In article <mWyNrUAl4zS0EwMs@xemu.demon.co.uk>, Dave Bird wrote: >
> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>
> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?

In the Sea Org in PAC where I was, the percentage of active believers in other religions was ZERO. The only "religious" belief that they actively practiced was _Scientology_. Of my 8 years in the Sea Org I know of two staff members (out of hundreds) who were "offloaded" and declared "PTS Type H" for believing in Christianity. They were Jim Bird and John Richards, if my memory serves me well.

> What religion and denomination were they??

Christian. But consistent with Scientology's IRS filing, once they were discovered to be engaging in "other practices" they were told to stop. Since they failed to comply, they were declared "PTS" and "SP" (respectively) for being in non-compliance with "Source" (L. Ron Hubbard) issues on types of "PTS".

If there were other staff who were trying to be actively practice other religious beliefs, I am not aware of them. Perhaps there were others who simply kept their mouths shut, but I very highly doubt this since *no one* in the Sea Org can go anywhere (especially to a real church service) without his or her absence being noted. This was especially true on Sunday mornings because we all had to attend muster and then go straight to staff study (or into an "auditing session"). The SSO (Staff Section Officer) and the STO (Staff Training Officer) were in charge of keeping track of the whereabouts of all staff during this designated "enhancement time" period. If one was unaccounted for (meaning not "on study" or "in session"), an "Ethics report" was written. "Enhancement time" (12 1/2 hours per week) was *mandatory* in the Sea Org, and it was strictly enforced that staff adhered to the schedule and program. It's called "holding the form of the org" in Scientologese.

Realize that I am speaking about the Sea Org regulations. It is a different thing for public Scientologists, but a reading of Hubbard's policies on types of "PTSes", and a look at Scientology's IRS filing for their tax exempt status will disclose that Scientologists (even non-staff, or "public", as they are called) will clearly show that all Scientologists are expected (required) to *not* practice _any_ other practice while on Scientology "services". It's policy by Hubbard.

So while it may be possible for one to be a practicing member of another religion (I mean a bonafide religion) when one joins staff or signs up for services, the truth is that Scientology quickly does its best to convert people to dedicated "on purpose" Scienos with that "fixed stare in their eyes" (ref: HCO PL _Keeping Scientology Working_). Hubbard said, "Never permit a half-minded approach". The new member is expected to convert to only being a practicing Scientologist.

The exception, as I have observed, is the treatment given to celebrities. They are treated with "kid gloves" so as not to cause them to get upset with the treatment they receive by Scientology.

Think about this: If Bill Broderick of the Sea Org got on TV and said that Scientologists can practice other religions and be a Scientologist at the same time, who would put much creedence to his words? Even if people did, who would remember Bill Broderick's name a day, a week or a month later?

But if John Travolta gets on TV and says one can be a Scientologist and a Christian at the same time, I guarantee you people will surely remember that! Hubbard knew this well. That's why he uses celebrities as PR spokespersons to speak well of Scientology. And due the fact that celebrities receive very different treatment, it may even be true that they are allowed to practice other religions.

But in the Sea Org, no one is anything but a practicing Scientologist. They are called "the elite" of Scientology. Other practices are forbidden.

Warrior End of article 347633 (of 348158) -- what next?

alt.religion.scientology #347693 From: deomorto@aol.com (DeoMorto)
Date: Mon Oct 20 18:40:30 CDT 1997

>In article <mWyNrUAl4zS0EwMs@xemu.demon.co.uk>, Dave Bird wrote:

>> What religion and denomination were they??

Echoing Warrior - zero. Again I should emphasize as Warrior did that I was in the Sea Org and thus I cannot say with any certainty that this was the case for "publics" - I can certainly state that when I was on mission in Tel Aviv org that the Sabbath was in no way adhered to except that there was no regging during the day on saturday. I should say here that of course, if someone were somewhat orthodox that I would not have seen them in the org during the sabbath but the fact that the org was open and that most of the people that i knew seemed to be there. The only religious observance I saw during the whole time was a party to celebrate the last night of Hanukkah that got a bit too loud and the neighbors called the police. In my whole time in scientology I never ever saw anyone go to another church service (family affairs excepted). In the SO it would have been impossible - when would you go?

End of article 347693 (of 348158) -- what next? [npq]

From: Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine <dave@xemu.
+ demon.co.uk> [1] Re: Question to (Ex?)Members, concerning other + religions Date: Mon Oct 20 20:00:20 CDT 1997

In article <62gav5$2n8@drn.zippo.com>, Warrior <warrior@electrotex.com> writes: >In article <mWyNrUAl4zS0EwMs@xemu.demon.co.uk>, Dave Bird wrote:
>>
>> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
>> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
>> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>>
>> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
>> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
>> believers in other religions during their membership?
>
> In the Sea Org in PAC where I was, the percentage of active believers
>in other religions was ZERO. The only "religious" belief that they
actively >practiced was _Scientology_. Of my 8 years in the Sea Org I know of two
>staff members (out of hundreds) who were "offloaded" and declared "PTS
>Type H" for believing in Christianity. They were Jim Bird and John
Richards, >if my memory serves me well.

OK -- Sea Org weeds out all "mixing of practices". How about non-SO staff, and public, in various countries. Anyone?

End of article 347916 (of 348158) -- what next? [npq]

alt.religion.scientology #348033 (7 + 265 more) From: Jana Moreillon <morejd@mail.gte.net>

[1] Re: Question to (Ex?)Members, concerning other + religions Date: Tue Oct 21 22:21:33 CDT 1997

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:

> In article <62gav5$2n8@drn.zippo.com>,
> Warrior <warrior@electrotex.com> writes:
> >In article <mWyNrUAl4zS0EwMs@xemu.demon.co.uk>, Dave Bird wrote:

I was a public member for 35 years. During that time, I knew one person who said that she was a practicing Catholic. She did it at the request of the Guardian's Office.In fact, there were (are) NO members of the huborg who are also practicing members of any other religion. If one insists on retaining a belief in a religion, he is ordered to a Remedy B, which is to handle his allegiance to ANYTHING other than huborg. Other actions which address the "other Practices" issue are the various Green Forms wherein the handlings can be found. Confessionals are also used.

jana

End of article 348033 (of 348158) -- what next? [npq]

alt.religion.scientology #347682 (6 + 265 more) From: armstrong@ntonline.com (gerry armstrong)

On Mon, 20 Oct 1997 12:19:01 +0100, Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine <dave@xemu.demon.co.uk> wrote:

> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>
> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?

Zero!

> What religion and denomination were they??

I recently saw an ethics order on someone kicking them out of Scientology for remaining a member of the Methodist Church.

It was absolutely forbidden in every part of the Scientology enterprise where I was (Vancouver, Apollo, Dunedin, Clearwater, La Quinta, Gilman Hotsprings, Los Angeles) for anyone to be an active believer in any [other] religion and remain in the org. There was a couple in the RPF in Clearwater who announced their belief in God. They were guarded, sec checked, made to sign "crimes" culled from their pc folders, made to accept a "freeloader debt," and finally "off-loaded."

It was common "knowledge" in the organization that people who believed in God were "psychotic" and were treated as such. Such people could of course be used to forward Scientology's public relations goals.

During the "Apollo" years, the 400+ people on board never admitted to being Scientologists, and it was a security violation, punishable with a "treason condition," if anyone let slip to a "wog" that he or she

was a Scientologist, or that Scientology was operating on board. Our cover was "Operation and Transport Corporation" of Panama, a business management company. If anyone was asked by a wog in the ports we visited what his or her religion was, the person was drilled to state the religion he or she was raised in; e.g., Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran.

This shows the facility of Scientologists in lying. The same facility is shown in the organization's claim of compatibility with [other] religions. Scientology at its core is dedicated to the destruction of [other] religions. Which to the facile Scientologists is just another way of saying that they are all compatible.

Gerry

End of article 347682 (of 348158) -- what next? [npq]

alt.religion.scientology #347713 (1 + 265 more) From: Joe Harrington <joeharr@worldnet.att.net>

gerry armstrong wrote: >
> > What religion and denomination were they??
> >
> I recently saw an ethics order on someone kicking them out of
> Scientology for remaining a member of the Methodist Church.
>
> It was absolutely forbidden in every part of the Scientology
> enterprise where I was (Vancouver, Apollo, Dunedin, Clearwater, La
> Quinta, Gilman Hotsprings, Los Angeles) for anyone to be an active
> believer in any [other] religion and remain in the org. There was a
> couple in the RPF in Clearwater who announced their belief in God.
> They were guarded, sec checked, made to sign "crimes" culled from
> their pc folders, made to accept a "freeloader debt," and finally
> "off-loaded."

The "Students Guide to Acceptable Behaviour", which all staff are continously subject to, has a specific clause that prohibits one from engaging in any ritual ritual or practice. Perhaps someone who has a copy of it can post the relevant sections.

Joe

End of article 347708 (of 348158) -- what next?

alt.religion.scientology #347793 (3 + 265 more) From: nukewaster@aol.com (NUKEWASTER)

[1] Re: Question to (Ex?)Members, concerning other + religions Date: Mon Oct 20 20:08:29 CDT 1997

As a child of SO/then staff members, I knew zero persons in SO or on staff who practiced another religion. As SO, a request to one's superior for "time off to attend XYZ church/religious services" would have gotten you bounced into RPF land faster than one could catch their breath.

I am aware of some long-time public scientologists who practice a very liberal/reform version of Judaism. I also know of one Catholic priest who was on course as public at FSO in the 1980's. Whether it was to become a scientologist, or just to study scientology for his order of Catholics, I do not know.

End of article 347793 (of 348158) -- what next? [npq]

alt.religion.scientology #347713 (1 + 265 more) From: Joe Harrington <joeharr@worldnet.att.net>

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote: >
> Scientology presents itself in W.I.S. as "an applied religious
> philiosophy" compatible with other religious beliefs. I know
> this is a somewhat disputed statement but....
>
> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?
>
> What religion and denomination were they??

Based upon my recollection of the data in personal history statements in the pc folders, I'd say that Catholicism is the highest group represented as prior religious training/orientation.

Joe (Mail) End of article 347713 (of 348158)

alt.religion.scientology #347958 (0 + 265 more) Date: Tue Oct 21 14:20:01 CDT 1997
From: Secret Squirrel <Use-Author-Address-

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:

> In your estimate, what percentage of staff or public Scientologists
> (in the area/nation where you were a member) were in fact active
> believers in other religions during their membership?
>
> What religion and denomination were they??

If by "active" you mean regularly attending Church, I would have to say very few, none of them staff members. I did know one couple who came to Saint Hill (as public, NOT staff) and were regularly attending Church services. They were routed to Ethics under the "other practices" policy where pressure was put on them to give up the Church services. I don't remember what denomination they were or the eventual outcome, but I remember at least one of them wasn't very happy about it.

Of course, it would simply have been impractical for staff to take part in Church services. And beyond that it is standard Tech/Policy for Scientologists to be dedicated (i.e. open-mindedness prohibited, other practices prohibited, etc.). Actively participating in another religion just wouldn't have been on-source!

Now if you are refering to people coming from other religious backgrounds and maintaining their religious beliefs in so far as it is possible within Scio, I would say a very high percentage of those with such beliefs tried to rationalize them within the Scientology belief system.

In my own case, there were some definate conflicts between Scio beliefs and my previous beliefs. I found it necessary to adjust my beliefs to come up with a compromise that was somewhat (but not totally) compatible with these belief systems. Of course, this compromise was totally incompatible with the upper level materials, but I didn't know that at the time.

I now believe firmly that the whole purpose of Scientology's position is purely and simply a device to allow it to present itself as a religion without requiring "parishoners" to have any specific theological beliefs until they are far enough into it that they're not likely to leave when they find out Scio's true beliefs, or they've already forked over the dough.

SON OF XENU

--

"I was not prepared to shoot my eardrum out with a shotgun in order to get a deferment. Nor was I willing to go to Canada. So I chose to better myself by learning how to fly airplanes." -- George W. Bush - [Houston Chronicle, 5/8/94]

Cheerful Charlie

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