Msg#: 1811 Date: 08-22-96 23:29 From: Holysmoke Faq Read: Yes Replied: No Please find attached hereafter the HolySmoke FAQ in its current incarnation. I have cut it into sections, so folks can find what they are looking for: FAQ Proper The basic FAQ for the Echo. FALLACIES Logical and argumentary fallacy list. CONTRADICTIONS Biblical Contradictions List. SHITLIST "Shit Happens"! SAMPLER The ever notorious Echo Sampler, now reduced in size and including more modern-day HolySmokers' materials. To find the section you need, just look at the "SUBJECT:" line for the above terms. As usual, I have cut these documents into sections less than 6.0 kilobytes long, as prior experience with the FAQ has shown that this slice size -- the old FidoNet limitation -- has the best chance of arriving everywhere, intact, the first time. slack -- s. ÚHeaderÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³The HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List ³ ³Created by David Rice ³±± ³Current Author: Sean McCullough (Editor-in-Chief) ³±± ³ Authors/Editors: Various Heathens in Network 1:128 ³±± ³ ³±± ³ Revised 15 Jan 1996 - Revision 666.025 by Coridon Henshaw ³±± ³ Revised 14 August 1996 -- Revision 6.02 * 1.0E+23 ³±± ³ ³±± ³Compilation copyright 1996, Sean McCullough. Copyright is claimed ³±± ³primarily to protect against unauthorized editing of the quotes of ³±± ³others' material presented herein, pursuant to Moderatorial Rulings ³±± ³regarding the HOLYSMOKE Echo. ³±± ³ ³±± ³Individual quotations remain the property of their respective owners. ³±± ³ ³±± ³ ³±± ³Passage to non-HolySmoke participants: Please remove all mention of ³±± ³ both Coridon and C.J. Henshaw's names from any such copy. You may ³±± ³ leave any mention of Sean McCullough intact, however. ³±± ³ ³±± ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ±± ±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±± ÍDisclaimersÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial location. Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not ignite. Do not eat. Definitions of words may vary. Contents may settle during transfer. Slice into sections not exceeding 6 kilobytes long for best results. Í1: IntroductionÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other echoes in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the past four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their brainwashing, but there's always the chance that some god-believing cash-cow will stop denying reality, so we continue to try. Í2: TerminologyÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ atheist One who has no belief in deities. See 3.x for details. Atheist Member of American Athiests, inc. athiest Used by theists to refer to those without morals. agnostic An atheist without guts. fundi Religous fundamentalist. See 3.6 for details. liberal Anyone winning an argument with a creationist. Hir Gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir." Í3: Q&AÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ 3.1 Q: What is HOLYSMOKE? A: HOLYSMOKE is Fidonet's only non-denominational, uncensored religion debate echo. Debates such as fundies vs athists can be conducted here without danger of loosing your feed, like in other areas such as HOLY_BIBLE or any other "christian" echo. 3.2 Q: Why was HOLYSMOKE created? A: The moderator (Styx Allum) originally started the echo as a joke on some local fundies. It took off from there. 3.3 Q: What kind of behavior is alowed here? A: Most anything, including flames. One thing that will get you booted is modification of other people's quotes. If somebody says fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to 'f***' or some other variation, you will be clobbered. Check the rules (posted on an ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for more information. 3.4 Q: Are "flames" allowed? A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy if you extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't like flames, stick to posting what you know or can validate. Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or reading 'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you medium-rare. A: It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the board between the eyes to get your attention works. [Dan Ceppa] .4.1 Q: Will argument from authority get me flamed? A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and content. Claiming that several bright people support your assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT make it so. Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a biologist on cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- because you will get roasted. Saying "Einstein believed in God (he didn't) therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright people CAN and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well educated in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields. .4.2 Q: Will poor spelling get flamed? A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too, to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great Questions humans have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy speller telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't seem likely. If one does not know the difference between "Their" and "they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for one to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the universe?! 3.5 Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke? A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist resorts to eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the topic at hand. A: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow down before GOD before we all roast in Hell. Then there are those who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their "Book" and attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right. As for myself, I could care less who a person worships, although I usually strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular student of biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century Judah. Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and attempt to understand what was REALLY going on! By far the biggest problem though, are those who insist I should pay to support their religion. Our city supports a separate school system for Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs every one of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed on those who do not wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything to do with religion must suffer through innumerable disturbances from people who insist their religion should be in the forefront. THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in this echo! [John Musselwhite] 3.6 Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies) A: FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an American conservative religious movement that believes in biblical inerrancy. This movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) criticism of the Bible that originated among European theologians and was accepted by American "modernists". Fundamentalism owes its name to the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being essential to the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two varieties; (about more later) but are united by the belief that each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least, their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true. When they find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as the ultimate truth. But when confronted with an apparent contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite significance. Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist, (H.n.i. var. ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the extraordinarily annoying ability of being able to interject their own personal version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional. H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is functionally illiterate. Though some may become transplanted to more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old habits: mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based bleating. A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is really a regressive event) is responsible for the other variety: H.n.i. var. urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to exploit the trophism of bright lights, television cameras, teleprompters and wireless communication. Basically, a member of this group can be described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned religious zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other familiar sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety around their shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow travelers", "one-worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of the next, they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to think for themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to "REPENT!" and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting smoke, fury, fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine addiction. The venue may change, but the song always remains the same. Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited above represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though, it is more of a U-turn. [Marty Leipzig] A: Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their thinking with these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among some American Protestants, the movement based on this belief: opposed to _modernism_. [Don Martin] 3.7 Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?" A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and baseless claims, and then insists that others believe these claims, one may expect a little heat. Some assertions that generate heat: "My book was written by god because it says so, and god wouldn't lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves such-and-such." "I'll pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful atheists." .7.0 Q: "Why is everyone attacking me? I'm only giving you the Good News" A: Look. You don't see it as being offensive, or pushing, or whatever, [to preach at us] but then *you* aren't the one being offended, are you. Think of it in these terms: you are not the one who decides whether or not someone else wants to hear about your religious views. Indeed, the other person may have very well-formed and solid religious views of their own. And your rather rude insistence on discussing your religion and why that other person should start *following* your religion is offensive. Understand? Its not the content of the message which is offensive. Its the assumption that you, as a Christian, have some sort of universal permission to ram that message down our throats that makes us mad at you. [Jack Butler] .7.1 Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh, PLEASE drive those nails in harder!] A: Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice or other unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks were known to be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you would not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need to be controlled. However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as a group, is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or controlling them. You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely unwarranted. Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their actions. They discriminate against gays, against people who have sex before marriage, against women, against scientists. All of that discrimination is based on - and please make very careful note of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice to adopt a belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent part. You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at any deity, let alone a specific deity. The only way to adopt the belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice. You choose to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred. Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey Bjarnason] 3.8 Q: What is "Crucifixation?" A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and martyred hirself. This fixation prevents those afflicted with it to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman fashion, when death by stoning was the preferred method of disposing of sons of Gods. 3.9 Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?" A: This is a reference to the so-called global flood 'theory' presented by biblical literalists. 3.10 Q: What is "One Nation Under God?" A: The state of theocratic opression that fundamentalists desire to impose on the country in which they reside. 3.11 Q: What is a "Creationist?" A: One who believes that the earth was created in six days, exactly as told in the bible. Such people always fail to notice the two different creation accounts contained in Genisis 1:x and 2:x. 3.12 Q: What's this "IHS!" thing? A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear just who "His" may be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat sausage!" "I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. The most common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is "In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By this sign we conquer." [OBSOLETE] 3.13 Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?" A: When atrocities are performed by Christians in the name of God, their partners in religion say they were not Real True Christians. Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God Jehovah, John Salvi, Paul Hill, Senator Exon, Timothy Mcvay, David Koresh and the IRA. A: Any Christian who belongs to a 'false christian' sect. For example, Catholics are false christians to Protestants. 3.13.1Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true Christians among us. A: Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, against groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize all gays and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP affinity groups; you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities of a few doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are doctrinaire Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their kind, yet expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? [Paul Boyer] .13.2Q: What is a "Real True Christian?" A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute. .13.3Q: What is a cult? A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do. A: A religon without political power. 3.14 Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean? A: This is the common reference to Christian foot-stomping arguments. (I.E. It's so because I say it is!) 3.15 Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?" A: The exact account of Genisis in the New Testiment. However, biblical passages do not meet the requirements for a scientific theory. See 3.x for more information on scientific theories. A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism, because they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach it in public school, yet they still demand that it should. 3.16 Q: What are Star Goat and Dopefish? A: These made-up gods are used as a defense against 'prove God doesn't exist' argments made by theists. 3.17 Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me? A: Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove she doesn't! When someone brings up the non-measurability of their favorite god (Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah), others bring up Daisy and point out that the evidence she exists is identical to the evidence their god(s) exist. See 3.16 3.18 Q: What's an Athiest? (note spelling and case) A: Christians use this word to represent people without morals; heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; gays; Democrats. .18.1Q: What's an atheist? A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ: Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong atheism". It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials. "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?" Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. .18.2Q: What is an "Agnostic?" A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not. 3.19 Q: What is HOLY_BIBLE? A: This echo is run by Steve Winter (no S), who has professed it to be THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing that the echoes are Christian. 3.20 Q: What is a Sheneism? A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time, later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I hate it when that happens!). The first time someone made this claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person this happened to blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and going, eh? 3.21 Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE? A: Creationists refuse to go to the EVOLUTION echo, because there are several more well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected of their errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are several highly knowledgeable people in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims. EVOLUTION is also less-widly carried in the bible-belt than HOLYSMOKE is. 3.22 Q: Are there any Satanists here? A: No. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in the USA is from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim. 3.23 Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and Muslims? A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe them--we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second, and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting our secular nation through political means, not Satanists (how many Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in prayer?). 3.24 Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus? A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's speaking for his god. In the three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just those who claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians commit crimes in the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we blame the criminals. 3.25 Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF? A: A child preparing to feed a bird. If you have an Internet address, ask Martin Goldberg to send you a copy. 3.26 Q: NOODLES??? A: I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not only did they last, not only did several take home a container full of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. Finally, they had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. I have seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for the better, in ways that could only be called a miracle. The LORD russles the leaves if you are willing listen." [Jerry Randall] 3.27 Q: What are the requirements for a someting to be a theory? Is Creationism a theory? A: I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at all but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of evolution is used, according to these criteria, to describe the fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these criteria to describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a new theory to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while waiting to see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of gravity. So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and discover what a theory is... A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental categories of criteria by which theories are judged: (1) logical criteria (2) empirical criteria (3) sociological criteria (4) historical criteria. There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be: (1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing unnecessary ("Occam's Razor" [see section 4 -ch]) (1.b) logically consistent internally (1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which the theory could be imagined to be invalid) (1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions so that it is clear whether or not any particular data are or are not relevant to the verification or falsification of the theory. The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection. An idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories must make clear patterns of things and relationships between things. These patterns and relationships must be internally logical and consistent since these are required attributes of all sound explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least logically if not by actual experiment, or else tautologies or other logically sterile constructions might be admissible as theories. Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or else there will be criteria for determining whether or not any particular observation or experiments should or should not be explainable by the theory. In fact, if a theory is totally unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any observation that is irrelevant to verifying the theory. Thus, an unbounded theory would not be falsifiable. And, if a theory cannot be falsified, it cannot be self-corrected. Yet self-correctability is precisely the characteristic that gives scientific theories their epistemological power: a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by attempts to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be corrected or extended. Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A theory must: (2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions or retrodictions that are testable (2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions (2.c) concern reproducible results (2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as irrelevant. The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by the theory and verify its predictions or retrodictions); some may be artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental influences lying outside the boundaries set for the validity of the theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid within the bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so, invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not at all. Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology does not exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test). Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and so is useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One can, at best, only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the scientific purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may possibly be observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would not know what to look for, where, how to look for it, under what conditions, or know whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the theory. If everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for it can exist. A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that make predictions and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, either by the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent discovery of relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is in need of correction or extension. And, of course, a theory based upon irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the very fact that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary conditions governing the collection of the data have not been properly set, or the original data may have been due simply to coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the theory. Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a theory. A theory must: (3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or anomalies irresolvable on the basis of preexisting scientific theories (3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which scientists may work (3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which these new problems may be expected to be resolved (3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations beneficial to the problem-solving abilities of other scientists. Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that does not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research activity of scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn anything they were unable to learn before. A theory therefore has no sociological value unless it provides a model for new or more efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory must be stated in terms that are operationally useful to the community of scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific. Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well: historical ones. A theory must: (4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its predecessors or demonstrate that any abandoned criteria are artifactual (4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired by previous theories through their history of testing or, put another way, be able to explain all of the data gathered under previous relevant theories in terms either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed) (4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories that already have established scientific validity. These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are correctable. Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and promotes the consistency and integration of all scientific explanations, without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick and choose data that favor their explanations while ignoring previously recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own ideas. The historical criteria make such unscientific procedures nearly impossible. The historical records of each science stand as a monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer a science has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge concerning any particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge into a new and consistent framework. [Robert Root-Bernstein] In short ... if you have a better theory of how the diversity of species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it into the above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will remain as they now are. The facts that are manifest under the banner of evolution will not go away while your theory is being developed. If you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of evolution that fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you can do so and not before. [Simon Ewins] 3.28 Q: Is there a biological basis for fundamentalism? I mean, people can't be this stupid without extra help. A: You (and others here) may find interesting the article by Rebecca Lee, "The Jerusalem Syndrome" in The Atlantic Monthly (May 1995, pp 24-38). There are LOTS of Messiahs around, and protestants are particularly susceptible. All it takes for many is to visit Jerusalem and experience a religious overload. The authorities find ice middle-class Americans wandering the surrounding hillsides, dressed in bedsheets. David Koresh was one such who recognized his own divinity in 1983 and did not get treatment for it. The treatment is a drug Haloperidol, "a dopamine antagonist; some psychiatrists hypothesize that too much dopamine can cause the mind to be overactive and project to excess, to translate what _is_ into what _might be_--an action of faith. An overabundance of dopamine, then may blur the differences on perceives between oneself and God. Haloperidol blocks some of the dopamine receptors, closes the gates, prevents interplay in the mind between what is seen and what is unseen, discourages the leap of faith. Physicians keep the dosage very low, however, fearing that too much of the drug might wipe out the religious imagination entirely." (p 38, col a) Perhaps we atheists are simply hypodopaminic to the hyper-of the fundies. Better things for better living through chemistry . . . . [Now all you need to do is slip a large amount of Haloperidol into Washington D.C's water supply and you'll have no more fundies in office...] 3.29 Q: What is the Necronomicon? A: [...] The Necronomicon began life as an interesting and eldritch bit of frippery that H. P. Lovecraft invented to liven up some of his stories and add the element of Things Which Man Was Not Meant To Know to them. Abdul Alhazred is likewise a fiction. The only book bearing the name that I have seen in print was written in the late '70s and is a mish-mash of pseudo-Sumerian babble. It is not the "real" Necronomicon, if there ever could be such a thing. It is merely a stupidly written and very funny bit of junk whose main claim to fame is the use of the title. Most people with any sense whatsoever realize that the Necronomicon is indeed a fraud and anyone purporting to have anything like a real copy of it is off his gyros. [Preston Simpson] 3.30 Q: How old is the earth? How do we know? A: The most direct means for calculating the earth's age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-208/Pb-204. If the solar system formed form a common pool of matter, which was uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall on a single point. However, amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of U (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207). If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed with respect to U isotope ratios, then this change will cause the data points to move away from each other, but they will always fall on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can derive the amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became separated into individual objects. A creationist would object to all of the "assumptions" listed above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data to plot on a line. The resulting plot for five meteorites that contained uranium, a single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one for modern ocean sediments. It looks like this: Y-axis: ratio of Pb[207]/Pb[204] X-axis: ratio of Pb[206]/Pb[204]. ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ 7 ³ ³ ³ 30 Ã ´ ³ ³ ³ 6 ³ ³ ³ ³ ³ 20 Ã ´ ³ ³ ³ 4 5 ³ ³ 3 ³ ³ 2 ³ 10 Ã 1 ´ ³ ³ ³ ³ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÙ 10 20 30 40 50 Data points: (1) Iron Meteorites; (2) Beardsley; (3) Modern sediments and young galenas; (4) Saratov; (5) Elenovka; (6) Richardton; (7) Nuevo Laredo. I can't really do it justice in ASCII, I recommend interested parties to get the original. (Dalrymple, 1986, Figure 12) The slope of the line in the above chart gives an age of 4.55 ñ 0.07 billion years. Most of the other measurements for the age of the earth rest upon calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are less geologically active (such as meteorites). Below is a table of radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites: ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Number Type Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Chondrites 13 Sm-Nd 4.21 +/- 0.76 Carbonaceous chondrites 4 Rb-Sr 4.37 +/- 0.34 Chondrites (undist. H) 38 Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.02 Chondrites (all) 50 Rb-Sr 4.43 +/- 0.04 H Chondrites (undist.) 17 Rb-Sr 4.52 +/- 0.04 H Chondrites 15 Rb-Sr 4.59 +/- 0.06 L Chondrites (rel. und.) 6 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.12 L Chondrites 5 Rb-Sr 4.38 +/- 0.12 LL Chondrites (undist.) 13 Rb-Sr 4.49 +/- 0.02 LL Chondrites 10 Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.06 E Chondrites (undist.) 8 Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.04 E Chondrites 8 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.13 Eucrites (polymict) 23 Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.19 Eucrites 11 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.30 Eucrites 13 Lu-Hf 4.57 +/- 0.19 Diogenites 5 Rb-Sr 4.45 +/- 0.18 Iron (+ St. Severin) 8 Re-Os 4.57 +/- 0.21 ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 291; duplicate studies on identical meteorite types omitted.) As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on about 4.5 billion years, between hundreds of different meteorites and by several different dating methods. Further, studies on individual meteorites generally give concordant ages by multiple radiometric means. For example: ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Meteorite Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Guarena w-rock Ar-Ar 4.44 +/- 0.06 13 sam Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.08 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Olivenza 18 sam Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.16 w-rock Ar-Ar 4.49 +/- 0.06 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Saint Severin 4 sam Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.33 10 sam Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.15 w-rock Ar-Ar 4.43 +/- 0.04 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Juvinas 5 sam Sm-Nd 4.56 +/- 0.08 5 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.07 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Y-75011 9 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.05 7 sam Sm-Nd 4.52 +/- 0.16 ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ (After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 286; meteorites dated by only a single means omitted, duplicated methods omitted.) Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly by Rb-Sr dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are in exact agreement with the solar system "model lead age" produced earlier. [Chris Stassen] 3.31 Q: What is evolution? A: "Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene frequencies of populations over the generations in time that produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with modification": a painfully slow process, usually operating over hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years and generations. Geological and paleontological additions to this definition are noted in the fact that over the span of geological time, organisms have progressed from the simple to the more complex. There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, which should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the general process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise to new species) change, which is considered a well established scientific fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to higher life forms [though now largely discredited], (3.) the particular history of the "Tree of Life" and the origins of various groups, or phylogenies, which are interpreted from the fossil record and biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism of evolution, which Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural selection", but is currently being investigated and modified by scientific research. Punctuated equilibria is an example of the latter. Here following are some of the major arguments and objections that Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers from the perspective of mainstream science: 1. FACT, OR THEORY? Evolution became established as fact because it unified thousands of disparate observations by comparative anatomists, botanists, field naturalists, geologists, paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists. Without the unifying concept of a changing world in process over eons of time, modern science could not and would not exist. That species are related through common ancestry is supported by scores of interlocking research fields, each which supports the rest. Evolution is as well established fact as gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not going to stop falling in midair while scientists debate whether Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing over time, while we continue to search for the why and how of evolution. If one insists that evolution is but one interpretation of nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of dinosaurs and species that preceded them and postdated them were _not_ related to each other, appeared full blown and had no common connections? Such a model, call it "religious" or call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful inquiry. It is rather an answer that stops all further questions. 2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION: While some critics concede that new species (_Drosophilia sp._, for example) have been produced in the lab, they claim general evolution has never been experimentally demonstrated. By this, they mean breeding a succession of progressively "higher" or more complex species. But, there is no such theory of general evolution (i.e., a strawman), the old Victorian notions of "inevitable progress" as opposed to the simple to more complex progress noted in the fossil record, biologically are outmoded and well discarded. 3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS: The time worn and oft-repeated claim that there are no transitional forms is demonstrably false. The Great Karroo region of South Africa is a vast graveyard of mammal-like reptiles, a whole array of species whose anatomy was intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There is the famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth, claws and dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between reptiles and birds. And the African homonid fossils represent creatures with human-like dental patterns, small brains, arms longer than humans but shorter than modern apes, with pelves, feet and legs for upright walking. Transitional fossils are fairly rare because, going by current theory, most species remain stable for long periods. When change does occur, it happens in a relatively rapid (in geological terms) timespan and oftimes occurred in small, isolated populations. The fossil record has been compared to freezing a multileveled parking garage in time. Most cars would be found on the various floors, with very few on the ramps. The amount of time each car spends on the ramp is short when compared to the length of time it remains parked, yet each must have traveled the ramp. Another evidence of transition is found in biogeographic distribution of living species. On Pacific island chains, biologists have tracked populational species across thousands of miles, discovering intermediate forms from one end of the island chain to the other. Among living species, there is a series of intermediate species between lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and thrushes and wrens. 4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF": There is a very common misconception the Darwin thought he had "proved" by logic that species evolved. He was, in fact, a much subtler thinker and philosopher of science. "The change of species cannot be directly proved, and...the doctrine must sink or swim according as it groups and explains [disparate] phenomena. It is unequivocally curious how few people judge it this way, which is the correct way. 5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS: That there are "holes" and unanswered questions in evolutionary theory (just as there are in quantum theory) is incontrovertible, which is normal for healthy science. As noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark forest, would you reject a dim, flickering lantern on the grounds the light it gave was imperfect?" "I think not", mused Huxley, "I think not." 6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST": This hoary old chestnut that evolutionary theory is built on the tautological pretense that "the survivors survive" was laid to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the fittest survive" is an untestable proposition without a uniform definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as an explanation. But whatever the state of those archaic "catch-phrases", such as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from monkeys", the heart of Darwin's theory remains sound: overproduction of offspring in nature, genetic variability and a sorting process, which results in both long-term stability and episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new research is focusing on gaining a deeper understanding of these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential sorting as they occur on various levels within populations of the same organism. 7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE": Some assume that research and inquiry into biology and zoology must lead to the formulation of fixed laws like those of chemistry or physics. Dissecting the anatomical structures of extinct creatures, working out their distribution in evolutionary hyperspace and reconstructing the Earth's past indeed meets and exceeds all the criteria of science; as evidenced by paleontology, geology and biostratigraphy. The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution as a "humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors in understanding and even the loss of human life. For example, Dr. L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda University (Seventh-Day Adventist) "school" of medicine tried to save the life "Baby Fae", an infant born with a severely malformed heart. He surgically implanted a baboon's heart, but the organ was quickly rejected and the child died. He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead use a chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a much better chance of success because of the chimp's closer evolutionary proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that he "didn't believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see what it had to do with the practice of medicine." Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context quoting, and bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's oxymoronically monikered "Institute of Creation Research"; who spend their time at their self-described "God directed ministry" trying to inculcate their own particularly skewed, and narrowly sectarian, version of Biblically mandated (or so they say) morality, into the science curricula of public schools across the nation; and we can see how the unfortunate bastard child of hard-shell religion and fanatical pseudoscience is indeed homeless. Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", other than a prime example of a once popular belief that has been shown to be an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific documents, specious reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-mechanistic processes, it belongs in that dustbin of outdated and useless speculations like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and Geocentrism. Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR crowd try to pawn off as "religiously-ordained". Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an authoritarian philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of supernaturalism trying, in vain, to somewhere find a home. It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is hanging out "No Vacancy" signs whenever they ooze into town. [Marty Leipzig] Í4: Debate TermsÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ 4.1 ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, a basic scientific principle.) Examples: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise." "Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has shown any proof that they are real." Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is generally assumed innocent until proven guilty. Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example: "A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water to be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water, even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such flood occurred." 4.2 ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. Examples: "The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?" "Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong." 4.3 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot. 4.4 ACCENTUS Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from the emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase. 4.5 AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement, and the truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the syllogism below, P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent: P implies Q Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent ______________ Therefore: P is true Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true. 4.6 AMBIGUITY Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is used in different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are several types of "fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY [4.7], COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS [4.4]. 4.7 AMPHIBOLY Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity involved is of an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature. Amphiboly is a syntactic error. The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can result in a meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has pants for men with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!) 4.8 ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always been." Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It must be true! 4.9 ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause the acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include threats of fear to cause acceptance. Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god. 4.10 ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those with more money are more likely to be right. 4.11 ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA FLAME) Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack someone's character instead of dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments: (1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial. 4.12 ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam." 4.13 ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted. 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs constant repitition in asserting a truth. Short form: an argument that is repeated so many times that you suffer nausea. 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer than something else. Or that something is better because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the opposite of the "argumentum ad antiquitam" fallacy. 4.16 ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude (i.e., the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions of audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also known as "Appeal to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2) demagoguery, and (3) advertising. 4.17 ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on matters outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also refers to a fallacy of simply resorting to appeals to authority. 4.18 BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING) Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the very conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying this is: Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you are trying to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus in Probando." This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII". Example: The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real becase the Bible said so. 4.19 BIFURCATION Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation is the presentation of a situation or condition with only two alternatives, whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist. 4.20 COMPOSITION Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a property solely because its various parts have that property. Composition is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. 4.21 CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P. Example: Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution supports Hitler. 4.22 CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they occur simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together they are causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events. This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy. 4.23 DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the consequent from the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its antecedent. P implies Q Not-P ____________ Therefore: Not-Q 4.24 DIVISION Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts have a property solely because the whole has that same property. Division is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. 4.25 EQUIVOCATION Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in one sense in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not determined, and (2) having different meanings equally possible. Equivocation is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is "unovocation," in which a word always carries the same meaning through a given context. 4.26 FALLACY OF INTERROGATION Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the answerer may wish to deny, but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave anything that would count as an answer. Any answer to the question "Why does such-and-such happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen. 4.28 FALSE ANALOGY Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features of two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A false analogy involves comparing two things that are NOT similar. Note that the two things may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is being argued. 4.29 SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION) Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's application. This fallacy is also known as the "hasty generalization." It is a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases to a general rule; generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to statistics: Much of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, the better the representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization is a sweeping generalization. 4.30 IGNORATIO ELENCHI Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition but succeeds only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands for "pure and simple irrelevance." 4.31 ILLICIT PROCESS Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in the conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid categorical syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, then it must be distributed in the premises. There are two types of Illicit Process: Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor Term. 4.32 PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS) Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question. Example: US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no longer started with a prayer. 4.33 NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity of some other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but really is not. 4.34 NON-SEQUITUR Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A conclusion drawn from premises that provide no logical connection to it. 4.35 PETITIO PRINCIPII @MSGID: 1:250/820 00bea09c Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes its conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii has two forms: 1. P is true, because P is true. 2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true. And B is true because P is true. Similar to circular reasoning. 4.36 POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to a conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event precedes another event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of the second event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty Generalization. 4.37 QUATERNIO TERMINORUM Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur four or more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are only three terms: a subject, a predicate, and a middle term. 4.38 RED HERRING Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points being made, and toward a different conclusion. It is not logically valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points. 4.39 REIFICATION Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into a concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is also sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization". 4.40 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle) Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of "argumentum ad ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. 4.41 SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD) Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double standard is employed by the person making the assertion. Special pleading typically happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the argument he/she is making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments. 4.42 STRAW MAN Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for the purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished. It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that one has made. Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys. 4.43 SWEEPING GENERALIZATION Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a Sweeping Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation in which the features of that particular situation render the rule inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty generalization. 4.44 TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE) Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a wrong by applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal with the subject under discussion. 4.45 UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a categorical syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises. 4.46 ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime or ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian." [3.13] 4.47 HECTOR'S LAW Description: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has debunked itself. [Hector Plasmic never put this in words, so I did.] Í5: Biblical Contradiction ListÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ [From Shelby Sherman, Kelsey Bjarnason, Marilyn Burge, Larry Sites and Simon Ewins] God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26 God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3 Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Terah's lifespan. According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8 God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5 Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13 Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42 The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Solomon's reign. Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6 Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12 Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2 Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6 Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4 David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18 David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1 God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5 Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fa- thers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JOH 10:30 I [Jesus] and my Father are one. JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In 2 Kings 10:30, God said that at the Jezreel massacre, Jehu had done "according to all that was in my heart". God was so pleased that he promised Jehu's sons to the forth generation to rule Israel (15:12). Yet Hosea opens his book by judging Jeroboam, Jehu's 3rd generation by saying God will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon hin (Hosea 1:4-5). ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ When God brought the people out of Egypt, he instructed Moses in proper sacrifice. (Ex 34:25-26; NU 6:13-17; 7:84-88; 15:1-14) Lev 7:38 confirms God commanded Moses in this. Yet Jeremiah, speaking for God says, "I gave your ancestors no commands about sacrifices when I brought them out of Egypt" (Je 7:21-23). ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ How could the stars sing (Job 38:4-7) at the creation of the earth when Genesis 1 says stars were created after the earth? ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Taken by David II Sam. 8.4: I Chr. 18.4: 1,700 horsemen 1,000 chariots 20,000 foot soldiers 7,000 horsemen 20,000 foot sldrs ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Ammonite mercenaries II Sam. 10.6: I Chr. 19.7: 20,000 + 1,000 + 32,000 chariots + 12,000 men army of king of Maacah ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Slain by David II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 19.18: 700 charioteers + 7,000 charioteers + 40,000 horsemen + 40,000 horsemen ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Census figures II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 21.5: Israel 800,000 Israel 1,100,000 Judah 500,000 Judah 470,000 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Price of threshing II Sam. 24.24: I Chr. 21.25: floor 50 shekels 600 shekels ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Stalls for chariot I Kings 4.26: II Chr. 9.25: horses 40,000 4,000 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Capacity of the 'sea' I Kings 7.26: II Chr. 4.5: 2,000 baths 3,000 baths ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Is pi equal to 3.0000 as claimed in I Kings 7:23? Two different versions of the words of god in the ten commandments. Who carried Jesus' cross? Who was Jesus paternal grandfather? Is Jesus opposed to divorce or does he allow it? Did Judas hang himself or fall down and "burst asunder"? Acts 9:7 or 22:9? Matthew 27:46,50 or Luke 23:46 or John 19:30? Proverbs 4:7 or Ecclesiastes 1:18 or 1 Corinthians 1:19? Acts 2:30 or Matthew 1:18? Matthew 28:1 or Mark 16:1 or John 20:1? John 10:30 or John 14:28? Genesis 1:25,26 or Genesis 2:18,19? Genesis 7:2 or Genesis 7:8,9? Matthew 5:9 or Matthew 10:34? Matthew 5:39 or Luke 12:51? Matthew 26:52 or Luke 22:36? Luke 6:27 or John 2:15? ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ a) I Kings 6:1 says that 480 years passed from the start of the Exodus to the start of construction on the first temple by Solomon. b) Gal 3:17 says that 430 years passed from the covenant with Abraham to the delivery of the Law to Moses. c) The chapters of Genesis after the flood account give the periods in years that passed between the births of various individuals from Noah to Abraham, giving a period of 390 years from the flood to the covenant with Abraham. Thus, according to the Bible, the Flood took place 1300 years before Solomon began construction of the first temple. Now ... a) The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 BCE by similar analysis in the other direction, placing the flood around 2250 BCE. b) The Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid was built just prior to the 26th century BCE), 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood. c) There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global flood around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice it?) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In Luke 22:41 we have Jesus and the disciples in the garden and Jesus moves away from them to pray. We then get some details about the praying and how he sweated blood in his 'agony' from v42 to v44. In v45 Jesus returns to the disciples and finds that they are all sleeping. My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know what Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he sweated blood? In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In Mark, we find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what Jesus said in his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the time. In Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was awake to witness. Furthermore, in reading these three passages one gets the distinct feeling that Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled by the prospect of being sacrificed for the sins of mankind. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gen. 1:12 --- grass and herb created Gen. 1:21 --- fish and fowl created Gen. 1:25 --- beasts, cattle and creeping things created Gen. 1:27 --- man created Now... Gen. 2:18 --- it is noted that God did not want the man to be alone Gen. 2:19 --- so... beasts and fowl created Note that in Gen. 1:25 beast are created _followed_ by v26 which says that god wanted to create man and in v27 he does. In 2:18 the reason given for creating the beasts etc is that god didn't want man to be alone so he created beasts. How can anyone possibly claim that this is not a blatant contradiction without giving up any appearance that they may be sane? ** To recap... In Gen. 2 the _reason_ that beasts are created is because man should not be alone. This can only mean that man existed prior to the creation of the beasts. In Gen. 1 the _reason_ that man was created was because he was to have dominion over the beasts. This can only mean that the beasts already existed. Note the use of the word 'so' in Gen. 1:27 and the word 'will' in Gen. 2:18. These _have_ to mean that the chronology is as stated. There is no need to believe anything ahead of time. The language used and the statements made make it abundantly clear that the order is different. If anyone denies this then we can only have serious concerns for their mental health. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If there is any area that one would suppose would be cohesive and accurate it should be in the area of the genealogy of Jesus, David and Adam. However, even an area of such importance is contradictory and replete with obvious, glaring errors. (*) Definite disparity. Note first is as early as Jesus' grandfather. (?) Most likely simply a spelling error. (!) Out of sync similarity. (1) Common to both but out of sync. (2) Common to both but out of sync. (3) Back in sync. (4) End of last common sync. (5) Start in sync to Adam. Matthew Luke I.Chronicles ------------ ------------ ------------ Jesus Jesus Joseph Joseph *Jacob *Heli Matthan ?Matthat Eleazar ?Levi Eliud Melchi Achim Janna Sadoc Joseph Azor Mattathias !Eliakim Amos Abiud Naum Esli Nagge Maath Mattathias Semei Joseph Juda Joanna Rhesa 1Zorobabel 1Zorobabel 2Salathiel 2Salathiel Jechonias Neri Josias Melchi Amon Addi Manasses Cosam Ezekias Elmodam Achaz Er Joatham ?Jose Ozias ?Eliezer Joram ?Jorim Matthat Levi Simeon Juda Josaphat ?Joseph Asa Jonan Abia !Eliakim Roboam Melea Menan Mattatha *Solomon *Nathan 3David 3David 3David (2:15) Jesse Jesse Jesse Obed Obed Obed Booz Booz ?Boaz Salmon Salmon ?Salma Naasson ?Naasson ?Nahshon Aminadab Aminadab ?Amminadab Aram Aram ?Ram Esrom Esrom ?Hezron Phares Phares ?Pharez Judas ?Juda ?Judah *Jacob *Jacob *Israel (2:1) Isaac Isaac Isaac 4Abraham 4Abraham Abraham (1:34) Thara ?Terah (1:26) Nachor ?Nahor Saruch ?Serug Ragau ?Reu Phalec ?Peleg Heber ?Eber Sala 4?Shelah *Cainan Arphaxad 5Arphaxad Sem ?Shem Noe ?Noah Lamech Lamech Mathusala ?Methuselah Enoch ?Henoch Jared ?Jered Maleleel ?Mahalaleel Cainan ?Kenan Enos ?Enosh Seth ?Sheth Adam Adam There is a 15 generation difference between Matthew and Luke. Matthew has Jesus descended from David through Solomon and Luke has it through Nathan. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7 The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15 The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matthew 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesus began his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17. Jesus began his ministry while John was free and before being imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesus baptised - John 3:22 Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13 Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38 Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32 Jesus carries his own cross - John 19:17,18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5 Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7 Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Acts 9:7 states that the men with Paul stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone. Acts 22:9 states they did not hear the voice. Acts 26:14 states they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 27:5 states that Judas went out and hanged himself. Acts 1:16-18 it states that Judas "...purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 27:46,50 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ John 10:30 I and my Father are one. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ** This argument logically flawed, in fact neither statement contains enough information to determine whether men or beasts were created first. In principle, it is only required that God had knowledge of man's creation when he created the beasts, and vise-versa, in order for both statements to be true. More specifically, God may have created the beasts to provide company for the men that he knew he would create in the future, or, he may have created man to have dominion over his future creations. If I were to make the statement: "Spacesuits were created so that men could fly in rockets." Would you be able to deduce whether the spacesuit or the rocket was created first? What if I were to say: "Rockets were created to carry men in spacesuits into space." What conclusion would you reach in this case? Whether or not the whole story contains even a grain of truth is another matter. [Bill Fontes] Í7: Echo Sampler (Quotes)ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "In other words, you're full of shit, you *know* you're full of shit, you know that *we* know you're full of shit, and you simply don't have the backbone to come out of the full-of-shit closet." - David Worrell "Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke! Watch out! The sugar-coating you now wear will probably wear off before long. It doesn't take very long, here. We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor Thews "We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it." - Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd "Wrong! I'm the fucking antichrist. Bow down slave!" - Ryan Shaw "If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be afraid to experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac "YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, THEY CHOOSE TO BE GAY. AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS THEM!" - JA "It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day soon every knee will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" - Hampie Mcdonald "A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum community infected the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook "Key words: "we want". Instead of making demands, why not try working to those ends? Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig "Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell." - ML "Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both eyes open, I just consider the source." - ML "I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. The mere fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other than label you with the type of superstition with which you feel most comfortable." - ML "Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come across as such a blightered moron. Perhaps." - ML "Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in that paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and school administrators are there to protect the populace from the Neofascist, hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of Fundamentalist liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of narrowly dogmatic, and hallucinatory, morality as science. Against that we must be ever vigilant. We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad in their tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what they can never attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or swindle." - ML "My name is Marty, and I too, like our illustrious author of the missive immediately above, am an unrepentant fundy basher. Just as some people feel compelled to rubberneck terrible traffic accidents, purchase police scanners to vicariously hear of other's misfortunes or stomp some clod's foot protruding into the aisle in a particularly crowded airline flight; I am possessed by the unrelenting desire, nay, compulsion, to help certain people who are consumed by the passion to make idiots of themselves, either personally or in international electronic fora. When some "person" proudly proclaims that "man evolved from apes"; I see this as nothing more than a plaintive cry for self-immolation. When they claim that there's "boats in dem dere hills"; again, the pitiful cry of a person desperate to be martyred, but without the genetic or intellectual horsepower to carry it out themselves. When they spew plaintive Bible verses to document everything from their own particularly skewed, and oftimes hallucinatory, view of morality to make an attempt at justification of atrocities, injustices and just plain antisociality; they are merely whining, in their own bizarre and stridulatory manner, for someone to come along and humiliate them with a blizzard of fact, logic and reason. And yet some would go so far to condemn my actions. I see it as preforming a service to these benighted individuals; a sort of an electronic version of Dr. Kevorkian." - ML "And you are still short one live Jesus dumbass. What part of that don't you understand?" - George "the Rude One" Rudzinski "Fundies are dazed and confused. Like a duck hit on the head." - GR "So me blowing your head off is okay? I'm beginning to see that such a wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR "Mark 16: 15-19. If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR "I advocate the murder of no one. However, I _do_ advocate referring to an abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led monster, masquerading as a doctor of medicine. Reason: He is one." - "Lon S. Mabon" "Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born again) they become a new person in Christ. New means you start from the beginning. As in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp. "Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't shine. It is a farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, if only you were adult enough to know it." - Marilyn Burge "The fundies that come through here start out by trying to display an attitude of thoughtful discussion. When they find that their mythologies are systematically disassembled and found to _be_ myths, coupled with the friction specifically designed to remove their sugar coating, the actual Christian under said sugar coating is exposed. And you can guess what's under it. I couldn't begin to enumerate those who specifically stated that they wished they could be around to watch the hurtful, educated HolySmoke participants `burn in 'hell.'" - Fredric Rice "'I am saved.' From what? Having to think for yourself?" - FR "Are you just naked, or are you naked for Jesus?" -FR "It's rather like having Freedie Kruger babysit children. Or asking Pee Wee Herman to teach human sexuality. Or asking Jim Bakker to be treasurer of the United States. Or asking Jim Jones to look over the refreshments." - FR "To believe in something without reason, that is to say, without reasonable grounds, is superstition, whether it is a belief that a black cat crossing your path will bring you bad luck, or God may pass judgement over your soul and send you to Hell for your evils." -Michael Gothreau "FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG! THE GOD OF ABRAHAM DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING. SO GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ATHEIST ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS, AND WAKE UP. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN. THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN. AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE HEADED! OH I SEE. ALABAMA? YOU BETTER WATCH OUT. EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL! THE TERMINAL BBS? OH, I UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE TERMANILLY RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF INCEST! HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER BOY." - Christopher Calabrese [Christian family values] "Debunking religions based upon hot air... is why this echo exists. Exposing hot air, although it cannot be seen by the naked eye, is a simple matter of having a theist speak into a balloon. When you pop the balloon, there is no more substance than what was there before. (Other than perhaps some saliva. Some theists froth more than others.)" - Styx Allum "Omnipresence precludes any "separation from the body of Christ". One cannot escape omnipresence. Therefor, your god would also have to exist within Satan." - SA "My clue, is Christ is coming, soon. Where are you going to be, when he comes to take the believers, in Heaven or hell." - Marguerite Kendall "If I was a satanist, humanist, or an atheist, it would be no problem. But because I stand for Christ, I get jumped on, name called, etc. There have been posts, on satanism, and humanism. But nothing happens, to the person who posts those messages. That person gets praise heaped upon him. But when I posted something on christianisty, adverse reaction happen." - MK "Faith in yourself will not help when the problem is beyond your control." - Steve Bedard "This ain't the harmony echo, dipshit." - Robert Curry "If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless." - RC "Funny how the gods tend to share the Political views of those who speak for them." - RC "Creation 'Science' is to science what Rap 'Music' is to music: a lot of noise and utterly incoherent." - David Rice "It is like arguing with a lump of shit. The longer one argues with shit, the sillier one appears, and the shit ain't listening." - DR "In response to entreaties from around the world, the leadership of Iran has announced that it will deal with Salman Rushdie in a more Christian fashion. But they have to find a place for the stake where it won't set an oil well on fire." - DR (It's a JOKE, bozo) "You're one complete pile of shit, and a bigoted one, too. Even your god damnable bible says "created man in his own image". And you have the audacity to say that an innocent child does not have the right to be saved by your god damned god?" - Dan Ceppa "Your English teachers only use a 23-letter alphabet? I've heard of cutbacks in education, but that's rediculous!" - DC "I predict that you will take a breath of fresh air and actually take another. Hey!!! Why the fuck are you turning blue on me???? Well, one less fundy to worry about......" - DC "Mankind didn't progress as far as it has by saying, "God said that men can't fly" but by breaking those laws and flying. What is going on around us now is an attempt to do just the same thing that the Romans used xianity for: To keep people ignorant, ignorant as to who they really are and are far they can go." - DC "You're incapable of any rational response, so why start now?" - DC "Please don't apologize. It makes me want to taunt you a second time." - Shelby Sherman "We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in this forum - Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS "By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is long dead and rotted in the grave. I've profaned your Savior, now what do you intend to do about it?" - SS "Damn, I asked for evidence and all I got was this lousy Josh McDowell T-shirt." - SS "Tell me, why does God need to prove himself? He is based on belief. You are to believe, not to question! God performs miracles every day." - Steve Lew "This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled with those who will one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, whether they like it or not! And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching you say it." - Martin Riley "Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong... Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, Matthew 10:23... all claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. Gee, maybe he's dead." - Simon Ewins "To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after Paul's letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about Jesus, is to accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler. To accept as truth what Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of Acts says about Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as supported by what Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE "Christianity has nothing to be proud of. Any good that it may have done has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and religious hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE "Paul only quotes Jesus twice. Why would that be if he is basing his entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of Jesus?" - SE "God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson "I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones "When we believe that our individual will is the superior force in the cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks. Jesus's struggle in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served beyond our own self-interests. . ." - JJ "My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on me." - Steve Winter "Aids cures queers." - SW "I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone "Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals? Cockroaches are male and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to your congregation." - Don Martin "Have you any notion how very boring your constant mantra of "C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton" gets to be after a while? Nobody denies that there have been and continue to be brilliant people who believe in religions. Their impact, however, on our daily lives is a great deal less than the folks with 12-guage shotguns who may appear at any moment to "justly punish" a baby killer (and anyone standing in the vicinity) for Christ, the Jim Bakkers who suck the money from the poor, the Pat Robertsons who seek to change the laws and other believing riff-raff who otherwise share precious little with the likes of C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton, et al." - DM "Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian "trying to make a difference"? Who ignores the various "Family" groups in Colorado and Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human race? They are certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the Christians in Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do not return them? Who can deny that they are "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly Christians, who seek to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in the U.S. Senate where he can work his magic on all of us? Are they not "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in California, who work at getting elected to school boards by concealing their Christian agenda by evasion, silence or outright lying, so that they can impose that agenda on the young from a position of power. They, too, are "trying to make a difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the Christians "trying to make a difference," but we dare not turn our backs on the vile bastards." - DM "Well for all of you who criticize Mr. Robertson, I can say this. Judge yourself before judging others. You might make fun of us fundies now, but we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what worries you the most financially. We Christians are sick and tired of being accused of wrongdoing and ridiculed. Lets face it, there are more of us than you. And we intend to take back the Government that Christians founded. And cut off your grants that supply some of you with the money to wage war on us. Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare you and thats good cause We are going to put you and the evolutionist garbage you try to push on us on the run." - Joe Savelli "Okay. I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested for praying in the Florida restaurant. But only because you and others are hung up on it. This should clear the way for what I really want to prove. That is the Historicity of Jesus. So, Robert, you have my retraction for what it's worth. (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS "Libralism and humanism IS evil. Both are destined to fail" -JS "I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil. Beware! The Jew is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / Gerald Norris / Jack Roberts / Frank Waring "If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per Jewish tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)? I wonder- and I hope he lands feet first on ALL televangelists. (Preying on fear sickens me!!!)" - Rachael Roth "Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it in gasoline, then shove it up your ass and light it. Have a nice day, motherfucker." - C. J. Henshaw "What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun past time for those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' assholes." - Coridon Henshaw "Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" - Liz Saunders "EH> [...] Btw, change your initials. they make you look canadian." - Martin Goldberg "Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead Elvis. Jesus, the smell is atrocious. Did something die up there?" - MG "The Theory of Gravity does not address these either. Am I to believe that my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG "i read this. It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, and a host of other devices that might fool a very stupid person. It is not, however, evidence." - MG "See you in Hell.... (I won't be there, but I'll be able to see YOU there.)" - Doug Brewer "Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single women who obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens? 1) A tremendous amount of tax money is freed up. 2) Men fill the now vacant positions, thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 3) Children have one parent home all the time; thus they are raised by their parents instead of daycare. I think the advantages of this are obvious. In contrast, look at what we have instead...." - DB "You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism. You do not have to worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanists believe that everyone is their own God. You need only worship yourself, and you are practicing Satanism." -DB "First of all, innocence is subjective. Who is truly innocent? Just a question... Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in the Bible) died for a reason. Third, Christians view death as a beginning, not an end. So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's judgement) wouldn't pose that big a problem for me. There isn't that much worth hanging around here for, anyway." -DB "Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens is not all irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our most earnest efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson "Perhaps if you actually bothered to read literature rather than burn it, you would have seen them." - PS "Christian [Miller], you are the LAST person who needs to be giving me advice on how I should go about living with myself. You are a disgrace to your god, your religion, your species, your family, and yourself. I find you to be a repugnant and worthless human being--and I write all of this with not a single trace of anger." - PS "There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has been bricked over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS "Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures in your religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage it. Such is a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." - PS "I think you're full of shit. I wasn't in it for gain. I was in it because I believed. I was in it because I had faith. And when my faith was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody answered my prayers, nothing. Your God, if he exists, is the most callous deity to ever be worshipped, bar none. And his followers exemplify this beautifully." - PS "Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green "I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions cause you so much grief." - SG "The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their brains fall out. Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the opening, at which time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse has run off, and never let anything else in or out. Then they come to Holysmoke and start posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot waves and dead presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying sunlight and quoting winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic" "He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants it to say, carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as "parables" and then reinterpreting them, too. Finally, ignore any more logical explanations and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add flood water and bake in hell to taste." - HP "It's laughable, really. The fundies claim "gods exist!" When you ask them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they eventually get around to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist." When you ask them for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just know it." And when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually get "you can _sense_ that gods exist."" - HP "I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that xtianity is true? Would you mind sharing it with us? Or are you just full of shit as usual?" - HP "Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP "Now go shoot yourself. For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. Don't forget to repent first." -HP "What an assinine, baseless assertion. Just because Mikey has no evidence, you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." -HP "Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP "Fundy motto: no sense makes sense." -HP "Yep. I agree. All bibles should be put under rocks. Big rocks. In the ocean. On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy "Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." - Jeff Pruett "Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff? The entire story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit. It has no more validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras." - John Musselwhite "So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta our hair?" - David Worrell "*Anybody* [Bosnian Serbs] that makes a habit of shelling civilian population centers at random is *not* interested in peace. The only way to make them stop is to wipe them from the face of the Earth." - DW "At the very least, we should sell (or "loan") the Bosnians [Muslims/Croats] good counter-battery radar and some MLRSes. Everytime the Serbs fired anything bigger than a rocket-launched grenade, their position would be enveloped by thousands of bomblets. After a while, they'd loose their fascination with artillery." - DW "So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to prevent `experimentation'? You disgust me. Maybe we should beat the hell out of Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with Christianity?" - DW "Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to you?" - DW "I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to legislate agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - Robert Rice "God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one chance against My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life Non-Christians!!" - Jason Bridges "The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and Earth's magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have been many, many times stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks "You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to live with it (your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, hellbound schnook)" - John Prewett "May Jesus continue to let you live. Long enough to get your head out of your ass." -JP "This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ. There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - JP "I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will publicly reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the "beast" of the Revelation." - JP "I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of fundamentalists" - Unknown "Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's my aura of wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline. Really it is." - Aaron Boyden "No. However, there is life before death. It probably deserves more of your attention than you've been giving it." -AB "Show me exactly which Israelis were brought to Israel by God, as opposed to the local airlines. Next." - Kelsey Bjarnasson "If you believe it, you don't know it. If you know it, you don't need to believe it. Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or the other, why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB "As another opined, isn't it odd that miracles no longer happen now that we have the technology to record them?" - KB "Okay, fine. But how much of it is "God's truth", and how much is mere fairy tale or absolute bulltwaddle? Was there really a global flood? No? Then is the Bible is lying to us, or is God? Oh, there was a global flood? Then the lack of supporting evidence means that God is lying to us, by intentionally destroying or hiding that evidence, right? Hello?" - KB "No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are plenty (too many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping this planet (over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of the world's population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any more people breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber "Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was praying that his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK flew out of the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and arrested him. MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and tried to prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen mentioned in Luke 16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased the Culinary History of Aviation. He goes on trial December 1." - Jason Rosendale "What your missing David, is the most bible believing Christains do not question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of sin? What does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." -- Kenneth McAbee "Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not mean that I am here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM "Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement that God is an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the choice to make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and go to hell. With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most hateful thing ever created, I still would not want to go to hell, and I would still believe in him." - KM "She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for the life of this little one back. After 15 minutes or so a crowd was gathered (you can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of her eye starting to approach. But the people pressed around her so, that the police couldn't get through. After a half hour or more of continuing to pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter Sawyer "I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any rights and i never will." - Don Ward "I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an _assistant moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all types of people. Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me run this bias _echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a respectable "echo", for the good of all." - DW "Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals? "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is it only the Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because they have the mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47 (Alan Kern) "And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, you'll find that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and social outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. But then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you don't notice these things." - Quentin Fai "I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone who's been soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to notice, though." - QF "When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there will be no need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives whatsoever. Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments and othersuch will be out of place as well. For we who are his children will live under the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and he will be our God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't be around anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do not speak here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper "Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my pitchfork." - Satan "The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline "I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God even further than do pagan men." - Jim Staal "Do you now know why we don't eat pork. Its what distinguishes us from people like you. The flesh contains microbes that invades your brain cells and couses such twisting of the mind as one can see from the language used above. This is how the mind reacts to such desieses. Some people get infected and some don't. I think David Rice and Sean McCullough are effected with the desiese too." - Shabeir Khan "now, I wash my hands of you since I have no further need nor desire to read the lying babblings of a twisted little fuckhead." - Karl Schneider "This seems to be a funny debate for a Religous Conference. Do y'all need prayin' for? Perhaps you need a demon cast out? Hmm?" - Clayton Davis "As for why you would fear homosexuals, here are some common reasons. 1. One is afraid of the prospect of enduring a sexual overture of a nature one finds repellent. 2. One is afraid that homosexuality is a plot to destroy all decency and "family values". 3. One is afraid that ones offspring might choose to go that way if given the option. 4. One is afraid that oneself might choose to go that way if given the option. 5. One is afraid that giant flaming meteors might descend on one's head because of the behavior of one's neighbours. 6. One is afraid that everyone might choose to abandon reproduction, leading to the extinction of the human race. 7. One is afraid that people won't be willing choose one's virgin daughters over oneself when they feel like gang-raping somebody."- David Johnston "For the last time: Omnipotence does not include the ability to do the logically impossible." - Michael Hardly "I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess YOU are now in." - Joanna Amren "Clearly, anything that "demonstrably disagrees with reality" cannot be from God, and therefore should be discarded." - Rick Mcfarlane "In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo NOW." - Steve Wallis "You're a druid, and think trees are alive?" - Christian Miller "That would be due to your own ignorance and bigotry, and would certainly not be their fault. OTOH, if I thought it would make you barf, slip, and fall off a ninety foot cliff, I'd kiss John Prewitt right on the lips and retrieve his tonsils with my tongue." - David Hilling to Christian Miller 7.5 Multi-quotesÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Please show me ONE instance of a scientist especially one that specializes in the mechanisms of evolution that claims that evolution states that man descended from monkies." - Martin Goldberg "Maybe Creationists are descended from the same branch that produced monkeys rather than the one that produced the apes. After all, they do have a tale!" - John Musslewhite ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "She doesn't behave like a homosexual male. She behave like a WOMAN. The homosexual male behaves like a woman; not the other way around. Besides, she's anotomically correct for acting like a woman." - Christian Miller "So a=b but b<>a? You're so fucking stupid you don't even realize you're stupid." - Karl Schneider ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "If matter doesn't exist, what kills you at the bottom?" - Unknown "If it is not matter, then most likely it is mind" - Lee Woofenden "ROFL! Lee, what's your brain made of? Matter, perhaps? :-)" - "Hector Plasmic" "I see that Lee's at it again...." - Dan Ceppa "And before you start telling us the mind doesn't come from the brain, would you care to remove your brain _before_ telling us? Should be no problem if your mind is _not_ your brain, after all. Just another little test that you, too, can perform in your own home town." - HP "That must be Hector's Experiment, part II, for those that are stupid enough to perform part one and perhaps actually survive the first experiment." - DC ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Did you forget that the world is round and that I am both east and west of you at this very moment?" - Ryan Shaw "No I didn't - did you forget that the end of straight lines never meet? Sort of a small rule of geometry.... For a further examination" - Glen Buckley ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I have faith. That's all I need." - Christian Miller "If faith was all you needed for anything, then you could live in Antarctica sans clothing or food. Do so." - Preston Simpson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "But Hitler did NOT decide to be a Christian. He was a Roman Catholic Jew. One cannot be a Christian and a Roman Catholic. You have just eliminated faith. Hitler made the wrong decision. (Several in fact)." - Anthony Grigor-Scott "Remember, it's spelled "Anthony Grigor-Scott". There's a hyphen between the last two names; the space, as you may know, is between his ears." - Robert Jackson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "God sends no one to Hell." - Christian Miller "I refuse to go to hell. What's going to happen to me?" - David Worrell "What do I care? How will you stop God the Father from sending you there? I can see it now: A little five year old brat not wanting to go to school, fighting his 6ft Dad. Yeah, you'll stop God." - CM ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "You fucking moron." - Michael "Mikey Hardly" Hardy "Sugar coating scrape off on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Mikey? :-)" - "Hector Plasmic" ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Damn - what bore does one use when hunting gods? I've seen .700 elephant guns, so I can only assume that a god gun must be something on the order of a 16 inch deck gun." - David Worrell "Naww, use a pellet gun. Gives the god a sporting chance, though still not much of one..." - Dan Ceppa (elipses in original) "Since we've never actually *seen* a God, we must extrapolate the characteristics of these gods from the evidence available to us. The Christians tell us that they want to be like God, but that God is much more powerful than they can ever hope to be. Christians are boneheads. Thus, gods must have an *incredibly* thick skull, necessitating the powerful ordnance referred to above." - David Worrell ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Get thee behind me Satan." - Jerry Wilcox "Bend over." - Satan "Get thee behind me Satan." - JW "Getting just a little bit anxious, aren't we?" - Satan "Not at all. Remember, I have Jesus on my side and I fear nothing." - JW "One sidesaddle and one behind! The man is a walking clusterfuck!" - Don Martin "Wow! What Jesus should do is get in FRONT ... then they can make a little train - Jesus, then Jerry, then Satan, all linked. Perhaps they could add in their god and the archangel Michael, too, one at either end." - Sue Armstrong ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I want to know why that murdering SOB that you worship starves innocents to death." - Martin Goldberg "Because these so called innocents do not believe in God, or, know about God in any way." - Jerry Wilcox ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I take it you've never heard of having your penis pierced, then?" - David Worrell "Hell! I was three blocks away and I heard it." - J.J. Hitt ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I've *never* seen a camel at a salad bar." - David Roosterman "Count yourself among the lucky. They've got terrible table manners. (Lousy conversationalists, too.)" - J.J. Hitt "So, J.j., what's the difference between them and fundys?" - Dan Ceppa "If you ask a camel a question it doesn't understand, it will at least say something original like "ahrrrrooooghunnn" or "yhaaaarrwwwaaarrrrkh" (which very well mean something in Arabic). Our modemvangelists will reply with John 3:16." - JJH ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Well, I guess we have a fundamentally different outlook...it strikes me that a belief in ANY kind of "god", some powerful, "magic", creator being, is more reasonable than matter spontaneously coming into existence out of nothing..." - Mickey Haist Sr. "Nope; they're absolutely identical, as long as you're limiting them to origins. "Where did matter come from?" "Oh, it just went *poof*" "Yeah, right." "Okay, where do you say it came from?" "God did it." "Oh, and where did God come from?" "Ummm... he just... um... went *poof*." "Uh huh." (The other alternative is to simply insist, with no logical basis, that God "jest is". Fine. Apply the same to the universe. Guess what? Identical claims. In any case, the result is the same: since we can at least tell the universe exists, adding deities doesn't amount to diddly.) Now, as soon as you add in the extra attributes of God, it moves from being equally ludicrous to far more so." - Kelsey Bjarnason ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Parable of the New Soap. Once upon a time in a far-away land far, far away, a young man named Joshua announced the discovery of a marvelous new kind of soap. People were skeptical at first, but they soon found that this new soap made everyone very happy because it got them so clean. Because it was so powerful, it got rid of dirt and stains that had been around for years. In our parable, Joshua's soap is the Gospel of Jesus Christ." - Marguerite G. Kendall "It can't be; they're not comparable. In the one case, there is a demonstrable positive effect of using the product [soap] - one gets clean and happy. In the other case, [Jesus] there is a demonstrable *negative* *effect - one's brain goes to mush, and if seriously infected, one has a tendency to try to control society or kill people." - Kelsey Bjarnason ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Democracy is impossible in the presence of even ONE Jesus worshipper!" - Sean McCullough [anarchist] "What the HELL is the matter with you? Your starting to become justlike the christians are! Judgeing everybody else.Dammit you've really pissed me off.It's okay to take shots at their religion, but it's another thing to make character assesments and pass judgements on MILLIONS of people you've never met. [...] I'm disgusted with you." - Luke Clark [Pagan] ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ 7.75 A few short skits.ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ THE TALE OF ASMODEUS' CURSE Courtesy of Rick McFarlane, EdWeird Mills, J.J. Hitt, Al Schroeder, etc. etc. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ QUOTH HERR MC FARLANE: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good morning, Edweird. EM> Ever' now-n-then, I see mention of some mythical poster named EM> Asmodiddly-something-or-other. Asmodeus. Also known by many unsolicited and uncomplimentary nick-names. EM> Having linked up too late, EM> evidently, to enjoy the good works of this chap, I'd be deeply EM> beholden to anyone who might have a few tidbits archived, that I EM> might know what's being talked about when the name comes up... A real True Satanist (tm). Not one of those kids that is just into weird stuff and calls himself a Satanist - you know, the ones who give Satanism a bad name - no, not one of them. A real True Satanist. J.J. called him a white punk on drugs (nasty J.J.). He appeared to be offended and said many evil words intended to impress All. J.J. was unimpressed. As was All. Asmodeus cursed J.J. Nothing happened. J.J. taunted him (nasty J.J.). Asmodeus said he was just kidding before - playing mind games with J.J. - but now J.J.'s taunting had made him mad, so he gave J.J. a For Real True Satanic Curse (tm), invoking many Evil Spirits (whom he knew on a first name basis). Nothing happened again. Repeatedly. Over and over again, nothing happened to J.J (who posted a note to All every time nothing happened to hir - this part got a bit boring). Apparently the Evil Spirits were playing mind games with Asmodeus (nasty Evil Spirits). Other people began begging Asmodeus for their very own curse. Everyone seemed to want one. They were much in demand. But only J.J. was so blessed. Everyone else was jealous. Then Al's dryer blew up. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DAVE HAMILTON AS A FRANCOPHONE: (with Dr. Mratin Gledbrog) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ MG> A few years ago, my wife and I were in Lucerne, Switzerland. We went MG> intot his restaurant and with my best fumbling Hoch Deutsche I asked MG> for a menu. Felt pretty proud of myself too. Once in northern Quebec I found myself in a restaurant where I knew more French than either waitress knew English. I managed to provide the day's entertainment by ordering an electric stove for dinner. They didn't even have a chance to be hostile with those tears running down their cheeks. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ KAREN DAVIS ON OMNIPOTENCE: (with Kenneth McAbee) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ KM> No, not punished for my actions, but burn in the lake of fire forever KM> because they never accepted Christ and therefore did not accept his KM> payment for their actions. But they would not be punished because of KM> my actions. KD> Why is it that pretending to die is payment for anything when simple KD> forgiveness should be enough? KD> I don't need to die in order to forgive people. And I'm NOT KD> omnipotent. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DAVID WORRELL vs. KEN'S WHINES, er, KEN WIENS (Unlabeled passages are Worrell's) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DW>> Would *you* like some cheese, Kenny? KW> More of the same kinds of airheaded responses as is also KW> common with the heathens on this Conference. Keep up the KW> good work. Is Jesus proud of you for the above remark? DW>> No, the Bible does that all by itself. We just like making DW>> you morons the butt of our jokes. KW> See what I mean? More one-liners. If you ever come up with KW> anything substantive that will be a genuine miracle. ROFL!!! Too bad you'll not be able to see what is so amusing. Someone should put this one in the FAQ. [And I just did! SMcC] ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ JASON HARMON FINALLY HAS HAD MORE FUNDIE INANITY THAN HE CAN TAKE!! (With Jim Staal as the Fundie, and Sue Alexander as Another Heathen) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ SA> Oh, by the way, I would still like to see your evidence that we SA> are the good guys and "they" are the bad guys. Just having been born SA> and raised in this country does not mean a damn in this argument. JS> JS> OK, here goes: 'In God We Trust' vs God-less Communism. I rest my JS> case. ...pause... You are one of the most ignorant fucks it has ever been my mispleasure to meet. You are a disgrace to whatever species you belong to, and it sure as hell ain't humanity. ... Jesus loves you. I think you're shit wrapped in skin. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ STEVE "HOMOPHOBE" PRATT PISSES HALF THE PLANET OFF! (Including Your Humble FAQ Scribe And A HUGE Cast Of Characters!) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ACT I. With John Musselwhite as "A Man With At Least Five Living Neurons" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- St> I have never seen anywhere in the HOLY SCRIPTURES that the abomination St> of homosexuality deserves any rights at all. However, I am not so What utter bullshit! You will also find that holy scriptures say it's an abomination to wear clothing of mixed fibres and that if your child talks back to you you can take him to the village square and stone him to death. I suppose that's OK with you, even if homosexuality isn't. St> You MUST read and obey the salvation plan found in Acts 2:38 of the ACTS? Written by that charlatan of Tarsus? He sucked you guys in REAL good, didn't he? See what happens when you ride without a hat? His sunstroke started a religion! St> I realize that I will draw fire from many sources, but remember St> this...Judgement IS real and at that time EVERY knee shall bow and St> EVERY tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..... I hope you aren't wearing a cotton/polyester shirt right now or you're in BIG trouble with God! Idiot! John ... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ UNDERTURE: THE HOMOPHOBE *bores* THE MODERATOR TO SLEEP! ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ > I realize that I will draw fire from many sources, > but remember this...Judgement IS real and at that > time EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall > confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..... [YAWN] What's real is real. What's fantasy is also real (REAL FANTASY). You must lead a REAL FANTASTIC life of fantasy, Steve. Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief. Faith has no effect on fact. It only changes perception/expectation. Be blissful... Or would that be "Blissed be"? Heh. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ACT II: DAVID WORRELL TEACHES BIOLOGY 047 TO AN HOMOPHOBIC AUDIENCE!! ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ St>> SIN will enter heaven. I have heard so many of these animals, no St>> not animals, for animals know to copulate with the opposite sex St>> as nature teaches, but yet these wicked idiots, try their best to Buy yourself two white mice (one male and one female) and two aquariums. Let those two mice breed at will. Once you have at least 2 new males, put them in the second aquarium. Get back to us with the results. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ACT III and FINALE: THE FAQ SCRIBE KICKS ASS AND TAKES NAMES! (FIGHT SCENE) "We're the Authors! Of course we gave ourselves the last word!" -- The Medved Brothers ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ > I have never seen anywhere in the HOLY SCRIPTURES that the abomination > of homosexuality deserves any rights at all. To their very own Hell with your so-called "holy scriptures". The Bible is suitable for usage as toilet paper and damn near nothing else. > However, I am not so foolish as > to not realize that this putrid sickness is never going to just > disappear. It's not a disease nor is it a "putrid sickness". Your homophobic hatred and bigotry, on the other hand, qualify in both directions. > I rest in my knowledge that, no matter WHAT these vile persons think or > believe, God IS going to judge that sickness one day SOON, and they will > have to depart into everlasting punishment, for NO SIN will enter > heaven. Please provide faith-independent evidence of this "God" thing and this "Heaven" thing. You may not use the Bible as evidence for ANYTHING until AFTER you do. Or admit that neither one exists -- NOW, please. "In the beginning God....." -- First Lie in the Bible, Genesis 1:1 > I have heard so many of these animals, no not animals, for animals know > to copulate with the opposite sex as nature teaches, but yet these wicked > idiots, try their best to twist the Scripture to their own damnation!!!! We're not TWISTING the "Scripture". We're IGNORING it. Can you produce your "God" thing for us nasty disbelievers to observe, or is there no reason whatsoever for us to respect your "Scripture" at all?? There CAN be no other choices here. Either your "God" thing exists in the real world (in which case it can be produced for observation by the faithless) or it doesn't (in which case both you AND your so-called "scriptures" are bigoted, homophobic sacks of TIHS). > Yes, they are damned, UNLESS they obey the scriptures, and "Come out > from among them" (the sinner population). I have never sinned. Only those who beLIEve in your "God" thing CAN sin. > You MUST read and obey the salvation plan found in Acts 2:38 of the New > Testament: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the Name of > Jesus for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of > the Holy Ghost". Been there. Got no "gift of the Holy Ghost" -- and no other communication from your so-called "God", either. And I'm not the only one of us here who's done just that, and gotten the same non-answer that I've gotten. > I realize that I will draw fire from many sources, but remember > this...Judgement IS real and at that time EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY > tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..... Jesus, if he ever existed at all (which is doubtful), has NOT existed in any meaningful way in the past 1900-some years. And I'm not bowing down and submitting to some boogieman who exists only in the psychotically deranged imaginations of those who beLIEve in it. Nor am I permitting anyone else to do so in peace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE END (of Steve Pratt, not the FAQ) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ GLEN TODD SHOWS HE PREFERS HAGGIS TO SPAM: (with Leonard Bernier) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Getting a little repetitive with your spamming, aren't you? Can't you even manage to come up with original spams any more? LB> The fool says in his heart, "There is no God". You disprove this by your very presence. LB> The Bible will keep me fron sin OR sin will keep me from the Bible. Evidence? The bible will keep me from sense OR sense will keep me from the bible. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ MARTIN GOLDBERG BLINDS JOHN PREWETT WITH SCIENCE! ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ JP>> Has an observer ever SEEN an atom ? Or an electron ? MG>> Yes to both. JP> Have you ever seen an atom ? Yes. As early as 1970 in one of my first freshman chem texts were pictures of atoms in a palladium catalyst crystal. If you want to argue that atoms, like god, do not exist because they are invisible, you have far to go. We use many other tools besides sight to gather evidence for science. So far, none of the most sophisticated has shown that a god of any description exists. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ROD SWIFT SHOWS THE CHRISTIAN GOD'S JUDGMENT IS IMPAIRED! (With Michael Hardy as A Brainless Fundy) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ MH> Inaccurate. I'm only saying that God, as creator of the human race, has MH> the right to judge the human race, and I trust that His judgment is MH> fair. But judgement would not be required if God actually took the time to make his creation perfect, would he? Why would a deity create something only to damn it? For the joy of damnation? MH> I'm only saying that it is absurd to accuse MH> God of moral failing for judging evil. I agree. We should accuse God of moral failing for screwing up the creation! He refuses to fix his creation. He refuses to act like any other creator and demand 100% reliability and operation of every created unit. He's a *sadist*. MH> Free will, including the freedom to do evil, is what makes our choice MH> to do good meaningful. I argue that our feelings are irrelevant. If we create an elevator that happens to respond to calls to go to floors and pick up and deliver passengers, do we give it the creative circuitry to be able to defy the good deeds we create it to do? No! And if the machine did go haywire and malfunctioned, we'd fix it. Why does God not fix the malfunctioning carbon units, Vger? MH> If we cannot fail, then success is meaningless. But if we were all automatons under the direct control of God, we'd not need to feel "success or failure". We would just *do*. MH> It's like teaching a class and announcing on the first day that MH> everyone will get an A, no matter what. But God can do anything. If I were a creator or inventor, I'd want each one of my creations/inventions that I sold to be 100% reliable, accurate and durable. Why would God create us, only to allow unreliability, disobedience, inaccuracy and indurability to prevail? Why does he not stop such things? It makes no sense to create something that does not work. Rod "why?" Swift ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ AND NOW, FOR A RELIGIOUS PSALM WHICH TELLS THE TRUTH: (by National Lampoon, courtesy of Karl Schneider) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DETERIORATA Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof. Avoid quiet and passive persons unless you are in need of sleep. Rotate your tires. Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself and heed well their advice even though they be turkeys: know what to kiss, and when. Consider that two wrongs don't make a right, but that three do. Wherever possible, put people on hold. Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment and despite the changing fortunes of time, there's always a big fortune in computer maintnenance. Remember the Pueblo. Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate. Know yourself; if you need help, call the FBI. Exercise caution in your daily affairs, especially with those persons closest to you. That lemon on your left, for instance. Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet. Fall not in love therefore; it will stick to your face. Gracefully surrender the things of youth; birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan; and let not the sands of time get in your lunch. Hire people with hooks. For a good time, call 606-4311; ask for Ken. Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese; and reflect that whatever misfortune may be your lot, it could only be worse in Milwaukee. You are a fluke of the universe; you have no right to be here, and whether you can hear it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back. Therefore make peace with your God, whatever you concieve Him to be: Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin. With all its hopes, dreams, promises and urban renewal, the world continues to deteriorate. GIVE UP. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, PLUG YOUR EARS! (With Michael Hardy) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So I'm going to liven it up with a little game. I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years because I tried to believe that anyone could have something worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear, I decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was coming consistently from the same few people. The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa, David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell. The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least one month, possibly longer. No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with all names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't seem to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter twits. This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.) Go to it, twits! [N.B.: Having found himself almost completely disconnected from HolySmoke after he did this, Mikey officially gave up his "little game" after less than one month!] ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ AND NOW, A GENERAL MAP OF AMERICAN PAGANISM: (Courtesy Norbert Sykes and Pantheacon) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ I just got back from San Jose, California's, 2nd annual Pantheacon, repository for the pagan, the weird, the failed trekkies, the outcasts, and the decidedly religiously odd. It was fun, even just as a spectator sport. I brought back something you might find amusing, in a pagan-religious sense, from a wonderful little magazine that was anonymously put together and distributed (because it rocks the acceptable self-image of paganism?) called The Magical Flame. It has no credits, no contact info, and no copyright. Enjoy! A FIELD GUIDE TO NEOPAGANDOM Is this the first time you've seen this many pagans together? Well, you're in for a deflowering, young earth-worshiper, and you've come to the right place. However, you should realize that there are many, many types of pagans. We old farts just had to keep making the rounds until we either found a group that wouldn't kick us out or founded our own clique. But now, progress has brought us many different flavors to choose from. 1. BRIGHT EYED NOVICE. You just read this cool book about a religion where there's _goddesses_ and gods, and they meet outside, in nature, instead of in some scary old building, and you want to know where to sign up. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Mispronounces god/dess names, has to think a moment about which is widdershins and which is deosil. Has a shiny new athame (rhymes with "A-frame"). 2. I REMEMBER WOODSTOCK. Did I ever tell you about the time I dropped with Kerry Wendell Thornley? Or maybe it was Robert Anton Wilson. I was pretty loaded. Anyway, it was somebody with three names. Or was it three people who had one name? DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Luxuriant gray locks, listens very intently, knows dish about people you've read about. 3. TREEHUGGING NATURE SPIRIT. Prize possession: one of Judi Barry's old tree spikes. Simultaneously believes in universal love for humanity AND returning the planet to a pristine, uncorrupted state. Apt to remove clothes and fondle the shrubbery at a moment's notice. Can discuss compost in detail. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: No meat, no fragrance, no leather, no eco-exploitative garments, no animal tested cosmetics, no cigarette smoke, no drugs, no TV, no car, no corporations, yet very tolerant. 4. ANAL-RETENTIVE CEREMONIAL. Book collection actually holds up the ceiling in places. Is trying to learn how to speak Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, all at once. Does "workings" instead of "rituals." Has a web site that all in Enochian. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Won't go anywhere without a book. Dresses according to planetary coordinates, or according to what Mom finds on sale at Wal-Mart. 5. WOMYNCENTRIC GYNOCRAT. A man's shadow crossed her altar once and she spent three months purifying it. She'll have no wands in her chalice, thank you. No boys allowed in her full moon club. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Tiny axes, just the right size for amputating a penis, are a favored symbol and often hang conveniently from her body parts. When a man approaches she rolls her eyes and stops talking. 6. IS THIS WHERE THE BIG, SMART WOMEN HANG OUT? Oh, they're so nice. All that warm, round, sex positive flesh . . . and you can actually carry on a conversation with them between orgasms . . . pant, drool. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Cute. Horny. Will recite love poetry to you under the full moon. Likes to do it outdoors. Often destitute. All too few of them. 7. HEY BOSS, I'D LIKE TO TAKE FEBRUARY SECOND AS A PERSONAL DAY. Has an entire chapter in their Book of Shadows concerned with spells for purifying the work place. Doesn't mind working on Christmas, especially if there's overtime involved. Quit being overtly pagan at work since getting canned by that closet born again, yet still refuses to say "Merry Christmas." DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Can assume a properly smiley work persona at the drop of a hat. Constantly glances around the room anxiously looking for co-workers and their spies. Non-distinctive hair, no conspicuous tattoos. 8. HI DIDDLY DEE, IT'S A PAGAN CELEBRITY. At conventions, stays on the hotel floor that requires a special key for elevator access. Lurks around hallway corners eavesdropping in order to see if name is being mentioned. Arrives in helicopter especially for ritual. Never seen unaccompanied by beefy Amazonian bodyguards. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Always has plenty of books to autograph and will personally sell them to you at a slight discount from cover price. When you ask them how it's going, they hand you a press release. Seems vaguely afraid of anyone they don't already know. 9. CHILDE OV KAOS. Can name seventeen different industrial bands without pausing to think. Knows what a Prince Albert is. Sleeps in black leather jammies. Painted on their jacket, engraved in their flesh or boldly displayed as jewelry is an emblem which resembles a combination of a corporate logo and an arcane sigil. If you don't know what it is, they'll think you're a dweeb. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Easy to picture as a bike messenger or alternative musician, difficult to visualize as a schoolteacher or research assistant, impossible to imagine as a TV anchor or bank president. Personally feels that if no panicky headlines appear the day after you do a ritual, you screwed up. 10. SCARY DEVIL WORSHIPER. Won't go skyclad. Rarely smiles, except for in a smug, knowing way which insinuates you are an ignorant peasant worthy of conquer. Secretly enjoys Rush Limbaugh and The Bell Curve. Fascinated with Nazis. Probably wouldn't hurt a fly; yet they want you to think they are capable of vast destruction. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Lots of black and red. Men like goatees, women favor eye liner. If you see several of them getting tanked in the hotel bar, it would be wise to stay far away. 11. CROWLEY-IN-A-PAST-LIFE. Every magickal gathering has at least one Crowley-in-a-past-life, along with several variants along the lines of Gerald Gardner, Tituba, Morgan Le Fay. Many of them were abducted by aliens recently, or have had disturbing dreams rich with symbolism which they will tell you, in great detail. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Look for the intense gleam in eyes, the backpack rattling with various psychiatric medicines, the garments that were clearly designed and tailored in outer space. 12. RAVIN' PAGAN. Young and psychedelic. Refuses to do boring Eurocentric rituals and prefers deities from sunny climes with many interesting local plants. Can say "Ayahuasca" ten times, fast. Never goes anywhere without a ritual drum. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Colors that hurt your eyes unless you've taken ecstasy. Bloodshot eyes, peaceful smile, can deliver long quotes from Terrance McKenna. 13. FAIRIE QUEEN. Is he a he? Is she a she? Are they a couple, or are those two a couple, or are all four of them a quadruple? If the answers to these questions could upset or disturb you, best stay away. If, however, the answers to these questions seem overly nosy and judgmental, you might have a real good time. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: When you look at this person, does every sex act you've ever experienced in your life seem hopelessly vanilla? If so, the congratulations -- you have found a faerie. 14. HIGH EPISCOPAGAN. Do their rituals have a script, a choreographer, a lighting director, an orchestra and last three hours? It's a High Episcopagan! It can memorize pages and pages of Olde Englishe, it has more ritual outfits than most people have socks, it considers its main pagan influences to be Gerald Gardner, Judy Garland, and Busby Berkeley. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Book of Shadows exceeds five volumes (or five megs of hard drive space). Knows every note of "Carmina Burana." Better not ask about that 18th century seed pearl trim on their ritual hat unless you've got an hour to spare. 15. FUNDAMENTAPAGAN. If it's in a book, it must be true. If it's in an old book, it must be _really_ true. If it's in an old book that was supposedly handed down from oral transmission from people who couldn't read, then it must _really_ be _way_ true. Has hissy fits if anyone shows up at a circle wearing a watch, glasses, or other mechanical assistance. Believes that anyone who has never sustained themselves from their own land, using only primitive agricultural methods, dare not call themselves a pagan. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Gnashes teeth when the old "Crowley ghosted Gardner's Books" argument comes up. Goes around correcting everyone's gaelic/old norse/latin/babylonian. 16. DANCES WITH BUNNYRABBITS. Uses animal symbolism to express nearly all opinions and feelings. Charter member of PETA. Thinks meat eaters should be publicly executed. Has many, many pets. Has a spirit animal. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Not counting the pagan his/herself, how many animals can you find in this picture? if the count surpasses five (including critters found on tattoos, jewelry, garments and undies), you have found a Worshiper of Beasties. 17. PRIESTS AND PRIESTESSES OF POLITIKAL KORRECTNESS. Analyzes everything they hear for sexist-racist-homophobic-imperialist-Eurocentric content without paying attention to what is actually being said. Believes in personal liberty -- everyone has the right to be overbearing, dogmatic and holier-than-thou; not just the religious right. Incredibly boring and annoyingly righteous at the same time. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Beady, hyper alert little eyes are constantly in motion, waiting for someone to say or do something bad. Constantly has loud and attention-attracting fits when confronted with everyday things such as advertising and corporate franchises. Rudimentary sense of humor rarely activated. 18. OUR LADY OF INTENSE SUFFERING. Is constantly persecuted. You are probably persecuting her right now, you just don't realize it. Became a pagan because she decided it was the most persecuted religion of all. Can't enjoy anything because it would be selfish to have fun when so many are suffering. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Tales of woe. Even less of a sense of humor than #17. Bristles whenever you use the words "masochism" or "whining." 19. I AM NOT SPOCK (at the moment). Knows at least three filks about Cthulhu and at least forty Star Trek jokes. Has found a clever way to create simple furniture from stacks of science fiction paperbacks. Can name ninety different kinds of space ship. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Two-fisted drinking style. many cryptic buttons, badges, patches and other insignia. Too smart for their own good. 20. HET-CASE. Insist that they aren't homophobic; they just think that paganism is about a god and a goddess and they do it, and what could be more simple than that, and it just doesn't work right if you try it any other way. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Signifiers of het-dom such as long, manicured nails and wreaths of flowers (on females _only_; the males have big, bushy beards instead). Are secretly afraid gays and/or lesbians are dying to jump their tender hetero bones. 21. NORSE CODE. Heroic and vikingly, these pagans often get into trouble with festival organizers due to their fondness for running around carrying a battle-axe in one hand and a full mead horn in the other. They do throw the best parties, but if you're a wimp, you are expressly not invited. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Look out for the large and foreboding persons wearing runes, with many pounds of amber dangling from their necks. 22. PENTACLES, INC. This is where all the people who are into paganism come, right? So how come they aren't buying my hand-forged Venus of Willendorf necklaces -- they come in silver or gold, and each one has a genuine cubic zirconium belly button. Would you like a reading? Will that be Visa or Master Card? DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Business cards feature little embossed pentagrams. Rarely leaves the dealer's room and can't believe there are so many jewelry sellers present. 23. MONSTER TRUCK PAGAN. Can grow their own food, build their own house, sew their own clothes, homeschool their children and brew their own organic hooch. Are looking forward to the bleak, post-apocalyptic world postulated by the environmentalists as they can't wait to run amok through the country, worshipping ancient gods, blowing up strip malls and rutting on the divider line of every interstate. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Resourceful, clever and very well versed in the U. S. Constitution. Eats meat with visible twitches of pleasure. is aware that primitive religions have nothing to do with crystals, Atlantis or unicorns. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DEFINITION OF "FUNDY": VEST POCKET VERSION by DON MARTIN ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ========================================================= 3 3 3 Definition of "fundy:" 3 3 Fundy is short for a combination of two words 3 3 emerging from the same Latin root, _fundus_ 3 3 (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). 3 3 The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 3 3 2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their 3 3 thinking with these organs, practice 3 3 _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs 3 3 based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. 3 3 Among some American Protestants, the movement based 3 3 on this belief: opposed to _modernism_. 3 3 3 3 Around here, fundy simply means religious 3 3 asshole. 3 3 3 ========================================================= ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ TYPICAL PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES! (with Jim Germiquet and Judith Bandsma) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ [Unlabelled passages are Germiquet's] JG> and the laws and legal institutions. We are not talking about modern JG> day North America . We are talking of a savage land and a savage JG> people. JB> JB> Bullshit. Women always have and always will be able to adapt to JB> whatever they need to...with or without men. Well it would be pretty hard for women to continue to exist beyond the first generation without men. :-) And of course women will be able to adapt. For example they can use their femininity to seduce men to fall prey to their treachery as Delilah did to Samson , to cut off his hair. In todays society, women use the politician to get extra powers over men. A woman demands to rights to abort a child, the father has no right to stop her. BUT if the woman decides to have the child, suddenly the child is the responsibility of the man and child support is demanded. What kind of BS is that. Rights go hand in hand with Responsibilities. If a woman demands TOTAL rights as to the life and death of that child, then she should also take TOTAL responsibility for it if she has it. CASE CLOSED ! But no, women whine and cry , or the protest and march. They suck up to politicians to demand superiority over the man and then hypocritically talk about "equality". Another example in this vein, is the government has a huge child support agency that chases after men with hundreds of lawyers the woman does not have to pay for. Meanwhile a man has to find a lawyer, pay the expenses of a lawyer, to fight this huge agency. And if he can't afford a lawyer, he gets raped by the system. And now this is not covered by "legal aid". "equality ? NOT!" Where is the huge government agency to take the mans side of the issue ? We pay taxes , but we do not get representation ! Don't talk to me of equality. And then of course they take away the ability for men to defend themselves which used to be physical. SO now in order to stop the mental abuse of a womans bitching and nagging and put downs, men can no longer give her a backhand across the mouth. So he has to take the mental abuse until it drives him crazy enough to get a gun and blow away the next 12 or 15 women he sees on the street before putting the gun to his own head to get away from the monstrous injustice of a society that only cares now about the rights of the women while not providing support and education in dealing with these issues to the men on an equal basis that it is supplied to the women of this society . Now before you get your back up, I am not saying this is "right" I agree it is a "sick" thing to do and that you cannot "justify" it. But women don't get charged for the abuse they dish out to men. If a man were even to complain about it, he would be laughed at and ridiculed. And of course if it ever does get to court , everyone assumes it is the man who is at fault and not the poor little lady. JB> It might behoove you to have us simpering around with a 'poor, JB> pitiful, weak, little me' attitude, but don't count on it ever JB> happening. I may not have as much upper body strength as you have, but JB> I've got a brain that will show me a way to do the same things without JB> needing that strength. What a joke. that is EXACTLY what you do to get your way. Especially in courts or with cops, or with politicians! How do you think you got all this power in the first place except with your snivelling "poor me" crap. And how true is the expression. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Women are becoming more and more corrupt. It is no coincidence that as soon as women got "equal" rights as men the first things they started to do was "get drunk" "smoke" "go to male strip joints" ? The very things they complained about men doing. JB> And yes, I KNOW what I can do. From survival in strange cities in JB> foreign countries to rural living with NO utilities. Oh I am quite sure you do. Ever look down to make sure you haven't grown a penis lately ? JB> Gad, but you are a puke. Nice talk for a "lady". Oh I forgot you aren't a "lady" you are man. And as such demand the right to be as ignorant and abusive as some men choose to be. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ IF ATHEISM IS A RELIGION..... (with Lenny Frank and Charles Creager Jr.) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ [Unlabelled passages are Frank's] I.e., god is specifically and clearly ruled out as an explanatory mechanism, as indeed it is in ALL science. Does this make mathematics or science a "religion"? CC>Atheism dose. I am not against human reason. I have CC>not condemned human reason. We put some trust in human reason all CC>the time. You made the logical error of extrapolating from the CC>specific case to general. Saying, "because atheism relies on CC>human reason all disciplines of human reason are atheistic" is like CC>saying that because dogs have tails all animals with tails are CC>dogs. Failure to mention God is not atheistic but claiming that He CC>dose not exist is. Blah blah blah. if atheism, as the lack of faith in god, is a form of religion, then is virginity, the lack of fucking, a form of sex? Your logical error is in assuming that the absence of a particular belief must be an affirmation of that belief. wrong. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ finis Msg#: 1811 Date: 08-22-96 23:29 From: Holysmoke Faq Read: Yes Replied: No Please find attached hereafter the HolySmoke FAQ in its current incarnation. I have cut it into sections, so folks can find what they are looking for: FAQ Proper The basic FAQ for the Echo. FALLACIES Logical and argumentary fallacy list. CONTRADICTIONS Biblical Contradictions List. SHITLIST "Shit Happens"! SAMPLER The ever notorious Echo Sampler, now reduced in size and including more modern-day HolySmokers' materials. To find the section you need, just look at the "SUBJECT:" line for the above terms. As usual, I have cut these documents into sections less than 6.0 kilobytes long, as prior experience with the FAQ has shown that this slice size -- the old FidoNet limitation -- has the best chance of arriving everywhere, intact, the first time. slack -- s. ÚHeaderÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³The HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List ³ ³Created by David Rice ³±± ³Current Author: Sean McCullough (Editor-in-Chief) ³±± ³ Authors/Editors: Various Heathens in Network 1:128 ³±± ³ ³±± ³ Revised 15 Jan 1996 - Revision 666.025 by Coridon Henshaw ³±± ³ Revised 14 August 1996 -- Revision 6.02 * 1.0E+23 ³±± ³ ³±± ³Compilation copyright 1996, Sean McCullough. Copyright is claimed ³±± ³primarily to protect against unauthorized editing of the quotes of ³±± ³others' material presented herein, pursuant to Moderatorial Rulings ³±± ³regarding the HOLYSMOKE Echo. ³±± ³ ³±± ³Individual quotations remain the property of their respective owners. ³±± ³ ³±± ³ ³±± ³Passage to non-HolySmoke participants: Please remove all mention of ³±± ³ both Coridon and C.J. Henshaw's names from any such copy. You may ³±± ³ leave any mention of Sean McCullough intact, however. ³±± ³ ³±± ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÙ±± ±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±±± ÍDisclaimersÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial location. Do not expose to antimatter. Will not block gunfire. Do not ignite. Do not eat. Definitions of words may vary. Contents may settle during transfer. Slice into sections not exceeding 6 kilobytes long for best results. Í1: IntroductionÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from other echoes in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical. No one in the past four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their brainwashing, but there's always the chance that some god-believing cash-cow will stop denying reality, so we continue to try. Í2: TerminologyÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ atheist One who has no belief in deities. See 3.x for details. Atheist Member of American Athiests, inc. athiest Used by theists to refer to those without morals. agnostic An atheist without guts. fundi Religous fundamentalist. See 3.6 for details. liberal Anyone winning an argument with a creationist. Hir Gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir." Í3: Q&AÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ 3.1 Q: What is HOLYSMOKE? A: HOLYSMOKE is Fidonet's only non-denominational, uncensored religion debate echo. Debates such as fundies vs athists can be conducted here without danger of loosing your feed, like in other areas such as HOLY_BIBLE or any other "christian" echo. 3.2 Q: Why was HOLYSMOKE created? A: The moderator (Styx Allum) originally started the echo as a joke on some local fundies. It took off from there. 3.3 Q: What kind of behavior is alowed here? A: Most anything, including flames. One thing that will get you booted is modification of other people's quotes. If somebody says fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to 'f***' or some other variation, you will be clobbered. Check the rules (posted on an ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for more information. 3.4 Q: Are "flames" allowed? A: Flames are EXPECTED. You will be treated with respect and courtesy if you extend it. The most valuable contributors, who provide references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if you don't like flames, stick to posting what you know or can validate. Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or reading 'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you medium-rare. A: It, seriously, depends on how you look at it. There are times when a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across. Then, the board between the eyes to get your attention works. [Dan Ceppa] .4.1 Q: Will argument from authority get me flamed? A: Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in context and content. Claiming that several bright people support your assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT make it so. Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a biologist on cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- because you will get roasted. Saying "Einstein believed in God (he didn't) therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright people CAN and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well educated in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields. .4.2 Q: Will poor spelling get flamed? A: Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and they're," "Too, to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for "you're." They then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the secrets of God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great Questions humans have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy speller telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't seem likely. If one does not know the difference between "Their" and "they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS for one to be telling us all about how much one knows about god and the universe?! 3.5 Q: Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so full of anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke? A: These phrases are often used as replies to excessively abrasive arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated the religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist resorts to eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the topic at hand. A: You may be missing the point. The people who are ridiculed (as it were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a creator; they are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we MUST ALL bow down before GOD before we all roast in Hell. Then there are those who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their "Book" and attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right. As for myself, I could care less who a person worships, although I usually strongly disagree with their intent. As a secular student of biblical times, I have learned a lot about what Christianity was really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in first-century Judah. Personally, I feel those who take the Bible literally and those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and attempt to understand what was REALLY going on! By far the biggest problem though, are those who insist I should pay to support their religion. Our city supports a separate school system for Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings costs every one of us. There are many examples of religion being pushed on those who do not wish it. We who do NOT wish to have anything to do with religion must suffer through innumerable disturbances from people who insist their religion should be in the forefront. THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in this echo! [John Musselwhite] 3.6 Q: What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies) A: FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj. (pl. Fundies), A member of an American conservative religious movement that believes in biblical inerrancy. This movement had its roots in the nineteenth-century orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) criticism of the Bible that originated among European theologians and was accepted by American "modernists". Fundamentalism owes its name to the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being essential to the Christian faith. Among those fundamentals was the doctrine of biblical inerrancy. Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two varieties; (about more later) but are united by the belief that each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ (at least, their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true. When they find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as the ultimate truth. But when confronted with an apparent contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail away upon the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite significance. Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies exist, (H.n.i. var. ruralensis and H.n.i. var. urbanensis), they can be typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a heavily thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the extraordinarily annoying ability of being able to interject their own personal version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, no matter how abstruse. As a group, they are exasperatingly uni-dimensional. H.n.i. var. ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods rustic living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias who is functionally illiterate. Though some may become transplanted to more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old habits: mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based bleating. A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that it is really a regressive event) is responsible for the other variety: H.n.i. var. urbanensis. They arose from their humbler cousins in the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to exploit the trophism of bright lights, television cameras, teleprompters and wireless communication. Basically, a member of this group can be described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned religious zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other familiar sobriquet. They drape the mantle of Christian piety around their shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the American flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow travelers", "one-worlders", that archenemy of all right thinking people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted bogeymen. With a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of the next, they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to think for themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to "REPENT!" and be born again. Ranting and raving; and spouting smoke, fury, fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace whatever stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a caffeine addiction. The venue may change, but the song always remains the same. Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the ones cited above represent an evolutionary dead-end. In these cases, though, it is more of a U-turn. [Marty Leipzig] A: Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging from the same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their thinking with these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. Among some American Protestants, the movement based on this belief: opposed to _modernism_. [Don Martin] 3.7 Q: "Why is everyone picking on me?" A: Chances are, you deserve it. When someone asserts wild and baseless claims, and then insists that others believe these claims, one may expect a little heat. Some assertions that generate heat: "My book was written by god because it says so, and god wouldn't lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves such-and-such." "I'll pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful atheists." .7.0 Q: "Why is everyone attacking me? I'm only giving you the Good News" A: Look. You don't see it as being offensive, or pushing, or whatever, [to preach at us] but then *you* aren't the one being offended, are you. Think of it in these terms: you are not the one who decides whether or not someone else wants to hear about your religious views. Indeed, the other person may have very well-formed and solid religious views of their own. And your rather rude insistence on discussing your religion and why that other person should start *following* your religion is offensive. Understand? Its not the content of the message which is offensive. Its the assumption that you, as a Christian, have some sort of universal permission to ram that message down our throats that makes us mad at you. [Jack Butler] .7.1 Q: Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for Christ! [Oh, PLEASE drive those nails in harder!] A: Incorrect. Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice or other unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'. If blacks were known to be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, you would not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that they need to be controlled. However, blacks are not rampant killers. Indeed, the only distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as a group, is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for fearing or controlling them. You see? Someone who discriminates against blacks simply because they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely unwarranted. Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and their actions. They discriminate against gays, against people who have sex before marriage, against women, against scientists. All of that discrimination is based on - and please make very careful note of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice to adopt a belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent part. You can't point to God. You can't show that he exists. There is asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even hints at any deity, let alone a specific deity. The only way to adopt the belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice. You choose to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred. Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more accurately the Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather is a sane and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey Bjarnason] 3.8 Q: What is "Crucifixation?" A: A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist Christian brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, drinking blood of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be crucified and martyred hirself. This fixation prevents those afflicted with it to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman fashion, when death by stoning was the preferred method of disposing of sons of Gods. 3.9 Q: What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?" A: This is a reference to the so-called global flood 'theory' presented by biblical literalists. 3.10 Q: What is "One Nation Under God?" A: The state of theocratic opression that fundamentalists desire to impose on the country in which they reside. 3.11 Q: What is a "Creationist?" A: One who believes that the earth was created in six days, exactly as told in the bible. Such people always fail to notice the two different creation accounts contained in Genisis 1:x and 2:x. 3.12 Q: What's this "IHS!" thing? A: This can mean a great many things! It was originally coined by a HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is not clear just who "His" may be. Usual variations may mean "I'm Happy Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat sausage!" "I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. The most common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original meaning is "In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian crucifix as "By this sign we conquer." [OBSOLETE] 3.13 Q: What is a "Not Real True Christian?" A: When atrocities are performed by Christians in the name of God, their partners in religion say they were not Real True Christians. Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All Catholics, Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, Mormons, God Jehovah, John Salvi, Paul Hill, Senator Exon, Timothy Mcvay, David Koresh and the IRA. A: Any Christian who belongs to a 'false christian' sect. For example, Catholics are false christians to Protestants. 3.13.1Q: Now hold on here. You can't responsibly group those obviously psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the true Christians among us. A: Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" with the rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"? You "True Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, against groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize all gays and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP affinity groups; you characterize all pro-choice people from the activities of a few doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; you characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are doctrinaire Leftists. You and your kind demonize your opponents from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their kind, yet expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? [Paul Boyer] .13.2Q: What is a "Real True Christian?" A: The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this minute. .13.3Q: What is a cult? A: Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that you do. A: A religon without political power. 3.14 Q: What does "IS NOT!" mean? A: This is the common reference to Christian foot-stomping arguments. (I.E. It's so because I say it is!) 3.15 Q: What is the "Theory of Creation Science?" A: The exact account of Genisis in the New Testiment. However, biblical passages do not meet the requirements for a scientific theory. See 3.x for more information on scientific theories. A: "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of Creationism, because they do not have one. Therefore it is damn hard to teach it in public school, yet they still demand that it should. 3.16 Q: What are Star Goat and Dopefish? A: These made-up gods are used as a defense against 'prove God doesn't exist' argments made by theists. 3.17 Q: "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me? A: Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free turds on the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE. Now prove she doesn't! When someone brings up the non-measurability of their favorite god (Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah), others bring up Daisy and point out that the evidence she exists is identical to the evidence their god(s) exist. See 3.16 3.18 Q: What's an Athiest? (note spelling and case) A: Christians use this word to represent people without morals; heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; gays; Democrats. .18.1Q: What's an atheist? A: From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ: Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the existence of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God does not exist. The former is often referred to as the "weak atheist" position, and the latter as "strong atheism". It is important to note the difference between these two positions. "Weak atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the existence of God. "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does not exist. Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that all atheists are "strong atheists". Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; others limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the Christian God, rather than making flat-out denials. "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as believing he doesn't exist?" Definitely not. Disbelief in a proposition means that one does not believe it to be true. Not believing that something is true is not equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply have no idea whether it is true or not. .18.2Q: What is an "Agnostic?" A: One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not. 3.19 Q: What is HOLY_BIBLE? A: This echo is run by Steve Winter (no S), who has professed it to be THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding the dozen or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but just clever simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing that the echoes are Christian. 3.20 Q: What is a Sheneism? A: We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will shortly, in a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or proof of a global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that evolution didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the appointed time, later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their proof (I hate it when that happens!). The first time someone made this claim, he blamed it on Satan. The next person this happened to blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and going, eh? 3.21 Q: Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE? A: Creationists refuse to go to the EVOLUTION echo, because there are several more well-informed scientists there than in HOLYSMOKE. As yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected of their errors in HOLYSMOKE. There are several highly knowledgeable people in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims. EVOLUTION is also less-widly carried in the bible-belt than HOLYSMOKE is. 3.22 Q: Are there any Satanists here? A: No. The best estimate of the number of Satanists in the USA is from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by Arthur Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim. 3.23 Q: Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on Christians and Muslims? A: For a couple of reasons. First off, we only "pick on" someone who makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to believe them--we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so. Second, and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting our secular nation through political means, not Satanists (how many Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in prayer?). 3.24 Q: Why do you hate God / Jesus? A: Have you stopped beating your spouse? Do not make the mistake of believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack on a god just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's speaking for his god. In the three years I've read HOLYSMOKE I have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just those who claim to be these gods followers. Many Christians commit crimes in the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we blame the criminals. 3.25 Q: What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF? A: A child preparing to feed a bird. If you have an Internet address, ask Martin Goldberg to send you a copy. 3.26 Q: NOODLES??? A: I know another preacher who, along with his church, prayed that the LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social dinner, not only did they last, not only did several take home a container full of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. Finally, they had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. I have seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for the better, in ways that could only be called a miracle. The LORD russles the leaves if you are willing listen." [Jerry Randall] 3.27 Q: What are the requirements for a someting to be a theory? Is Creationism a theory? A: I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific education at all but I am posting this and the next message in the hope that you may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. All of these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The theory of evolution is used, according to these criteria, to describe the fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these criteria to describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a new theory to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while waiting to see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the fact of gravity. So it is with the fact of evolution. Please read on and discover what a theory is... A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and sociology of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental categories of criteria by which theories are judged: (1) logical criteria (2) empirical criteria (3) sociological criteria (4) historical criteria. There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It must be: (1.a) a simple, unifying idea that postulates nothing unnecessary ("Occam's Razor" [see section 4 -ch]) (1.b) logically consistent internally (1.c) logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must exist in which the theory could be imagined to be invalid) (1.d) clearly limited by explicit stated boundary conditions so that it is clear whether or not any particular data are or are not relevant to the verification or falsification of the theory. The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon reflection. An idea that is too complex or deals with observations piecemeal can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. Theories must make clear patterns of things and relationships between things. These patterns and relationships must be internally logical and consistent since these are required attributes of all sound explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least logically if not by actual experiment, or else tautologies or other logically sterile constructions might be admissible as theories. Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions or else there will be criteria for determining whether or not any particular observation or experiments should or should not be explainable by the theory. In fact, if a theory is totally unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any observation that is irrelevant to verifying the theory. Thus, an unbounded theory would not be falsifiable. And, if a theory cannot be falsified, it cannot be self-corrected. Yet self-correctability is precisely the characteristic that gives scientific theories their epistemological power: a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by attempts to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be corrected or extended. Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as well. A theory must: (2.a) be empirically testable itself or lead to predictions or retrodictions that are testable (2.b) actually make verified predictions and/or retrodictions (2.c) concern reproducible results (2.d) provide criteria for the interpretation of data as facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as irrelevant. The basic point is that not all data are valid for testing any particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as factual (that is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by the theory and verify its predictions or retrodictions); some may be artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental influences lying outside the boundaries set for the validity of the theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid within the bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or retrodictions made by the theory); some are irreproducible and so, invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the theory not at all. Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be relatively self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are logically falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the technology does not exist to convert the logical test into an empirical test). Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and so is useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One can, at best, only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the scientific purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may possibly be observed in the universe. Otherwise, one would not know what to look for, where, how to look for it, under what conditions, or know whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the theory. If everything is possible under an explanation, then no tests for it can exist. A theory must also make verified predictions and retrodictions to validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine theories that make predictions and retrodictions all of which are falsified. A theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, either by the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent discovery of relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is in need of correction or extension. And, of course, a theory based upon irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the very fact that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the boundary conditions governing the collection of the data have not been properly set, or the original data may have been due simply to coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the theory. Sociological criteria also exist for determining the validity of a theory. A theory must: (3.a) resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, and/or anomalies irresolvable on the basis of preexisting scientific theories (3.b) pose a new set of scientific problems upon which scientists may work (3.c) posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving model by which these new problems may be expected to be resolved (3.d) provide definitions of concepts or operations beneficial to the problem-solving abilities of other scientists. Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest. An idea that does not resolve any recognized scientific problems cannot be called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon the research activity of scientists. Similarly, an explanation that does not pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn anything they were unable to learn before. A theory therefore has no sociological value unless it provides a model for new or more efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory must be stated in terms that are operationally useful to the community of scientists who might use the theory. If the definitions or concepts upon which the theory is based are not operationally useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally verifiable about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be scientific. Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well: historical ones. A theory must: (4.a) meet or surpass all of the criteria set by its predecessors or demonstrate that any abandoned criteria are artifactual (4.b) be able to accrue the epistemological status acquired by previous theories through their history of testing or, put another way, be able to explain all of the data gathered under previous relevant theories in terms either of fact or artifact (no anomalies allowed) (4.c) be consistent with all preexisting ancillary theories that already have established scientific validity. These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are correctable. Correctability, in turn, ensures the increase in explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and promotes the consistency and integration of all scientific explanations, without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick and choose data that favor their explanations while ignoring previously recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own ideas. The historical criteria make such unscientific procedures nearly impossible. The historical records of each science stand as a monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass to prove its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. The longer a science has existed, the greater the accumulated knowledge concerning any particular aspect of nature. Consequently, the more difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge into a new and consistent framework. [Robert Root-Bernstein] In short ... if you have a better theory of how the diversity of species came to be as they are on this planet you must fit it into the above (and preceding) framework. While your theory is being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will remain as they now are. The facts that are manifest under the banner of evolution will not go away while your theory is being developed. If you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of evolution that fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you can do so and not before. [Simon Ewins] 3.28 Q: Is there a biological basis for fundamentalism? I mean, people can't be this stupid without extra help. A: You (and others here) may find interesting the article by Rebecca Lee, "The Jerusalem Syndrome" in The Atlantic Monthly (May 1995, pp 24-38). There are LOTS of Messiahs around, and protestants are particularly susceptible. All it takes for many is to visit Jerusalem and experience a religious overload. The authorities find ice middle-class Americans wandering the surrounding hillsides, dressed in bedsheets. David Koresh was one such who recognized his own divinity in 1983 and did not get treatment for it. The treatment is a drug Haloperidol, "a dopamine antagonist; some psychiatrists hypothesize that too much dopamine can cause the mind to be overactive and project to excess, to translate what _is_ into what _might be_--an action of faith. An overabundance of dopamine, then may blur the differences on perceives between oneself and God. Haloperidol blocks some of the dopamine receptors, closes the gates, prevents interplay in the mind between what is seen and what is unseen, discourages the leap of faith. Physicians keep the dosage very low, however, fearing that too much of the drug might wipe out the religious imagination entirely." (p 38, col a) Perhaps we atheists are simply hypodopaminic to the hyper-of the fundies. Better things for better living through chemistry . . . . [Now all you need to do is slip a large amount of Haloperidol into Washington D.C's water supply and you'll have no more fundies in office...] 3.29 Q: What is the Necronomicon? A: [...] The Necronomicon began life as an interesting and eldritch bit of frippery that H. P. Lovecraft invented to liven up some of his stories and add the element of Things Which Man Was Not Meant To Know to them. Abdul Alhazred is likewise a fiction. The only book bearing the name that I have seen in print was written in the late '70s and is a mish-mash of pseudo-Sumerian babble. It is not the "real" Necronomicon, if there ever could be such a thing. It is merely a stupidly written and very funny bit of junk whose main claim to fame is the use of the title. Most people with any sense whatsoever realize that the Necronomicon is indeed a fraud and anyone purporting to have anything like a real copy of it is off his gyros. [Preston Simpson] 3.30 Q: How old is the earth? How do we know? A: The most direct means for calculating the earth's age is a Pb/Pb isochron age, derived from samples of the earth and meteorites. This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead (Pb-206, Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204). A plot is constructed of Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-208/Pb-204. If the solar system formed form a common pool of matter, which was uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then the initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter would fall on a single point. However, amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 will change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay end-products of U (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207). If the source of the solar system was also uniformly distributed with respect to U isotope ratios, then this change will cause the data points to move away from each other, but they will always fall on a single line. And from the slope of the line we can derive the amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter became separated into individual objects. A creationist would object to all of the "assumptions" listed above. However, the test for these assumptions is the plot of the data itself. The actual underlying assumption is that, if those requirements have not been met, there is no reason for the data to plot on a line. The resulting plot for five meteorites that contained uranium, a single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one for modern ocean sediments. It looks like this: Y-axis: ratio of Pb[207]/Pb[204] X-axis: ratio of Pb[206]/Pb[204]. ÚÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ¿ ³ 7 ³ ³ ³ 30 Ã ´ ³ ³ ³ 6 ³ ³ ³ ³ ³ 20 Ã ´ ³ ³ ³ 4 5 ³ ³ 3 ³ ³ 2 ³ 10 Ã 1 ´ ³ ³ ³ ³ ÀÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÄÄÄÄÄÁÄÙ 10 20 30 40 50 Data points: (1) Iron Meteorites; (2) Beardsley; (3) Modern sediments and young galenas; (4) Saratov; (5) Elenovka; (6) Richardton; (7) Nuevo Laredo. I can't really do it justice in ASCII, I recommend interested parties to get the original. (Dalrymple, 1986, Figure 12) The slope of the line in the above chart gives an age of 4.55 ñ 0.07 billion years. Most of the other measurements for the age of the earth rest upon calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects which are less geologically active (such as meteorites). Below is a table of radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites: ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Number Type Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Chondrites 13 Sm-Nd 4.21 +/- 0.76 Carbonaceous chondrites 4 Rb-Sr 4.37 +/- 0.34 Chondrites (undist. H) 38 Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.02 Chondrites (all) 50 Rb-Sr 4.43 +/- 0.04 H Chondrites (undist.) 17 Rb-Sr 4.52 +/- 0.04 H Chondrites 15 Rb-Sr 4.59 +/- 0.06 L Chondrites (rel. und.) 6 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.12 L Chondrites 5 Rb-Sr 4.38 +/- 0.12 LL Chondrites (undist.) 13 Rb-Sr 4.49 +/- 0.02 LL Chondrites 10 Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.06 E Chondrites (undist.) 8 Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.04 E Chondrites 8 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.13 Eucrites (polymict) 23 Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.19 Eucrites 11 Rb-Sr 4.44 +/- 0.30 Eucrites 13 Lu-Hf 4.57 +/- 0.19 Diogenites 5 Rb-Sr 4.45 +/- 0.18 Iron (+ St. Severin) 8 Re-Os 4.57 +/- 0.21 ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 291; duplicate studies on identical meteorite types omitted.) As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on about 4.5 billion years, between hundreds of different meteorites and by several different dating methods. Further, studies on individual meteorites generally give concordant ages by multiple radiometric means. For example: ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Meteorite Dated Method Age (x10^9 yr) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Guarena w-rock Ar-Ar 4.44 +/- 0.06 13 sam Rb-Sr 4.46 +/- 0.08 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Olivenza 18 sam Rb-Sr 4.53 +/- 0.16 w-rock Ar-Ar 4.49 +/- 0.06 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Saint Severin 4 sam Sm-Nd 4.55 +/- 0.33 10 sam Rb-Sr 4.51 +/- 0.15 w-rock Ar-Ar 4.43 +/- 0.04 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Juvinas 5 sam Sm-Nd 4.56 +/- 0.08 5 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.07 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Y-75011 9 sam Rb-Sr 4.50 +/- 0.05 7 sam Sm-Nd 4.52 +/- 0.16 ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍ ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ (After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 286; meteorites dated by only a single means omitted, duplicated methods omitted.) Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly by Rb-Sr dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are in exact agreement with the solar system "model lead age" produced earlier. [Chris Stassen] 3.31 Q: What is evolution? A: "Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene frequencies of populations over the generations in time that produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with modification": a painfully slow process, usually operating over hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of years and generations. Geological and paleontological additions to this definition are noted in the fact that over the span of geological time, organisms have progressed from the simple to the more complex. There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, which should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the general process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise to new species) change, which is considered a well established scientific fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to higher life forms [though now largely discredited], (3.) the particular history of the "Tree of Life" and the origins of various groups, or phylogenies, which are interpreted from the fossil record and biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism of evolution, which Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural selection", but is currently being investigated and modified by scientific research. Punctuated equilibria is an example of the latter. Here following are some of the major arguments and objections that Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers from the perspective of mainstream science: 1. FACT, OR THEORY? Evolution became established as fact because it unified thousands of disparate observations by comparative anatomists, botanists, field naturalists, geologists, paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists. Without the unifying concept of a changing world in process over eons of time, modern science could not and would not exist. That species are related through common ancestry is supported by scores of interlocking research fields, each which supports the rest. Evolution is as well established fact as gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not going to stop falling in midair while scientists debate whether Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing over time, while we continue to search for the why and how of evolution. If one insists that evolution is but one interpretation of nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of dinosaurs and species that preceded them and postdated them were _not_ related to each other, appeared full blown and had no common connections? Such a model, call it "religious" or call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful inquiry. It is rather an answer that stops all further questions. 2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION: While some critics concede that new species (_Drosophilia sp._, for example) have been produced in the lab, they claim general evolution has never been experimentally demonstrated. By this, they mean breeding a succession of progressively "higher" or more complex species. But, there is no such theory of general evolution (i.e., a strawman), the old Victorian notions of "inevitable progress" as opposed to the simple to more complex progress noted in the fossil record, biologically are outmoded and well discarded. 3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS: The time worn and oft-repeated claim that there are no transitional forms is demonstrably false. The Great Karroo region of South Africa is a vast graveyard of mammal-like reptiles, a whole array of species whose anatomy was intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There is the famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth, claws and dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between reptiles and birds. And the African homonid fossils represent creatures with human-like dental patterns, small brains, arms longer than humans but shorter than modern apes, with pelves, feet and legs for upright walking. Transitional fossils are fairly rare because, going by current theory, most species remain stable for long periods. When change does occur, it happens in a relatively rapid (in geological terms) timespan and oftimes occurred in small, isolated populations. The fossil record has been compared to freezing a multileveled parking garage in time. Most cars would be found on the various floors, with very few on the ramps. The amount of time each car spends on the ramp is short when compared to the length of time it remains parked, yet each must have traveled the ramp. Another evidence of transition is found in biogeographic distribution of living species. On Pacific island chains, biologists have tracked populational species across thousands of miles, discovering intermediate forms from one end of the island chain to the other. Among living species, there is a series of intermediate species between lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and thrushes and wrens. 4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF": There is a very common misconception the Darwin thought he had "proved" by logic that species evolved. He was, in fact, a much subtler thinker and philosopher of science. "The change of species cannot be directly proved, and...the doctrine must sink or swim according as it groups and explains [disparate] phenomena. It is unequivocally curious how few people judge it this way, which is the correct way. 5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS: That there are "holes" and unanswered questions in evolutionary theory (just as there are in quantum theory) is incontrovertible, which is normal for healthy science. As noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark forest, would you reject a dim, flickering lantern on the grounds the light it gave was imperfect?" "I think not", mused Huxley, "I think not." 6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST": This hoary old chestnut that evolutionary theory is built on the tautological pretense that "the survivors survive" was laid to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the fittest survive" is an untestable proposition without a uniform definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as an explanation. But whatever the state of those archaic "catch-phrases", such as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from monkeys", the heart of Darwin's theory remains sound: overproduction of offspring in nature, genetic variability and a sorting process, which results in both long-term stability and episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new research is focusing on gaining a deeper understanding of these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential sorting as they occur on various levels within populations of the same organism. 7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE": Some assume that research and inquiry into biology and zoology must lead to the formulation of fixed laws like those of chemistry or physics. Dissecting the anatomical structures of extinct creatures, working out their distribution in evolutionary hyperspace and reconstructing the Earth's past indeed meets and exceeds all the criteria of science; as evidenced by paleontology, geology and biostratigraphy. The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution as a "humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors in understanding and even the loss of human life. For example, Dr. L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda University (Seventh-Day Adventist) "school" of medicine tried to save the life "Baby Fae", an infant born with a severely malformed heart. He surgically implanted a baboon's heart, but the organ was quickly rejected and the child died. He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead use a chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a much better chance of success because of the chimp's closer evolutionary proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that he "didn't believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see what it had to do with the practice of medicine." Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context quoting, and bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's oxymoronically monikered "Institute of Creation Research"; who spend their time at their self-described "God directed ministry" trying to inculcate their own particularly skewed, and narrowly sectarian, version of Biblically mandated (or so they say) morality, into the science curricula of public schools across the nation; and we can see how the unfortunate bastard child of hard-shell religion and fanatical pseudoscience is indeed homeless. Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", other than a prime example of a once popular belief that has been shown to be an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific documents, specious reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-mechanistic processes, it belongs in that dustbin of outdated and useless speculations like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and Geocentrism. Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR crowd try to pawn off as "religiously-ordained". Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an authoritarian philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of supernaturalism trying, in vain, to somewhere find a home. It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is hanging out "No Vacancy" signs whenever they ooze into town. [Marty Leipzig] Í4: Debate TermsÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ 4.1 ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance". This fallacy occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply because it has not been proved false. Or, equivalently, when it is argued that something must be false because it has not been proved true. (Note that this is not the same as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, a basic scientific principle.) Examples: "Of course the Bible is true. Nobody can prove otherwise." "Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist. Nobody has shown any proof that they are real." Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one is generally assumed innocent until proven guilty. Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event would produce certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such evidence can validly be used to infer that the event did not occur. For example: "A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume of water to be present on the earth. The earth does not have a tenth as much water, even if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles. Therefore no such flood occurred." 4.2 ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum. It consists of asserting that the more people who support or believe a proposition, the more likely it is that that proposition is correct. Examples: "The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is. Are you trying to tell them that they are all mistaken fools?" "Eat shit. Ten million flys can't be wrong." 4.3 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad ignorantium, is the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. Short form: Don't attempt to prove a negatives. Unless you're an idiot. 4.4 ACCENTUS Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises from the emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase. 4.5 AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical statement, and the truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the syllogism below, P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent: P implies Q Q is true <-- Affirming the consequent ______________ Therefore: P is true Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true. 4.6 AMBIGUITY Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term is used in different senses. Also known as equivocation. There are several types of "fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, AMPHIBOLY [4.7], COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS [4.4]. 4.7 AMPHIBOLY Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity involved is of an "amphibolous" (equivocal, uncertain) nature. Amphiboly is a syntactic error. The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can result in a meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has pants for men with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have? I have only one!) 4.8 ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good simply because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always been." Example: The Bible is 2000 years old! It must be true! 4.9 ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to cause the acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include threats of fear to cause acceptance. Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god. 4.10 ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of correctness; that those with more money are more likely to be right. 4.11 ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA FLAME) Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of what is asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's argument. Another way of putting it: Fallacy where you attack someone's character instead of dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad hominem arguments: (1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial. 4.12 ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he or she is sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier. This fallacy is the opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam." 4.13 ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of getting a conclusion accepted. 4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely to be true the more often it is heard. An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that employs constant repitition in asserting a truth. Short form: an argument that is repeated so many times that you suffer nausea. 4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct simply because it is new or newer than something else. Or that something is better because it is newer. This type of fallacy is the opposite of the "argumentum ad antiquitam" fallacy. 4.16 ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the multitude (i.e., the "populace"). Another way of putting it: Speaker deals with passions of audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also known as "Appeal to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2) demagoguery, and (3) advertising. 4.17 ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on matters outside his/her field of authority. "Ad verecundiam" also refers to a fallacy of simply resorting to appeals to authority. 4.18 BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING) Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the very conclusion that is supposed to be true. Another way of saying this is: Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you are trying to prove. The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus in Probando." This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII". Example: The Bible is true because god said it was. I know god is real becase the Bible said so. 4.19 BIFURCATION Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, bifurcation is the presentation of a situation or condition with only two alternatives, whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist. 4.20 COMPOSITION Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a property solely because its various parts have that property. Composition is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. 4.21 CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P. Example: Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution supports Hitler. 4.22 CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because they occur simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together they are causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be the cause(s) of the events. This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy. 4.23 DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the consequent from the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its antecedent. P implies Q Not-P ____________ Therefore: Not-Q 4.24 DIVISION Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts have a property solely because the whole has that same property. Division is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. 4.25 EQUIVOCATION Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used in one sense in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the conclusion. Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not determined, and (2) having different meanings equally possible. Equivocation is a type of Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is "unovocation," in which a word always carries the same meaning through a given context. 4.26 FALLACY OF INTERROGATION Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the answerer may wish to deny, but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave anything that would count as an answer. Any answer to the question "Why does such-and-such happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen. 4.28 FALSE ANALOGY Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like features of two things or events on which a comparison can be made. A false analogy involves comparing two things that are NOT similar. Note that the two things may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is being argued. 4.29 SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION) Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a premise without attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the proposition's application. This fallacy is also known as the "hasty generalization." It is a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly unrepresentative, cases to a general rule; generalizing from few to many. Note the relation to statistics: Much of statistics concerns whether or not a sample is representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, the better the representativeness. Note also that the opposite of a hasty generalization is a sweeping generalization. 4.30 IGNORATIO ELENCHI Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition but succeeds only in proving a different one. Ignoratio elenchi stands for "pure and simple irrelevance." 4.31 ILLICIT PROCESS Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed in the conclusion, but not in the premises. One of the rules for a valid categorical syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, then it must be distributed in the premises. There are two types of Illicit Process: Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor Term. 4.32 PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS) Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question. Example: US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no longer started with a prayer. 4.33 NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the falsity of some other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but really is not. 4.34 NON-SEQUITUR Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary consequence of the premises. Another way of putting this is: A conclusion drawn from premises that provide no logical connection to it. 4.35 PETITIO PRINCIPII @MSGID: 1:250/820 00bea09c Description: Same as "Begging the Question" The argument assumes its conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true. Petitio principii has two forms: 1. P is true, because P is true. 2. P is true, because A is true. And A is true because B is true. And B is true because P is true. Similar to circular reasoning. 4.36 POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" to a conclusion of the form "A caused B." Simply because one event precedes another event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of the second event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty Generalization. 4.37 QUATERNIO TERMINORUM Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there occur four or more terms. In a standard categorical syllogism there are only three terms: a subject, a predicate, and a middle term. 4.38 RED HERRING Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to the issue being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away from the points being made, and toward a different conclusion. It is not logically valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points. 4.39 REIFICATION Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept into a concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity. Reification is also sometimes known as a fallacy of "hypostatization". 4.40 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle) Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertion or proposition. Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of "argumentum ad ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies or questions the assertion being made. The source of the fallacy is the assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise. 4.41 SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD) Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double standard is employed by the person making the assertion. Special pleading typically happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the argument he/she is making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's arguments. 4.42 STRAW MAN Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's position for the purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that misrepresented position, and then to conclude that the original position has been demolished. It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments that one has made. Example: Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys. 4.43 SWEEPING GENERALIZATION Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a Sweeping Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a particular situation in which the features of that particular situation render the rule inapplicable. A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty generalization. 4.44 TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE) Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a wrong by applying yet another wrong. Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to consistency. It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal with the subject under discussion. 4.45 UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a categorical syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises. 4.46 ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI Description: This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any crime or ethicly irresponsible act. See "not true christian." [3.13] 4.47 HECTOR'S LAW Description: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without outside intervention. However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that it has debunked itself. [Hector Plasmic never put this in words, so I did.] Í5: Biblical Contradiction ListÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ [From Shelby Sherman, Kelsey Bjarnason, Marilyn Burge, Larry Sites and Simon Ewins] God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26 God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark - Gen 7:2-3 Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Terah's lifespan. According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born) plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran - as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran. So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total. However, Gen 11:32 states he lived 205 years. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in - Gen 17:8 God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27, Ex 1:5 Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13 Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies), Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42 The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Solomon's reign. Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews left Egypt to David beginning his reign as 40 (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years. According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years (of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1 states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476) 94 years. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1 Sam 28:6 Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1 Chron 10:13,14 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron 3:11,12 Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of Jotham - Matt 1:8,9 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2 Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel 6:6 Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron 13:9 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4 David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18 David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1 God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5 Joab's numbering of the army. 800,000 soldiers in Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ISA 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works. JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fa- thers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name. ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MAT 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. LUK 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ MAT 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. MAR 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. JOH 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ JOH 10:30 I [Jesus] and my Father are one. JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In 2 Kings 10:30, God said that at the Jezreel massacre, Jehu had done "according to all that was in my heart". God was so pleased that he promised Jehu's sons to the forth generation to rule Israel (15:12). Yet Hosea opens his book by judging Jeroboam, Jehu's 3rd generation by saying God will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon hin (Hosea 1:4-5). ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ When God brought the people out of Egypt, he instructed Moses in proper sacrifice. (Ex 34:25-26; NU 6:13-17; 7:84-88; 15:1-14) Lev 7:38 confirms God commanded Moses in this. Yet Jeremiah, speaking for God says, "I gave your ancestors no commands about sacrifices when I brought them out of Egypt" (Je 7:21-23). ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ How could the stars sing (Job 38:4-7) at the creation of the earth when Genesis 1 says stars were created after the earth? ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Taken by David II Sam. 8.4: I Chr. 18.4: 1,700 horsemen 1,000 chariots 20,000 foot soldiers 7,000 horsemen 20,000 foot sldrs ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Ammonite mercenaries II Sam. 10.6: I Chr. 19.7: 20,000 + 1,000 + 32,000 chariots + 12,000 men army of king of Maacah ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Slain by David II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 19.18: 700 charioteers + 7,000 charioteers + 40,000 horsemen + 40,000 horsemen ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Census figures II Sam. 24.9: I Chr. 21.5: Israel 800,000 Israel 1,100,000 Judah 500,000 Judah 470,000 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Price of threshing II Sam. 24.24: I Chr. 21.25: floor 50 shekels 600 shekels ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Stalls for chariot I Kings 4.26: II Chr. 9.25: horses 40,000 4,000 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Capacity of the 'sea' I Kings 7.26: II Chr. 4.5: 2,000 baths 3,000 baths ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Is pi equal to 3.0000 as claimed in I Kings 7:23? Two different versions of the words of god in the ten commandments. Who carried Jesus' cross? Who was Jesus paternal grandfather? Is Jesus opposed to divorce or does he allow it? Did Judas hang himself or fall down and "burst asunder"? Acts 9:7 or 22:9? Matthew 27:46,50 or Luke 23:46 or John 19:30? Proverbs 4:7 or Ecclesiastes 1:18 or 1 Corinthians 1:19? Acts 2:30 or Matthew 1:18? Matthew 28:1 or Mark 16:1 or John 20:1? John 10:30 or John 14:28? Genesis 1:25,26 or Genesis 2:18,19? Genesis 7:2 or Genesis 7:8,9? Matthew 5:9 or Matthew 10:34? Matthew 5:39 or Luke 12:51? Matthew 26:52 or Luke 22:36? Luke 6:27 or John 2:15? ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ a) I Kings 6:1 says that 480 years passed from the start of the Exodus to the start of construction on the first temple by Solomon. b) Gal 3:17 says that 430 years passed from the covenant with Abraham to the delivery of the Law to Moses. c) The chapters of Genesis after the flood account give the periods in years that passed between the births of various individuals from Noah to Abraham, giving a period of 390 years from the flood to the covenant with Abraham. Thus, according to the Bible, the Flood took place 1300 years before Solomon began construction of the first temple. Now ... a) The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 BCE by similar analysis in the other direction, placing the flood around 2250 BCE. b) The Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well back before 2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid was built just prior to the 26th century BCE), 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood. c) There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global flood around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice it?) ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ In Luke 22:41 we have Jesus and the disciples in the garden and Jesus moves away from them to pray. We then get some details about the praying and how he sweated blood in his 'agony' from v42 to v44. In v45 Jesus returns to the disciples and finds that they are all sleeping. My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them know what Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he sweated blood? In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In Mark, we find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what Jesus said in his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the time. In Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was awake to witness. Furthermore, in reading these three passages one gets the distinct feeling that Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled by the prospect of being sacrificed for the sins of mankind. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Gen. 1:12 --- grass and herb created Gen. 1:21 --- fish and fowl created Gen. 1:25 --- beasts, cattle and creeping things created Gen. 1:27 --- man created Now... Gen. 2:18 --- it is noted that God did not want the man to be alone Gen. 2:19 --- so... beasts and fowl created Note that in Gen. 1:25 beast are created _followed_ by v26 which says that god wanted to create man and in v27 he does. In 2:18 the reason given for creating the beasts etc is that god didn't want man to be alone so he created beasts. How can anyone possibly claim that this is not a blatant contradiction without giving up any appearance that they may be sane? ** To recap... In Gen. 2 the _reason_ that beasts are created is because man should not be alone. This can only mean that man existed prior to the creation of the beasts. In Gen. 1 the _reason_ that man was created was because he was to have dominion over the beasts. This can only mean that the beasts already existed. Note the use of the word 'so' in Gen. 1:27 and the word 'will' in Gen. 2:18. These _have_ to mean that the chronology is as stated. There is no need to believe anything ahead of time. The language used and the statements made make it abundantly clear that the order is different. If anyone denies this then we can only have serious concerns for their mental health. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ If there is any area that one would suppose would be cohesive and accurate it should be in the area of the genealogy of Jesus, David and Adam. However, even an area of such importance is contradictory and replete with obvious, glaring errors. (*) Definite disparity. Note first is as early as Jesus' grandfather. (?) Most likely simply a spelling error. (!) Out of sync similarity. (1) Common to both but out of sync. (2) Common to both but out of sync. (3) Back in sync. (4) End of last common sync. (5) Start in sync to Adam. Matthew Luke I.Chronicles ------------ ------------ ------------ Jesus Jesus Joseph Joseph *Jacob *Heli Matthan ?Matthat Eleazar ?Levi Eliud Melchi Achim Janna Sadoc Joseph Azor Mattathias !Eliakim Amos Abiud Naum Esli Nagge Maath Mattathias Semei Joseph Juda Joanna Rhesa 1Zorobabel 1Zorobabel 2Salathiel 2Salathiel Jechonias Neri Josias Melchi Amon Addi Manasses Cosam Ezekias Elmodam Achaz Er Joatham ?Jose Ozias ?Eliezer Joram ?Jorim Matthat Levi Simeon Juda Josaphat ?Joseph Asa Jonan Abia !Eliakim Roboam Melea Menan Mattatha *Solomon *Nathan 3David 3David 3David (2:15) Jesse Jesse Jesse Obed Obed Obed Booz Booz ?Boaz Salmon Salmon ?Salma Naasson ?Naasson ?Nahshon Aminadab Aminadab ?Amminadab Aram Aram ?Ram Esrom Esrom ?Hezron Phares Phares ?Pharez Judas ?Juda ?Judah *Jacob *Jacob *Israel (2:1) Isaac Isaac Isaac 4Abraham 4Abraham Abraham (1:34) Thara ?Terah (1:26) Nachor ?Nahor Saruch ?Serug Ragau ?Reu Phalec ?Peleg Heber ?Eber Sala 4?Shelah *Cainan Arphaxad 5Arphaxad Sem ?Shem Noe ?Noah Lamech Lamech Mathusala ?Methuselah Enoch ?Henoch Jared ?Jered Maleleel ?Mahalaleel Cainan ?Kenan Enos ?Enosh Seth ?Sheth Adam Adam There is a 15 generation difference between Matthew and Luke. Matthew has Jesus descended from David through Solomon and Luke has it through Nathan. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12 Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40 The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9 God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ God forbids killing - Ex 20:13 God commands killing - Ex 32:27 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13 Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50 Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7 The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15 The misery of wisdom - Ecc 1:18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ According to Luke 2:21-39, Jesus is taken to the Jerusalem Temple eight days after he is born; the family then go up to Nazareth. In Matthew 2:14-23, after being born the family flee in Egypt and stay there until Herod dies; even on returning, they avoid Judea and go up to Nazareth. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesus began his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - Mark 1:14,15,17. Jesus began his ministry while John was free and before being imprisoned - John 1:28-29, 3:25-30 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Jesus baptised - John 3:22 Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13 Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke 22:34, John 12:38 Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice - Mark 14:30, 14:72 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32 Jesus carries his own cross - John 19:17,18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Abraham was justified by faith - Rom 4:1-5 Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7 Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18 ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Acts 9:7 states that the men with Paul stood speechless, hearing the voice but not seeing anyone. Acts 22:9 states they did not hear the voice. Acts 26:14 states they all fell to the ground and did hear the voice. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 27:5 states that Judas went out and hanged himself. Acts 1:16-18 it states that Judas "...purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out." ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 1:16 And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ. Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 27:46,50 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, eli, lama sabachthani?" that is to say, "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" ...Jesus, when he cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost. Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, "Father,unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, "It is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Proverbs 4:7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding. Ecclesiastes 1:18 For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow. 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Acts 2:30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; Matthew 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost. Romans 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David, according to the flesh. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Matthew 28:1 In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre. Mark 16:1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. John 20:1 The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ John 10:30 I and my Father are one. John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Genesis 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. Genesis 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. Genesis 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ Genesis 7:2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Genesis 7:8 Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, Genesis 7:9 There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. ÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄÄ ** This argument logically flawed, in fact neither statement contains enough information to determine whether men or beasts were created first. In principle, it is only required that God had knowledge of man's creation when he created the beasts, and vise-versa, in order for both statements to be true. More specifically, God may have created the beasts to provide company for the men that he knew he would create in the future, or, he may have created man to have dominion over his future creations. If I were to make the statement: "Spacesuits were created so that men could fly in rockets." Would you be able to deduce whether the spacesuit or the rocket was created first? What if I were to say: "Rockets were created to carry men in spacesuits into space." What conclusion would you reach in this case? Whether or not the whole story contains even a grain of truth is another matter. [Bill Fontes] Í7: Echo Sampler (Quotes)ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "In other words, you're full of shit, you *know* you're full of shit, you know that *we* know you're full of shit, and you simply don't have the backbone to come out of the full-of-shit closet." - David Worrell "Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke! Watch out! The sugar-coating you now wear will probably wear off before long. It doesn't take very long, here. We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor Thews "We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be disgusted by it." - Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd "Wrong! I'm the fucking antichrist. Bow down slave!" - Ryan Shaw "If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be afraid to experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac "YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!! I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, THEY CHOOSE TO BE GAY. AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS THEM!" - JA "It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day soon every knee will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" - Hampie Mcdonald "A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum community infected the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook "Key words: "we want". Instead of making demands, why not try working to those ends? Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig "Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell." - ML "Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both eyes open, I just consider the source." - ML "I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. The mere fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other than label you with the type of superstition with which you feel most comfortable." - ML "Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come across as such a blightered moron. Perhaps." - ML "Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in that paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and school administrators are there to protect the populace from the Neofascist, hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of Fundamentalist liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of narrowly dogmatic, and hallucinatory, morality as science. Against that we must be ever vigilant. We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad in their tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what they can never attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or swindle." - ML "My name is Marty, and I too, like our illustrious author of the missive immediately above, am an unrepentant fundy basher. Just as some people feel compelled to rubberneck terrible traffic accidents, purchase police scanners to vicariously hear of other's misfortunes or stomp some clod's foot protruding into the aisle in a particularly crowded airline flight; I am possessed by the unrelenting desire, nay, compulsion, to help certain people who are consumed by the passion to make idiots of themselves, either personally or in international electronic fora. When some "person" proudly proclaims that "man evolved from apes"; I see this as nothing more than a plaintive cry for self-immolation. When they claim that there's "boats in dem dere hills"; again, the pitiful cry of a person desperate to be martyred, but without the genetic or intellectual horsepower to carry it out themselves. When they spew plaintive Bible verses to document everything from their own particularly skewed, and oftimes hallucinatory, view of morality to make an attempt at justification of atrocities, injustices and just plain antisociality; they are merely whining, in their own bizarre and stridulatory manner, for someone to come along and humiliate them with a blizzard of fact, logic and reason. And yet some would go so far to condemn my actions. I see it as preforming a service to these benighted individuals; a sort of an electronic version of Dr. Kevorkian." - ML "And you are still short one live Jesus dumbass. What part of that don't you understand?" - George "the Rude One" Rudzinski "Fundies are dazed and confused. Like a duck hit on the head." - GR "So me blowing your head off is okay? I'm beginning to see that such a wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR "Mark 16: 15-19. If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR "I advocate the murder of no one. However, I _do_ advocate referring to an abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led monster, masquerading as a doctor of medicine. Reason: He is one." - "Lon S. Mabon" "Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born again) they become a new person in Christ. New means you start from the beginning. As in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp. "Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't shine. It is a farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, if only you were adult enough to know it." - Marilyn Burge "The fundies that come through here start out by trying to display an attitude of thoughtful discussion. When they find that their mythologies are systematically disassembled and found to _be_ myths, coupled with the friction specifically designed to remove their sugar coating, the actual Christian under said sugar coating is exposed. And you can guess what's under it. I couldn't begin to enumerate those who specifically stated that they wished they could be around to watch the hurtful, educated HolySmoke participants `burn in 'hell.'" - Fredric Rice "'I am saved.' From what? Having to think for yourself?" - FR "Are you just naked, or are you naked for Jesus?" -FR "It's rather like having Freedie Kruger babysit children. Or asking Pee Wee Herman to teach human sexuality. Or asking Jim Bakker to be treasurer of the United States. Or asking Jim Jones to look over the refreshments." - FR "To believe in something without reason, that is to say, without reasonable grounds, is superstition, whether it is a belief that a black cat crossing your path will bring you bad luck, or God may pass judgement over your soul and send you to Hell for your evils." -Michael Gothreau "FUCK YOU ATHEIST! WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG! THE GOD OF ABRAHAM DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING. SO GET YOUR HEAD OUT OF YOUR ATHEIST ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS, AND WAKE UP. WHEN YOU DIE, YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN THERE. AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, WHEN I'M UP IN HEAVEN. THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN. AND THAT IS WHERE YOU ARE HEADED! OH I SEE. ALABAMA? YOU BETTER WATCH OUT. EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST. I GUESS THAT'S ANOTHER REASON WHY YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL! THE TERMINAL BBS? OH, I UNDERSTAND. YOU ARE TERMANILLY RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE PRODUCT OF INCEST! HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER BOY." - Christopher Calabrese [Christian family values] "Debunking religions based upon hot air... is why this echo exists. Exposing hot air, although it cannot be seen by the naked eye, is a simple matter of having a theist speak into a balloon. When you pop the balloon, there is no more substance than what was there before. (Other than perhaps some saliva. Some theists froth more than others.)" - Styx Allum "Omnipresence precludes any "separation from the body of Christ". One cannot escape omnipresence. Therefor, your god would also have to exist within Satan." - SA "My clue, is Christ is coming, soon. Where are you going to be, when he comes to take the believers, in Heaven or hell." - Marguerite Kendall "If I was a satanist, humanist, or an atheist, it would be no problem. But because I stand for Christ, I get jumped on, name called, etc. There have been posts, on satanism, and humanism. But nothing happens, to the person who posts those messages. That person gets praise heaped upon him. But when I posted something on christianisty, adverse reaction happen." - MK "Faith in yourself will not help when the problem is beyond your control." - Steve Bedard "This ain't the harmony echo, dipshit." - Robert Curry "If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless." - RC "Funny how the gods tend to share the Political views of those who speak for them." - RC "Creation 'Science' is to science what Rap 'Music' is to music: a lot of noise and utterly incoherent." - David Rice "It is like arguing with a lump of shit. The longer one argues with shit, the sillier one appears, and the shit ain't listening." - DR "In response to entreaties from around the world, the leadership of Iran has announced that it will deal with Salman Rushdie in a more Christian fashion. But they have to find a place for the stake where it won't set an oil well on fire." - DR (It's a JOKE, bozo) "You're one complete pile of shit, and a bigoted one, too. Even your god damnable bible says "created man in his own image". And you have the audacity to say that an innocent child does not have the right to be saved by your god damned god?" - Dan Ceppa "Your English teachers only use a 23-letter alphabet? I've heard of cutbacks in education, but that's rediculous!" - DC "I predict that you will take a breath of fresh air and actually take another. Hey!!! Why the fuck are you turning blue on me???? Well, one less fundy to worry about......" - DC "Mankind didn't progress as far as it has by saying, "God said that men can't fly" but by breaking those laws and flying. What is going on around us now is an attempt to do just the same thing that the Romans used xianity for: To keep people ignorant, ignorant as to who they really are and are far they can go." - DC "You're incapable of any rational response, so why start now?" - DC "Please don't apologize. It makes me want to taunt you a second time." - Shelby Sherman "We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in this forum - Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS "By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is long dead and rotted in the grave. I've profaned your Savior, now what do you intend to do about it?" - SS "Damn, I asked for evidence and all I got was this lousy Josh McDowell T-shirt." - SS "Tell me, why does God need to prove himself? He is based on belief. You are to believe, not to question! God performs miracles every day." - Steve Lew "This echo is abomination. This echo is also filled with those who will one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, whether they like it or not! And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun watching you say it." - Martin Riley "Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong... Mark 9:1, Matthew 16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, Matthew 10:23... all claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. Gee, maybe he's dead." - Simon Ewins "To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after Paul's letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about Jesus, is to accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler. To accept as truth what Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of Acts says about Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as supported by what Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE "Christianity has nothing to be proud of. Any good that it may have done has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and religious hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE "Paul only quotes Jesus twice. Why would that be if he is basing his entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of Jesus?" - SE "God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson "I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones "When we believe that our individual will is the superior force in the cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks. Jesus's struggle in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served beyond our own self-interests. . ." - JJ "My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, reprobate brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all ganging up on me." - Steve Winter "Aids cures queers." - SW "I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone "Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals? Cockroaches are male and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to your congregation." - Don Martin "Have you any notion how very boring your constant mantra of "C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton" gets to be after a while? Nobody denies that there have been and continue to be brilliant people who believe in religions. Their impact, however, on our daily lives is a great deal less than the folks with 12-guage shotguns who may appear at any moment to "justly punish" a baby killer (and anyone standing in the vicinity) for Christ, the Jim Bakkers who suck the money from the poor, the Pat Robertsons who seek to change the laws and other believing riff-raff who otherwise share precious little with the likes of C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton, et al." - DM "Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian "trying to make a difference"? Who ignores the various "Family" groups in Colorado and Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human race? They are certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the Christians in Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do not return them? Who can deny that they are "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly Christians, who seek to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in the U.S. Senate where he can work his magic on all of us? Are they not "trying to make a difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in California, who work at getting elected to school boards by concealing their Christian agenda by evasion, silence or outright lying, so that they can impose that agenda on the young from a position of power. They, too, are "trying to make a difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the Christians "trying to make a difference," but we dare not turn our backs on the vile bastards." - DM "Well for all of you who criticize Mr. Robertson, I can say this. Judge yourself before judging others. You might make fun of us fundies now, but we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what worries you the most financially. We Christians are sick and tired of being accused of wrongdoing and ridiculed. Lets face it, there are more of us than you. And we intend to take back the Government that Christians founded. And cut off your grants that supply some of you with the money to wage war on us. Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare you and thats good cause We are going to put you and the evolutionist garbage you try to push on us on the run." - Joe Savelli "Okay. I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested for praying in the Florida restaurant. But only because you and others are hung up on it. This should clear the way for what I really want to prove. That is the Historicity of Jesus. So, Robert, you have my retraction for what it's worth. (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS "Libralism and humanism IS evil. Both are destined to fail" -JS "I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil. Beware! The Jew is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / Gerald Norris / Jack Roberts / Frank Waring "If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per Jewish tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)? I wonder- and I hope he lands feet first on ALL televangelists. (Preying on fear sickens me!!!)" - Rachael Roth "Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it in gasoline, then shove it up your ass and light it. Have a nice day, motherfucker." - C. J. Henshaw "What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun past time for those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' assholes." - Coridon Henshaw "Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" - Liz Saunders "EH> [...] Btw, change your initials. they make you look canadian." - Martin Goldberg "Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead Elvis. Jesus, the smell is atrocious. Did something die up there?" - MG "The Theory of Gravity does not address these either. Am I to believe that my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG "i read this. It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, and a host of other devices that might fool a very stupid person. It is not, however, evidence." - MG "See you in Hell.... (I won't be there, but I'll be able to see YOU there.)" - Doug Brewer "Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single women who obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens? 1) A tremendous amount of tax money is freed up. 2) Men fill the now vacant positions, thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 3) Children have one parent home all the time; thus they are raised by their parents instead of daycare. I think the advantages of this are obvious. In contrast, look at what we have instead...." - DB "You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism. You do not have to worship Satan to be a Satanist. Satanists believe that everyone is their own God. You need only worship yourself, and you are practicing Satanism." -DB "First of all, innocence is subjective. Who is truly innocent? Just a question... Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in the Bible) died for a reason. Third, Christians view death as a beginning, not an end. So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's judgement) wouldn't pose that big a problem for me. There isn't that much worth hanging around here for, anyway." -DB "Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens is not all irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our most earnest efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson "Perhaps if you actually bothered to read literature rather than burn it, you would have seen them." - PS "Christian [Miller], you are the LAST person who needs to be giving me advice on how I should go about living with myself. You are a disgrace to your god, your religion, your species, your family, and yourself. I find you to be a repugnant and worthless human being--and I write all of this with not a single trace of anger." - PS "There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has been bricked over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS "Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures in your religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage it. Such is a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." - PS "I think you're full of shit. I wasn't in it for gain. I was in it because I believed. I was in it because I had faith. And when my faith was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody answered my prayers, nothing. Your God, if he exists, is the most callous deity to ever be worshipped, bar none. And his followers exemplify this beautifully." - PS "Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green "I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions cause you so much grief." - SG "The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their brains fall out. Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the opening, at which time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse has run off, and never let anything else in or out. Then they come to Holysmoke and start posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot waves and dead presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying sunlight and quoting winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic" "He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants it to say, carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as "parables" and then reinterpreting them, too. Finally, ignore any more logical explanations and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add flood water and bake in hell to taste." - HP "It's laughable, really. The fundies claim "gods exist!" When you ask them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they eventually get around to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist." When you ask them for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just know it." And when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually get "you can _sense_ that gods exist."" - HP "I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that xtianity is true? Would you mind sharing it with us? Or are you just full of shit as usual?" - HP "Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP "Now go shoot yourself. For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. Don't forget to repent first." -HP "What an assinine, baseless assertion. Just because Mikey has no evidence, you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." -HP "Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP "Fundy motto: no sense makes sense." -HP "Yep. I agree. All bibles should be put under rocks. Big rocks. In the ocean. On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy "Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." - Jeff Pruett "Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff? The entire story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit. It has no more validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras." - John Musselwhite "So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta our hair?" - David Worrell "*Anybody* [Bosnian Serbs] that makes a habit of shelling civilian population centers at random is *not* interested in peace. The only way to make them stop is to wipe them from the face of the Earth." - DW "At the very least, we should sell (or "loan") the Bosnians [Muslims/Croats] good counter-battery radar and some MLRSes. Everytime the Serbs fired anything bigger than a rocket-launched grenade, their position would be enveloped by thousands of bomblets. After a while, they'd loose their fascination with artillery." - DW "So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to prevent `experimentation'? You disgust me. Maybe we should beat the hell out of Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with Christianity?" - DW "Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to you?" - DW "I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to legislate agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - Robert Rice "God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one chance against My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life Non-Christians!!" - Jason Bridges "The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and Earth's magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have been many, many times stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks "You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to live with it (your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, hellbound schnook)" - John Prewett "May Jesus continue to let you live. Long enough to get your head out of your ass." -JP "This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in Christ. There are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are going to be transformed into rabid Christers. - JP "I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will publicly reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact the "beast" of the Revelation." - JP "I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of fundamentalists" - Unknown "Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's my aura of wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline. Really it is." - Aaron Boyden "No. However, there is life before death. It probably deserves more of your attention than you've been giving it." -AB "Show me exactly which Israelis were brought to Israel by God, as opposed to the local airlines. Next." - Kelsey Bjarnasson "If you believe it, you don't know it. If you know it, you don't need to believe it. Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or the other, why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB "As another opined, isn't it odd that miracles no longer happen now that we have the technology to record them?" - KB "Okay, fine. But how much of it is "God's truth", and how much is mere fairy tale or absolute bulltwaddle? Was there really a global flood? No? Then is the Bible is lying to us, or is God? Oh, there was a global flood? Then the lack of supporting evidence means that God is lying to us, by intentionally destroying or hiding that evidence, right? Hello?" - KB "No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are plenty (too many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping this planet (over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of the world's population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any more people breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber "Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was praying that his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK flew out of the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and arrested him. MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and tried to prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen mentioned in Luke 16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased the Culinary History of Aviation. He goes on trial December 1." - Jason Rosendale "What your missing David, is the most bible believing Christains do not question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of sin? What does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." -- Kenneth McAbee "Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not mean that I am here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM "Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement that God is an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the choice to make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and go to hell. With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most hateful thing ever created, I still would not want to go to hell, and I would still believe in him." - KM "She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for the life of this little one back. After 15 minutes or so a crowd was gathered (you can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of her eye starting to approach. But the people pressed around her so, that the police couldn't get through. After a half hour or more of continuing to pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter Sawyer "I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any rights and i never will." - Don Ward "I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an _assistant moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all types of people. Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me run this bias _echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a respectable "echo", for the good of all." - DW "Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals? "Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and recieving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 You don't have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is it only the Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because they have the mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47 (Alan Kern) "And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, you'll find that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and social outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter heaven. But then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you don't notice these things." - Quentin Fai "I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone who's been soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to notice, though." - QF "When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there will be no need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives whatsoever. Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments and othersuch will be out of place as well. For we who are his children will live under the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and he will be our God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't be around anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do not speak here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper "Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my pitchfork." - Satan "The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline "I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to particularly lack respect for men and thereby depart from God even further than do pagan men." - Jim Staal "Do you now know why we don't eat pork. Its what distinguishes us from people like you. The flesh contains microbes that invades your brain cells and couses such twisting of the mind as one can see from the language used above. This is how the mind reacts to such desieses. Some people get infected and some don't. I think David Rice and Sean McCullough are effected with the desiese too." - Shabeir Khan "now, I wash my hands of you since I have no further need nor desire to read the lying babblings of a twisted little fuckhead." - Karl Schneider "This seems to be a funny debate for a Religous Conference. Do y'all need prayin' for? Perhaps you need a demon cast out? Hmm?" - Clayton Davis "As for why you would fear homosexuals, here are some common reasons. 1. One is afraid of the prospect of enduring a sexual overture of a nature one finds repellent. 2. One is afraid that homosexuality is a plot to destroy all decency and "family values". 3. One is afraid that ones offspring might choose to go that way if given the option. 4. One is afraid that oneself might choose to go that way if given the option. 5. One is afraid that giant flaming meteors might descend on one's head because of the behavior of one's neighbours. 6. One is afraid that everyone might choose to abandon reproduction, leading to the extinction of the human race. 7. One is afraid that people won't be willing choose one's virgin daughters over oneself when they feel like gang-raping somebody."- David Johnston "For the last time: Omnipotence does not include the ability to do the logically impossible." - Michael Hardly "I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess YOU are now in." - Joanna Amren "Clearly, anything that "demonstrably disagrees with reality" cannot be from God, and therefore should be discarded." - Rick Mcfarlane "In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo NOW." - Steve Wallis "You're a druid, and think trees are alive?" - Christian Miller "That would be due to your own ignorance and bigotry, and would certainly not be their fault. OTOH, if I thought it would make you barf, slip, and fall off a ninety foot cliff, I'd kiss John Prewitt right on the lips and retrieve his tonsils with my tongue." - David Hilling to Christian Miller 7.5 Multi-quotesÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Please show me ONE instance of a scientist especially one that specializes in the mechanisms of evolution that claims that evolution states that man descended from monkies." - Martin Goldberg "Maybe Creationists are descended from the same branch that produced monkeys rather than the one that produced the apes. After all, they do have a tale!" - John Musslewhite ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "She doesn't behave like a homosexual male. She behave like a WOMAN. The homosexual male behaves like a woman; not the other way around. Besides, she's anotomically correct for acting like a woman." - Christian Miller "So a=b but b<>a? You're so fucking stupid you don't even realize you're stupid." - Karl Schneider ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "If matter doesn't exist, what kills you at the bottom?" - Unknown "If it is not matter, then most likely it is mind" - Lee Woofenden "ROFL! Lee, what's your brain made of? Matter, perhaps? :-)" - "Hector Plasmic" "I see that Lee's at it again...." - Dan Ceppa "And before you start telling us the mind doesn't come from the brain, would you care to remove your brain _before_ telling us? Should be no problem if your mind is _not_ your brain, after all. Just another little test that you, too, can perform in your own home town." - HP "That must be Hector's Experiment, part II, for those that are stupid enough to perform part one and perhaps actually survive the first experiment." - DC ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Did you forget that the world is round and that I am both east and west of you at this very moment?" - Ryan Shaw "No I didn't - did you forget that the end of straight lines never meet? Sort of a small rule of geometry.... For a further examination" - Glen Buckley ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I have faith. That's all I need." - Christian Miller "If faith was all you needed for anything, then you could live in Antarctica sans clothing or food. Do so." - Preston Simpson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "But Hitler did NOT decide to be a Christian. He was a Roman Catholic Jew. One cannot be a Christian and a Roman Catholic. You have just eliminated faith. Hitler made the wrong decision. (Several in fact)." - Anthony Grigor-Scott "Remember, it's spelled "Anthony Grigor-Scott". There's a hyphen between the last two names; the space, as you may know, is between his ears." - Robert Jackson ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "God sends no one to Hell." - Christian Miller "I refuse to go to hell. What's going to happen to me?" - David Worrell "What do I care? How will you stop God the Father from sending you there? I can see it now: A little five year old brat not wanting to go to school, fighting his 6ft Dad. Yeah, you'll stop God." - CM ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "You fucking moron." - Michael "Mikey Hardly" Hardy "Sugar coating scrape off on the wrong side of the bed this morning, Mikey? :-)" - "Hector Plasmic" ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Damn - what bore does one use when hunting gods? I've seen .700 elephant guns, so I can only assume that a god gun must be something on the order of a 16 inch deck gun." - David Worrell "Naww, use a pellet gun. Gives the god a sporting chance, though still not much of one..." - Dan Ceppa (elipses in original) "Since we've never actually *seen* a God, we must extrapolate the characteristics of these gods from the evidence available to us. The Christians tell us that they want to be like God, but that God is much more powerful than they can ever hope to be. Christians are boneheads. Thus, gods must have an *incredibly* thick skull, necessitating the powerful ordnance referred to above." - David Worrell ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Get thee behind me Satan." - Jerry Wilcox "Bend over." - Satan "Get thee behind me Satan." - JW "Getting just a little bit anxious, aren't we?" - Satan "Not at all. Remember, I have Jesus on my side and I fear nothing." - JW "One sidesaddle and one behind! The man is a walking clusterfuck!" - Don Martin "Wow! What Jesus should do is get in FRONT ... then they can make a little train - Jesus, then Jerry, then Satan, all linked. Perhaps they could add in their god and the archangel Michael, too, one at either end." - Sue Armstrong ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I want to know why that murdering SOB that you worship starves innocents to death." - Martin Goldberg "Because these so called innocents do not believe in God, or, know about God in any way." - Jerry Wilcox ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I take it you've never heard of having your penis pierced, then?" - David Worrell "Hell! I was three blocks away and I heard it." - J.J. Hitt ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "I've *never* seen a camel at a salad bar." - David Roosterman "Count yourself among the lucky. They've got terrible table manners. (Lousy conversationalists, too.)" - J.J. Hitt "So, J.j., what's the difference between them and fundys?" - Dan Ceppa "If you ask a camel a question it doesn't understand, it will at least say something original like "ahrrrrooooghunnn" or "yhaaaarrwwwaaarrrrkh" (which very well mean something in Arabic). Our modemvangelists will reply with John 3:16." - JJH ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Well, I guess we have a fundamentally different outlook...it strikes me that a belief in ANY kind of "god", some powerful, "magic", creator being, is more reasonable than matter spontaneously coming into existence out of nothing..." - Mickey Haist Sr. "Nope; they're absolutely identical, as long as you're limiting them to origins. "Where did matter come from?" "Oh, it just went *poof*" "Yeah, right." "Okay, where do you say it came from?" "God did it." "Oh, and where did God come from?" "Ummm... he just... um... went *poof*." "Uh huh." (The other alternative is to simply insist, with no logical basis, that God "jest is". Fine. Apply the same to the universe. Guess what? Identical claims. In any case, the result is the same: since we can at least tell the universe exists, adding deities doesn't amount to diddly.) Now, as soon as you add in the extra attributes of God, it moves from being equally ludicrous to far more so." - Kelsey Bjarnason ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Parable of the New Soap. Once upon a time in a far-away land far, far away, a young man named Joshua announced the discovery of a marvelous new kind of soap. People were skeptical at first, but they soon found that this new soap made everyone very happy because it got them so clean. Because it was so powerful, it got rid of dirt and stains that had been around for years. In our parable, Joshua's soap is the Gospel of Jesus Christ." - Marguerite G. Kendall "It can't be; they're not comparable. In the one case, there is a demonstrable positive effect of using the product [soap] - one gets clean and happy. In the other case, [Jesus] there is a demonstrable *negative* *effect - one's brain goes to mush, and if seriously infected, one has a tendency to try to control society or kill people." - Kelsey Bjarnason ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ "Democracy is impossible in the presence of even ONE Jesus worshipper!" - Sean McCullough [anarchist] "What the HELL is the matter with you? Your starting to become justlike the christians are! Judgeing everybody else.Dammit you've really pissed me off.It's okay to take shots at their religion, but it's another thing to make character assesments and pass judgements on MILLIONS of people you've never met. [...] I'm disgusted with you." - Luke Clark [Pagan] ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ 7.75 A few short skits.ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ THE TALE OF ASMODEUS' CURSE Courtesy of Rick McFarlane, EdWeird Mills, J.J. Hitt, Al Schroeder, etc. etc. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ QUOTH HERR MC FARLANE: ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Good morning, Edweird. EM> Ever' now-n-then, I see mention of some mythical poster named EM> Asmodiddly-something-or-other. Asmodeus. Also known by many unsolicited and uncomplimentary nick-names. EM> Having linked up too late, EM> evidently, to enjoy the good works of this chap, I'd be deeply EM> beholden to anyone who might have a few tidbits archived, that I EM> might know what's being talked about when the name comes up... A real True Satanist (tm). Not one of those kids that is just into weird stuff and calls himself a Satanist - you know, the ones who give Satanism a bad name - no, not one of them. A real True Satanist. J.J. called him a white punk on drugs (nasty J.J.). He appeared to be offended and said many evil words intended to impress All. J.J. was unimpressed. As was All. Asmodeus cursed J.J. Nothing happened. J.J. taunted him (nasty J.J.). Asmodeus said he was just kidding before - playing mind games with J.J. - but now J.J.'s taunting had made him mad, so he gave J.J. a For Real True Satanic Curse (tm), invoking many Evil Spirits (whom he knew on a first name basis). Nothing happened again. Repeatedly. Over and over again, nothing happened to J.J (who posted a note to All every time nothing happened to hir - this part got a bit boring). Apparently the Evil Spirits were playing mind games with Asmodeus (nasty Evil Spirits). Other people began begging Asmodeus for their very own curse. Everyone seemed to want one. They were much in demand. But only J.J. was so blessed. Everyone else was jealous. Then Al's dryer blew up. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DAVE HAMILTON AS A FRANCOPHONE: (with Dr. Mratin Gledbrog) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ MG> A few years ago, my wife and I were in Lucerne, Switzerland. We went MG> intot his restaurant and with my best fumbling Hoch Deutsche I asked MG> for a menu. Felt pretty proud of myself too. Once in northern Quebec I found myself in a restaurant where I knew more French than either waitress knew English. I managed to provide the day's entertainment by ordering an electric stove for dinner. They didn't even have a chance to be hostile with those tears running down their cheeks. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ KAREN DAVIS ON OMNIPOTENCE: (with Kenneth McAbee) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ KM> No, not punished for my actions, but burn in the lake of fire forever KM> because they never accepted Christ and therefore did not accept his KM> payment for their actions. But they would not be punished because of KM> my actions. KD> Why is it that pretending to die is payment for anything when simple KD> forgiveness should be enough? KD> I don't need to die in order to forgive people. And I'm NOT KD> omnipotent. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DAVID WORRELL vs. KEN'S WHINES, er, KEN WIENS (Unlabeled passages are Worrell's) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DW>> Would *you* like some cheese, Kenny? KW> More of the same kinds of airheaded responses as is also KW> common with the heathens on this Conference. Keep up the KW> good work. Is Jesus proud of you for the above remark? DW>> No, the Bible does that all by itself. We just like making DW>> you morons the butt of our jokes. KW> See what I mean? More one-liners. If you ever come up with KW> anything substantive that will be a genuine miracle. ROFL!!! Too bad you'll not be able to see what is so amusing. Someone should put this one in the FAQ. [And I just did! SMcC] ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ JASON HARMON FINALLY HAS HAD MORE FUNDIE INANITY THAN HE CAN TAKE!! (With Jim Staal as the Fundie, and Sue Alexander as Another Heathen) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ SA> Oh, by the way, I would still like to see your evidence that we SA> are the good guys and "they" are the bad guys. Just having been born SA> and raised in this country does not mean a damn in this argument. JS> JS> OK, here goes: 'In God We Trust' vs God-less Communism. I rest my JS> case. ...pause... You are one of the most ignorant fucks it has ever been my mispleasure to meet. You are a disgrace to whatever species you belong to, and it sure as hell ain't humanity. ... Jesus loves you. I think you're shit wrapped in skin. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ STEVE "HOMOPHOBE" PRATT PISSES HALF THE PLANET OFF! (Including Your Humble FAQ Scribe And A HUGE Cast Of Characters!) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ACT I. With John Musselwhite as "A Man With At Least Five Living Neurons" ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- St> I have never seen anywhere in the HOLY SCRIPTURES that the abomination St> of homosexuality deserves any rights at all. However, I am not so What utter bullshit! You will also find that holy scriptures say it's an abomination to wear clothing of mixed fibres and that if your child talks back to you you can take him to the village square and stone him to death. I suppose that's OK with you, even if homosexuality isn't. St> You MUST read and obey the salvation plan found in Acts 2:38 of the ACTS? Written by that charlatan of Tarsus? He sucked you guys in REAL good, didn't he? See what happens when you ride without a hat? His sunstroke started a religion! St> I realize that I will draw fire from many sources, but remember St> this...Judgement IS real and at that time EVERY knee shall bow and St> EVERY tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..... I hope you aren't wearing a cotton/polyester shirt right now or you're in BIG trouble with God! Idiot! John ... Thanks for your opinion. I hope I can get it off my shoe. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ UNDERTURE: THE HOMOPHOBE *bores* THE MODERATOR TO SLEEP! ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ > I realize that I will draw fire from many sources, > but remember this...Judgement IS real and at that > time EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY tongue shall > confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..... [YAWN] What's real is real. What's fantasy is also real (REAL FANTASY). You must lead a REAL FANTASTIC life of fantasy, Steve. Reality is totally unaffected by your strongest belief. Faith has no effect on fact. It only changes perception/expectation. Be blissful... Or would that be "Blissed be"? Heh. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ACT II: DAVID WORRELL TEACHES BIOLOGY 047 TO AN HOMOPHOBIC AUDIENCE!! ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ St>> SIN will enter heaven. I have heard so many of these animals, no St>> not animals, for animals know to copulate with the opposite sex St>> as nature teaches, but yet these wicked idiots, try their best to Buy yourself two white mice (one male and one female) and two aquariums. Let those two mice breed at will. Once you have at least 2 new males, put them in the second aquarium. Get back to us with the results. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ACT III and FINALE: THE FAQ SCRIBE KICKS ASS AND TAKES NAMES! (FIGHT SCENE) "We're the Authors! Of course we gave ourselves the last word!" -- The Medved Brothers ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ > I have never seen anywhere in the HOLY SCRIPTURES that the abomination > of homosexuality deserves any rights at all. To their very own Hell with your so-called "holy scriptures". The Bible is suitable for usage as toilet paper and damn near nothing else. > However, I am not so foolish as > to not realize that this putrid sickness is never going to just > disappear. It's not a disease nor is it a "putrid sickness". Your homophobic hatred and bigotry, on the other hand, qualify in both directions. > I rest in my knowledge that, no matter WHAT these vile persons think or > believe, God IS going to judge that sickness one day SOON, and they will > have to depart into everlasting punishment, for NO SIN will enter > heaven. Please provide faith-independent evidence of this "God" thing and this "Heaven" thing. You may not use the Bible as evidence for ANYTHING until AFTER you do. Or admit that neither one exists -- NOW, please. "In the beginning God....." -- First Lie in the Bible, Genesis 1:1 > I have heard so many of these animals, no not animals, for animals know > to copulate with the opposite sex as nature teaches, but yet these wicked > idiots, try their best to twist the Scripture to their own damnation!!!! We're not TWISTING the "Scripture". We're IGNORING it. Can you produce your "God" thing for us nasty disbelievers to observe, or is there no reason whatsoever for us to respect your "Scripture" at all?? There CAN be no other choices here. Either your "God" thing exists in the real world (in which case it can be produced for observation by the faithless) or it doesn't (in which case both you AND your so-called "scriptures" are bigoted, homophobic sacks of TIHS). > Yes, they are damned, UNLESS they obey the scriptures, and "Come out > from among them" (the sinner population). I have never sinned. Only those who beLIEve in your "God" thing CAN sin. > You MUST read and obey the salvation plan found in Acts 2:38 of the New > Testament: "Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the Name of > Jesus for the remission of your sins, and you will receive the gift of > the Holy Ghost". Been there. Got no "gift of the Holy Ghost" -- and no other communication from your so-called "God", either. And I'm not the only one of us here who's done just that, and gotten the same non-answer that I've gotten. > I realize that I will draw fire from many sources, but remember > this...Judgement IS real and at that time EVERY knee shall bow and EVERY > tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is LORD..... Jesus, if he ever existed at all (which is doubtful), has NOT existed in any meaningful way in the past 1900-some years. And I'm not bowing down and submitting to some boogieman who exists only in the psychotically deranged imaginations of those who beLIEve in it. Nor am I permitting anyone else to do so in peace. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- THE END (of Steve Pratt, not the FAQ) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ GLEN TODD SHOWS HE PREFERS HAGGIS TO SPAM: (with Leonard Bernier) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Getting a little repetitive with your spamming, aren't you? Can't you even manage to come up with original spams any more? LB> The fool says in his heart, "There is no God". You disprove this by your very presence. LB> The Bible will keep me fron sin OR sin will keep me from the Bible. Evidence? The bible will keep me from sense OR sense will keep me from the bible. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ MARTIN GOLDBERG BLINDS JOHN PREWETT WITH SCIENCE! ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ JP>> Has an observer ever SEEN an atom ? Or an electron ? MG>> Yes to both. JP> Have you ever seen an atom ? Yes. As early as 1970 in one of my first freshman chem texts were pictures of atoms in a palladium catalyst crystal. If you want to argue that atoms, like god, do not exist because they are invisible, you have far to go. We use many other tools besides sight to gather evidence for science. So far, none of the most sophisticated has shown that a god of any description exists. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ROD SWIFT SHOWS THE CHRISTIAN GOD'S JUDGMENT IS IMPAIRED! (With Michael Hardy as A Brainless Fundy) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ MH> Inaccurate. I'm only saying that God, as creator of the human race, has MH> the right to judge the human race, and I trust that His judgment is MH> fair. But judgement would not be required if God actually took the time to make his creation perfect, would he? Why would a deity create something only to damn it? For the joy of damnation? MH> I'm only saying that it is absurd to accuse MH> God of moral failing for judging evil. I agree. We should accuse God of moral failing for screwing up the creation! He refuses to fix his creation. He refuses to act like any other creator and demand 100% reliability and operation of every created unit. He's a *sadist*. MH> Free will, including the freedom to do evil, is what makes our choice MH> to do good meaningful. I argue that our feelings are irrelevant. If we create an elevator that happens to respond to calls to go to floors and pick up and deliver passengers, do we give it the creative circuitry to be able to defy the good deeds we create it to do? No! And if the machine did go haywire and malfunctioned, we'd fix it. Why does God not fix the malfunctioning carbon units, Vger? MH> If we cannot fail, then success is meaningless. But if we were all automatons under the direct control of God, we'd not need to feel "success or failure". We would just *do*. MH> It's like teaching a class and announcing on the first day that MH> everyone will get an A, no matter what. But God can do anything. If I were a creator or inventor, I'd want each one of my creations/inventions that I sold to be 100% reliable, accurate and durable. Why would God create us, only to allow unreliability, disobedience, inaccuracy and indurability to prevail? Why does he not stop such things? It makes no sense to create something that does not work. Rod "why?" Swift ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ AND NOW, FOR A RELIGIOUS PSALM WHICH TELLS THE TRUTH: (by National Lampoon, courtesy of Karl Schneider) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DETERIORATA Go placidly amid the noise and waste, and remember what comfort there may be in owning a piece thereof. Avoid quiet and passive persons unless you are in need of sleep. Rotate your tires. Speak glowingly of those greater than yourself and heed well their advice even though they be turkeys: know what to kiss, and when. Consider that two wrongs don't make a right, but that three do. Wherever possible, put people on hold. Be comforted that in the face of all aridity and disillusionment and despite the changing fortunes of time, there's always a big fortune in computer maintnenance. Remember the Pueblo. Strive at all times to bend, fold, spindle, and mutilate. Know yourself; if you need help, call the FBI. Exercise caution in your daily affairs, especially with those persons closest to you. That lemon on your left, for instance. Be assured that a walk through the ocean of most souls would scarcely get your feet wet. Fall not in love therefore; it will stick to your face. Gracefully surrender the things of youth; birds, clean air, tuna, Taiwan; and let not the sands of time get in your lunch. Hire people with hooks. For a good time, call 606-4311; ask for Ken. Take heart amid the deepening gloom that your dog is finally getting enough cheese; and reflect that whatever misfortune may be your lot, it could only be worse in Milwaukee. You are a fluke of the universe; you have no right to be here, and whether you can hear it or not, the universe is laughing behind your back. Therefore make peace with your God, whatever you concieve Him to be: Hairy Thunderer or Cosmic Muffin. With all its hopes, dreams, promises and urban renewal, the world continues to deteriorate. GIVE UP. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, PLUG YOUR EARS! (With Michael Hardy) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ Like any of you care, my patience for this echo is wearing thin. So I'm going to liven it up with a little game. I've finally set up a twit filter, something I resisted for two years because I tried to believe that anyone could have something worthwhile to say once in a while. But as my patience began to wear, I decided I'd rather spend one hour a night having interesting exchanges than three hours a night wading through drool to get the occasional worthwhile questions. And I observed that the bulk of the drool was coming consistently from the same few people. The following people make up the charter group of twits: Dan Ceppa, David Rice, Fredric Rice, Sean McCullough, Steve Rose and David Worrell. The game is this: I have chosen one person among the current group of non-twitted Holy Smoke regulars. If that person sends enough drool my way to justify being twitted, I will drop out of this echo for at least one month, possibly longer. No clues, though. The person in question was picked at random, with all names in the running except for Boni Hitch and Pam Gray, who don't seem to be in the loop. Could be anyone, other than them or the charter twits. This is like "You Bet Your Life," where you say the secret woid and win $100. In this case, if the right person earns twitdom, you win at least 30 days Mickey-free. (And yes, I'll announce it if it happens.) Go to it, twits! [N.B.: Having found himself almost completely disconnected from HolySmoke after he did this, Mikey officially gave up his "little game" after less than one month!] ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ AND NOW, A GENERAL MAP OF AMERICAN PAGANISM: (Courtesy Norbert Sykes and Pantheacon) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ I just got back from San Jose, California's, 2nd annual Pantheacon, repository for the pagan, the weird, the failed trekkies, the outcasts, and the decidedly religiously odd. It was fun, even just as a spectator sport. I brought back something you might find amusing, in a pagan-religious sense, from a wonderful little magazine that was anonymously put together and distributed (because it rocks the acceptable self-image of paganism?) called The Magical Flame. It has no credits, no contact info, and no copyright. Enjoy! A FIELD GUIDE TO NEOPAGANDOM Is this the first time you've seen this many pagans together? Well, you're in for a deflowering, young earth-worshiper, and you've come to the right place. However, you should realize that there are many, many types of pagans. We old farts just had to keep making the rounds until we either found a group that wouldn't kick us out or founded our own clique. But now, progress has brought us many different flavors to choose from. 1. BRIGHT EYED NOVICE. You just read this cool book about a religion where there's _goddesses_ and gods, and they meet outside, in nature, instead of in some scary old building, and you want to know where to sign up. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Mispronounces god/dess names, has to think a moment about which is widdershins and which is deosil. Has a shiny new athame (rhymes with "A-frame"). 2. I REMEMBER WOODSTOCK. Did I ever tell you about the time I dropped with Kerry Wendell Thornley? Or maybe it was Robert Anton Wilson. I was pretty loaded. Anyway, it was somebody with three names. Or was it three people who had one name? DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Luxuriant gray locks, listens very intently, knows dish about people you've read about. 3. TREEHUGGING NATURE SPIRIT. Prize possession: one of Judi Barry's old tree spikes. Simultaneously believes in universal love for humanity AND returning the planet to a pristine, uncorrupted state. Apt to remove clothes and fondle the shrubbery at a moment's notice. Can discuss compost in detail. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: No meat, no fragrance, no leather, no eco-exploitative garments, no animal tested cosmetics, no cigarette smoke, no drugs, no TV, no car, no corporations, yet very tolerant. 4. ANAL-RETENTIVE CEREMONIAL. Book collection actually holds up the ceiling in places. Is trying to learn how to speak Greek, Latin, and Hebrew, all at once. Does "workings" instead of "rituals." Has a web site that all in Enochian. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Won't go anywhere without a book. Dresses according to planetary coordinates, or according to what Mom finds on sale at Wal-Mart. 5. WOMYNCENTRIC GYNOCRAT. A man's shadow crossed her altar once and she spent three months purifying it. She'll have no wands in her chalice, thank you. No boys allowed in her full moon club. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Tiny axes, just the right size for amputating a penis, are a favored symbol and often hang conveniently from her body parts. When a man approaches she rolls her eyes and stops talking. 6. IS THIS WHERE THE BIG, SMART WOMEN HANG OUT? Oh, they're so nice. All that warm, round, sex positive flesh . . . and you can actually carry on a conversation with them between orgasms . . . pant, drool. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Cute. Horny. Will recite love poetry to you under the full moon. Likes to do it outdoors. Often destitute. All too few of them. 7. HEY BOSS, I'D LIKE TO TAKE FEBRUARY SECOND AS A PERSONAL DAY. Has an entire chapter in their Book of Shadows concerned with spells for purifying the work place. Doesn't mind working on Christmas, especially if there's overtime involved. Quit being overtly pagan at work since getting canned by that closet born again, yet still refuses to say "Merry Christmas." DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Can assume a properly smiley work persona at the drop of a hat. Constantly glances around the room anxiously looking for co-workers and their spies. Non-distinctive hair, no conspicuous tattoos. 8. HI DIDDLY DEE, IT'S A PAGAN CELEBRITY. At conventions, stays on the hotel floor that requires a special key for elevator access. Lurks around hallway corners eavesdropping in order to see if name is being mentioned. Arrives in helicopter especially for ritual. Never seen unaccompanied by beefy Amazonian bodyguards. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Always has plenty of books to autograph and will personally sell them to you at a slight discount from cover price. When you ask them how it's going, they hand you a press release. Seems vaguely afraid of anyone they don't already know. 9. CHILDE OV KAOS. Can name seventeen different industrial bands without pausing to think. Knows what a Prince Albert is. Sleeps in black leather jammies. Painted on their jacket, engraved in their flesh or boldly displayed as jewelry is an emblem which resembles a combination of a corporate logo and an arcane sigil. If you don't know what it is, they'll think you're a dweeb. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Easy to picture as a bike messenger or alternative musician, difficult to visualize as a schoolteacher or research assistant, impossible to imagine as a TV anchor or bank president. Personally feels that if no panicky headlines appear the day after you do a ritual, you screwed up. 10. SCARY DEVIL WORSHIPER. Won't go skyclad. Rarely smiles, except for in a smug, knowing way which insinuates you are an ignorant peasant worthy of conquer. Secretly enjoys Rush Limbaugh and The Bell Curve. Fascinated with Nazis. Probably wouldn't hurt a fly; yet they want you to think they are capable of vast destruction. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Lots of black and red. Men like goatees, women favor eye liner. If you see several of them getting tanked in the hotel bar, it would be wise to stay far away. 11. CROWLEY-IN-A-PAST-LIFE. Every magickal gathering has at least one Crowley-in-a-past-life, along with several variants along the lines of Gerald Gardner, Tituba, Morgan Le Fay. Many of them were abducted by aliens recently, or have had disturbing dreams rich with symbolism which they will tell you, in great detail. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Look for the intense gleam in eyes, the backpack rattling with various psychiatric medicines, the garments that were clearly designed and tailored in outer space. 12. RAVIN' PAGAN. Young and psychedelic. Refuses to do boring Eurocentric rituals and prefers deities from sunny climes with many interesting local plants. Can say "Ayahuasca" ten times, fast. Never goes anywhere without a ritual drum. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Colors that hurt your eyes unless you've taken ecstasy. Bloodshot eyes, peaceful smile, can deliver long quotes from Terrance McKenna. 13. FAIRIE QUEEN. Is he a he? Is she a she? Are they a couple, or are those two a couple, or are all four of them a quadruple? If the answers to these questions could upset or disturb you, best stay away. If, however, the answers to these questions seem overly nosy and judgmental, you might have a real good time. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: When you look at this person, does every sex act you've ever experienced in your life seem hopelessly vanilla? If so, the congratulations -- you have found a faerie. 14. HIGH EPISCOPAGAN. Do their rituals have a script, a choreographer, a lighting director, an orchestra and last three hours? It's a High Episcopagan! It can memorize pages and pages of Olde Englishe, it has more ritual outfits than most people have socks, it considers its main pagan influences to be Gerald Gardner, Judy Garland, and Busby Berkeley. DISTINGUISHING FEATURES: Book of Shadows exceeds five volumes (or five megs of hard drive space). Knows every note of "Carmina Burana." Better not ask about that 18th century seed pearl trim on their ritual hat unless you've got an hour to spare. 15. FUNDAMENTAPAGAN. If it's in a book, it must be true. If it's in an old book, it must be _really_ true. If it's in an old book that was supposedly handed down from oral transmission from people who couldn't read, then it must _really_ be _way_ true. Has hissy fits if anyone shows up at a circle wearing a watch, glasses, or other mechanical assistance. Believes that anyone who has never sustained themselves from their own land, using only primitive agricultural methods, dare not call themselves a pagan. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Gnashes teeth when the old "Crowley ghosted Gardner's Books" argument comes up. Goes around correcting everyone's gaelic/old norse/latin/babylonian. 16. DANCES WITH BUNNYRABBITS. Uses animal symbolism to express nearly all opinions and feelings. Charter member of PETA. Thinks meat eaters should be publicly executed. Has many, many pets. Has a spirit animal. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Not counting the pagan his/herself, how many animals can you find in this picture? if the count surpasses five (including critters found on tattoos, jewelry, garments and undies), you have found a Worshiper of Beasties. 17. PRIESTS AND PRIESTESSES OF POLITIKAL KORRECTNESS. Analyzes everything they hear for sexist-racist-homophobic-imperialist-Eurocentric content without paying attention to what is actually being said. Believes in personal liberty -- everyone has the right to be overbearing, dogmatic and holier-than-thou; not just the religious right. Incredibly boring and annoyingly righteous at the same time. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Beady, hyper alert little eyes are constantly in motion, waiting for someone to say or do something bad. Constantly has loud and attention-attracting fits when confronted with everyday things such as advertising and corporate franchises. Rudimentary sense of humor rarely activated. 18. OUR LADY OF INTENSE SUFFERING. Is constantly persecuted. You are probably persecuting her right now, you just don't realize it. Became a pagan because she decided it was the most persecuted religion of all. Can't enjoy anything because it would be selfish to have fun when so many are suffering. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Tales of woe. Even less of a sense of humor than #17. Bristles whenever you use the words "masochism" or "whining." 19. I AM NOT SPOCK (at the moment). Knows at least three filks about Cthulhu and at least forty Star Trek jokes. Has found a clever way to create simple furniture from stacks of science fiction paperbacks. Can name ninety different kinds of space ship. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Two-fisted drinking style. many cryptic buttons, badges, patches and other insignia. Too smart for their own good. 20. HET-CASE. Insist that they aren't homophobic; they just think that paganism is about a god and a goddess and they do it, and what could be more simple than that, and it just doesn't work right if you try it any other way. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Signifiers of het-dom such as long, manicured nails and wreaths of flowers (on females _only_; the males have big, bushy beards instead). Are secretly afraid gays and/or lesbians are dying to jump their tender hetero bones. 21. NORSE CODE. Heroic and vikingly, these pagans often get into trouble with festival organizers due to their fondness for running around carrying a battle-axe in one hand and a full mead horn in the other. They do throw the best parties, but if you're a wimp, you are expressly not invited. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Look out for the large and foreboding persons wearing runes, with many pounds of amber dangling from their necks. 22. PENTACLES, INC. This is where all the people who are into paganism come, right? So how come they aren't buying my hand-forged Venus of Willendorf necklaces -- they come in silver or gold, and each one has a genuine cubic zirconium belly button. Would you like a reading? Will that be Visa or Master Card? DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Business cards feature little embossed pentagrams. Rarely leaves the dealer's room and can't believe there are so many jewelry sellers present. 23. MONSTER TRUCK PAGAN. Can grow their own food, build their own house, sew their own clothes, homeschool their children and brew their own organic hooch. Are looking forward to the bleak, post-apocalyptic world postulated by the environmentalists as they can't wait to run amok through the country, worshipping ancient gods, blowing up strip malls and rutting on the divider line of every interstate. DISTINGUISHING SIGNS: Resourceful, clever and very well versed in the U. S. Constitution. Eats meat with visible twitches of pleasure. is aware that primitive religions have nothing to do with crystals, Atlantis or unicorns. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ DEFINITION OF "FUNDY": VEST POCKET VERSION by DON MARTIN ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ ========================================================= 3 3 3 Definition of "fundy:" 3 3 Fundy is short for a combination of two words 3 3 emerging from the same Latin root, _fundus_ 3 3 (bottom), from whence _fundare_ (to lay the bottom). 3 3 The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the buttocks. 3 3 2. the anus. Religious extremists, who do their 3 3 thinking with these organs, practice 3 3 _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox religious beliefs 3 3 based on a literal interpretation of the Bible. 2. 3 3 Among some American Protestants, the movement based 3 3 on this belief: opposed to _modernism_. 3 3 3 3 Around here, fundy simply means religious 3 3 asshole. 3 3 3 ========================================================= ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ TYPICAL PROTESTANT CHRISTIAN FAMILY VALUES! (with Jim Germiquet and Judith Bandsma) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ [Unlabelled passages are Germiquet's] JG> and the laws and legal institutions. We are not talking about modern JG> day North America . We are talking of a savage land and a savage JG> people. JB> JB> Bullshit. Women always have and always will be able to adapt to JB> whatever they need to...with or without men. Well it would be pretty hard for women to continue to exist beyond the first generation without men. :-) And of course women will be able to adapt. For example they can use their femininity to seduce men to fall prey to their treachery as Delilah did to Samson , to cut off his hair. In todays society, women use the politician to get extra powers over men. A woman demands to rights to abort a child, the father has no right to stop her. BUT if the woman decides to have the child, suddenly the child is the responsibility of the man and child support is demanded. What kind of BS is that. Rights go hand in hand with Responsibilities. If a woman demands TOTAL rights as to the life and death of that child, then she should also take TOTAL responsibility for it if she has it. CASE CLOSED ! But no, women whine and cry , or the protest and march. They suck up to politicians to demand superiority over the man and then hypocritically talk about "equality". Another example in this vein, is the government has a huge child support agency that chases after men with hundreds of lawyers the woman does not have to pay for. Meanwhile a man has to find a lawyer, pay the expenses of a lawyer, to fight this huge agency. And if he can't afford a lawyer, he gets raped by the system. And now this is not covered by "legal aid". "equality ? NOT!" Where is the huge government agency to take the mans side of the issue ? We pay taxes , but we do not get representation ! Don't talk to me of equality. And then of course they take away the ability for men to defend themselves which used to be physical. SO now in order to stop the mental abuse of a womans bitching and nagging and put downs, men can no longer give her a backhand across the mouth. So he has to take the mental abuse until it drives him crazy enough to get a gun and blow away the next 12 or 15 women he sees on the street before putting the gun to his own head to get away from the monstrous injustice of a society that only cares now about the rights of the women while not providing support and education in dealing with these issues to the men on an equal basis that it is supplied to the women of this society . Now before you get your back up, I am not saying this is "right" I agree it is a "sick" thing to do and that you cannot "justify" it. But women don't get charged for the abuse they dish out to men. If a man were even to complain about it, he would be laughed at and ridiculed. And of course if it ever does get to court , everyone assumes it is the man who is at fault and not the poor little lady. JB> It might behoove you to have us simpering around with a 'poor, JB> pitiful, weak, little me' attitude, but don't count on it ever JB> happening. I may not have as much upper body strength as you have, but JB> I've got a brain that will show me a way to do the same things without JB> needing that strength. What a joke. that is EXACTLY what you do to get your way. Especially in courts or with cops, or with politicians! How do you think you got all this power in the first place except with your snivelling "poor me" crap. And how true is the expression. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Women are becoming more and more corrupt. It is no coincidence that as soon as women got "equal" rights as men the first things they started to do was "get drunk" "smoke" "go to male strip joints" ? The very things they complained about men doing. JB> And yes, I KNOW what I can do. From survival in strange cities in JB> foreign countries to rural living with NO utilities. Oh I am quite sure you do. Ever look down to make sure you haven't grown a penis lately ? JB> Gad, but you are a puke. Nice talk for a "lady". Oh I forgot you aren't a "lady" you are man. And as such demand the right to be as ignorant and abusive as some men choose to be. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ IF ATHEISM IS A RELIGION..... (with Lenny Frank and Charles Creager Jr.) ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ [Unlabelled passages are Frank's] I.e., god is specifically and clearly ruled out as an explanatory mechanism, as indeed it is in ALL science. Does this make mathematics or science a "religion"? CC>Atheism dose. I am not against human reason. I have CC>not condemned human reason. We put some trust in human reason all CC>the time. You made the logical error of extrapolating from the CC>specific case to general. Saying, "because atheism relies on CC>human reason all disciplines of human reason are atheistic" is like CC>saying that because dogs have tails all animals with tails are CC>dogs. Failure to mention God is not atheistic but claiming that He CC>dose not exist is. Blah blah blah. if atheism, as the lack of faith in god, is a form of religion, then is virginity, the lack of fucking, a form of sex? Your logical error is in assuming that the absence of a particular belief must be an affirmation of that belief. wrong. ÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍÍ finis