On Tue, 11 Sep 2001 02:09:54 GMT, hkhenson@home.com (Keith Henson) wrote: (to page 295) 1 A. It was very good. 2 Q. Okay. Just some points that Mr. Harr covered that I 3 just want to go over with you. Okay? 4 A. Sure. 5 Q. Excellent. Now, Mr. Harr brought up in 6 cross-examination about the fact that there have been some 7 picketing at his house; do you recall that? 8 A. I remember him asking me questions about that. 9 Q. Right. Now, my question to you is, did anybody at 10 Golden Era Production or the staff at Golden Era Productions 11 direct there to be picketing at Mr. Henson's house, or his 12 wife's house, or anything like that? 13 A. Absolutely not. 14 Q. Okay. 15 A. This was up in San Francisco or someplace. 16 Q. Okay. Do you know whether the church up in San 17 Francisco -- is there, first of all is there a church you have 18 in San Francisco? 19 A. Yes, there's several. 20 Q. Is it like Golden Era Productions? 21 A. Oh, no. There's only one Golden Era Productions, 22 because we are the film and sound studio for the church. The 23 rest are just churches. What we do is, we do the 24 instructional film, say like a film on education, or drug 25 abuse, handling, or something, we would send it to the 26 different churches. So films we produce here certainly get 27 sent up to the churches in the San Francisco area. 28 Q. So to make an analogy, it would be, like, a local 244 Amanda M_ Faaan _ C''_ .~_ R _ fER7F4 PPP 1 chapel or something to that nature? . 2 A. Yes, yes. 3 Q. Okay. Now, did anybody at the staff of any of those 4 churches direct there be picketing against Mr. Henson? 5 THE COURT: Would Counsel approach, please, for a 6 moment with the reporter. 7 (The following proceedings were held at sidebar.) 8 THE COURT: What is the relevancy of this line of 9 questioning? Offer of proof? 10 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor, Mr. Harr asked - 11 THE COURT: I know what he asked. 12 MR. SCHWARZ: -- on cross-examination - 13 THE COURT: Yeah. 14 MR. SCHWARZ: I should be allowed to cross-examine, 15 rehabilitate. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: I can give you an answer on the 17 relevancy issue, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: What is that? 19 MR. SCHWARZ: I can give you an answer on the 20 relevancy issue if that's - 21 THE COURT: Well, let me hear. 22 MR. SCHWARZ: I'm following up, your Honor, on his 23 -- he's making the implication that they also picket -- that 24 - 25 THE COURT: Who also pickets? 26 MR. SCHWARZ: That the church -- that the 27 Scientologists picket Mr. Henson's house, that's what he said. 28 That's what Mr. Harr cross-examined on. I objected, but it 245 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 was allowed to come in. Now I have to be able to rehabilitate 2 him and say that's not from the church, it's from the local 3 parishioners, your Honor, so it's not as though - 4 THE COURT: You're saying the local parishioners did 5 it, but does he know that? 6 MR. SCHWARZ: That's what he's going to testify to. 7 But they have nothing to do with that. That's like, you know, 8 someone that - 9 THE COURT: Well, don't give me a someone. What I'm 10 interested in is what this witness is going to testify that he 11 knows for a fact, that the local church - 12 MR. SCHWARZ: Did not authorize, did not, like, 13 sanction some type of massive picket, no, he will say that. 14 THE COURT: Well, I know he can say that, I know he 15 will say it. My question is, does he know that for a fact? 16 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes. From his personal knowledge, 17 your Honor. I mean, this is a high level, you know, person 18 who runs Golden Era Productions - 19 THE COURT: I'm not worried about Golden Era, 20 Counsel - 21 MR. SCHWARZ: I understand that. 22 THE COURT: I don't care about Golden Era at this 23 moment. 24 MR. SCHWARZ: Right. 25 THE COURT: What I'm concerned with is the relevancy 26 of whether or not he knows of his own knowledge that the local 27 church went out and picketed. 28 MR. SCHWARZ: I will put it in those terms. 246 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE COURT: All right. 2 MR. HARR: Your Honor, as long as we're here on the 3 -- with the reporter so we don't have to make another trip, 4 can I take up another matter, please? 5 THE COURT: Go ahead. 6 MR. HARR: Before we broke for lunch I indicated to 7 the Court that I still had some additional questions that I'd 8 like to ask regarding those messages, or the postings. And 9 because Mr. Schwarz said he was going to have an objection, I 10 was wondering if we could take that up now. 11 THE COURT: What is your objection? 12 MR. SCHWARZ: My objection, your Honor, is that it's 13 outside the scope of -- so long as it's within the scope of 14 redirect. If it's outside the scope, your Honor, then he's 15 not entitled to bring up new matters. We have to get this 16 trial to go, and that's the evidentiary -- that's evidence. 17 THE COURT: Yeah, I understand the objection, 18 Counsel. I'm going to overrule the objection. I'm going to 19 allow him to question on that. 20 MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor. 21 MR. SCHWARZ: Even though it's outside -- is that 22 your ruling - 23 THE COURT: Counsel, would you please not question 24 the Court's ruling? When the Court makes a ruling - 25 MR. SCHWARZ: Of course. 26 THE COURT: -- it intends that the ruling stand. 27 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. Thank you. 28 (The following proceedings were held in open court 247 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 in the presence of the jury.) 2 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Mr. Hoden? 3 A. Yes, sir. 4 Q. Now, to your own personal knowledge do you know 5 whether or not the staff at these local churches in San 6 Francisco directed picketing against Mr. Henson? 7 A. I know that they didn't. 8 Q. You know that from your own knowledge? 9 A. Sure, because I checked. 10 Q. Okay. And so who were these picketers? 11 A. They were members I guess of the church up there. 12 He's done about 238 pickets in front of all the churches up 13 and down the coast of California, so - 14 THE COURT: Counsel, just a moment, please. I don't 15 know what he just said. Did he say that he did picketing? 16 MR. SCHWARZ: No, he did not say that, your Honor. 17 He's saying, he's referring to Mr. - 18 THE COURT: Then it's irrelevant, Counsel. Ask the 19 witness the question that you want to ask him. 20 MR. SCHWARZ: I will, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: All right. Go ahead. 22 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Who were these picketers? 23 A. I don't know who they were. 24 THE COURT: You've answered the question, sir. 25 THE WITNESS: Yes, I did. 26 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): So -- but they were not part of 27 the staff? 28 A. No. 248 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. That's all I wanted to know. Thank you. 2 Did you tell anybody up in northern California to 3 picket Mr. Henson? 4 A. Absolutely not. 5 Q. Now, on cross you talked about Mr. Henson's 6 clothing, about the fact that he carried a backpack? 7 A. Oh, yes. 8 Q. And the fact that he wasn't carrying a 200-pound 9 atomic bomb or something to that nature? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. Okay. Now, were you concerned about the backpack 12 though? 13 A. Sure. 14 Q. Why were you concerned? 15 A. Because he could put pipe bombs in there or other 16 small incendiary devices, because I have read that he has made 17 pipe bombs and taught others how to make pipe bombs. 18 Q. Okay. And so that's what gave you cause for 19 concern? 20 A. Yeah. Or it could have been a gun in there. I 21 didn't know what was in there. 22 Q. Okay. And Mr. Harr also suggested to you that, you 23 know, whether or not Mr. -- whether or not you really believe 24 Mr. Henson had in fact a cruise missile; are you really 25 concerned about Mr. Henson having a cruise missile? 26 A. I'm concerned about him having a missile and being 27 involved in sending it aimed at one of our buildings. 28 THE COURT: The question was, are you concerned 249 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 about Mr. Henson having a cruise missile? 2 THE WITNESS: Sure. 3 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Is there anything that 4 gives you more concern? 5 A. Yes. The fact that he would have a bomb or a gun or 6 some other explosives in one of -- in his backpacks or a fanny 7 pack that he used to carry, and that he would throw that over 8 the fence, or shoot somebody, or do something to hurt one of 9 my staff. That's what I was worried about. I was also 10 worried about missiles. I don't know the name of the missiles 11 necessarily that he would use, because he's mentioned several 12 different types of names. So I was worried about the 13 missiles. 14 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. I don't have anything further. 15 Thank you, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: Counsel? 17 MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor. 18 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 19 BY MR. HARK: 20 Q. Mr. Hoden, did the -- I believe you testified that 21 the Los Angeles office gave you the information that you've 22 testified about today as far as information on Mr. Henson? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. You had some previous knowledge, obviously, but the 25 stuff that we're talking about in the postings, you received 26 that from the Los Angeles office? 27 A. That's correct. 28 Q. Do you know if the Los Angeles office issued an all 250 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 points bulletin to all northern or southern California or any 2 northern or southern California organizations of Scientology 3 not to go to his house because he might blow them up? 4 A. I don't know what the Los Angeles office did. 5 Q. Do you know if the Los Angeles office issued a 6 bulletin not to go to Mrs. Henson's work because Mr. Henson 7 might be there and he might blow them up? 8 A. I don't know what they did in Los Angeles. 9 Q. Did you -- I won't ask that question. 10 A. Okay. 11 Q. I have a couple more questions, if I might, about 12 some of the postings that we've previously discussed. 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. I'm hoping this will be efficient. So I'm going to 15 hand you certain items that I am going to read. And then if 16 this doesn't work we'll try something else. But going back 17 and forth fumbling around didn't work very well this morning, 18 so let's try something else here. 19 A. Okay. 20 MR. HARR: I'd request permission to approach the 21 witness, your Honor? 22 THE COURT: Yes. 23 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, I'm going to hand you 24 what have been marked previously for identification as 24A, 25 24, 8A, 8, 20A, 20, 9A, 9, 23A, 23, 18A, 18, 19A, 19, 25A, 25. 26 THE COURT: What do you want him to do with that, 27 Counsel? 28 MR. HARR: I'd like him to hold onto them, and I'm 251 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 going to try to go in that same order so we can do this as 2 quickly as possible. 3 THE COURT: Is there a general question you can ask? 4 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 5 Q. Mr. Hoden, I believe you testified this morning 6 regarding Exhibit 24A, and you read certain portions of that 7 document? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. I'd ask if you would please now switch to Exhibit 10 24, which is a -- for identification which was previously 11 authenticated by the Court. And I would ask you if Exhibit 24 12 for identification is in fact the entire posting that you read 13 an excerpt from this morning entitled 24A. 14 A. Let me check. 15 Yes. The - 16 THE COURT: The answer is "yes"? 17 THE WITNESS: Yes. 18 Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'd like to read a portion from 19 this. It's the last paragraph of this, being 24. 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. "Scientologists as distinguished from cult 22 management are not a problem. In fact, they are abused by C, 23 little o, capital S, and would be much better off without it. 24 If they believe in Xenu, or the effectiveness of auditing, or 25 think they are invested with space goodies, I don't care." 26 Did you take that -- unquote. Doesn't that indicate to you 27 that Mr. Henson is not interested in trying to deprive 28 Scientologists of their right to practice their religion? 252 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 A. No. 2 THE COURT: All right. You've answered the 3 question. 4 MR. HARR: Thank you. 5 Q. If I could ask you to please flip to 8A and 8.To 6 try to dispense with some of this, I believe you read from 8A 7 this morning, and I would ask that you would please refer to 8 8 for identification, which has been previously authenticated by 9 the Court. And please let me know when you've had a chance to 10 do that. 11 A. In other words, you want me to look over this Number 12 20 -- Number 8? 13 Q. I would like you to please look at 8A to confirm 14 that's what you read from this morning, and then I'd like you 15 to look at 8 to confirm, if you can, that that's the full 16 document that you read an excerpt from this morning. 17 A. Okay. Yes. This one, 8 is the full one, and 8A is 18 the one that had the smaller part. 19 Q. Thank you. I believe in some previous testimony 20 you'd indicated that, correct me obviously if I'm wrong, that 21 you considered certain of these postings to be reports after 22 the fact from Mr. Henson? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Is this one of the items that you considered to be 25 one of the reports after the fact from Mr. Henson? 26 A. Yes. By that, I mean, he would go out there one day 27 and then - 28 THE COURT: Excuse me, sir, if you - 253 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE WITNESS: Oh, okay. All right. 2 Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'd like please to invite your 3 attention to the paragraph at the -- near the top of the page 4 which begins with "A big." 5 A. I see that. 6 Q. And I would like to read if I might. "A big change 7 today from yesterday, something like one in six of them are 8 now looking frankly at my sign. The sign I show them is 9 either the 'Doubting is not a crime,'" and I can't read the 10 rest of it for reasons that are not to be disclosed. 11 Did you read that portion of the message? 12 A. Yes, I did. 13 Q. Isn't it true that you were concerned that certain 14 Scientologists might get information that was contrary to what 15 you might believe as an important value in your tradition? 16 A. No. 17 Q. I'd like to invite your attention to the paragraph 18 that is in parenthesis a little bit in the top half of the 19 page, starts with a paren, goes, "I can't." 20 A. Yes, I found that. 21 Q. I'd like to read that. "I can't help but wonder --" 22 and again, this is to be considered as Mr. Henson's words, I 23 believe. "I can't help but wonder if Gold Base will be turned 24 into an exhibit like the historical Shaker places." Do you 25 know what Shaker places are? 26 A. I have no idea. When I read that I didn't know what 27 that meant. 28 THE COURT: Excuse me, the answer is "no"? 254 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE WITNESS: No, yeah. 2 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Last paragraph beginning with 3 "They," and again I can't read all of this paragraph. It's 4 not an intentional oversight. "They complained to the highway 5 patrol again today, so when the officer came out, discussed it 6 at them, he got a handful of Xenu fliers. I got his name, 7 Officers Lubes and Dopp, good guys, very professional. Gave 8 me good advice about picketing that location which I will pass 9 on to anyone who wants to take a day or two out there," 10 unquote. 11 My question is, didn't that indicate to you that 12 Mr. Henson is a law-abiding person trying to - 13 THE COURT: That calls for a conclusion on the part 14 of this witness. 15 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Did you take that into consideration 16 in considering your position that he is trying to be 17 threatening? 18 A. Absolutely not, because I talked to Officer Lubes 19 that's mentioned in there. 20 THE COURT: Your answer is "no"? 21 THE WITNESS: What's the question? I'm sorry. 22 THE COURT: Would you repeat the question for him 23 please, Madam Reporter? 24 (Record read.) 25 THE COURT: The answer was? 26 THE WITNESS: I don't understand that question. 27 THE COURT: Why don't you rephrase the question. 28 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Did you read that portion of the 255 Amanda M. Fagan, C_.S.R. #8764. RPR 1 exhibit? 2 A. I did. 3 Q. I take it that had no impact on your previous 4 testimony? 5 A. Oh, none whatsoever. 6 Q. Thank you. Mr. Hoden, if you could please now 7 switch to the folders that hold 20A and 20. 8 A. Okay. 9 Q. Without going into a -- you read a -- excuse me, 20 10 is a previously authenticated document by the Court. In the 11 second paragraph there you read certain information, I'm going 12 to paraphrase, there was a reference in there about housing 13 areas. 14 A. I don't know if we're looking at the same document. 15 Mine starts with, "I stopped on my way." 16 Q. That's 20A. You're exactly in the right place. 17 A. Okay, good. 18 Q. And I am -- I invite your attention to 20 now at 19 this time. You read from 20A, and I would ask you, is 20 the 20 full text of the redacted 20A? 21 A. Yes, it is. 22 Q. Thank you. You did not read this portion, I would 23 like you -- I would like to ask you a question after I read it 24 in quotes, "I did another picket for an hour or so this 25 morning ending at 10:00 or 10:30. Another entheta kept me 26 away from picketing --" 27 MR. SCHWARZ: Counsel, I don't know where we are. 28 MR. HARR: Pardon me. The part that you redacted, 256 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 right where he left off. 2 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. 3 Q. (By Mr. Harr): "I had walked less than a hundred 4 yards from my car, which was parked beyond the east overpass, 5 when I looked back to wave at traffic and saw two guys walking 6 toward me." I'm going to skip - 7 A. I'm trying to find where you are. I don't know 8 where you are. 9 Q. Okay. That would be a good thing for me to let you 10 know. Okay. I'm down, I believe would be the second full 11 paragraph of Exhibit 20 for identification. That begins - 12 THE COURT: Exhibit 20? 13 MR. HARR: Exhibit 20. Beginning well - 14 THE WITNESS: I don't know what page of it. 15 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Excuse me, page one. Page one. 16 A. Oh, okay. Okay. I'm on page one now. 17 Q. I apologize, they aren't numbered. It's just the 18 first page, I believe, of the document. 19 A. Yeah. Yeah. 20 Q. And the excerpt, one of the excerpts that you read 21 this morning I believe is in the second paragraph which 22 begins, "Well, it was not to be --" you read the part that 23 started in mid sentence, "I stopped on my way"? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. All right. Ending with a question mark there in 26 that same paragraph? 27 A. That's correct. 28 Q. Okay. Then it continues. "Anyway, I did another 257 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 picket for an hour or so this morning ending at 10:00 or 2 10:30, another entheta kept me away from picketing until later 3 afternoon, 4:00 or 4:30. I walked less than 100 yards from my 4 car, which was parked beyond the east overpass, when I looked 5 back to wave at traffic and saw two guys walking toward me." 6 I'm going to skip the next sentence. New paragraph. "I 7 profited from Bob's experience. They threatened me, got in my 8 face, and started bull baiting me," in parenthesis "child 9 molester, et cetera, per parishioners dot org," end paren. 10 "What they were after was to bash themselves on my sign or get 11 me to bash them and fall down like --" 12 MR. SCHWARZ: I object to this. What is the 13 relevance of this, your Honor? 14 THE COURT: What is the relevance? 15 MR. HARR: He's peaceful and law-abiding. This is 16 going to go on to say that he avoided a confrontation. 17 THE COURT: Sustained. 18 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Thank you, Mr. Hoden. If you could 19 please put those away as best you can in that limited area 20 there. 21 Could you please refer to 9A and 9. 22 A. Okay. I have both of them. 23 Q. Thank you. I believe 9A is the redacted version of 24 what you read this morning, or at least what you read this 25 morning. And I'm asking you if 9 is in fact the full text of 26 the redacted 9A. I believe the part that you read from this 27 morning in 9 now would be the last two paragraphs on page one 28 of that document. 258 Amanda M. Faaan. C.S.R. .#8764. RPR 1 A. You're correct. 2 Q. I believe you read the first of those and then part 3 of the second one. I'd like to continue where the -- where 4 you left off this morning, if I might? 5 A. Sure. 6 Q. All right. That would be about mid paragraph, it 7 begins with "The Fruitvale"? 8 A. Okay. I'm there. 9 Q. "The Fruitvale apartments have a security guard 10 playing hide-and-seek in the bushes with a radio. I offered 11 him --" 12 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor. 13 THE COURT: Your objection, Counsel? 14 MR. SCHWARZ: It's -- to the in limine motion. We 15 already talked about this, your Honor, 16 MR. HARR: It's giving them -- may I respond, your 17 Honor, or should I not? 18 THE COURT: No. Just go ahead. 19 Q. (By Mr. Harr): I'm going to begin again, please. 20 "The Fruitvale apartments have a security guy playing 21 hide-and-seek in the bushes with a radio. I offered him an 22 O.T.3 -- " 23 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, I thought that 24 was sustained. 25 THE COURT: It was sustained. 26 MR. HARR: I'm sorry, your Honor. I thought -- I 27 misunderstood. 28 THE COURT: It's sustained. Move along, Counsel. 259 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 MR. HARR: If I may make an offer, it was for issue 2 of peacefulness. 3 THE COURT: Calls for conclusion. 4 Q. (By Mr. Harr): If you'd please put those two 5 exhibits away, please, Mr. Hoden. If you could please refer 6 to 23A and 23 for identification. 7 A. Okay. I now have these. 8 Q. And I believe 23A is, in fact, what you read from 9 this morning? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. I'm going to read what is the next paragraph after 12 what you read this morning, which I believe begins, "So." 13 THE COURT: Excuse me. Would Counsel approach 14 please with the reporter. 15 (The following proceedings were held at sidebar.) 16 THE COURT: Mr. Harr, unless you can lay a 17 foundation for those documents, I don't know why we should 18 continue to allow you to read from them. 19 MR. HARR: They were authenticated as Mr. Henson's 20 postings. 21 THE COURT: But you haven't laid a foundation 22 whether this witness has seen them. 23 MR. HARR: I've asked him if these are in fact the 24 full text of the - 25 THE COURT: How does he know? 26 MR. HARR: He indicated that he recognized them. 27 THE COURT: Ask him again. I didn't hear it. 28 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 260 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court 2 in the presence of the jury.) 3 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Have you had a chance to look at Exhibit 23 for 6 identification? 7 A. Okay. 8 Q. Please take as much time as you need to, to look 9 that over. Have you had a chance to look it over? 10 A. Yeah, I've looked it over. 11 Q. Is that in fact the full text -- do you in fact 12 recognize this as the full text of the segment that you read 13 that comprised 23A this morning? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Thank you. "So this week I will be back picketing 16 Gold Base. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you picketed my house 17 five days and my wife's three days, so you get eight days of 18 picket for this or however much seems appropriate." 19 THE COURT: Is that the excised portion? 20 THE WITNESS: Well, that's on this one and it's not 21 on this one. 22 THE COURT: So that's the excised portion. 23 THE WITNESS: Yeah. 24 THE COURT: All right. Thank you. 25 Q. (By Mr. Harr): So it's -- so you were aware that 26 people were picketing Mr. Henson's in some capacity, at least 27 his place -- his house and his wife's place of work? 28 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, asked and 261 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 answered. 2 THE COURT: Sustained. 3 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, would you please put 4 those two exhibits away. 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And would you please, if you would, I believe that 7 next in order, try to retrieve number 19A and 19 for 8 identification. 9 A. Okay, I have those. 10 Q. I believe it's correct that you did in fact read 11 19A. Did you read this? Do you recognize that from this 12 morning as the item that you read from? 13 A. Yes, I remember that. 14 Q. Thank you. If you would please take a moment or 15 whatever time you need to look at what has been marked 19A for 16 -- 19 for identification as previously been authenticated by 17 the Court. And I ask you if you recognize that as the full 18 text of the portion that you read this morning, which was 19 entitled 19A? 20 A. Okay. 21 Q. Do you recognize that as the full text of the 22 document that you read? 23 A. Yes, this is the entire document. 24 Q. Thank you. I would like to invite your attention to 25 the -- one of the portions that you did not read, which is in 26 the lower half of the page, the front page of that, commencing 27 with "I will." And I'd ask if you recall reading that 28 particular paragraph. 262 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE COURT: At what point, Counsel? 2 Q. (By Mr. Harr): The entire paragraph having to do 3 with him meeting - 4 THE COURT: No. Excuse me, Counsel. At what point 5 in time? This morning or prior to this morning? 6 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Do you recall what day you read this 7 document initially, Mr. Hoden? It's dated, I believe, July 8 20th, 2000. Do you recall when you read it? 9 A. Well, I would have likely read it on the 21st of 10 July, which was the day following. 11 Q. And isn't it true that this would indicate that 12 Mr. Henson has been meeting with local ministers? 13 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance, your Honor. 14 THE COURT: Sustained. You can ask him if he read 15 it. 16 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Mr. Hoden, did you read the entire 17 text of Exhibit 19 on or about July 21st, 2000? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. So you knew Mr. Henson was meeting with local 20 ministers? 21 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance. 22 MR. HARR: He is a peaceful guy - 23 THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. I'll overrule the 24 objection for the moment, subject to a motion to strike. 25 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 26 Q. Isn't it true that the reason that you want to stop 27 Mr. Henson picketing is that you want to silence him among the 28 local ministers? 263 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 A. Absolutely not. 2 Q. Thank you, Mr. Hoden. I'd like to retrieve those 3 documents from you. 4 A. I may have jumbled them up a little bit. 5 MR. HARR: That's okay. It's my job to make sure 6 they're straightened out. 7 Thank you. No further questions, your Honor. 8 MR. SCHWARZ: Can I have the documents? Thank you. 9 May I proceed with re-redirect, your Honor? 10 THE COURT: Yeah. 11 FURTHER REDIRECT EXAMINATION 12 BY MR. SCHWARZ: 13 Q. May I approach the witness? 14 I'm handing you back the documents that you just 15 gave Counsel. I only have a few questions for you as a 16 follow-up. Can you turn to find 8 -- what's been previously 17 marked and authenticated as People's Exhibit Number 8? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Okay. Do you have it in front of you? 20 A. Yes. I'm sorry, yes, I do. 21 Q. You do? 22 A. I do. 23 Q. Okay. Now, you were cut off before.What were you 24 going to say about Officer Lebs? 25 A. Lubes. 26 Q. Lubes? 27 A. Yes. Well, he came out and met with me, and he 28 said, "Ken," he says, "You're going to the wrong police 264 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 agency." He says, "We're the Highway Patrol, so we monitor 2 what he's doing along the highway. Although we'll post an 3 officer down here, and if he walks out into the highway then 4 that would be our purview. But what he is doing is a 5 threatening action --" 6 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, motion to strike. 7 THE COURT: It calls for hearsay, Counsel. I'm 8 going to sustain the objection. 9 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 10 THE COURT: Okay. 11 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Without what you were being told, 12 what was said to you? What was the general gist of your 13 conversation? 14 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, hearsay. 15 MR. SCHWARZ: He opened the door, your Honor. 16 THE COURT: No, I think -- I think I agree, Counsel. 17 I'm going to sustain that objection. 18 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 19 THE COURT: The witness can testify as to what his 20 reaction was. 21 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): What was your reaction? 22 A. They were sympathetic to my situation. They 23 suggested I go to the Riverside County Sheriff's Department, 24 and they also suggested that the action be brought to the 25 District Attorneys and charges be filed. 26 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, no relevance. 27 THE COURT: Go ahead. Overruled. 28 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. 265 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE COURT: Anything else? 2 MR. SCHWARZ: Well, yes, your Honor. Just a 3 follow-up. 4 Q. What was the -- what was the problem with C.H.P. 5 versus the Sheriff's Department? 6 THE COURT: Counsel, that's all hearsay. 7 MR. SCHWARZ: That's fine, your Honor. I appreciate 8 that. 9 THE COURT: That's if that's his feeling. You can 10 ask him what he felt about it and what he did as a result - 11 MR. SCHWARZ: I'll move on, your Honor. It's not 12 that important, anyway. 13 THE COURT: All right. 14 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): I want to direct your attention 15 to document Number 23, what's been previously marked as 16 People's Exhibit Number 23. I want you to -- do you have it, 17 Mr. Hoden? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Do you? Can you please open the little file folder? 20 Can you -- can you read the portion above it, above "So"? 21 A. Yes. Shall I start with the word "You"? 22 Q. Please. 23 A. Okay. "You have a point. The only way I can get 24 clear of this Scientology mess is destroy them utterly." 25 Q. Okay. Now, Counsel read this portion, "This week 26 I'll be back picketing Gold Base. Correct me if I'm wrong, 27 but you picketed my house five days and my wife's place of 28 work three days, so you get eight days of picketing plus 266 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 however much seems appropriate," and stopped reading. Would 2 you please read the last four words? 3 A. Which line? 4 Q. Okay. May I approach, your Honor? 5 THE COURT: Yeah. 6 MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I approach also, because 7 we're going to get into an area that's been off limits so far 8 maybe. 9 THE COURT: Go ahead. 10 MR. SCHWARZ: I'm just going to read just these last 11 four words. 12 MR. HARR: You want to go there? 13 MR. SCHWARZ: No. 14 MR. HARR: Thank you. 15 MR. SCHWARZ: Withdrawn, your Honor. Withdrawn. 16 Q. Can we turn to Number 19? My apologies, Mr. Hoden. 17 A. Sure. 18 Okay. I have 19. 19 Q. Can you read the part that starts with -- the first 20 paragraph starting "The funny," can you read that for the 21 jury? 22 MR. HARR: I'm sorry, this is 19? 23 MR. SCHWARZ: Number 19. "The funny." 24 Q. Can you read that? 25 A. Which page? 26 Q. Page one, first paragraph, about halfway down. 27 A. Ah, yes. 28 Q. Starting with "The funny"? 267 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 A. Okay, good. "The funny part is that associating me 2 with this event is totally silly, because the Dora Kent events 3 happened before I got active in cryonics, as anyone who reads 4 Great Mambo Chicken and the Transhuman Condition would see." 5 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. I have no further 6 questions. 7 THE COURT: Counsel, anything? 8 MR. HARR: No, your Honor. 9 THE COURT: All right. Can this witness be excused? 10 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor. 11 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Sir, thank you very much. 13 THE WITNESS: Thank you very much. 14 THE COURT: I hope you don't think we're - 15 THE WITNESS: No, I've learned a lot. Not to talk 16 so much. 17 MR. SCHWARZ: Actually, I'm sorry, your Honor. He 18 cannot be excused. Subject to recall. 19 THE COURT: All right. You understand that, 20 Mr. Hoden? You're subject to recall. 21 THE WITNESS: Okay. And I can - 22 THE COURT: Does the attorney have your phone number 23 so he can reach you if he chooses? 24 THE WITNESS: Yes, he does. 25 THE COURT: Okay. 26 Your next witness, Counsel. 27 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor.The People 28 would respectfully call Detective Greer to the stand. 268 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE COURT: Would you page him, please. 2 THE DEPUTY: Yes, your Honor. 3 THE WITNESS: Good afternoon, your Honor. 4 THE COURT: Would you raise your right hand, sir, 5 and be sworn. 6 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear that the testimony 7 you are about to give in the case now pending before this 8 Court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 9 truth, so help you God? 10 THE WITNESS: I do. 11 THE CLERK: Please be seated. State and spell your 12 name for the record. 13 THE WITNESS: Anthony Greer, G-r-e-e-r. 14 THE COURT: All right, Counsel. 15 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. 16 DIRECT EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. SCHWARZ: 18 Q. I'm sorry it took so long, Detective Greer. For the 19 record, how are you employed? 20 A. I'm a detective with Riverside County Sheriff's 21 Department for 20 years. 22 Q. And what type of training did you receive in order 23 to hold your position? 24 A. Eight hundred hours in the Sheriff's Academy, 25 on-the-job training, and just 20 years of being a cop. 26 Q. Okay. And how long have you actually been a 27 detective? 28 A. Eleven years. 269 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. Eleven years. Just in general terms, if you had to 2 guess, how many interviews have you conducted? 3 A. Thousands. 4 Q. Do you know Mr. Henson? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. Keith Henson? Is he in the courtroom today? 7 A. Yes. He's at the defense table with the pretty 8 white flower on his jacket. 9 MR. SCHWARZ: May the record reflect that the 10 witness has identified the defendant? 11 THE COURT: Yes. 12 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 13 Q. Did you have an occasion to interview this 14 individual? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. In what context did you interview him? 17 A. It was in a -- to the follow-up of a case that was 18 initiated by patrol deputies. 19 Q. Okay. And where did this interview take place? 20 A. At the sheriff's station in Hemet. 21 Q. What was the -- what was the gist of the 22 investigation? 23 A. There was allegations of threats against the Church 24 of Scientology at the Golden Era studios on Gilman Hot 25 Springs. 26 Q. Okay. And you said that you were the follow-up 27 deputy? 28 A. Correct. 270 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. Now, where did this interview take place again? I'm 2 sorry. 3 A. At the sheriff's station. 4 Q. At the sheriff's station. And how did Mr. Henson 5 get to the sheriff's station? 6 A. I contacted him at Golden Era Studios and asked him 7 if he would voluntarily come down to the station for an 8 interview, and he agreed. 9 Q. Okay. And how long did you interview him for? 10 A. Approximately an hour and-a-half. 11 Q. And did Mr. -- did you have occasion to give him a 12 number of postings? Did you give him anything? 13 A. Yes, internet postings. 14 Q. Internet postings? 15 A. Copies of them. 16 Q. Okay. My apologies to the Court, your Honor. 17 May I approach the witness, your Honor? 18 THE COURT: Yes. 19 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. 20 Q. Detective Greer, I'm going to hand you a number of 21 documents that have been previously marked and authenticated. 22 Do you recognize them? They're 17 through 25, what's been 23 previously marked as People's 17 through 25. Can you take a 24 few seconds to thumb through them and tell me if you recognize 25 them? You can just tell me all at once if you want so we 26 don't waste anymore time. 27 A. Yes, I recognize them all. 28 Q. Okay. And how do you recognize them, sir? 271 Amanda M. Fagan, C.O.S.. #8764 RJR 1 A. These were postings that I showed to Mr. Henson 2 during the interview to authenticate. 3 Q. And did Mr. Henson acknowledge that they were his? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. 6 THE COURT: Just a moment, Counsel. 7 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes. 8 THE COURT: Did Mr. Henson acknowledge that he wrote 9 all of those documents? 10 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. 11 THE COURT: Every part of all of those documents? 12 THE WITNESS: Not every part, no, sir. 13 MR. HARR: Your Honor, I don't mean to interrupt, 14 but I think one of those documents was removed because it was 15 redundant of another one is my recollection. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: That's fine. It won't be offered into 17 evidence. 18 MR. HARR: Okay. 19 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. 20 Q. So he indicated that he wrote the postings that he 21 -- that were on the documents that were given to you? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Okay. Now, can you tell us the types of questions 24 that you asked Mr. Henson? How did the interview go? 25 MR. HARR: Objection, that's too broad. That would 26 take most of the afternoon. If we could maybe limit it to a 27 specific area? 28 THE COURT: Can you limit it? 272 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, of course. 2 Q. All right. Did you talk to -- did you ask 3 Mr. Henson about his background in explosives? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. What did he say? 6 A. Mr. Henson said that in the early '70's he worked 7 with explosives professionally and as a hobby. 8 Q. Okay. Now, did you talk to him about the Great 9 Chicken Mambo and the Transhuman Condition? 10 A. Briefly. 11 Q. Did he say whether or not that the events, the 12 events in -- that were recorded in that book were true? 13 A. He said he helped edit the book prior to it being 14 published, but that he wanted to edit it to make sure that it 15 was correct, yes. 16 Q. But that he acknowledged that the events occurred? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. So the events recorded in this book actually 19 happened? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Okay. Did he indicate whether or not he posted to 22 an explosives web site? 23 A. Yes. I believe it's at engineering explosives, I 24 believe it's engineering. At engineering explosives. 25 Q. And what did he say about that? 26 A. That's a web site that he rarely posts on, but he 27 just browses through it mainly. But he does post on it 28 rarely. 273 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. So he does post? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And did he talk about speaking to seventh graders 4 about explosives? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What did he say? 7 A. He said he taught a class in pyrosafety, and I 8 assumed it was pyrotechnic safety, to seventh and eighth 9 graders in Santa Clara Valley. And basically the point that 10 he wanted to get across to the seventh and eighth graders was 11 that it is, and I'm not sure of the exact words he used, but 12 it would be crazy - 13 MR. HARR: I would object, your Honor, because there 14 is no indication that this wasn't after the fact for the 15 relevant period. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 THE WITNESS: He wanted to get across to the 18 students that it would be, in so many words, crazy to build a 19 bomb or an explosives device using a metal casing, that if 20 they were going to build a bomb to use paper casing or 21 packaging. 22 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): So he wasn't discouraging from 23 building a bomb, but rather to change the casing? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Did he indicate whether or not he had worked for - 26 did he indicate whether or not he had worked for a geophysics 27 company, and if so what did he do? 28 A. He just mentioned the geophysics and that he blew 274 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 things up for them in the desert with dynamite. 2 Q. Now, some of the postings that you showed to him, 3 did Mr. Henson know whether or not the Scientologists were 4 actually getting those postings? 5 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, calls for - 6 MR. SCHWARZ: It's an admission, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 8 MR. SCHWARZ: It's going to be an admission, your 9 Honor. 10 THE COURT: Let me hear the question again, please. 11 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Did Mr. Henson ever indicate to 12 you whether he knew his postings were getting, in fact, to the 13 Scientologists? 14 MR. HARR: I don't have an objection to that. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, he did. 16 THE COURT: Overruled. 17 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Did he explain how? 18 A. He said that he knew that the church had assigned a 19 person, specifically a woman, to monitor that web site, and 20 even if I wanted her name he could get it for me. 21 Q. Okay. Did he indicate how he knew about her? 22 A. No, he didn't say how, just that he knew. 23 Q. Okay. Now, did Mr. Henson talk about the events 24 about the G.P.S., concerning the global positioning system? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. Okay. What did he say? 27 A. Well, there was -- I received a picture of 28 Mr. Henson and another male subject at the main gate of Golden 275 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Era with this other subject holding a -- just a device in his 2 hand. And there was a posting about the G.P.S. reading. And 3 I asked Mr. Henson about it, and he said -- first he said yes, 4 it was a G.P.S. reading. He didn't have it, I believe it was 5 a David Rice had it. And then later he said that he wasn't 6 sure it was a G.P.S., but David told him that it was. 7 Q. But at first he admitted that he knew that it was a 8 G.P.S.? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Did he talk about the buses? Did he talk about that 11 at all to you? 12 A. He talked about disrupting the workings of the 13 church, that they seemed to work out there 24/7. And I think 14 without a specific quote he said when he would show up out 15 there it was like roaches when you turn the light on, when he 16 would show up they would scatter and hide and disrupt their 17 normal routine and work. 18 Q. So he knew that he was disrupting their routine? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. Did he indicate whether or not he knew they 21 were afraid of him? 22 A. I don't know that he specifically said "afraid." 23 THE COURT: Then do you know? 24 THE WITNESS: No. 25 THE COURT: Okay, thank you. 26 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Not using the exact words 27 "afraid," do you know whether or not he had some knowledge of 28 his effect on them? 276 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 A. Oh, yes. 2 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, calls for a 3 conclusion. 4 THE COURT: Well, I think it does. 5 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 8 Q. Did he make any statements about psychological 9 warfare? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Can you tell me in what context did that term come 12 up and what he was -- and anything about it? 13 A. Basically that's the way he worded what he was doing 14 to the church, was psychological -- psychological warfare, or 15 psychological weaponry. 16 Q. Against the church? 17 A. Against the church. 18 Q. That's what he was doing? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And he said that to you? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did he say anything about making them paranoid? 23 A. Oh, yes. 24 Q. What did he say about that? 25 A. That that was his sole purpose, was to make them 26 paranoid and he knew that he was. 27 Q. Is that what you mean about not knowing "afraid"? 28 A. Yes. 277 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. Okay. The same type of context, but not - 2 A. He use the the word "paranoid," but not "afraid." 3 Q. But in the general sense is that what the impression 4 you got? 5 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, calls for a 6 conclusion. 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 9 Q. Did Mr. Henson ever mention anything about a cannon? 10 A. I'm sorry, I couldn't - 11 Q. I'm sorry. Did he mention anything about having a 12 cannon? 13 A. A cannon? 14 Q. A cannon. 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. What did he say? 17 A. He said that when he was in the desert he has a 18 silver -- civil war cannon, black, powder-type cannon that 19 they used to fire off in the desert. 20 Q. Now, did he say he still owned that cannon? 21 A. He said he owned it, but I believe he said he didn't 22 bring it to California because he didn't have room for it in 23 California. 24 Q. So he owns the cannon still? 25 A. Yes. 26 THE COURT: Counsel, approach with the reporter, 27 please. 28 (The following proceedings were held at sidebar.) 278 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE COURT: Counsel, I -- I don't understand the 2 relevance of this man knowing that the defendant had a cannon 3 someplace. 4 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor - 5 THE COURT: The witness - 6 MR. HARR: I agree, your Honor. 7 THE COURT: Well, don't agree with me, Counsel. 8 Don't make me run this trial. You should take a part in it, 9 too. But the point is this. We get into such irrelevancy 10 because your complaining witness, Mr. Hoden, has indicated he 11 was frightened because of various factors. This issue now is 12 totally irrelevant to any reason that Mr. Hoden was 13 frightened. 14 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, this goes to one of the 15 elements, your Honor, that we have to prove, is the element of 16 fear. And the reasonableness of that fear, your Honor. And 17 in this case any person who owns a cannon, the People would 18 submit, is worthy of being afraid of. 19 THE COURT: That's absolutely correct. The Court 20 could not argue with that statement. However, there is no 21 evidence that Mr. Hoden knew about Mr. Henson's position with 22 the cannon. That's what the Court means. If you can tie it 23 to Mr. Hoden's knowledge - 24 MR. SCHWARZ: I have two other victims, your Honor. 25 THE COURT: Then you do it with them. 26 MR. SCHWARZ: I'll do it with them. 27 THE COURT: Okay. 28 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. 279 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 (The following proceedings were held in open court 2 in the presence of the jury.) 3 MR. HARR: For the record I'll make an objection, 4 lack of foundation - 5 THE COURT: He's going to take a different approach. 6 Go ahead, Counsel. 7 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. 8 Q. In what -- I'll just move on. 9 Did he reveal to you a general plan he was following 10 with respect to Golden Era Productions and Scientologists? 11 A. To make them paranoid. 12 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. I don't have any further 13 questions for this witness. 14 THE COURT: Any questions? 15 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 16 CROSS-EXAMINATION 17 BY MR. HARR: 18 Q. Good afternoon. 19 A. Good afternoon. 20 Q. Did you tape Mr. Henson's interview? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Did he ask you if you were going to tape his 23 interview? 24 A. He asked me if I wanted to. 25 Q. And what did you respond? 26 A. That if he wanted me to I would. 27 Q. And did you in fact say that you weren't going to 28 tape it, that it wasn't necessary? 280 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 A. I don't believe I said it wasn't necessary. 2 Q. Did you write a report based on your interview with 3 Mr. Henson? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And did you bring that report with you today? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Have you reviewed that report before you testified 8 today? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Do you have an independent recollection of the 11 matters that you're testifying to here today? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. During the course of your interview, Detective 14 Greer, isn't it true that Mr. Henson indicated that he started 15 picketing Scientology around 1995? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And didn't he indicate during that interview that he 18 believed that his picketing had been very effective? 19 A. Oh, yes. 20 Q. And didn't he indicate that he thought that his 21 picketing had been very effective because numerous people 22 either left the church or had not entered due to the 23 information he provided in his picketing? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And didn't Mr. Henson indicate that he believed that 26 the Church of Scientology hated him because people were 27 leaving the church as a result of his picketing? 28 A. Yes. 281 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. And didn't he indicate that he thought that the 2 church was losing a lot of money - 3 MR. SCHWARZ: I have to object to this entire line 4 of questioning, your Honor. 5 THE COURT: Overruled. It's cross-examination. 6 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may the People be heard at 7 sidebar? 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. 10 (The following proceedings were held at sidebar.) 11 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, he can -- it is complete 12 hearsay through this witness. It's admission as to me, but he 13 is a party opponent, and he is trying to allow the defendant 14 to testify without allowing him to take the stand, your Honor. 15 That's not permittable. 16 THE COURT: You want to respond? 17 MR. HARR: Your Honor, the motive -- one of the 18 issues in this case is whether the defendant thought that he 19 was communicating a threat. That was questioned on direct, he 20 talked about paranoia. 21 THE COURT: I'm not going to permit you to 22 cross-examine this witness on whether he knows about something 23 else. If you are -- you limit your cross-examination to this 24 witness's ability to recall what occurred in that meeting, 25 otherwise I'm going to sustain the objection. 26 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 27 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 28 (The following proceedings were held in open court 282 Amanda M. Fagan, C. S. R. #8764 RPR 1 in the presence of the jury.) 2 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Now, isn't it true regarding the 3 testimony you previously gave about the Mambo Chicken Book 4 that Mr. Henson indicated that he did not get an opportunity 5 to make any corrections that he thought were necessary to that 6 book? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Didn't you, in fact, ask Mr. Henson if he had any 9 intention of physically harming Scientologists? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And didn't he respond - 12 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, same objection, your Honor, 13 at sidebar. 14 THE COURT: Well, I don't know what's changed, 15 Counsel. Sustained. 16 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Didn't Mr. Henson indicate that his 17 reason for picketing is political - 18 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, same objection. 19 THE COURT: Sustained. 20 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Have you reviewed a transcript of 21 the testimony that -- excuse me. That's a misstatement. 22 Have you had an opportunity to review the typed 23 transcript of the taped interview that you did with Mr. Henson 24 that you've been testifying about here this afternoon? 25 A. Yes. 26 Q. I'd like to read something to you and see if this 27 might - 28 THE COURT: Excuse me, Counsel. Have you shown the 283 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 officer a copy of the transcript? 2 THE WITNESS: I have one, your Honor. I have one 3 with me, sir. If you can just tell me what page. 4 THE COURT: Tell him what page, Counsel. 5 Q. (By Mr. Harr): On mine it's page 3. 6 A. Three? 7 Q. Yes. It may not be page 3 on yours, but - 8 THE COURT: Well, why wouldn't it be, Counsel? In 9 which case you're reading from the wrong transcript. 10 MR. HARR: The one that I have is -- starts at the 11 top with "H.K.H. colon, my story." 12 THE WITNESS: Nope. Mine doesn't start with that. 13 Q. (By Mr. Harr): What does yours start with? 14 A. "H.K.H., anyway, the scoop on this thing." 15 MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I approach the witness so 16 I can correlate what I believe would be - 17 THE COURT: Yes. 18 Mr. Schwarz, you want to approach also so you can 19 check it out? 20 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, your Honor, People would like to. 21 MR. HARR: Thank you, your Honor. 22 Q. On the transcript I believe "T.G.", is it your 23 understanding that "T.G." refers to yourself? 24 THE COURT: Have a seat, Mr. Schwarz. 25 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes, I am. 26 THE WITNESS: Yes. 27 Q. (By Mr. Harr): And is it your understanding having 28 previously reviewed the transcript that H.K.H. refers to 284 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Mr. Henson? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. "T.G., You're not under arrest. The only reason --" 4 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, lack of 5 foundation. 6 MR. HARR: Mr. - 7 THE COURT: Sustained. 8 MR. HARR: Detective Greer previously testified that 9 he did not indicate -- that he hid the fact that he was 10 interviewing - 11 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor. 12 THE COURT: Sustained. 13 MR. HARR: Your Honor, may I be heard on that? 14 THE COURT: I think the witness testified that he 15 did not tape record the session. 16 MR. HARR: We have a transcript of the tape 17 recording, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Well, then you can ask him about that. 19 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Is this a transcript of the tape 20 recording that you made of that interview, Detective Greer? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. "H.K.H., I'll back up. 23 "T.G., You're not under arrest. The only reason we 24 closed the door is so we can have privacy. You are 25 free to go at any time, and at no time today am I 26 going to arrest you. 27 "H.K.H., For something kind of problems do you want 28 to tape it? 285 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 "T.G., I don't see any need to unless you feel more 2 comfortable if I taped it. 3 "H.K.H., I got a tape recorder. If you want to I 4 can tape it and leave you with the tape. 5 "T.G., No, that's fine. That's fine. I'll just 6 take some notes. And you know, because there is an 7 investigation, I just need to let you know that you 8 are not under arrest." 9 This is a totally voluntary interview? 10 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, your Honor, the question 11 before was whether or not he thought it was necessary. 12 THE COURT: No, the question was whether he taped 13 it. What is your next question, Counsel? 14 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that you led the 15 defendant to believe that this session was not being taped?. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: Objection, relevance, your Honor. 17 THE COURT: Overruled. 18 THE WITNESS: No. 19 Q. (By Mr. Harr): Isn't it true that you told him it 20 wasn't going to be taped? 21 A. I just told him that I wouldn't tape it unless he 22 wanted me to tape it. 23 Q. So you believe that's what this means? 24 "No, that's fine, that's fine. I'll just take some 25 notes and, you know, because there is an 26 investigation I just need to let you know that you 27 are not under arrest." 28 Didn't you just tell him that you were just going to 286 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 take some notes? 2 A. Yes. But you specifically asked me if I told him 3 that I wasn't going to tape it, and I didn't tell him that. 4 Q. That's true, you didn't specifically say, "I am not 5 going to tape it." But when he asked - 6 MR. SCHWARZ: I'm - 7 THE COURT: Counsel - 8 MR. HARR: I'll move on. 9 Thank you, your Honor. .No further questions. 10 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 11 BY MR. SCHWARZ: 12 Q. I want to direct your attention to in your report - 13 do you have it handy? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Detective Greer? To page 5, lines 34 through 36. 16 A. Okay. 17 MR. HARR: What page was that, please? 18 MR. SCHWARZ: Page 5, 34 through 36. Something like 19 that. About the Mambo Chicken Book. 20 Q. Do you see that? 21 A. Uh-huh. 22 Q. Okay. Did Mr. Henson indicate whether or not the 23 events in the book were in fact true? 24 A. Mostly true. 25 Q. Right. Okay. Did he indicate which was not true of 26 the portions you showed to him? 27 A. No. 28 Q. So he didn't -- when you showed him the Mambo 287 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Chicken Book did he say, "No, no, no, that's not true"? 2 A. Actually, it wasn't the book. It was inserts from 3 the book. But no, he didn't say that. 4 Q. He didn't scream up and down. And the excerpts from 5 the book, did that deal with atomic explosions and stuff like 6 that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. So when you showed it to him he didn't object and he 9 didn't say, "That's not true"? 10 A. Correct. 11 Q. About the whole taping thing, since we're going to 12 get back, just to follow up with Mr. Harr's question about the 13 taping thing, the interview rooms, tell us about your 14 interview rooms. How do they work? 15 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, relevance. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: It goes directly to it if the witness 17 will be allowed to answer, your Honor. 18 THE COURT: Well, I think it's getting into the 352 19 area. 20 Go ahead and answer the question. Overruled. You 21 can answer that question briefly. 22 THE WITNESS: The interview rooms are set up to tape 23 people. 24 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay. Did you push a button? 25 A. No. 26 Q. It just does it? 27 A. Well, no. You have to set it up to do it, it 28 doesn't just do it on its own. But the recording device is 288 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 not in the same room, no. 2 Q. And you didn't push the button for recording, I 3 mean, when it happened during this conversation? 4 A. Not during the conversation. I pushed it prior to 5 going into the room. 6 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. Thank you. 7 MR. HARR: I will be brief, your Honor, if I might. 8 THE COURT: All right. 9 RECROSS-EXAMINATION 10 BY MR. HARR: 11 Q. So at the time you told Mr. Henson you were just 12 going to take notes, the tape recorder was running; is that 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 MR. HARR: Thank you. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: No further questions. 17 THE COURT: All right. Can this witness be excused 18 subject to recall? 19 MR. SCHWARZ: Subject to recall, your Honor. 20 MR. HARR: Yes, your Honor. 21 THE COURT: Thank you, Detective Greer. 22 THE WITNESS: Do these stay here, your Honor, or do 23 they go somewhere? 24 MR. SCHWARZ: I'll take it. Thank you. 25 THE WITNESS: Good luck. 26 THE COURT: Would Counsel approach without the 27 reporter, please. 28 (Discussion held off the record.) 289 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 THE COURT: Call your next witness, please. 2 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, may I check outside to 3 make sure Mr. Hackermann is still here? 4 THE COURT: Sure. 5 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. People would respectfully 6 call Mr. Wayne Hackermann. 7 THE COURT: Mr. Hackermann, would you come up here, 8 please. 9 THE WITNESS: Sure. 10 THE COURT: Thank you, sir. Please face the clerk 11 and raise your right hand. 12 THE CLERK: Do you solemnly swear that the testimony 13 you are about to give in the case now pending before this 14 Court shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the 15 truth, so help you God? 16 THE WITNESS: I do. 17 THE CLERK: Please be seated, and state and spell 18 your name for the record. 19 THE WITNESS: Wayne Albert Hackermann, W-a-y-n-e, 20 A-1-b-e-r-t, H-a-c-k-e-r-m-a-n-n. 21 THE COURT: All right, Counsel. 22 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 23 DIRECT EXAMINATION 24 BY MR. SCHWARZ: 25 Q. Mr. Hackermann, where do you work? 26 A. I'm a dispatcher for Hemet Ready Mix. 27 Q. And how long have you held that position? 28 A. I've been with the company about 30 years. I've 290 . Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 been the dispatcher for six. 2 Q. Okay. And how long have you lived here in the 3 valley? 4 A. Forty-seven years. 5 Q. Forty-seven years. Okay. Have you ever met the 6 defendant, Mr. Henson? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Well, first of all, have you ever seen 9 Mr. Henson? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Would you please point him out and - 12 THE COURT: Is he the gentleman sitting at the end 13 of counsel table? 14 THE WITNESS: Yes. 15 THE COURT: For the record the defendant. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. 17 Q. What were the circumstances of your meeting? 18 A. He come into my dispatch office one day and asked 19 some questions about our trucks that were pouring at Golden 20 Era. 21 Q. And what question did he ask? 22 A. What we were pouring and -- basically. 23 Q. All right. Did he say anything about a bomb 24 shelter? 25 A. He asked if we were - 26 MR. HARR: Objection, leading, your Honor. 27 THE WITNESS: Well, he asked if we were pouring a 28 bomb shelter. And I said no, we were pouring colored concrete 291 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 for sidewalks. 2 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Okay.In all the time that 3 you've been in the concrete business, has anyone ever asked 4 you if someone was building a bomb shelter? 5 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, no relevance. 6 THE COURT: Sustained. 7 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. 8 Q. So your testimony is that he inquired about building 9 a bomb shelter? 10 A. Yes. 11 MR. SCHWARZ: Okay. No further questions. 12 THE COURT: Anything? 13 CROSS-EXAMINATION 14 BY MR. HARR: 15 Q. Mr. Hackermann, I don't mean to belabor this, 16 talking about building a bomb shelter. Nobody was talking 17 about building a bomb shelter; is that correct? 18 A. No. He just asked me if that's what we were 19 pouring. If we had poured one. If that's what we were doing 20 that day, is pouring a bomb shelter. 21 Q. And you just obliged him by saying it is a sidewalk 22 or whatever? 23 A. Yeah. 24 MR. HARR: All right. Thank you. 25 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, I have one redirect 26 question. 27 REDIRECT EXAMINATION 28 BY MR. SCHWARZ: 292 Amanda M. Fa an C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 Q. What was the time? And I apologize I didn't ask 2 this question. Can you approximate what day this was? Was 3 this in what year, last year, the year before? 4 A. Oh, I -- I have no -- six, nine months ago. 5 Q. Between May, 2000 - 6 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, leading. 7 THE COURT: Okay. 8 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): Six to nine months ago? 9 MR. HARR: Objection, your Honor, leading. 10 THE COURT: He said six to nine months. Overruled. 11 THE WITNESS: Yeah. I don't remember the exact. 12 Q. (By Mr. Schwarz): The exact dates? 13 A. No. 14 Q. But six to nine months ago? 15 A. Yeah. 16 MR. SCHWARZ: I appreciate that. Thank you. 17 MR. HARR: No questions. 18 THE COURT: Thank you. That was tough, wasn't it? 19 THE WITNESS: Just sat in the hallway. 20 THE COURT: All right. Ladies and gentlemen, we 21 have obviously not finished. We have another witness that may 22 or -- may take the rest of the afternoon, and maybe part of 23 Tuesday, which is our next session. So that Counsel has a 24 chance to put that witness on at one time so that you don't 25 get the testimony piecemeal, and because it's Friday 26 afternoon, kind of get-away date today, we'll recess or 27 adjourn a little early. And we'll let you go now. Instead of 28 giving you a recess and asking you to come back in 15 minutes, 293 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 we'll ask you to come back Tuesday morning. 2 Let me ask Counsel, is there any reason why either 3 Counsel can't be here at 9:00 o'clock on Tuesday morning? 4 MR. SCHWARZ: No, your Honor. 5 MR. HARR: No, your Honor. 6 MR. SCHWARZ: But before the jury is dismissed, your 7 Honor, may I approach the bench with respect to an 8 admonishment? 9 THE COURT: Yes. 10 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you. 11 THE COURT: All right. 12 (Discussion held off the record.) 13 THE COURT: Counsel reminded the Court, let me just 14 remind you of a couple of things. You've heard about an 15 internet site, you've heard about the particular location in 16 question. I'm going to ask you or remind you that there is a 17 standing court order that you not do any experiments, that you 18 not go out to the site, that you not look at the internet any 19 more than you would have had this not been the trial. 20 I also want to caution you about any press 21 renditions of what occurred. It's more than likely that there 22 might be a story -- well, that's kind of a dumb statement, 23 isn't it? It's more than likely. It's possible that there 24 will be a statement in the press of something that occurred 25 here. You'll recall the Court's admonition early on. We 26 request that you not read any stories, don't form any 27 opinions. I'm certain that many of you have them now. And 28 that's okay. Don't share them with anybody. Please don't 294 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR 1 talk to anybody at home, or in the jury, or anywhere else 2 until we give you the case, which should possibly be Tuesday 3 afternoon. 4 Have a pleasant weekend. Drive carefully. And 5 we'll see you 9:00 o'clock Tuesday morning. Thank you. 6 (The jury exited the courtroom.) 7 THE COURT: Okay. Counsel, I'm going to again 8 request that Counsel get here at 8:45. If you have something 9 that you want us to record, if you want to be here at 8:30 10 I'll be here at 8:30. I actually will be here at 8:00, but I 11 don't expect you to be here at 8:00. 12 MR. SCHWARZ: Your Honor, there may be, since we're 13 going to be taking up on Tuesday the jury instructions, and 14 I'm sure that the Court does not want to delay the jurors any 15 more than necessary, I would respectfully request that we meet 16 here at 8:30 and then go over our proposed jury instructions. 17 THE COURT: Sure glad to do it. 18 MR. HARR: Maybe we could do the proposed verdict 19 form and all that. 20 MR. SCHWARZ: Yes. 21 THE COURT: Okay. All right. We'll see you at 22 8:30. 23 MR. SCHWARZ: Thank you, your Honor. Have a nice 24 weekend. 25 THE COURT: Thank you, you, too. Court's adjourned. 26 What happened to those other questions that we had? 27 I think this is another question. I knew it would come. I 28 was surprised that neither of you offered - 295 Amanda M. Fagan, C.S.R. #8764 RPR