From http://www-2.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/ATG/tradenet-board-meeting.txt From mdallara@kcii.com Sat Mar 7 13:58:33 EST 1998 Article: 108569 of alt.religion.scientology Path:

mistletoe.srv.cs.cmu.edu!honeysuckle.srv.cs.cmu.edu!bb3.andrew.cmu.edu!pitt.edu!dsinc!nntp.upenn.edu!newsserver.jvnc.net!newshub.northeast.verio.net!howland.erols.net!feed2.news.erols.com!erols!newsfeed.xcom.net!cam-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!cpk-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.bbnplanet.com!pln-w!spln!extra.newsguy.com!newsp.newsguy.com!news1 From: mdallara@kcii.com (Mark Dallara)
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alt.religion.scientology,fl.general,fl.politics,alt.scientology.scam.scam.scam Subject: TradeNet Board Meeting, 8/18/97 - "No Honor Among Thieves"
Date: Sat, 07 Mar 1998 04:11:59 GMT
Message-ID: <351bc842.17973660@news.newsguy.com>
OK, kids, settle back in your seat for this one. The theme of today's class is "No Honor Among Thieves". Get nice 'n' comfortable, because it's 80 scanned pages of transcript from a board meeting of our favorite $cientology multi-level marketing scam, TradeNet Marketing, Inc.

This was turned over to the Florida Attorney General's office in Tampa because TradeNet was subpoenaed as part of a consumer fraud investigation.

I filed a Sunshine Law (119) request for this document with the AG's office, and they promptly complied in a very professional manner.

As you read, try to keep in mind the time frame - August of last year.

TradeNet was subpoenaed 7/25/97, and again on 9/29/97. They produced a number of materials for each one, and this transcript was handed over October 6. Just last month it was reported that TradeNet was selling their building in downtown Dunedin, so try to imagine all the events that must have transpired between then and now. What must it have been like in that building when they had to turn over the meeting tapes/transcript?

What was the reaction when a piece of the transcript made its way into the SP Times? This meeting adds a lot of context to the Knowledge Report that Martin Ottman a few weeks ago. There are a number of names in this document that should be familiar to a lot of you, some less so, some more so.

I tried to scan, OCR, format, and proofread as well and as speedily as I could. If there are any questions, comments or corrections from the peanut gallery (or from any of the hapless participants in this pathetic little tragicomedy), then I will be happy to clarify. Read the transcriber's notes - those xxx's are not mine, they are the transcriber's and they indicate confusion over a word.

My comments appear in brackets [MD: xxxx]. I just couldn't help myself...
[BEGIN TRANSCRIPT] Transcription of tape Board Meeting 8/18/97 Transcriber's notes:

Cross-checked against another recording (microcassette).

xxx ~ couldn't quite get the word(s) (words in parentheses) = someone else talking, commenting, answering etc.

Something written like the following: I don't know (?) means I think that's what they said.

Side One, First Large Cassette Tape SIDE ONE, FIRST MICROCASSETTE (Brian Andrus) August 18th.

(Female) That's right.

And Alberto Guerrero's here, Lilly Guerrero, Lynn Irons, Bill Cooper and Jennifer Kemp, Syivia Annau, Erwin Annau and myself, Brian Andrus. So we're going to have a meeting. What I want to do if it's OK with you guys is kind of MC it, if that's alright. Is that OK? MC it, kind of control it - is that alright with everybody? (Yup.) OK, great.

Um, there's a lot of stuff that kinda gone down and around and what we're going to do is get some communication going, uh, to resolve these things.

I think probably the first thing it would be a good idea to do would be to answer any questions because you've kind of been out of the loop, answer any questions...

(Erwin) No questions now.

(?) Anybody has...any questions you have, Alberto? (No.) Lilly? Lynn?

(Lilly) No.

(Brian) OK. Great. OK, so you've asked me a lot of questions I couldn't answer over the weekend Erwin so I'll just bring those up. You basically wanted to know what was going on, and it's covered somewhat in the notes I took - those are just my notes of the meeting that Bill had with John Collins, and it's been since that time you've taken actions to um take care of a number of different situations.

Now I wrote this up and this, is a Confidentiality Agreement which you guys can sign and agree to or disagree to. What it says is,'Mr. Erwin Annau, Mrs. Sylvia Annau, Mr. Lynn Irons, Mr. Bill Cooper, Mr. Alberto Guerrero, Mr. Brian Andrus, Miss Jennifer Kemp, any others in attendance - which there won't be - oh, I forgot Lilly, I'm sorry, Jesus, alright, Mrs.

Lilly Guerrero - well hold today's discussions including any agreements or disagreements and any future discussions of these issues quickly to and confidential to those who are currently in attendance. Such are therefore not to be discussed amongst any others unless unanimously agreed upon.

[ MD: uh, Brian?... could you speak a little louder into the mic?] The whole idea of that - and I know we have recorders going and everything - it's basicly to establish some kind of space in which to discussion can occur. (Others: Good. Sure. Fine.)

Is that alright? (Yeah) OK. Now Lilly and Jennifer, I, uh, if you could just put your names in there and sign next to it?

Well, alright, now that everybody's that, that's that. My purpose here is basically to be a facilitator, to help this discussion move along.

Because I can see everybody is completely keyed out, (laughing) and I can see that just by my own eyes, so it should go very well. Um, there is - you know, at the end of all this, there is some agreements that I mocked up which I would like all of you - and this time I did include everybody - which is "In lieu of agreements signed on this day that are contain other documents, which we can look over and talk about, which aren't even addressed yet - involving all parties below, the following is the list of the exchanges between all parties which is in effect today and in the future. 1. All parties agree to treat each other with all due respect outside of this agreement and into the future. 2. All parties agree to support as possible the efforts of one another relative to their own well being. 3. No parties are to natter about another who is not present and natter is not to be communicated to another or others. I think I've covered all flows on that. 4. (Lynn: Can you natter to yourself about if you're a xxx, about yourself?) (laughter) That's not covered by the agreement.

[MD: No Naughty Nattering Nabobs of Negativity!...] ;) Alright. Now I don't necessarily cover all points in this but I'll continue along here as...2, 3, (1, 2, 3.) Sylvia? (You have any cappuccino? Etc) OK, attorneys have their use, that's fine and well, xxx wanted to be in on the meeting and I thought it was a bad idea because I think they can get through this OK. (Good) So he's not here, he didn't sign an agreement, so there we have it.

OK, I'll continue. Number 4, Mr. and Mrs. Erwin Annau are to be - are to keep any public accurately informed and not originate or allow any misinformation and to refer any press or legal inquiries to the proper terminal at TradeNet and not to become involved in answering such inquiries. 5. (What is this all about?) Let me continue. (Could you just read it again?) Sure. 4. Mr. and Mrs. Erwin Annau are to be - are to keep any public accurately informed and not originate or allow any misinformation and to refer any press or legal inquiries to the proper terminal at TradeNet and not to become involved in answering such inquiries.

(Erwin) Why is it in my name and Sylvia's name? Doesn't it apply to everybody here?

(Brian) It does.

(Erwin) So why is in my name?

(Brian) Because it's part of the situation, we're looking at exchanges between two groups. And the next one, let me read the next one and it'll make more sense to you. TradeNet and its principals are to keep its public and press accurately informed and not originate or allow any misinformation as regards Mr. or Mrs. Erwin Annau. Does that answer your question?

(Erwin) No. Why is there a "me" and "them"?

[MD: Erwin is not all that swift, folks.] (Brian) Uh, OK, well, good, well thatll be answered shortly, I think - it should be. 6. To hold Mr. and Mrs. Annau harmless from any management decisions made on behalf of TradeNet as of this date and into the future.

7. All parties agree to utilize mediation tools in order to handle any future disagreements or issues that are not xxx resolved in 2-way communication, OK. Ill address your issue right away, I think the reason why is basicallv because, as it stands, um, Lynn, I'll turn it over to Lynn, he can explain what the current scene is if it's alright with you.

(Lynn) Sure.

(Brian) I mean, that kind of...

(Lynn) Yeah, here's what on the table. We have a situation here that you know - you guys know something about. There's been a considerable amount of noise in the field related to TradeNet but specifically related to you, Erwin, that has resulted in ATG giving us an ultimatum that in order for them to continue the relationship with us, I assume that would be barring any violation of any legal agreements, that you need to go off the Lines.

You've heard about this.

(Erwin) Why is the noise? Give me any reason for it.

(Lynn) Well, I, I can tell you the sources. Let me just lay the whole thing on the table and then we can dive into it. I don't know. Well, you'd have to talk to John Collins about that specifically. I also have some other reports. First of all, it started with a lot of complaints to them - Top Marketing, from Top Marketing, complaints of gouging, complaints on printing materials that were - created legal liabilities and possibilities for prosecution. OK?

(Erwin) That was not - nothing that I signed that was like that. And already found this one thing that John Collins held under my nose that was OK'd by David Can, so...

(Lynn) Well, whatever the reason...

(Erwin) ...there was no substantiation - mediation - I don't want to take it further with no substantiation on that. I would request that after this meeting, Ill get the specifics.

(Lynn) Well, what would be real enlightening for you is to call John Collins and ask him why he wants you out of here and off the lines and hell probably tell you very directly. I don't want to beat around the bush on this, I just want to lay the issues out. This, isn't a legal hearing, I think we have some major things to confront here. Number One is ATG wants you out and off the lines, for their reasons, and from what I'm told it's the amount of heat, noise and distraction, accusations, upset, turmoil, complaints that theyte gotten on their lines because of Top Marketing and I think in some cases on you specifically. OK, that's one issue we have on the table.

It's a similar viewpoint held by the Executive Distributor Council and talks that I've had with them and things that they've told me, they feel that there's a total lack of credibility in you and they basically, uh, want you off the lines.

(Erurin) OK, may I tell you, since we're on tape here, my opinion on this, is the EDC wants TradeNet to go on and basically to do is to shoot the one guy who built it up. Xxx. OK. That was the whole strategy there and John Collins just picked it up. Also you must know that I had put my credibility on the line in February in order to save the ship, and since the company did not perform, as it was promised many, many times, uh, as you know Simon Bolivar policy - that the troops turn against the leader because the leader did not perform, which like I was suddenly snapped terminals with the organization. I'm the one who put the organization there, nobody else did, as witnessed two weeks after I went on the road the stats went down, and not recovered, and I however put my credibility on the line, Yes, you're gonna get the computer done" and Yes, we're going to get the organization done" and "Yes, we're going to get shipping done", and none of that has transpired in six months, and that's why the group is turning against me.

(Lynn) OK. So the third area here as an example is the weekend that I spent in Arkansas with a major leader there Julia Thier and her, and her, and her key guys. They would vote along with the EDC and ATG to have you off the lines for various reasons and reports, they don't want you to be there. So what we have here is a major, major PR sit. And we have a major threat to our survival because of your out-PR with ATG. Now we can say a lot of things the reasons for it and we can argue about it until the cows come home, early in the morning, but I don't think - I think the major point wete got to look at is there is a major out-PR situation with you regarding these entities, which creates a liability for this company, so that's - that's one major area. That exists. For whatever reasons, we can argue about it, should it be, shouldn't it be, whatever, but it is real and it does exist and this company and the Board here has to deal with it. That's one area. Now the other area which I think is of key importance as well is - and I think it affects you guys very much personally as well - and that is the situation with your being here on a Visa and having these attacks by Attorneys Generals' Office and so on, I think that it's a dang-- quite a dangerous situation for you guys personally. You know we're going through this scrutiny phase when Attorneys Generals investigate this company very thoroughly.

(Erwin) Right.

(Lynn) Now you may or may not know this but I was told by Edith that we hired a local Florida attorney to meet with - a lawyer from the Tampa Attorney General's Office regarding the subpoena TradeNet got, they sit down at lunch and the first thing out of the State Attorney's mouth is,'Oh, yeah, Erwin Annau, isn't he the guy that was involved in some kind of investigation in that MLM of California, that metals company?" Boom.

Out on the table, by the Attorney General in Florida, first origination.

That's not good.

(Erwin) No.

(Lynn) It's not good for this company, and I think with your personal situation given your Visa it's actually quite dangerous for you. That's the second major area, they may be more. Now the third, which I have some concern over as we're all, um - well, we're, and this could go on tape, we're all members of the same Church and you know the laws and regulations with our Church...

(Erwin) Umhmm.

[MD: "Umhmm" is right! Speak up, boys!] (Lynn)...so if any strenuous or, or - any kind of activity that you're involved with affects us directly and our eligibility to participate in our Church's counseling activities, spiritual activities, and we're connected with you and that we're members of the Board and co-partners.

That doesn't going to interfere actually in the business aspect but there is - we are related in some ways. So I think these are the things that are on my mind as pretty major areas.

(Erwin) Right. So again, they're turning against me, in my opinion, and like taking me off the lines is not going to remedy the situation, uh, and, uh, I would love to have this statement to be the first one that I predicted, that was wrong. I would love to be wrong. I was right several times in the last two months about things that I said and if I say it right now, that the last few active leaders that are backing the organization, you will - you have you have not seen rock bottom. The moment that you announce that I'm off the Line, at that moment in time you will lose even more people and that's just going to happen, I just wanted to have it on tape so that you know that, that I said it and that you're not surprised that that happens. And I would love to be wrong, I would wish and pray and hope that it does not happen.

(Lynn) Alright. So that's on that table. I think that that's the subject of this meeting and what we're got to get down to. That's my concern, from the CEO hat.

(Erwin) Well, there's a lot of other subjects here. Credit cards. Where are they? Are we going to accept credit cards?

(Lynn) We're working on it.

(Erwin) How long's it going to take?

(Lynn) We should be signed up this week.

(Erwin) So we can actually sell xxx credit cards. Just want to make it known that I've been talking about this for over a year. Is that known, that I have wanted credit cards and now we have them.

(Lynn) We don't have them yet.

(Erwin) Yeah, but once xxx handle...

(Lynn) See, I'd like to point out something, Erwin. Erwin, I'd like to say something right now and that is, I've heard this kind of reasoning and kind of communication from you for months...

(Erwin) Yeah?

(Lynn) ...and it is the following - and I've not heard one exception to this - that's, your involvement with the company, you alone as a single individual have done everything totally correct, and it is only the others - everyone else involved, the others - that have done all the wrong and all the bad.

(Erwin) No...

(Lynn) No, let me finish, let me finish, we're going to take turns talking here. There's a huge outpoint here, Erwin, that I don't think you're - you're - you're - and then that operating basis that you're right and everybody else, Bill Cooper, everybody else has made all the mistakes that caused the trouble for this company, and you alone have done nothing, and the fact that our supplier wants you out, the Executive Distributor Council of TradeNet wants you out, and at least from my personal experience, the group in Arkansas, a huge upline, wants you out, but that's - you have no responsibility to that. Now there's a major outpoint here, Erwin, and unless you need to stand up and let me see the little wings sprouting out of your back...

(Erwin) No, I didn't say, I didn't say that, I just wanted...see I look back over this weekend and saw what kind of decisions were not made with my agreement, or against my will, and these...

(Lynn) So Erwin, why the hell didn't you do something about it if you have such insight and foresight on how to make this company go?

(Erwin) Well, because...

(Lynn) I mean, here's the point - are you - let me ask you, are you such a wimp that you can't get anything done here to make this company go? I mean, it's curious to me. You have all the best ideas, everybody else fucks it up, and your brilliant ideas are cast aside. Don't - didn't you attend Board meetings, don't you - can't you be causative and implement some of these brilliant ideas that'll save the company?

(Erwin) Well, it looks like I can't.

(Lynn) Well maybe we should ask add another number here of incompetence, to get ideas implemented to this list. You can't have it both ways, Erwin.

(XXX) (?) So I'm not sure, you know, even what, I'd kind of like to keep it - if there are things you'd like to go over, I mean, we could go over all kinds of other...

(Erwin) There are a lot of things, but as things stand, uh...

(?) Well I'm sure is more stuff to go.

(?) OK. Go for it.

(?) OK, so did you finish what you wanted to say on those...

(Lynn) Yeah. I think that's the point of the meeting, I wanted to get that out on the table so we could cut to the chase and get right down to it.

That's what on my lines.

(?) OK. Could you just summarize that again?

(Lynn) Yeah. I - my reason for coming to this meeting is that there is a very serious situation here directly related to Erwin, in areas of PR flap with our supplier, Executive Distributor Council, and with a major group in Arkansas.

(Erwin) Gotit.

(Lynn) There is -that's the major thing that I have on my mind.

(Brian) OK.

(Lynn) That's the main thing. We have a situation here we've got to handle. We've got to salvage this company. And I think it's a liability to have that much out-PR focused on one individual in the group, especially, especially if that one individual is saying that all of those guys are somehow in a conspiracy or picks on him for no good reason, that's there no...

(Erwin) No, there's...

(Lynn) ...no responsibility on his part of going, 'Geez, what did I - maybe I did something to cause this...

(Erwin) I know what I did wrong. It sounds a little different, but I keep that to myself. I know what I did wrong. I know what -I know what I did wrong. I know that. I know it. So we can go on.

(Lynn) Really? Well I'd be interested in hearing it.

(Erwin) No.

(Brian) Alright. Um, what I observed is you have - there's two entities here in this - and the group does not - and that is you brought up some points; the only point to add to that is we don't have it here exactly but what I've been briefed on is by Eve is just the legal ramifications, and that makes me concerned, relative to what with Sylvia and the family being here and being able - need to be here, and he hasn't had the benefit of talking to his attorneys yet so he hasn't been briefed on that. I'm not privy to that so I don't know. What I know from talking to other legal sources is that a severing of connection with TradeNet, Top Marketing and CleanEarth is in order; um, it's not out of a - any animosity or a games condition but out of the actual legal rudiments. The actual legal...and that's something that youll need to get when you talk to your attorney.

(Erwin) What does it mean?

(Brian) It means that for reasons of safeguarding your ability to be here...
(Lynn) ...in the country...

(Brian) ...in the country, on an E2 Visa, taking the Green Cards just out of the picture, but just on a E2 Visa.

(Erwin) Well, that's not any...I mean, if Top Marketing has no job and does not have people on the payroll, then I don't have a company so I won't get the Visa, I don't get the logic in it.

(Brian) No, the - it's my understanding from talking to other legal resources, because I have not talked to your attorney and uh is that that would need to be replaced by something, and I don't know, I don't know if this is going to exactly coincide because you haven't had the benefit as far as I understand of talking to your attorney yet...

(Erwin) Yeah...

(Brian) ...but, um, I have not talked to him. The people I have talked to, though, because I have talked to some, uh, who are attorneys, is that it should be replaced, so it would be up to these people's responsibility, these being those who are in the company, to make sure it was replaced and it wasn't just gotten rid of because that would undercut your existing basis of your Visa...

(Erwin) I have five, six people on the payroll and I get a salary. If this relationship does not continue, these people have no job. I have to fire them.

(Brian) OK.

(Erwin) OK. Now, ifI have no income, then I cannot get my Visa extension.

(Brian) OK.

(Brian) But just taking income out at the moment (?)...

(Sylvia) Income from Top Marketing...

(Erwin) ...income from Top Marketing, and I have to have at least a couple of people on the payroll.

(?) OK. But so - if something was set up that had some income coming in, had a couple people, you would not have legal connection to Top Marketing and that would safeguard your Visa.

(Erwin) Something would need...

(Brian) That would need to be in place before Top Marketing was...because you don't take Top Marketing and go, 'Good, xxxx", you can't do that. You have to get something else set up and then a transfer has to be done, to transfer and replace your current E2 is set up is, it's based on a company, they have xxx your application to say, "We're not going to put it into this company's name", they accept it, they say, "OK, fine", they say the business.

(Erwin) I have an application, I have a xxx company that' s CleanEarth, and I've been transferring everything into CleanEarth.

[MD: speak up, Erwin! We want the financial investigators to read a nice, clear transcript!] (Brian) That's a possibility, but if I were you and this, is just my opinion...

(Erwin) ...Yup...

(Brian) ...and i was in this situation, I would truly safeguard, because my und- I may have some missing data here but my understanding are like inter-connected, CleanEarth and Top Marketing, TradeNet, and, and, if I wanted to really safeguard my family and my kids I would just - I would be ask and be granted the time to set it up, to get it operationally running, and then just cut the connection because that would safeguard me, it would safeguard me, I have a business plan, I have some kind of company that has a couple of people, and I'd have uh, some kind of - whatever, whatever has to be set up. That would be in place, though. So it was in place and operational so by the time your extension comes up, I should think it's the beginning 1998, then it's like in place, they'd accept the application, it's like not a problem. I don't know how long it would take as far as the - when you put an application, it may take a day, a week, a couple of weeks, I don't know. That is my - one - one of my main concerns, just from what I - for me personally from what I know. The best place well, not the only - well the only place from your particular case, I don't think yours, but the best place to make yourself available - this ties into my second point - is, as far as the tech and things like that, and getting things, uh - which - again, to give this as personal but just for me it would be that important is the Flag Land Base. So I would want to-make sure I don't - I have that ability.

(Erwin) What?

(Brian) To have that ability, to be here and receive services, because obviously if one gets reported, they're not going to be able to go get services somewhere. So that's, that's probably a major concern. The second concern would probably be - and I'm just thinking of things that I've thought of...I'll just wait a second...

(Brian) Um, that is sort of the first point to say, and that leads to the second point which is the situation which is part of what Lynn had said which as far as the out-PR, which is handling - you haven't had the benefit, maybe you have, I don't know if you've seen OSA yet, I don't think so, but I don't know.

(Erwin) I've seen what?

(Brian) OSA. As far as what's needed and wanted on relative to your program and stuff. Um...

(Erwin) No, I'm supposed to see them at 4:00.

(Brian) Not to mix Church and business, but some businesses are run by people involved in the Church who feel very strongly about it, and they have a moral code, and they - uh it's not illegal to have a business moral code...

(Erwin) That's true....
[MD: Bullshit. They're talking about the intelligence arm of a notorious cult intervening in the business affairs of a secular company. Of course, the word is that some of these lamers are claiming that their consultations with Ben Shaw are no different than another businessman consulting with his rabbi or priest.

What's that? You haven't seen Ben's name yet? Keep reading...]
(Brian) That's a second issue which you don't have the benefit of talking to them as yet about. But I think it's more serious than you currently estimate or imagine, I think it's very important and - that you don't - let's say you can live here in Clearwater in the area which is fine, but you're not allowed to even go on the Base for service because of whatever.

(Erwin) Who said that.

(Brirurl It's - I'm just - I - I'm just saying there's gradients. What I can tell you specifically was said, is that, uh, you're walking on thin ice. You're on, you're on thin ice right now. Um. I honestly think it's - what that means xxx think it's more serious than, well, I don't think, I know it is. I mean whenever I get requested by people to do something like that when I've got a situation to handle...

(Erwin) Yeah?

(Brian) I never - I just never would...but for me, it's for me it's that important and there is an altered importance there, in my mind.

(Erwin) I have not heard one single concrete allegation of anything that I have done major in order to harm the company other than then the leaders have decided that they don't want me and these an the very guys that are cross-sponsoring, the very guys that wanted to get rid of TradeNet, by going to the - our supplier and, uh, getting him to, to, uh, give them the products and take them away from us. I have not heard any single, one concrete thing that I have messed up, and I may have messed up on a few things, and that is something that is very interesting...

(Lynn) That's a different subject, though.

(Brian) Now let me ask you something. If you're asking that question, I can address that, Lynn may want to address that as well.

(Erwin) No, I would like to get that in writing because OSA seems to have been sort of genned in the idea that this, is the scapegoat, we (END OF FIRST SIDE OF FIRST MICROCASSETTE TAPE VERSION - DOES'NT HAVE ALL THAT THE LARGER CASSETTE HAS - GAP END INDICATED BELOW) fucked up and he's the scapegoat and he's the foreigner anyways so if we shoot him, that's...

(?) Let me clarify my last statement, then. The reason that I bring that up...

(Erwin) Yeah?

(?)...is because there's a past situation which I had never been genned in on, I do not know the specifics of other than what you've told me, but that being with - it's kind of a two - it's like a two-edged sword. On the one hand, just from a moral/ethical standpoint, that should be addressed, addressed. On a company standpoint, though, that opened up the company to more PR liability, it's more of a PR liability. There's a legal liability, and there's personally, and there's a PR liability just sitting there.

That is a serious - I mean, I consider it very serious as a PR liability.

Now, what John Collins, why he knows about this and that?, I don't know. Why he's insistent upon it is his view. But that was one of the points - a key point, that he brought up. So I don't know if that clari-, just kind of puts a little more information regarding the last point, why I bring that up. Because it does directly relate to the company.

Now, when - if you look at the members of the group here, uh, specifically Bill and Alberto, you need to address to them and find out - this, is just mine - just addressing this to you, because you asked me at one point, you said 'Well, do they want me out? Do they want me out?". I'm not in a position to say that. That's something that they should say, and if so, why? xxx.

(Erwin) There hasn't been anything substanti-, substantiated on the table.

(?) OK, well I'm just saying - if they want to address that...

(Erwin) That's something that xxx - it goes beyond this meeting - you see, it's right now it's pointless to talk about it, because the decision has been made and with the supplier on our throat...

(?) It's not just the supplier on our throat, i want to clarify that.

(Erwin) Well...

(?) ...in my view, but Lynn may want to add to that.

(Erwin) And the EDC hasn't made the decision...

(?) It's not just the EDC.

(Erwin) Well, that's enough.

(?) Well, no, no, not really.

(Lynn) I think that's a key issue that needs to be addressed, Erwin, I mean, somehow as a lightening rod, you've attracted the ire and upset of our supplier who is now demanding that you move off the lines, from the Executive Distributor Council representing, as they were, some of the most successful Distributors in TradeNet, unanimously want to see you off the lines, and I'm just talking about personally encountering Julia Thier and what she had to say and a few other of the people - others that were xxx.

I've heard rumors of a lot more, but that situation was brought about. Why isn't that the same with him? Or with him? Or somebody else?

(Erwin) Read Simon Bolivar. It's right there.

(Lynn) Yeah, but Erwin...

(Erwin) It's right there in Simon Bolivar.

(Lynn) I'd like to indicate you need to take a look to see if you had anything to do with causing the out-PR on yourself and this company. Just a tiny little bit - did you fuck up at all? Usually a person fucks up, and I don't mean some backhand fuckup Like 'didn't get rid of them at the right time...

(Erwin) No,no...

(Lynn) ... - no, something that you did to cause this heat on this company. There's got to be something.

(Erwin) The heat is caused by the two basic laws of a Network Marketing organization. Number One, pay the correct check to the correct person on time, Number Two, ship the correct product to the correct person on time.

(On time??) That is why the situation's right now.

(Lynn) Tnat's why John Collins is...

(Erwin) Of course! Because that's why our Distributors are upset and they have downloaded their upset onto John Collins until he said "that's it".

(Lynn) Now does that explain....Chaz Jacobs, that dog won't hunt. That is not what is - that is not what the main thing.

(Erwin) So that is only - you say our problem is not caused by seven months of tens of thousands of incorrectly or not issued checks, by tens of thousands of Distributors incorrectly placed in the computer...

(Lynn) No, I didn't say that.

(Erwin) ...by thousands and thousands of complaints against - uh, about shipping, the situation's not caused by that because - it was caused by some PR flaps that I may have made by saying the wrong thing at the wrong time.

(Lynn) No, that isn't what I said. What I said, Erwin, is that John Collins wants you gone or he's not going to ship product to us, the EDC wants you gone or there's threat xxx, xxx Julia Thier.

(Erwin) I totally know that.

(Lynn) Are you telling...

(Erwin) I want to know what you think is the reason for that?

(Lynn) I think it's...

(Erutin) They need a target. Do you know what I mean?

(Lynn) Erwin, let me tell you something.

(Erwin) Right now I'm the target.

(Lynn) And Erwin, you are the perfect one. You know why? Because you fuck up. You promise things that can't be delivered, you go offlines, you create dev-t, and you pull in - you pulled in these attacks. Why do you think John Collins is up in arms at you? He's a pretty well-trained guy.

I'll tell you various things. Bragging at money and new cars, and all this stuff when the Profit Sharing is down, I get reports back on this, bragging it up, it's like a PR fiasco. This individual and many, many reports like this, Erwin.

(Erwin) Well, you see this, is already a done deal and over with; I just want to know what your viewpoint is, why this company has fallen statistics.

(?) Now wait a minute, you say it's a done deal and over with...what's a done deal and over with? This splitting up, this disconnection? Is this what you're referring to?

(Erwin) Is there any other choice? Are you not giving me another choice.

(?) I don't feel there is a choice...

(Erwin) See? So as xxx over with...

(?) I just feel for the greatest good. And if I didn't care about yourself and Sylvia and your kids, I would just say,'Fuck him. Just kick - just have him sue and well sue him back and blah, blah...". That isn't the case. I think it's the greatest good. Why do I think it is? Because it covers a number of Dynamics. And I think it - but, you know, I don't know if I can talk to you more and make it clearer, but I think it is an optimum solution. There are legal, production and PR reasons for it. If, for example, you need - you want - you need assistance from these guys as far as, like Top Marketing is a mess. OK, that's an example. You want these guys' assistance on that, you should listen and communicate about it, that's my suggestion. And communicate about it to say,'Look, uh, that mess is a mess, it was under my care and it's a mess and it's now this and this...", you know I mean...

(Erwin) You know, you know, this discussion would go totally different if there was a team of friends or people that I believe to be friends, saying 'Listen, Erwin, we are in a grave situation, we're all messed up and you know what? You're not a target. And I think it's better if you move off the lines; we're going to help you wherever we can and we will straighten it out because it's better that you go off, just that eases xxx, buys us enough time to get a company started", because you know who's going to be the next target?

(?) I can agree...

(Erwin) ...xxx going to be your next target.

(?) I agree. Yeah. I agree.

(Erwin) xxx going to turn around and, and, and I have not have not heard any of that, I have only hear that I'm wrong, I'm wrong, I am wrong, and everybody else is right, and that's why the discussion's there. I don't...

(Alberto) That is precisely the point, what you just said.

(?) xxx (Alberto) You took my words out of my mouth.

(?)...words?

(Alberto) Exactly what he's saying, we made him wrong, because for whatever reason, the reasons are not important, the fact is that he's the target. Period. Legal, EDC's, um, our supplier's, for whatever reason, it's like you're bad news. And we want to help you but we can't help you if you continue to be out there.

(?) I have a slight...

Lots of cross-voices (?) xxx a second? This can be a heated subject. What you said, I absolutely agree with. What you just said, and I think you'd have to rise above it. I have noticed a lot of HE & R from both ends. You unfortunately have a habit of - you have this bad habit, Erwin, when you talk to somebody, when it comes out, they're wrong, so that - and it's hard to control, I mean it's hard to get over that, you know?, but it has created some HE & R, but I think youll find - at least I know this independently, and this may become heated so it doesn't come through, but I think you will find, uh, Alberto, Lynn, Bill and myself as amongst your friends.

You know...but it's hard...I almost feel that I have to take a twelve gauge shotgun and shoot it through your head sometimes to go "OK, Look..."

[MD: I assume that he was speaking strictly metaphorically.

Probably.] (Erwin) So, OK, how does it look like? Good, I go off the lines. No, if I don't have a company to do the Visa with, and I don't have work that gets money in the door, uh, I have to leave January 18th.

(?) I have a suggestion on that. Want me to address that first? I don't want to cut your comm. I mean, I could address that in a second.

(Erwin) OK.

(?) I should go?

(Erwin) Yeah.

(?) OK. On that point there, um, this, is something you have to go over with your attorney; from what my homework with different attorneys is, is that you get something in place - my insistence to these guys is,'Look, you cannot get rid of Top Marketing":. Regardless of any HE & R xxx because if any HE & R gets committed, say,'Look, that's fine, Top Marketing cannot just go, because it undercuts..."

(Erwin) But for the Distributors it is gone.

(?)I know.

(Lynn) For you we're talking about - for you and your xxxx.

(?) For you personally.

(Erwin) I don't know (?) (?) Exactly. But my understanding of attorneys, it's a good idea to get rid of it, OK, line, but it has to be replaced. Now that might take a week or two, uh, or what's your name, Eve?, to organize something else. Now as far as - now, that - that's my answer to that point. That first point. On as far as what do you do for money? Um, that's a good question. That's something of - for discussion, because there are sits. There's obligations with this building. There's obligations - there's Top Marketing. There's various things. There's staff unpaid over at Top (Lynn) xxx at this company (?) Pardon me?

(Lynn) There's the liabilities on TradeNet itself that exist.

(?) Liabilities...there's the future estimates of what the legal and PR costs are going to be based on all that's happened in the past, which everybody's contributed to in some way, by not - either not handling, or, or, or not getting legal ruds in earlier, on an earlier product or whatever it is. OK, there's that.

What's fair? What's ethical? What's right? What's wrong? OK, my concern is, good - you need to work out a way so that you do have that, either - that's up for discussion. You have something that can get you - assist you, and not just - if you didn't have friends, they would just say, 'Good, see ya later, go xxx" type of thing...

(Erwin) So, what's - what's the deal? What's the deal?

(Bill) I'd just like to state something. There's two things that are - you know, there's the xxx and there's ATG and there's the EDC and there's all this stuff, but really, for me, the most significant thing is the legal allegations that are going on, you have a criminal charge in Florida - it's criminal and from what I understand about the INS, you get involved with that, you're gone. Period. I mean, it, it, it - it's already been sent to us, it's a legal facility (?), legal thing, you xxx fraud.

That's a felony. If they even so much as smell that, I mean, for me, you know Erwin, you may have thought I fucked up but it's not real relevant because it's business, there's something greater at stake for you and for you, because if I understand this correctly and I've gotten the story from xxxx, that if you get deported, you have to go with him, so do your two children. The minute you hit Austria, you lose your two kids and you go to jail.

[MD: That's right, folks, it's game of HardBall, $cientology-style!

Not often a spectator sport, but DAMN, ain't it entertaining?!?] (Erwin) So? I don't necessarily go to jail.

(Bill) No...

(Erwin) There's a xxx possibility.

(?) xxx (Erwin) And just to clear that thing up, because he doesn't understand, you even in the United States have the same law, if you are an IRS audit - in the middle of an IRS audit, you go to another country and you set up another operation there, and you come back to Aus-, to America, and they are - and they think that you owe them money, you go to jail.

(?) Right. Correct.

(Erwin) With no conviction yet, you just go to jail on the grounds that you might leave the country again and never come back.

(?) Sure.

(Erwin) That's the reason. And that is something that anybody can xxx xxx; I've done nothing in Austria that's any grounds for a judge to put me to jail, but they can put me to jail just merely on the fact that I might go abroad again and never come back.

(?) Actually I didn't know that.

(Erwin) OK.

(Bill) That is a factor. So I see that as senior; and that, that - even that isn't the most senior thing, because I happen to know, because I just - I make it my business to know what's going on with the Church xxx, it's always been my - my - one of my purposes is to be strongly, have a very strong communication line with the Church because my spiritual freedom, your spiritual freedom, her spiritual freedom, their spiritual freedom, these two guys' spiritual freedom and your spiritual freedom is far more important than anything that we're doing and talking about today.

It just is. And I would sacrifice this all, I would turn it over right now, I would nuke it, I'd send everybody home, lay off a stick of dynamite, I'd blow away this whole fucking town to save that. [!!!] And right now I happen to know that your future, your spiritual future, is on the line here. Make no mistake. I mean, I just keep my ear to the ground and I just listen to what's going on, you know, and when I go to these business meetings and they pull me aside and they say, "What's going on with Erwin? Where the fuck is he? How come he's not doing his thing? He didn't desert us, heh heh?" And I'm like...

[MD: Bill Cooper, ladies and gentlemen! Eminently quotable, no?]
(Erwin) What business meeting?

(Bill) It's the downtown business meeting, that volunteer thing that we signed up for. And of course OSA's there and then Ben Shaw (?) takes us...

(Erwin) ...two weeks? Because I was on tour.

(Bill) I know that. They weren't asking about that. They were asking about your OSA program, you know, and, and because I know you and I know how you operate, you know, I have no doubt, I have absolutely no doubt that the statement that Brian says is absolutely true. And if he gets declared, guess what, can't talk to him. If you do, you get declared. And I think it's dangerous. I really think that's a danger. Not only that, if you get declared, I can't talk to you, you know, so there's that. I mean, all the rest of this, is just, I mean, we don't need to talk about anything else. If you guys get deported, I'm going to feel like shit, because I didn't do something about it, you know. We can help you and I have absolutely zero animosity, as a matter of fact, Erwin, I'm probably your best friend on this planet. I have - my ARC is not demoted at all, I completely understand where you're at, I understand how you operate;

sometimes I find it amusing, sometimes I admire it, but it's perfectly irrelevant. This, is not a First Dynamic thing. This, is Third Dynamic.

When I sat across the table from John Collins and he laid it on the line, he said, 'Bill, I'm pissed at you. You know why I'm pissed at you? Because that - the 100,000 people out there know you're Scientologists. You guys are fucking up."

End of Side One of first large tape Side Two, first large tape (?) ...that don't say "LRH".

(Alberto) It was already there. It was a Catch 22.

(?) I don't give a shit.

(?) No... (THIS PART NOT ON MICROCASSETTE TAPE - GAP ENDS WITH NEXT SENTENCE) (Bill) Let me finish my comm, please. And I was personally pissed at you for orchestrating or allowing to orchestrate and then being so, so, blindly naive that it was OK to implicate LRH in what we were doing, playing with this game at the stages it's at, because we were in very grave danger back then and we've never really gotten out of that danger;

as a matter of fact, it's gotten worse. And then you just associated LRH with that and that was a big mistake.

(Sylvia) We invited a WISE Consultant, what's his name?, xxx (Etutin) They were talking about LRH data all the time.

(Sylvia) It was open.

(Erwin) So we shouldn't have invited Mike.

(Alberto?) Who did that? Who did that?

(Sylvia) What's his name?

(Bill) I didn't invite the guy.

(Erwin) Tom Cummins?

(Sylvia) Oh, no, no, not Tom Cummins. The speaker..

(2) Who, Myron Finley?

(Sylvia) Myron.

(?) Going back to...

(?) We're still xxx on the point...

(?) You guys can duke it out later on.

(?) OK. But if you understand John Collins, how he felt about that, where John Collins is coming from. Go ahead.

(Bill) Yeah. He was - that was his upset. He didn't give a shit about these - all that shit can be handled. It all might take awhile...I mean, the EDC is really pissed at you, and they're not pissed at you because you fucked up, they're pissed at you because of how you communicate. That's it. If you look at the common denominator to why all these people - and Brian and I sat at your house one day, was it you and me?, we tried to illustrate - no, it was me and you!, we tried to illustrate to you that your communication invalidates people just by the very nature of it...

(Erwin) My communication brought 100,000 people into this organization.

(Bill) It brought some people into this organization...

(Erwin) Isn't it interesting?

(Bill) It brought some people, but I just don't agree that that brought all of it.

(Erwin) Well, then, this is good, because that gives me hope.

(Bill) Oh, good. But anyways, my point - the point of my conversation is, is that with the negative turn that the AG things have gone - you know, we've always known this was going to come, we didn't know that it was going to get so serious, and the thing that makes it dangerous for us is we have no money. That' s what makes it dangerous. Especially this Florida thing. Now the Florida thing became criminal. Now, that totally changed the flavor of it. The minute it goes from administrative to criminal, you're in trouble. That wasn"t anticipated nor expected. Also, the fraud allegations from Utah; Oregon's thinking down the same line, you know, it doesn't take a whole lot for...

[MD: SOMEbody's OT pOwERz must be on the fritz...] (Erwin) Alright.

(Bill) ...someone to say,'Well, Erwin Annau's implicated with this;

sorry, Erwin, we're not going to approve your Visa E2 - your E2 extension", or We're not going to allow...

(Erwin) So how do you want to prevent that from happening?

(Bill) Well, I'll mention this. This, is what I would do because I hold family and wife and children and Bridge much higher than the game that we're playing here, is I would do whatever it took to secure that. If I were you, I would dump this game so fast it'd make your head spin. Because I happen to know you have a little bit of money here and there, and I know you need to have a Visa card - a E2 Visa, I know that you're a smart guy and I know that you're capable, and if I was you, if it were me, I'd have another game going by Friday. I really would. And that would be my God's honest truthful thing, because nothing is more important to me than freedom to being with my family or my spiritual freedom. Nothing! This game TradeNet goes away tomorrow, you know what? I don't really gjve a shit because you know what? I know I can do it again. And I know you have the same viewpoint, i just don't - it just - that's why my havingness is so in on it, you know? Somebody comes in to me and says,'Janet Reno the Attorney General for the US is coming with guns!" and my havingness is in on it because I know first of all it's probably bullshit, but even if the shit does hit the fan, and the company goes down, I'm not going to die.

See, I'm - I'm an American and they can't take that away. I can't be deported. I can be thrown in jail for a little while, which even I doubt, I don't see too many people that - we're not actively engaging in crime;

we have made mistakes, but we're not criminals, you know. And I happen to believe to a certain degree that the Justice System will not punish me for being a criminal. I don't believe that. Right? Just because of my own personal ethics. I'm on the Bridge, I'm getting ses- auditing, I went to session this morning and I don't sacrifice it for anything. I don't care how hot it gets.

[MD: It gets pretty hot in the chain locker on the Freewinds, Billy.]
(Erwin) OK. So, what is the solution?

(Bill) Well, the solu- I mean, my, my thing, my, my only, I mean, if, if, if you're wise, you take care of family and your future first. And the only way you can safely do that is to cleanly cut... I don't see another - I mean really, you'd literally have to make a big stink of it like, you know, uh, you know, "I can't associate with myself with what's going on, and I uh, really want to do the right thing so I'm separating from this group and leaving." You know, you've got to think of what a strategy you're going to say if you ever get called on this game. When the INS Inspector says to you, he says, "Oh, Erwin, we've got all this shit on you on TradeNet, what the hell's going on her?" you've got to say, "Well, I gave it my best shot and it didn't go real good, so I uh, I uh, I, I turned it over and went off to do something else, and this, is what I did and it turned out great! And now I've got 100 employees that are my employees and buh-buh-buh-buh", you know what I mean? You've got to have a strategy of how you're going to get your Green Card. I mean, I see that - that Green Card for you, personally, is like of paramount importance. I mean, what could be more important than it?

(Erwin) So what's the solution? I mean, I'm - I'm the Treasurer, but I was never - I never had the opportunity to fulfill that function...

(Bill) I think that can be covered. You, you were registered as the Treasurer...

(Erwin) Yeah?

(Bill) ...but because you never did any functions as it...

(Erwin) Yeah...

(Bill) You know, I don't see a problem there, you know, and...

(Sylvia) Signed some tax paper.

(Erwin) Some tax papers is all I signed.

(?) That's not a big deal. Because those aren't big liabilities. And there was no wrong-doing in those areas, you know we always paid our Sales Tax.

You know what I mean, that's not a big deal. The only thing - really the only stumbling block that I see is this building. I mean Brian originated that he's - I don't know if you know this, but he's done a lot of Real Estate dealings and he thinks that currently - should you say this or should I say it?

[MD: Now EVERYONE knows it! Wheeeeeeeeee!] (Brian) No, an assignment could be done.

(Erwin) What do you mean?

(Bill) Within a week you could have it signed; first of all, you have to hnd someone with the same credit as you will swap out and get you off the paper. Because the liability for you is if this company goes belly-up, we have to pay for this building, right?

(Brian) And that's the real Liability, but...

(Bill) And that's the realliability. But...

(Brian) That's the real liability. But having said that, if I understand it correctly, um, I could get somebody to do that, come in and qualify and I'm assuming that it could get - what you be paid for it. That's an assumption I made.

(Bill) That's an assumption.

(Brian) OK. I need to make sure that's clear, because if that is clear, then to help with your, um, need for funds, then you could get reimbursed for whatever you put down.

(Bill) Well, we put 300,000 down.

(Brian) Not individually.

(Bill) No, no. Collectively. The corporation actually put it down.

(Female) yeah.

(Bill) So if you had to dump the building in a hurry, we could probably dump it for 700,000 and just take a big loss on it. I mean that would be obviously the worst case scenario. There aren't any qualified buyers that I know of. I know that the city...

(?) OK...

(Cross-talk, couldn't hear it) (Jennifer) xxx (Bill) Well, we don't know that. That guy is not exactly what I would consider a reliable terminal...

(Erwin) Well I heard that there's the lease money that's coming in, uh covers...

(Bill) No, here's the deal, the mortgage is $8,475 a month, we get $5,000 in rent, the power bill is $3,500. Plus miscellaneous, you know, so you figure $4,500 a month utilities, so it's $4,500 and 84 - that's 12, 13 thousand and wetre got $5,000 coming in so it's a liability of $7,000 a month.

(Erwin) Xxx.

(Bill) $7,800 dollars a month.

(Erwin) Umhmm.

(Bill) That's a lot. That's why we could never rent out the space. It's not possible to rent out the space and get that kind of rent, because we were only paying $3,500 in rent...

(Jennifer) It's only $9 a square foot.

(Bill) But I think that we could handle that, i think that - I just have a knowingness if you will, that I think Brian can sort that out...what we're going to do is find someone with an equal credit rating as you have, and go to the bank, he signs on as the principal, you sign off as the principal, then you're absolved of that debt. Which another - there's another - bankruptcy, that's another thing you could get your Green Card declined is if you have a bankruptcy on your lines. So that - that, that, that for me, that's the toughest one, the rest of it's just a matter of you know, we've got 2.5 million dollars worth of debts that need to be addressed, we've got creditors knocking on our door and the stat scene is not good. So you know - me, for me, no matter what, if this company goes belly-up, all those people are going to get paid back with interest, if I have to personally work for the next ten years of my life to do it, so, you know, again, I really don't have anything to lose, you know, I have - I would have a mega-condition assignments of the universe >from OSA I'm sure to be able to be eligible to be on services, and I'd
have a bankruptcy that I'd have to handle, but I'm not going to get deported and I'm not get thrown in jail. Different order of magnitude. I mean it's just a different order of magnitude and I'm willing to - I'm willing to assume some of this liability to ensure that you and your family can stay in this country.

(Erwin) Now, I have to build up another income source right now, I have monthly bills of $20,000.

(Bill) You should get rid of those monthly bills, you don't have to have them...

(Erwin) No, then I have to get rid of my home.

(Bill) Well, even if the worst case scenario, frankly, Erwin, if I had to get rid of my home tomorrow, I'd - it's nice but it ain"t that nice. It's a piece of MEST. You know, and I think that you could probably work out a way to - I mean, because you have something now that you do have before, you do have some capital. And I know. I know you've got capital. You know, I know - I know what you invested in ATG and you could liquidate those stocks.

(Erwin) Yeah, and it has it down to $3.15. Down from (to?) 4.

(Bill) Take a loss on it. It's money, you know, and you can walk into a business and buy it for $50,000 with 10 employees and handle your Visa requirement, and it's handled. You've got $20,000 a month FP, that's pretty high but I bet you could shave it down to probably 10 - 12 without too much trouble. You might have to do without some of the luxuries. I personally don't have a very high FP Number One, xxx I never wanted to do that. I have two used cars, I have a house payment. That's it, that's all I have. And Zack's school. That's 5,000 bucks a month. (?) I can do that. I can get a job making that much.

(Erwin) Well, there are contracts regarding the royalties and there are signed contracts.

(Bill) Yup, there're signed contracts, and one of the things that you've got to look at it what your strategy going to be? What do you see is most important. Do you want - is it money that you see most important? Is your royalties that you see most important? I mean, if I may speak from I speak >from my personal viewpoint, I mean, the money thing doesn't get me out of
bed in the morning. You know what I mean? And I don"t think it's necessarily a senior purpose for you either, Well, if I know you like to have lots of things, lots of money, there's nothing wrong with that, but you know, the... as far what I've - I've done a Little checking into this myself and as far as what I can see, is like if you're linked, if there's any line to you from this game, continuing on, you're it - (if) you're getting a major royalty, if you're one of the - in this country, it's not who owns it, it's not who's in, who's the Board of Directors, it's not - it's who's making the money, where's the money go?

(Erwin) You see..

(Lynn) xxx, Erwin, on this royalty thing, and I haven't even originated this to Bill, but this company is in deep shit right now with crashing statistics, we're laying off staff, we've got back bills mounting up, and the next Board meeting we have, I'm going to have something on the table that these royalties on the front end, you guys have got to shitcan this...

(?) Yeah, I was going to bring that up...

[MD: And now we have the pep talk from the eloquent Lynn Irons] (Lynn) ...and fucking route off like she's in here, he's in here, he's in here, she's in here, and we've got to go to work and make this fucking company roll. We cannot have guys taking something on the front end and leave it to the staff and a few managers to make the fucking company work, it's Like everybody's got to pick up - everybody's got to cognite they're in this goddamned boat and they'd better pick up an oar, because they're here on very much the same or more terms than anyone else.

So I see with the financial condition this royalty thing is like it ain't gonna fly, it ain't gonna fucking work. Alberto's already originated giving up whatever royalties he had and going with what is his FP Number One? And I - I haven't mentioned it to Bill, but I think he has a willingness there...I mean, you're asking...you know, we're in a desperate situation and we need funds. I mean, I know...

(?) Desperate...

(Lynn) ...Bill took some of his funds to just make the Profit Sharing.

Some tax setasides on Some money he'd taken out. And then he handled Profit Sharing. So we're going to the mattresses here, so to speak, I mean, it's balls - it up against the fucking wall, we're either going to bail this fucker out or it's gonna go down and it's gonna go down hard and loud and in the media and weke all going to be doing our senrices over at OSA because we made a spectacle of LRH Administrative Technology because of our fucking out-ethics. So that is the situation. So if you're lookng at what can you get out of this organization?, should you leave, forget it. What you probably should get is probably a bill for a half a million dollars in liabilities, if you look at what the current value of this company is and your, your participation in it, you're looldng at probably a bill for half a million dollars, that'd be cheap. That's the truth of it, this, is no exaggeration.

[MD: Inspiring, isn't he, folks?]
(?) He's not kidding, the financial situation is not good.

(?) What about Top? Did you guys agree to, I'm just interjecting this because I have a question, you guys took over your liabilities for that, correct or no?

(Lynn) I didn"t sign anything to take over the Liabilities.

(Bill) No, but, you know, depending on, it would be solely dependent on the solution that we work out to help Erwin out on you know, just because -not because I don't think it wasn't his responsibility it was his responsibility, but I want to see you guys stay in the country. Period.

And I want to see you stay on lines. And I saw how you were winning on it, and I know you need to get through your OSA thing. And that's more important, because you're a senior Scientologist, you will be a senior Scientologist and you are worth helping, period. So you know I'm willing to help you out on the Top Marketing thing. I'm just a good enough finance and business manager that I know we can work it out. I am. And well just - it's gotta be done.

(Alberto) Bill, what I wanted to say originally was that I consider myself just as much of Erwin's friend as you are. That's what I wanted to tell him, that I'm his friend and that's all, and if he fucked up, he fucked up or whatever, I just wanted to tell him I have the same...

(Bill) You can tell him.

(Alberto) I'm your friend just like Bill and I want to help you as much as I can and I don't want to see you guys leave. I mean, the same thing he was saying, I'm going, shit, I don't say things like he does, but basically, uh, uh, I don't want to see you guys go, to me - same thing.

To me, going up the Bridge is the most important thing. If we lose that, we lose - what's the use? Nothing is senior to that. And just - the little thing, well, everything he said, you know, basically.

(Lilly) I would like to say something. And Erwin, I see that when you were xxx about your different viewpoints that need to be addressed, you answered "What is the solution?" I think that everybody can say something, that they can pitch in with ideas, but the solution is all you're the only one that have it. You need to make a decision. It is yours. It's not what he thinks is good for you, or what he thinks is good. It's only within you. Nobody else can make this decision for you.

(Erwin) But there are issues. And the issues are - let's think positive here, let's think that the company does not go down. OK?

(?) OK.

(Erwin) Now I will have to apologize because I was wrong, and I would love to do that, nothing that I would love more than that. Uh, if the company does not go down...

(Bill) Let me just clarify that, because the company is down. It's not a matter of...

(Erwin) Well, it's still salvageable, it's salvageable if you, I mean, I've given you some advice of what to do and how to do it and how to get, get active Distributors again and how to cut the other ones off, uh, and International Sales is probably the only thing that's going to salvage it.

Out-of-country sales...

(Bill) Yeah, but we're starting from scratch right now, and no matter what, we're looking at a serious liability. And see, remember when I said youte got to get the significance of this point, we don't have the money to fight the AGs right now. That's the danger for you. If we were in screaming Affluence and had tons of money, most of all, John Collins probably wouldn't be pissed off at us; you, would get the Cram Off - get crammed on PR and sort out that bug you have on pissing people off, and that would be the handled, you know. They're all handleable, but the problem is, Erwin, is it's all come to a pike...it's all...

(Erwin) At the same time...

(Bill) ...point. It's like, all the guns are trained on us but not only that, but they're shooting. And the bullets are flying at us.

(?) And UPS is on strike.

(Bill) UPS is on strike, we owe UPS $300,000. You know, I mean, it's just like wow! The fucking universe has opened up on us. And you know, so...

(Erwin) So what happens if we pull through this?

(Lynn?) Regarding what?

(Erwin) Regarding my participation.

(Jennifer) He's asking for money.

(Erwin) You see, I built - I - created the game and it did go well as long as I was on the road...

(Lynn) Maybe we should give him the game. Maybe he should take TradeNet.

With all its liabilities, prosecutions, twelve AGs going at it (Bill) I thought of that - he can have the whole fucking thing! I did think of that this morning.

(Lynn) You can stay here and within a month you'd be fucking deported and lose your kids...

(Bill) I thought of that, too...

(Lynn) ...and be decl- - and have a bankruptcy and be declared. That's an alternative.

(Brian) Because, see, Erwin, it is, the thing is that ATG doesn't want to do business with you. And...

(?) I think xxx more honest. Why don't you talk from your heart and xxx his heart as well? I mean that's part of it. And Lilly xxx.

(?) Oh, absolutely.

(?)...absolutely.

(Bill) I know what he's getting at, John Collins has got a personal thing on him, he personally doesn't like you, and it's personal. But beyond that, there's business issues that he has to back him up, and at this point, judging by the reaction and...you've got a particular opinion of yourself, how you've grown the downline and I've spent the past few years handling people's originations on like, they don't like you. Now you're on - you're the front-line guy, and...

(Enuin) Well, that's good, then that's probably gonna mean that the stats go up the moment I'm gone.

(Bill) Possibly. Actually some originations are coming from the field that that's the case.

(Erwin) So that's good. And even though this is just a black PR caper, if it helps, then...

(Bill) I just want you to know that I've made the decision that it's personally - I have remained your greatest proponent throughout this whole game, up until the last weekend. Even these guys didn't hear word one, even her - didn't hear word one of negative out of my mouth...

[MD: If I'm not mistaken, Cooper is engaged to Kemp, so that's probably the "her" he means.] (Erwin) What was last weekend?

(Bill) Last weekend was when I talked to John Collins. So not only talked to John Collins, but talked to the EDC, I talked to the Profit Sharing Leaders, I talked to John Collins and Jim DiCastro; uh, I had a brief meeting with Brian, and then I came home and talked to Lynn on a phone call on the weekend, and last weekend it became very apparent to me that it was no longer the greatest good for the greatest number of Dynamics for you to be involved. ATG is disaffected, EDC is disaffected, uh, a large portion of our Distributor base is, Donny walker's entire downline, uh, uh, Julia Thier's entire downline, Bjorg Schmidt (?)...

(Erwin) So what do they do if I resign? What do they do?

(Lynn) Well, they're willing to find out, Erwin, let's leave it at that.

(Bill) Yeah.

(Lynn) They're willing to, they're willing to...they've named you as a negative PR factor associated with TradeNet for whatever reason...

(?) Yeah, for whatever reason...

(Lynn) ...for whatever reason, it's like..

(Bill) So anyway, let me just finish. So then there's that; then, enter in when I get home, the first thing I get nailed with is the Florida AG says to our attorney point blank, Erwin Annau is investig- - involved in an investigation, a criminal investigation against IMTC.

(Erwin) I wasn't involved in it, they...

(Bill) Involved - I didn't say you were named in it. He said 'involved".

(Erwin) ...they asked Distributors of IMTC to, to indict Mr. whatever, to give data to, about, about Phillips (?)...

(Bill) Right. Right. But a little string pulling wouldn't take too much to find out that you're our lead Distributor here and that can open up to a whole other can of worms. It's just not a good thing to be associated with that. Then, you've got the thing in Germany - in Austria, rather. You've got all that flap that anyone ever dug that up, oh ho, man. What a PR flap that would be. Wanna talk about a liability. Let me tell you, these guys are digging and they're looking.

[MD: ...and finding.] (Erwin) So let's look at the xxx, I mean you're giving me all these reasons...

(Bill) Let me finish. I'm just telling you what I got dumped on my plate last weekend...

(Erwin) Uh,huh...

(Bill) ...when I made the decision that it was no longer the greatest good for the greatest number of Dynamics. Then I get back and I find out that you haven"t been doing your OSA program for the satisfaction of, what was his name?

(Female) Stan. (Sam?) (Bill) Stan? And you're on thin ice. And that was the exact phrase, that you're on thin ice. And I'm "Oh, man, that's just great". We've got all these factors and I look at this and I go, "OK, good, yeah there's TradeNet, that's one thing, that's a game, and then there's Erwin and Sylvia staying in this country and going free and that's quite another game". And it is, it's just the greatest good for the greatest number of dynamics. Period. There's nothing else. That's just it. I mean, you have the utmost confidence in your ability, if you're, if, you know, you did this game, you can do another game. And I suggest you don't do MLM, you do a game that's probably maybe...like, maybe you can train, be an MLM trainer. You know, who knows? I don't know, I don't care. But the fact of the matter is, is that it had to just come that the whole universe is just Like been whew! It's really quite amazing, and, you know, and I have no sympathy for you because you did something to pull it in. My big concern is Sylvia and the two kids. And I know that she wants to go up the Bridge and I know that - I can't even imagine what would happen to those two gjrls if you went back and they were to go with their father. They would be two of the most miserable little girls on the planet. You know what I mean? I just don't want that to happen.

(Erwin) OK, so what's the solution?

(?) What did you say, Lilly, about that?

(Lilly) It is within you. You are the ones that bring the solutions, because it is your life. These are your Dynamics on the line. And you are the only one that can make the decisions.

(Erwin) You see, the problem is when I'm not any more involved, uh, I can do that, but then I need to be...

(?) Do you have suggestions?

(Erwin) Well, if, if I'm not involved, then it must be made in writing that I'm not responsible for what this company's going through.

(Bill) Well that's something I think that can be arranged...

(Erwin) ...and...

(Bill) And part of the plan, Erwin, is to make sure that you guys stay here.

(Erwin) OK.

(Bill) ...and are legally protected..

(?) ...get deported anyway.

(Erwin) No.

(Brian) However we do it, it's got to be done in a way that you stay.

You should be held harmless, as they call it, from management decisions made from this point forward...

(?) Exactly.

(Brian) ...There should be some kind of cooperative, uh, statement so that he doesn't get thrown to the wolves in any kind of legal suits, he needs to have some protection on that, he doesn't be held responsible; he also doesn't get his name dragged through the mud with different publics and stuff; I mean there are certain things that are valid, um, and that xxx be done, um; that's part of the reason I wrote this exchange thing, is so the HE & R just comes off this whole thing, we look at the actual constructive things that need to be done.

Some cross talk, didn't get (Lynn) ...with a public statement xxx blah blah. You know, you just write it up and that's it.

(?) You both can just write it up right here, yeah.

(Lynn) You just write it up and that's it.

(Alberto) In a PR way.

(Bill) But that PR message is also going to be designed to ensure that it aids your E2 Application. The Application. So it's gotta be designed that it doesn"t drag your, it's gotta be worded win-win, but show if it to the INS someday if you have to.

(Brian?) It doesn't say...it says something that's acceptable to them.

(?) Exactly right.

(Lynn) An acceptable truth.

(?) Right.

(Brian) And it's either he has gone off onto consulting, or - this, is something that probably if it's OK with you, I'd need to get your OK or I could Liaise with Eve on, if she's working - as I understand it, she's like your manager...

(Lynn) ...INS attorney, xxx (Bill) We could work with their attorney and it could be a cooperative thing.

(Sylvia) I have a question. What would - what would Flag think about when Erwin resigns or when he gets off the line at TradeNet?, because he created part of it, or he created whatever, he was a creator...

(Erwin) And I'm responsible for it...

(Sylvia) ...and then he gets off the line and he's not able to pull it through anymore.

(Brian) Well that should be stated, that he's not held responsible for any management decisions. Is that what you mean?

(Sylvia) Well, yeah, no...

(Brian?) Is that what you mean? I'm not addressing...?

(Sylvia) No, my point is (Erwin) OSA will say 'Well, if you're out of there, then you can't, you can't make it go right".

(Bill) No, no. Not so. Because I believe - because we keep Ben abreast of everything that's going on. I don't personally, Janet does, Edith does, Brian's giving reports, Lynn's got a comm line that's real good to the Church, he talks to Danielle and it gets to OSA and there's a very - there's a lot of comm, so Ben knows exactly what's going on. He knows about the AGs, he knows - management's shitting bricks, actually that you're involved in this; I don't think that - correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not the guy that's on the line but correct me if I'm wrong, I think that Ben also believes it's the greatest good for the greatest number of Dynamics...

[MD: Gee, Bill, I wonder how Ben feels about your Ethics now that this statement is on record with the Attorney General?]
(Erwin) I don't know, haven't talked to him.

(?) If various PR...

(Brian) No, I could tell you what exactly Ben said. Ben said the best thing Erwin could do right now is he could just work full time on his program and just do that full time, that would probably take him, he said it might take him as much as six months. That was just Ben's itsa to me. He said, "Whatever it is, he just takes it full time. He takes care of all this stuff".

(Erwin) I need the OK to create another income source. Full time is good.

Xxx So, so, (?) Yeah, that should be...

(Erwin) I'll talk to him about it. So, so, what I want to know is, is, I can put the shares in trust with somebody, they don't need to have be in my name, and I mean my question is what happens if we pull it through.

(Bill) OK, let me say something about that. So if we pull it through, and everybody busts their ass...

(Erwin) Right...

(Bill)...and pulls it through...

(Erwin) Yeah...

(Bill) ...which is questionable to me at this point, to be completely honest, just based on the stats, the stats and the facts, but if they do, and in six or eight months, things start to turn around...

(Erwin) So what happens then?

(Bill) ...what does that have to do - I guess I have a question. What do you...

Cross talk, didn't get (Erwin) ...permanently out of the group, or does it mean that I go back to TradeNet or does it mean - what does it mean?

(?) Well first of all, there's a condition.

(Bill) Well, there's two things here. You don't have to stay connected, that's my understanding, according to the attorneys I talked to, which I gave the report on. I don't think he gets this fucking point. You can't have a connection! This, is what - you're basing (?) it on a premise and that makes me nervous, you know, because I don't want this fucking thing to go on. I really want it to be sorted out. I'm sorry if I get a little emotional, but it just gets a little frustrating to me, you know I just want... (END OF SECOND SIDE OF FIRST MICROCASSETTE TAPE) (?) when it gets to the point of the matter is connected, connected. Xxx xxx. That's how people avoid taxes. I don"t want you to get another lie on the line...

(Bill) It's a lie...

(Bill?) I don't want another lie or bullshit cycle...

(Erwin) So what is - so (Bill?) This company has had too many of them and I want that done with! I will not put up with it.

(Erwin) So what does it mean.

[MD: I told y'all he's not too swift.]
Heated cross talk, something about exchange (?) Whatever exchange - you guys work out an exchange...

(Erwin) What is the exchange? What is the exchange if I go completely out of TradeNet, what is the exchange?

(?) Nothing. Xxx.

(Alberto) Good. Existing liabilities (2) No, no, no, we actually...

(Alberto) Hang on...

(?) No, no, wait, actually...

(Alberto) ...hangon...there is actually exchange.

(?) I want you guys to discuss it.

BEGINNING OF FIRST SIDE OF SECOND MICROCASSETTE (Bill) And ... exchange because, you know, I"m willing to get you off of this building, you can look at that; you know, I'm willing to get you off of this Top Marketing thing, and I'm willing to take responsibility for this game so is the heat comes down, it comes down on me.

(?) Well, wait a minute, can I ask a question on those three?

(Bill) From the future on...

(Bill) That - that is a huge liability, huge, regardless if we pull this thing through, it's going to have repercussions on me. Huge. It, you know - that's it. That's the exchange.

(Brian) But the only thing I didn't understand when you said that, is you said youll help with Top Marketing, is that because you don't know - I would like - I'm thinking with Erwin, I'm thinking from Erwin's viewpoint, I'm thinking will you take care of it all? What does that mean?

(Bill) No, no, no. I - he - he - he asked for my help and I told him I would give it to him.

(Brian) OK. Well you take - (cross talk) (?) That's just a question I asked.

(Bill) Let's just help him, whatever, you know, like if he continues to sell the flip charts and a couple of bucks from every flip chart he sells goes to that, pay that debt, that's fine.

(Brian) Will you assume all responsibility for the approximated amount of debt? That was my question, specifically.

(Bill) All responsibility?

(Brian) Unless you guys done that..

(Erwin) Now out of the sales, out of the sales, you see, I have also inventory in Top Marketing and just selling the inventory would actually take care of the crossed Cash/Bills. It's not - Top Marketing's not in that bad of shape...

(Brian) Oh, yeah, how much inventory?

(Erwin) I have some - well, if it's keeping sold; if it's nothing sold, yeah, it's cost.

(Brian) OK. I don't know - it's just a question I have.

(Erwin) So, you said, you said you was going to help but that does not...what does that mean, I mean it does not...

(Bill) Well so in other words I'm going to facilitate TradeNet, moving the tools, making sure the tools get in moved, and a certain percentage of it or a couple of bucks for each flip chart, a dollar from a video, whatever, gets sent to Top Marketing to cover those debts.

(Brian) I disagree, xxx pipe up again. The thing is, if you're going to take over...and this is just me talking up because I know organizationally how this is, if you're to take care of Top Marketing or that function, whatever, you should take full responsibility for it and handle it.

You should just handle it.

(Lynn) End cycle on it.

(Brian) He has to...

(Erwin) I have to sell you Top Marketing, in other words...

(Brian) He has to get - yeah, he has to sell you Top Marketing. Right. So what's the value of it? Has it got some value? If it does...

(Erwin) We can determine the value, if there is any value, or if we can determine...

(Brian) Right. That's right. I agree with that.

(Erwin)...know how many machines we have...

(Brian) ....and then it's done, then it's like done, but of course you don't do this until, until you have something in place, you've got to keep that in mind. Because I just know that...

(Lynn) I think, I'm thinking what we're -here's what I see we're trying to do. The points of agreement. We're will- - what this, is all about is to get - to safepoint Erwin and Sylvia and their children and disconnect them from these lines that could go in and cause legal problems and deportation problems. It so happens that this company is in deep shit and in a very bad financial condition, so there's not any value attached to this, only liabilities...

(Erwin) There is a value that's, that's...OK...

(Lynn) Let me just finish, Erwin. I think in that spirit, if we're going for the product of safepointing you guys as separate, and cutting all ~e lines so when the legal investigations come on, as they are now, there's no line to run over. here to go "INS, deportation, gone". Those lines need to be cut, with your attorney's advice on how to cut them. And Erwin, you set up another business to do that, to qualify for your Visa and your Green Card, and I mean it's not a bad arrangement, Erwin, you can do your OSA program, you can start the new business, you're safepointed, and from what I'm understanding...

(Brian) Well my question to you was, the Top Marketing thing, if, if everyone's in agreement on it, what's your consideration on it?

(Jennifer) Well, because, it's kind of like re-acknowledge the fact that there was not good stuff that hasn't been immediately (really?) approved coming out of Top Marketing, and you're going to - rather than cut the tie, you're going to say, "Well, I'll take everything".

(?) You've got a point there.

Cross talk (Lynn) Different way to handle it. Another way to handle it. (Erwin goes to the bathroom.) Well it can be handled so he goes A to B and sets up another company and then we just make Top Marketing disappear?

(Jennifer) Right. Which is what I got when you said you'd help, that you'd sit down at the table and go,'OK, Erwin, you've got this and you've got this and..."

(Bill) This, is what I'm willing to take full responsibility for, is...

(Sylvia) Maybe we just wait for Erwin.

(Jenniffer) Let's just wait for Erwin. (A few voices agree.)

(Brian) See, here's an approximated amount of liabilities. I don't know if that's accurate or not. ..

(Lynn?) That's true.

(Brian) ...but I just know organizationally and - and for legal reasons, if you can go, 'Good, this, is my responsibility and he gets relieved of responsibilities, as long as there's no major surprises, you have to put some kind of limit on it...' (Jennifer)I don't agree...

(Brian) ...you have to define what those things are.

(Lynn) I think there's a different - I, I think we're trying for a product here is that cuts the line between Erwin and Top Marketing, that doesn't mean we take the Line because at Top Marketing has done promotions and created legal liabilities so we're not...

(Jennifer) Right. We don't want...

(Lynn) ...we're not going to clutch it to our breast. We're going to kill it.

(Jennifer) That's right.

(Brian) I understand that.

(Lynn) ...disconnect Erwin and then - what you're - and then the only other thing is what are the assets and liabilities, and how that's going to be handled.

(Brian) Right. That's what i don't know. That would need to be determined, as I understand it, it's got 97 or whatever xxx different thousand or whatever it's in debt, but then there's some, uh, assets...

(Lynn) There's some stock, there's some...

(Brian?) Some of which is valuable and some of which is not, I assume...

(Lynn) Miscellaneous shit.

(Bill) Well, now we could buy that stuff.

(Brian) An inventory would be - that's what - all I'm saying. An inventory would be done.

(Lynn) Have to be up to money on that. I mean we could kill it, as far as the legal xxx, we could just buy the assets out of it.

(Bill) Yeah, that's a good idea.

(Lynn) You know what I mean? It's just...

(Jennifer) I'd like to check with somebody on that.

(?) You could get - you could get an inventory...

(Jennifer) That line's going to go in and we have some admitt- ...

(Lynn) No, we don't. No, we just buy the assets, Jennifer.

(Jennifer) Buy their computers? There's stuff that has stuff on it? I don't think, you know, letting it work...

(Bill) Wait, wait, wait, shh, shh, shh. The point that she's trying to make is that you - the way the law works is, is that some of the promotional materials that Top Marketing put out were not correct. They didn't go through the legal line. If we acknowledge that by submitting a payment to Top Marketing, we just gave our OK. If we can not-acknowledge it by cutting the line and ending cycle with Top Marketing; that shows proper intent.

(Jennifer) Right.

(Bill) That's what her consideration was...

(Jennifer) Right, because otherwise it's like we're saying,'Oh, well, we're trying to work it out". NO.

(Bill) We're trying to figure out how to handle Top Marketing...

(Jennifer) ...we're not. It's done, and if, and if- those two want to sit down as friends and go, "Hey, I'm going to help you apply the conditions and I'm going to look at your spreadsheets and I'm gonna say 'OK, if you show this, youll be able to get this, and youll be able to...'"

when he said the solution or helps him figure a solution, that is all that registers in my mind, that he would sit down friend to friend and go,'Here's what I'll figure out what we could do, but the gradient...

(Erwin) It's much simpler, it's much simpler, you can buy every asset that, that Top Marketing has and instead of, like, you can buy the inventory, and just need to buy out...

(?) That's what he just said.

(?) So Top Marketing....

(Sylvia) Yeah, he was xxx (Bill) Top Marketing produced materials that got a lawsuit from Oregon.

Got that lawsuit and it xxx now. The - TradeNet acknowledges Top Marketing by giving you a huge chunk of change, that will look bad for us.

(Bill) It just looks bad. Is it bad? Who knows? But it looks bad. It shows that we were OK with you printing those materials. If we don't, and we say,'Good, he sent us a bill and we're not paying it because we did this", that covers TradeNet. Somehow. I agree with that. So now we gotta figure out how the hell to handle that situation for you to protect your citizenship status, right?, without making that link or that acknowledgment. Has everyone got that?

(?) Yup.

(Bill) Do you understand? And she's got a valid point, from a legal standpoint.

(Jennifer) Well, and if he starts up another company or nothing is stated that he can't set it up in the exact same place that he's at with the exact same computers, and liquidate the materials that have to do with TradeNet or Top Marketing to the Distributors, whatever, whatever can be done with them, whatever ones can be sold, which you new business can be in that exact same spot. You donY have to have it in that exact same...you know, you don't have to create a whole game.

(Bill) What, what could be done is a personal, like a - goes back to the flip chart because the flip chart is now a TradeNet product. Even though it was done by Top Marketing, it's a TradeNet product and - it's a TradeNet product. Period. You know, that's what I come back to.

(Erwin) How about the videos?

(Bill) And the videos.

(Erwin) The video was created by me.

(Bill) Right.

(Erwinl Personally. So...

(Bill) Well, we both paid for it...

(Erwin) Right.

(Lynn) This, is a legal question. A legal question.

(Sylvia) xxx see any...

(Alberto) This could be sorted out...

(Sylvia) xxx pay (Erwin) You see, I mean, you mean, you see, if any one of you two guys would get in some trouble and I would have to bail you guys out, I would say, "OK, and when the sun shines again, well let's work together". So that's what I want to know. Well, where do we stand? Do we stand Like,'OK, let's get him out of there" and never back in?, or are we like - John Collins said,'Well, it might take a week or so, handle your situation and you can go back out"; now there are Distributors that want to see me...

(?) Did he say that?

(Erwin) Oh,yeah.

(Bill) Yeah, he did and I asked him about it afterwards, after Erwin asked, you know, and he said, "What am I going to do"? What he said? You - you can talk to him. What he told me, he goes,'Look, what I saw is I saw Sylvia got the point that I was wasting my breath with Erwin.

So I didn't want to get into it. I just said, 'Whatever you guys work out, whatever you work out.'"

(ErWin) I have a hundred thousand dollars in ATG shares in my name, and I'd like to get my money back since ATG has not held up with the policy...

(?) I believe you can sell that note. Just find someone to buy it.

Cross taLK (Lilly) It is restricted.

(?) Restricted share, but...

(Lilly) You can not do anything...

(Erwin) No, no, no, you, I can sell it, i can sell it, I can put it - the only thing that's restricted I can't put it on the Stock Exchange.

(?) Right.

(Erwin) But, uh, I don't know who's going to buy that.

(Lynn) John Collins might help you out with that.

(Erwin) Because this, right now is a matter of survival.

(Bill) So anyway, the Top Marketing thing's going to requires some legal advice to handle that properly. But I'm willing to help on that. That's my willingness.

(Erwin) So again, my question, what happens when the sun shines again?

Let's think positive, things pull through...

(Bill) Well...

(Alberto) Assuming that all your legal rudiments in, are in, and you don't have a tail that people can step on, maybe there's a different type of business, not multi-level, or something we can do. But multi-level's'mmm".

You're cured?

(Erwin) I mean there's several things that are there that - I need to know that, you know? We pull this whole thing through...you see, if you would get in trouble, you would get in trouble, and I said, "OK, you have to get off the lines for the greatest good of Dynamics, uh, and you handle your stuff, and you know what, Buddy? You know, half a year ago, she went off the line, I never complained once. She went on full-time auditing and then you went off the line, you went on auditing; and - we just did it, we just did whatever we needed to be done. You know what I mean? And now I have to go off the line, then you have to come back, OK?...

(Lynn) Erwin, I think it's a moot point, a point with us to discuss that has no eventual point, because the idea being is you need a totally clean, complete, in-truth break for legal reasons, PR reasons. We need to put some truth on the line. Then it opens the possibility of you guys not pulling in any attacks to get you thrown out of the country. My suggestion is that, let's look at handling the PT scene. If and when later on you handle your legal rudiments, that's all in. You handle your situation with OSA, which from what I heard is like six months full time, you have a considerable program from what I understand. And then if at that point if you do in fact handle it, I don't know if you're going to handle or you want to handle it, but in fact you do handle it and your legal rudiments, and then you approach and then it's - and then it's a Non-Existence formula, it's nothing left over from the past. That would be my suggestion. That would make sense to me. You - you maintain any kind of a string or anything else, you're going to pull in more - you're going to pull in attacks, man, because it's a lie. And the only reason - the only hope you have is a clean break and disconnection so when the heat comes on and your name is named in some legal documents our attorney, "No, no, no, no, no, this guy is out of here. He no longer is here". Some heat comes down from the INS, you go "No, no, no, no, here's the document, I'm out of there. Here's my company." That is a cut line, that's all over.

[MD: 6-month OSA program???] (?) Then there's no Lie on the perpetuated (?).

(Erwin) So who's going to take the shares?

(Bill) I currently have - I currently this guy's and this guy's, and I'm just going, "OK, this, is going to be sorted out first. I'm not doing anything with it, I haven't even decided on the mutual because the fellow in LA, Steve Hayes, is not really a mutual third party so I haven't had - I haven't found anybody here. So right now I'm not doing anything with it. I'm just - that's all. I'm not doing anything with it. And it's just like, OK...The share are, the shares are nothing more than a symbol to me. They are nothing more than a symbol because.

(?) It's not even an issue right now, it's like - it's kind of like on our list of priorities, it's kind of down here.

(Erwin) No, no, no, because the xxx owns the company, you get called by the, you know...

(?) The IRS...

[MD: !!!!!!] (Erwin)...guy who owns the company...

(?) That's right.

(Erwin) So who owns the company...

(Bill) So, anyway, so anyway, You know, Erwin, really the bottom line is, you know, it is as I stated...

(Erwin) So who do I state - to who do I...(End of first tape, second side) sign them over?

(Bill) The, the...let me finish what I was saying. I guess you sign them over to Brian, to answer that question.

(Erwin) I sign them over to Brian?

(Brian) No, no, you don't You don't sign them over to me. What you do is you..I don't know. ..

Start of second large tape, first side Cross talk (Brian) Thank you Sylvia. You are my friend.

(Brian?) No. This is better, because the shares haven't been Registered with the state, all's you have to do is tear them up. I'm not kidding. You destroy them and they're gone.

(?) Yeah, but for his own safety, if that's going to happen, what he needs to do is do that...

(Erwin) And you need to write me a statement that says that since I have nothing Registered with the state, uh, you actually were never a shareholder...

(?) Right. Exactly.

(Erwin) ...from the get-go, and I need that from the company, I was never a shareholder, an owner from the get-go.

(Bill) And see that particular point is a matter of significance.

(Erwin) It's a matter of significance.

(Bill) ...and so anyway the...

(Erwin) OK. So that, OK, so that would be done, and...

(Bill)...what I was saying. What was I saying?

(Brian) You were basically saying - I don't totally understand that because I haven't talked to you about that, but you were saying since they're were not Registered therefore he needs to...

(Bill) No, it was before that. I was trying to say...

(?)xxx (Bill) What was I saying before that?

(?) I was going like this.

(Lynn) I think you were re-stating something.

(Bill) Yeah, I was re-stating something.

(Erwin) So they were never issued, so I just need a statement from the company that states...

(Bill) No, it was properly done but that Register - remember that Register that I signed? That is what you submit to the state once a year, well our year's not up, we haven't done our Corporate filing, we don't have to do it until next January Ist. So it's not due for another 60 days (Erwin) So...

(Bill) xxx (Erwin) So if I'm not registered, I'm not an owner. Doesn't need to be registered in order to be an owner.

(Bill) No, you are an owner. You have 50% of the issued shares. That is a fact. If they ever came and confiscated our Corporate books, you're an owner. Period. You are an owner. But the good thing for you is that the state doesn't know that! They don't know that! So we get rid of that record and guess what? There's no record of it.

[MD: *ROFL!* Is he talking about obstruction of justice?] (Erwin) Yeah but we put it all over the TradeWins. "these are the owners". So when somebody asks...

(Lynn) You're going to formally disconnect. Legally, formally, all the way. And it should be arranged by an attorney that - it's as decisively and completely as possible cut the lines to you.

(Bill?) In a way that the INS is going to go,'Oh! Good. You did disconnect, didn't you. Yes!"

(Lynn) He's not involved in it, Yeah, yeah, yeah", they may be, "Yeah, OK, so what, but he's not going to...here's his letter, he's no longer there, there's no connection there whatsoever, he's doing a completely new, different business, and that's it. No longer involved in it."

(?) The letter would probably more correctly coming from you as saying, "I've properly resigned. ..

(Female) Yeah, that's what I was thinking (?)...herewith attached are my blah-blah-blahs." And it's notarized or whatever they do.

(Lynn) Yeah, the attorneys, they know how to do that shit, but the product would be, a clean and complete break, so that line, when the heat comes here, doesn't jump over to you guys, it's like, 'Boom, we're out of here"

[MD: Boom, you're caught.] (Alberto) What about communication to the Distributors who have his home phone number and fax and everything?

(?) I don't know.

(Lynn) Change your phone number.

(?) Otherwise...entheta on your lines.

(?) God only knows how many people have your numbers. Thousands. Xxx's pretty low. Broad public issue.

(Erwin) So I think there is another issue here and that's international sales, and the reason I ask that is called the Globe, and that asset could make hundreds of millions of dollars, (?) It's all hearsay and speculation...

(Erwin) No, no, if the, I mean...

(Bill) No, first of all, you're right, there is that asset, the Globe is probably the only asset that (Erwin) xxx my name...

(Bill) but, but, it is an asset. Right? So that's an asset, sure enough, sure it is, but what liability is attached to that asset? And I'm willing to wager that you go to any, to any business analyst and they wouldn't tell - they would recommend that you wouldn't touch TradeNet with a ten foot pole and it's not worth anything, it's actually a liability, even with the Super Globe. But the only thing that's going to xxx. That's about the only thing that I can see...and even that, it attaches a certain liability to it, because of the previous product. It's got shadows and skeletons because of the previous product.

So it's not xxx. There isn't anything that's xxx.

(Erwin) But still it could be sold, to make, to make money. I mean you have your contract for 150,000 Globes to Europe...

(Lynn) Well, let me say this from a CEO viewpoint and the financial condition of this company. We need every asset we possibly can have to possibly bail this company out. We have millions in liabilities right now.

(Etwin) What happens if we bail it out, and then you really turn a profit off of the Globe?

(Lynn) Well then it should be to our credit to the guys who are bailing this thing out, that's what should occur.

(?) It's actually a different xxx...

(Erwin) But still I have worked this for two years, and I have not been the only person who got it into this situation it has been in. And that's what I keep hearing after two hours. I have not been the only person who actually did it.

(Female) And what...

(Lynn) Erwin, I...

(Erwin) Do you know what I mean?

(?) Yeah.

(Lynn) Erwin, nobody's blam- nobody's blaming you 100%, I handled this fucking computer fuckup night, day and weekends, xxx have to confront and handle that. Just between you and I, Erwin...

(Erwin) Yeah?

(Lynn) There's no way I'm blaming you for the entire condition that's going on here.

(Erwin) OK.

(Lynn) Personally, I don't...

(Erwin) If that is the case, if that is the case, then, then, again, right now if I have to go off the line and this is the greatest good for the greatest number, understood. Understood. But it's not - it's right now, the guys that are bailing it out are the guys that still are able to bail it out. I'm sort of incapacitated as a Distributor, and I am a Distributor, and I can't even bait it out even if I wanted to, and I know I could bail it out, OK?, because you made the decision, so I can't bail it out. So now I also...

(Lynn) The fact is, Erwin? Let me just point out this other fact to you.

(Erwin) OK.

(Lynn) You're sitting with a table of guys that I think you should be kissing them on both cheeks right now because they're willing to take the full liability of this organization and to take all the legal heat so youte got a chance of not getting thrown out of the country and lose your kids.

(Erwin) So, so - I understand that.

(?) But you also have to understand, too, xxx...

(Erwin) But I also created the Globe, and, and let's assume the liabilities, the Cash/Bills is positive and everything goes fine.

Sylvia or other female requesting a break; meeting took a break.

(Jennifer) So, welcome.

(Brian) Re-start after a break.

(Erwin) OK. So I don't know what else you have on this thing, but I mean what I have to do is get me a lawyer and draft these resignation and whatever, you can have my resignation, I already wrote it up, and for my post as Treasurer I resign, and everything else I'm going to formulate with the lawyer and see what we to do here. And...see, at this point in time there is no choice, so I'm not asked to make a choice, there is no choice.

(?) I agree and disagree.

(Erwin) No, well, there is no choice. So...

(?) No, I disagree. I actually disagree.

(?) There's always a choice.

(Erwin) No, I don"t have a choice.

(Female) xxx (Erwin) The thing is, the thing is, already decided, already worked out, already done; all I want to say is I could work here, I would be able to turn it around; if I'm not allowed to work here, then you guys, being the ones who want to bail this out, take the full responsibility to bail it out. Xxx the consequence is then up to those who said, "OK" and 'No, not with you, Erwin." OK. Because I can't do anything anymore. I can't help, I can't fire them up anymore, I can't work with them, therefore, I'm, I'm not capable of helping you guys anymore. Uh, I've - the shares, tell me to sign them over to you, i sign them over to anybody you tell me.

(Bill) It literally is a matter of just giving them - to tear them up.

(Brian?) You can give them to me and I'll give you an acknowledgment.

(Erwin) Uh, that's why I will talk to the lawyer...

(Brian) Good...

(Erwin) ...before I will tear them up.

(Brian) Good. That's better...

(Erwin) So I would like to know more specifics of how that helps you xxx.

(Bill) Xxx (Erwin) To help me is fine, but Top Marketing - right now there are 5 people working in Top Marketing, full time, to - to help pulling TradeNet through, (Bill) Well, you're...

(Erwin) So how does that work?

(Bill) That's not going to change because we have xxx responsibility xxx and Top Marketing can't go away. I would recommend that you get on something right away.

(Erwin) Well, I think, you see...

(Bill) You know, I think with the amount of money that you've made in the past month, that you could probably get something going pretty decent, pretty quick. You know - and that is - I guess we'll just take those guys, put them on as our staff members.

(Lynn) Yeah, the guys that we have now, we can use, we're using them now.

And functionally, but legally and corporately and how this now goes, got to be guided by attorneys because we don't want any - we don't want to have any additional liabilities at TradeNet, we've got enough shit to handle. We just sort it out.

(Erwin) Got it. Um, that's - I need to talk to the immigration lawyer that's here, because right now my fiscal year ends at the end of September and with the fiscal year's figures, can be actually for Top Marketing, and because of the extension for the Visa. Do you see what I mean? Because it's harder to have a new Visa with a new company and new things, than just extending the existing Visa because I have people on the payroll as the kind of extension (?) and I have income. I can prove all these things, and if I have for the extension, the moment I have the extension, I can always dismantle this whole thing and do another one, and by the time I get another extension, I have something else going.

(Lilly?) Xxx the Attorney General xxx...

(Erwin) Well right now there's no litigation, right now there's nothing against me. I'm not litigated...

(Lynn) Now is the time...now is the time...well, here's my opinion, and this is for you as much, Sylvia, now is the time to cut these lines. I mean as quickly as possible. I mean don't delay a day. Tomorrow somebody could walk in here with a legal document and it's all over. You've had it.

That is - that is the conditions we're in, and I'd say don't even waste hours. You should see your attorney - you should go see your attorney this afternoon, get the advise and just move ahead and if he's go to work until midnight to draw this up, and do it, don't even delay an hour.

(Jennifer) What's going on with Oregon with you? There's still the investigation?

(Erwin) All their questions have been answered.

(Jennifer) But there's still an investigation? You haven't heard anything >from Top Marketing?
(Erwin) No.

(?) Just finish it. When they ask you questions, just....

(Erwin) I haven't gotten any more questions.

(Brian) Is there outstanding business on that as far as...?

(Bill) As long as he's answered the questions, they'll let him know.

(Jennifer) Theyll respond with what it could be.

(Brian) OK.

(Jennifer) It's the same thing that we're going through, only Erwin and Top Marketing got also served with papers for Oregon so he answered separate questions and submitted those, so he's in a waiting period.

(Bill) You know what, Erwin, if you want to make that go away, you can actually make that go away by just signing xxx xxx you promise not to do business in Oregon.

(Jennifer) And you're not going to, so you could xxx and be done with it very quickly...

(Bill) You could just call them up and negotiate a little bit with your attorney, make it go away.

(Jennifer) You say,'I'm not going to do business there"

(Bill) We can't do that because we have responsibilities to Distributors, we can't say, "Well, we're not going to do business in Oregon..."

(Erwin) Umhmm.

(Brian) Does this involve - this involves Erwin individually?

(Jennifer) Erwin and Top Marketing.

(Brian) Right. OK.

(Lynn) This means personally (?) (Brian) Like, yeah, OK. To back up what Lynn said, he's not being overly dramatic and it...

(Erwin) I got it. And I'm, I'm pretty much done here, uh, we got in the Globe, so xxx another date (?). The future will show.

(Lynn) What do you mean?

(?) I don't understand that. I'm sorry - I didn't get that.

(Erwin) Well, I mean right now is not the right time to talk about, uh...

(?) Futures and...

(Erwin) Yeah, well the trademark on the Globe is on you, you and me.

(Lynn) Well, as CEO I think now is the time to talk about it, you know why, Erwin?

(Erwin) No (Lynn) Because this is company is in deep shit with a lot of liabilities.

(Erwin) Is this....

(Lynn) Now let me just fmish this. Let's look at what is xxx here.

(Some discussion Lynn intejected about a CSW, something about going through Bob Nelson - seemed to be an external distraction and not part of the meeting.)

END OF FIRST SIDE OF SECOND MICROCASSETTE TAPE (Lynn) Now listen, I will tell them whatever we agree to tell them. It's gotta have enough - I don't want to black PR you; we'll just - what we'll get is an acceptable truth, whatever is an acceptable truth. Whatever is an acceptable...

(?) Well have to document....

(Erwin) What is an acceptable truth?

(?) Well, the truth is that...

(Jennifer) Well, I think we need to do that now because when we walk out...

(Erwin) Well, we need to state the truth. I mean, my truth that I have may a different truth than the truths that you have, and these two truths could be causing upsets, so we...

(Lynn) ...equal amount of xxxs here to blab this out. I think it should be, I think...Dr. Annau now has blah-de-blah-de -blah-de-blah.

(Female, laughing) Very good.

(?) Well, that cleared it up for me!

All are laughing (Lynn) Now, on with the presentation!

(Female) ...has moved on to...

(Bill) Well, first of all, first of all, there's - there is, you gotta look at the actual isness of it. EDC's going to want to know something, the Profit Sharing guys are gonna want to know something.

(Erwin) Um hm. And the Distributors...

Cross talk (Bill)... When I went to xxx Donny Walker's Downline, only 10 % of them had even heard your name, or Top Marketing. So we have such a tremendous new group of Distributors that doesn't know any of us.

(Lynn) I got it. You see...

(Bill) You haven't made that promise to. And that promise that has been made was maybe to earlier-on Distributors and a certain number (?). So we gotta make a line then it says, uh, that uh...

(Lynn) We gotta name the public this statement is for.

(Erwin) xxx (names?) xxx, they're very new, hope that we're going to pull this through, they want me there in September, so what do I tell them?

(Lynn) You don't tell them anything, well tell them.

(Bill) Because he's got great credibility with these guys.

(?) Very good, so what do...

(Erwin) So what do we tellthem? So...

(Lynn) Well, wait a minute. Here's the public? Here's the public that we gotta have this for - the first public to hear this will be the AG public.

So this statement has got to be a clean break and it could be used later by the AG if any ever, he tried to get you guys, you want that statement in addition to all the legal things, to go,'uh, uh, uh, uh". Here's the public statement. ..

(Erwin) Well there's - the statement to, the statement for the AG is that I have resigned from all functions within this organization, have canceled my Distributorship and I have cut the ties with TradeNet.

(Lynn) Right.

(?) No resist.

(Erwin) And I personally, I personally have done that, you know?, and Top Marketing may, might take a while, but it...

(?) To get into a game that's involved with the environment.

(Alberto) Don't give any reason to it.

(?) xxx something like that...

(Sylvia) Not right now.

(Erwin) Not right now.

(Lynn) Hey - what about this? Well, one of the things you're going to do that you've wanted to do is spend some more time with the family, right?

(Erwin) Music.

(Lynn) And pursue and follow other pursuits, like your six month OSA program. Then I could go into great detail about that.

(?) Yeah, right (laugh).

(Lynn) That's a horrible joke.

(Erwin). Um, I understand that you're moo-, moo-, mood is grim enough to make horrible jokes, so I... (Brian) Now the thing is, by the way, I don't know if that is something that Ben said can word for word, he just said a number of months. I don't want to put Ben in a funny light, by the way. Covering my ass with that statement.

[MD: Yeah, good idea, Brian. Cover your ass, if you can.] (2) OK.

(Lynn) So how about this? It should be that Erwin is going on...what other pursuits are you going to follow, Erwin?

(Bill) Well, he's gonna, he's gonna to get into a new business at some point, I mean it has to be realistic; if I was the public, the public we just talked about, let's take it by public, as that is correct.

(Erwin) But they will say why did I leave the Distributors? And there's enough people that I, I said I was going to follow through, so what is the acceptable truth? Acceptable truth? The acceptable truth is that the EDC doesn't want me in that business anymore, and my business partner don't want me in the business. That's the truth.

(Lynn) Erwin, this, isn't why, this, is why he was trying to get you to make a decision, rather than only have no decision, because if you were willing...

(Erwin) Well...

(Lynn) Listen to this. If you were willing to make a decision to move on, for your own reasons, then that's what we could tell them! Because the way it's positioned right now is in - the way, from your position...

(Erwin) Uh huh?

(Lynn)...is that they made me do it. So you could say, "Moved on for personal reasons".

(Erwin) Well, I cannot say that I, from my own viewpoint, wanted to do it, but it's just too far south that I can't turn it around.

(Lynn) Oh, that's great, that'd be real helpful.

Laughing (2) That would really help.

(Erwin) See, OK, so you, I don't know, I have no idea what to tell them.

(Lynn) Well, part of the thing is, going back, well, why are you doing it?

(?) Yeah.

(Lynn) What's the actual truth, Erwin? That you just signed the document and you're agreeing to all this; what is the actual truth...

(Erwin) I haven't signed it the document yet...

(Lynn) Nah, nah, nah, from your, no, from your viewpoint, why are you doing this? What is the truth of it? No bullshit, no PR. Why are you doing it? No really, why? It's OK - I'd like to hear it just straight, Erwin, just for sort of a souvenir.

(Enuin) No, no, you see, as you know that my viewpoint may be in such that whatever I say, may not be understood for whatever reason; uh, I'd rather keep all my opinions to myself.

(Lynn) Why don't we turn the recorders off, just for the hell of it, and maybe you could just say it, maybe we could work this out.

(Erwin) I mean, I'm just disappointed, that's all.

(Lynn) OK.

(Erwin) I'm just very disappointed of how far it goes, but anyway, but I don't want to say anything, if I say things, then it will be misunderstood and then misconstrued and, you know what I mean? So, my reason? Let's find a good reason for the Distributors.

(?) For your Distributor public.

(Erwin) The Distributor public. I mean, the EDC? Yeah, but they will spread the word, you know, 'We demanded Erwin out and now he's out".

(Lynn) So what. You're not gonna control - I mean, listen, when this, is going to be announced and can be announced neutrally and then people are going to draw their own conclusions anyway. And I think it's all going to be over in about 48 hours. I think it'll just - people actually have their own lives to get on with. Even though we're all very important in our own universe, people actually get on with their lives very quickly, they got rent to pay, they got a business to build, it'll like - time to go on for everybody.

(?) So, OK. So what do you tell the Distributor public, that actually expect to see him back, or wha-, or...

(Lynn) Yeah. Sure that's a great idea. No. (Female laughs) I think we should - could say something like, "Erwin put out a lot of time on the road 'traveling around the United States promoting the environmental issues and so on, and now it's time for him to move on.' (Erwin) So therefore I resign from everything?

(Lynn) Therefore he resigned, made - and it's time for him to move on.

(?) What does that mean?

(?) That's, that's OK, I xxx - give it a shot.

Cross talk (Lynn)...what's the fuck it mean, I don't know what the fuck it means.

(?) xxx put you on the spot...

Lots of cross talk (Lynn)....fucking better ideas, then tell me.

(Sylvia) Well, there is one comment that I would like to say.

(Bill) Quiet. The important thing that we have to do here is it's got to be win-win for everybody.

(Sylvia) Um hmm.

(Bi11) We don't want to create a panic that Erwin jumped ship. Cuz there are - I only know of one downline that I know of that is really dedicated to Erwin and that is Peggy Shaw's. Peggy Shaw's very much interested in Erwin.

(?) Um hmm.

(Bill) I don't know of any others, and I've talked to a bunch of them, you know, a lot of them know of Erwin, but I know of Peggy Shaw has a, has a, has a, has an affinity for ENvin, her particularly.

(Brian) So there's a mixture, there's some who will ask, some that won't ask...

(Bill) Right.

(Brian)...some who will ask, some that won't...

(Bill)...but if they ask - you know how I would like to handle it? I would like to handle it on an individual basis. Just come up with a - I don't think we should put the word out at all.

(Brian) I was going to suggest that, I don't know why it has to go out - somebody else.

(Bill) I don't see the need to tarnish Erwin's reputation any further than it already is...

(Brian) Or TradeNet's.

[MD: Too late.] (?) Tarnish TradeNet xxx more than it already is, it's just that, that xxx, you know, xxx individual public...

(Erwin) You have to, you have to tell the EDC, because that's what you want to do because you hope that with that news, some of the EDC members will start working TradeNet.

(Bill) Right.

(Brian) Well, has that been to some degree already?

(Brian) That's the xxx right now.

(Bill) Now wait a second now. The EDC's already well xxx to xxx, they talked to John Collins, they know everything.

(?) That's right.

(Bill) I mean everything.

(Lynn) xxx EDC member tell me 'Erwin's got to go". Donny Walker said,'Erwin's got to go". I talked to John Collins - 'He's got to go"

(Bill) So they know everything already. They're not - a little bit of it got out the first weekend when we were in Anaheim, it got out to the downline that we've been working with to nip that in the bud.

(Alberto) "I got out, to them, for the sake of TradeNet, to them, to the EDC. I decided to - I want TradeNet to make it and I decided to go on to something else."

(Sylvia) Do you think that's good PR?

(Alberto) For the EDC,'for the sake of Tra-", like, you still want TradeNet to make it.

(?) When you put the well-being of others xxx put the well-being of others xxx ahead of your own.

(Sylvia) Yeah, but what, what you're - what is saying to the EDC, well get, you know, some will put it down xxx, so you cannot say something which is just for one person. Just for...

(Bill) OK, so let's just say that it does get out as a limited distribution. Is that bad?

(Sylvia) Yeah...

(?) Yeah, kinda.

(Sylvia) Right, because Erwin, Erwin kind of said that he's not good for TradeNet, that he's not good...

(?) I was thinking pretty much...

(Jennifer) It should be a simple statement that Erwin has moved on to other interests. Let them dub in whatever they want, anybody, that statement can be used for the staff, it can be used for everybody. We keep it uptone, Erwin, you know, because we're not disconnecting from you.

We're going to be friends, I mean, that's the whole purpose of this, I mean that we're also gonna get along, not just like a fuck you thing, it's like,'Erwin is moving on, he's doing something else", period. It's going to go away very quickly, like you said, in 48 hours it's all going to be done. That is the simple truth of it. That's it. That's what everybody...

(Sylvia) Yeah, but do we not get along with just ...

(Erwin) So who's going to handle that fax that I'm going to get shortly after and said, "Erwin, you promised you're gonna stick with it...

Cross talk (Lynn) Part of this agreement here, Brian, is that all contacts with Distributors, vendors, etc., are ended by Erwin.

(Sylvia) Uh, when you're...

Cross talk (Lynn) That's one of the things that I suggest.

(Bill) And then we handle those originations.

(Lynn) And then we, yeah...

(Alberto) But we should need to agree anyway on how we're going to handle them.

(Lynnl) Erwin? Did you get what I said there?

(Erwin) Yeah.

(Lynn) And that we will, in fact, handle those lines. I don't want, I don't want anything going on. I mean, we've really got to control our comm lines.

[MD: Oh, you're doing an excellent job. Truly marvelous.] (Sylvia) We - can Carol xxx write a KR on Erwin when he promised to come out there and handle it?

(Lynn) I'll handle her.

(?) Well handle it.

(Lynn) I'll handle Carol xxx. I want a list of - I want a list of any - I need a list of all the promises Erwin made, on delivering.

(?) Good.

(Lynn) ...and we will handle these. I don't want upset our Distributors, I don't want to black PR Erwin, Ijust want to end it and carry on.

(?) Yeah, I think, you know....

(Lynn) I'm going to be in LA this week, Ill go see Carol.

(?) Yeah?

(Bill) And I think Jennifer xxx LA.

(Erwin) xxx in LA?

(Lynn) I got to go to ATG this week.

(Sylvia) But like you remember that in February...

(Brian?) ....a List of promises of delivery made up and then you will handle them.

(Erwin) Can you, can you...

(Lynn) ...in terms of the comm lines, I want Erwin to disconnect from those Distributor comm lines...

(Erwin) But I have xxx all...Now, if, if, if John Collins wants me so bad to go, I would like him to give me my 100,000 back. You know, if he's got such an interest in me to go...

(Bill) He doesn't have it. xxx he's going to throw back at us? We owe him money.

(?) Lots.

(Bill) Past due; you're past due, you have a $30,000 debt to him.

(?) (laughing) Oh, god, he's think he's gonna...I'm willing to help on that.

(?) Pushing the wrong button.

Cross talk (Bill) ...because I opened this statement by saying that TradeNet doesn't have any bills older than 60 days. Yeah, we may owe him 2.5 million dollars, but at least they're not real old. And he says,'Na, no. Top Marketing's got a debt," he was equating Top Marketing with TradeNet, he says, You guys have a debt of over 90 days of 30,000 bucks and I says, WThat the hell are you talking about?" And then he goes into this Top Marketing, so he's got - I suggest that if you want, you dump those things, but don't dump them with John Collins, get with your stock broker and say,'Hey, I want to xxx.' (Erwin) Well, the restricted shares I, I cannot not dump within the year.

(?) No, you can't dump the stocks but you can dump that certificate.

(?) Change the certificate to somebody else's...

(Sylvia) It's not optional.

(Erwin) It's not optionable.

(?) It's not?

(Erwin) No.

(?) Well, talk to your stock broker, maybe there's a solution there.

(Bill) I feel pretty confident that you can sell the certificate.

(Lynn) Just write a letter and say John Dab, the counsel for ATG, very nice letter, saying 'Having this, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, I would like to get some suggestions"...

(Female) Yeah (?) Would you like to buy us out?

(Lilly) I think he is the one that drew the contract that we signed originally, that there's stocks.

(Alberto) xxx TradeNet's xxx of, of, of ATG's...

(Lynn) Distributors, company public, vendors...

(Lilly) Well, it's a similar situation with the building, you know, Bill and Brian are going to help you to find somebody else to assign that liability to, so maybe you have some contacts that you can...

(Bill) Yeah, I can talk to John and work xxx...

(Lilly) ...and you can pass those certificates to...

(Bill?) Handle the HE & R he has on it...

(Erwin) Well, I mean, if it helps him, then, take him the 35 dollars off the 100 thousand and, and, and, and buy him back and he scraps the bills that I have. Well, maybe that helps him.

(cross talk) (Brian) That's actually a good solution. He might go for that.

(?) Yeah.

(Female) Mmm. (unsure sound) (Jennifer) Especially if he xxx, acknowledge that it's fair (Erwin) That he might not get the 30, ever...

(?) Better if he gets the xxx (Erwin)...and, uh, he, once I'm out of the game, I'm an owner of the shares, I - you know what I mean? I can a lot of things. I'm an owner of shares of ATG, and that's a right I have, I can do with the right whatever I want to. He might consider that as one way; all I want to (?), I give him 100 G's, and he did not fulfill on the promise that the shares would go up, again the trust in somebody, I was betrayed.

(?) Yeah. I've lost money doing stocks, so anyway...OK.

(Erwin) Mmmm...I would not have lost money on stocks but I believed Jim DiCastro and it was a mistake.

(Brian) OK. Um, anything else? Otherwise I'd like to propose a short break and I'll type this up.

(?) OK.

(Brian) And then well meet in about ten minutes?

(?) Yep.

Break (Brian) This is the - this is the PR statement.

(Erwin) Do I get a copy of this?

(Brian) Yeah, I just want you and Syivia to look at it to see if it - if it - communicated...

Cross talk (Brian) I'll go through - as soon as Sylvia's done reading that, then I'll go through this because I think we've covered it Erwin, we've got an elusive (?) promises here and stuff...

(Brian) Does that seem alright?

(Lynn) How's that, Erwin?

(Brian) Is that alright?

(Erwin) Sounds wishy-washy, you know, there's nothing in there.

(?) xxx (Erwin) So there's people like Kim Cassano who want to know...

(?) What she can know is up to you. It's - I don't know - xxx...

(Brian) That's why I wrote the exchange thing, cut I want to keep the integrity in so everybody also would backs up everybody else, it doesn't get into "They screwed me, oh, they screwed -", one of those things.

That's not productive.

(Lynn) Well, that original agreement we signed, Brian, prevents us from going out and giving any stories or opinions, and Erwin, I'll tell you, the only thing, once this, is all done, the only thing that was coming out of my mouth was that statement there. Publicly or privately.

(?) Yeah.

(Lynn) I mean, we've all done a lot of good and a lot of bad. We just need to get on with our lives, you know. i mean, I'll tell you that personally, what I'll agree to is that statement.

(Erwin) Now, I have a question.

(Lynn) Well thanks for the overwhelming acknowledgment of my good-heartedness here, I'm reassured we can carry forth.

(Erwin) It's fine. I have a question. Uh, we all hope that the stats will go up, and if the stats go up, which uh, some possibilities that they will do, so, who is going to be responsible, who is the Who amongst the people who have been sacked, uh, to make the stats go down?

End of second large tape,first side Second large tape, second side (Lynn) Who is the Who?

(Erwin) In your opinion. Yeah.

(Lynn) I don't think there is a single Who - you just want my opinion on this?

(Erwin) Mmhmm.

(Lynn) I don't think there is a single Who, i mean as far as I'm looking, or what are the functions that have been omitted that need to be included, that's about as far as I've looked at the whole thing.

(Erwin) Functions that have been omitted.

(Lynn) Things that we need to start doing .Things that we're doing right now.

(Erwin) See, you know the tech as I do, and there's - really you say when you hit the real SP, the stats go up. It's covered in policy. Now you get rid of me, I don't have any possibility to get the stats back up; i hope and believe that it will go up and if the intention is there they will go up...uh, now that leaves the conclusion that I'm the Who. So what do you think about that?

[MD: Erwin has a cognition! Attest to Operating Scapegoat!] (Bill) That's why we - signed the confidentiality...if you're concerned about someone labeling you as a Who, someday here down the road, when someone looks back at TradeNet and concerned about that confidentiality agreement, xxx already signed, I mean it's just like - these proceedings are confidential. That's the PR statement and that's what we say and that's it.

[MD: Except for the tiny little detail of the subsequent subpoena and the entry into the public record. Ah, well.] (Brian?) I don't tell my wife, I don't tell...

(?) anybody.

[MD: Yep, all nice, neat and confidential.] (Bill) Kim Cassano...

(Lynn) And the truth is, nobody really gives a damn, that's been my errperience. I mean it's a big deal in your own universe and 48 hours later people are - you know, they gotta go shopping and handle their shit...

(Bill) You know what? The irreducible truth of the matter is that we're all responsible. I mean, and that is covered in policy, too. Regardless if there's an SP on the lines, guess who does - guess who gets busted as well? I mean, I'm not, I'm not saying you're an SP but don't think in that particular stable datum there, you know what I mean? It's, it's in the presence...

(Erwin) So what do you think, that...

(Bill) OSA, OSA - If Nick (?) stated to us that he's checked us all out, you were there in the room, you were there in the room, Nick said he checked us all out and there's no SPs in this room, is what he said. That was the exact phrasing, he said.

(?) I remember that.

(Bill) Well part of that, the next datum that takes precedent is that the senior terminals are responsible, totally responsible. Is one terminal more responsible than others? No. It's just totally responsible.

(?) OK.

(Erwin) ? OK.

(Bill) And as long as we say that, I don't see it as an issue, and if it ever comes up, well handle it.

(Lynn) xxx if anyone ever asks me, it's none of their business. Who could possibly...

[MD: Yes, who could possibly?...] (?) That's my answer.

(Lynn) Who could possibly ask me, who could possibly ask me something that I would feel some obligation to explain it to. My buddy in town, David Singer, Kim Cassano? It's none of their business? It really isn't.

(?) Good point. Lynn.

(Erwin) OK.

(Lynn) None of their business.

(?) So we could make a stipulation that we just...

(Lynn) We could stipulate that.

(Jennifer) Yeah. I agree...

(Cross talk) (Lynn) If anybody asks you about it, you go, "this, is the statement made", that's all there is to it. What are you, so bored, you gotta - you want some gossip? What are you asking for? What is the deal?"

(?) Yeah. Good point.

(Brian) Well, OK. So the first point is, same, "xxx addresses past agreement or association between Mr. Erwin Annau and TradeNet - Top Marketing - CleanEarth. One, all positions in TradeNet" - well go ahead and take a look, we have already gone over it, just take a look, unless you don't want it on the recording or something?

(?)xxx (?) Yes, it is.

(Erwin) Yeah I'm ready.

(?) (Something about) someone's daughter, she handles the stuff xxx building.

Cross talk (Erwin) ...don't want my his wife to sign anything here...

(Brian) OK.

(Erwin) ...she's not party to this.

(Brian) OK.

(Erwin) ...my wife is not party to this. I don"t want her on any of the Corporate thing here.

(?) You can white that out. Would you get me some white out, please?

(?) Sure. Hopefully Gilma has some.

(Erwin) Need to make some copies for everybody involved.

(Brian) Going to make copies for everybody.

(?) So - I can white her out of that?

Cross talk and hard-to-hear talk about food and about the documents.

(Lynn) Do they need to be?

(Brian) Well, all of them are xxx confidential; I'd like to include them because to me, they're half of the formula. As far as this agreement, I don't think it necessary.

(Jennifer) ...corporate. The corporate stuff doesn't involve xxx, it never has.

(Brian) OK.

(Jennifer) But this stuff does, so there's something...

(Brian) OK.

(?) xxx (Brian) OK.

Cross talk about dabbing or daubing white out, misc non-related (Brian) What I'll do is you sign it and I'll make copies of it.

(Erwin) Well you have a computer, don't you? Takes you one minute to erase the names...

(Brian) OK, everything else look OK you guys?

(?) Yeah, i think it's xxx (Brian) Lynn, could you look at this, please?

(Lynn) I already looked at it.

Misc small talk (Alberto) Can we get a copy of these statements, so I could have...

(Brian) Yeah.

(Lynn) Everybody will get copies.

(Sylvia) Do I need to sign this?

(?) Yeah, everybody sign it and give me a copy.

Misc small talk about a movie etc.

(Erwin) Can we have a copy of that, too2 (?) (counting copies out loud) Misc discussion about copying, various personal things.

(Erwin) Just give me the acknowledgment of receipt for my Treasurer post.

Something about notaries.

(Brian) OK, I need for you to pass it around please and everybody to sign it.

(?) We have Josie xxx, xxx's daughter, she handles the stuff xxx building xx utilities...

Cross talk about signing (?) Want to get a copy of that, too so they xxx. I'll give you the original back.

(Erwin) Uh, is there any plan to pursue Kim Cassano's product?

(Bill) I can't see past the bills that we have right now. Just, I mean, I can't even think about that kind of shit. Xxx xxx New Products Officer. I mean, xxx (?) So you want - if you want to jump into it...

(?) (Something about) someone's daughter, she handles the stuff xxx building (hard to hear) If you want to jump into it, if you can make something of it, go for it.

END OF SECOND SIDE OF SECOND MICROCASSETTE This part was on the target tapes but not on the microcassette; this seems to be where it goes sequentially but no way to verify.

(Erwin) No (?).

(Lynn) That's psychiatrist marketing (?) (?) Oh, that's what I thought you were asking for.

(Erwin) No, no. Xxx plan.

(Lynn) There's no place for them to sign on Number Six, xxx they'll change their phone numbers and stuff.

(Brian) There isn't?

(Lynn) No. I'll make a space.

(Brian) OK.

Some murmuring about this and that as they sign, can't hear it (Erwin) So how do you handle people that say, well,'Erwin has deserted us. He deserted TradeNet"?

(Lynn) I'll say, "that's right!"

(?) Be considerate.

(Lynn) How would I handle him? I'd say, "Erwin?" I'd say, ~What are you talking about?" 'Blah, blah, blah, blah," Well, what help do you - what help do you need?" I've got - what I've got to do is I've got to bridge your personal comm Lines over to the company. So I will handle it like...

(?) ...in a in-PR way...

(Lynn) I know how to - in-PR...

(?) ...xxx to take full responsibility for his...

(Lynn) And there's always, you know, Like, TRs like a no-answer.

(Erwin) xxx gets going on this...

(Lynn) Like a no-answer or whatever else, I mean if a person is pressing like that, then I'll handle it such a way that it's not going to xxx. See, if that's - it wouldn't do us any good to black PR you. It wouldn't do me any good.

(?) We know of course is - everything in here is cofidential, and you've got to sign a notarized statement at the end of it and sign it yourself.

(?) OK.

(Notary) OK. I am - I am hear no evil, speak no evil, see no evil.

[MD: Then he must be wearing an iron mask.] (?) xxx (Notary) No problem.

(?) Especially.

(Lynn) Isn't that part of the ethics of being a notary?

(Notary) Yes, it is.

(Lynn) Confidentiality?

(Notrvu) It is. And I also have - I'm also bonded.

(Lynn) You're bonded, right?

(Notary) I'm bonded and insured.

(?) OK.

(Lynn) How much money could we make if you...we need money.

(Notary) I'm bonded 50,000. For 50,000. I took an extra amount. Xxxx Normally it's xwr. Xxx.

(?) With in-PR.

(?) Hmmm?

(?) To answer to your question xxx PR.

(Lynn) You need our driver's license, everybody who signs this document?

(Notary) No. Personal. Xxx personal.

(Erwin) OK. Time to go?

(?) Alberto, you can send him a bottle of wine.

(Erwin) xxx copies of this.

(Lynn) Erwin and Sylvia need to sign up there on the phone numbers and comm lines.

(Erwin) It's enough if I sign it, that's not - that's not a necessary that my wife signs it. I just know what I sign xxx.

(?) Alright.

Lots of noises, pens, someone clcurging on desk, etc.

(?) Agreements.

(?) It's a Dissolution of partnership. Dissolution, it's a dissolving of a partnership.

(Female) xxx at the bottom here?

(?) You just got to do it on one page. The last page.

(Erwin) What do you do with the first page? Xx notarized?

(Jennifer) xxx contract. It's like the second page, you don't sign - you don't do on every page of it.

(Erwin) This, is page one? Xxx Page one of two?

Some similar discussion about pages, hard to hear (?) Everybody wants copies of these?

(?) Yeah.

(Erwin) Do we get a notarized copy of this, or what?

Someone on the phone right by the recorder, can't hear (Lynn) You make two copies and two originals?

(Erwin) I want - no, you make a copy of this and you notarize a copy.

(Lynn) OK.

Lots of cross talk about notarization (?) Law firm. Xxx file. No one can get to it. Any sensitive stuff that you have, just take it to your attorneys and - are you familiar with that, Erwin?

Gaps of no talking while they do paperwork (?) I thought there was more.

(Jennifer) Kill two birds with one stone here.

(Some murmuring about this and that as they sign, then someone thanking someone - female -for her help; comment to her that is strictly confidential. She says, "No problem".) This part also ends the part that wets only on the other tape.

(Lynn) So you didn't put anything in here that you and Eve would assist Erwin and liaise and do all of that now...

(Brian) What, you know, I've been asked by you guys to do that, which I wanted to do, I, I, I am willing to work with Eve, it's sort of up to Erwin to - if they want to accept the cooperation or m- I'm really willing to xxx (Erwin) Eve, Eve is doing a lot of stuff for Top Marketing, like getting the tools sold, etc. I have no idea, I have to talk to Eve first on how much money's coming in to Top Marketing, and when we are we going to do. I don't Icnow how much TradeNet takes to Top Marketing, because if I have fired each one of them,...

(Bill) 6,000 bucks a week.

(Erwin) What's that?

(?) 6,000 bucks a week.

(Female) For payroll.

(Erwin) Uh huh.

(Bill) And that little FP mess-up last week was handled. Approved in two different weeks and somebody ran it through 12,000 for xxxx6,000 xxx. But then the other 6,000..

(Erwin) OK, so I need to - yeah, Eve will get in touch with you, Brian.

(Brian) OK, I just have to...

(Erwin) I will have to talk to her tonight.

(Brian) Yeah.

(Erwin) Do you have any private number of her none of my numbers seem to work?

(Sylvia) We definitely need to have one on the xxx xxx.

(?) OK. That's fine...

(Erwin) And would John Collins maybe, I mean, the $30,000 that he's going to get from that, it's doubtful but if he wants to get the shares, and give me 70...

(Bill) OK, I will call him today, I...

(Erwin) Because I'm going to send him the merchandise back. The main thing is the 10,000 books, that's what the xxx is all about that I'm sitting on.

(Sylvia) Yeah.

(Erwin) ...I'm sitting on.

(?) And you have all of those, still, or-?

(Erwin) Oh, about 9,000 of them.

(?) Geez.

(?) What books are those?

(Sylvia) I would send them back.

(Bill) Force Drive It Forever books. Bob Cekorsky's book. That's what it is, right?

(?) Yeah.

(?) That's what it is, right?

(?) Yeah.

(Brian) OK. Um, well, if it's OK with you, I just need to have an OK with you if I originate to Eve, if I need to coordinate with her on something...

(Erwin) Uh, xxx, I personally need the money back from John Collins.

(Brian) No, that's not - no, I got that...

(Sylvia) No, no...

(Erwin) And I think that there is an ethical point, too, if he wants me so much out of the game, then he should take responsibility, not take my money, uh, use the product and then offer it to the EDC as a copy of our globe. Do you see what I mean?

(Brian) I do,I do.

(Erwin) He has to take a look at that, too.

(Brian) But my question is, on these logistical things, if Eve's your choice, then like you're OK to be able to originate to her, to check with her on things, not only xxx.

(Erwin) Right. Right. I'll give her, I'll give her the parameter in which we can talk of this over.

(Brian) I'm not going to ask her about personal stuff, it'd sort of be like just like, 'OK, I'm doing this, do you have that ready?, I have this ready, do you have that ready?" type of thing.

(?) OK.

(?) Am I done2 Can I go now?

(?) Yeah.

(Lynn) Just one last point here in terms of my interest in the cooperation is that we both have a strong mutual necessity to phase out Top Marketing as soon as possible.

(Erwin) Yeah?

(Lynn) So that the agreement is here, this is to be done in such a way to avoid legal, financial liabilities for TradeNet and so on and so...

(Erwin) So I'll get with Weiner this week, I get with Weiner as soon as he has - he's available, and say "Listen, this, is the situation, we got the deadline of January 18th, what is the program?"

(?) Right.

(Erwin) And Weiner is good at that.

(Lynn) Yeah...well the thing, the thing I want to point out there is the necessity from the TradeNet side to make that thing disappear, because we have to in some way distance ourselves from it, as a legal position, for any, any, advertising claims, or anything made by Top Marketing...

(Brian) OK, I'll deal with it.

(Lynn) ...and on their part, they need to make this thing disappear as well.

(Brian) Well, that to me handles a concern. That already gives me a purpose. I know that to be true, the last thing that you said. So to me that gives me plenty of purpose. That's why I'm like, "Good", if I need to nudge her or if she needs something from me, I'm going to get it.

(Lynn) Yeah.

(Brian) Yeah.

(Lynn) So we're agreed upon that, that they'll work together and move this thing and finish what it is we discussed here as soon as possible.

(Bill) I just want to reiterate to - to you guys to make sure you clean all the stuff in your house that shouldn't be there, old Laundry Solution - I mean, I found Laundry Solution flyers, old ones, pinned up, taped up above the product display this weekend. So all that stuff that's got false or misleading information on it, that I screwed up on, just get rid of everything.

(?) Yeah. Absolutely.

(Bill) Everything.

(Lilly) And even the computer xxx, all the computers were cleaned up, you know? Anything that...

(?) Yeah, cut I have like xxx reports.

(Alberto?) I gotta go.

(?) OK.

(Alberto?) I gotta go and clean...

(End of second tape, second side) (Brian) End of meeting, 4:00.

END OF MICROCASSETTE RECORDING OF MEETING.

[END TRANSCRIPT]
-- Mark Dallara mdallara@kcii.com http://www2.kcii.com/users/dallara/

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