April 19, 2002 Hearing before Judge W. Douglas Baird, 1:30 p.m. Pinellas County Courtroom, Clearwater, FL

Scientology attorney Rosen was up first, discussing their motions. One was to disqualify Ken Dandar and his firm Dandar and Dandar. The other was to compel production of certain documents. He then asked that any potential witnesses that were not parties to the case leave the courtroom. The witnesses were given as: Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks, Jesse Prince, Michael Garco (sp?) Dan Liepold (by telephone) Patricia Greenway, Peter Alexander, Thomas Galloway, Frank Oliver, Samuel Rosen, Dell Liebrech, Larry Wollersheim (by telephone) and Theresa Summers. Bob Minton, Stacy Brooks and Dell Liebrech did not have to leave the room as they are parties to the case.

Luke Lirot then argued a motion to stay this case. He filed a response in opposition to the production of documents, to the motion for disqualification, to a motion for punitive damages, and one other I did not hear. Lirot argued that it would be appropriate to stay this case much like the counterclaim case, as otherwise it could taint the wrongful death case. He referred to the 04/12/02 district appeal which maintains that releasing financial documents would irreparably harm the estate, and that this case was an attempt to circumvent that ruling.

Lirot also mentioned that there was a court ordered mediation hearing in the wrongful death case scheduled for the same day as this hearing. However, he cited a 04/17/02 letter from Kendrick Moxon which stated that "mediation was impossible" with Ken Dandar as counsel, due to the supposed facts of this case. Lirot stated that this was simply an effort to derail the wrongful death case. Lirot then stated that he will be filing notice with the court that he will be appearing as an attorney on behalf of the estate of Lisa McPherson.

Samuel Rosen then argued that "a member of the bar" suborned perjury and appropriated funds. He alleged Dandar obstructed justice, hid funds, and lied about it in court. Rosen stated that Dandar "doesn't want you to know how much money he has left." I personally at this time was struck by how he seemed to be ignoring the recent appeals court order about pursuing the funds relating to the Lisa McPherson estate. In Lirot's rebuttal, he reiterated that the Moxon letter proves that this case is simply an attempt to derail the wrongful death case. Rosen replied that the mediation did take place that morning, but reached an immediate impasse. He also argued that this case has nothing to do with the wrongful death case. Lirot argued that Scientology's attorneys are trying to circumvent the district court order with certain motions in this case. The judge then denied the motion to stay.

Samuel Rosen called Bob Minton to the stand. Rosen gave Minton a stack of folders which he explained were various pieces of evidence he would be referring to throughout the testimony. They discussed his prior testimony on April 9, 2002 and it was agreed that that testimony would be submitted into evidence. Lirot objected to the fact that none of the evidence that Rosen was using in court had been provided to him in advance. The judge disagreed and allowed the evidence in.

Rosen then asked Minton about the "Swiss bank checks" which were given to Ken Dandar. They were said to be dated May 1, 2000 and March 7, 2002, for $500,000.00 and $250,000.00 respectively. Rosen then asked Minton to open one of the evidence folders, which contained a copy of the $500,000.00 check. He asked Minton how that check came to be issued. Lirot objected that this testimony would be a violation of the 2nd district court order regarding disclosing the source and amount of the estate's finances. Rosen argued that the stay that was issued does not apply to this case, Lirot argued that it it does. The judge overruled Lirot's objection, and Lirot asked to go on record as respectfully objecting to the judges ruling.

Minton then testified as to the issuance of the $500,000.00 check. He stated that Dandar had asked for a large sum of money and wanted to hide it from Scientology. This conversation was said to have taken place in April 2000. Minton testified that prior checks were made out to Dandar & Dandar, and were on his personal accounts. The two checks being discussed had no person's name to indicate the issuer. Bob said he gave that check to Dandar in a meeting at a Clearwater restaurant. No other people were present except other diners.

Rosen then asked Minton to open another folder, which contained the other check. Both checks were said to have been drawn from the Union Bank of Switzerland. Rosen asked Minton about conversations that took place prior to the issuance of this check. Minton said that he was reluctant at the time to offer Dandar more money. He had a conversation with Ken Dandar in February 2002 telling Dandar that he didn't trust him, Dell Liebrech or the estate any longer. He also described a visit by Dandar to his house in New Hampshire, accompanied by a Dr. Michael Garco (sp?). Minton said that initially Dandar wanted him to come meet him in the Cayman Islands, where Dandar was on vacation with his family, but Minton did not want to or could not go to the Cayman Islands at that time, so Dandar came to see him at his home instead. They discussed the additional funds, but in what he described as an "oblique" manner, due to the presence of Dr. Garco. It was discussed in a way to seem that the funds were coming from other people, some of Minton's overseas friends.

The second check was then issued on March 7, 2002 and was sent to Minton, arriving on March 9. Minton stated that he had some reservations, and "sat on" the check for a few days rather than sending it. After a few days, Dandar called to say he had not yet received the check, which Minton said he had mailed that day. He also testified he enclosed in the envelope a printed copy of an essay by Caroline Letekeman and attached the check to page 23 of the essay. He seemed to be saying that this was done to conceal the check from any of Dandar's employees. I noticed Dandar just shaking his head at this time. Minton testified that Dandar called the next day when the check didn't arrive, as it was to have been sent overnight mail. Minton told him that he had sent it to Dandar's post office box, not his office. He then said Dandar called him the next day to say the check had arrived.

The subject of Michael Garco then came up. Garco is a trial consultant for Ken Dandar. Rosen began asking about a visit to Minton's house on 04/14/02 by Garco, and what was said. Lirot immediately objected that any testimony about what Garco said would be hearsay, and there was no foundation for the question. Rosen argued that Garco was a "coconspirator" with Dandar. The judge stated that this was not a conspiracy hearing and sustained Lirot's objection.

Rosen then asked Minton about conversations about the handling of proceeds from the Lisa McPherson wrongful death case. Minton said that early on he had suggested to Dandar that the estate should agree to donate the proceeds to an anti-cult group. At the time, he was suggesting Factnet. Lirot objected as to relevance and was overruled. Minton then said that a few days later Dandar got back to him and said that he had discussed it with Dell Liebrech and that they decided they would in fact donate the proceeds to one or a couple of anti-cult groups. Rosen then asked Minton if he subsequently went on the radio and posted on the internet about this agreement, and Minton said that he did. Minton then testified that in February or March 2000, Dandar came to him and said that they would have to "backtrack big time" on the statements about proceeds being donations, as it would look bad for the civil case, that it would lend the appearance of some improper business deal between Minton and the case.

Rosen asked Minton about a Lisa McPherson Trust (LMT) board meeting, and conversations that took place afterward between him, Dandar, Dell Liebrech and her two sisters. Minton said he thanked her for deciding to donate the proceeds. He indicated that it was 2 weeks later that Dandar talked to him about "backtracking." He said that Dandar said the agreement would still be in place, but that it had to be secret. He then supposedly provided Minton with an affidavit to sign that recanted the statements that the proceeds would be donated. Minton said that he signed that affidavit knowing that it was false. This affidavit, as well as similar ones signed by Dell Liebrech and Ken Dandar were then entered into evidence. In a subsequent deposition of Minton by Rosen, Minton testified that he lied when he said that the money was not a donation and that he had misspoken and misunderstood the situation. Minton said he recants that earlier testimony. Rosen then asked Minton whether the funds were intended to be used to pay the expenses of the estate in the wrongful death case. Minton testified that was the agreement since October of 1997, and that none of the funds were personal loans to Dandar.

An exhibit was then introduced, which was a note written by Bob Minton that he sent with the first check he sent Ken Dandar. In that note it stated that the $100,000.00 being sent was to be repaid only if funds were available. This check was made out to Dandar & Dandar and was deposited in the law firm's trust account.

There was a short break, and during that time Jesse Prince came into the courtroom and approached Lirot, who told him he couldn't talk to him. Rosen began yelling at Jesse telling him to leave the courtroom, and also started yelling for the judge. When the hearing resumed Rosen made a big scene about this incident, asking that the witnesses be sequestered, and complaining that the witnesses were talking to Ray Emmons and myself. The judge seemed annoyed and said he hopes such nonsense would not be necessary and the hearing proceeded.

Luke Lirot then questioned Bob Minton. He first asked him how, since the deposition where he was supposed to produce the 2 checks was cancelled, did Rosen get copies of them. Rosen objected, and the judge told Lirot to move on. They then went into Minton's history funding other cases. He testified that he has probably spent about the same amount of money on other cases collectively as he has on the Lisa McPherson case, which would be about 2 million dollars. Minton said that he is or has been involved in about 16 to 18 cases involving Scientology.

Lirot asked about Minton being placed in "personal peril" by Scientology, to which Rosen objected. Lirot argued that it went to the bias of the witness, and the objection was overruled. Minton then stated that he was at times in peril, and he described the 2 criminal charges he faced, pickets of his homes and hotel rooms, and the "mutual injunction." He also mentioned lawsuits he has filed in France and Germany.

Minton was then asked about the LMT. It was first incorporated as a for-profit corporation by Ken Dandar at Minton's direction. He indicated that if they so chose, they could always make it a non-profit but that for the time being it would be best as for-profit to avoid the disclosures required of non-profits. Lirot asked Minton about the May 2000 check, making the point that there were no court orders requiring the divulging of any source of the funds at the time this check was issued.

Lirot then referred to the 10/11/01 and 10/12/01 deposition of Bob Minton by Rosen. Minton testified that during that deposition he answered "no" to the question "did you have any discussion with Ken Dandar regarding adding any defendants" to the wrongful death case. He said now that that was a false answer. He also admitted to false testimony about not knowing about adding David Miscavige as a defendant.

Lirot asked Minton if he ever discussed being upset about not being able to control the case. He denied that. Lirot asked whether he knew who Peter Alexander and Patricia Greenway were, and Minton explained that they made a movie that he financed that is a parody of Scientology. He denied complaining to Alexander or Greenway about a lack of control of the wrongful death case.

Minton testified that in the deposition he indicated that he had given 1.3 million dollars to the case, when in fact he had given 1.8 million. The 1.3 million was money he had issued in the form of personal checks. He stated that he wrongly testified because Dandar told him to "concentrate on the checks he had written." Minton acknowledged that Dandar was not his attorney in this case, and that John Merritt and Mr. Howie have been his attorneys.

Lirot had Minton look at the affidavit that he signed that he said came from Ken Dandar, as well as ones signed by Dandar himself and Dell Liebrech. Lirot pointed out that the style, format and typeface of the affidavit signed by Minton was different from those signed by Dandar and Liebrech, and Lirot asked whether John Merrett actually perpared the affidavid. Minton denied that Merrett prepared it, repeating that it was sent to him by Dandar. He stated that Stacy Brooks was sent one as well.

At this point Lirot asked Minton to explain who Stacy Brooks was. I observed Minton look immediately at Wally Pope as if for guidance, then he said something to the effect of "what do you want to know about her?" He acknowledged a personal relationship with her. I thought it odd that Minton would look to Pope for guidance rather than his own attorney. They then went onto the subject of Stacy Brooks being the main person who was advocating adding David Miscavige as a defendant. Minton mentioned a affidavit written and signed by Jesse Prince that he called "speculative" that explained the rationale for adding Miscavige.

The questions then shifted to Dan Liepold. Minton testified that Liepold is the only attorney he has ever loaned money to. Lirot then asked Minton whether he asked Liepold to drop his case against Scientology, to which Rosen immediately objected. The quesiton was unanwered.

Lirot then spoke to the judge, saying he wanted to ask about recent meetings Minton has had with Scientology. He asked Minton "What happened? Why did you change your mind? To what do we owe this 180?" Minton simply replied, "Mr. Dandar." He then admitted to lots of meetings with Scientology, but that he cannot discuss the content of those meetings as he signed a confidentiality agreement. Lirot then asked whether Scientology has threatened him with criminal actions regarding his business dealings in Nigeria, to which Minton replied, " no." Lirot asked whether Scientology has threatened him with racketeering charges, to which he also replied, "no."

Lirot asked Minton whether he has ever been treated for depression, which Minton acknowledged. He said his last visit to a doctor for it was about 4 years ago, but that he still sometimes takes medication. He said he was not on medication on this date. Lirot asked Minton whether he knew of his medical or phsychiatric records being posted to the internet by Scientology, to which Minton said he was not aware. This particular statement bothered me because I and others I know have talked to Minton and others about this very thing having happened.

Lirot then asked Minton why he would want to abandon those involved in this case and in battling Scientology, to which he replied that he just wants to get out of the Scientology litigation business.

Lirot asked Minton about a letter sent by his Boston attorney named Jones to Ken Dandar, dated April 1, 2002. Minton did not answer any question about that letter as he said he has not been to his house to collect his mail and he has not seen that letter.

He was then asked how many meetings he has had with Scientology from the end of February 2002 to date. Minton replied that he met with them about 10 or 12 times, and he repeated that a confidentiality agreement is in place regarding the content of those meetings.

Minton said that on March 30, 2002, he told Dandar that they would both be "destroyed" if the two checks were not disclosed. He also discussed the matter with Jesse Prince, expressing his concern that the instances of perjury could result in jail time. He then went on to say that Jesse Prince threatened him and the top people in Scientology just the prior Sunday night. He said that Prince came to his hotel, and that he was angry and drunk. Minton said that Prince told him he had become a Scientologist, and that he "wasn't going to let him do this." Minton told Prince that he never wanted to see him again, and he won't talk to him again without his attorney present. He also said that in his opinion Jesse Prince is mentally unstable. He also went on a tangent about a story Jesse Prince had told him previously, about holding Miscavige and other top people in Scientology at gunpoint.

Minton confirmed that he told Ken Dandar that if he didn't drop the wrongful death case he would have "the blood and death" of his family on his hands. He also acknowledged calling Dandar on Good Friday, telling him "for both of our sakes this case must be dropped."

Minton testified about the meeting with Dandar and Garco, and he acknowledged that he said at the time that the 2 checks were from "friends." This supposedly was so that Garco would not know the true source of the funds. He then said that he believes Dandar is a liar and an unethical lawyer. The issue of these 2 checks are the basis of his turnaround. Minton got very emotional at this point, his voice cracking, as he said that "Dandar is a lying thief" and that he is only in this for the money.

There was a break, and then Ken Dandar was on the witness stand, being questioned by Rosen. They began with the issue of the very first check sent by Minton, for $100,000.00. When the possibility that someone wanted to give money to help the case came up, Dandar was not sure whether he could accept it or how to handle it, so he contacted the Florida Bar Association for advice. They told him that as long as the party giving the funds had no control over the litigation, and if it was ok with the client, then it was permissible to accept the funds.

Dandar said that he was skeptical as to the validity of the offer at first, and when he deposited the first check he expected it to bounce. When it did not bounce, he was somewhat surprised, and he said that Minton told him later that he had told him that he was "for real." They proceeded to go over every check issued to Dandar by Minton, and also over letters sent to Minton by Dandar regarding these checks. In the letters, Dandar primarily calls the money a donation, though he stated that it really should have been phrased "loan/donation" as that would more accurately describe the status of those funds. It was considered a loan to be paid back at his discretion out of any proceeds, or a donation if there were no proceeds. Dandar stated that he considered the monies to be a personal loan to him, to be used at his discretion.

Rosen became much more animated during his cross examination of Dandar, reminding me of a bad caricature of Perry Mason. He kept going over and over the issue of each of these checks and the way Dandar handled the funds. He repeatedly asked whether Dandar could use the funds to go buy "a house in North Carolina" or a Porsche if he so chose, which Dandar said that if he wanted to he could have, but that he didn't do that.

Rosen kept the questions mostly in this area for the remainder of the afternoon. I had to leave at 6:30 p.m. so I missed the last couple of hours of Dandar's testimony. According to the newspapers, they concluded Dandar's testimony and are scheduling a hearing for a future date not yet set.

Michael Krotz St. Petersburg, FL

(C) Copyright 2002 Mr. Scary Productions

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