more on the Goddess

   Hee, hee, haw, herr, snort. . . .   
   That's a good way to have the people who bother others in the air  
ports to leave. Just don't let them get a word in edge-wise, and point  
out that unless the accept Lilith as their personal Savior they will freeze  
in the fridged ice of BiFrost (to mix mythologies). Then ofer to convert  
them by the "laying on of hands", saying that once done they will belong  
to the Mother of Demons, and daughter of lies. 
 * Origin: Astro-Net (714) 662-2294 Make Luv, not Warhol (Opus 1:103/503)

FROM:      Judy Harrow
TO:        Bo Orloff
Subject:   more Satanic thoughts
Date:      14 Mar 88 14:33:22

Had a few more thoughts about my post to you last night:
1) If I wanted my religious practice to be primarily about opposition to
Christianity, I actually think Satanism would be the most elegant choice,
even now, because it would put the anti-Christian overlay onto whatever
else I was trying to express - including the kinds of things we've
already explored as commonalities.
2) On the other hand, if *I* was going to get into reactive religion, it
would probably still not be about Christianity, since I was raised Jewish
and whatever bones I may have to pick are there. The parallel for me to
the Satanism you describe would probably be some cult (in the original
sense) of Lilith. Lilith is in fact being used in some places as the
centerpiece of a feminist rejection of Judaism, and this is much more
tempting to me than Satanism at its best. I'd still rather try to be
about building something new rather than destroying something old.
But through Lilith I can find more empathy with Satan's appeal.
									  warmly / Judy

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Judy Harrow
Subject:   Lilith
Date:      16 Mar 88 23:12:31

To: Judy Harrow

	  Hi! Welcome back. I heard you mentioning Lilith (message 03/14/88)
(She hit me with a riding crop and yelled "Stick up for me, jerk!" in
my ear (while I was trying to sleep, as is usually the case when She comes

	  I think She isn't really "Evil" or the archetypical "female Satan".
Perhaps I would even go so far as to say she got a bum rap from that slob
husband of hers, and their Father (they were Brother and Sister, after all).
The Zohar (III 19b) said that since Woman sinned first, Man would have
dominion over Her. It was when She refused to be "diminished" that she
was made evil.

	  "God thereupon said to her, 'Go and diminish thyself'." (Zohar, Sperling
and Simon 1:7) But that was against her nature. Her male MASTERS called
it "rebellion", but She called it (calls it) "survival." For this she
was made evil. She ran away to the red desert, and lived in a cave.

	  Adam, as the "First Man" (i.e. "Primal Man", "All-Man", etc.) went
and complained to their Father, God. He said "The Woman Thou hast given
me hath run away." He desired her only for her sexuality (he wraped a
thorn bush round his waist for 135 years so he couldn't have sex with Eve,
but late at night Lilith would visit him).

JH>  Lilith is in fact being used in some places as the centerpiece of a
JH>  feminist rejection of Judaism, and this is much more tempting to me than
JH>  Satanism at its best.

	  I think these people have to go one layer deeper, and see WHY Lilith
rejects. My opinion is that every woman must some day become Lilith, if only
for a month or two, to really know themselves as women. The seductress in
every woman should have an outlet that is free of guilt. If a woman refuses
to acknowledge her Lilith, Lilith will force the issue (as every God/dess

	  Just my obscure, pontifical drivel, with perhaps a shade of "Truth"
to it. Though She is big enough to fight for herself, I can't help going
to her side. There are times I've actualy felt her in my room with me!

FROM:      Judy Harrow
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      17 Mar 88 14:57:00

Goodness, did you think I was *against* Lilith? No way. The smaller me is
against Jahweh and the nasty bully numbers he laid on us for 3,000 years.
When the best I can be is a rebel - and that's not *bad* per se - Lilith
is at my side.
	 What I'm really saying, though, is that I like to think that the time
to tear down has passed and the time to rebuild is beginning. Instead of
spending my energy on opposing the bad old ways, I want to be part of
creating the new.
	 Some local musicians have a song whose chorus goes like this:
	  "We are brothers of the forest
			We are sisters of the Goddess
		We are nothing without each other
			If we let it die, there'll be no other
		Call Sky Father; call Earth Mother."
	 I want to go all the way back to the roots, to names as simple as
Earth and Sky, (my people's names: Umai and Tengri), and build something
for our own time from there.            warmly / Judy

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Judy Harrow
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      18 Mar 88 18:12:24

	 I wonder if it's possible to go back "to the roots?" It's so darn
messed up! The roots seem to have been pulled up with a bulldozer and set
to the torch.

	 At the basic level ("Primative Human" like Lilith and Adam, I wonder
if one would be "happy" living in this era? There's little doubt in my
mind that we would, if allowed to go back to the roots, be locked up with
a tag taped to our forehead "INSANE" or "HOMOSEXUAL" or "NUT CASE."

	 It's probably too late to change many things to the good (or back to
what was once "good"). There's too much pressure to push (fight?)
against. Remember in 1st grade the class bully forcing cigarettes on the
other students? If you didn't smoke it, you were nobody.

	 (This is not very concise comments, but I know you know what I mean.)

FROM:      Martha Brummett
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      19 Mar 88 15:56:00

Good stuff about Lilith and her bad press.  (But you are one of the few
knowledgable devotees of the Dark Moon.)

I have some friends who are recognizing their heritage *and* their
feminism by recognizing Lilith, but know little of what they are doing
beyond that.

And I haven't had Goldstein-Jacobson's L. ephemeris out for a long
time, either.  Do you find any definite correlations with anything?

FROM:      Dave Aronson
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      20 Mar 88 20:25:22

	 I don't recall seeing any mention of Lilith when I was reading

the Bible.  Where does the story of Lilith come from?


FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Martha Brummett
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      21 Mar 88 09:21:41

	Yes! I could tell you about the lady who had Lilith on Venus in the
VIIth house to the minute, but you'd not believe it. I think she had no
idea why she was acting the way she did towards men (she'd see how many
she could "get", and then ignore them afterwards).  She was not very

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Cybele Selene
Subject:   Lilith
Date:      21 Mar 88 09:24:36

	 There's a great painting called "Lust", with a snake wraped around a
naked woman. That's my Lilith! (Heavy sigh)

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Dave Aronson
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      21 Mar 88 09:25:42

	"Where does Lilith come from?"

	Before 533, I think, She WAS in the Christian Bible. At any rate, She
is very much in the Zohar (S.S. Translation is very good).

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Draco ...
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      24 Mar 88 20:15:16

	It's rather too late to make a new "American Tradition." It's an ages
old saying that a people deserve their rulers. But I think our masters
(Reagan, Chief Gates, Olie North, et al) deserve US. I find it far too
easy to lay on my mat watching T.V. and saying "Someone should do
something about that," and then foreget it.

	I've dreamed of starting/reestablishing a Lilith cult, that takes in
battered, harrased, raped and abused women, and teaching them their own
power and divinity. Wouldn't it be great if three hundred women, dressed
in snake skins and leather, marched en masse for women's rights?
	We could hold a bar-be-que every menstrual cycle, dancing naked under
the moon on the beach, chanting:

	Got Hay!
	Got HAY!
	Para Got Hay!
	Para Som Got HAY!
	Bo De
	Swa Ha!

	(Roughly: Peace to those living and dead.)

	 With a Nation of rootless, drifting people, who are by nature
extreamists, the time smells (stinks) ripe for a new "messiah" the common
folk can rally around, like Hitler, Jim Jones, and Jerry Fallwell. Maybe
we'll grow up some day?

FROM:      Daniel Segard
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      23 Mar 88 12:27:00

> Before 533, I think, She WAS in the Christian Bible.

	 Seems unlikely.  Considering that the most probable place for
mention of Lilith to be made would be in Genesis.  But the Genesis of
the Christian Bible is about the same as the Genesis of the Torah.  And
I don't think that Lilith is mentioned in the Torah.  Perhaps an
extraneous book?  If so, which one?  Check your sources.
--- QuickBBS v2.00 (Beta v0.01)
 * Origin: The 8th Sea (1:104/610)

FROM:      Raven Dragonrune
TO:        Dave Aronson
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      22 Mar 88 08:21:56

 She didn't get into the Bible...Jewish tradition has it that she was
created before Eve, and NOT from Adam's rib....She was, in effect, too uppity
and not servile enough, and survives in legend as a chief demon. Though I
have no evidence to support the speculation, I would suspect Lilith was a
pre-Hebrew goddess, or even a pre-Yaweh Hebrew deity: the gods and goddesses
of one religious era tend to become the devils of the next. Example: the
Xtians' Satan was not pictured as a horned figure until they encountered the
antler-crowned  nature god of Britain and northern Lilith was
probably the Goddess who had to be degraded to demon status when Mister
Four-Letter stepped in and fixed up Adam with his second wife....


FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Daniel Segard
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      25 Mar 88 11:03:12

	It's probable that Lilith IS in the Torah (sp?) but under a different
name. The Christian Bible calls her the flaming sword and the screaching

	It'd look it up for you, but I burned my bibles in Boulder a few
months back.

FROM:      Dave Aronson
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      24 Mar 88 10:48:20

	 Oy!  Time to display even MORE ignorance!  What's the Zohar?


FROM:      Martha Brummett
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      24 Mar 88 23:00:00

Sounds reasonable if she was not manifesting it on a high enough plane.
Goldstein used all kinds of similar examples, but I believe it can be a
fantastic influence if used properly.

FROM:      Raven Dragonrune
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      23 Mar 88 09:17:00

 My Lilith: the Richard Avedon photo, "Nastassia Kinski and the Serpent"...

  ***RAVEN*** Dragonsnake

FROM:      Cybele Selene
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Lilith
Date:      24 Mar 88 17:15:44

oooohhhh, i wanna see that picture! Do you remember who itas by or
anything?   Also, was real interested in what you said in your prior
message about the placement of Lilith in an astrological chart. This is
a new one to me....what IS Lilith in the chart? (am assuming its an
asteroid or something) Can you give some more info about what the
influence of it is? (would also love to know where mine is in my
chart..would you be willing to run that for me--i'm again
assuming..that your astro program does that 6/28/59
EDT, Wash DC, 12:34am)Any info appreciated....
B*B  *CS*

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Martha Brummett
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      26 Mar 88 14:32:36

	 I make such a poor Astrologer as I refuse to make a value
judgment on what "level" people are "spiritually". I know the person who
drives 90MPH in stop-and-go traffic is an asshole, but what happenes when
he sits in front of me and I must read his chart?

	 Though I can judge myself. I was lucky enough to have Dark Moon
Lilith on my Ascendant to the minute of arc (16 Virgo 16). My "level" of
using her energy is "She who turns herself away" (also true for Aphrodite
as well as Lilith). Some Lilith individuals become Hermits.

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Cybele Selene
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      26 Mar 88 15:08:11

  Hi! The painting is called "Sensuality," by Franz von Stuck. The person
who "owns" it lives here in Los Angeles. A Mister Abe Somer.

  Let's see. . . There are two Liliths that some Astrologers use. There
is The Dark Moon, which doesn't exist but still "works" On your birth day
it was around 27 Pis 48. The asteroid, which is real, is 13 Sag 10.

  Lilith is one of the "Warriors". She represents repressed anger and
conflict resolution. She was a hand maiden of Inanna. She represents the
Feminine as "Consort", but the kind who expects and demands respect. When
in a chart, I use her as "Where you express your independance", and also
"where you refuse to be deminished." Sexual fear, anger, and suspicion
for good measure.

  How to "use" Her? I've seen Her expressed as total repressed shutdown
of all feelings of desire and comfort. The high school librarian
archetype comes to mind. "Mother said sex was bad, but I want a man (any
man! And now!) so badly I must be "bad", so I'm going to repress and
sublimate it. I'll join a convent." Etc., etc. (Just my opinions, here,
remember please.)

  Men, of course, have Lilith issues as well. Suppose one fears that if
he gives into a woman sexually she will think he's "bad", and will
therefore leave him? These men will often choose celibacy to "put their
gonads on the chopping block" (as an astrology teacher expressed it to
his class). There is also a fear that these "base" emotions won't be
apreciated by the woman, so he avoids the issue totally.

  Lilith is the beatten woman, and perhaps the wife beater. She is also
the seductress. Lilith is everything a man could want in a woman, but few
men are "man enough" to keep her (it takes a very wise, powerful (not
physically but powerful intellect and compassion), and sensere individual
to please her). The "matcho" male sickens her. The "Apollonian" male is
more her type, but I think she prefers someone inbetween.

	I suppose the only way you can know about Lilith is to ask her. A
ritual to invoke her would be very dramatic. The kind that sends shivvers
down one's spine, with an icy breath followed by a hot, dry one.

	After one's "had" Lilith, one never goes back to second best (even
Adam couldn't forget her).

 * Origin: Astro-Net 714 662-2294 The Door Without A Key (Opus 1:103/503)

FROM:      Martha Brummett
TO:        Cybele Selene
Subject:   your Lilith placement
Date:      26 Mar 88 14:57:00

...should be 20 pi 02 or thereabouts by Goldstein's book.  It is
supposed to be a "dark moon" and has no astronomical validity at all.
I take it, as I get the impression David Rice does also, as akin to the
Uranian planets--only tangible in effect.

According to Goldstein--and I quote directly:

"Lilith is always SINISTER and MALEVOLENT in her intent...She is
ruled by that house.  Lilith rules TEMPTATION, SEDUCTION and

My experience with the point is that is has to do with one's
relationship to Feminism and women's power...  I've never seen such
stuff as she accuses it of.

In my chart it completes a Grand Quintile with Jupiter, Ascendant,
Moon, and Sun, so I like it *a lot*!

Goldstein's preferred sigil is a crossed zero (null).  I use a
double-bladed axe.

Since a planet/point's nature probably doesn't change in twenty years
(from publication of _The Dark Moon Lilith in Astrology_ to my use of
it when I was doing astrology heavily in the early eighties) I can only
assume that one's experience of it has a lot to do with attitude....

FROM:      Blanche Wattenberg
TO:        David Rice
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      28 Mar 88 21:03:35

DO you think myself and perhaps one or two others could get together
with you and try this? I've always had a thing for that Lady, and repressed
anger and resolving conflicts are my specialties. Even my job involves

FROM:      Leslie Harding
TO:        Daniel Segard
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      28 Mar 88 20:19:34

On the subject of Lilith's printed origins 'The Women's
Encyclopedia...'says Adams first wife was an early attempt to assimilate
the Sumero-Babylonian Goddess Belit-ili, or Belili, (jewish mythology).
As Baalat, the "Divine Lady" to the Canaanites. Also Lillake from a Ur,ca
2000 b.c. tablet. And info to check out the Great Mother showing up after
the slaying of Abel (genesis 4:11).   (Good Book that Encyclopedia) bb lh

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Blanche Wattenberg
Subject:   Re: Lilith
Date:      30 Mar 88 10:04:23

	I'd love to "work" with the great lady Lilith. How do we go about
getting ahold of people with Lilith problems when they 1) Hide behind
masks of indifference, 2) Strike first before anyone has a chance to
attack them, or 3) Death before dishonor?

	What we could do is gather Lilith people togeather, and build a room
with a Lilith atmosphere. Snakes, spears, black leather, condoms, etc.
Then we could yell at eachother, and call eachother names. Then serve

	This might very well release the frustration and repressed anger
Lilith represents. We can watch Spartakus, Ben Hur, and The Terminator
after the yelling match to calm us down.

	Do you have any suggestions? I don't know how She works on the human
level (purley mundane).

FROM:      David Rice
TO:        Dave Aronson
Subject:   What is the Zohar?
Date:      26 Mar 88 13:30:36

	 Zohar is a new drug that is rapidly replacing Cocain in Vogue here in
America. Anyone with a bath tub, copper tubing, and dirty socks can make
it by the ton. Send for your free how-to booklet today!

	 Oddly enough, it is also: A Kabbalistic work of the thirteenth
century which is atually a meditation on th Old (Hebrew) Testament. A
good english translation is published by Socino Press, London, 1984 by
Harry Sperling and Maurice Simon. That's all I know about it.