Path: rambo.bobo.net!xs4all!xs4all!newsfeed.wirehub.nl!howland.erols.net!newsfeed.concentric.net!207.155.183.80.MISMATCH!global-news-master From: inFormer@informer.org (Rev Dennis Erlich) Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: "Shattered" minds Date: 22 Nov 1998 20:30:19 PST Organization: inFormer Ministry [a 501(c)3 non-profit, religious organization] "... in service of cult victims and their families." Lines: 123 Message-ID: <365ede2e.6567951@news.concentric.net> References: <36434818.32145259@news.tiac.net> <36526d02.43779474@news.tiac.net> <71ur44$n4n@enews2.newsguy.com> <3654234e.33527137@nntp.ix.netcom.com> <3655d896.2083312@news.concentric.net> <733ojd$kn@enews1.newsguy.com> <734o85$951@enews3.newsguy.com> <365c2152.3961610@news.concentric.net> <73714t$8ea@enews2.newsguy.com> <366021c8.14427585@news.concentric.net> <7391qn$2se@enews3.newsguy.com> Reply-To: informer@informer.org NNTP-Posting-Host: ts038d21.lax-ca.concentric.net Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Newsreader: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 X-No-Archive: yes Xref: rambo.bobo.net alt.religion.scientology:146902 "Rebecca Hartong" : yhn >> Ah, the famous "Get Over It" therapy of Dr. Tuffluv! I've heard >>lots about this. Could you cite any studies that show this therapy >>has proven safe and effective for recovering cultists? rebecca >I don't know that any studies have been done. Of course not. >I suspect, though, that >recovering cultists are not really all that different from people who have >come out of abusive marriages. I thought that comparison would also be judged offensive. But I don't know to whom, exactly. Anyway, yes. There would be comparable recovery issues. >In cases such as that, cognitive therapy >(learning to change the way you think without spending a lot of time >worrying about *why* you think the way you do) has been helpful. I also see cognitive therapy as one of the most valuable tools in recovery. >> No. But you still recommend it for treatment of that "not so fresh >>feeling" we exers seem to be left with? > >Yes. A big part of the problem I see with some former cult members is that >they are locked into black-and-white thinking and a sense of victimhood. Please name the former cult members on the ng to whom you think your problem applies. >Mind you, I'm aware that this impression of mine is based on very VERY >limited information (what I've been reading here on a.r.s. primarily) and >may be completely off. I think you are trying to take the whole battered wife thing too far. Most cult victims, like those ripped off by any scam, think it's their fault, and are trying to relieve their guilt over their own vulnerability. >I think it's offensive because I think it is completely wrong. It reminds >me of the Scientologists comparing themselves to Holocaust victims. Funny that you should dismiss the comparison, especially coming from someone with experience, without even requesting clarification of why it might apply. Shows me you think you know about it already. Why bother trying to tell you anything? Wtf do I know, after all? >>>You joined Scientology of your own >>>free will. >> And the date-rape victim went with the rapist of her own free will. >>>You stayed with it for --what?-- something around 12 years. >> She got drunk, making herself more vulnerable. And stayed while >>the making out was progressing to petting. >12 years is a hell of a long time to stay drunk. I believe that's my point. There was something in that drink. >Here's how it looks from where I'm sitting: > >You go out on a date. You fall in love. You get married! Everything seems >really good for a while: the sex is good, the companionship is good, you're >happy. Gradually, though, your spouse starts to behave in ways you either >hadn't seen before or you had overlooked in the excitement of new love. He >starts acting..well..creepy. And sometimes violent. He starts making >demands that--now that the first blush of love has worn off--don't sit very >well with you. Still, you comply because you do love him. One time, he >even locks you in the basement. A part of you knows you ought to leave, but >you still have a lot of love for him. You know that deep inside he's a good >person. Plus, since you've been together for a while, all his friends are >also your friends. Where could you turn, if you did decide to leave? >Eventually, though, it gets so unpleasant that you do finally leave. It's >hard. > >That's a pretty bad scene, but it's not rape. In the mean time he experiments on you by making you do things in exactly the way he wants and making you think certain things, and confess your thoughts, etc. You have a rosy picture of cult life, kid. >> This story accurately describes Lisa McPherson's experience in the >>cult. > >I don't think either one of has the complete story of how Lisa McPherson >really felt about Scientology prior to her final breakdown. You've never seen the breakdowns, so you don't know anything, it's true. >Not having been raped yourself, I don't know that you're in any better >position to make comparisons than am I. At least I have some idea what it's like to be in a cult and be mindfucked. >There are advantages to being on the outside looking in. One doesn't need much of a reason to remain ignorant, either. >Objectivity isn't >always such a bad thing. I suggest you try some yourself. Or perhaps you'd rather discuss cult involvement with an ornithologist rather than a scienotologist. You might be able to convince the birdwatcher you knew something about the subject. Rev Dennis Erlich * * the inFormer * *