From: jonny vee To: all Mar-17-94 23:28:16 Subject: Hitler and friends ALL YOU CHRISTIANS WHO DENY THAT HITLER WAS A CHRISTIAN, DON'T READ THIS!!! I was just skimming through a book my mate has here, (_The Woman's Encyclopedia of Myths and Secrets_, by Barbara Walker, New York: Harper & Row, 1983, ISBN 0-06-250926-8) looking up some facts about the inquisition, when I stumbled across this interesting and perhaps enlightening quote: "Have religious institutions been any more humane in the process of consolidating their power than has secular machinery similarly occupied? The taste for slaughter exhibited by the sons of the Prophet was more than matched by that of Christians who liquidated heathen and heretic....The cultural backgrounds of the past and current generation of political dictators provides interesting material for speculation. Mussoliini, Franco, Salazar, Hitler, Peron and almost without exception the Latin-American dictators were or are Roman Catholics, at least in their education and upbringing. And Stalin had considerable training for the priesthood of an equally dictatorial church. Confronted with such facts one is compelled at least to ask himself what kind of causal sequences are here suggested.... In both Islam and Christendom the naive believers have over long periods been taught that it was their duty to slaughter the unbeliever, or whoever refused to accept their particular version of divine guidance. They have not had a change of heart; they have just been shorn of the powers for mischief." Walker attributes this quote to George B. Vetter _Magic and Religion_ New York: Philosophical Library, 1973 pp 411, 510, 518 From: Edy Braun To: David Moore 94-06-01 11:%:00 Subject: Hitler, The Pope, and Darwin DM> He (Hitler) could hardly have lived in the epoch that he did without DM> knowing of Darwin and his theory. Even if he knew and even tried to justify his actions on the basis of "evolution", this has absolutely no relationship to whether or not evolution occurs in nature. Observation of natural systems show that life changes over time due to selective pressures. This is like arguing against the Atomic Theory of Matter on the basis that an Atom Bomb was dropped by America on Hiroshima and Nagasaki in August, 1945. In any case, I can site many examples in history in which barbaric immoral ends were justified by religious ideas. Look at the crusades and the pillaging and razing of villages being justified by religious leaders during most of the dark and middle ages. Look at the Inquisition and how religious power has been corrupt in many other instances. The mass acquisition of wealth by the European church must have had something to do with it. BUT DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE BIBLE IS TO BLAME? DOES THAT MEAN THAT WE SHOULD SAY THE BIBLE CAUSED IT? WHY ARE WE EVEN BRINGING IT UP? Similarily, just as the Bible cannot be blamed for the murder of people on the basis of religious grounds by leaders whose behaviour was completely contrary to the moral code in the Bible, we cannot use leaders who employed skewed scientific ideas to try to depict those scientific ideas as being "good" or "bad". Science is not "good" or "bad", just like MATH and a bunch of equations cannot be considered "good" or "bad". DM> _The_Columbia_Encyclopedia_, third ed., s.v. "Fascism," "A second ruling DM> concept of fascism is embodied in the theory of social Darwinism. The DM> doctrine of survival of the fittest and the necessity of struggle for DM> life is applied by fascists to the life of a nation-state. Peaceful, Dm> satisfied nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, DM> making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of DM> the fascist state." I believe it is logical to say that, in Hitler's case, DM> this concept was also applied to the the racial group which, in his mind, DM> was the personification of his state. Thats funny, because in The New Lexicons Webster Dictionary Of The English Language, Encyclopedic Edition, ISBN 0-7172-4535-7, p. 342 under "fascism", it says: any political or social ideology of the extreme right which relies on a combination of pseudo-religious attitudes and the brutal use of force for getting and keeping power Assuming your definition is correct, it has nothing to do with the fact that evolution occurs. All you are saying is that it is an EXTREMELY BAD IDEA for humans to justify some kind of political movement on the basis of SCIENCE. And I agree with you TOTALLY. Fascism is a BAD IDEA for everyone. Humans (I hope) have achieved the ability to "counter" evolution and to help out the less fortunate in our society who would otherwise die off (our social safety net). It is WRONG WRONG WRONG for people to start selection practices on a population. You do not have natural selection, you have unnatural artificial selection on who should live and who should die by a dictator. This is not evolution. This is someones sick mind trying to impose an ideal image (like what "Adam" was supposed to look like) on people. So, bringing my point back to the Atom Bomb... you cannot say that fission (or fission and fusion in the case of the Hydrogen bomb) doesn't happen just because it has been misused in certain cases for murderous purposes. Just like you can't say evolution doesn't happen because it was used by Hitler for murderous purposes. You really are lacking a substantial argument. --- cPoint v2.09/FreeWare * Origin: Black Holes: God dividing by ZERO (1:250/664.25) I have just finished reading an article written by Carol McGraw in The Orange County (California) Register about a conference sponsored by the Youth for Christ called a Youth Evangelism Conference. Let me quote the first paragraph; "A screaming, swaying crowd of teen-agers crammed into Anahem Convention Center on Tursday to boo President Clinton, the surgen general, Dr. Ruth, abortions, condoms, homosexuals, feminists and religions different from their own." The leader of this conference, Josh McDowell had this to say about tolerance using the parable of Daniel in the lions den; "Tolerance is the worst roar of all, including tolerance for homosexuals, feminists and religions the don't follow Christ." This is what we're up against, it's not just having prayer or teaching creationism in the public schools, it's more that that, it's the teaching of hate to teen-agers and getting them to teach their friends. And the president of Youth for Christ Roger Cross clams that they reach a half-million youngsters yearly in 100 nations, including 240 U.S. cities. "The decision taken, the Fuehrer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injunction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy ("I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so"), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God - so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty." -from _Adolph Hitler_, by John Toland, copyright Doubleday Books 1976 pg 703. From: David Rice To: Jennifer Lynne Apr-26-94 09:48:14 Subject: Hitler (again) with: Jesse C. Jones >JCJ> Adolph Hitler, in my opinion, is a mutant product of >JCJ> modernism. His past association with the Catholic Church >JCJ> only reflects where he came from. Christian churches >JCJ> share the shame of Western civilization, which allowed >JCJ> the Holocaust. But Hitler was no Christian. JL> No, he was a product of a xtian society. For century after century after century, the Christian church had designated the people to be despised: the religious believers called Jews the "Christ killers," the "enemies of God." All the religious massacres of 900 years--- by Crusaders pursuing infidels, by inquisitors hunting backsliders, by superstitious mobs fearing tales of well-poisoning--- branded Jews as accursed. When popes ordered Jews to wear badges and live in ghettos--- or when they were expelled entirely--- it told the populace that these pariahs were unfit to live among decent folk. Passion plays depicting Jews as cruel mockers of Christ, and cathedral paintings of the evil non-Christians, fanned hatred of those the church called "the perfidious Jews." Thus, when Adolf Hitler needed a scapegoat group to rally the discontented majority to his cause and catapult himself to power, natural victims clearly marked by the church were at his disposal. The Christian public, not only in Germany but also throughout Europe, was predisposed to receive the Nazi message of Jew-hatred. That is from James A. Haught's "Holly Horrors," pg. 157-158. Also from that book we read: "The Holocaust was, of course, the bitter fruit of long centuries of Christian teaching about the Jewish people." (Dr. Franklin Littell, Temple University.) As well as ". . . centuries of Christian hostility to Jews prepared the way for the Holocaust. The Nazis are inconcievable apart from this Christian tradition. Hitler's pongrom, for all its distinctiveness, is the zenith of a long Christian heritage of teaching and practive against Jews." (Theologian Clark Williamson, Christian Theological Seminary, Indianapolis.) And "The isolation of Jews into ghetto camps, the wearing of the yellow spot, the burning of Jewish books, and finally the burning of the people--- Hitler learned it all from the Church. However, the Church burned Jewish women and children alive, while Hitler granted them a quicker death, choking them first with gas." "The clergymen don't tell you whom to kill; they just tell you whom to hate." (Dr. Dagobert Runes, Historian, child of a Holocaust victim.) After the truth of what Nazi Germany had done was disclosed, some 15 years after the events, Pope John XXIII was agast at what had been done to the Jews in the name of God and Jesus. He wrote a prayer and addressed it to the Christian world: "The mark of Cain is stamped upon our foreheads. Across the centuries, our brother Abel has lain in blood which we drew, and shed tears we caused by forgetting Thy love. Forgive us, Lord, for the curse we falsely attributed to their name as Jews." While his heart was in the right place, surely it is not his god's place to forgive Christians and Christianity, but the place of the Jews to do so. GIF87af,fڋ޼H扦ʶ L^ĢLV|LJCD5ȕ |rWPhNkdO"őt^҇G&vgG!hC)iy 9QyHԧXJ:yֹ *GIF87a,ڋ޼H扦ʶ L ĢL*̦ JԪjܮ N (8HXhx)9IYiy9 y0W *'j [!{q{b˰kz+@Zܺ<[l0||m \.BP|`٭> ?O#ku`}=נGIF87a,ڋ޼H扦ʶ L ĢL*̦ JZܮ hYc@[fi^;,zWl8칬wחh6fDZy!)xeH9HԹ2 Area: HOLYSMOKE Msg#: 5247 Date: 07-04-99 10:32 From: Alec Grynspan Read: Yes Replied: No To: David Rice Mark: Subj: Mainstresam Christianity @MSGID: 1:2424/11 377f38a1 @REPLY: 1:3603/140 dcff7b12 @PID: GED2 2.5 1080DK15 @TID: FastEcho 1.46 10520 <*[*] [*] [DAVID RICE] [DON MARTIN] [HOLYSMOKE] +> <+[Mainstresam Christianity] [01 Jul 99 22:55][*][0]*> DR> He'll probably start wailing about Hitler "the atheist" was DR> against abortion. Then I'll dump the following on him - or go over to Nizkor and pull down the data that shows the contrary: ===================================== "Secular schools can never be tolerated because such schools have no religious instruction, and a general moral instruction without a religious foundation is built on air; consequently, all character training and religion must be derived from faith . .. we need believing people." [Adolf Hitler, April 26, 1933, from a speech made during negotiations leading to the Nazi-Vatican Concordant of 1933] "The folkish-minded man, in particular, has the sacred duty, each in his own denomination, of making people stop just talking superficially of God's will, and actually fulfil God's will, and not let God's word be desecrated. For God's will gave men t heir form, their essence and their abilities. Anyone who destroys His work is declaring war on the Lord's creation, the divine will." [Adolf Hitler, "Mein Kampf" Vol. 2 Chapter 10] "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Creator. By warding off the Jews I am fighting for the Lord's ~~~~~~~~ work." [Adolf Hitler, Speech, Reichstag, 1936]" ===================================== AYUP! Hitler was a Creationist, alright! And Laurie has been condemning hin constantly. ===================================== Courtesy of Curtis Johnson's research: From John Toland's 1976 biography, _Adolf Hitler_ (Anchor/Doubleday). Toland is a Pulitzer-prize winning WW2 historian (1971, for _The Rising Sun._) Footnote citations for quotes, etc. are in the back of the book. Quotes are both public and private statements. p. 9: "For six months [in Lambach] the family lived . . . just opposite the imposing Benedictine monastery. . . . on certain afternoons [Adolf Hitler] attended the choir school at the monastery, under the tutelage of Padre Bernhard Groner. On the way he had to pass bya stone arch in which was carved the monastery's coat of arms--its most prominent feature a swastika. At this time he became `intoxicated' with that `solemn splendor of brilliant church festivals.' The abbot became his idol and he hoped to join the Church himself, one aspiration that curiously met his anti-clerical [p.12] father's approval. Adolf later told Frau Helene Haufstaengl that `as a small boy it was his most ardent wish to become a priest. He often borrowed the large kitchen apron of the maid, draped it about his shoulders investment fashion, climbed on a kitchen chair and delivered long and fervent sermons.' His devout mother would certainly have welcomed such a career, but Adolf's interest in things priestly ended as quickly as it began. Before long he was caught smoking." p. 34 In early Vienna days, he tried writing plays. "Excitedly he described the action which took place at the time Christianity was brought to Bavaria; the mountain men would not accept the new faith and were determined to kill the Christian missionaries." p. 35 "Each of these dramas required expensive productions with scenes ranging from heaven to hell . . . " p. 36 "Over and over he insisted that he must keep `The Flame of Life' pure. That is, he believed--in accordance with his Catholic upringing--a man and woman should keep themeselves chaste in body and soul until marriage and thus be worthy of producing healthy children for the nation." p. 41 ". . . he again turned to the Church, whee he got three meat patties and one kronen from the Mother Superior by greeting her with a `Praised be Jesus Christ,' along with a reference to the St. Vincent Association." p. 45 "he would return to the writing room and carry on his own harangues, which involved. . . denunciations of the ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Social Democrats for their atheism. . ." ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ p. 61 "He asked Popp to keep the newspapers describing the action [which one him the Iron Cross, 2nd class]. `I want to save them for reminiscences, if the dear Lord spares my life.' p. 63 "`. . . if one of his mates jokingly remarked that the war would never be won he became incense and would pace back and forth, asserting that England's coming defeat was as certain as the "Amen in the prayer."'" p. 68 "In the later years of the war I read Schopenhauer and reached for him again and again. Then I was able to do without evangelism--even if Christ was a true fighter. But the turning of both cheeks is not a very good recipe for the front." p. 105 Toland notes that the swastika had "long been a symbol of the Teutonic Knights." p. 115 "Hitler--after telling his followers: `Two thousand years the mob of Jerusalem dragged a man to execution in just this way'--was placed in Stadelheim prison for inciting a riot." p. 140 ". . . he claimed that the stiff-arm salute at least was German. `I'd read the description of the sitting of the Diet of Worms, in the course of which Luther was greeted with the German salute. It was to show him that he was not being confronted with arms, but with peaceful intentions." p. 142-143 "`. . . the luxury, the perversion, the iniquity, the wanton display and the Jewish materialism [of Berlin] disgusted me so thoroughly that I was almost beside myself. I nearly imagined myself to be Jesus Christ when he came to his Father's Temple and found the money changers.' Whereupon, claimed Eckart, Hitler brandished his whip and exclaimed that it was his mission to descend upon the capital like a Christ and scourge the corrupt." p. 159 [Beer Hall Putsch] ". . . the storm troopers were to proceed to St. Annaplatz, pick up a cache of 3000 rifles in the basement of the monastery. . ." p. 187 `Anyway, will-power is greater than knowledge. If God had only "known" the world and not "willed" it, there would still be chaos today.' p. 211 "Here in privacy he finished writing the first volume of his book. His principle sounding board was Hess . . . but he also sought editorial advice from Father Bernhard Stempfle, the former editor of an anti-Semitic newspaper . . ." p. 213 Quote from _Mein Kampf_: "Therefore, I am now convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator by fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord's work." p. 219 `For our struggle God gave us His abundant blessing. His most beautiful gift was the hate of our enemies whom we too hate with all our heart.' p. 222 "`Christ,' he said, was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews.* [* Hitler did not consider Jesus a Jew but a _Mischling_ (a half Jew who did not adhere to the Jewish religion and therefore was free of the Jewish virus) on the grounds that, with immaculate conception, he only had two Jewish grandparents.] He was not the apostle of peace. His life's purpose and life's teaching was the battle against the power of capitalism, and for this he was crucified on the cross by his archenemy, the Jews. `The work that Christ started but could not finish, I--Adolf Hitler--will conclude.'" p. 225 "There were two solutions: either decrease the population by `chasing our best human material out of Germany' or `bring the the soil into consonance with the population even if it must be done by war. This is the natural way which Providence has prescribed.'" p. 260 "On the first day of 1932 Hitler told a Munich audience that God was on his side in the battle for a better world. Didn't the Bible say that the lukewarm was condemned to be spewed out?" p. 299 While inspecting the Reichstag fire: `God grant that this be the work of Communists.' `This is a God-given signal, Herr Vice-Chancellor!' p. 310 `I believe that I act today in unison with the Almighty Creator's intention: by fighting the Jews I do battle for the Lord.' p. 311 "Hitler defended his action in a talk with Bishop Berning and Monsignor Steinmann. After reminding the priests that the Church had banished Jews into ghettos and forbidden Christians to work with them, Hitler explained that he regarded the Jews as `nothing but pernicious enemies of the State and Church, and therefore he wanted to drive the Jews out more and more, especially from academic life and public professions.' He was only going to do more effectively what the Church of Rome had been attempting for so many centuries." p. 315 "Spengler spent an hour and a half with him that July; they agreed about German policy toward France and shared the same disdain for the mediocre leadership in the Evangelical Church." p. 315-16 "The princes of the Church were more eager to curry his favor. `Hitler knows how to guide the ship,' announced Monsignor Ludwig Kaas, leader of the recently outlawed Catholic Party after an audience with the Pope. `Even before he became Chancellor I met him frequently and was greatly impressed by his clear thinking, by his way of facing realities while upholding his ideals, which are noble . . . . It matters little who rules so long as order is maintained.' Pius XI subscribed to the same principles, as was proved on July 20 when a concordat between the Vatican and Hitler was signed. The Church agreed to keep priests and religion out of politics while Hitler, among other things, granted complete freedom to confessional schools throughout the country, a notable victory for German Catholics. His Holiness welcomed Hitler's representative, Franz von Papen, `most graciously and remarked how pleased he was that the German Government now had at its head a man uncompromisingly opposed to Communism and Russian nihilism in all its forms.' "The Vatican was so appreciative of being recognized as a full partner that it asked God to bless the Reich. On a more practical level, it ordered German bishops to swear allegiance to the National Socialist regime. The new oath concluded with these significant words: `In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interest of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrmiental acts which might endanger it.'" p. 320 Concerning the plebiscite on withdrawal from the League of Nations--"The Church again gave enthusiastic support. Every bishop in Bavaria approved a statement by Cardinal Faulhaber requesting a Ja vote: `In this way the Catholics will profess anew their loyalty to people and Fatherland and their agreeement with the farsighted and forceful efforts of the Fuhrer to spare the German people the terror of war and the horrors of Bolshevism, to secure public order and create work for the unemployed.'" p. 366 ". . . more than 90 per cent of the Saar electorate (at the urging of the Catholic Church) voted for union with Germany." p. 387-88 "By Monday more than 25,000 German troops, greeted by censer-swinging priests conferring blessings on them, were established in the Rhine zone." p. 388 " `Yes, the world belongs to the courageous. God helps him.' He asked that a record of Wagner's _Parsifal_ be played and, as he listened, remarked that he had built his religion out of that opera. `You can serve God only as a hero,' he said." p. 389 `And should unnecessary sorrow or suffering ever come to my people because of my actions, then I beseech the Almighty God to punish me.' p. 394 `I remember what I was, and what I have yet to do--if only my strength lasts, and God and Fortune remain with me to the end!' p. 403 "He reasserted his divine mission. `Today I must humbly thank Providence whose grace has enabled me, once an unknown soldier in the war, to bring to a successful issue the struggle for our honor and rights as a nation.'" p. 456 "Later in the day Cardinal Innitzer greeted him with the sign of the cross and gave assurance that so long as the Church retained its liberties Austrian Catholics would become `the truest sons of the great Reich into whose arms they had been brought by this momentous day.' According to Papen, Hitler was delighted with the cardinal's patriotic words, shook his hand warmly and `promised him everything.'" pp. 456-57 "A declaration signed by Cardinal Innitzer and five other prelates had been sent to the newly appointed commissioner of Austria instructing Austrian Catholics how to vote: `On the day of the plebiscite, it is the obvious national duty of us bishops to declare ourselves as Germans for the German Reich, and we expect all faithful Christians to recognize where their duty to the people lies.'" p. 502 Hitler "proclaimed the Law for the Protection of German Blood and Honour, legalizing a number of repressive measures which were promptly justified by the official Catholic _Klervsblatt_ as `indisputable safeguards for the qualitative make- up of the German people.'" p. 528 "Schoolchildren were taught to give homage in song: _Adolf Hitler is our savior, our hero, He is the noblest being in the whole wide world. For Hitler we live, For Hitler we die. Our Hitler is our Lord, Who rules a brave new world._ Hitler himself even forbade the use of the term Third Reich and complained to his inner circle of the growth of this cult worship . . . " p. 528 ". . . on his fiftieth anniversary. Special votive masses were celebrated in every German church `to implore God's blessing upon Fuhrer and people,' and the Bishop of Mainz called upon Catholics in his diocese to pray specifically for `the Fuhrer and Chancellor, the inspirer, enlarger and protector of the Reich.' The Pope did not fail to send his congratulations." p. 572 "There was no condemnation [of the invasion into Poland] from the Vatican, which had been secretly exerting pressure on the Polish government, through Cardianl Hlond, to negotiate with Hitler." p. 585 `Almighty God has now blessed our weapons.' pp. 586-87 "He prayed [in the speech] that God might show the Third Reich and all other nations the correct course." p. 593 `Now I am completely content! The fact that I left the Burgerbraukeller earlier than usual [and so escaped being killed by a bomb] is a corroboraton of Providence's intention to let me reach my goal.' p. 594 "The Catholic press throughout the Reich piously declared that it was the miraculous working of Providence which had protected the Fuhrer. Cardinal Faulhaber sent a telegram and instructed that a Te Deum be sung in the cathedral of Munich, `to thank Divine rovidence in the name of the archdiocese for the Fuhrer's fortunate escape.' The Pope, who had yet to explicitly condemn Germany's liquidation of Poland, sent his special personal congratulations. But Hitler doubted his sincerity." p. 595 "The official organ of the papacy, _Osservatore Romano_, which had followed the Pope's lead in failing to condemn Fascist or Nazi incursions, now joined him in excoriating the Soviet attack [on Finland] as a calculated act of aggression." p. 646 "Mesmerized by his political and military victories, he exlained to one Nazi commander that he ws the first and only mortal who had emerged into a `superhuman state.' His nature was `more godlike than human,' and therefore as the first of the new race of supermen he was `bound by none of the conventions of human morality' and stood `above the law.'" p. 672 `May God help us above all in this fight!' pp. 674-75 "The Pope's attitude was not at all vague. While taking no definite stand on the German invasion [of the USSR], he made it clear that he backed the Nazi fight against Bolshevism, describing it as `high-minded gallantry in defense of the foundations of Christian culture.' A number of German bishops, predictably, openly supported the attack. One called it `a European crusade,' a mission similar to that of the Teutonic Knights. He exhorted all Catholics to fight for `a victory that will allow Europe to breathe freely gain and will promise all nations a new future.'" p. 685 `Only when the entire German people becomes a single community of sacrifice can we hope and expect that Providence will stand by us in the future. Almighty God never helped a lazy man. Nor does He help a coward.' p. 689 ". . . Hitler said that in the future he would not tolerate any more applications to resign. `I myself, for instance, am not in a position to go to my superior, God Almighty, and say to Him, "I am not going on with it, because I don't want to take the responsibility."'" p. 693 `No power can shake the German Reich now. Divine Providence has willed it that I carry the fulfillment of a Germanic task.' p. 703 "The decision taken, the Fuhrer made it known to those entrusted with the Final Solution that the killings should be done as humanely as possible. This was in line with his conviction that he was observing God's injuction to cleanse the world of vermin. Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite detestation of its hierarchy (`I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so'), he carried within him its teaching that the Jew was the killer of God. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of God--so long as it was done impersonally, without cruelty." p. 778 "`My generals and admirals,' he said, `if Providence should actually deny us victory in this battle of life and death, and if it is the will of the Almighty that this should end in catastrophe for the German people, then you, my generals and admirals, must gather around me with upraised swords to fight to the last drop of blood for the honor of Germany. . ." p. 815 "`I am too much of a psychologist,' he concluded, `not to see that a divine hand led this man with the bomb here at recisely the most favorable time for us. If I and the entire staff had been killed, it would have been a real catastrophe.'" ===================================== -!- ! Origin: The Haven of the nets (1:2424/11)