[This interview was manually transcribed into Word 97 from the Clearwater Police Departments Lisa McPherson case CD, .tifs 0219-0237 and 0242-0280, and then manually reformatted for Usenet.] FLORIDA OFFENSE/INCIDENT REPORT-SUPPLEMENTAL/ CONTINUATION ORIG. SUPP.X FLO 520300 CLEARWATER P.D. AGENCY REPORT NO. 95-29158 NAME(S): Lisa McPherson ORIG. DATE REPORTED: 12/6/95 DENT: AOA/Death Investigation VI WILL PROSECUTE: Y N LOCATION: 644 Pierce Street PAGE 1 OF 58 INVESTIGATOR: Det. Ron Sudler Today's date is 4/9/96. The time is 9:12 a.m. This is going to be an interview concerning the Lisa McPherson investigation, Report #95-29158. The interview is being conducted with a Mr. Paul Greenwood. Present during the interview is Attorney Robert Johnson, Sgt. Mark Teunis of the Clearwater Police Department, and myself, Det. Ron Sudler. Det. Sudler: Mr. Johnson, for the record, I'd like you to state your name...I'm sorry...Mr. Greenwood...for the record I'd like you to state your name, umm...date of birth, and your present address. Greenwood: Okay. My name is Paul Greenwood...uh...9/9/39...and 503 Cleveland. Det. Sudler: Okay. Cleveland Street here in Clearwater? Greenwood: Uh Huh...in Clearwater...right. Det. Sudler: How long have you resided at that address? Greenwood: Well, that's where...that's where I work. Uh..about a year. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Just about a year. Det. Sudler: Alright. Are you a resident of...of Clearwater or are you....? Greenwood: Yeah, I am now. Det. Sudler: You are now...okay...alright. Umm...so you live here full year? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: You're not...like many of our snowbirds come down from up north and spend a partial... Greenwood: No, I'm...I'm here. Det. Sudler: Full year resident? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Is that just recently or is that been a year you've lived here or...? Greenwood: Well, I moved here a year ago. PAGE 2 Sgt. Teunis: A year ago? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: At the time of this incident, were you here...living here? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Where are you from originally? Greenwood: Bellingham, Washington. Det. Sudler: Washington. Greenwood: North of Seattle. Det. Sudler: You went diagonally across the whole... Greenwood: Just about as far away as I could get and stay in the country. Det. Sudler: Okay. A little bit more temperate climate down here huh? Greenwood: Actually no. It's more severe in the summer significantly. Det. Sudler: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Where actually Mr. Greenwood do you live at? Greenwood: Uh...the Hacienda...I believe it's called the Hacienda Gardens on uh...what is that street... Sgt. Teunis: Saturn Avenue? Greenwood: Saturn...right. Sgt. Teunis: Is there an apartment or a building? Greenwood: Yeah, A-13. Sgt. Teunis: 8... Greenwood: A-13. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...as we've discussed previously...I know that umm...we had an interview with you back on I believe it was December the 6th concerning Lisa. You...you recall that interview? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. We're just umm...basically doing some more followup investigation for the Medical Examiner in PAGE 3 this case. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Umm...her family...you know...lives in Dallas and they're not...you know...they did not have the contact with her...you know...prior to her death to provide a lot of information about her health, etc., and some of her background. And that's what we'd like to do with you today...is to go back over...you know...what knowledge you had of Lisa. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: A little bit of...you know...more detailed than we did umm...so a lot of the stuff that we're gonna cover is stuff that we've covered over there too. Greenwood: Sure. Det. Sudler: So I apologize for the repetition of it...in it. But just to make sure that we've got it all and...and again I want to make this a fair and accurate statement. That's why it is being tape recorded today. Umm...I understand that uh...you had contact with Lisa at this incident. When was the first time that you'd...you'd met Lisa McPherson? Greenwood: That night. Det. Sudler: That night? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: And we would be referring to December the 5th? Greenwood: I don't remember the date. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...the night that she was taken to the hospital. Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...what was your involvement in that? Greenwood: Uh...just to assist taking her to the hospital. Det. Sudler: Who contacted you? Greenwood: My Senior...A.J. Sprecher. PAGE 4 Det. Sudler: Okay. Senior...? Greenwood: Oh...uh...my boss. Det. Sudler: Okay...alright. A.J. Sprecher? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Can you spell that? Greenwood: Uh...S P R E C H E R. Det Sudler: Okay. And boss over a...a particular job function that you have? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: What would that be? Greenwood: Okay. I'm a...it's called a Deputy Staff Section Officer...Staff Section meaning the part in the organization that handles staff. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...like employee relations? Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: See, I...I make sure that staff gets training...uh...being educated on their particular post...and auditing, which is a...a church function. Det. Sudler: Okay. How did you get a job like that...I mean...do you have background in that? Greenwood: I have no idea. I was just chosen for it. Det. Sudler: Okay. They must have liked your resume better or or something. I understand you have a...a background as a chiropractor. Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Retired? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Umm... Sgt. Teunis: Where was that at? Greenwood: In Bellingham, Washington. Sgt. Teunis: How...how long did you do that? Greenwood: Twenty years. PAGE 5 Sgt. Teunis: Twenty years? Greenwood: Uh Huh. I was eight years there. Det. Sudler: And after retirement you went back into full-time work again. Greenwood: It...yeah, it works out that way. Det. Sudler: Right...yeah. Greenwood: Changed jobs. Det. Sudler: Umm...so you received a call about Lisa from...from Dr. Johnson...from Janice? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Or who called you? Oh...you...you're... Greenwood: No, I was on...actually doing some drilling on study. Det Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: And my Senior came up to me and asked me to go do this. Det. Sudler: Okay. And who did he receive the call from? Greenwood: I have no idea. Det. Sudler: No idea. Okay. And what...what basically was the part of that umm...conversation? How did that transpire? Greenwood: Uh...the...when she asked me? Det. Sudler: Yes. Greenwood: Oh, she just asked me to go over to the cabanas and help Laura take...what's her name...Lisa...to the hospital. Det. Sudler: And you're referring to Laura Arrunada? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...what is her role with the...with the organization? Greenwood: I don't know. Oh, Laura? Det. Sudler: Yeah. Greenwood: She was the Medical Liaison Officer. Det. Sudler: Okay. PAGE 6 Sgt. Teunis: Did she make mention of what hospital on the telephone? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Your Senior...when they talked? Greenwood: No, it wasn't on the phone. She came to where I was. Sgt. Teunis: Came to you? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: In person? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: And basically told or asked you if you could assist in bringing Lisa to the hospital. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Was there anything else said about any hospital...who might be going with you...or anything like that at that time? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. And you referred to the cabanas as where Lisa was staying? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Where is that at? Greenwood: That's at the Ft. Harrison... Det. Sudler: Okay...at 210? Greenwood: Yeah...210 North or 210...I don't know...North Ft. Harrison...is that it? Sgt. Teunis: South. Greenwood: South...okay. Det. Sudler: Umm...and at this time, were you also living on Saturn? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you recall what time it was when you got this call...afternoon...evening? Greenwood: Uh...around 8:00. Det. Sudler: About 8:00? PAGE 7 Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. And you drove to your residence to Ft. Harrison? Greenwood: No, I was at the Ft. Harrison... Det. Sudler: You were already there? Greenwood: Yes, I was in this place called The Internship...it's a study area. Det. Sudler: Alright. So it didn't take you very long to respond there? Greenwood: Oh no...a couple minutes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...when you arrived at the cabanas... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Do you recall what room you went to? Greenwood: Umm...no...2 something...20...I don't know. It's on the bottom floor. Det. Sudler: Okay. On the bottom floor? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Okay. Who was present when you arrived? Greenwood: Laura. Det. Sudler: Okay. Laura Arrunada? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: And who else? Greenwood: Uh...Janice was...where was she...she went to get her car. Det. Sudler: Okay. This was I guess relayed to you by Laura that she was gone? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Alright. Umm...and Lisa was there obviously. Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Where was Lisa in the room? Greenwood: On the bed. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...describe the room for me. Greenwood: Well, let's see...it had two beds..like a fifth of the room would be a bed there, a bed there...and PAGE 8 then there's like a long dresser cabinet on this wall. And then a door out that way into a closet and a bathroom. Sgt. Teunis: Have you been in other rooms over there other than that one before that? Greenwood: Umm...I've been in...not in the cabanas...no. Sgt. Teunis: So this is the first time you've gone to one of those cabana rooms? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: Are the cabana rooms all those that sit on the first and second floor? Greenwood: In that lower section in the back on what...is it Osceola? Sgt. Teunis: Osceola. Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So all of those that front Osceola are what you know to be the cabanas? Greenwood: Uh...I don't know if all of them...at least the ones in the two story part. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: I don't know if that other part...maybe...there may be...I don't...I don't know. Sgt. Teunis: Alright. Greenwood: I've never really looked that close. Sgt. Teunis: And...and just so we understand Mr. Greenwood, you...you said that she was on what floor? Greenwood: The bottom floor. Sgt. Teunis: The bottom floor? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: And... Greenwood: Ground level. Sgt. Teunis: And you mentioned to us that there was two beds in there? PAGE 9 Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: Can you describe them...the beds...is it like a double bed...single bed? Greenwood: Yes...double. Sgt. Teunis: Double beds? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: And you're sure there was two beds in there? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: How were they...uh...do you remember...were the beds made or unmade? Greenwood: Made up. Sgt. Teunis: Made? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Do you remember exactly what was on the beds as far as a...a covering...was it... Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: You know the color or anything like that? Greenwood: NO VERBAL ANSWER Sgt. Teunis: Okay. You don't remember that, right? Greenwood: Didn't really care. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And tell...tell us if you would Mr. Greenwood exactly what you saw that you can remember in the room when you...you arrived there. You mentioned the beds. You...you gave us a layout of the room. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Uh...what else did you see in there? Greenwood: Uh...you mean like things? Sgt. Teunis: Things...personal effects of...of Lisa or anything like that. Greenwood: On the top of the dresser like thing there were like a water bottle and...oh God, what else was in there...personal things...you know...like...like what...there were some vitamins. There was if I remember right PAGE 10 a hairdryer or something like that...some personal girl things...you know. I don't know...I didn't pay much attention to that. Umm...seems like there was...no, that's about it. Sgt. Teunis: How did you know they were vitamins Mr...Mr. Greenwood? Greenwood: Well, I...you know...vitamins come in distinctive vitamin bottles. Sgt. Teunis: So you saw the bottle? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Did you see what was in the bottle? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So by the...the bottle...you concluded it was vitamins...correct? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: And...and the water you mentioned. Greenwood: Just a jug...you know...like a...one of these... Sgt. Teunis: Go ahead Ron. Greenwood: A quart maybe. Det. Sudler: Quart...like a... Greenwood: Or a liter or something like that. Det. Sudler: Like a spring water? Greenwood: Yeah, one of those. Det. Sudler: Like Evian or...? Greenwood: Evian...that's what I was trying to say...one of those. Sgt. Teunis: And...and did you see the...the make of that or the brand of that? Greenwood: INAUDIBLE Sgt. Teunis: And was that...did it have water in it or was it empty? Do you remember? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: So you just.. Greenwood: Seemed it like it had...it looked like water in it PAGE 11 ...yeah Sgt. Teunis: Alright. So obviously it was clear then, right? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: And you could see that there was some type of liquid in there? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Det. Sudler: Was there any other medication present in the room? Greenwood: None that I saw. Det. Sudler: Any evidence that she had been ill? Greenwood: Well...what do you mean evidence? Det. Sudler: Well... Greenwood: You mean like she's laying on the bed and not doing well...that's... Det. Sudler: Okay. Well, describe that...I mean...did it look like she had appendicitis or vomiting or anything like that? Greenwood: No, nothing like that. Det. Sudler: Okay. Well, what did you see? You said that she was... Greenwood: She was dressed and laying on the bed and uh...uh.. eyes open and breathing heavily. Det. Sudler: Okay. Heavily...describe that...I mean...was it forced...you know... Greenwood: Umm... Det. Sudler: Respirations or... Greenwood: When I say heavily, it's...it was a sound more than anything else...you know what I mean...just a...Whhhh Hhhhh...like that. Det. Sudler: Labored? Would that be accurate? Greenwood: I don't know. It's just...I just call it heavy...yeah... Det. Sudler: Well... Greenwood: You know...normally you don't hear somebody breathe. PAGE 12 Det. Sudler: Okay. What was she wearing? Greenwood: Seems like a tee shirt and a pair of pants...you know...like jeans or something. Det. Sudler: Okay. Did she appear that she had been taking care of herself or...? Greenwood: No. Appear that she was..had been taking care of herself? Det. Sudler: Yeah. I mean...was she groomed or...you know...? Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: So... Sgt. Teunis: Do you remember... Greenwood: Her hair was a little messed up. Sgt. Teunis: Do you remember the clothing or are you just...? Greenwood: No, I'm just looking in my mind a picture of when I walked in the room and she was wearing pants of some sort. I think they were jeans. Sgt. Teunis: Alright. Greenwood: And then a shirt of some sort. Sgt. Teunis: Do me a favor. When...when we ask questions about that, if you really don't know, then kinda let us know if you don't know or not. Uh...for an example, like the clothing...I know it's hard to remember some of those things... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Back...you know...several months ago. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: So we're trying to get an understanding exactly what was in there. But if you don't know, then please tell us that, okay. Greenwood: I've got that. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Uh...a lot of us during conversation tries PAGE 13 to "Well, I think she was wearing jeans"... Greenwood: Clothes pants...let's put it that way. Sgt. Teunis: Okay...alright...well, that's...that's exactly the point I'm trying to make to you. Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: If you know they're pants, then just say pants or...you know...shorts or whatever. Greenwood: Got it. Sgt. Teunis: Just so we have a clear understanding. Uh...we mentioned...Det. Sudler's talked to you briefly about the breathing and all that. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Umm...you were a retired...you are a retired chiropractor? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: What kind of training did you go through to become a chiropractor? Greenwood: Uh...four years of chiropractic college and then prior to that four years of university. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: Now the university was not in preparation for chiropractic. It was general education in business. Sgt. Teunis: Oh...okay. Uh...so you switched hats before? Greenwood: I switched hats before. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: I'm noted for that. Sgt. Teunis: What college did you go to? Greenwood: Palmer College of Chiropractic...Davenport, Iowa. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And before that? Greenwood: University of Washington. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And you received a degree at both of those colleges? Greenwood: Yes. PAGE 14 Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And immediately following the second degree, you went into practice by yourself? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. You didn't have any partners or anything like that? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: And...and your office...you had your own office...correct? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So would it be safe to say that you do have some medical background then, right? Greenwood: No, I have no medical background. Sgt. Teunis: No background... Greenwood: I have a chiropractic background. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Excuse my ignorance about what is involved in that type of schooling, but is there any medical training at all in a chiropractic school or...? Greenwood: No. There's basic science training...you know. We study the basic sciences so that we can understand what we are doing as a chiropractor. But it's a totally different approach to a medical approach. A medical approach is looking at symptoms...looking at what a person is doing and then trying to determine what's wrong. A chiropractor does not do that. A chiropractor uses the same data but a totally different way of looking at it. Sgt. Teunis: Okay...but...alright, I'm trying to understand this, okay. Greenwood: Yeah, I got that. Sgt. Teunis: And you still would look at symptoms, right? If somebody came in for example of a...a backache, you would have to look at the symptoms there and decide what you would do or no? PAGE 15 Greenwood: No...no...you don't look at symptoms. Symptoms are the last step in the process. What you do is you...you know...as...as a chiropractor, you have numerous...a multitude of tests...chiropractic tests that you do to determine the source of the problem...of any problem. And what you're doing is looking for a breakdown in communication in the body. You find that and really the symptoms are for the patient. I don't...I've never paid much attention to symptoms. Sgt. Teunis: I know here when we became police officers...we have to go through a basic first responder type training course with medical so we know how to do CPR and we know how to recognize certain things. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Uh...is...is there such a thing in your type of training as far as chiropractic school uh...similar to that of where if somebody became ill in your office you would know how to treat that? Greenwood: Uh...a kind...kind of a cursory thing where you'd like...somebody would come in and give us a CPR treatment and that sort of thing. Basically what we did was called 911 and got them to the hospital. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: Tota..totally different approach. Sgt. Teunis: So if there was an emergency in your office, you wouldn't necessarily treat them at that point. You would immediately call 911. Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: Sorry Ron...go ahead. Det. Sudler: That's alright, I... Sgt. Teunis: I just...I was trying to get an understanding... Greenwood: Yeah, see...there's...there's really...we're not...we're not anything like medical doctors at all. PAGE 16 Det. Sudler: Okay. So was there a...a specific reason for contacting you to assist with the transport? Greenwood: I have no idea. Det. Sudler: Okay. You...I mean...obviously you were singled out from I guess at least several other persons that would be around to transport. But there wasn't any specific reason why they called you? Greenwood: Not that I'm aware of. Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you think they relied on...you know...the fact that you were a retired chiropractor? Is that common knowledge? Greenwood: Oh...of my boss...yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: I try not to have that get around. Det. Sudler: Okay...alright. Uh... Sgt. Teunis: Your boss uh...is a female? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: A.J. stands for... Greenwood: Andrea Jane. Sgt. Teunis: Andrea Jane? Greenwood: And for that reason she goes by A.J. Sgt. Teunis: I understand. And her job function is what? Greenwood: Uh...she's a department head. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: So over umm...the Staff Section...like what I do and over...let's see, what is it over...Auditing...over the...the course room...staff...it's called Staff College. Umm...over the medical office...Medical Liaison Office. That's about it. Sgt. Teunis: That was probably the point I was trying to get at. So she is over top of the medical part of this? Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. PAGE 17 Greenwood: Administratively...yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Alright. So you don't know if Janice called her direct then? Greenwood: No, I have no idea. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. All's you know is she came to you in person... Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: And asked you to assist? Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And you didn't ask any questions of her...what the problem was or anything like that? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Det. Sudler: Have you ever been asked to assist like this? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: I...I guess we can get back into the room of... Det. Sudler: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: You know...you described the room to us again and what you believe was 20 something. You don't remember exactly. Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: And...and that's fair. I mean...I understand it's been a while. Uh...you described the room like you had...ummm...and that she was dressed in some type of long pants and...and maybe a tee shirt. Is that correct? Greenwood: Something like that...yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Alright. Umm..did she say anything...this being Lisa? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: At anytime that you were in the room? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Umm...was she complaining about anything other than PAGE 18 verbalizing...you know...you know...holding her arm or hand or leg or anything...you know...where... Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Describe how she was in the bed. Was she just very limp like...she didn't move...you know...can you describe that to us? Greenwood: Sure. She was lying on her back and apparently looking at the ceiling and breathing heavily. And that's it. There was no...no motion...no... Det. Sudler: Did Laura or Janice tell you...you know...what they thought was wrong with her? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Did anybody have any idea what was wrong with her? Greenwood: Well, I don't know that. Det. Sudler: Okay. But that...nothing that they relayed to you? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...they simply asked you to assist in taking her to a...to the hospital? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Obviously Mr. Greenwood, at one point somebody decided this is the time that we're gonna leave. Could you tell me who decided that...what was said...and...and what happened next? Greenwood: Well, I was...when I was asked to go over, it was to take her to the hospital. So as soon as we got her in the car, we took her. I mean...that was basically it. A decision...I don't know. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Uh...let's say you're standing in the room with I believe you said it was Laura... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Did Janice at one point arrive there with a vehicle? Greenwood: Yes. She was out on the curb with...with the vehicle. PAGE 19 Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And the curb...if...if I can bring your focus to that...if..if I remember it right, Osceola...there's a curb and then I believe there's a fence... Greenwood: Brick I think...brick or wire. Sgt. Teunis: There's some type of fencing there... Greenwood: Something. Sgt. Teunis: Between the caba...cabanas and Osceola. Is that correct? Greenwood: That's correct. Sgt. Teunis: Umm...and she parked along that... Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: Curb line there? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: On Osceola? Greenwood: In front of the...that gate that goes out from that area, right. Sgt. Teunis: Alright. Greenwood: Onto the street. Sgt. Teunis: When she came in...this being Janice... Greenwood: When she came in? Sgt. Teunis: To the room... Greenwood: I don't recall that she did. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...how...how did you become aware that she was out there then? Greenwood: The security guard told us she was there. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And it was...was it at that point then you all left? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Tell us what you did and...and what you remember Laura doing at that point. Greenwood: We got Lisa...picked...we picked up Lisa and took her out and put her in the car...in the back seat. And it was a van...one of these mini vans. And we PAGE 20 got in the back seat. Det. Sudler: So Lisa wasn't able to.... Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Walk on her own? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Did you ask her that or was she able to communicate? Greenwood: No. She wasn't communicating. Det. Sudler: Okay. So she did...did people actually ask her questions and she didn't respond or she just wasn't communicating? Greenwood: No, we didn't talk. See, one of the things in Scientology, when someone is sick or injured you don't talk around them because of what it..it puts impressions in the mind which create things in the late...you know...later on. So, under those circumstances you don't talk. If you talk, you talk away and then you go back and do what you do. So, in all the time that we were actually working with Lisa, we never talked. Sgt. Teunis: Impressions in whose mind? Greenwood: In the...in the person's mind that's not like full faculties. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So in this case Lisa? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: So you purposely didn't talk around Lisa? Greenwood: Exactly. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...did you at any point...you know...walk away from Lisa to communicate with Laura? Greenwood: Well no, because once we got...she came out of the room...we decided what we were gonna do. We went in, picked her up, and took her. And that was it. Det. Sudler: How long were you in the room? PAGE 21 Greenwood: I don't know...less...probably under five minutes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Just a short time. I...I didn't pay any attention to that. Det. Sudler: Would it also be part of the...you know...sick or injured person not to communicate with I guess caregivers or any...? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Just the caregivers themselves? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Would not directly communicate. Greenwood: Right. No, if you're asked a question by someone, that's different. That means that's everything's cool and will be alright. But when they're not doing that...when they're not originating, then you don't. Like...you know...that's just the way you do it. Det. Sudler: Okay. So it would not necessarily have been Lisa's...you know...choice not to communicate. Or was it the fact that she was too ill to communicate? Greenwood: I don't know. She just didn't. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: And because she didn't initiate, you didn't respond. Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Umm...so you basically lifted her with the assistance of Laura? Greenwood: With Laura...yes. Det. Sudler: With Laura...okay. Umm...she couldn't get up on her own? Greenwood: I don't know. Det. Sudler: That wasn't communicated to you? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: She just... PAGE 22 Greenwood: We just helped...got her up... Det. Sudler: Just helped her? Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Alright. And you carried her to Janice's van? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...was there any communication at that point once you all got into the van about where you were going? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Her condition or anything? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Mr. Greenwood, did you physically pick her up or did both you and Laura do that or...? Greenwood: Both Laura and I. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Can...can you describe how that was done? Did you like pick her up? Greenwood: Just picked her up...yeah...one on one end and one on the other...just picked her up. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Do you remember what end that you picked up by chance? Greenwood: I was the heavy end with the head. Sgt. Teunis: The head area. So she would be at the feet area? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: That'd be Laura? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: And then you would take the head and you walked out that way? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Det. Sudler: Did you notice anything on her body...any rashes or unusual marks..blemishes? Greenwood: One hand or the other...I don't remember which...had some bruises on it. That's all I noticed. PAGE 23 Det. Sudler: Okay. Anything on her arms or face? Greenwood: I didn't notice. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...did...was there any evidence of injury or anything like that...you know...did she moan like she... Greenwood: Didn't seem to be. Det. Sudler: Had been hurt or anything when you picked her up? Greenwood: No, just the breathing. Det. Sudler: Just the...the breathing just got... Greenwood: Got heavier...yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...the bruise...you don't recall what hand? Greenwood: No, not exactly. Det. Sudler: Just one of her hands? Greenwood: One of them. Maybe the one that I was next to, which would be the right one. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: But I don't re...I don't really remember. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...so back at the van, there was no communication about where you were going? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. You...so you believe that it was pretty much I guess planned before you'd arrived there? Greenwood: Must've been because nothing was said while I was there. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...what was the seating arrangement in the van? Greenwood: Janice was driving. Laura was on the back left and I was on the back right and Lisa was in the middle. Det. Sudler: Okay. And Lisa made no comments or statements? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. PAGE 24 Sgt. Teunis: What's the back left back right mean? Greenwood: The back seat. Sgt. Teunis: This is a mini van, right? Greenwood: Yeah. There's three seats. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: Well, actually two in the front, one in...one in the middle, and then the wide one in the back. We moved the... Sgt. Teunis: One being like a double seat in the middle? Greenwood: I think... Sgt. Teunis: They're all different...you know. You have like bucket seats a lot of times in the front. And then in the back you could have like one bench seat. Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: Is that what type it was? Greenwood: That's what it was...right. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And then in the back of course there's probably one that goes across the back. Greenwood: Clear across the back, right. We were on that one. We had the front...the middle one forward I think...seems like it was laid down. I don't remember that. But anyway, we had it forward so we'd have some room...the middle seat. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And you think maybe the back of that...the back rest of that was laying down? Greenwood: I don't... Sgt. Teunis: You don't remember? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: And there was no conversation between anybody in the car? Greenwood: None. Det. Sudler: Laura's breathing still continued heavily? Greenwood: Uh Huh. PAGE 25 Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Is that...again...again we don't understand Scientology that well, but is that again you didn't speak in the presence of her? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Because of your belief? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Det. Sudler: Were you instructed to do that or it's just common knowledge? Greenwood: No, that's just common knowledge. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: It's like if a child gets hurt, you don't talk until the child is through crying, etc., etc. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: And then when they can originate, then you can talk to them. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: How do you communicate with somebody though when they're ill though if they can't respond back and you don't ask questions? Greenwood: I don't know..I don't...I don't...I'm not in that position. Sgt. Teunis: I guess...well, I guess I'm just asking you from your own knowledge of your own belief... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: You know...if...you know...if you and I were together...I was very ill and I'm not able to communicate...you as my friend...how would you ever communicate with me to ask me...you know.."Do you need an aspirin...do you need this...do you..." I...I'm trying to get an understanding what's going on. PAGE 26 Greenwood: Okay. Now that would be a little different. That'd be like finding out something about you okay versus talking about you. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So you could...in..in the case if when you went in to see Lisa...you could ask her a question uh...such as "Does your arm hurt?" Greenwood: Well, I wouldn't do that because that wouldn't be something that I would do...you know what I mean. I'm not in a position of taking care of someone...you know. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. I'm just trying to get...you mentioned to me that..that the scenario that I gave you was a little bit different. You're not talking about me... Greenwood: But... Sgt. Teunis: But you're talking to me. Greenwood: Okay. Let me give you an example. If I were a surgeon or somebody was a surgeon that had somebody under anesthetic or doing an operation, they would not talk all through the surgery until that person came totally conscious again. Then they could talk. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: So you would do things...sign language...whatever... Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: Rather than talk. Sgt. Teunis: So there's other ways of communicating. Greenwood: Exactly. Sgt. Teunis: Without verbalizing in front of the person. Greenwood: Exactly. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. But again going back to my scenario where you and I are friends... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: And...and I'm ill and I can't speak. Greenwood: Uh Huh. PAGE 27 Sgt. Teunis: Do...is there any way that you can communicate to me to ask me what my problem is or if I'm feeling pain or...you know what I'm trying to get at? Greenwood: Yeah. I don't know. I haven't...I've never been confronted with that one. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Det. Sudler: Would...you mentioned that Laura was the Medical Liaison Officer. Is that correct? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: What would her job be in terms of...of dealing with...you know...a sick or injured person? Greenwood: Well, she's a Medical Liaison Officer for staff...for the staff. And basically what a Liaison Officer does is...is a point where staff can come in that aren't feeling well..that are sick...that have been injured. And then she would say "Yes, you need to go see this doctor or this doctor" or whatever. Det. Sudler: Okay...a hospital... Greenwood: It's a referral...yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...would she have been called in at Lisa's request or at somebody else's request? Greenwood: I have no idea. Det. Sudler: Okay. But in the process...I mean...what...you know...would...would you go directly to the Medical Liaison Officer yourself or would you be referred to that by somebody else...your supervisor or something like that? Greenwood: Uh...if...like if I broke a leg or something? Yeah...I would go to the Medical Liaison Office and then they would make sure that I got to the proper whatever. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm... Greenwood: Like go to the hospital or clinic or something. PAGE 28 Det. Sudler: Did...does...is this part of the Medical Liaison Office... TAPE ONE - SIDE TWO Det. Sudler: This is gonna be a continuation of the interview on Side B. The time is 9:43 a.m. Uh... continuing with Mr. Greenwood, umm...we were talking about the Medical Liaison Officer position and how I guess that someone would go to them for referral to I guess a doctor for a health problem. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Umm...is...is part of that...like I said, is there an assessment that's done by that individual as to...you know...whether or not they would recommend...you know...emergency care or specialized care. And...and what does the Medical Liaison Officer have to have? I mean..is that a job that anybody could do? Greenwood: Anybody. Det. Sudler: Okay. It doesn't require any medical background? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Alright. Greenwood: To help with the obvious stuff. Det. Sudler: Okay. So...but how did they...how do they get the information for the referrals not being... Greenwood: The person goes to the office. Det. Sudler: Okay. But if I was a Medical...or you were a Medical Liaison Officer and somebody had an earache, do they know an Ear, Nose, & Throat Specialist in the area? What type of training would they get so that they would know who to call? Greenwood: I don't know. I think they send them to like the PAGE 29 Walk-In Clinic. Det. Sudler: Oh, okay. For just... Greenwood: For just about anything. Det. Sudler: About anything...okay. Umm...the Walk-In Clinic here in Clearwater...locally. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Where...where at...which one? Greenwood: Uh...I think they send them mostly...I don't know...I think there's several. But the last one..the one I'm aware of is the one on..let's see...Cleveland and Belcher. Sgt. Teunis: Belcher? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: So they would routinely refer people out but not specifically to...you know...specialists? They would just go to a...a central receiving...like that... Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Like an emergency room. Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: How about Morton Plant? Have they ever gone there? Anybody that you're aware of? Greenwood: I don't know. Sgt. Teunis: Have you ever actually gone to see the Medical Liaison Officer? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: For anything? Greenwood: No. I don't get sick. Det. Sudler: Okay. How many...is that one person or is there a staff for the Medical Liaison? Greenwood: There's a staff. PAGE 30 Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Administrative staff and what have you. Det. Sudler: Would Janice also be a Medical Liaison Officer...Janice Johnson? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: She's not? Greenwood: Not now...no. Det. Sudler: Okay. Was she then at the time? Greenwood: I think so. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...was she in charge or did she have a different position? Greenwood: I don't know. Det. Sudler: You don't know? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Would her and Laura be the same on... Greenwood: Probably. I don't know. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Is...is she not involved in it now? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Uh...do you know why? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: That...that being Jan...Janice, right? Greenwood: Janice...yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. You don't...what is she doing? Do you have an idea right now? Greenwood: Uh...she's actually working as a word clearer. Sgt. Teunis: A word cleared? Greenwood: A word clearer. Sgt. Teunis: A word clearer. Greenwood: A word clearer. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And what is that? Greenwood: Okay...when you're studying, there's barriers to understanding what you're studying. And one of PAGE 31 them is misunderstanding what a word means. And when people go past a word they don't understand, there are physical manifestations that are...you know...you get dizzy...you..whatever...you blank out...you don't understand what you're reading. So if you've ever read something and then you try to remember what you just read and you can't, it just means you went by a word you didn't understand. And what is her job is to help people find those words. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...is...is it often in Scientology that you switch different job functions? Greenwood: Oh yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Since you have been...how long have you been in Scientology? Greenwood: I've been here on the base for a year. Sgt. Teunis: How about in Scientology altogether? Greenwood: Since...oh, maybe ten years. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Have you been a staff person for that period of time? Greenwood: No. This is the first time. Sgt. Teunis: This year has been a staff person? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Am...am I saying that correct? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...have you held any other jobs other than the one that you...you hold now as a staff person? Greenwood: Uh...let's see...well, I was a full-time student, which is one...one job. Then I took this..well, like...this one has like four different..I've taken about three...actually what I do is I just take on more responsibility in the same job so PAGE 32 far. Sgt. Teunis: Full-time student in the Church of Scientology? Greenwood: Yes. Sgt. Teunis: Okay..alright. You want to get into traveling up? Det. Sudler: Yeah...yeah. Umm...I think that pretty much clears what the Medical Liaison does. Now...unfortunately, Janice isn't here, but I understand she was a retired M.D. Greenwood: No, I don't know much about her. Det. Sudler: You don't know...you don't know Janice? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Well, I know her but...you know...as a Scientologist,...not past stuff. Det. Sudler: Okay. What about Laura? Did...did she have a medical degree? Greenwood: That I don't know. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Do you know where Laura's at? Greenwood: She's having some family thing in Mexico. Sgt. Teunis: A family thing? Greenwood: Yeah. I don't know what. Sgt. Teunis: Like a crisis? Greenwood: I don't know. She's just in Mexico. Sgt. Teunis: Would she be back...do you know? Greenwood: We certainly hope so. I don't know what..what the situation is. Det. Sudler: Who's filling in for her? Greenwood: Uh...the...the existing staff just taking on double duty. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Who would know uh...where Laura would be or when she would be back? PAGE 33 Greenwood: I have no idea...I really don't. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Det. Sudler: She didn't have any...did...did she have a supervisor over the...would...would A.J. be her supervisor over the MLO's? Greenwood: Uh...yeah, she's...well, not a supervisor. She's a department head and then each of these sections are under her. So I don't know who's in charge. Det. Sudler: Who would Laura...or the MLO position...answer to? Greenwood: It'd be A.J. Det. Sudler: Oh...A.J..okay...alright. Umm...she may be able to provide more. Greenwood: I don't know. Could be. Det. Sudler: Where can A.J. be contacted at? Greenwood: At the Church. Det. Sudler: At the Church...okay. Umm...going back to where everybody's in the van and...and the seating arrangements... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Umm...no verbal communication was made by anybody in the van? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: What about any written communication or other communication? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...so Janice was driving and it was Janice's van? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: That's a yes? Greenwood: Yes...Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...so at this point you really didn't know where you were going? Greenwood: I didn't have a clue. PAGE 34 Det. Sudler: Okay. You're just along for the ride? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Alright. Describe what happened from that point. Greenwood: We drove down...what was it...Gulf To Bay to the freeway...what would it be...19...I guess it's 19. And then turned left and went up 19. Det. Sudler: Okay. Where was your final destination? Greenwood: At a hospital someplace north. Det. Sudler: North. You don't remember the name of the hospital? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: How long did it take you to get from the cabanas to that hospital? Greenwood: Oh, I don't know...thirty minutes...forty minutes...something like that. Det. Sudler: Okay. What was Lisa's condition during the..during this time? Greenwood: Well, for about halfway it was pretty much the same. And then the breathing got very very soft. Det. Sudler: Okay. Soft as in... Greenwood: You couldn't hear it. Det. Sudler: You couldn't hear it? Greenwood: Right. It went from the very noisy breathing to very soft. Det. Sudler: Could you tell if she was breathing at all? Greenwood: She was. Det. Sudler: She...she did have respirations.. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: But they weren't as heavy. Greenwood: Very soft. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...was she still conscious? Greenwood: I...I don't know. Her eyes were open. Det. Sudler: Her eyes were open? Greenwood: Yeah. PAGE 35 Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: And she was breathing softly and that was just what she did. Det. Sudler: The entire... Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: The entire trip her eyes were open? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Umm...what happened upon arriving at the hospital? Greenwood: Well, we went...Janice went in and got somebody at the front desk. And they sent out...let's see..a woman came out...a nurse or somebody. And then she sent for two guys and a wheelchair. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: And then they put...the two guys put Lisa in the wheelchair and took her into the Emergency Room. Det. Sudler: Now, was Lisa still conscious at this time? Greenwood: That I don't know. Det. Sudler: Okay. Was...was her eyes open? Greenwood: They were still open. Det. Sudler: Was she breathing? Greenwood: Couldn't hear it. Det. Sudler: Couldn't hear it? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Did...did you see it? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: You didn't see her chest rise? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: But when you arrived at the hospital, her chest was rising and falling? Greenwood: That I don't know. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: I'm just...you know...I didn't notice that. Det. Sudler: Umm...what was Laura doing during the transport PAGE 36 up there? Greenwood: Just sitting in the seat holding Lisa on her sh...you know...Lisa was leaning on her shoulder...with her arm around her. Det. Sudler: Okay. Did Laura umm...check her pulse or...or time her respirations or do anything? Greenwood: Most of the time she was just stroking her forehead. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...did there ever appear a time when Lisa was not breathing and may have needed assistance with...with that? Greenwood: About halfway when she...the heavy breathing stopped...from that point on it got softer to probably...well, I don't know probably ..umm...it was like there was no visible or things...way we could tell when she was breathing by the time we got there. Det. Sudler: Okay. Did Laura check her pulse or do anything like that? Greenwood: I was monitoring her pulse on her right arm. And I monitored it for a while and it got softer and softer and softer until I couldn't tell. And with the movement of the car, I couldn't tell. Det. Sudler: Okay. So at..at what point did you start to monitor her pulse? Greenwood: Actually, about when her breathing got very soft. Det. Sudler: Okay. So you didn't do it initially when you left? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...it was sometime during the trip. Greenwood: The trip...probably halfway. Det. Sudler: About halfway? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: So, in response to her breathing becoming shallow and soft, you...you checked the pulse in her wrist? Greenwood: Uh Huh. PAGE 37 Det. Sudler: Umm...do you recall what it was at that time? Greenwood: Oh, I didn't count. I was just seeing if there was any.. Det. Sudler: You were just seeing if there was any. Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Just the palpable strength of it? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Was it rapid...was it slow? Greenwood: Very slow. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...at one point that basically drifted off to the point where you couldn't feel...feel it anymore? Greenwood: I couldn't feel any appreciable pulse. Det. Sudler: Okay. Was that umm...I guess...communicated in any way to Laura or Janice? Greenwood: Umm...by...by sign I said I just couldn't...couldn't feel it anymore. Det. Sudler: How... Greenwood: I indicated... Det. Sudler: How so? Greenwood: Well, I just indicated...you know...got her attention and motioned to her that I couldn't feel the pulse. And she was doing the same here at that time. Det. Sudler: And this is Laura? Greenwood: Laura. Det. Sudler: You motioned to? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. What was Laura's response to that? Greenwood: Umm...in agreement. It was the same thing that she noticed. Det. Sudler: Did Laura try to check the pulse? Greenwood: Well, she was checking the carotid here. Det. Sudler: The carotid? PAGE 38 Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Did she indicate she couldn't find one either? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: So Laura couldn't find one either? Greenwood: That...that was just like maybe five minutes before we got there. Det. Sudler: Okay. How...what...what happened at that point? Did...did Laura try any resuscitative measures? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Was anything communicated to Janice....you know..upgrading...you know...the condition...you know...the urgency to get her to a hospital at this point? Greenwood: No, she was boogying right along. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...so from that point when Laura and you couldn't feel the pulse, how long did it take to arrive at the hospital? Greenwood: Hmmm...I'd say maybe five minutes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm... Greenwood: You know...that's...that's just a guess. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: There was some time but it wasn't a long time. Det. Sudler: Umm...and again...during this there was no verbal communication in the car? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Umm...did you assist in removing her from the van at anytime? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: It was just the hospital personnel that took her out of the van? Greenwood: Yes. PAGE 39 Det. Sudler: Alright. What happened at that point? Greenwood: What happened when she... Det. Sudler: Yeah, after she was taken out of the van. Greenwood: Oh, they put her in the wheelchair and took her into the Emergency Room. Det. Sudler: Okay. Uh...did you have any further contact with Lisa that evening? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...I take it now there was probably a discussion between Janice and Laura and... Greenwood: Actually...let's see...one of the two...probably...well, I don't know...one of the two went into...no...somebody came out and wanted to know the particulars about Lisa...you know...name, address, social security, etc. And what we had was her name and we didn't know...none of us knew exactly where she lived. Det. Sudler: Did any of the admitting personnel at the hospital talk to Laura or Janice in your presence or you for that matter about symptoms that Lisa had or her condition during transport? Greenwood: One of the Emergency Room people came out...what did they want to know...let's see...basically they wanted to know the paperwork data...you know...the fill in the form data...you know...her name, address, etc., nearest of kin...that sort of stuff. And we didn't have any of that...driver's license...anything. Det. Sudler: Was this clerical or...or medical personnel? Do you know? Greenwood: No, I don't know. Somebody wearing white if I remember right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Did they...did anybody ask you about her condition? PAGE 40 Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: No specific questions? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Did you hear anybody ask Laura or Janice about it? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Umm...did Janice have any conversation with any medical people there that you're aware of? Greenwood: I don't know. I took the car and parked it and then stayed with the car. Det. Sudler: Okay. And then Laura and Janice remained at the hospital? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...at what point did you become aware that Lisa had died that evening? Greenwood: Probably when they came back to the car. Det. Sudler: Okay. Do you...do you recall that? Greenwood: Must've been...that's the...that's the next time I saw them. Det. Sudler: Do you remember what was said? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: How long did it take them before they came back to you? How long were you waiting? Greenwood: God, it seemed like a long time. Probably an hour...maybe not quite that but 45 minutes to an hour. Det. Sudler: Okay. There had been a concern that she had possibly had meningitis. Was that ever communicated to you? Greenwood: Not in...let's see...not specifically...probably like maybe Janice said something in the car that seemed like it could've been or something like that. I don't know but nothing... Det. Sudler: Okay. It would've...I mean...to me there would be a safety concern...you know...with meningitis. PAGE 41 Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: And if Laura and Janice were aware of this, I'm...you know...I'm just assuming that they would've communicated that to you. Greenwood: I think... Det. Sudler: Do you recall anything specific about that...about any precautions that you should take? Greenwood: I think that they were just talking about...or Janice made...made some comment that it could've been something like that. Det. Sudler: Okay. And this was in the car? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: At what point? Greenwood: On our way back. Det. Sudler: On the way back? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Okay. Were you instructed to do anything to monitor your own health at that point? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...what did...what did Janice talk about on the way back? Greenwood: Not much actually. Det. Sudler: Okay. But out...out of the not much, what..what did she say? Greenwood: I don't recall. It was just talk. Det. Sudler: Uh...about Lisa's condition? Greenwood: No, not really...just...it was such...you know..that's not the...a thing that one goes through everyday. So we were actually trying to steer away from it and be a little more up- tone...so kinda like small talk. Det. Sudler: But there was a discussion about the possible meningitis? PAGE 42 Greenwood: Yes, she mentioned something about that. Det. Sudler: Why did she feel that? Greenwood: I have no idea. Det. Sudler: And that was Janice or...or Laura. Did they discuss anything? Greenwood: No. Laura has...Laura speaks spanish well and english poorly. And so...you know. Det. Sudler: Umm...when you got back to Clearwater...umm...did you do anything more at Lisa's room or anything like that? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Help gather her personal things? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Do you know whatever happened to her personal things? Greenwood: I have no idea. Det. Sudler: Umm...what did you do when you arrived back? Greenwood: Went...I actually went back to my room Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Hacienda Det. Sudler: Alright. Umm...have you ever...have you discussed this with anybody since that? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Mr. Greenwood, let me ask you a question. And again, I only base it on my experience here at the City of Clearwater and other businesses we've dealt with...with. Normally when something like this would happen, there would be some type of documentation. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Reflecting what happened. By us that might involved in something similar to this. Do you all have a similar type way of doing business in the Church of Scientology of documenting what you did or what Janice did or Laura and so on? PAGE 43 Greenwood: Actually, I wrote up exactly what occurred, which is exactly what we're discussing now. Sgt. Teunis: When did you do that? Greenwood: I believe it was the next day I think...yeah, it was the next day. Sgt. Teunis: Umm...if you remember back when Det. Sudler and I spoke to you briefly... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: On Cleveland Street. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Was it before that or after that did you document in a written form what happened? Do you remember? Greenwood: When did I talk to you? Sgt. Teunis: Ron, do you remember exactly the date that was? Det. Sudler: 12/6/95 at around 3:30 in the afternoon over at the... Greenwood: Yeah, but what relative? Det. Sudler: The Clearwater building? Greenwood: No..no..no..no. Sgt. Teunis: Relative to when this incident happened. Greenwood: To the time...yeah. Det. Sudler: The next day. It would've been umm...the evening of the 5th...was when she was taken to the hospital. This would've been umm...that following afternoon that we talked. Greenwood: Would've been before. Sgt. Teunis: Is that something automatic Mr. Greenwood or did somebody ask you to document that? Greenwood: I don't know...I don't know. I'm..I'm new at this. Sgt. Teunis: You don't know... Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: How you came about to write this? Greenwood: Well, I was asked to. PAGE 44 Sgt. Teunis: Okay. By whom? Greenwood: That I don't recall. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Would it be your supervisor? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Would it be Mr. Anderson? Greenwood: I really don't know. I was just asked to do it, so I wrote up just the events that I was involved in. Sgt. Teunis: So if somebody asked you to write the events down on paper... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And you submitted that to whoever this person was? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: And you don't remember who that was? Greenwood: No, I don't. Sgt. Teunis: And what kind of paper was that on? Greenwood: Just regular paper. Sgt. Teunis: Regular lined sheet of paper? Greenwood: No, not lined. Sgt. Teunis: I'm sorry. Greenwood: Not lined...just paper. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Is...is it something like...I...I guess what I'm trying to get at...like we have memorandums here... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: That something like this we would document in a memorandum Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Via our chain of command. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Through the Chief of Police. Is that similar to what you may have done in this case? PAGE 45 Greenwood: No. It was just so that I could...wouldn't forget anything...you know...just to get all the data down that occurred. Sgt. Teunis: Uh Huh. Greenwood: And that's all...just on a blank piece of paper. Sgt. Teunis: Do you know where that paper may have gone? Greenwood: No idea. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So you turned that in and you...you don't remember to who? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: But you did turn it in? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Did you by chance make a copy of it? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Is everything basically you're telling us today was reflected in that documentation? Greenwood: Exactly. Sgt. Teunis: And you again believe that it was just before our discussion back on the 6th...right? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: 6th...5th...this was the 5th...in like early morning or something like that. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Real quick...and...and I know yall want to get out of here. But when you came in a year ago, I guess you came to Clearwater. Correct? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: As a staff person? Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: When you come here, do you apply for positions? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Do they just give you positions based on what you do and so on? PAGE 46 Greenwood: Well, when you come here, you come here to do whatever is needed. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...when you come to Clearwater, is there something you write down with your background? When you get into Scientology, do you have to submit a resume...a...a background on yourself? Greenwood: Well, you just write up what you've done...where you've been. Sgt. Teunis: Your background. Greenwood: Sure. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So that...is that documented in a...a resume type format or a....(are we still running Ron?) Det. Sudler: INAUDIBLE Sgt. Teunis: How is that documented? Greenwood: Just like a case history. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Uh...and that would probably be kept in a file of yours somewhere? Greenwood: Oh, more than likely..yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...do you have an opportunity to review your...your file...your personal file? Greenwood: I've never seen it. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So you really don't know what's in your file? Greenwood: No. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Do you know if the other persons involved...being Janice and Laura...documented their involvement on paper? Greenwood: That I don't know. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. When somebody approached you and asked you to write this, do you know where you were? Greenwood: She dropped me off at my car...where was that...no...I wasn't driving then...no...I don't remember. Sgt. Teunis: If you find out, either by your own remembering or by somebody else, who you gave that paper to, can PAGE 47 you let us know? Greenwood: Sure. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...anything else? Det. Sudler: Yeah. Umm...was Lisa on staff with the Church? Greenwood: I have no idea. I had never met her. Det. Sudler: Okay. Was...well, the cabanas...was that her residence here? Greenwood: Well, that's...was it her residence? No. It's...well, that I don't know. There's nobody that lives there other than temporary. Det. Sudler: Do you know why she was there...what the purpose of her stay was? Greenwood: Not at all. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: You're in charge of training I think you mentioned. Greenwood: Staff...right. Sgt. Teunis: Staff. Have you ever aligned any training or...for Lisa? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: You'd never met Lisa before this? Greenwood: I'd never met her before. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...were you aware that she had been in an automobile accident prior to this? Greenwood: No. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...during our interviews, Lisa had mentioned uh to some people that uh...and I...I don't know what this term is and I...I'm hoping that you can clarify it...that she had taken her eye off the object and that...you know...she was having some problems. Greenwood: I don't...I...wait a minute...say that again. Det. Sudler: She...she took her eyes off the object. Greenwood: Who? PAGE 48 Det. Sudler: Lisa. Greenwood: I don't know what...I don't know what you mean. Det. Sudler: Okay. That wouldn't be a term? Greenwood: Eyes off the object. Det. Sudler: Yeah. Greenwood: Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...what...she also...you know..referred...you know...in interviews.. Greenwood: Who referred? Det. Sudler: Lisa had...had told an individual that she was an OT. Greenwood: Oh. Det. Sudler: Is that a familiar...? Greenwood: OT? Det. Sudler: Yeah, I know that. Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: What is that? Greenwood: Operating Thetan. Det. Sudler: You still lost me. Greenwood: I don't really know because I am not at that level. I just have heard the term. Det. Sudler: Okay. It's a level in the...in the... Greenwood: Right. A level like I guess you'd say spiritual awareness. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Is it based on training? You reach certain levels? Greenwood: Well, I don't know. It's partially I suppose...I don't know. I really don't know...I haven't...you don't find out those things until you do them. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So you just...you con...continue the way you are and... Greenwood: You keep going.. Sgt. Teunis: Until somebody says "You're gonna change now". PAGE 49 Greenwood: "Now you do this" and "Now you do this"...yeah. Det. Sudler: But this is something obtainable to anybody? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: Through I guess training? Greenwood: Uh...I suppose there's some so you know what's going on so that you can do whatever it is you do. But I don't know...you know...you do all this with auditing... Det. Sudler: Okay. Would this be...would it be relevant to time ...I mean...is this something that you could do quickly in the organization or would this take like a period of years? Let's say a rank hierarchy or something like that...spiritually...you know. Greenwood: Well, it usually takes time...yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. I'm just curious... Greenwood: Over a long period of time. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: Some of them are quick...some are slow...you know...I don't know. It's like training. Sgt. Teunis: When...when you're ill or sick or hurt, is there assign...somebody assigned to you as a caseworker or a caretaker or...for an example...like are you aware of Hospice? Greenwood: Oh, not much. Sgt. Teunis: If...if you're very ill...terminal..you know...Hospice would come in and take care of you, okay. Greenwood: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: In..in the Church of Scientology, is there such a person that would do that if you were ill that would watch over you and...and look out for you? Greenwood: Not that I'm aware of. Sgt. Teunis: Not that you're aware of? Greenwood: No. PAGE 50 Sgt. Teunis: You've never been ill or seen anybody ill to know that, right? Greenwood: Well...you know...they go to their room...they stay there and maybe somebody will go by and check and make sure they're alright...get them foot..water...whatever. But as far as anything other than that, I'm not aware of anything. Det. Sudler: Do the...I...parishioners or....you know...students...do they have like a spiritual counselor or a supervisor that...that they report to on their progress in the Church or something like that? Greenwood: Okay. You said students and then you said parishioners. Det. Sudler: Or...well, I don't know. For lack of a better term. Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: I don't know what you...what...what your question is. Det. Sudler: Okay. Do they..would...let's say would Lisa have a supervisor over..over her and her spiritual...you know...counseling or training that... Greenwood: I...you know...I don't know anything about Lisa's particular situation..if she was...what...anything about her actually...uh... Det. Sudler: Well, do you... TAPE TWO - SIDE ONE Det. Sudler: This is a continuation of the interview with Paul Greenwood on April the 9th. Starting a new tape. The time is now 10:16 a.m. Umm...sorry for the brief interruption due to the end of the tape. Uh...Mr. PAGE 51 Greenwood...umm...I don't know where we dropped off. Umm...one thing that I...I wanted to go back over is you...there...there was no specific reason why you were asked to assist her? You were just probably the luck of the draw I guess...you were the...you...you were there... Greenwood: I was there. Det. Sudler: Umm....and you were just basically in her room briefly and then assisted in the ride up to the hospital? Greenwood: Exactly. Det. Sudler: Umm...and you don't why Lisa had been...been there or if she was...are those like basic...are they quarters for umm... Greenwood: For the parish... Det. Sudler: The...for parishioners that come in. Greenwood: For parishioners when they come in...yeah. Det. Sudler: From out of town? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Would Lisa be over there taking courses that would require her to overnight? Greenwood: Uh... Det. Sudler: You know...or anything? Greenwood: It would be total speculation on my part. I really don't know. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...when you were in the room, did it look like she had been there for a while? Greenwood: Not particularly. Det. Sudler: Okay. Well... Greenwood: No...if it's... Det. Sudler: Was the room lived in? Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: The...the beds...were they made or unmade? PAGE 52 Greenwood: Yes...made. Det. Sudler: Both beds were made? Greenwood: Yes. Det. Sudler: So she was lying on a...on a made bed? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...and her personal effects were out? Greenwood: Some...well, some of them were visible. Det. Sudler: Okay. Umm...but could you tell...you know...at all like the length that she'd been there? Did it look like she'd been living there for a while or...? Greenwood: No idea. Det. Sudler: Okay. Alright. But the beds were made and the room I guess was fairly neat? Greenwood: It was presentable...yeah...you know. Det. Sudler: Umm... Greenwood: You know how people's rooms are. Det. Sudler: Okay. Would it be safe to say that this is kinda set up like a hotel room? Greenwood: For the most part...yeah. Det. Sudler: Okay. Is there a TV in there or...? Greenwood: I didn't see one. Det. Sudler: Just a..a dresser and the two beds and a...a bathroom. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Det. Sudler: Okay. Sgt. Teunis: Umm...when...when you spoke to us Mr. Greenwood about it's a Scientology belief that you don't talk in the presence of someone like that that's ill... Det. Sudler: Right. Sgt. Teunis: Is it also the belief of Scientology that uh...uh...would they be allowed to watch TV and that sort of thing when they're ill? PAGE 53 Greenwood: Oh. Well...uh...when they're ill. Actually that would be a matter of personal choice. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. But...alright, so it's personal choice. The Church of Scientology doesn't believe that, when you're ill like that, you can't watch TV or listen to music? Greenwood: Not that I'm aware of...no. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. It's just your understanding that, on your side of that, you would not talk in the presence? Greenwood: Exactly. Det. Sudler: Umm...and I apologize for...you know..ignorance of the topic or whatever, but is there a term for that? Umm...like vow of silence or something or is there a...is there a particular procedure or term for that? Greenwood: No. It's just a recognition of what happens if you do. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: To the mind. Det. Sudler: Now, is that taught to you in...in courses or...? Greenwood: Umm...actually we are just told that. And then when you do auditing yourself, you become very much aware of the effects of someone talking to someone that's ill because you've experienced it yourself. Det. Sudler: Okay. Greenwood: And then you expect...you...you experience the umm...you understand why you don't. So therefore you don't. It's not a matter of don't do this. It's a matter of you understand why so there...then you don't. Det. Sudler: So, in further interviews that we may conduct, there's nothing specifically that we can refer to for this non-communication status? Greenwood: No...it's just...I wouldn't know what you're talking about...yeah. PAGE 54 Det. Sudler: Okay. So you...so anybody wouldn't know. Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: We won't come across as not knowing what we're talking about? Greenwood: Right. Det. Sudler: Alright. I just wanted to clarify that. Greenwood: Yeah. Det. Sudler: Umm... Sgt. Teunis: You mentioned...a couple of questions we asked you...and...and you said that you really didn't know the answer to many of those. And I can understand that. Is there a person in the Church of Scientology that has an overall understanding of everything that goes on or is it all individual? Greenwood: Well, what one does on a post is you do your post. You don't pay much attention to the other guy's...whatever he does. You know what I mean by post...your job. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Greenwood: You don't...I don't pay much attention to what somebody else does because I put my attention on what I'm supposed to be doing. So...you know...if there's someone that knows...you know...it...it would be done by statistics. We keep statistics on what we do and the next guy keeps statistics and then those statistics filter up. And from those statistics someone up on the upper management levels would know what was going on relative to that. You...you understand? Sgt. Teunis: Yes. Greenwood: So...I mean...that's how it would be done. Sgt. Teunis: Can you tell me your understanding into how that ladder of management goes? PAGE 55 Greenwood: Oh, it's just like any business...you know. You'd start with a Chairman Of The Board and go downwards from there. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. What...alright...what is the top level in the Church of Scientology? Greenwood: I guess...I guess it'd be Chairman Of The Board. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And do you know who that is? Greenwood: Umm...David Muskavich. I don't much about... Sgt. Teunis: Muskavich? Greenwood: Yeah...he's...there's nobody...there's nobody here. It's like an international management thing. Sgt. Teunis: So this... Greenwood: It wouldn't be here in Clearwater...not at all. Sgt. Teunis: Tell me the highest ranking person that you're aware of here in Clearwater. Greenwood: In the FSO it's the Captain. Sgt. Teunis: The Captain? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And who might that be? Greenwood: Debbie Cook. Sgt. Teunis: Debbie Cook? Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: And so she would oversee just about every function here in Clearwater? Greenwood: That I don't know. She does whatever a Captain does, which I don't know what a Captain does. Sgt. Teunis: Which is management. Greenwood: Yeah...it's all management. Sgt. Teunis: Well, I don't know what my captain does either, so... Det. Sudler: Umm...but he's the head of our division. Sgt. Teunis: Right. He says that he kinda runs this thing, so we just believe that, right? Greenwood: Right. PAGE 56 Sgt. Teunis: So the Captain is the management? Greenwood: Right. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And that...probably your work filters up that way, correct? Greenwood: I guess. Anything that she'd be interested in. Sgt. Teunis: Alright. And between the Captain and your level, do you know how many levels there are? Greenwood: A lot...I don't know. God...there'd be one...oh let's see...one, two, three...at least three...maybe four. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Now, the next question in line with that. This is a test. Do you know the names of those people and the ranks of those people? We got the Captain... Greenwood: We've got A.J...we've got Defalsak...we've got... Sgt. Teunis: Now, we have A.J. as who now? Greenwood: She's the Director of Personnel Enhancement. Sgt. Teunis: Over A.J. would be...? Greenwood: The Qualifications Secretary. Sgt. Teunis: Qualifications Secretary? Greenwood: Right Sgt. Teunis: Which is...? Greenwood: Kate Curly. Sgt. Teunis: Kate Curly? Greenwood: Curly. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Over Kate Curly would be...? Greenwood: I've gotta look at the board...let's see...the Chief Officer. Sgt. Teunis: Chief Officer...which would be...? Greenwood: Don Jason. Sgt. Teunis: Don Jason? Greenwood: Uh Huh...and then the Captain. Sgt. Teunis: Then the Captain? PAGE 57 Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. And anything above that would be like International... Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Board of Directors? Greenwood: Yeah...whatever. It gets...I don't know about that. Sgt. Teunis: It gets complicated above that? Greenwood: Yeah. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. Umm...do you have any communication with your chain of command? Greenwood: I have communication primarily with A.J., my direct... Sgt. Teunis: Your immediate supervisor. Greenwood: My direct supervisor. Sgt. Teunis: Is that what you would call it...supervisor? Greenwood: Yeah. Well, I call it my senior...my direct senior. Sgt. Teunis: Senior...okay, I'm sorry. Umm...but you wouldn't necessarily be able to go in and talk to the Captain? Greenwood: No, not at all. Sgt. Teunis: Well, it's hard for us to do that too. Umm...okay...I...I think I understand that now. Umm...you know...we're new in this too...you know. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: We're trying to get an understanding what the Church Of Scientology is also. Greenwood: Sure. Sgt. Teunis: We're not that familiar...so some of the questions that we pose to you and ask you is because of our ignorance and not understanding. Greenwood: Uh Huh. Sgt. Teunis: Okay. So I hope you're not offended by that. Greenwood: Not at all. Sgt. Teunis: Anything that we have... PAGE 58 Det. Sudler: No. Sgt. Teunis: Can you give us Mr. Greenwood and Mr. Johnson a couple minutes just to discuss a couple things together. We'll come back in and hopefully we'll wrap it up in just a couple minutes. Greenwood: Sure. Johnson: Is the bathroom upstairs? Sgt. Teunis: Yes. We can show you where the bathroom is. And...yall need a cup of coffee or anything? Det. Sudler: At this time, we're going to adjourn the interview. The time is now 10:26 a.m.