Path: rambo.bobo.net!xs4all!xs4all!bullseye.news.demon.net!demon!dispose.news.demon.net!demon!btnet-peer!btnet!newsfeed.berkeley.edu!su-news-hub1.bbnplanet.com!news.gtei.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master From: inFormer@informer.org (Rev Dennis Erlich) Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: "Shattered" minds Date: 21 Nov 1998 10:06:27 PST Organization: inFormer Ministry [a 501(c)3 non-profit, religious organization] "... in service of cult victims and their families." Message-ID: <365affbe.5713000@news.concentric.net> References: <36434818.32145259@news.tiac.net> <36526d02.43779474@news.tiac.net> <71ur44$n4n@enews2.newsguy.com> <3654234e.33527137@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3655d896.2083312@news.concentric.net> <733ojd$kn@enews1.newsguy.com> <7348qn$356@enews3.newsguy.com> <7353uf$fec$1@nnrp03.primenet.com> <736evf$7ae@enews1.newsguy.com> Reply-To: informer@informer.org NNTP-Posting-Host: ts029d37.lax-ca.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Lines: 97 Xref: rambo.bobo.net alt.religion.scientology:146504 "Rebecca Hartong" : BP wrote in message <7353uf$fec$1@nnrp03.primenet.com>... >> the Introspection Rundown. The Rundown _killed_ her. That said: rebecca >Just following orders, eh? Exactly. "Cultiehood" could be likened to the state of a deathcamp guard. You see the smoke, you taste the stench, but your obedience conditioning constantly tells you, you are on the side that will make everything right eventually. >Without invoking Godwin's Law, I think if you >give a little thought to the historical precedents for that defense, you'll >realize that it isn't usually successful. There is no defense. And wasn't it you that said something about no blame. Then you put defense into my mouth. Who said I'm defending? >It is every individual's >responsibility to disobey orders- Most children are taught otherwise. >-even orders issued by "applied religious >philosophies"--when those orders are unethical or otherwise harmful. Sometimes you can't correctly gauge. >When >people fail to disobey stupid or dangerous orders the field of >responsibility enlarges to include those people. Agreed. The unwitting dupe becomes the perpetrator. >I presume that you don't >really misunderstand the meaning of "responsibility" when it's used in this >context. I think I grasp it, but perhaps you could expand my understanding. >It is for this reason that I believe the >individuals who made those choices for Lisa are at least as much to blame >for her death as is the practice of Scientology itself. Lisa is one of the people who might herself have cared for another Isolation Step victim. >Some people, though, may well get worse as a direct result of their >involvement in Scientology. That's too bad, but I believe people do have a >right to make stupid choices about how they're going to live their lives. No one wants to take away the right to chose. I'd just like to take dangerous choices off the market. A kind of recall program, for dangerous scams. >As it turns out, most people who make the choice to become involved with >Scientology do realize that they've made a mistake within a fairly short >period of time and they quit. Most people don't go in at all. So what? It doesn't deserve the scrutiny of the government, simply because "most people" don't die from cockroach bites? >>Scientology Kills, Hartong Apologizes. > >If Scientology kills, it must not be very good at it. You have no idea how many lives it has shattered, Rebecca. They claim 8 million. I think it's a low estimate. >Considering the 50 or >so years that Scientology's been around, you'd think there would be >mountains of bodies piled up. No, Scientology doesn't kill. Stupid and/or >cruel individuals kill. The policies and practices of the cult assure the necessity of placing people in harmful, dangerous and potentially fatal circumstances. It is how Rinder could assure the city of Clearwater it would never happen again at the Ft. Homicide: such people (type 3, pts's) will not be allowed at the hotel in the future. [translation: we will incarcerate people elsewhere as called for in the HCOBs relating to the Introspection R/D and the handling of psychotic breaks and type 3 pts's] No, Rebecca. When you can turn good people into fanatics, ideas kill. Rev Dennis Erlich * * the inFormer * *