http://www.lermanet.com/audio/jeff-jacobsen-dividinglineradioshow-part1.rm
http://www.lermanet.com/audio/jeff-jacobsen-dividinglineradioshow-part2.rm
is now available at:
http://members.cox.net/batchild1/transcript/dividingline.htm
I did put a note in bold regarding a call-in listener who mentioned CAN that CAN is now run by $cientology, since this radio show took place before the Scn takeover.
Anyway, hope you enjoy!
http://members.cox.net/batchild1
http://members.cox.net/scorseseinfo
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"Dividing Line" radio show, (unknown date) with Jeff Jacobsen
Transcribed by Batchild (Sue M.)
Converted to HTML by Batchild (Sue M.)
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VOICEOVER: Now here's your host for "The Dividing Line" broadcast, the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries, James White.
JAMES WHITE: And welcome to "Dividing Line" this afternoon. Today we're joined by Mr. Jeff Jacobsen, and we are going to be addressing the subject of the Church of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard, Dianetics. You may have seen advertisements on television for the book. You may know some people that are involved with it. You just may have some questions about yourself. That's our topic this afternoon right here on "The Dividing Line".
[announcement of sponsors]
JAMES WHITE: And welcome to you on our rather blustery Saturday afternoon. I understand there is a cold front moving it that's going to turn it into a freezer around here for the next couple days, but that's okay. We sort of are enjoying this weather because right now volunteers from Alpha and Omega Ministries are witnessing to the Jehovah's Witnesses gathered at the District Assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses at the Veterans Memorial Coliseum. We'll be heading back down there in just over an hour to hold signs and to witness to folks attending that assembly. And so we--last time we did this, it was in the middle of June, it was 114 degrees and we about died. Now it's cold and windy so we, we can't seem to find a nice pleasant in-between some place, but I would much rather have it a little bit cold and blustery than as hot as it was last time we were out there. Today we begin a new subject we are going to take two weeks to discuss, a subject that I personally don't know a whole lot about, to be perfectly honest with you, and that is the subject of Scientology, the Church of Scientology, which, of course, is basically wrapped around the person of L. Ron Hubbard and his writings. Most of us are somewhat familiar with at least the name. I know that I am familiar with it from seeing advertisements for the book every once in a while on television; advertisements that say, you know, "get your life", you know, "on track" and things like this in advertising for the book. And I have also heard a lot of discussion about how controversial the Church of Scientology is. I have heard radio programs that have discussed the numerous lawsuits and things like this that the Church has been involved in. But as far as their actual doctrinal beliefs or the particular lawsuits or people involved and things like that, I was pretty much in the dark until a couple of years ago. There was some big thing that came out concerning various documents that were made public; in Los Angeles, as I recall, is where it was. And when these documents came out, they ended up being rather embarrassing to the Church, at least from my perspective; what I heard they said was rather amazing. And then the next thing I, I heard about Scientology is when our guest today, Jeff Jacobsen, brought me a short article that he had put together that basically outlines some of the main areas of discussion relevant to Scientology. And that's when I first started finding out anything about the group as far as actual documentation. So Jeff, it's nice to have you with us today. Basically, I think what I'll probably do is just ask you the basic questions that probably the people in our audience would have as well, and that is, I guess you need to start in talking about Scientology with the founder of Scientology, L. Ron Hubbard. But he's a rather interesting person of himself, or was, anyways. Where--when did all this get started? How did L. Ron Hubbard get involved in all of this stuff?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Well, it's good to be here today. The L. Ron Hubbard history is kind of difficult to follow because he claims a lot of things that turn out not to be true. So to find out about L. Ron Hubbard, you have to do a lot of work. Fortunately, there's a guy named Michael Lynn Shannon that's already done all that work. He went through all of Hubbard's claims for his life and asked those people--for example, he claimed to have been the author of an important geological study in Costa Rica in the 1920s. So Michael Shannon wrote to the Costa Rica--he wrote to some expeditions, he wrote to National Geographic Society, any place he could think of that would know about this. And no one knew--
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --about this, L. Ron Hubbard's accomplishments there. So basically what we know about L. Ron Hubbard, he was born in Nebraska in 1911. Um, when he was growing up, he moved around a lot with his family. In college, he went to Georgetown--excuse me, George Washington University for two years; he never graduated. He took one nuclear physics course which he makes a lot of claims about, but he got an F in the class. He had a D average when he got out of school. He was a glider pilot for a while and since a young age he has been a science fiction writer up to the time of his death. There are several, um, books out now. There is a 10-volume science fiction set that, that was out--I think it just started coming out just before he died in January of '86; it's called Mission Earth is the whole set. So--
JAMES WHITE: When did he die?
JEFF JACOBSEN: He died January of '86, we think. (laughter) Because he's been in seclusion for several years up to--I think the last time he was, uh, heard from in public was '79.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Actually. Um, so there was a court case where he, uh, wrote a statement saying "I am alive but I just choose to be in private at this time" and he had his thumb print on each page and he signed each page. So that seems to be that he was at least alive till then.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: But, like everything in his life it seems it's hard to distinguish exactly what happened.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, anyway, I'm giving a little bit of his history because so many claims that he makes, I think it's important to see that, uh, he's not very good at sticking with the truth.
JAMES WHITE: (laughing) I'll say.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Being a science fiction writer, really aggrandizing his past history, um, things like that are important to studying Scientology, I believe. So anyway, and during World War II, he claims he was a war hero, a squadron leader, an intelligence officer for the U.S. And none of that turns out to be true. He was, uh, in the Navy. He commanded a boat called the USS PC815 and that was just, just commissioned when he got charge of that boat. He took it from the East Coast to the West Coast. When he got on the West Coast, I believe there were some inhabited islands controlled by Mexico and he decided to do some test-firing of the guns. And those islands just happened to be in the line of the sight of the gun-firing. So he was relieved of his duties.
JAMES WHITE: (laughs)
JEFF JACOBSEN: That's basically what he did--
JAMES WHITE: Uh-huh--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --during the war. Um, okay, I could, I could go through a lot of things that he said he was doing that he never did. He claimed to be a leader of an Alaskan radio experimental expedition. And so when you write to the people that were on that expedition [gap] --so that's one point I want to make about this man.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Now, getting to the point of "Where does Dianetics come from?", again, like I said, he's a science fiction writer and, um, there is a claim that's not to my point completely proven, but I think it's proven enough for me to put it in my article.
JAMES WHITE: (laughs)
JEFF JACOBSEN: And it quotes L. Ron Hubbard as saying, "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So a little while after he, um, stated that, he published the book Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health. That was published in 1950. In that book, he claims he began his research into Dianetics in 1935, and in 1948, he wrote his first article about Dianetics, so the public had the first inkling of what's going to come in 1948.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Now Dianetics the book is considered a self-help book. In other words, anybody can pick up this book and do Dianetics on your own; you don't need L. Ron Hubbard after you read his book. But in 1954, he founded the Church of Scientology. And the doctrines there require L. Ron Hubbard. If you want to, to get to what you might call "Scientology heaven", you have to follow exactly what Hubbard says. And he has to be your guru. You could essentially call him a guru. Um, another, another amazing part of his life, I guess, would, would be in 1965, he announced that he had obtained the state of Clear. And that's the goal of Sci--of Dianetics, and essentially Scientology.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm. Are there other Clears today?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, there's, um--that's another point of dispute. Like "Who is the first Clear?" At one point, he said his wife, his first wife was, became the first Clear, but she divorced him and claimed in the suit, divorce suit, that he was mentally deranged and had beaten her.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So now he claimed--then he, later he claimed another guy named McMaster was the first Clear. And I--it seems to me, though, that he would have to be the first Clear if he would discover Clear.
JAMES WHITE: (laughing) Right.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So that's a point of contention.
JAMES WHITE: Now we'll have to get into defining what "clear" and "preclear"--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Sure--
JAMES WHITE: --and things like that--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah--
JAMES WHITE: --like that are.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So anyway, and then, then, like I say, he died, we think, in January of 1986. He was married twice. As I said, his first wife filed for divorce. His second wife, named Mary Sue, went to prison for conspiracy against the U.S. government.
JAMES WHITE: Uh-huh.
JEFF JACOBSEN: I think that was in '85.
JAMES WHITE: Has she, she's been released by now?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, she was sentenced to four years but, uh, someone told me she only actually was in jail for a year.
JAMES WHITE: I see.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Uh, now getting to the doctrine--Dianetics and Scientology, by the way, are completely interlinked. You can't really very easily separate them.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: They say that Dianetics deals more with the mental and the physical plane, you could say, whereas Scientology deals with the soul and the spirit.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: But really when you get down to it, if you're--if you're in the Church of Scientology, you're going to be performing Dianetics using Dianetics material.
JAMES WHITE: Okay.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, the basic premise of Dianetics is that the mind is divided into two parts. Um, I'm gonna do this as least technically as I possibly can, but I'm just showing--Jim here saw my Dianetics and Scientology dictionary which is about two inches thick.
JAMES WHITE: Yeah.
JEFF JACOBSEN: It's got 476 pages, so it can get very technical. When you read their material, if you don't know much about it, it's just like reading Japanese or something.
JAMES WHITE: Right, right. So it's got its own language then.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, oh, yeah. Um, okay, so the mind has two parts. One is called the "reactive mind" and the other part is called the "analytical mind". The analytical mind is essentially perfect. If, if all you had was the analytical mind, you would never make mistakes. You would have total recall and all of this. So the goal of Dianetics is to clear the reactive mind of what are stored memories in the reactive mind are called "engrams".
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: If you can clear all the engrams out of the reactive mind, then you have essentially like a perfect person.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm, okay.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So the way that you get rid of the engrams is you, um, through a thing called auditing, which is, you have an auditor, um, sit across from you and you hold two tin cans in your hands which are connected to a, basically a skin response galvanometer, uh, which the Church charges about from $900 to $2300 for. And I think, uh, I heard that at Radio Shack you can get almost the same thing. You could build it yourself for about 50 bucks or so.
JAMES WHITE: Sure. Oh, yeah.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Uh, (laughs), anyway, so now the E-meter has a needle on it and this needle moves supposedly when they find an engram.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You, you relive parts of your past and when, when something comes up in your past that indicates on the needle that there is an engram, then you have to relive the experience that you were discussing until that engram disappears. Okay, now they say it generally takes 1-2 years to get rid of all your engrams and generally about 250 hours of auditing. Now, um, auditing costs about $200 an hour. So 200 times 250 is--
JAMES WHITE: A lot of money.
JEFF JACOBSEN: A lot of money, let's just say that. (laughter) And the point of that--just speaking of money real quick--a point of that is that, um, auditing is not all the things you do. You have several courses. You take courses on how to audit. You can learn how to audit yourself and so on, so many people have paid thousands and thousands of dollars.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And never not even achieved the Clear state. Um, anyway, so now after this one or two years, you've gotten rid of all your engrams and you're feeling pretty good supposedly. Now, uh, some claims for Clears in the book Dianetics are that you have incredibly increased IQ. You no longer have colds. You don't have accidents because a perfect person doesn't make mistakes.
JAMES WHITE: Right.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, a long--you're gonna live a longer life and it says for every one hour of auditing you should have a 100 hour increase in your life span.
JAMES WHITE: Oh, my.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You have total recall. You can remember everything in your life from conception up to now. And perhaps, he didn't know at the time of the writing, but he thought it could also cure cancer.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm. Then so he's saying that things like cancer and short life and things like that are due to the presence of engrams?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, just about pretty much everything that's problematic with people is caused by engrams--arthritis, headaches, colds.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm. Okay (laughing), all right. Well, now, um, the other doctrinal aspects of, of the Church, they come from other sources other than just the book Dianetics, do they not?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah. As I said, Scientology--when, when Dianetics came out, I think Hubbard got the idea, "Well, wait a minute. Now the book's out and then the book says it's a do-it-yourself book, so I don't have any control over anybody!" (laughter) This is my opinion, um, what happened. So he designed the Church for two reasons: One, I think, so he could have control; two, to avoid tax problems.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Uh, now some doctrines in Scientology, um--by the way, if you become--if you go to Scientology, they'll tell you that, that you can maintain your religion and still be a Scientologist. If you're a Catholic now, um, nothing in, in Scientology will interfere with your beliefs as a Catholic. However, they do believe in reincarnation; that's the basis of Scientology.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So I think that does conflict--
JAMES WHITE: Obviously--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --with Christian belief. Um, there's a lot of history of the universe in Scientology that seems quite, to me, to be more science fiction written by L. Ron Hubbard.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, there is a great ruler 75 million years ago named Xemu--
JAMES WHITE: Where was Xemu ruling?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um--
JAMES WHITE: --on this planet or another planet?
JEFF JACOBSEN: He was ruling 90 planets, a confederation of 90 planets of which the Earth, which was called something like Tee-geech or something [Teegeeack], was part of this confederation.
JAMES WHITE: Okay.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So, um, Xemu got upset because there was an overpopulation problem. So what he did was, he threw a bunch of people --I don't know how he picked them, but he threw a lot of people into these volcanoes, I think Hawaii was one of the volcanoes, and killed those people. But he wasn't satisfied with just dropping them into the volcano; he also blew them up with an atomic bomb.
JAMES WHITE: Oh.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So basically he killed them. But man-- (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: That normally is the result of being dropped into a volcano and blown up by an atomic bomb!
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah. But man, it turns out, is a spirit, or has a soul, which Scientology calls a thetan. And the soul is actually, uh, the basis of a human being, not his body. So I don't know why Xemu was so mad at their bodies. But, now because of Xemu, anyway, he, uh, somehow instilled in people, um, the badness that we have in our lives. Man was essentially, I guess, perfect but then this Xemu guy came around and, and messed everything up. So it's because of him, basically, that we have all our problems. And, so between 75 million years ago and today, there was no way really out of this problem until L. Ron Hubbard stepped forward with Dianetics and Scientology.
JAMES WHITE: Okay, now, the thetans--as I understand, the thetans were released from these bodies that were thrown into the volcanoes somehow and--are these thetans still around, or are we--are, is there a reincarnational scheme where these thetans have entered back into physical bodies? What, what is the story with that?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, well, that's our history. We were some of those thetans.
JAMES WHITE: Okay.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, the, the story of this comes from a level called OT-3. When you become a Clear, that's good, but there's still more levels that Hubbard has to teach you about in life.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And it goes up to OT8. And he had worked on up to OT11 before he died but only disseminated up to OT8. OT3 is this history of Xemu. It costs you about, if I remember correctly, it's about $12,000 to take the OT3 level course. I've got it, I mean, if you want to look at it, you know, give me a ring! (laughter) I've got it. It's not worth that much money, I don't think. Also, there's a, a break-off from Scientology that will charge $1500 for the same course. So what a deal!
JAMES WHITE: Discount, yeah.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah. (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: Okay. Now you're, you're talking about OT, that means Operating Thetan, doesn't it?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, right.
JAMES WHITE: Okay, so, so after a person goes through all of this auditing and all of these engrams removed, they become a Clear; but that isn't it. You continue on with OT1, OT2, OT3, up through OT8.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah.
JAMES WHITE: And these are Operating Thetan levels that are rather expensive, uh, to take. In fact, has anyone figured out what it would cost to start today and take all the courses all the way through OT8? I mean, I've heard some outrageous figures--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah--
JAMES WHITE: --quoted with reference to that.
JEFF JACOBSEN: The Reader's Digest article has mentioned one man that paid $200,000 and he never even became a Clear. Um, the deal is, there's so many other courses you can take besides auditing and besides the OT levels and they push those a lot and become a Clear until you learn how to audit or you learn how to be audited, or something like that. So you're taking all these other courses, you're reading all of these L. Ron Hubbard books, listening to tapes, um--there's no way to know. (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: Okay. But it could definitely get into the hundreds--
JEFF JACOBSEN: It has--
JAMES WHITE: --hundred thousand dollars--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Oh, yeah, it has.
JAMES WHITE: My goodness! And this money is going to whom?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Well, um--
JAMES WHITE: To the Church of Scientology?
JEFF JACOBSEN: There's a, a court case coming up which I guess we're gonna speak about next week--
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, it's a $1 billion lawsuit against the Church stating that the Church basically is just a fraud. It's fraudulent business practices is how I was told the plaintiffs are--what the plaintiffs are complaining about.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, the money seems to be going to, um, until he died, L. Ron Hubbard, a lot of it. And a lot of it now is being funneled into a private corporation run by his--the people who took over from him.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm. Now, next week, we'll be talking with the spokesperson for that, those plaintiffs, Valerie Stansfield, and she'll probably be able to give us the complete specifics on that. Uh, before we continue talking about Dianetics, we're gonna take a brief break and, um, we'd like to try to answer your questions at 278-5555, 278-5555, about L. Ron Hubbard and the Church of Scientology. We're gonna take a brief break and be right back.
[break]
JAMES WHITE: And welcome back to The Dividing Line this afternoon. My name is James White. I'm the director of Alpha and Omega Ministries. My guest today is Mr. Jeff Jacobsen who has done a great deal of study into the Church of Scientology. And today we are taking advantage of that study and finding out, uh, just what the Church of Scientology teaches and why all of the flack, uh, that I have heard, anyways, in the past number of years concerning the Church, its practices, lawsuits, counterlawsuits, this, that and the other thing, concerning the Church of Scientology. We have just got done discussing the fact that once you get into the OT3 level course, you find out that 75 million years ago, an evil ruler by the name of Xemu dropped a lot of people into volcanoes and blew 'em up with atomic bombs. Now, Jeff, um, I don't know, I--when I first--the first time I ever read that, the first time I ever heard about that, uh, was in a--in a newsletter from a friend of mine who has a ministry in California; you may know of him, named Wally Tope. And Wally mainly works with Mormonism but he dedicated some space in his newsletter to the quotation of the various court documents that came out and talked about Xemu and his volcanoes, atomic bombs and thetans. And, to be perfectly honest with you, I just recently, for example, showed your article to, uh, someone who knows a Scientologist, and that person couldn't believe that I was actually telling the truth. I mean, a rational individual will look at this type of material and will probably laugh at you. How could anyone possibly actually spend thousands of dollars to take a course that talks about an evil ruler named Xemu from 75 million years ago? This-- (laughs) --this simply sounds amazing! (laughs)
JEFF JACOBSEN: Funny you should mention that! (laughter). Because I just clipped out of the paper from 12/8/87, "Unlucky investors hopped on rabbit scheme"! (laughter) I think people just don't, uh--too trusting, you might say, at times. Um, this rabbit scheme here is just an incredible hoax and it's been proven to be a hoax. And yet, it says, "But only 11 people had given up on the super-rabbit, Green, and wanted their money back." It's, uh--I don't know. It's--
JAMES WHITE: People are just, just that kind of, kind of individuals? Or?
JEFF JACOBSEN: It's--it's too easy--I think people are almost trained to trust people.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And when you, you--someone says. "I have a way for you to become a perfect person; you'll have no more colds, you'll have a higher IQ, and thousands of people have already taken this course and it's helped them dramatically"--gee, I could make a commercial for them! (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: Yeah. Well, could it possibly be that once a person has plunked down a couple thousand dollars, even though the logical portion of their mind is saying, "Wait a minute, uh, a 75-million-year-old Xemu some place, this doesn't sound quite logical", they might have problems admitting that they have made a couple thousand dollar mistake and they go on with it just simply to save face?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Well, the OT--the OT3 level, it takes you a long time--at least, I would say two years--to get there.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So by that time, um, you, you're thinking like a Scientologist. And the beginning, most people join Scientology by taking a free course or a very cheap course in communications. And that's done really well, apparently. I have a friend that's a Masters degree in interpersonal communications and she says that that's very well done.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: The--so, right off they do something for you that's good and helpful. And you say, "Well, hey, hmm, it's pretty good so far". So then you can--they have apparent proofs. They have people, John Travolta is a Scientologist, Chick Corea is a Scientologist, and there's famous people that expound on the, the benefits of Dianetics and Scientology. John Brodie, you might have seen on TV claiming that it's helped him dramatically.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So, um, it's not like you're just going in and all of a sudden they hit you with this Xemu stuff.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You know, it's--it's a gradual thing that you, you build up to. And I believe that's one reason that--sure, if you start out with the crazy stuff, nobody's gonna believe it.
JAMES WHITE: Right, right. Well, that seems to be a common element amongst cultic organizations is, for example, for the past number of weeks, we've been talking about the fact that the Mormon Temple ceremonies are not open to an individual until they've been a member of the Mormon Church for a year, and they, you know, you don't just walk into someone's home and start talking to them about the Mormon Temple ceremonies. You start off much more slowly with much more basic material.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um-hmm.
JAMES WHITE: Um, this sounds much more familiar, and then after you've gotten them used to it, then you can introduce them to the deeper doctrines of the, of the faith, shall we say. Now relevant to the teachings of, of the Church of Scientology, what role does God have in all of this? (laughs)
JEFF JACOBSEN: Well, yeah, you may--you may notice I've never mentioned God yet. The--he essentially plays, as far as I can tell, no role. I've got a--my Scientology box, I call it here--that's full of all kinds of articles, actual Church documents, books, everything I've read, they never really mention God. Uh, the only thing I've ever seen about it is something about the OT8, you learn something about God there. Um, that's all I really know about that.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm. Uh, have you seen any mention of Jesus Christ or the Holy Spirit or any of the, the normal areas of discussion for, for a Christian? Or are these topics predominantly ignored?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Predominantly ignored. (laughter) The--I think I said that, uh, when you go in, they say, "Your religion doesn't matter."
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You know, and I think that's the case with God; since God doesn't matter, then that subject never comes up. So apparently on the surface it does seem to not interfere. But again, like I said, there--reincarnation seems to me to be a big, big interference with Christian beliefs.
JAMES WHITE: Certainly--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --at least for one. And Xemu I don't think is in the Bible anywhere. (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: No, I certainly never heard of him. Well, I think that's a false dichotomy, though, on their part to say that this could go along with your religious beliefs because seemingly from what you've said, Dianetics is supposed to affect your entire life--how you think, how you act, how you live. And I can't see how a person's religious faith would not also have the same, you know, the same connection. So it--it almost sounds like, um--well, Buddhism, for example, is a practically atheistic religion. There is no true personal God in Buddhism. It emphasizes living in a certain way and it emphasizes--
[gap]
JAMES WHITE: --and having the answers within himself, this type of philosophy that seems to be very, very popular amongst many people today.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, the--Scientology is like a, a technological religion, you might say. It says, "There is a process and if you go through this process, you will be saved.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: It's not like Christianity that says, "You have to go to God and through the grace of God you will be saved."
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: It's, it's that you can do it. You learn how, you do it, you're saved.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You spend the money, too.
JAMES WHITE: (laughs) Yeah.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Um, so that's a big difference between any other religion, I think. It's, it's, um, more technical; it's a technical field.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Rather than, than a, um, like a loving doctrine which I see of Christianity. Another interesting thing about that is Scientology is considered--their doctrines are considered by the Church to be a trade secret. And they've gone to court on that basis to try and stop other branch groups that have broken off from Scientology from teaching Scientological doctrine (laughter). Now the problem with that, that they had was the lawyers could not say that this is, this is a trade secret and, like it's a business.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Because they're, they're not claiming to be a business; they're claiming to be a church. Okay. So because of that, the courts said, "No way. A religion is not something that's, that's guarded by the", you know, "trade secrets laws."
JAMES WHITE: Of course.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, it's like, like if I said, uh, "Jesus died on the cross for you, but if anybody else teaches that"--
JAMES WHITE: "We're gonna sue"--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --"then I'm gonna sue", yeah! (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: Okay. Amazing, truly amazing. Now in your article, um, Jeff, you talk about some of the actions of the Church of Scientology. Um, and some of these are truly amazing. Um, some of the, the things that the Church seemingly has done, especially in, in relevance to those who have basically come out and said, "Hey, Scientology is, is not true. It's, it's just simply false." Um, what are some of the, some of the things that Scientology has done relevant to people coming against and saying something negative about Scientology?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Okay, first let me explain that the reason they do that is because Hubbard ordered them to do that. I'll read some of the things Hubbard has said. He gives off these papers called HCO policy letters. Uh, the one from 18 October 1967, Number 4, says, "Enemy: SP Order"--"SP" means "suppressive person", by the way--"Fair Game: May be deprived of property or injured by any means by any Scientologist without any discipline of the Scientologist. May be tricked, sued or lied to or destroyed." Uh, I got a couple of ones; let me read another one here. "Find or manufacture enough threat against them to cause them to sue for peace." This is speaking about someone who's speaking against Scientology; that's what an SP is, someone who speaks against Scientology, which seems to be maybe me! (laughter) "Originate a black PR campaign to destroy the person's repute and to discredit them so thoroughly they will be ostracized. Be very alert to sue for slander at the slightest chance so as to discourage the public presses from mentioning Scientology. The purpose of the suit is to harass and discourage rather than to win."
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Okay. Now there was a woman named Paulette Cooper who wrote a book called, The Scandal of Scientology. She, um, had printed--the book had been published and then the Church decided that they didn't like this book, which they shouldn't because it's very anti-Scientology. So they started the operation known as Operation Freakout. And I'll read the top of the page. This is a photocopy of an actual Church document that was seized when the FBI raided the Church in 1977. Uh, it's kind of interesting that the FBI would raid a church headquarters, but anyway (laughter). Okay, it says "Operation Freakout. Major target: To get PC"--meaning Paulette Cooper--"incarcerated in a mental ho"--excuse me--"in a mental institution or jail or at least to hit her so hard that she drops her attacks." And then the next several pages explain how they're going to do this. One of the things they did, they got, um, a gentleman to befriend her. He got some of her stationery with her fingerprints on it. The Church took that, wrote a death--a bomb threat to the Church of Scientology, sent it to the Church of Scientology and the Church called the FBI. The FBI arrested Paulette Cooper for, um, attempting to blow up the Church of Scientology. She was, uh--they filed 18 lawsuits against her. Uh, she did finally have a nervous breakdown. She countersued the Church and the end result was that they settled out of court and part of that was that Paulette Cooper can no longer speak out against the Church.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And that's--a lot of the times when they, uh, settle out of court, that's one of the, um, requirements that they have for the people that they settle with.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So it's very difficult to find someone who could--who is an ex-Scientologist that's willing to speak out against the Church.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: For that, for these reasons.
JAMES WHITE: Oh, my.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah. It's--I could go on and on. That's the thing I have the most of, in fact. Uh, there's a, a doctor Dr. John Clark. He works for the American Family Foundation which is a big, uh, organization that provides information on cults. The Church of Scientology put out a large ad in the Boston Herald, I have a copy of here, that says at the headline, "Have your rights been violated by psychiatrist John G. Clark? The Church of Scientology is seeking information to determine that psychiatrist John G. Clark of Massachusetts may be engaged in the following activities". It names a lot of terrible things, "Invasion of privacy, engaging in anti-religious activities" and all of these kinds of things. They--they really laid it on thick and heavy for him, so that he finally filed a lawsuit against them also. That's still in litigation.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: I can go on and on, let me tell you (laughter). I'll tell you a case that was won against the Church. Um, a man named Larry Wollersheim won a $30 million lawsuit against the Church. He claimed that they had, uh, ruined his psychic health, mental health and had destroyed his business. And the jury awarded him $30 million in the belief that that was the actual case.
JAMES WHITE: (laughs) That's a lot of money!
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, and they really screamed about that. They even had Chick Corea and all those guys in a big parade and everything against that.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm. Now, the--a lot of these cases are still in, in litigation. In fact, one that we'll be talking about next week, uh, was only filed this year, as I understand, and (laughs) a billion dollar lawsuit normally doesn't go zooming through the courts at any massive rate of speed. But, um, how many--has anyone even kept track of the number of lawsuits that the Church of Scientology has filed against other individuals, and vice-versa?
JEFF JACOBSEN: I was going to try and determine that, but it's so--it's really difficult. Um, and a lot of times when they settle out of court, then I think that's, in a way, bad because then you don't--there's no definite--
JAMES WHITE: Right--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --statement that yes, the Church is doing something bad or whatever.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You know. There was another interesting case I should mention. Gerry Armstrong was a prominent member of the Church. He was assigned to write a biography of L. Ron Hubbard. So they gave him a lot of, uh, documents about his past and such. And he felt that those documents indicated that L. Ron Hubbard had--
JAMES WHITE: Misrepresented--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --misrepresented his past, yes. (laughter) So he mentioned that to the Church and they said, "Well, no, we should go with", you know, "follow this--this is what we're gonna write." Uh, so he felt that that was incorrect and he left. And also because he knew about this Fair Game policy and those many quotes I could quote about what L. Ron Hubbard said about suppressive people, he took those documents with him as insurance against any attacks that the Church might have against him. Of course, the Church did attack him and they filed suit. And in the court case, a lot of interesting information came out. One was that, uh, he was--L. Ron Hubbard had been associated with Aleister Crowley in the past.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And had been involved in black magic and things like that. Um--
JAMES WHITE: Aleister Crowley was a rather interesting person.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, that was, uh, a very interesting case. And he was allowed to, um, if I recall correctly, keep those documents, because he, he proved that they would, you know, in effect (laughter) harass him--
JAMES WHITE: Sure--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --because of that. That's, that's another good case to study. Um, by the way, if, you know, if anybody wants to get, delve more deeply into this, I have a lot of documentation on, on these things.
JAMES WHITE: Sure. Uh, right before we take a break, and we are gonna take a break in just a second, uh, people's First Amendment rights of freedom of speech are, are being threatened by, um, a situation where they are, are afraid to speak out about that which they know or that which they feel is wrong, uh, and just really amazed at, at the, uh, ferocity, shall we say, of lawsuits that, that are filed and counterfiled. And most people just simply can't, don't have the time or can't afford to defend themselves against that type of a situation, so--truly amazing! We're--we're gonna come back right after this break and we'd like to hear from you at 278-5555, 278-5555. If you have a question or comment for our guest Jeff Jacobsen, just pick up the phone and dial 278-5555. And we'll be right back.
[break]
JAMES WHITE: And it's 18 minutes before 4 o'clock. And in about 18 minutes I'm going to be making tracks out of here heading for the District Assembly of Jehovah's Witnesses. If you're out and around, you might want to swing by Encanto Blvd. and 19th Av. and see some of us out there with our signs and, uh, attempting to, uh, get some of the Jehovah's Witnesses there to think about their beliefs, to call our phone line for Jehovah's Witnesses at 266-2JWS. In fact, you might be interested in calling that message this week. We're holding a big, long 22-foot banner that basically asks the question, uh, "Why did three of the governing body members want to change the teaching of 1914 to 1957?" And then the phone number is placed after that. And if you'd be interested in knowing that, too, uh, you're invited to call our phone line for Jehovah's Witnesses at 266-2JWS. And don't forget about our other phone lines as well: 266-2LDS, 266-2RCC. Pick those phone lines up and give 'em a call and we'll talk to you at that, at that time. Uh, we're gonna take a phone caller here for Jeff Jacobsen. Our topic today is Scientology and we will go to Glendale with Belva. Hello, Belva.
BELVA: Hello. I don't know if my friend is involved with Scientology or not. I was just curious about this. She says that she is with the emissaries. Does that mean anything?
JAMES WHITE: Um, I don't think that's associated with the Church of Scientology. Uh, Jeff doesn't, doesn't seem to recognize the, the name and, come to think of it, I, I don't either. Has, has she described anything of their beliefs?
BELVA: Not really. I know that it's a lot of this mind over power, or mind power kind of thing. Um, she used to be a fundamentalist and then her husband was an alcoholic and he got into this and got group therapy and stuff and was straightened out. And then that's how she got into it. And I don't know really anything else about it, but it sounded kind of, um, strange to me.
JAMES WHITE: Uh, huh.
BELVA: And I just, she keeps saying something about she's with the emissary group and I didn't know.
JAMES WHITE: Yeah. Well, probably the best thing that I could suggest would be to get a hold of any type of printed literature, uh, from the organization that would describe, uh, who they are, where they're coming from, with whom they're associated, you know, where are their headquarters, is there a particular leader involved? That's the best way to determine the nature and characteristics of, of these groups is to actually get material from them themselves, uh, to determine what their teachings are and who they are.
BELVA: Okay.
JAMES WHITE: So if, if you'd like to, to do that, uh, if you wanted to get a hold of that information and then contact us, we might be able to help you from there.
BELVA: Thank you very much. I really appreciate your program. It's been so educational. I've learned so much that I had no idea! (laughs)
JAMES WHITE: Okay. Well, we appreciate your comments. Thank you very much.
BELVA: Bye.
JAMES WHITE: Bye-bye. 278-5555. You want to add something there?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Oh, I was gonna say if, uh, if she wanted to leave her number at your, uh, with Alpha and Omega Ministries, then I could, uh, look that up for her.
JAMES WHITE: Right. In fact, for a long time (laughs) --for a number of years now whenever we've gotten, uh, letters and, and questions about groups that we hadn't the foggiest idea of where they were coming from, I always picked up the phone and called Jeff, because, uh, Jeff has, has a way of tracking down these strange and, and unusual groups (laughs) that exist all across the U.S.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, there are quite a few organizations in the country that deal specifically with, uh, cults, and either they would know about the group or they would know someone who would know. There is sort of a network in the country--
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --to help people. So we can tap into that and usually find out the information.
JAMES WHITE: Good, super. Okay, 278-5555. We have another phone caller on the line but we're not quite ready to that that phone call yet. Um--
JEFF JACOBSEN: We can have another call if you want--
JAMES WHITE: Uh, sure, if you've got another call for me, go ahead.
JEFF JACOBSEN: You see, we're saying all these terrible things that Scientology does and, and, for example, when Mary Sue Hubbard, uh, was infiltrating the U.S. government and finding out information--
JAMES WHITE: Wait, what?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Well, Mary Sue Hubbard got in trouble and wounded up in jail because she was infiltrating the Church--
JAMES WHITE: Now Mary Sue Hubbard is whom?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Hubbard's wife, second wife.
JAMES WHITE: Okay.
JEFF JACOBSEN: She's out of jail now. But it's because Hubbard taught those things and I've given two courts--excuse me, two quotes already; I'll give another quick one and then we'll go to the call. Uh, this is a quote: "Spot who is attacking us. Start investigating them promptly for felonies or worse using our own professionals, not outside agencies. Double curve our reply by saying 'We welcome an investigation of them.' Start feeding lurid blood, sex, crime, actual evidence on the attackers to the press. Don't ever tamely submit to an investigation of us. Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way."
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Hubbard himself said that in 1966.
JAMES WHITE: My goodness! Well, that's not exactly the most friendly attitude I've ever heard! (laughs) 278-5555. We're going to Glendale again and this is Lucy. Hello, Lucy.
LUCY: Hello. I'm just calling to say that I'm a, a Suppressive Person.
JAMES WHITE: Okay (laughter).
LUCY: Uh, my son was involved in Scientology. He was in for about seven years. And it was a very destructive experience.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
LUCY: It was very damaging to his life. It started out with, um, as Jeff said, you know, seemingly very good. And they told him, just as Jeff said, that, uh, it would not, not conflict with his religion--which, of course, it did. By the time he was, uh, had been in this long and had gone through a lot, they kind of turned on him and it brought him to the point where he was considering suicide. And I would just like to urge people who have loved ones involved in Scientology that they try to get them out. And they can do this by contacting one of several, uh, anti-cult groups. The one that I contacted was called Citizens Freedom Foundation at that time. It's now the Cult Awareness Network [NOTE: Be warned that since this interview, the Cult Awareness Network was taken over by the Church of Scientology in 1996 and is now being run by Scientology!]
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
LUCY: But I think people should be very concerned because it is very destructive to people.
JAMES WHITE: Now how did--how was--how did he originally contact? Uh, how was he contacted by Scientology?
LUCY: Um, a businessman stopped by my husband's office and left a card and it was not represented as a religion or a church. It was represented as an, an applied philosophy.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
LUCY: And so, he was 18 at the time. But I went in to check it out and they do have the free sessions. And, um, oh, everybody was very, very friendly; it was almost instant friendship. It was very impressive. I couldn't see any harm there. It's an insidious thing; you don't realize what you're getting into.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
LUCY: And you start out with the free courses, then the $25 courses, then the $125 courses, and it goes up from there.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
LUCY: And they urge their people to, you know, get the money any way they can--take out loans, sell their houses, do whatever they have to do. And I know the, the Scientologists that I knew through my son--none of them owned homes. They couldn't--all of their money was going to Scientology.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
LUCY: All of their time was going to Scientology. This is why I became concerned is because they were spending all of their time at Scientology, my son and his wife, and all of their money was going to Scientology.
JAMES WHITE: Um-hmm.
LUCY: He bought $2500 worth of their, their books when they can, could hardly afford to pay rent or, or buy food.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm. Now, what's, what's the situation now, if I may ask?
LUCY: I, I was able to get him out. Well, a series of events occurred, but he, uh--I had made--I couldn't find any contacts here in Phoenix, which was very discouraging. But through this Citizens Freedom Foundation, I made contacts throughout the country and they put me in touch with some deprogrammers. And so when he finally began to question a little bit and decided that maybe, in fact, Scientology was a fraud, then I, I contacted one of the deprogrammers and, and he was deprogrammed and it was on a voluntary basis. He was perfectly willing to do it. That was five years ago. At that time, when he, when he was still in Scientology, he was not able to hold a job, not able to really function. Sometimes he acted like a looney tune! Sometimes if I wouldn't have known better, I would have thought he was on drugs.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
LUCY: He has worked steadily. He's remarried--he had gone through a divorce. He's remarried and is doing very well.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
LUCY: He's very--I guess you would say embarrassed and ashamed that he was so gullible as to be taken in by it, and he doesn't even want to talk about it.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
LUCY: He's doing very well now that he's through with Scientology.
JAMES WHITE: Yeah. I would imagine that's a common thing for many people who have left it is, "I don't want to talk about it."
LUCY: Oh, this is very typical, "I don't walk to talk about it." And a lot of people who were in the same time he was in, we have heard, have left. So a lot of people do become disenchanted after a while.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
LUCY: Very, very extensive.
JAMES WHITE: Oh, yes, of course.
LUCY: Uh-huh. But I just thought maybe you would be interested in hearing that.
JAMES WHITE: Okay. I appreciate your phone call today. Thank you very much.
LUCY: Thanks.
JAMES WHITE: Bye-bye. 278-5555. We go to North Phoenix with Gary. Hello, Gary.
GARY: Hi, how are you doing?
JAMES WHITE: Pretty good.
GARY: Uh, someone close to me is in this and I think that they've probably spent thousands on their Scientology courses. And my question--I just want to know, uh, what is the best book on the subject right now, in the sense of the Gospel and to study up on it?
JEFF JACOBSEN: Well, there's a new one out called L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah or Madman? I've read mixed reviews on that. That's the newest book. The book that I really like a lot is called Religion, Inc.--
GARY: Okay--
JEFF JACOBSEN: --by a man named Stewart Lamont. Now, this is a British book. It's, uh,--the publisher is H-A-R-R-A-P, Harrap, I guess. And I had to get it through Canada. But now I hear that it is, is available in the U.S.
GARY: Okay. Otherwise, uh, L. Ron Hubbard: Messiah--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Messiah or Madman?.
GARY: --or Madman?.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Now that one I, I haven't read, as I said, but I've--I've read some good reviews and some bad reviews on that book.
GARY: Yeah.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Uh, L. Ron Hubbard's son helped to write that book a little bit.
GARY: Um-hmm. Okay, thank you.
JAMES WHITE: Okay, thank you.
GARY: Bye.
JAMES WHITE: Bye-bye. 278-5555. I'm a little bit surprised at the, at the number of phone calls, uh, simply due to the fact that, um, I have had people contact me with questions about Scientology. Is there any way of--are there any figures as to, uh, how many people are involved in Scientology?
JEFF JACOBSEN: No, that's--one thing about cults is, is it's very difficult to figure out how many people are involved. Um, I've seen--the highest I think I've seen is 5 million worldwide.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And the lowest I've seen is 100,000 (laughter)
JAMES WHITE: So there's a big range!
JEFF JACOBSEN: Yeah, it's quite difficult to tell. Last year there was a 37th anniversary of the writing of Dianetics here in Phoenix. There was a big extravaganza supposedly and I'd say there was 20 people there.
JAMES WHITE: Hmm.
JEFF JACOBSEN: And, and some of those, including myself, were just guests, you know.
JAMES WHITE: Yeah.
JEFF JACOBSEN: So, um, I would estimate in the U.S., just as a rough guess, maybe 100,000 in the U.S.
JAMES WHITE: Okay. Uh, we'll take one more phone call this afternoon as we go to Phoenix with Debbie. Hello, Debbie.
DEBBIE: Hi. Um--
JAMES WHITE: Yes--
DEBBIE: --can you hear me?
JAMES WHITE: Yes, you're on the air.
DEBBIE: I have a question about Science of the Mind. Is it any part of Scientology? Is it a break-off or--I know somebody that's in it and they get booklets and it's more of a, you know, everything through yourself type of philosophy and I was just wondering if it was associated with it at all.
JEFF JACOBSEN: I believe that's a different group. Um, it's--Dianetics is considered, it's called even in the book Dianetics, "the science of the mind". But if you're--if the name of the organization is Science of the Mind, then it's separate.
DEBBIE: Okay.
JAMES WHITE: Yeah, it would be a different group, though I, I think I've heard of it. It sounds like one of the broad umbr--what would fall in the broad umbrella of the Mind Science groups, uh, that are, you know, like theosophy and things like that.
DEBBIE: Okay, thanks.
JAMES WHITE: Thank you. Bye-bye. Well, it's a fascinating subject. I, I just, uh--I still remain somewhat abs--just amazed (laughs) concerning the fact that people would actually go in for something about Xemu and E-meters and, uh, things like this. Uh, I just--it, it sometimes makes it difficult, sort of like dealing with Christian Science. It's, it's difficult for me to, to talk to a person who doesn't think I exist. Uh, I just have a real, real hard time getting into a discussion like that but I guess--I guess there are all sorts of teachings out there and this is yet another. Next week, we'll get an opportunity to talk with, uh, Valerie Stansfield and get her personal experiences. She is an ex-Scientologist. Did she--was she in the Church for a long time? Uh, tell us a little bit of something about her if you know anything about her.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Uh, there are six major plaintiffs in the case; there are about 600 signed plaintiffs, uh, against the Church. And she was, uh, I believe, a member for at least 11 years. Uh, I think her husband was a member almost from the beginning of Scientology. And I don't know--the six plaintiffs are, what I've read, are, were high officials in the Church.
JAMES WHITE: Okay. So she should be able to give us some very interesting information. If someone wishes to get a hold of you, Jeff, how could they write to you.
JEFF JACOBSEN: Uh, I have a post office box; it's Box [omitted] in Scottsdale, Arizona, 85257.
JAMES WHITE: Okay, that would be Jeff Jacobsen, P.O. Box [omitted], Scottsdale, Arizona, 85257, is the address. And so if you'd like to get some of that documentation from Jeff, then I'm sure you'd probably be willing to provide that to someone concerning some of the quotes that you've given. And so that's Jeff Jacobsen, P.O. Box [omitted], Scottsdale, Arizona, 85257. Thanks for being with us. Are you--you're gonna be able to be with us next week when--
JEFF JACOBSEN: Sure--
JAMES WHITE: --Valerie is here and, uh, and we will continue this discussion next week on "The Dividing Line" at 3 o'clock as we take two weeks to look at the subject of Scientology. Then around the time of Christmas, we're gonna have a special holiday issue. We get into January, we're gonna be looking at some of the basic Christian doctrines such as the Trinity, why we believe in the Trinity, uh, why we believe the Bible teaches the doctrine of the Trinity, uh, some topics like that, the deity of Christ, the person of the Holy Spirit and, uh, hopefully maybe even trying to arrange some discussions with some folks, uh, who do not believe in the Trinity. I was listening to one of, uh, the other quote-unquote Christian stations as I was coming in today and there was a program on that, uh, was from an organization that denies, uh, the Trinity and denies, uh, the, um, the triune nature of God. And so we are going to be talking about some of those things coming up, uh, in the month of January. So we hope you'll stick with us.
[END]
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