On 20 Feb 2001 03:04:59 GMT, kymus2468@aol.comnospam (Kymus) wrote:

>>From: Gerry Armstrong armstrong@dowco.com
><snip drivel>
>>Wow, the clams have sent forth this day a philosopher.
>I sent myself here. Someone else sending me here is completely your
>inventioin. Its typical ars critic tactics - simply claim what you want to
>believe true is true and then criticize others for not knee-jerk subscribing to
>that also.
Or the "Kymus" method. Deny everything, then ignore it when evidence supporting the claim is posted, claim evidence was never posted, and knee-jerk kick yourself in the face like a moron.

Fact: Charles Manson took 120 hours of auditing in prison.

Fact: Manson claimed to be "Theta Clear" and listed "Scientologist" as his religion.

Fact: Witnesses including former Chief Cramming Officer at FLAG Dennis Erlich have stated that records were vetted of records including Charles Manson, indicating that such records existed.

Opinion: You are a moron.

Here's a long article previously posted on A.R.S, that covers this subject about Manson and Scientology pretty well I'd say. It came about because the PR department of the crime cult, and other shills for the damned cult, felt that it needed to once again deny that Manson ever was into Scientology.

The article in question was posted Wed, 24 Jun 1998 18:18:12 GMT, I'll include all headers for verification purposes.

>3) As far as Charles Manson being a famous Scientologist - I don't think so.
>In fact I know this is false and was proven so years ago. Manson
>never took a course or service in a Church of Scientology nor came near
>one. In 1971, Vincent T. Bugloisi, the Los Angeles Deputy District
>Attorney in charge of the Manson case said there was no evidence that
>Charles Manson was a practicing member of the Church.
>
Here it is:

From: an127900@anon.penet.fi
Date: Tue, 3 Jan 1995 18:28:05 UTC
Subject: Scientology and Helter Skelter [long]
For whomever was asking about Scientology & Helter Skelter:

I dug out my copy of Bugliosi's book "Helter Skelter."

(for the uninitiated, Vincent Bugliosi is the guy who prosecuted the Manson gang after the Tate-Labianca murders in Los Angeles in 1969;

"Helter Skelter", a sort of code-word used by the gang, is the title of a book he wrote with Curt Gentry about the case later.

I give it my HIGHEST RECOMMENDATION to anyone interested in courtroom drama and/or strategy, cults, or 60s sociology.

There's also movie, by the same name, but I haven't seen it.).

Here's most of what "the Bug" (as the Mansonites called him) says about Scientology or Hubbard:

All references are from _Helter_Skelter_, by Vincent Bugliosi with Curt Gentry, copyright 1974, W.W. Norton & Company Limited, New York (hardcover edition). Single quotation marks denote quotations within the book. All errors are mine unless otherwise noted with a [sic].

Upon being arrested in 1961, "Manson gave as his claimed religion `Scientologist,' stating that he `has never settled upon a religious formula for his beliefs and is presently seeking an answer to his question in the new mental health cult known as Scientology.' "Scientology, an outgrowth of science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics, was just coming into vogue at this time.

Manson's teacher, i.e. `auditor', was another convice, Lanier Rayner. Manson would later claim that while in prison he achieved Scientology's highest level, `beta- clear'.

"Although Manson remained interested in Scientology much longer than he did in any other subject except music, it appears that...he stuck with it only as long as his enthusiasm lasted, then dropped it, extracting and retaining a number of phrases (`auditioning' [sic], 'cease to exist', 'coming to Now') and some concepts (karma, reincarnation, etc.) which, perhaps fittingly, Scientology had borrowed in the first place." (pp. 144-145) By August of 1966, with little other explanation than his constant inability to stick with anything, a pre-release prison report mentions that "Manson had no further interest in academic or vocational training; that he was no longer an advocate of Scientology..." (p. 146) Charlie was more interested in a dark offshoot of a former Scientologist; a satanic cult: "The Process, also known as the Church of the Final Judgement... a very strange cult. Led by one Robert DeGrimston, t/n [true name] Robert Moore - who like Manson, was an ex-Scientologist -- its members worshipped both Satan and Christ..." (p. 224) An almost amusing vignette came from Paul "Tex" Watkins (an incredibly brutal and cold-blooded murderer) when Bugliosi interviewed him about Manson's philosophy:

"...Manson had told him that while he was in prison he had studied Scientology, becoming a "theta" which Manson defined as being "clear". Watkins said that in the summer of 1968 he and Charlie had dropped into a Church of Scientology in downtown Los Angeles, and Manson asked the receptionist, "What do you do after `clear'?" When she was unable to tell him anything he hadn't already done, Manson walked out." (p. 237)

Finally, Bugliosi sums up Manson's relationship with Scientology:

"I knew...that Manson was an eclectic, a borrower of ideas. I knew too, both from his prison records and from my conversations with him, that Manson's involvement with Scientology had been more than a passing fad. Manson told me, as he had Paul Watkins, that he had reached the highest stage, `beta clear', and no longer had any connection with or need for Scientology. I was inclined to accept at least the latter portion of his claim.

In my rather extensive investigation, I found no evidence of any kind that Manson was involved with Scientology after his release from prison in 1967.

[Footnote inserted in text: One of Manson's chief disciples, Bruce Davis, was very closely involved with Scientology for a time, working in its London headquarters from about November or December of 1968 to April of 1969. According to a Scientology spokesman, Davis was kicked out of the organization for his drug use. He returned to the Manson family...in time to participate in the Hinman and Shea slayings.]...

"Manson's link with The Process, or the Church of the Final Judgement, is more tenuous...The leader of the satanic cult is Robert Moore, whose cult name is Robert DeGrimston. Himself a former disciple of Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, Moore broke with Scientology about 1963 to form his own group, after apparently attaining a high position in the London headquarters..." (p. 470).

And a final note, perhaps irrelevant:

"On November 21, 1969, the bodies of James Sharp, 15, and Doreen Gaul, 19, were found in an alley in downtown Los Angeles. The two...had been killed elsewhere...then dumped there. Each had been stabbed over 50 times...

"Both James Sharp and Doreen Gaul were Scientologists, the latter a Scientology `clear' who had been residing in a Church of Scientology commune less than two miles from the Labianca residence. According to several sources, Doreen Gaul was a former girl friend of Manson Family member Bruce Davis, who, like Manson himself, was an ex-scientologist...[Davis] disappeared shortly after being questioned [about another murder]." (p. 478)

All in all, pretty sordid stuff; but as you can see, not much evidence that Scientology had very much influence on Manson. In fact, unless the terminology has changed since the mid-60s, it seems like he didn't even understand too much of what he was studying... or are terms like "beta-clear" etc. real?

Anyway, there's much more about Scientology in Ed Saunders' _The_Family, if I remember correctly; if I can only remember where I've stashed *that*...

Rickie

"The subject that interested me was understanding and knowing my own mind. Prison psychs had told me often enough that I had 'persecution' and 'inferiority' complexed but they never did anything to help me overcome those faults..."

"Manson in His Own Words", as told to Nuel Emmons. Grove Weidenfeld, New York, 1986 p.69 on his favorite reading topics while in prison:

"I read whatever books I could find (and understand) that dealt with mind development. A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how to direct my energies to each day and each task"

ibid., p. 69-70 on his conversations with Alan "Creepy" Karpis, an imprisoned hit-man:

"There were times when I would try to sell Karpis on the things I was learning through Scientology. 'Kid', he would say, 'your mind is your greatest friend, yet it can be your worst enemy. Don't get it more fucked up than the world has already made it.'"

ibid., p.73 Charlie also mentions his associate Bruce Davis had been involved in Scientology at one point, verifying the claims of others on this group.

Seized in the 1977 FBI raids.] Report of interview with Raul Morales, Re: Charles Manson.

According to Raul: Raul arrived in prison on McNeil Island, Washington in 1962 and became a cell mate of Lafayette Raimer allegedly a trained Scientology auditor (about Level I in Rauls's estimation) and was introduced to Scientology at that time. Raimer was auditing in prison at that time and in one 10 man cell had managed to gather a group of about 7, all in Scientology. Charles Manson entered later and studied, did TR0 etc. along with his cell-mates and received approximately 150 hours of auditing from Raimer. Processes used were CCH's, Help processes (Who have you helped-Who have you not helped) and other Dichotomy processes (Rauls terms, such as What can you confront, what would you rather not confront), Havingness (Such as "What can you have?" "Look around and find something you can have. Look around and find something you're not in." Raimer kept records of his auditing. Manson got super-energetic & flipped out when he'd been audited and would, for a time, talk about nothing but Scientology to the extent that people avoided his company. After a while, however, Manson was screaming to get away from his auditor (in Raul's opinion, he'd been severely over-run or something). He eventually managed to get put in solitary confi- nement to get away from his auditor. Eventually prison officials got suspicious of the groups strange activities and broke up the group.

--
emerald@alpha.c2.org
========
Subject: Re: Repost: Charles Manson and scientology
From: lepton@panix.com (Mike O'Connor)
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 1996 01:16:43 -0500
In article <4iq30n$g5d@crl12.crl.com>, milne@crl.com (Andrew Milne) wrote:

[...] > Indeed, in 1971, Vincent T. Bugliosi -- former Los
> Angeles deputy district attorney in charge of the Manson case
> for the city, and subsequent author of the best selling book
> "Helter Skelter" -- stated the following in a letter
> addressing this point:
>
> "This is to advise that our investigation of the
> Tate-La Bianca murders has not revealed any evidence showing
> that any member of the Church of Scientology was involved in
> these murders, nor have we found any evidence that Charles
> Manson was a practicing member of the Church of Scientology
> at the time of the aforementioned murders.
>
> "I hope the above statement will be of some value to
> you and your church in the event that anyone in the future
> accuses the Church of Scientology of being somehow involved
> in these heinous murders."
>
> Thus any attempts to link Manson and his crimes to
> Scientology is a sorry and spurious attempt to create
> controversy where there is none, as proven here.

Not DURING the murders, BEFORE the murders. Let's see what else Mr.

Bugliosi says, then what Manson says, then what some others say:

++++++++++++++++++++++ Upon being arrested in 1961, "Manson gave as his claimed religion `Scientologist,' stating that he `has never settled upon a religious formula for his beliefs and is presently seeking an answer to his question in the new mental health cult known as Scientology.' "Scientology, an outgrowth of science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard's Dianetics, was just coming into vogue at this time.

Manson's teacher, i.e. `auditor', was another convice, Lanier Rayner. Manson would later claim that while in prison he achieved Scientology's highest level, `beta- clear'...

"Although Manson remained interested in Scientology much longer than he did in any other subject except music, it appears that...he stuck with it only as long as his enthusiasm lasted, then dropped it, extracting and retaining a number of phrases (`auditioning' [sic], 'cease to exist', 'coming to Now') and some concepts (karma, reincarnation, etc.) which, perhaps fittingly, Scientology had borrowed in the first place."

-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 144 ++++++++++++++++++++++ By August of 1966, with little other explanation than his constant inability to stick with anything, a pre-release prison report mentions that "Manson had no further interest in academic or vocational training; that he was no longer an advocate of Scientology..."

-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 146 ++++++++++++++++++++++ "I knew too, both from his prison records and from my conversations with him, that Manson's involvement with Scientology had been more than a passing fad. Manson told me, as he had Paul Watkins, that he had reached the highest state, "theta clear", and no longer had any connection with or need for Scienology."

-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 635 ++++++++++++++++++++++ On November 21, 1969, the bodies of James Sharp, fiften, and Dorren Gaul, nineteen, were found in an alley in downtown Los Angeles. The two teen-agers had been killed elsewhere with a long-bladed kniife or bayonet, then dumped there. Each had been stabbed over fifty times.

Ramparts division Leiutenant Earl Deemer investigated the Sharp-Gaul murders, as did Los Angeles Times reporter Cohen. Although the two men felt there was a good possibility that a Familty member was involved in the slayings, the murders remain unsolved.

Both James Sharp and Doreen Gaul were Scientologists, the latter a Scientology "clear" who had been residing in a Church of Scientology house. According to unconfirmed reports, Doreen Gaul was a former girl friend of Manson Family member Bruce Davis, himself an ex-Scientologist.

Davis' whereabouts at the times of the murders of Sharp, Gaul and Jane Doe 59 are not known. He disappeared shortly after being questioned in connection with the death of Zero.

On December 1, 1969, Joel Dean Pugh, husband of Family member Sandy Good, was found with his throat slit in a London hotel room. As noted, local police ruled the death a suicide. On learning of Pugh's demise, Inyo County DA Frank Fowles made official inquiries, specifically asking Interpol to check visas to detrmine if one Bruce Davis was in England at the time.

Scotland Yard replied as follows: "It has been established that Davis is recorded as embarking at London airport for the United States of America on 25th April 1969 while holding United States passport 612 2568. At this time he gave his address as Dormer Cottage, Felbridge, Surrey. This address is owned by the Scientology Movement and houses followers of this organization."

-- HELTER SKELTER by Vincent T. Bugliosi, page 647 ++++++++++++++++++++++ "The subject that interested me was understanding and knowing my own mind.

Prison psychs had told me often enough that I had 'persecution' and 'inferiority' complexed but they never did anything to help me overcome those faults..."

"I read whatever books I could find (and understand) that dealt with mind development. A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how to direct my energies to each day and each task"

-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69 ++++++++++++++++++++++ "There were times when I would try to sell Karpis on the things I was learning through Scientology. 'Kid', he would say, 'your mind is your greatest friend, yet it can be your worst enemy. Don't get it more fucked up than the world has already made it.'"

-- MANSON IN HIS OWN WORDS, as told to Nuel Emmons p.69 [on Alan "Creepy" Karpis, an imprisoned hit-man] ++++++++++++++++++++++ One famous, in fact infamous person interested in Scientology that they do not boast about, talk about, or probably even want is Charles Manson, the convicted murderer of Sharon Tate and her friends. The New York Times stated that Manson first got interested in Scientology while he was incarcerated in the McNeil Island Penitentiary in Washington (Scientology' has programs for prisons). After his release, The Times reported, he went to Los Angeles where he was said to have met local Scientologists and attended several parties for movie stars, possibly the July 18 dedication of the celebrity center. Scientology literature was also said to be found at the ranch when Manson and his family were captured. But for reasons unknown, it is claimed that Manson may have been made a "suppressive person" by the Scientologists, and there have also been hints that he may have joined the Process, the sex and satan group which originally broke away from Scientology,.

-- A PIECE OF BLUE SKY ++++++++++++++++++++++ KEY DEFENSIVE MATERIALS The following is a list of VITAL materials that will help you understand how Dianetics and Scientology according to their own internal and secret policies tends to deal with their advesaries in a conflict. Knowing it in advance you can save yourself a lot of difficulty.

[...] The following list of documents were siezed by the FBI on its authorized search of Scientology's headquarters in LA and Washington DC. They are all obtainable using the freedom of Information act, request procedures. Complete sets have also been sent to the three anti cult organizations mentioned near the end of this document.

5.* Write up of May 1, 1974. Regarding Security and Theft of Ma~erials. (How to for, breaking and entering procedures.)

6.* Write up December 2, 1974.

7. L.R.H. Aides Conference. November 2, 1969. Covert Operations.

8.* Intelligence Specialist Training Routine. TR-L (Intel TR's, How to lie effectively.)

9.* FBI Document #8592.

10.* Red Box Data Information Sheet (Contains information on how to purge internal files of disinformation, non profit lobbying, and any information which would show that Church of Scientology motives were nonhumanitarian.)

11.* Operation Freakout. April 1 1976. (Church attempts to drive insane, incapitate, or jail critic using 5.5. and Gestapo like tactics.)

12. June 22, 1970. Compliance Report Regarding Charles Manson, Bruce Davis. (Manson went a bit wild on Auditing.)

[...] - Lawrence Wollersheim FACTNET document ++++++++++++++++++++++ From: dennis.l.erlich@support.com
Message-ID: <9510252121.0U0BI04@support.com>
Date: Wed, 25 Oct 95 21:21:40 -0700
[...] OSA has a standard patter to answer the Manson allegations.

Trouble is, it's not true. Manson was a scieno. He took the Comm Course at LA Org in 67, I believe it was. Before I got there. I remember hearing something about it when the vetting occurred.

++++++++++++++++++++++ From: anon-remailer@utopia.hacktic.nl (Anonymous)
Date: 30 Oct 1995 08:48:23 +0100
Message-ID: <472007$5qf@utopia.hacktic.nl>
[...] >nobody@flame.alias.net (Anonymous) wrote:
[...] >> In article <46ppt5$1v8@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, DWTripp <dwtripp@aol.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >I was on ASHO staff at the time. I did hold a tech post. My knowledge
>> >regarding GO actions in the wake of Manson's arrest came from my
>> >attendence at regular Friday night poker games where the presence of
>> >Henning Heldt, Martin Greenberg and other GO people was consistent. Yes,
>> >they did talk shop. The "claim" made at the time (I believe it was Martin)
>> >was that LA Org records had shown that Manson had possibly done a
>> >Communications Course and bought some books. No refernce was ever made
>> >regarding any purge of records and if such was done, it was likely
>> >initiated by LA Org Execs. Possibly even Erlich.
>>
>> This is bullshit. This is the GO trying to MINIMIZE Manson's
Not bullshit.

>> involvement. Using the word "possibly" is trying to avoid an outright
>> lie (Manson wasn't involved) to a fellow Scientologist.
>>
>> You all have the WRONG slant on this. I'm not saying Charles Manson
^^^ ^^^^^^^ Correction, mostly all wrong. Too much speculation, too few facts.

Charles Manson was a Scientologist.

"Possibly" is correct re Comm Course at LA Day.

In addition to auditing when he was in jail, Charles Manson was "being handled" as a "clandestine op" off org lines. (If you don't know what this means, ask Dennis - or Henning or Moxon or McShane or DM if you can.)

When the news of the murders reached MSH and LRH on the ship they immediately sent an encoded telex to D/G US to cancel the msn and vet all records. A GO "assessment" was done to evaluate the risk to LRH (not Scn) if info re the Manson connection was discovered.

(ONLY Henning, the ops and the missionaire should have known and certainly this would NOT have been poker party chat.) Years later, when Manson's name came up again LRH ordered another "assessment" done.

This time the order travelled thru the CMO and was seen to by none other than ________ .

Be ye able to fill in the blank, Andy, boy?

Tak' th' high road and ask aboot yoor own hoose, me laddy.

Rocks be a' slammin' Old Timer ++++++++++++++++++++++ -Mike ======== Subject: Re: Community Improvement - Doing something effective about it
From: cat@brc.ubc.ca (Cat Davidson-Hall)
Date: Mon, 13 May 1996 12:42:49 -0800
In article <koreenb-1205962243450001@cs2-s22-losangeles.datadepot.com>, koreenb@jovanet.com (Cory Brennan) wrote:

> Below are two accounts from prisoners who went through the Criminon
> program, a program which uses technology developed by L Ron Hubbard to
> rehabilitate criminals.
<snip, snip, snip>

I interrupt Cory's unverifiable anecdotes to bring you another Big Win for Scientology in America's prison system. Unlike Cory's stories, my little quote is easily confirmed.

"A cell partner turned me on to Scientology. With him and another guy I got pretty heavy into Dianetics and Scientology. Through this and by other studies, I came out of my state of depression. I was understanding myself better, had a positive outlook on life, and knew how to direct my energies to each day and each task"

Charles Manson, from _Manson: In His Own Words_ Care to comment, Cory?

Cat SP4, KoX
-- "I wanted to know the exact dimensions of hell. Does this sound simple? Fuck you." - Sonic Youth "One day he's going to kill me, and he'll get away with it because he's O.J." - Nicole Brown

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