:

vs. :

:

JESSE PRINCE :

SPN 02157727 :

:

------------------------x DEPONENT: MR. JIM PATTERSON DATE: May 15, 2001 TIME: 9:35 a.m. - 10:41 a.m.

LOCATION: Criminal Justice Center 14250 49th Street North Room 1100 Clearwater, FL 33762 REPORTER: Crissy Cladakis Stenographic Reporter Notary Public State of Florida at Large ---------------------------------------------------- D & D REPORTING SERVICE 915 Chestnut Street Clearwater, FL 33756 (727) 468-2002 2 APPEARANCES:

For the State: LYDIA WARDELL, ESQUIRE Assistant State Attorney 14250 49th Street North Clearwater, FL 33760 For Jesse Prince: DENIS M. de VLAMING, ESQUIRE Denis M. de Vlaming, P.A.

1101 Turner Street Clearwater, FL 33756 * * * * I N D E X Direct Examination by Mrs. Wardell .............. 3 Cross-Examination by Mr. de Vlaming ............. 35 Redirect Examination by Mrs. Wardell ............ 37 3 1 JIM PATTERSON, 2 WAS CALLED AND AFTER BEING DULY SWORN WAS EXAMINED AND 3 TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:

4 5 DIRECT EXAMINATION 6 BY MRS. WARDELL:

7 Q. Good morning. My name is Lydia Wardell with 8 the State Attorney's office and I'm prosecuting the 9 case of Jesse Prince CTC 01-00101-MMANO. Your name 10 was provided to me by the defense attorney as an 11 individual who may testify on behalf of the defendant.

12 Could you please tell me what it is you 13 expect to testify to if called by the defense?

14 MR. de VLAMING: I'm going to object to the 15 form of the question. However, in the interest of 16 brevity, I will -- what she's basically wanting to 17 know is your involvement; although, the question was 18 rather broad. Go ahead.

19 A. I, basically, went to Lake Wales, Florida, on 20 the 19th of October, year 2000, met with -- 21 accompanying me was another investigator, Ray Emmons.

22 And at that point, we met up with -- I can't think of 23 his name -- Gaston, a fellow by the name of Gaston, 24 and sat down and had lunch and learned a little bit of 25 information that he had to give us and basically left 4 1 that day.

2 BY MRS. WARDELL:

3 Q. Okay. Let me get some background here. How 4 did it -- how did you set up this lunch with Mr.

5 Gaston?

6 A. I did not. Ray Emmons made the appointment 7 with Mr. Gaston.

8 Q. And how was that done, do you know?

9 A. I understand it was done by telephone with a 10 pretext.

11 Q. A pretext?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. A fraudulent scenario to get him there?

14 MR. de VLAMING: Object to the form of the 15 question.

16 A. I wouldn't say it's fraudulent at all. If 17 look at it, we're allowed to us pretexts under 493.

18 And we -- or not we, but Ray Emmons apparently set up 19 a pretext with him to be -- they had me pose as a 20 restaurant owner.

21 Q. You're not a restaurant owner, are you?

22 A. No, ma'am.

23 Q. So that was fraud, right, because you're not 24 a restaurant owner?

25 MR. de VLAMING: Object to the form of the 5 1 questions.

2 A. No, it's not fraud.

3 BY MRS. WARDELL:

4 Q. It's not fraudulent to say you're a 5 restaurant owner?

6 A. I don't believe it is, no.

7 Q. Okay. So you're supposed to be a restaurant 8 owner. What was Emmons supposed to have been?

9 A. I have no idea.

10 Q. And what was the scenario as far as why you 11 would need -- get to meet with Gaston?

12 A. To see if Jesse Prince recognized him as 13 being the individual that spent time with him in his 14 house and socializing with him.

15 Q. My question, I meant for it to say: What did 16 Gaston think the scenario was that he was there? What 17 was he told as to why he was to come have this lunch?

18 A. Again, I'd have to -- it was my 19 understanding -- I don't know what he was told, but it 20 was my understanding that he was told or asked if he 21 wouldn't mind meeting at this restaurant with a 22 prospective client, which would have been myself, for 23 a shopper's service of his services for shopping a 24 restaurant for cleanliness, you know, by the way to 25 staff, this type of thing.

6 1 Q. So where did you get the name Gaston?

2 A. I didn't get the name. Ray Emmons got the 3 name and, again, through his investigation I would 4 assume.

5 Q. What was your knowledge as to why you needed 6 Mr. Prince to see if he could recognize Barry Gaston 7 as an individual who had spent some time with Mr.

8 Prince?

9 A. That would indicate to us that this was the 10 fellow that used an alias name that had socialized 11 with Mr. Prince and that name would be have been * 12 Trinidad. And we suspected him as being a source for 13 a search warrant that was issued to Mr. Prince's 14 residence.

15 Q. And how did all of this come to your 16 attention?

17 A. The whole thing?

18 Q. Yeah. Were you retained?

19 A. Yeah. Mr. de Vlaming retained me.

20 Q. And what were your directions?

21 A. To assist in the investigation with Ray 22 Emmons.

23 Q. Bottom line, to discover whether or not 24 Gaston was the potential source in the -- 25 A. Correct, right.

7 1 Q. So tell me about the lunch.

2 A. I walked in the restaurant with Ray Emmons.

3 Q. How did you introduce yourself to Mr. Gaston?

4 A. "My name is Jim." My actual name, Jim 5 Patterson, I believe.

6 Q. Did you say we have such and such restaurant?

7 A. No, no. There was no mention of any name of 8 a restaurant. In fact, I don't even think I mentioned 9 a restaurant period. He knew why he was there, to 10 meet with me as a restaurant owner. But I never had 11 to tell him I was a restaurant owner.

12 Q. He knew that from conversations he would have 13 had with Emmons?

14 A. Yes.

15 Q. Do you recall what time you got there?

16 A. No. It must have been just around noontime 17 or shortly thereafter.

18 Q. And do you recall who got there first? In 19 other words, your party or him?

20 A. We were there first.

21 Q. Were you already seated?

22 A. Yes. We were already seated.

23 Q. How did Mr. Gaston know where to come?

24 A. When he came in, I think, Ray Emmons and I 25 figured it was him and, I think, Ray made the motion 8 1 for him to come over to our table.

2 Q. Had you previously seen a picture of him or 3 something so you would know who he was?

4 A. No.

5 Q. How did you know to motion to him?

6 A. I think we may have run his vehicles or 7 something. I'm not sure. You'd have to ask Ray that.

8 I'm not positive on that.

9 Q. Where did you get the name Barry Gaston in 10 the first place?

11 A. Ray Emmons got that name through his 12 investigation.

13 Q. Are you aware, as a matter of your 14 investigation and your involvement here, how Mr.

15 Emmons got his name?

16 A. I believe it was various sources, such as 17 referrals as to a black private investigator who may 18 have had been a former police officer who was licensed 19 in the State of Florida. He made some inquiries. He 20 came up with Gaston's name.

21 Q. You don't know where you learned that it was 22 a black PI, possibly a former police officer, where 23 that came from?

24 A. No.

25 Q. So Mr. Gaston's motioned to the table. Had 9 1 y'all ordered lunch at this point?

2 A. No.

3 Q. All right.

4 A. He came to the table. He sat down. He gave 5 me his card. He said that -- he and I engaged in some 6 conversation, just introductory-type thing. And then 7 Ray Emmons went outside to the vehicle to get Jesse 8 out.

9 Q. Mr. Prince was not already at the table?

10 A. No. Jesse was out in the vehicle.

11 Q. And what happens?

12 A. Ray Emmons went outside, got Jesse Prince to 13 come in with him. I remained talking to Gaston.

14 Q. Was Mr. Gaston's back to the door?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. Were you facing the door?

17 A. Yes.

18 Q. Is that like an old PI trick, always keep 19 your eye on the door?

20 A. Previous law enforcement. I've always done 21 that many years.

22 Q. So was it intentionally done to where you had 23 the eye on the door and he had to get the seat that 24 had his back to the door? Was that part of the plan?

25 A. No, it wasn't. But it was nice it turned out 10 1 that way.

2 Q. You didn't intend it to turn out that way?

3 A. No.

4 Q. But you got there first, right?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. You could pick any seat you wanted, right?

7 A. Sure.

8 Q. Okay. So he's got his back to the door.

9 What happens next?

10 A. Ray Emmons and Prince come walking in. Ray 11 Emmons sat to the right of me and Prince walked up to 12 the table. And immediately Gaston and Prince looked 13 at each other and said, how are you doing. They 14 smiled, shook hands, very cordial to one another.

15 Q. Did they act like they knew each other?

16 A. Oh, yeah, yeah.

17 Q. Did Mr. Gaston look like the cat that 18 swallowed the canary?

19 A. No. He started laughing. He said, "I knew 20 there was something up." And he just shook his head 21 laughing.

22 Q. Any other statements you remember him making?

23 A. Sure. I remember a lot of them.

24 Q. Well, at this point -- 25 A. Do you want me to go into it?

11 1 Q. At this point when Gaston first is confronted 2 with Mr. Prince.

3 A. I think he said, "I knew there was something 4 going on here." He started laughing. And they shook 5 hands and, "How are you doing? Are you all right?"

6 You know, just exchanges like that, the two of them.

7 Q. Was it -- 8 A. It was a very private type of situation. Ray 9 Emmons and I kind of just sat there and these two were 10 cordial to one another and were reminiscing just a 11 little bit about, "How's your wife? How's your son?"

12 Q. Was it obvious to you that the gig was up, so 13 to speak?

14 A. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, there's no doubt 15 that the two knew each other.

16 Q. Was there any doubt that the two realized why 17 they were there, i.e., Mr. Gaston, oh, you think I'm 18 the one that called the police, and Mr. Prince, oh, I 19 know you're the one that called the police?

20 A. Sure.

21 Q. That was the tenure of the reaction?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. So then what?

24 A. They proceeded to talk a little bit. I think 25 Gaston said, "Man, I'm really sorry." Immediately he 12 1 started to apologize to Prince and he said, "You know, 2 I'm really sorry for this situation, man." He says, 3 "There's a lot of time and money spent on this thing.

4 I'm sorry it went down like this." And then he even 5 said, "I know you're not dealing" -- "I know you 6 weren't dealing, man. It's just a bunch of bullshit."

7 He talked like that.

8 Q. Had you met Mr. Prince prior to today's -- 9 prior to that day, the day at the restaurant?

10 A. Yes, ma'am.

11 Q. And on how many occasions?

12 A. Maybe two.

13 Q. And what was the first of those meetings?

14 A. Some other work that I had worked on for The 15 McPherson Foundation.

16 Q. Did Mr. Prince seek you out or how did that 17 happen?

18 A. I think Denis de Vlaming here referred me.

19 Q. And were those jobs that you had on behalf of 20 Mr. Prince?

21 A. No, not -- he was present. I met him at the 22 foundation, but that was it.

23 Q. So how would you describe your relationship 24 with Mr. Prince?

25 A. That it's, basically, part of a company or 13 1 corporation type of relationship. I've only seen the 2 man once or, I think, twice prior to the restaurant.

3 Q. Have you ever socialized with him?

4 A. No.

5 Q. In the two prior meetings that you had with 6 Mr. Prince, how long do you think they would have 7 lasted?

8 A. Less than an hour-and-a-half, less than 90 9 minutes, probably.

10 Q. Did he participate in giving you directives 11 with regards to whatever that assignment was?

12 A. No.

13 Q. Did he just listen to what was going on?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. He didn't offer any input?

16 A. He had input, but nothing as far as 17 directions as to what to take upon his wishes.

18 Q. Was this before or after the restaurant 19 meeting?

20 A. Both.

21 Q. One before and one after?

22 A. Right.

23 Q. And was he involved in paying you in any way?

24 A. No, not to my knowledge.

25 Q. What about for this case, is he the one 14 1 paying you?

2 A. No. Denis de Vlaming is the one who's 3 responsible.

4 Q. And you billed Mr. de Vlaming?

5 A. Yes.

6 Q. How much have you billed him so far?

7 A. I have no idea. I'd have to look at the 8 records.

9 Q. Have you been paid or is it outstanding?

10 A. No, I think we've been paid. You know, I 11 bill at $50 an hour and it couldn't have been more 12 than three or four hours.

13 Q. But do you think you could check those 14 records and you can -- 15 A. Right.

16 Q. -- tell Mr. de Vlaming the answer and he can 17 tell me or you can call me?

18 A. Sure.

19 Q. I'll give you my number.

20 A. Okay.

21 Q. The question you're going to check was how 22 much you've been paid for your services in this case.

23 A. Okay.

24 Q. Okay. And have you done -- you mentioned the 25 two meetings with Mr. Prince. Have you done other 15 1 work for the Lisa McPherson Trust not counting Mr.

2 Prince's involvement?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. And are you, like, their regular retained 5 investigator?

6 A. No. I would not say that.

7 Q. Case-by-case basis?

8 A. Right.

9 Q. Do you have any idea how many cases you've -- 10 A. Just one other.

11 Q. Okay. So that gives you a total of three 12 cases that -- 13 A. Two.

14 Q. Two where you met Mr. Prince?

15 A. I met Mr. Prince, I think, on three 16 occasions, but I had two assignments.

17 Q. Okay. But the question was: Did you have 18 any assignments related to the Lisa McPherson Trust or 19 people that didn't involve Mr. Prince?

20 A. No.

21 Q. In other words, all your work with them -- 22 A. I think, yeah, it all borders around Mr.

23 Prince. Right.

24 Q. Are you on like a stand-by retainer for them?

25 A. No.

16 1 Q. All right. Let's get back to the lunch. Mr.

2 Gaston had just stated, "I know you weren't dealing."

3 What did you take that to mean?

4 A. That Mr. Prince wasn't dealing in marijuana.

5 Q. I.e., selling it? When you say "dealing,"

6 what do you mean?

7 A. Selling it. Dealing with it.

8 Q. Selling it. Okay. Are you aware of the 9 allegations against Mr. Prince?

10 A. Some of them, right.

11 Q. Had you read police reports prior to this 12 lunch?

13 A. No, I don't think I've read anything. No.

14 It was just verbally told to me by Denis de Vlaming.

15 Q. So Mr. de Vlaming gives you a set of facts, 16 that his client, Mr. Prince, is faced with and that 17 sort of thing?

18 A. Right. We had a meeting. I think there was 19 a meeting prior to our meeting.

20 Q. Were you told that Mr. Prince believed that 21 he was set up?

22 MR. de VLAMING: I'm going to object. I 23 think you -- we're now getting in on an area that's 24 privileged. I think you need to be more specific 25 whether or not he was told by me or if he was told by 17 1 Mr. Prince. They would both be privileged information 2 as an agent of my office.

3 MRS. WARDELL: Well, I didn't run the same 4 motions that you ran because I figured the outcome of 5 your motions kind of counted for mine.

6 MR. de VLAMING: I tell me you what. Go 7 ahead, Lydia, ask your questions. That last 8 question's not harmful to me, so go ahead if you want 9 to ask that again.

10 BY MRS. WARDELL:

11 Q. Were you told that Mr. Prince believed that 12 he was set up?

13 A. By Mr. Prince.

14 Q. Mr. Prince told you he was set up?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. And can you tell me what else he told you 17 about these facts?

18 MR. de VLAMING: Now, I'm going to object.

19 A. Other than he didn't -- 20 MR. de VLAMING: No. I think that's 21 privileged information. What a defendant tells an 22 investigator is privileged information.

23 MRS. WARDELL: I disagree. I think if he had 24 told it to you -- he's not an attorney here. I mean, 25 that's not attorney-client. If that's the only one 18 1 you can come up with, then I think that privilege is 2 out the window. These are defendant's admissions from 3 your client.

4 MR. de VLAMING: Yeah, but not to somebody 5 that's subject to the privilege. If Mr. Patterson is 6 an agent of mine, he is subject to the attorney-client 7 privilege as is my secretary. And you're asking Mr.

8 Patterson what the defendant said to him in that 9 relationship.

10 MRS. WARDELL: Right. I disagree. So do you 11 want him to settle it now upstairs or do you want to 12 certify it and come back?

13 MR. de VLAMING: Yeah, let's go ahead and -- 14 MRS. WARDELL: Okay. I want to make it clear 15 that I'm certifying the question that I think I'm 16 entitled to ask this witness any statements that Mr.

17 Prince made to him with regards to this case, 18 including statements that were made at the lunch by 19 Mr. Prince. I don't think it's fair to pick and 20 choose what statements of Mr. Prince that I get to 21 know about. I mean, the defense has listed this 22 individual as a witness, and I think he's opened the 23 door to any statements that Mr. Prince made to this 24 witness with regards to the case.

25 MR. de VLAMING: Okay. I have no objection 19 1 to any questions asked of this witness as to what Mr.

2 Prince said at the lunch meeting, so please feel free 3 to ask any questions. It's questions and discussions 4 made between Mr. Prince and Mr. Patterson that I 5 object to that were outside the presence of the 6 investigation itself and made in my office.

7 BY MRS. WARDELL:

8 Q. Well, were the only statements that you got 9 from Mr. Prince, other than the lunch, made at Mr. de 10 Vlaming's office?

11 A. What was that question again?

12 Q. In other words, have you had conversations 13 with Mr. Prince that didn't necessary occur in Mr. de 14 Vlaming's presence?

15 A. Sure.

16 MRS. WARDELL: Okay. So I want the record to 17 be clear, I'm not just trying to get conversations 18 that were made in your office but any statements the 19 defendant made.

20 A. We traveled in the car together to Lake 21 Wales, so we had conversation.

22 BY MRS. WARDELL:

23 Q. Okay. And while traveling to the lunch, what 24 did Mr. Prince tell you as it relates to this case?

25 A. Nothing.

20 1 Q. It didn't come up?

2 A. Nothing.

3 Q. Okay. Let's go ahead and go to the lunch, 4 but I'm not waiving my prior questions and objections.

5 So now we're at the part about dealing. Had 6 Mr. Prince ever denied to you that he had any 7 involvement with marijuana?

8 MR. de VLAMING: I'm going -- just a minute.

9 Are we talking about during the conversation at the 10 lunch?

11 MRS. WARDELL: Well, I'd like to know at any 12 point.

13 MR. de VLAMING: Well, again, I don't have 14 any objections as to what was said during the course 15 of the lunch because, frankly, I don't think that's 16 privilege. However, if it was done in a privileged 17 setting outside of the lunch situation, then I think 18 it is attorney-client privilege.

19 MRS. WARDELL: All right. Well, we better 20 certify that one.

21 BY MRS. WARDELL:

22 Q. At the lunch after Mr. Gaston says, "I know 23 you weren't dealing," does Jesse Prince say anything 24 such as, yeah, man, I wasn't, I've been set up? What 25 was his response?

21 1 A. Very similar, I think, to what you just said, 2 as a matter of fact.

3 Q. Tell me what he said.

4 A. He indicated that he felt that he was set up.

5 Q. He said that to Mr. Gaston?

6 A. Right. I'm almost positive he did.

7 Q. Did he say, you set me up?

8 A. No.

9 Q. Not "you," but you, Mr. Gaston, set me up?

10 A. No, he did not.

11 Q. He didn't accuse Mr. Gaston at my point 12 during the lunch as being the individual that set him 13 up?

14 A. Not at all.

15 Q. He certainly had the opportunity, right?

16 A. Sure.

17 Q. So can you remember his words in response to 18 Mr. Gaston saying, "I know you weren't dealing"?

19 A. Not exactly, no. It was just -- it was a 20 sympathy type of a situation between the two of them.

21 It was very emotional at times where almost tears were 22 shed between the two.

23 Q. How long do you think this lunch lasted 24 before it broke up?

25 A. Better part of an hour.

22 1 Q. Can you tell me what else happened at the 2 table?

3 A. Mr. Gaston was very upset and worried that we 4 had been followed from the city of Clearwater to Lake 5 Wales.

6 Q. Whether you all were followed or that he was 7 followed?

8 A. That we had been followed.

9 Q. What was his concern there?

10 A. He was worried about the Scientology.

11 Q. He used the word "Scientology"?

12 A. He used the words "they," "them," and then 13 later he confirmed it was Scientology.

14 Q. All right. Tell me about that.

15 A. He was in fear that the Scientology would 16 hamper his family, himself. He gave examples of them 17 calling him during all times of the day and night 18 wanting to know if he could find out the status at the 19 State Attorney's office regarding the progress of the 20 case.

21 Q. Tell me about how Scientology was interjected 22 to mean, quote, "they"?

23 A. I asked him point blank at one point.

24 Q. Tell me about that.

25 A. He did not want to indicate who hired him, 23 1 and I think he was falling back on Statute 493.

2 Q. You asked him point blank at the lunch, "Who 3 hired you?"

4 A. No. I think Ray Emmons asked him point blank 5 and then he was uncomfortable in answering that at 6 that point.

7 Q. Specifically, he was asked, "Who hired you to 8 befriend Mr. Prince?"

9 A. Right.

10 Q. And what was the answer?

11 A. I think he, at that point, said that he 12 couldn't answer that directly. But then later in the 13 conversation, it came out. I point blank said, 14 Scientologists, and he agreed and said it was the 15 Scientologists that had been calling him at all hours 16 of the day and night.

17 Q. So you interjected the word "Scientologists"

18 in the conversation?

19 A. Yes, ma'am.

20 Q. And did he just nod or acquiesce to 21 Scientologists or did he say, "Yes, it's the 22 Scientologists that hired me"?

23 A. I don't think he said the word "Scientology,"

24 but he nodded and he indicated to Jesse that you're 25 being followed everywhere you go.

24 1 Q. Did he indicate by whom?

2 A. The Scientologists. He said "they," they are 3 following you and it was right after I had mentioned 4 Scientologists. He said, "They are following you 5 everywhere that you go." I think he went on further.

6 He said, "They know every step you're making," this 7 type of thing.

8 Q. Can you give me some more details about that?

9 I'm sort of at a disadvantage here. Usually the 10 defense attorney has a police report and they know the 11 witness's involvement and they know how to steer the 12 questions. So I've just got to rely on you to steer 13 me and make sure you're telling me everything I need 14 to know about that lunch.

15 A. Again, he was fearful. We asked him if he 16 knew who required him to befriend -- or how -- no, we 17 asked him at point, I think I did, as to how he knew 18 to meet Jesse in the pool hall bar where he was, where 19 they originally met. And Mr. Gaston said that they 20 told him to go there and hang out, meaning the 21 Scientologists, that the surveillance had been done on 22 him everywhere. They know everywhere he is.

23 Q. His answer was they told him and you took 24 that to mean Scientologists?

25 A. Right.

25 1 Q. In other words, somebody already knew where 2 Mr. Prince hung out and gave Mr. Gaston a specific 3 location to go to?

4 A. Exactly.

5 Q. Did Mr. Gaston ever ask you all how you found 6 him?

7 A. No. I thought that was curious, but he never 8 did.

9 Q. Did you guys order lunch?

10 A. We did. Mr. Gaston didn't.

11 Q. Was he present when you ordered?

12 A. Yes.

13 Q. Any reason he didn't order?

14 A. I have no idea. He was offered it many 15 times, but didn't. He just had something to drink, I 16 think.

17 Q. Any other substance to the conversation that 18 you know about?

19 A. Again, he was fearful of the Scientology, 20 meaning "they," and it was right after I had said 21 "Scientology." He said, "I'm fearing of them." We 22 asked him if he knew -- I can't think of the fellow's 23 name right now. I would have to look at my notes.

24 But it's the private investigator. My mind's hitting 25 a blank here.

26 1 Q. You mean -- 2 A. Another private investigator in Clearwater.

3 Q. On Mr. Gaston's side?

4 A. Yes.

5 Q. And, I'm sorry, how did that come up? You 6 asked him if he knew him or he asked you if you knew 7 him?

8 A. We asked him, Mr. Gaston, if he knew him and 9 he nodded yes. That would mean affirmative.

10 Q. Would that name be Raftery?

11 A. Yeah, Raftery, right.

12 Q. So y'all interjected that name?

13 A. Right.

14 Q. How did you know that name?

15 A. Through research I felt that -- or through 16 information that I retrieved from the McPherson 17 Foundation that they felt that this person, Raftery, 18 may be working for the Scientology.

19 Q. What was his supposed connection to all this?

20 A. We didn't know. But based on the point blank 21 question to Mr. Gaston, "if Raftery hired you," and he 22 wouldn't answer it. Again, I think he was reverting 23 back to 493, where you can't reveal your client.

24 Q. So you asked him, "Did Raftery hire you?"

25 A. Right. And then at that point, he just kind 27 1 of retracted so we felt that that was a positive, that 2 it was Raftery.

3 Q. Have you ever been a Scientologist?

4 A. No.

5 Q. Did you grow up in Clearwater?

6 A. No.

7 Q. How long have you been in this area?

8 A. Since '83.

9 Q. Where is your office?

10 A. Clearwater.

11 Q. Okay. Prior to taking this assignment, did 12 you have to go learn some stuff about Scientology?

13 A. No.

14 Q. Have you ever? Have you sat down and -- 15 A. No, I never had the desire to. No.

16 Q. Okay. So when you talk to Mr. Emmons, does 17 he ever tell you some of the things he's learned about 18 Scientology through his years and years of 19 investigation?

20 A. Not really, just general consensus of what a 21 lot of people, laymen people, even said about them and 22 their opinions.

23 Q. And have you -- what is your opinion about 24 Scientology?

25 MR. de VLAMING: Object to the form of the 28 1 question. He can answer it, though.

2 A. They're just a group of people that I don't 3 believe should be a church, from what I've seen. Now, 4 maybe they should have that right, the government's 5 decided that. But from what I've seen in the last -- 6 since 1983 living in Clearwater, that it's more of 7 a -- some type of organization, a cult or whatever 8 that exist.

9 BY MRS. WARDELL:

10 Q. And what do you base this opinion on?

11 A. Well, the churches I know are -- usually look 12 like churches. And this is buildings everywhere all 13 throughout the city with people running between the 14 streets and alleys and everywhere else.

15 Q. Little guys in the blue outfits that you're 16 talking about?

17 A. Yeah, it just -- yeah, it just doesn't appear 18 to be a church like I'm used to seeing a church.

19 Q. Do you know anything about their beliefs?

20 A. No.

21 Q. And I didn't mean to cut you, but as far as 22 things that Mr. Emmons has told you about them, has he 23 told you some specific things about, you know, one 24 time I saw this or -- 25 A. No.

29 1 Q. -- you wouldn't believe what they were doing 2 over here?

3 A. No, he really hasn't. He hasn't said 4 anything about that. And I think his opinions are 5 "screwed up people." I think he maybe said that 6 before, "some of them are screwed up people." And I 7 have to tend to agree with him.

8 Q. Do you know any of them other than Mr. Prince 9 who defected, or whatever you call it? I don't mean 10 to demean him or what he did. I don't know what the 11 word is.

12 A. No, I personally don't know any.

13 Q. Okay.

14 A. They just appear to me to be odd people.

15 Q. Because they wear the blue pants and blue 16 shirt?

17 A. Because they wear the blue pants, blue 18 shirts, ties and they're ants all over the place.

19 It's just strange. That's all.

20 Q. All right. Let's go back to the lunch. Is 21 there any other substantive conversations I need to 22 know about?

23 A. I don't think so. That's about it.

24 Q. At any point during the lunch, did Mr. Prince 25 indicate to Gaston or to anybody that was there, 30 1 "Look, y'all know that wasn't my marijuana. That 2 wasn't my marijuana. You know, I was treated wrong."

3 Did he ever deny that the marijuana was his?

4 A. I don't recall on that. Meaning the plant 5 that was confiscated?

6 Q. I'm not limiting it just to the single plant 7 that was taken, but plants in general. Did he ever 8 say, "Mr. Gaston, you know, you know I wasn't growing 9 that weed. You know that shit wasn't mine. This 10 isn't fair"?

11 A. I don't -- I don't think that actually came 12 out. I don't recall that.

13 Q. And did it ever come to your attention that 14 Mr. Prince had allegedly been smoking marijuana with 15 Mr. Gaston?

16 A. Oh, yeah.

17 Q. Was there any conversation at the lunch table 18 about the smoking of marijuana?

19 A. No.

20 Q. And where did it come to your attention that 21 smoking of marijuana was involved?

22 A. Probably in one of the meetings I had with 23 Mr. Prince.

24 Q. So the only denial that you can recall 25 occurring at the lunch was, "I wasn't selling the 31 1 stuff" or whatever -- the word "dealing," "I wasn't 2 dealing the stuff"?

3 A. Well, actually, there were two statements 4 made. Mr. Gaston said to Jesse, "I know you weren't 5 dealing the stuff, man." And Gaston -- or Prince, I 6 believe, said something like, "That's right. I 7 wasn't" or something.

8 Q. So the denial went to the dealing of the 9 marijuana?

10 A. I think so.

11 Q. Okay. All right.

12 A. Also Gaston said to Prince, "I wanted to call 13 you so bad and let you know what was going to happen."

14 Q. What was going to happen -- 15 A. Right.

16 Q. -- in other words, the ultimate arrest of Mr.

17 Prince?

18 A. Exactly.

19 Q. Okay.

20 A. He said he wanted to call him and let him 21 know ahead of time.

22 Q. Any other statements you can recall?

23 A. No. We -- no, not at all. I mean, other 24 than the fact that he was free to go at any time. I 25 remember that. We all kind of just -- we said, "We're 32 1 having lunch. Want to join us?"

2 Q. Did you actually get your lunch?

3 A. Oh, yeah.

4 Q. Did you eat?

5 A. Right.

6 Q. Do you recall how he actually ended up 7 leaving?

8 A. When we all got up. We paid the bill and got 9 up and walked out.

10 Q. You all left together?

11 A. Right. And, you know, I should -- would like 12 to point out, too, that Jesse and Gaston actually 13 hugged and there was almost tears shed between the two 14 of them.

15 Q. Was that at the end?

16 A. Yeah, it was at the end.

17 Q. Was that in the restaurant or in the parking 18 lot, do you recall?

19 A. Yes, in the restaurant.

20 Q. Do you recall how you walked out? In other 21 words, did Gaston go first or -- 22 A. I don't recall that.

23 Q. And what about in the parking lot?

24 A. No. I think we may have just hand-waved 25 good-bye and he went to his car and we went to our 33 1 vehicle.

2 Q. The three of y'all rode in one car?

3 A. Yes.

4 Q. Have you done any follow-up on Mr. Gaston 5 since the lunch?

6 A. No.

7 Q. Have you had any other involvement in the 8 case since the lunch?

9 A. No.

10 Q. Is it your understanding that the only topic 11 that you're going to talk -- testify to, if called, is 12 things that happened at the lunch and whatever led up 13 to you being at the lunch? Anything more than what 14 we've covered?

15 A. Right.

16 Q. Is there any areas of knowledge that you have 17 about this that I haven't asked it the right way such 18 that, that you think I need to know?

19 A. I don't believe so.

20 Q. And when the lunch was over, did you report 21 back to Mr. de Vlaming?

22 A. Yes.

23 Q. Did you report that same day?

24 A. Yes.

25 Q. Did you report in person or over the phone?

34 1 A. In person.

2 Q. And did you type up any notes to document 3 these conversations that occurred at lunch?

4 A. I did not, no.

5 Q. Did Mr. Emmons?

6 A. Yes.

7 Q. And would it be a type-written report or 8 what?

9 A. It was typewritten, I saw.

10 Q. And was it provided to Mr. de Vlaming?

11 A. Yes.

12 Q. Did you read over it for its accuracy before 13 it was given to him?

14 A. Right.

15 Q. And does it contain actual statements in it?

16 A. It makes reference to a few statements, 17 right.

18 Q. Do you have a copy?

19 A. No. I don't have one here.

20 Q. Do you have a problem if I get that?

21 A. Pardon me?

22 Q. Do you, personally, as a private 23 investigator, have a problem if I get that?

24 A. Well, I think -- yeah, because I'd have to 25 check with my client first to see if I can release 35 1 that. In fact, it wasn't -- 2 MR. de VLAMING: Let me check to see if it 3 has any verbatim statements. If it does, you'll be 4 entitled to it. If it's work product, you won't. But 5 I will -- 6 MRS. WARDELL: Well, I would suggest I'm 7 entitled to it regardless, but we can hash that out 8 later.

9 Okay. Can we go off the record for a minute.

10 (At this time a recess was taken.)

11 MR. de VLAMING: Just a couple of questions.

12 CROSS-EXAMINATION 13 BY MR. de VLAMING:

14 Q. Mr. Patterson, when you left the meeting at 15 the restaurant, was there any discussion with Mr.

16 Gaston about exchanging business cards?

17 A. Yes. In fact, he asked me if I could give 18 him my card because when he sat down, I believe, he 19 did hand me his card first and then I gave him my 20 card.

21 Q. And did you give that card to me?

22 A. Yes. I gave the card from Mr. Gaston to you.

23 Q. One other thing, the prosecutor had asked you 24 about statements that were made during course of the 25 meeting. You were not reviewing any notes, there's 36 1 nothing in front of you and no report.

2 Do you recall any conversation concerning Mr.

3 Prince pulling up or throwing away marijuana plants 4 during the course of that lunch and discussion?

5 A. Yes, I do.

6 Q. What was it?

7 A. He was talking to Mr. Gaston and said, "You 8 know, I kept throwing those" -- "those things kept 9 popping up," meaning the marijuana kept growing and he 10 kept throwing them away. They kept appearing in a 11 pods growing and he would throw them out. And he 12 goes, "Do you remember when we were pulling those out"

13 and Mr. Gaston said, "Yes." He said, "I remember 14 seeing you do that." Because apparently Prince was 15 pulling up marijuana that was growing and throwing it 16 out the door -- it was growing in pots on the pool 17 deck -- and Mr. Gaston recalled doing that and seeing 18 that.

19 MR. de VLAMING: That's all I have.

20 MRS. WARDELL: Okay. I just have a couple 21 follow-ups.

22 Let the record reflect that prior to Mr. de 23 Vlaming asking the witness some questions, we had 24 about a 15, maybe 20-minute break and we went 25 upstairs. Part of the subject of going up to the 37 1 judge was a report that was prepared in the case by 2 Mr. Emmons.

3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 4 BY MRS. WARDELL:

5 Q. Mr. Patterson, were you able to remember that 6 last statement that took place because you reviewed 7 the report during that break, and that portion was 8 pointed out to you?

9 A. Correct.

10 Q. And that portion was pointed out to you by 11 Mr. de Vlaming just outside this deposition room?

12 A. Correct.

13 Q. And it was looking at that report that made 14 you remember it?

15 A. Yes.

16 Q. You didn't remember it on your own when you 17 were recalling the conversation, correct?

18 A. No. But since I read it, I remember it 19 happening. It's been a few months, since October.

20 Q. Right. But that's a pretty important part of 21 the case, right?

22 MR. de VLAMING: Object to the form of the 23 question. This witness would not know what is 24 important to this case.

25 BY MRS. WARDELL:

38 1 Q. Well, you were made aware in your 2 conversations with Mr. Prince, regardless of who else 3 was present, that that's what he was going to put in 4 an affidavit, correct? Mr. Prince's defense to the 5 case is that the plants just started growing and he 6 kept pulling them out, right?

7 A. Right.

8 Q. That's a very important aspect of this case, 9 isn't it?

10 A. Sure.

11 Q. And you didn't remember that on your own, did 12 you?

13 A. Not offhand, no. After I saw the report, 14 then I recalled it.

15 Q. Right.

16 MRS. WARDELL: Okay. Anything else?

17 MR. de VLAMING: No.

18 MRS. WARDELL: All right.

19 MR. de VLAMING: We'll put him down for a 20 read.

21 (At this time the deposition in the 22 above-captioned matter was concluded at 23 10:41 a.m.)

24 25 39 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER 2 STATE OF FLORIDA ) 3 COUNTY OF PINELLAS ) 4 I, CRISSY CLADAKIS, Court Reporter, certify 5 that I was authorized to and did stenographically 6 report the foregoing deposition; and that the 7 transcript is a true record of the testimony given by 8 the witness.

9 I further certify that I am not a relative, 10 employee, attorney, or counsel of any of the parties, 11 nor am I a relative or employee of any of the parties' 12 attorney or counsel connected with the action, nor am 13 I financially interested in the action.

14 I, the undersigned authority, certify that 15 JIM PATTERSON personally appeared before me and was 16 duly sworn.

17 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 15th 18 day of May, 2001.

19 20 21 Crissy Cladakis 22 Notary Public - State of Florida 23 My Commission No. CC 736558 24 Expires: April 23, 2002 25 ERRATA SHEET READING AND SIGNING OF DEPOSITION TO BE ATTACHED TO THE DEPOSITION OF JIM PATTERSON TAKEN ON MAY 15, 2001, IN THE MATTER OF STATE OF FLORIDA VS. JESSE PRINCE BY CRISSY CLADAKIS TO THE DEPONENT: IN COMPLIANCE WITH THE RULES OF CIVIL PROCEDURE, THIS IS ATTACHED FOR YOUR INSPECTION AND SIGNATURE. ANY CHANGES IN THE DEPOSITION IN FORM OR SUBSTANCE WHICH YOU CARE TO MAKE ARE TO BE MADE ON THIS SHEET WITH YOUR REASON THEREFORE.

DO NOT WRITE ON THE DEPOSITION ITSELF RETURN THIS FORM AND THE ORIGINAL SIGNATURE PAGE WITHIN 14 DAYS TO D & D REPORTING SERVICE.

FOR THE STATE: Lydia WARDELL, Esquire FOR MR. PRINCE: Denis de Vlaming, Esquire LINE & PAGE NO. CHANGE OR CORRECTION AND REASON ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ ______________________________________________________ JIM PATTERSON __________________________ Date ____________ DEPONENT'S CERTIFICATE I have read the foregoing transcript of my oral deposition taken on the date and at the location indicated on the title page of the deposition, and I certify that said transcript is true and correct, with the provisions that any errors appearing therein have been corrected by me by listing on a separate sheet as to page number, line and content of said error(s), and further indicating the language to be substituted.

I also understand that upon completion of the reading, signing and correcting of the transcript, I am to return this original signature page, my list of corrections and said file copy provided for my inspection to the person or company listed on the pre-addressed envelope provided to me.

I further understand that if I do not carry out the instructions stated above within thirty days from the date I receive the transcript, I automatically waive my right to read and Scientology the deposition.

DATE: _____________________ NAME: ____________________ JIM PATTERSON MAY 15, 2001

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