Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology From: dennis.l.erlich@support.com Subject: HOLY TOLEDO, BATMAN! (WAS Message-ID: <9508071807.0PGOO02@support.com> References: <3vs3qi$mvj@nt.colmicrosys.com> Organization: L.A. Valley College Public BBS (818)985-7150 X-Mailer: TBBS/PIMP v3.35 Distribution: world Date: Mon, 07 Aug 95 18:07:32 -0700 Lines: 144 noring@netcom.com (Jon Noring) >mrbnsn@public.bta.net.cn (Michael Robinson) writes: > Seems to be worth checking out, if you're looking for the Fishman filing. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Michael Robinson INTERNET: mrbnsn@public.bta.net.cn > Beijing Cognitive Science Laboratory Jon: >Michael just posted the ftp site of where to obtain the Fishman Declaration, >a U.S. public court document which contains the Church of Scientology's >so-called secret OT levels as exhibits. +--------------------------------+ >URL: ftp://info.bta.net.cn/incoming/fishman > >or anonymous ftp to info.bta.net.cn /incoming +--------------------------------+ >What makes this interesting is that the copy is located in mainland China! >As Grady Ward just mentioned, China is not signatory to one or more of the >copyright treaties (is this correct?), thus, in a legal sense CoS may not >have any recourse to have the materials removed. The issue of intellectual property rights is one of the main and most serious, which, unless successfully negotiated, will prevent China from becoming a member of the international economic community. Chinese knock-offs of patented and copyrighted material make up a huge blackish/grey market, I understand. It's unlikely that the US gummint will bother the Chinese about the bogus scieno claim to remove unsealed US court documents. The question of millions of dollars in logos, tee-shirts, computer chips, software, and entertainment property rights are a bit more "front-burner" in the discussions. Besides, the Chinese would make serious propaganda out of the US trying to "stifle free speech on the internet" in order to protect the operations of a money-laundering, capitalist, rip-off, pyramid-fraud (posing as a religion) that preys on the most naive and idealistic citizens. >All they can do is appeal >to this Chinese site and/or make a request of the Chinese government, and >hope for the best (they could also request the U.S. State Department to make >the request for them). I wonder if Michael plans to contact the Chinese >government first to prepare them for what will come? I wonder if somebody >here will contact the Chinese consulate here in the U.S. to let them know >what is going on? I wonder if CoS will try to sue Michael Robinson because >he appears to be an American citizen? They will write a polite letter to the site requesting co-operation. That's probably all. And it should be ignored by whoever receives it. >And do expect this post to be illegally canceled by the "Cancel Poodle", who >is still running around the net pissing on fire hydrants. Thus, do copy this >and repost it elsewhere, at least as long as the Fishman Declaration is still >available at this Chinese site. I will repost this if it is cancelled, unless >I get a valid request from RTC to stop posting this (but I can't control what >others do, of course). > >I wonder if users in other countries (outside of the U.S.) will follow >Michael's lead and do the same thing with this and the Scamizdat documents? >Finland is one country that comes to mind as they got egg on their face when >CoS came storming in under highly irregular circumstances to raid Penet. >Thus, it will be much tougher for CoS to convince the Finnish government (and >other governments I can think of) to have the Fishman Declaration removed, even >though it is publicly available in the U.S. (can you imagine the government >official asking: "You're saying the Fishman Declaration is a publicly >available U.S. court document, yet you want me to remove it because you say >it violates copyright laws?"!) I cannot imagine that any court in their right mind could put a restriction on the publication of available court documents. If such censorship exists and is permitted to stand, we are all in deep doo-doo. I would draw the line there. Depending on how Judge Whyte rules, I will undoubtedly want to make detailed comments on all the scieno's alleged trade sekrit econo-sakrid droppings. What fun! >(Denmark, Germany, Spain, and France are >other countries that come to mind at the moment as *possibly* being wary of >any CoS request.) (Of course, I don't recommend anybody do this, but I have >no control over what others do.) Oh no, Jon. I thought you were running my body. Volunteers? >It surely would make it tougher for CoS to deal with the Internet if this >state of affairs were to happen. If I were the attornies at CoS, I'd >certainly be scared to death of losing both trade secret and copyright >status to these works, which is a *real* possibility (there have been noted >in court transcripts several irregularities in the copyright status of the >OT and other Church documents anyway). They better get moving, and fast! >They better get their international attornies revved up, as they may be >working overtime. (I'm not sure if U.S. trade secret laws extend elsewhere >in the world like copyrights do.) These issues are all under negotion with the Chinese as we speak. >BTW, until the copyright/trade secret status of the public court document is >ascertained (it is a very complex issue as beginning discussion on >misc.int-property indicates), it is wise not to keep a permanent electronic >copy of the Fishman Declaration, and if you do take the risk, to keep all the >exhibits intact (that is, don't separate the exhibits from the main document, >as that will probably change their legal status). Of course, the best course >is to go and get a copy from the court in question, CoS has not yet been >able to convince the court to seal the document -- it is publicly available >at this time and owning that paper copy is not illegal, otherwise the court >would not make it available. You realize how rediculous all this sounds. Having to take precautions about legally obtained, available to the public, court documents. This country is truly going nuts. >I do hope that Ms. Kobrin would post the CoS/RTC position on the status of >the Fishman Declaration. How about it, Helena? BTW, I'd like Helena to tell >us if any post containing the ftp address/URL to an archived copy of the >Fishman Declaration, like this one, is itself illegal, or on solid ground for >a lawsuit. Grrrrr. This is pissing me off! >Happy reading! >Jon Noring +--------------------------------------+ Rev. Dennis L Erlich * * the inFormer * * dennis.l.erlich@support.com + inForm@primenet.com "tar baby"