:

vs. :

:

JESSE PRINCE :

SPN 02157727 :

:

------------------------x DEPONENT: MR. RAY EMMONS DATE: May 15, 2001 TIME: 10:45 a.m. - 11:45 a.m.

LOCATION: Criminal Justice Center 14250 49th Street North Room 1100 Clearwater, FL 33762 REPORTER: Crissy Cladakis Stenographic Reporter Notary Public State of Florida at Large ---------------------------------------------------- D & D REPORTING SERVICE 915 Chestnut Street Clearwater, FL 33756 (727) 468-2002 2 APPEARANCES:

For the State: LYDIA WARDELL, ESQUIRE Assistant State Attorney 14250 49th Street North Clearwater, FL 33760 For Jesse Prince: DENIS M. de VLAMING, ESQUIRE Denis M. de Vlaming, P.A.

1101 Turner Street Clearwater, FL 33756 * * * * I N D E X Direct Examination by Mrs. Wardell .............. 3 3 1 RAY EMMONS, 2 WAS CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND 3 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

4 5 EXAMINATION 6 BY MRS. WARDELL:

7 Q. My name is Lydia Wardell with the State 8 Attorney's office. I'm the prosecutor assigned to the 9 Jesse Prince case, 01-00101-MMANO. Your name was 10 provided to me by the defense attorney as somebody 11 they may call to testify.

12 What is your understanding of the testimony 13 you expect to give, if called to testify?

14 A. My understanding?

15 Q. Uh-huh.

16 A. My understanding is my testimony will revolve 17 around the meeting with Barry Gaston in Lake Wales.

18 Q. All right. Tell me how that meeting was 19 arranged.

20 A. I had contacted Mr. Gaston ostensively to 21 work with me in an undercover assignment.

22 Q. You said "ostensively," in other words under 23 some false pretenses?

24 A. Yes, uh-huh.

25 Q. How did you know Mr. Gaston was the 4 1 individual to be contacted?

2 A. Through investigative techniques, I guess.

3 Q. Well, tell me about those techniques.

4 A. Well, I had spoke with Mr. Prince about the 5 subject Rinzy Trinidad and what did he know about 6 Rinzy Trinidad that would help me.

7 Q. How was it you focused on Trinidad as the 8 individual that you needed to identify?

9 A. How was it?

10 Q. Uh-huh.

11 A. Well, I knew the other person was a Largo 12 police officer.

13 Q. What, did you review the police reports in 14 this case?

15 A. No. I don't think that we had them at that 16 time. From -- I honest to God can't tell you. I just 17 knew that -- well, let me put it this way, based on my 18 prior experience in seven years of vice and narcotics, 19 I knew that one of them people had to be a police 20 officer. And my guess would have been the white guy 21 because they would have set up a black fellow. They 22 probably would have used an undercover CI that would 23 be black.

24 Q. So did you just ask Mr. Prince in generic 25 terms, "Who have you been hanging out with that was 5 1 black"?

2 A. No. I asked him about these people that he 3 had associated with. And during the raid, of course, 4 the Largo Police Department came. I'm not so sure 5 Crosby was there during the raid or not. I don't 6 know.

7 In any event, and during the course of 8 conversation, he handed me -- Mr. Prince handed me a 9 business card that had Rinzy Trinidad on it and he was 10 supposed to be a real estate agent in Lakeland. And I 11 went on my computer system to try to run down Rinzy 12 Trinidad, and there wasn't any Rinzy Trinidad in the 13 State of Florida. Believe it or not, though, there 14 was three of them in the system but none in the State 15 of Florida.

16 And so that kind of stymied me for a while, 17 so I talked with Prince and deduced that most PIs are 18 former police officers of some kind, in most cases, 19 not all, but in most cases. So I called a contact in 20 Lakeland, another PI I worked with sometimes, you 21 know, off and on and asked him if there was a black PI 22 in Lakeland who spoke Spanish and went by the name of 23 Rinzy, and he gave me the name of Barry Gaston.

24 So I called Barry Gaston on the telephone and 25 got his tape player. Then I called Mr. Prince and 6 1 told Mr. Prince to call that number and see if that 2 voice was the same. And he did and it was. I 3 informed Denis that we probably have identified Rinzy 4 Trinidad.

5 Q. Now, these conversations that you had with 6 Mr. Prince would they have been in person or over the 7 telephone?

8 A. Both, in person and on the telephone.

9 Q. And there were times you contacted him with 10 regards to this investigation that Mr. de Vlaming 11 wasn't present?

12 A. Yeah. When I took those photos, I don't 13 think Denis was present, no.

14 Q. Did he give you the names of any other 15 individuals that he thought might have been involved 16 in this case?

17 A. Yeah. He gave me the name of the undercover 18 office for Largo, which later was Mr. Crosby.

19 Q. No. I'm talking in your attempt to identify 20 who the unidentified source was. Did you have any 21 other names to run down or track down?

22 A. No. No, that was it. Jesse had this guy's 23 business card, Rinzy Trinidad, and that was the only 24 name he gave me.

25 Q. At the time you were tracking down this 7 1 Trinidad, were you aware of the allegations against 2 Mr. Prince?

3 A. Sure.

4 Q. And did Mr. -- what did Mr. Prince tell you 5 with regards to those allegations?

6 MR. de VLAMING: Objection. Same objection 7 made earlier. It's subject to the attorney-client 8 privilege.

9 MRS. WARDELL: See, I think this is one's 10 different now because he's talking about conversations 11 he and Mr. Prince had that led to Trinidad. And 12 during the same -- I'm talking about those same 13 conversations, which he's now waived by talking about 14 getting Trinidad.

15 MR. de VLAMING: No. The only thing he's 16 testified to is that Jesse had given him a business 17 card and that he used his investigative techniques to 18 get him. Now, you're asking him what Mr. Prince said 19 concerning these allegations of possession of 20 marijuana. That's subject to the privilege.

21 MRS. WARDELL: And I'm specifically asking it 22 in the context of the conversations that he would have 23 had while leading up to learning the identity of 24 Trinidad.

25 So mark that one, too, because I just think 8 1 this one's a little different. It's, obviously, more 2 detailed than what the other witness had.

3 BY MRS. WARDELL:

4 Q. But -- well, what other information did Mr.

5 Prince provide you with regards to learning the 6 identity of Trinidad?

7 A. That was it.

8 Q. Did he tell you about what he and Mr.

9 Trinidad had been doing, what their relationship was?

10 MR. de VLAMING: Again, I'm going to object.

11 I think you're now talking about the "relationship"

12 meaning the allegations which are the subject of this 13 prosecution. I think that's subject to the 14 attorney-client privilege.

15 BY MRS. WARDELL:

16 Q. Well, he had to have told you something to 17 make you go looking for Trinidad. So what did he tell 18 you to make you go look for Trinidad?

19 MR. de VLAMING: Objection. Asked and 20 answered. The witness said he gave him a business 21 card. The business card had a name on it and he ran 22 his investigation.

23 BY MRS. WARDELL:

24 Q. But you had to have a reason for looking for 25 Trinidad. What was the reason for looking for 9 1 Trinidad?

2 A. The reason?

3 Q. Yeah.

4 A. My reason was -- after discussing with Denis 5 was to identify Mr. Trinidad for -- we had hoped later 6 to depose him.

7 Q. What was the purpose of identifying him?

8 What did you believe his role to be that it was so 9 important to find out who he was?

10 A. I believe that he was one of the undercover 11 people that participated in Jesse's case.

12 Q. Okay. And what did you -- what did you 13 believe that participation to be?

14 A. Well, I believed that -- that -- I'm 15 stumbling here. I don't really have knowledge of what 16 it is to be other than there was a raid on Jesse's 17 house -- I wouldn't say a raid. There was a search 18 warrant executed on Jesse's house, and he was charged 19 with cultivating marijuana at the time. It, 20 obviously, stemmed from that.

21 Q. So nobody communicated to you the need to 22 find Mr. Trinidad?

23 A. No. I did that on my own.

24 Q. Did you read the police reports in the case?

25 A. No.

10 1 Q. So without telling me what was said, did Mr.

2 Prince have a discussion with you describing his 3 relationship with this Trinidad? In other words -- so 4 I know if we even need to go upstairs or not.

5 A. Well, he told me -- 6 MR. de VLAMING: Wait a minute. Listen to 7 the question.

8 BY MRS. WARDELL:

9 Q. Don't tell me what he said. But were there 10 conversations when he described his relationship with 11 Trinidad, i.e., the man came to my house; i.e., we 12 hung out at a bar; i.e. -- 13 A. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there was those type of 14 conversations.

15 Q. There are conversations?

16 A. Yeah.

17 Q. So there are conversations that you would 18 have had with Mr. Prince that would have discussed the 19 things that Mr. Prince did with this individual named 20 Trinidad?

21 A. Yes.

22 MR. de VLAMING: Just yes. Go ahead.

23 BY MRS. WARDELL:

24 Q. Okay.

25 A. Yes.

11 1 MRS. WARDELL: And, I mean, I don't know if 2 you're going to hold me to all the particulars, but 3 point being, I want to preserve -- 4 MR. de VLAMING: You may.

5 MRS. WARDELL: -- certification that I think 6 I'm entitled to get the answers that Prince gave with 7 regards to his relationship with this Trinidad.

8 MR. de VLAMING: Okay.

9 MRS. WARDELL: Which led to the need to 10 search for Trinidad.

11 BY MRS. WARDELL:

12 Q. So now, Mr. Prince calls Trinidad's answering 13 machine, correct?

14 A. Yes, right.

15 Q. And does he say, "Yes, that's the voice"?

16 A. Yes. Yes, he does. He called me back and he 17 said that was Rinzy and it was the same person.

18 Q. So you were under the impression that Mr.

19 Prince had met with Trinidad enough times that he 20 could recognize his voice?

21 A. Yes.

22 Q. Did you know the nature of the relationship 23 between Trinidad and Mr. Prince?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And what was that relationship?

12 1 MR. de VLAMING: Well, I'm going to object 2 if the information is based upon what the client told 3 him. If is it outside of what the client told him, he 4 may answer.

5 A. Well -- 6 MR. de VLAMING: In other words, if it's what 7 I told you or what you read, answer the question. If 8 it came from Prince, I invoke the privilege.

9 A. I really can't answer it then, because it 10 came from Prince.

11 BY MRS. WARDELL:

12 Q. It didn't come from Mr. de Vlaming?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Did Mr. de Vlaming ever tell you what he 15 believed the relationship between Trinidad and Mr.

16 Prince was?

17 A. I don't recall that.

18 Q. After the voice is confirmed, what did you 19 do?

20 A. What did I do? I told Denis that I believed 21 that we had Trinidad identified and I believed it was 22 Barry Gaston and he was a PI in Lake Wales. And I 23 said that I would like to meet with this Gaston to see 24 what he has to say about this. Denis approved that 25 meeting.

13 1 Q. What was it that you wanted to get from Mr.

2 Gaston?

3 A. Well, actually, the meeting was set up just 4 to identify him, you know, positively by face. I 5 can't -- I retract that last. It was, at first, just 6 to ID him to see if that was the same guy or not.

7 And, you know, even though Jesse had said it was the 8 same voice, it's best to have a physical ID. That's, 9 basically, what I started out to do.

10 Q. Did you have any beliefs going into this 11 meeting as to what Mr. Gaston's role was as it related 12 to Mr. Prince?

13 A. Did I have any belief?

14 Q. Uh-huh.

15 A. Personally, myself, that I harbored? Yes. I 16 believed that he was -- that he was working as an 17 agent for the police department.

18 Q. You believed that he was operating under the 19 direction of the police?

20 A. Yeah. That's what I thought.

21 Q. Are you aware how long the relationship 22 lasted between Trinidad and Mr. Prince?

23 A. It was several months.

24 Q. And do you believe -- did you believe that 25 during the entire relationship Mr. Gaston was 14 1 operating under the direction of the police?

2 A. No. Well -- no.

3 Q. And what do you -- how do you form that 4 opinion?

5 A. How do I form that opinion? I believe that 6 based on history in the past concerning Scientology 7 operatives, that Jesse could have been a victim of 8 that.

9 Q. When was Scientology first introduced to this 10 equation, as far as you know?

11 A. From the get-go.

12 Q. And how was it introduced?

13 A. By me.

14 Q. Tell me about that.

15 A. Well, I just -- I just felt that it was too 16 suspicious considering the circumstances involved.

17 Q. Those being?

18 A. One being that if a person's cultivating 19 marijuana, he doesn't have one silly plant and throw 20 the other ones away. When you cultivate marijuana, 21 you cultivate marijuana. You don't grow one plant.

22 That didn't make sense to me.

23 Q. So as far as you know, during the pendency of 24 this investigation, only one plant's been involved?

25 A. As far as I know.

15 1 Q. Only one plant?

2 A. That's the one that the Largo Police 3 Department has.

4 Q. You're not aware of any other plants that are 5 attributed to Mr. Prince's home?

6 A. Yeah, I am. Sure, I am. Jesse had mentioned 7 during the conversation at Martin's Restaurant -- 8 pardon me. He had took -- no. Gaston had said that 9 Jesse said that these plants keep popping up and he 10 keeps tearing them out and throwing them away. Gaston 11 made that statement at the restaurant.

12 Q. Okay. So let's get back to when you 13 introduced the idea that Scientology was involved. So 14 you based that on the fact that one plant was 15 involved?

16 A. One plant was involved. It was next to a 17 screen where if it rained in there, it would pop up 18 and grow. That was part of it and also, based on 19 conversations I had with Mr. Prince.

20 Q. So tell me about arranging this meeting.

21 A. Well, like I said, I called Gaston and told 22 him that, you know, that I had a job for him that 23 involved an undercover assignment in a restaurant to 24 check for employee theft. As a matter of fact, if it 25 wasn't the guy, I was going to use him for that very 16 1 purpose because I needed somebody like that that could 2 do that. I asked him over the telephone if he had 3 experience in undercover operations, and he said he 4 had a lot of experience doing that.

5 So I told him that I would bring the client 6 over to meet him at Martin's Restaurant. I knew where 7 Martin's was at. We go camping -- my wife and I go at 8 River Ranch once in a while. We pass it on State Road 9 60, so I know where it's at. And at Martin's 10 Restaurant on -- we set the date, October 19th -- I 11 don't know what day of the week that was -- at noon.

12 I also wanted to make sure that we had a 13 neutral person, so to speak -- although, I like to 14 think I'm neutral -- in that Mr. Patterson would 15 accompany us. And Mr. Patterson knew absolutely zero 16 about Scientology or what Mr. Prince's role was or 17 anything and so he would have made an excellent 18 neutral third person to listen to any conversation 19 that may happen. Actually, I didn't expect any 20 conversation to happen. And so we arranged this 21 meeting.

22 Q. So who arrived first?

23 A. We did.

24 Q. And?

25 A. Well, we went inside, inside the restaurant.

17 1 Jesse stayed out in the vehicle. And when Gaston 2 arrived, he mistook Patterson for the client that I 3 had spoke about. The client I was going to hire, you 4 know. I told him I was going to bring the client over 5 for him to meet him. And he immediately thought that 6 was the guy that owned the restaurant that he was 7 going to do the undercover assignment for. And so 8 I -- 9 Q. I'm sorry. You said Jesse thought this?

10 A. No, Gaston.

11 Q. Okay. I thought you -- I think, maybe, you 12 misspoke. I thought you said Jesse. He came in and 13 said that Jesse thought that.

14 A. Did I? It was Gaston.

15 Q. So are you already seated when Mr. Gaston 16 walks in?

17 A. Yeah.

18 Q. And are you seated to where you could see the 19 door, you could see him coming?

20 A. Yeah, right.

21 Q. And tell me -- you skipped the part where you 22 brought Mr. Prince in.

23 A. After Gaston sat down, he was talking to 24 Patterson. I went out and brought Mr. Prince in.

25 Q. Okay.

18 1 A. Go on?

2 Q. Uh-huh.

3 A. Mr. Prince came in with me. And when he 4 entered the restaurant, Gaston immediately looked at 5 him and, of course, recognized him and Prince 6 recognized Gaston. Gaston said, "I'm sorry what 7 happened to you, man. I didn't expect that to have 8 happened. I didn't expect that to have happened. I'm 9 sorry it happened to you and your family." They 10 exchanged pleasantries for a while, back and forth, 11 and Gaston said -- Gaston sat down and he said -- we 12 told them who we were.

13 Q. Did Gaston have his back to the door?

14 A. His back to the door? Yeah, I think so. I 15 don't really recall who was sitting where. There was 16 a table. There were four people sitting there.

17 Q. All right. You and Mr. Patterson had a shot 18 of who's coming and going, right?

19 A. Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah, that would 20 be true. That would be true.

21 Q. You made a point of that, right?

22 A. Yeah, sure.

23 Q. That's a pretty good tactic in the world of 24 private investigation, right?

25 A. Well, also, being a cop for 25 years, I like 19 1 to put my back to the wall.

2 Q. So Mr. Gaston was at a disadvantage when he 3 sat with his back to the wall, right?

4 MR. de VLAMING: Objection to the form of the 5 question.

6 A. What was that, again, ma'am? I'm sorry.

7 BY MRS. WARDELL:

8 Q. Mr. Gaston was at a disadvantage when he sat 9 with his back to the wall?

10 A. Well, he didn't sit with his back to the 11 wall. He sat with his back to the door. He could 12 have -- 13 Q. I didn't mean to say "the wall." I meant to 14 say door, back to the door.

15 A. Disadvantage?

16 Q. He didn't have the same advantage that you 17 all had. You said you learned it being a police 18 officer.

19 A. Well, I don't think he was really looking for 20 anyone.

21 Q. Well, I don't think he was looking for Mr.

22 Prince, but he found him, didn't he?

23 A. Yeah. He could have gotten up and walked 24 off, too, but he didn't.

25 Q. But he had his back to who was coming and 20 1 going at the restaurant, right?

2 A. Yeah. But he turned around and saw him come 3 in with me. He turned around and saw him come in the 4 door. This is not a closed room. It's an open 5 restaurant. I mean, he could have gotten up and 6 walked out. In fact, it surprised me he didn't.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. Because -- I really -- I don't know why he 9 stayed. In any event, he sat down and he said, "What 10 do you want to know?" Those were his first words.

11 And, once again, it was a surprise because if it had 12 been me, I would have just walked out the door.

13 Q. Why would you have walked out?

14 A. Well, I would have been afraid of violating 15 the client-attorney privilege. As a PI, you're not 16 supposed to do that. Anyway, so after -- after the 17 conversation, Gaston -- this little pleasantries back 18 and forth, Gaston said he couldn't answer any 19 questions after he said "what do you want to know."

20 So -- and he couldn't answer certain questions because 21 of the client-lawyer -- pardon me, client-PI 22 privilege. Under state statute, if you do that, 23 you're subject for a disciplinary hearing.

24 So -- but he did ask, "Were you followed over 25 here?" And we said, "No." He said, "Are you 21 1 absolutely sure that you weren't followed?

2 Scientology follows Prince around -- Scientology 3 follows Jesse around all the time."

4 Q. Mr. Gaston -- 5 A. Said that.

6 Q. -- used the word "Scientology"?

7 A. Pardon me?

8 Q. Mr. Gaston used the word "Scientology"?

9 A. Yeah, he did.

10 Q. So the first time Scientology is mentioned at 11 this lunch meeting, the word came from Mr. Gaston's 12 mouth?

13 A. That's what he said, "Scientology follows 14 Jesse around all the time. Are you sure you weren't 15 followed?" And I said, "No. We know we weren't 16 followed." And he asked if we were wired. I said, 17 "No. I'm not wired." "Are you sure you're not taping 18 this conversation?"

19 Q. Were you?

20 A. No. Absolutely not. And so he started to 21 answer the -- well, he started to answer the questions 22 I had in mind, voluntarily.

23 Q. What were some of those questions?

24 A. Well, one of them was he was hired by another 25 PI in Clearwater named Brian Raftery.

22 1 Q. He gave you the name Raftery?

2 A. Yeah. Raftery, Brian Raftery.

3 Q. Are you telling me that Mr. Gaston 4 specifically said to you, "I was hired by Brian 5 Raftery"?

6 A. That's what he said, yes.

7 Q. Okay.

8 A. And he said -- I asked -- somebody said, "Why 9 were you hired?" He said, "I was hired to get close 10 to Jesse Prince." He said, "I surveilled him for a 11 while and saw where he hung out and came and gone and 12 then I started to go into the same bar that Jesse went 13 into from time to time." And he said, "I made friends 14 with him. We shot pool and made friends. Jesse asked 15 me over to his house."

16 Q. What was Mr. Prince doing during this 17 conversation?

18 A. He was there listening.

19 Q. Was he contributing to it?

20 A. Not that I can recall.

21 Q. So this is a conversation between -- 22 A. The conversation between Prince and Gaston 23 was mostly about how you been, how's your family and 24 how's your family taking it.

25 Q. And then you basically took over with a 23 1 series of questions, so now -- 2 A. No. He started to tell us this.

3 Q. Well, a minute ago you said you had a bunch 4 of questions and you were surprised -- 5 A. I had a bunch of questions.

6 Q. Let me finish my question before you 7 interrupt.

8 A. Pardon me. Pardon me.

9 Q. Okay. A minute ago you said, I had a bunch 10 of questions and I surprised he answered them. And I 11 said, such as, and then you started to tell me some of 12 questions.

13 A. Well, I must have -- didn't understand you 14 correctly. I didn't ask him -- the only one question 15 I asked him was, "In his experience as a police 16 officer, has he ever found marijuana growing wild in 17 people's homes involuntarily?" And he said, "Yes."

18 That's the only question I asked him. When I answered 19 that portion that you're referring to, I had questions 20 but I didn't ask him any.

21 Q. Well, how did the topic -- 22 A. He just started to talk.

23 Q. Let me finish. How did the topic of who 24 hired him come up?

25 A. The topic of what?

24 1 Q. Of who hired him, i.e., you said he told you 2 that Mr. Raftery hired him. So how did that topic 3 come up?

4 A. He said, "I was hired by Brian Raftery" -- 5 Q. He volunteered that?

6 A. -- "to get close to Jesse Prince." Yes.

7 Q. He volunteered that on his own not in 8 response to any questions?

9 A. Not that I know of. I didn't asked him. If 10 someone else asked him, I didn't hear it.

11 Q. So is it fair to say at this point the 12 conversation's going back and forth between you and 13 Mr. Gaston?

14 A. No. It's going back and forth between 15 Patterson, me and Gaston.

16 Q. So it's a four-way conversation?

17 A. And Prince, from time to time, would -- no, 18 he didn't say much, only about the family and 19 what-have-you.

20 Q. Okay.

21 A. And that's what -- he said that during -- I 22 mean, during the progress of the case, he was -- he 23 was a bit upset by this. During the progress of the 24 case while he was getting to know Mr. Prince, Raftery 25 and the Scientologists would call him. Well, I did 25 1 ask him that question. Raftery and "they" would call 2 him all the time. And I said, "Who were 'they,' the 3 Scientologists?" and he said, "Yes." He said, "They 4 also asked him if he knew someone in the State's 5 Attorney's office." This was after Jesse was charged.

6 Q. And what was the answer to that question?

7 A. He said, no, he didn't know anyone in the 8 State's Attorney's office. And he said they were 9 constantly calling him about updates on the case. And 10 why he was upset is because he wasn't on the payroll 11 anymore. He wasn't getting paid for these phone 12 calls.

13 Q. Had y'all ordered lunch?

14 A. Yeah.

15 Q. Did he -- Mr. Gaston order lunch?

16 A. I don't know. We had lunch.

17 Q. Do you know whether or not Mr. Gaston ordered 18 anything?

19 A. I don't think he did.

20 Q. How long do you think the table setting 21 lasted?

22 A. Oh, from 45 minute to an hour.

23 Q. Can you recall any other particulars of 24 conversation?

25 A. Oh, he said -- I think I've said it before.

26 1 He said that he was present when Jesse was pulling up 2 these small marijuana plants and throwing them away 3 and Jesse made a comment "These things keep popping up 4 all of the time." And he, also, said that Officer 5 Crosby didn't have his heart into this -- heart and 6 sole into doing this. Crosby thought there was 7 nothing going on in the house, but Gaston was under 8 the impression that Crosby was following orders from 9 someone, which Gaston assumed, was a higher up to 10 continue the case.

11 Q. When Mr. Prince referenced -- I'm sorry.

12 When Mr. Gaston referenced being present when Mr.

13 Prince pulled up the plants, is there any indication 14 where the plants were when they were pulled up?

15 A. Yeah. They were in pots.

16 Q. In pots?

17 A. Yeah. He said they were voluntarily growing 18 in pots.

19 Q. What was that first word?

20 A. Voluntarily growing in -- well, no, I take 21 that back. He didn't say that at all. He said they 22 were growing in pots.

23 Q. You said "voluntarily growing in pots." I 24 asked you to repeat it, you said voluntarily and then 25 took that back. I'm not understanding what just 27 1 happened there.

2 A. Well, he didn't say "voluntarily."

3 Q. Why did you say that?

4 A. I did.

5 Q. Sir, that's about the fourth time in this 6 depo that you've said something and then immediately 7 retracted it when you realized you said something you 8 probably shouldn't have said.

9 A. What are you inferring here?

10 MR. de VLAMING: Objection. Just continue 11 the depo.

12 BY MRS. WARDELL:

13 Q. What did you mean when you said marijuana was 14 "voluntarily growing in pots"?

15 A. It was an accident, a mistake.

16 Q. A mistake that you said the marijuana was 17 "voluntarily growing in pots"?

18 A. No, the word "voluntarily."

19 Q. Okay. You understand at issue here is 20 whether or not Mr. Prince had knowledge those 21 marijuana plants were growing and whether or not he 22 was set up, correct?

23 A. Yeah, I understand.

24 Q. You know that's the heart of the case, right?

25 A. Yeah, I do.

28 1 Q. In other words, did the Scientologists plant 2 the plants or did Mr. Prince cultivate the plants, you 3 understand that?

4 A. Yeah, I understand that.

5 Q. Okay. So now you want to scratch that they 6 were voluntarily in the pots. But tell me about how 7 Mr. Prince indicated to you that they were in the 8 pots.

9 A. How Mr. Prince or Mr. Gaston?

10 Q. I'm sorry. Mr. Prince?

11 MR. de VLAMING: Are you talking about at the 12 restaurant?

13 BY MRS. WARDELL:

14 Q. Was there any indication during your 15 conversations with Mr. Prince at the restaurant how 16 the marijuana got in the pots?

17 MRS. WARDELL: And I reserve asking the other 18 question later.

19 THE DEPONENT: Should I answer that or not?

20 MR. de VLAMING: Yeah. At the restaurant, 21 Mr. Emmons, was there any discussions by Mr. Prince 22 concerning the marijuana growing in the pots? You can 23 answer that. At the restaurant.

24 THE DEPONENT: At the restaurant. I don't 25 recall.

29 1 BY MRS. WARDELL:

2 Q. Okay. Where did Mr. Gaston indicate these 3 plants were that Mr. Prince kept pulling up?

4 A. That they were in pots.

5 Q. Where were the pots?

6 A. He didn't say.

7 Q. Nobody clarified where the pots evidently 8 were?

9 A. No, no.

10 Q. Without answering what was said, at any point 11 during your investigation, had somebody told you where 12 those pots were that contained the marijuana that Mr.

13 Prince pulled up?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. And do you know of that answer through a 16 conversation you had with Mr. Prince?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. And would that have been a telephonic 19 conversation or in person?

20 A. In person.

21 Q. Where would that conversation have taken 22 place?

23 A. In his house.

24 Q. In Mr. Prince's house?

25 A. Yes.

30 1 Q. And who was present?

2 A. Me and him.

3 Q. And where was that conversation made in 4 closest to when you determined the identity of Mr.

5 Gaston, prior or after?

6 A. It was prior.

7 Q. So about the time that you were making the 8 phone call and listening to the message and ID-ing 9 him?

10 A. Well, it was just prior, a few days prior.

11 Q. So this would be -- I'm talking September or 12 October.

13 Well, let me ask you this: How close in time 14 to when Mr. Prince recognized the voice of Gaston on 15 the machine did you have the lunch?

16 A. Less than a week.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. The conversation I had with Mr. Prince was 19 just after he was charged, a couple of days after he 20 was charged.

21 Q. Okay.

22 A. I don't remember what day that is anymore.

23 Q. And during that conversation, did Mr. Prince 24 talk to you about the marijuana plants -- without 25 telling me what he said, were there conversations that 31 1 you had with Mr. Prince about the marijuana plants and 2 their locations?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Did you ever talk to his girlfriend?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. And what did she tell you with regards to 7 where the marijuana plants were?

8 A. She didn't.

9 Q. You never talked to her about the marijuana 10 plants?

11 A. No.

12 Q. Okay. So how many conversations do you think 13 you had with her?

14 A. One.

15 Q. Was that in person at the house?

16 A. No. Yeah, it was in person and it was at the 17 house at a later date.

18 Q. And you never asked her anything or had any 19 conversation with her with regards to the marijuana 20 plants?

21 A. No. Her conversation evolved about how the 22 police department came into their house and scared the 23 kids.

24 Q. Let's go back to the lunch for a minute.

25 Tell me about some more conversations that took place 32 1 at the lunch that you can think of.

2 A. Well, without looking at the report, I can't 3 recall at this time.

4 Q. At any point during that conversation, did 5 Mr. Prince deny knowledge of the marijuana plants in 6 or about his home?

7 A. At the lunch?

8 Q. Uh-huh.

9 A. No.

10 Q. There was no denial made?

11 A. No. Jesse said very little except when he 12 first saw Gaston.

13 Q. At any point during the lunch, did Mr. Prince 14 say, "Man, I can't believe you set me up like that"?

15 A. He can't believe what?

16 Q. Did he say anything -- it doesn't have to be 17 these exact words but the connotation is there. But 18 at any point during that lunch, did Mr. Prince just 19 shake his head at Mr. Gaston and say, "I can't believe 20 you set me up like that"?

21 A. I didn't hear him say that.

22 Q. Is it your belief that Mr. Gaston set Mr.

23 Prince up?

24 MR. de VLAMING: I'm going to object to the 25 form of the question. I'm not so sure the extent of 33 1 "set up," but I'm going to let the witness answer it.

2 If you can answer the question.

3 A. I don't know if Gaston did or somebody else 4 did. I can't say that he did it.

5 BY MRS. WARDELL:

6 Q. It is your belief that Mr. Prince was set up?

7 A. Yes.

8 Q. Is it your belief that Mr. Prince had no 9 knowledge that marijuana plants were at his residence?

10 A. No. I think he knew they were there.

11 Q. Is it your belief that he ever smoked 12 marijuana at his residence during this time frame?

13 Not the lunch time frame, but prior -- leading up to 14 the arrest?

15 A. Well, yes.

16 Q. You believe he smoked marijuana?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Do you believe he used the plants that were 19 growing at his residence to smoke marijuana?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Where do you believe his marijuana was coming 22 from?

23 A. I have no idea. But it didn't come from the 24 plants.

25 Q. What is the basis of these beliefs?

34 1 A. Because the plants were too small and they're 2 not old enough yet. They've got to get much higher 3 and you've got to -- you've got to do a lot of things 4 to them like pick them, pick the seeds and stems out, 5 cultivate them and dry them.

6 Q. And how do you know how large the plant was?

7 A. Well, all I can go by is what he told me he 8 was throwing away, the little plants. And, you know, 9 that's all I knew at that time.

10 Q. Okay.

11 A. Since then, I formulated an opinion based on 12 the little plant that you see there in the picture.

13 Q. Well, isn't it true at the beginning of the 14 deposition you asked to see a picture of it?

15 A. Yeah.

16 Q. And prior to that, have you seen a picture of 17 it?

18 A. No.

19 Q. So you have no independent knowledge as to 20 how big or little that plant was -- 21 A. No.

22 Q. -- correct?

23 A. I just know that I was told it was small.

24 Q. So is it -- so your belief, that you stated 25 earlier that Mr. Prince did not use the marijuana 35 1 plants growing at his house to then smoke marijuana, 2 is that based on anything other that your perception 3 on the size of the plants?

4 A. That's right. Based on what -- well, what I 5 believe, my perception.

6 Q. Of the size of the plants?

7 A. Of the size of the plants, yes.

8 Q. Do you have any beliefs with regards to 9 whether or not dried seeds and leaves were seen in the 10 home of Mr. Prince? Do you have any knowledge of 11 that?

12 A. No. I don't have any knowledge of that.

13 Q. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Prince 14 and/or his girlfriend -- fiancee, I don't know their 15 relationship -- but smoking marijuana in the presence 16 of the children that were scared by the presence of 17 the police?

18 A. No. I don't have any knowledge of that.

19 Q. Did you ever eat lunch in that setting? Did 20 you actually eat a meal?

21 A. Yeah.

22 Q. And you said Mr. Gaston didn't order 23 anything?

24 A. I don't think he did. I'm not real sure.

25 I'll qualify it, but I don't think he did. I didn't 36 1 pay that much attention.

2 Q. How did the luncheon end?

3 A. With everybody shaking hands and exchanging 4 business cards. Mr. Gaston gave me his, which I have.

5 And that was it and good luck to you.

6 Q. Did everybody walk out together?

7 A. Yeah, uh-huh.

8 Q. You had said something earlier and I just 9 want to get back to that. You said that you injected 10 the word "Scientology" into this case early on because 11 you thought that they were behind this.

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Can you give me a time frame as to when that 14 came into your mind?

15 A. I guess when I saw Jesse's house, the 16 physical scene at the house.

17 Q. And when was that in relation to the arrest?

18 A. A couple days afterwards.

19 Q. So were you the first -- 20 A. Whenever I took those photos.

21 Q. Okay. Were you the first one that came up 22 with the idea or the notion that, hey, Scientology's 23 behind this?

24 A. No. I don't know, you know. I didn't 25 express that to anybody. It was just what I thought.

37 1 Q. Throughout -- throughout the pendency of your 2 involvement, you've never expressed to anybody that 3 you believe Scientology was behind this?

4 A. I might have spoke to -- spoke to Jesse that 5 I thought that was the case, but I didn't tell Denis 6 that.

7 Q. Was that early on?

8 A. Early on? Yeah. It was fairly early on, 9 yes.

10 Q. Is it fair to say that you think 11 Scientology's behind a lot of things?

12 MR. de VLAMING: Object to the form of the 13 question. You mean in relation to Mr. Prince?

14 MRS. WARDELL: No.

15 MR. de VLAMING: "Behind a lot of things,"

16 you mean in general?

17 MRS. WARDELL: Uh-huh.

18 MR. de VLAMING: Object to the question as 19 being irrelevant.

20 BY MRS. WARDELL:

21 Q. Well, this isn't the first involvement you've 22 had with trying to pit Scientology as doing something 23 wrong, correct?

24 A. Yeah, that's correct.

25 Q. It's not the first?

38 1 A. Not the first.

2 Q. Can you give me an idea of how many 3 investigations you've been involved in where 4 Scientology has been -- I'll use the word "focus," but 5 I think you understand what I'm saying.

6 A. That's a hard question to answer because I 7 worked -- my special assignment for over two years was 8 based on Scientology.

9 Q. And that dates -- 10 A. And that means hundreds of them.

11 Q. That dates back to what, the late-'70s?

12 A. No, mid-'80s.

13 Q. Mid-'80s. At least '83, '84, right?

14 A. '84, '85.

15 Q. So for almost going on 20 years?

16 A. No. I've got to qualify that.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. It doesn't permeate my life. It never has.

19 I'm not a zealot or a nut that goes out and 20 Scientology's the enemy. They just happened to pop up 21 that way once in a while because they are -- they do 22 conduct various undercover operations and have in the 23 past.

24 Q. How many -- how long have you been in private 25 practice?

39 1 A. Since 1994.

2 Q. And since private practice, how many 3 investigations have you had through private retention 4 that has involved Scientology?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How many?

7 A. Oh, how many? Maybe six or seven.

8 Q. And did any of those result in criminal 9 prosecutions of anybody involved?

10 A. Well, most of those were not criminal in 11 nature.

12 Q. Okay.

13 A. They were -- well, I don't think they were.

14 A lot of civil harassments. They follow members of 15 the Trust on a daily basis. And a lot of that had to 16 do with identifying who the people were -- I won't say 17 they have -- they hire PIs to do it. They don't -- 18 well, from time to time, they are involved, like 19 Richard Howell who followed Robert Minton to the 20 Belleair Biltmore. I worked that case.

21 Q. Who retained you in this case?

22 A. Mr. de Vlaming.

23 Q. And have you been paid to date?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And how much did you get?

40 1 A. I got $500.

2 Q. And are you on retainer, if you will?

3 A. No, I'm not.

4 Q. So what about with the Lisa McPherson Trust, 5 have you done work for them?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And can you give me an idea of how many cases 8 you've done for them?

9 A. Six or seven.

10 Q. And of those six and seven, how many -- six 11 or seven, how many involved Scientology?

12 A. All of them.

13 Q. Were those prior to Mr. Prince's arrest or 14 after?

15 A. All of them involved Scientology either 16 directly or indirectly.

17 Q. And were those prior to Mr. Prince's arrest 18 or after?

19 A. Both.

20 Q. And other than the six or seven cases that 21 someone within the Lisa McPherson Trust hired you do, 22 have you had any other investigations that involved, 23 direct or indirectly, Scientology?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. And tell me how many.

41 1 A. Well, one major one for Ken Dandar on the 2 death of Lisa McPherson.

3 Q. Okay.

4 A. I'm involved in that.

5 Q. All right. What else?

6 A. That's it. I can't remember anybody else, 7 no.

8 Q. We're talking since you've been in private 9 practice not while you were -- 10 A. No. Yeah, I don't recall anyone else.

11 Q. So all of your fees, with the exception of 12 this case, have been paid by either Mr. Dandar or the 13 Lisa McPherson Trust?

14 A. Yes, uh-huh.

15 Q. Is Mr. Prince involved, to your knowledge, 16 with the Lisa McPherson Trust?

17 A. Yes, he's the vice president.

18 Q. Has he ever signed any of your paychecks?

19 A. No.

20 Q. Who signs your checks, do you know, when they 21 come from the Trust?

22 A. Bob Peterson. He's the treasurer or 23 something.

24 Q. Are you on retainer with the Trust?

25 A. No.

42 1 Q. Have you ever turned down a job that they've 2 asked you to do?

3 A. Well, it's mostly they get a tag number and 4 they want to find out who was driving the car or 5 computer searches. Nothing big, it's mostly that.

6 Q. Other than Mr. Gaston, have you done any 7 searches on any of the players in this particular 8 case?

9 A. Yes.

10 Q. Who?

11 A. Raftery.

12 Q. Anybody else -- 13 A. No. No one else, no.

14 Q. -- either directly or indirectly involved in 15 this case?

16 A. No, unh-unh.

17 Q. Okay.

18 A. Raftery and Gaston.

19 Q. Okay. Tell me about your search of Mr.

20 Raftery and what was the purpose of that?

21 A. Well, I did a computer search because he was 22 spotted following members of the Trust and they asked 23 me to run a -- they ran a tag number to find out who 24 the guy was. And, of course, he had leased cars. But 25 they saw him following and they wanted me to do a 43 1 background on Brian Raftery.

2 Q. They saw him and recognized his face as Brian 3 Raftery or they saw a car and said, "Figure out who's 4 following us"?

5 A. No, they saw him.

6 Q. He was somebody known to them?

7 A. Yeah. I don't know how.

8 Q. Do you know who he was following?

9 A. Various members of the Trust.

10 Q. Did it include Mr. Prince?

11 A. I don't think so. I don't know. I don't 12 know. I don't know. I got my assignment through Mr.

13 Peterson who just asked me to do a background on Brian 14 Raftery, you know, a computer search.

15 Q. I guess I'm confused because if they knew it 16 was him following them, why would they need the tag 17 checked?

18 A. Well, there's another attorney involved with 19 the Trust named John Merrett who was subpoenaing 20 records from the lease car company through the tags.

21 They were renting the cars through Enterprise Leasing 22 and Merrett was finding out who they rented them to.

23 I don't know why. I think he has a pending civil case 24 or he's going to institute one for harassment.

25 Q. So what did you develop on Mr. Raftery?

44 1 A. Just a computer printout.

2 Q. What would that include?

3 A. Oh, it's his name and his PI license number 4 and his property assets that he may have, family, his 5 wife's name. I don't recall anything else. It's 6 really not very revealing. It's all -- anything that 7 is a public record.

8 Q. Did you turn this information over to the 9 Trust -- 10 A. Yes.

11 Q. -- and the members of the Trust?

12 A. Yeah, right.

13 Q. Anybody else that you've been asked to check 14 out and turn over to the Trust?

15 A. Yeah. I don't know if I'm allowed to go into 16 all of them. They're clients of mine, too. It has 17 nothing to do with this case.

18 Q. Well, that's what I'm getting at. Any 19 members of the Largo law enforcement?

20 A. No, no.

21 Q. Any members of the State Attorney's office?

22 A. Nothing to do with them.

23 Q. Any -- the children involved, the wife, the 24 girlfriend involved?

25 A. No, no.

45 1 Q. But have you checked out any of Gaston's 2 family members?

3 A. No.

4 Q. To your knowledge, was Mr. Gaston being 5 followed by a private investigator for the Trust?

6 A. No, no. I'm certain that didn't happen.

7 Q. What about Raftery?

8 A. No. They don't hire people to follow people 9 around.

10 Q. Okay. So it fair to say that your 11 involvement as it relates to your testimony for this 12 case is going to be the circumstances leading up to 13 the lunch, the lunch and when you went over to take 14 pictures prior to the lunch?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Okay. So when you took these pictures, was 17 Mr. Prince home?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. And was he walking around showing you where 20 to take the pictures?

21 A. No. Well, yeah, he was. He was. He told me 22 where the -- the marijuana plant came from that pot.

23 Q. He showed you the pot?

24 A. Yeah. The pot was still there.

25 Q. Where was the pot?

46 1 A. They had taken the -- pulled up the plant out 2 of the pot.

3 Q. Where was that pot?

4 A. It was in the screened-in patio, a porch 5 pool -- pool -- next to the pool and next to the 6 screen. There was an old dried up plant of some kind 7 with a stick in there of some kind.

8 Q. Well, you don't know what the police cut out, 9 though, right?

10 A. No, no. They took out the marijuana plant.

11 Q. But you don't know what else they took out of 12 there?

13 A. No. I have no idea.

14 Q. And when you say "near the screen," can you 15 give me a little bit more? Would that be like when 16 you first walk in the screen door to go jump in the 17 pool?

18 A. No. The porch -- the patio area you could go 19 into it from the kitchen area and there's sliding 20 glass doors. On the west side is a screen door that 21 opens to the yard and the pot was right next to that 22 screen.

23 Q. Out by the patio area?

24 A. Yeah, out by the patio area.

25 Q. Are you aware if Mr. Prince's girlfriend has 47 1 a job or are you aware if whether or not she stays 2 home during the day?

3 A. She has a job.

4 Q. And do you know the ages of the children?

5 A. No, I don't.

6 Q. Do you know if they are in after -- 7 after-care or whether or not they come to the house 8 when school is over?

9 A. I honest to God don't know that.

10 Q. So you don't know if there's a baby-sitter at 11 the house?

12 A. No, I don't know that.

13 Q. Do you know who else had access to that 14 house?

15 A. No, I don't.

16 Q. So the only ones you're aware of that live 17 there was the girlfriend and the two children?

18 A. Yes.

19 Q. And Mr. Prince?

20 A. And Jesse, yeah.

21 Q. Tell me more about taking these photographs 22 and how you knew what to photo.

23 A. Well, because I asked him about -- well, 24 about that pot. "Where was the marijuana seized 25 from?" And he showed me the pot. I took pictures of 48 1 that. And he -- then Jesse told me that there were 2 other marijuana plants growing that he had tossed 3 away.

4 Q. Did he show you where those were?

5 A. Yeah, he did. But he really didn't recall 6 all of them. He showed me a couple of pots on one 7 side and one pot over in the corner -- it'd be on the 8 east side -- that he had thrown away. I took the 9 general overall view of the patio, I believe, several 10 views of the patio and the door and the house, the 11 property.

12 Q. So all of the marijuana that was indicated to 13 you as being pulled up and thrown away had been 14 growing in a pot?

15 A. That's what he said, yeah.

16 Q. And all of these pots were within the 17 screened porch area?

18 A. Yeah.

19 Q. That was your understanding?

20 A. Yes, yes.

21 Q. Was there ever any indication that any 22 marijuana was being grown out in the grassy area 23 that's not screened in?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Was there ever any other indication that any 49 1 of the marijuana was growing from the ground itself?

2 A. No.

3 Q. It was all growing in pots?

4 A. That's all I know, yeah.

5 Q. Within the screened area?

6 A. Yeah.

7 Q. Okay. Did he ever talk to you about 8 fertilizing the marijuana?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Did you find it curious that a bag of 11 fertilizer was laying next to the, as you called it, 12 dead plant from where the cops confiscated the 13 marijuana?

14 A. No. Because he had told me he and his 15 girlfriend were going to -- were replanting some 16 plants. They were buying some plants.

17 Q. So you asked him about the fertilizer?

18 A. No. I saw it there. And he said, "We 19 were" -- "We are in the process of getting rid of all 20 the old dead plants and repotting some flowers and 21 plants of our own."

22 Q. Did you see any -- 23 A. Those pots, he told me, were left by the 24 previous owner.

25 Q. Did you see -- other than the bag of potting 50 1 soil, did you see any indication that new plants were 2 about to be planted, i.e., crates from Home Depot or 3 from Frank's Nursery or plants sitting around waiting 4 to be potted, if you will?

5 A. I don't recall. I didn't see any. I don't 6 think I did see any.

7 Q. There wasn't -- you know how you get those 8 little individual cartons of, you know, geraniums or 9 what-have-you? There were no plants waiting to be 10 planted, were there?

11 A. I don't know. I don't recall.

12 MR. de VLAMING: You want to see this?

13 MRS. WARDELL: Unh-unh.

14 A. I honestly don't recall if there were or not.

15 I don't recall.

16 BY MRS. WARDELL:

17 Q. Do you recall whether or not there was a hose 18 hooked up to be used for watering? Was there a hose 19 within the screened porch?

20 A. I think so, but that's not unusual if you 21 have a pool.

22 Q. Did he ever offer you an explanation as to 23 why he was able to pull and throw away other plants 24 but he left the one sitting right there by this patio 25 within his own screened porch?

51 1 A. No.

2 Q. Did you ever ask him why he didn't throw that 3 one away too?

4 A. No, I don't think I did.

5 Q. Did that strike you as odd that he had 6 pointed out to you that he had thrown all these plants 7 that voluntarily or involuntarily grew, yet he didn't 8 throw that one away?

9 A. Well, I thought he just plain missed it.

10 There was all kinds of trash and plants around there.

11 He just plain missed it. He didn't see it or missed 12 it. It was sitting back kind of a little. There were 13 pots in front of it.

14 Q. Did he indicate whether that particular 15 plant, the one that the cops seized and cut the stuff 16 out of it, whether that was one that he brought from 17 his old home or whether that was one left behind from 18 the old owners?

19 A. That's what he said. He said that those pots 20 were left behind from the old owners.

21 Q. Do you know how long he had been in that 22 house?

23 A. No. It wasn't long, though. I really don't 24 know.

25 Q. Is there any other area or topic that I'm 52 1 just not asking the question the right way that I need 2 to know that you know about this case that you think 3 you might testify to?

4 A. I hope that I have recalled everything that 5 is important. If I missed something, I apologize.

6 Q. Do you have any formed beliefs, as we sit 7 here today, about Scientology, the practice of 8 Scientology?

9 MR. de VLAMING: Any what beliefs?

10 MRS. WARDELL: Formed.

11 MR. de VLAMING: Formed beliefs?

12 A. Formed beliefs?

13 BY MRS. WARDELL:

14 Q. In other words, your own beliefs. Like, I'm 15 not saying that you're predisposed from one or the 16 other, but what is your -- do you have a current 17 belief?

18 A. Well, I believe that -- I feel sorry for 19 Scientologists.

20 Q. And why is that?

21 A. Well, based on evidence that has not been 22 refuted and based on current evidence that's going on 23 throughout the world, they appear to be victims of a 24 fraudulent enterprise.

25 Q. Do you know -- other than Mr. Prince, do you 53 1 know of any current members or former members of 2 Scientology?

3 A. I know hundreds of them.

4 Q. Former or current?

5 A. Former.

6 Q. You know hundreds of former Scientologists?

7 A. Yeah. At one time, I knew a lot of them.

8 Q. Okay. Do you know any -- 9 A. I can't recall them all.

10 Q. Are there any that you see on a regular 11 basis?

12 A. Yeah. I see people from the Trust on a 13 regular basis and most of those are former 14 Scientologists.

15 Q. And would you see them on a regular basis 16 socially or as part of being hired to do work for 17 them?

18 A. Part of doing -- hiring to do work for them.

19 Q. Do you see any of them on a social basis?

20 A. No.

21 Q. Do you socialize with -- 22 A. I have, though. They have had certain -- 23 they've had dinners or something and I've been asked 24 to go.

25 Q. Do you socialize with Mr. Prince?

54 1 A. No.

2 Q. And -- 3 A. Not unless he wants to go camping. I don't 4 socialize with anybody.

5 Q. Do you -- did you ever sit down with Mr.

6 Patterson and share any of your beliefs about 7 Scientology?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Did you ever share any war stories, if you 10 will, about things you've encountered with 11 Scientology?

12 A. With Patterson?

13 Q. Uh-huh.

14 A. No.

15 Q. Prior to leading up to the lunch?

16 A. No, absolutely not. I wanted Mr. Patterson 17 to be as clean as possible.

18 Q. So you never discussed it with him?

19 A. Well, I told him who I was working for, 20 Denis. We worked for Denis and the purpose of why 21 we're going.

22 Q. Did you ever tell him that they were a bunch 23 of nuts?

24 A. No.

25 Q. Or maybe I'm not saying the phrase the right 55 1 way. Did you ever say something to that affect, 2 they're a bunch of loonies or a bunch of -- some type 3 of -- 4 A. Not that I recall. I'm sorry if I did. I'm 5 wrong. But I don't recall doing that.

6 Q. So you don't recall having any conversations 7 with Mr. Patterson about Scientology?

8 A. No, not -- I don't recall.

9 Q. What about Mr. Prince, did the two of y'all 10 ever get together and talk about it?

11 A. Sure.

12 Q. Have you shared your war stories about 13 Scientology to Mr. Prince?

14 A. War stories?

15 Q. Well, you know, any -- 16 A. I understand what you're saying.

17 Q. You know what I'm saying. I mean, starting 18 from 19 -- 19 A. Yeah, sure. Absolutely, yeah.

20 Q. Was that prior to his arrest or subsequent?

21 A. Both.

22 Q. Did you know Mr. Prince prior to his arrest?

23 A. Yes, uh-huh.

24 Q. And what was your relationship with Mr.

25 Prince prior to his arrest?

56 1 A. Well, he worked for the Trust and I did some 2 work for Mr. Minton and he was at the Trust. We were 3 on a friendly, speaking basis. Jesse's a nice fellow.

4 Q. Okay. During the time frame when Mr. Gaston 5 was associated with Mr. Prince, did you know Mr.

6 Prince?

7 A. Yeah, I probably did.

8 Q. Did you ever see them together?

9 A. Gaston and Prince?

10 Q. Uh-huh.

11 A. No.

12 Q. Did he ever talk to you about things they did 13 together?

14 A. No.

15 Q. So when he was discussing how to get to him, 16 he never told you these are the things we did with 17 this guy and this is why I think he might be involved?

18 A. Oh, I'm begging your pardon. I thought you 19 met prior to this. Yeah. That's not the way it was 20 phrased. I wanted to know as much about Mr. Gaston as 21 he could possibly remember.

22 Q. Okay. And without telling me at the point 23 what he said, there are conversations that you had 24 with Mr. Prince that described the things he had done 25 with Mr. Gaston, correct?

57 1 A. Yes.

2 MRS. WARDELL: Okay. Do you still think it's 3 privileged at this point based on everything that's 4 come out.

5 MR. de VLAMING: Yes.

6 MRS. WARDELL: Okay. We're missing technical 7 certification.

8 Am I missing anything, Denis?

9 MR. de VLAMING: No. Those are the two 10 areas, the lunch and the photographs.

11 MRS. WARDELL: All right.

12 MR. de VLAMING: And videotape. But 13 basically, the video serves the same as the -- you 14 know, it's a scene -- 15 MRS. WARDELL: Oh, you have a videotape?

16 MR. De VLAMING: I don't have it with me, but 17 if you want to give me a blank, I can give it to you.

18 But it basically shows the back yard and the 19 screened-in porch.

20 BY MRS. WARDELL:

21 Q. Was that made the same day you took the 22 photos?

23 A. Yes.

24 Q. Did you narrate or did Jesse narrate?

25 MR. de VLAMING: No, we didn't -- there's no 58 1 sound.

2 A. No.

3 BY MRS. WARDELL:

4 Q. Were you -- was Mr. de Vlaming present?

5 A. No.

6 MR. de VLAMING: No.

7 MRS. WARDELL: All right. I don't have 8 anything else.

9 MR. de VLAMING: Okay. I have no questions.

10 Witness will read.

11 THE WITNESS: Yeah, I'll read.

12 MR. de VLAMING: Thank you.

13 (At this time the deposition in the 14 above-captioned matter was concluded at 15 11:45 a.m.)

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 59 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 State of Florida ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, CRISSY CLADAKIS, Court Reporter, certify 5 that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the foregoing deposition; and that the 7 transcript is a true record of the testimony given by 8 the witness.

9 I further certify that I am not a relative, 10 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, 11 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 12 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am 13 I financially interested in the action.

14 I, the undersigned authority, certify that 15 RAY EMMONS personally appeared before me and was duly 16 sworn.

17 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 21st 18 day of May, 2001.

19 20 21 Crissy Cladakis 22 Notary Public - State of Florida 23 My Commission No. CC 736558 24 Expires: April 23, 2002 25 ERRATA SHEET READING AND SIGNING OF DEPOSITION TO BE ATTACHED TO THE DEPOSITION OF RAY EMMONS TAKEN ON MAY 15, 2001, IN THE MATTER OF State of Florida VS.

JESSE PRINCE BY CRISSY CLADAKIS TO THE DEPONENT: IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE, THIS IS ATTACHED FOR YOUR INSPECTION AND SIGNATURE. ANY CHANGES IN THE DEPOSITION IN FORM OR SUBSTANCE WHICH YOU CARE TO MAKE ARE TO BE MADE ON THIS SHEET WITH YOUR REASON THEREFORE.

DO NOT WRITE ON THE DEPOSITION ITSELF RETURN THIS FORM AND THE ORIGINAL SIGNATURE PAGE WITHIN 14 DAYS TO D & D REPORTING SERVICE.

FOR THE STATE: Lydia Wardell, Esquire FOR MR. PRINCE: Denis de Vlaming, Esquire LINE & PAGE NO. CHANGE OR CORRECTION AND REASON ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ RAY EMMONS __________________________ Date _______________ DEPONENT'S CERTIFICATE I have read the foregoing transcript of my oral deposition taken on the date and at the location indicated on the title page of the deposition, and I certify that said transcript is true and correct, with the provisions that any errors appearing therein have been corrected by me by listing on a separate sheet as to page number, line and content of said error(s), and further indicating the language to be substituted.

I also understand that upon completion of the reading, signing and correcting of the transcript, I am to return this original signature page, my list of corrections and said file copy provided for my inspection to the person or company listed on the pre-addressed envelope provided to me.

I further understand that if I do not carry out the instructions stated above within thirty days from the date I receive the transcript, I automatically waive my right to read and Scientology the deposition.

DATE: _____________________ NAME: ____________________ RAY EMMONS MAY 15, 2001

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