Raj1037 asked this question on 2/21/2000:

I was wondering.. what exactly goes through the minds of religious people when they feel the need to force their majority religion upon all minorities within the nation? The posting of the 10 commandments, christian prayer in schools, christian creationism in schools.. and so forth, would all would discriminate against everyone who is non-christian (25-35% of the nation).

Do they not realize this is directly imposing their beliefs onto others? How would they feel if Islamics were to force the Koran, Islamic teachings, and Islamic prayer onto them? What if they were taught Hindu creationism? How about if they had to walk past idols from other religions everyday at school?

Are these things just completely out of their minds? I personally am an atheist, and I can't believe these people want to make the same mistakes the catholics did in England a few hundred years ago. This nation was founded and had such a large colonial population because they were trying to escape religious persecution. Have they completely forgotten that?

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/22/2000:

It is because in Christianity we are to become active in telling others about God and tell them about Christ and salvation.

also the ten commandments are a set of moral rules that should not be against anyone religion, the Muslims, Christians, Jewish all make claim to the old testement which contain it. The talking of morals from schools are part of the problem in school. A time to pray or meditate at the start of service, the requirement of the teaching of ethics or moral values in school should be a requirement as should uniforms which would get rid of gand clothing

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/22/2000:

Well first of all, your religion is no different from any other.. but we can discuss that better in the atheism category.

Secondly, the commandments say things like trust in god, etc which are clearly religious. If you think you're going to put up a few words on a wall and solve any problems at all.. think again. Having religion forced upon me would actually make me more prone to violent behavior. I know many christians that feel the same way.

A christian friend of mine (deeply religious) said "If it makes even one person uncomfortable because of their religion or lack of religion, I don't think it should be done. Christianity isn't about forcing your religion onto other people, it's about love and teaching by example."

As for the teaching of moral values, again.. prayer would get you the exact opposite result. Also, uniforms would take away freedom.. which will simply lead to even more violence and less of your moral values.

The entire sexual revolution and rebelling stage in society started because of christian repression. Female repression, the Victorian era, the complete control of our young.. what did it lead to? The swinging 60's.

If you put a cookie (representing freedom, sex, etc) in front of a child (representing society) for 100 years, then they decide to rebel and eat the cookie.. what do you think is going to happen? Do you think they're going to take little nibbles of everything and be satisfied? No.. they are going to eat as much as they can get. This is what happened to our society, and you are trying to repeat your mistakes.

By attempting to swing us back into your extreme.. society will swing us right back into another sexual slutfest with drugs on every street corner. You will repeat your mistakes in this cycle forever. No.. what we need is to do is to stay away from extremes. We need to give society a chance to calm down, and teach morals.. not force them.

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/23/2000:

that is what is wonderful about American also, everyone can have an opinion

You can twist the truth to the "modern" way of thinking since that is the politicaly correct viewpoint, but that does not make it correct.

Christians have rights also, and we should be free to assert our beliefs

and freedom of religion did not mean freedom from religion either. The constutution was based on belief in God , and the right to worship GOD the way we wish. If we take God out of our country we must also remove the constutuion because it was based on God.

so remember that it is the belief in God that allows you the right now to believe

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/23/2000:

Nowhere in the bible does it say to post the 10 commandments on school walls in which non-christians are present. Never in the bible does it say to pray in public where non-christians are present, Matthew 6 actually says you should NOT pray in public. The bible also says christians coming together are stronger, but never does it say to pray in public where non-christians are present. These are things you have made up.

Also, you are very much so free to worship your religion. You can pray wherever the hell you want as long as you don't force others to listen, you can post the commandments in your home, you can go to church (which is not taxed, btw).. what you CAN'T do is infringe upon the rights of others. You do infringe upon other's rights when you force them to look at your religious documents in government buildings, when you force them to listen to your prayer, and when you force them to learn your form of creationism.

You have to remember, the government must protect the rights of ALL citizens, not only the ones you like. You are very much so free to worship all you want, but what you can't do is post the commandments in school buildings- or muslims, sikhs, jews, wiccans, buddhists, taoists, or one of the other 1,000 religions on the face of the planet must be allowed to do the same. If your religion is to be taught in schools, all religions are to be taught in schools. That means every religion that has ever existed, this would take grades k-12 if you teach one religion a day. I highly doubt that would have the effect you want.

No one is saying you can't worship god buddy, we're just saying you can't force others to worship your god. That is exactly what you are doing. Hell, a line in the Koran says to kill all the non-believers, are they allowed to kill you now?

The constitution in no way is based upon your religion. Obvious things stand out- First of all George Washington, Ben Franklin, John Adams, Abe Lincoln, Thomas Jefferson, Douglas Adams, just to name a few.. were all non-christians. They were all either deists, atheists, agnostics, or other religions. Secondly, the constition and many other government documents clearly state that 1. Our law system is in no way based upon Christianity, 2. The government will have no part in religion.

"Leave the matter of religion to the family altar, the church and the private schools, supported entirely by private contributions. Keep the church and state forever separated." [Ulysses S. Grant, speech to the Army of the Tennessee, Des Moines, Iowa, 1875]

"I believe in an America where the separation of church and state is absolute- where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishoners for whom to vote--where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference--and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him." [President John F. Kennedy]

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/24/2000:

Disagree with you on several issues,

first just a reminder, the Muslims and the Jews both accept the Old Testement, Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same God, and the 10 commandments should not offend them if they truely understand their own religion

But as to the President, if he is truely a believer then he would follow the teaching of the church, anything less shows less than true conviction

And I give a complete rundown on who to vote for to everyone who will listen. I rate the canidates on abortion, civil rights, equal rights, past political voting and plain honesty even if I disagree with their ideas I can trust them to do what they say.

The hope is with the truth they will vote for the person that represents their views best.

That is better than voting for someone just because of political party, ( one system that needs to be done away with, along with primarys, elelctorial college and the host of political systems that allow special interest groups to invade the political system)

Only with God as the center of our nation will it ever have any hope of lasting, I would rather see it where each person is allowed a educational vocher and allowed to pick their schools but since the government requires us, unless we are rich enough to send kids to private school, to go to their schools then we have the right to require them to accept our religions if we are in the majority in that school systems, that is the basis of American, the right of the majority to elect and vote on issues so that the government is ran in their interest.

When the courts rule against the majority interest then they are violating the very 'rights' that the country was set up for

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/24/2000:

"first just a reminder, the Muslims and the Jews both accept the Old Testement, Christians, Muslims and Jews all worship the same God, and the 10 commandments should not offend them if they truely understand their own religion" Most jews and muslims would much disagree. They also are not the only religions here. Did you even know that 10-15% of the nation is atheist?

"But as to the President, if he is truely a believer then he would follow the teaching of the church, anything less shows less than true conviction" The president must ensure the rights of ALL citizens. If he cannot do this, he doesn't belong there. Personal faith or views do not matter worth shit when it comes to government, as that applies to all citizens.

"That is better than voting for someone just because of political party, ( one system that needs to be done away with, along with primarys, elelctorial college and the host of political systems that allow special interest groups to invade the political system)" Vote for the political views, not the religious ones. You have your church, and your stupid tv shows for that. Most christians don't care about any actual issues, they showed that when they voted in large numbers for Bush in South Carolina. I didn't hear Bush say a single thing about any actual politics.

"Only with God as the center of our nation will it ever have any hope of lasting" Tough chance, every nation we have ever seen on this planet that has had a god at the center of their view system has fallen and burned.

"I would rather see it where each person is allowed a educational vocher and allowed to pick their schools but since the government requires us, unless we are rich enough to send kids to private school" What you are forgetting is that government money comes from me and everyone else in the nation. I am NOT going to pay so that your son can learn his religion. If he wants to go to public school, that's fine with me. If you want him to do anything different, YOU pay for it.

"to go to their schools then we have the right to require them to accept our religions if we are in the majority in that school systems, that is the basis of American, the right of the majority to elect and vote on issues so that the government is ran in their interest." They already accept your religion, you simply can't force everyone there to. The majority cannot discriminate against all of the minorities in the process though, you idiot. Otherwise women never would have gotten the right to vote, blacks never would have been freed, etc.

You are allowed to exercise your views as long as they don't infringe upon someone else's, what part of that don't you understand? You seem to be forgetting why this country was founded in the first place. You're ignoring why so many colonials came here.... freedom of religion. The church had such strict control of England, everyone came running away from it. Now you want to repeat their mistakes, isn't that just great. I thought there was a point to which people could be ignorant, but you seem to have proven me wrong.

I think you need to go live in Iran or another one of those countries where Islam is forced upon you. Then tell me it's just fine if the majority forces their religion upon you. No... our nation was made to keep this from ever happening. If you want to take away our freedoms, you will lose yours as well in the process.

You think you will do good by posting the commandments in public, praying in school and making everyone else hear it, teaching your out of date creationism (All of which is not in the bible at all, you're just idiots who don't even read the damn thing. Just listen to your preacher.. he says post them, so hey, lets post them!)...? Well guess what, you know the 15% of atheists in this country, and the other 20% of minorities and deists, along with the 25% of the world that is atheist, along with a total of 67% that is non-christian...... that is a huge mass of people you know. You think you're going to make them happy? No... you will wake up this giant and fill it with rage. You also forget another thing.. most christian teens disagree with you.

If these laws of yours are ever passed, I will personally go to every school in my city and all neighboring cities and tear them down. I will personally burn all of your creationism books in school. I will personally shut up every praying christian at school.. I also will not be alone. Don't be an idiot, stop trying to take our rights away, or we'll just be forced to do the same.

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/24/2000:

and I am winning their souls to Christ one at a time and helping many find reasons to wake up in the morning and find meaning to their lives.

And I will fight for every right I can get just like the other minorites do, I see them sliping away each day. I have filed several Federal issues through the years to have the right to spread the gospel. So far have not lost one. When christians can not wear symbols of their faith to work, have private pray at lunch, school children can not pray at noon in private groups ( not forcing others) You will see me at the Flag Pole each year when they have the annual prayer. I do respect the religions of others, as Prison Chaplin, we helped prepare for the Muslim service, ( did not have interest in the Jewish meetings ) and a couople of other newer groups that meet prison guidelines.

And I do not believe that anyone is a true athiest anyway, man by his desire has a inner need to believe in something, most of todays have put theirselves in the role of God, believing that man is the center of all things, and do not want to admit that they are not the center of all creation

And of course creation, anyother idea that science has come up with is much harder to believe than creation

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/24/2000:

I don't know where you live, but students here (California) are allowed to pray privately whenever they want as long as others will not hear what they are saying. Students hold hands around the flagpole in the morning, muslims throw our their blankets and pray throughout the day.. etc. You already have those rights, however.. the only thing government says you can't do is things like posting the commandments, or having prayer during actual school time, and most of all.. no teaching creationism from one religion. There are world religions classes that will teach you about all major faiths, is that not enough?

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/25/2000:

at least one point we can agree, I would be happy with the freedom that is found in California, that is far from the case in many other states, California is where I studied law but have never been able to get back there since my younger days

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/25/2000:

Yes, I'm happy with current laws in California as well.

Its the posting of the 10 commandments, and christian prayer/creationism in schools I'm against.

This is what my original message was about.

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/25/2000:

and I don't have to have them in the schools either, christian if they really believe should have them in their hearts, and if they would live them would be a far better example than a placq on the wall that usually would not get read anyway

Just love to see if someone will stand up for their beliefs, glad to see that you are a person of principle,even if we don't agree.

Now not saying it would not be nice to have them,

How about a posting of principle or values lying, stealing, leaving reference to God out?

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/25/2000:

I would love some values or morals on the wall that do not include god or religious ideals, but they won't do anything I'm afraid.

Telling people to not steal, or not to kill, or even things like not to do drugs doesn't work. If billions of dollars in ads and posters about smoking and drugs haven't had much effect.. I doubt a few morals on a wall will.

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/26/2000:

quess you are right on that, just wish I did have an answer to drugs and crimes

and morals

we had someone steal the plaqus out of one of the downtown churches last week ( it was the stations of the cross if you know what that means, maybe not if you are not catholic) how sad can you get

Raj1037 asked this follow-up question on 2/26/2000:

Well everytime anyone tries anything, someone whines. Like they had traffic stops in Indiana to sniff cars for drugs, and everyone thought it was against the 4th amendment. Oh come on, the only people that would think that was against their rights are the people who go around transporting drugs in the first place.

About 10% of the stops they made resulted in drugs, they should be allowed to continue that. The case is going to the supreme court now, its up to them.

Fr_Chuck gave this response on 2/26/2000:

that is a good issue,they still have them in high drug areas, almost every time I travel down North street in West Atlanta, they have a road block up

The average rating for this answer is 5.

Raj1037 rated this answer a 5.

Nice conversation, I'm glad we ended up in agreement at the end. Feel free to continue our chats via email ( raj1037@yahoo.com )