http://www.whyaretheydead.net/lisa_mcpherson/bob/_06_17_AM.htm

RVY about the Rinder visit:

10        Q    Did you ever -- were you ever approached by
11   Mr. Rinder after you filed declaration for Mr. Berry in the
12   Fishman case?
13        A    I was approached by Mike Rinder after the case was
14   done.  They had withdrawn their suit and the case was over.
15   And I don't recall how long after that it was that he
16   contacted me.
17        Q    The Church of Scientology dismissed its suit
18   against Mr. Fishman?
19        A    Yes.
20        Q    And where were you living when Mr. Rinder
21   contacted you?
22        A    Newport Beach, which is maybe 50 miles south of
23   Los Angeles.
24        Q    And did Mr. Rinder tell you why he wanted to see
25   you?



95
 1        A    Yeah.  He said he wanted to just work things out,
 2   you know, and settle some differences.  And could we meet
 3   and talk it over?
 4        Q    And did you meet?
 5        A    I said, "I really am not interested.  I don't have
 6   anything to work out.  No thank you," and hung up the phone.
 7        Q    What happened next?
 8        A    A couple of days later he called me again, and he
 9   made the request again, you know, saying, "Come on.  Let's
10   just work things out, sort it out here; sort out our
11   difference."  And I said, "I have got nothing to sort out,"
12   and hung up on him again.
13        Q    And then?
14        A    And then a few days later, Stacy called me.  She
15   was living in Seattle.  We had separated for a while.  She
16   wanted to just -- she was sick of the work.  You know, it
17   had been intensive.  We had been doing this for a year and a
18   half, and sometimes seven days a week.  And she wanted to
19   just get away from everything.  So she was up in Seattle,
20   and she called and said, "Mike Rinder called me.  He wants
21   to meet and just work things out."  So she urged me to do
22   it.  I said I didn't think it was a great idea, but since
23   she requested, I said, "Okay."
24             So I flew up to Seattle -- I told her, "Go ahead,
25   set up the meeting."  And I flew up to Seattle to her place,



96
 1   and we -- we met with Mike Rinder and Mike Sutter.
 2        Q    Who's Mike Sutter?
 3        A    Mike Sutter was one of Mr. Miscavige's aides.  I
 4   don't know what his position was at that time, but he was --
 5   had always been one of Mr. -- Mr. Miscavige's aides.
 6        Q    And in '94, what was Mr. Rinder's position?
 7        A    He was -- he was OSA at that time also.
 8             THE COURT:  He was what?
 9             THE WITNESS:  He was OSA at that time,
10        Department 20.
11             THE COURT:  I mean, but what?  Was he in charge
12        of it or --
13             THE WITNESS:  I believe he was, yes.
14             MR. WEINBERG:  I do take it from the last --
15             Could I ask --
16             Is it 1994?  Is that the -- circa the time
17        period that we're talking about here?
18             THE WITNESS:  Maybe -- no.  Maybe a little bit
19        later than that.  I don't recall.  I'm sorry.
20   BY MR. DANDAR:
21        Q    You mean '94 or '95 --
22        A    It was after the Fishman case was done, so -- I'm
23   trying to remember --
24             No, it wasn't '94.  It was more like '96.
25        Q    Okay.  And OSA -- Mr. Rinder being the head of



97
 1   OSA, do you know what corporation OSA was in?
 2        A    Well, the last I knew it was just part of the
 3   Church of Scientology California or International.  They
 4   could have moved it at that time.  I don't know.
 5        Q    Okay.  So what did Mr. Rinder tell you when you
 6   met with him finally?
 7        A    Well, you know, the first part of it, since we had
 8   been on opposite sides of the litigation and philosophical
 9   fence, so to speak, the front end was just social for a
10   while.  And then he just said he wanted to sort things out
11   and work things out with us.  And this was -- this went on
12   for a number of hours.
13             And I should say the meetings went -- extended
14   across six days.  And it took -- it took about -- a couple
15   of days before we got around to more what they really wanted
16   to do.
17        Q    All right.  Let me interrupt you for a minute.
18             During the six-day period of neg- -- or meeting
19   with him, were you involved in any case?
20        A    No.

(....)

99
 1        Q    All right.  Let's go back to '94.  Mr. Rinder's in
 2   Seattle.  You finally hear him as to what he wants you to
 3   do.  And what is that?
 4        A    Well, that came, finally, at the last day of the
 5   meetings.  And I can fill in the front end later if you
 6   want.
 7             But we met at their hotel, the Doubletree, which
 8   is close to the Seattle airport.  And he had two sets of
 9   documents that he wanted me to -- he wanted us to sign.  And
10   he said they were just drafts and we could talk about it.
11   And he showed us these two documents.  They were both more
12   than one page.  I don't remember how many.  One document was
13   to be private, to be used just between us, keep confidential
14   and secret, and the other one was to be able to then be used
15   publicly.
16             The secret one had an amount of money that we were
17   to be paid which came to -- I've never been able to remember
18   exactly -- some odd figure, like 280,000, 240,000.  Which
19   you can ask me or I can say later how that figure came out.
20        Q    Well, what was the money for?
21        A    The -- they wanted us -- well, this is what all
22   the documents were for.  The discussions had come up of --
23   they wanted us to get out of the consultation business.
24             During the meetings prior to that last day, they
25   said, you know, "Isn't there another line of work you'd



100
 1   really like to do?"  And they knew something about us then.
 2   They knew that I liked the Internet, you know, and desktop
 3   publishing.  I had been a writer from -- ever since the
 4   sixth grade.
 5             "Isn't there other things you'd like to do?"
 6   "Well, there are a lot of things we'd like to do."
 7             And this is how we were sort of brought along.
 8             "Wouldn't you like to travel?"  And, "What would
 9   it take to do this?  What would it take?"  "Well, if I did
10   this, I would need new computer systems."  "What would that
11   cost?"  "Oh, I don't know.  $20,000," you know.  And, "What
12   would it take for such and such or another --"  "Don't you
13   guys have some debts?"  "Yeah."  Well, how many debts have
14   you got?"  And that's how this figure came up, you know.
15   And, "How long would it take you to -- to get this going?"
16   "Oh, about five years."  "Well, what do you think you would
17   need for an annual income in that time?"  "Oh, I don't know.
18   Such and such."
19             And so this is how this odd figure, I realized
20   later, came -- came up:  That if we accepted this amount,
21   then all we had to do was we had to retract and recant all
22   of our declarations and our testimony and say that we had
23   perjured ourselves, and that we had to implicate Mr. Berry,
24   and said that he had instructed us to do this, and we had
25   written declarations at his instructions.



101
 1             And when I saw this, first of all, my -- my
 2   stomach just fell.  I was sick at my stomach.
 3             And I said to him -- I said, "Well, first of all,
 4   he never told me to write anything."  And Mr. Rinder said,
 5   "Oh, we can work this out.  Remember, this is just a draft.
 6   We'll work this out."  It was always this, you know, "We'll
 7   sort this out."
 8             And I said something else.  'Cause I just looked
 9   at this --
10             And -- and then we went into -- Stacy and I went
11   into the other room.  And I said, "No way."  I had never --
12   you know, I didn't like it from the start.  She was the one
13   that wanted to do it.  I went -- I said, "I'm not going to
14   sign this.  This is a piece of crap.  This is -- this is --
15   they're asking me to say I'm a perjurer and to implicate
16   people, and they're going to give me 200 and whatever
17   thousand dollars."
18             Oh, also a gag order.  I couldn't talk about
19   Scientology publicly.  I couldn't assist in any -- anybody
20   else in litigation.  I couldn't assist in any other way.
21   And I also -- the agreement also required that I would have
22   to turn over all my files.  All -- or both of us would turn
23   all of our files and records to them.  So we basically just
24   expunge everything we have, admit -- you know, confess that
25   we're a bunch of perjurers, implicate Graham Berry, and they



102
 1   give us money and we could walk.  And that's how we were
 2   going to get -- that's how we were going to sort it out.
 3             So I came back in, after telling Stacy, "No way,"
 4   and I just threw the papers on the table and said, you know,
 5   "Forget it."
 6        Q    The papers, were they declarations for you to
 7   sign?
 8        A    They were in the form of declarations but they
 9   were not as you might recognize them, because they were
10   drafts.  They were 8-and-a-half-by-11 paper, and they were
11   not in a form that you might present to the court, because
12   we were going to work out the wording.  So they weren't
13   ready for our signatures at that time.  But they were in the
14   wording of a declaration, you know, with even paragraphs
15   that were numbered.
16        Q    What was Stacy's position on all this?
17        A    She agreed with me to not -- not to do it.
18             As I said, prior to that, she -- she wanted it.
19   She said, "Listen, I --" she wanted out of it.  Says, "If
20   we're going to get out of it, let's just see if we can get
21   out of it and start a new life."
22        Q    Was she willing to sign the declarations where she
23   admitted that she was a perjurer and Graham Berry made her
24   lie under oath?
25        A    No.  When I said, "I'm not going to sign this,"



103
 1   she says, "Okay.  I'm with you."
 2        Q    Okay.  But before you said you weren't going to
 3   sign it, did she express her opinion as to what she wanted
 4   to do?
 5        A    No.  Because when we walked back into the
 6   bathroom, I didn't even ask her opinion.  I just said, "This
 7   is a bunch of crap."
 8        Q    All right.  And when you came out and said to
 9   Mr. Rinder, "No thanks," did he make any other offers, like,
10   "You don't have to recant," or, "You don't have to go after
11   Mr. Berry," or anything like that?
12        A    No.  Just his first reaction was, "Well, come on.
13   Let's talk about this."  And I said, "I've got nothing to
14   talk about.  I've seen what you're trying to do, and there's
15   no way that this is negotiable.  And I don't want to hear
16   from you again."  And his last words were, you know, "If you
17   walk out of here, you know, we can destroy you."
18        Q    Did you reply to that?
19        A    I said, "Go for it."
20        Q    And what happened after you walked out?
21        A    We left the hotel, went back to her place, which
22   is maybe 25 minutes away.  And there was a message waiting
23   on the phone from Mr. Rinder, which was suddenly a change of
24   mood; no longer, you know, a threat or anything.  Just like,
25   "Hey, guys, I know things got a little out of hand.  You



104
 1   know, things are a little heated.  Come on, let's just sit
 2   down and, you know, work this out," and a lot of this, you
 3   know, blah, blah, blah.  So that message was on the phone.
 4        Q    And did you ever get back with Mr. Rinder?
 5        A    No.  We went out to dinner.  And I told her,
 6   "Let's --" no way were we going to call him back.  So we
 7   just went out to dinner.  I stayed over.
 8             And the next day, he called again and left another
 9   message, and I didn't call back.  And I flew back to Newport
10   Beach at that time.
11             And two days later, after I got back to Newport
12   Beach, he called me, and I picked up the phone, and he says,
13   "Hey, come on.  We'll just -- we'll sort this out."  I said,
14   "I have nothing to sort out with you," and, "Don't you ever
15   call me again," and hung up the phone.  And that was the end
16   of that.





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