-------------------------------------------------
Interview conducted by FBI Inspector, 20 Feb 1963
with the former Margaret Grubb (LRH's first wife)
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============================================================================ Director, Philadelphia District 2/20/63 Inspector W. Beale Grove L. Ron Hubbard
Founding Church of Scientology
Dianetics Foundation Inc.
Hubbard E Mater Distribution Center, Inc.
4-893 V et al
FDC 48405
DRM/P memo 2/4/63
DRM/P memo of 2/4/63, (copy of subject memo attached to this report) requested that Mrs. Margaret Ochs, Cap, Pa., first wife of L.

Ron Hubbard, be interviewd and determine what she knows of Scientology and the current addresses of the children (Katherine and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr.) born during this marriage.

Arrangements were made to interview Mrs Margaret Ochs on 2/18/63.

I arrived [illegible] to the Och house and knocked at the door.

The door was opened by a man who identified himself as Mr. John Ochs.

I certified myself to Mr. Ochs (pronounced "Oaks") by showing him my credentials and stated that I had made arrangements to speak with his wife concerning Mr. L. Ron Hubbard. He asked me to step in and introduced ne to his wife who was sitting in the living room.

Mr. Ochs then stated that ordinarily he would be working at the [illegible] plant in Albertsville, Pa.; however, L. Ron Hubbard had sworn to "get" his wife and he wanted to be at home when I arrived to make sure that Hubbard wasn't trying to pull some trick.

I asked Mrs. Ochs if she would tell me about L. Ron Hubbard and Scientology. Mrs. Ochs indicated that she was willing to cooperate as much as possible and hoped that she didn't sound like a vindictive wife.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Interview of Mrs. Margaret (John) Ochs, Cap, Pa., has supplied the current addresses of Katherin and L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. LA District, by copy of this memo, is being requested to interview Katherine as per DRM memo of 2/4/63.

Additional leads have been set forth in this memo which you may wish to follow up.

__________________
FRANCIS H. FISKITT
Enclosed pamphlet "Scientology Supervisory Inspector
in Phoenix"

DRM/Int.
cc: LFA
LA
Bolt =========================================================================== - 2 - She gave Hubbard's background as follows: Born at Tilden, Neb.

on 3/13/11, attended high school in Helena, Montana, traveled with his parents to Guam, returned to Washington, D.C. and attended Army-Navy Prep School, entered George Washington College, Washington, D.C. (exact date not known but believed to be 1930 or '31) but flunked out during the second year. Hubbard then had trouble with the Federal authorities in 1932 for taking some bonded whiskey. (Mrs. Ochs could not supply any names or dates.)

Mrs.Ochs met Hubbard on a blind date in 1932 and was married in September 1932. From Sept.'32 until Dec.'41, Hubbard lived in or around the Georgetown area writing fiction stories and selling them to national magazines.

Hubbard was in the Navy from 12/41 until 9/45 during which time he attended a Navy training school at Princeton, had several legal entangle- ments with the Navy but his father (a Naval officer) managed to keep his son's name clear. He went directly to Secretary Knox and got a Lt. JG commission.

Mrs. Ochs indicated that Hubbard received some kind of injury during 1945 and was stationed at the Oak Knoll Navy Hospital.

All during this conversation, Mrs. Ochs repeated that Hubbard was really a genius with a misdirected mind.

When Hubbard was discharged, he went to Hollywood to become a script writer; however, his wife would not go and went to stay with Hubbard's parents in Bremerton, Washington. She apparently did not see Hubbard until she asked for a divorce in 1947. Mrs. Ochs states that she paid for her own divorce and in the divorce wsa granted $25 a month maintenance for each of the two children. (Hubbard never paid her anything in connection with the divorce.)

Mrs. Ochs states that up until the time of her divorce she had never heard of Scientology and even now could not tell me anything about the organization.

Mr. Hubbard showed up for the divorce proceedings in Port Orchard, Wash.; he had another woman with him that he was supposed to have married during 1946.

Mrs. Ochs produced two old newspaper article which gave an account of the divorce proceedings of the second wife. The articles in "The Mirror" Los Angeles, Calif. paper dated April 23. 1951 page 12, and the "Los Angeles Times" April 24, 1951 related how Mrs. Sarah Northrup Hubbard, from a Pasadena family, was kidnapped, had her child (Alexis Valery - 13 1/2 month old daughter) taken from her by Hubbard and was asking for a divorce. Mrs. Ochs believes that Hubbard's second wife is currently living in either Santa Marisco or Santa Maria, Calif., as Mrs.

Sarah Hollister.
=========================================================================== - 3 - Other articles which Mrs. Ochs had relating to Hubbard were:

1. "Look Magazine" Vol 14, 625 Dec. 5, 1950 - article titled "Dianetics - Science or Hoax?"

by Albert Q. Heibel.

2. "Newsweek" August 31, 1950, page 85 article about Hubbard's book called "Dianetics"

3. "Time" Dec. 22, 1957, page 34 article about the additing of the E meter to Scientology Mrs Ochs gave me a booklet titled "Scientology in Phoenix"

which described the organization of Scientology, gives pictures and names of individuals involved in Scientology. (The original booklet and one copy is attached for DRM's information.)

At about this point in the interview, Mrs. Ochs stated that Hubbard's father was thoroughly disgusted with his son and his crazy ideas and would probably be glad to give us any information that we might want concerning Hubbard's "scrapes" with the law.

The father's address is:

Lt. Commander H. R. Hubbard (retired)
1212 Gregory Way
Bremerton, Washington mailing address is: P.O. Box 4072
Wycuff Station
Bremerton, Washington Mrs. Ochs had two children while married to L. Ron Hubbard, a son, L. Ron Hubbard, Jr, nickname of "Nibs", and a daughter Katherine.

When she was divorced from Hubbard, the children went to live with Lt. Commander Hubbard at Bremerton, Wash. L. Ron Hubbard, Jr left the Port Orchard high school around 1949 or '50 and joined his father in Phoenix, Arizona. He apparently stayed with the organization until 1960 when he left and moved to California. Mrs. Ochs believes that her son is a security guard with some company unknown to her. His current address is 6231 Palm Ave., Bell, California.

Mrs. Ochs described her son as a gentle man, very gullible, and an easy mark for his quick-talking father.

Katherine Hubbard married Mr. Rod Whittaker in 1956. They moved to Washington, D.C. and her husband worked with Hubbard for approximately one year but apparently Whittaker and Hubbard didn't get along so Whittaker left Hubbard and divorced Katherine in 1957. Katherine then worked in the Washington, D.C. offices during 1957 and '58, until she remarried in '58. Her current name and address are:

Mrs. James P. Gillespie
7455 Belvona Ave.
Van Nuys, California
=========================================================================== - 4 - Katherine is a housewife and has lived in California for approx- mately 4 years.

Mrs. Ochs' final statement was that she believed Hubbard is now in England and has been for about 3 years. The last address she had on Hubbard, Sr. was Dr. L. Ron Hubbard, Saint Hill Manor, East Grinstead, Sussex, England. She obtained this from the American Dianetics Society bookly (Spring '62) printed at 2485 Bayer Ave., Seattle 2, Washington.

Inspector's Conclusion ---------------------- Mrs. Margaret (John) Ochs has supplied some background information on L. Ron Hubbard; however, she could not supply any information concerning Scientology. It appears that Hubbard began this organization sometime after 1947.

The current address for Katherine (daughter) is:

Mrs. James P. Gillespie
7455 Belvona Ave.
Van Nuys, California In connection with DRM's request for interviewing Katherine, we are requesting LA District by copy of this memo to interview Katherine and obtain any additional information concerning Scientology.

Current address for L. Ron Hubbard, Jr. is:

6231 Palm Ave,
Bell, California Division of Regulatory Management may want LA District to follow up on Hubbard, Jr.

Copy of a booklet concerning Scientology given to me by Mrs.

Ochs ia attached to this report. DRM may want LA District to follow up in Phoenix, Arizona.

Lt. Commander H. R. Hubbard (retired) 1212 Gregory Way, Bremerton, Washington (Seattle District) may be able to supply information on Hubbard's activities.
________________________________ W. BEALE GROVE Inspector, Philadelphia District

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