 copies of everything except this one page, and I'll 20 show you -- boy, you should be able to see it. It's 21 a very light page in the originals. 22 MR. DANDAR: Judge, the purpose of this was to 23 find out where the $300,000 came from to the LMT 24 that Ms. Brooks and Mr. Minton testified came from 25 Operation Clambake. And this bank statement shows 988 1 almost, you know, $85 short of $300,000 going to the 2 Bank of New York, then the Bank of America in 3 Clearwater. What I don't know, if the Norwegian 4 letters explain where the $300,000 came from to go 5 to Operation Clambake. That is what we don't know. 6 MR. MOXON: None of us know. 7 THE COURT: Well, here is the deal. They sent 8 it. Apparently Judge Beach entered an order. This 9 is what they sent. As I said, you all have it 10 transcribed. If it looks like from either party 11 that there is something here or -- you know, 12 certainly we can have it transcribed for Mr. Minton. 13 You have it transcribed for the church. You have it 14 transcribed for the plaintiff. If there is anything 15 here that shouldn't be there, somebody needs to 16 bring it to my attention and I'll expect it to be 17 returned. But I don't know what to do. I got it. 18 It's in a foreign language, and I don't think there 19 is any need to file this in the court file. 20 MR. MOXON: I don't think so, no. 21 THE COURT: Because this is a request to 22 produce type thing. So I have a copy of it. I'll 23 keep it. 24 MR. MOXON: Good. Thank you, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: I have got two extra copies. Do 989 1 you want a copy? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 3 THE COURT: It does apparently have to do with 4 funds that went to LMT. Mr. Howie, you have one? 5 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 6 THE COURT: I have an extra. I made five 7 copies. One for me. Somebody doesn't have one. I 8 gave you one. 9 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor. 10 MR. MOXON: You gave me the original, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Oh, that is it. Thank you. 13 Okay. All right. Now, we're going to take 14 up -- well, first of all, let me see what I didn't 15 tell you all yesterday. I think I told you all most 16 of this stuff. 17 As a matter of -- just for my own information, 18 I read a little blip in the St. Petersburg Times 19 about Mr. Wollersheim recovering a verdict. Is that 20 accurate information? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Not a verdict; it was a 22 payment of the outstanding judgment. 23 THE COURT: These two items we're going to take 24 up as being the Brooks and Minton tax returns and 25 LMT's tax returns. That is a matter for me. 990 1 We talked about the sealed depositions. 2 Did I tell you all I needed a copy of the 3 transcript of the severe sanctions if I couldn't 4 find it? 5 MR. DANDAR: You did say that. 6 MR. FUGATE: Oh. 7 THE COURT: It's on your list. Okay. 8 MR. FUGATE: Judge, here is the Alain 9 Kartuzinski -- 10 THE COURT: Thank you. 11 MR. FUGATE: I didn't think of the other one. 12 THE COURT: Thanks. I was -- I'll put that 13 over here. 14 MR. DANDAR: It must be a condensed version. 15 THE COURT: I looked again for this deposition 16 last night and I just couldn't put my hands on it. 17 But as I said, I get frustrated about halfway 18 through this stuff. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I think there was a notebook we 20 gave you with those depositions in it. 21 THE COURT: Do you know how many I have? 22 MR. WEINBERG: I guess the notebook is not a 23 good clue. 24 THE COURT: It's not a good clue. No. 25 I have the third affidavit. That third 991 1 affidavit, as I read it last night, isn't a 2 recanting affidavit. It's just simply an affidavit 3 of fact. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 5 THE COURT: All right. I had an additional 6 memorandum to support the omnibus motion for 7 terminating sanctions and other relief. It appears 8 to deal, to some extent, with the issue that I 9 raised yesterday about the allegations in the 10 complaint and whether or not you had anyone to 11 produce in that. I did advise you of that so 12 obviously they are making this part of an issue of 13 law, so -- 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Oh, one thing you-all could help me 16 with. As requested -- or I don't know if it was 17 requested or not, but I was handed the depositions 18 of Mr. Minton, and I did read them, and I was handed 19 the depositions of Ms. Liebreich. I did read them. 20 Do you know, one of her sets of depositions is 21 so hard to read that I honestly just -- I mean, I 22 just started glancing and looked for key words. But 23 there is one set of her depositions that is just a 24 terrible -- it's unlike anything in the rest of 25 them. I don't want -- I don't want it unless you 992 1 all think there is something in there I absolutely 2 need, either side. But I'm going to tell you-all 3 which one it was. 4 MR. WEINBERG: You mean it was a bad copy? 5 THE COURT: No. It was -- I'm going to show it 6 to you-all. Well, in truth, I guess I did read it. 7 It was this one dated January -- it would have been 8 the one dated January 10th. 9 It just was an unusual copy. If you'll look at 10 the copy, the lines -- trying to figure out what 11 line anything was on, were very blurred. But I see 12 now that I struggled through it. Apparently I put 13 it down one night and picked it up the next day. So 14 this was unusual. 15 When you are reading a compressed transcript -- 16 well, I'm sure you all realize this better than 17 anybody. The ones that are the easiest ones, at 18 least cut in quarters, you can see defined lines. 19 This one doesn't have defined lines. So everything 20 just -- but I don't want another one. I mean, it 21 looks like I went through and struggled with it. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm looking at another copy and 23 the pages don't come out on it, so -- 24 THE COURT: For whatever reason, the ones that 25 had the lines seem to be much easier to deal with. 993 1 But as I said, I struggled through it. 2 One of the things that I -- anyway, so I read 3 those and I made notes and I made notes for how much 4 and what have you. 5 But one of the things I really wasn't sure that 6 I really had when I was all done, and my notes 7 didn't help me much, was exactly where the false 8 statements that Mr. Minton says he made about the 9 exclusion of the $500,000 are. I also noticed that 10 in various filings you all have said that he said a 11 million-fifty, and I saw that and a million-three. 12 And I heard that figure because I wonder remembering 13 if a million-three meant @ one million three three 14 three. You know, in my crazy mind I remember 15 thinking that. 16 I couldn't find it. So if somebody could just 17 show me exactly where -- if somebody could give me a 18 little sheet that says where these false statements 19 are. I could only find them -- I could only find 20 this million-five -- I'm sorry, $1,050,000 in one 21 deposition. 22 MR. DANDAR: May 2000. 23 THE COURT: May of 2000. So -- because after 24 that it appeared to me that in the deposition in 25 this case Mr. Minton claimed the Fifth. 994 1 MR. DANDAR: Right. 2 THE COURT: I got tired of reading that. I 3 must admit, it may be in there where he blurted 4 something out and I just missed it. You know how it 5 is when you read page after page. 6 MR. MOXON: You are exactly right. 7 THE COURT: Am I? 8 MR. MOXON: Yes, in May he said a 9 million-fifty. 10 THE COURT: Where is there million-three I see 11 from time to time? 12 MR. MOXON: There was a -- a million-three was 13 a term that was mentioned in another deposition as 14 to how much he put into the Lisa McPherson Trust. 15 That is in the record. 16 But there was a million-three, if you count 17 another $250,000 which he acknowledged. But that 18 was -- that wasn't in May of 2000; that was in May 19 of 2001. So in May of 2001 there was $1,300,000 20 that was acknowledged. In May of 2000 there was 21 $1,050,000 acknowledged on the record. That is all. 22 So it is in the record. 23 THE COURT: So May of 2000 deposition is the 24 one we're speaking of? 25 MR. MOXON: That is correct. 995 1 THE COURT: All right. Well, is a 2 million-three another error? I mean, is that 3 another -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: It would be an error, too. They 5 would be short 500. 6 THE COURT: So, in other words, instead of a 7 million-three it should have been a million-eight? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 9 THE COURT: Could you please, somebody, if you 10 have those tabbed, just put deposition -- Minton 11 deposition date, page and line so I can readily find 12 that when I refer to it. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 14 THE COURT: I also noticed then at the 15 deposition taken in the breach of contract he, 16 likewise, took the Fifth. So I presumed in both of 17 those depositions they were not repeats; they were 18 simply the Fifth Amendment. So I'm glad to see I 19 didn't miss that. 20 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor? 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. LIEBERMAN: I will check on this because I 23 don't want to -- I don't have it in front of me -- 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- but I'm just looking at my 996 1 notes on this issue of the million-fifty. The 2 instances in which this was either misstated or not 3 provided include not only what you just indicated, 4 but I believe there was a deposition of Mr. Minton 5 dated September 18, 2001 at Pages 29 and 30 in which 6 the $1,050,000 figure was referred to. 7 THE COURT: Would you do me a favor -- 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: I'll check on that. 9 THE COURT: -- give me a piece of paper -- it 10 doesn't have to be a filing -- where you say on such 11 and such a deposition, that seems to be quite an 12 issue here. 13 MR. MOXON: I'm sorry, one other point of 14 clarification. There was a later statement by 15 Mr. Dandar on the record, too, that is part of this, 16 of course, that he said he received -- 17 THE COURT: I saw where that was alleged, so if 18 you want to, you can put that in there, too, just 19 where this misstatement -- alleged misstatement of 20 money is. All right? 21 MR. MOXON: Yes. 22 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, you can either 23 verify what they put down or give me your own or 24 whatever. 25 MR. DANDAR: It is on Page 212 of the May 24 -- 997 1 THE COURT: See, I don't want you all to -- 2 MR. DANDAR: All right. 3 THE COURT: I don't want to write notes. I 4 want it on a piece of paper. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 THE COURT: In Mr. Minton's first affidavit, he 7 makes a statement -- maybe I'll hear about this, 8 maybe I'm just premature -- that he has reason to 9 believe another $100,000 was not discovered. I 10 don't know what exactly that means. Not discovered. 11 But I don't know whether he's going to refer to 12 this in his testimony. I don't know whether it is 13 not an issue. I don't know whether they are saying 14 there is some lie about that or whether that is 15 just -- I don't know what that means, but I made 16 myself a note, when, what date, what does this mean, 17 it's not discovered. So I made a note about that. 18 In several of your submissions, the Church's 19 submissions, they refer to two cases. And it always 20 says -- and this is maybe in some orders, maybe that 21 is where I saw it, in some of Judge Quesada's orders 22 perhaps. He refers to Golden Door Jewelry -- two 23 federal cases. 24 MR. DANDAR: Rentclub and Golden Door. 25 THE COURT: Golden Door and Rentclub. And 998 1 it -- they refer to, like even to. @AUDIO I know 2 like anybody reading them know what those cases are. 3 Obviously I can go read them, that is what I have, 4 "Read these two cases." I don't know what he's 5 referring to. Does anybody know off the top of 6 their head? 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes, I do. 8 THE COURT: Well, Mr. Dandar, why don't you 9 tell us. 10 MR. DANDAR: Those are two cases that the 11 Church of Scientology insists on putting in the 12 orders to -- they talk about this qualification of 13 attorney. One of them dealt with the attorney 14 hiring the current legal consultant or the corporate 15 vice-president during the trial and having that 16 vice-president tell the attorney all of the work 17 product of the other side, much @ lease Ms. Brooks 18 handed over my letter of May of '97 to these 19 attorneys about my work product. And that was an 20 instant disqualification of the attorneys who looked 21 at that work product. 22 THE COURT: Well, are these disqualification 23 cases? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Because it seems like I don't know 999 1 why Judge Quesada would be dealing with these. 2 MR. DANDAR: Well, he put it in their proposed 3 order. He was going to leave it in there. I said, 4 "You know, it makes it look like you are looking at 5 me like I did something wrong." 6 He said, "Oh, no --" it is on the record, by 7 the way. He said, "They put it in. It is @}in 8 the cycle. It doesn't matter." 9 THE COURT: I can see nobody will agree. I 10 better just read the case. 11 MR. FUGATE: I was going to say you should read 12 them because they deal with expert witnesses that 13 are paid. 14 MR. DANDAR: But I'll also tell you that 15 Rentclub case they cite over and over again has been 16 superseded by the Supreme Court of Florida decision 17 called HCA Management, which I will give you a copy 18 of. 19 THE COURT: Okay. But they are -- they are 20 something about attorneys and bad faith or 21 something? 22 MR. FUGATE: And they deal with expert 23 witnesses who are paid and have an interest in the 24 litigation, as I recall. But you can read it, 25 Judge, and -- 1000 1 THE COURT: Yes, as I said, I just saw it and I 2 made a note to myself. I thought -- 3 MR. MOXON: Just to clarify, the other issue, 4 Rentclub in particular, your Honor, is payment of 5 money to fact witnesses. 6 MR. FUGATE: Right. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 MR. MOXON: Which will -- 9 THE COURT: All right. I have already told you 10 I wanted -- didn't I -- or did I say I wanted a copy 11 of all affidavits provided by Stacy Brooks? Did I 12 say that to you-all yesterday? 13 MR. MOXON: Yes. 14 THE COURT: I said I did not have except the 15 two recanting affidavits. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 THE COURT: So if you-all -- if you-all could 18 get those for me. And yes, I did tell you, I 19 said -- 20 MR. WEINBERG: You told us your -- it was your 21 number 13 or something on your list. 22 THE COURT: It was my number 23. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I eliminated 10. We'll 24 try to bring them tomorrow. 25 THE COURT: @AUDIO I told you-all one was 1001 1 affidavit not position filed 2/98 and there were 2 apparently filed 10/99 to support plaintiff's motion 3 to amend, then yesterday you-all told me they were 4 affidavits given in another -- other cases, but they 5 had a cover sheet submitting them in this case in 6 some fashion. 7 MR. FUGATE: Those were submitted by plaintiff. 8 I think we had given you all of the -- of the ones 9 that have generated since then. 10 THE COURT: So this is for you, Mr. Dandar. 11 Mr. Dandar? That is for you to give me. Okay? 12 MR. DANDAR: Stacy Brooks? 13 THE COURT: The three affidavits the plaintiff 14 submitted. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 THE COURT: Did you-all write this down 17 yesterday? 18 MR. DANDAR: No, we made copies of those, 19 actually. We have those. 20 MR. FUGATE: Because the other affidavit that 21 was produced yesterday was the declaration of Stacy 22 Brooks regarding records retention and destruction 23 from LMT. That was in the package we turned over, 24 so that is all of the ones that we have that I'm 25 aware of. 1002 1 THE COURT: Okay. So you-all get those 2 together, give them to me. I talked to you a little 3 bit about the 2d DCA. I would just have to keep you 4 all -- tell me if there is any change in that DCA 5 opinion as you-all did yesterday, told me another 6 one. 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Here is the Stacy Brooks 8 affidavit that was filed on February 3, 1998, which 9 included her affidavit or declaration from @ 10 Dickerson versus Sally Jesse Rafael. A Michigan 11 case. And then here is a Stacy Young affidavit that 12 we filed with the motion to add on parties in 13 October; October 7, '99. This one is dated 14 March 13, 1997 from another case. 15 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I show there are 16 three. Maybe not. 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, there are -- 18 THE COURT: There must be something, if you 19 filed this. It wasn't on the front of it. 20 MR. DANDAR: Motion to add parties. 21 THE COURT: And it was attached to it? 22 MR. DANDAR: It was attached as one of the 23 exhibits. 24 THE COURT: Well, I -- 25 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to have the whole 1003 1 thing? 2 THE COURT: Yes, I really would. I need to 3 know what this has to do with. 4 MR. DANDAR: In your hand is two affidavits. 5 One saying I attached my prior affidavit and it is 6 true and correct. 7 THE COURT: Okay. That would be the third one. 8 So you get whatever goes with that. And give it to 9 me. 10 MR. DANDAR: All right. 11 THE COURT: In your good time. 12 But I would like to have it before Ms. Brooks 13 is done because I may have some question about it. 14 MR. DANDAR: Okay. We'll call the office. 15 THE COURT: Well, get me the affidavit, then 16 you can give me what it goes to. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, could I get a copy 19 from Mr. Dandar of what he's submitting? 20 THE COURT: You all should have it because it's 21 been filed. These are filed affidavits. Yes, you 22 can make a copy. Take mine, I guess, make a copy. 23 But I want it -- I mean, he doesn't have extras. 24 I'm lucky to have these. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 1004 1 MR. DANDAR: You would be surprised. I might 2 have some extras. 3 THE COURT: All right, Mr. Dandar. 4 MR. DANDAR: Are these extras? 5 THE COURT: Then I already covered this with 6 you-all about some of the exhibits that were 7 introduced in front of Judge Baird that I thought 8 perhaps ought not be considered in this case. And I 9 also discussed this. The LMT payments to witnesses 10 taped statements haven't been produced yet, but 11 we're going to get to that issue. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 13 THE COURT: That is really all I have. So I 14 covered a -- a lot of the stuff was notes to me, do 15 this, do that. 16 Okay. Let's deal with the request to produce 17 the two things that were objected to. One was LMT's 18 tax return which you say only exists for 2000. 19 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: And I guess Ms. Brooks' return -- 21 personal return was requested for five years. Was 22 that it? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 24 THE COURT: And you objected. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 1005 1 THE COURT: So I will hear you. Let's take 2 them one at a time. LMT existed really for what, a 3 year and a half? 4 MR. McGOWAN: A year and a half. 5 THE COURT: Came into existence in January of 6 2000, maybe November? 7 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Of '99? 9 MR. McGOWAN: Right. But -- 10 THE COURT: But for all intents and purposes, 11 it's major year of operation was 2000. 12 MR. McGOWAN: 2000, then it shut down in 2001. 13 I have the 2000 tax return here. An appropriate 14 number of copies. The 2001 return hasn't been filed 15 so it doesn't exist. 16 THE COURT: An extension has been asked for? 17 MR. McGOWAN: No, the paperwork -- I just 18 received the paperwork and forwarded it to a CPA who 19 I assume will file an extension. 20 THE COURT: Okay. So it has not been filed, no 21 extension has been requested. 22 MR. McGOWAN: No. Simply the raw financial 23 materials. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Now tell me why it shouldn't 25 be produced. 1006 1 MR. McGOWAN: Well, your Honor, in the first -- 2 in the first place, I would point out to the Court 3 that the similar request has been made in this case 4 to produce Mr. Dandar's tax returns. They have 5 objected on the grounds that the production of tax 6 returns is privileged. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry, that what? 8 MR. McGOWAN: That the production of tax 9 returns is privileged. That is their position with 10 respect to Mr. Dandar's tax returns. They are 11 obviously inconsistent in asking for the LMT and 12 Brooks tax returns. 13 I can tell you, your Honor, that my research 14 indicates that the production of tax returns is not 15 privileged. But that the Court can scrutinize why 16 tax returns are being sought. We have objected on 17 the grounds of -- on the grounds of burdensome, 18 irrelevant and oppressive. And as we enter Day 6 of 19 this witness's testimony, I can tell you there are 20 depreciation schedules on here that could give a new 21 meaning to oppressive if we have to give them over. 22 THE COURT: I'm sorry, to give what? 23 MR. McGOWAN: A new meaning to oppressive if we 24 have to give them over and go over depreciation 25 schedules of these tax returns. 1007 1 If I can approach, the -- and I apologize for 2 the format of this case -- 3 THE COURT: That is all right. 4 MR. McGOWAN: My West Law citings got messed 5 up. This is Cabanas versus Ford, Armenteros and 6 Manucy. 727 So.2d, 1100. 7 And in that case, if you go to the Page 4, 8 notes 3 and 4, the Court does an analysis of when 9 tax return production is appropriate. And in that 10 case the party seeking the tax returns had to make a 11 proffer of why the production of the returns would 12 be relevant. Because the test at the end of the day 13 is a relevancy test that the Court has to look at. 14 I would ask at this time that we get such a 15 proffer from the plaintiffs to see what it is 16 they're looking for. Certainly they're not looking 17 for medical deductions or charitable contributions, 18 things like that, as to Ms. Young -- or Ms. Brooks. 19 But -- and I don't know what they're looking 20 for in the LMT. There has been a good deal of 21 testimony about how it was funded, who funded it. 22 And, you know, if they are looking at depreciation 23 of typewriters or what have you, I don't know what 24 relevancy that has. 25 So I would ask the Court allow them to proffer 1008 1 what it is that is relevant about these tax returns 2 so that we can make some kind of an argument about 3 the relevancy issue. 4 THE COURT: All right. I think that is 5 probably appropriate. 6 MR. LIROT: Judge, I'm reading the authority 7 provided the Court by Mr. McGowan. And I think it 8 actually supports our position. "Copies of tax 9 returns are not privileged and may be used in state 10 court proceedings where they are relevant." 11 THE COURT: That is all we are asking, Counsel, 12 for you to tell us why they are relevant. 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think one of the primary 14 theories we have advanced in the case are there are 15 other explanations why Mr. Minton has changed his 16 position. One of the primary reasons, we think, is 17 that he's afraid of some type of tax evasion charge 18 or some issue involving something that might have 19 been related to taxation. 20 The only way for us to evaluate whether or not 21 that is true is to balance out what moneys were 22 testified to, what the character of those moneys are 23 in testimony, compare those to what they have been 24 represented as in these tax returns to make sure 25 there is consistency there. 1009 1 We don't know and we'll have no way of knowing 2 unless we get a chance to look at these tax returns 3 and see if what was declared as income was properly 4 reported, to see if there is an issue about whether 5 or not, you know, moneys that were gifted were 6 properly reported. 7 So without the tax returns, we don't know. And 8 it goes directly to the relevance of the issue where 9 we are trying to say there is more here than just 10 the explanations given. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. LIROT: So that is basically it. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe the Court 14 has already ruled on Mr. Minton's tax returns or 15 his -- the need for him not to -- that he's not 16 going to give them up under his Fifth Amendment 17 privilege. Ms. Brooks and LMT is not asserting the 18 Fifth Amendment privilege. 19 However, if they are interested in some -- 20 THE COURT: I don't know that I have actually 21 ruled on the tax returns. I think I have ruled that 22 when he was required -- when I ruled that he had 23 waived the Fifth Amendment privilege by his Internet 24 postings or various and sundry things where I ruled 25 he waived it, I said he had not waived the right to 1010 1 claim the Fifth Amendment regarding income tax 2 issues is my recollection. I don't know, maybe I'm 3 wrong. I don't think I dealt with the tax return. 4 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, because 5 I'm joining in these objections based on request for 6 production directed to Mr. Minton, on this point 7 I'm -- 8 THE COURT: Fine, go ahead and you can be heard 9 then right now, too. 10 MR. HOWIE: On that point I'm raising this 11 particular issue. On September 21, 2001 in 12 deposition Mr. Minton took the Fifth Amendment 13 privilege against some 90 questions. A vast 14 majority of those questions dealt with payments made 15 to Mr. Dandar. 16 The Court ruled that Mr. Minton had waived his 17 Fifth Amendment privilege because he had -- 18 THE COURT: Posted these. 19 MR. HOWIE: He posted to these, testified to 20 them under oath. However, he raised Fifth Amendment 21 privilege as to questions concerning his income, the 22 source of the funds, and his tax returns. 23 The Court, by its order, I believe in October 24 of last year, said that he was allowed to continue 25 to raise the privilege. Admittedly there is no 1011 1 symmetry here in our arguments on that particular 2 point. Mr. Minton, we feel, is still allowed to 3 raise the Fifth Amendment privilege. The Court has 4 ruled that his Fifth Amendment privilege on that 5 point is intact. And that would be -- 6 THE COURT: Of course, that LMT, Inc., I @ gee 7 guess is what it is -- is it Inc.? 8 MR. HOWIE: Yes. 9 THE COURT: -- is hardly Mr. Minton's 10 privilege. I mean, that is a corporation, totally 11 separate person under the eyes of the law. 12 MR. HOWIE: That is correct. Mr. Minton does 13 not have standing to raise privilege on behalf of 14 LMT. But on this point where they are requesting 15 Mr. Minton's personal tax returns, apart from any 16 other arguments that we would join in from 17 Mr. McGowan, we also raised the issue that he is 18 maintaining his Fifth Amendment privilege. 19 THE COURT: Does he plan to continue to assert 20 that, if asked? In other words, is that something 21 he's going to waive or he's going to continue to 22 assert? 23 MR. HOWIE: He's going to continue to assert 24 his Fifth Amendment privilege as to the income, the 25 source of any moneys, and reporting of the same on 1012 1 his tax returns. 2 THE COURT: And so -- so he doesn't want to 3 turn over his tax returns because that can be part 4 of his Fifth Amendment privilege? 5 MR. HOWIE: Precisely. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 MR. HOWIE: In addition to any other objections 8 and grounds raised by Mr. McGowan that would pertain 9 to Mr. Minton. I don't need to repeat those. 10 THE COURT: I think that is the problem. I 11 don't know what benefit, frankly, the LMT tax return 12 will be to counsel. But I don't think it -- you 13 can't claim a privilege on the part of a 14 corporation. 15 MR. McGOWAN: No, you can't. 16 THE COURT: I understand what they believe to 17 be relevant here. Obviously it is their contention, 18 and it is as clear as it can be from the notice to 19 produce and now anybody here floundering in the 20 dark, that they suggest there are other bases for 21 these lies -- these allegations of lies, I guess I 22 should say; that being I believe they said bribery, 23 extortion. I don't know, there may have been other 24 words. That extortion pertained to allegations of 25 criminal activity on Mr. Minton's part. 1013 1 I have searched through all of the depositions, 2 and I found what I would consider three areas that 3 have come up from time to time. And I'm not 4 necessarily even saying by the lawyers here, but I'm 5 saying he has been deposed by other lawyers. There 6 are three areas, one, whatever his business was in 7 Nigeria. It keeps getting raised either by Internet 8 or questions or what have you that there is some 9 thought of I'll say fraud -- I don't know if it is 10 fraud, money laundering is really what it is -- due 11 to his Nigerian activity. 12 Number two, that Mr. Rosen, in particular, from 13 time to time, apparently has suggested in court and 14 otherwise that there is some racketeering enterprise 15 of Mr. Minton being the hub of it. 16 And, three, that Mr. Minton isn't paying his 17 taxes. 18 So I think all three of those things are going 19 to be explored by the plaintiff to the extent that 20 I'll allow it as their view that there is this 21 motive behind this basis of coming forward and 22 suggesting that Mr. Dandar lied, and he said he 23 didn't. Therefore -- he said he didn't. Therefore, 24 Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks are lying and that is 25 another reason. Therefore, I don't think they can 1014 1 claim the privilege. 2 I feel different about Mr. Minton's returns. I 3 think he does have the privilege. I think his 4 lawyer has stated he's going to assert the 5 privilege. I think he's allowed to assert the 6 privilege. 7 I think that, as with any privilege assertion, 8 an adverse interest can be drawn, perhaps and 9 perhaps not. We'll deal with that at the 10 appropriate time. 11 But I think he has the right, I have allowed 12 him to assert the privilege. I don't think he's 13 waived that, in other words. And that has been my 14 ruling and I will consistently rule that unless he 15 waives it. 16 So -- 17 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court, I was also 18 speaking ahead of my written submission. I have a 19 courtesy copy and the original. Should the Court 20 get the original? 21 THE COURT: Oh, yes. 22 MR. HOWIE: That is your copy, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: The clerk needs to know, this is 24 not -- this is not for here, that is a filing. That 25 needs to be filed in the court file. 1015 1 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I would also point out, 2 just to keep the record clear, as to Item 6 in the 3 request for production of documents -- 4 THE COURT: Wait a minute. Let me just deal 5 with this return. Let's get that -- are you done 6 with the LMT? 7 MR. HOWIE: Yes, your Honor, at this point I 8 am. There is more to be said on privilege, however. 9 THE COURT: So as to the LMT return -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: The LMT is a separate entity. 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. McGOWAN: This is some sort of guilt by 13 association argument, I assume, by the plaintiffs. 14 If they are looking at Mr. Minton for these things, 15 why in the world do they need the LMT -- 16 THE COURT: Allegations have been made that 17 Ms. Brooks is kind of a figurehead; that Mr. Minton 18 was head of LMT; that -- matter of fact, it has been 19 cited by defendant on numerous occasions that LMT -- 20 as stated by a judge in this case, that LMT and 21 Minton are so intertwined that they're one in the 22 same. And also indicated that this lawsuit is. 23 Therefore, that the decision I presume would have 24 been made by Mr. Minton as to what amount of income 25 to put on the tax returns. 1016 1 So, you know, if you want some time to take up 2 the issue, you may have that time. But my ruling is 3 going to be it has relevance as to whether or not 4 the income -- purely that amount of income that I 5 know Mr. Minton himself has provided to LMT, 6 reported by them on the tax return. If not, perhaps 7 they'll inquire -- 8 MR. McGOWAN: As to Stacy Brooks then, your 9 Honor, I think that is a whole different issue. 10 THE COURT: As to her personal returns? 11 MR. McGOWAN: Her personal returns. 12 THE COURT: So we're done with LMT? 13 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. I'll turn that over. I 14 have it right here. 15 THE COURT: Let's talk about Ms. Brooks' tax 16 returns and especially five years of tax returns. 17 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, five years -- 18 THE COURT: Let's go -- we need to see if they 19 can establish relevancy. So let's just put it right 20 back to them and see what they say and we'll deal 21 with it. Why do you need Ms. Brooks' tax returns? 22 MR. LIROT: Judge, it is our position again 23 that significant amounts of money changed hands 24 between Mr. Minton and Ms. Brooks. Our concern is 25 basically that was not reported. I think she 1017 1 testified Mr. Minton was her sole source of income. 2 We don't know how much was given to her as a gift, 3 we don't know how much was given to her through the 4 LMT and we need to make sure that everything that 5 she's done has been reported properly so that that 6 couldn't be used as a point of leverage against her. 7 Same issue on relevance, Judge. I mean, it's an 8 important theory to us. 9 THE COURT: Why do you need five years? How 10 about 2000? If you are going to do some tracing 11 here, it would seem to me if you had LMT and hers 12 for 2000, that is about all you need. 13 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think that we would 14 like to see them from the point in time where she 15 started to participate in, I guess, preparing these 16 declarations in the other cases. Clearly there has 17 been certainly at least some testimony that she 18 certainly has been under some sort of surveillance 19 or, shall we say, investigation. 20 So I'm curious, I think it goes -- 21 THE COURT: I'll tell you, Counselor, I don't 22 know that because I have not seen her depositions. 23 I have seen Mr. Minton's depositions now. And 24 I made some notes, as I went through them, to see if 25 there were some sort of subtle mentionings of 1018 1 perhaps other criminal activity, and there clearly 2 was. I don't know which case it was in, but I 3 certainly know Mr. Rosen raised it upon occasion. 4 So that was my basis. 5 Where do they suggest that Ms. Brooks committed 6 some criminal activity? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think that in asking her 8 to recant all these declarations, basically it 9 accuses her of having made things up for several 10 years. So there is one. 11 THE COURT: Hasn't she already testified that 12 her motive here is not only to -- to -- naturally 13 her motive, she says, is to rid herself of all this 14 anxiety of the harassment that she received and the 15 harassment Mr. Minton has received. 16 But her motive was to -- and I'm not saying 17 this is an ill motive. Her motive in coming forward 18 was for her and Mr. Minton to be out from under what 19 she perceived to be oppression and not only -- I 20 believe it is kind of dual fold, but not only 21 harassment by the Church, but also the harassment 22 was the legal problems she found herself in because 23 she had perjured herself, Mr. Minton perjured 24 himself, and the discovery that the Court ordered 25 was closing in. And she needed to purge herself of 1019 1 that to get rid -- rid of the thought of going to 2 jail for perjury. 3 So she really expressed two motives here. I 4 have not heard anything that suggests that one of 5 her motives could be she was afraid of -- that the 6 defendant in this case was pressuring her because 7 she had not reported her taxes. I did see that in 8 Mr. Minton's return -- I mean in Mr. Minton's 9 deposition. 10 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, I think basically 11 because of the close relationship between Mr. Minton 12 and Ms. Brooks and some of the money that changed 13 hands between LMT and some -- I guess Ms. Brooks' 14 testimony was that she thought money was coming from 15 other sources. She didn't know where it was coming 16 are from. Basically we want to be able to look at 17 whether or not she received large sums of money, and 18 that might be one of the bases that Mr. Minton is 19 concerned with his tax issues. 20 THE COURT: Well, you don't know of any large 21 sums of money. She was paid by LMT $5,000 a month. 22 Right? 23 MR. LIROT: That is part of what she was 24 getting. Yes. 25 THE COURT: Well, what else was she getting? I 1020 1 mean, if she's having a relationship with a man and 2 the man is providing her money, that is not going to 3 be income in the traditional sense. She's not going 4 to have to report that on her return any more than a 5 wife would have to report moneys given to her by her 6 husband. 7 MR. LIROT: Well, respectfully, Judge, I think 8 that goes to the sum changing hands, if it's -- I 9 think if it is over $10,000, even if it is a gift, 10 it has to be reported. So we don't know. But we 11 think it's relevant and it is worthy of examination. 12 And certainly I think if the plausibility 13 argument is going to be one that, yes, Mr. Minton 14 has said this, I don't know that we can draw that 15 very distinct line between Mr. Minton's financial 16 concerns and Ms. Brooks' financial concerns. 17 I think that there is certainly a carryover. 18 Ms. Brooks has a very close relationship with 19 Mr. Minton. She seems to be intimately involved, or 20 at least aware of what his financial realities are. 21 And I think that might have carried over at least 22 into some of the tax returns that she might be 23 responsible to file. So ... 24 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, it's a bit of a 25 stretch to go from Mr. Minton to Ms. Brooks' tax 1021 1 returns. What I guess they are saying is that since 2 Ms. Brooks has recanted, therefore, she must be -- 3 THE COURT: Must lie on her income tax returns. 4 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, and let's fish through her 5 tax returns and see. 6 THE COURT: That is the problem I have. I 7 don't have a problem with Mr. Minton because I saw 8 in the depositions some subtle threats -- that is 9 too strong a word, some subtleties suggesting there 10 was some awareness he had not been completely honest 11 in his taxes. 12 MR. LIROT: Yes. 13 THE COURT: That is a motive for worrying about 14 a party and what they might know. You can explore 15 that except you cannot require him to testify. He 16 can claim the Fifth Amendment. I have not seen 17 that. If you have got it, show it to me. I'll give 18 you time to show it to me. I have not had the 19 benefit of looking at her depositions. 20 To be honest with you, unless I just have to, I 21 would like for somebody to point these out rather 22 than me have to read, myself. So if you have got 23 it, you find it. You show me where either whoever 24 took the deposition for the Church in this case or 25 this kinda sorta semirelated case suggested to her 1022 1 that they had information that she wasn't paying her 2 taxes. If you find that for the year 2000, I will 3 allow you to have her 2000 tax return. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. 5 THE COURT: Because I think if you had the LMT 6 tax return, you could see hers, see if they are 7 deducting it, if she's paying it, all that sort of 8 stuff. But if you can't find any subtle suggestions 9 that there is a thought here that she's not paying 10 her taxes, then I don't think that is relevant, 11 quite frankly. 12 MR. LIROT: We'll go through her depositions 13 and find that for you, Judge. 14 THE COURT: If you can find it. But even then, 15 I'm only going to require the 2000 return. Then you 16 look through the 2000 return, which you'll have from 17 LMT, you would have hers. If you find @ somewhat 18 you would consider to be gross distortion of income 19 reporting, then you can make another argument to me 20 and we'll see whether -- but the first thing that 21 has to be shown is that Ms. Brooks would have some 22 reason to believe that the defendant in this case is 23 subtly suggesting to her that they have information 24 that she's not reported her taxes correctly. 25 MR. LIROT: Understood, Judge. 1023 1 THE COURT: If you don't have that, then I 2 don't think that becomes -- I mean you can argue 3 that is a motive, but that is about all you can do. 4 So that is my ruling for now. I'm going to 5 grant your request not to turn those over, but I do 6 want you to have the 2000 return close at hand. If 7 they can find those same things that I believe would 8 allow them to make the inquiry of Mr. Minton and I 9 believe would allow him to claim the Fifth, she is 10 not going to claim the Fifth, is she? 11 MR. McGOWAN: No. 12 THE COURT: Then I would then permit them to 13 have that one year's return. Based on what they 14 would tell me if they had the one year's return, I 15 may or may not permit other years' returns. 16 MR. McGOWAN: That return I know is in Atlanta. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 MR. McGOWAN: Well -- 19 THE COURT: If she's coming back -- I don't 20 know when Mr. Minton will be done, but if she's 21 coming back, if she could bring it back. If she's 22 not coming back, she could send it to you with 23 directions, whatever her directions would be. 24 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Right now, I haven't asked it be 1024 1 produced. 2 MR. McGOWAN: Right. Okay. 3 THE COURT: But I think you ought to have it so 4 that if, in fact, that becomes an issue that I allow 5 them to have it, it's here and they can be turned 6 over. 7 MR. McGOWAN: All right. Your Honor, this is 8 the sixth day of her testimony. I have sat 9 silently. I understand @ somebody is recanting 10 perjury, the Court will have less patience with that 11 witness and it's perfectly understandable. But, you 12 know, trials come and go in six days, over -- 13 THE COURT: They sure do. 14 MR. McGOWAN: -- over issues and there has to 15 be some point -- I mean, this witness has been 16 subjected to a lot of repetitious examination, and 17 can we get some idea of how long this is going to go 18 on? I mean, this is -- you know -- 19 THE COURT: It sounded like yesterday morning 20 that Ms. Brooks had been well-advised by counsel 21 because, you know, what I saw, yes, no, yes, no. 22 Good counsel usually suggests to a witness, their 23 own witness, don't go into all kinds of discussion 24 here, just answer the question. I thought, "Wow." 25 Well, that all changed. I can't help that the 1025 1 witness goes on for fifteen minutes when a question 2 is asked. And nobody asked me to shut her off, and 3 I'm not saying improperly. But if everybody sits 4 there, I can't very well say, "Look, the question 5 has been answered a long time ago." 6 If he asks a question and she answers it yes or 7 no and then doesn't explain it, then he has to move 8 on to the next question. If he asks a question and 9 Ms. Brooks takes fifteen or twenty minutes to answer 10 it, and nobody steps up and says the question has 11 been answered, I'm -- you know, my hands are tied. 12 MR. McGOWAN: My observation was that starts to 13 happen around 2:30 in the afternoon, and I think 14 there is a reason for that, too. 15 (Discussion had off the record.) 16 MR. McGOWAN: You were talking about lengthy 17 answers, and I said they tend to come late in the 18 day. And -- later in the day. And I'm just trying 19 to get some idea. I know I spoke to Mr. Lirot 20 yesterday and he indicated he had a couple hours. 21 That was in the morning. And obviously we now have 22 a 23-page affidavit we're going to go through, and I 23 assume the tax return, which does have depreciation 24 schedules. 25 THE COURT: I can't imagine they are going into 1026 1 depreciation schedules. They may not ask her a 2 question. 3 MR. McGOWAN: I hope not. 4 THE COURT: I know what I would ask her and I 5 could ask her in ten minutes. But I tend to be a 6 different type of questioner than some of the 7 lawyers involved in this case. 8 MR. McGOWAN: I think less is more sometimes, 9 but that is -- anyway, I will tender the LMT tax 10 return. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. McGOWAN: And this is for the year 2000, 13 and we'll get the other one if we, indeed, need it. 14 MR. LIROT: Thank you, sir. 15 THE COURT: Let me see a copy of it. Let's 16 see, Mr. Minton, @ on is there more on him or can we 17 delay the rest of it until we get to his testimony? 18 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, just out of an 19 abundance of caution, since we were raising as to 20 item number 6, as long as I'm raising Fifth 21 Amendment privilege, I also wanted to go on record 22 as raising Fifth Amendment privileges to item number 23 6 requesting a copy of any and all bank statements 24 from all banking institutions utilized by Robert 25 Minton for the period of two years prior to the 1027 1 filing of this notice. 2 On the same grounds Mr. Minton intends to raise 3 Fifth Amendment privilege. We have previously 4 stated in our response that it's unduly burdensome 5 and not likely to lead to discovery of admissible 6 evidence. 7 What we failed to note in our written response 8 is that he will also be raising Fifth Amendment 9 privileges at that point. 10 That is all. 11 THE COURT: I think -- and as I said, I don't 12 know what the request to produce -- I haven't really 13 seen it, so maybe if I could -- I have seen the one 14 for Ms. Brooks, but I haven't seen one for 15 Mr. Minton. 16 If I could see it and if I could then see -- is 17 it attached to your response? 18 MR. HOWIE: No, your Honor, it is not. I just 19 assumed it had been filed, but I'm referring to -- 20 THE COURT: It may have been filed, but I don't 21 have it. 22 MR. HOWIE: I'm referring specifically to 23 number 6, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Did you see that number 6? 25 That is the request for bank statements from all 1028 1 banking institutions utilized by Mr. Minton for the 2 period of two years prior to filing of this notice, 3 he plans to take the Fifth Amendment regarding that. 4 MR. LIROT: Judge, I guess we'll have to 5 explore that when he decides to assert the 6 privilege, but we certainly would resubmit our 7 argument as to why we believe these materials would 8 be relevant. I don't know what options are 9 available to the Court. Maybe Mr. Minton's 10 testimony would have to be stricken if he's going to 11 take the Fifth Amendment -- 12 THE COURT: You know, Counsel, I'm always happy 13 to listen to argument. But that is legal argument 14 which I assume you will request at the right time. 15 What they told me now, he's asserting his Fifth 16 Amendment privilege and will not give those up. 17 And, therefore, I would suspect what you need to do 18 is ask your questions, see what happens, and if he 19 asserts the Fifth Amendment privilege, I'll not make 20 him give it up. 21 That would go to his income tax return. I 22 don't think he waived it. I think he has been 23 consistent in claiming his Fifth Amendment. And 24 I'm, frankly, not going to require him to give up a 25 very valuable right available to all citizens of 1029 1 this country, which I assume -- well, it's a 2 available to more than all citizens of this country, 3 but Mr. Minton can be afforded that right. 4 MR. LIROT: Understood, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: May I keep this? 6 MR. HOWIE: It is my only copy, Judge. 7 THE COURT: Is there anything else, Mr. Howie? 8 MR. HOWIE: Nothing further from me, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: I mean, are there other legal 11 matters? Are you going to produce the rest of what 12 they have asked? 13 MR. HOWIE: I have already provided some copies 14 and I made responses -- non-objection responses to 15 the rest of the items. 16 MR. LIROT: Judge, we are still curious about a 17 draft of any racketeering suit that may have been 18 presented, so apparently there was something 19 floating around. To that extent we are very curious 20 what might have happened to that. I don't know what 21 privilege would apply to that document. 22 THE COURT: It wouldn't be. But @ Mr. Howie 23 hasn't produced it, that means he doesn't have it. 24 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, our written response is 25 clear on that point. 1030 1 THE COURT: Am I right about that? 2 MR. HOWIE: That is correct. 3 THE COURT: You don't have it. You can explore 4 it. If Mr. Minton says otherwise, then you may ask 5 me to ask him, I would say that is relevant. 6 MR. LIROT: Fair enough. 7 THE COURT: But if there isn't one, then there 8 isn't one. 9 MR. LIROT: Understood. 10 Judge, I have just a couple of housekeeping 11 matters. I did manage to copy Exhibit 15, and I 12 have one for the Court and one for the clerk. And 13 since counsel provided -- 14 THE COURT: Did you ask for the copy of the 15 document that was provided by Mr. Rosen in federal 16 court that has the wheel with the spider in the 17 middle and -- 18 MR. LIROT: We think we have that, Judge. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. LIROT: We think we obtained that 21 previously. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. LIROT: So we'll ask questions about that. 24 But I have those. And just by way of scheduling, I 25 have a 1 o'clock conference call with a federal 1031 1 judge in Montana today. So if you could perhaps 2 just gear the lunch hour -- 3 THE COURT: If you'll remind me, I'll be happy 4 to. We'll take a 12:30 to 1:30 or something. Will 5 that work? 6 MR. LIROT: That would be great, Judge. I 7 appreciate that. 8 THE COURT: I try to accommodate counsel. I 9 had a call from Judge Beach, Mr. Moxon, maybe you 10 got a call from him. He had his plans, and I 11 suppose he spent his money already, but he had four 12 or five depositions. And I told him I didn't care 13 if you all were going to have enough lawyers to send 14 and do depositions, but I wasn't going to stop the 15 hearing because, frankly, the request was to dismiss 16 the charge and -- not the charge, the case. And if 17 the case were dismissed there was no need for the 18 depositions. So -- 19 MR. LIROT: This is definitely job one, Judge, 20 no doubt about it. 21 THE COURT: So he was going to call Mr. Moxon. 22 Has he called you? 23 MR. MOXON: No, but I'll call him at break, 24 your Honor. In fact -- 25 THE COURT: He was wanting to know if we were 1032 1 still going to be going next week. And I said, "Oh, 2 looks like it." So I would like for you to try to 3 finish up with this witness. 4 MR. LIROT: I'll finish her up -- I'll just 5 have her authenticate documents and I'll ask some 6 following up questions, and I'll do it as quickly as 7 I can. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. LIROT: Judge, I have two conflicts 10 tomorrow. I have cleared my calendar for Thursday 11 and Friday. I had other hearings. I actually asked 12 continuances of those. But tomorrow I have two 13 where there are many counsel involved, and I was 14 wondering if we could just have Wednesday off this 15 week and then pick it up Thursday and Friday. I 16 hate to put the Court or any of my colleagues at a 17 disadvantage. 18 THE COURT: I suspect they have things to do. 19 I expect if I gave them a day off, they would fill 20 it up. 21 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not sure where downtown 22 Tampa is anymore. I haven't been there in a while. 23 THE COURT: You are telling me these are not 24 things you can do just in an hour or something like 25 that? 1033 1 MR. LIROT: Well, Judge, there is one in the 2 morning in front of Judge Case and one in the 3 afternoon in front of Judge Arnold in Tampa. And 4 they have all -- the one in the afternoon involves 5 several other attorneys, and they may not take more 6 than an hour, but they will be peppered both in the 7 morning and in the afternoon. So I need to get 8 started -- 9 THE COURT: Will it hurt anybody's feelings if 10 I take tomorrow off? Okay, we'll just not be in 11 trial tomorrow. I'm still trying to reach Justice 12 Anstead -- he and I are missing each other -- to see 13 if he really needs me at that meeting on Monday, but 14 I suspect next Monday is out, too. Okay? Are you 15 ready? 16 MR. LIROT: Yes. That is it. 17 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks. 18 Good morning. 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, before we start I 20 would like to clarify something you said. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 THE WITNESS: With regard to my motive, I just 23 want to clarify that I believe my testimony was 24 that -- Mmm -- with regard to any harassment or 25 anything like that from the Church, that I may have 1034 1 felt I was being subjected to, you know, I have been 2 doing this work since 1993. And when we were going 3 through the harassment time line with Mr. Lirot, I 4 think I made it very clear that neither I nor 5 Mr. Minton were intimidated by those actions. It 6 was the concern that we had for the courts and for 7 the actions that the courts might take against us 8 that led to our coming forward. 9 THE COURT: I understand that, ma'am. But I 10 think that the innuendo is clear from counsel that 11 they're going to argue that is not true. They're 12 going to argue by your time line, by Mr. Minton's 13 having had this episode where he was getting all 14 distraught, that it had to do with the other 15 matters, including the harassment. In other words, 16 they quite frankly aren't going to tell me that what 17 you have said is true. 18 THE WITNESS: I understand. I just wanted -- 19 THE COURT: I'm saying that -- I'm suggesting 20 that is what I'm going to hear. I am not saying 21 anything of this I heard is true. Obviously they 22 are quite different allegations as to what is 23 motivating your testimony. Yours, and that 24 coincides with the defendant's, and there is the 25 plaintiff's. And they're very different. 1035 1 And so, trust me, I'm going to hear about the 2 fact that part of your motivation is this -- what in 3 your time line is huge harassment that you have 4 alleged. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes? 6 THE COURT: Despite what you are saying. Okay? 7 So I'm not saying it is true or not, but that is 8 what I am going to hear. So I said that was your 9 motivation. I don't know what your motivation is. 10 I have listened to this testimony and will 11 eventually have to evaluate credibility. 12 All right, Counsel. 13 MR. LIROT: All right. 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Ms. Brooks, I want to ask you a few more questions 16 about document retrievals and policies at the LMT. 17 Now, did I ask you if you gave any orders to shred 18 documents? 19 A I don't recall that you did. 20 Q All right. Were there any documents shredded at 21 the LMT at any time? 22 A Yes. 23 Q All right. Do you know what kind of documents 24 were shredded? 25 A Yes. 1036 1 Q All right. Can you tell me what those were? 2 A I received a notice in the mail one day in the 3 summer of 2001, I believe, from Mr. Rosen informing me that 4 the position that the Church of Scientology was taking was 5 that the Lisa McPherson Trust was a successor corporation to 6 FACTNet and, therefore, the Lisa McPherson Trust was -- they 7 would consider that the Lisa McPherson Trust was bound by 8 the -- by the settlement agreement Mr. Minton and I had 9 signed with regard to FACTNet. 10 And that included a -- I don't remember what the 11 term is for when you have to pay money if you violate a 12 settlement agreement. 13 THE COURT: Liquidated damages? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. That we would also be 15 subject to the liquidated damages clause of that 16 settlement if we were found to be in violation of 17 the settlement agreement, which included we were not 18 to have any copies of any copyrighted materials by 19 the Church of Scientology. 20 So I took that to be a precursor to a raid 21 that -- a similar raid that had occurred on FACTNet. 22 And I ordered everyone in the office to shred every 23 copy of any copyrighted material of the Church of 24 Scientology that they might have in their area. 25 And there was quite a bit. And -- 1037 1 BY MR. LIROT: 2 Q FACTNet was the Foundation Against Coercive 3 Tactics, is that what it stood for? 4 A Fight Against Coercive Tactics Network. 5 Q What was this raid you mentioned? What raid 6 occurred on FACTNet? 7 A Mmm, Church of Scientology obtained federal 8 warrants to conduct a raid or a search on the FACTNet office 9 based on their suspicion that FACTNet was in violation of 10 Scientology's copyrights. And, in fact, FACTNet was. 11 Q And you had copyrighted materials at the LMT? 12 A Yes. Very many copies of copyrighted materials. 13 Q And the settlement said you couldn't even have 14 them? 15 A Yes. It did. That is how I understood the 16 settlement agreement to read. Mr. Rosen attached a copy of 17 the settlement agreement to his letter, and I understood the 18 settlement agreement to say that we were not -- that 19 according to the settlement, copies of copyrighted materials 20 would -- could also constitute violation of copyright. 21 Q Is that disseminating them or just having them in 22 a drawer somewhere? 23 A You know, I'm not a copyright attorney and I'm not 24 sure and I didn't want to take any chances. 25 Q Were you and Mr. Minton personally identified in 1038 1 this settlement? 2 A Mmm, no. 3 Q Well, how is it -- you just didn't believe 4 Mr. Rosen that LMT is subject to FACTNet settlement? 5 A I thought in an abundance of caution it would be a 6 good idea to ensure that the LMT was also not in violation 7 of Scientology's copyrights. 8 Q What else was shredded? 9 A Mmm, that was the major shredding project that 10 occurred. Other than that, there were documents that were 11 shredded on a regular basis if they weren't needed. 12 Q Well, what type of documents? Telephone notes? 13 Things like that? I mean, did you do a lot of shredding at 14 the LMT? 15 A Yes, we did quite a bit of shredding. And I think 16 there were probably four shredders in the various offices. 17 Q Why was shredding such a popular activity in the 18 LMT? 19 A I wouldn't characterize it as a popular activity, 20 Mr. Lirot. 21 Q Okay. Well, how many people worked there? 22 A Mmm, eight at one time. 23 Q So that is one shredder for every two people. 24 Yes? Mathematically that seems to work out? 25 A Mathematically, I think your calculation is 1039 1 correct. 2 Q What is it you have to shred all of the time? 3 A Well, for example, I shredded pretty much 4 everything except the wrappers on, you know, a package of 5 paper or whatever. I shredded envelopes, any mail that I 6 got that -- that I wasn't going to keep. 7 Q Is the shredding being done to prevent Scientology 8 from going through your trash or getting these documents and 9 finding people that have come to LMT for help out of your 10 concern they might be harassed? 11 A Yes, in some part. 12 Q Now, did Mr. Minton tell you to shred these 13 materials? Or was that you? 14 A Mmm, I would say that was my decision. 15 Q Okay. Now, were you questioned in your deposition 16 about shredding documents? 17 A Yes. I believe you showed me a document yesterday 18 regarding that. 19 MR. LIROT: Judge, if I may change gears here. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q I'm going to show you what we'll have marked and 22 would like to introduce as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 16. 23 And this appears to be -- it is titled Minton Controls and 24 Finances. 25 MR. LIROT: And I have a copy for you, Judge. 1040 1 THE COURT: Is that an Exhibit Number? 2 MR. LIROT: Yes, this is Exhibit Number 16. 3 THE COURT: Thank you. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Do you recognize this document? 6 A Yes. This is the document that the judge referred 7 to as the spider web. 8 THE COURT: That is the one Mr. Minton referred 9 to, as I recall. He was in the middle and -- 10 THE WITNESS: He's the spider. 11 THE COURT: He's the spider. Right. 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q All right. And where did you first see this 14 document? 15 A In a hearing in a federal court in the Tampa area 16 when Mr. Rosen submitted it in a court case concerning Grady 17 Ward's bankruptcy. 18 THE COURT: Who submitted this, Mr. Rosen? 19 THE WITNESS: Mr. Rosen. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q Did this document find its way into the meeting on 22 the 28th or 29th or any of the subsequent meetings you had 23 with Scientology to work out this global settlement that you 24 have testified to? 25 A That is not my testimony. We weren't working out 1041 1 a global settlement. 2 Q Okay. Did this document come up at any of the 3 meetings that you had with Scientology since March 28th? 4 A No. 5 Q Not at all? Now -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you answer that? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. "No." 8 BY MR. LIROT: 9 Q Now, this document was presented in one context. 10 You said it was in Grady Ward's bankruptcy hearing. Did 11 Mr. Rosen just come up and hand it to you? Was it entered 12 into evidence in court? How did you come to be aware of 13 this document? 14 A Which of those questions do you want me to answer? 15 Q How did you become aware of this document? 16 A Mr. Rosen submitted it in court. 17 Q And he submitted it as an exhibit? 18 A I believe so. 19 Q All right. Were you in the court hearing when it 20 was submitted? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Who was Grady Ward? 23 A Grady Ward is someone who has been a critic of 24 Scientology and has been in litigation with Scientology. 25 Q Okay. In what way? Was he -- did he sue 1042 1 Scientology? Or did Scientology sue him? 2 A I believe Scientology sued him. 3 Q Okay. And for what? 4 A I'm not sure. 5 Q Okay. Well, what was Mr. Minton's relationship 6 with Grady Ward? 7 A What was his relationship? He was a friend. 8 Q Okay. Did he help Mr. Ward in defending the 9 litigation? 10 A He provided funding for it. Yes. 11 Q And I -- did he violate some settlement agreement? 12 I still don't know what the cause of action was between 13 Scientology and Grady Ward. 14 A Well, I can tell you what I do know. 15 Q Okay. 16 A There was some sort of settlement that was 17 reached. I'm not -- I'm not really sure what the litigation 18 was about, to be honest. But a settlement was reached. And 19 then there was an allegation that Mr. Ward had violated the 20 settlement. 21 I don't know that that was ever -- that a judgment 22 was ever made on that one way or the other. 23 Q Did Grady Ward work at the LMT? 24 A Yes. 25 Q For how long? 1043 1 A A year and a half. 2 Q What were his responsibilities? 3 A Mmm, as I said yesterday, he was responsible for 4 computer security. And security in the offices. 5 Q Did he ever counsel people that came in and said 6 that they were discontent with Scientology? 7 A No. 8 Q I see the next one, and I'll go around the wheel 9 here, clockwise. 10 The next one is Larry Wollersheim. And as I 11 understand it, he recently settled his case with 12 Scientology. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Is that a question? 14 BY MR. LIROT: 15 Q Do you understand that to be true? 16 A Mmm, I -- I understand that there is some sort of 17 resolution of the Wollersheim case, either that has happened 18 or is in progress. 19 Q Okay. Did you know Mr. Wollersheim personally? 20 A Yes. 21 Q For how long? 22 A Mmm, probably from 1995. 23 Q Okay. And what, to your knowledge, was 24 Mr. Wollersheim's case with Scientology? 25 A Mmm, I believe in 1984, sometime in the early 1044 1 '80s, Mr. Wollersheim sued Scientology -- 2 MR. FUGATE: I'll object to relevance, your 3 Honor, to this proceeding. 4 THE COURT: Overruled. 5 A Mmm, for intentional infliction of emotional 6 distress, I think. And he won a judgment. And there have 7 been various attempts on the part of Wollersheim to collect 8 and on the part of Scientology to pay him, as I understand 9 it. And finally I believe Scientology is -- has now paid 10 money into the court to resolve that case. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Did you file any declarations in Mr. Wollersheim's 13 case? 14 A Yes. 15 Q What about Gerry Armstrong? What was his 16 relationship with Mr. Minton? 17 THE COURT: I have a question just because of 18 something that has been raised, and I don't know if 19 you are going to get there or not, but I have a 20 question. 21 Did you attempt to withdraw your declaration in 22 the Larry Wollersheim case around the same time that 23 the discussions were occurring with the defendant, 24 the Church, in this case? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 1045 1 THE COURT: Okay. Why did you do that? I 2 mean, maybe you don't want me to ask that. I want 3 to know. The hearing is in front of me so I am 4 asking. 5 THE WITNESS: That is okay. I don't mind. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 THE WITNESS: Because I knew that we were 8 now -- we had initiated settlement. I knew that I 9 wanted to withdraw from litigation, generally, with 10 regard to Scientology. That is the only other case 11 that is still active in any way utilizing testimony 12 from me. 13 THE COURT: Did that case and this case -- you 14 were trying to withdraw from both cases? 15 THE WITNESS: That is it. Yes. 16 THE COURT: So it wasn't -- I don't know what 17 you submitted, I don't think. Was it the affidavit 18 I saw the other day? The declaration, was that the 19 affidavit? 20 THE WITNESS: I'm not sure which one you mean. 21 It was -- it was a 1997 declaration. And what was 22 happening was Mr. Leipold was -- I think it was a 23 proffer that he was making to the Court -- 24 THE COURT: I think this is the one that was 25 provided to me, and it's in evidence in this case. 1046 1 This is a declaration dated December 14, 1994. 2 THE WITNESS: No. It's not this one. 3 THE COURT: So that is not the one. Some other 4 declaration? 5 THE WITNESS: It's some other declaration. 6 Apparently it's a 1997 declaration. 7 But it had already been filed. And then I 8 understood that Mr. Leipold was going to proffer my 9 declaration to the Court for some reason. And I 10 asked him not to proffer. 11 THE COURT: And it's my understanding he 12 refused to do that? 13 THE WITNESS: He proffered it regardless of my 14 request. 15 THE COURT: Some disagreement as to whether it 16 had already been done or not, as I recall from the 17 documents that have been submitted? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes. 19 THE COURT: In any event, the request was that 20 he withdraw it if it had been filed. He refused to 21 do that, said he couldn't do that to his client or 22 something? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: You weren't trying to withdraw it 25 because it was false; you were trying to withdraw it 1047 1 because you didn't want to be filing affidavits 2 against the Church and trying to settle at the same 3 time? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. And also 5 because I had had my attorney review the declaration 6 and he had said that -- Mmm -- he was very surprised 7 that the declaration -- I'm not supposed -- 8 MR. McGOWAN: Privilege, your Honor. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, after consultation with my 10 attorney, I had -- I felt that there might be things 11 in the declaration that -- Mmm -- 12 THE COURT: You really better be careful 13 because you start talking about things, you may 14 waive the privilege. He asserted it, suggested 15 maybe you might want to assert it, so we'll let that 16 go. 17 THE WITNESS: Okay. 18 THE COURT: You didn't withdraw it because it 19 was false; you didn't say, "I lied in that 20 declaration, I could be charged with perjury" or 21 anything like that. 22 THE WITNESS: No, I didn't do that, but I said 23 there were things in the declaration that I wouldn't 24 be able to substantiate and that I didn't have 25 personal knowledge of. 1048 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. LIROT: 3 Q As far as Gerry Armstrong, he's the next person. 4 What was his relationship with Mr. Minton? 5 A Mmm, Mr. Minton had sent him money for support, 6 and Mr. Armstrong had used quite a bit of that money to file 7 a lawsuit against Scientology. 8 Q Wasn't he named as a defendant in a suit where the 9 Scientologists sued him, apparently? 10 A You mean the recent suit? 11 Q Yes. 12 A I believe you were given a copy of that suit. 13 Q Right. 14 A I believe it speaks for itself. 15 Q How many suits are involving Mr. Armstrong and the 16 Church? 17 A That is the only one I know. 18 Q Just the most recent one? 19 A Well, there have been earlier ones that they have 20 settled. 21 Q Okay. And but what was his relationship with the 22 Church? 23 A He's a former Scientologist who is very 24 disaffected. 25 Q Okay. 1049 1 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 2 THE WITNESS: Very disaffected. 3 BY MR. LIROT: 4 Q What was it that brought him into court with 5 Scientology, other than being disaffected? 6 THE COURT: What is the relevance of that? 7 MR. LIROT: Judge, what I'm trying to find out 8 is on what basis does Mr. Rosen use this in court 9 and what is the concern with these people. And I 10 think what we're going to establish here is most of 11 these people, rather than being offensive or 12 plaintiffs against Scientology, most of them are 13 defendants which are trying to defend themselves in 14 lawsuits which are brought by the Church. 15 THE COURT: Okay. I'll allow it. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q What was Mr. Armstrong's beef with Scientology, if 18 I can frame it that way? 19 A Mmm, well, there is quite a history. Originally, 20 he left Scientology in '81. He took a lot of documents -- 21 copies of a lot of documents with him. Church sued him for 22 theft of documents. They lost that suit. 23 I believe Mr. Armstrong then sued them. And I 24 believe that it was his lawsuit against Scientology that was 25 the subject of his settlement which I believe was in 1986. 1050 1 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor, my teeth are 2 chattering. 3 THE COURT: Do you want some coffee? I think 4 we have coffee. 5 THE WITNESS: I think that would make it worse. 6 Could we take a little break? 7 THE COURT: All right. We can do that. We'll 8 be in recess for fifteen minutes. 9 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 10 _______________________________________ 11 THE COURT: All right, you may continue. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q Ms. Brooks, I think when we left off we were 14 talking about Gerry Armstrong and what action he had with 15 the Church. 16 A I believe I answered that question. 17 Q Well, I don't recall your answer, if you can 18 repeat it for me. I'm sorry. 19 THE COURT: I think she answered it. Didn't 20 she? 21 MR. McGOWAN: She did, your Honor. 22 BY MR LIROT: 23 Q Do you know what the status of Mr. Armstrong's 24 present case is? Has he filed an answer or anything? Do 25 you know where that is at? 1051 1 A I have no idea. 2 THE COURT: Look, there is a suit that has been 3 filed against Mr. Armstrong, LMT, I believe, or 4 perhaps this witness and Mr. Minton. We're all 5 aware of that. 6 MR LIROT: Yes. 7 THE COURT: In that suit, which I have read, 8 they discuss some suits that Scientology had against 9 Mr. Armstrong and judgments that the court 10 apparently has imposed for contempt, and this is 11 another whatever it is, it speaks for itself. 12 Apparently he's on the lamb or he moved out of 13 the country, and there are contempt -- another 14 contempt being considered by the Court. I mean, 15 what is it else we need to know? That is a matter 16 of record. It has been filed, I think, as an 17 exhibit in this case. 18 MR LIROT: It has, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Is there more than that? 20 MR LIROT: No. I'll move along. 21 BY MR LIROT: 22 Q The next name we see here is Jesse Prince. Why is 23 Mr. Prince involved in this wheel? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Objection. 1052 1 THE COURT: Yes, unless she knows. Do you 2 understand this wheel? 3 THE WITNESS: Mmm, your Honor, I understand 4 that this is a drawing of people that Mr. Minton has 5 helped financially. 6 THE COURT: You understand -- well, maybe you 7 don't. Mr. Minton has seen this. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And Mr. Minton has called this 10 something. At least he called it something I have 11 read. What does he call it to you? 12 THE WITNESS: Mmm, an enterprise chart that -- 13 THE COURT: What does the word "enterprise" 14 signify to you? 15 THE WITNESS: RICO. 16 THE COURT: RICO, racketeering. 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Being an enterprise, and that there 19 is some illegal activities going on, presumably. I 20 don't know if I could even define RICO to you. 21 Whenever I read it to a jury I'm thinking, "Oh, my 22 God, if they understand it, it's remarkable." 23 But you know it's a crime. 24 THE WITNESS: Yes. 25 THE COURT: And so Mr. Minton apparently is in 1053 1 the middle here, and there is some allegation, and 2 he understands it as an enterprise. 3 So I guess the question really is what would 4 Mr. Prince's connection be, if you know, to whatever 5 this is all about? 6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, your Honor -- 7 THE COURT: Is that what you are trying to get 8 at? 9 MR LIROT: Yes, Judge. 10 THE WITNESS: What I -- I can tell you what I 11 know, which is Mr. Minton has supported Jesse Prince 12 since the summer of 1998. 13 BY MR LIROT: 14 Q Why would that be problematic as far as 15 racketeering concerns? 16 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, objection, this is 17 outside of her knowledge. 18 THE COURT: I think that is true. I think the 19 problem we have here is that this is something that 20 if she knows what Mr. Minton's concern is about it, 21 then I think she can answer that. If she doesn't, I 22 think we'll have to wait for Mr. Minton. 23 THE WITNESS: Mr. Minton doesn't have a concern 24 about this. 25 1054 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Okay. Well, isn't it true that Mr. Minton funded 3 a criminal case involving Mr. Prince? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, this has been asked 5 and answered at least a dozen times. 6 THE COURT: I don't know if that has or not, to 7 be honest with you, so I'll allow that to be asked. 8 BY MR LIROT: 9 Q Didn't he pay for Mr. Prince's criminal defense -- 10 THE COURT: I have seen it. I saw it in 11 something just -- 12 THE WITNESS: I testified to it, too, your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: The affidavit. 15 THE WITNESS: I have testified to it. 16 THE COURT: If you testified to it, then you 17 don't have to repeat it. Even I forgot, it has been 18 so long. 19 THE WITNESS: I understand. 20 THE COURT: So if I say I don't think I have 21 heard it, that doesn't mean you haven't said it; it 22 just simply means it has been a long number of days 23 and -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: -- I can't remember everything you 1055 1 said. You would remember better than I would, I'm 2 sure. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Vaughn Young's name is on there. Why would his 5 name be on there, do you know? 6 MR. McGOWAN: Again, over and over again, we 7 have some chart that Mr. Rosen who is somewhat 8 flamboyant in his presentations put up in federal 9 court someplace. Why he put it there is -- is 10 something outside of this witness's knowledge. 11 MR LIROT: Judge, I want to know what her 12 knowledge is as to these people that are identified, 13 what she knows about them and why she thinks they 14 would be on this chart. 15 MR. McGOWAN: That is calling for speculation. 16 If he wants to know who these people are, I think 17 we've been around this -- 18 THE COURT: I tell you what I'm going to do. 19 I'm going to suggest she knows these people, and if 20 there are any of them she doesn't know, she can tell 21 us. And so she would probably know the same thing 22 about any moneys provided by Mr. Minton. Why don't 23 you save it for him? 24 I mean, do you know these people? I have heard 25 about most all of these people myself. 1056 1 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, I know these 2 people. 3 THE COURT: These are all people -- maybe I'm 4 wrong. Are these all people that are perceived -- 5 people or corporations like FACTNet, LMT, that are 6 perceived to be -- I hate to use the word "enemies," 7 but whatever word you might want to use it of the 8 opposition to the Church? 9 THE WITNESS: Anti-Scientologists. 10 THE COURT: Anti-Scientology people? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Either anti-Scientology people, or 13 anti-Scientology companies like -- 14 THE WITNESS: Correct. 15 THE COURT: -- like LMT, FACTNet. There is one 16 here that I don't think I have heard about, and that 17 is Courage Productions. I don't know what that is. 18 Could you tell me that? Because I know myself and 19 can deal with this. 20 THE WITNESS: Courage Productions is a company 21 that Mr. Minton owns the majority, 50 percent, of; 22 and two other people, Peter Alexander, Patricia 23 Greenway, some amounts of each. I don't know what 24 their amounts are each that they own, but it's the 25 company that was created to make that film, 1057 1 "Prophet." 2 THE COURT: Then I know what that is about. So 3 we know -- we all know what this is and you can 4 refer to it in argument. What exactly is it that 5 you want this woman to testify about? 6 MR LIROT: Just what she knew about this 7 document and what she understood it to represent, 8 Judge. So I think that has been established at this 9 point. 10 I just have -- obviously -- I don't know who 11 Dennis Erlich is. That's a new one. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q Who is Dennis Erlich and why is he on this chart, 14 if you know? 15 A Dennis Erlich is a former Scientologist. Why he's 16 on this chart, I don't -- 17 THE COURT: Did Mr. Minton provide him money? 18 THE WITNESS: I think Mr. Minton provided him 19 with a small amount of money. 20 THE COURT: Is it assumed, since all these -- 21 these are all around Bob Minton, are all these 22 dollars, is it assumed Mr. Minton in one way or 23 another provided funds of some sort to all these 24 people? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, that is what I think this 1058 1 chart represents, is that people that either -- that 2 Mr. Minton either has given money to or that 3 Scientology thought he had given money to. 4 THE COURT: I suppose -- and nobody will agree 5 with me on this -- but I suppose racketeering says 6 you take illegal money and put it into -- you 7 launder it through a legal source, perhaps. I don't 8 know if that is it or not. 9 THE WITNESS: Is that what it is? 10 THE COURT: Yes, in other words, if you have 11 got some illegally obtained money, such as the 12 allegations of some illegal money coming out of 13 Nigeria -- 14 THE WITNESS: Uh-huh? 15 THE COURT: -- and you launder it through 16 something that is legitimate, legal, sort of -- 17 MR. WEINBERG: It could be the other way, too. 18 Take legitimate funds and use it for illegal 19 purposes. 20 THE COURT: That is right. Take legal money, 21 put it out for illegal purposes or take illegal 22 money and put it out for legitimate purposes, and 23 either of those can amount to a racketeering charge. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Or you can take illegal money 25 and use it for illegal purposes and that could be 1059 1 racketeering. 2 MR. DANDAR: Or not have any money at all. 3 THE COURT: But a racketeering -- normally when 4 you use the word "enterprise," you think 5 racketeering. 6 THE WITNESS: Well, I wasn't real clear on what 7 that meant. But -- but in any case, what Mr. Rosen 8 was bringing it up for in that particular hearing 9 wasn't that. He was bringing it up in that 10 particular hearing -- 11 THE COURT: What was the hearing? What was 12 going on? 13 THE WITNESS: It was about trying to collect on 14 the -- what is that thing called when you -- Mmm, 15 when you violate your settlement? There is 16 something kind of judgment? 17 THE COURT: Liquidated damages? 18 THE WITNESS: Yeah. Liquidated damages. The 19 hearing was about the liquidated damages that 20 Scientology wanted to go after Mr. Ward for based on 21 their allegation that he had -- Mmm -- violated the 22 settlement agreement. 23 And the purpose of this, as I understood it, 24 why Mr. Rosen was bringing this up, was to try to 25 convince the court to let them go after the money -- 1060 1 go -- go to Mr. Minton for the money since Grady 2 Ward didn't have the money. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 THE WITNESS: So ... 5 THE COURT: But Mr. Minton has referred to this 6 as an enterprise chart with him in the middle and 7 the -- the spider in the middle and all of the arms 8 going out. 9 THE WITNESS: Right. 10 THE COURT: So clearly he understood this was 11 in some fashion, in his mind, being used as a 12 suggestion of racketeering? 13 THE WITNESS: Right. 14 MR LIROT: Judge, could I ask for continued 15 permission to approach the witness with something in 16 my hand? 17 THE COURT: Yes, you may. 18 BY MR LIROT: 19 Q Ms. Brooks, I think you earlier testified that you 20 were the one that maintained the LMT website? 21 A Are we done with this now (indicating)? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Excuse me, what did you say? 24 Q You testified that you helped maintain the LMT 25 website. Is that correct? 1061 1 A No. 2 Q All right. So -- 3 A I don't know how to maintain a website. 4 Q Well, you had some declarations posted on the 5 website. Is that correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q All right. I'm going to hand you one that is 8 dated September 9, 1993. And I think on the website it was 9 entitled "Stacy Brooks' Declarations." Does that look to 10 be -- under the heading Scientology versus Fishman dated 11 September 9, 1993. 12 Does that look to be -- there are many copies 13 there. I'll just give you the one. I'll hand it back to 14 you. 15 MR LIROT: Judge, we're going to want to 16 introduce this as Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 17. 17 THE COURT: All right. Do you have copies for 18 everybody? 19 MR LIROT: Yes, we do, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Well, here is one with holes in it. 21 Is there a notebook? 22 MR LIROT: Judge, we had them three-hole 23 punched and took them out. We'll put it in a 24 notebook if you want us to. 25 THE COURT: No, I was just being a little 1062 1 facetious. I'm sorry. 2 THE WITNESS: This isn't a Fishman affidavit. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Do you know what affidavit it is? 5 A Or declaration? 6 Q Do you know what affidavit? 7 A It likes like a declaration in the Sterling case 8 written for Dan Leipold. 9 Q But is it your declaration? 10 A Yes. 11 Q All right. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, the one we have is 13 not executed. Is there an executed copy somewhere? 14 MR LIROT: Judge, we took these off the 15 Internet, and they were represented on the Internet 16 to be the declarations of Stacy Brooks. 17 THE COURT: I think she can tell us if she 18 executed it. If she did, the fact we don't have a 19 signed copy is not of import. 20 MR. WEINBERG: It just came off the Internet? 21 So this is where they got it? 22 MR LIROT: Yes. 23 THE COURT: I mean, if this is a declaration is 24 what he's asking her. 25 MR LIROT: If it's her declaration. 1063 1 THE COURT: If she submitted this as a 2 declaration similar to an affidavit in another case, 3 and she indicated that she had. 4 MR LIROT: That is correct. 5 THE WITNESS: I don't believe it was executed 6 for the Sterling case. 7 BY MR LIROT: 8 Q Let me hand you one -- 9 THE COURT: You are moving to introduce it 10 then? 11 MR LIROT: I am moving to introduce it. 12 THE COURT: Any objection? 13 MR. FUGATE: No. 14 THE COURT: It will be received then. 15 BY MR LIROT: 16 Q Ms. Young, this is a November 23, 1993 declaration 17 that we got off the LMT website. 18 MR LIROT: And, Judge, I want to move this as 19 Plaintiff's Exhibit Number 18. November 23rd, 1993. 20 THE COURT: Any objection? 21 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, is this for the 22 purpose of authenticating that this stuff came off 23 the website? 24 THE COURT: The purpose of this, I'm sure, is 25 to say is this true or is it a false declaration. 1064 1 MR. McGOWAN: Well, then that is not best 2 evidence. That is something off a website. I think 3 she can say this came off a website. But unless she 4 has the actual declaration next to it, I mean, she 5 would have to go through it word for word. If she 6 pulled it off the website and the website said that 7 is a declaration, and she said that is her 8 declaration, that is one thing. 9 THE COURT: Well, you know, the truth of the 10 matter is if we find out where it is, we can go to 11 all of the trouble, I suppose, of having to go out 12 there and ask the Court to send us one and certify 13 it and the whole person. 14 The best person who would know if this is her 15 declaration is the witness. If she can tell us it 16 is, that's good enough. If she can't, then it can't 17 come in as a declaration and they'll have to get it 18 from the Court file. 19 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, what I can tell 20 you is I believe this is somewhat similar to a 21 declaration that I filed. But it's not -- it is 22 not -- I mean, there are many, many -- what it looks 23 like happened is that this was scanned and that it 24 wasn't ever corrected. You know how when you scan a 25 document, it gets goofed up? 1065 1 THE COURT: Right. You're talking now about 2 the same thing that you referred to in the 3 declaration that has already been introduced that 4 has kind of misspellings and some bad grammar and 5 some stuff that doesn't make any sense, as far as -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 7 THE COURT: -- spellings and things? 8 THE WITNESS: Spellings, and -- so I can say 9 that this is similar to a declaration that I filed, 10 but this is definitely not the declaration that I 11 filed. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, would that be also 13 for 17, as well? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. Well, the one right 15 before that? If it was 17, yes. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 THE COURT: Other than the misspellings and 18 this type of thing, are these the declarations? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, let me just finish looking 20 through it for a second. 21 THE COURT: Sure. 22 MR. FUGATE: Well, Judge, let me just record an 23 objection if I may. I'm just getting these handed 24 to me and I haven't finished reading 17 and I 25 haven't gotten to 18. And the only -- I understood 1066 1 the Court wanted all of the declarations that she 2 has filed. I have no problem with that. 3 But as to whether or not -- 4 THE COURT: No, I didn't ask for all of the 5 declarations she filed. 6 MR. FUGATE: Oh, I thought you did. 7 THE COURT: I asked for the affidavits she 8 filed in this case. 9 MR. FUGATE: Okay. I'm sorry. I apologize, 10 Judge, I misheard that. But the point I want to 11 make here -- 12 THE COURT: This case, meaning our case, I 13 understood from reading whatever I was asked to read 14 that she had filed three affidavits. And I wanted 15 them. And I have now received them. 16 MR. FUGATE: All right. 17 THE COURT: This is being introduced into this 18 case -- I mean, this hearing -- 19 MR. FUGATE: Well, the Court made a comment a 20 moment ago, I assume they are introducing them 21 because they are going to ask if these are true. I 22 haven't even had a chance to read them. I don't 23 know if they are accurate. I don't know if I'll be 24 cross-examining on them, if that is the purpose they 25 are being introduced for, but I'll have to have time 1067 1 to do that because I was looking at what you said 2 yesterday, which was the affidavits that pertained 3 to the case. So that is my objection to them being 4 admitted unless there is some -- 5 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. These 6 are declarations filed under oath. She said she 7 committed perjury in this case. I think this Court 8 needs to know whether she committed perjury or 9 whether these are true affidavits. She signed them 10 under oath. I think that is the purpose for which 11 he's introducing them. If there is some other 12 purpose, let me know. Is that what you're 13 introducing them for? 14 MR LIROT: Exactly correct, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: Then we need to know whether it is 16 false or true. It is relevant for this proceeding. 17 Your objection is overruled. All we need to know 18 is, other than misspelled words, this is a 19 declaration or whether there is a need to go to the 20 court where it has been filed and get the 21 certificate from the clerk and bring those 22 declarations here, in which case we would have to 23 bring Ms. Brooks back. 24 MR LIROT: Understood. 25 1068 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm -- this one actually has a caption 3 dated January 3, 1994, and it looks to be church versus 4 Fishman. 5 MR LIROT: Judge, we would like to introduce in 6 as Plaintiff's Exhibit 19. 7 THE COURT: You can't introduce them unless she 8 authenticates them. In other words, if these were 9 declarations she filed in the court proceedings, 10 which we understand declarations, I didn't know 11 before this hearing a declaration is the same as our 12 affidavit which is an under-oath filing. 13 THE WITNESS: I think the difference is that a 14 declaration doesn't have to be notarized. 15 THE COURT: But it -- 16 THE WITNESS: But it's under oath. 17 THE COURT: It still needs to be under oath. 18 MR. DANDAR: The Florida Statutes provide for 19 declarations, as well. 20 THE COURT: Does it? I'm just used to 21 affidavits, I guess. 22 MR. DANDAR: To my surprise, yes. 23 BY MR LIROT: 24 Q Again, with your statements about misspellings and 25 perhaps some problems with scanning the documents, does this 1069 1 look to be the declaration that you filed in this case that 2 was identified on the LMT website? 3 A Just one minute. 4 MR. FUGATE: I impose the same objections. 5 She's obviously not reading them, and if that is the 6 purpose they are introducing them for, I think she 7 has to read and authenticate them. 8 THE COURT: I agree with that, and I think if 9 she would like to say she would like to have time to 10 look at these, I will give her that time. She can 11 take the lunch hour or whatever to look at them to 12 see if the only problem with them are the 13 misspellings or whatever. I think that is fair. 14 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think that would be good. 15 But I don't want to slow this process down. So if 16 you would be willing to let me review them at 17 lunch -- 18 MR LIROT: That will be fine. 19 THE WITNESS: Then move on to something else. 20 But I don't want to now waste another hour and a 21 half of your time. 22 MR LIROT: Well, then, Judge, let us mark them 23 then and tender them and she can review them over 24 lurch hour. 25 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. 1070 1 THE COURT: Fine. Give them to the clerk so 2 they are all to be marked, and if they are to be 3 authenticated -- well, maybe we can just ask this. 4 Have you ever filed a false affidavit or declaration 5 that you know of? 6 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 7 MR LIROT: Then, Judge, I think certainly these 8 are relevant as either a prior consistent statement 9 or a prior inconsistent statement. 10 THE COURT: Counselor, I have already indicated 11 they are admissible. However, we're going to have 12 to let her have the opportunity to see if this is, 13 in fact, what she filed. These are -- I mean, these 14 are the kind of things I take home at night and read 15 because they're too lengthy. 16 MR LIROT: Understood, Judge. 17 THE COURT: I don't want this woman to say, 18 yes, this is it and it's true, then find out six 19 weeks down the road that here is a page that is 20 absolutely not a part of her affidavit, she never 21 submitted it. It's not fair to her, to me, to you 22 all, to the Church or anybody. 23 MR LIROT: We're not going to quibble with 24 that, Judge. 25 THE COURT: If that is the purpose, then I can 1071 1 presume we can let her read them at the lunch hour. 2 In the interim, if there is some specific thing you 3 want to ask about any one of them, you can ask. I 4 hope we're not going through these paragraph by 5 paragraph. 6 MR LIROT: No, Judge. I just want to 7 authenticate these. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR LIROT: All right? 10 THE COURT: So you may have the lunch, take it 11 with you. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, thank you, your Honor. We 13 can go on to other things in the meantime? 14 THE COURT: I hope so. 15 MR LIROT: I marked this as Exhibit 20. 16 BY MR LIROT: 17 Q This is your January 8, 1994 -- what appears to be 18 your January 8, 1994 declaration. 19 A And the same thing holds true for this? 20 Q Yes. 21 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, could we get the 22 whole file? I imagine there are a number -- 23 THE COURT: Yes, if you have more, let's have 24 them all. She can look at them overnight if they 25 are too big. 1072 1 MR LIROT: A lot of declarations, Judge. 2 THE COURT: Let's do them all. Give her the 3 whole pile. 4 MR. DANDAR: You have to announce which ones. 5 THE COURT: I know. 6 MR LIROT: Why don't I approach the witness and 7 give them all and I'll try to distribute these 8 efficiently, Judge. 9 THE COURT: All right. 10 MR LIROT: We would like this marked as 21. 11 This is February 3rd, 1994. 12 THE COURT: Is this the fourth one? 13 MR LIROT: Judge, I'll make you -- I'll key 14 which ones they are. 15 MR. WEINBERG: This is the fifth one. 16 THE COURT: I lost one. 17 MR. WEINBERG: 9/9/93. 17, 9/18 -- 18 THE COURT: Wait. Wait. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 20 THE COURT: Wait, Counsel. 9/9/93 was the 21 first one. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, that is 17. 23 THE COURT: Next. 24 MR. WEINBERG: 9/18/93. 25 THE COURT: That is the one I know you gave it 1073 1 to me but I cannot find it. 2 MR. DANDAR: That was November 23rd. 3 November 23rd, 1993 is 18. 4 MR. WEINBERG: All right. So it is 9/23/93. 5 THE COURT: 11/23. 6 MR. WEINBERG: 9/23. 7 MR. DANDAR: 11/23. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, 11/23. 9 THE COURT: 11/23/93 is next. 10 MR. WEINBERG: 1/3/94. 11 THE COURT: Got that. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Then -- 13 THE COURT: 1/8/94. I have them all then. 14 MR. WEINBERG: All right. 15 THE COURT: This one will be the fifth one. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q This is February 3rd, 1994. This is February 21, 19 1994. It appears to be a declaration of Stacy Brooks Young. 20 THE COURT: Do you know what case that was used 21 in? 22 THE WITNESS: Mmm, let me just look at it for a 23 minute, your Honor. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: Oh, well, it says -- let's see -- 1074 1 this is in the Fishman case. 2 THE COURT: Fishman? 3 THE WITNESS: It says so in the second 4 paragraph. 5 THE COURT: Do I have that, Counselor? 6 MR LIROT: Judge, I'm actually breaking these 7 up. I'll write the numbers on them so we keep them 8 in order. 9 THE COURT: Good. 10 BY MR LIROT: 11 Q All right, this is the March 9, 1994 appears to be 12 declaration of you, Ms. Young. 13 THE WITNESS: This is also in the Fishman case, 14 your Honor. 15 MR LIROT: This is March 22nd, 1994. This 16 appears to be in the Fishman case, as well, there is 17 a caption on this March 22nd, 1994. 18 This is December 14, 1994. 19 Judge, we've already entered this one in. She 20 already authenticated the December 14, 1994 one. 21 THE WITNESS: When did I do that? 22 THE COURT: One of the first days. I have got 23 it right here. 24 THE WITNESS: But, your Honor, if it came off 25 the Internet, I wish I would still be allowed to 1075 1 have a chance to look it over. 2 THE COURT: Okay. I think you already did. I 3 mean, I think he went over this one in some detail 4 with you. 5 THE WITNESS: Really? 6 MR LIROT: I believe so. 7 THE COURT: This was the one you indicated was 8 true but there was a slant on some things in favor 9 of the -- 10 THE WITNESS: I don't remember it exactly. 11 Okay. 12 MR. WEINBERG: So that has already been marked 13 so we're not putting a new number on it? 14 MR LIROT: No, we are not. We are leaving that 15 one out for now. 16 THE WITNESS: But could I have a copy just to 17 look at it? 18 MR LIROT: If you would like a copy, I'll give 19 you a copy. 20 MR. FUGATE: Just for my records, what number 21 did it come in as then? 22 MR. McGOWAN: 24. 23 THE COURT: No, it came in earlier, like an 24 earlier number. 25 MR. FUGATE: Could I just approach the clerk? 1076 1 THE COURT: Sure. 2 Give her a copy of it. 3 MR LIROT: Sure. 4 THE COURT: I don't need a copy of it. And you 5 all -- 6 THE WITNESS: You gave me two. 7 MR LIROT: Did I? I'm sorry. Sorry about 8 that. 9 THE COURT: What number was it? 10 MR. FUGATE: 14. 11 THE CLERK: 14, Judge. 12 THE WITNESS: Oh, this is the -- 13 THE COURT: I totally lost any numbering system 14 I ever have. I have no idea what is any number. 15 BY MR LIROT: 16 Q This one appears to be Kisser versus Chicago 17 Crusader dated December 1, 1994. 18 (A discussion was held off the record.) 19 BY MR LIROT: 20 Q All right. This one just has a date of 21 September 1994 and heading declaration of Stacy Brooks. 22 MR. McGOWAN: This one is 26? 25? 23 MR. DANDAR: 25. 24 MR. WEINBERG: I thought 11/1/94 was 25. 25 THE COURT: Where are these things posted? 1077 1 MR LIROT: They are on the LMT website under 2 "Stacy Brooks Declarations." 3 THE COURT: Is that still up and running? 4 MR LIROT: I think it's down now, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry to interrupt. I 7 thought I heard 11/1/94, the Kisser thing, was 25. 8 Right? 9 MR. DANDAR: Right. 10 MR. WEINBERG: What you just showed her was 26? 11 September of '94? 12 MR. DANDAR: That is 26. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Is there a more specific date? 14 MR LIROT: No, heading just says 15 September 1994. I don't have a specific date on 16 that. 17 MR. WEINBERG: So that is 26? 18 MR LIROT: Correct. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 20 BY MR LIROT: 21 Q This is another document declaration of Stacy 22 Brooks Young March 13, 1997. 23 This is another one, a document that -- 24 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, could Counsel please 25 give the number so that we can keep track of this? 1078 1 Because he just keeps saying, this, this and this 2 and it will not make a record. 3 MR LIROT: That was 27. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 MR LIROT: All right? 6 BY MR LIROT: 7 Q This will be Number 28, declaration of Stacy 8 Brooks June 12, 1999. 9 THE COURT: Are we finding out what -- what 10 cases these had to do with? 11 THE WITNESS: I'm -- I'm not able to identify 12 some of them, your Honor, as far as what case they 13 were filed in. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 MR LIROT: Judge, I believe on the website it 16 identifies what case they are in, so once she looked 17 at them, if she doesn't have the information she 18 needs, we might be able to refresh her memory with 19 the designations on the website because it indicates 20 what case they were involving. 21 THE COURT: I thought the website wasn't up and 22 running? 23 MR. DANDAR: It is. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 MR. DANDAR: It switched Internet service 1079 1 providers, apparently. 2 BY MR LIROT: 3 Q This last one just says, "Declaration of Stacy 4 Brooks on DM." I hand you that. It doesn't appear to have 5 a date in the heading. 6 A Well -- 7 THE COURT: DM -- versus DM? 8 BY MR LIROT: 9 Q It says, "Declaration of Stacy Brooks on DM." 10 A There is no signature line or anything on this. 11 THE COURT: Just for now, just take them -- 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 THE COURT: She'll not be able to review all 14 those at lunch. 15 MR LIROT: I understand, Judge. 16 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I'm a little lost here. If 17 they're going to be offered as true, I guess that 18 means we're going to have to go through them 19 ourselves and then decide if we are going to 20 cross-examine if we believe anything is false in 21 them? 22 I mean, I would object to them as being 23 irrelevant and nothing collateral to the matter 24 because they are not an issue in this case, as I 25 understand it. 1080 1 THE COURT: Anything that this lady has lied 2 about in any other cases at issue, if she filed 3 something else under oath that is a lie, I need to 4 know about it. Because that has -- bears on her 5 credibility. So either it's a lie or it's the 6 truth. If it's the truth, then it bears on their 7 argument that is going to be whatever it is they're 8 going -- 9 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking because I have to 10 decide what we have to do -- 11 THE COURT: Right. 12 MR. FUGATE: -- because I haven't read them, I 13 have to go through them at this point. 14 THE COURT: I obviously haven't, either. 15 MR. FUGATE: All right. Thank you, Judge. 16 MR LIROT: Judge, I'll hand these up to the 17 Court. 18 THE COURT: I mean, there may be some that have 19 no relevance at all. I don't know. I'll let you -- 20 you can't -- we don't have the time right now -- 21 MR. FUGATE: I can't respond yet. 22 THE COURT: But for now, I'm going to assume 23 that they're being introduced to ask her whether 24 they are true or whether she lied under oath. 25 MR. FUGATE: I understand your point. I'm 1081 1 trying to get in my mind what I'll be doing -- 2 THE COURT: Maybe we'll get a clue -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 4 THE COURT: But let's -- what is it -- if they 5 are true, what are you going to -- 6 MR LIROT: I want to know, if these are 7 authenticated by her, I want to know what is true 8 and what is false in these affidavits, these 9 declarations. 10 THE COURT: Oh, brother, we may have trouble 11 with that. 12 MR. McGOWAN: I think the Court asked her are 13 all of the declarations you filed in this case true. 14 She said yes. So I think the point has been made. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Well, seems like she needs to 16 read them. 17 THE COURT: Yes, I guess so. Look at this. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Right. I mean, before she's 19 answering questions as to whether they are at this 20 point true or false, I think she needs to go through 21 them. 22 THE COURT: Well, I mean, I think she can tell 23 us whether she ever filed a false affidavit. Surely 24 anybody that filed a false affidavit would be able 25 to readily tell us about it. I mean, when you 1082 1 file -- one should not file false, affidavits and if 2 one does, you would think you would remember it. 3 MR LIROT: All right. 4 THE COURT: So if she said yes, these are her 5 affidavits and yes, they pertain to these cases, 6 then I'm going to have to know what the relevance is 7 and then we'll let you tell us what is relevant and 8 then they'll be introduced. If, in fact, they're 9 true and there is no relevance to them, then I'm 10 going to have them taken out. 11 MR LIROT: Fair enough, Judge. 12 THE COURT: If they are false, they are 13 relevant. No question about it. If she testifies 14 any one of these are false, they are in. That is 15 relevant. 16 MR LIROT: Very good. 17 THE COURT: If she testifies they are true, 18 then you, Counselor, are going to have to tell me 19 why a true affidavit has relevance to this hearing. 20 And I'll let you do that. I don't know what her 21 answer is going to be because she -- although she 22 said they're all true, in fairness, I think -- I 23 think you need to take a look at them -- 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, thank you. 25 THE COURT: -- and read them and then we'll go 1083 1 from there. 2 MR LIROT: Very good, Judge. 3 MR. McGOWAN: So for now 17 through I think 28 4 are marked for identification only? Is that right? 5 THE COURT: Yes. This Number 14 has been 6 introduced and it is relevant to matters in this 7 hearing. 8 MR. McGOWAN: And that is also 24 which didn't 9 come in so we skip a number. 10 THE WITNESS: Which one is that, your Honor? 11 THE COURT: That is this one, ma'am, where it 12 talks about that Mr. Rinder -- 13 THE WITNESS: Oh, that is the one -- 14 THE COURT: -- asked you all -- you and your 15 husband to come in and perjure yourself by stating 16 under oath some lawyer lied. 17 THE WITNESS: That is the one that was 18 submitted earlier? 19 THE COURT: Yes. Well, you asked for a copy of 20 it? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: You are welcome to have it, but it 23 has already been admitted. That is in for 24 relevance, but I have already determined it is 25 relevant and nobody objected to it so we are not 1084 1 going to spend a lot of time on it. 2 THE WITNESS: But it is true I never really 3 read the whole thing. 4 THE COURT: What he asked you about it and 5 asked you if it was true, you already testified 6 about. 7 THE WITNESS: Okay. 8 THE COURT: If you want to change that 9 testimony, well, then you can do that. But as far 10 as I'm concerned, you want to avoid looking at one 11 of these, you may avoid looking at that one because 12 it is in already. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 14 THE COURT: But always you want to correct 15 something that you said is false. 16 THE WITNESS: Okay. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, I'm going to go ahead and hold these 19 other declarations and documents marked for identification 20 and abate any questions on those for the time being. 21 Do you have a copy of your affidavit of April 29, 22 the one that was marked as Exhibit 72, I believe, to the 23 omnibus motion? 24 A Yes. 25 Q I would like to go through that with you at this 1085 1 point, if I may. 2 THE COURT: Before you do that, how about these 3 extra copies -- any reason why I need this? I don't 4 need this. I'm going to throw these in the 5 wastebasket, in other words, if nobody claims them. 6 MR. WEINBERG: That is the Hague Convention? 7 THE COURT: The Hague Convention? 8 MR. MOXON: That is fine, your Honor. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Shred them. 10 THE COURT: They are going to be shredded right 11 now. They're going in the wastebasket. Here we go. 12 Continue, Counsel. 13 Oh, I'm sorry, I found those as I was looking 14 for the affidavit. Let me find that, before you 15 begin. 16 Do you have your affidavit? 17 THE WITNESS: I have a copy. 18 MR. WEINBERG: That is the second affidavit? 19 MR LIROT: This is the second affidavit. 20 THE COURT: That is the long affidavit, right? 21 MR LIROT: The long one, Judge, we'll refer to 22 it as. I believe the affidavit was signed on 23 April 29, 2002. 24 THE COURT: Are you going to be talking about 25 the small affidavit? 1086 1 MR LIROT: No, Judge, I think we've already 2 gone through that one. 3 THE COURT: You have? Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: In the thick notebook, it is 5 Exhibit 72, if you can't find a copy of it. 6 THE COURT: I found it. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 8 THE COURT: Okay, I have got it, the witness 9 has it, we all have it. This is the affidavit that 10 she dated -- or I shouldn't say she -- that the 11 notary dated 4/29/02. A 17-page affidavit. Is that 12 it? 13 MR LIROT: That is it, Judge. 14 THE COURT: All right. And this is the last 15 thing we're going to cover with this witness. 16 Right? 17 MR LIROT: After those declarations are cleared 18 up, that is it. 19 THE WITNESS: My answers are going to be real 20 short, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR LIROT: See, we are all taking the advice 23 given, Judge. 24 BY MR LIROT: 25 Q Ms. Brooks, this affidavit, I think you already 1087 1 testified, was the product of, I guess, your initial draft 2 and was produced in meetings with, I guess, Ms. Yingling and 3 some other people, is that -- 4 A Incorrect. 5 Q -- correct? 6 A That is incorrect. 7 Q All right. You did meet with Ms. Yingling in 8 producing this? Or did she just type it for you? 9 MR. McGOWAN: Asked and answered. 10 MR. FUGATE: Objection. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Judge -- 12 THE COURT: Sustained. She already did this, 13 Counsel. If you have more questions about this 14 preparation, but you have covered this. And that 15 was not what I recall her testimony being. 16 BY MR LIROT: 17 Q Was it you that decided to put in all this 18 information about background, I guess there is a heading 19 here, "Background"? 20 MR. McGOWAN: Asked and answered. 21 THE COURT: I'll allow it. If he's going 22 through the affidavit, I don't remember about the 23 headings. It has been so long. That was one of the 24 first days. 25 A Well, just to try to shortcut this a little bit, 1088 1 it was my decision to put in all of the information that is 2 in it, including any paragraph that you wanted to ask me 3 about specifically, all of it was my decision. 4 THE COURT: I think what he's asking you about 5 specifically, I think what he was talking about, you 6 see up here where it says "Background" and then 7 there is one later that breaks out -- 8 THE WITNESS: Oh, the headers? 9 THE COURT: The headers. 10 THE WITNESS: I do headers. It's my habit. 11 Those are my headers. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q Okay. I think that you talk about some of the 14 background that you had I guess in Paragraph 2, you talk 15 about you being contacted by Dan Leipold and Graham Berry? 16 A I believe it speaks for itself. 17 Q Okay. How did they find you, Mr. Leipold and 18 Mr. Berry? 19 A Mmm, I had occasion to meet a woman who was 20 involved in an anti-cult organization and Mr. Leipold was 21 her attorney. 22 Q Who was the woman? 23 A Her name is Priscilla Coates. 24 Q And did she have any involvement with Scientology? 25 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, we covered all this. 1089 1 THE COURT: We did? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, your Honor, the first day. 3 Her whole dealings, how she got into the -- how she 4 got into the business with Leipold and the 5 witness -- 6 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't remember it, but 7 if you say we did, and if -- did we cover this, 8 Counselor? 9 MR LIROT: I don't remember covering anything 10 about Ms. Coates, Judge. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. McGOWAN: All right. 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I wish I could help you 14 out here. If he said it is covered -- I don't 15 remember. 16 BY MR LIROT: 17 Q I think my question was did Ms. Coates have any 18 discontent with Scientology? 19 A She was involved in a lawsuit -- her organization 20 was involved in a lawsuit having to do with Scientology. 21 Q Okay. What organization was that? 22 A The Cult Awareness Network. 23 Q And how did you come to meet Ms. Coates? 24 A Mmm, a former Scientologist met with me and my 25 husband and introduced us to her. 1090 1 Q You were out of Scientology at that point, I take 2 it? 3 A Yes. He was involved in anti-Scientology 4 litigation. 5 Q I guess your next paragraph talks about you were 6 paid by -- 7 THE COURT: I don't want you to read now, 8 Counselor, what it says. It says what it says and 9 it's in the record. Ask her questions about it, if 10 you want to. 11 MR LIROT: I will, Judge. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q There is a statement in here that says attorneys 14 wanted to know what they could do to put pressure on 15 Scientology to get a case dropped or get a large -- 16 THE COURT: Counselor -- 17 MR LIROT: I'm just laying foundation, Judge. 18 THE COURT: There is no foundation to be laid. 19 Ask her a question about it. She can read. I can 20 read. Do you want to say, "Read Paragraph 2? I 21 have got a question"? 22 BY MR LIROT: 23 Q All right, read Paragraph 3. I have a question. 24 THE COURT: I thought we were on Paragraph 2. 25 MR LIROT: I moved on, Judge. 1091 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR LIROT: Blinding pace here. 3 THE COURT: What paragraph are we on? 3? 4 MR LIROT: We're on 3. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 BY MR LIROT: 8 Q All right. Now, it says there you had -- the 9 overall strategy that you developed was to target David 10 Miscavige because he was the head of Scientology. Okay? 11 How did you develop that strategy? Was that completely made 12 up by you? 13 A I believe we covered this earlier, but I will 14 cover it again. 15 There was a case that I was familiar with from 16 when I was in Scientology in which it was a successful 17 strategy by a party to target L. Ron Hubbard. 18 Q Who was the head of Scientology then, right? 19 A Yes. So at this time when I was being paid to do 20 this work, David Miscavige was head of Scientology. 21 Q Okay. And I think you testified something to the 22 effect that Mr. Hubbard didn't like to have his deposition 23 taken. Do you remember saying something to that effect? 24 A No. 25 Q So I guess my question to you is, it says you have 1092 1 known -- you read paragraph -- "I have no knowledge or 2 evidence of any involvement of Mr. Miscavige in the cases." 3 "In the cases." You knew him to be the head of Scientology. 4 Isn't that correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Okay. Paragraph 4, I'll cut right to the chase, 7 right in the middle it said you wrote affidavits and 8 declarations based on these theories. You'll have an 9 opportunity to read the declarations. I guess I'll ask if 10 those relate to your statement here in Paragraph 4. 11 A It -- 12 MR. WEINBERG: You want her to read it? Is 13 that what you're asking? 14 MR LIROT: No, I'll get back to that. I'm 15 going to give her a chance to read those 16 declarations first. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q Now, you make a statement, "Use supposition and 19 careful wording to make allegations that would fit the 20 particular assertion." 21 Is that what you did in this affidavit? 22 MR. McGOWAN: In which affidavit? 23 A In which affidavit? 24 BY MR LIROT: 25 Q In the April 29 affidavit? 1093 1 A Oh, no. 2 Q So you didn't use any supposition or careful 3 wording in this one? That is just basically the affidavit 4 that you want this Court to look at? 5 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, she answered it and 6 he asked it again. 7 THE COURT: No, I think that is fair. I think 8 what he's saying is she used this approach in all 9 these other affidavits, is she also using that same 10 approach in this affidavit. 11 This affidavit, ma'am, meaning the one you just 12 filed in this case that we're really here, what 13 brought us here -- 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think when you read 15 this fairly large stack, you'll see that there is 16 quite a bit of supposition and careful wording in 17 them. It was my job. I was being paid to do it. 18 Now I have written an affidavit to set the 19 record straight. It's -- it was, to the best of my 20 ability, an attempt to communicate without trying to 21 put any kind of slant on it one way or the other. 22 THE COURT: I don't have to read the between 23 the lines here? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: And it is straightforward, as far 1094 1 as you are concerned? 2 THE WITNESS: To the best of my ability, your 3 Honor. 4 MR. MOXON: For the record the stack she's 5 talking about are the -- 6 THE COURT: We're talking about this affidavit. 7 MR. MOXON: But she just -- 8 THE WITNESS: But the stack is the stack of 9 declarations that I'm assigned to read tonight. 10 MR. MOXON: Okay. 11 THE COURT: And that -- those affidavits are 12 the ones that she's referring to in here -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. 14 THE COURT: -- on theories and use supposition 15 and careful wording to make allegations that would 16 fit the assertions that would create an impression 17 without actually lying. 18 THE WITNESS: Yes. And I think when you read 19 these, you'll see what -- 20 THE COURT: Oh, I shall look forward to taking 21 this home tonight and reading. I'm being facetious 22 again. 23 THE WITNESS: I know. 24 THE COURT: All right. I don't want that 25 misconstrued on the record. 1095 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Now, you talk about supposition and careful 3 wording. 4 MR LIROT: Judge, if I could approach the 5 witness. 6 THE COURT: You may. 7 BY MR LIROT: 8 Q I would -- 9 MR LIROT: I would like this marked for 10 identification as Number 28. 11 MR. DANDAR: We already have 29. 12 MR. WEINBERG: We already have 29. 13 MR LIROT: 29. 14 MR. WEINBERG: We have 29. 15 MR LIROT: 30. All right. 16 THE COURT: Do you know, sometimes it is really 17 good if you are going to have a hearing if you mark 18 your exhibits in advance, put little tags on them. 19 BY MR LIROT: 20 Q Do you recognize this as an E-Mail sent from you? 21 MR. WEINBERG: What is it? 22 A I need to look it over for a minute, please. 23 THE COURT: What does PGP mean? I have seen 24 this before. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, its an encryption 1096 1 program. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't even know what 3 that is. 4 THE WITNESS: Well -- 5 THE COURT: Go ahead. 6 THE WITNESS: -- it's a computer program that 7 you can use to -- when you write an E-Mail message, 8 if you don't want it to be able to be intercepted 9 and read by someone else, you can use this program 10 called -- it stands for pretty good privacy, PGP. 11 And what it does is it turns your message into 12 gobbledygook, which the person at the other end of 13 it then needs to also have PGP to translate it -- 14 THE COURT: Unscramble it. 15 THE WITNESS: Unscramble it. 16 THE COURT: Apparently it doesn't work. 17 THE WITNESS: Well, there is also a function of 18 PGP that allows you to sign a message -- if you see 19 in the beginning it says PGP sign message, then at 20 the end -- well, they have taken off the PGP 21 encryption at the end. But this is a way for 22 someone to be able to tell that it was really signed 23 by the person that it says it is from. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: Or -- or I mean that it was 1097 1 really written by that person. 2 BY MR LIROT: 3 Q Ms. Brooks, let me draw -- 4 A Could I just look it over for a minute, please? 5 Q You certainly can. I'm sorry if I'm rushing you. 6 Take your time. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Is this an E-Mail, or a posting? 8 THE WITNESS: It's a posting. At the top of 9 the head of the page it says -- 10 THE COURT: Take your time reading it because 11 I'm reading it, too. 12 THE WITNESS: Why is this paragraph red? 13 BY MR LIROT: 14 Q Pardon me? 15 A There is a paragraph that is the color red. 16 THE COURT: I don't know what you are talking 17 about. Is there a red paragraph? 18 THE WITNESS: Yes, see, look, it is red. 19 THE COURT: I haven't gotten -- I'm only on 20 Page 2. I don't even understand it, but go on 21 ahead. Have you had a chance to read it, ma'am? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, I have. 23 THE COURT: Go on ahead. I'll catch up with 24 you all. 25 1098 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q I just want to draw your attention to the 3 paragraph, I believe it is fifth paragraph starts with 4 "Yesterday." 5 MR. WEINBERG: On which page is that? 6 MR LIROT: I'm sorry? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Page 1? 8 MR LIROT: It is on my Page 2. It must be on 9 your Page 2. 10 MR. FUGATE: We only have one between 11 Mr. McGowan and myself. 12 MR LIROT: It begins, "Yesterday the 13 Scientologists sent a letter." 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Yeah. 15 BY MR LIROT: 16 Q And did you make this posting? Is this something 17 you put on the Internet? 18 A As I recall, I did. 19 Q All right. And I think the second sentence of 20 that fifth paragraph says, "Although it was signed by Frank 21 Ofman, it was obviously written by one of Scientology's 22 attorneys." 23 Do you know Scientology's attorneys to prepare 24 documents for other people to sign in this fashion? 25 A No. 1099 1 Q Why would you say something like that in your 2 posting? 3 A Well, as I think I testified about quite often, 4 I -- at the time this was written, it says it was 5 December 17, 1998, it was my job to create the worst 6 impression possible of Scientology at every possible 7 opportunity. And that is what I was doing in this post. 8 Q Who were you working for on December 17, 1998? 9 A Mr. Minton. 10 Q And I guess the last sentence in that paragraph 11 says: "Apparently, a classic example of Scientology's slick 12 seductive manipulation of the truth." 13 Did you mean that when you wrote it? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And did you know that to be true when you wrote 16 it? 17 A Mmm, well, this is a posting on the Internet, not 18 an affidavit. 19 Q Did you know that to be true when you wrote it? 20 A You know -- 21 MR. FUGATE: Objection to the interruption, 22 your Honor. 23 A I'm not required to sign -- you know, to swear 24 under oath for a posting on the Internet. The purpose -- 25 MR LIROT: Judge, I move to strike as 1100 1 nonresponsive. It's just a yes or no question. 2 THE COURT: That is true. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q "It's a classic example of Scientology's slick 5 seductive manipulation of the truth." 6 Did you know that to be true when you posted it in 7 1998? 8 MR. FUGATE: Objection as an opinion. 9 THE WITNESS: Excuse me? 10 THE COURT: I think he's only asking her 11 whether she believed this to be true when she wrote 12 it, I guess. 13 A No. 14 BY MR LIROT: 15 Q Okay. Go down -- I would like to draw your 16 attention down to the paragraph that begins with: "I was in 17 the Guardian's Office." Skip the one that said: "We 18 picketed for an hour." 19 Go down to: "I was in the Guardian's Office." 20 Would you read that paragraph, please. 21 A This is the red one. Do you know why it is red? 22 Q We must have highlighted it for some reason. 23 THE COURT: I don't even know how to do that. 24 You can highlight something and it comes out red? 25 MR LIROT: Apparently so, Judge. I don't know 1101 1 how to do that, either, but -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Your first statement there, "I was in the 5 Guardian's Office in the Office of Special Affairs for 6 eleven years. And all that time I never saw -- I was in the 7 Guardian's Office and the Office of Special Affairs for 8 eleven years and in all that time I never saw anyone 9 targeted for elimination as relentlessly as Bob is being 10 targeted by Scientology." 11 Well, what does "targeted for elimination" 12 mean? 13 A Well, in this case Mr. Minton was already, by '98, 14 involved in funding quite a bit of various litigation in 15 which Scientology was involved. And it was my impression 16 that they were doing everything they possibly could to 17 dissuade him from continuing to fund their adversaries. 18 Q Well -- 19 A And -- and to dissuade him from being an adversary 20 himself. 21 Q Well, dissuading somebody from funding does not 22 seem to be targeted for elimination. Those are very strong 23 words. 24 MR. McGOWAN: He's arguing with the witness. 25 THE COURT: Pardon me? 1102 1 MR. McGOWAN: He's arguing with the witness. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 MR LIROT: Judge, I would like this introduced 4 into evidence as Number 30. 5 THE WITNESS: So we're done with this one? 6 MR LIROT: We're done with this one. 7 THE COURT: Any objection? 8 MR. FUGATE: I just object to relevance based 9 on what she just testified to. 10 THE COURT: I think the relevance is that I 11 suspect, as I indicated earlier, part of their 12 argument is going to be part of the motive for what 13 they are going to say is fabrication is the extreme 14 harassment that was going on of Mr. Minton. 15 I'm not saying that is true, but if you read 16 her declaration, of the 52 pages -- which, by the 17 way, I read every word -- which she said that was 18 accurate, slanted perhaps, but accurate, they are 19 going to suggest one of the motives to have them 20 come in and lie, which is what they're going to 21 suggest, is to stop the harassment. This is 22 relevant to that harassment. 23 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, did you say you read 24 a 52-page declaration? 25 THE COURT: No, I'm sorry, I read your 52 pages 1103 1 of the time line on harassment of Mr. Minton. 2 THE WITNESS: Oh. Okay. 3 THE COURT: I'm not sure why. I just read it. 4 And I kept reading it and I kept thinking, "Maybe I 5 can stop." But I would just pick it up and read it 6 some more. So I finally realized I was ten pages 7 from the end and I thought, "I'm going to finish 8 this." 9 THE WITNESS: Well, I take that as a compliment 10 on my writing, so -- 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 BY MR LIROT: 13 Q I'm going to get into the McPherson wrongful death 14 case section, I think that begins with Paragraph Number 7. 15 A Which document are we on now? 16 Q Our affidavit of April 29. 17 A Okay. 18 THE COURT: Actually, it was in that 19 affidavit -- I'm sorry, not that affidavit. It was 20 in that time line of Scientology's harassment of 21 Robert Minton where I saw quite a few indications of 22 the Nigerian discussion. 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, that is true. 24 THE COURT: When I said I read that a few 25 places, it may have been a few places in there, 1104 1 although I do believe I read it in one of his 2 depositions. 3 THE WITNESS: Well, it was definitely in the 4 time line. 5 THE COURT: Yes. 6 BY MR LIROT: 7 Q Now, please read Paragraph 7 of your April 29 8 affidavit. 9 THE COURT: So, Mr. Fugate, that is the 10 relevance and therefore I'm going to allow him to 11 get it in. 12 MR. FUGATE: I heard you. 13 THE COURT: I don't know what the relevance is. 14 I'm assuming -- I mean, we are all lawyers, 15 everybody seems to know where we are going. We just 16 seem to be slow in getting there. 17 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: What paragraph, Counsel? 19 MR LIROT: Paragraph 7, Judge, under the 20 heading "The McPherson Wrongful Death Case." 21 BY MR LIROT: 22 Q Now -- 23 A Excuse me? 24 Q I'm sorry. 25 A Okay. 1105 1 Q Isn't it true that Mr. Dandar was more 2 communicating with Vaughn Young at this time than you? 3 A No. 4 Q Weren't you reluctant to even become involved in 5 this case, in the Lisa McPherson case? 6 A Mmm, at that time I was moving away from any work 7 in litigation. But I was -- I did speak to Mr. Dandar and I 8 did work on this case -- 9 Q All right. 10 A -- because he specifically wanted my help because 11 of my specific qualifications technically. 12 Q All right. Well, wasn't it Mr. Young that 13 participated with Mr. Dandar in the drafting of the first 14 amended complaint, and not you? 15 A It was both of us. 16 Q Well, didn't Mr. Young have some information about 17 how the hierarchy of, I guess, people in power in 18 Scientology was laid out. 19 A Yes. 20 Q Wasn't it Mr. Young that basically taught 21 Mr. Dandar how that hierarchy worked, who was in charge, who 22 was second in command and those types of things? 23 A It was both of us. 24 THE COURT: Since we're on that paragraph, I 25 had a question about that. 1106 1 This apparently was sent to -- this, according 2 to your affidavit, occurred in May of 1997. This 3 letter that was written. 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: That was before Mr. Dandar ever met 6 Mr. Minton. Isn't it? 7 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I'm not sure if it was 8 before he had met him. But it was before he had 9 begun funding the case. 10 THE COURT: I believe that the testimony is and 11 has been that it was October of 1997. 12 THE WITNESS: That is possible, your Honor. 13 And I had never met Mr. Minton at this point, 14 either. 15 THE COURT: So, in fact, in May of 1997, before 16 Mr. Minton was ever involved, Mr. Dandar wrote a 17 letter saying: "I'm enclosing a copy of the 18 proposed amended complaint. I intend to sue 19 Mr. Miscavige." 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 MR. FUGATE: I would just correct the Court's 22 impression. I think in Mr. Minton's affidavit he 23 talks about meeting Mr. Dandar and Mr. Wollersheim, 24 I think it was, in the -- 25 THE WITNESS: In 1996. 1107 1 THE COURT: Okay. We'll see. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Specifically, he said a meeting 3 in March of 1997 in Clearwater. 4 THE WITNESS: Oh, March. 5 MR. WEINBERG: In a hotel room. 6 THE COURT: Where Mr. Minton didn't say a word. 7 THE WITNESS: Right. 8 THE COURT: When was the first check written? 9 MR. WEINBERG: October. 10 THE COURT: Of what? 11 MR. WEINBERG: 1997. 12 THE COURT: And the allegation of Scientology 13 has been, at least if I read everything you have 14 given me correctly, is right after that check was 15 written, bingo, we have a first amended complaint. 16 Right? 17 MR. FUGATE: Right. 18 MR. WEINBERG: In December of 1997, right. 19 THE COURT: And by golly, that is when the 20 Church was starting to be attacked because 21 Mr. Minton wanted it attacked. Right? Am I -- did 22 I not read what you wanted me to read correctly? 23 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 24 MR. FUGATE: You read it correctly. 25 THE COURT: And here, in May of '97, before 1108 1 October of '97, a letter is being written saying, 2 "I'm enclosing a copy of the proposed amended 3 complaint." Then it says, "I intend to sue David 4 Miscavige." 5 I mean, that is what I wrote on my margin. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Right, and Mr. Minton explains 7 in his affidavit basically a discussion, I think, at 8 the meeting in March that he was silent at but that 9 he was participating in, a discussion of strategy 10 including Mr. Miscavige. That is what he said, I 11 think, in his affidavit, but I don't have it in 12 front of me. 13 THE COURT: We'll hear your argument. That is 14 a benefit for you you don't normally get. That is 15 what I wrote down and I starred it. I thought it 16 was fairly important. 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, Mr. Minton had argued 18 in front of Mr. Wollersheim. And I believe it was 19 Mr. Wollersheim that brought Mr. Dandar in contact 20 with Mr. Minton. 21 THE COURT: Don't try to show bias here, ma'am. 22 I will give the lawyers the benefit of my thinking 23 here. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay, sorry. 25 THE COURT: And you don't need to help one side 1109 1 or the other. 2 Now, also another little note here, since we're 3 on that paragraph. 4 You were the expert consultant, whatever it is, 5 it says, "Mr. Dandar hired me as a consultant expert 6 witness." Right? 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. 8 THE COURT: He's asking you -- he's paying -- 9 was he paying you at that time? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: That is what you do with a 12 consultant and expert, you ask. "I don't know much 13 about this. I need some help here." Right? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: He asked you, as a consultant, as 16 an expert, to help him out. Right? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. 18 THE COURT: And what did you tell him? 19 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I told him -- well, 20 generally, I told him things that I thought would 21 help him. 22 THE COURT: Well, here is the question, this is 23 to you, I guess, would Mr. Miscavige have personal 24 knowledge of those in isolation and their condition, 25 and your answer was? 1110 1 THE WITNESS: That he might. 2 THE COURT: And you are the expert. Right? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: And based on that, he takes the 5 advice of his expert and files a lawsuit. Maybe. 6 All right. Move on. 7 MR LIROT: All right. 8 BY MR LIROT: 9 Q The last sentence says you couldn't have -- "I 10 could not possibly have any personal knowledge of what had 11 happened to Lisa McPherson." 12 Nobody asked you about any personal knowledge, did 13 they? 14 A Nobody -- 15 Q About what happened to Lisa McPherson. You 16 weren't there. Nobody could ever have asked you about that. 17 Right? 18 A Mmm, I don't recall if he asked me about that. 19 But it was clear that I didn't. 20 THE COURT: I mean, fair is fair. And 21 Mr. Dandar may be guilty of lying or suborning 22 perjury or guilty of committing perjury himself, but 23 it does seem to me when a lawyer hires and pays 24 for -- a lawyer for expert advice and they ask them 25 a question, that they are allowed to rely on their 1111 1 advice. It seems to me. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Well, it all depends what they 3 are relying on and what the advice is, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: I understand that. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: The lawyer is not allowed to 6 make allegations of intentional murder based upon 7 somebody saying, "Well, it might have happened." 8 And that was addressed in the memorandum we filed 9 today. No matter what the expert says. The expert 10 can't speculate and say, "Well, yeah, that might 11 have happened and yes, you could make an allegation 12 of that because maybe it might have happened." You 13 have to have evidence, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: We'll hear your argument at the 15 proper time. I'm just suggesting to you when you 16 hire an expert, you have got to be able to rely on 17 your expert to some extent. Maybe there are certain 18 things you can't do. But that is where you go get 19 this information. There is no allegation here that 20 Mr. Dandar ever was, has been or ever will be a 21 Scientologist. She has. 22 MR LIROT: Very good. 23 THE COURT: And her husband has. And Jesse 24 Prince had. 25 1112 1 BY MR LIROT: 2 Q Ms. Brooks, let me draw your attention to 3 Paragraph Number 8 and ask if you can read that paragraph. 4 A Okay. 5 Q All right? This so-called strategy that you had 6 developed, you had not developed any strategy; you knew all 7 of what you put in those declarations to be true. Isn't it? 8 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor, all of 9 those statements in the declarations to be true, he 10 gave her 15 declarations -- affidavits. 11 THE COURT: Are you referring to those you gave 12 her to look at? 13 MR LIROT: Everything that she has put into the 14 record in any judicial proceeding that talks about 15 her so-called, quote, strategy, about adding or 16 developing a way to target Mr. Miscavige. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, let me read this 18 paragraph again. You are talking about Paragraph 8? 19 MR LIROT: Paragraph 8, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Okay, now I have read it. Now what 21 is your question? 22 BY MR LIROT: 23 Q Well, clearly Vaughn Young is not included in this 24 paragraph. Is he? You take full credit for the development 25 of this strategy, as you call it? 1113 1 A Yes. 2 Q And Vaughn Young didn't have any input with 3 Mr. Dandar prior to the first amendment complaint being 4 filed. Is that your position? 5 A No. 6 Q Well -- 7 A It's not. 8 Q What input did Mr. Young have that might have 9 helped Mr. Dandar in crafting the first amended complaint? 10 A Mr. Young and I were married and we were partners 11 in this consulting business that we had. And he and I had 12 worked together on the earlier Fishman case in which this 13 strategy had been developed. 14 Q Well, it wasn't your strategy then, was it? 15 A It was primarily my strategy. He and I had worked 16 together. But it was my strategy. 17 Q And you sold it to Mr. Young, knowing it not to be 18 true? 19 A I didn't sell him anything. What do you mean, 20 sell him? 21 Q Convinced him that there was some merit to this 22 strategy? Mr. Young didn't have any personal feelings that 23 what you were putting in all these declarations was 24 accurate? 25 A Mr. Young didn't have any problem with it at all. 1114 1 He was in the same business I was. We were working 2 together. 3 Q Did he know it to be untrue? 4 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 5 MR LIROT: Mr. Young. 6 THE COURT: Mr. Young? 7 MR LIROT: Mr. Young. 8 A You would have to ask Mr. Young. 9 BY MR LIROT: 10 Q Fair enough. 11 THE COURT: Well, I guess the obvious question, 12 in light the of the allegations made, is to the best 13 of your knowledge and belief, did Mr. Minton have 14 anything to do with this? Or is this you and 15 Mr. Young? 16 It says: "Mr. Dandar incorporated the strategy 17 I had developed to target Mr. Miscavige and the 18 upper echelon of Scientology --" 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: Then it has: "Following 21 Mr. Minton's $100,000 loan." 22 How are those connected? I understand people 23 might like to have them connected, but the truth of 24 the matter is, is what you are really alleging is 25 that it was your information that was incorporated. 1115 1 Right? Information you had provided, perhaps 2 others, as well? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Do you know of your own 5 knowledge whether the first payment of $100,000 had 6 anything to do with incorporating your strategy into 7 a first amended complaint? 8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, only my belief. 9 THE COURT: Do you have any knowledge -- in 10 other words, I know there are other things in here 11 where you have indicated that you and Mr. Minton and 12 Mr. Dandar met with Dr. Garko, and we'll hear about 13 that -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: -- from other witnesses maybe. But 16 do you have any knowledge, was there ever any 17 discussion by Mr. Dandar, "I wouldn't have used what 18 you told me but for the fact I got $100,000 from 19 Mr. Minton"? 20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor, he never said 21 that to me. I only -- you know, I -- the answer to 22 your question is I do not have personal knowledge 23 about it. I assumed that it was the case based on 24 my subsequent dealings with Mr. Dandar and my 25 overall belief that his pursuit of this wrongful 1116 1 death case in the way he has done it has been as a 2 result of Mr. Minton's funding. 3 BY MR LIROT: 4 Q Well, Mr. Dandar didn't include Mr. Miscavige in 5 the first amended complaint. Did he? 6 A No, he did not. 7 Q So he rejected your strategy. 8 A No, I believe the court -- I believe he'd already 9 made that agreement in which he was not supposed to. But 10 I'm not -- I believe that is why he didn't, but I'm not 11 sure. 12 Q But your strategy, it didn't work with that first 13 $100,000, did it? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object. The first 15 amended complaint is going to speak for itself. 16 THE COURT: Sustained. 17 BY MR LIROT: 18 Q All right. Would you please read Paragraph 9. 19 THE COURT: Let's say we try to beat the crowd 20 for lunch. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, you had told 22 Mr. Lirot that he could have until 12:30. 23 THE COURT: That is right. I did. 24 MR LIROT: I don't mind a long lunch. 25 THE COURT: What did I say? We go 12:30 to 1117 1 1:30? 2 MR. McGOWAN: He had a 1:00 o'clock hearing. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. WEINBERG: What time is your hearing? 5 MR LIROT: One o'clock conference call. 6 THE COURT: How much time is your hearing? 7 MR LIROT: I would imagine no longer than 25 8 minutes, Judge, tops. 9 THE COURT: Okay. All right. 10 THE WITNESS: Okay, I read that paragraph. 11 BY MR LIROT: 12 Q All right. Now, in mid-1998, where were you 13 living? 14 A Mmm, I believe I still lived in Washington state. 15 And I was traveling. 16 Q All right. And how many different lawsuits were 17 you involved with in 1998? 18 A Perhaps three, as I recall. 19 Q Okay. And you were living here, you were working 20 on three other lawsuits -- 21 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me, objection. She just 22 said she was living in Washington. 23 MR LIROT: Correct. 24 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was thinking about 25 lunch. 1118 1 MR. WEINBERG: Then you said she was living 2 here. 3 MR LIROT: Weren't. Weren't. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. I was thinking about 5 lunch, too. Maybe. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Let us both concentrate 7 more. 8 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: Or have lunch. 10 THE COURT: Right, or have lunch, have a long 11 one. 12 THE WITNESS: Do you want to have a long lunch, 13 your Honor? 14 THE COURT: I might. I really get weak. 15 Especially when I haven't eaten breakfast. Your 16 hearing is from 1 to 1:30? 17 MR LIROT: Yes, Judge. 18 THE COURT: We'll take from now until 1:30. 19 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 20 21 22 23 24 25 1119 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 14th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 14, 2002. Afternoon Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 Volume 9, Page 1121 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR 3 DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 4 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff 5 6 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 7 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 8 Attorney for Plaintiff 9 MR. KENDRICK MOXON 10 MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 11 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 12 13 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 14 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 15 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 16 Organization 17 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 18 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 19 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization 20 21 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 22 St. Petersburg, Florida. Counsel for Robert Minton 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1122 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 3 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 4 Attorney for Stacy Brooks 5 ALSO PRESENT: 6 Ms. Donna West 7 Mr. Rick Spector Mr. Allan Cartwright 8 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 9 Mr. Ben Shaw Ms. Joyce Earl 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1123 1 (The afternoon session began at 1:33 p.m. 2 Ms. Stacy Brooks is still the witness.) 3 THE COURT: We don't have Mr. Fugate at the 4 moment, so we'll wait for him. 5 (Mr. Fugate entered the courtroom.) 6 MR. FUGATE: Thank you very much, your 7 Honor. 8 THE COURT: You're welcome. 9 I had a chance just recently to read the 10 filing this morning from the Church, memorandum in 11 further support of omnibus motion for terminating 12 sanctions and other relief. 13 Did the plaintiffs get a copy of this? 14 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: I think that you're on notice 16 that one of the bases upon which they plan to ask me 17 to dismiss this case at the conclusion of this hearing 18 is that -- their belief that there was no foundation 19 to file the fifth amended complaint. 20 MR. LIROT: That certainly appears from the 21 face of that, although they are not specific. There's 22 a lot of case law, but there's certainly no specific 23 allegation in that -- in that memorandum. 24 THE COURT: Well, it's specific enough for 25 me, that I know that what I'm going to be asked to do KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1124 1 is to dismiss this, stating that, number one, there 2 was no good-faith basis to file the complaint that is 3 in existence in this case, which would be the last 4 complaint -- 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: Correct. 6 THE COURT: -- which is the fifth amended 7 complaint. 8 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And I think you're on notice. I 10 don't think we're that far into the hearing. And I'll 11 be candid with you all, I have some serious questions 12 about this. I raised this -- 13 MR. LIROT: Yes. 14 THE COURT: -- yesterday. 15 MR. LIROT: Yes. 16 THE COURT: I said at some point in time 17 we've got to know this. We just can't go to trial 18 wondering if there's any basis to support this 19 complaint. 20 And I think now they've made it an issue in 21 this hearing, as I said. If we were three-quarters of 22 the way through, I would gasp and say, "Oh, dear lord, 23 we're going to have to do it again." But I don't 24 think we do, and I think this would be evidentiary in 25 nature. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1125 1 And again, I'm not requiring you necessarily 2 to put on your entire case. 3 MR. LIROT: Right. 4 THE COURT: But I think that this fairly 5 puts this at issue, which is that this complaint -- 6 and I'm talking now about the complaint that I didn't 7 exactly understand how it was filed, that being that 8 the Church allowed this lady to die intentionally. 9 MR. LIROT: Yes. 10 THE COURT: That's what it says. 11 MR. LIROT: I'm aware -- I'm aware of the 12 allegations, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Yes. And so I would suspect 14 that in the process of your -- and -- and due to that, 15 if there's anybody that's been called in the previous 16 hearing -- you know, the only people called up there 17 were Mr. Dandar and Ms. Liebreich and Mr. Minton -- 18 MR. LIROT: That is correct, Judge. 19 THE COURT: -- that's been called. So if 20 this witness is on the stand and you have anything 21 that you want to ask of her to support this aspect of 22 this -- this motion, you may feel free to expand. If 23 there's nothing that you want to ask her about this, 24 that's fine. 25 MR. LIROT: I -- actually, Judge, I was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1126 1 going to incorporate that into some of my questions 2 this afternoon. 3 THE COURT: Good. 4 MR. FUGATE: May we approach the bench, your 5 Honor? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 Do you want this on the record? 8 MR. FUGATE: No. 9 (An off-the-record bench conference was held 10 between Mr. Fugate and Mr. Lirot.) 11 (Mr. Howie entered the courtroom.) 12 THE COURT: Ms. Brooks, I know you were 13 probably hopeful that you would be done today, and you 14 may be. I doubt that you had a chance to read all 15 those affidavits at lunch. 16 THE WITNESS: I didn't. 17 THE COURT: Okay. So in any event, if 18 there's to be some inquiry made about those 19 affidavits, it will have to be made -- 20 THE WITNESS: Thursday. 21 THE COURT: -- Thursday. I've explained to 22 counsel that I would assume this -- this -- it doesn't 23 matter really what it is. It's an allegation that the 24 complaint should be dismissed because there's no 25 good-faith basis to file it. And consequently, you -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1127 1 they may have some questions of you regarding that 2 they haven't asked now that this has been squarely put 3 at issue, not lies as much as was there a good-faith 4 basis. 5 THE WITNESS: All right. I understand that. 6 THE COURT: So if they expand their inquiry, 7 you end up being with us more than you thought you 8 were going to be, why, that's the reason. I've 9 allowed that. Otherwise, they would have to bring you 10 back, so -- okay? 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. 12 THE COURT: You may continue. 13 So I'm assuming this is now at issue in this 14 hearing. 15 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 16 THE COURT: And that if there's any evidence 17 that anybody wants to put on, they need to put it on. 18 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 19 MR. LIROT: Acknowledged, Judge. 20 THE COURT: Good. 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, am I allowed to 22 know what that is? 23 THE COURT: Yes. 24 THE WITNESS: I mean, what it says. 25 THE COURT: It says: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1128 1 "Under Florida law, the complaint is 2 improper, not only where the attorney knows 3 factual allegations to be false, but also that 4 the plaintiff lacks evidence to support his 5 factual allegation and where the complaint is 6 based on speculation and surmise." 7 And so that is, in a nutshell -- this goes 8 on for eight -- well, not really -- 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: I kept it down to seven 10 pages. 11 THE COURT: Seven. Yes, you did, Counsel. 12 -- seven pages and citations, but they're 13 really sort of putting us on notice that they're not 14 just talking about allegations being false, but that 15 if a complaint is filed because it's a "maybe" or 16 "we're guessing," that they're going to make -- I 17 don't know if they're right or not -- they're going to 18 make a legal argument that I should dismiss the 19 complaint because it was either lies or there was no 20 good-faith basis or it was based on conjecture. 21 THE WITNESS: I see. Okay. 22 THE COURT: And as I said, you were a 23 consultant at this stage, so there may be some 24 matters -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1129 1 THE COURT: -- that they want to raise with 2 you, which we'll allow them to do. 3 THE WITNESS: All right. 4 MR. LIROT: Very good. Thank you, Judge. 5 THE COURT: You're welcome to read this, if 6 they want to give you a copy of it. But that's it in 7 a nutshell. 8 THE WITNESS: All right. Thank you, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: If counsel wants to give you 11 more -- 12 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS, CONTINUED 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Ms. Brooks, you were going through your 15 affidavit, the one that you signed on April 29th, and I 16 think I had gotten to paragraph 9. And I asked you to read 17 that paragraph. Would you like to refresh your memory and 18 read it over again? 19 A I just did. 20 Q Just read it, all right. 21 THE COURT: And I would assume by that 22 motion that that motion means that they're going to 23 ask that this be dismissed with prejudice. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's correct, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: In other words, they're going to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1130 1 ask that it be dismissed and not be allowed to be 2 amended. 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Which is another issue, but 5 that's -- 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Yes. 7 THE COURT: -- as I was reading that, I 8 didn't see that, but I just made that assumption, 9 which I'm sure you -- 10 MR. LIROT: I assumed the same from the 11 pleading, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, paragraph 9, I think you had 15 testified that in mid-1998 you were a resident of 16 Washington state. You were living in Seattle? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. And at that point, were you still married 19 to Mr. Young? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And I think your testimony was that you were 22 working on three other cases involving the Church of 23 Scientology? 24 A I don't remember if your question concerned 25 mid-1998 or -- I don't remember what your question was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1131 1 earlier. 2 Q I was actually trying to find out what different 3 activities you were involved with in mid-1998, and that 4 might be the easiest way to answer that. What were you 5 doing in mid-1998? 6 A I was on the board of FACTNet with Mr. Minton. 7 Q Okay. 8 A The FACTNet lawsuit was still ongoing. As I 9 recall, I was working with Mr. Leiphold on that case, as 10 well as the Wollersheim case was also still ongoing, and 11 the wrongful death case. 12 Q Okay. You weren't doing anything with Mr. Dandar 13 in '98, though, were you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q All right. What -- what participation in the 16 wrongful death case did you have in 1998? 17 A As I recall, in the fall -- and actually, I 18 believe this is in my affidavit -- Mr. Prince -- Mr. Minton 19 and I had Mr. Prince begin working with Mr. Dandar at that 20 time. And I was working directly with Mr. Prince on it, as 21 well as being in touch with Mr. Dandar directly. 22 Q Well, I think you've got that in paragraph 11, 23 and I'm talking about mid-1998, focusing specifically on 24 paragraph 9. And you specifically say you became 25 Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1132 1 A Well, I think -- I think if you read it 2 correctly, it says, "By mid-1998, Mr. Minton had begun to 3 pay me to assist him in his anti-Scientology activities." 4 THE COURT: Slow down, please. 5 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 6 Did you get that? 7 THE REPORTER: (Nodded affirmatively.) 8 A And then the next sentence is, "With regard to my 9 work on the wrongful death case, once I began working for 10 Mr. Minton, I became his eyes and ears." 11 I believe that it was in the fall -- I don't -- I 12 believe in the summer -- which, when I say mid-1998, I mean 13 mid to late summer. I believe I did have some contact with 14 Mr. Dandar towards the late summer, but more in the fall. 15 BY MR. LIROT: 16 Q Okay. Well, this says mid-98, and I guess my 17 question would be, in mid-98, how many times had you been 18 in Mr. Dandar's office? 19 A I -- I don't recall when the first time was that 20 I was actually in his office. I don't recall. It may have 21 been later than mid-1998. But again, when I said 22 "mid-1998," what I was saying there was that by then 23 Mr. Minton had begun to pay me to assist him, and it wasn't 24 just the wrongful death case. 25 Q Well, to me, this suggests, to be somebody's eyes KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1133 1 and ears, that you're pretty much there all the time 2 keeping an eye on this case. What does that mean? You -- 3 it's your -- it's your phrase. I don't know what that 4 means, "Mr. Minton's eyes and ears in Mr. Dandar's office." 5 A Okay. 6 Q And you're -- and this is your affidavit, and 7 obviously your testimony was that you wanted to put a lot 8 in here. You wanted to set the record straight. And now 9 your testimony -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. This is a 11 speech. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. She never testified 13 she wanted to put a lie in here. 14 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry, Judge. 15 THE COURT: I thought that's what you said, 16 you wanted to put a lie in here. 17 MR. LIROT: No, no, no, no. I didn't say 18 that. 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. What did you say? 20 MR. LIROT: "Eyes and ears." She wanted to 21 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears. I didn't say -- I 22 didn't say lies. I wasn't accusing Ms. Brooks of 23 lying. I'm just -- I'm just wondering if -- 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q What do you mean by that? How could you possibly KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1134 1 be Mr. Minton's eyes and ears if you've got all this other 2 litigation, or at least three other cases, you're still 3 living in Seattle, and by your own testimony, this doesn't 4 really happen until late 1998. I guess on paragraph 11 you 5 make that statement. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I would object. 7 It's argumentative. If he could just ask one 8 question, just a question. 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 When did you become Mr. Minton's eyes and 11 ears? 12 THE WITNESS: Once I began working for 13 Mr. Minton. 14 THE COURT: And was that mid-1998 or was 15 that later in 1998? 16 THE WITNESS: Well, with regard to the work 17 on the wrongful death case, I believe it was later in 18 1998. It was probably in the fall. Yes. 19 BY MR. LIROT: 20 Q Well, then, this doesn't set the record straight. 21 This kind of slants it to a different direction, doesn't 22 it? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Argumentative. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 BY MR. LIROT: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1135 1 Q Now, in paragraph 10 -- if you could read that, 2 please. 3 A Yes. 4 Q How many conversations did you have with 5 Mr. Dandar where he said, "How could we bring pressure to 6 bear on Scientology?" 7 A I would estimate as many as 20, perhaps more. 8 Q And this is all in mid to late '98? 9 A No. 10 Q Okay. 11 A No. 12 Q In mid to late '98, how many conversations would 13 you have had with Mr. Dandar relative to the issue of 14 bringing pressure to bear on Scientology? 15 A I don't remember how many in that particular time 16 period. When I say as many as 20, I mean during the course 17 of the time that I was working with him on this case. 18 Q Now, you also say that you advised him to 19 concentrate on attacking the upper echelon of Scientology. 20 And what was your basis in advising him to do that? 21 MR. McGOWAN: This has been asked and 22 answered. We're just going over this. 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I was off in my own 24 world here. What was the question? 25 MR. McGOWAN: The question was what was the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1136 1 basis of her wanting to concentrate on attacking the 2 upper echelon of Scientology. I think the testimony 3 has been she developed a strategy, and she and 4 Mr. Dandar went over it a number of times. 5 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it to be 6 asked again. 7 BY MR. LIROT: 8 Q It says in paragraph 10, "In each conversation, I 9 advised him he should concentrate on attacking the upper 10 echelon of Scientology." And that's your strategy, isn't 11 it? Isn't that the strategy that you said you developed? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. Now, you developed that strategy, and 14 I guess you have a lot of Scientology documents in the Lisa 15 McPherson Trust that I think you earlier testified to that 16 you shredded because of some fear of copyright. Is that 17 correct? 18 A That was in 2000. 19 Q Okay. Well, did you have those -- those 20 documents? Did you have Scientology documents in mid to 21 late 1998? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you'd been with Scientology for 15 years, 24 correct? 25 A About 14 1/2. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1137 1 Q Okay. So -- and I think your testimony was that 2 certainly in some of your declarations and the one that I 3 think we entered into evidence before today, you articulate 4 what your responsibilities were. And certainly you were 5 part of the -- of the OSA, correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. And that's part of the higher 8 echelon, sort of the Office of Special Affairs? Is that 9 what it is? 10 MR. McGOWAN: It's a compound question, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: Pardon me? That's true. 13 MR. McGOWAN: Object to the form. 14 MR. LIROT: All right. 15 THE COURT: But we do know OSA, what it is. 16 She's told us that. 17 MR. LIROT: Correct, Judge. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q And OSA is the upper echelon of Scientology. 20 Isn't that correct? 21 A No. 22 Q Okay. OSA has knowledge of how the upper echelon 23 of Scientology is constructed. Is that correct? 24 A No. 25 Q All right. What was OSA's responsibilities when KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1138 1 you were a member? 2 A Well, it's -- it was what I testified they were 3 earlier. 4 MR. LIROT: Okay. 5 THE COURT: I agree that was testified to; 6 and if not, she very clearly defines it on the time 7 line of Scientology's harassment of Robert S. Minton. 8 I'm looking right at it. She puts it in the one 9 sentence, tells us quite clearly what she says it is. 10 MR. LIROT: All right. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q In working on all the different declarations that 13 you produced for these other lawsuits, you held yourself 14 out to be an expert, correct? 15 A Correct. 16 Q And you were offering your services as an expert 17 with somebody that was knowledgeable about the upper 18 echelon of Scientology. Isn't that correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q All right. What did you base your knowledge on 21 regarding your knowledge of the upper echelons of 22 Scientology? Corporate structure, however you referred to 23 it in your declarations. 24 A Primarily I'd spent I believe six months working 25 in an organization called Author Services, Inc. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1139 1 Q Okay. And what was Author Services, Inc., 2 A-U-T-H-O-R? 3 A Author -- 4 Q Author. 5 A -- as in writing a book. 6 Q Okay. What was Author Services, Inc.? 7 A Well, this was in 1982, and it was established to 8 be a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work. 9 Q Okay. And what were your responsibilities with 10 that corporation? 11 A I was in charge of taking care of the personnel. 12 Q Okay. What else were your job functions? 13 A That was my job function. 14 Q So you were taking care of all the personnel for 15 Author Services, Inc.? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And that was an organization created to supervise 18 or distribute all of L. Ron Hubbard's fictional work? 19 A It was an organization created to be L. Ron 20 Hubbard's -- a literary agency for L. Ron Hubbard's 21 fiction. 22 Q Okay. How did that interplay with other 23 Scientology organizations? 24 A Well, when it was first established, 25 Mr. Miscavige was the chairman of the board of ASI. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1140 1 Q Author Services, Inc.? 2 A Yes. 3 Q All right. And he was the chairman of the board. 4 How did he -- how did he get named to that position? 5 A I don't know. 6 Q What other positions did he hold in the Church at 7 that time? 8 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 9 MR. LIROT: David Miscavige. 10 THE COURT: Don't we all know -- I mean, 11 there's no dispute over this, is there? Mr. Miscavige 12 took over for L. Ron Hubbard, and he is the head of 13 the Church and everything -- am I wrong here? 14 MR. WEINBERG: No. You're right. But he 15 was asking about 1982, which was four years before 16 Mr. Hubbard died. 17 THE COURT: I'm sorry, okay. 18 MR. LIROT: I guess what I'm asking, 19 Judge -- and I'll frame the question to the witness. 20 BY MR. LIROT: 21 Q What personal knowledge did you have about the 22 corporate structure of Scientology that you felt entitled 23 you to create the declarations where you would go through a 24 description of this corporate structure? 25 A Well, it was fairly anecdotal, but I had heard KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1141 1 various things about the project that existed at that time, 2 which was I believe begun in 1981, perhaps 1980, in which 3 the corporate structure of the Church was being 4 reorganized. And so I had some general knowledge that that 5 was occurring. 6 Q How did you have knowledge that the corporate 7 structure was being reorganized -- reorgi- -- reorganized? 8 MR. FUGATE: I think she just testified to 9 that, Judge. I object. It was asked and answered. 10 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 11 A Well, I -- 12 THE COURT: I can't seem to keep my focus 13 here. I don't know whether I'm just off in la-la land 14 or what. If she just said it, I didn't hear it, so -- 15 MR. WEINBERG: What she said was it was 16 mostly anecdotal. 17 THE COURT: Okay. I'm going to listen. I'm 18 going to watch you now. 19 All right. Go on ahead. 20 A I had several occasions in which I observed 21 Mr. Miscavige interacting with his subordinates. I knew, I 22 think, two or three of the people that were on the 23 particular project that did the reorganization. I had had 24 several conversations with one of the people who was on 25 staff in ASI about it. And basically what I did was to KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1142 1 take that -- what I was asked to do was to take the actual 2 experience that I had and turn it into a pattern of 3 conduct. 4 BY MR. LIROT: 5 Q Who asked you to do that? 6 A Well, I was asked for the pattern of conduct by 7 Mr. Berry, Mr. Leiphold, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q Not back then, Mr. Dandar didn't ask you to do 9 anything? 10 A I don't think you asked me in a particular 11 timeframe. You just asked me who asked me to do that. 12 Q Fair enough. Now, at that point, did David 13 Miscavige direct all of the -- I guess the business 14 organizations? 15 MR. WEINBERG: My objection is that they're 16 flying all over the place. She was talking about 17 Leiphold and Berry, which is in the '90s. Now he's 18 talking about, at that point, Mr. Miscavige. I think 19 we were talking about like 1981, right? Or '82. Can 20 we like focus on a date? 21 THE COURT: Okay. Are we talking about 1981 22 or '82? 23 MR. LIROT: I'm talking about the dates in 24 which she has -- she set forth in her declarations 25 that she has some knowledge of the corporate structure KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1143 1 or the leadership structure of the Church. So my 2 questions deal with those periods of time. 3 THE COURT: Okay. In her -- are you 4 speaking of her affidavits that's filed in this case 5 that dealt with the corporate structure? 6 MR. LIROT: Well, I think her affidavits 7 filed in this case say it was all speculation, and she 8 was, I think, trying to slant -- the later affidavits 9 is that she was trying to slant the information she 10 gave for whoever was asking for it. 11 THE COURT: Okay. I'm sorry. I thought I 12 had just read some affidavit -- which I only read the 13 affidavits that pertain to this case -- where she was 14 talking about some structure. 15 MR. LIROT: All right. Well, let's -- 16 THE COURT: I don't know what period of time 17 you're referring to. 18 BY MR. LIROT: 19 Q You prepared some affidavits for this case, for 20 the wrongful death case? 21 A No. 22 Q All right. Did you allow the use of other 23 affidavits where you described the corporate structure of 24 Scientology for use in the wrongful death case? 25 A I believe so. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1144 1 Q And you signed an affidavit or something saying, 2 "I incorporate" -- "I incorporate these other affidavits?" 3 A That may be. I haven't actually seen what's 4 being referred to as my affidavits. 5 Q All right. And you tendered this information to 6 at least two other attorneys besides Mr. Dandar, stating 7 under oath that everything that you've stated in whatever 8 declarations or affidavits you filed was true and correct. 9 Is that true? 10 A As a general statement, yes. 11 Q All right. And -- 12 THE COURT: Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe what I 13 read had to do with different files, maybe not -- 14 maybe it wasn't the corporate structure. 15 Here's, ma'am, is what I read. This is what 16 I'm referring to. I'm referring now to a notice of 17 filing dated the 3rd of February of '98. Ms. -- 18 Ms. Young at that time did file an affidavit in this 19 case, basically stating, "I find as an independently 20 retained consultant in this matter, and attached 21 hereto is a genuine copy of another affidavit by 22 affiant --" 23 THE WITNESS: By a what? 24 THE COURT: "Another affidavit by affiant on 25 August 12th, 1983, in the case of Dickerson vs. Sally KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1145 1 Jesse Raphael" -- that's a new one -- "et al., finding 2 all the statements contained in the attached affidavit 3 are true and accurate." 4 That affidavit -- and I'll show it to you -- 5 deals apparently more with various files and whether 6 they would be confidential or non-confidential. 7 I think that's what I was referring to. I 8 was wrong. I did not read one that was dealing with 9 corporate structure. 10 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think the ones 11 regarding corporate structure were incorporated in 12 this case. Prior declarations that described the 13 corporate structure I think were incorporated into 14 this case. Obviously, the record would speak for 15 itself. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Is that -- maybe that's 17 this declaration, which I didn't have a chance to 18 read. 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes, that's the one. 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. LIROT: Apparently there's no cover 23 sheet on that one, but as I understand it, that was 24 one of the declarations that was incorporated into the 25 record in the wrongful death case. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1146 1 THE WITNESS: I don't need to look at this 2 one. 3 THE COURT: I guess not. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay. 5 THE COURT: Well, did she ever file a 6 declaration or an affidavit with that one stating it 7 was true? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 9 MR. LIROT: Ms. -- apparently yes. 10 MR. DANDAR: Not like the other one. 11 That -- that one there on the corporate structure was 12 filed with the plaintiff's motion that had all the 13 parties in October '99. She did not file a separate 14 affidavit saying "The attached affidavit is true." 15 THE COURT: So you filed a motion and as 16 part of your motion attached this as an exhibit 17 showing it was an affidavit in another case. 18 MR. DANDAR: Correct. That was our 19 substantive evidence to support the fifth amended 20 complaint which they're now seeking to dismiss. 21 THE COURT: What, this one that -- 22 MR. DANDAR: That was just one of them. 23 THE COURT: -- Ms. Young is looking at now? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Well, then I didn't read KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1147 1 that in its entirety. I guess I'd better. 2 Not right now. You go ahead and look at it 3 so you know what they're referring to. 4 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: If we're talking about the 6 corporate structure and whether or not David Miscavige 7 is the top of Scientology, I don't know that there's a 8 soul that would doubt that. I mean, I think everybody 9 knew that. 10 You certainly knew that. 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: That's not an issue, is it? 13 MR. LIROT: I understand, Judge. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 THE WITNESS: May I hold this? 16 THE COURT: Sure. That's -- I need that 17 back, though -- 18 THE WITNESS: All right. 19 THE COURT: -- at the end of the day. 20 MR. MOXON: If we could get the date of the 21 affidavit that she's got now. 22 THE WITNESS: It is March 13th, 1997. It 23 was apparently filed in the Wollersheim case. Let me 24 see. 25 I believe it was filed in the Wollersheim KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1148 1 case. I'm not sure. 2 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: I just want to address the 5 comment you made just to make sure the record is clear 6 with respect to Mr. Miscavige, because you used terms 7 like "the head of Scientology" or whatever. They're a 8 little imprecise. 9 Mr. Miscavige is the senior ecclesiastical 10 official in the Scientology religion. He is the 11 chairman of the board of the Religious Technology 12 Center, which has various specific functions of 13 insuring the purity of the Scientology religion. He 14 didn't replace Mr. Hubbard's role, which is unique 15 within the religion and can't be replaced. 16 But he is -- it is true to say he is the 17 senior -- most senior ecclesiastical official in the 18 Church, in the religion, but each individual Church 19 has its own individual corporate leadership. And I 20 just want to be clear of what our position is on that. 21 THE COURT: Without either offending or not 22 offending anybody, when I think of the Catholic 23 Church, I think of the Pope as being the head of the 24 Catholic Church. When I think of the Church of 25 Scientology, I think of David Miscavige as being the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1149 1 head of that Church, just like I think of the Pope 2 being the head of the Catholic Church. That's the 3 reference I meant. When I said he's the head, he's 4 the top ecclesiastical leader. 5 MR. LIEBERMAN: I understand. 6 THE COURT: I guess -- and I don't know 7 because I've never, thank God, had to deal with the 8 corporate structure of the Catholic Church, but I'm 9 sure there's a lot of it. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 11 THE COURT: And so I'm sure there's this and 12 there's that and the other thing. But if I were going 13 to refer to the Church, I would say the Pope is the 14 head of the Church. That's how I refer to David 15 Miscavige. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right. But each -- 17 just to following the analogy -- then I'll sit down -- 18 each archdiocese of the Catholic Church is a separate 19 structure. And usually it's the archbishop or the 20 cardinal who will have authority over the temporal 21 affairs in any particular jurisdiction. 22 THE COURT: And I guess the bishop -- and 23 apparently sometimes the bishop has some control, 24 because it seems to me like they're saying the bishops 25 need to do something about these allegations of sexual KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1150 1 abuse on children or what have you, like the bishops 2 have some control over the cardinals. I don't know, 3 and I don't want to go there. 4 MR. LIEBERMAN: Right. 5 THE COURT: When I refer -- when I made my 6 reference, as I said, my reference was that that's how 7 I perceived it. Everybody in this courtroom would 8 assume that he was the head ecclesiastical officer. 9 MR. LIEBERMAN: That's right, your Honor. 10 The bishop -- as you said, the bishop might have 11 authority over a particular matter. And while he 12 could have reported something to the Pope, it doesn't 13 mean that he did. 14 THE COURT: Right. 15 MR. LIROT: Unless he was on the ski slopes 16 at the right time, Judge. 17 BY MR. LIROT: 18 Q Now, didn't Mr. Miscavige, during the early '80s 19 when you were still a member of Scientology, run the Author 20 Resource Corporation? Wasn't that a for-profit business 21 that supervised most of Scientology's commercial endeavors? 22 A Excuse me. 23 MR. MOXON: Objection, foundation. 24 THE COURT: Well, I think she can say she 25 doesn't know. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1151 1 MR. MOXON: Well -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: I think she already said that 3 he was the chairman of the board of Author Services. 4 I object to all the dialogue after that. She said he 5 was chairman of the board of Author Services. She -- 6 and she also explained what she understood Author 7 Services was, which was not what Mr. Lirot said. So 8 that was my objection, was to the form. 9 THE COURT: Okay. I think she can answer 10 his question. 11 A Okay. What was the question again? 12 BY MR. LIROT: 13 Q Wasn't Mr. Miscavige in charge of all of the 14 for-profit endeavors of Scientology when you were a member, 15 under I guess the umbrella of Author Resources, 16 Incorporated? 17 A Oh, you mean Author Services. 18 Q Author Services, I'm sorry. 19 A Okay. Perhaps I should clarify. Author Services 20 was a literary agency that was established to take care of 21 L. Ron Hubbard's fiction work. And that was a for-profit 22 corporation that dealt with L. Ron Hubbard's fiction works. 23 Q Did it run other nonprofit Scientology 24 corporations? 25 A No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1152 1 THE COURT: I'm sure there's a point here 2 where you're going to tell us what the relevance of 3 this is. 4 MR. LIROT: Yes, Judge -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 MR. LIROT: -- just basically that 7 Mr. Miscavige had knowledge of these upper echelon 8 operations and that essentially -- she testified about 9 the change in the corporate structure. I was going to 10 ask her about that. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. LIROT: Okay. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q What do you know about -- you testified in the 15 '80s there was a major change in the corporate structure. 16 A Yes. 17 Q When did that occur? 18 A Well, I'm not sure when it was finalized. There 19 was an ongoing project, and I believe it was begun in 1981. 20 I don't know that it was actually completed until perhaps 21 1985. But the overall goal of the corporate structure, as 22 I understood it, was to reorganize what was at that time 23 sort of the mother church corporation, which was called the 24 Church of Scientology of California. 25 Q Do you know why that reorganization took place? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1153 1 A Again, it was my understanding that -- that had 2 sort of been the first corporation. And then Scientology 3 grew, and it ended up that Church of Scientology of 4 California had various parts of Scientology under it that 5 it couldn't really -- or, that it wasn't really in charge 6 of anymore. And so that -- and again, this is my 7 understanding. 8 But I think the overall idea was to reorganize 9 the corporate structure so that it would more closely 10 resemble or align with the actuality of, you know, what 11 organizations were in charge of what and what Church of 12 Scientology of California actually controlled. 13 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I have an 14 objection, which is lack of foundation. I think when 15 I hear her saying, again, "this is my understanding," 16 I think what she's saying is she doesn't have personal 17 knowledge of any of this, I think. And that's my 18 objection. 19 THE COURT: Okay. I think that would be 20 accurate. 21 Do you know this or -- 22 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I wasn't ever 23 directly involved in the reorganization. But I -- 24 this is what I heard -- 25 THE COURT: I mean -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1154 1 THE WITNESS: -- pretty much. 2 THE COURT: -- was this discussed as -- I 3 don't know, as a member, whatever member -- were you a 4 Sea Org member? 5 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 6 THE COURT: All right. Was this discussed, 7 the corporate reorganization or why the corporate 8 reorganization was occurring, with the Sea Org 9 members? 10 THE WITNESS: We were briefed, yes, your 11 Honor. 12 THE COURT: So while you were briefed, 13 you're giving us your best opinion as to what you were 14 told? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. So it may not be 17 true, but apparently she's giving us her information 18 as she believes it to be. I'm not sure where we're 19 going here. I really am not, Counselor. 20 MR. LIROT: I'll bring it back to the 21 affidavit, Judge. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Looking at your paragraphs 9 and 10 of your 24 affidavit, you talk about -- 25 A Which affidavit? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1155 1 Q April 29th, 2002. 2 A Okay. Well, we were talking about another one, 3 so I'm just clarifying that. 4 Q That's all right. I appreciate that. 5 THE COURT: What paragraph, Counselor? 6 MR. LIROT: I'm looking at paragraphs 9 and 7 10 for a question based -- there are two sentences 8 here. 9 BY MR. LIROT: 10 Q In paragraph 9, it says you wanted to make sure 11 that Mr. Dandar emphasized the Scientology aspects of the 12 case as much as possible. 13 A In paragraph 9? 14 Q In paragraph 9, at the end. 15 A Oh, okay, m'hum (affirmative). 16 Q And then in paragraph 10 at the end, it says, "In 17 each conversation, I advised him he should concentrate on 18 attacking the upper echelon of Scientology." What exactly 19 were you telling Mr. Dandar to do? 20 THE COURT: It says "particularly 21 Mr. Miscavige," it says. You've got to finish that. 22 BY MR. LIROT: 23 Q Okay. Well, "upper echelon, particularly 24 Mr. Miscavige." My question is, During this time in 1998, 25 what exactly are you telling Mr. Dandar to do with the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1156 1 case? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, as to paragraph 9 3 or paragraph 10? There's two different -- 4 THE COURT: Oh, I thought you were going to 5 say "asked and answered." 6 MR. McGOWAN: It has been asked and 7 answered. 8 THE COURT: Sustained. 9 MR. WEINBERG: It takes a while to get 10 there. 11 MR. LIROT: All right. Moving right along, 12 Judge. 13 BY MR. LIROT: 14 Q Paragraph 11, would you read that paragraph, 15 please, the August -- excuse me, April 29th, 2002 16 affidavit. 17 THE COURT: We're going to assume, unless 18 you tell us otherwise, all references to "affidavits" 19 now, you're going through the April affidavit. 20 MR. LIROT: That's correct, Judge. 21 THE COURT: April 2002. 22 MR. LIROT: April 2002 affidavit. 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 BY MR. LIROT: 25 Q All right. You say that -- you're talking about KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1157 1 Mr. Prince. And it says: "Mr. Prince agreed that this was 2 the way to put pressure on Scientology, although we had no 3 evidence to link Miscavige in any way to the events 4 surrounding Lisa McPherson's death." How would you know 5 what Mr. Prince knew? 6 A Mr. Prince had left Scientology in 1992, Mr. 7 Lirot. How could he have any evidence to link 8 Mr. Miscavige to Lisa McPherson's death in 1995? That's 9 what I meant. 10 Q Okay. And you wouldn't have any personal 11 knowledge of that either, would you. 12 A I left Scientology in 1981 -- in 1989. 13 Q And nobody would have any personal knowledge 14 except the people that were in the hotel at the time she 15 died. Isn't that correct? 16 A I wouldn't know who else might, but certainly not 17 someone who wasn't there. 18 Q But Mr. Prince certainly had knowledge of the 19 corporate structure, so to speak, of Scientology. Is that 20 correct? 21 A Are you asking me my understanding of 22 Mr. Princes's understanding? 23 Q I'm asking -- well, are you aware of what 24 position Mr. Prince held in Scientology when he was a 25 member? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1158 1 A Yes. 2 Q What was that position? 3 A He was -- his job title was, I believe, deputy 4 inspector general external for a certain part of the time 5 that he was in Scientology. 6 Q Okay. 7 A I mean, he had other positions as well, but that 8 was one position that he held. 9 Q Was that the highest position that he held? 10 A I believe so. That's why I'm saying that one. 11 Q How high a position is that, based on your 12 knowledge of the corporate structure? 13 A That was -- he was directly under the deputy 14 inspector general, who at the time that he was on that 15 position was Vicki Aznaran. 16 MR. FUGATE: Could we just date it so we 17 know kind of where we are, whenever she is talking 18 about? 19 What year was that? 20 THE WITNESS: Uh -- 21 THE COURT: When Mr. -- whenever Mr. Prince 22 was -- 23 MR. FUGATE: Right, held the highest 24 position. 25 THE COURT: Right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1159 1 A I believe that was nineteen eighty- -- perhaps it 2 was 1985 to somewhere in early 1987. I may be -- I may be 3 mistaken about that, but I believe that is when he held 4 that position. 5 BY MR. LIROT: 6 Q What were his responsibilities? 7 A Again, this is going to be based on what he told 8 me. Well, there was a little bit of an understanding that 9 I had -- 10 THE COURT: That's hearsay. Sustained. 11 BY MR. LIROT: 12 Q Okay. What was your understanding, other than 13 what you had heard from Mr. Prince, about his 14 responsibilities? 15 MR. McGOWAN: It's kind of back-door 16 hearsay, same question. 17 THE COURT: Unless -- I don't know, were you 18 all in the Church at the same time? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 THE COURT: And did you know him when you 21 were in the Church? 22 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: Well, to that extent, she has 24 some knowledge. 25 I don't know how high up he was or how high KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1160 1 up you were, to tell you the truth. I don't know 2 where he fell in the echelon or where you did. But to 3 the extent she has knowledge, you can tell him. 4 A Well, I didn't have direct dealings with 5 Mr. Prince when he had that position. But it was my 6 understanding when I was in Scientology that his job 7 involved hiring of attorneys -- well, in other words, when 8 it says "external," it -- deputy inspector general 9 external, the "external" was referring to matters external 10 to the Church itself, so that his duties included things 11 like hiring attorneys for various litigation that the 12 Church was involved in, I believe also dealing with other 13 matters that had to do with matters external to -- you 14 know, external to the internal workings of Scientology, 15 basically. 16 BY MR. LIROT: 17 Q Is -- I don't understand. External -- "internal" 18 would mean just within the Church itself? 19 A Yes. There was a deputy inspector general 20 internal -- 21 THE COURT: I've got just a -- just a 22 general question here. It seems as if -- and I 23 realize -- and this is by no means insulting, but -- 24 and I don't mean this to be, but Mr. Dandar, it seemed 25 like he had -- I don't know that he asked these KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1161 1 questions. 2 MR. DANDAR: I'm a witness. 3 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know -- what 4 difference does it make? There's no jury here. 5 I mean, it seems like he's having to tell 6 you everything that you're saying, and I understand 7 that, because this probably is not in your knowledge 8 to date, necessarily. And if it is in his, it seems 9 like we could get there faster if he could just ask 10 the questions direct. 11 MR. LIROT: If you will bear me with a 12 little longer -- 13 THE COURT: I will. 14 MR. LIROT: -- I think I can get there. 15 THE COURT: I guess I will, but I'm saying 16 it will not offend me if Mr. Dandar were to 17 participate. He is co-counsel in this case and 18 therefore is permitted to make inquiry. 19 MR. LIROT: All right. 20 THE COURT: Just because he's a witness in 21 this hearing does not mean that he is -- he is 22 co-counsel in this case and therefore can at any time 23 ask questions. 24 MR. LIROT: I think I was operating from a 25 different assumption, Judge, so I appreciate your KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1162 1 attitude in that. 2 THE COURT: Well, I don't know that they 3 asked me to, and I will allow him to ask questions. I 4 will sustain that. I think he is co-counsel. He has 5 not been removed. This is a motion to dismiss this 6 case -- 7 MR. LIROT: Yes, it is. 8 THE COURT: -- throw it out. 9 MR. LIROT: That's correct. 10 THE COURT: This has been his case for five 11 years. 12 MR. LIROT: That's absolutely correct. 13 THE COURT: And you just got in on it at the 14 last minute, so I -- I don't mean at the last minute, 15 but you certainly have been added -- 16 MR. LIROT: I'm a new arrival. 17 THE COURT: You're a new arrival, and a very 18 welcome arrival, Mr. Lirot. But a lot of this 19 information has been acquired, I assume, by Mr. Dandar 20 through years of working on this case. And I have no 21 qualms at all about his asking any witness, including 22 this one, Mr. Minton, or anybody else, questions. 23 Just because he's a witness doesn't mean he can't make 24 inquiry for his client, whose case is at risk. 25 MR. LIROT: I understand that. Well, Judge, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1163 1 in light of that, seeing as it's 2:30, I think the old 2 saying is measure twice, cut once. Can we take five 3 minutes, and I can talk with Mr. Dandar to see if 4 there's a way to expedite this. 5 THE COURT: Sure. Am I crazy here? I mean, 6 this is a motion to dismiss the case. Just because 7 Mr. Dandar is a witness doesn't mean he can't ask 8 questions. 9 MR. FUGATE: Do you think I'm going to say 10 you're crazy, Judge? 11 THE COURT: I mean, I understand if a lawyer 12 is a witness in a jury trial where their credibility 13 is at issue -- and, naturally, this is a trial before 14 the Court, the credibility is at issue. But he 15 certainly is a lawyer in this case until removed, and 16 this is an issue that some of this has nothing to do 17 with his credibility. It has to do with what -- the 18 plaintiff wants to ask of these witnesses to get in 19 this record. The faster we can do that, the better. 20 MR. FUGATE: I don't disagree with that 21 analysis, Judge. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And we never asked that he 23 not participate. 24 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I didn't know that. 25 You certainly have not asked me. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1164 1 MR. WEINBERG: No. 2 THE COURT: So I'm perfectly willing to let 3 him help you or actually make inquiry. 4 MR. LIROT: All right. Judge, can we take a 5 10-minute break and let me talk to him about that? 6 THE COURT: Absolutely. Go on ahead and 7 take a 10-minute break. I'm just kind of thinking to 8 myself. I'm not sure what I'm thinking. 9 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court is recessed 10 for 10 minutes. 11 (Break taken at 2:30 p.m. until 2:37 p.m. ) 12 THE COURT: You may continue. 13 MR. LIROT: Judge, Mr. Dandar is going to 14 continue the questioning. 15 THE COURT: All right. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Ms. Brooks, have you ever testified in a 19 declaration that David Miscavige as the captain of the Sea 20 Org runs all of Scientology? 21 A Probably. 22 Q Is that a truthful statement? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Is that a truthful statement if it's in your 25 declarations in other cases? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1165 1 MR. FUGATE: He should direct her to a 2 particular affidavit if we're going to start asking 3 about affidavits. 4 THE COURT: About an affidavit, I think you 5 can ask her if that's accurate, according to an 6 affidavit. 7 MR. DANDAR: (Gestured.) 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q If you said it in a prior declaration, it would 10 be accurate, correct, truthful? 11 A If I said what? 12 Q If you said David Miscavige as the captain of the 13 Sea Org controls all of Scientology? 14 A I don't recall the wording that I used. But what 15 is accurate is that Mr. Miscavige does control Scientology, 16 and Mr. Miscavige is the chairman of the board of RTC. 17 Q All right. My question is, If you said in a 18 prior declaration -- 19 THE COURT: Well, I think if you're going to 20 say in any prior declaration, if you can find it, you 21 really ought to find it and show it to her. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Did you advise me when I first met you and your 24 husband up in Seattle in the spring of 1997 that David 25 Miscavige controls all of Scientology, not in his position KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1166 1 as the chairman of the board of RTC, but as captain of the 2 Sea Org? 3 A I don't believe I did. 4 Q Do you -- 5 A I wouldn't use those words. 6 Q Do you recall your husband, Vaughn Young, telling 7 me that? 8 A I don't. 9 Q Okay. I'd like to have this marked as our next 10 exhibit. It's the Sea Org News. 11 THE COURT: Do you have one for the witness? 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. This is 31, of the 13 plaintiff's. 14 MR. MOXON: Can we date this, Mr. Dandar? 15 MR. DANDAR: I'll ask the witness that. 16 How come I don't have one? I'll take this 17 one back. 18 THE COURT: Are these dated? I don't know. 19 Is there a date on here? 20 MR. DANDAR: I believe there's a -- yes, 21 there is, 1982, October 17th, San Francisco, 22 California. 23 THE COURT: Were you in the Church at that 24 time? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I was, your Honor. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1167 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q And while you were a member of -- were you a 4 member of OSA at the time, or the Guardian's Office, at the 5 time in 1982? 6 A No. 7 Q Okay. The Sea Org News, do you recall you and 8 your husband giving me this copy of the Sea Org News? 9 A We probably did. I used it in a declaration. 10 Q And the Sea Org News goes into great detail of 11 how Mr. Miscavige came into the San Francisco mission and 12 removed the corporate officers of that San Francisco 13 corporation. Is that correct? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q Okay. And he did that because he was the captain 16 of the Sea Org. Is that correct? 17 A That's not correct. 18 Q Well, how did he do it? 19 A He did it from his authority as -- as RTC. He 20 did it from RTC's authority, and I believe one of his 21 attorneys was also there to make that clear. But I do -- 22 but I did say to you that this could be used to show him as 23 head of the Sea Org. 24 Q I'm sorry. Back then his position was Commodore 25 David Miscavige. Is that correct? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1168 1 A That's incorrect. 2 Q Well, look at page 2, middle column, right below 3 the word "audience" at the bottom of the column. 4 A Yes. 5 Q Does that say Commodore David Miscavige? 6 A No. 7 Q What does that say? 8 A It says "commander." 9 Q Commander, okay. Was that the highest position 10 in the Sea Org at that time outside of Mr. Hubbard's 11 position? 12 A I don't know, but I do know that he does have the 13 highest position. 14 Q Sorry. 15 THE COURT: What does "RTC" stand for again? 16 MR. FUGATE: Religious Technology Center. 17 THE COURT: Okay. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q How could I use this to show the power of 20 Mr. Miscavige in the Sea Org and throughout all of 21 Scientology, Ms. Brooks? How did you tell me to use it? 22 A How could you? 23 Q Yes. How did you tell me to use it? 24 A Well, basically what I said in my -- in one of my 25 declarations -- and I think I testified to this earlier, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1169 1 Mr. Dandar -- that since you had -- well, during what time 2 period are you talking about or speaking about this? 3 Q In 1982. 4 MR. WEINBERG: She asked about when you 5 spoke to her. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q In the spring of '97. 8 A Oh. I'm not -- I'm not clear on why you would 9 have been concerned about Mr. Miscavige as anything other 10 than chairman of the board of RTC in 1997, because it 11 wasn't until Judge Moody said that you couldn't name him as 12 head of the RTC that you needed to be able to name him in 13 some other capacity. 14 Q This is back in the spring of '97, before we ever 15 had a hearing with Judge Moody, which did not take place 16 until two years later. 17 A All right. 18 Q So I'm asking you back in November or the spring 19 of 1997, when I first met you and your husband in Seattle, 20 isn't it true that you told me that the person that runs 21 all of Scientology is Mr. Miscavige through his position in 22 the Sea Org? 23 MR. WEINBERG: That's asked and answered, 24 your Honor. She said no, it wasn't through the Sea 25 Org; it was through his position as chairman of the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1170 1 board of Religious Technology Center, the exact same 2 question. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 THE WITNESS: Are we done with this one? 5 MR. LIROT: We're done with that. The 6 document speaks for itself. 7 Your Honor, I would like to have this income 8 tax return marked as our next exhibit. This will be 9 No. 32. 10 MR. MOXON: Is that the LMT? 11 MR. DANDAR: Lisa McPherson Trust. 12 THE COURT: Is that the one we have that I 13 got today? 14 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 15 THE COURT: I think I've got a copy of it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy? 17 THE COURT: I think I do. 18 MR. DANDAR: Okay. If you don't, I have an 19 extra. Here you go, right there. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q There you go (handing). Who prepared this income 22 tax return? The Lisa McPherson Trust for the year 2000. 23 A An accountant. 24 Q Was this filed? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1171 1 Q Did you sign for it, or sign for it on the first 2 page as the corporate officer? 3 A I believe I did, although this one doesn't have 4 the signature for some reason. 5 Q Is this an accurate copy of what was filed with 6 the IRS? 7 A I would assume so. 8 Q Do you have any reason -- 9 A I would need to see -- I would need to see a 10 signed copy in order to know that for sure. 11 Q Okay. 12 THE COURT: Well, I take it this is what you 13 produced. 14 THE WITNESS: I believe this may be. 15 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, it is. This was faxed to 16 me from the CPA in Jacksonville, whose name appears 17 here, pursuant to a request by Ms. Brooks. 18 THE COURT: Okay. So you have no reason to 19 doubt -- 20 THE WITNESS: I would assume it is, yes, 21 your Honor. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And the CPA is in Jacksonville. That's because 24 Mr. Merrett found the CPA for you? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1172 1 Q Okay. Now, the Lisa McPherson Trust was 2 incorporated by me at the request of Mr. Minton, correct? 3 I filed the papers for the trust? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. It's incorporated as a for-profit 6 corporation? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And Mr. Minton funded the corporation, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And that fund by Mr. Minton, was it a loan or a 11 gift? 12 A It was a loan. 13 Q All of the money? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Okay. So turn to page -- and it was a loan to 16 the corporation? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. Turn to what's numbered at the top in the 19 right-hand corner page 5, and look at line 19. 20 THE COURT: Page 5? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 22 MR. FUGATE: There's a fax page 5 and 23 there's a form page 4. 24 MR. DANDAR: Fax page 5, form page 4. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1173 1 Q Loan from shareholders -- 2 THE COURT: Wait a second. I want to make 3 sure I have the right -- oh, okay, I have got it, fax 4 page 5, form page 4. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q "Loan from shareholders" is blank. Is that 7 correct? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Can you explain to us why Mr. Minton's loans are 10 not placed there? 11 A I would imagine because he wasn't a shareholder 12 when this was done. 13 Q When did he cease -- 14 A I'm not sure. 15 Q -- being a shareholder? 16 A Perhaps March. 17 Q What year? 18 A Of 2000. I'm not -- I'm not sure about that, but 19 I believe that's the case. 20 Q And this corporation that shows -- this corporate 21 return that shows no income whatsoever but an $829,449 22 loss, was that taken by you as a personal loss on your 2000 23 return? 24 A No. 25 Q This is a Sub S corporation, isn't it? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1174 1 A Does it say that somewhere on this form? 2 Q Well, let me just ask you if you're aware of 3 that. 4 A I don't know what that means. 5 THE COURT: If it was 1120-S, it would say 6 1120-S. It doesn't. I mean, I don't know if it's 7 Subchapter S or not. But most of the time, people say 8 1120 or 1120-S. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 THE COURT: So I'm going to assume from 11 looking at this that it is an 1120, which means it's a 12 regular corporation. 13 MR. DANDAR: I think there are corporate 14 returns somewhere in the pile of exhibits. 15 THE COURT: There's a huge difference. 16 1120-S, the loss flows through to an individual. On 17 an 1120, it does not. 18 MR. DANDAR: Right. 19 THE COURT: So if this is an 1120 and 20 neither she nor Mr. Minton took this as a loss, it's 21 probably improper. 22 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 23 THE COURT: If it's an 1120-S, they would 24 have some ability to flow the loss through to their 25 1040. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1175 1 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 2 THE COURT: Did you know that I worked for 3 the IRS? 4 MR. DANDAR: This is wonderful. I didn't 5 know that. 6 THE COURT: Yes. I was an agent. That's 7 why I understand about income tax. 8 MR. DANDAR: Great. Okay. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Now, one thing I wanted to clear up. When Jesse 11 Prince was looking for an attorney for the thing that 12 happened to him, the tampering with the witness, I referred 13 him to Mr. McGowan. Is that correct? 14 A When he was looking for an attorney to sue 15 Scientology? 16 Q Right. 17 A Yes. 18 Q Right. And you and I and Mr. Prince went to 19 Mr. McGowan's office for a conference, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. And then when the LMT got sued in the 22 breach of contract case before Judge Baird, isn't it true 23 that you called me up and asked me for a referral to an 24 attorney, and I referred you to Mr. McGowan after I first 25 talked to him to see if he was interested in representing KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1176 1 you or the LMT? Isn't that correct? 2 A You say it with a lot of forcefulness, and so it 3 may be. 4 Q You don't remember that? 5 A I don't, really. 6 Q It's just a few months ago, isn't it? 7 A Okay. I don't remember that. 8 Q Okay. 9 A I'm not saying it didn't happen, Mr. Dandar. 10 Q Okay. Now, did you ever tell me that you were a 11 spy for Mr. Minton whenever you would come to my office and 12 I would ask you questions as a consultant? 13 A I didn't characterize it that way. 14 Q Why do you characterize it that way in your 15 affidavit of April 29th -- 16 A Because it's -- 17 Q 2000? 18 A Because it's basically what I was. 19 THE COURT: Is that -- "eyes and ears," is 20 that the spy? 21 MR. DANDAR: She used the word "spy." 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Did you not? As well as eyes and ears in your 24 affidavit of 2002. 25 A Yes, I did, and I believe you were acutely aware KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1177 1 of the fact that I was reporting everything to Mr. Minton, 2 and that's why you would couch everything that you would 3 say to me the way you did, Mr. Dandar. 4 Q So you weren't a very good spy if I knew you were 5 being a spy then, were you? Are you saying that I knew you 6 were a spy? 7 A That's your position. 8 Q Are you saying that I knew you were a spy for 9 Mr. Minton? 10 A You knew that everything that you were saying to 11 me was being reported to Mr. Minton. 12 Q Okay. 13 A And that's why you didn't like talking to me very 14 much. 15 Q Isn't it true in 1998 you introduced me to Jesse 16 Prince? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And isn't it true the first time that Jesse 19 Prince came into my office was when you and he were 20 reviewing the Lisa McPherson PC folders? 21 A That could be. 22 Q And isn't it true that that happened in November 23 of 1998? 24 A That could be. 25 Q And from those -- your examination with KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1178 1 Mr. Prince for a few days of the PC folders, you and 2 Mr. Prince told me to go ahead and get the 1995 folders 3 only at that point in time. 4 A Why do we -- what was the -- what were we doing 5 at that time? Can you refresh my memory? 6 Q You don't remember? 7 A Why -- 8 Q You were reviewing the PC folders. Do you 9 remember that? 10 A Yes. 11 Q In my office on O'Brien Street? 12 A In the conference room. 13 Q Right, the three-story building that has no 14 elevator? Do you remember that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And isn't it true that at that time I was 17 not paying you at all? 18 A That's correct. 19 Q And I didn't pay Mr. Prince to do that either. 20 Isn't that true? 21 A I don't know. I know what he was being paid by 22 Mr. Minton directly. I thought he was also being paid by 23 you then. Perhaps you didn't start paying him until 24 December. 25 Q Do you have any idea when I started to pay KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1179 1 Mr. Prince? 2 A Do I have any idea why? 3 Q Yes -- when. 4 A I believe it was at the end of -- end of 1998 or 5 perhaps it was at the beginning of '99. 6 Q Did you give me orders to hire Mr. Prince? 7 A Did I? No. 8 Q Did anyone give me an order to hire Mr. Prince as 9 an expert witness? 10 A As I understand it, I think Mr. Minton strongly 11 suggested that you should. 12 Q When did that take place? 13 A I don't remember. When did you hire him as an 14 expert? 15 Q Would it surprise you to know that I decided -- I 16 am the only one that decided to hire Mr. Prince? 17 A That would surprise me. 18 Q Really. And when did I -- when did Mr. Minton 19 suggest strongly that I hire Mr. Prince? 20 A Beginning -- before he came to Clearwater in '98. 21 Q So you don't know that I actually retained 22 Mr. Prince in June of 1998? You don't know that, do you? 23 A I just said I don't remember when. 24 Q Okay. 25 A But I know that Mr. Minton was supporting him, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1180 1 either directly or indirectly, since July of 1998, which is 2 what I testified to. 3 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I do have an 4 objection to the form that's being utilized. He's 5 testifying and asking the witness is it true or not 6 and then commenting. And I don't think that's what we 7 anticipated, nor did I think the Court anticipated 8 that. If he's got questions, he asks questions. But 9 he testifies and then says "isn't that true" or "you 10 didn't know that." 11 THE COURT: Actually, to some extent that's 12 what a leading question is. You know, a leading 13 question is just sort of that. It's a lawyer 14 testifying. 15 MR. FUGATE: I understand that. But in this 16 particular instance, I just object to that being 17 utilized in the form of his stating things as a fact. 18 THE COURT: If in fact he -- if in fact he 19 does not testify, I will not take any of that as 20 testimony from Mr. Dandar. 21 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 22 THE COURT: But he can lead this witness. 23 As a matter of fact, leading questions are -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I have no problem with that, 25 Judge. It's just that when he testifies, "you didn't KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1181 1 know anything about that," that's testimony. That's 2 not cross-examination, in my judgment. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Just for the record, you used the word "spy" in 5 paragraph 22 of your April 2002 affidavit. Is that 6 correct? 7 A Let me take a look, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q All right. Right after you say "eyes and ears." 9 A Sorry? 10 Q Right after you say "eyes and ears." 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. 13 THE COURT: In paragraph 22? Oh, I see it, 14 okay. Thank you. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, when I first met you and your 17 husband in the spring of 1997 in Seattle, you did not want 18 to participate at all in being my consultant in the Lisa 19 McPherson case. Isn't that correct? 20 A I don't recall that that was the case. 21 Q Do you recall that it was your husband, Vaughn 22 Young, that wanted to be the expert and help me as an 23 expert or a consultant in the Lisa McPherson case? 24 A Would you like me to tell you what I recall? 25 Q No, just yes or no is all I need. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1182 1 A Okay. What was the question again? 2 Q Isn't it true that your husband, Vaughn, is the 3 one that wanted to be my expert and consultant in the Lisa 4 McPherson case? When I first met you -- 5 A Okay. It's true that Mr. Young wanted to be your 6 consultant. That is true. 7 Q And isn't it true that he actually testified on 8 behalf of the estate as an expert in Scientology practices? 9 A I believe he was deposed and filed a declaration. 10 Q And didn't he also participate in a video trial 11 deposition because of his progressive cancer to preserve 12 his testimony for trial? 13 A Oh. Well, okay. I thought that was a 14 deposition, but if that was what it was, that's fine. I 15 attended. 16 Q Now, isn't it true that your husband, Vaughn 17 Young, as my expert slash consultant is the one that 18 educated me on Scientology when I first visited up there in 19 the spring of 1997 at Seattle, Washington? 20 A It's true that he did that. 21 Q Isn't it true that he also helped draft many 22 paragraphs of the first amended complaint that deal with 23 Scientology? 24 A I believe that is true. 25 Q Which also included -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1183 1 THE COURT: Are you getting ready to look at 2 the first amended -- 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 4 THE COURT: -- complaint? 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Which also includes paragraph 12 -- 8 THE WITNESS: Are we done with this now? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes, we are. Let me take that 10 away. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Wait, wait, wait. 12 There's something underneath that. 13 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Do you need that? 14 THE WITNESS: Do I? 15 MR. DANDAR: Do you need to read that? 16 THE COURT: Is that the one that was mine? 17 THE WITNESS: This was filed -- oh, yes, 18 this is yours. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q In fact, the one you just handed back to the 21 Judge, that was a declaration of yours from another case 22 that you had given me -- 23 THE WITNESS: I need it back. Thank you. 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1184 1 Q -- that you had given me to support the estate's 2 motion to add on David Miscavige as a defendant in the 3 case. 4 A I believe so. 5 Q Okay. 6 A Are we done with it now? 7 Q Yes. Yes, we're done with it now. 8 THE WITNESS: Thank you. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q So paragraph -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Just for the record, which one 12 were we talking about? 13 THE COURT: This is the one that has been 14 filed in this case. 15 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 16 THE COURT: And it's a declaration -- it 17 supposedly was attached to a motion that they're going 18 to provide to us. In other words, this is a 19 declaration of Stacy M. filed in this case, and that's 20 what it says, "Declaration of Stacy M." 21 MR. WEINBERG: Right. And does it have a 22 date on it at the end? 23 THE COURT: It does not that I can see. 24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, let me correct you. 25 That's a declaration from another case that was filed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1185 1 in this case, attached to the motion to add. 2 THE COURT: 13th of March of 1997 -- 3 MR. WEINBERG: Right. 4 THE COURT: -- in Seattle. That's the date 5 of this declaration. But as I understand, it was 6 attached to a motion -- 7 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 8 THE COURT: -- filed in this case. And 9 you're now saying it was a motion to add David 10 Miscavige. 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. But that particular 12 declaration came from another case where Ms. Young, 13 Ms. Brooks, was an expert witness. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Do you remember the name of the case, Ms. Brooks? 17 THE WITNESS: Could I have it back? 18 THE COURT: Sure. 19 A If you would just let me look at it for a minute, 20 I can probably tell you. 21 MR. WEINBERG: While she's looking, the 22 motion you're talking about is your September 7, '99 23 motion to add David Miscavige? 24 MR. DANDAR: Probably. 25 THE COURT: Well, there were a couple, I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1186 1 think. One was granted and one was denied. 2 THE WITNESS: Oh. I think this was the one 3 that was filed in the Wollersheim case, your Honor. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Okay. And that talks about the corporate 6 structure as being on paper only, otherwise ignored in 7 practice? 8 A Yes. 9 Q All right. That was a truthful declaration, 10 correct? 11 A It was true. 12 Q Thank you. Now -- 13 A To the best of my belief. 14 Q All right. When -- when you started to meet with 15 Mr. Rosen in March of 2002 and thereafter with Ms. Yingling 16 and Mr. Rinder -- 17 THE COURT: Are we done going through her 18 affidavit? 19 MR. DANDAR: No. 20 THE WITNESS: I thought that's what we were 21 going to do. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Well, I'm going to come right back to that, 24 because this reminded me -- 25 A Are we done with this one? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1187 1 Q I'm sorry. First amended complaint, 2 paragraph 12, talks about David Miscavige running all of 3 Scientology, doesn't it. 4 A Let me just read it, okay? 5 Q All right. 6 A Okay. 7 Q Is that what it talks about? 8 A And this is -- what is this? The first amended 9 complaint? 10 Q Right. 11 A Okay. 12 Q Isn't it true that that paragraph was drafted by 13 your former husband, Mr. Young, back in the spring of 1997? 14 A I don't -- either I don't know or I don't 15 remember. 16 Q Okay. And if it was drafted by Mr. Young back in 17 the spring of 1997, it was certainly before you, I, or 18 Mr. Young ever met personally and talked to Mr. Minton, 19 correct? 20 A It -- I'm not sure what you're saying. I never 21 met Mr. Minton until October -- or, November actually. 22 Q Okay. 23 THE COURT: Of '97? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1188 1 Q Now, the question that I have is that in 2 paragraph 23, you talk about -- 3 MR. FUGATE: Of what? 4 A Of the affidavit? 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Now we're back to the affidavit of April 2002, 7 paragraph 22. 8 A Twenty-two? 9 Q Yes. You talk about being my consultant in the 10 Lisa McPherson case. And you have been my consultant in 11 the Lisa McPherson case, correct? 12 THE COURT: Are you -- are you skipping over 13 some of the paragraphs in between? 14 MR. DANDAR: I hope not. 15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. I think we've 16 done it. 17 THE COURT: Have we? Okay. 18 THE WITNESS: Twenty-two, yes. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You have been my consultant in the Lisa McPherson 21 case, correct? 22 A Yes, you had hired me, along with Vaughn, my 23 husband, in 1997, both of us. 24 Q And in fact, do you recall that I only sent one 25 check that had your name on it and your husband's name on KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1189 1 it? All the other checks just had Vaughn's name on it. Do 2 you recall that? 3 A I don't, but it would be in keeping with the way 4 Vaughn and I always used to get paid. The checks didn't 5 need to be paid to both of us. We had a joint account. 6 Q Okay. Now, when you handed over my work product 7 letter of -- Exhibit 73, I believe, of the defense, where I 8 talked about Miscavige and what evidence do you have and 9 make sure that I had enough evidence to add him on or to 10 consider him as a party defendant, in May of 1997, that 11 letter that you handed over to the Church of Scientology -- 12 A They already had a copy, Mr. Dandar. 13 Q Well, I'm not so sure. How would they get a copy 14 of that letter? 15 A I'm not sure. I'm not sure. 16 Q Do you recall testifying last week that you 17 handed it -- you went to Atlanta to get that letter -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- and handed it to them? 20 THE COURT: She also testified she thought 21 they had it. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And did they have it? 24 A I believe they did. 25 Q So when you handed them this letter, they said, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1190 1 "Oh, here, we've already got another copy right here"? 2 A No, they didn't say that. 3 Q Well, how did you come to say now that you think 4 they already had that letter? 5 A I didn't say that now; I said that last week. 6 Q Well, whenever you said that the first time. 7 What makes you say that? What are you basing that on? 8 A My recollection. 9 Q And who produced that letter that you saw for you 10 to testify that they already had the letter that I sent to 11 you and your husband in May of '97? 12 A I believe it was part of papers that Mr. Rinder 13 provided to us. 14 Q What date? 15 A I don't remember. 16 Q Saturday after Judge Schaeffer's hearing? 17 A No. It was much later. 18 Q Did you ask them how they got that letter? 19 A No, I didn't. 20 THE COURT: But you did tell us that you 21 weren't surprised that they had it. 22 THE WITNESS: I wasn't, your Honor. And to 23 be -- to tell you the truth, it's possible that I 24 turned it over in earlier discovery, but I don't 25 recall. I do know that I was -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1191 1 THE COURT: You weren't suggesting that you 2 weren't surprised because you thought they got it out 3 of your house or your husband's house or Mr. Dandar's 4 office? 5 THE WITNESS: No. I didn't think that. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Now, you retained an attorney for the Lisa 8 McPherson Trust in paragraph 23, John Merrett, that 9 Patricia Greenway referred you to, correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And she found him on the Internet chat channel, 12 correct? 13 A That's what she told me. 14 Q All right. Now, you say here that Mr. Merrett 15 is, quote, "an extension of Mr. Dandar." What do you mean 16 by that? 17 A Well, I think -- I think it speaks for itself in 18 this paragraph. 19 THE COURT: What paragraph are we on? I'm 20 sorry. 21 MR. DANDAR: Twenty-three. 22 THE WITNESS: We're on 23 now. 23 THE COURT: Thank you. 24 MR. DANDAR: Bottom of 23, four lines from 25 the bottom. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1192 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q So he's an extension of Mr. Dandar simply 4 because, quote, "he's coordinating with him on pleadings he 5 filed and arguments he made"? 6 A Well, if you recall, you were concerned about 7 representing everybody and thought it would be a good idea 8 for us to get another attorney. 9 Q In fact, I only represented the LMT once, and 10 that was before Judge Penich on a restraining order, is 11 that correct, that Mr. Howd and the Church of Scientology 12 filed against Mr. Minton and the LMT? 13 THE COURT: We know you were the 14 representative to file the corporate papers. 15 MR. DANDAR: Well, that's true. That's one 16 time. 17 THE COURT: Well, that's then another time. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q All right. Is that the only time I represented 20 the LMT, the incorporation papers in that one hearing with 21 Judge Penich in early 2000, I told you -- 22 A You certainly represented -- 23 MR. FUGATE: I object to that because it 24 misstates -- that question misstates the record in 25 this case. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1193 1 THE COURT: I only know of those two times. 2 There may be more, I don't know, but that's all I know 3 of at this point. So I'm going to overrule it based 4 on my knowledge at this point. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Is there any other time that I represented the 7 LMT that you know? 8 A Well, I believe you represented me and 9 Mr. Minton. I'm not sure about the corporation. 10 Q When did I represent you? 11 A Well, there were a number of times when there 12 were hearings and you were the only attorney. 13 Q Okay. 14 A And you -- you were concerned about being the 15 only attorney representing everybody and thought it would 16 be a good idea to have another attorney to separate things 17 out. 18 Q Are you -- from this statement in your affidavit, 19 are you inferring that I was in control of Mr. Merrett? 20 A Did I say that? 21 Q No. I'm asking if you're inferring that. 22 A I would be implying that, but I don't believe I 23 am. 24 Q All right. You're not implying that, right? 25 A I don't believe I said that. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1194 1 Q Okay. All right. And by the way, you mentioned 2 or the Court mentioned this, and I just want to clear 3 something up. Isn't it true that I have never participated 4 in a picket of Scientology except the vigils that were held 5 in honor of Lisa McPherson that were held in the evening 6 that were not pickets? 7 A What about the one outside the criminal 8 courthouse, Ken? 9 Q Was that a picket? Is that your testimony? I 10 need to clarify that. 11 THE COURT: You sure it wasn't a vigil? 12 MR. DANDAR: No. It was just a picture. It 13 wasn't a picket. I wasn't holding a sign. 14 THE COURT: Whatever it was, Mr. Dandar, 15 until this case is over, I would hope that I don't 16 have to see them again. 17 MR. DANDAR: But I'm not -- 18 THE COURT: Do what you want to do, but 19 frankly, I didn't like it when I saw it. I still 20 don't like it. I don't think it's appropriate for 21 lawyers to be pictured like that. So whatever it was, 22 in all candor, I think it ought not be lawyers 23 representing people participating in it. 24 I mean, it's a First Amendment, you can do 25 it. You have every right to do it. So does everybody KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1195 1 else. But I don't think lawyers ought to be out 2 carrying signs. I don't think it's a good thing. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, I was not carrying a 5 sign at the courthouse? 6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't think he 7 was actually carrying a sign. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: But he was walking with us 10 carrying signs. 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I thought I saw you 12 with a sign. 13 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to see the 14 picture? 15 THE COURT: Yes. The one out in front of 16 the courthouse or the one in Clearwater? 17 MR. DANDAR: No, just the one in front of 18 the criminal complex after Mr. Minton came out of a 19 hearing. We stood there and had our picture taken. 20 THE WITNESS: Well, now, you know, 21 Counselor, here I'm looking at "Lisa's blood on 22 Scientology's hands. Scientology, Hubbard's Third 23 Reich." And here's a lawyer. I mean, I just don't 24 know. If it were me, when I was a lawyer, I wouldn't 25 have been in that picture. I mean, you know, you have KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1196 1 a First Amendment right to be -- those are not signs 2 that lawyers ought to be taking pictures with, in my 3 humble opinion. 4 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I am not holding -- 5 THE COURT: It will have nothing to do with 6 my decision in this case. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: I think it was in poor taste. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q I am not holding a picket sign, for the record, 11 correct? 12 A Yes. I just told the judge that. 13 Q All right. Now, you recall that there was a 14 great concern by you and Mr. Minton in the year 2000 and 15 2001 to set the record straight in this court as to the 16 involvement of the LMT and Mr. Minton with the wrongful 17 death case? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And Mr. Minton and you both signed affidavits 20 talking about the -- denying that there was any agreement 21 between the estate and Mr. Minton and the LMT? 22 A Yes, Mr. Dandar, we did. 23 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that those 24 affidavits were prepared by your attorney, Mr. Merrett? 25 A I'm not sure if they were prepared by him or you. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1197 1 We were up in New Hampshire, and you're the one that wanted 2 us to sign them. I know that for sure. Whether you and 3 Mr. -- 4 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: I was just going to say, is the 6 answer you don't know? You don't know who prepared 7 it? 8 THE WITNESS: I don't. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 A I mean, I assumed it was you. It may have been 11 him. But it was certainly -- whether it was you or him, it 12 was at your behest. You're the one that was talking to 13 Mr. Minton about the need to sign it. You're the one that 14 got Mr. Minton to sign a false affidavit. You're the one 15 that told him to lie. 16 THE COURT: You're really well past the 17 question. The question is whether or not Mr. Merrett 18 prepared -- 19 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 20 THE COURT: The answer to that is "I don't 21 know." Then that's where that can stop. I mean, I've 22 heard this other before, so I don't need to hear it 23 again. 24 THE WITNESS: Okay. Sorry, your Honor. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1198 1 Q Let's jump -- let's jump to August of '99. 2 A Jump back. 3 Q In August of '99, you in your affidavit 4 somewhere -- I just don't have a paragraph in front of 5 me -- that you say you and Mr. Minton met me in 6 Philadelphia while I was in Philadelphia in another case 7 taking a doctor's deposition. Do you recall that? 8 A I'm going to find it, if you don't mind. 9 Q All right. 10 A We're going back now. 11 Q I don't think this was covered, so I -- 12 A We're going back to -- 13 MR. FUGATE: Paragraph 12. 14 A Yes. We're going way back. 15 THE COURT: I thought he skipped some 16 paragraphs. I was down to about paragraph 10, and 17 then we jumped to 20. 18 MR. WEINBERG: It's paragraph 12 -- 19 THE WITNESS: Okay. 20 MR. WEINBERG: -- bottom of page 5. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Do you recall that the only thing that happened 24 in Philadelphia was that I met you and Mr. Minton, Rod 25 Keller, and some other folks at -- for dinner? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1199 1 A That is so incorrect. 2 Q Do you recall that we had dinner in Philadelphia? 3 A Yes, I do, and those people were at the dinner, 4 including Charlotte Kates. 5 Q Is that the young girl who had just left 6 Scientology? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And we were accosted or she was accosted by 9 Scientology people from the local Philadelphia Org at the 10 dinner table? 11 A The people that came into the dining room while 12 we were eating. 13 Q And your affidavit states Mr. Minton gave me a 14 check for $250,000 then? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Were you present when he handed me that check? 17 A I believe I was. 18 Q Are you sure? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Do you know the date of that dinner? 21 A August '99. 22 Q The check is dated after I left Philadelphia. 23 Would that help refresh your memory if I was handed a check 24 at dinner? 25 A I believe he postdated it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1200 1 Q Did you have a discussion with me at that dinner 2 that I wasn't listening to you about how to handle the 3 wrongful death case of Lisa McPherson? 4 A Yes, as I wrote in this. 5 Q And that was in 1999 I wasn't listening to you, 6 correct? 7 A Well, let's see what I said. Mr. Prince and I 8 both felt -- "by then I was not at all happy about the way 9 Mr. Dandar was conducting the wrongful death case." 10 Q Right. So that was August of '99, and I wasn't 11 listening to you in 1998 either, was I? 12 A Did I say that? 13 Q I hadn't been listening to you at all. Isn't 14 that the truth? 15 A No. 16 Q Ever. I have never listened to you. Isn't that 17 the truth? 18 A I don't think so. Otherwise you wouldn't have 19 hired me, Mr. Dandar. 20 Q Isn't it true that I decided not to have you 21 testify in the wrongful death case but rather have your 22 former husband, Mr. Vaughn Young, testify as the expert for 23 the estate? 24 A I believe that was because of my relationship 25 with Mr. Minton. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1201 1 THE COURT: So the answer to the question is 2 yes? 3 THE WITNESS: The answer to the question 4 that you -- that he hired my ex-husband as an expert? 5 THE COURT: No. If we go back to the 6 question -- normally when a lawyer says "isn't it 7 true," they expect the answer to be yes. 8 So go back and read the question to her. 9 (The reporter read back the last question as 10 follows: "Isn't it true that I decided not 11 to have you testify in the wrongful death 12 case but rather have your former husband, 13 Mr. Vaughn Young, testify as the expert for 14 the estate?") 15 THE COURT: You gave your explanation, but I 16 didn't hear your answer. 17 A Yes. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Okay. Now, did you tell me in the spring of '97, 20 the summer of '97, or the fall of '97, any time in 1997, 21 that I should add on as a defendant David Miscavige to the 22 wrongful death case? 23 A Possibly. 24 Q Okay. And if you did, I didn't listen to you 25 then, did I, because he wasn't added on in '97. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1202 1 A Okay. 2 Q Now, when did you first come into contact with 3 Mr. Prince after you left the Church of Scientology? 4 A July of '98. 5 THE COURT: That's the first time you and 6 Mr. Prince met? 7 THE WITNESS: Well, since we've been in 8 Scientology, yes, your Honor. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q In fact, while you were in Scientology and being 11 punished in what's called the Rehabilitation Project Force 12 out in the desert of California, you and Mr. Prince were 13 involved in an isolation watch of a young woman who was 14 psychotic, correct? 15 A Okay. 16 THE COURT: You've got a lot in there. 17 MR. DANDAR: Is that too much? Okay. 18 A That's too much, because part is right and part 19 is not. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Let's go back and make it simple. Isn't it true 22 that you and Mr. Prince participated in an isolation watch 23 while you were both members of the Church of Scientology? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Was that only one time? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1203 1 A Well, it was one -- it wasn't one day. 2 Q But it was one -- 3 A But it was one person. 4 Q One person, okay. Were you friends with 5 Mr. Prince then? 6 A Well, yes. 7 Q And you agree that Mr. Prince when he was -- as 8 an executive at RTC was a lot higher in authority and 9 position than you were in Scientology? 10 THE WITNESS: That's going to be a little 11 bit difficult to answer yes or no to, your Honor -- 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 THE WITNESS: -- if I might clarify it. 14 THE COURT: You can explain it. 15 A During what I believe was a two-year period when 16 Mr. Prince was DIG External, he was in a higher position 17 than I was during that period of time. During the period 18 of time when I was at ASI, I believe one would say that I 19 was in a higher position than he was, although one could 20 quibble. 21 Q And ASI is a for-profit company, again involved 22 in management of the nonprofit churches? 23 A It did. 24 Q And that's because David Miscavige was the 25 chairman of the board of ASI at that particular time, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1204 1 correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Okay. And that -- he was also the captain of the 4 Sea Org at that particular time, correct? 5 A I'm not sure, but he had a -- he had another job 6 that he was still dealing with, which he had had prior to 7 the establishment of ASI, which was called Special Project 8 IC -- or, no, Special Project Up, sorry. 9 Q Let's jump to Mr. Prince out of Scientology, 10 you're out of Scientology. You said -- 11 MR. FUGATE: I know we're jumping around, 12 but I never did think I heard a date on this isolation 13 watch that he mentioned. 14 THE COURT: I didn't either. I don't think 15 we ever followed up on that. 16 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, I didn't ask. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q Go ahead. What was the date of the isolation 19 watch that Mr. Prince participated in? 20 A I believe it was nineteen eighty- -- maybe 1987 21 or 1988 -- 22 Q Okay. 23 A -- by which time Mr. Prince didn't have a high 24 position anymore. 25 Q Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1205 1 A Neither did I. 2 Q All right. And then Mr. Prince lost his 3 executive position because he was neutral in the power 4 struggle between Mr. Miscavige and Pat Broker when 5 Mr. Hubbard died. Is that correct? 6 MR. FUGATE: I object to the presentation by 7 Mr. Dandar and the factual basis of the leading 8 questions. 9 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it. 10 Overruled. 11 A That isn't what Mr. Prince told me. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Well, isn't that true? 14 A Well, I don't know. I wasn't there. 15 Q Were you out of Scientology then? Or were you 16 just in a different department? 17 A No, I wasn't at INT. 18 Q Okay. 19 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what did you say? 20 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry, your Honor. I 21 wasn't at INT, which is sort of a nickname for the 22 place that's east of LA where a lot of management of 23 Scientology takes place. 24 THE COURT: Is that I-N-T for the record? 25 THE WITNESS: I-N-T. It's short for KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1206 1 "international." 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Now, you first met -- got reacquainted with 5 Mr. Prince when you were both former Scientologists in what 6 month and year? 7 A July '98. 8 Q July '98. And you talked Mr. Prince into going 9 to Colorado to work for FACTNet, correct? 10 A Talked him into it? 11 Q Yes. Did you suggest or talk -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- him into it? 14 A Told him to. 15 Q Okay. And you and he renewed your friendship, 16 correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Okay. Now, I know that you and Prince -- 19 recently Mr. Prince have had a falling out of sorts, 20 correct? 21 A Mr. Prince has had a falling out, I would say. 22 Q Okay. 23 A I haven't. 24 Q All right. While you knew Mr. Prince in 1998, 25 1999, all the way up to April of 2002, you considered him KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1207 1 to be an honest and truthful person? 2 A I like him a lot. 3 Q Is he an honest and truthful person? 4 A No. 5 Q He's a liar? 6 A I -- I know that he has lied to me. 7 Q Okay. About -- is he a liar on Scientology tech, 8 or does he know what he's talking about? 9 A He knows what he's talking about. 10 Q Okay. Now, when he signed an affidavit in the 11 summer of 1999 talking about his experience in Scientology 12 in the upper management with David Miscavige and Marty 13 Rathbun and Mr. Rinder, did you have any basis in fact, any 14 personal -- 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. I object to that. 16 That's not an accurate statement. It's not what's in 17 the affidavit either, if that makes any difference. 18 THE COURT: What, Mr. Princes's affidavit? 19 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 20 THE COURT: I frankly don't remember. Let's 21 look at it. I thought that at one point in time that 22 Mr. Rathbun and Mr. -- somebody else, not Rinder; 23 Ritman or -- 24 MR. DANDAR: Rathbun. 25 THE COURT: Rathbun. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1208 1 MR. DANDAR: And Rinder. 2 THE COURT: There's Rathbun and there's 3 another one. 4 THE WITNESS: Sutter. Sutter, maybe? 5 THE COURT: No, that's not it. 6 MR. DANDAR: No. 7 THE COURT: Who were the parties that you 8 added besides Miscavige? 9 MR. FUGATE: Mithoff. 10 THE COURT: Mithoff. 11 MR. DANDAR: Mithoff. 12 THE COURT: Mithoff. 13 MR. DANDAR: M-I-T-H-O-F-F. 14 THE COURT: Those are the ones that I 15 thought I read about in Princes's affidavit. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 17 THE COURT: So is that what you're saying is 18 not factual? 19 MR. FUGATE: That's what I'm saying. It's 20 not in the affidavit. It's not an accurate statement. 21 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to do this faster. 22 Let me withdraw the question. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q You read Mr. Princes's affidavit that's dated 25 August 20th of 1999? Let me just hand you another copy. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1209 1 A Thank you. 2 Q It's already in the record. 3 A Yes. 4 Q Did you read it carefully? 5 A Some time ago. 6 Q Did you read it after he completed it? 7 A Sometime after he completed it, I did. 8 Q Well, didn't you read it like the day after he 9 completed it? 10 A I don't recall, but -- 11 Q Okay. 12 A -- if you know. 13 Q Didn't it take him like four or five days to 14 write this affidavit? 15 A It probably would have. 16 Q Okay. 17 THE COURT: I guess the real question is, if 18 this was filed the 20th of August of 1999, before it 19 was filed, did you have an opportunity to review it? 20 THE WITNESS: I -- I think I testified 21 earlier, your Honor, I don't recall if I had an 22 opportunity to review it, but I did have several 23 discussions leading up to the writing of it. 24 THE COURT: Okay. 25 THE WITNESS: And I may have reviewed it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1210 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q You previously testified that you had to put 3 Mr. Prince in the mood to write an affidavit. Is this the 4 affidavit that you had to put him in the mood for? 5 A I don't recall that I said that. 6 Q Okay. I think you did, but if you don't 7 recall -- 8 THE COURT: It was something. I don't know 9 if it was "in the mood." You had to get him riled up 10 or -- 11 THE WITNESS: I think you said that, your 12 Honor. 13 THE COURT: Did I? 14 MR. LIROT: "Right frame of mind," I think, 15 or something. 16 THE COURT: Something. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q How did you get him in the right frame of mind? 19 A Well, Mr. Prince and I had had a number of 20 conversations about our duties as your experts or your 21 consultants or whatever. And we had had a number of 22 discussions about what was needed in the wrongful death 23 case, what our role needed to be in that. 24 Q Did you tell Mr. Prince what he needed to do was 25 lie under oath to help the estate in the wrongful death KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1211 1 case? 2 A No. 3 Q That affidavit in front of you, is that -- after 4 you reviewed it, did you ever go up to Mr. Prince and say, 5 "Hey, what you have in this affidavit is just total lies 6 and you can't say this"? 7 A No, I didn't say it was total lies. I said I 8 thought it was pretty over the top and I wanted -- 9 THE REPORTER: You thought it was what? I'm 10 sorry. 11 THE WITNESS: Over the top. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q What part is over the top? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. Could she finish 15 her answer? 16 A And I thought he was going to have a hard time 17 substantiating some of the things that he said. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q What part is over the top? 20 A Okay. Do you want me to read it to you? 21 Q I just want you to read those portions. 22 THE COURT: If it's a long -- 23 THE WITNESS: No, no, it's a short part -- 24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 25 THE WITNESS: -- that I'm just going to give KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1212 1 as an example here, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: Well, now, the question is what 3 parts are over the top, so -- 4 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 5 A "Lisa McPherson was held against her will in 6 isolation, and when she did not respond --" 7 THE COURT: Don't go so fast. I'm not even 8 up with you. What page are you on? 9 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 44. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: There are other parts, but 12 I'll just do this one as an example. 13 A "Lisa McPherson was held against her will in 14 isolation, and when she did not respond to Scientology 15 technical handling, Flag, on orders from David Miscavige, 16 Ray Mithoff, and Marty Rathbun, sat mute and watched her 17 die after she no longer had the strength to fight for her 18 freedom. Her death was no accident. It was the chosen 19 option to minimize a public relations flap." 20 Q What's over the top about that? 21 A Well, it -- it didn't align with the experience 22 that Jesse and I had had together on an isolation watch, 23 and I didn't think Jesse had any experience with -- with 24 these people having done that with anyone to be able to say 25 that about Lisa. And I was concerned that Jesse was going KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1213 1 to have to go on the stand as your expert to try to 2 substantiate the motion that you had filed based on Jesse's 3 affidavit, and I felt that you had used Jesse and 4 encouraged him to say things that would -- that would 5 substantiate your claims, that Jesse was going to end up in 6 a really awkward position up on the witness stand when he 7 was cross-examined by Scientology attorneys and couldn't 8 substantiate what he had said. 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, for the record I 10 would make an objection to Mr. Dandar making faces to 11 the witness, and I want the record to reflect that. 12 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I didn't see it. 13 MR. FUGATE: I'm just stating it from my 14 observation. 15 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'm ignoring it 16 because I know he's very hostile to me. 17 THE COURT: Okay. Don't make faces at the 18 witness. 19 MR. DANDAR: Yes, your Honor. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Ms. Brooks, someone who is held in an isolation 22 watch is held against their will, correct? 23 A Well, someone who is in an isolation watch is in 24 the middle of a psychotic episode, Mr. Dandar. 25 Q Are they free to come and go? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1214 1 A If they insisted on leaving, they would be 2 allowed to. In fact, Mr. Prince was the one who would talk 3 to the parents of this one woman that we were doing 4 together. 5 Q This woman that you and Mr. Prince were watching 6 together, what type of room was she kept in? 7 A A little wooden shed -- 8 Q Outside -- 9 A -- that had -- 10 Q -- correct? 11 A Well, the shed was outside -- 12 Q Okay. 13 A -- but if you were in it, you were inside. 14 Q Okay. Was she in this wooden shed -- this was 15 out in the middle of the desert, right? 16 A Well, all of INT is in the middle of the desert. 17 Q Okay. So this wooden shed is out in the middle 18 of the desert. Is it air-conditioned? 19 A No. 20 Q Is there a lock on the door? 21 A I don't believe so. 22 Q Are there windows? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. So this woman that you and Mr. Prince were 25 watching in this wooden shed, was she free to come and go? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1215 1 A Yes. As a matter of fact, we went with her when 2 she wanted to go. 3 Q Where did she go? 4 A She would walk around the grounds. 5 Q She could go get in a car and go downtown and get 6 a Dairy Queen or a sandwich? 7 A She didn't want to do that, Mr. Dandar. 8 Q In fact, you and Mr. Prince were held in this 9 prison camp. You weren't even allowed to go anywhere, were 10 you. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor, move 12 to strike. And I would ask Mr. Dandar to step back to 13 the podium. 14 THE COURT: You have to step back if you 15 don't have any paper in your hand. And when you start 16 saying things like "prison camps," you're going to 17 bring an objection. So if you want to ask a question 18 about prison camps, fine. If you don't want to ask 19 that question, you have to be careful not to put 20 something offensive in there that's going to draw an 21 objection. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Isn't the RPF a prison camp, Ms. Brooks? 24 A I have characterized it that way. 25 Q And isn't that truthful? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1216 1 A No. 2 Q You were free to leave anytime you wanted to? 3 A Well, as a matter of fact, yes. 4 Q There's no fence around the RPF in Hemet, 5 wherever this is -- 6 A I wasn't on the RPF in Hemet, Mr. Dandar. 7 Q Where this isolation watch took place in the 8 desert, were you on the RPF? 9 A No. 10 Q You were there voluntarily to watch this 11 psychotic woman? 12 A No, I wasn't there for that purpose, but I did 13 voluntarily watch her. 14 Q You weren't ordered to watch her? 15 A I was told to, and I said okay. 16 Q Okay. And Mr. Prince, he was on the RPF at the 17 same time as you, correct? 18 A No. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Excuse me. She just said at 20 the time she wasn't on the RPF. And then Mr. Dandar 21 says you were on the RPF, Mr. Prince was on the RPF at 22 the same time. If he wants to pick a different time 23 to talk about, fine, but this is misleading. 24 THE COURT: Sustained. 25 MR. DANDAR: My mistake. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1217 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q When you and Mr. Prince were in the isolation 3 watch with this psychotic woman who was in the shed, were 4 you on the RPF? 5 A No. 6 Q And was he on the RPF? 7 A I don't think so. 8 Q Okay. When you were -- when you were on the RPF, 9 were you on the RPF at the same time as Mr. Prince? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. When you were on the RPF, was it in the 12 same location in the desert? 13 A No. 14 Q Where was it at? 15 A In Los Angeles. 16 Q Okay. My mistake. When Mr. Prince was on the 17 RPF, where was his at? 18 A He told me he was on the RPF at INT. 19 Q Okay. That's out in the desert, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Okay. So this woman in the shed, was she free to 22 leave the compound, the Scientology property, and just go 23 whenever she wanted to go? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, asked and 25 answered. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1218 1 THE COURT: I don't think that he asked her 2 if she was free to leave the compound. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well -- 4 MR. MOXON: Lack of foundation, compound. 5 THE COURT: Well, whatever. I'm taking this 6 now more than just walking outside the shed and 7 leaving the whole property. 8 Is that what you're asking? 9 MR. DANDAR: Right. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Was she free to leave the whole property by 12 herself? 13 A If she had insisted on doing so, she would have 14 been allowed to. She never did. 15 Q Now, is there anything else in that affidavit -- 16 when you say "over the top," were you saying that it's a 17 lie or just that it's going to be difficult to prove? What 18 do you mean by that? 19 A Which one do I get to answer? 20 Q The one about paragraph 44. 21 A So do I get to answer what I mean by that? 22 Q Yes. What do you mean by "over the top"? 23 A Okay. What I mean is he's saying things that are 24 pure speculation, that he can't possibly prove. 25 Q Are you aware of Mr. Princes's experience in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1219 1 Scientology where he saw other people -- 2 THE COURT: You know that's better saved for 3 him unless she was there or something. Mr. Prince can 4 talk about that. 5 MR. DANDAR: All right. 6 EXAMINATION 7 BY THE COURT: 8 Q But I have a question. I read where Mr. Minton 9 said on several occasions on the Internet -- he accused the 10 Church of Scientology of murder. Those were his words, 11 murdering Lisa McPherson. You and he were pals, good 12 friends, intimate. How did he get this idea? He wasn't 13 even a Scientologist. I mean, what caused Mr. Minton to 14 say that she was murdered? 15 A Well, your Honor, the entire critic community -- 16 "critic community," Scientology critic community -- 17 believes that Scientology murdered Lisa McPherson. 18 Q Which included you at the time. 19 A It included me. It included everybody. 20 Q Well, what did you base that on? Just you just 21 thought it? 22 A Your Honor, I never said that Scientology 23 murdered Lisa McPherson. 24 Q Okay. Well, I sure saw it on the Internet in 25 this case because that's the only Internet I see where KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1220 1 Mr. Minton said she was murdered. 2 A Well, Mr. Minton has said a number of things on 3 the Internet that I would have preferred that he not say. 4 Q Okay. Well, I guess my -- I don't know where he 5 got that idea, but I would have had to assume he got it 6 from you or Jesse. 7 A Well -- 8 Q You're intimate with him and Jesse is a good 9 friend of his and you all -- apparently the three of you 10 palled around quite a bit. 11 A Right. And he certainly could have gotten it 12 from Jesse's affidavit. But I told Jesse that I would not 13 have worded this the way he did. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Did you tell Jesse that any other part of his 17 affidavit was untruthful? 18 A I asked him about the end cycle thing. I 19 can't -- I don't remember where that was exactly. 20 THE COURT: In paragraph 43, I think. 21 A We had a conversation about his use of -- where 22 is it? Let me just find it. 23 THE COURT: If you'll look down about 24 five -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1221 1 THE COURT: -- sentences up. 2 A Yes. We had a conversation about this end cycle 3 paragraph. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Right. You're not familiar with that term? 6 A I believe you were in the courtroom the other day 7 when I testified about my familiarity with that term, 8 Mr. Dandar. 9 Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Prince -- did you ever 10 talk to him about this, that he might have a different 11 understanding of how upper management at RTC uses that 12 term? 13 A That wouldn't be accurate. 14 Q How do you know since you were never part of the 15 upper management of RTC? 16 A Well, I think Mr. Prince will tell you the same 17 as I will, that the use of a term like "end cycle" doesn't 18 have anything to do with what echelon administratively 19 you're in in Scientology. It's a technical -- 20 Q You're seeing -- 21 A -- term. 22 Q -- that affidavit, and Mr. Prince talks about 23 seeing other written orders by management of Scientology to 24 people to end cycle. Do you recall that in that affidavit? 25 A I don't. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1222 1 Q One of them being his very close friend, who was 2 dying. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just point her out 4 to where it is? 5 THE COURT: Are you talking about -- I'm 6 looking at page 10. Isn't it paragraph 24 that 7 apparently talks about a couple of incidents? 8 MR. DANDAR: Yes, exactly. 9 THE WITNESS: Paragraph 10? No. 10 MR. DANDAR: At the top. 11 THE COURT: I read those two things -- well, 12 go on ahead. I'm going to let her answer the 13 question. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q It talks about two people that you knew where 16 orders were given to end cycle. Do you have any factual 17 basis to know that what he said there at the top of page 10 18 was false? 19 A Well, I thought that that had been a little bit 20 interpretational on his part. 21 Q Factual basis, Ms. Brooks. You have no factual 22 basis, do you, to tell this Court under oath that that's 23 false. 24 A I can tell the Court that I believe it is. 25 Q What is the factual basis for that? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1223 1 A My knowledge of Scientology tech. 2 THE COURT: Counsel, when I said you could 3 do this questioning, the purpose of it was to move it 4 along. I thought you could do that. There's no 5 occasion for you to joust or to get angry with this 6 witness. I'm not going to have it -- 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: -- because it's not necessary. 9 If there were a jury here, I would let you all do 10 whatever lawyers do for jurors. I don't need it. 11 MR. DANDAR: I don't think you would, Judge, 12 to be honest with you. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q But it's just your feeling that you don't think 15 that's accurate? Did you tell Mr. Prince that? 16 A M'hum (affirmative). 17 Q You did? 18 A Yes. Sorry, yes, I did. 19 Q Isn't it true, ma'am, that you were so excited 20 about this affidavit that you went and posted it on the 21 Internet? 22 A That I was so excited about this affidavit -- 23 that isn't true. 24 Q Isn't it true that you posted it on the Internet? 25 A I would have to say that that was the habit of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1224 1 Mr. Minton to post things. It was not something that I 2 liked to do. 3 Q Let me see if I can refresh your memory. Do you 4 recall posting this on your computer in my conference room 5 on O'Brien Street on the Internet before we went to court 6 with Judge Moody and I got sanctioned for it? 7 A Yes, I do recall that, actually. 8 Q Thank you. Okay. Now -- 9 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, excuse me, that 10 is -- that's an inaccurate statement of what happened, 11 and I just object. 12 THE COURT: Well, the -- I think that the -- 13 the refreshing her memory was as to whether or not she 14 posted it. 15 Do you now remember -- 16 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: -- that you posted it? 18 THE WITNESS: I do remember that I did. 19 THE COURT: So I don't know what happened in 20 front of Judge Moody, but I don't think that matters. 21 MR. FUGATE: That was the part that I was 22 objecting to. 23 THE COURT: Right. 24 A I believe actually it was you, Mr. Dandar, who 25 was so excited about it that you wanted me to post it KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1225 1 before the hearing so that in case Judge Moody said that it 2 was under seal it would already be out. 3 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. I mean, that's 4 just a voluntarily statement. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. It's not in response 6 to any question. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, it's true that I always told you and anyone 9 else that asked that Dell Liebreich knew what was going on 10 in the case? I kept her fully informed of what's going on 11 in the case? 12 A Are we back to my affidavit? 13 Q Yes, we are. I'm sorry, wait a minute. I'm 14 sorry. Before we go, is there anything else in that 15 affidavit that you recall telling Mr. Prince was not true? 16 A I would have to review the whole thing. 17 MR. WEINBERG: That's what's going to be my 18 objection. 19 THE COURT: And I will sustain that. This 20 is -- that's what I was trying to suggest early on 21 when the question was asked. If she was going to be 22 asked to look at it and tell us exactly what she said 23 was not true, you were going to have to give her some 24 time. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. I would actually KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1226 1 like to have her take it home with the other 2 declarations. 3 THE COURT: Can you take this home with the 4 other declarations to see whether or not you feel 5 there are any other parts of this? 6 I don't think we need to care what she 7 thinks; if she has any knowledge that any of these 8 other things are untrue. 9 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 10 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe the 11 testimony was that she thought things were over the 12 top. We're going from "over the top" to "untrue," and 13 there's a difference. 14 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, in fact, I said 15 that I was concerned that Mr. Prince wouldn't be able 16 to substantiate his allegations under oath or in 17 testimony. 18 THE COURT: Well, let's see. Does that mean 19 then that there's nothing in here that you can testify 20 under oath is false? You just thought that it would 21 be difficult for some of these allegations for him to 22 substantiate. 23 THE WITNESS: And before I could answer that 24 question, I would like to be able to actually review 25 the whole thing. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1227 1 THE COURT: Okay. And that's fair. 2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Just bring them back. 3 That may be my only copy. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Now -- 6 THE COURT: This -- these two folks that are 7 referred to in Mr. Princes's affidavit, these -- I 8 believe there's three of them, actually. They look to 9 me in reading this as if these folks were very ill. 10 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, this is 11 referring back to my testimony earlier where it was a 12 hospice situation. 13 THE COURT: Right. I'm trying to find it. 14 THE WITNESS: It's on page 10. 15 THE COURT: Is this these for the folks that 16 were supposedly told to end the cycle? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Okay. All three of these 19 folks -- 20 THE WITNESS: I only see two. 21 THE COURT: -- had cancer. Well, there's a 22 third one -- 23 THE WITNESS: Oh, Roxanne. 24 THE COURT: -- Roxanne Friend. So it says 25 like -- well, no, let's take the two. Diane Morrison KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1228 1 had cancer, and it says she was instructed to end 2 cycle. And the same with Mr. Cormier. It says 3 Mr. Minkoff sent him orders to end cycle, and he died. 4 I don't know what "end cycle" means necessarily. 5 But it looks to me as if these cases can 6 hardly be compared to what's alleged, Counselor. 7 Maybe this is for you, not this witness. What you 8 have said is that they -- these two people were told 9 something, is what it says. You're suggesting in your 10 complaint that they decided this for another person 11 against her will. So these have nothing to do with 12 that, do they? 13 MR. DANDAR: Well, it's a person -- Lisa 14 McPherson was in what's called an extremis condition, 15 like those other people have in cancer. And instead 16 of going to the doctor, they were told to end cycle. 17 THE WITNESS: That's so inaccurate, though. 18 THE COURT: Yes, I frankly think so too. 19 You need to think about that, because Mr. Princes's 20 affidavit makes it sound -- I thought it was quite 21 different from this. It sounds like someone being 22 allowed to end their life, like Kevorkian with 23 assisted suicide. 24 I mean, it sounds to me like these folks 25 were in bad shape, and they were told that maybe you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1229 1 just want to, you know. I don't know. To me that is 2 different from suggesting in your complaint that the 3 Church was responsible for making a decision for 4 somebody who was incapable of making a decision to 5 die, to let her die. And that's what you said. So 6 I'm not sure these are good examples. 7 MR. DANDAR: Okay. All right. 8 THE COURT: For what it's worth, I'm passing 9 you along some information. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Ms. Brooks, isn't it true that your ex-husband, 12 Vaughn Young, also has the opinion that Lisa McPherson died 13 because it would be bad PR to take her back to the 14 emergency room in the condition she was in towards the last 15 two or three days of her life? 16 A I don't know. 17 Q All right. 18 THE COURT: How can it be bad PR to take 19 somebody back to the emergency room but not bad PR to 20 let them die and then have to take them someplace? It 21 doesn't make any sense. 22 MR. DANDAR: We'll address that somehow I 23 think with Mr. Prince and Mr. Young. 24 THE WITNESS: Are you going to -- 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1230 1 Q Paragraph 27 -- let's go to your affidavit. 2 THE COURT: You have to admit that was bad 3 PR. I mean, they have suffered some bad PR because of 4 Lisa McPherson's death. 5 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 6 THE COURT: Bad PR. 7 MR. DANDAR: That's right. 8 THE COURT: I don't know what the PR would 9 have been if they had taken her in the shape she was 10 in to a hospital, but it sure wouldn't have been as 11 bad as this. You'll concede that, Counselor. Maybe 12 not. 13 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. 14 THE COURT: All right. You think about 15 that. 16 MR. DANDAR: I think there are some 17 variables there. She would be alive today, but what 18 she would be doing, I don't know. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Paragraph 27 in your April 2002 affidavit, now 21 you're accusing John Merrett of suborning perjury from you 22 at your deposition. Is that correct? 23 THE COURT: Where are we now? 24 MR. MOXON: Wait, wait. Where are we? 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1231 1 Q Paragraph 27 of your affidavit, you're accusing 2 Mr. Merrett, your attorney, of sitting there and knowing 3 that you were testifying falsely. What did you testify 4 falsely about that Mr. Merrett knew? 5 A I believe he knew that Mr. Minton was the source 6 of the LMT funds. 7 Q Did you know when you testified that Mr. Minton 8 was the source of the LMT funds? 9 A No. 10 Q What did you think were the source of LMT funds? 11 A Well, I'd gotten a check from Operation Clambake. 12 Q Well, before that, you'd gotten checks from 13 Mr. Minton from the LMT, though, didn't you? 14 A Yes, but I was answering your other question. 15 Q Okay. The Clambake check came in the summer of 16 2001. Am I correct or not? 17 A I don't remember when it came. I think it was 18 earlier than that, though. 19 Q Okay. Well, the source of the funds for the year 20 2000, that was Mr. Minton, correct? 21 A I believe so. 22 Q And you knew that. I mean, you saw him put the 23 check in the LMT bank account. 24 A I did? I don't -- what did you -- 25 Q Did you? Start over. Isn't it true that you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1232 1 knew when the LMT was formed in '99 that Mr. Minton was the 2 sole shareholder of the LMT? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you knew in '99 that Mr. Minton was the sole 5 source of funds for the LMT at that particular point in 6 time? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And the year 2000, you knew that Mr. Minton was 9 the sole source of funds for the LMT, correct? 10 A I only hesitate because I'm not sure about the 11 dates when the other monies came in, but I -- but assuming 12 that those other monies came in in 2001, if -- if it's the 13 case that the other monies came in in 2001, as you're 14 saying, then yes. 15 MR. DANDAR: Judge, could we have the 16 Clambake -- you know, do you have the Clambake 17 check -- checking account that was sent over? Don't 18 have a date on it. 19 THE COURT: Oh, you mean this -- 20 MR. DANDAR: From Norway. 21 THE COURT: I think I threw it in the 22 wastebasket. 23 MR. LIROT: The Hague Convention. 24 THE COURT: Hague Convention. Here it is. 25 MR. DANDAR: I might be wrong, but I think KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1233 1 we have the date, even though everything else is in 2 Norwegian. 3 THE COURT: 4/6/01. 4 MR. DANDAR: So that would be April 6th, 5 '01. 6 THE COURT: The truth of the matter, we 7 don't know what that means. 8 THE WITNESS: What, your Honor? 9 MR. HOWIE: Point of correction, your Honor. 10 In Norway, they state the date, then the month, then 11 the year. 12 THE COURT: 4/1/06? 13 MR. WEINBERG: No. It's probably June 4th. 14 MR. McGOWAN: They do a day, a month, a 15 year. 16 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q I think we can extrapolate the word "debiturt" to 19 mean "debit" of almost $300,000, and that is on June 4th of 20 2001. 21 A Okay. 22 Q All right. 23 A So then what you're saying is correct. 24 Q So Mr. Minton funded the LMT in the year 2000. 25 A Yes, to the best of my belief. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1234 1 Q The Clambake money was the first money coming 2 from a third party as far as you know, correct? 3 A As far as I knew. I believe that's the case. 4 Q And in January of '98 you started -- 5 A But -- 6 Q I'm sorry. 7 A But there was other money that came in that might 8 have come in before that money. 9 Q Same year? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Okay. 2001? 12 A Yes. 13 Q So Mr. Minton funded the LMT in '99 and 2000? 14 A Yes, to the best of my knowledge. 15 Q Okay. All right. 16 THE COURT: What was your point? 17 MR. DANDAR: Well, here's my point. 18 THE COURT: All right. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You have been paid by Mr. Minton as his assistant 21 since January of '98. Is that correct? 22 A Well, I've been supported by Mr. Minton since 23 then. 24 Q Okay. And I'm going to give you this because I 25 need you to clarify something. In your deposition of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1235 1 June 23rd, 2000 -- that's six months after the LMT opened 2 for business on Fort Harrison Avenue -- on page 221, you 3 were asked this question: 4 "You were working for the Lisa McPherson Trust at 5 the time you were doing this, correct?" And I think 6 they're talking about picketing. 7 You said: "No." 8 Question: "You were being paid by Mr. Minton at 9 the time you were doing this?" 10 Your answer was: "No." 11 Were those both truthful answers? 12 A Can I see what you're looking at? 13 Q Sure. 14 A Do you want me to just read it over there? 15 Q Yes. You probably need to read a couple pages. 16 THE WITNESS: Your Honor? 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 THE WITNESS: Can I take a minute? 19 THE COURT: Sure. 20 Did we break this afternoon? I guess we 21 did. 22 MR. MOXON: No, I don't think so. 23 THE COURT: Soon now. 24 MR. DANDAR: It's only -- 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, we could break while I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1236 1 read this, if you want to. 2 MR. WEINBERG: The problem with this is 3 there's no date that would indicate, at least on that 4 page, when -- 5 THE COURT: Well, let's break, and let's let 6 her read and see whether or not she's able to respond 7 to that question. And if she can't, she can't. 8 THE WITNESS: And, your Honor, what was the 9 question again? 10 MR. DANDAR: Is that a truthful statement, 11 what's highlighted there. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 THE COURT: We'll be in recess. 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: For how long, your Honor? 15 THE COURT: Fifteen minutes. 16 MR. LIEBERMAN: Thank you. 17 THE COURT: Maybe we'll work a little late 18 tonight, like an hour. I'd like to see if we can 19 finish. I'm kidding myself. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, if I'm allowed to ask 21 questions, we can go tomorrow too. 22 THE COURT: What do you mean? 23 MR. DANDAR: The only reason we have to take 24 tomorrow off is because of Mr. Lirot's schedule. 25 THE COURT: Suits me. I'd like to get done. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1237 1 You all talk about it among yourselves. I've got 2 nothing to do. My secretary has a pile to sign. 3 She's going to be killed, but I can go tomorrow. You 4 all talk about it. 5 But, yes, you can ask questions. You can 6 ask questions direct. Not of yourself. 7 MR. DANDAR: I can do that too if you let 8 me. 9 THE COURT: No, I won't allow that. 10 (A short break was taken.) 11 THE COURT: You may continue. 12 Let's take tomorrow off. 13 MR. WEINBERG: That would be nice. 14 THE COURT: We're going to take tomorrow 15 off. My secretary tells me I've got the papers 16 stacked and she need some orders signed and I have 17 lawyers calling. That'll work. We'll do three days, 18 then I'll take Monday off, go to Tallahassee. So, you 19 know, three days, break -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 21 THE COURT: -- three days, break. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: -- three days, a break. 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor -- 25 MR. WEINBERG: It's like a broken record. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1238 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: -- just to be clear, does 2 that mean we're definitely taking Monday off? 3 THE COURT: I'm afraid so. I couldn't get 4 out of it. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q I just want to ask you a question before we get 7 back to your deposition. Do you recall being interviewed 8 and your interview being aired by 60 Minutes? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Do you recall in that interview on 60 Minutes 11 that you said you were a prisoner in RPF? 12 A I may have said that. 13 Q Is that a truthful statement when you said it on 14 national T.V.? 15 A I said it to create a certain effect, and I think 16 it did. 17 Q You did -- I'm sorry, what? 18 A I said I said it to create a certain effect, a 19 certain impression, and I believe it did. 20 Q So was it truthful or a lie? 21 A I believed it to be the case. 22 Q Okay. Now, let's talk about that deposition. 23 Did you have a chance to read it? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Okay. Are those truthful statements in your KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1239 1 deposition? 2 MR. McGOWAN: Make a record on this, which 3 page, which line. 4 THE COURT: Yes. 5 MR. DANDAR: We did that, but . . . 6 THE COURT: Well, I've forgotten. 7 MR. DANDAR: I'd have to look at it. What 8 page have I highlighted? Page 221, lines 16 through 9 21 in the deposition of Stacy Brooks taken June 23rd, 10 2000. 11 A No. Oh. Yes, they were. When he asked if I was 12 being paid by Minton, I considered that I had been 13 supported by him, so I said no. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q There's a difference between being supported and 16 being paid? 17 A I considered so at the time. 18 Q All right. So when you said -- in your mind, 19 when you answered that, being supported by Mr. Minton and 20 the money that you received by Mr. Minton, is that reported 21 to the Internal Revenue Service or is that a gift? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, the second part of 23 that calls for a legal conclusion. The first part of 24 it is maybe something she can answer. 25 MR. DANDAR: He's correct. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1240 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. DANDAR: Withdrawn. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q The being supported by Mr. Minton, is that 5 something that you reported as income to the IRS? 6 A When? What year? This thing isn't clear when 7 we're talking about. 8 Q '98 and '99. 9 A So this -- I read several pages before and after, 10 but it -- it never became clear what time period we were 11 talking about here. Now -- 12 Q Isn't it true in your deposition you didn't ask 13 anyone to clarify what time that was being talked about? 14 A Well, it seems to be that everyone knew. But 15 he's talking about a photograph of me -- 16 Q And it's in the front. 17 MR. DANDAR: May I approach and show her? 18 THE COURT: You may. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q It's right here, all these photographs. 22 A But he's talking about different times when we 23 were picketing. And you know, this is not the photo he's 24 referring to here. 25 Q All right. Which one is he referring to? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1241 1 A It's not clear. Well, it wasn't clear to me from 2 the transcript. You may be able to show me. Talking about 3 a light blue T-shirt. 4 Q On page 220, it says you and Robert Minton are 5 picketing. Robert Minton is carrying a sign, "Scientology, 6 Hubbard's Third Reich." 7 A Okay. Let's see if we can find a picture of him 8 doing that. Okay. 9 Q By a building. 10 A T-shirt. That's Bob Minton standing next to me, 11 but that's -- see, he's not standing next to me there. 12 Q Go to where there's a Third Reich poster and 13 there's a building. 14 A Okay. Is that that one? 15 Q Right. 16 A Okay. 17 MR. DANDAR: And for the record, we're 18 looking at Brooks' Exhibit 11 in the June 23, 2000, 19 deposition. 20 A Okay. So then if he says I was working for the 21 Lisa McPherson Trust at the time of this photo, and is this 22 the date of that photo? No, no. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q No. 25 A That's the date of that depo. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1242 1 Q Right. 2 A So what's the date of this photo? 3 Q Do you know? If you don't know -- apparently you 4 did in the deposition, correct, because you didn't ask 5 anyone to identify the date of the photograph while the 6 deposition was being taken. 7 A Well, in any case . . . 8 Q Okay. Well, did you recognize the building in 9 the photograph with you and Bob in front of this building, 10 Exhibit 11 to your deposition? 11 A It's later, I think. I don't really, but I think 12 he said what it was somewhere here. 13 Q Somewhere down here. 14 A Okay. Who was the -- is it the Hacienda Gardens? 15 I don't know. 16 Q On page 221, line 5, you said that staff members 17 live in the building. It's the Church of Scientology 18 building. 19 MR. FUGATE: If you look at 219, it has the 20 building name if that will help. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q All right. Let's look at 219. 23 A Does it say Hacienda Gardens? Okay. I remember 24 that. 25 Q Do you know when that was? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1243 1 A I don't. It was before the LMT. I don't 2 remember. 3 Q All right. 4 A But in any case . . . 5 Q All right. It's before the LMT, right? 6 A It was before the LMT, so, you know, that's why I 7 answered the way I did. 8 Q All right. So when you answered, "No, I haven't 9 been paid by Minton," to you that's a truthful answer even 10 though you were receiving financial support by Mr. Minton? 11 MR. McGOWAN: It's been asked and answered, 12 your Honor. 13 THE COURT: I'll allow it. 14 A But I don't -- this is the problem I'm having 15 with it. Without being able to date that photo, I'm not 16 sure what my financial circumstance was. So I'm not able 17 to answer the question. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Well, if it's before the LMT and after you met 20 Mr. Minton, it definitely -- you had no job anywhere else 21 except for the support that Mr. Minton was giving you? 22 A Well, that's not -- see, in -- in '98, we had 23 other income. So that's why I'm saying it would have to 24 have been -- I mean, I'd have to date it so I could be able 25 to answer you accurately. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1244 1 Q Did you also loan money to the LMT? 2 A I believe I did. 3 Q When did you do that? 4 A It may have been in 2000. It would have probably 5 been in 2001. 6 Q And this was money that you had put in your 7 checking account that Mr. Minton had given to you? 8 A What? I thought you asked me if I loaned money 9 to -- 10 Q Yes, is that where you got the money from that 11 you loaned to the LMT? 12 A Well, it was out of my salary that I was getting. 13 I guess you could say I was paying myself from the LMT. 14 Q And when you answered the question about the 15 anonymous donation to the LMT -- 16 MR. DANDAR: And we've covered this before, 17 so don't object. Just real quick. 18 MR. FUGATE: I'll look to the Court for 19 direction. 20 MR. WEINBERG: I've heard a lot of things, 21 but I've never -- 22 THE COURT: Me either. This is kind of an 23 unusual -- 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q When you answered in your deposition that the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1245 1 $500,000 came from someone in your "anonymously," that's 2 because that's what Mr. Minton told you, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And you believed that he told you the truth, 5 correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And so your answers in your deposition were 8 truthful about that, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q All right. And you since have found out that 11 that money really came from Mr. Minton? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Did he tell you why he lied to you? 14 A I don't believe so. 15 Q Were you furious with Mr. Minton because you 16 testified falsely in your deposition based upon his lie? 17 A No. 18 Q How many times did you have a conference with me 19 and Dr. Garko and Jesse Prince in reference to adding on 20 additional parties to the wrongful death case? 21 A Where that subject came up, do you mean? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Where all four of us were together, perhaps -- 24 perhaps two or three. I'm not really sure. There were 25 times when I was meeting with Mr. Garko -- Dr. Garko about KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1246 1 it, when I met with you and Dr. Garko about it, when I met 2 with Jesse and Dr. Garko, and when I met with you and 3 Jesse. But when all four of us were together, I'm not 4 sure. 5 Q Could it be just one time? 6 A Probably more times than that. But as I said, 7 we -- we were all in the office and sometimes the two -- 8 two people would be upstairs, sometimes three, sometimes 9 whatever. 10 Q Isn't it true that you were the only one, when 11 all four of us met, that was enthusiastic about adding on 12 David Miscavige as a defendant? 13 A I would definitely say I was the one that was 14 most enthusiastic. 15 Q All right. And isn't it true that Dr. Garko and 16 I were the most reluctant? 17 A It's true that Dr. Garko was, but you brought up 18 the idea. It didn't strike me as reluctance. 19 Q Was this after the October '99 hearing? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Was what after? 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q This meeting the four of us had. 23 A Are you talking about the one when Mr. Minton was 24 there? 25 Q Well, I'm talking about the one where you allege KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1247 1 that Mr. Minton was there, yes. 2 THE COURT: This is the one in the 3 affidavit? 4 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Paragraph -- 5 THE COURT: In the affidavit -- this is the 6 one, Ms. Brooks, I believe he's referring to in your 7 affidavit of -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. So we're back to the 9 affidavit. 10 THE COURT: -- April 29th. 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes, paragraph 15. 12 A Okay. Okay. So what was your question? 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q My question is, Isn't it true that the only time 15 that you participated in a discussion to add on David 16 Miscavige was after the October '99 hearing with Judge 17 Moody? 18 A Well, when I participated in discussions about 19 how he could be added after Moody's suggestion to you about 20 how you could do it, it was after that, yes. 21 Q Isn't it true that's the reason the evidence that 22 we had to add on David Miscavige for the October '99 23 hearing was the affidavit of Jesse Prince, the one you're 24 going to look over tonight, and as well as documents from 25 the Church of Scientology? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1248 1 A Isn't it true that -- 2 Q The evidence that we had -- 3 A For the Judge Moody hearing? 4 Q Yes, the first one. 5 A When was that? 6 Q October '99. 7 A Well, his affidavit was August '99 -- 8 Q Right. 9 A -- so that would make sense. 10 Q Okay. And isn't it true that you offered no 11 testimony -- and what I'm saying is just for this case, for 12 the addition of those parties, that motion -- except your 13 prior declarations from other cases? 14 THE COURT: I don't even know what your 15 question is. 16 MR. DANDAR: I know. It's a terrible 17 question. I withdraw that. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q All right. Isn't it true Robert Minton never 20 flew to Tampa, Florida, to have a secret meeting to discuss 21 the addition of David Miscavige as a defendant in the case? 22 A Yes. He didn't fly there for that reason. 23 Q All right. He flew here because he wanted to go 24 down and picket, correct? 25 A Well, I don't remember. I think -- when was this KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1249 1 again? This was in the fall of '99. 2 Q Right. 3 A Yes, I believe -- I believe he probably had 4 several purposes for coming, one of which was to begin the 5 process of finding a place and getting things established 6 for the Lisa McPherson Trust. 7 Q And I let you and Mr. Minton and anyone else that 8 was working for the people forming the Lisa McPherson Trust 9 to use a phone in my office to try to find office space, 10 correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Okay. And Mr. Minton was not part of any secret 13 meeting to discuss the addition of David Miscavige 14 individually, as captain of the Sea Org, as a party 15 defendant in the Lisa McPherson Trust case. Isn't that 16 true? 17 A Mr. Dandar, I remember that he was. That's why 18 I've written it in my affidavit. 19 Q Did you talk to Dr. Garko recently about that? 20 A No. 21 Q Did you meet -- have you had meetings with 22 Dr. Garko since you started negotiating with the Church of 23 Scientology in April of 2002? 24 A Well, that's mischaracterizing what's happened. 25 Q Well, forget about my word "negotiating." As you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1250 1 had discussions with the Church of Scientology, did you 2 meet with Dr. Garko in April of 2002? 3 A On -- yes. 4 Q Okay. And did you discuss with Dr. Garko his 5 recollection of whether or not Robert Minton ever 6 participated in any meeting with my -- with trial 7 consultants and myself to add on David Miscavige 8 individually to the wrongful death case? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And did -- isn't it true that Dr. Garko told you 11 Robert Minton was not part of that meeting? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Isn't it true that you had the same discussion 14 with Jesse Prince, and Jesse Prince told you that Robert 15 Minton was never part of the meeting to add on David 16 Miscavige? 17 A Mr. Dandar, if Jesse told you that, it's not the 18 case. 19 Q So what's the answer -- 20 A In fact, he -- 21 Q -- to my question? 22 A Isn't it true that he said he never was? No, 23 that's not true. In fact, he said he remembered that he 24 was. Now I'm sure that he remembers that he wasn't. 25 Q Now, look at -- look at the bottom of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1251 1 paragraph 15 of your April 2002 affidavit. Five lines up, 2 it says: "Mr. Dandar and I discussed it, and I had already 3 suggested a scenario of how this could be done by falsely 4 claiming Mr. Miscavige had a different role as head of the 5 Sea Org." Now -- 6 MR. WEINBERG: Well, why don't you finish 7 the sentence? 8 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to keep reading it 9 because everybody can read it. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Isn't it true -- wait. Are you saying under oath 12 that you told me it was false that Mr. Miscavige has a 13 different position as captain of the Sea Org or head of the 14 Sea Org? Is that a false statement? 15 A His position as head of RTC is -- it says right 16 here: "Mr. Miscavige -- I suggested a scenario of how this 17 could be done by falsely claiming that Mr. Miscavige had a 18 different role as head of the Sea Org apart from his 19 corporate position in RTC." All I mean to say there is 20 that you were trying to figure out a way to get 21 Mr. Miscavige named as a party by skirting his position as 22 head of the RTC. 23 Q Did you -- 24 A And I was telling you that you could leave his 25 position as RTC out of it and just talk about his KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1252 1 position -- 2 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to him 3 making faces and shaking his head yes at the witness. 4 I want the record to reflect he's doing that. 5 THE COURT: All right. I was looking at the 6 question here. I was looking at the affidavit. 7 MR. DANDAR: I'm just trying to -- I'm 8 sorry, I'm just trying to get her to -- 9 THE COURT: Well -- 10 MR. DANDAR: I won't do that anymore. 11 THE COURT: Don't do that. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Okay. So you suggested adding him on as captain 14 of the Sea Org, correct? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Right. Did you tell me that you were lying to me 17 about that? 18 A No. 19 Q Did you say it in such a way to make me believe 20 that what you were saying was true? 21 A I said it to you in such a way as to tell you 22 that it would be a good legal strategy. 23 Q And didn't Jesse Prince agree that Mr. Miscavige 24 as the captain of the Sea Org would have been in the 25 position to know about Lisa McPherson? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1253 1 A Yes. 2 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. 3 Objection. Know what about Lisa McPherson? 4 THE COURT: I understand the question. 5 THE WITNESS: Can I answer? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 A I believe he stated that in his affidavit. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. Now, as you -- so -- 10 THE COURT: I think you've made your point. 11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 12 THE COURT: Save it for argument. 13 MR. DANDAR: We'll move on. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Let's go to the section you entitle "Secret 16 Agreement." This is the agreement you allege exists 17 between the Estate of Lisa McPherson and whom? 18 A Are you really going to say it doesn't? 19 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 20 THE COURT: Granted. 21 I'm going to tell you it doesn't. I'm going 22 to tell you that there's no court in this world, 23 including this Court or any other court, that is going 24 to suggest that whatever was going on here was an 25 agreement. So there. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1254 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Who was this alleged secret agreement with? 3 A Well, it says right here, "Mr. Minton had an 4 agreement with Mr. Dandar and Dell Liebreich." 5 Q Now, isn't it true -- you've talked to Dell 6 Liebreich, correct? 7 A Several times. 8 Q You've talked to Ann Carlson, her sister? 9 A Yes. 10 Q You've talked to Lee Skelton, the other sister? 11 A Yes. 12 Q You've read their depositions? 13 A I don't believe so. 14 Q Okay. Isn't it true that the only agreement is 15 among the three sisters and their brother, Sam Davis? 16 A No. 17 Q Is there anything in writing about this so-called 18 secret agreement anywhere? 19 THE COURT: No, there isn't. 20 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 21 THE COURT: If there were, I would have seen 22 it. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q All right. Now, isn't it true -- 25 THE COURT: Maybe there is, but if there is, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1255 1 I haven't seen it. 2 MR. DANDAR: No, there isn't. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Isn't it true that it was Mr. Minton who 5 graciously asked Dell Liebreich to serve as a board of 6 director member of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 7 A That's possible. 8 Q Isn't it true that it was Mr. Minton who asked 9 her niece, Kim Krenek, to serve as a member of the board of 10 directors of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 11 A Probably. He was the one who asked everybody to 12 join. 13 Q Okay. Isn't it true that I never insisted that 14 Dell Liebreich serve as a board of director member of the 15 Lisa McPherson Trust? 16 A No. 17 Q Isn't it true that I asked -- 18 MR. FUGATE: No what? 19 THE COURT: No, that isn't true or -- yes, 20 this may be one -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: -- I'm not sure what she's 23 saying. 24 THE WITNESS: I'm supposed to say yes or no. 25 THE COURT: Right. So I guess no, that is KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1256 1 not true. 2 THE WITNESS: It's not true. I can't 3 remember what he said. What I meant to say was he 4 insisted. 5 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 6 THE WITNESS: That's what I meant to say. 7 THE COURT: So no was the correct answer. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. 10 THE COURT: That was a truthful answer. I'm 11 not suggesting that was the correct answer based on 12 what you've said you wanted to convey. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Were you present when Mr. Minton and I were 15 conferring about the incorporation of the Lisa McPherson 16 Trust? 17 A I was present for some conferring. 18 Q Were you present when the name of the corporation 19 was being discussed? 20 A I was present for some discussions about that. 21 Q Were you present when I requested Mr. Minton not 22 to use the name Lisa McPherson? 23 A No. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I would object to that 25 question as being testimonial, and it's just like the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1257 1 Garko thing. 2 THE COURT: Like I indicated to you, 3 Counselor, I'm not going to -- he's going to have his 4 chance to testify, and then we'll see what his 5 testimony is. But it's like any lawyer asking a 6 question; that's not evidence. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, David Cecere, you allege in paragraph 18, 9 did expert work for the wrongful death case after he left 10 the Lisa McPherson Trust. What expert work did he do? 11 A He did quite a bit of work on the PC folders, as 12 I understood it. 13 Q Are you saying in paragraph 18 that it -- that he 14 did expert work on the PC folders only because Mr. Minton 15 insisted on it? 16 A I don't believe I said that. 17 Q Well, you say that Mr. Minton saw to it -- quote: 18 "saw to it that Mr. Dandar hired Mr. Cecere to do expert 19 work." What does that mean? 20 A Well, at the time, you needed to have more work 21 done than was possible, than you had resources to do. And 22 Mr. Minton knew that Mr. Cecere had the knowledge to be 23 able to do the work and suggested that Mr. Cecere could do 24 it. 25 Q Was this done in front of your presence, that you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1258 1 actually heard this happening? 2 A Well, in fact he said it to me. 3 Q All right. So you didn't hear any conversation 4 that Mr. Minton and I had about David Cecere? 5 A I don't think I said that you had one. 6 Q Okay. Now, paragraph 18, you talk about Teresa 7 Summers. Teresa Summers before she resigned from the LMT 8 was a very close friend of yours, correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q Was Teresa Summers -- 11 A I thought -- sorry. I thought she was. 12 Q Was Teresa Summers hired by you at the LMT 13 because she was a witness for the Estate of Lisa McPherson? 14 A No. I don't believe I said that. 15 Q Well, look at the way you word paragraph 18 about 16 Teresa Summers. "Teresa Summers was another former 17 Scientologist that I hired at the LMT after Mr. Dandar put 18 her on his witness list in the wrongful death case." What 19 are you trying to convey in that sentence? 20 A Well, I think I started the paragraph saying 21 basically that Mr. Minton wanted the LMT to be a place 22 which would gather people that were working on the case or 23 that had had some involvement in the case or whatever. And 24 what I meant to say there was that Mr. Minton was glad that 25 Ms. Summers was working there because of her involvement in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1259 1 the case, as well as because of her -- of the work that she 2 could do. 3 Q Did she -- did she actually work at the LMT? 4 A Yes. 5 Q How many months after her deposition was taken by 6 me did she get a job at the LMT? 7 MR. WEINBERG: Could we date her deposition? 8 THE WITNESS: Yes, I would need to know 9 that. 10 THE COURT: Do you know when it was? 11 MR. DANDAR: I believe it was June 2000. 12 THE WITNESS: Was her deposition by you? 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q First deposition that I took. 15 A And when did -- do you know when she came to work 16 at the LMT? 17 Q No. I was hoping you would tell me that. Didn't 18 she start at the LMT seven months later? 19 A If you know. 20 Q I mean, do you know? 21 A I'd have to -- I'm not remembering exactly when 22 she came to work. But it was afterwards, yes. 23 Q If she quit in August of 2001, that means she 24 worked, what, eight to ten months at the LMT? Does that 25 sound right? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1260 1 A I thought she worked there almost a year, but you 2 may be right. 3 Q Okay. It's not your testimony that you hired 4 Teresa Summers because she was a witness in the wrongful 5 death case, is it? 6 A No. 7 Q It's because of her expertise in Scientology, 8 correct? 9 A For the most part, yes. 10 Q Okay. 11 THE COURT: I guess what he's trying to 12 suggest or ask is are the two necessarily related? 13 THE WITNESS: And as I said, or as I meant 14 to say, they weren't to a certain degree, but I 15 primarily hired her because of the work that she could 16 do at the LMT. It was a plus, as it happened, that 17 she was also someone that was related to the wrongful 18 death case. And in fact, she and I had a number of 19 conversations about that. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Do you recall the first time she went to the LMT, 22 she went there seeking help as a former Scientologist? 23 A I believe that the first time she saw Jesse she 24 was. 25 Q And do you recall her going to the LMT and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1261 1 talking to you for the very first time as a member of the 2 public after she's been deposed and telling you that I 3 didn't want her to work at the LMT? 4 A No, I don't remember that. 5 Q Now, Mr. Ward you also name in paragraph 18. He 6 has absolutely nothing to do with the wrongful death case. 7 Correct? 8 A I don't believe I implied that he did. Let me 9 see what I wrote about it. Where's Grady? Yes, I don't -- 10 I didn't say that he did. 11 Q All right. So my question is, If this is part of 12 the recantation affidavit, why are you putting Grady Ward 13 in there? 14 A I believe -- well, I tried to make it clear in 15 this paragraph that I was giving some examples of the 16 people that Mr. Minton brought together under the umbrella 17 of the LMT who were all involved in one way or another in 18 litigation with or against Scientology. 19 Q Well, Scientology was suing Grady Ward, correct? 20 A I'm not sure if they were, but the time I -- I 21 don't -- I don't know if that lawsuit was over by then or 22 not. But -- but -- well, actually, I think it was over and 23 he had already settled. But I may be wrong about that. 24 Q Okay. And the rest of the people -- Gerry 25 Armstrong I deposed as a fact witness. Keith Henson -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1262 1 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 2 Q -- was deposed. 3 MR. FUGATE: Armstrong is a fact witness or 4 an expert witness? 5 MR. DANDAR: He's a fact witness. 6 THE COURT: Are you going to ask her 7 questions or are you just going to recite some things? 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Okay. Gerry Armstrong, Arnie Lerma, Keith 10 Henson. Except for Gerry Armstrong being deposed as a fact 11 witness, Keith Henson and Arnie Lerma had nothing to do 12 with the wrongful death case, correct? 13 THE COURT: What did Mr. Armstrong know 14 about this case? 15 MR. DANDAR: He just knew about Scientology. 16 He's a former Scientologist. 17 THE COURT: I think a fact witness is 18 somebody that knows something about the wrongful death 19 case. 20 MR. DANDAR: No, no. He was a person who 21 was -- I think he was actually the biographer of 22 Mr. Hubbard, but he had prior -- he's a former 23 Scientologist. 24 THE COURT: Well, the only way he could 25 testify would be as an expert. Right? I mean, a fact KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1263 1 witness is somebody -- like these workers, the people 2 at the hospital. All of those people would be fact 3 witnesses. 4 MR. DANDAR: All right. 5 THE COURT: The rest of them would be expert 6 witnesses. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. Well, I guess I 8 should have paid them then. But he was on the witness 9 list. He was deposed. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q But excluding him, Arnie Lerma and Keith Henson 12 were never on the witness list or part of the wrongful 13 death case, correct? 14 A Right. I don't believe I was implying that they 15 were in the wrongful death case in my affidavit. 16 Q So you're putting a lot of information in your 17 affidavit that has nothing to do with recanting prior 18 testimony, correct? 19 A I'm putting into my affidavit whatever 20 information I feel will create a full picture for the Court 21 of this situation that I was involved in. 22 Q So the answer to my question is Arnie Lerma and 23 Keith Henson have nothing to do with the wrongful death 24 case. Isn't that true? 25 A It's what I said, yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1264 1 Q When and where did -- 2 EXAMINATION 3 BY THE COURT: 4 Q I have one question here. I made a little note 5 here. Your last paragraph, last sentence, I'm sorry, in 6 paragraph 18 -- 7 A Yes, your Honor. 8 Q -- says Mr. Minton -- I'm as guilty as those, but 9 it's just one sentence. "Mr. Minton put Mr. Leiphold and 10 Mr. Dandar on the advisory board as the two main 11 anti-Scientology litigators that he was funding." Does 12 that mean he's funding the litigators? 13 A Yes, your Honor. 14 Q So he was funding -- 15 A "Litigator" meaning the judge -- "litigator" 16 meaning the attorney. 17 Q Right. So -- so you're suggesting there at the 18 very least that Mr. Minton was giving his money to 19 Mr. Dandar, aren't you? 20 A Well, I think it's more than a suggestion. 21 Q Okay. 22 MR. DANDAR: Now turn to -- 23 BY THE COURT: 24 Q You do realize there's an issue here as to 25 whether or not this money was being paid to the estate or KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1265 1 whether it was being paid to the lawyer. 2 A Well, I don't think there's any question that the 3 checks were being written to Mr. Dandar. 4 Q But I'm just saying this was your choice of 5 words. The litigators that he was funding, "that he was 6 funding" refers to litigators, meaning the lawyers. 7 A Well, in the same sense that I put 8 Mr. Leiphold -- 9 Q Yes. Mr. Leiphold has testified in this hearing 10 that Mr. Minton loaned him money. And there was a UCC 11 filing, I think. That's somewhere in here. And I presume 12 Mr. Minton is going to collect. There was a check paid out 13 of there. And he loaned him money. 14 So I assume you're saying the same thing about 15 Mr. Dandar here. I don't know. I don't want to put words 16 in your mouth, but as I read that, that's how I read it. 17 "Main anti-Scientology litigators that he was funding," 18 funding litigators. The litigators are Dandar and 19 Leiphold. 20 A Well, it's my understanding as I sit here today 21 that Mr. Minton was writing checks to Mr. Dandar for the 22 purposes of funding the wrongful death case. Perhaps I 23 should have made that more clear in my sentence, but that's 24 what I meant to say. 25 Q Okay. And all I asked you was simply "that he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1266 1 was funding" modifies -- you're the person that's the 2 writer. You know how to write. You write well. So when 3 you say "the main anti-Scientology litigators that he was 4 funding," you're talking about the litigators, meaning 5 Leiphold and Dandar, and I think you already said yes. 6 A I understand -- I understand what you're saying, 7 your Honor, and all I'm saying is that I did not mean to 8 say that I thought that the money that Mr. Dandar was 9 giving to -- that Mr. Minton was giving Mr. Dandar was 10 other than money for the prosecution of the wrongful death 11 case -- 12 Q And I'm not suggesting that it was. I'm just 13 simply asking you that you could have said as -- 14 A Okay. 15 Q -- two main anti-Scientology litigators for the 16 litigation in which he was -- you know how to write. 17 That's what you said. There is some confusion here, 18 obviously. 19 A Yes. 20 Q There seems to be some confusion as to whether 21 the money was being paid to Mr. Dandar for the use -- 22 A For his own use. 23 Q For his own use -- 24 A Or for the case. 25 Q -- or whether it was being paid to Mr. Dandar for KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1267 1 the expenses of the case or whether it was being paid to 2 the estate. 3 A Yes. 4 Q And somehow it was being -- it was the estate's 5 money, but it was going through Mr. Dandar. 6 A Right. 7 Q I'm just suggesting that there's some confusion, 8 obviously -- that's part of why we're here -- and you 9 happen to say that -- "the litigators he was funding." I 10 just wanted to make sure that you understood that that's 11 how I read that. 12 A I understand that that's how you're reading it, 13 and I should have made that more clear. 14 CROSS-EXAMINATION (RESUMED) 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Look at paragraph 21 -- 20. I mean 21, excuse 17 me. 18 A Okay. 19 Q We already talked about 20. Twenty-one. That's 20 totally false, isn't it? 21 THE COURT: We're talking about 22 paragraph 21? 23 MR. FUGATE: The three sentences, your 24 Honor. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Which sentence are you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1268 1 talking about? 2 MR. DANDAR: I'm talking about the entire 3 paragraph, all three sentences. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Each one is totally false. Isn't that true? 6 A No. 7 Q They're all false? 8 A No. 9 Q Do you have me on tape or anything documenting 10 that I thought it was great to have the LMT generate 11 negative publicity about Scientology? 12 A Do I have it on tape? No. 13 Q Do you have it in writing anywhere? 14 A You would never put that in writing. 15 Q Do you have it where witnesses are standing 16 around listening to me say something like that? 17 A Well, you didn't make any secret about it, so 18 there may be other people that heard you. 19 Q When did this take place? When did I say 20 something like that? 21 A Well, which part? The -- 22 Q Let's talk about the -- "it's great to create 23 negative publicity about Scientology and its involvement in 24 the wrongful death case," the first sentence of 25 paragraph 21. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1269 1 THE COURT: Well, that all goes with the 2 existence of Mr. Dandar -- let's just have the whole 3 sentence: "Mr. Dandar said he thought the existence 4 of the LMT would be great because it would create 5 negative publicity about Scientology and its 6 involvement in the wrongful death case." That's the 7 sentence. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q When did that take place? 12 A Well, when we were having discussions as it was 13 being set up and after it was set up. 14 Q Okay. Who was present when we had these 15 discussions that you're talking about? 16 A Probably Mr. Minton heard you say things like 17 that. 18 Q Were you, Mr. Minton, and I together in my office 19 when this supposedly took place? 20 A I think one time when a conversation like this 21 took place was in the conference room. 22 Q Anyone else present? 23 A I don't remember. The people that could have 24 been would have been Dr. Garko -- 25 Q Jesse Prince? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1270 1 A Perhaps Mr. Prince. 2 Q Donna West? 3 A She could have been. 4 Q Any other times? 5 A After we opened? One of the first times that you 6 came over to see us, you were talking about, as I recall -- 7 hoping that the LMT would get press. I don't know if you 8 remember that, but we were talking about specifically the 9 St. Pete Times. And I believe one of the conversations 10 happened after Mr. Minton and I had that meeting with the 11 man who used to be the city manager who did the roundabout. 12 I can't remember his name. 13 Q Roberto? 14 A Yes, Roberto. Remember when Mr. Minton and I had 15 a meeting with him? And Mr. Roberto said to us that he had 16 been able to keep Scientology off the front page of the 17 newspaper for two years, and he wasn't going to let us put 18 them back on the front page. 19 Q Was I present at this meeting -- 20 A No. 21 Q -- with Mr. Roberto? So how would I know what 22 happened there? 23 A Well, I'm just saying that we were telling you 24 about that and you were laughing. And you -- you were 25 saying, "Well, I sure hope you do." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1271 1 Q Who was present when I was laughing and saying 2 that besides you? 3 A It may have just been me. 4 Q The second sentence -- well, before we get to the 5 second sentence, any other times that you're referring to 6 in this first sentence of paragraph 21? 7 A Well, those are the specific instances that I 8 remember. 9 Q Okay. Do you recall you and I were really 10 negative towards Mr. Minton picketing? 11 A Yes. You and I both came to think that it was a 12 bad idea. 13 Q Do you recall a time when Mr. Minton had that 14 10-foot pole and he went picketing with a 10-foot pole with 15 a horn at the end? 16 A You mean the threep. 17 Q The what? 18 A The threep. 19 Q The threep. 20 THE COURT: What is a threep? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, it was this really 22 bogus thing that somebody made that was -- well, you 23 know Judge Penich's injunction? 24 THE COURT: Oh, it's the pole that Judge 25 Penich has? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1272 1 THE WITNESS: The pole with the thing. 2 THE COURT: Okay. I've seen that. I asked 3 him what that was. 4 THE WITNESS: That was a threep. 5 THE COURT: Okay. I'm not sure that's what 6 he told me. Maybe he did and I thought he was out of 7 his mind. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Remember how you and I tried to discourage 10 Mr. Minton from going into the street with that? 11 A Unsuccessfully, unfortunately. 12 Q Unsuccessfully. Mr. Minton really does whatever 13 Mr. Minton wants to do. Isn't that true? 14 A A lot of times. 15 THE COURT: This picket, I don't -- I didn't 16 necessarily mean to imply that Mr. Dandar picketed, 17 although frankly I thought he did picket. I don't see 18 the difference in the vigil. To me if you're carrying 19 signs, you're picketing. Did Mr. Dandar ever carry a 20 sign -- 21 THE WITNESS: I believe he did. 22 THE COURT: -- during these vigils? 23 THE WITNESS: I believe so. 24 THE COURT: So if I saw something where 25 somebody was carrying a sign, I might well think it KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1273 1 was a picket. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. But just to 3 clarify for you, there were a number of times when I 4 accompanied other people picketing, but I didn't hold 5 a sign because I was -- I took my dog with me and 6 whatever, so I couldn't do both things at the same 7 time. But -- 8 THE COURT: Well, I'm kind of old-fashioned. 9 I go to the airport and there's teamsters or somebody 10 is there and they're upset with the airline or there's 11 workers and they're trying to get a new contract and 12 there's a union. And they picket, and when they 13 picket, they carry signs and they walk and it's 14 peaceful. And they walk and they have a sign. And 15 they do it in front of the White House and they do it 16 at airports and they do it in front of wherever 17 they're trying to work. That's what I think of as a 18 picket. When I see folks and they've got signs, it's 19 a picket to me. 20 Now, if it's a vigil, that's okay. But when 21 I see it, I see it as a picket. And whenever I see 22 people with signs, I think they're picketing. So 23 perhaps I improperly suggested you were picketing. 24 The truth of the matter is I don't think 25 lawyers in a case like this ought to be holdings signs KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1274 1 because to me as a judge it looked like a picket, and 2 I'll bet to others it looked like a picket. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Did I ever hold a sign? 5 A I think you did. 6 Q Where? 7 A I think you did at the vigil. 8 Q And isn't it true that vigil started -- 9 THE COURT: I thought you all introduced a 10 picture of Mr. Dandar with a picket sign. 11 MR. FUGATE: We introduced a picture in 12 front of the criminal court -- 13 THE COURT: Not at this hearing. I'm 14 talking about some other hearing, maybe Mr. Minton and 15 Mr. Prince. 16 MR. MOXON: I had a part of a video where 17 Mr. Dandar -- all the picketers were across the street 18 from the Fort Harrison and they were all organizing 19 and they had their signs. And Mr. Dandar looked like 20 he was organizing them and instructing them. I have 21 that on video. 22 THE COURT: It was sometime when you were 23 showing me some footage or some stills or something 24 maybe of Mr. Prince. 25 MR. MOXON: Yes. It was during the Prince KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1275 1 hearings, that's correct. 2 THE COURT: I looked at one of those 3 pictures and was hearing what was being said by 4 Mr. Prince, and there was Mr. Dandar. 5 MR. MOXON: That's -- that's right. I'll -- 6 THE COURT: And that's what I'm referring 7 to. I didn't ever see you picketing or anything of 8 the sort. 9 MR. DANDAR: I didn't picket. 10 THE COURT: All right. Whatever it was, I 11 didn't like it. I wish you hadn't been there. 12 MR. DANDAR: I may have been observing. 13 THE WITNESS: I think I said, your Honor, he 14 participated in pickets. And what I was saying 15 earlier was I participated in pickets several times 16 when I wasn't actually carrying a sign, but I was with 17 the picketers. 18 THE COURT: Is that what you're referring to 19 when you say Mr. Dandar participated in pickets? He 20 didn't have a sign, but he was still picketing? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes, for the most part, 22 although I do think that I remember him carrying a 23 sign on one or two occasions. But in any case, he was 24 participating. 25 THE COURT: Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1276 1 THE WITNESS: I don't define it as -- I'm 2 not -- when I said participated in pickets, I don't 3 mean -- I'm not defining it as you have to be carrying 4 a sign in order to be participating. 5 THE COURT: And I'm sure that's true, 6 because probably in those things that I identify as a 7 picket, they probably don't all have signs. But 8 frankly, what I see are the signs. 9 THE WITNESS: Well, and everybody is 10 together, and -- 11 THE COURT: Everybody is together and I see 12 the signs. So . . . 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Identify one picket where I was walking with the 15 picketers and was either holding or not holding a sign. 16 A As I just said, I thought it was during one of 17 the times surrounding December 5th, the December 5th 18 picket, but -- 19 Q The evening vigil? 20 A No, not the vigil itself because people weren't 21 holding signs during the actual vigil. That was -- people 22 would hold candles. 23 Q Right. 24 THE COURT: That's what I think of as a 25 vigil, candles. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1277 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q We had candles. 3 A We had candles. Everybody was carrying a candle. 4 Q Right. 5 A People aren't carrying pickets. 6 Q All right. 7 A But I believe -- and I may be mistaken -- but I 8 believe I remember you carrying a picket sign during one of 9 the pickets surrounding the vigil. I may be wrong, but -- 10 because I wasn't sure about that, I said "participated in 11 pickets." 12 Q Last sentence, "Mr. Dandar encouraged our 13 participation in The Prophet." Now, when did I do that? 14 A Well, for example, when you acted in the movie. 15 Q When did I encourage others to participate in the 16 movie? 17 A You told Mr. Minton that you thought it was 18 great. 19 Q Was Mr. Minton already assigned a part in the 20 movie? 21 THE COURT: Isn't this something here -- 22 here's another -- Counselor, just for your future 23 information, it's not a good idea when you're involved 24 in these kinds of lawsuits to be playing bit parts in 25 movies either. Honestly it isn't. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1278 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it has nothing to do 2 with this case. 3 THE COURT: Well, okay. But -- 4 MR. FUGATE: We'll -- 5 THE COURT: -- it sure has come into this 6 courtroom. It has become an issue. And, you know, it 7 may have something to do with it being 8 anti-Scientology, and if it does and you are 9 representing the estate in this case, you should not 10 have been in that movie. Now, look, don't be filing a 11 motion tomorrow to have me recused from the case. It 12 isn't that big of a deal. 13 MR. DANDAR: All right. 14 THE COURT: It's just that it's not in my 15 mind a good idea, and I hope in the future you will 16 see that this kind of thing gets lawyers in trouble. 17 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 18 THE COURT: Ill-advised. 19 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 20 THE COURT: How's that? 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, Mr. Prince worked full-time for me June '98 24 to May of -- or, wait a minute. June -- hold on. 25 A March or April of 2000. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1279 1 Q June of '99 to May of 2000. 2 A Okay. 3 Q And while he was working full-time for me during 4 those dates, he did not work full-time at the LMT, was not 5 even an employee at the LMT. Correct? 6 A Okay. I'm sorry, my mind wandered. 7 THE COURT: Who are we talking about? 8 MR. DANDAR: Mr. Prince. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Mr. Prince did not become an employee of the LMT 12 until June of 2000, correct? 13 A Well, whenever he stopped being paid by you, he 14 started being paid by the LMT. 15 Q And he was a full-time employee of the LMT when 16 he started to be paid by the LMT, correct? 17 A No. 18 Q Pardon me? 19 A No. 20 Q Well, what was he doing? 21 A He was working for you a lot too. 22 Q What was he doing for me when he started to be 23 paid by the LMT and not me? 24 A Well, you would call him and you would need him 25 to help you on a motion or you would need him to gather KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1280 1 documents. And I'd be thinking he was doing one thing, and 2 I'd go in and it turned out that you'd called and he was 3 doing work for you. 4 Q All right. So you didn't appreciate him getting 5 documents for me while he was a full-time employee at the 6 LMT. 7 A No, I'm not saying I didn't appreciate it. I 8 just -- I think I actually asked you a couple times to 9 coordinate with me and that it would be fine if he did the 10 work if you would just let me know. But you were going 11 directly to Mr. Prince. 12 THE COURT: We're going to stop in about 15 13 minutes. 14 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'm trying -- 15 THE COURT: The witness is tired. I know 16 I'm tired and that you're probably tired. 17 MR. DANDAR: I just would love to finish 18 with this affidavit. I don't know if I can, but I'll 19 try. 20 THE WITNESS: I wish we could. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Okay. So there came a time -- in this affidavit, 23 you're accusing me of telling and you Bob Minton to lie, 24 correct, in your depositions? 25 A Yes. I don't remember exactly where, but -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1281 1 Q Okay. 2 A But I do believe that that's the case. 3 Q What deposition of yours did I encourage you to 4 lie? 5 A I don't know if you remember this, but over the 6 issue of the agreement -- which I understand how your Honor 7 feels about it. 8 THE COURT: All I'm saying is -- this is 9 obviously a matter -- a person should never make this 10 comment. I think that this is hysterical in a way, 11 this agreement. An agreement in law -- which is what 12 I deal with every day, law -- has got to have terms. 13 It's got to have -- you can't have things like "a vast 14 amount." What are some of the other things? We -- 15 "bulk." 16 You know, I'm used to dealing with 17 agreements. First of all, normally they're in 18 writing. For a bundle of money like $2 million, 19 they're written on a piece of paper. They have 20 defined terms, they say when, they say what. 21 If they get -- "if they get enough money." 22 What is that? I mean, to me, 2 million bucks is 23 enough. That would be nothing. I figured this out 24 the other night. There would have to be a recovery of 25 almost $4 million before he could get paid, the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1282 1 $2 million could be paid, and there would be anything 2 left. Well, to most of us ordinary folk, that's a 3 hell of a lot of money. But that wouldn't count. 4 So, I mean, when I see this as -- when 5 you're talking about an agreement, I'm looking to 6 something that's got terms, that I can look at and I 7 can define. Nobody can enforce this. I mean, if 8 Mr. Minton came into court, for example, in front of 9 me and said "Enforce my agreement," I would say: 10 "Okay. Let me see it." 11 "Well, I don't have it." 12 "Well, tell me what it was." 13 "Well, it was if they got enough money, I 14 was going to get the bulk of it." 15 "What's the bulk?" 16 "Well, I don't know." 17 Was it eighty- -- I mean, in his deposition, 18 "Is it 85 percent?" 19 "I don't know. It's more than 50, I would 20 think." 21 Well, I can't enforce that. So that's why I 22 say legally it's a tough sell for me to think there 23 was an agreement. That's what I'm saying. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, and I understand what 25 you're saying. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1283 1 THE COURT: I mean, you all can talk about 2 it. Maybe you all have different ideas and thoughts. 3 But for a court of law, to suggest that whatever this 4 is is an agreement, this is a tough sell, that's all. 5 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, I'm not really 6 trying to sell you on the idea that it was a legal 7 agreement. 8 THE COURT: They are. They're going to have 9 the same tough sell. 10 MR. LIEBERMAN: No, we're not trying to 11 convince you, your Honor, that it was an enforceable 12 agreement. What we're trying to convince you is there 13 was an understanding which was covered -- 14 THE COURT: Maybe an "understanding" is a 15 better word for it. But when I think "agreement," 16 then I think it has some legal, binding effect. And 17 that's what I'm used to, an agreement. 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 MR. LIEBERMAN: Our point is there was -- 20 THE COURT: Like a sentence has a subject 21 and a verb. I generally think of that. There are 22 lots of people that think they have spoken a sentence 23 that don't have a subject and a verb. If you were to 24 ask me what is a sentence, I would say it has a 25 subject and verb, has a period at the end, starts with KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1284 1 a capital letter, maybe more and more. 2 If you say there was an agreement, I'm going 3 to give you a legal definition of an agreement, which 4 is not what we have in this case. We can argue this 5 at the conclusion. I was just simply trying to -- 6 when this witness says to this lawyer, instead of 7 answering the question, "You're not going to try to 8 tell me there wasn't an agreement," I thought I would 9 suggest to her that I didn't think there was an 10 agreement, not legally. 11 THE WITNESS: Okay. Well, if I could just 12 respond to what you said, I think Mr. Minton will 13 testify about how he has come to understand that he 14 should have had lots of things in writing that he 15 didn't and why. 16 But in any case, it was my understanding -- 17 and I'm not a lawyer and I'm not a judge -- but it was 18 my understanding that there was an agreement, and I 19 believe Mr. Minton will testify that it was his 20 understanding. And Mr. Dandar did ask us to say that 21 there wasn't. So . . . 22 THE COURT: And that's the crux of this. 23 Right? 24 MR. LIEBERMAN: Precisely, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: All right. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1285 1 MR. LIEBERMAN: Precisely. And, I might 2 add, this ties into the allegations in the complaint. 3 As your Honor said, the judgment would have had to be 4 pretty high. 5 THE COURT: It sure would have. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: And that's precisely why 7 some of these things were added into the complaint and 8 why we're faced with some of these things. 9 THE COURT: My suggestion to this witness 10 that there was not an agreement is simply my 11 suggestion that when I think "agreement," I think of a 12 contract that was enforceable. This was not it. That 13 does not mean that somebody -- to suggest that if 14 somebody tried, whatever it is, to lie about it is not 15 of grave concern to me if that's true. 16 But since you and Mr. Minton are -- if you 17 ever want an agreement that you want a court to 18 enforce, get it in writing. Have it have specific 19 terms. Go to a lawyer and write it out, "On this 20 date, such and such is payable in the event you 21 recover more than $10 million in this lawsuit," you 22 know, because otherwise a judge doesn't have a clue 23 what to do if you can't agree. I mean, these parties 24 would not have been able to agree. So he would have 25 brought that to a court of law, maybe. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1286 1 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor -- 2 THE COURT: And a court of law would have 3 laughed you out of court, I mean, and just said, "Are 4 you kidding?" 5 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I don't 6 believe Mr. Minton ever expected that there would be a 7 falling out between the parties. I believe -- well, 8 and I'm putting thoughts into Mr. Minton's head, which 9 he should be asked himself. But I believe that 10 Mr. Minton would tell you that he -- 11 THE COURT: Is the newspaper here? 12 MR. DANDAR: No. 13 THE COURT: All right. I guarantee you if 14 there had been a 200 -- a $200 million recovery and 15 Mr. Minton thought that the agreement was that the 16 bulk of the proceeds would have -- I mean, I don't 17 know what that would have been. But I know what I 18 would have thought of as the bulk, and I don't know if 19 these folks were prepared to hand over hundreds of 20 millions of dollars. So you've got to have a meeting 21 of the minds. 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 23 THE COURT: So what I'm suggesting is 24 don't -- in the future, for your life, as you go 25 through your life as a human being and you want an KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1287 1 agreement with somebody, it's a good idea to put it in 2 writing. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: And then, you know, you don't 5 lose friendships over it, you don't go to court over 6 it, you do not even have to pay lawyers. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: Well, that's not always true, 9 but it helps if you have things in writing. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I believe 11 Mr. Minton believed that there was more good faith 12 than he should have. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q What were the subject matters, Ms. Brooks, that I 15 told you to lie in a deposition about? 16 A You said to -- you said not to say that there was 17 any kind of an agreement. 18 Q What else? 19 A Well, I believe that's what I've put in my 20 affidavit. 21 Q Okay. So when was the first time you lied in a 22 deposition that there was no agreement? What -- sorry. 23 A I would have to look at my depositions. 24 Q Well, didn't you do that during your many 25 meetings with Mr. Rinder and Ms. Yingling and with your KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1288 1 attorney? 2 A I have reviewed these things, but I'm not 3 remembering in my head. But I -- it did happen. 4 Q Now, in August of 2001 -- well, wait a minute. 5 Before I get to August of 2001, were there any other 6 subject matters that you're claiming that I told you to lie 7 about under oath in a deposition? 8 A I don't believe so. There was -- no. 9 Q When Mr. Merrett prepared your affidavit and 10 Mr. Minton's affidavit in 2000 stating that there was no 11 agreement, did you tell Mr. Merrett that that was a lie? 12 MR. McGOWAN: Objection. That's not -- 13 that's not what the evidence was. 14 THE COURT: Well, my recollection is she 15 doesn't know who prepared it. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Right. So the predicate of 17 when Mr. Merrett prepared this is inappropriate. 18 THE COURT: All right. Whoever prepared the 19 affidavit. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Well, the affidavit that you and Mr. Minton 22 signed, each individual affidavit which stated that there 23 was no agreement, did you tell your attorney at that time, 24 Mr. Merrett, that this was a lie? 25 A As I think I testified earlier, my recollection KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1289 1 is that we were discussing it with you. 2 Q Are you aware that Mr. Merrett hand-delivered 3 your affidavit and Bob Minton's affidavit to my office? 4 THE COURT: Are you talking about the -- the 5 unsigned affidavit or the signed affidavit? 6 MR. DANDAR: No, the signed affidavit. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q The signed and notarized affidavit, 9 hand-delivered it to Donald West at my office stating under 10 oath that there was no agreement ever between the estate 11 and Mr. Minton or the LMT. 12 A Well, as I think I said earlier, I believe I was 13 in New Hampshire at the time. So that would have had to 14 have been happened in Florida, and I'm -- 15 THE COURT: So the answer is no, you're not 16 aware of that. 17 THE WITNESS: Right. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Did you have any discussions with Mr. Merrett 20 that your affidavit about being no agreement was a lie? 21 THE COURT: That can be answered "yes" or 22 "no." 23 THE WITNESS: Can I say "probably"? 24 THE COURT: Yes. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1290 1 Q Did you tell Mr. Merrett your affidavit was a 2 lie? 3 A Probably. 4 Q Did Mr. Merrett -- 5 A I don't recall a specific conversation with him. 6 Q Did Mr. -- do you know if Mr. Minton told 7 Mr. Merrett that that affidavit was a lie? 8 A I don't know. 9 Q Now, 27, did I have any involvement whatsoever 10 with this plan -- 11 THE COURT: Are we talking about No. 27 -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 13 THE COURT: -- of the affidavit? 14 MR. DANDAR: Of the affidavit. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Did I have any involvement at all with this plan 17 described in paragraph 27 of putting hard drives in the 18 hallway of the LMT that Mr. Merrett was going to take care 19 of? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Are we talking about 21 videotapes? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Videotapes? 23 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry, videotapes. 24 A That was the conversation that happened not in 25 your presence. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1291 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. 3 A That's why I didn't mention you in this. 4 Q Okay. So I don't have anything to do with 5 paragraph 27? 6 A The -- your only involvement in the unedited 7 video footage was that you stated your hope that 8 Scientology wouldn't get ahold of the unedited videotapes. 9 Q Why? What was on the unedited videotapes of 10 people talking about the case of Scientology that I told 11 you I cared about? 12 MR. FUGATE: Object, argumentative. I 13 object to him being argumentative to the witness. 14 THE COURT: Just ask her why would you care. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Why would I care? What did I say? 17 A I think I testified earlier about this. There 18 was some footage of you in candid moments talking about 19 Scientology, that you weren't -- you weren't happy that 20 Scientology would get. 21 Q Well, was there an order for the LMT to produce a 22 videotape of me talking about Scientology? 23 A Well, there was an order for us to produce all of 24 the unedited videotape. 25 Q Of who? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1292 1 A Of anybody talking about Scientology. 2 Q Are you sure about that? Is that your 3 understanding? 4 A That's my recollection. 5 Q Including counsel? 6 A That was my understanding. 7 Q And did I tell you to -- 8 THE COURT: She already said you didn't have 9 anything to do with it. 10 MR. DANDAR: Fine. 11 THE COURT: If I were you, I would just take 12 that and move. 13 MR. DANDAR: I'm moving. Here we go. 14 THE COURT: Maybe this is a good time to 15 stop? 16 MR. DANDAR: No, no. 17 THE COURT: All right. 18 THE WITNESS: We're almost done, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: All right. 20 THE WITNESS: Are we almost done, 21 Mr. Dandar? 22 MR. DANDAR: I hope so. 23 THE COURT: We're on paragraph 28. 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm just going to ask you some 25 questions. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1293 1 THE WITNESS: So are we done with this? 2 MR. DANDAR: Just put that aside. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q In August of 2001, you tried to go see Dell 5 Liebreich, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And you called Dell Liebreich to schedule to go 8 see her without me knowing about it, correct? 9 A I'm sorry, what did you say? 10 Q You called Dell Liebreich and told her you wanted 11 to see her and for her not to tell me about it, correct? 12 A Not exactly. 13 THE COURT: It isn't going to go fast. So 14 we're done for the day. Thank you all. We'll see you 15 all on -- 16 MR. DANDAR: Thursday. 17 THE COURT: -- Thursday at 9 o'clock. 18 MR. FUGATE: Judge? 19 THE COURT: Mr. Fugate. 20 MR. FUGATE: I have one brief thing. I have 21 the language that is highlighted that was omitted from 22 the face page -- 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: -- of the memorandum and fact 25 of law. And you asked me to bring that to your KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1294 1 attention and you were going to initial it. 2 THE COURT: What I was afraid of, I've got 3 to have the original to do that. 4 MR. FUGATE: All right. 5 THE COURT: Maybe you could do this -- I 6 don't know how in the world they would ever find it. 7 MR. FUGATE: I just brought it today, and I 8 remembered it. I'll talk to the clerk. 9 THE COURT: Talk to the clerk about how to 10 do that. On the other hand, like you say, you've 11 already filed. 12 MR. FUGATE: We filed. Okay. Thank you. 13 MR. LIROT: And also, Judge, this is a 14 courtesy -- 15 THE COURT: You can step down, ma'am. Thank 16 you. 17 MR. LIROT: -- courtesy copy of Exhibit 15, 18 composite -- 19 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry. I'm sorry, I 20 have -- let me turn around. 21 MR. LIROT: I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: Are we on the record still? 23 MR. LIROT: (Nodded affirmatively.) 24 THE COURT: Okay. What is it? 25 MR. LIROT: This is just Exhibit 15, your KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1295 1 courtesy copy of the documents Mr. Fugate gave to me 2 yesterday. 3 THE COURT: Okay. 4 MR. LIROT: We've already given the clerk 5 our copy, and we highlighted the exact same portions 6 that were in the copy that was given to us. 7 THE COURT: These are Plaintiff's 8 Exhibit 15? 9 MR. LIROT: Correct. 10 THE COURT: Okay. I don't know if I have 11 them copied. 12 MR. LIROT: No. I copied that to make sure 13 the clerk got it. 14 THE COURT: So this is mine? 15 MR. LIROT: That's your copy. 16 THE COURT: And this is Exhibit 15 put in 17 the record by the plaintiffs in this hearing? 18 MR. LIROT: That's correct. We put it in 19 yesterday and then made copies. 20 THE COURT: Oh. 21 MR. LIROT: These were the documents that 22 were presented to us and we were told that's what was 23 given to this Court. 24 THE COURT: Now I know what they are. 25 MR. LIROT: Thank you, Judge. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1296 1 THE COURT: All right. Now, come here. 2 (Off-the-record bench conference held. The 3 proceedings concluded at 5:35 p.m.) 4 ____________________________________ 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 9, Page 1297 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 15th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, Plaintiff, vs. VOLUME 10 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., Defendants. _______________________________________/ PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief DATE: May 16, 2002. Morning Session PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building St. Petersburg, Florida BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer Circuit Judge REPORTED BY: Debra S. Turner Deputy Official Court Reporter Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida _________________________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS TAMPA AIRPORT MARRIOTT HOTEL (813) 224-9500 ST. PETERSBURG - CLEARWATER (727) 821-3320 Volume 10, Page 1299 APPEARANCES: MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 Attorney for Plaintiff MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG, ESQUIRE 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, NY 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1300 APPEARANCES: (Continued) MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 Attorney for Stacy Brooks ALSO PRESENT: Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller Mr. Ben Shaw Mr. Brian Asay Ms. Patricia Greenway KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1301 1 (The proceedings began at 9:05 a.m.) 2 THE COURT: Good morning. 3 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: Good morning. 4 THE COURT: Did we all enjoy our day off? 5 MR. LIROT: Yes, we did. 6 THE COURT: Okay. Good. I just had Sue 7 pull up my calendar for the week after next. I don't 8 know. It seems as if we're rolling along rather 9 slowly, so I don't know if we'll finish or not. 10 I have no idea what your schedule looks 11 like. I'll let you take a look. But Monday is 12 Memorial Day. Tuesday, you are scheduled to be with 13 me for the pretrial all day. So we can continue this 14 if we're not done. No sense of a pretrial at this 15 stage. And I'm booked Wednesday, Thursday, and 16 Friday. But I could get a senior judge, probably. 17 So -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: Is Friday the 31st? 19 THE COURT: You know, I don't know. 20 MR. WEINBERG: That's the day that I'm 21 leaving with my family to go to Massachusetts for my 22 son's graduation. 23 THE COURT: Okay. 24 MR. WEINBERG: And I get back on -- late on 25 the 3rd. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1302 1 THE COURT: Which is a? 2 MR. WEINBERG: Which is a -- 3 MR. LIEBERMAN: Monday. 4 THE COURT: Okay. Well, take a look at your 5 calendars to see. You know, as I said, I'd kind of 6 like to get through this so we know what we're doing. 7 And I think that I can get authorization for senior 8 judge time. So Friday will be fine. So I have 9 pretrials, and I kind of like to do those myself. So 10 that will work good. Check then, if you all will, on 11 Wednesday and Thursday. 12 MR. FUGATE: 29 and 30, right, Judge? 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I don't have a 14 calendar. 15 MR. FUGATE: It is, that's correct. 16 THE COURT: Okay? So look. If we can do 17 it, I'm going to ask for senior judge coverage so I 18 can get into the mix while there's still some 19 available. 20 MR. DANDAR: Judge, what about this Monday? 21 THE COURT: What is it? 22 MR. DANDAR: Are you still going to 23 Tallahassee this Monday? 24 THE COURT: Yes. I'm afraid I couldn't get 25 out of it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1303 1 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, Plaintiff objects 2 to cancelling all these discovery depositions of 3 experts while this hearing is going on. We have three 4 attorneys. One of them can be here. They have 5 dozens. They can certainly conduct discovery 6 depositions in preparation for trial. And we just 7 object to this continuation of all these discovery 8 depositions of experts that are being cancelled. 9 THE COURT: Tell me -- give me an idea, like 10 what experts? I've seen -- I read so many, I don't 11 know what's left to be done. 12 MR. DANDAR: Well, when this started, we had 13 two set in San Francisco, the defendants' nephrologist 14 and a -- 15 THE COURT: The defendants' nephrologist? 16 MR. DANDAR: -- and a kidney pathologist. 17 THE COURT: Both defendants' experts? 18 MR. DANDAR: Yes, yes. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: And we cancelled the 21 plaintiff's vocational rehab expert for today. 22 Cancelled on Monday was Dr. Buchan in Tampa because of 23 the hearing three days ago. Cancelled on Tuesday was 24 another expert of the defense. 25 THE COURT: Could you all -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1304 1 MR. FUGATE: That was Dr. Knight, who was 2 actually set for Monday. That was the doctor that 3 broke his leg, which we announced in Court. 4 THE COURT: Right. 5 MR. FUGATE: And the one that's set for 6 Monday is Dr. Wild, who we were bringing here to 7 testify because he's leaving the country. And I think 8 when we understood you were going on Monday, that was 9 cancelled and he's going, I think, to Argentina. 10 So other than that, we can -- we can do 11 whatever, I mean, whatever the Court directs us to do. 12 But the two that I'm aware of, Dr. Knight obviously 13 couldn't come over, couldn't fly. He could be here I 14 think the second week of June. We can reschedule him. 15 And then Dr. Wild, we would have to get a time when he 16 comes back, because we were actually bringing him 17 here, as opposed to California, because we cancelled 18 California. 19 MR. LIROT: I thought it was in New York. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Well, here's the problem. 21 Those depositions, the expert depositions, the medical 22 expert depositions, as Ken knows, I have done all of 23 them. And I'm here, and this -- and we don't have -- 24 THE COURT: Are you planning on 25 participating in this hearing? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1305 1 MR. WEINBERG: Yes -- 2 THE COURT: Obviously, you're 3 participating -- 4 MR. WEINBERG: -- I am. 5 THE COURT: -- by your presence, but are you 6 going to be questioning? 7 MR. WEINBERG: I thought I would be 8 participating earlier, but we seem to be going at a 9 slower pace. Yes, I am. 10 THE COURT: Okay. You know, I think we -- I 11 think that's fair. He's counsel that's going to be 12 doing these expert witnesses at trial. I think he has 13 a right to attend the deposition. He says he's here 14 and he's going to participate here. So I think they 15 need to be cancelled. I mean, I'm not happy about it, 16 needless to say, but, you know, he's -- 17 I presume you're kind of chief trial 18 counsel, are you not? 19 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, I am. 20 THE COURT: And he's done all the experts as 21 far as I know in all the matters before me. And I 22 would think he would have a right to be there and make 23 sure that -- especially since expert depositions could 24 be introduced at trial in the event the expert is not 25 available. I would think he might want to ask KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1306 1 questions and he knows -- 2 MR. WEINBERG: I've got to prepare them. I 3 mean, we've done these for years. Mr. Dandar has had 4 time to prepare his experts. I have a right to 5 prepare our experts. 6 THE COURT: I agree. 7 So, Counselor, I think that if it's an 8 expert and it's somebody that he plans to put on the 9 stand in the trial, if there is a trial, then he 10 should be permitted to attend the depositions. So I 11 will allow those to be cancelled. 12 If you have some other type witnesses who 13 are, you know, fairly short witnesses that maybe you 14 aren't even going to put on at trial, they're local, 15 they're going to be here, then I say those should go 16 on. 17 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. 18 MR. DANDAR: There's a second matter that I 19 would like to bring up maybe during a break, but I 20 would like to start Ms. Brooks -- 21 THE REPORTER: I'm sorry, you would like Ms. 22 Brooks? 23 MR. DANDAR: I would like to start finishing 24 up on cross-examination. 25 THE COURT: Okay. You have some matter you KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1307 1 want to bring up at a later time? 2 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 3 THE COURT: All right. That's fine. 4 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure we've got time for 5 that. 6 THE COURT: What's that? 7 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sure we have time for 8 that. 9 THE COURT: Yes, indeed. 10 I can't see Mr. Moxon. 11 MR. MOXON: And I can't see you either, your 12 Honor. 13 THE COURT: That's all right. I don't need 14 to see you. 15 MR. MOXON: Well, I'd like to see you, 16 Judge. 17 THE COURT: Oh, that's nice. 18 MR. MOXON: I don't know how this works. 19 THE COURT: Maybe when he brings in my other 20 chair, it will be better, because I'm sitting way down 21 here in the hole. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Did you find out who took it? 23 THE COURT: Pardon me? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Did you find out who took it? 25 THE COURT: No, I did not. I suspect maybe KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1308 1 Judge Lenderman, who had to be moved to my courtroom, 2 because that's my courtroom, the big one. This is 3 his. And so he was going to do his trial over there, 4 so I suspect he had his chair and he moved it. And 5 although I -- all right. 6 Continue, Counselor. 7 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 8 CROSS-EXAMINATION OF STACY BROOKS (RESUMED) 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Ms. Brooks, what is your date of birth? 11 A April 8th, 1952. 12 Q And what is Mr. Minton's? 13 A October 3rd, 1946, I believe. 14 Q Now, you've had a chance to review the 15 declarations that we marked as Exhibits 17, I believe, 16 through 29 over the day off we had yesterday? 17 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I'd like to say 18 something about those. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: As long as he's -- 21 THE COURT: Well, you can at the appropriate 22 time, but, I mean, he asked you first of all -- you 23 need to answer that question -- did you have a chance 24 to review it? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1309 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. And did you find that those declarations 3 were declarations by you made under oath with the penalty 4 of perjury? 5 A I found that I'm not comfortable authenticating 6 these as my declarations, and I would prefer to have signed 7 copies. There were too many errors in these. There were 8 whole sentences that seemed to have been left out, and I 9 would prefer to work with actual copies that I can 10 authenticate of these declarations, please. 11 Q And you haven't done that, correct? 12 A Excuse me? 13 Q You haven't done that over the day off? You 14 haven't looked at your own signed declarations that 15 these -- 16 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Wait a minute until he asks his 18 question. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You haven't reviewed your own signed declarations 21 of which these exhibits were copies of? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. She 23 just said they're not copies of them. She was given 24 postings off Internet sites to review. She reviewed 25 those, and she can't authenticate them. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1310 1 THE COURT: His question was has she 2 reviewed copies of her signed declarations. If she 3 has them, she can answer that question. If she 4 doesn't have them, then the answer is no, she doesn't 5 have them or she does have them and hasn't reviewed 6 them. So your objection is overruled. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, he injected into 8 that question a statement that the documents she 9 reviewed are indeed copies of declarations, and she 10 just said they weren't. 11 THE COURT: I did not take it that way. I 12 thought he was talking about copies of signed 13 declarations. These are not signed, so these could be 14 different documents. So your objection is still 15 overruled. 16 MR. McGOWAN: Then there's an improper 17 foundation because -- 18 THE COURT: Counselor, overruled. Sit down. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Do you have the original of these declarations? 21 A No. 22 Q Do you have signed copies of these declarations? 23 A No. 24 Q Do you have -- do you know where they are? 25 A I don't. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1311 1 Q They're not in Atlanta? 2 A No, Mr. Dandar. Some of these are nine years 3 old. I haven't seen these in many, many years. 4 Q Do you have any way to access the copies of the 5 original declarations that you have signed over the years? 6 A In order to do so, I would have to get the -- 7 contact the courts where these were filed and ask for 8 copies from the Court. 9 THE COURT: What we'll do, Counselor, is 10 this. If you want to get those, you get them. She'll 11 have to come back. 12 MR. DANDAR: I'll do that. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q But how did they get put up on the Lisa McPherson 15 International Web site that you control? 16 A First of all, I think I clarified that earlier. 17 I don't have anything to do with the -- putting the 18 information up. I'm not really sure what the process is. 19 I believe some of these were taken from other Web sites on 20 the Internet. I'm not sure how they were put up there. 21 Q Who controls the Lisa McPherson Trust 22 International Web site? 23 A Well, there are various people who have various 24 functions with regard to it. 25 Q Who are they? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1312 1 A Mark Bunker has put material up in the past, 2 Ingrid Wagner has put material up, Dee Phillips has put 3 material up. I wasn't even aware that many of these 4 declarations were up and still at this moment can't say 5 that they are, as I haven't seen them up on the Web site. 6 Q And those folks who put these up on the Web site, 7 at the time they put them up on the Web site, they were 8 employees of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 9 A If they put them up prior to the dissolution of 10 the corporation, they were. 11 Q All right. And after the dissolution of the Lisa 12 McPherson Trust, Incorporated, which occurred I believe you 13 said in December of 2001, what entity now is in control of 14 the Web site, Lisa McPherson Trust International? What 15 person or entity? 16 THE COURT: You mean there is still a Lisa 17 McPherson Trust International? 18 MR. DANDAR: (Nodded affirmatively.) 19 THE COURT: Oh, okay. I thought -- 20 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. That's the 21 name of the Web site -- 22 THE COURT: Oh. 23 THE WITNESS: -- but there is no entity. 24 A I can tell you that I'm still paying a couple of 25 those people, but I am not reviewing what's being put up on KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1313 1 the Web site. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q In order to put something up on the Web site, the 4 person who is doing that has to have codes that are secret 5 to access the Web site, correct? 6 A I don't know, actually. 7 Q All right. Who are the people that still have, 8 as far as you know, that you're still paying, to maintain 9 the Web site? 10 A Mark Bunker. 11 Q Who else? Is that the only person? 12 A Yes. 13 Q All right. And you write him a check on your 14 personal account? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Now, after the dissolution of Lisa McPherson 17 Trust, Incorporated, the Florida corporation, in December 18 of 2001, Jesse Prince was still paid $5,000 a month, 19 correct? 20 A Yes, by me. 21 Q You personally? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Until April 4th of this year, correct? 24 A That's correct. 25 Q All right. And you haven't paid him since, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1314 1 correct? 2 A No. 3 Q And what was he doing that you -- 4 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. I don't 5 know what the answer is. 6 MR. DANDAR: I'm sorry. 7 THE COURT: When you say "correct" and she 8 says "no," I don't know if that means "no, that's not 9 correct" or "yes, that is correct." 10 MR. DANDAR: Bad question. 11 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. 12 THE COURT: That's all right. It's when a 13 lawyer says "correct" or "isn't that true," that is a 14 leading question. You've heard us talk about leading 15 questions. That means it's kind of suggesting the 16 answer. 17 So if the answer is wrong, then that's kind 18 of a "no." If the answer is right, the answer is 19 "yes" when they say "correct" or "isn't that true." 20 So I don't know what she's saying. You'd 21 better fix that. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Why were you paying Jesse Prince -- 24 THE COURT: No, I want that question and 25 that answer -- I want to be sure that's the correct KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1315 1 answer. 2 Madam Court Reporter, go back to that 3 question and answer because I don't know what the 4 answer is. 5 MR. DANDAR: And I don't remember the 6 question. 7 (The reporter read back as follows. 8 Question: All right. And you haven't paid 9 him since, correct? Answer: No.) 10 THE WITNESS: The answer should have been 11 yes, that's correct, I have not. 12 THE COURT: See what I mean? 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, I do, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Now, why were you paying Mr. Prince in January 17 through April 4th of this year? 18 A Because Mr. Prince had no other possible source 19 of income. I felt sorry for him. I felt he needed some 20 help. 21 Q Okay. 22 A I convinced Mr. Minton that we should continue to 23 help Mr. Prince. 24 Q All right. The money you were paying Mr. Prince, 25 was that $5,000 a month? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1316 1 A That's correct. 2 Q And was that money coming from Mr. Minton? 3 A Yes. 4 Q All right. So Mr. Minton was giving you money to 5 put in your personal checking account so then you could 6 turn around and pay Mr. Prince out of your personal 7 checking account? 8 A Not only Mr. Prince, but any of the other 9 expenses that were still occurring as a result of what 10 needed to be done to wind down the Lisa McPherson Trust. 11 Q That included paying Mark Bunker? 12 A Yes. 13 Q That included paying for the Web site? 14 A Paying for the Web site? 15 Q Yes. You have to pay a monthly fee to the 16 Internet service provider? 17 A I haven't done that. 18 Q All right. Does Mark Bunker do that? 19 A Not as far as I know. 20 Q Who does? 21 A I don't know. 22 Q All right. Why is it that Mr. Minton can't pay 23 these people to wind down the Lisa McPherson Trust out of 24 his own checking account? 25 A He could, but he prefers that I deal with the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1317 1 day-to-day details of doing it. It's been my job to do 2 that for some time. 3 Q Does he give you a check every month to cover 4 these expenses, or does he just -- did he give you a lump 5 sum? 6 A He doesn't give me a check every month. 7 Q So how much did he give you to cover these 8 expenses? 9 A I believe about $100,000. 10 Q And when did that occur? 11 A Sometime in the fall. 12 Q Of 2001? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Was that written on his personal check, or was it 15 an anonymous check from a Swiss bank? 16 A I believe it was a personal check. 17 Q Did the Lisa McPherson Trust accept donations in 18 the fall of 2001 -- 19 A No. 20 Q -- from third parties? 21 A No. 22 Q Can you sit here today and recall any declaration 23 you ever filed in a court case that you actually lied under 24 oath? 25 A No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1318 1 Q When you put postings on the Internet, are those 2 postings truthful, or are they -- can they contain lies 3 made by you? 4 A I don't intentionally lie. 5 Q Not even in a posting, correct, to the Internet? 6 A Correct. 7 Q I didn't hear you. 8 A Okay. I said "correct." 9 Q Okay. Now, your prior testimony that started all 10 this recantation is that you and Bob Minton decided that 11 both of you needed to file recantation affidavits following 12 the statements made by either Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen to, 13 quote, set the record straight, close quote. Is that 14 right? 15 A I would say that it -- the process began earlier 16 than that. 17 Q When? 18 A When Mr. Minton decided that he wasn't willing 19 any longer to cover for you anymore for the wrongful death. 20 Q All right. What do you mean by cover for me in 21 the death case? What do you mean by that? 22 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I believe we've 23 gone over this. This is asked and answered. 24 THE COURT: I think we have, haven't we? 25 MR. DANDAR: No. This is the first time I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1319 1 heard it started before they met Mr. Rosen and 2 Mr. Rinder. 3 THE COURT: That's true. 4 A I think that it's not the first time. I think I 5 testified earlier -- 6 THE COURT: It just happens I overruled the 7 counsel's objection, so we'll have to have it again. 8 True or not? 9 You have to understand, my memory is 10 stretched here because of the number of days. And, 11 you know, truthfully, while this may be y'all's 12 primary case and you may be dwelling on it every day, 13 I have got lots of cases. And consequently, my mind 14 goes from this case to many, many other cases. So 15 should I think that something has not been covered and 16 it has, it's not that I'm trying to drag this out, 17 trust me. If I can't remember it, I can't remember 18 it, so . . . 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q So when did you and Mr. Minton get together and 21 decide not to cover for Ken Dandar anymore? 22 A Well, as I testified earlier, Mr. Minton was 23 becoming increasingly concerned about the legal troubles 24 that you were getting him into. And by -- by the time you 25 came up to ask him, beg him, for more money in February, he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1320 1 was extremely upset with you and the position that you had 2 put him in and told you so and told you that he didn't want 3 to have anything more to do with the wrongful death case. 4 And you begged him and pleaded with him, and he then gave 5 you more money for the case. 6 MR. DANDAR: I move to strike all this as 7 non-responsive. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q My question is simple. When did you and 10 Mr. Minton decide not to cover for Ken Dandar anymore in 11 the wrongful death case? 12 A I was answering that. 13 Q I think the question is -- 14 THE COURT: Well, that does require a date, 15 not all the long explanation. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q The date. Is it February of 2002? 18 THE COURT: Is that when Mr. Dandar came up 19 there? Is that the time -- 20 THE WITNESS: I would say -- 21 THE COURT: -- that you were explaining -- 22 THE WITNESS: I would say right after that. 23 THE COURT: I've forgotten. Was that in 24 February? 25 THE WITNESS: In the beginning of March. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1321 1 THE COURT: Okay. And that was around the 2 time frame when you all decided this -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: Okay. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q So up until the first week of March, 2002, you 7 and Mr. Minton had continued to agree to cover for Ken 8 Dandar in the wrongful death case? 9 A No. 10 Q All right. So my question is, When did you 11 first, both of you, decide not to cover for Ken Dandar in 12 the wrongful death case? 13 THE COURT: She just answered that. Oh. 14 But your question was up till then. 15 MR. DANDAR: I thought she said the first 16 week of March. But I said, "That's the first time?" 17 And she said, "No." 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q So my question is, When was the first time? 20 A Well, when I decided and when he decided are two 21 different dates. 22 Q All right. 23 A I had decided quite some time earlier than that, 24 Mr. Dandar. 25 Q When? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1322 1 A I would say the decision was really made in 2 August of 2001. 3 Q By you? 4 A Yes. 5 Q All right. What were you covering for Ken Dandar 6 on the wrongful death case that you decided not to cover 7 anymore in August of 2001? 8 A Well, I was attempting to keep this case on -- 9 keep this case going by -- I believe I told you this 10 earlier -- especially in that August 2001 deposition that 11 you attended in which your trial consultant Dr. Garko 12 advised me that Mr. -- 13 MR. DANDAR: Hearsay, hearsay. 14 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Counselor, you asked 15 the question. 16 MR. DANDAR: No, I asked the question of 17 what it was that she decided not to cover. 18 THE WITNESS: Well -- 19 THE COURT: I'm going to let her respond, 20 and if it includes hearsay, that's what it does. 21 MR. DANDAR: It's also work product. 22 THE COURT: I would suspect there's been a 23 lot of work product revealed here. I mean, you asked 24 the question. I'm going to let her finish answering. 25 A It was in the August 2001 deposition that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1323 1 Dr. Garko turned to me at a break and told me Mr. Minton 2 was about to go to jail on orders of Judge Baird and that 3 he'd better answer all the questions that he was being 4 ordered to answer, at which point I realized that Dr. Garko 5 didn't understand what was being done and that Mr. Minton 6 was testifying the way he was in depositions at your 7 request and that Dr. Garko didn't know that. And that made 8 me extremely upset. 9 THE COURT: Are we talking about the 10 deposition where the Fifth Amendment was taken? 11 THE WITNESS: No. This is my deposition, 12 your Honor -- 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 THE WITNESS: -- on August 15th, 2001. It 15 was a very major turning point for me, because in that 16 same deposition, Dr. Garko told me that Mr. Minton was 17 about to go to jail and Judge Beach told me that I was 18 about to go to jail. 19 THE COURT: Well, I guess that I don't 20 understand, because I really don't know what went on 21 in front of Judge Baird. But was Mr. Minton about to 22 go to jail in front of Judge Baird because Mr. Minton 23 had claimed the Fifth or because Mr. Minton wasn't 24 answering the questions or what was -- 25 THE WITNESS: Because Mr. Minton was trying KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1324 1 to -- well, basically because Mr. Minton was trying to 2 avoid going in the deposition at all so that he could 3 avoid answering the questions, which he didn't want to 4 answer because -- 5 THE COURT: Well, your -- I'm sorry, I don't 6 mean to interrupt you, but I thought you had said 7 Dr. Garko had said if Mr. Minton doesn't start 8 answering the questions, and that's what my question 9 is. What questions? The only ones I recall that he 10 didn't answer were the ones where he took the Fifth. 11 THE WITNESS: Right. But -- 12 THE COURT: Was there a deposition he 13 missed? I mean -- 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Are you saying, Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Minton 18 violated Judge Baird's order to show up for deposition in 19 the summer of 2001 because I told him not to show up? 20 A No, I'm not saying that. 21 Q And isn't that the only reason that Judge Baird 22 issued an order to show cause is because Mr. Minton 23 willfully refused to come to deposition in Clearwater in 24 the summer of 2001, as he was ordered to appear on a 25 certain date? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1325 1 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, your Honor. She's 2 having to testify to legal cause as to why Judge Baird 3 issued an order. 4 THE COURT: Well, she can testify if she 5 knows or if she thinks she knows. I mean, I don't 6 know myself, so . . . 7 A I believe that is what was happening. The reason 8 Mr. -- one of the reasons Mr. Minton was so concerned about 9 going into any deposition at all, either in Judge 10 Schaeffer's court or Judge Baird's court, was because of 11 the things that you wanted him to cover up for you under 12 oath in depositions. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Okay. So the question: What are those things 15 that I wanted him to cover up? 16 A I believe those have been covered. 17 Q Are you talking about this one check in May of 18 2000? Is that one of them? 19 A You were asking him to give a false answer to the 20 amount of money that he had given to the case. 21 Q Is that the one check in May of 2000? 22 A Yes, $500,000. 23 Q Okay. What else did I ask him to cover up? 24 A About the meeting that you told him -- that had 25 never occurred, that you in deposition actually elicited KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1326 1 perjury from him about, and about the agreement. 2 Q The meeting that I and -- as you said on Tuesday, 3 Dr. Garko also denied Mr. Minton was ever at that meeting? 4 A I didn't say that. 5 Q Didn't you have a conversation with Dr. Garko in 6 April of 2002 when he told you at your beach hotel in 7 Clearwater that Mr. Minton was never at a meeting where 8 David Miscavige was discussed as being added on as a party? 9 A He said he didn't remember it, and later he said 10 he did. 11 Q When did he tell you he remembered? 12 A He told Mr. Minton later. 13 Q When? 14 A Several days later. 15 Q Where? 16 A On the telephone. 17 Q Pardon me? 18 A On the telephone. 19 Q And where were you and Mr. Minton staying at that 20 time? 21 A I don't recall. 22 Q Were you staying on Clearwater Beach? 23 A I don't recall. 24 Q Was this call made by Dr. Garko to Mr. Minton? 25 A Perhaps. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1327 1 Q Were you in a hotel room when the call was 2 received? 3 A I don't recall. I believe it was on a cell 4 phone. 5 Q On Mr. Minton's cell phone or yours? 6 A Mr. Minton's, I believe. 7 Q Okay. Were you in Clearwater at the time? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And you remember the date? 10 A I don't. 11 Q Okay. Was it in April of 2002? 12 THE COURT: Counsel, she said, "I don't know 13 what the date of the meeting was where Dr. Garko went 14 to the hotel." She said it was a few days after that. 15 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 16 THE COURT: So if we know when that was, a 17 few days after that. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q When was the meeting with Dr. Garko at your beach 20 hotel? 21 A Sunday -- whatever the Sunday was after the 22 Tuesday, April 9th, hearing. 23 Q Well, that Sunday was April 14th. 24 A Okay. 25 Q That's the same Sunday -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1328 1 A Jesse Prince came later. 2 Q Jesse Prince came later. 3 A With Mr. Minton, yes, that's right, the very same 4 day. 5 Q Now, who set up this meeting between you, Bob 6 Minton, and Dr. Garko? 7 A Dr. Garko wanted to come over and see us. He was 8 very upset with you. You told him you weren't going to pay 9 him. 10 THE COURT: You're past the question, which 11 was who set it up. So if we're going to move this 12 along -- if you have to explain it, then explain it. 13 But when it's something like who set it up, you just 14 need to -- 15 THE WITNESS: Sorry, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: -- answer the -- 17 THE WITNESS: He's being extremely hostile 18 to me. 19 THE COURT: If he is hostile to you, I'll 20 tell you, this is very mild compared to what I 21 consider hostile cross-examination. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q So Dr. Garko called Bob Minton and said, "I want 24 to come over and talk to you." Is that your recollection? 25 A That's my recollection. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1329 1 Q Okay. Was this in the morning, the afternoon, or 2 the evening of Sunday, April 14th, 2002? 3 A Afternoon. 4 Q Before Jesse Prince arrived? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Up till the time that Jesse Prince arrived on 7 April 14th -- that was in the evening, correct? 8 A Correct. 9 Q Up until that time, you and Bob Minton thought 10 that Jesse Prince was agreeing with what Bob Minton was 11 doing in reference to testifying against Ken Dandar. Is 12 that right? 13 A We were beginning to have some doubt. 14 Q What's -- when was the first time you had some 15 doubt about Jesse Prince's alliance or allegiance to Bob 16 Minton? 17 A You mean -- you're talking about in this last 18 little bit of time? 19 Q Yes, before April 14th, 2002. 20 A You mean in his whole life? Or do you mean just 21 this last little meltdown that happened? 22 Q The last little meltdown. 23 A Well, two things happened that caused me to have 24 some doubt. 25 Q Okay. Tell me what those are. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1330 1 A When was I at -- Jesse had expressed to me some 2 concern that he needed counsel in order to move forward 3 with this. And I had told him that he -- that I would be 4 willing to cover the costs for him if he wanted to speak to 5 my attorney, Tom McGowan, about this. 6 Q Okay. When was that? 7 A Probably Tuesday or Wednesday or maybe -- yes, 8 when I spoke to him after the Tuesday hearing day. It was 9 either Wednesday or Thursday. 10 Q So April 10th or 11th. 11 A If that's Wednesday or Thursday. 12 Q Yes. The 9th was Tuesday. 13 A April 10th or 11th. 14 Q Okay. And did he say, "Okay, let me talk --" 15 A He said, "Great, yes, I appreciate that." 16 Q Did he talk to Tom McGowan? 17 A He went and talked to him on Friday morning, as I 18 understood. 19 Q Okay. And did Tom McGowan agree to represent him 20 then? 21 A No. I asked Jesse how it went. Jesse said it 22 went great. Then I had occasion to talk to Tom McGowan, 23 and Tom McGowan -- 24 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, privileged. 25 THE COURT: Okay. Sustained. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1331 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. 3 A Well, from what Tom McGowan told me, I had reason 4 to think -- 5 THE COURT: If your lawyer said privilege -- 6 Now if she wants to waive it, she can. So, 7 I mean -- 8 THE WITNESS: Okay. So I can't say anything 9 about it at all? 10 MR. McGOWAN: It's your privilege to waive. 11 MR. DANDAR: You can waive it if you want 12 to. 13 THE WITNESS: I don't want to waive my 14 privilege. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Okay. So as a result of that conversation, 17 whatever it might be, you started to think, "Gee, Jesse 18 Prince isn't agreeing with our position"? 19 A Well, I started to think that Jesse was doing 20 something other than what he was telling me. 21 Q What -- what was he telling you? 22 A He was telling me that he was really excited 23 about getting out of this whole sordid business, that he 24 didn't want to have anything to do with it anymore, but he 25 was very glad that Bob and I were giving him an opportunity KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1332 1 to extricate himself from this and from his involvement in 2 this. 3 Q And how is it that what you and Bob were doing 4 was going to get Jesse out of his involvement in something? 5 A Now, I for sure testified about this whatever day 6 was the last day I testified. But I'll testify again. 7 Q No. Is it the same answer? 8 THE COURT: What was it? 9 MR. DANDAR: I'd have to go look it up. I 10 don't remember. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q As quickly as you can, what was the reason why he 14 wanted to get out and what was he wanting to get out of? 15 A Well, now, that's not what you just asked me. 16 You just asked me why we wanted to help him. Which do you 17 want me to answer? 18 Q Answer that one. 19 A Which one? 20 THE COURT: Ask a question. 21 MR. DANDAR: Let me start over again. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Jesse -- you said Jesse Prince was all excited 24 because you and Bob Minton were testifying against Ken 25 Dandar. Is that your testimony? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1333 1 A That's not what I said at all, Mr. Dandar. 2 Q All right. Jesse Prince was all excited about 3 what? 4 A Being able to extricate himself from the mess 5 he'd gotten himself into. 6 Q Okay. What was the mess that he had gotten 7 himself into? 8 A Do you want me to tell you my opinion? 9 Q No. I want you to tell me what Jesse told you. 10 A I just did. That's what Jesse said. 11 THE COURT: He said he wanted to get out of 12 the mess he'd gotten himself into? 13 THE WITNESS: He was very glad to be able to 14 get himself extricated out of this mess, the same as 15 we were going to extricate ourselves from it. 16 THE COURT: Is the mess -- maybe I'm 17 confused. Is the mess this case? Or is the mess this 18 whole scenario of testifying in cases and -- 19 THE WITNESS: The whole scenario of 20 testifying. 21 THE COURT: And giving affidavits -- 22 THE WITNESS: Yes. 23 THE COURT: -- in cases and being paid for 24 being a consultant expert slash -- consultant slash 25 expert? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1334 1 THE WITNESS: Yes. 2 THE COURT: The whole thing, not just this 3 case? 4 THE WITNESS: Correct. 5 THE COURT: This was one of several? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Well, certainly Jesse Prince didn't say he was 10 excited to get out of the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 11 case, did he? 12 A Yes, he did. 13 Q He was already out of the Lisa McPherson wrongful 14 death case, wasn't he? 15 THE COURT: She may not know that, whether 16 he was or wasn't. Frankly, I'm not sure. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q You ordered -- you ordered him to withdraw as an 19 expert, you say, in August of 2001. 20 A That's correct. However, after that you had him 21 sign an affidavit and filed the whole severe sanctions 22 motion, which dragged him right back into the thing. And 23 he was very upset about that, and he was very, very much 24 looking forward to getting out of it. That's what he told 25 us. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1335 1 Q Okay. 2 A I understand that it's not what he's been telling 3 you, Mr. Dandar, but that is what he told us. He tends to 4 tell people what they want to hear. 5 Q So Jesse Prince, since you've known him since 6 1976, is a habitual liar? Is that what you're saying? 7 A I am saying that I have discovered since he was 8 arrested for drugs in 2000 -- in August 2000 that he tends 9 to lie a lot. He has lied to me, he's lied to Mr. Minton, 10 he's lied to you. 11 Q Are you sure he was arrested for drugs in August 12 of 2000? 13 A Whenever he was arrested for drugs. 14 Q Okay. What was the other reason -- you mentioned 15 two. What was the other reason that Jesse Prince -- that 16 you thought Jesse Prince was not going to follow down the 17 road with you and Bob Minton? 18 A The other reason that I thought that Jesse Prince 19 was lying to me about what he's doing is that he lied to me 20 about what he was doing on Saturday, August -- April 13th. 21 Q Because when you called his house, he wasn't 22 there and the kids told you later that he was there, or 23 something like that? 24 A No. 25 THE COURT: She did -- whatever it was. I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1336 1 remember she testified. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q That had nothing to do with the case, though, 4 right? I mean, he -- his kid said he wasn't home, and you 5 found out he was home. Is that -- am I right? 6 THE COURT: Whatever she said, she said. 7 MR. DANDAR: All right. 8 THE COURT: It hasn't changed, whatever it 9 was. 10 THE WITNESS: No. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Now -- 15 THE COURT: My memory was good if it was 16 just a few days ago. It's not too good if it was more 17 than a few days ago. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Now, at the time you contacted Mr. Rinder -- I 20 think you said in February of this year. Is that right? 21 A I don't believe I said that. 22 Q All right. When did you first contact Mr. Rinder 23 to start talking to him about you and Bob Minton wanting to 24 negotiate a settlement? 25 A Well, Mr. Howie contacted Mr. Pope in January, I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1337 1 believe, but I believe Mr. Minton first looked to 2 Mr. Rinder sometime in March. 3 Q Was that over the phone? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Okay. And the meeting with Rinder and Rosen and 6 Yingling in New York City on March 28th, that wasn't the 7 first meeting, was it, with Rosen and Rinder in person? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Wasn't there a meeting a week before that? 10 A No. 11 Q Do you recall calling Dr. Garko on his cell phone 12 while he and I were before Judge Schaeffer on another case 13 before March 28th? 14 A No, but perhaps you could refresh my memory. 15 Q If you don't remember, that's fine. Now, at the 16 time that you and Mr. Minton and Mr. Jonas's attorney met 17 with Mr. Rosen, Mr. Rinder, and Ms. Yingling in New York 18 City, the only one that was facing contempt charges before 19 Judge Schaeffer and Judge Baird was Robert Minton, correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q No one has filed any motion for contempt or order 22 to show cause against you in any case. Isn't that correct? 23 A That's -- I think there was one filed in the 24 Penick case, if I'm not mistaken, but not in this case. 25 Q If there was one, that had to do with violating KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1338 1 an injunction, right? 2 A Right. 3 Q Now, in the motion to add on David Miscavige and 4 RTC and CSI that was filed by the estate in August -- or, 5 September of 99, you signed an affidavit which incorporated 6 prior affidavits that you had filed in other cases. Do you 7 remember that? 8 A I believe Judge Schaeffer showed me an affidavit 9 the other day. 10 Q And those affidavits under oath by you spoke of 11 the power of David Miscavige as the captain of the Sea Org. 12 Do you recall that? 13 A I'd like to see it. 14 MR. McGOWAN: They speak for themselves, and 15 this has been asked and answered. 16 THE COURT: Yes. If she's -- 17 MR. DANDAR: I'm trying to lay a foundation. 18 THE COURT: If she says those are true, they 19 speak for themselves. Whatever she said, she said, if 20 they're true. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q All right. Did you review the brand-new 1999 23 affidavit of your husband at the time, Robert Vaughn Young, 24 that was filed with the motion to add on parties in the 25 wrongful death case? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1339 1 A If I did, I don't recall. 2 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Judge, I wanted them to 3 make a copy before I asked about this, but they said 4 the copier is too noisy. Can we have this copied 5 before I ask her questions about it? 6 THE COURT: Yes. 7 THE WITNESS: Can we take a little break? 8 THE COURT: Right now? 9 THE WITNESS: Just a few minutes. 10 THE COURT: Okay. Well, the witness needs a 11 break, so we're going to take a break. It's a quarter 12 to 10:00. It's early to take our break, but if we're 13 going to take one, let's take it. We'll be in recess 14 until 10:00. This will be our morning break a little 15 early. 16 (Break taken at 9:45 a.m. until 10 p.m.) 17 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, may we approach 18 for a moment? 19 THE COURT: Yes. 20 MR. McGOWAN: Thank you. 21 (Off-the record discussion held.) 22 THE COURT: Do you want this on the record? 23 MR. McGOWAN: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter. 25 (Off-the record discussion held.) KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1340 1 THE COURT: Sit down. 2 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, I want some 3 guidance from the Court on objecting to 4 asked-and-answered questions because I know sometimes 5 they're overruled and sometimes they're sustained. 6 And I understand, you know, that there's been many 7 days of testimony. And I don't want to make 8 unnecessary objections, but if I make them, it's 9 because I believe it's been -- 10 THE COURT: You may feel free to make any 11 one you want. As I said, if I overrule it, it's 12 because I don't remember it. 13 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. I just didn't 14 want to -- 15 THE COURT: It doesn't mean that I'm, you 16 know, suggesting -- you might remember it, but if I 17 don't remember it, I'll overrule it. 18 MR. McGOWAN: That's fine. 19 THE COURT: If I do remember it, believe me, 20 I'll sustain it. 21 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. Thank you, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: So feel free to make them. 23 And trust me, we're not going to go back 24 through all these meetings, because she did testify 25 about those. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1341 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. What's marked as Exhibit 33 by the clerk 3 is now in front of you, and it's your ex-husband's 4 declaration, Robert Vaughn Young, from December 26, 1999. 5 Is that correct? 6 A It seems to be, yes. 7 Q Okay. And in this declaration on -- 8 (A cell phone sounded.) 9 THE COURT: Well, it's nice to know that 10 both sides can be guilty of inappropriateness in the 11 courtroom. 12 BY MR. DANDAR: 13 Q Turn to paragraph 37. 14 THE COURT: What page, Counselor? 15 MR. DANDAR: Page 20, paragraph 37, of the 16 declaration. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q And Vaughn is talking about reviewing Jesse 19 Prince's affidavit that was filed also to add on additional 20 parties at this time and states, quote: "Declaration is 21 either true by my personal knowledge or fully consistent 22 with what I know about this organization and its policies 23 and its history." 24 Do you have any factual basis to tell us today 25 that what your -- Vaughn Young said then was false? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1342 1 A I can't really speak for Vaughn Young. 2 Q Okay. 3 A I didn't even -- I don't recall ever seeing this 4 affidavit prior to now. 5 Q Okay. Paragraph 38, Vaughn Young states under 6 oath that Lisa McPherson was, quote, "Held against her will 7 with the knowledge and consent and direct orders of 8 Scientology executives that would come directly from the 9 Religious Technology Center," close quote. Do you have any 10 facts today that would indicate that that statement by 11 Vaughn Young is false? 12 A As I said, I can't speak for Vaughn Young. 13 Q Okay. On page 21, at the top of the page is the 14 continuation of the paragraph 38, where Vaughn Young states 15 that, quote: "The Scientology maxim is the greatest good 16 for the greatest number. When it comes to protecting the 17 organization itself, that determines the morality of the 18 act. It is the end justifies the means. That is why she 19 was isolated. That is why there are records missing. The 20 organization and its command must be protected at all 21 costs. That is why Lisa McPherson died." 22 Do you have any facts today that would indicate 23 that those statements made by Vaughn Young under oath on 24 October 6th, 1999, are false? 25 A I know he couldn't know that they were true. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1343 1 THE COURT: That wasn't the question. 2 You'll answer that question. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Do you have any facts as you sit here today to 5 indicate that the statements made that I just read are 6 false? 7 A Again, as I said, I can't speak for Vaughn Young. 8 Q Okay. He also in this affidavit talks about the 9 corporate lines of Scientology being a sham, all 10 controlled -- all corporations of Scientology being 11 controlled by one person, Mr. Miscavige, since 1982. Do 12 you have any facts today that would indicate that that 13 statement by Vaughn Young under oath was false? 14 A I can't speak for Vaughn Young. 15 THE COURT: Maybe saying that some other 16 different way, is this -- I mean, in your own 17 experience, having been in the Church, do you agree 18 that that's true? 19 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think I've 20 testified a number of times previously that Vaughn 21 Young and I worked together as partners, as paid 22 witnesses -- 23 THE COURT: I'm sorry, I wasn't clear. The 24 hierarchy is such that David Miscavige would control 25 all of Scientology, whatever that question was. In KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1344 1 other words, would you believe that to be true? 2 THE WITNESS: I believe that Miscavige has 3 an enormous amount of control in Scientology -- as you 4 said the other day, like the Pope. 5 THE COURT: By the way, I have to be on a 6 conference call with a couple of justices at 12:30, so 7 my lunch break is going to probably be here 8 accordingly. And I don't know how long it's going to 9 go on. So I'll probably break around 12:30 for lunch. 10 MR. DANDAR: Judge, in that same package on 11 the notice of filing additional affidavits that were 12 delivered to you yesterday at your request, there is 13 an affidavit in there of Stacy Brooks. And I'm pretty 14 sure it was marked as an exhibit. 15 THE COURT: Did I request this whole thing? 16 I mean, I'm happy to have it, but -- 17 MR. DANDAR: Yes, you did. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Whenever I requested it, 19 I requested it in open court, right? 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. I didn't want anybody to 22 think I was calling him on the telephone to make the 23 request. 24 MR. DANDAR: If I can see it, I could 25 maybe -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1345 1 MR. FUGATE: Judge, what he did, I think -- 2 Mr. Lirot introduced these affidavits, and they were 3 connected to or attached to the motion. And he said, 4 "I would like to have the motion made a part of that 5 exhibit," which I take it has been done. 6 THE COURT: I don't know if it has or not, 7 but did he deliver me a copy of the motion and the 8 attachment, what all went with the motion. And I 9 assume that I asked for it. 10 MR. FUGATE: You did, Judge. I just want to 11 make sure that we're -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Let me find it. It's the one 13 that starts off looking like this. And it's dated -- 14 it's dated -- it's dated March 13th, 1997, at Seattle, 15 Washington, by Stacy Young. 16 THE WITNESS: He showed me that yesterday, 17 your Honor, I believe. 18 THE COURT: Nothing -- well, I don't know 19 about anybody showing anything yesterday -- 20 THE WITNESS: I mean day before, day before 21 yesterday. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Okay. And since you previously testified that 24 all of your declarations filed at any time anywhere are 25 accurate, this one from the Wollersheim case -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1346 1 A I didn't say they were accurate. I said they 2 were true. 3 Q Okay. This one from the Wollersheim case of 4 paragraph 9 -- 5 A What is this? 6 Q That's the filing that we made. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Could we just possibly for 8 the record note exactly what -- 9 MR. DANDAR: It's the March 13th, 1997, 10 Wollersheim affidavit declaration filed by Stacy 11 Brooks in the Wollersheim case, which is part of the 12 plaintiff's notice of filing additional affidavits and 13 other documents in support of plaintiff's motion to 14 add parties -- 15 THE COURT: In this case. 16 MR. DANDAR: -- in this case. 17 THE COURT: And as part of that, her 18 affidavit in the other case is attached. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I understand. It was 20 attached to her affidavit in this case -- 21 THE COURT: Yes. 22 MR. WEINBERG: -- this and one other 23 affidavit. Right? 24 MR. DANDAR: It's Exhibit 4 to that filing, 25 which is dated October 7th, 1999, and Exhibit -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1347 1 THE COURT: I've got notes on that. You 2 know, I read these things and make notes. I don't 3 want either of you looking at my notes. So if I've 4 got notes on it, give it back to me. 5 MR. DANDAR: Oops. There's no notes on this 6 one -- 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: -- not on this page, anyway. 9 THE COURT: I didn't get to it entirely. So 10 maybe if that's at the end, I didn't get to it. 11 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'm sorry, paragraph 28 12 on page 9. 13 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry. Mr. Dandar? 14 MR. DANDAR: Paragraph 28 on page 9. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Do you mind if I walk over 16 there? 17 THE COURT: No, I sure don't. You all may 18 feel free to move about the courtroom. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q Can you read that, please, of your declaration. 21 MR. WEINBERG: Read it to herself or out 22 loud? 23 MR. DANDAR: Out loud. 24 A Which paragraph? 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1348 1 Q 28. 2 A "I can state from personal knowledge from my 3 observation in Scientology that all Scientology 4 corporations are a sham and that David Miscavige and his 5 key aides can and do control every aspect of every 6 Scientology corporation and can at any time directly take 7 over and seize all practical control of any and all 8 Scientology corporations." 9 Q Okay. Thank you. 10 MR. FUGATE: Is there a question there? 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q That statement in your declaration is truthful, 13 correct? 14 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I object to that. 15 She's already testified it wasn't of her own personal 16 knowledge on Tuesday. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 A It was truthful, but it was embellished. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q That was based upon your personal knowledge as it 21 states in paragraph 28, correct? 22 A Yes, but I think I -- you could say I exaggerated 23 my personal knowledge. 24 Q So does that make it a lie? 25 A No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1349 1 Q Thank you. Let me show you what we'll have 2 marked as our next exhibit entitled "Integrity of Source." 3 34. 4 Exhibit 34 entitled the Integrity of Source, is 5 that a document, as far as you know, published by the 6 Church of Scientology International? 7 A Well, either -- well, I don't know if it was 8 published by the Church of Scientology International, but I 9 have seen it before. 10 Q The document actually states at the bottom, it's 11 published by the Watchdog Committee for the Church of 12 Scientology International, correct? 13 A Well, it says CSI colon WDC colon GAL. 14 Q No, above that. 15 A But it usually has a heading on the document, and 16 that's not here for some reason. 17 Q When you were in Scientology working -- 18 A It's not dated. I don't believe this is an 19 accurate copy of this. There's no date. 20 Q Okay. So there should be a date on there? 21 A In my experience. 22 Q Do you have any -- any facts as you sit here 23 today that the second paragraph, which states, quote, "No 24 one except RLH may cancel --" 25 MR. WEINBERG: I'm going to object. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1350 1 THE COURT: It's RH. 2 MR. DANDAR: What did I say? 3 THE COURT: RLH. 4 MR. DANDAR: Oh, my goodness. Sorry. 5 MR. WEINBERG: I have an objection. My 6 objection is, if she can't authenticate this, I don't 7 think Mr. Dandar should be reading from this document. 8 It's not in evidence. He showed it to her. She said 9 she can't authenticate it, doesn't have the dates on 10 it, doesn't have the normal headings on it. 11 THE COURT: Since he can't introduce it, I 12 think he can read from it and ask her whether that 13 statement is accurate or not. In other words, he can 14 ask her anything and ask her if it's accurate or not. 15 He can't assume from that that it comes from some 16 edict from the Watchdog Committee because by this 17 time -- 18 MR. WEINBERG: He can ask -- so what 19 you're -- he can formulate a question from text, but 20 not suggest somehow that the text is -- 21 THE COURT: From the Church, unless it can 22 be authenticated it's from the Church. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q You've seen a document before entitled the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1351 1 Integrity of Source, correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you see that while you were a Scientologist? 4 A I believe so. 5 Q And the document that you saw while you were a 6 Scientologist entitled the Integrity of Source concerned 7 and made it clear that anything that Mr. Hubbard wrote 8 could not be cancelled or changed in any manner except by 9 him. Is that correct? 10 A Yes. But the reason that I'm noting that there's 11 no date on this document is because I believe this was 12 written while Mr. Hubbard was still alive. 13 Q Okay. 14 A I mean, I think it was. And I believe that, from 15 my recollection, this issue was -- or, this directive was 16 published -- 17 THE COURT: The truth of the matter is this 18 thing isn't in evidence. So we don't care about this, 19 if it's not in evidence. He just asked you a 20 question, and you've answered it, I believe. 21 A Okay. When he was alive, that was a true 22 statement. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Okay. So has it been changed by somebody? 25 A I don't know. I haven't been there since 1989. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1352 1 Q And this concept or this firm Church policy that 2 nothing can be changed that was written by Mr. Hubbard or 3 cancelled except for typographical errors at the bottom, 4 that policy has enabled you to testify about the policy of 5 the Church of Scientology in the '90s because that policy 6 has never changed since you left the Church. 7 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 8 She said she hasn't been in the Church since 1989 -- 9 THE COURT: Sustained. 10 MR. WEINBERG: -- so how would she know? 11 THE COURT: I think that's true. I mean, I 12 don't know. Maybe it has changed. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Do you know if the policy in the Church of 15 Scientology has changed since you left in '89? 16 MR. McGOWAN: That was asked and answered. 17 THE COURT: No, it wasn't. Overruled. 18 A No, I don't. 19 THE COURT: I've read an awful lot of stuff 20 in this case that seems to suggest that the doctrine, 21 whatever Mr. Hubbard has written, is, in effect, the 22 scriptures -- I'm sure I'm saying this incorrectly, 23 but it is the doctrine of the Church. Do you have any 24 reason to believe that they have decided to do away 25 with some of his teachings or writings? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1353 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think that 2 you're absolutely right that the bulk of the 3 Scientology doctrine is from L. Ron Hubbard, and he is 4 considered the founder of Scientology. So I would 5 imagine that it still is true that his writings formed 6 the heart and soul of the organization. But -- 7 THE COURT: And during your tenure there, 8 whatever his writings were, were not to be changed by 9 anyone else in the Church. Is that true? 10 THE WITNESS: That's correct. 11 THE COURT: And I guess -- 12 THE WITNESS: As long as he was alive. 13 THE COURT: Okay. And you were in the 14 Church after he died? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 THE COURT: For how long? 17 THE WITNESS: Three years. 18 THE COURT: Okay. And during those three 19 years, were the writings of L. Ron Hubbard changed or 20 cancelled or anything like that as far as you knew? 21 THE WITNESS: Well, I think that there were 22 some administrative procedures that may have been 23 revised just because -- for practical reasons or 24 whatever. 25 THE COURT: Because they were new KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1354 1 administrators? 2 THE WITNESS: Yes. 3 THE COURT: Okay. But whatever it is he 4 wrote about Scientology, was any of that changed? 5 THE WITNESS: No. 6 THE COURT: And I guess the last question, 7 if you can answer it, is do you have any knowledge 8 since you've been out -- I mean, this can be from 9 hearsay or otherwise -- that the writings or teachings 10 of L. Ron Hubbard have been changed or have been 11 deleted or are allowed to be changed by Mr. Miscavige 12 or anybody else? 13 THE WITNESS: Well, from some hearsay, I 14 guess I would have to say I understand that some of 15 his things have been revised. 16 THE COURT: His -- his basic -- or, his 17 administrative matters or substantive writings? 18 THE WITNESS: I think more administrative. 19 THE COURT: Okay. And I think that's all 20 she can testify to. 21 MR. DANDAR: Okay. That's fine. 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I have this one that 23 says "policy." I don't know what the point is that 24 we're getting to. 25 THE COURT: This is not in evidence -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1355 1 MR. FUGATE: Okay. 2 THE COURT: -- so it doesn't matter. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Now, here's a foundation statement, and then I'm 5 going to get to my question. Previously you testified that 6 the first time Mr. Rinder ever approached you to recant 7 sworn declarations that you or husband made was in 1994. 8 Is that correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q He offered you $200,000 to do that. Is that 11 correct? 12 A No. 13 Q He offered you more than that, didn't he. 14 A Well, the way you're characterizing the meeting 15 is not exactly accurate. 16 Q How much money did he offer you in the 17 discussions, the eight days of discussions you and your 18 husband had with Mr. Rinder? 19 A I believe it was close to $200,000. 20 Q Are you sure it wasn't 450,000? 21 A I don't believe he ever offered that. 22 Q Now, isn't it true that you wanted to accept that 23 offer and recant your sworn testimony that you had given to 24 Attorney Graham Berry, but your husband, Vaughn Young, did 25 not? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1356 1 A No. 2 Q Did you ever tell your husband, Vaughn Young, 3 that you wanted to accept their offer and take the money? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And he said no. Correct? 6 A Correct. 7 Q All right. 8 A I wanted to settle with them at that point, and 9 he didn't. 10 Q Now, Mr. Rinder -- 11 THE COURT: The only question I have, was 12 there any reason to recant your testimony, your 13 affidavit at that time? 14 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 15 THE COURT: So the request was to recant a 16 truthful affidavit? 17 THE WITNESS: Actually, that -- there was no 18 request in that way. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 THE WITNESS: That's why I was having 21 trouble answering his question. 22 THE COURT: Well, what were you to recant? 23 I mean, when I think of recanting, you recant 24 something untrue and make it true. 25 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, we weren't asked KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1357 1 to recant. The word "recant" never came up. 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q What was the word he used to get you to somehow 5 change, alter, or withdraw your affidavits that you had 6 given to Graham Berry? 7 A The only issue that came up in that regard was 8 Mr. Rinder had reason to believe that Mr. Berry had -- had 9 had me -- I'll just speak for myself -- had had me sign an 10 affidavit, and then later Mr. Berry had added more pages to 11 the affidavit after I'd signed it. He had reason to 12 believe that because apparently -- apparently; this is 13 hearsay -- but that did happen to someone else. 14 Q Who? 15 A Vicki Aznaran. And Vicki Aznaran wrote it up, an 16 affidavit about that. 17 Q So you were willing to accept his offer and file 18 something saying that Mr. Berry had indeed -- 19 A No. 20 Q -- supplemented your affidavit? 21 A No, I was not willing. 22 Q What were you willing to do? 23 A I was willing to accept their offer, which was to 24 help us get on our feet. 25 Q And not -- not file anything in any court papers? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1358 1 A Yes. The idea of signing any affidavit in 2 which -- that idea that I had signed an affidavit and then 3 Mr. Berry had added pages to it later didn't come up until 4 the very last morning of our talks. 5 Q And you knew that allegation by Mr. Rinder was 6 false? 7 A Right. That's why we didn't sign the affidavit. 8 Q Now, Mr. Rinder did get Vicki Aznaran, after she 9 filed affidavits and gave depositions, to recant her 10 testimony, correct? 11 THE COURT: I'm sorry, who? 12 MR. DANDAR: Vicki Aznaran, A-z-n-a-r-a-n. 13 THE COURT: Had done what now? I'm sorry, I 14 was thinking about something else. 15 MR. DANDAR: Okay. I'll do it again. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Isn't it true that Mr. Rinder did succeed in 18 getting Vicki Aznaran to file recantation affidavits after 19 she testified in depositions and gave declarations in 20 another case? 21 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, foundation. If he 22 can establish a foundation that she has knowledge -- 23 THE COURT: If she has knowledge. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Do you have knowledge of that? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1359 1 A The only knowledge I have is that -- what I just 2 said, that she filed an affidavit later saying that 3 Mr. Berry had -- had her sign an 8-page affidavit and then 4 later she was shown something like a 17- or 18-page 5 affidavit with information in it that she hadn't written. 6 Q And who told you that? 7 A I saw it. 8 Q You saw her declaration saying that? 9 A Yes. 10 Q How much money was she paid? 11 THE COURT: I think the foundation has been 12 laid, so I'll allow it. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q How much money was she paid? 15 A I have no idea. 16 Q She was the former president of RTC, correct? 17 A She was the deputy inspector general. 18 Q Okay. She wasn't the president? 19 A I know that she was the deputy inspector general. 20 She was Jesse Prince's senior. 21 Q Okay. Now, Mr. Yanny, an attorney for RTC, whose 22 declarations we filed in that same stack of October '99, 23 along with yours and Vaughn Young's declarations, he 24 also -- was he asked to recant his prior declarations? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Objection. Foundation. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1360 1 THE COURT: If she knows. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q If you know. 4 A I have no idea. 5 Q Okay. Do you recall Mr. Rinder going to former 6 Scientologist Gary Scarff and asking him and succeeding in 7 getting him to file recantation affidavits or declarations? 8 A I don't know about that. 9 Q Do you know who Bill Franks is? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Who was -- what was his last highest post in 12 Scientology? 13 A Back in 1982, I believe, he was executive 14 director international. 15 Q Was he appointed executive director international 16 for life by Mr. Hubbard? 17 A I don't know. 18 Q Was he ousted from the Church -- 19 THE COURT: Wait. I didn't even hear an 20 answer to that. Maybe she doesn't know. 21 MR. DANDAR: I think she said she doesn't 22 know. 23 THE WITNESS: I said I don't know. 24 THE COURT: Oh, okay, I'm sorry. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1361 1 Q Was he ousted from the position in the Church of 2 Scientology by Mr. Miscavige? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. 4 Relevance. What's this have to do with this 5 proceeding, questions about Mr. Franks? 6 THE COURT: I would suspect that the 7 relevance is that Mr. Miscavige has authority over all 8 of Scientology. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Well, this is the person that 10 Mr. Dandar is now trying to substitute as a religion 11 expert. 12 THE COURT: Who? 13 MR. WEINBERG: Bill Franks -- Mr. Dandar is 14 now trying to use Mr. Franks as a religion expert. It 15 has nothing to do with this proceeding at all, as far 16 as I know. 17 MR. DANDAR: This proceeding is two-fold, as 18 you said yesterday and warned me -- 19 THE COURT: Overruled. 20 MR. WEINBERG: All right. And then my 21 objection is foundation again to her personal 22 knowledge. 23 THE COURT: And I think she understands by 24 now that if she doesn't know that she will say she 25 doesn't know. So if she says she knows or she's read, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1362 1 then it comes in. If she doesn't know, she'll say she 2 doesn't know, and we'll move on to the next question. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Were you in the -- were you in OSA at the time 5 Mr. Franks was ousted from his position in the Church of 6 Scientology? 7 A No. 8 Q What post did you have at that time? Beginning 9 of '81 and beginning of '82. 10 A I was in the Guardian's Office. 11 THE COURT: Who is Mr. Franks again? This 12 is somebody you're going to ask to add -- 13 MR. DANDAR: This is what I was going to 14 address this morning and asked to do it later. But 15 I'll tell you right now that I was fortunate to find 16 him in Tampa yesterday -- 17 THE COURT: What is his name? 18 MR. DANDAR: Bill Franks. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 MR. DANDAR: And I had him subpoenaed. And 21 he called me up after I had him subpoenaed and let me 22 know that he was leaving the Tampa area tomorrow at 23 6 p.m., if I wanted him to testify about whatever it 24 is, if I could get him on the stand by 4:00 tomorrow 25 so he can make his plane connection. And I was going KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1363 1 to bring that up with you. 2 THE COURT: Okay. So we'll deal with that 3 at the right time. 4 MR. DANDAR: Right. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q So anyway, do you have -- the Guardian's Office, 7 just so the record is clear, the Guardian's Office, after 8 Mary Sue Hubbard and some others were prosecuted and 9 convicted of breaking into government offices, that 10 office's name was changed to the Office of Special Affairs. 11 Is that correct? 12 A Well, the Guardian's Office was actually done 13 away with and a new organization was created called the 14 Office of Special Affairs. 15 Q And are you aware that your husband, Vaughn 16 Young, who served in both offices, disagrees with what you 17 just said, that it was done away with? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection as to the form. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Okay. The Guardian's Office is Department 20, is 22 it not? Was it not? 23 A Yes, it was. 24 Q Department 20? And isn't the Office of Special 25 Affairs also Department 20? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1364 1 A Yes. 2 Q And don't they basically do the same -- they have 3 the same function for the Church of Scientology? 4 A They have some of the same functions, yes. 5 Q Now, are you sure that when you saw Jesse Prince 6 leave the hearing in front of Judge Baird on April 9th, 7 2002, while Mr. Minton was testifying, that he left because 8 he thought Mr. Minton was going to jail? 9 A I'm sure that he told me that. 10 Q Did he also tell you that he left because he saw 11 his friend, Bob Minton, lying under oath in front of Judge 12 Baird? 13 A No. He told you that. He told me something 14 else. 15 Q How do you know what he told me? 16 A Well, I'm assuming he told you that because 17 you're asking me that and thinking that he told me the same 18 thing he told you, I guess. 19 Q So -- we can't have that. We can't speculate 20 what -- I mean, that's why I asked you. How do you know 21 what Jesse Prince told me? You're just guessing, right? 22 A That's right. 23 Q You're just guessing? 24 THE COURT: That's right, Counselor, unless 25 she has read it or seen it or something. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1365 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Okay. What did Jesse Prince tell you that he 3 heard Bob Minton say in front of Judge Baird that led Jesse 4 Prince to conclude -- 5 THE COURT: Although, actually, if she has 6 seen Jesse Prince's affidavit -- 7 I think you may have said that. 8 THE WITNESS: That's true. 9 THE COURT: Did you read Jesse Prince's 10 affidavit? 11 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 12 THE COURT: I think that was in the 13 affidavit. 14 MR. DANDAR: I just wanted to make sure it 15 wasn't a conversation. 16 THE COURT: So with that in mind that she 17 saw it, she has her reasons for suggesting that he may 18 have told you one thing and told her something else. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you -- 21 THE COURT: Asked and answered. 22 MR. DANDAR: No -- 23 THE COURT: Sorry. 24 MR. DANDAR: No, it hasn't. I don't think 25 so. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1366 1 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: She just told us. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you he heard Bob 5 Minton say in front of Judge Baird that led him to the 6 conclusion that Bob Minton was going to jail? 7 THE COURT: Okay. That's not been asked and 8 answered. 9 A He didn't tell me. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q When he told you that he left the hearing because 12 he thought Bob Minton was going to jail, did anyone ask him 13 to explain that? 14 A When he told me that, he was extremely distraught 15 about it, and I was more or less just listening to what he 16 was saying. And it wasn't really making much sense. 17 Q Now, the affidavit that you filed, your second 18 one, which is 34 paragraphs long, which we're just about to 19 get back into -- 20 THE COURT: What affidavit are we talking 21 about? 22 MR. DANDAR: The one that is the recantation 23 affidavit that is 34 paragraphs long. 24 THE COURT: We're not going to go through 25 old stuff. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1367 1 MR. DANDAR: No, no. I'm going to pick up 2 where I left off. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 MR. DANDAR: Hopefully do it quickly. 5 THE COURT: Oh, yes, that's the one you 6 thought you could finish the other day, and I said no, 7 you can't, we're going to stop. All right. Is that 8 going to be the end? Are you going to be done then? 9 MR. DANDAR: No. 10 THE COURT: Oh, all right. 11 MR. DANDAR: But real close. 12 THE COURT: Good. 13 MR. DANDAR: That -- 14 MR. LIEBERMAN: Only a few more days, Judge. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q This affidavit came after your first recantation 17 affidavit, correct? 18 A Okay. Now we're talking about my one that I 19 signed on April 29th again? 20 Q Yes. 21 A All right. So we're back to that. 22 Q Do you have that in front of you? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Okay. In the first recantation affidavit, you 25 stated that upon information and belief, you thought there KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1368 1 was a secret agreement between the Estate and Bob Minton 2 and the Lisa McPherson Trust. Do you recall that? 3 A Let me just pull that out. 4 THE COURT: It looks like he wants to talk 5 about the affidavit that's signed 17 April -- 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: -- 2002. And then the other one 8 is April 29th. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes. I was just pulling both 10 of those out. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 THE WITNESS: Okay. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Why did you phrase it "upon information and 15 belief"? 16 THE COURT: What -- tell me where you are so 17 I can look. 18 MR. DANDAR: I'm on -- 19 THE COURT: Which affidavit? 20 MR. DANDAR: The April 17th affidavit, page 21 2 of 4, paragraph 8A. 22 THE COURT: Okay. I see where you are. 23 A I think I testified earlier that my attorney 24 drafted quite a bit of this affidavit. So wherever you see 25 legal language like that -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1369 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that you have never 3 filed a declaration or affidavit using that language prior 4 to this time? 5 A That's probably true. It isn't something that I 6 would say. 7 Q And isn't it true that the reason why you used 8 this language "upon information and belief" is because you 9 don't know of any secret agreement personally, within your 10 personal knowledge, between the Estate and Bob Minton or 11 the Lisa McPherson Trust? 12 A No. 13 Q That's why this kind of shaky language is used? 14 A No. 15 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me. 16 MR. McGOWAN: "No," and then that was the 17 answer. Move to strike that. 18 THE COURT: Move to strike what? 19 MR. McGOWAN: The comment of counsel after 20 the no, about the shaky language. 21 THE COURT: Well, I'm not sure if he was 22 done with his question -- 23 MR. DANDAR: I wasn't. 24 THE COURT: -- and she started to answer it 25 before he was done. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1370 1 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 2 THE COURT: But as far as the "shaky" or 3 whatever, that's just -- you know, I just understand 4 lawyers use language, and that part of it is not 5 important. I don't know if that's shaky or not. I 6 think that's how people do things sometimes. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Now, I'm going to just go ahead and try to finish 9 this affidavit, and then I'll get back to something here. 10 Look at paragraph -- let's go to April -- 11 MR. FUGATE: Just so I'm clear, I was 12 confused on the end of the question and the answer. 13 Could we have it read back? Did he say that that's 14 true and she said no or -- 15 THE COURT: No, I don't think so. I think 16 he said "isn't it true that." 17 MR. FUGATE: Oh. 18 THE COURT: And she said, "No, that is not 19 true." In other words, I presume from that it is her 20 testimony that she was aware of an agreement. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, if you've got that -- 22 THE COURT: I got that. 23 MR. WEINBERG: I got that too. 24 THE COURT: Did I get that right? 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1371 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q This is the first time you ever used the phrase 3 "upon information and belief"? 4 THE COURT: I understood that too. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q All right. Here we go. Put that away and take 7 out the April 29th one and turn to paragraph 28. 8 A Okay. 9 Q And the second sentence that starts out, "I told 10 him I wanted to call Mrs. Liebreich and set up a meeting." 11 Do you see that? 12 A Wait a second. 13 Q I'm sorry. Okay? And you say, "I wanted to tell 14 her we could not continue our lies because Scientology was 15 closing in." What do you mean by "Scientology was closing 16 in"? 17 A I think I made that pretty clear in paragraph 27. 18 No, I'm sorry, not paragraph 27; paragraph 26. I was 19 becoming increasingly concerned, as I think I've said 20 several times, that Scientology's discovery actions with 21 regard to me and Mr. Minton were -- were getting to be such 22 that he and I both were -- were on a course of action that 23 was going to get us in a lot of legal trouble. 24 Q That concerned the not complying with discovery 25 orders of the Court, as you say in paragraph 26, correct? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1372 1 A And particularly Mr. Minton's perjury. 2 Q Well, where do you say that? Where do you say 3 that in particular, "Mr. Minton's perjury"? That's not in 4 paragraph 26, 27, or 28. 5 THE COURT: But she does say in paragraph 28 6 it's only a matter of time before "our" perjury. I 7 assume that means "our," hers and Mr. Minton's. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. I made 9 it as clear as I could. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Okay. Now, you also say in here that Mr. Minton 12 agreed with you to call up Dell Liebreich in August of 2001 13 and -- or, go meet with her to tell her to drop the case. 14 A Yes. He wanted me to do that, although, as it 15 says here, he didn't believe that she would. 16 Q Now, did you ever talk to Mr. Minton after he 17 gave his October 2001 deposition to Mr. Rosen in the case 18 before Judge Baird where he denied having any prior 19 knowledge of you trying to go see Dell Liebreich on your 20 own? 21 A I'm not familiar with that deposition transcript. 22 Q So if Mr. Minton testified that he didn't know 23 until you were about to go and told you not to go, that 24 wouldn't be a true statement, would it, according to 25 paragraph 28 of this April 29th affidavit. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1373 1 A Correct. 2 Q Did you ever tell Mr. Minton he needed to recant 3 that statement in his October 2001 deposition since it was 4 a lie? 5 A I didn't know he made that statement. 6 Q Did you read that deposition? 7 A No. 8 Q In fact, in that deposition, that answer in front 9 of Mr. Rosen, he used the F word to describe and quote what 10 he told you about your idea to go to see Dell Liebreich by 11 yourself. Do you know that? 12 A I think I just said I didn't read it. 13 THE COURT: Look, it isn't important if she 14 read it. 15 I suppose the real question is, Did he do 16 that? I mean, when this occurred, whatever this 17 discussion was between you all about calling Dell 18 Liebreich, did he tell you -- 19 What was your question? Not to -- 20 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Using the F word and telling you 22 not to? 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q "No blanking way are you going to go see Dell 25 Liebreich." Did he ever tell you that? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1374 1 A He may have used the F word, but not in that 2 sentence. 3 Q Okay. 4 A He would have used the F word in saying this 5 thing that I say here, in somewhat more genteel language, 6 that he did not believe she would drop the case. 7 Q Now, look at paragraph 30. Paragraph 30, you 8 talk about what's going on in August of 2001, when you did 9 [sic] go see Ms. Liebreich, and you wanted to distance 10 yourself more from the wrongful death case -- 11 A When I did go see Ms. Liebreich? What -- 12 Q Paragraph 30. It says you wanted to distance 13 yourself -- you, Mr. Minton, the LMT -- from the wrongful 14 death case. 15 A But I think what you said was after I did go see 16 Ms. Liebreich. I didn't. 17 Q No, after you did not go to see Ms. Liebreich -- 18 A Oh, okay. 19 Q -- it starts off in paragraph 30. 20 A All right. 21 Q Go down in the middle there where it says you 22 informed Mr. Dandar that "I would not appear as a witness 23 in the case." Are you saying under oath in this 24 declaration affidavit that you informed me in August of 25 2001 that you would not be a witness in the case? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1375 1 A Yes. 2 Q Isn't it true, ma'am, that you have never been 3 listed as a witness in the wrongful death case? 4 A No. 5 Q When were you listed as a witness? 6 A Well, the whole reason all this stuff was 7 happening and Scientology was being able to pull me into 8 all these depositions and all this discovery is because I 9 had been variously identified by you as either a consultant 10 or an expert witness. 11 Q You were never listed by the Estate as a 12 testifying expert witness for trial, were you? 13 A Was I -- 14 (A cell phone sounded.) 15 THE COURT: Mr. Bailiff, we can't just have 16 this. These phones just go off regularly. Nobody 17 cares a thing about the fact that I don't want phones 18 to go off in here. 19 THE BAILIFF: There's a sign out there. 20 I'll talk to her. 21 THE COURT: Put up a big sign. Write it on 22 a piece of paper and post it on the door -- 23 THE BAILIFF: Yes. 24 SEVERAL SPEAKERS: -- and say "Turn off all 25 cell phones before you enter this courtroom." KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1376 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, there is a sign. 2 THE COURT: There is? Nobody pays any 3 attention. Maybe I ought to put up a sign. 4 MR. WEINBERG: Maybe we're getting close to 5 that federal rule. 6 THE COURT: Yes. This is going to happen. 7 You know, I don't like to see the state courts run 8 like the federal courts, to be honest. I think 9 they're far too formal. 10 THE WITNESS: What happens in the federal? 11 THE COURT: You have to give up your cell 12 phone. You walk into court with it -- I mean, you 13 can't. They take it as security. So the lawyers 14 leave their cell phones in the car -- so do other 15 people -- because if they bring them in, they 16 confiscate them or tell them to take them back to the 17 car. So nobody can have a cell phone in the 18 courtroom, unless they hide it. If they hide it and 19 then if it goes off, they're in deep trouble in 20 federal court. 21 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, is Mr. Dandar 22 referring to the statements that she made or that all 23 the various times that she represented that she would 24 be a witness? 25 THE COURT: I don't know, and I don't know KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1377 1 that this witness would know that. I mean, she was 2 clearly -- in my mind, as I sit here, she was a 3 consultant for Mr. Dandar. 4 MR. MOXON: Filing papers -- 5 THE COURT: She might not know whether a 6 consultant necessarily would be listed as a witness or 7 not. So she probably doesn't know that. 8 MR. MOXON: Okay. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Now, paragraph 32 -- 11 THE COURT: Is that right? In other words, 12 you would never have asked to see a document showing 13 you that you were listed as a witness or you weren't 14 listed as a witness. 15 THE WITNESS: That's correct, your Honor, 16 but I did know that Mr. Dandar had identified me at 17 various points as a witness. 18 THE COURT: Either an expert witness or 19 consultant or something like that? 20 THE WITNESS: Right. 21 THE COURT: There is a difference. A 22 consultant is generally not a witness. A consultant, 23 there's work product privilege -- 24 THE WITNESS: Correct. 25 THE COURT: -- between the two people. An KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1378 1 expert witness is usually identified as someone who is 2 going to come in to court and testify as an expert. 3 And it was my understanding that you were not listed 4 as an expert witness, that Jesse Prince was. I don't 5 know, maybe you were. 6 MR. DANDAR: Jesse Prince and Vaughn Young. 7 MR. MOXON: In actual fact, she was, your 8 Honor. Mr. Dandar represented she would appear as a 9 witness in the case in answers to interrogatories. 10 THE COURT: She wouldn't know that either. 11 MR. MOXON: No. That was just Mr. Dandar's 12 representation. 13 THE WITNESS: I didn't. That's what I was 14 responding to. And also, Mr. Dandar had spoken to me 15 about the fact that he had some concerns about Jesse 16 Prince's credibility and wondered if maybe I would be 17 better, except then I had some credibility problems, 18 too, because of my relationship with Mr. Minton. But 19 he had spoken to me about the possibility of being an 20 expert for him as recently as that summer. 21 So I thought it was important for me to -- 22 THE COURT: Let him know you weren't going 23 to do that. 24 THE WITNESS: Let him know. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1379 1 Q Isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that you and I and Dan 2 Leipold had a telephone conversation about you being so 3 upset that I was -- that I would never consider you to be a 4 testifying expert in the wrongful death case? Do you 5 recall that? 6 A I don't understand your question. 7 Q Do you recall a three-way telephone conversation 8 between you, me, and Dan Leipold where you expressed how 9 upset you were because I wouldn't name you as a testifying 10 expert in the wrongful death case? 11 A No. 12 MR. McGOWAN: Could we have a time frame, 13 your Honor? 14 THE COURT: Well, she already said no. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Okay. Now, let's go to paragraph 32. When did I 17 ask Mr. Minton to meet me in Nashville, Tennessee? 18 A Do you want to skip paragraph 31? 19 Q We already talked about it. I don't want to 20 repeat it. When did I ask Mr. Minton to meet me in 21 Nashville, Tennessee? 22 A Let me just -- as I recall, it was in January. 23 Q This year? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. And that's because Mr. Minton had KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1380 1 called me up and said he wanted to meet me and suggested 2 Atlanta, Georgia, first. Do you recall that? 3 A Mr. Dandar, you were e-mailing Mr. Minton begging 4 him -- 5 THE COURT: Answer that question. Is the 6 answer no? 7 A No. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Do you recall Mr. Minton suggesting that I meet 10 him in Atlanta, Georgia, in January 2002? 11 A He may have suggested that as an alternative to 12 Nashville. I don't recall. 13 Q You were on the phone. Do you recall that 14 conversation? 15 A I don't, but I can imagine that that could have 16 happened since we have a house in Atlanta and he might have 17 thought that would be easier. 18 Q And you recall -- 19 A I don't know it never happened. 20 THE COURT: Wait, Counselor. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q And do you recall him saying that he did not want 23 to come to Florida at all? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And do you recall me telling him, "Well, meet me KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1381 1 in Nashville because I'm going to go take the deposition of 2 Dr. Fogo at Vanderbilt and I'll be there if you want to 3 come see and talk to me"? 4 A No, I don't, Mr. Dandar. 5 Q You don't recall Nashville being suggested? 6 A Yes, I do recall that, but I do not recall it 7 being Mr. Minton's -- at Mr. Minton's instigation. 8 Q Do you recall Dr. Garko being on the phone for 9 that conversation? 10 A I think I said I don't really recall the 11 conversation. 12 Q Okay. And then the Cayman Islands was suggested 13 by me because I had a family vacation in the Cayman Islands 14 in January. Do you recall that? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Okay. And your affidavit, of course, states that 17 I'm the one that was demanding a meeting or requesting a 18 meeting with Mr. Minton. But the truth of the matter is it 19 was Mr. Minton who was requesting a meeting with me. Isn't 20 that true? 21 A Wrong. 22 Q Isn't it also true that Mr. Minton would never 23 tell me in January or February until I came to New 24 Hampshire why he wanted to meet with me? 25 A He didn't want to meet with you, Mr. Dandar. You KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1382 1 wanted to meet with him and said so repeatedly -- in 2 writing too, so . . . 3 Q Where is the writing? 4 A I think you'll see it. 5 Q Okay. Now, when we came to New Hampshire, 6 Dr. Garko -- 7 THE COURT: I don't know what is happening, 8 "I think you'll see it." 9 MR. DANDAR: I guess I'll wait for 10 Mr. Minton. 11 THE COURT: Oh, Mr. Minton has it? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes. 13 THE COURT: Okay. You mean when he 14 testifies it may be something -- 15 THE WITNESS: I would expect so. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q When Dr. Garko and I arrived in New Hampshire the 19 last weekend of February 2002, you greeted us in the 20 airport, correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And Mr. Minton was waiting outside by his SUV, 23 correct? 24 A Yes. In it, in his SUV. 25 Q Okay. And he stated he was in the SUV because he KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1383 1 didn't want to be accosted by Scientology operatives inside 2 the airport. Is that right? 3 A I don't remember that. 4 Q Okay. And when you and I met, we gave each other 5 a big hug, didn't we? 6 A As a matter of fact -- excuse me. Let me just go 7 back to the earlier question. I believe that by that time 8 he was not really even wanting to be seen with you. 9 Q Okay. When you and I met, we gave each other a 10 big hug, correct? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And Dr. Garko gave you a hug as well? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And then when we went with you and Mr. Minton in 15 the SUV, we went to the supermarket, didn't we? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Where all the public members of the world who 18 gather in that town go to shop to buy food. And Mr. Minton 19 was seen with me walking through the supermarket, wasn't 20 he? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And you and Dr. Garko. 23 A Yes, and we bought you some grapefruit. 24 Q And we went to Mr. Minton's farmhouse, and you 25 cooked a great Indian dish. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1384 1 A Thank you. 2 THE COURT: Is there something relevant 3 here? 4 MR. DANDAR: Here it is. 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And just before we sat down to dinner -- 8 THE COURT: Maybe we can all get together 9 and have a nice dinner. Ms. Brooks will be cooking. 10 THE WITNESS: I'm a very good Indian cook. 11 THE COURT: Well, good. I don't know much 12 about Indian food, but I would like to try. 13 MR. DANDAR: It was wonderful. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And just before we sat down for dinner, 16 Mr. Minton had this emotional breakdown in front of all of 17 us, didn't he? 18 A Well, he started to tell you about the reasons 19 why he was upset with you, and he got very upset. 20 THE COURT: Is that a yes? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Well -- you know, your 22 Honor, I'm not sure I would call it an emotional 23 breakdown. That's my problem with the question. 24 THE COURT: All right. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1385 1 Q Well, he was crying, wasn't he? 2 A Yes, he was. 3 Q And he was crying uncontrollably, wasn't he? 4 A He was crying. 5 Q In fact, the only other time when I was in his 6 presence with you when he was crying like that was in his 7 house on Belleair Beach. Is that right? 8 A Uh -- 9 Q Do you recall that? 10 A I do recall that. I don't know if that was the 11 only time in your presence. 12 Q And in this New Hampshire house, he said he was 13 crying because he thought I was no longer his friend. Do 14 you recall that? 15 A Would you like for me to tell you what I recall? 16 Q No. I just want you to answer yes or no. 17 A I don't recall those words. 18 Q You don't recall that? 19 A What I recall him saying is he could no longer 20 trust you or the Estate or Dell Liebreich. 21 Q Isn't it true, yes or no, Mr. Minton said at that 22 point that he was so upset because he thought I was no 23 longer his friend? 24 A Okay. I think I just said I don't recall that. 25 Q Okay. Isn't it true that Mr. Minton said he was KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1386 1 so upset because of all the attacks the critic community 2 was sending his way on the Internet about stopping the 3 funding of the Lisa McPherson Trust case? 4 A He said he felt you were orchestrating that 5 campaign via your new trial consultant -- 6 THE COURT: Is that a yes, that he did say 7 that he was upset about that? You've got to answer 8 the question, ma'am. Then you need to explain it if 9 you can. Did he say he was upset about the Internet 10 campaign criticizing him for not funding the lawsuit 11 anymore? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, but the thing he was 13 particularly upset about was he felt Mr. Dandar was 14 orchestrating the campaign to try to put pressure on 15 him to continue funding. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that I went up to 18 Mr. Minton and told him that I was still his friend even if 19 he wasn't funding the case anymore? 20 A Yes, Mr. Dandar, that is true. You did say that. 21 Q And when we sat down at the dinner table, 22 Mr. Minton had composed himself. Isn't it true that 23 Mr. Minton sat across from me at the table, straight 24 across? 25 THE COURT: We're talking four people. You KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1387 1 almost have to sit beside somebody or across from 2 somebody. 3 BY MR. DANDAR: 4 Q Right? 5 A I suppose that's true. 6 Q It's a 50-50 chance. 7 A 50-50. 8 Q And at that dinner table, isn't it true 9 Mr. Minton told me he has no more funding for the case? 10 A Yes. He told you that a number of times that 11 week. 12 Q And isn't it true at that time he said, "But I 13 have a friend in Europe who may consider sending you 14 money"? 15 A I don't recall that. 16 Q And didn't he say, "Let's call him the fat man"? 17 A I don't recall that. What I recall is that he 18 told you repeatedly over the weekend that he wasn't going 19 to fund the case anymore. 20 Q And isn't it true, Ms. Brooks, that at that 21 dinner table he also said that this person in Europe would 22 want me to send a letter to Bob Minton to explain that I am 23 still his friend and how highly I consider him, Bob Minton? 24 A Yes, as a matter of fact, I do remember that. 25 Q Okay. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1388 1 A And I know that Mr. Minton had told me earlier 2 that you and he had agreed that he needed to couch it in 3 those terms in front of Dr. Garko. 4 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike. 5 THE COURT: Sustained. 6 MR. DANDAR: Unresponsive. 7 THE COURT: That is unresponsive. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Now, turn to paragraph 33. On Sunday morning in 10 New Hampshire at Mr. Minton's farmhouse -- 11 THE COURT: I hope you all don't think that 12 if we ever get to trial that I'll let witnesses be 13 like -- this is a different hearing. 14 MR. FUGATE: Well, I certainly know that you 15 won't be. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Paragraph 33 -- wait a minute. Sorry. Oh, yes, 18 paragraph 33, you allege that I was coaching Mr. Minton on 19 how to answer the 80 or 90 questions that Judge Schaeffer 20 had ordered him to answer, correct? 21 A That's correct. 22 Q Okay. Now, isn't it true that on Sunday morning 23 in Mr. Minton's farmhouse you, I, and Dr. Garko sat down 24 with Mr. Minton, and I started to go over the Judge's order 25 to show cause? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1389 1 A You went over each one of the questions listed. 2 Q And isn't it true as we went over each one of 3 those 80 or 90 questions, I kept telling Mr. Minton, "All 4 you've got to do is answer the question. There's no reason 5 to plead the Fifth Amendment"? 6 A On some of them you said that, yes. 7 Q Isn't it true that I never told Bob Minton to lie 8 under oath when he reconvened his deposition in the 9 wrongful death case? 10 A That you didn't say those words? 11 Q Yes. 12 A Yes, that's true. 13 Q I never told him to lie, did I? 14 A You never said -- you never said the words "you 15 should lie." That's true. 16 THE COURT: Or "commit perjury" or any of 17 those words like that? 18 THE WITNESS: Your Honor -- 19 THE COURT: I mean, I'm not asking you what 20 he said, but when I hear "lie," all I'm saying is did 21 he say "I want you to lie" or did he say "I want you 22 to commit perjury"? 23 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. He just 24 suggested ways that the questions could be answered 25 that would be untruthful. But he didn't say those KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1390 1 words. He didn't. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q All right. Well, then let's go -- tell the Court 4 what I said that caused you to believe that I was 5 suggesting in any detail whatsoever that Mr. Minton answer 6 a question that was untruthful. 7 A Okay. 8 THE COURT: If you remember. 9 A What I remember is you talking about the fact 10 that he only had to disclose checks he'd written. And I 11 remember having the distinct impression that you were 12 suggesting that he leave out that check that he had given 13 you. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q That one check in May of 2000, out of the 10 or 16 12 checks that he wrote out of his personal account? 17 A No. It was a $500,000 check -- 18 Q Yes. 19 A -- so it was really substantial. 20 Q So how did I suggest, as you say, to Mr. Minton 21 on this Sunday morning that he could answer the question 22 and lie or not be truthful in his answer? 23 A I think I just said. You said, "Bob, you only 24 have to talk about checks that you wrote." 25 Q And at that time, were we not all under the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1391 1 impression that Mr. Minton -- his funds were not used for 2 that May 2000 check? 3 A No. I thought it had been and so did you. And 4 Bob had actually taken Mr. Prince and I up under the roof 5 after he gave that you check and told us that you didn't 6 want it known to his -- I mean to yourself that you had 7 gotten that money from Mr. Minton. 8 Q Isn't it true that when you went up on the roof 9 with Jesse Prince in May of 2000 that it was Bob Minton who 10 said he didn't want Scientology to know that he had given a 11 check through this third party in Switzerland? 12 A No, Mr. Dandar, that's not true. 13 Q Okay. 14 THE COURT: Can you tell me why -- I don't 15 understand why somebody went to the roof to talk. 16 THE WITNESS: Well, at the time, your 17 Honor -- 18 THE COURT: I mean, is it a roof where they 19 have a big garden and a -- 20 THE WITNESS: No, no, no. 21 THE COURT: This is not a roof where one 22 goes to sit and use the pool, like at my condominium? 23 THE WITNESS: No, no. 24 THE COURT: Why did we go to the roof? 25 THE WITNESS: Well, you probably want to ask KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1392 1 Mr. Minton that question -- 2 THE COURT: Okay. 3 THE WITNESS: -- but I can tell you my 4 understanding of why, is that at the time we were at 5 the LMT office and there were these video cameras 6 trained on the -- going up to the roof was a good 7 place to go to not be seen or listened to by anybody 8 in that particular area. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q You had a video camera trained on the entrances 12 to the Lisa McPherson Trust offices operated by the Church 13 of Scientology, didn't you? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You also found when you moved into those offices 16 that someone had wiretapped the phone lines to that office. 17 A Well, we found that something had happened to the 18 wiring, and we were never able to determine whether it had 19 been a tap or not, because it's an old building and the 20 phone man said it could have just been earlier wiring. We 21 were never sure. 22 Q Now, you said -- I'm done with the affidavit. 23 You said that when you testified in June of 2000, which is 24 just a month after Mr. Minton testified in May of 2000 -- 25 and you said that this anonymous $500,000 came to the LMT. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1393 1 You testified that way because that's what Mr. Minton told 2 you. Right? 3 A Correct. 4 Q Do you have any reason at the time you 5 testified -- at the time you testified in June of 2000 that 6 what Mr. Minton told you about that check was untruthful? 7 A No. 8 Q When did Mr. Minton tell you that what he told 9 you and what you testified about on June of 2000 was a lie? 10 A I think shortly after the LMT was dissolved. 11 Q So it was in December of 2001? 12 A Well -- 13 Q Or August? 14 A The LMT went dormant as a corporation in early 15 September, so it could have been perhaps October. I don't 16 remember. 17 Q Well, you gave a deposition on August 15th of 18 2001. Did you know about it then? 19 A No. 20 Q Didn't you give a deposition after that in the 21 breach of contract case? 22 A I don't recall. I don't believe so. 23 Q Okay. But you knew that Mr. Minton gave a 24 deposition in September of 2000 and in October of 2001 -- 25 September 2001 and October of 2001. Is that right? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1394 1 A If he gave them, I'm sure I knew. 2 Q Did you tell Mr. Minton to plead the Fifth 3 Amendment to that question so that you wouldn't be found to 4 have not told the truth in June of 2000? 5 A No. 6 Q Has Mr. Minton told you why he pled the Fifth 7 Amendment to the questions in September and October of 8 2001? 9 A He had met with his attorneys extensively 10 beforehand, and I wasn't privy to those conversations. 11 Q I know. But did he tell you afterwards why he 12 pled the Fifth Amendment to the questions that he did plead 13 the Fifth Amendment to in the September and October 2001 14 depositions? 15 A Well, I can tell you what he did tell me. 16 Q Yes. 17 A He told me that he was trying to avoid having to 18 lie under oath anymore. 19 Q About what? 20 A Well, he didn't specify, but I assumed it was the 21 same things that he had been upset about lying about for 22 you. 23 Q And that's this -- that's this May 2000 check for 24 $500,000 and the so-called secret agreement. That's it, 25 right? There's nothing else that he was concerned about, KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1395 1 was there. 2 A I think -- 3 THE COURT: He sure took the Fifth Amendment 4 a lot more questions than that. 5 MR. DANDAR: I know. 6 THE WITNESS: I'm just telling you what he 7 told me. 8 THE COURT: And he made it clear at the 9 beginning of his deposition that he was going to take 10 the Fifth Amendment and why, so that's clear. Did you 11 read that? As to why he said he was taking the Fifth? 12 THE WITNESS: I don't believe I did, your 13 Honor. 14 THE COURT: Okay. Then she wouldn't know. 15 MR. DANDAR: All right. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q I'm not going to ask you questions, but look at 18 your affidavit, the twenty- -- 34-paragraph one that we 19 just went through. But that affidavit includes a whole lot 20 more than just the wrongful death case and the breach of 21 contract case, right? 22 A Which affidavit are we talking about? 23 Q The last one, the 34-paragraph one. 24 A Okay. 25 Q That includes allegations in there about Dan KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1396 1 Leipold and Ford Greene, who were California attorneys. 2 A Is Ford Greene in here? I don't remember that. 3 Where is Ford Greene? 4 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, whatever it 5 contains, it contains. 6 THE COURT: Right. 7 MR. McGOWAN: It speaks for itself. 8 THE COURT: I do remember something about 9 Mr. Leipold. I don't know who Ford Greene is, so I 10 might not know who that is. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Oh, I'm sorry, Dan Leipold and Graham Berry on 13 paragraph 2 -- 14 A Yes. 15 Q -- of that affidavit. 16 A M'hum (affirmative). 17 THE COURT: "M'hum," she -- 18 A Yes, I'm sorry, yes. 19 BY MR. DANDAR: 20 Q You put in Dan Leipold's name and Graham Berry's 21 name because it was suggested to you by Mr. Rinder or 22 Ms. Yingling that you needed to do that. Isn't that true? 23 A That's not correct. 24 Q In fact, you do know that this affidavit was used 25 by Mr. Rosen in the Wollersheim case a few weeks ago to try KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1397 1 to get Mr. Leipold disqualified. Do you know that? 2 A Mr. Lirot told me that. 3 Q Did you know that? 4 A No, I didn't know that. 5 Q Did you know when you signed this affidavit that 6 the Church of Scientology was going to use this to try to 7 get Mr. Leipold disqualified in the Wollersheim case? 8 A No, I didn't. 9 Q Do you know that after that 20-minute hearing 10 before the judge in California, within two weeks the Church 11 of Scientology paid him the full amount of the judgment 12 with interest? 13 A I knew that the judgment was paid. 14 THE COURT: Are you suggesting that the 15 judge out there was able to conclude this hearing that 16 I'm taking all this time in 20 minutes? 17 MR. DANDAR: I hate to tell you that, but -- 18 THE COURT: Oh. 19 MR. DANDAR: I'm sure it didn't involve all 20 of the same issues. 21 THE COURT: One would hope not. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q Now, when you and Mr. Minton called me on the 24 evening of Good Friday, March 29th, of 2002, Mr. Minton 25 said on the phone that he concluded the discussions with KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1398 1 Mr. Rosen and Mr. Rinder that day and that I had to get 2 Dell Liebreich to dismiss the Lisa McPherson case? 3 THE COURT: I'm sorry, my head was out in 4 California, how a judge could do this in 20 minutes, 5 trying to think if I could make a phone call. 6 MR. LIEBERMAN: Your Honor, actually, I 7 don't think he addressed the issue. He was going to, 8 and he never reached it. 9 THE COURT: Oh, okay. Well, that makes me 10 feel better. 11 So ask your question again, because I was 12 thinking about that. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q When you and Mr. Minton called me on the evening 15 of Good Friday, March 29th, 2002, isn't it true that 16 Mr. Minton told me that the Lisa McPherson case had to be 17 dismissed? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And isn't it true that when I told him how 20 outrageous that request was, he told me that that request 21 to dismiss the case came from the representatives of the 22 Church of Scientology in that meeting on March the 29th? 23 A I don't recall that. 24 Q Isn't it true that in the meetings on March 28th 25 or March the 29th of 2002, either Mr. Rosen or Ms. Yingling KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1399 1 or Mr. Rinder said the Lisa McPherson case had to be 2 dismissed? 3 A I think I've already testified about this. 4 THE COURT: Answer it again, please. 5 A What I -- 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Is it yes or no? 8 A No. 9 Q Did the words "dismissal of the Lisa McPherson 10 case" ever come up in your discussions? 11 A Yes. 12 Q Which way? How? 13 A I can't remember if it was Mr. Rinder or 14 Mr. Rosen -- I think it was Mr. Rinder, actually -- said 15 basically, before they would consider any kind of 16 settlement with us, they would require that we set the 17 record straight in the wrongful death case. And during 18 that conversation, either Mr. Rinder or Mr. Rosen said that 19 they felt that if we set the record straight, the case 20 would end up being dismissed. 21 Q Isn't it true during your conversation with me, 22 Bob Minton, and yourself on the night of March 29th the 23 words "set the record straight" was never mentioned? 24 A That's probably true. 25 Q Isn't it true in that conversation that Bob KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1400 1 Minton said if the case was not dismissed immediately the, 2 quote, blood and death of his daughters, his wife, and 3 himself would be on my hands? 4 A I think he said "the blood." 5 Q Did he say "blood and death" or just "blood"? 6 A I think just "blood." 7 Q Okay. 8 A But, you know. 9 Q Do you know what Mr. Minton meant when he used 10 the word "blood"? 11 A Yes. 12 Q What? 13 A It was a fairly dramatic way of saying -- and I 14 think he also said that you and he were both going to go 15 down -- 16 THE COURT: Before you get into the rest of 17 it, tell him -- he asked you what it meant. So -- 18 THE WITNESS: Well, okay. It was a fairly 19 dramatic way of -- I mean, he wasn't -- it was just a 20 dramatic way of saying that they were going to both be 21 destroyed. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And then when I said there was no way my client 24 would dismiss the case, did you say to me, "Then send all 25 the money back that Bob Minton has ever given to you"? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1401 1 A I said then you should send the money back, yes. 2 Q And Bob Minton said, "No, I don't care about the 3 money." Do you remember that? 4 A I don't remember what he said about it, but I 5 certainly remember telling you that you should return the 6 money. 7 Q Now, we're going to come back to that, but I just 8 remembered something. August of 2001 isn't the first time 9 you threatened to try to shut down the Lisa McPherson 10 wrongful death, isn't it? 11 A I think it is. 12 Q Do you recall calling me on my birthday? 13 A When is your birthday? 14 Q On January 22nd, when the Church of Scientology 15 was trying to take the deposition of Maria Pia Gardini, a 16 former Scientologist from Italy? 17 MR. WEINBERG: Could we have a year, please? 18 THE COURT: Well, if she remembers. Maybe 19 she'll remember the year. 20 Do you know the year? 21 MR. DANDAR: I don't know the year. She was 22 only here once. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q When was she in town, what year? 25 THE COURT: If you all took the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1402 1 deposition -- was the deposition taken? 2 MR. DANDAR: No, I don't think so. 3 THE COURT: Well, is there a notice of 4 taking deposition? 5 MR. DANDAR: I don't think so. I don't know 6 what happened, but -- 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Do you remember calling me on my birthday, I 9 believe in 2001, telling me when I was at lunch with my 10 staff that I didn't stop the deposition of Maria Pia 11 Gardini you were going to shut the case down? 12 A I don't remember what I said, but I do remember 13 being very upset about your not wanting -- not being 14 willing to do anything to protect Maria Pia Gardini. 15 Q Now, the Wollersheim judgment was paid in full 16 with interest out in California. Did Bob Minton contribute 17 at all to the payment of that money? 18 A Not to my knowledge, although I know it's been 19 reported that he did on the Internet. 20 THE COURT: What money? The settlement 21 money? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes, 8.6 plus million dollars. 23 THE COURT: Oh, you're asking if he 24 contributed money to Scientology, whoever the 25 defendant is, to pay the money. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1403 1 MR. DANDAR: Right. 2 BY MR. DANDAR: 3 Q As far as you know, he didn't? 4 A No, Mr. Dandar. 5 THE COURT: Well, he didn't have a judgment 6 against him, did he? 7 MR. DANDAR: No. 8 THE WITNESS: No. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: No. But the theory that's 11 been propagated is that Mr. Minton was required by 12 Scientology to pay the $8 million. 13 THE COURT: Oh. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Now, the -- when Mr. Rosen or Mr. -- when 16 Mr. Rosen, I think, was talking to you and Bob Minton in 17 March 28 of 2002 in New York City, he did mention something 18 about a RICO suit, correct? 19 A Yes -- 20 MR. McGOWAN: Objection, Judge. This has 21 been covered. 22 THE COURT: It has been, that's true. 23 BY MR. DANDAR: 24 Q Did he mention the figure of $110 million? 25 A I don't recall that. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1404 1 Q Did he show you any paperwork that he had in his 2 possession? 3 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, this is asked and 4 answered. This whole meeting has been -- 5 MR. WEINBERG: Remember, there was the lists 6 they talked about and the cases -- 7 THE COURT: Right. I don't recall 8 whether -- if she was asked whether the figure 110 had 9 been -- 10 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, because you had even 11 questioned the witness about it, I understand it's not 12 a prosecutor, a civil lawyer, civil and criminal 13 offense. 14 THE COURT: Now I remember. Sustained. 15 Thank you. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Did Mr. Rosen show you and Mr. Minton an actual 18 draft of a complaint? 19 A I don't recall. 20 Q Do you remember telling anybody that you saw an 21 actual draft of a RICO complaint that had Bob Minton's name 22 on it, my name on it -- 23 A No. 24 Q -- Dan Leipold's name on it? 25 A That didn't happen. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1405 1 Q During the evening telephone call you and Bob 2 Minton made to me on Good Friday, March 29th, isn't it true 3 that Bob Minton said that Scientology had discovered 4 something very damaging about its finances in Switzerland? 5 A No, Mr. Dandar, that is not true. 6 Q After you and Bob Minton and Jesse Prince had 7 this falling out on Sunday, April 14th, at the hotel on the 8 beach during dinner, did you go to Jesse Prince's house to 9 celebrate your birthday? 10 A No. 11 Q Not that day, but the following week or the 12 following two weeks? 13 A No. 14 Q Did you -- did you celebrate your birthday at any 15 time in 2002 at Jesse Prince's house here in Clearwater? 16 A Yes. 17 Q When? 18 A Right after the hearing on April 9th before Judge 19 Baird. Bob and I both went over to Jesse's house. Jesse 20 wasn't there. But Dee was there and several other people 21 were there, and they gave me some little gifts. 22 Q When Jesse Prince met you and Bob Minton on 23 Sunday evening, April 14th, did Bob Minton tell Jesse that 24 there were some things that he had to recant in his prior 25 deposition or declarations or affidavits in the Lisa KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1406 1 McPherson case? 2 A Did Bob Minton tell Jesse that? 3 Q Yes. 4 A I don't believe he specified. I don't recall 5 that he specified in what case. But I do -- he did suggest 6 to Mr. Prince that there might be some of his testimony 7 that he might want to review for possible recantation. 8 Q Was that in the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 9 case? 10 A Again, I don't think that was specified. 11 Q Or was it in the Wollersheim case, where 12 Mr. Prince is an expert witness? 13 A Well, are you asking me now or are you asking me 14 what he said then? 15 Q What he said then. 16 A I don't think he specified. 17 Q Did Bob Minton ever tell Jesse Prince that he had 18 to recant testimony in any case before Mr. Rinder would 19 talk to him about settlement? 20 A I don't think we ever got that far in our 21 conversation. 22 Q Did Bob Minton ever tell Jesse Prince in April or 23 May of 2002 that Jesse Prince would have to change any of 24 his prior testimony in any case? 25 A Only what I just said. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1407 1 Q Okay. Let's switch now to the Lisa McPherson 2 Trust. Isn't it true at the first board of directors 3 meeting of the Lisa McPherson Trust, Bob Minton announced 4 that he had gifted $3 million to the Lisa McPherson Trust 5 for it to operate for three years? 6 A I don't recall that he said 3 million. 7 Q What did he say? 8 A I thought that he said he was going to provide a 9 million dollars. 10 Q Did he use the word "provide" or did he use the 11 word "gifted"? 12 A I don't remember what he said. 13 Q Did anyone take minutes of that first board of 14 directors meeting? 15 A Yes, a little bit. 16 Q Who? 17 A Brian Haney. 18 Q Brian Haney held what office in the Lisa 19 McPherson Trust at that time? 20 A He was the secretary on the board. Briefly. 21 Q Now, these meetings that you had with Mr. Rinder 22 and Mr. Rosen, Ms. Yingling, why did you and Bob Minton 23 agree to keep those meetings secret? 24 A Well, Mr. Jonas -- I think I get into 25 attorney/client privilege if I answer. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1408 1 Q He's not your attorney. 2 A Yes, he is. He's my attorney for the -- for the 3 purpose of those settlement talks. 4 THE COURT: Of a settlement talk up in New 5 York? 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. 7 THE COURT: Okay. He's not your attorney 8 now for -- 9 THE WITNESS: He's not my attorney here now; 10 Mr. McGowan is. But for the purpose of that -- 11 THE COURT: Meeting in New York? 12 THE WITNESS: For that situation, he is. 13 For the purposes of that confidentiality agreement, he 14 is. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Who suggested that the meetings with Scientology 17 be kept secret? 18 A Can I answer that without violating -- without 19 waiving my attorney/client privilege? 20 MR. DANDAR: I'm not going to insist there's 21 a waiver of anything. I'm saying she can answer that 22 and there's no waiver. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 A Mr. Jonas. 25 BY MR. DANDAR: KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1409 1 Q Are you aware of any lies that Mr. Minton said in 2 his depositions of September or October of 2001? 3 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, objection. 4 THE COURT: Yes. That's -- I mean, the only 5 thing that I would allow her to testify is about 6 anything Mr. Minton said, when he said "I lied about" 7 this, this, and this or something like that. But I 8 don't know if she's reviewed his deposition. Lord, 9 I've reviewed all the depositions and can't remember. 10 That's why I asked you all to give me a sheet that 11 said when he said this, because I -- too complicated 12 to read all those depositions. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Ms. Brooks -- 15 THE COURT: But if he said to her "I lied in 16 my deposition about" this or this, then I'll let her 17 answer that. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Okay. Did he say that? 20 A No. 21 Q You were present at the deposition taken by 22 Mr. Rosen of Bob Minton on April 8th, 2002, in the case 23 before Judge Baird, correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And in that deposition, you heard Bob Minton tell KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1410 1 at least one lie. Isn't that correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And Bob Minton never came back in to that 4 deposition and recanted that lie, did he? 5 A I believe that's a matter that's being dealt with 6 between Mr. Minton and his attorney. 7 Q Mr. Minton has never filed a recantation 8 affidavit concerning the lie he told on April 8th under 9 oath before Mr. Rosen, did he. 10 A I'm not sure. 11 Q Is that because it doesn't involve the Lisa 12 McPherson case or Ken Dandar? It involves you and him? 13 A I think you'd have to check with his attorney. 14 THE COURT: You can check with Mr. Minton. 15 A Or Mr. Minton. 16 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, if we're going to 17 go a little further, can we take a short comfort 18 break? 19 THE COURT: Sure. It would be a good time. 20 Let's take a short break until 11:30 or 11:32. We'll 21 take ten minutes. And then we'll go to 12:30 or 12:25 22 so we can make that conference call. 23 (A short break was taken.) 24 THE COURT: I gather you're getting close to 25 the end, Mr. Dandar? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1411 1 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 2 THE COURT: All right. 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, isn't it true that, in your 6 experience in Scientology, the RPF is indeed a prison camp? 7 A It's true that I've characterized it that way, 8 but in fact that's not accurate. 9 Q Have you characterized it that way on national 10 television? 11 A Probably. 12 Q So you lied on national television? 13 A I was characterizing it in a fairly dramatic way. 14 Q Is it truthful or is it untruthful? 15 MR. McGOWAN: Your Honor, this is asked and 16 answered. This is about the 60 Minutes show. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q I'd like to play the 60 Minutes show to perhaps 20 refresh your memory. I have it all cued up and ready to 21 go. 22 THE COURT: All right. 23 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead, please. 24 THE REPORTER: For point of clarification, 25 do I need to take it down? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1412 1 THE COURT: Yes. 2 If you can. 3 (The videotape was played as follows:) 4 THE NARRATOR: At the time, Vaughn and Stacy 5 Young were public relations officials in the Church. 6 MS. STACY YOUNG BROOKS: At 4:00 in the 7 morning one night, Ron and I were asleep. And there 8 was a knock on the door, and two security guards were 9 there. And they took me away into the prison camp. 10 THE NARRATOR: Stacy Young says she was 11 assigned to the RPF for disobeying an order to 12 interrogate a fellow staff member. For part of the 13 time, Young says she was in a room on the seventh 14 floor of the Los Angeles Church. Her husband admits 15 he stood by and did nothing to try to get her out. 16 MR. VAUGHN YOUNG: You're being challenged 17 in that, "What are you? Are you disloyal?" You know, 18 "You love your wife more than freedom for the planet? 19 You're going to let people suffer?" And all this crap 20 is dumped on you. What are you supposed to say? 21 MS. STACY YOUNG BROOKS: I didn't see Vaughn 22 for several months. I didn't hear from him. I didn't 23 have any correspondence with him whatsoever. He did 24 nothing to try and rescue me. I felt that my husband 25 should have rescued me. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1413 1 MR. VAUGHN YOUNG: I didn't take her out. I 2 look back at that. I should have just picked her up. 3 I should have just picked her up, and I should have 4 just said, "If anybody touches me, you're dead." 5 (End of videotape.) 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q Were those truthful statements by you and Vaughn 8 in that video clip? 9 A Yes. That's not 60 Minutes, though. 10 Q What is that? 11 A I'm not sure. 12 Q Dateline? 13 A I don't think that was the Dateline show. 14 Q But that was definitely you and Vaughn Young, 15 correct? 16 A Yes. 17 THE COURT: That was on some T.V. show? 18 THE WITNESS: It was on some program. I 19 don't remember which one. 20 THE COURT: Like a news type -- 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: -- news magazine? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 MR. DANDAR: It was 20/20, Judge. I'm 25 sorry. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1414 1 THE COURT: And, I'm sorry, the answer was 2 that those were true statements? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Let me show you a posting that we'll have marked 6 as our next exhibit. 7 MR. DANDAR: In fact, why don't you just go 8 ahead and mark all these, so I don't have to keep 9 coming up and bothering you. 10 Okay. For the record, I have an e-mail from 11 Stacy Brooks dated November 16th, 1998, that we have 12 marked as Exhibit 35 of the plaintiff. 13 And I'll hand it to the Court. 14 THE COURT: Are these originals? I mean, 15 are these the ones that you are just going to give to 16 the clerk, or is that my copy? 17 MR. DANDAR: That's for you. 18 THE COURT: Oh, okay. 19 MR. DANDAR: And a Lisa McPherson Trust 20 Internet site posting as 36. 21 THE COURT: Internet posting, did you say? 22 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 23 MR. LIEBERMAN: Excuse me. 24 THE COURT: Bless you. 25 MR. DANDAR: And another Internet posting is KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1415 1 37. 2 Again, for the Court (handing). And what 3 I'm going to do, Judge, is I'm going to hand the 4 clerk's copy to the witness -- 5 THE COURT: All right. 6 MR. DANDAR: -- and then get it back to the 7 clerk. 8 THE COURT: So these are the originals that 9 are being handed to the witness? 10 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to hand her all 13 three, 35, 36, and 37, in that order. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q And let's look at 35, which is your 16 November 16th, 1998 -- what is this, an e-mail or a post to 17 alt.religion.scientology? 18 A It looks like a post -- 19 Q Okay. 20 A -- to the news group. 21 Q And what is this www.offlines.org that's on the 22 bottom there where we took this from? 23 A I don't know. 24 Q Oh, okay. Do you recognize this as a e-mail or 25 posting that you put up on alt.religion.scientology on KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1416 1 November 16th, 1998? 2 A This is really hard to read, Mr. Dandar. 3 THE COURT: Take your time to read it. 4 If you're going to ask her questions about 5 it. 6 MR. DANDAR: I have four questions about it. 7 THE COURT: Okay. Well, I'll read it too. 8 A Oh, boy. Yes, I'm afraid I wrote that. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q And as you previously testified, your postings 11 are truthful, aren't they? 12 A This was. 13 MR. FUGATE: Is he asking her about this 14 one? 15 THE COURT: He just said, as she's testified 16 previously, her postings were truthful. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q This morning, is this a truthful posting? 19 A You wouldn't be able to call it false. 20 Q It's false? 21 A I said you would not be able to call it false. 22 Q Okay. Now, in the first page, three paragraphs 23 up from the bottom, where it starts off, "Then D.M." -- 24 you're talking about David Miscavige, correct? 25 A Yes. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1417 1 Q And how do you know that there are psychotic 2 people who are, quote, "hot Type IIIs in isolation watches 3 at Marshall Goldblatt's house in Topanga Canyon"? 4 A I heard that. 5 Q Were you in Scientology when you heard that? 6 A Yes, about one person. 7 Q Okay. And was that Cat Morrow? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Did Cat Morrow die? 10 A No. 11 Q Is Cat Morrow still alive, as far as you know? 12 A The last time I saw her, she was. 13 Q When was that? 14 THE COURT: Is that her real name, Cat? 15 THE WITNESS: I think it's a nickname. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q How long was she in an isolation watch in this 19 person's house? 20 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, foundation. She 21 said she heard something. 22 THE COURT: Right. 23 MR. WEINBERG: Is there some personal 24 knowledge? 25 THE COURT: Sustained. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1418 1 BY MR. DANDAR: 2 Q Do you have personal knowledge of how long she 3 was out there? 4 A I don't. 5 Q Now, in the paragraph above where you're quoting 6 from David Miscavige about the Snow White Operation and the 7 FBI raid and the arrest of Mary Sue Hubbard and others in 8 Scientology, is this an actual quote of David Miscavige? 9 A No. This is a theatrical scenario that I was 10 making up. 11 Q Did you hear him say something similar to that? 12 A No. 13 Q Were you making up this theatrical scenario 14 quoting David Miscavige because you knew while you were in 15 the Guardian's Office when this happened that Miscavige did 16 know about Operation Snow White? 17 A Sorry, what? 18 Q Are you making this -- these quotes -- 19 THE COURT: You've got too many questions in 20 there. The question, I think, needs to start, "When 21 you were in the GO office, did David Miscavige know 22 about the Snow White Operation?" 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. He was the one that came 24 in and got rid of the people who had been responsible 25 for it. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1419 1 THE COURT: And I think then the next 2 question would be: Is that why you were making up 3 these theatrical statements, or these statements? 4 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. I was 5 comparing that situation to the one in the Lisa 6 McPherson case. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q And are you trying to relay to the reader who 9 looks at alt.religion.scientology that David Miscavige knew 10 before the FBI raid at Snow White of the operation code 11 named Snow White? 12 A No. 13 THE COURT: Did he? 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Was Mr. Moxon an unindicted co-conspirator by the 17 FBI in that case? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Objection, your Honor. What 19 does this have to do with this hearing? 20 THE COURT: Sustained. What does that -- 21 MR. DANDAR: I want to see how far -- 22 MR. WEINBERG: No, your Honor, could we just 23 focus on what this motion is about and not -- and not 24 the -- 25 THE COURT: I've already read one of her KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1420 1 affidavits wherein she talks about -- well, if it's -- 2 you're going to have to see if you can find the signed 3 affidavits, but where she talked about Mr. Moxon. 4 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 5 THE COURT: And I would sustain Mr. Moxon, 6 to tell you the truth, but -- I guess it is. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Is the purpose of this theatrical presentation of 9 quoting Mr. Miscavige to indicate to the readers -- 10 THE COURT: That has nothing to do with this 11 case -- 12 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 13 THE COURT: -- is what I'm suggesting. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q -- to indicate to the readers on 16 alt.religion.scientology that Mr. Miscavige knew about Lisa 17 McPherson in isolation for the 17 days that she was in 18 isolation? 19 A Well, I was certainly trying to suggest that. 20 Q And is that based upon your personal experience 21 in the guardian's office and the Office of Special Affairs 22 while you were in Scientology? 23 A No. 24 Q What's it based on? 25 A It was based on the strategy that you had for the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1421 1 legal case that I was working on with you and that we were 2 all pushing. 3 Q The truthful strategy that you had created or 4 gave declarations under oath about in other cases, correct? 5 A These were allegations that were being made. 6 They hadn't been proven. 7 Q Those allegations about David Miscavige's 8 knowledge about Lisa McPherson in isolation are based upon 9 your personal experience in Scientology? 10 A No. 11 Q Is it based upon your knowledge of the command 12 lines of Scientology? 13 THE COURT: The what lines? 14 MR. DANDAR: Command lines of Scientology. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Are you familiar with command lines? 17 MR. FUGATE: I don't understand that 18 question. Fan lines. 19 THE COURT: Command. That's what I thought 20 he said too, was fan lines. That's why I asked what 21 he said. It's command lines. 22 MR. WEINBERG: My problem with the question 23 is I'm not sure what it is that he's asking her -- 24 this is based on. Is he asking her whether the thing 25 that she did -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1422 1 THE COURT: I think he's basing it on the 2 relevance of the motion to dismiss filed by the Church 3 that there was no basis to add David Miscavige to this 4 lawsuit, and he's asking her about the command lines 5 and if that's the basis. 6 MR. WEINBERG: It's just the form of the 7 question. I mean, she had said she didn't have 8 personal knowledge, and then he said, well, this 9 strategy, was that based on something. 10 THE COURT: No. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Well, maybe I'm not -- 12 THE COURT: He's asking her about the 13 command lines -- 14 MR. WEINBERG: Okay, I'm sorry. 15 THE COURT: -- to see -- whatever the 16 question was. I think it's relevant. 17 MR. DANDAR: Judge, at the current time this 18 is my only copy. But I do have my copier. I'll make 19 extra copies. But at the time I want to try to hurry 20 through this. 21 But we'll mark this as the next exhibit. 22 It's the command lines of Scientology. 23 THE COURT: I'm not sure why we're arguing 24 about this, to tell you the truth. Here's what I 25 know, I think, from what's been said -- and I think it KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1423 1 can be conceded -- is that the command lines are that 2 Mr. Miscavige is, as the Church has said, the 3 ecclesiastical head of Scientology. Mr. Miscavige is 4 the chairman or the chairman of the board or whatever 5 you call it of RTC. And it's been made clear to me 6 what RTC is. 7 The -- I don't think anybody doubts the 8 command line here. I think the real question and the 9 real issue is whether or not Mr. Miscavige knew what 10 was happening to Lisa McPherson. 11 MR. MOXON: We do, actually, object 12 strenuously to calling this a command line. An 13 ecclesiastical line doesn't mean a command line. 14 There are corporations, just like -- 15 THE COURT: Well, you can call it a command 16 line as far as I'm concerned because corporations have 17 a command line. 18 MR. MOXON: That's what I'm saying. A 19 corporation is different from ecclesiastical lines. 20 Utterly. 21 THE COURT: Well, there's no question about 22 that. It was you all who wanted me to call David 23 Miscavige the ecclesiastical leader, as opposed to the 24 chairman of the board. So we'll go ahead and make 25 that distinction. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1424 1 Now, David Miscavige is the head of RTC, 2 right? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, as far as I 4 know. 5 THE COURT: That's a corporation. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: So then he's the head of the 8 corporate structure as well as the ecclesiastical 9 head. Is that right? 10 THE WITNESS: Well, my understanding is, to 11 the degree that RTC is the most senior corporate 12 entity, that would make him senior -- the most senior 13 corporate entity. 14 THE COURT: And he's either captain or 15 commander of the Sea Org. And I've heard about what 16 the Sea Org is. This is Mr. Miscavige, correct? 17 THE WITNESS: Correct. He's -- 18 THE COURT: Which is kind of -- not a 19 corporation, but it's whatever it is as you've 20 described it as far as -- you've told us what the Sea 21 Org is. 22 THE WITNESS: Correct. 23 THE COURT: So whether it's the corporate 24 command or whether it's the ecclesiastical authority 25 or whether it's the Sea Org, it is your testimony that KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1425 1 David Miscavige is the head of all of those. Is that 2 correct? 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: So your objection is overruled, 5 Counselor. 6 BY MR. DANDAR: 7 Q And this document 37 I'll show the witness -- 8 38 -- is the publication, the command channels of 9 Scientology, correct? 10 MR. WEINBERG: May we take a look at it? 11 MR. DANDAR: I don't have a copy for now. 12 MR. WEINBERG: What's the exhibit number? 13 MR. DANDAR: 38. 14 THE COURT: As I said, I don't know why 15 we're going through that, because I don't think 16 there's any dispute about that. If there is, I better 17 find out what it is, because I'm assuming that this is 18 all fairly well known. 19 The issue is whether or not David Miscavige 20 in the Lisa McPherson matter would have been kept 21 informed and therefore would have known, would have 22 been on top of it, would have been giving directions 23 down the line to the case supervisor or the case -- 24 whatever Mr. Kartuzinski was. 25 MR. FUGATE: That's the allegation. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1426 1 THE COURT: Well, that's the allegation, the 2 ultimate allegation. 3 But in adding him as a party, it would be 4 whether or not he had some, as Sea Org, some head, 5 some knowledge, period, whatever the knowledge. 6 MR. WEINBERG: I think the allegation was is 7 that he did order that, and that's what we've really 8 focused on as part of our motion. 9 THE COURT: Well, I understand that's the 10 motion to dismiss. But on the -- the notice of filing 11 affidavit to add parties, I haven't really had a 12 chance to study that to see whether that's the 13 allegation that he ordered her to die or whether it 14 just -- he's allowed to ask him as a party. 15 MR. WEINBERG: That was part of it. 16 THE COURT: Okay. 17 BY MR. DANDAR: 18 Q All right. So do you recognize that publication? 19 A Basically. 20 Q And in that publication, can you turn to the page 21 where it talks about reporting up the line? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Could we at least look at it 23 and see what she's looking at? 24 MR. DANDAR: I'm sure Mr. Moxon is well 25 acquainted -- KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1427 1 MR. WEINBERG: I'm sorry, if you're going to 2 ask her questions about it -- 3 THE COURT: Yes, let them take a look at it. 4 MR. DANDAR: I said I would make a copy. I 5 had four. Now I only have one. 6 MR. MOXON: Where are the other three? 7 MR. DANDAR: I don't know. Could I ask 8 other questions while they're looking at that? 9 THE COURT: Sure. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Okay. Go back to your November 16th, '98, 12 e-mail. Turn to the second page -- 13 MR. WEINBERG: Which exhibit number is that? 14 THE WITNESS: 35. 15 MR. DANDAR: 35. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q And read out loud, please, the second paragraph. 18 Starts out with "But here is what." 19 A "But here is what I have to say to you, D.M." -- 20 D.M., that's capital D, capital M -- "Jesse and I are both 21 going to testify in the McPherson trial. We did isolation 22 watches together out at INT, remember? Remember Teresa, 23 D.M.? Remember how you were overseeing her handling on a 24 daily basis, you and Ray, to make sure that she didn't 25 become PR flap?" KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1428 1 Q Now, when you talk about D.M., this is David 2 Miscavige, correct? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And when you talk about Ray, that's Ray Mithoff, 5 M-I-T-H-O-F-F, correct? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And who is Teresa? 8 A She was the woman that we were watching. 9 Q She's the woman that was in the shed? 10 A She was the woman we were doing an isolation 11 watch on. 12 Q Okay. And that was you and Jesse Prince, 13 correct? 14 A Yes, and others. 15 THE COURT: Is an isolation watch -- I mean, 16 I'm not real sure, but I need to make sure in my own 17 mind. But is an isolation watch part of an 18 introspection rundown? 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's zero-zero. 20 THE COURT: Okay. 21 THE WITNESS: I think. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q And Teresa, who is the subject of an isolation 24 watch that you're referring to in this posting, certainly 25 was not free to come out of this shed and leave the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1429 1 property of the Church of Scientology if she wanted to, was 2 she? 3 A I believe we testified -- 4 THE COURT: I think she did. That was asked 5 and answered, and I think she said yes, she was. I 6 don't know what she said about out of the shed, but I 7 think she said she could leave if she had wanted. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q Are you going to stick by that testimony? 10 A In fact she did leave. 11 Q Because she wanted to? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Or because she was given permission to leave? 14 A Well, I wasn't there in the room, but I know that 15 she wanted to leave. 16 Q Did you and Jesse Prince have to force-feed her? 17 A I never actually did the force-feeding with 18 Jesse. But I did. 19 Q Okay. Did you force-feed her? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Did you have -- force water down her? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And did you force water down her because you 24 noticed that she was becoming dehydrated? 25 A No. We just had a schedule when we were supposed KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1430 1 to make sure she drank and ate. 2 Q Did she spit food out? 3 A I don't recall that she did that. 4 Q Did she bark like a dog? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Did she run away up a hill where the guards had 7 to go chase her? 8 A Not -- not when I was watching her. 9 Q Did Jesse tell you that? 10 A No. 11 Q Okay. Read the next paragraph. 12 THE COURT: Well, I want to go back to this 13 paragraph. 14 MR. DANDAR: I do too. 15 THE COURT: Just a moment, Counselor. 16 You stated in this posting, "Remember how 17 you were -- you were," this is this D.M., David 18 Miscavige, "overseeing her handling on a daily basis, 19 you and Ray, to be sure, she didn't become a PR flap." 20 Is that accurate? 21 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I had no knowledge 22 that they were overseeing this at all. It was -- it 23 was an innuendo I was making. 24 THE COURT: Did you believe it? I guess 25 there's a difference between thinking something and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1431 1 knowing something. Is this something that you thought 2 that you had proof of? 3 THE WITNESS: No, not really. It was 4 something -- 5 THE COURT: So it was untrue. 6 THE WITNESS: It was a theory we had. I'm 7 just saying we didn't have any reason to think -- we 8 didn't have any evidence -- I didn't have any evidence 9 when I was doing this that they were overseeing it on 10 a daily basis. 11 BY MR. DANDAR: 12 Q Well, you say here that they were overseeing her 13 handling on a daily basis. 14 A Well, if you read the sentence carefully, I say, 15 "Remember how you were overseeing her handling on a daily 16 basis, you and Ray, to make sure she didn't become a PR 17 flap?" I'm not saying that they were overseeing it on a 18 daily basis. I'm asking him if he remembers it. 19 Q Did you have to write reports about this 20 isolation watch? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And did you write reports every day that you were 23 there? 24 A We would have had to write a report for each -- 25 Q Shift? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1432 1 A Shift. 2 Q And when you wrote those reports for each shift, 3 who did you give them to? 4 A They were turned in to the person who was -- they 5 were turned in to a person who would then give them to the 6 CS. 7 Q Who was the CS? 8 A I don't know, actually. 9 Q And do you know if they went beyond the CS? 10 A I don't. 11 Q Do you know if they went to D.M. or Ray Mithoff? 12 A I don't. 13 THE COURT: I'm sorry, did you say "I 14 don't"? 15 THE WITNESS: I don't. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Well, is this the first thing you ever said on a 18 posting on the Internet that you believed to be untrue? 19 A I was trying to make it clear that I wasn't 20 saying it because I believed it to be true or untrue. I 21 was saying it because it was -- it was what we were trying 22 to pursue as a legal strategy in this case. 23 Q Well, you're not going to -- it's not your 24 testimony I told you to post this on the Internet, is it? 25 A No. KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1433 1 Q Okay. And this has nothing to do with Lisa 2 McPherson, this Teresa person who was on an isolation 3 watch, does it? 4 A It has to do with it to the degree that I was 5 accusing Mr. Miscavige and Mr. Mithoff of being in on the 6 Lisa McPherson handling and I was making a pretty obvious 7 comparison to this particular situation and the one that 8 involved Lisa. 9 Q How would Teresa become a PR flap, a public 10 relations flap, on the isolation watch? 11 A Well, if she went out and started talking about 12 being a Scientologist. 13 Q So if a Scientologist goes out into the public 14 and talks about being a Scientologist, that is a public 15 relations flap? 16 A No, when she's barking like a dog and stuff like 17 that. 18 THE COURT: You mean if she went out and 19 talked about the introspection rundown, what happened 20 there? 21 THE WITNESS: No. What I meant -- if she 22 went out in that sort of shape and it was known that 23 she was a Scientologist. 24 BY MR. DANDAR: 25 Q Why is she kept in a wooden shed rather than in a KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1434 1 nice, comfortable, air-conditioned hotel room? 2 A Okay. First of all, she wasn't kept in a wooden 3 shed. She -- that was one of the places where she would 4 take naps. I don't believe that she was -- as a matter of 5 fact, I think she was later living in a house. 6 Q While you and Jesse Prince were involved in the 7 isolation watch of Teresa in the desert in California, 8 isn't it true that she spent 24 hours a day in this wooden 9 shed? 10 A Well, not when I was -- that's not true when I 11 was watching her. 12 Q Okay. Where was she at when you were watching 13 her? 14 A There was a shed where she was staying for at 15 least a few days, but I mean, she was coming and going. We 16 were going outside, you know. She wasn't kept inside the 17 shed. 18 But then I believe she was moved to a house. 19 Q Where? 20 A Out in Happy Valley. 21 Q That's another Scientology property? 22 A Yes. 23 Q That's a compound, fenced in? 24 A No. 25 Q Not fenced in? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1435 1 A (Shook head negatively.) It wasn't then. 2 Q What was the purpose of her staying out in the 3 shed? The unair-conditioned shed. 4 MR. FUGATE: Excuse me, your Honor. If she 5 doesn't have personal knowledge of that, I object. 6 There's no foundation. 7 THE COURT: She said she was there for three 8 days. 9 MR. FUGATE: He said what was the purpose of 10 her being there, and I'm asking for her personal 11 knowledge. 12 THE COURT: All right. Well, she was part 13 of the watch. I would think she might know. 14 MR. FUGATE: I understood her to say she 15 watched her in a house, but I won't interfere, Judge. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Why was she in a shed, an unair-conditioned shed, 18 in the desert for three days? 19 A She was being isolated, and that was a place 20 where nobody else was, as far as I understood why. 21 Q Is that because she was making a lot of noise? 22 A No. I don't think that's why. 23 Q Now, the next paragraph down talks about 24 Scientology's investigators Peter Franks and David Lee and 25 other PIs going after Bob Minton's friend Jeff Schmitt in KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1436 1 England. Do you see that? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Do you have personal knowledge of that, that that 4 was happening, they were turning his records over to Inland 5 Revenue Service in England to get him in trouble for not 6 paying taxes? 7 A First of all, it doesn't say Jeff Schmitt, 8 actually, but I think that's who I was referring to. We 9 had reason to believe that that's what they were trying to 10 do. 11 Q And that's because that's what Jeff Schmitt told 12 Bob Minton on the phone, correct? 13 A Jeff Schmitt told him that he was having trouble 14 with the Inland Revenue Service, and as I recall, it was 15 our feeling that that was because of the Scientology 16 private investigators. 17 Q And even back in '98, they were trying to get 18 Jesse Prince arrested? The Church of Scientology was 19 trying to get Jesse Prince arrested? 20 A I'm not sure what I was talking about there. 21 Q Well, that's what you say though, correct -- 22 A Yes. 23 Q -- to get Jesse arrested? 24 A Yes. 25 Q All right. Read out loud the last -- or, the KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1437 1 next paragraph, which is the last that I'm going to ask you 2 about. 3 A "But the fact remains"? 4 Q Yes. 5 A "But the fact remains that you are the managing 6 agency for the Church of Scientology Flag Service 7 Organization, and you are the one responsible for Lisa's 8 death -- you. I'll be testifying about you, D.M., and so 9 will Jesse." 10 Q Now, when you posted that, Ms. Brooks, was that a 11 true statement? 12 MR. WEINBERG: Which one? 13 MR. DANDAR: What she just read. 14 THE COURT: The one she just read. 15 MR. WEINBERG: The whole thing. 16 THE COURT: The one she just read. 17 A I don't know. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q So you were going to testify about something that 20 you didn't know. Is that what you're saying? 21 A That's not what it says, Mr. Dandar. 22 Q No. My question to you was this paragraph that 23 you just read out loud, is that paragraph, at the time you 24 made it, a truthful statement? 25 A At the time I made it, it was a statement that I KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1438 1 felt that I could make. 2 Q And at that time, based upon your expert -- 3 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. You felt 4 you could make because you thought it was true? 5 THE WITNESS: I didn't think it was false, 6 your Honor. 7 THE COURT: All right. 8 MR. DANDAR: Okay. Let's go to the next 9 exhibit, which is Exhibit No. 36. 10 And, Judge, do you have a copy of that? 11 THE COURT: Yes, you did give me a copy, I 12 believe. 13 MR. DANDAR: Looks like this. 14 THE COURT: Yes, I have it. 15 MR. DANDAR: And do you have a copy, 16 Mr. Weinberg? 17 MR. WEINBERG: I believe they do. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Ms. Brooks, do you recognize this? 20 A I think it's a page from a newsletter that was 21 published from the Lisa McPherson Trust. 22 Q Okay. And were you the editor of that 23 newsletter? 24 A No. 25 Q Who was? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1439 1 A Karen Case. 2 Q Does she still work for you? 3 A Now? 4 Q Yes. 5 A No. 6 Q Okay. In this newsletter, next to this picture 7 of a building of some kind -- is that supposed to be a 8 picture of something? 9 A I don't really know. 10 Q All right. 11 THE COURT: Doesn't it look like that 12 picture I just saw on the screen? 13 MR. DANDAR: It could be. 14 THE WITNESS: Oh. 15 MR. DANDAR: I didn't want to put words in 16 her mouth. 17 THE WITNESS: It could be, supposed to be or 18 could be a picture of the complex. 19 THE COURT: That's what I thought it was. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Of the Church of Scientology in California? 22 A Yes. 23 Q Okay. She is quoting you. Is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q On June 14th, 2000, where did that quote come KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1440 1 from? 2 A I think I made it up to fit that space. 3 Q Read it out loud, please. 4 A "I don't think there is any question that 5 Scientology brought pressure to bear on medical examiner 6 Joan Wood to change the autopsy report concerning the cause 7 of Lisa McPherson's death. It is a tragedy of justice that 8 the criminal case has been dismissed, but it doesn't change 9 the fact that Lisa McPherson died a horrible, gruesome 10 death while being held at the Fort Harrison Hotel. If 11 Scientology had taken her to a hospital where she could get 12 proper medical care, Lisa would be alive today. The Lisa 13 McPherson Trust continues to get calls every single day 14 from people who have been victimized by Scientology, and we 15 will go on helping these people in every way we possibly 16 can." 17 Q Now, when you made that statement on June 14th, 18 2000, you firmly believed that that statement was true. Is 19 that right? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Do you believe that's true today? 22 A I'm not so sure anymore. 23 Q That's after you've met so many times with 24 Mr. Rinder, Yingling, and Rosen. You now are not sure 25 about your statement? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1441 1 A No, Mr. Dandar. It's after quite a bit of 2 experience with this particular litigation and finding out 3 that it's not as noble of a cause as a lot of people think. 4 Q Ms. Brooks, isn't it true that since the Lisa 5 McPherson Trust was formed in 1999 until it was dissolved 6 in the year 2001, you repeatedly told people at the Lisa 7 McPherson Trust that Lisa McPherson was intentionally left 8 to die in her isolation watch? 9 A I don't recall. 10 Q Turn to Exhibit 37. What is this? 11 A This looks like -- 12 MR. FUGATE: Before we leave that, my copy 13 of the last 36 has April 22nd, 1998, on it. Is 14 that -- that can't be correct. 15 THE COURT: Where? I'm sorry, Mr. Fugate. 16 Where are you looking at? 17 MR. FUGATE: The bottom of -- says 18 April 22nd, 1998. 19 MR. DANDAR: That's from another document. 20 That doesn't go with what we're about to look at. 21 Let me ask the witness that. 22 BY MR. DANDAR: 23 Q The handwriting at the bottom of Exhibit 37, that 24 doesn't go with the printed page, does it? See this? 25 A Oh. Well, what else does it go with then? KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1442 1 THE COURT: I don't know what it says. I 2 can't read it. 3 MR. FUGATE: Mine just says April 22nd, 4 1998. 5 THE COURT: Oh, April, okay. 6 MR. FUGATE: And I didn't know if we dated 7 this or what. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q That's not a correct date for this particular 10 print, is it. 11 A It wouldn't be. 12 Q Right. So this comes from the Web site, correct? 13 A I don't know where you got it. 14 Q Do you recognize it? 15 A Well, I recognize that it's part of a page from 16 our newsletter. 17 Q Okay. All right. And are the -- the bios of 18 you, Jesse, Karen Case, Mark Bunker accurate? 19 A Well, let me read what it says. 20 As far as I know. 21 Q Okay. That's all my questions for that. Now -- 22 THE WITNESS: We're done with this? 23 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Let me give it back to 24 the clerk before I forget it. 25 So I'm handing back to the clerk 35, 36, and KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1443 1 37. 2 THE COURT: I have something up here. Is 3 this just a duplicate of -- yes, that's just a 4 duplicate. Okay. 5 BY MR. DANDAR: 6 Q Have you ever heard Bob Minton in the years that 7 you've known him talk about his concern with tax evasion? 8 A I don't believe so. 9 Q Did you ever witness Bob Minton in one of these 10 statements of emotional breakdown -- I don't know what the 11 right word is -- but expressing to others about his 12 concerns about tax evasion? 13 A Not that I recall. 14 Q Now, Ms. Brooks, what happens if the Court, this 15 Court right here, doesn't dismiss the wrongful death case? 16 What happens to your negotiations with the Church of 17 Scientology? 18 A Well, I've set the record straight about my 19 testimony. 20 Q What do you expect them to do? 21 A I would assume that we'll continue. 22 Q Continue what? 23 A With settlement talks. 24 THE COURT: In other words, I gather from 25 your testimony, the settlement talks are on hold until KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1444 1 this "setting the record straight" is over. Is 2 that -- 3 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, that's my 4 understanding. 5 THE COURT: I think that's what you 6 testified to. 7 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 8 BY MR. DANDAR: 9 Q So if your testimony and Mr. Minton's succeed in 10 getting the case dismissed or Ken Dandar disqualified, it's 11 your testimony today that you still get to settle with -- 12 enter settlement negotiations with the Church of 13 Scientology? 14 A I would assume so. 15 Q Were you told that? 16 A I think I told you what I was told, that we could 17 just set the record straight. 18 Q So it's just an assumption on your part that, as 19 long as you came and testified, you fulfilled your part of 20 the bargain and now you can settle with Scientology? 21 A As a matter of fact, there wasn't any talk about 22 testifying. 23 Q You thought that you would be able to do all this 24 just with an affidavit? 25 A I didn't know what would be required. I'm just KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1445 1 saying that it wasn't ever specified. 2 THE COURT: In any event, the settlement 3 discussions are on hold until you, quote, "set the 4 record straight." After that, you expect to go back 5 to settlement negotiations. 6 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: If they pull out -- you don't 8 know whether they will or they won't. You expect to 9 go back to the table and discuss settlement. 10 THE WITNESS: Yes. 11 THE COURT: And you expect that they will 12 too. 13 THE WITNESS: Yes. And in any case, if they 14 do pull out, at least I will have taken myself out of 15 legal harm's way. 16 THE COURT: Right. But your belief is that 17 if you set the record straight that you can then sit 18 down with whomever and discuss settling everything -- 19 THE WITNESS: Whatever else. 20 THE COURT: -- and discussing it. 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. Yes, your Honor. 22 MR. DANDAR: That's all the questions I 23 have. Move into evidence Exhibits 33 through 38. 24 THE COURT: I don't know what -- I know what 25 35, 36, and 37 are. I don't know what -- one of KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1446 1 them -- 34 is not in evidence because it never could 2 be authenticated. So the others I believe have been 3 authenticated. So but for 34 -- 4 MR. FUGATE: And 38. 5 MR. McGOWAN: 38, I think. 6 MR. FUGATE: There weren't any questions. 7 THE COURT: What is it? 8 MR. FUGATE: That's the command channels. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 38 is not in evidence. 10 MR. DANDAR: I forgot to ask questions about 11 it, I'm sorry. Let me just ask a few questions then. 12 MR. LIEBERMAN: Too late. 13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, do you have the command 14 channels? 15 MR. MOXON: He's rested, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: I'm going to let him ask these 17 two questions, and that will deter recross. 18 MR. DANDAR: Who has 38? 19 THE COURT: Oh, that's right, it was because 20 you all asked to look at it and we deferred it. 21 BY MR. DANDAR: 22 Q Do you recognize -- have you seen the copy or the 23 original of that document in your years of Scientology? 24 A Well, I haven't had a chance to read the whole 25 thing, but I'm assuming it's a copy of the same thing I've KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1447 1 seen. 2 Q All right. Turn to page 48, please. 3 MR. MOXON: The copy that he gave us did not 4 have 48 pages. 5 THE WITNESS: Yes. I'm not seeing a 6 page 48. 7 BY MR. DANDAR: 8 Q Okay. 9 A Why don't you just show me which page you want. 10 Q All right. Well, I won't be able to ask you that 11 question then. 12 THE COURT: Just keep it, look through it, 13 and then when they're done, I expect they might have a 14 few questions on redirect. 15 BY MR. DANDAR: 16 Q Do you recall seeing a newsletter -- 17 THE COURT: I think you'll have some time to 18 look at it. 19 MR. DANDAR: I will. 20 BY MR. DANDAR: 21 Q Do you recall seeing a newsletter by RTC that if 22 someone is a Type III psychotic person that person needs to 23 be reported down the lines through RTC? 24 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, I think that's 25 been asked and answered, but also that exceeds the two KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1448 1 questions. 2 THE COURT: That's true. Save it. 3 You know what? It's a quarter after, and I 4 don't think you're going to be able to complete your 5 redirect in 10 minutes, are you, Counselor? 6 MR. FUGATE: You know me well. No, I 7 cannot, Judge. 8 THE COURT: Even -- even I will say you 9 might have some need to do some redirect. So can we 10 stop now for lunch? 11 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 12 THE COURT: Let's do that. Let's go from 13 12:15 to 1:30, and that'll give me a chance to make my 14 call, get on my conference call, eat. And we'll see 15 you back at 1:30, and we'll start at that time. 16 THE BAILIFF: All rise. Court stands in 17 recess until 1:30 by the courtroom clock. 18 THE COURT: And, Mr. Dandar, if you find 19 whatever it is you want, you know, in that document, 20 I'll let you ask your question after lunch. 21 MR. DANDAR: All right. Thank you. 22 THE COURT: If not, as I said, you'll have 23 time to find it. 24 (A luncheon recess was taken.) 25 ____________________________________ KANABAY COURT REPORTERS Volume 10, Page 1449 1 STATE OF FLORIDA 2 COUNTY OF PINELLAS 3 I, Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, Registered Diplomate 4 Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did 5 stenographically report the foregoing proceedings and that 6 the transcript is a true record. 7 WITNESS MY HAND this 16th day of May, 2002, at 8 St. Petersburg, Pinellas County, Florida. 9 10 _________________________________ Debra S. (Laughbaum) Turner, RDR 11 Court Reporter 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kanabay Court Reporters; Serving West Central Florida Pinellas (727)821-3320 Hillsborough (813)224-9500 Tampa Airport Marriott Deposition Suite (813)224-9500 1450 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA CASE NO. 00-5682-CI-11 2 3 4 DELL LIEBREICH, as Personal 5 Representative of the ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, 6 7 Plaintiff, 8 vs. VOLUME 11 9 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, JANIS 10 JOHNSON, ALAIN KARTUZINSKI and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 11 Defendants. 12 _______________________________________/ 13 14 15 PROCEEDINGS: Defendants' Omnibus Motion for Terminating Sanctions and Other Relief. 16 DATE: May 16, 2002. Afternoon Session. 17 PLACE: Courtroom B, Judicial Building 18 St. Petersburg, Florida. 19 BEFORE: Honorable Susan F. Schaeffer, Circuit Judge. 20 REPORTED BY: Lynne J. Ide, RMR. 21 Deputy Official Court Reporter, Sixth Judicial Circuit of Florida. 22 23 24 25 1451 1 APPEARANCES: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR DANDAR & DANDAR 3 5340 West Kennedy Blvd., Suite 201 Tampa, FL 33602 4 Attorney for Plaintiff. 5 MR. LUKE CHARLES LIROT LUKE CHARLES LIROT, PA 6 112 N East Street, Street, Suite B Tampa, FL 33602-4108 7 Attorney for Plaintiff. 8 MR. KENDRICK MOXON MOXON & KOBRIN 9 1100 Cleveland Street, Suite 900 Clearwater, FL 33755 10 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization. 11 12 MR. LEE FUGATE and MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. and 13 ZUCKERMAN, SPAEDER 101 E. Kennedy Blvd, Suite 1200 14 Tampa, FL 33602-5147 Attorneys for Church of Scientology Flag Service 15 Organization. 16 MR. ERIC M. LIEBERMAN 17 RABINOWITZ, BOUDIN, STANDARD 740 Broadway at Astor Place 18 New York, NY 10003-9518 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 19 Organization. 20 21 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG 740 Broadway, Fifth Floor 22 New York, New York 10003 Attorney for Church of Scientology Flag Service 23 Organization. 24 25 1452 1 APPEARANCES: (Continued) 2 3 MR. BRUCE HOWIE 5720 Central Avenue 4 St. Petersburg, Florida. Attorney for Robert Minton. 5 6 MR. THOMAS H. MCGOWAN MCGOWAN & SUAREZ, LLP 7 150 2nd Avenue North, Suite 870 St. Petersburg, FL 33701-3381 8 Attorney for Stacy Brooks. 9 10 ALSO PRESENT: 11 Ms. Donna West Mr. Rick Spector 12 Ms. Lara Cartwright Ms. Sarah Heller 13 Mr. Ben Shaw Mr. Brian Asay 14 Ms. Patricia Greenway 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1453 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I had just two more 2 exhibits to identify, then I'll be done. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. DANDAR: 5 Q Ms. Brooks, I handed you Plaintiff's Exhibit 39. 6 MR. DANDAR: And, Judge, I handed up to you 39 7 and 40, which I'm going to hand her. 8 THE COURT: Okay. These are my copies? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 10 BY MR. DANDAR: 11 Q Can you identify 39? 12 MR. FUGATE: Judge, 39, is that what appears to 13 be a magazine article? 14 MR. DANDAR: No. 15 MR. FUGATE: Oh. 16 MR. DANDAR: E-Mail. 17 MR. FUGATE: Sorry. I'll reserve. 18 BY MR. DANDAR: 19 Q Is that your E-Mail? Or is that a posting? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Which one is it? A posting? 22 A A posting. 23 Q Is that posted by you to alt.religion.Scientology? 24 A Yes. 25 Q The date of this is August 10 of '98? 1454 1 A Yes. 2 Q And at that time, Jesse Prince, when you talk 3 about Jesse Prince in this posting, you are talking about 4 him coming to work for FACTNet. Is that correct? 5 A Well, was actually coming to work for Bob Minton. 6 Q Was that at FACTNet? 7 A Well, that was one of the things he did. He also 8 did other work. 9 Q What other work? 10 A Mmm, he went out and did some work with 11 Mr. Leipold. 12 Q Okay. Could you turn to Page 1 and read out loud 13 the last paragraph which starts with, "It is obvious --" 14 A "It is obvious to me that this latest vicious 15 attack is because of Jesse Prince. I have known Jesse since 16 1976. He and I were good friends when we were in the Sea 17 Org and he was also a good friend of Vaughn's. Jesse and I 18 were friends because he never lost his sense of humanity, 19 even in his darkest hours as a senior executive in RTC. He 20 never crossed that final threshold like people like Marty 21 Rathbun had done. He never totally sold out to Miscavige. 22 He never became a Nazi. He paid dearly for refusing to 23 kowtow to DM, as did Vaughn and I. They broke him badly and 24 for five years after he finally escaped, Jesse was virtually 25 in hiding." 1455 1 Q Like your other postings to 2 alt.religion.Scientology, is that a truthful statement? 3 A As I said earlier, yes. It wasn't false. 4 Q And the bottom of Page 2, could you read the last 5 sentence which starts with, "But Jesse --" 6 A "But Jesse felt strongly that he has a 7 responsibility --" 8 THE COURT: Wait, I can't find where you are 9 reading. "But --" 10 MR. DANDAR: Right here at the bottom of 11 Page 2. 12 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. 13 BY MR. DANDAR: 14 Q Go ahead. 15 A "But Jesse felt strongly that he has a 16 responsibility to tell the world what he knows. And he 17 wasn't frightened by Scientology's intimidation and 18 harassment tactics." 19 Q I'm sorry. Read the next sentence. 20 A "He and I teamed up that weekend in Columbus and 21 he has been working with Bob, Lawrence, Vaughn and I ever 22 since." 23 Q Turn to Page 3 and read the middle paragraph which 24 starts out by saying, "What I will say." 25 A "What I will say, though, is I have never seen 1456 1 Scientology as frightened as they have been in the past 2 several weeks since they discovered that Jesse Prince, Bob 3 Minton, Lawrence Wollersheim and Vaughn Young --" oh, and I 4 "-- all joined forces to expose them. There are a few other 5 key former members about to join us. And I can assure you, 6 when they do, Scientology's attacks on all of us will become 7 more vicious than ever." 8 Q Thank you. Turn to Exhibit 40. 9 A Uh-huh? 10 MR. FUGATE: My objection, if I may, on Exhibit 11 40 is, A, I can't read it. The print is too small. 12 B, I don't see a date on it, so I don't know that I 13 could make much more of an objection than that. 14 THE COURT: As far as your not being able to 15 read it, I can, so you'll have to get some better 16 glasses. As far as not having a date on it -- 17 MR. FUGATE: Oh, you have a different version 18 than I do. I see why. Mine is a reduced version. 19 THE WITNESS: Mine is, too. That is much 20 better. I can't read mine, either. 21 THE COURT: Okay. Well, this one -- is this -- 22 MR. DANDAR: That is for you, Judge. But if 23 you want the witness to look at that, and we can 24 make copies like that again. 25 THE COURT: Let me look and see if I see a 1457 1 date. 2 MR. DANDAR: I have the original. And the 3 original says, "1997 RTC copyright." 4 THE WITNESS: Thank you, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: You bet. 6 MR. DANDAR: Would you like to look at the 7 original while she's looking at that? 8 THE COURT: Sure. 9 BY MR. DANDAR: 10 Q Do you recognize this as an official publication 11 of RTC? 12 A Well, it looks like -- it looks like one. 13 Q Would you like to look at the original? Would 14 that help you better? 15 A That looks more like one. 16 Q Okay. I'll hand this back to the judge then. 17 A Yes. 18 Q How often -- when you were in Scientology, how 19 often did RTC put out a newsletter? 20 A I never saw one. 21 Q All right. On the back of that, at the top, and 22 if you go to the top middle column and start reading the 23 last paragraph and continue on to the third column, read 24 that out loud. 25 MR. FUGATE: What page? Could I just see -- 1458 1 may I approach the witness? Because here is what my 2 problem is, just so you don't think I'm fooling with 3 the Court. 4 THE COURT: No, I didn't think you were 5 fooling. 6 MR. FUGATE: I can't see -- 7 MR. DANDAR: I'll get you a better copy. 8 THE COURT: I actually can read that, too, so 9 maybe you just need to go to the eye doctor. 10 MR. FUGATE: All right. 11 THE COURT: Notice I have glasses. And you 12 don't. Yet. 13 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, Judge. I'm getting 14 old. 15 THE COURT: That's it. 16 BY MR. DANDAR: 17 Q Go ahead. 18 A "Read through the list and become familiar with 19 the different matters of concern so you can easily recognize 20 them. Keep the list on hand for future reference. You must 21 inform RTC if you encounter any such situations, regardless 22 of any other action taken. If you wish to report a 23 situation and are not sure whether RTC should be informed, 24 write the report to your ethics section and send a copy to 25 RTC. You may also write the RTC reports officer and request 1459 1 a copy of the knowledge reports policy letter." 2 Q Now, in the far right-hand column of the 3 situations entitled -- under ethics, does there appear to be 4 a listing for PTS Type III? 5 A Yes. 6 Q Does that mean PTS Type III people need to be 7 reported to RTC? 8 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would object to this 9 as being outside of her knowledge. This is a '97 10 publication. 11 THE COURT: That is true. I think the article 12 speaks for itself. If she has no more knowledge 13 than what it says, she can be asked there. 14 BY MR. DANDAR: 15 Q Okay. Do you have more knowledge than what it 16 says there? 17 A No. 18 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll keep the original, 19 unless you want it. 20 THE WITNESS: You can take that one. 21 MR. DANDAR: And the copy that Mr. Fugate 22 couldn't read is marked as an exhibit. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 MR. DANDAR: And I have no other questions. 25 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Fugate. 1460 1 MR. FUGATE: Thank you, your Honor. 2 THE COURT: I'm sorry, could I ask one 3 question. D/inspector, is that deputy inspector? 4 THE WITNESS: Deputy. 5 THE COURT: General office? 6 THE WITNESS: Deputy inspector, general office. 7 Yes. 8 Excuse me, but do you need this? 9 MR. DANDAR: Yes. Thank you. And the witness 10 just handed me the clerk's Exhibit 39. I'm handing 11 it to the clerk. 12 THE COURT: All right. 13 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed? 14 THE COURT: You may, indeed. 15 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Good afternoon, it seems like a long time ago 18 since I was here. 19 A Good to see you again. 20 Q I'm going to try to shorten this up as much as I 21 can and I'm going to try to ask a couple of housekeeping 22 matters and I'm try to keep track of things. 23 MR. FUGATE: Sometimes, Judge, I'll just have 24 to try to dig out an exhibit. I was trying to do 25 that over lunch and they are a little confused. 1461 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Is it your testimony, Ms. Brooks, that Mr. Howie 3 is the person that started the settlement process that leads 4 us to where we are, at least, today? 5 A Yes, it is. 6 Q And the meetings that took place in New York on 7 the 28th and 29th that we've heard about in March, who 8 initiated the calls that set those into motion? Do you 9 recall? 10 A Mr. Minton, I think. 11 Q Mr. Minton? 12 A I think so. 13 Q Now, one of the demands or the requests that you 14 made that -- that you and Mr. Minton made at the meetings, 15 correct me if I'm wrong, was that you wanted to -- I'm 16 saying you collectively, both of you. 17 MR. FUGATE: Judge, if there is a problem, 18 you'll correct me, I guess. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q But that you wanted to continue or stop the 21 contempt proceedings that were scheduled in front of Judge 22 Baird and Judge Schaeffer. Is that one of the requests or 23 demands that were made? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And that demand -- how was that demand met? 1462 1 A Rudely, I thought. 2 Q And what was the response? 3 A Well, the response was from Mr. Rosen. And he 4 said, "Absolutely not. We will not stop any of our ongoing 5 proceedings." 6 Q And so essentially when you left those meetings, 7 and I don't want to go back through it and rehash those, 8 believe me, but when you left those meetings, there was no 9 deal, no settlement, no nothing, and the proceedings that 10 were scheduled in Pinellas County were still scheduled to go 11 forward. Is that correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And then we've heard about the -- the contempt 14 proceeding in front of Judge Schaeffer on April 5. My 15 question to you would be the next day, if I listened to the 16 testimony correctly, that you met with Mr. Rinder and 17 Ms. Yingling, was on April 6. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. On that Saturday. 19 Q And there were a series of questions about that as 20 to did you have counsel, was counsel present, et cetera. 21 And I'm going to ask you to take a look at a letter -- 22 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I would like to give that 23 to you. 24 THE COURT: Is this the defendant's next in 25 number? 1463 1 MR. FUGATE: Yes, it will be. 2 THE COURT: And Madam Clerk, do you know what 3 that is? 4 THE CLERK: 75. 5 THE COURT: 75? 6 THE CLERK: Yes. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q I ask you to take a look at what I handed up to 9 you as Defendant's Exhibit 75 and ask you if you have seen 10 that, can you identify it and does it refresh your 11 recollection as to how the meeting on April 6 took place? 12 THE COURT: I thought she was talking 13 previously about the meeting in New York. 14 THE WITNESS: That was a different letter, your 15 Honor. 16 MR. FUGATE: That was, I think, Mr. Jonas. I 17 didn't want to go back through all of that. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 MR. FUGATE: There was a question, Mr. Lirot 20 asked a couple questions, about where was counsel, 21 et cetera. And I just wanted to ask you -- 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q First of, all have you seen that letter before? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And is that letter accurate as far as you recall 1464 1 in how the meetings took place, how they went forward 2 without Mr. Howie there? 3 A Yes. And I believe I may have misspoken earlier. 4 I don't remember if I said it was a letter from Mr. Howie, 5 but -- but I do recall now that this is the letter that I 6 saw during the contempt proceeding before Judge Schaeffer on 7 April 5, I believe. 8 Q And so does it refresh your memory then that the 9 two of you went forward without counsel but with -- 10 THE COURT: I am sorry, but I don't remember 11 seeing this letter before as far as at any contempt 12 proceeding of mine. Maybe it was, but I don't 13 remember it. 14 MR. FUGATE: It was not. 15 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 16 MR. FUGATE: It was not presented as part of 17 the contempt proceedings. It was a letter she was 18 shown. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Is that right? 21 A Yes, earlier I testified I saw a letter that -- 22 that -- I think I testified that Mr. Howie had written a 23 letter saying it was acceptable to him for Mr. Minton to 24 meet without counsel. And I see -- see, now, and remember 25 now, that it was to him, not from him. 1465 1 Q And to get on to housekeeping matters, there were 2 also -- I think you have seen those letters and I think that 3 one of them is in the document production from Mr. McGowan, 4 and the others in the document production, which this letter 5 is also, from Mr. Howie, that the documents that were 6 delivered to you and to Mr. Minton by me were delivered with 7 a letter to each of your counsel on the 15th. Is that 8 correct? 9 A The April 15th letter -- 10 Q Yes. 11 A -- that we were talking about. 12 MR. FUGATE: That is part of the record, Judge, 13 just for housekeeping purposes. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Now, you have testified, as I heard your 16 testimony, that you have written a lot of negative things 17 about the Church over -- in the earlier affidavits, and I 18 won't go through them at this point. And that at the time 19 you wrote those, you believed what you wrote to be true. 20 Is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now, that was a time when you were, as you said, I 23 think, a member of the critic community? 24 A Well, actually, before I became a member of the 25 critic community, I began to have a job as a consultant to 1466 1 litigators. 2 Q And as a consultant, you were paid to write 3 affidavits. Is that correct? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And you also wrote affidavits and suggested facts 6 or suggested beliefs without basis in fact. Is that 7 correct? 8 A That is correct. 9 Q Now, you testified in response to some questions 10 that Mr. Dandar had told you that he believed that Judge 11 Schaeffer, Judge Quesada and whoever else were corrupt, that 12 they had been bribed, and something of that nature. Is that 13 correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q You did testify to that? 16 A Yes, I did. 17 Q Is that another example of a belief that was not 18 based in fact, as you now know it? 19 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I think we are getting -- 20 MR. LIROT: Judge, I think we are getting into 21 heavy leading questions on redirect. 22 THE COURT: I like that so I'll go ahead and 23 allow it. 24 A Mmm, on Mr. Dandar's part, you mean? 25 1467 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Yes. 3 A Yes, I believe -- I believe so. 4 THE COURT: I think what he's saying is you 5 have no factual basis to know that either Judge 6 Quesada, I or any other judge was being bribed. 7 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q But it didn't stop you from expressing the belief 10 at that time that you were told that, is that correct? 11 A Bribed and blackmailed. Yes. 12 Q And, again, it is not based on any facts, as you 13 sit here today. Is it? 14 A That is correct. 15 Q Now, in the time that you were a paid witness, a 16 paid affiant and a critic, if I could focus you on that 17 time, there were a lot of things that you wrote and I think 18 you have deemed it as fabricated scenarios or I think you 19 also said creative writing, that were more innuendo than 20 fact. Is that correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q Now, if you look at -- 23 MR. FUGATE: And I think, Judge, it is in 24 evidence as Plaintiff's Exhibit -- and I thought I 25 wrote it down here, but it is the 13 March of 1997 1468 1 Seattle affidavit that was submitted in this case by 2 Ms. Brooks. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Do you know what I'm talking about there? 5 THE COURT: That is the one that is in 6 evidence? 7 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Do you recall that? Let me -- 11 A Mmm -- 12 Q Let me -- 13 MR. FUGATE: Do you need a copy of it? 14 THE COURT: Is it the one dated December 14 of 15 '94? 16 MR. FUGATE: I think this is dated, your 17 Honor -- I can't get to the back of it. It is 18 dated -- I'll hand it up to you. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I think this is one of the ones 20 attached to the motions -- 21 THE COURT: I'm looking at the wrong one. 22 MR. FUGATE: 13 March of '97. I have it tabbed 23 just for convenience sake. 24 THE COURT: Oh, okay. This is the one attached 25 as part of -- 1469 1 MR. WEINBERG: The affidavit, I'm not sure. 2 THE COURT: I think it is. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q If you flip over to Page 27 and 28 -- Page 9, 5 Paragraphs 27 and 28 that Mr. Dandar had you read from 6 earlier today, do you see the statement, "I am familiar with 7 the day-to-day activities of the highest level of management 8 of Scientology"? 9 A Yes. 10 Q "I have firsthand knowledge of the establishment 11 of the corporate structure of Scientology as it now exists." 12 A Yes. 13 Q You see that statement? 14 A Yes, I do. 15 Q And is that based on facts? Or is that based on 16 creative writing? 17 A Mmm, that was based on a little bit of fact which 18 I expanded to seem to be a broad range of knowledge. 19 Q Well, do you recall when -- let me get to it 20 here -- you didn't work in any of those corporate 21 organizations that you're making reference to, did you? 22 A Well, I did work in ASI for about six months. 23 Q But not in RTC or any of the other corporate 24 organizations -- 25 A No. 1470 1 Q -- that you are writing about. Correct? 2 A Correct. 3 THE COURT: OSA, is that one? Or is that a 4 high level? 5 MR. FUGATE: No, it would be RTC, CSI or Flag. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q And I don't think you had anything to do with any 8 of those corporate entities, did you? 9 A I didn't work in any of them. 10 Q Okay. But you indicated in this affidavit you had 11 first-hand knowledge of how they were created and how they 12 worked. Correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that was not accurate. Was it? 15 A Mmm, I think I intended to create an impression 16 that I had a lot more firsthand knowledge than I really did. 17 Q Do you recall your deposition -- 18 THE COURT: Well, you can understand, ma'am, 19 how someone might say that is a lie. It says: "I 20 have firsthand knowledge of the corporate structure 21 of Scientology and how it exists, having worked with 22 the staff who are responsible for creating it." You 23 either do or you don't. If you don't, it's a lie. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, I did have some, your 25 Honor, as I testified earlier, I did deal with some 1471 1 of the staff who actually carried out the 2 restructuring. And they told me some things 3 about -- about it. 4 THE COURT: Okay. I think we have to be real 5 careful here because, I mean, she may want to say 6 this is creative writing. But the prosecutor may 7 wish to say that is a false statement. That she's 8 now testifying about, and it is -- in other words, I 9 don't know about creative writing and affidavits. I 10 know about true statements and I know about false 11 statements. Creative writing, I don't know we've 12 ever had that before. So -- 13 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking -- 14 THE COURT: I know. I understand. 15 MR. FUGATE: -- the questions, Judge. Frankly, 16 I'm asking the questions to go to -- 17 THE COURT: Well, before she said, "I can't say 18 that it is false." 19 MR. FUGATE: I think she also said, "I really 20 didn't have any personal knowledge of how the 21 restructuring, the reorganization went, et cetera." 22 All I'm trying to do is eliminate that for 23 whatever -- 24 THE COURT: Let me tell you what that says to 25 me. When somebody says "I can't say it is false," 1472 1 then it's true. And if it's not true, then it's 2 false. And if it's something in between, then I 3 need to know what to call it. 4 And if this witness wants to tell me that what 5 she's calling it is creative writing, then I really 6 need to know that, because I assumed when her answer 7 is "I can't say it is false," then basically she was 8 saying it was true. 9 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't believe I 10 used the term "Creative writing." 11 THE COURT: I don't either, but he's using it 12 and I want you to be careful, because creative 13 writing, I don't know what that is in an affidavit. 14 I don't think we allow it. 15 THE WITNESS: Right. And I don't think I 16 engaged in it. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q When you say, "I am familiar with the day-to-day 19 activities of the highest level of management of 20 Scientology," is that true, or is that false? 21 A It is true. And I can explain. 22 Q Well, explain. 23 A I spent six months working with some of the top 24 executives in Scientology. And because I did that, I was 25 familiar with some of their day-to-day activities. 1473 1 Q Some of the day-to-day activities? 2 A Yes. 3 Q But you were not involved, is it not correct, you 4 were not involved in the restructuring, corporate 5 restructuring, that you talked about in this court? 6 A That is correct. 7 Q But you filed affidavits -- affidavits implying or 8 I think you said, by innuendo, that you were. Correct? 9 A Well, I think you could have gotten that 10 impression. 11 Q And I guess for the judge's perspective is where 12 does that fall within firsthand knowledge, my personal 13 belief, is it -- is it innuendo? Or is it based on fact? 14 THE WITNESS: Well, your Honor, I'm not trying 15 to skirt this issue. But, Mmm, I did feel that I 16 had firsthand knowledge. I wasn't very well 17 educated at all on, you know, how much firsthand 18 knowledge you are required to have in order to say 19 you have firsthand knowledge in the legal sense. I 20 felt that I did have some firsthand knowledge. And 21 that I could legitimately make speculations as an 22 expert based on the experience that I had had. 23 THE COURT: And I don't disagree that you can 24 do that. You cannot put something in an 25 affidavit -- let me make this clear to you in case 1474 1 this ever happens in your future. 2 You cannot put something in an affidavit or in 3 a declaration that is false. 4 THE WITNESS: I understand that, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: And, therefore, I am assuming that 6 what you are testifying to, if you do not tell me to 7 the contrary, it is your declarations and your 8 affidavits, except for what you have told me is 9 false, if they are part of an affidavit in this case 10 or whatever else you might have told me about, is 11 true. 12 Now, if it's maybe exaggerated -- 13 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: -- and it's not maybe as in-depth 15 as it might have said, that may be a license as 16 permissible, even though I would certainly caution 17 you if I were your lawyer to caution you about that. 18 THE WITNESS: I won't do it any longer, your 19 Honor. 20 THE COURT: But I don't know of any model 21 ground. You know, an affidavit is supposed to be 22 true. And if you don't tell me that it's false, I 23 am going to assume that in the sense I think of it, 24 because that is all I know to think, it is true. 25 And except I think you suggested that you may 1475 1 have -- I don't know, you used some words that I was 2 okay with, you might have slanted it. 3 THE WITNESS: Yes. 4 THE COURT: I mean, I think affidavits that are 5 written by experts or testimony by experts sometimes 6 is slanted. But I don't think that they are 7 intentionally false. 8 THE WITNESS: Yes. 9 THE COURT: And there is a difference. I think 10 slanting testimony is something, slanting an 11 affidavit, happens. That is not that we are crazy 12 about it, but it happens. 13 But false, it's just not permissible. So 14 again, Mr. Fugate, when she leaves this stand, if 15 she has not told me something is false, in my mind, 16 it will be true or it -- it will be true, but it may 17 be slanted toward the side that she was submitting 18 it for. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I don't want to tinker with 20 that observation, either. 21 THE COURT: I just want to let you all know 22 where I'm coming from when I'm going to analyze this 23 at the end of the day, that I don't know about 24 what -- was that other term we were using? 25 MR. FUGATE: Well, there was fabricated 1476 1 scenario was one. I think she made a comment -- 2 THE WITNESS: Embellish. 3 MR. FUGATE: Embellish. 4 THE WITNESS: Exaggerate. 5 THE COURT: There was one I said I didn't know 6 about. 7 MR. DANDAR: Creative. 8 THE COURT: Creative writing. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't use that term. 10 THE COURT: Creative writing, to me, is when I 11 sit down and write -- I don't have to write anything 12 that is true or even close to being true. I can be 13 creative and I can just have a good time. 14 MR. FUGATE: Well, my note, and you can correct 15 me if I'm wrong, I think I heard you -- and I can't 16 remember if it was Tuesday or Monday -- say that you 17 told the Court, "It was my job to create the worst 18 impression of the Church of Scientology as I could 19 by my affidavits." 20 THE WITNESS: That is correct, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: And that is what you meant when you 22 meant slanted? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: But you are not telling me, I don't 25 think, that your affidavits or your declarations 1477 1 were false except what you have already identified 2 as false. 3 THE WITNESS: Correct, your Honor. For 4 example, when I say, "I am familiar with the 5 day-to-day activities of the highest level of 6 management of Scientology," I did have a time when I 7 was familiar with that. 8 THE COURT: And that is "because of my 9 experience in ASI"? 10 THE WITNESS: Right. 11 THE COURT: I were to assume, if I looked at 12 that very carefully when you were in ASI, during 13 that period of time, whatever it was, you may have 14 been familiar, because you say you were familiar 15 with the day-to-day activities at the highest level 16 of management of Scientology, I would assume 17 combining those two things, that is what you mean. 18 THE WITNESS: Right. What I wasn't saying -- 19 it was in 1982. I'm writing this affidavit in 19 20 whatever -- 21 THE COURT: But everybody knew you had been out 22 of Scientology a long period of time. So nobody is 23 saying they assume today you knew that. It was when 24 you were there. 25 THE WITNESS: Right. What I think I would say 1478 1 is that I did not make it a point to point out that 2 hadn't been there in fifteen years or whatever. I 3 didn't not say it. I just didn't say it. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Well, Ms. Brooks, the next -- 6 THE COURT: See, number one, "I was a member of 7 the Church of Scientology for fourteen years. From 8 January 1975 until January 1989." 9 So I would assume that after 1989, you have no 10 firsthand knowledge of anything in the Church of 11 Scientology. 12 THE WITNESS: That is correct. 13 THE COURT: And I would know that from reading 14 Paragraph 1. So when you read a declaration and -- 15 and you are right, you need to define the parameters 16 of the declaration and that is what you do when you 17 say this period of time and this period of time. 18 Then when I read this, I assume you're talking only 19 about the experience that you had when you were in 20 ASI, which was certainly not all that period of 21 time, but a shorter period of time. 22 THE WITNESS: Right. 23 THE COURT: So that is fine. But, again, if 24 something is false, you better tell me it's false or 25 I'm going to assume it is true even though it may be 1479 1 slanted. 2 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q The next sentence, if I may, is, "I have firsthand 5 knowledge of the establishment of the corporate structure of 6 Scientology as it now exists," and this was written in 1997, 7 so that would be slanted or not true. Correct? 8 A Well, it was my belief when I wrote this that 9 because of the things that people who were working on this 10 structure -- restructuring in 1982 told me. 11 Q But you say firsthand knowledge. What you said in 12 court the other day is it was really by virtue of secondhand 13 hearsay? 14 A Of that -- of those conversations that I had. 15 Q Then you say in Paragraph 28, "All Scientology 16 corporations are a sham." 17 And is that -- 18 THE COURT: Wait a second, where are we? 19 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, 28 on Page 9, 20 second line, "All Scientology corporations are a 21 sham." 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q And that would be trying to create the worst 24 possible impression. Is that an example of that? 25 A Yes. In fact, I have been advised by attorneys 1480 1 since then that that is a legal conclusion which I wasn't 2 qualified to make. 3 Q And the attorneys that were -- you were working 4 with at the time you wrote these affidavits didn't point 5 those things out to you, I take it? 6 A Well, the attorneys that I was working for were 7 happy to have me write this way. 8 Q Now, you wrote this affidavit in 1997, but do you 9 recall having testified in a deposition February 10, 1994 in 10 Sterling Management versus Cult Awareness Network, do you 11 recall having testified in a deposition there before -- 12 THE COURT: What was the name of the lawsuit 13 again, Counselor? 14 MR. FUGATE: Sterling Management Systems versus 15 Cult Awareness Network, et al. It's a Superior 16 Court of the state of California, Los Angeles. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q I think actually Justice Eagleson, I think he was 19 a master in that case, but he was a Supreme Court Justice. 20 Is that correct? 21 A Yes, I remember that. 22 Q Do you recall him indicating that you were not an 23 expert in corporate structure and you agreed with that? 24 A I remember him -- I certainly remember him 25 indicating it. 1481 1 Q Well, I'll just read this. 2 A Perhaps I agreed with him. I don't remember that. 3 Q "Justice Eagleson: Counsel, please let her 4 finish. I know what's going on here and so do you. She 5 doesn't know the difference between a director or an 6 executive officer but let her finish. 7 "The witness: I don't claim to be an expert on 8 corporate matters." 9 And he says, "All right." 10 Is that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: Me, either. 13 MR. FUGATE: Me, either. 14 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'm going to object to this 15 line of questioning because I thought when you 16 redirect your witness that you call you're supposed 17 to build up credibility, not tear it down. 18 THE COURT: Counsel, I don't need that. Sit 19 down. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Now, I'm going to ask you -- 22 MR. FUGATE: Could I have the Fishman 23 affidavit. 24 THE COURT: The rules of evidence -- I heard 25 somebody say so loud, "I don't get it." I'll tell 1482 1 you, rules of evidence allow a person to call their 2 own witness and impeach them. As long as you are 3 not calling the person solely for the purpose of 4 impeaching them, you can actually impeach your own 5 witness, both sides, everybody. 6 So things have changed from what they used to 7 be. The only thing you have to be careful is about 8 when somebody -- I see somebody putting somebody on 9 the stand for nothing other than to impeach them, 10 that is not permissible. 11 So that is not the sole purpose for which you 12 put her on the stand, so if he wants to impeach her 13 at this time, he can. 14 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I think, also, that this is 15 a slightly different process in that -- 16 THE COURT: No question about that. 17 MR. FUGATE: That is all I'll say, Judge. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q If you turn to Page 11, and this is the Fishman 20 affidavit that was signed by you, I believe, on -- you know 21 what, I do need glasses. Can you -- 22 A It is March 22nd. 23 Q Of 1994? 24 A It says. Yes. 25 THE COURT: Now, this is an affidavit that you 1483 1 have, and it is signed, and I'm going to assume this 2 is one Mr. Dandar would want to put in if he hasn't 3 already. 4 MR. FUGATE: I think it is in, in that group. 5 I just don't know the number, Judge. And I'll be 6 glad to mark it as a defendant's exhibit for the 7 clarity of the record, and it would be 76? Madam 8 Clerk? 9 THE CLERK: Yes. 10 THE COURT: I'll tell you what. I guess what I 11 was saying is if, in fact, this is one that 12 Mr. Dandar marked, do you remember he had a whole 13 series of them, and he couldn't get them in because 14 she said she would want to see signed versions -- 15 MR. FUGATE: Right? 16 THE COURT: Okay, if this is one of those, then 17 I'm going -- and she says, you know, it is hers, 18 then it's been authenticated, then it comes in. So 19 I don't know if this is one of those or not. 20 Mr. Dandar, you'll have to check. 21 You don't have to put it in as your exhibit 22 unless you want to. Because he tried to put all 23 those in as his exhibits. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't we go ahead and mark 25 this one because his were off the Internet and they 1484 1 were -- 2 THE COURT: That is fine. What number is this? 3 MR. WEINBERG: 76. 4 THE CLERK: 76. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q I would like to -- 7 THE COURT: Let's predicate that. You see, 8 ma'am, is that your signature? Because I sure don't 9 know. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q If you go to the -- 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, it is. 13 MR. DANDAR: Judge, it is Plaintiff's Exhibit 14 24 so we have a cross-reference, as well. 15 THE COURT: It is Plaintiff's Exhibit 24? 16 MR. DANDAR: The one she couldn't identify. 17 THE COURT: Oh, okay. So now Plaintiff's 18 Number 24 is likewise in that came off the Internet 19 if it is compared and it is identical. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Yes, which apparently it is not 21 quite -- 22 THE WITNESS: Could we switch this and make 23 this the exhibit, the one that is signed, and take 24 that other one out that has goofs in it? 25 THE COURT: Actually, not, because it would be 1485 1 too confusing for the record. So we'll just leave 2 it as it is. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Well, my question is -- 5 THE COURT: But that is not in, Number 24 6 wasn't in. Now it is, but the real one is Number 76 7 for the plaintiff (sic). 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q I'm going to ask you a question again about your 10 comment about the worst possible impression -- 11 THE COURT: I didn't say that well either, 12 Number 76 for the defendant. 13 MR. DANDAR: Right. 14 THE COURT: Okay. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q If you'll look, Ms. Brooks, at line -- or 17 Paragraph 20 on Page 11, and I'll read a statement that you 18 made and ask you about it. "I believe that all 19 Scientologists, even current leadership --" 20 THE COURT: Show me where you are reading. 21 MR. FUGATE: Here, Judge, right here. 22 THE COURT: Thank you, I got it. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q "I believe that all Scientologists, even the 25 current leadership, are victims of Hubbard's version of mind 1486 1 control, just as I was. These people, including the 2 Scientology attorneys and paralegals who deal with the 3 courts, have no idea how much they are under the coercive 4 influence of Scientology and its leaders. They are utterly 5 fanatical about their dedication and determination to 6 protect Scientology from 'enemies' like my husband and me." 7 Now, you -- 8 THE COURT: "Enemies," in quotes. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Yes, "enemies" in quotes. You wrote that and put 11 it in an affidavit, is that correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And you don't mean to imply that you think that 14 about Mr. Weinberg, Ms. Yingling, me or any lawyers you are 15 dealing with, correct? Is that just a worst impression type 16 of statement? 17 A Mmm, well, you know, at the time I wrote it, I 18 think that I was of a state of mind to think the worst and 19 to have the worst possible opinion. 20 THE COURT: Is there a difference in -- when 21 you make a comment of Scientology attorneys and 22 paralegals and attorneys who are not Scientologists, 23 I don't know the answer to that. 24 MR. FUGATE: I don't, either. 25 THE COURT: Were you referring there to 1487 1 Scientology attorneys meaning attorneys who are also 2 Scientologists? Or were you referring to any 3 lawyer, whether they are a Scientologist or not, who 4 is defending or prosecuting or being plaintiff's 5 counsel or defendant's counsel for the Church? 6 THE WITNESS: Actually, your Honor, I think I 7 meant people like Mr. Moxon. 8 THE COURT: I wondered if that is what you 9 meant, people who were Scientologists -- 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, and paralegals. 11 THE COURT: Not Mr. Moxon specifically. 12 THE WITNESS: No. 13 THE COURT: But attorneys -- 14 THE WITNESS: Somebody who might be an attorney 15 and also a Scientologist. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q But it was written to cast a negative impression 18 to the reader, and it was used by attorneys that you have 19 already told us about. Is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And is this one of the affidavits that you had 22 asked Mr. Leipold to withdraw? 23 A I believe this is the -- I'm not sure. But -- I'm 24 not sure. But I believe this is the affidavit that he had 25 filed. 1488 1 Q Well, I'm going to hand you up, if I may, a letter 2 that I think -- 3 THE COURT: I thought that was another case. I 4 thought that was the case involving Mr. Wollersheim. 5 THE WITNESS: It was -- 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, I'll let her explain 7 because she knows better than I. 8 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I believe Mr. Leipold had me 9 sign a cover affidavit. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: And, your Honor, I'm not sure 12 this is the one because I'm not looking at it, but I 13 believe that this is the one. 14 THE COURT: Much like in this case you -- 15 Mr. Dandar used an affidavit that you had signed in 16 a previous case with a cover of some sort? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Okay. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Then let me hand this next exhibit up and ask you 21 to -- to take a look at it, if you will, and see if you can 22 identify it. I'll give the Court a copy. And this will be, 23 if admitted, 77. 24 I believe this is a letter that is part of the 25 documents you produced. 1489 1 Can you take a quick read of that and tell us what 2 affidavit, if you can, that you are relying -- you are 3 talking about? 4 THE COURT: This was produced pursuant to the 5 notice to produce? 6 MR. FUGATE: I believe it was produced to us 7 and I believe it is in the production. I just don't 8 know what the number is. 9 THE COURT: Okay. 10 THE WITNESS: What is it you want -- 11 THE COURT: Was it, Counsel, part of -- 12 MR. McGOWAN: I haven't seen it. 13 THE COURT: I don't remember, to be honest with 14 you. 15 MR. McGOWAN: No, this was not part of our 16 production. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Was this a letter you produced to Mr. Rinder? 19 A Yes. 20 MR. FUGATE: I believe it's in our production, 21 but I didn't pull it out, Judge. 22 THE COURT: Okay. 23 MR. DANDAR: Is this 77? 24 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 25 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 1490 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q If you look, you say -- 3 A I say, "Neither Bob Minton nor I are under 4 pressure from Scientology. What has happened is that after 5 years of telling lies and being used by you and other 6 anti-Scientology lawyers, we find ourselves facing serious 7 legal problems of our own and decided to tell the truth. We 8 have not been intimidated in any way. We just want to get 9 out of this anti-Scientology litigation enterprise that has 10 been fueled by Bob's money and end the lies." 11 Q And that is what you were explaining to 12 Mr. Leipold in response to his April 23rd letter? 13 A Yes. 14 Q I think there was some conversation about. My 15 question, however, was did you -- did you write this letter, 16 by the way? So we can authenticate it and move it into 17 evidence. 18 A Yes. 19 MR. FUGATE: I move it into evidence, your 20 Honor, as Defendant's 77. 21 THE COURT: All right. 22 MR. DANDAR: No objection, but we would like 23 Mr. Leipold's letter that this is responding to. 24 THE WITNESS: And you can also have 25 Mr. Leipold's letter that responded to this letter. 1491 1 MR. DANDAR: That would be fine. 2 MR. FUGATE: I don't have that one but 3 whatever. 4 THE COURT: Do we have the letters that it's in 5 response to? 6 MR. FUGATE: I think there was an unsigned 7 letter -- 8 THE COURT: Mr. Minton raised his hands back 9 there. 10 MR. FUGATE: Good, Judge, then we'll have them. 11 But I don't have them, but I'll ask they be produced 12 through Mr. Minton. 13 THE COURT: Fine. 14 MR. FUGATE: All I want to do is ask a 15 question, if I can. 16 THE COURT: You may. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q I actually want to direct your attention, if I 19 may, to the second paragraph where you say, "I do not want 20 my declaration withdrawn because of pressure from 21 Scientology. I told you very clearly I want my declaration 22 withdrawn because it is not true." 23 Do you see that? 24 A Yes. 25 Q Did you write that? 1492 1 A Yes, I did. 2 Q Is that in reference to the declaration that we 3 were just reading from, which is the 20 -- whatever day of 4 March in the Fishman case? 5 A Yes. But I think I should clarify that, if you 6 would let me. 7 Q Go ahead. 8 A What I told Mr. Leipold -- 9 THE COURT: Now I want to know what declaration 10 we're talking about. Now we can't have somebody 11 saying declaration is not true -- 12 THE WITNESS: That is why I want to clarify 13 that statement. 14 THE COURT: I have to know what one it is. 15 THE WITNESS: It is this one, your Honor. 16 MR. FUGATE: That is why I was asking the 17 question, Judge. 18 THE COURT: But she wasn't sure. Do you 19 remember she said, "This is the one, I'm not sure 20 but it is the one, this one." 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 THE COURT: Number 76? 23 THE WITNESS: I believe it is. But I want to 24 clarify that statement because I want you to 25 understand what I mean. 1493 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 THE WITNESS: In the conversations that I have 3 had with Mr. Leipold, I had been very clear with him 4 that I had -- well, that there were issues regarding 5 some of my statements in this affidavit that were 6 not based on any kind of information that I could 7 stand on. 8 In other words, I had gone over this with my 9 attorney. And I don't want to waive my 10 attorney-client privilege, but after having gone 11 over this affidavit with my attorney, I had advised 12 Mr. Leipold that I did not feel that I could back up 13 some of the statements that I had made in this 14 affidavit in testimony. And that I -- and that my 15 attorney had educated me about some legal issues 16 that I had not understood prior. And that based on 17 further information that I now understood, I wanted 18 him to withdraw my affidavit because of exactly the 19 kinds of things that we have just gone over; that, 20 you know, I said that I had personal knowledge, but 21 my personal knowledge was not enough personal 22 knowledge to back up the statement that I made. And 23 to that degree, I felt that it wasn't true. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q And you wrote a letter requesting it be withdrawn 1494 1 because, as you say, it wasn't true? 2 A Well, I -- actually, I believe what happened was I 3 made several phone calls to Mr. Leipold, asking him to 4 withdraw it. And then Mr. Leipold sent me a letter. So I 5 believe it was Mr. Leipold who sent the first letter. 6 But he was writing a letter in response to 7 telephone conversations that he and I had. 8 Q Let's move on. The fact of the matter is you 9 wrote the letter, you asked to have it withdrawn and said 10 what you said. Is that correct? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: Well, at some point in time I'm 13 going to ask her, if nobody else does, what about 14 this affidavit is not true. And what about it is 15 true. That is critical to me. I need to know 16 whether she has written an entirely false affidavit, 17 in addition to the false testimony she has given 18 here, or if there is a short small portion of it 19 that has already been -- 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor. 21 THE COURT: So you be prepared for that. 22 THE WITNESS: I can answer you now, perhaps. 23 THE COURT: All right. 24 THE WITNESS: Mmm, as I -- as I said, when I 25 said that, it was in reference to passages in my 1495 1 declaration, such as the one that I just went over 2 with Mr. Fugate. 3 For example -- where was that paragraph? 4 THE COURT: You may not want to do it now. But 5 when we take a break, you just underline, highlight, 6 do whatever you want to do. I want you to read to 7 me line by line. I want to know what isn't true and 8 what is true about this affidavit. 9 THE WITNESS: All right, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Well, so we have some perspective on what is 13 happening, the only time prior to today, I take it, that you 14 have been questioned about what is in your affidavits was in 15 that deposition that I just made reference to where Justice 16 Eagleson was the special master, as far as these affidavits 17 that go to the Fishman case and that were in the Wollersheim 18 case and other cases. Is that correct? 19 A I -- 20 Q Not the ones that are here? 21 A I may have -- I believe I was deposed more than 22 once. 23 Q All right. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I don't intend to go through 25 everything line by line, Judge. 1496 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. FUGATE: I just pointed out things I had 3 concern with and she -- 4 THE COURT: I understand, but once I have 5 somebody saying that something is not true, which 6 was suggested in this letter, I have an obligation 7 to do that. 8 MR. FUGATE: I understand. I just want the 9 Court to know I'm not going through affidavit by 10 affidavit. I don't have the stamina. 11 THE COURT: I understand. I don't, either. I 12 only want to talk about that that is not true that 13 was stated under oath so I can judge the credibility 14 of this witness. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Now, without going through the affidavit -- and I 17 don't even recall the number. I trust the clerk will tell 18 me -- Mr. Lirot introduced a 1994 affidavit that you wrote 19 about meeting Mr. Rinder. We've heard some conversation 20 about that. Is that correct? 21 A Did I write an affidavit? 22 Q Yes. 23 A Yes. 24 MR. FUGATE: And I'll check with the clerk, 25 your Honor, so we have the number for the record. 1497 1 MR. LIROT: 14. 2 MR. FUGATE: It was admitted on May 7th. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q And that was the affidavit that you wrote in 5 conjunction with the Fishman case. Is that correct? 6 A Mmm, I don't believe it was ever -- I'm not sure 7 where that ended up being filed. 8 Q Well, you remember the affidavit we're talking 9 about? 10 A Yes. 11 Q I don't need to go through it. I just want to ask 12 you some questions. 13 THE COURT: Which date is that, Counsel? 14 MR. WEINBERG: Why don't you just show it to 15 her. 16 THE COURT: Number 14, I see one right here 17 that has Number 14 on it so it must be that one. 18 MR. FUGATE: It is a '94 affidavit. 19 THE COURT: December 14 of 1994? 20 MR. FUGATE: That is it. 21 THE COURT: I have got it. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Let's -- the Fishman case, can we ask you to tell 24 us, was the Fishman case a case where Mr. Fishman was 25 claiming to have been a Scientologist? Is that the case 1498 1 we're talking about? 2 A That was one of the claims he made. Yeah. 3 Q You, in fact, didn't believe he was a 4 Scientologist, did you? 5 A Mmm, I didn't believe that he had ever done more 6 than buy a lot of Scientology materials. I didn't believe 7 that he was qualified ever to have been allowed to get any 8 auditing or anything like that. 9 Q And the attorney that was handling that case was 10 who? 11 A Graham Berry. 12 Q Did Mr. Berry ask you to read a book Mr. Fishman 13 had written called The Lonesome Squirrel? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And did he ask you to try to verify that that was 16 a book about his experience as a Scientologist at -- 17 Mr. Fishman -- Mr. Fishman's experience as a Scientologist? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And after you read it, were you convinced that 20 Mr. Fishman was not a Scientologist? 21 A I was convinced that Mr. Fishman had not had the 22 experiences that he had claimed to have in that book. 23 Q And when you told Mr. Berry that, what was the 24 result? 25 A What was his response? 1499 1 Q Well, did he tell you, "Let's do some affidavits 2 anyway"? 3 A Yes, basically he said, "Well, what could have 4 happened?" 5 Q And this is where I think you told us so long ago 6 about your fabricated scenario of the end cycle. Do you 7 recall telling the Court about how you came up with the 8 scenario that I think you described -- 9 A I don't -- go ahead, sir. 10 Q I think you described it as the end of cycle? 11 A That wasn't my term. That was Fishman's term that 12 he used. 13 Q But you wrote an affidavit trying to support that. 14 Correct? 15 A Mmm, I don't recall I was supporting his end cycle 16 thing. 17 Q Well, do you recall -- and this I guess is at a 18 time when you were writing affidavits and you were paid as 19 an expert. Do you recall coming up with the strategy of 20 serving celebrities at the Celebrity Center in 1993 with 21 subpoenas in that litigation? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that was meant to harass folks, wasn't it, 24 that strategy? 25 A Yes. 1500 1 Q And was that a strategy like the strategy that you 2 have told us about, about bringing in the highest 3 management, trying to cause problems for Scientology? Was 4 that part of the strategy that you and your husband were 5 embarking on in your anti-Scientology consulting business? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And was that the type of strategy that the lawyers 8 that were employing you and paying you money wanted to see 9 occur, in your opinion? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And it was after that case that you first met 12 Mr. Rinder. Correct? 13 A No. I had known him when I was in Scientology. 14 Q You are right. I'm sorry. But the affidavit that 15 you have written about Mr. Rinder occurred after -- or 16 during the Fishman case. Is that correct? After these 17 events had happened and he came to you -- 18 A He -- sorry. 19 Q Is that -- 20 A It was after the Fishman case was resolved. 21 Q And, in fact, Mr. Rinder had written an affidavit, 22 had he not, and you have, I think, had it posted, or someone 23 had it posted, on the LMT website, is that correct? 24 A Are you talking about the affidavit he wrote about 25 our meeting? 1501 1 Q Uh-huh. 2 A He did write one. Yes. 3 Q And have you had a chance to look at that lately? 4 A Not very much. 5 Q I think it is -- 6 MR. FUGATE: Actually, Judge, I think this is 7 one I need to explain. Mr. McGowan and I were going 8 to address it and we got off on -- 9 THE WITNESS: Wait, this is my declaration. 10 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge. 11 THE COURT: Here is another declaration that is 12 signed. 13 MR. FUGATE: But I think -- I think I gave you 14 the wrong one. 15 THE COURT: Well, let's see if we can get this 16 one in, an authentic declaration. This is one 17 dated -- oh, this one already is in. 18 MR. FUGATE: It's in, Judge. 19 THE COURT: But it's not signed. And so now 20 this is a signed one. So to the extent that the one 21 on December 14th that was pulled off the Internet, 22 and this one, are the same, then you would verify 23 that it's an affidavit of yours, is that correct? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 MR. DANDAR: Is this her affidavit? 1502 1 MR. FUGATE: This is Mr. Rinder's affidavit. 2 THE COURT: This is her affidavit dated 3 December 14 of 1994. It's really in evidence but -- 4 in other words, we've already accepted that into 5 evidence because she has gone over it. But now we 6 have it in signed form so there is no question about 7 it being authentic to the extent it matches up with 8 the one pulled off the Internet. To the extent it 9 has errors or what have you, that she indicated can 10 occur during scanning, it is not authentic. Or at 11 least it hasn't been authenticated. 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Okay. This is Mr. Rinder's 14 affidavit. And this you are going to try to 15 introduce? 16 MR. FUGATE: Well, I want to clarify the record 17 on something. 18 This is in the document production, this 19 particular affidavit that we provided to the Court 20 as documents being produced from Ms. Brooks -- or to 21 Ms. Brooks. And I think that what happened there is 22 that I gave this to counsel the day that she was 23 testifying and she went on cross-examination, so I 24 don't really think she saw it, properly so. 25 1503 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q But it was part of the production, so I'm going to 3 ask you if you just look at it. And can you identify it, 4 and if you can -- if you have to read the whole thing -- 5 THE COURT: I'm confused, so we need to stop. 6 Is this part of the packet that you produced to 7 Mr. Dandar and Mr. Dandar said, "I want you to 8 produce to us everything that was provided to her"? 9 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 10 THE COURT: Before she wrote her second 11 affidavit? 12 MR. FUGATE: No. All of the documents were 13 produced to Mr. McGowan and Ms. Brooks is what the 14 production was. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 MR. FUGATE: And what I'm saying to you is I 17 did produce this to Mr. McGowan. I think when she 18 said, "I haven't seen it before," somebody asked her 19 about it, I think, correct me if I'm wrong, I gave 20 it to him, she was on cross, so I assume she didn't 21 look at it. Is that right? 22 THE COURT: Well, did you give it to Mr. Lirot? 23 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 24 MR. LIROT: Judge, it was already identified 25 and entered into evidence as 15V as in Victor. 1504 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 MR. McGOWAN: That is correct. 3 MR. FUGATE: Well, much to-do about nothing. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Do you recognize it? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And it was written prior to your affidavit dealing 8 with Mr. Rinder and offer of money -- 9 A Yes. 10 Q -- and all of the things we talked about. Is that 11 correct? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And I think Mr. Lirot asked you if you believed 14 that what you have written there was that you were being 15 offered money to be silenced. And I think you said that you 16 were. Is that correct? 17 A I don't remember that I said that. 18 Q Well, let me ask you this. It was Graham Berry 19 that you were working for in that case, is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And do you remember Mr. Berry writing a letter, 22 making a $3 million settlement demand, on your behalf, for 23 you and your husband, with regard to that case and 24 withdrawing your support as a Scientology critic? Do you 25 remember that? 1505 1 A Mmm, I -- what I recall is that Mr. Berry wrote a 2 letter basically outlining a global settlement offer which 3 he included us in. 4 Q I want to ask you -- 5 MR. FUGATE: If I may approach the witness, 6 your Honor. 7 THE COURT: You may. Did you say million or 8 billion? 9 MR. FUGATE: Million. 10 THE COURT: All right. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q If you flip -- do you recognize the letter, by the 13 way, and you are aware of the letter being written? 14 A I recognize the signature and I believe this was 15 the letter that was written. 16 Q The date of the letter is February 16, 1994. 17 Correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And Mr. Rinder's affidavit is -- 20 A That was later. 21 Q -- written after this letter was provided. 22 Correct? 23 A Well -- 24 Q His affidavit was -- 25 A Well, his was in October. 1506 1 Q October of 1994 is Mr. Rinder's affidavit 2 describing what he recalled happening. Correct? Look at 3 the schedule at the back of this letter. Do you have that? 4 A Yes. 5 Q It says, "Potential group settlement 6 participants." Do you see that? 7 A Yes. 8 Q Do you see, probably a little better than halfway 9 down the page, it says, "Vaughn and Stacy Young, 10 $3 million"? 11 A Yes. 12 Q And does that indicate that there was a settlement 13 request or demand made by Mr. Berry on your behalf? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Now, at that time, did you have any litigation 16 pending against Scientology? 17 A No. 18 Q The Church of Scientology in any form? 19 A No. 20 Q Did any of the other folks there have any -- 21 besides Mr. Geertz and Mr. Fishman, who appears to be the 22 only case that is set out, did anybody else here, Aznarans, 23 Wollersheim, Andre and Mary Tabayoyon, et cetera, did these 24 folks have lawsuits pending when this was signed? 25 A I believe so. 1507 1 Q Did Mr. Berry represent all those folks? 2 A Mmm -- 3 Q He didn't, did he? 4 A I don't believe he did. I'm not saying that all 5 these people had any. But I believe perhaps the Wollersheim 6 litigation -- yes, that was still ongoing. I mean, it 7 hadn't been resolved. And I don't know if the Aznarans 8 were. 9 Q He had three asterisks by "High level Scientology 10 defector to be revealed next week," and he wants $5 million 11 for him. So this is the Graham Berry that you were writing 12 affidavits that you have described to the court -- 13 A Yes. 14 Q Now, he appears to be the one that was asking for 15 a settlement when there was no lawsuit pending on behalf of 16 you or your husband, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Just to be clear, no money was paid to you by the 19 Church or any entity of the Church at all at that time. Was 20 there? 21 A No. 22 Q And after this settlement demand letter was 23 written, you carried on with your anti-Scientology expert 24 role or testimony role and the critic community soon 25 thereafter developed. Is that correct? 1508 1 A Yes. 2 Q Now, you had testified, and I think there was some 3 parsing as to the exact term and I'm not going to go there, 4 but you said that in these years '94 through to the present 5 time, I think your testimony in your affidavit was your 6 primary source of income was from being a consultant and 7 writing affidavits or providing consulting services. 8 A Yes. 9 Q And do you have any idea approximately what you 10 have been paid over those years for doing that? 11 A Whew. 12 Q And this isn't -- if you have a ballpark, ballpark 13 is fine. I'm just asking if you have an idea what that 14 would amount to over the years. 15 A Perhaps up to $200,000. 16 Q But you were never paid any money by Scientology 17 despite these demands by lawyers. Is that correct? 18 A Yes. 19 THE COURT: Were there more demands? I don't 20 know. Or are we talking about this demand? 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Were there any other demands to make -- 23 A You mean like this? 24 Q Like the letter? 25 A Mmm, I don't believe so. 1509 1 MR. FUGATE: Then I stand corrected. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q The demand by Mr. Graham Berry. And you are not 4 being paid to testify in this proceeding by anyone. Are 5 you? 6 A No. I'm not doing that anymore. 7 Q I understand. Now, is Mr. Graham Berry the same 8 Graham Berry that filed the lawsuit on behalf of the 9 witness, Michael Pattinson, in this case? 10 THE COURT: Which case, Counsel? 11 MR. FUGATE: The wrongful death case. 12 THE COURT: The case I'm in? 13 MR. FUGATE: The case you are in now. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Are you aware of Mr. Dandar listed one of his 16 witnesses a Michael Pattinson? 17 THE COURT: Because I never heard of it before. 18 It doesn't mean anything. 19 A Yes. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q You are aware of that? Are you aware Mr. Berry 22 filed a lawsuit on Mr. Pattinson's behalf? 23 A Yes. But did you say that lawsuit was part of 24 this lawsuit? 25 Q No, I said Mr. Pattinson had been listed by 1510 1 Mr. Dandar as a witness in this case? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And have you seen -- 4 MR. FUGATE: This is only the caption page. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q Have you seen a copy of the lawsuit filed by 7 Mr. Berry on Mr. Pattinson's behalf? 8 A I believe I did at some point. 9 Q He's suing, according to the face page, 10 Mr. Miscavige, as well as Bill Clinton, and John Travolta, 11 et cetera. 12 A Et cetera, et cetera. 13 Q Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. 14 THE COURT: Madeleine Albright? 15 MR. FUGATE: Madeleine Albright. 16 THE WITNESS: I don't know she was in there, 17 your Honor, but -- 18 THE COURT: Yes, she is. I see her. 19 MR. FUGATE: She's on there. 20 THE WITNESS: Just about everybody. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q And is this the same Mr. Graham Berry who was 23 ultimately declared to be a vexatious litigant under 24 California law because of the lawsuits that he had brought 25 against the Church of Scientology? 1511 1 A Yes. 2 Q He's the lawyer that first introduced you to 3 testify against Scientology and was one of the ones -- 4 THE COURT: Does this have a number? I 5 don't -- I did not write a number down. Did you 6 mean for this to be introduced? 7 MR. FUGATE: You know what, yes, Judge. It 8 would be 79? Madam Clerk? 9 THE CLERK: Did you do 78? 10 MR. FUGATE: There you go, 78, Judge. 11 THE COURT: Do you have any objection? 12 MR. DANDAR: It is relevance, Judge. 13 THE COURT: It may not be, but I'm going to let 14 it in any way. What number? 15 THE CLERK: 78. 16 MR. DANDAR: It's just the first two pages of a 17 complaint. 18 THE COURT: I know, but the truth of the matter 19 is I don't want the whole complaint. Can you 20 imagine how thick it must be? 21 MR. LIEBERMAN: It was actually about 200 pages 22 long. 23 THE COURT: Yes, see. So -- 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, Judge, I think we may 25 be misnumbering because the Graham -- the Graham 1512 1 Berry letter I did introduce, and would that have 2 been 78? 3 MR. DANDAR: 77. 4 MR. FUGATE: 77? 5 THE CLERK: That is 77. 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, then this is 78. I'm 7 sorry, Judge, I'm having -- 8 THE COURT: I have a clerk here. You can see 9 why I asked for a clerk. 10 MR. FUGATE: That is okay. I'm getting radio 11 signals from the back. 12 MR. DANDAR: Sorry. 13 MR. FUGATE: I didn't mean you actually. 14 MR. DANDAR: No. Is 77 the letter from Brooks 15 to Leipold? 16 MR. FUGATE: No, the letter from Graham Berry 17 asking for a $3 million settlement demand. 18 MR. LIROT: Dated February 16, 1994? 19 MR. WEINBERG: You need to look and see what -- 20 THE COURT: The letter from Graham Berry has 21 not been introduced. 22 THE CLERK: Right, you didn't say about 23 introducing it. 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry, do you know what is 25 confusing her, Judge, I did correctly speak. We've 1513 1 introduced the Leipold letter. 2 THE COURT: Right. 3 MR. FUGATE: The Graham Berry letter would be 4 78. Then I would have been right, the Pattinson 5 lawsuit would be 79. 6 THE COURT: The Graham Berry letter to whom 7 now? 8 MR. FUGATE: It's to Jonathan LaBelle. 9 MR. DANDAR: Rank hearsay. 10 THE COURT: Sustained. That is not 11 authenticated. 12 MR. FUGATE: I said did she recognize it and 13 was she aware it had been presented. 14 THE COURT: Did she? 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Okay. Then I'll allow it. It is 17 hearsay, but if she can identify it, I'll let it in. 18 MR. DANDAR: Is the complaint page of the 20 19 defendants, is that -- what number is that? 20 MR. FUGATE: That is correctly 79. Right, 21 Madam Clerk? 22 THE CLERK: Yes. 23 MR. DANDAR: Okay. 24 MR. FUGATE: Okay. Did I give you this? 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 1514 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Do you recognize a copy of the -- which would be 3 80 -- which is the suspension letter for Mr. Berry? 4 A Mr. Fugate, I have never actually seen the letter. 5 I have -- 6 Q Maybe this -- 7 A -- been told it happened. 8 Q Pardon me? 9 A I had been told it happened, but I have never 10 actually seen this before. 11 MR. FUGATE: Then I would withdraw this, Judge. 12 THE COURT: Okay. 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q Are you aware Mr. Berry was, in fact, disciplined 15 and suspended by the California Supreme Court? 16 A Yes. I was. 17 Q And is this the same Graham Berry that was a 18 member of or employed by LMT at one time? 19 A He was going to be. I changed my mind. 20 MR. FUGATE: May I have a moment, your Honor? 21 THE COURT: You may. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Did he do work for LMT in Germany, Mr. Graham 24 Berry? 25 A He was supposed to. 1515 1 Q I'm sorry? 2 A He was supposed to. 3 Q Did he bill for work in Germany? 4 A Mmm, I don't believe he ever actually billed for 5 it because he never actually did it. 6 MR. FUGATE: Then 80 would not be -- we would 7 not submit it, your Honor. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Now, Mr. Lirot read to you from a harassment time 11 line that you prepared and posted on the LMT. Is that 12 correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And that would have been a time line that was 15 posted for the critic community to read, and it was written 16 for that audience. Is that correct? 17 A Mmm, as it happened, it was. Yes. I had hoped to 18 have another use for it, but that wasn't -- that didn't turn 19 out to be workable. 20 Q And if it had been a accurate harassment time line 21 that recorded both the harassment by the LMT and members, as 22 well as the perceived harassment by the Church, it would 23 have been much longer, correct, with pickets, et cetera? 24 A I think it probably would have been twice as long. 25 THE COURT: I understand that. If it had been 1516 1 accurate? Are you saying that is a law? 2 MR. FUGATE: No, balance. 3 THE WITNESS: Balance. I think she -- 4 MR. FUGATE: I think she said at one time when 5 we picketed, they picketed. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q I actually should ask you that. Do you remember 8 saying when we picketed the Church, the Church would picket 9 us, words to that effect? 10 A Yes. 11 Q So if this harassment time line were balanced and 12 showed both versions, it would be at least twice as long, is 13 that what we're looking at? 14 A If it were balanced and showed harassment from 15 both sides. 16 THE COURT: Did you all go to members of the 17 Church of Scientology's families and children? LMT? 18 THE WITNESS: Mmm, no. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Well, did you and Mr. Minton go to Bennetta 21 Slaughter's home and picket one night? 22 A Yes, we did one night. 23 Q Bennetta Slaughter is known to be a public member 24 of the Church of Scientology? 25 A Yes. 1517 1 Q And she was Lisa McPherson's employer at AMC, is 2 that correct? 3 A Yes. 4 THE COURT: That is once. As I recall in your 5 time line you talk about several occasions when 6 Mr. Minton's wife and family were somehow harassed, 7 at least you said they were harassed, by members of 8 the Church of Scientology. 9 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: And so while it may not have been 11 twice as long, it would have been longer if you had 12 put in your own harassment or LMT's harassment of 13 the Church and members of the Church. 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: I don't want to read one that is 16 twice as long, so -- 17 MR. FUGATE: I'm not going to -- 18 THE COURT: I'll just accept that. 19 MR. FUGATE: Judge, I promise you, I'm trying 20 to move through this. 21 THE COURT: I know. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q I'm going to ask you to look at -- 24 MR. FUGATE: This will be 80, Madam Clerk? 25 THE CLERK: Yes. 1518 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q -- what I'll offer as Exhibit 80, I think it's a 3 list? 4 THE COURT: No, 80 is something that has been 5 identified, but it has not been received. 6 MR. FUGATE: 81. I'm sorry, I'll hand this up 7 to you. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Do you recognize -- this is a copy, granted, of 10 the list of officers, staff, board of directors, advisory 11 committee, et cetera, of the Lisa McPherson Trust? 12 A It was a list at one time, yes. 13 Q Well, let me put it to you this way. This was 14 published or put out by LMT. Is that correct? 15 A Yes. 16 MR. FUGATE: And I would move it into evidence 17 as Exhibit 81. 18 THE COURT: Is this like a little brochure that 19 would have been folded like this? 20 THE WITNESS: Yes, it had writing on the other 21 side, too, and it was folded. 22 MR. FUGATE: Actually, Judge, I am remiss 23 because I should have introduced it at the beginning 24 because it is kind of a score card of keeping track 25 who folks are. 1519 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q In fact, let's just take a look at that, if we 4 can, for a minute. 5 On this particular one, you are the president, 6 listed as the president. Correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And you were employed in the -- Mr. Dandar's trial 9 team, is that correct, at one point? 10 A Yes. 11 Q Jesse Prince is listed as the executive 12 vice-president. Is that correct? 13 A Yes. 14 Q And he, of course, was part of Mr. Dandar's trial 15 team. Is that correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q We have Grady Ward that we've heard about, and 18 he's what you call the webmaster and security person? 19 A Yes. 20 Q Is he a person that was also funded by Mr. Minton? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And he's been funded in other litigation against 23 the Church? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And where is -- well, I'll wait on that a minute. 1520 1 Now we see on the board of directors Peter 2 Alexander. Who is Peter Alexander? 3 A Peter Alexander is a former Scientologist who is 4 the one who -- well, one of the two people who produced that 5 movie, "The Prophet." 6 Q That is associated with Courage Productions that 7 we saw on that wheel thing that Mr. -- 8 A Yes. 9 Q -- Lirot handed up? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And skipping down past you again to Patricia 12 Greenway, who is Patricia Greenway? 13 A She's Peter Alexander's partner, one of Peter 14 Alexander's partners in Courage Productions. 15 Q Is she, to your knowledge, part of Mr. Dandar's 16 trial team, these days? 17 A Yes. 18 Q Is that -- well, she was present here earlier, the 19 woman in white with the white dark glasses? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Has a phone that goes off? 22 A Yes. 23 THE COURT: Which phone? 24 MR. FUGATE: The one that plays the tune that I 25 still am trying to identify, Judge. 1521 1 MR. LIROT: The non-Mozart phone, Judge. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q She and Mr. Dandar are also folks funded by 4 Mr. Minton? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And how much money, if you are aware, was put into 7 the filming of "The Prophet" by Mr. Minton? 8 A Mr. Minton invested 2 and a half million dollars 9 into that film. 10 Q Is this the Ms. Greenway that recommended 11 hiring -- recommended to you to hire Mr. Merrett into -- 12 A Yes. 13 Q -- your -- to represent you on behalf of LMT and 14 you individually at the time? 15 A Yes. 16 Q Jeff Jacobson is who? 17 A He is a member of the Scientology critic 18 community. And he had, and I believe still has, an 19 extensive website about Lisa McPherson. And he was a staff 20 member at LMT. 21 Q Was he ever given an award, to your knowledge, by 22 Mr. Minton? Do you recall? 23 A I don't. 24 Q Who is Rod Keller? 25 A He's another member of the Scientology critic 1522 1 community. 2 Q And has he been paid by Mr. Minton, as well, to 3 your knowledge? 4 A I don't believe so. 5 Q Mr. Jacobson has, however, though, correct? 6 A Well, as an LMT staff member. 7 Q And Kim Krenek is who? 8 A She, I believe, is the niece of Dell Liebreich. 9 Q And Dell Liebreich, of course we know, is the 10 personal representative. 11 Bob Minton we know. Jesse Prince, we know. 12 Gerry Armstrong, is that the same Gerry Armstrong 13 we heard about in, oh, so many days of testimony? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And he was brought into the LMT by who? 16 A Mr. Minton. 17 Q Then we see advisory members Ken Dandar. That 18 would be Mr. Dandar here. Correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And is Mr. Dandar the one that incorporated the 21 LMT? 22 A Yes. 23 THE COURT: That has been asked and answered, I 24 believe. 25 MR. FUGATE: I'm moving on, Judge. 1523 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q We have Mr. Emmons. Do you see Ray Emmons? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Who is Mr. Emmons? 5 A He's a private investigator who used to be a 6 member of the Clearwater Police Department. 7 Q He's a private investigator. Is he employed by 8 Mr. Dandar in the personal -- or wrongful death case, to 9 your knowledge? 10 A I believe so. 11 Q Steve Hassan? 12 A Yes? 13 Q Who is he? 14 A He's a man who -- who has an organization which 15 deals with people who are coming out of cults. 16 Q And was he paid money by Mr. Minton to take part 17 in the LMT? 18 A Well, he wasn't paid money by Mr. Minton to take 19 part in the LMT, but he -- Mr. Minton has paid him. 20 Q Keith Henson, who is he? 21 A Keith Henson is another member of the critic 22 community that Mr. Minton has funded in the past. 23 Q Dan Leipold we heard about. Mr. Oliver? 24 A He's a former Scientologist who is, I believe, 25 supposed to testify in this hearing. 1524 1 Q And he was on the advisory committee of LMT, as 2 well? 3 A Yes. 4 Q Is he part of the critic community, as you call 5 it? 6 A Yes. 7 Q Arnie Lerma? 8 A He's a former Scientologist who is a part of the 9 critic community. 10 Q Margery Wakefield? 11 A She's a part of the critic community. 12 Q Was she also listed as an expert witness for 13 Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death lawsuit? 14 A I believe so. Yes. 15 Q And has she been paid with moneys from LMT, or 16 Mr. Minton, to your knowledge? 17 A Mmm, I believe that is possible. 18 Q And Lawrence Wollersheim we've heard about. He 19 was also on the advisory committee. Is that correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And he had been funded, in his litigation, by 22 Mr. Minton, I think we've heard about? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Now, the Internet resources that you list there, 25 these resources, in general, are critic community type 1525 1 resources where you could go to -- I think the majority of 2 them where you could go to find out things about the Lisa 3 McPherson case or other anti-Scientology information? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Now, www.zenu.net, N-E-T. Who do you know is that 6 Internet website associated with? 7 A I believe that is the address for Operation 8 Clambake. 9 Q Would that be Andreas Heldal-Lund's site? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And is this the person -- or the entity, that 12 Clambake, Operation Clambake, is that where the 300,000 came 13 from that went into the LMT funding? 14 A Yes. 15 THE COURT: Immediately thereafter, into 16 Mr. Minton's pocket, is that correct? 17 THE WITNESS: I don't know if it went into his 18 pocket, your Honor, but it went into his account. 19 THE COURT: Kind of a real quick turn through 20 LMT? 21 THE WITNESS: Yes. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Now, there was talk about -- 24 THE COURT: Certainly LMT didn't consider it 25 income because it is not on its income tax return. 1526 1 THE WITNESS: Correct. 2 THE COURT: So whatever it was, it wasn't any 3 income or anything to LMT. 4 THE WITNESS: Right. 5 BY MR. FUGATE: 6 Q This particular website, is it a website where 7 there -- and I understand all that free speech, but there 8 are some pretty outrageous, hurtful things posted about 9 Scientology and Scientologists on that website, is that 10 correct? 11 A Yes. 12 THE COURT: I don't see the one on there that 13 we've been looking at -- everything I think I have 14 seen introduced is from one that doesn't seem to be 15 on there. 16 MR. FUGATE: ARS? 17 MR. WEINBERG: That is a different -- you mean 18 on the thing? 19 THE COURT: The stuff you all have been 20 introducing and the one I see mentioned from time to 21 time. 22 MR. WEINBERG: I'm told it's a newsgroup, maybe 23 she can explain, which is different than a website. 24 But beyond that, I don't know. 25 THE COURT: Is that not one of these? 1527 1 THE WITNESS: All right. Talking about 2 ALT.religion.Scientology? 3 THE COURT: Yes. 4 THE WITNESS: These things listed are websites. 5 THE COURT: I'm real stupid. I don't 6 understand it. I just know enough to go in there if 7 I want to see something like searsroebuck.com, 8 C-O-M. 9 I don't know what that is. That is one of 10 these? 11 THE WITNESS: That is one of these. 12 Alt.religion.Scientology is a different thing. It's 13 called a newsgroup, and you access a newsgroup in a 14 different way. 15 THE COURT: So if I went in and typed in 16 ALT.religion.Scientology, something wouldn't come up 17 with the page on it? 18 THE WITNESS: Well, I believe if you asked 19 Mr. Minton that question, he could explain it to 20 you. 21 THE COURT: Okay. So that is why it's not here 22 is because it's something different? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes. 24 THE COURT: Okay. So I can't go in and read -- 25 if I wanted to go in and read whatever that is, 1528 1 those postings are, I would not do that the -- the 2 only way I know is to go up here and put in what I 3 want to see and click "Enter" and I get a page. 4 That is not how I would get this site? 5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, as I understand it, 6 you have to go through one extra step. And I don't 7 know what it is. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 THE WITNESS: But Mr. Minton could explain it 10 to you. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Your Honor, is it possible that 13 we could turn Ms. Brooks' microphone on or get her a 14 little closer to the mike? 15 THE COURT: Sure, I don't know if it is on. I 16 tell you what we can do is it's been about an hour 17 and a half, my court reporter would probably 18 appreciate it, let's take a break. Twenty-minute 19 break. 20 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken.) 21 ____________________________________ 22 THE COURT: All right. Continue. 23 MR. McGOWAN: Judge, if I may interrupt a 24 moment? 25 THE COURT: Yes. 1529 1 MR. McGOWAN: If it please the Court, the Court 2 asked Ms. Brooks to go through, compare the -- those 3 signed affidavits which are in evidence, some 4 apparently are coming in now, to the exhibits -- I 5 think they are, more or less, 20 through 29 that 6 were proffered by the plaintiff but not in evidence 7 and not authenticated. 8 THE COURT: Those that we've seen that have a 9 signature on it. 10 MR. McGOWAN: Right. 11 THE COURT: I don't know if they are. But if 12 they're part of that -- 13 MR. McGOWAN: I have got what came from the 14 Internet, and I'm in the process of working with 15 plaintiff's counsel to get the numbers and what is 16 in and what is not in straightened out. 17 And I would just ask, to speed this along, I 18 know at some point they are going to want to call 19 her back and compare these things to see if they 20 match, or to see which is which. 21 If I can be provided a copy of such affidavits 22 as either side has, signed by her, perhaps we can 23 help -- 24 THE COURT: Once we get the signed affidavits, 25 we don't need those things off the Internet. 1530 1 MR. McGOWAN: Correct. 2 THE COURT: I assume those can be withdrawn, 3 and the ones that are signed would go in evidence. 4 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. 5 MR. FUGATE: From our side of the equation, 6 I'll locate the ones I'm aware of, and she can look 7 at them with Mr. McGowan and -- 8 THE COURT: I wouldn't waste your time 9 comparing them to the Internet. To be truthful, if 10 we have the signed ones -- 11 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. 12 THE COURT: -- we'll just take the other one 13 out and agree that is the one that doesn't count, 14 and what is signed is the one that counts. So I 15 wouldn't go through it line by line. 16 MR. McGOWAN: That is fine, too. If somebody 17 has them and it can save some time, we can get this 18 done. 19 THE COURT: Mr. Dandar, if you have any signed 20 affidavits, as you look through your pleadings and 21 things, if you might do the same thing, show them to 22 counsel? 23 MR. DANDAR: Judge, we're, I believe, getting 24 in signed affidavits of Ms. Brooks that will 25 represent the ones that came off the website. 1531 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. McGOWAN: Just so I can get a copy, that 3 will speed things along. Ms. Brooks has -- 4 THE COURT: If you can get a copy. But, again, 5 I don't think we need to, at that point, go through 6 the ones that were on the Internet because those can 7 just be withdrawn. 8 MR. DANDAR: And substituted with the ones that 9 are signed. 10 THE COURT: And substituted, so that what is 11 signed is what will be the affidavit. 12 MR. McGOWAN: Exactly. All right? 13 THE COURT: Okay. 14 MR. McGOWAN: I'm just trying to keep her from 15 having to read it on the stand. I know the Court 16 instructed her to read one in the break. And her 17 emotional state is such now, I don't know that -- 18 THE COURT: The one I wanted to know, the one 19 she said in a letter she said was not true, that is 20 the one I wanted to know what wasn't true and what 21 was true. I don't believe she said anything else 22 wasn't true. 23 MR. McGOWAN: She didn't. And I can tell you, 24 during the break she was not able to go -- look at 25 that affidavit. You asked her to, but she's -- her 1532 1 emotions are coming to the surface. It has been a 2 long number of days and she has just been unable to 3 do it. 4 THE COURT: Okay. She can do it overnight 5 or -- 6 MR. McGOWAN: Fine. 7 THE COURT: Overnight, or over the weekend, 8 whatever. At some point in time, it needs to be 9 done. 10 MR. McGOWAN: Absolutely. But I wanted to tell 11 you, it didn't get down. 12 THE COURT: There is no rush. I didn't know if 13 it could be done over the break. 14 MR. FUGATE: All I'm trying to do is eliminate 15 areas I'm aware of. And they can do whatever they 16 want in any amount of time. I really don't care. I 17 just want to get through -- 18 THE COURT: Me, too. 19 MR. FUGATE: -- through this. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q I put up on -- Ms. Brooks, I put up on the witness 22 stand in the break, to save a little time and gave to 23 counsel, the next two exhibits, and which would be 24 consecutively -- 25 THE CLERK: 82 and 83. 1533 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q We were talking about Operation Clambake and the 3 website. These are fairly recent postings from the 4 Operation Clambake website. 5 And we had been talking about a time line. I 6 direct your attention to the short one. And if you will 7 note -- 8 THE COURT: The short one is Number 82? 9 MR. FUGATE: 82. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q It says: "Slicer (phonetic): Monday, March 22, 13 2002, 10:16 a.m. Justice defined? I wonder who is going to 14 execute Miscavige. Note to Clam higher-ups seeking position 15 by vacancy. I charge 50,000 minus 5,000. Asshole discount 16 for him." 17 Is that the sort of postings that one would see on 18 Operation Clambake? 19 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Relevance. This is 20 from Norway. This is not LMT, Minton, Brooks or 21 especially the estate. 22 THE COURT: I'm going to allow it, anyway. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q Have you seen this posting before? 25 A Mr. Fugate, I haven't seen this one specifically. 1534 1 But I have seen so many postings in such bad taste that I 2 really got to the point where I don't even go to these 3 websites anymore. 4 Q And -- I understand. And I understand your 5 testimony the other day is you are trying to extricate 6 yourself from all of this. 7 But the point that I'm making here in Exhibit 81 8 and 82 are many postings have involved death threats to 9 Mr. Miscavige or family members, correct, that you have 10 seen? 11 A Well, many postings have involved insults and 12 threats and very inappropriate language about Mr. Miscavige. 13 Q And if we were doing a balanced sort of time line 14 for harassment, those sort of things should go on that, as 15 well, correct? 16 A Well, if you were going to do a time line that 17 included all critics harassment -- 18 Q It would be massive? 19 A -- it would be -- yes. I would never even try to 20 attempt to put that together. 21 THE COURT: Which way are you going here? All 22 critics harassment of the Church? Or all Church's 23 harassment of the critics? 24 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I'm saying, 25 there is a very large community of critics of 1535 1 Scientology. I don't -- there is a lot of it I 2 don't even know. But on the Internet they all come 3 together and they say a lot of very nasty things. 4 And Mr. Fugate's point is that of all of the 5 nasty things and harassive things that all of the 6 critics have done against the Church of Scientology, 7 it would tend to balance things out. I mean, it 8 wasn't just limited to the LMT, I believe. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Let me ask you a specific question to get to a 11 point. 12 There was never anything -- I didn't see anything 13 in your time line that you produced and posted on LMT that 14 reflected anything about a death threat to you or 15 Mr. Minton, is that correct? Nothing like that was ever 16 done or posted, was it? 17 A I believe you are right. 18 Q Now, we were talking about Keith Henson a moment 19 ago. And are you aware that Mr. Henson has, in fact, made 20 serious threats against the Church and was, in fact, 21 convicted of such threats? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And that is the same Mr. Henson that was on the 24 LMT? 25 A Yes. 1536 1 Q And is that the same Mr. Henson that was 2 represented by Graham Berry in litigation funded by 3 Mr. Minton? 4 A Yes. 5 Q And he has since fled -- he, Mr. Henson, has since 6 fled to Canada, as I understand it. Is that correct? 7 A Yes. 8 THE COURT: I think we did have testimony about 9 that already. 10 MR. FUGATE: If we did, Judge, I apologize. 11 MR. LIEBERMAN: That was Armstrong. 12 THE COURT: Oh. Sorry. 13 MR. LIEBERMAN: They both fled to Canada. 14 THE COURT: I knew somebody fled. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q So Mr. Armstrong, who is also on the LMT advisory 17 board, has also fled to Canada, as well -- 18 A Yes. 19 Q -- as Mr. Henson? 20 A Yes. 21 Q Now, also we talked about picketing and picketing, 22 one side and the other. I'm going to approach you and show 23 you a photograph, which would be Defendant's Exhibit Number? 24 MR. WEINBERG: 84. 25 THE CLERK: 84. 1537 1 THE COURT: 83, is this more of the same, 2 distasteful posting? 3 MR. FUGATE: Yes. This would be 84. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Can you identify that photograph and the folks 6 that are in it? 7 A Mmm, the folks in it I can identify. 8 Q Okay. 9 A From left to right, Bob Minton, myself, Patricia 10 Greenway in the white sunglasses, Peter Alexander, and I 11 believe that is Ray Emmons. 12 Q Is that Mr. -- that is Ms. Greenway, for the 13 record (pointing), so we can identify her. Correct? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And Mr. Emmons was in the courtroom. And he's 16 picketing in this photograph? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And, of course, Peter Alexander and Ms. Greenway, 19 you have indicated who they were, that they were members of 20 the board. 21 Mr. Emmons also is part of Mr. Dandar's trial 22 team, he's the investigator for Mr. Dandar, correct? 23 THE COURT: Who? 24 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Emmons, the fellow here in the 25 plaid shirt that has a sign that said: "Scientology 1538 1 is Evil, hate masquerading as a church." 2 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the compound 3 question, and identifying an independent private 4 investigator as part of someone's trial team. 5 THE COURT: If she can answer the question, she 6 can answer it the best she understands or knows. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Do you know whether or not Mr. Emmons is an 9 investigator working for Mr. Dandar in the wrongful death 10 case? 11 A I believe he is. 12 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Competence. No 13 foundation. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. She doesn't know. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q And he was working for the LMT -- or was he 17 working for the LMT? 18 A He did some work for the LMT. 19 Q And he's on the advisory committee, I believe, 20 right under Mr. Dandar. Correct? 21 A Yes. 22 Q And he was the gentleman sitting in the back here 23 a little while ago in court. Correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q So there is no misunderstanding, that was a 1539 1 photograph of picketing that took place. Correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Where was that picketing in front of, if you know? 4 A It's possible that it was a photograph taken in 5 front of the Sand Castle. 6 Q And the Sand Castle, for the Court's benefit, is 7 what? 8 A It's a building owned by the Church of Scientology 9 where public Scientologists stay in Clearwater. 10 Q Now I'm going to move to a different topic, and 11 that is in the complaint that is currently -- the current 12 version of the complaint, the fifth amended complaint. 13 There is an allegation in there that Lisa 14 McPherson wanted to leave Scientology. If you have it there 15 in front of you -- 16 A I do. 17 Q -- I believe it's enumerated Paragraph 31A, if I'm 18 not mistaken. And -- I haven't committed it to memory, but 19 I think that is accurate. 20 A Paragraph what? 21 Q 31A, I believe. 22 A Okay. 23 Q Did Mr. Dandar tell you that he had evidence and 24 information that Lisa McPherson wanted to leave Scientology 25 and wanted to get out, that she was being held captive? 1540 1 MR. DANDAR: Objection. That is work product. 2 That has not been waived. 3 THE COURT: Sustained. 4 MR. FUGATE: I'm sorry? 5 THE COURT: I said sustained. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Did you ever see any evidence that -- outside of 8 working with Mr. Dandar, that Lisa McPherson wanted to leave 9 Scientology, to your recollection? 10 A Not to my recollection. 11 Q Did Mr. Dandar ever show you a transcript of a 12 Fannie McPherson conversation, a taped conversation, that he 13 took of Fannie McPherson? 14 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Work product. 15 MR. FUGATE: Well, it's been posted on the 16 Internet. 17 THE COURT: Has it? 18 MR. FUGATE: I think there is a Mr. Minton 19 posting about it, he saw it, heard it. That is why 20 he wanted to fund -- 21 THE COURT: Then overruled. As far as the 22 document itself, if it has been posted, then it is 23 certainly not work product. 24 MR. HERTZBERG: Judge Quesada found there was 25 no work product privilege -- 1541 1 THE COURT: I could care less what Judge 2 Quesada has found. Please don't tell me what 3 another judge has found. 4 MR. WEINBERG: It wasn't a finding, but it's 5 part of this record. 6 THE COURT: Well, Lord have mercy, there has 7 been a jillion judges on this. And I can tell you, 8 if there is another one, they are not going to hear 9 what I found, either. 10 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'm going to show you, 11 Judge, and the witness -- 12 THE COURT: I have seen it so I know -- 13 somehow, I think it's in this record already. 14 MR. FUGATE: It is. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q -- a copy of the transcript, and ask you if you 17 have seen that? 18 MR. FUGATE: And that would be 85, Madam Clerk? 19 THE CLERK: Yes. 20 MR. FUGATE: Did I give it to you, your Honor? 21 MR. DANDAR: Well, you know, there is a much 22 better copy of this transcript in the record. This 23 is half a page of the page on Page 1. 24 MR. FUGATE: Well, I have got -- this is the 25 one we got in discovery from -- or in the public 1542 1 records request from the Florida Department of Law 2 Enforcement. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q My question, really, is have you seen this before? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And were you aware of any other tape recording or 7 transcript of any conversation purportedly between 8 Mr. Dandar and Fannie McPherson other than this? 9 A Between Mr. Dandar and Fannie McPherson? 10 Q Yes. Other than this? 11 A No. 12 Q And in reading that, do you see anywhere in this 13 transcript where Fannie is relating that Lisa is leaving 14 Scientology? 15 A Mmm, no. I thought there was another friend of 16 Lisa's or somebody who had said something in a depo. 17 Q Regardless of whatever that is, my question is 18 this is the only -- or a better transcript, perhaps, but 19 this is the only transcript that you have ever seen that 20 purports to have any conversation between Mr. Dandar and 21 Fannie about Lisa McPherson leaving Scientology. Is that 22 correct? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And -- 25 THE COURT: But you were aware of the 1543 1 deposition -- or the conversation between -- 2 allegedly between Ms. McPherson and a friend of hers 3 in California? 4 THE WITNESS: Something. 5 THE COURT: And you saw that? 6 THE WITNESS: Mmm, I think I was told about it. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q And if I asked you, I'm being repetitious, but do 10 you see anything in here that says Fannie tells Mr. Dandar 11 that Lisa is leaving Scientology? 12 A Mmm, no. 13 MR. DANDAR: The document speaks for itself. 14 Maybe if you can read the first page. 15 MR. WEINBERG: Just for the record, it is our 16 Exhibit 52 in the notebook that we filed, which is a 17 good copy. 18 THE COURT: I have seen a good copy and I have 19 seen this one, too. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Right. That one is Exhibit 51. 21 THE COURT: Okay. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Or -- I don't know. Anyway, 23 Exhibit 52 is a good copy. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q You see, about three-quarters of the way down the 1544 1 page, where it says: 2 "Was she going to stay longer?" 3 "She was going to stay two weeks this time, over 4 Christmas." 5 A Yes. 6 Q And that would indicate she was returning back to 7 Clearwater after the holidays, as far as you can tell? 8 A Yes. 9 MR. LIROT: Objection. Speculation. 10 THE COURT: In that respect, the document 11 speaks for itself, counsel. 12 You seem to throw certain things at us, because 13 I know I have certain copies, I don't need the 14 extras, so I'll be happy to give this back, or throw 15 it out. 16 MR. FUGATE: You can leave it up there and I'll 17 collect it at the end. 18 THE COURT: It is going in the waste basket or 19 back to you right now. 20 MR. FUGATE: Throw it in the wastebasket. 21 THE COURT: Because I know I have at least two 22 or three copies of it. 23 MR. FUGATE: All right. Moving along. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Now, you say you knew Jesse Prince while he was in 1545 1 the Church of Scientology? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you know that he was in 1987 removed from his 4 position on RTC? 5 A I did know that. 6 Q And do you know who removed Jesse Prince? 7 A Only because of what Jesse Prince told me. 8 Q What did Jesse Prince tell you? 9 A He said that Mr. Miscavige removed him. 10 Q That Mr. Miscavige removed him from his post and 11 position at RTC? 12 A Yes. 13 Q And that was in 1987, as far as you understood? 14 A Mmm, yes. 15 Q And as far as you know, he never worked for RTC 16 again, correct? 17 A Yes. 18 THE COURT: I'm sorry, the date? 19 MR. FUGATE: 1987. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q And according to your postings and other 22 information, I believe it says that he left then in 1992, he 23 left Scientology? 24 A That is what he told me. 25 Q All right. And did you know what Mr. Prince's 1546 1 position was in the last five years that he was in 2 Scientology? 3 A Mmm, when I saw him, he was a driver of some kind. 4 Mmm, I don't know that he ever specified what his position 5 was. 6 Q Well, he was not a high level member of any 7 corporate structure entity, to your knowledge, in the last 8 five years, as far as you know, or he told you, correct? 9 A No. I knew that he wasn't in any high level 10 position. 11 Q He was not? And so when he purports to be the 12 number two man in Scientology when he left, that is not 13 accurate, is it? 14 A Well, that actually -- the story behind that 15 legend is -- it comes from a hearing that I actually 16 attended in Denver. And it was Mr. Rosen who misspoke 17 during a hearing when he called Mr. Prince that. 18 Q In other words, Mr. Rosen apparently anointed him 19 the number two man, and that wasn't true? 20 A Yes. Matter of fact, it was quite a humorous 21 story that went around. 22 Q Well, I'll have to talk to Mr. Rosen about that. 23 But from your personal knowledge, he was not at the time he 24 left. Correct? 25 A In fact, he never was. 1547 1 Q That's right. And are you aware, as you sit here 2 today, that Mr. Prince, in fact, personally bears a grudge 3 against David Miscavige for removing him? 4 A Oh, he bears a very large grudge against 5 Mr. Miscavige. Yes. 6 Q Now, with your two affidavits that you filed, part 7 of what they both are talking about, as I recall them, are 8 concerns about violations of orders relating to documents 9 that needed to be produced by LMT. Is that correct? 10 A Yes. 11 Q And is that part of what also created a concern 12 with you in terms of things that you had had to straighten 13 out -- or whatever your terms were -- with the courts, as 14 far as what was happening with the production of documents? 15 A That was the worst part for me. 16 Q In fact, were you aware, and I couldn't date it, 17 but within a week -- sometime within the week of your second 18 affidavit, that the special master was releasing a report on 19 his research or observations of what was and wasn't at the 20 LMT? 21 A Yes. 22 THE COURT: Do we have those documents yet? 23 MR. FUGATE: The master's report? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: No. The stuff from LMT? 1548 1 THE WITNESS: Mmm, the hard drives were turned 2 over, your Honor. 3 THE COURT: I'm talking about all of the things 4 that had been ordered by court order to be produced, 5 that is videotapes, that is documents, that is on 6 and on and on. 7 MR. McGOWAN: Yes, everything that -- 8 everything that was at the LMT that was taken by Mr. 9 Keane, and I have reviewed it and released it, with 10 the exception of the privilege log, given to -- 11 THE COURT: I'm not talking about that. 12 MR. McGOWAN: Okay. 13 THE COURT: I'm talking about that which this 14 witness indicated had been in the hallway and was 15 whisked away by her lawyer, and also that which she 16 told me on the very first day of this hearing that 17 she knew where it was, and I said, "Well, go get 18 it," or "keep it," or "don't lose it or get rid of 19 it." 20 MR. McGOWAN: That was hard drives which had 21 been turned over to the special master. That has 22 been turned over. 23 The items in the hall were the unedited 24 videotapes. And I have not -- I have yet to hear 25 from Mr. Merrett. He was to have called me on 1549 1 Monday. And I have not heard from Mr. Merrett. 2 THE COURT: So the answer is no, court orders 3 have not been fully complied with yet? 4 MR. McGOWAN: That is correct. The videotapes 5 remain outstanding. 6 THE COURT: So whatever the concern of this 7 witness, she still needs to be concerned because 8 there is a court order out there that has not been 9 obeyed. 10 MR. FUGATE: May I inquire? 11 THE COURT: Of course, obviously, if she 12 doesn't have them, she doesn't have them. But I 13 thought she told me on Monday she knew where certain 14 things were. 15 Are you telling me that whatever she knew where 16 it was, it has been turned over? 17 MR. McGOWAN: Whatever she knew where -- she 18 knew where the hard drives were. They had been 19 turned over. 20 THE COURT: Are you going to have Mr. Merrett 21 here for us to hear from as to whether or not he's 22 going to stand behind this statement or whatever? 23 MR. DANDAR: I have not been assured by him yet 24 that -- 25 THE COURT: I'm sure not. 1550 1 MR. DANDAR: I have asked him and thought it 2 would be in his best interests to be here. And I 3 will ask him again. But he's beyond the power of 4 the subpoena, so -- 5 THE COURT: Well, he may not be beyond the 6 power of the Court. If I determine that he's a 7 material witness, I believe I could probably do one 8 of those. I know I can get somebody from out of 9 state -- if I can get another judge to sign off on a 10 witness rendition, and surely if I can get somebody 11 in Montana to deliver somebody down here to me, I 12 ought to be able to get some judge I know pretty 13 well up there in Jacksonville to tell Mr. Merrett to 14 get himself down here. 15 MR. DANDAR: I think that would be an excellent 16 idea. 17 THE COURT: I think we all want them. Don't we 18 all? 19 MR. McGOWAN: Sure. 20 THE COURT: Do both sides agree with that? 21 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 23 THE COURT: Then let's look into it. 24 MR. FUGATE: May I proceed? 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry, Mr. Merrett, I think, is 1551 1 interesting. He wants to -- 2 MR. FUGATE: I think he is, too. 3 THE COURT: -- talk over the telephone. 4 Perhaps we could chat with him in here over the 5 phone? That ain't going to happen. 6 MR. McGOWAN: If you asked him to bring the 7 tapes, if he has them, we would appreciate that. 8 THE COURT: I think the subpoena should be a 9 duces tecum, and tell him whatever he has that 10 belongs to LMT, he should produce them. 11 As I told you, I don't think he'll come in here 12 with a whole host of stuff. I just can't believe he 13 will. 14 MR. McGOWAN: I'll be very surprised. 15 THE COURT: I heard Ms. Brooks saying, maybe 16 naively, that he would. 17 MR. MOXON: As I mentioned yesterday, we don't 18 agree we have gotten all of the rest of the 19 material, either. And we'll address that -- 20 THE COURT: Yes. But I do -- 21 MR. FUGATE: Let me ask this -- 22 THE COURT: But I do mean for the orders to be 23 complied with. Even though they weren't my orders, 24 they were orders entered in this case. And they 25 need to be obeyed. 1552 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Ms. Brooks, let me ask you this. You would like 3 Mr. Merrett to come in and explain some of these areas, as 4 well, would you not? 5 A Certainly. 6 Q Now, my questions were going to be this. You had 7 indicated earlier that Mr. Dandar had told you that Judge 8 Quesada was opening up a whole new area of discovery into 9 LMT, and that was part of the belief or the thought at the 10 time, that there was something corrupt going on. 11 Do you recall that comment being made? And I 12 can't even remember which day it was made by you. 13 A Sometime in the past. 14 Q Now, did Mr. Dandar inform you that it was 15 actually Judge Moody that had entered the original orders 16 ordering LMT -- sanctions against LMT -- let's start with 17 the order on May 15, 2000, an order to compel against LMT? 18 A Mmm, Mr. Fugate, I can't remember the details like 19 this. But I know that in my mind, Judge Moody was -- 20 Q Let me show you -- 21 A -- doing what Mr. Dandar wanted him to, and the 22 other judges weren't. 23 Q According to what Mr. Dandar was telling you? 24 Correct? 25 A Correct. 1553 1 MR. FUGATE: May I approach the witness, your 2 Honor? 3 THE COURT: You may. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q I show you a copy of an order that is dated -- if 6 you'll -- whoops, extra copies here -- if you'll flip to the 7 back and tell us the date of the order. 8 A May 15, 2000. 9 Q And also attached to that should be another order 10 directly related to you May 12, 2000. Correct? 11 A Mmm, yes. 12 MR. FUGATE: Your Honor, I would offer those 13 two orders consecutively. I think you have -- just 14 so the record is clear -- 15 THE WITNESS: But if I could just say one 16 thing. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Uh-huh? 19 A I believe that Judge Moody was placing some 20 limitations on the discovery. And then all of the 21 limitations were taken off by Judge Quesada. 22 Q And I show you a May 23rd order, as well. These 23 orders were all issued by Judge Moody. Correct? 24 A Yes. I do remember this one. This was -- I 25 believe this was as a result of the very first time Mr. 1554 1 Merrett represented me in a hearing. 2 Q Okay. Hard to forget? 3 A Yeah. 4 Q And did Mr. Dandar inform you that the orders of 5 Judge Quesada were, in fact, orders that enforced Judge 6 Moody's original orders relating to LMT and you and the 7 discovery that needed to be produced? 8 A Mmm, I'm not sure I was aware of that. I 9 understood Judge Quesada issued new orders. 10 Q I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. 11 A I understood Judge Quesada had issued some new 12 orders. 13 THE COURT: Tell me why we're putting these in 14 the record. 15 MR. FUGATE: We don't need to, Judge. 16 THE COURT: They're obviously court documents. 17 They're part of your filing. As I said, I read them 18 and understood quite well what you were saying, that 19 is, that order after order was entered. And I have 20 done everything I can to say they need to be 21 complied with. 22 So I don't know that -- 23 MR. FUGATE: We don't need to put them in. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q If I represent to you that Judge Quesada entered 1555 1 one, two, three, four, five orders enforcing Judge Moody's 2 original orders, and finally on February 8, 2001 -- 3 THE COURT: Trying. Trying. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Trying to enforce, I should say. 6 THE COURT: Trying to enforce. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q -- you wouldn't quarrel with that, would you? 9 A No. 10 Q And, in fact -- 11 THE COURT: It's this hostile court system of 12 ours. It takes eight orders for a judge to enter 13 suggesting someone do what the Court ordered them to 14 do. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Do you recall being present at one hearing where 17 Judge Quesada was really exasperated and saying, "What am I 18 going to do to get you folks to comply with the orders that 19 had been entered over a year before"? 20 A I believe I was there. 21 Q So when Mr. Dandar said that it was Judge Quesada, 22 it was actually Judge Moody's orders that Judge Quesada was 23 enforcing. Correct? 24 A I guess that is correct. 25 Q And do you recall that Judge Schaeffer also became 1556 1 exasperated and indicated in some hearings that she wanted 2 the orders enforced, as well, Judge Moody's original orders, 3 without going through those? 4 A I believe Judge Schaeffer made that clear even 5 today. 6 Q And then do you recall at a point in time when 7 Judge Beach was appointed as a discovery judge to handle 8 discovery matters? 9 A I remember that. 10 Q And do you recall that Judge Beach, I think at a 11 proceeding you were present at, he found that LMT was 12 inextricably intertwined with the wrongful death defense, 13 and he was ordering the discovery to go forward, that you 14 needed to produce the documents you were being told to 15 produce? 16 A Actually, it was in the deposition of Mr. Minton. 17 And he said that he found that the wrongful death case, 18 Mr. Minton and the LMT, were inextricably -- 19 THE COURT: Intertwined. 20 A -- intertwined. 21 THE COURT: That is a term of legal art. 22 Inexplicably -- I can't say it, either. 23 Inextricably. 24 MR. DANDAR: It is inextricably. 25 1557 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Inextricably? 3 A Inextricably, yes. I -- 4 Q Would that have been the September 18 of 5 Mr. Minton -- depo of Mr. Minton? I'm sorry. 6 A It could have been. I was present for the 7 deposition, and I believe Judge Beach's comment had to do 8 with things that he was going to enforce on Mr. Minton and 9 the LMT. 10 Q I'm not going to make it part of the record. But 11 do you remember Mr. Moxon filed a motion to compel LMT to 12 return to deposition, for a finding of contempt and for 13 issuance of coercive sanctions to produce the records and 14 documents of LMT? 15 A Is that the one where he said I should be in jail 16 for -- every day until I did? 17 Q That is the motion. I'm going to ask you about 18 the order in a moment. 19 A I remember that part about the jail. 20 Q That part you remember, correct. And that would 21 be the order that was signed by Judge Beach on the 5th day 22 of September? 23 A That sounds accurate. 24 Q Well, I will ask you to take a look at that, too, 25 see if that refreshes your recollection. 1558 1 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I argue all of this is 2 outside of the scope. This has nothing to do with 3 the estate or me. 4 THE COURT: I think the relevance of it, 5 though, counselor, there has been some suggestion as 6 to why this witness is testifying as she is. And 7 she has testified to threats and fear -- well, not 8 threats -- I guess the court orders are threats, 9 that -- 10 A I felt threatened, your Honor. 11 THE COURT: -- that she was very concerned 12 about it. 13 And I think this is Mr. Fugate's attempt to 14 show she's not making this up. It is that -- 15 MR. FUGATE: You are absolutely right. 16 THE COURT: Your objection is overruled. 17 A I do remember this one. But there was a worse 18 one. But -- 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Well, in any event -- 21 A -- but I do remember this one. 22 Q This is in September of 2001 when you indicated 23 somewhere in your testimony that you were very concerned 24 about your continued involvement. Is this the -- sort of 25 the atmosphere that was leading to that concern? 1559 1 A Yes. Definitely. And -- and I was beginning to 2 realize that -- that the attorneys weren't -- Mmm -- 3 protecting me. I had thought -- I had thought that -- I had 4 thought that the attorneys would do something to make 5 everything okay. 6 THE COURT: Well now, really, I mean, I have 7 got to say something. When your lawyer is Mr. 8 Merrett, and you knew you were supposed to do 9 something, and he said, put it in the hallway and it 10 will go away, you, ma'am, could not have thought -- 11 THE WITNESS: That was a little bit after that. 12 And I'm just saying that I was beginning to realize 13 -- I'm not saying -- what I'm saying, your Honor, is 14 that I was beginning to realize -- 15 THE COURT: That isn't the kind of protection 16 you wanted, was it? 17 THE WITNESS: No. I was beginning to realize 18 that I was getting into serious trouble. That is 19 what I'm trying to say. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Now, I think I remember Mr. Minton saying 22 something, at the end of the April 5th proceeding, to Judge 23 Schaeffer like, "I wasn't getting the best of advice, I 24 apologize," or something of that nature. 25 At the point in time that these orders were 1560 1 entered -- or this order was entered in September -- 2 September 5, 2001 -- and I don't want to get into any legal 3 advice, but there were documents that were already 4 destroyed, were there not? 5 A Mmm, by this time, I believe we had already -- 6 MR. McGOWAN: I would object to the form, just 7 so we're clear -- 8 MR. FUGATE: I don't mean to imply -- 9 MR. McGOWAN: -- documents under subpoena? 10 Documents subject to an order? Because she 11 testified a lot of documents were destroyed. 12 A I was already in trouble about evasion of 13 discovery. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Pardon me? 16 A I was already in trouble about evasion of 17 discovery. 18 THE COURT: Or violating court orders. 19 A Or -- and/or violating court orders. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q And part of the motion that had been brought that 22 prompted the order was you were talking about the video 23 cameras that had been trained on the LMT, I think in 24 response to some of Mr. Dandar's questions. And, of course, 25 there was no secret that the video cameras were trained on 1561 1 LMT, was there? 2 A No. 3 Q In fact, there was a big to-do about Mr. Minton 4 and Mr. Merrett climbing up there, trying to take it down or 5 something at one point? 6 A Yes. It was in the newspaper, I believe. 7 THE COURT: This is the church's video camera? 8 MR. FUGATE: I think it was dueling video 9 cameras. But there was a video camera that was 10 trained on the front of the -- or, I guess -- I 11 guess it's the front, I don't notice, front or 12 back -- 13 THE WITNESS: Whatever. 14 MR. FUGATE: -- of the LMT. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Were you aware one of the things that had 17 happened, after the motion had been filed, there were 18 actually videos taken by those surveillance cameras of boxes 19 of documents being taken out of the LMT and that is what 20 prompted the September 5, 2001 order not to destroy any more 21 records? You were are aware of that, were you not? 22 A Mmm, I was -- I was aware that -- I was aware 23 about the video cameras seeing the shredding truck come when 24 I was getting rid of the copyright stuff. But actually 25 whether I was aware of the boxes too, I don't remember. 1562 1 THE COURT: It wasn't Mr. Merrett, was it, 2 taking out boxes? 3 MR. FUGATE: I would like to have a picture of 4 that. But I don't think that I remember seeing one 5 like that, Judge. 6 THE COURT: All right. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q Let's kind of -- if I can, and I want to ask you, 9 can you kind of generically tell us what -- what types of 10 documents and records were removed? I mean, can you break 11 it down? You have indicated video -- videotapes. Is that 12 correct? 13 A Yes. But there were -- well, videotapes -- 14 Q I'm just asking for categories. 15 A The videotapes I covered in my affidavit. 16 The hard drives I covered in my affidavit. 17 Q How about audio tapes, as well? 18 A Mmm, I don't know if there were any audio tapes 19 included in the unedited tapes. I don't really know. 20 Q And the computerized information, that category 21 was hard drives and disks. Correct? 22 A Mmm -- 23 Q CDs, I think. I'm not really too literate in 24 computers, myself. But I believe they are CDs. 25 A I believe there was some confusion about that by 1563 1 the special master, if those are the ones you are talking 2 about. 3 Q I'm talking about the report that there is a large 4 number of computer CDs that are -- 5 A Right. 6 Q -- are missing that he saw, and then the next day 7 they were gone? 8 A Right. Right. I looked into that. And to the 9 best of my knowledge, I believe that was -- if there were a 10 lot of CDs the first time he was there, and then they were 11 gone, they were blank. I don't know who took them, but -- 12 but I -- I don't know of any CDs with any information on 13 them that were -- I mean, I wasn't aware of any. 14 Q What you are saying is you don't have any personal 15 knowledge of -- 16 A I don't know about that. 17 Q -- what CDs were taken out? 18 A Right. 19 THE COURT: She doesn't know if there were any? 20 A And I looked into it. I mean, I tried to check. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Well, let's back up and talk about the videos, if 23 we can. There were videotapes and a lot of videotapes of 24 witnesses in the -- in the Lisa McPherson case that were at 25 the LMT, were there not? 1564 1 A Well -- 2 THE COURT: Are these -- there is a difference 3 in the witnesses. What I understood she was talking 4 about earlier, when she talked about this at some 5 length, talking about Scientology -- 6 THE WITNESS: Right. 7 THE COURT: -- and witnesses talking about 8 their knowledge, if any, of the Lisa McPherson case. 9 I have not heard one word that there were 10 witnesses or videotapes about people speaking of 11 their knowledge of the Lisa McPherson wrongful death 12 case. 13 MR. FUGATE: Let me see if I can -- 14 THE COURT: So -- so if that is the case, 15 then -- they talked a great deal about them. But if 16 it is these tapes that were going to reveal -- I 17 remember some people sitting around the table and 18 everybody talking about the Church and this and the 19 other thing. 20 And unless it involves Lisa McPherson, it's a 21 violation of an order that might need to be complied 22 with, but you don't need to get into such detail 23 with it. 24 MR. FUGATE: I'll try to move through this, 25 Judge. 1565 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q There were videotapes of Jesse Prince taken -- 4 A Yes. 5 Q -- over all of the period of the time the LMT was 6 in existence up until September 5 of 2001. Correct? 7 A There were videotapes of Jesse Prince, yes. 8 Q And Peter Alexander? 9 A Yes. 10 THE COURT: Is he a witness here? 11 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 12 THE COURT: He is? 13 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 14 THE COURT: What is he a witness -- what is he 15 for? 16 MR. DANDAR: He's a witness in this hearing. 17 He's also a witness in the case. 18 THE COURT: Oh. Okay. 19 BY MR. FUGATE: 20 Q Maria Piagardini (phonetic)? A video of her? 21 A Yes. 22 Q A -- videos of her? 23 A Well -- 24 Q She was listed as a witness in the case, as well, 25 right? 1566 1 A That I don't know. 2 Q Teresa Summers? 3 A Yes. 4 Q You already indicated there were 15 to 20 videos 5 of Ken Dandar doing something? 6 THE COURT: There were videos of Ken Dandar 7 that were ordered by a judge to be turned over? 8 MR. FUGATE: No. 9 THE COURT: Because if there is, we're going to 10 have to have another hearing on that. That cannot 11 happen. 12 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I think if I would 13 clarify. 14 I think my testimony was that there were 15 perhaps 15 to 20 video -- there was some 15 to 20 16 videotapes in which Mr. Dandar appeared. There 17 weren't tapes of him. 18 THE COURT: Of him discussing the case or 19 anything like that? 20 THE WITNESS: No. 21 THE COURT: I mean, it can happen but it surely 22 would have to be looked at in camera by a judge to 23 show it would have some privilege. 24 MR. FUGATE: I'm going to show you in a 25 moment -- 1567 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q At any rate, you had a full-time videographer at 4 LMT, that was Mark Bunker, correct? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And, Mr. Bunker, one of the things he did, was 7 compile videos of all sorts of things that he edited into 8 video presentations. Correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q In fact, he would do some and give them to the 11 Clearwater city government, or the police department, or 12 what have you, and it would have clips of maybe Dell 13 Liebreich, or clips about how bad the Lisa McPherson case 14 was, or how bad LMT people were being treated or things of 15 that nature. Correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q And then there were -- there were -- well, let me 18 ask you this. Do you have any idea -- I think at one point 19 I remember you saying there were probably hundreds of hours 20 of such videos, videos of all sorts of things that occurred 21 during that period of time? 22 A I believe that is the case. 23 Q As you sit here today, you couldn't tell me or the 24 Judge what exactly was on all of them. Correct? 25 A I couldn't really. 1568 1 Q And we don't have them, they're gone? 2 A Yes. 3 THE COURT: Is there anybody on any of those 4 tapes that was present when Lisa McPherson was in 5 the hotel during this episode? 6 THE WITNESS: Not to my knowledge, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: So whoever they are, they're people 8 discussing their thought processes or what have you 9 about what must have happened? 10 THE WITNESS: If they were even doing that. 11 THE COURT: Okay. 12 THE WITNESS: They were discussing -- there 13 were a lot of people discussing Scientology. And 14 that was part of the order. 15 THE COURT: Okay. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q Well, on the hard drive issue, do you recall -- I 18 think it's Plaintiff's Exhibit 15B, which is -- and I'll 19 show you a copy of it, the Teresa Summers letter? 20 A Oh, I remember that. 21 THE COURT: I remember reading it. 22 MR. FUGATE: All right. 23 THE COURT: I don't need another copy of it, I 24 don't think. We'll see where you are going. 25 MR. FUGATE: Otherwise, Judge, I'll check the 1569 1 trash can, because I think it has already been 2 produced to you. 3 THE COURT: I think it has. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q If you flip over to the second page, the paragraph 6 enumerated Number 3, I'll read to you: "Before I left the 7 office Thursday --" 8 A I'm sorry, excuse me, I'm sorry, where are you 9 reading from? 10 Q On the second page, a letter from Teresa 11 Summers -- 12 A Okay. 13 Q -- to you dated September 7 -- 14 A Yes, I see it. 15 Q "Before I left the office Thursday, you called me 16 and suggested that I might make the file containing the 17 Quirino report accessible only to me. You instructed me to 18 telephone Bob, after checking with John Merrett, and tell 19 him to install a password that only I knew so that he no 20 longer could access the file." 21 I don't know who "he" is. Is that Mr. Merrett? 22 Or Mr. Minton? 23 A Mmm, I -- 24 THE COURT: She doesn't know because she didn't 25 write it. 1570 1 A The whole thing is so inaccurate. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, there was a Quirino report at the LMT, 4 correct? 5 A There was a Quirino report on her computer. 6 Q And you were aware, were you not -- 7 A Well, excuse me -- 8 Q I'm sorry? 9 A There was an E-Mail that -- well, this is wrong. 10 What she said is wrong. 11 Q Well, I'm going to ask you the question, though. 12 There was a Quirino report that was at the LMT. 13 Right? 14 A There was an E-Mail from someone to Teresa Summers 15 talking about this person Quirino in some way. 16 Q And there was a complaint made against Marcus 17 Quirino with Child Protective Services, wasn't there? 18 A To my knowledge, what happened was Ms. Summers 19 forwarded the E-Mail to someone, perhaps at Child Protective 20 Services. 21 Q In law enforcement? 22 A If Child Protective Services is part of law 23 enforcement. 24 Q Whatever it is, to Child Protective Services? 25 A She did forward it to someone official. 1571 1 Q And Marcus Quirino is a witness in this case, is 2 he not? 3 A Yes. 4 Q And -- 5 THE COURT: Who is he? What does he know? 6 MR. FUGATE: He's a member of the Church of 7 Scientology. And he compiled a report that was 8 provided to Mr. Dandar and to the State which 9 compiles a series of reports from caregivers. 10 THE COURT: From whom? 11 MR. FUGATE: Caregivers. 12 THE COURT: Caregivers? Okay. He's a witness, 13 therefore, for whom? 14 MR. FUGATE: He would be -- I suppose you would 15 say a Church witness. He was a Church staff member. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q But, at any rate, there was a complaint filed with 18 Child Protective Services -- 19 A As I said, I'm not sure there was a complaint 20 filed. I believe what happened was that that E-Mail from 21 that person was forwarded to them. 22 Q And whatever was at LMT is being passworded here, 23 according to Teresa Summers. Is that correct? 24 A Yes. 25 Q And were the hard drives -- to your knowledge, 1572 1 were they scrambled in any way, if you know, to prevent 2 others from, you know, being able to recover the data that 3 was on the hard drives? 4 A Mmm, I'm not -- I don't know of any hard drive 5 that was generally scrambled, no. 6 Q Well, have you seen the report of the special 7 master? 8 A I haven't. 9 Q Okay. How many computers were there at the LMT 10 when you closed down in September or thereabouts of 2001? 11 A Mmm, I couldn't give you an exact figure. But 12 there could have been as many as 10 or less. 13 Q And if the special master reports that hard drives 14 have been removed from 5 of them, would that be accurate? 15 A At least that many. I thought it was more. 16 Q And if the master's report indicates hard drives 17 had been scrambled and hundreds and thousands of files been 18 deleted, would you quarrel with that? 19 A I wasn't aware that had happened. I thought they 20 just had been removed. But I wouldn't quarrel with them. 21 Q Now, that would mean that the E-Mails that were 22 being generated during the pendency or life of the Lisa 23 McPherson Trust would have been destroyed. Correct? 24 A Well, what I thought had happened was the hard 25 drives had been removed but kept intact, in which case 1573 1 whatever was on those computers when the special master got 2 them back, they would have been able to see whatever it was. 3 I wasn't aware, and I think I would have been, but -- 4 Q Well, the E-Mail traffic -- and I know -- I would 5 assume you can't possibly know what all of the E-Mail 6 traffic was from ten computers. Is that right? 7 A Yes. 8 Q But using the computers during that period of time 9 would have been Jesse Prince, yourself, Bob Minton. 10 Would Mr. Dandar use the computers over at the LMT 11 when he was there? 12 A Mmm, he might have used it only a few times. 13 Q And I think I have seen some postings by 14 Mr. Minton where he indicates that he's communicated with 15 Mr. Dandar and he's communicated with Dell Liebreich via 16 E-Mail. Correct? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And so E-Mails like that would be -- 19 THE COURT: I thought Mr. Minton said he had 20 communicated one time, maybe, with Ms. Liebreich. 21 MR. FUGATE: Well, I'll let him testify to 22 that. 23 THE COURT: Yes. So, I mean, we just can't 24 have a record here that is like this, counselor. 25 MR. FUGATE: I'm just asking. 1574 1 BY MR. FUGATE: 2 Q Mr. -- 3 THE COURT: I mean, she doesn't know what she 4 doesn't know. 5 MR. FUGATE: All right. 6 THE COURT: And that is just as simple as it 7 can be. She can't tell you what is on those 8 E-Mails, except the ones she wrote or the ones she 9 saw. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Well, in addition to whatever E-Mails were 12 destroyed, there were paper documents that had been created 13 at the LMT that had also been destroyed. Correct? 14 A Mmm, yes. 15 Q And there were paper documents removed, as well. 16 Correct? 17 MR. McGOWAN: Again, your Honor, just as to the 18 form of the question, I object. I think she 19 testified there was a policy at some point to 20 destroy -- 21 THE COURT: Shred them all. I know. So if 22 that is his question, it would have no bearing on 23 this case. So -- so if you don't mind, let him ask 24 his questions. 25 A Mmm, I'm not sure what kind of documents you are 1575 1 referring to there. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Well, if there are videos of boxes of documents 4 being taken out during the pendency of the time from when 5 the motion -- 6 A Oh, I see -- 7 Q -- was filed, until the September 5 order was 8 entered, do you know what was in those boxes or -- 9 A I see what you mean. 10 Mmm, I -- I can tell you what I -- I can tell you 11 what I think that was. There was a large number of boxes 12 which I think was reported to the special master that had 13 nothing to do with the Lisa McPherson case but was part of a 14 library. 15 And Mr. Minton may correct this, and I'm sure he 16 will if I'm wrong, but I believe that those boxes had to do 17 with the library and -- and that we felt it was okay to 18 remove those boxes because they really had nothing to do 19 with any court order. 20 Q Well, did you remove them, or did somebody else 21 remove the boxes of documents? 22 A Well, I can't remember -- 23 Q Okay. 24 A -- who did. 25 THE COURT: Counsel, you are saying they were 1576 1 library materials. So when he's saying documents, 2 you are saying library materials. Are you talking 3 about books and pamphlets and things on, what? On 4 the Church of Scientology? Or -- 5 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I'm talking 6 about, this library -- what I call a library -- 7 consisted of books and periodicals, and also 8 documents like reports. 9 THE COURT: Now, what kind of documents were 10 they? 11 THE WITNESS: Well, reports from people. 12 Copies of Scientology directives of various kinds. 13 Mmm, letters from people. Press about Scientology. 14 It was just a collection of all kinds of 15 different information about Scientology that had 16 been collected over the years. All different kinds 17 of things. 18 And -- and I don't mean to be evasive here, but 19 I'm actually not sure what those boxes were that you 20 got on that video camera. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Let me see if I can focus you back then. There 23 was an okay to remove the library documents. And that came 24 in December of 2001. Correct? 25 A Okay. Well -- 1577 1 Q Correct? 2 A I have to rely on you for that. 3 THE COURT: That really isn't appropriate. 4 She's your witness. You really ought not to be 5 leading her. Let her testify and have her say -- 6 this is really pathetic. I don't know, but I'll 7 rely on you, counselor, when you are putting her up, 8 as a lawyer, for somebody she wants to make an 9 arrangement with. I just can't have that. 10 MR. FUGATE: Judge, let me make this clear. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q I was trying to focus your attention, as I said, 13 in my question, on the period of time from the filing of the 14 motion to the September 5, 2001 order by Judge Beach -- 15 A Okay. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be difficult 16 here. 17 Q I know. But all I'm asking -- 18 A But I don't really know. 19 THE COURT: Did you hear that? She doesn't 20 really know. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q And the special master's report was coming out 23 whether or not you filed any affidavits, is that correct, as 24 far as you know? 25 A Yes. 1578 1 Q And whatever it says, it says. Correct? 2 A Yes. But as I said, I haven't seen it. 3 Q But you knew, before you came in to file those 4 affidavits, that there was going to be a report talking 5 about document destruction at the LMT? 6 A Yes, I did. 7 Q And it was going to focus on you. Correct? 8 A I thought that is what would happen. 9 Q Now, remember when we were talking about the Jesse 10 Prince affidavit concerning end of cycle, and you indicated 11 to Mr. Dandar that was sort of over the top, as far as you 12 thought, couldn't be substantiated? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Let me show you a couple of videos. Do we have 15 them keyed up to go. Let me show you -- 16 MR. FUGATE: The first one. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Let me show you -- well, a video clip turned over 19 by Mr. Dandar. 20 A Will it be over there? 21 Q On this television. 22 A Can I go over there a little bit? 23 MR. FUGATE: If it is all right with the Court. 24 THE COURT: It is all right with me if she 25 can't see it from over there. 1579 1 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I can't see very 2 well. 3 THE COURT: All right. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q This is a video clip supplied -- produced by 6 Mr. Dandar when he purported to represent the LMT of an 7 unedited video from the LMT -- excuse me, edited video clip 8 from February of 1999. 9 And this was the only section of the video that 10 was produced by Mr. Dandar. I'll ask you to take a look at 11 that. 12 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll object. 13 ___________________________________ 14 (WHEREUPON, the video was played. Because of 15 the quality of the video, speaker identification is 16 not possible by the court reporter.) 17 You know, we could sort of go back to that, go 18 back to that feeling of death -- of looking forward 19 to death in some way. 20 Well, in fact, that's one thing you can do is 21 you -- 22 (Inaudible.) 23 -- you can repeat again. Remembering what we 24 spoke about, yeah, let's see, isn't it -- yeah -- 25 isn't it time we got beyond reason on that -- 1580 1 You can make some commentary -- 2 -- remembering about why you left? 3 What? 4 (Inaudible.) 5 I don't think so. 6 Hey, if you want to yourself, just go out and 7 go and take a look at a few Scientologists that work 8 in the orgs, look at their ashen fucking face, you 9 know, when they're not putting on that mask. 10 Look at John Carmichael sitting here in the 11 audience. 12 Yeah, look at these pathetic bastards. 13 (Inaudible.) 14 Yeah. 15 Looking forward to every minute. 16 Yeah, look at John Carmichael. 17 He doesn't even smoke. 18 Look at Maureen (inaudible.) You want to see 19 what it looks like to be a Scientologist? 20 Right. 21 That is what it looks like. 22 Look at those shining, smiling, happy faces 23 that they're going to put on for you. 24 Right. 25 Remember -- remember what my friend said he 1581 1 discussed in the RPF. He was looking forward to 2 dying. 3 Waiting to die. 4 Right. That's right. 5 And when he came back, which he knew he was 6 going to do because of Scientology reincarnation. 7 He was going -- 8 To make a person like that -- 9 Yeah. 10 Because they might reward him. 11 Yeah. 12 You may even want to tie it in with 13 Scientology's great practice, end of cycle, when 14 they just fucking kill themselves. 15 No. No. No. No. 16 No. No. No. No. But -- 17 No, Jesse. You don't know shit about that, 18 man. 19 But, you know, I'm gonna stay away -- 20 Who -- 21 When I come back -- when I'm here to stay. 22 Who do you know? 23 Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, you could 24 put -- 25 When did you ever hear that? 1582 1 Me? Many times. 2 (Inaudible.) 3 Stacy, Stacy, listen. Listen to me. 4 What? Tell me what you know. 5 Stacy. Jesse. Jesse, wait a minute. Wait -- 6 People being ordered to kill themselves. 7 What are you talking about? 8 Yeah, but listen, Jesse, Jesse, but listen, 9 John, Carmichael -- 10 They had conversation right there. They have, 11 they're going to have their own conversation about 12 this one day. 13 They're going to be playing tic tac toe. 14 Right. They're going -- they're going to be 15 talking about how long they're going to stay away 16 from Scientology after they die before they come 17 back, and what they're gonna have a chance to 18 experience in life, and whether they want to go out 19 and kill themselves in a race car so they don't 20 actually have to go back and work for Scientology 21 again without -- without another -- without another 22 break of 20-plus years. 23 I like that. I think that'd be good. I think 24 that'd be powerful. 25 I think it's a great idea. 1583 1 Talking about -- talking about llamas ready to 2 jump off the fucking cliff, man. 3 No, lemmings. 4 Yeah, them, too. 5 (WHEREUPON, this concludes the playing of the 6 videotape.) 7 MR. DANDAR: Judge, for the record, unless they 8 show me something, I did not represent LMT when 9 these tapes were produced. 10 MR. FUGATE: We can produce that for you. 11 MR. MOXON: Your Honor, I absolutely object to 12 that. Mr. Dandar was there when that tape was 13 produced. It was produced at one of the hearings. 14 This was a composite tape produced at one of the 15 hearings -- depositions of LMT by -- over at Wally 16 Pope's office when we had the deposition -- 17 MR. DANDAR: I didn't represent them, so they 18 can say whatever they want to. But unless they show 19 something in the filing, what they did is simply 20 hand me tapes I said the judge ordered for them to 21 produce. I only represented the estate. Then Dan 22 Leipold represented the LMT in the first deposition. 23 THE COURT: I don't know what the purpose. I 24 think he was going to ask her questions about end 25 cycle, so I don't even know why this is going on, to 1584 1 tell you the truth. 2 THE WITNESS: Is that -- is there another one? 3 MR. FUGATE: No. I'm going to ask you some 4 questions about that one first. 5 THE COURT: And my poor court reporter could 6 not possibly have taken down that conversation. So 7 this record should be very clear that -- 8 MR. FUGATE: I have a transcript we prepared 9 that we'll offer as one we prepared, and is -- 10 THE COURT: Actually, just give it to the court 11 reporter and then let her review that tape and look 12 at that, because if you are going to play a tape, 13 she really should have it on the record. And if 14 that -- if that is accurate, then she can actually 15 transcribe it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Yes. That is exactly what I would 17 recommend, the court reporter to listen to the tape. 18 THE COURT: But, Madam Court Reporter, you have 19 to look at that transcript and see, after you watch 20 that tape, if that looks correct. You can't 21 substitute that. You know what you need to do. I 22 don't need to give you instructions about that. 23 THE REPORTER: Yes. 24 MR. FUGATE: I am only offering it for 25 convenient's sake. 1585 1 THE COURT: Yes, I understand that. And I 2 appreciate it. And I have no reason to doubt the 3 accuracy of the transcript. I'm just reminding the 4 court reporter, under the new rules -- I guess they 5 are not so new anymore -- that the District Court 6 and the Supreme Court says they want it transcribed. 7 And so she's going to have to either review 8 that tape as many times as it takes, or review the 9 tape along with your transcript, and assuming it is 10 correct, she can -- I will allow her to use the 11 transcript to transpose into the record. 12 MR. FUGATE: Let me, if I can, then ask some 13 questions so we can identify this for the record. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Ms. Brooks, do you -- 16 THE COURT: Could I see the copy of the 17 transcript? 18 MR. FUGATE: Oh, yes. 19 THE COURT: Do you have an extra copy? 20 MR. FUGATE: I have an extra copy, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Thanks. 22 BY MR. FUGATE: 23 Q Do you -- excuse me. Pardon me. I had my back to 24 you. 25 Do you recall where the video was taken? 1586 1 A I believe this was at a Cult Info conference, 2 which is the name of an anti-cult organization. That would 3 probably have been in the beginning of '99, I think. I 4 think. I'm pretty sure, actually. 5 Q I think it was represented as being December 4 of 6 1999. Would that be -- 7 A December 4 of '99? 8 Q I'm sorry, I'm wrong about that. February of 9 1999. Excuse me. 10 A Yeah. 11 Q I'm skipping my videos here. 12 Who is depicted in the video? 13 A Mmm, there was Grady Ward, Bob Minton, myself, 14 Jesse Prince, and I heard the voice of Justine Janette. 15 Q Who? 16 A Justine Janette. 17 Q Who was videoing the proceeding? 18 A Mark Bunker. 19 Q So that would be sort of the type of videos that 20 were at the LMT, things like that? 21 A I would say probably so. Yeah. Some others like 22 that. 23 Q The principal folks that I am concerned about -- 24 did you see Jesse Prince in the video? 25 A Yes, sir. 1587 1 Q Did you see yourself in the video? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Did you hear Jesse Prince talking about let's talk 4 about end of cycle? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And what did you hear yourself say about that? 7 A I said, if I might say it a little more 8 eloquently, I said, "Jesse, I don't think you know anything 9 about that," or, "What are you talking about?" 10 Q And when you said to Mr. Dandar, the day before 11 yesterday, he was over the top and couldn't substantiate it, 12 is that what you meant? I mean, that -- 13 A Yes. I mean, Jesse and I both know that end of 14 cycle is not an order for a person to kill themselves. End 15 of cycle is -- the only thing I know about it, and I never 16 heard Jesse say he knew anything else about any other kind, 17 was as an assist for someone who is dying. 18 Q Now, let me show you another video, and this video 19 is from -- I had it correct this time, Judge -- December 4, 20 1999. 21 MR. FUGATE: Before it is played, it's a video 22 of Mr. Dandar, Judge. And he's addressing what I 23 understand is a group of critics and picketers on 24 December 4, 1999 before a December 5 vigil. 25 And I want to ask you -- so I don't think we 1588 1 can consider that to be a work product video. 2 THE COURT: I don't think so. 3 MR. WEINBERG: The media is there. 4 MR. FUGATE: I'll show it. Excuse me, hang on 5 a second. Do you need to step down to look at it? 6 THE WITNESS: Okay. 7 ______________________________________ 8 (WHEREUPON, the videotape was played. The 9 speaker, who is known to the Court Reporter, is Mr. 10 Kennan Dandar.) 11 I'm here to talk about the murder of Lisa 12 McPherson by a cult known as the Church of 13 Scientology. 14 I am not a solo practitioner. I practice with 15 my brother, and that is why we call it Dandar & 16 Dandar. 17 (Video stopped momentarily.) 18 MR. FUGATE: We edited this, Judge. 19 _____________________________________ 20 (Playing of the video continued.) 21 Jesse Prince. Another hero. A former 22 Scientologist. Former number two expert in the 23 world on the tech of Scientology. Got up the 24 courage and came out to talk about Scientology in 25 the summer of '98 when he graciously agreed to serve 1589 1 as a consultant and expert in the Lisa McPherson 2 case. 3 His bravery continued to rise when he finally 4 disclosed in an affidavit his experience in 5 Scientology and his eyewitness testimony of orders 6 being issued by David Miscavige, to a Scientologist 7 dying of cancer and other diseases, when the 8 Scientology tech wasn't curing him, orders written 9 to say end cycle. 10 I said, "Oh, come on, Jesse. I mean, show me 11 something in Scientology that says end cycle." 12 He opens up a Scientology dictionary. There is 13 the word, "end cycle," meaning to die. Die. 14 (WHEREUPON, this concludes the playing of the 15 videotape.) 16 THE WITNESS: Is that it? 17 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 18 THE COURT: Madam Court Reporter, did you do 19 that one all right? 20 THE REPORTER: Yes. 21 THE COURT: That one seemed a little slower and 22 it didn't have a lot of interaction. 23 MR. FUGATE: Yes. Cross talk. 24 BY MR. FUGATE: 25 Q Were you present at that media critic speech or 1590 1 whatever it was? 2 A Yes. 3 Q Was the media present, in fact, at that? 4 A The media? 5 Q Media. 6 A Mmm, I don't recall if there was any media there 7 or not. 8 Q Well, did you note one of the microphones had a 9 channel, I don't read it -- 10 A Oh, yeah. That must have been media. I don't 11 know if that was a TV or radio. 12 Q And that was the night before a vigil was set 13 in -- a Lisa McPherson vigil was set in Clearwater? 14 A Yes. 15 Q And the folks there, am I accurately describing 16 them as critics and picketers? 17 A Yes, for the most part. 18 Q Now, I'm going to hand you the "Dianetics and 19 Scientology Technical Dictionary." I have two marks there. 20 The first one is the copyright date. 21 Would you look at that. 22 A Okay. 23 Q What does it say? 24 A From the top? Or just the copyright? 25 Q No, what date is that edition? I'm sorry. 1591 1 A 1989. It says it has been reprinted. 2 Q Okay. And would you flip over to Page -- I think 3 it's -- 139. 4 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what is this? Is this a 5 regular dictionary? 6 MR. FUGATE: This is the dictionary that 7 Mr. Dandar was referring to in the video. 8 THE COURT: Okay. 9 MR. DANDAR: I object. There is no such 10 predicate for that. This is a 1989 edition. 11 THE COURT: Well, in any event, I don't know 12 whether that is the dictionary he was referring to. 13 What is it, a Scientology dictionary? Is there a 14 separate dictionary. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes. 16 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'll be glad to bring in the 17 latest one. 18 MR. MOXON: That is the latest one, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: Okay. 20 BY MR. FUGATE: 21 Q Would you look at Page 139. I have it marked. 22 And do you find end of cycle there? 23 A Yes. 24 Q And does end of cycle say: "Means to die or order 25 someone to die"? 1592 1 THE COURT: Why don't we just have her read it 2 to us and tell us what it says. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q What does it say? 5 A It doesn't say that. 6 THE COURT: Good, Mr. Fugate. 7 MR. FUGATE: I'm getting there, Judge. 8 A It says: "A finite stop." 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Does it say anything at all about ordering -- 11 THE COURT: Stop a second. Stop, S-T-O-P? 12 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: "A finite stop"? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor, "A finite stop." 15 THE COURT: I'm sorry. Go ahead, Mr. Fugate. 16 BY MR. FUGATE: 17 Q There is nothing there that says ordering to die 18 or to die. Is there? 19 A No, Mr. Fugate. As I told you, or somebody, 20 lately, that was asking me questions, it was Steve Fishman 21 who first defined end of cycle as meaning to tell somebody 22 to die. 23 Q Okay. And that was what you have described, I 24 think, as a fabricated scenario, to -- 25 A Yes. 1593 1 THE COURT: I'm sorry, what? 2 MR. FUGATE: End of cycle meaning ordering 3 someone to die. 4 THE COURT: What did she define as a fabricated 5 what? 6 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, what I was referring 7 to is the first time that I ever saw end of cycle 8 defined as ordering someone to die was when I read 9 Steve Fishman's book, "Lonesome Squirrel." 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 THE WITNESS: But I also want to remind the 12 Court about the assist context, that I also believe 13 I recall having seen that term, end of cycle, when 14 it's a hospice situation. And that is the only 15 context that I have ever seen that phrase in. 16 THE COURT: As I recall, I could be very wrong 17 about this, and if so, I apologize. An assist can 18 be for all kinds of things. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes. If you have a cold or if 20 you have hurt your finger or if you had a broken 21 leg. 22 THE COURT: Right. So when someone hears the 23 word "assist," they don't -- it is not necessarily 24 assisting someone to die. It can be an assist that 25 would be -- that would be kind of an unusual assist. 1594 1 THE WITNESS: That would be a very unusual 2 assist. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q Well, when you referred to the way Jesse Prince 5 defined end of cycle in his affidavit in support of the 6 fifth amended complaint in this case, that is what you were 7 saying was over the top and not accurate? 8 A Yes. 9 Q Now, let's talk about the isolation watch that you 10 and Jesse Prince were on that Mr. Dandar brought up today. 11 Can we do that? 12 A Yes. 13 Q I think he showed you a posting which was 14 Plaintiff's Exhibit 35. And he read: "But here is what I 15 have to say to you, DM. Jesse and I are both going to 16 testify on the Lisa McPherson trial. We did isolation 17 watches together." 18 Were there watches, or just the one? 19 A There was just one -- there was just one person. 20 Q Okay. So it says plural but it's the one. So 21 we're clear we're talking about the same one? I think you 22 said Teresa or somebody? 23 A Yes. If I used plural, it was only meaning within 24 that context of that one person. 25 Q "Remember? Remember, Teresa, DM? Remember how 1595 1 you were overseeing her handling on a daily basis, you and 2 Ray, to make sure she didn't become a PR flack?" 3 Do you remember you read that part of the posting? 4 A Yes. 5 Q Well, I think you have already indicated that 6 isn't accurate in the sense there was no reporting to David 7 Miscavige in that scenario at all. 8 A I had no knowledge of anything being reported to 9 him. I was saying that in that post suggesting the most 10 negative scenario. 11 Q And the affidavit I'm going to hand you up to look 12 at, make sure we're on the same one, is the affidavit that 13 was placed into this case by Mr. Dandar, but it was an 14 affidavit of yours from the Steve Fishman and Uwe Geertz 15 case. Is that correct? 16 A Uwe. 17 Q Uwe. I'm sorry. I'm not very debonair with my 18 names. 19 MR. FUGATE: I don't know if you need a copy, 20 Judge. 21 THE COURT: I don't, either. 22 MR. DANDAR: Is there an exhibit number? 23 MR. FUGATE: It is your exhibit to the motion 24 to add parties in punitive damages. 25 MR. DANDAR: The date? 1596 1 THE COURT: This is executed the 3rd of 2 January, 1994 in that case that was just identified 3 by Mr. Fugate. 4 But I believe this was the one that was 5 added -- was in the motion to add parties. 6 MR. FUGATE: And it was also the one supplied 7 with the August 20, 1999 Jesse Prince affidavit. 8 BY MR. FUGATE: 9 Q Correct? 10 A Mmm, I'm sorry, could you say that again? 11 Q Yes. I'm sorry. I saw you were reading. 12 This affidavit that was attached by Mr. Dandar to 13 the motion to add parties was also delivered to the Court 14 with the August 20 affidavit -- August 20, 1999 affidavit of 15 Jesse Prince. Correct? 16 THE COURT: If she knows that. I'm not sure 17 that is accurate, because this looks like it says 18 what -- what Mr. Dandar provided to me is notice of 19 filing affidavits and other documents in support of 20 plaintiff's motion to add parties. 21 Then it says -- gives notice of filing of the 22 recently obtained affidavit. And I did not notice 23 that Mr. -- that Mr. Prince's affidavit was one of 24 them. So I assume his was filed, and then these 25 were filed afterwards. 1597 1 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 2 THE COURT: I mean, I don't know. Maybe it 3 was, but -- 4 MR. FUGATE: So we're on the same page and 5 line. 6 THE COURT: Okay. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q If you would look at -- at your affidavit of 9 January of 1994, and the affidavit that I just handed you a 10 copy of Jesse Prince which is dated August 20, 1999, these 11 are the two affidavits I'm going to ask you questions about. 12 A Okay. 13 Q And you -- 14 THE COURT: Am I right, can somebody tell me 15 that? Because I did not find Mr. Prince's affidavit 16 in this -- in this -- this is, what, Mr. -- what 17 Mr. Dandar brought me? 18 MR. DANDAR: You are correct. 19 THE COURT: I mean, I have got Mr. Prince's 20 affidavit because you-all supplied it to me. 21 MR. WEINBERG: It was attached to the motion, 22 though, I believe. The Prince affidavit was 23 attached to the original motion. Then he filed -- 24 THE COURT: These are additional? 25 MR. WEINBERG: Right. So they all supported 1598 1 the motion to add parties. 2 THE COURT: I understand. 3 BY MR. FUGATE: 4 Q If you would flip over to Page 22 of your 5 affidavit, starting at Paragraph 64 through 69, take a 6 moment to read that. 7 A Through 69? 8 Q Uh-huh. 9 THE COURT: Is that a yes, Mr. Fugate? 10 MR. FUGATE: Yes. I'm sorry. It is a yes. 11 Correct. 12 Judge, if you'll bear with me, I'm nearly 13 finished. 14 THE COURT: Good. And then I certainly will 15 bear with you. You have gotten through this rather 16 quickly. 17 MR. FUGATE: Thank you. 18 THE COURT: Okay. Did you say through 19 Paragraph 69? 20 MR. FUGATE: Yes, your Honor. 21 BY MR. FUGATE: 22 Q Then I would ask you -- 23 MR. FUGATE: And I know this will take a 24 moment, your Honor, but I think it will speed things 25 up. 1599 1 THE COURT: Okay. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q If you would look at Mr. Prince's affidavit and 4 read Paragraphs 27 through 31, I'm going to ask you 5 questions about your 64 through 69 and his 27 through 31. 6 Tell me when you are done. 7 THE COURT: Through what paragraph, counselor? 8 MR. FUGATE: 31. 27 through 31. 9 A Okay. 10 BY MR. FUGATE: 11 Q Now, do those paragraphs from each affidavit 12 describe -- and I know it took a while to read it -- the 13 same isolation watch that you and Mr. Prince participated 14 in? 15 A I believe so. 16 Q And that is the only isolation watch that you and 17 Jesse Prince participated in, according to both your 18 affidavits. Correct? 19 A Yes. 20 Q In Paragraph 66 of your affidavit, you describe 21 the first step that you had was to isolate the person 22 completely from everyone else. 23 A Correct. 24 Q Is that correct? And from what you have read in 25 preparation for this case, that is what was done with Lisa 1600 1 McPherson, as well. Correct? 2 A Yes. 3 Q And the woman, Teresa, that you were caring for, 4 she was in, would you describe, a full-blown psychotic 5 incident? 6 A Yes. 7 Q And that is what you, I think, have seen described 8 as Lisa McPherson in this case. Correct? 9 A Yes. 10 Q And in your affidavit, I think you said about your 11 experience that this person thought she was someone else, 12 she was speaking in tongues, is that correct? 13 A Well, she was -- 14 Q Barking like a dog? 15 A -- barking. 16 THE COURT: Thought she was other people? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 BY MR. FUGATE: 19 Q In your experience in this isolation watch, this 20 woman tried to hurt herself. Is that correct? 21 A She was banging her head on the wall and things. 22 Q And in Mr. Prince's affidavit, I think you see 23 where he said that she had to be restrained, and he, in 24 fact, with others, helped restrain her to keep her from 25 hurting herself or others? 1601 1 A I think that was -- that was in mine -- 2 Q Well, did that happen? Let's make it -- move 3 along. 4 A Yes. 5 Q She was restrained to keep from hurting herself, 6 or others? 7 A Well, restraint -- I mean, we watched her. We 8 had -- as I said here, we had to watch her to make sure that 9 she didn't kill herself or hurt herself or hurt us or 10 whatever. 11 So to the degree that we needed to keep that from 12 happening, we did. But, I mean, she wasn't in a straight 13 jacket or something. 14 Q I understand. 15 A Okay. 16 Q I'm just asking in your experience in that 17 isolation watch, did you restrain the woman that you were 18 caring for? 19 A Yes. 20 Q And in your affidavit, if you would look at 21 Paragraph 68, it indicates she was never referred to any 22 mental healthcare practitioner. 23 Then you say why. You say: "Scientologists 24 believe all psychiatrists and psychotherapists are 25 completely evil. Hubbard preached the evils of psychiatry 1602 1 so thoroughly that no one in Scientology would ever consider 2 letting a mental health practitioner examine anyone, even 3 someone who was in the middle of a psychotic episode." 4 Do you see where you have written that? 5 A Yes. 6 Q And at the time you were caring for this woman, 7 you believed and followed that policy. Correct? 8 A Yes. I did. 9 Q And at that time in this isolation watch you 10 described, you would never have thought about taking this 11 woman to a psychiatrist, would you? 12 A It didn't even occur to me. 13 Q And as far as you know today, that is still the 14 beliefs of Scientology? 15 A I'm sure. 16 Q And I think you say in your affidavit that in your 17 experience in caring for this woman -- 18 THE COURT: Well, now, are we going to let her 19 testify what her beliefs are today? If we are, then 20 we'll have to let her testify to her beliefs on both 21 sides. 22 MR. FUGATE: Let me back up. 23 BY MR. FUGATE: 24 Q When you left Scientology, that was the belief 25 that was in place that would you not take -- when you were 1603 1 caring for this woman, you would not have taken her to a 2 psychiatrist. Correct? 3 A That is correct. 4 THE COURT: And I really don't think that is at 5 issue, either, to be honest. 6 MR. FUGATE: I'm just trying to establish that. 7 BY MR. FUGATE: 8 Q I think you said the only thing she was given to 9 try to calm her down was a mixture of calcium and magnesium 10 to help her relax and sleep? 11 A Yes. 12 Q This is in your experience in this isolation 13 watch? 14 A Yes. 15 Q Correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q I think you also indicated in there that she 18 became exhausted, that she could hardly sleep and became 19 exhausted. Correct? 20 A Yes. 21 Q And is that what you saw that happened to Lisa 22 McPherson, as you read through the reports? 23 THE COURT: What are you asking her, if she 24 read through the -- 25 MR. FUGATE: Caregiver reports. 1604 1 THE COURT: -- the caretakers reports? 2 MR. FUGATE: Yes. 3 A That is what seemed to be happening. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q Now, in your isolation watch, this went on for how 6 long, do you recall? 7 A Mmm, I put in here several weeks. I think 8 perhaps -- perhaps two to three weeks. 9 Q And that is a similar period of time that we've 10 been talking about with Lisa McPherson, as far as you know 11 from the caregiver reports, I think 17 days is what it adds 12 up to? 13 A Yes. 14 Q Pretty much on point thus far with what you 15 experienced and what you have read about with Lisa 16 McPherson. Right? 17 A Yes. 18 Q And when this woman, Teresa, became exhausted, you 19 didn't take her to the hospital, did you? 20 A No. 21 Q And she was in an introspection rundown, was she 22 not? 23 A Yes. 24 Q Did you say in your affidavit you read up to 25 determine what needed to be done to take part in an 1605 1 introspection rundown for the person? 2 A Yes. 3 Q I think you said in there that after several weeks 4 and completing the introspection rundown, that this woman 5 came out of her psychotic state and went home. Is that 6 correct? 7 A That is right. 8 Q And, again, this is the only introspection rundown 9 you and Jesse have participated in. Correct? 10 A Yes. 11 THE COURT: Well, wait a minute. Wait a 12 minute. I don't understand that, because I thought 13 when I read this thing, "went home," I thought home 14 would be back at Scientology. That would have been 15 where her home was. 16 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: I gathered this was she was sent 18 out of Scientology and went home to her family. 19 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 20 MR. FUGATE: I'll get to that. 21 THE COURT: Am I reading that -- what you said 22 in your affidavit, correctly? 23 THE WITNESS: Yes, your Honor. 24 MR. DANDAR: Judge, I'll object to the way the 25 question is formed, because this is the only 1606 1 isolation watch she and Jesse Prince did together. 2 There is more isolation watches, I believe, in his 3 affidavit. 4 THE COURT: And she testified to that. That is 5 what she's talking about. 6 MR. DANDAR: Oh, okay. 7 MR. FUGATE: And that is what I'm asking her 8 about. 9 THE COURT: Right. 10 MR. FUGATE: What they did together, so there 11 is no mistake or confusion. 12 BY MR. FUGATE: 13 Q And, frankly -- well, first of all, I was looking 14 down. Did you say that to your understanding she went home 15 to her family, this woman? 16 A Yes. 17 Q Okay. 18 THE COURT: Was she kicked out of Scientology 19 after this was over? 20 THE WITNESS: Your Honor, I don't know if she 21 was still a Scientologist or not. I believe she was 22 no longer in the Sea Org. I don't know -- 23 THE COURT: Do you know if she ever came back 24 to Scientology. 25 THE WITNESS: I don't know. 1607 1 THE COURT: I don't know if you -- if you get 2 kicked out. I don't know if that is a bad term. I 3 apologize. 4 MR. FUGATE: I'll cover all that, if you bear 5 with me. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q And at the time you participated in this isolation 8 watch, you thought you were caring for the person, did you 9 not? 10 A Yes, I did. 11 Q And it was a difficult experience, as you describe 12 in here, as far as what happened to her and what happened to 13 you in caring for her, is that correct? 14 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. 15 THE COURT: Overruled. 16 A Yes. 17 BY MR. FUGATE: 18 Q Now, did you, in fact, receive a commendation for 19 caring for this woman? Do you remember? 20 A Mmm -- 21 Q I'm going to show you what has been marked -- 22 MR. FUGATE: What is our next exhibit, Madam 23 Clerk? 24 THE COURT: The two affidavits don't need to be 25 marked, Madam Clerk, because they're already in, 1608 1 maybe more than once. 2 MR. FUGATE: No, they don't. 3 THE WITNESS: I remember this. 4 BY MR. FUGATE: 5 Q You remember what? 6 A I remember getting this. 7 Q What is "this" that you are looking at? 8 A It was a commendation. 9 Q And you recognize it? 10 A I do. 11 MR. FUGATE: I offer it into evidence as our 12 next exhibit. 13 THE CLERK: 90. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q It says "Highly commended, Jesse Prince," correct? 16 A Yes. 17 Q "Commended, Stacy Young." Correct? 18 A Yes. 19 Q And we see "Susie Watson Taylor" under the "Highly 20 Commended." That is the person Mr. Prince identified in his 21 affidavit. Correct? 22 A I believe so. 23 Q And the comment -- it says: "Commendable. The 24 following people are acknowledged for their assistance on 25 handling end cycle that was above and beyond their duties. 1609 1 Their actions helped in the standard application of 2 Scientology technology on the introspection rundown -- 3 RD --" I assume "RD" is rundown? 4 A Yes. 5 Q "-- that made a being sane." 6 A That is what we felt we did. 7 Q And it says the commendation was entered by -- who 8 is the senior CS? What is that? 9 A That is Lieutenant Sandy Wilheim (phonetic). 10 Q Was that the senior case supervisor in this 11 matter? 12 A Yes. 13 Q Didn't come from David Miscavige, by the way, did 14 it? 15 A No. 16 Q And you weren't sending any reports -- I think you 17 already acknowledged that -- directly to him in this 18 episode, were you? 19 A No. 20 THE COURT: Was Mr. Hubbard still alive? 21 THE WITNESS: No, your Honor. 22 THE COURT: What does this mean when it says 23 "Authorized by LRH, communicator"? 24 THE WITNESS: An LRH thing, there is still -- 25 as far as I know, there is still such a thing as an 1610 1 LRH communicator. And gold is just the location. 2 Like there could be an LRH communicator for the 3 United States, or an LRH communicator for gold. 4 Gold is the name of the -- 5 THE COURT: Okay. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q I think you said this woman, in your affidavit -- 8 and I think Jesse Prince said in his affidavit -- that this 9 woman was a potential PR flack, I believe is the term, is 10 that correct? 11 A I believe Jesse said that. 12 Q Did you ever receive any instructions on this 13 watch to let this woman die, any orders? 14 A No. No. 15 Q She didn't die, either, did she? 16 A No. Of course not. We took as good of care of 17 her as we could. 18 Q And did Mr. Dandar ever challenge you or 19 Mr. Prince concerning whether you had factual support when 20 Jesse Prince talked about the end of cycle in the 21 introspection rundown? 22 A No. 23 Q Other than to say, "Look it up in the dictionary"? 24 A Not that I ever was present for. 25 Q And if you were asked to testify about that 1611 1 experience and were not a critic, you would have to say that 2 you were involved in a similar isolation watch to Lisa, and 3 you did everything you could to help care for her, correct? 4 A Correct. 5 Q And would you have to say that from what you have 6 read, the caregivers in this case were doing what they could 7 do to help Lisa McPherson? 8 A Yes. 9 Q And how would you feel if someone filed a lawsuit 10 against you in 1988 and accused you of standing by and 11 watching this person die? 12 THE COURT: Counselor, you can't really ask her 13 that. The lady didn't die. 14 BY MR. FUGATE: 15 Q Was it a trying experience, in any event, this 16 watch? 17 A It was exhausting. 18 THE COURT: I mean, that would be the absolute 19 insult to file something like that if the lady was 20 still alive and well. 21 MR. FUGATE: I was merely drawing -- 22 THE COURT: I understand. 23 MR. FUGATE: I thought you might, Judge. 24 THE WITNESS: Well, I can tell you -- 25 THE COURT: You know how I get at the end of 1612 1 the day. I don't like to hear stuff I don't need to 2 hear. 3 MR. FUGATE: I'm trying to get to the end of 4 the day, Judge. 5 THE WITNESS: I can tell you, when Jesse was 6 working on this isolation watch with me, he was 7 caring for this woman as much as he possibly could. 8 So were everybody else. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Jesse Prince was? 11 A Yeah. 12 Q Jesse Prince wanted to see that she was okay and 13 not hurt -- 14 A Of course. 15 Q -- and she didn't hurt herself or anyone else? 16 A Yes. But I think that these two passages, the one 17 in his affidavit and the one in mine -- Mmm, it's a good 18 example, your Honor, of what I have been trying to tell you 19 about, because the language that is used in his is very 20 inflammatory, and it's -- Mmm -- it's designed to back up a 21 particular agenda. 22 Q Let me ask you this. You were present in court at 23 a hearing where Judge Moody asked Mr. Dandar, "Do you have 24 any facts to support these allegations about Mr. Miscavige 25 ordering someone to die to avoid a public relations flack"? 1613 1 A Yes. 2 Q What did Mr. Dandar say? 3 A I don't recall his exact words. But I believe he 4 said something about, "I will, your Honor," or "I will --" 5 Q Would it refresh your recollection if he said, 6 "No, I never will because Scientologists all lie"? 7 A Oh, yes, it does, actually. 8 Q And when Jesse Prince provides an affidavit, and 9 you have indicated that these are written by you, and I take 10 it when you say he's over the top and can't substantiate it, 11 it's meant to infer something in the worst light against 12 Scientology. Correct? 13 A Which one are you talking about? 14 Q I'm talking about Mr. Prince's affidavit we've 15 been going through. 16 A Well, I think that is clear. 17 Q That is what you were arguing about with him over 18 there in that video? 19 A Yes, because it concerned me about Jesse that he 20 was willing to go a lot further than I was in the -- in this 21 practice that I have been trying to describe to the Court 22 of -- 23 THE COURT: I don't know, I read some pretty 24 hostile affidavits last night. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, well -- 1614 1 THE COURT: I may have read one on this, matter 2 of fact, that I think was quite a bit more detailed 3 than this. I don't know. 4 THE WITNESS: No, I think you read one -- 5 THE COURT: I mean, I saw one that was very 6 detailed about this -- about this -- whatever this 7 introspection rundown was. 8 THE WITNESS: Isolation watch. 9 THE COURT: Right, and I don't know if this is 10 it, but it seems like there was one much more 11 detailed. 12 THE WITNESS: Well -- 13 BY MR. FUGATE: 14 Q I'm sorry. Were you about to say something? 15 A Just to complete what I was going to say, I just 16 was often very concerned that Mr. Prince was willing to say 17 whatever someone wanted him to say, and I was also willing 18 to do that, but I felt that he went further than could be -- 19 Mmm -- substantiated. 20 Q And we just established that you got a 21 commendation for caring for this woman. Correct? 22 A Yes. 23 Q And you have just indicated it was a very 24 difficult and trying experience that you went through. 25 Correct? 1615 1 A For everyone. 2 THE COURT: Were there any commendations passed 3 out on the Lisa McPherson introspection rundown? 4 MR. FUGATE: I don't know, Judge. 5 THE COURT: Well, let's find out. 6 BY MR. FUGATE: 7 Q Let me ask you this question, Ms. Brooks. 8 THE WITNESS: I would doubt it very much. 9 BY MR. FUGATE: 10 Q Did you -- 11 THE COURT: As I remember, Mr. Kartuzinski said 12 he was demoted to a laundry man. 13 MR. FUGATE: I think that is accurate. 14 THE COURT: Well, I think it probably is. 15 BY MR. FUGATE: 16 Q Having gone through that and just having you 17 describe it as you just did, that is not the way you wanted 18 to portray it in your affidavits, though, was it, that 19 introspection rundown? 20 A You mean the way I just told you about it? 21 Q The way you just told me about it, I take it, is 22 the way it happened? 23 A Right. 24 Q But that is not the way you portrayed it in your 25 affidavits, is it? 1616 1 A No. 2 Q Or Mr. Prince, for that matter. Correct? 3 A No. Definitely. 4 Q Now, the judge asked, and I'm going to ask you, if 5 you ever wondered what happened to this woman that you -- 6 A Yes. 7 Q -- cared for? 8 MR. FUGATE: I would like this marked, your 9 Honor, if I may, as our next exhibit. 10 A Huh? Yeah. 11 BY MR. FUGATE: 12 Q Would it surprise you to find that she's alive, 13 well, successful in the real estate business, living in New 14 York, and still a devout Scientologist? 15 A It actually wouldn't surprise me. 16 Q Is the photograph, does that depict the same 17 person we've been talking about as the person you cared for? 18 A Yes. It does. 19 Q And there is a photograph of her standing, talking 20 to a gentleman there. By the way, I think one of the last 21 photographs. 22 A Just a minute. Let me look. Oh, you guys did 23 this one to show the date? 24 Q Well, it's kind of a terrible way to try to date a 25 photograph to put a New York Times from yesterday in it, but 1617 1 I asked, so there would be no confusion, the photograph be 2 taken with yesterday's New York Times. 3 A That is John Carmichael. 4 Q And John Carmichael is the man we heard referenced 5 on the tape that we heard earlier about Mr. Minton saying, 6 "Just look at John Carmichael." Correct? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And who is John Carmichael? 9 A He's a Scientologist that I have known since 1978. 10 Q And the photographs -- 11 MR. FUGATE: They would be a composite exhibit, 12 I don't know what the next exhibit number is, just 13 for the record. 14 THE COURT: Madam Clerk, what would that be? 15 THE CLERK: 91. 16 MR. FUGATE: And the affidavit, there is -- 17 THE COURT: Why don't we put the affidavit as a 18 composite exhibit, if that is all right. Is that 19 okay? 20 MR. FUGATE: All right with me, Judge. 21 THE COURT: Any objection? 22 MR. DANDAR: Relevance. 23 THE COURT: Overruled. I mean, it may not be 24 relevant to the trial, but it is relevant to this 25 hearing, and it may be relevant to the trial if 1618 1 there is one. 2 BY MR. FUGATE: 3 Q Is John Carmichael -- do you know him to be the 4 Scientology minister that was commended in -- there was an 5 article in the New York Times about for ministering to the 6 firemen and police officers at Ground Zero? 7 A Yes. 8 Q And so this woman, thanks to your care, is alive 9 and a Scientologist today. Is that correct? 10 THE COURT: Now, that is a little farfetched, 11 counselor. I don't know that she's capable of 12 testifying to that. 13 MR. FUGATE: I think the exhibit will speak for 14 itself, your Honor. 15 That is all of the questions I have. 16 THE WITNESS: It makes me glad that she's okay. 17 THE COURT: Absolutely. It makes me glad, too. 18 I suspect there is nobody in this room that doesn't 19 wish that Lisa McPherson was also okay. 20 THE WITNESS: Yes. 21 MR. FUGATE: Those are all of the questions I 22 have. 23 THE COURT: All right. Thank you -- 24 Can you do your recross -- 25 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 1619 1 THE COURT: -- in like 15 or 20 minutes? 2 MR. DANDAR: Let me go as fast as I can. If I 3 get yes and no answers, I can. 4 THE COURT: All right. 5 Well, you know, I'm tired. 6 THE WITNESS: I am, too. 7 THE COURT: She's tired, and I think that is 8 fair. So, you know what, save them for tomorrow. 9 We're going to quit for today. 10 Now, I presume we're heading home here with 11 this first witness. And so whoever your next 12 witness is, if it is Mr. Minton, then I assume we'll 13 be able to start tomorrow. Right? 14 MR. FUGATE: Mr. Minton, I'm telling you, will 15 be the next witness. And I see him in the back of 16 the courtroom. 17 THE COURT: Mr. Minton, be sure you are here 18 tomorrow morning, because I think he'll finish up 19 fairly quick. 20 MR. MINTON: Yes, your Honor. 21 MR. DANDAR: Your Honor, I had that witness to 22 put on tomorrow out of turn, because he's from out 23 of state. I subpoenaed him yesterday while he's in 24 town, he's staying over, his plane leaves at 6 p.m. 25 tomorrow. 1620 1 THE COURT: You want to call somebody out of 2 order? 3 MR. DANDAR: Yes. 4 THE COURT: For how long? 5 MR. DANDAR: Actually, I want to -- this goes 6 to their motion -- 7 THE COURT: Wait a second. You may go ahead, 8 step down. 9 THE WITNESS: Okay, your Honor. 10 MR. DANDAR: This goes to their motion to 11 dismiss. 12 THE COURT: Well, I don't know -- I mean, I 13 don't have anything in front of me. This is the 14 thing you wanted to take up today? 15 MR. DANDAR: Take up today. You offered to 16 listen to our evidence that we're going to intend to 17 produce at trial on a paragraph that forms the basis 18 for their motion to dismiss. You said we can do 19 that in camera so we don't have to give away our 20 trial strategy. 21 And this witness is prepared to come in and 22 testify -- 23 THE COURT: I know exactly what I said. I said 24 what you must do for me to have an in camera 25 hearing, it is very touchy because I could get in 1621 1 trouble myself with the Judicial Qualifications 2 Committee. 3 This is the way I always do in cameras. You 4 must file a motion -- a notice of -- request for in 5 camera hearing before the Court. And we have an 6 argument and you say what it is you want me to hear 7 in camera. 8 They have a right to be heard as to whether or 9 not I will hear it in camera. 10 If I then decide I'll hear it in camera, I go 11 in camera right then and there and have the hearing. 12 If I decide it is not in camera, should not 13 have been in camera, I come right out, bring the 14 witness out, and we go on and they have full 15 cross-examination. 16 If I decide it is proper in camera, I just 17 simply come out and tell them at the end it is 18 proper for in camera and that is it. 19 I didn't give you that much detail, but what I 20 said was you have to file a motion for an in camera 21 hearing. 22 MR. DANDAR: All right. 23 THE COURT: I don't have one. 24 MR. DANDAR: All right. I'll have one to you 25 tomorrow morning. 1622 1 MR. WEINBERG: But, in any event, we would very 2 much object to taking any witness out of order in 3 light of what is going on here. We need to put our 4 case on. 5 If he's talking about the witness that I think 6 he's talking about, which he now says is his expert, 7 there is absolutely no reason why we would have to 8 put his expert out of order which we haven't even 9 had a chance to depose. 10 THE COURT: That is true, and if it is your 11 expert, you can't do it in camera. In other words, 12 if it's an expert, your expert will be fully deposed 13 by the Church, so you can't do that in camera. 14 What I was suggesting to you is you know how, a 15 lot of times, you know, judges don't see what 16 lawyers see in a case, and maybe the other side 17 doesn't see it, either. Remember that passage that 18 I read to you from -- from Professor Earhardt's book 19 that said the case you cited to me, which I think 20 was Gore or -- Gore or some oddball name like that, 21 and it said that that case that was decided by some 22 appellate court seemed to misunderstand the purpose 23 of discovery, that really the other side should know 24 the evidence, and that was the point of 70 -- I'm 25 not real familiar with these numbers in civil, if 1623 1 this were criminal, I could rattle it off the top of 2 my head -- but whatever it was. 3 So I pointed that out to you to explain to you 4 why I was going to not let you bring -- this is a 5 very long explanation -- bring out cockroaches from 6 your entomologist because, in essence, I thought 7 that even despite the fact that you cited that case, 8 looking at Earhardt's evidence, you had to come 9 forward, once they put you to your challenge. 10 And I think what I said is I don't see you've 11 got anything unless you have got something that you 12 can't put it on. Okay? 13 From that, I thought if you have got some 14 theory that you want to talk to me about that I'm 15 not seeing, not a witness necessarily, but if you 16 had some theory and you thought the Judge just 17 doesn't get it, which is certainly possible, 18 especially this afternoon at this hour, that I would 19 let you make a motion for an in camera hearing with 20 me to say, "Here is where I plan to go. I don't have 21 to tell them my theory." 22 But if you want to do a witness in camera, that 23 is different. You have to -- they get to argue it 24 should not be in camera, and they get to wait until 25 I go see if I decide to go in camera. That is quite 1624 1 a different procedure. 2 I was talking you could come see me in camera, 3 after notice, to tell me how you thought you could 4 get whatever you had to prove these allegations, in 5 case I couldn't get it. And that is quite possible. 6 So that is what I meant. 7 Now where are we from tomorrow? You may slip 8 past us. 9 THE WITNESS: I didn't want to interrupt, your 10 Honor. 11 THE COURT: That is all right. 12 MR. DANDAR: I would just like to put him on 13 the witness stand out of order. 14 THE COURT: Who is he again? Is he going to be 15 your expert? 16 MR. DANDAR: Actually, I have no arrangements 17 to pay him any witness fee. I just subpoenaed him 18 because I found out he's in town. He's someone who 19 was Jesse Prince's senior at the Church of 20 Scientology. And I'm still trying to talk Jesse 21 Prince into being my expert witness as an expert. 22 But this man is a fact witness based upon his 23 experience. 24 MR. WEINBERG: What is his name? 25 MR. DANDAR: Bill Franks. 1625 1 MR. WEINBERG: This is the person he told us 2 would be his expert. He didn't come to town to 3 watch the Devil Rays. If he came to town, he came 4 to town to be with you. 5 MR. DANDAR: That is not true. 6 MR. WEINBERG: He lives in Pennsylvania is what 7 he told us. 8 MR. DANDAR: Right, he lives outside of 9 Philadelphia. He has a friend down here who happens 10 to be an attorney. And he visits -- comes down and 11 visits. I found out. I had him subpoenaed. 12 THE COURT: Let me ask you a question, 13 counselor. Did you think he might come in, after 14 seeing how long Ms. Brooks was on the witness stand, 15 just come in tomorrow afternoon perhaps for 15 or 20 16 minutes and run out and catch his plane? 17 MR. DANDAR: Well -- 18 THE COURT: It ain't going to happen. So your 19 request to call him out of order, if it is for -- if 20 it's for two or three days, it isn't really fair. 21 They need to go on ahead with their case. I don't 22 think you can assure me he's going to be on and off 23 in half an hour. If you could, I would let you call 24 him out of order. But I don't think that is going 25 to happen. 1626 1 MR. DANDAR: If I can find out that my direct 2 examination of him would be up to a half-hour, would 3 that be then permissible? 4 THE COURT: Only if I was assured that through 5 cross-examination it wasn't going to be more than a 6 half-hour. I don't think you'll be able to do that 7 on an expert. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Well, see -- 9 THE COURT: If he will come in and say, I was 10 in the Church of Scientology from this year to this 11 year, during that period of time I supervised Jesse 12 Prince who was in this capacity and I was in this 13 capacity, thank you, yes, you could call him out of 14 order because that would be a very simple, very 15 short something that could be verified very quickly 16 and -- but if he's going to go into anything else, 17 then you can't call him out of order. 18 I mean, I would let him call a witness for a 19 very brief, short something like I just suggested. 20 So if that is what you are calling him for, I'll let 21 you put him on out of order. 22 MR. DANDAR: No. It is much more than that. 23 THE COURT: Then you just can't. You need to 24 call him back. 25 MR. DANDAR: All right. 1627 1 MR. FUGATE: What time tomorrow, your Honor? 2 THE COURT: Nine o'clock. 3 MR. WEINBERG: See you in the morning, your 4 Honor. 5 THE COURT: All right. Because you know what, 6 Ken, he could be here for days and days. I mean, 7 this lady was here for days and days and days. 8 (WHEREUPON, a recess was taken for the evening.) 9 ___________________________________ 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1628 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 4 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 5 I, LYNNE J. IDE, Registered Merit Reporter, certify that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the proceedings herein, and that the transcript is a true and complete record of my stenographic notes. 7 I further certify that I am not a relative, 8 employee, attorney or counsel of any of the parties, nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 9 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am I financially interested in the action. 10 11 DATED this 16th day of May, 2002. 12 13 14 ______________________________ LYNNE J. IDE, RMR 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 -- This message has been sent via an anonymous mail relay at www.no-id.com.