1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR February 9 & 10, 2000 25 226 1 APPEARANCES Counsel for Plaintiff: 2 MR. KENNAN G. DANDAR Dandar & Dandar, P.A. 3 Attorneys at Law 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 201 4 Tampa, Florida 33609 5 Counsel for Defendant Church of Scientology Flag Service Organization: 6 MR. MORRIS WEINBERG, JR. Zuckerman, Spaeder, Taylor & Evans, LLP 7 Attorneys at Law 401 East Jackson Street, Suite 2525 8 Tampa, Florida 33602 9 MR. MICHAEL LEE HERTZBERG Attorney at Law 10 740 Broadway, 5th Floor New York, New York 10003 11 Counsel for Defendant Janis Johnson: 12 MR. RONALD P. HANES Trombley & Hanes 13 Attorneys at Law 707 North Franklin Street, 10th Floor 14 Tampa, Florida 33602 15 Counsel for Defendant Alain Kartuzinski: MR. DOUGLAS J. TITUS 16 Attorneys at Law George & Titus, P.A. 17 100 South Ashley Drive, Suite 1290 Tampa, Florida 33601 18 Counsel for Defendant David Houghton, D.D.S.: 19 MR. ROBERT P. POLLI Robert P. Polli, P.A. 20 Trombley & Hanes 101 East Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1265 21 Tampa, Florida 33602 22 Also Present: Mr. Michael Garko 23 Mr. Jesse Prince Ms. Lara Cartwright 24 Mr. Michael Rinder Mr. Kendrick L. Moxon 25 Ms. Wendy Beccaccini (Via Internet) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 227 1 I N D E X 2 Volume II 3 WITNESS PAGE 4 Called by the Plaintiff: 5 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 6 CROSS?EXAMINATION BY MR. WEINBERG.......... 229 7 SIGNATURE PAGE................................. 399 8 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH................... 400 9 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE......................... 401 10 11 EXHIBITS 12 Defendant's Exhibit No. 1...................... 254 13 Defendant's Exhibit No. 2...................... 273 14 Defendant's Exhibit No. 3...................... 276 15 Defendant's Exhibit No. 4...................... 295 16 Defendant's Exhibit No. 5...................... 354 17 Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7............... 379 18 Defendant's Exhibit No. 8...................... 384 19 Defendant's Exhibit No. 9...................... 386 20 Defendant's Exhibit No. 10..................... 386 21 Defendant's Exhibit No. 11..................... 390 22 Defendant's Exhibit No. 12..................... 390 23 Defendant's Exhibit No. 13..................... 393 24 Defendant's Exhibit No. 14..................... 394 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 228 1 IN THE CIRCUIT COURT OF THE THIRTEENTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT OF FLORIDA, IN AND FOR HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY 2 CIVIL DIVISION 3 ESTATE OF LISA McPHERSON, by and through the Personal Representative, 4 DELL LIEBREICH, 5 Plaintiff, 6 vs. Case No.: 97?01235 7 CHURCH OF SCIENTOLOGY FLAG SERVICE ORGANIZATION, INC.; JANIS 8 JOHNSON; ALAIN KARTUZINSKI; and DAVID HOUGHTON, D.D.S., 9 Defendants. 10 VIDEOTAPED TRIAL TESTIMONY OF ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG 11 Volume II 12 PURSUANT TO NOTICE for the taking of the 13 Trial Testimony of Robert Vaughn Young, upon oral 14 examination in the above?styled cause, for the 15 purposes of use at trial and for all other purposes 16 as are permitted pursuant to Florida Rules of Civil 17 Procedure, proceedings therefor were held before 18 Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered Professional 19 Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary 20 Public in and for the State of Florida at large, at 21 220 East Madison Street, 12th Floor Conference 22 Room, Tampa, Florida, on February 9, 2000, 23 beginning at 9:40 a.m. 24 VIDEOTAPING SERVICES were provided by 25 Thomas Hallahan and Rick Spector. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 229 1 THEREUPON, the following proceedings were 2 had and taken: 3 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, called as a witness 4 by the Plaintiff, having been previously duly 5 sworn, continued to testify as follows: 6 CROSS?EXAMINATION 7 BY MR. WEINBERG: 8 Q. Mr. Young, this is the cross?examination 9 of your trial deposition that was taken. Do you 10 understand that? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. TITUS: Before we proceed, I'd like to 13 make sure it's clear on the record that we're 14 not waiving any objections that we have made 15 in the past with respect to Mr. Young's 16 testimony. 17 MR. HANES: And additionally, on behalf 18 of Janis Johnson, I'd move to strike his 19 entire direct examination of trial testimony 20 as it relates to Ms. Johnson for the same 21 objections stated in the deposition. 22 MR. WEINBERG: And we've set that forth I 23 think pretty clearly, Ken, at the time of your 24 direct. 25 MR. DANDAR: That's right. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 230 1 Q. All right. Mr. Young, you never met Lisa 2 McPherson, did you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You didn't know her, did you? 5 A. Not personally, no. 6 Q. You never talked to her? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You were not personally in Clearwater, 9 Florida, in November or December of 1995, were you? 10 A. No. 11 Q. In fact, you were in Seattle, Washington 12 then, weren't you? 13 A. Probably. 14 Q. And you had not been to Clearwater, 15 Florida prior to your appearance in this case a 16 couple of months ago for over ten years, right? 17 A. Perhaps. 18 Q. Now, you were not with anyone, including 19 Lisa McPherson, at the Fort Harrison Hotel in 20 November or December of 1995, were you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. You never visited Lisa McPherson at her 23 job at AMC Publishing, did you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You were not her friend? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 231 1 A. No. 2 Q. Correct? 3 A. That's correct. 4 Q. You have never spoken to any of her fellow 5 workers at AMC, have you? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You were never on staff at Flag, were you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. You never met with Lisa McPherson's 10 mother, Fannie McPherson, did you? 11 A. No. 12 Q. You don't know Janis Johnson, do you, one 13 of the defendants in this case? 14 A. No. 15 Q. You've never talked to her, have you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You don't know Alain Kartuzinski, one of 18 the defendants in this case, correct? 19 A. That's correct. 20 Q. And you've never talked to him, have you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. And you don't know David Houghton, one of 23 the defendants in this case, do you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. And you've never talked to him, have you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 232 1 A. No. 2 Q. You have no idea, you don't know, where 3 David Miscavige was in November or December of 4 1995, do you? 5 A. Not percipiently, no. 6 Q. When you say percipiently, you don't have 7 any personal knowledge, that's what you mean by 8 that? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Now, and you have no personal knowledge, 11 no percipient knowledge, using your term, as to 12 what occurred with regard to Lisa McPherson in 13 November or December 1995, do you? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Now, you and your then wife, Stacy Young, 16 were hired as consultants by Mr. Dandar in this 17 case almost three years ago, in 1997, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. You and your ex?wife, Stacy, had left the 20 Church of Scientology, the staff of the Church of 21 Scientology sometime in 1989, is that right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. '88? 24 A. No. 25 Q. What year? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 233 1 A. She was not my ex?wife. 2 Q. Oh, I see. So the ?? she became your 3 ex?wife in what, 1998? 4 A. Well, that's the phrase you like to use. 5 The question was ?? we left in '89, to answer your 6 question. 7 Q. So you and Stacy left the Church of 8 Scientology in 1989, right? 9 A. We left as staff, yes. 10 Q. And you haven't served as staff in the 11 Church of Scientology since 1989, have you? 12 A. (Shaking head.) 13 Q. You have not taken any auditing or 14 training at the Church of Scientology since 1989, 15 have you? 16 A. No. 17 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy hasn't 18 either, has she? 19 A. As far as I know. 20 Q. You haven't performed for anyone else 21 auditing services since you left the Church of 22 Scientology in 1989, have you? 23 A. No. 24 Q. And as far as you know, Stacy hasn't 25 either, has she? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 234 1 A. As far as I know. 2 MR. DANDAR: Vaughn, could you speak up 3 just a little bit? 4 THE WITNESS: Sorry. 5 Q. Now, since 1993, or thereabouts, 6 virtually all of the money that you have earned has 7 come from testifying against the Church of 8 Scientology, hasn't it? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Well, the ?? you haven't held a job since 11 1993, have you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Have you held a job other than acting as a 14 consultant with regard to cases against the Church 15 of Scientology? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And that job is as what? 18 A. Well, we covered it last time. I was 19 helping to build an archive for most of the last 20 year. 21 Q. Oh, I see. So ?? we'll get to that. So 22 that it's clear, another former Scientologist who 23 works against Scientology by the name of Brian 24 Haney employed you and gave you lodging and gave 25 you money with regard to putting together you say SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 235 1 documents concerning L. Ron Hubbard who founded 2 Scientology, right? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So the archive had to do with what? 5 A. Which archive? 6 Q. That you said you were employed in the 7 last year to put together. 8 A. It was an archive of material related to 9 L. Ron Hubbard. 10 Q. And L. Ron Hubbard is the person who 11 founded Scientology and whose works are the basis 12 of the beliefs of Scientology, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And the person that employed you to do 15 this with regard to the founder of Scientology is a 16 man named Brian Haney, right? 17 A. He retained me but I just hesitate at 18 employ so there is no sense of usual employment, 19 but retained. 20 Q. Well, except that remember my question was 21 you haven't held a job since 1993 other than with 22 regard to Scientology, and you said yes, I have, I 23 did this archive, and I said, oh, the one where 24 Mr. Haney employed you and you said no. So what 25 you're saying now is that, yes, it was Mr. Haney SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 236 1 and it did have to do with L. Ron Hubbard, correct? 2 A. Your question was buried in there with one 3 of those have you stopped beating your wife. You 4 said anti?Scientology, so I had to respond to the 5 exact question. It was not an anti?Scientology 6 project. 7 Q. Mr. Haney is a pro?Scientology, correct? 8 A. You'd have to ask Mr. Haney. 9 Q. Well, you know that Mr. Haney has 10 contributed to people like you to protest against 11 and work against Scientology, you know that, don't 12 you? 13 A. He's not ?? 14 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 15 A. He's not contributed anything to me to 16 protest, no. 17 Q. Now, other than this situation that we'll 18 get to in a while where Mr. Haney employed you, 19 retained you, using your words, to put this archive 20 together with regard to L. Ron Hubbard, is there 21 any other job other than being a consultant in 22 cases involving Scientology that you have had since 23 1993? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that job is what? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 237 1 A. I was doing some writing and consulting in 2 Germany. 3 Q. And the writing and consulting in Germany 4 had to do with the Church of Scientology, didn't 5 it? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And the ?? what is Der Spiegel? 8 A. Der Spiegel is a magazine. 9 Q. Right. It's a magazine that has done 10 stories, anti?Scientology stories over the years, 11 correct? 12 A. I don't know, sir. 13 Q. Oh, you know that, don't you? 14 A. I don't read it. I don't speak German. 15 Q. Okay. You have talked to German ?? to 16 reporters and writers from Der Spiegel with regard 17 to their views of Scientology, haven't you? 18 A. Just one. 19 Q. Right. And Der Spiegel, just so that it 20 is absolutely clear, paid you $20,000 to write an 21 anti?Scientology piece, didn't they? 22 A. No. 23 Q. They paid you $20,000, didn't they? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And when was it that they paid you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 238 1 $20,000? 2 A. What was that? 1994, '95, somewhere in 3 there. 4 Q. You wrote a pro?Scientology piece? 5 A. No. I just wrote the facts. 6 Q. You wrote an article that was very 7 negative with regard to your former religion, 8 Scientology, correct? 9 A. No. 10 Q. It was very positive as to your former 11 religion, Scientology? 12 A. No. It was just the facts and a person 13 can make up their mind. It was about the Snow 14 White program in 1977, et cetera. A person can 15 make up their own mind. 16 Q. The ?? other than the $20,000 ?? oh, how 17 long was this article that you wrote that you were 18 paid $20,000 for? 19 A. In words or pages? I don't know. 20 Q. Pages? How much of the magazine did it 21 fill up? 22 A. I don't recall. It was maybe eight pages. 23 Q. Not bad. 24 A. Well, with photographs. 25 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Let's not be SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 239 1 argumentative. I was hoping we'd do your 2 cross like you did the other cross. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Just make your objection. 4 MR. DANDAR: Don't be argumentative. 5 MR. WEINBERG: No, that's not an 6 objection. The objection is objection, 7 argumentative. Okay? 8 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 9 MR. WEINBERG: Don't be giving me 10 instructions, okay? 11 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 13 MR. DANDAR: Off the record, I hope we 14 don't get there. Okay? 15 BY MR. WEINBERG: 16 Q. Now, wasn't it actually five pages? 17 A. It might have been. There was also, as I 18 say, photographs. 19 Q. Photographs that you did? 20 A. No. There is artwork, so when you asked 21 me how long was the article, with photographs I was 22 just trying to guess. 23 Q. Now, in addition to the $20,000 that you 24 received for this five?, six?, seven?, eight?page 25 article, and the money that we'll get to that you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 240 1 received from Mr. Haney for the ?? oh, the article 2 about Scientology and the money that you received 3 from Mr. Haney for the L. Ron Hubbard archive, is 4 there any other job that you have had since 1993 5 other than as a consultant with lawyers in cases 6 against Scientology? 7 A. I don't remember the year but I think it 8 was ?? it might have been '93 that I was working at 9 a newspaper also. 10 Q. There came a point in time when you didn't 11 work for the newspaper anymore and what you did was 12 act as a consultant in cases involving Scientology, 13 didn't you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. And whenever that was, since 16 then the only nonconsultant job that you've had is 17 to get $20,000 from Der Spiegel for an article 18 about Scientology and work with Mr. Haney for ?? 19 that had to do with L. Ron Hubbard who founded 20 Scientology, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 23 Q. The bulk of the money that you have 24 received since whenever this was in 1993, when you 25 no longer were a reporter, has come from the cases SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 241 1 that you have worked on as a consultant involving 2 Scientology, right? 3 A. I think that would be accurate. 4 Q. And the same ?? 5 THE WITNESS: Am I still speaking too 6 softly for the back? 7 MR. HANES: It would help if you would 8 speak up some, sir. 9 THE WITNESS: Thanks. 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Now, the same is true for Stacy as to the 12 fact that from whenever it was in 1993, as long as 13 you were with Stacy, she did not have any other job 14 other than as a consultant ?? that paid money other 15 than as a consultant involving Scientology? 16 A. Possibly. She ?? we had our own income, 17 so I wouldn't ask her about work, but that might be 18 accurate. 19 Q. You have lived off your anti?Scientology 20 consulting since 1993, 1994, haven't you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Well, since 1993, since whenever it was 23 you started, you have prepared at least 23 24 declarations or affidavits in cases involving 25 Scientology, is that right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 242 1 A. Perhaps. I don't have a count. 2 Q. Well, you have been deposed, given 3 depositions, in a number of cases involving ?? 4 MR. DANDAR: Let me make sure. Is 5 Mr. Moxon, has he made an appearance on the 6 record since he wasn't here last time? 7 MR. WEINBERG: We can state that. 8 MR. DANDAR: Kendrick Moxon for the 9 Church of Scientology. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Can you tell us what he 11 just wrote there, Ken? I don't think that 12 that happens in court, that witnesses go 13 writing notes to lawyers on cross?examination. 14 MR. DANDAR: Right. 15 MR. WEINBERG: So can you read for the 16 record ?? 17 MR. DANDAR: He's worried about 18 Mr. Rinder smirking, so we'll see. We'll see. 19 If it goes on, we'll just put the video camera 20 on him. 21 MR. WEINBERG: What's going to happen is 22 that this is a tactic from your side, Ken, and 23 Mr. Rinder isn't smirking and it's a tactic. 24 MR. DANDAR: If you're looking at me, 25 Sandy, how would you know? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 243 1 MR. WEINBERG: Because I know. I've been 2 at these depositions and I know it's a tactic. 3 I know what you're trying to do is disrupt ?? 4 what he's trying to do is disrupt 5 cross?examination. 6 A. I wrote a note. That's why I'm trying ?? 7 Q. You can't write a note. 8 MR. DANDAR: That's why he wasn't 9 disrupting. 10 Q. You can't be ?? 11 A. It's my ?? I'm sorry. It's my mistake. 12 I was ?? I'm used to depositions where I can write 13 notes, so I just thought I'd be just courteous 14 about it and he read the note. 15 Q. Now, you have also been deposed in a 16 number of cases, including this case, where you 17 have acted as a consultant against Scientology, 18 right? 19 A. No. 20 Q. You haven't been deposed in a number of 21 cases involving Scientology? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Oh, but your problem with that answer is 24 that ?? is against Scientology, you don't view your 25 work as against Scientology? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 244 1 A. That's correct. 2 Q. You have written many, many affidavits 3 that were very negative as to your former religion, 4 correct? 5 A. There were negative comments but not 6 negative regarding the religion. 7 Q. Not negative regarding the religion? 8 A. I wouldn't think so, no. 9 Q. Now, you have ?? you gave testimony in a 10 variety of cases, including the FACT Net case and 11 the Abelson case and the Sterling case and the 12 Fishman case and the Dickerson case and this case, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. You have written declarations in all of 16 those cases and others, right? 17 A. Possibly. I won't argue with it. 18 Q. And in many cases you've written more than 19 one declaration? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you've been paid for every bit of time 22 that you spent with regard to this testimony and 23 the preparation of affidavits and declarations 24 against Scientology, correct? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 245 1 Q. So you are doing this free? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Well, the people that you were ?? the 4 people or entities that you were testifying for 5 were suing Scientology, weren't they? 6 A. No. 7 Q. No? 8 A. No. 9 Q. So FACT Net was in litigation with 10 Scientology, yes or no? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. Wollersheim was in litigation with 13 Scientology, yes or no? 14 A. Yes. Dickerson didn't sue Scientology. 15 Q. So in any of the cases that you have been 16 testifying in, were the people that you were 17 working for suing Scientology? 18 A. Not all of them. 19 Q. I said any of them. 20 A. No. You said those. 21 Q. No, I didn't. I said any of them. I said 22 in any of the cases were the people suing 23 Scientology, yes or no? 24 A. Well, whatever. We've got it clarified 25 now. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 246 1 Q. All right. So the answer is yes, right? 2 A. There has been both suing and nonsuing. 3 Q. And you were paid for your services, 4 weren't you? 5 A. Not all the time. 6 Q. Well, let's take the FACT Net case. 7 That's a case that you and Stacy were consultants 8 in, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you and Stacy were paid $5,000 a month 11 for a six?month period from the fall of '96 through 12 March of 1997, correct? 13 A. That might be accurate. 14 Q. Might be accurate or is that accurate? 15 A. I don't have dates in front of me. 16 Q. But isn't that what you testified to, that 17 you received $5,000 a month, you and Stacy, for 18 around a six?month period? 19 A. It might have been. I'm not going to 20 contest it is my point. 21 Q. And then received ?? so that was around 22 $30,000 in a six?month period and then you received 23 another $4,000 later in the year resulting from the 24 bankruptcy? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 247 1 Q. Do you remember that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. So that's 34 or so thousand dollars in the 4 FACT Net case and you were paid for being a 5 consultant, which included doing declarations and 6 giving testimony, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. You were also paid over $33,000 for your 9 work in the Fishman case, weren't you? 10 A. That might be the amount. I don't contest 11 it. 12 Q. And you were paid again for your work as a 13 consultant which included doing declarations and 14 testimony, right? 15 A. As well as consulting, yes. 16 Q. And that ?? the money in that case came 17 from Lawyer Graham Berry, right, the Fishman case? 18 A. From the firm. 19 Q. Right. And the money in the FACT Net case 20 came from what lawyer, Tom Kelly? 21 A. I don't recall. I think for a while it 22 was coming from Mr. Kelly's firm. 23 Q. But it came from a law firm, right? 24 A. I think ?? I believe Faegre & Benson. 25 Q. Okay. You also did work and were paid by SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 248 1 the Cahill Gordon firm, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. What case was that? 4 A. That was a case that was brought by 5 Michael Baybak against Time magazine. 6 Q. And it involved Scientology, didn't it, 7 the church was on the other side? 8 A. Well, he ?? it was in the Time magazine 9 article which was about Scientology and it involved 10 his business practices, so it wasn't directly 11 Scientology, no. 12 Q. Baybak is a Scientologist? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And the lawyers that you were dealing with 15 were lawyers that ?? on the other side that 16 frequently represent the Church of Scientology, 17 correct? 18 A. I believe so. I never met with the 19 attorneys. 20 Q. Well, were you ?? and you were paid what, 21 some $23,000, $24,000 by the firm in that case? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Well, you received at least $15,000 from 24 Cahill Gordon, didn't you? 25 A. Perhaps so. I don't remember the amount. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 249 1 It was not that much. It was nowhere near anything 2 like the FACT Net and the others but maybe $15,000. 3 Q. And that was in 1996 that you received 4 that money? 5 A. That might have been correct. 6 Q. Now, you've ?? we've talked about the Der 7 Spiegel article which was in '96, is that right, 8 that you were paid the $20,000? 9 A. '95 or '96, yes. 10 Q. In this case you've received over what, 11 $7500? 12 A. Something like that. 13 Q. Are you owed more money? 14 A. I suppose, with your holding me down here 15 for this depo, I would be. 16 Q. Well, do you know how much? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Do you have any idea how much you've been 19 paid actually by Mr. Dandar? 20 A. No, no, I don't. 21 Q. How much has Stacy been paid by 22 Mr. Dandar? 23 A. I don't know. 24 Q. Did you testify at some point that you 25 were owed ?? that you had received $15,000 plus in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 250 1 the Baybak case and were owed another 9600 or so 2 dollars? 3 A. I might have. 4 Q. Were you paid the additional $9600? 5 A. I might have. I really don't pay that 6 much attention to those things. 7 Q. It's not that important to you? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Even though it's your only basic way to 10 support yourself during this period of time, is 11 from the consulting? 12 A. No, it's really not that important. 13 Q. Okay. Now, were you paid by the German 14 government to talk to them about Scientology? 15 A. No. 16 Q. They financed your trips over to Germany, 17 is that right? 18 A. I don't know who financed it. 19 Q. Well, you didn't pay for it? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And they had to do with Scientology? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So somebody just ?? a ticket just showed 24 up at your door one day? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 251 1 Q. Well, you don't have any idea who paid for 2 the ticket? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Somebody in Germany? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And you know what the German government 7 thinks about the Church of Scientology, correct? 8 A. Yeah. 9 Q. It's not a very good relationship, is it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Now, you have never been declared or 12 accepted by any court as an expert, have you? 13 A. Not yet. 14 Q. Now, you know that Robert Minton has 15 funded this lawsuit by the Estate of Lisa McPherson 16 against the Church of Scientology, you know that, 17 don't you? 18 A. I've been told that. I don't know 19 anything about it. 20 Q. Well, you have read ?? strike that. 21 You've been told by Mr. Minton that he's ?? that 22 he's given, by his own public statements, over 23 $400,000 to Mr. Dandar to fund this lawsuit, you've 24 been told that, haven't you? 25 A. No. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 252 1 Q. You've read that though? 2 A. No. 3 Q. And you know that Mr. Minton has been 4 funding this lawsuit since October of 1997, do you 5 know that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. You don't know that? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Now, you were retained by Mr. Dandar 10 somewhere in the June '97 time frame, is that 11 right? 12 A. Perhaps. That might be the time period. 13 Q. Now, you do know Robert Minton, don't you? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. He bought you and Stacy a $247,000 house 16 on an island outside of Seattle in October of 1997, 17 didn't he? 18 A. No. 19 Q. In October of 1997, you and Stacy were 20 living in a rented house, is that right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. In west Seattle? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. In 1995 you and Stacy had filed for and 25 been declared bankrupt, correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 253 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. As of that time in late 1995, you 3 basically had no assets, correct? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Well, we can get out the bankruptcy 6 petition but my recollection is you had basically 7 nothing in the bank, correct? 8 A. Well ?? 9 Q. Do you want to get out the petition and 10 look at it? 11 A. If you want to use your time to do it, 12 it's your ?? 13 Q. No, no, no, no. We have plenty of time. 14 A. Fine, let's do it then. I'm easy. 15 MR. DANDAR: If you let him answer the 16 question, you may not have to do that. 17 THE WITNESS: I know. He has to ?? he has 18 his own questions. Oh, Mr. Hertzberg. It's 19 his nickel. 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q. You remember in your discovery deposition 22 that we went over your bankruptcy in 1995, right? 23 A. Yeah. 24 Q. And we put into evidence in that 25 deposition the various documents that had been SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 254 1 filed by you and Stacy and we marked them as 2 Exhibit 5 to your deposition, and so let me show 3 you Exhibit 5. We'll mark it as Defendant's 4 Exhibit ?? we'll mark it as Defendant's Exhibit 5 Number 1. 6 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 1 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. Now, look at Defendant's Exhibit 1. You 9 do recognize that as the package of documents that 10 you identified in your deposition which relate to 11 the September 1995 bankruptcy filing of you and 12 Stacy, right? 13 A. Yeah. 14 Q. And if you turn to the schedules, you will 15 see a schedule that sets forth your assets. Okay? 16 That's Schedule A. 17 A. Okay. 18 Q. It's actually Schedule 1. Do you see 19 that? 20 MR. DANDAR: What page is it on? 21 A. Schedule ?? 22 Q. Here, I'll show you. Right there. 23 A. Okay. 24 Q. That shows your assets and your 25 liabilities and it shows that you have no personal SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 255 1 ?? no real property, right, because you didn't own 2 a house or anything, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that continued to be the case after 5 the bankruptcy, you didn't own a house either, did 6 you? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You had ?? you listed $12,000 plus of 9 personal property, so that your total assets were 10 $12,000 and you showed $60,000 in liabilities, and 11 if you went to the next page, the personal property 12 schedule, it broke down what that ?? what those 13 $12,000 was and, essentially, it was $539 in a bank 14 account ?? bank accounts, and some isolated items, 15 including two Mac computers, which I think you 16 acknowledged last time really were old and not 17 worth very much, correct? 18 A. As far as resale value. 19 Q. Right. So that when I said that as of the 20 time of your bankruptcy you essentially had no 21 assets, after you look at this as of the time of 22 the bankruptcy, you essentially had no assets, did 23 you? 24 A. No. 25 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 256 1 A. The statement says exactly what it says. 2 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative. 3 A. I had assets. I had computers. Those 4 are my assets. 5 Q. You didn't have anything in the bank, did 6 you? 7 A. I had some money in the bank. 8 Q. Right. What, $539? 9 A. Yeah. 10 Q. Okay. Now, you ?? 11 A. It's more than I had in the Sea Org. 12 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike; not 13 responsive. 14 Q. Now, you, after that, you then became 15 engaged in some of the cases that we've talked 16 about, in particular, the FACT Net case, right, 17 after the bankruptcy? 18 A. No, I was already ?? I was already ?? I 19 had already been working on the Fishman case. We 20 were already doing consulting work. 21 Q. I said some of the cases, including the ?? 22 you were engaged in the FACT Net case after your 23 bankruptcy? 24 A. It might have been afterwards. I just 25 wanted to clarify ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 257 1 Q. You were engaged ?? 2 A. I just was trying to clarify the work did 3 not start after the bankruptcy. 4 Q. You were engaged by Mr. Dandar after the 5 bankruptcy? 6 A. Yes sir. 7 Q. And the Der Spiegel money happened right 8 after the bankruptcy, is that right? 9 A. Might have been right after. 10 Q. Okay. So that at the time of your 11 bankruptcy you and Stacy were in need of cash, were 12 you not? 13 A. Cash would have helped. 14 Q. The $20,000 from Der Spiegel was the most 15 money that you had made in a couple of years, 16 wasn't it? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Now, Mr. Minton arrives in your life in 19 what, August, September, October of 1997, right? 20 MR. DANDAR: Objection. 21 A. Possibly September, October, August. 22 Q. Now, I ask you the question, now, you 23 claim to have not known him before he called you, 24 is that right? 25 A. That's correct. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 258 1 Q. And you claim that he called you and you 2 didn't even want to take his call at first, is that 3 right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And eventually you talked to him and he 6 agreed to purchase a house for you and Stacy, 7 correct? 8 A. No. 9 Q. What is wrong with that question? He 10 didn't buy a house for you and Stacy? 11 A. No. I did not discuss that with him. 12 Q. Now, following the conversation that you 13 had with Mr. Minton, you and Stacy embarked on a 14 house hunting search on Vashon Island with a 15 realtor, didn't you? 16 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. Okay. And you did it, you and Stacy, with 19 the authority of Mr. Minton, the man that you had 20 not known before he called you a few weeks before, 21 is that right? 22 A. No. 23 Q. You were looking for a house for him to 24 pay for, were you not? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 259 1 Q. You were looking ?? now, you were living 2 in a rental house in west Seattle, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. You did not have the funds to purchase a 5 house in October of 1997, did you? 6 A. Possibly not. As I said before, I'm a 7 veteran. I don't know. I've never investigated 8 that. 9 Q. Well, how much money did you and Stacy 10 have in the bank in October of 1997 before 11 Mr. Minton called you? 12 A. I don't remember. 13 Q. At the most, a few thousand dollars? 14 A. Possibly. 15 Q. All right. Not enough to make a down 16 payment on a $247,000 house, right? 17 A. Not immediate but one has resources. 18 Q. Now, you didn't have a job other than your 19 consulting in October of 1997, did you? 20 A. No. 21 Q. And Stacey didn't either, did she? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Now, Mr. Minton ?? Mr. Minton ?? oh, you 24 actually went out and found a house that you and 25 Stacy told Mr. Minton that you would like to move SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 260 1 into, didn't you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Well, did Mr. Minton buy a house in Vashon 4 Island for $247,000 in October 1997 that you and 5 Stacy moved into? 6 A. No. 7 Q. The reason you say no is that we're 8 playing this game that we had in the last 9 deposition that it's actually Mr. and Mrs. Minton 10 that bought the house, is that the reason that you 11 say no? 12 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. Move to 13 strike. It's argumentative. 14 Q. Is that the reason? Is that the reason 15 that you say no? 16 A. You pushed the document in front of me. 17 It's right on the documents of your exhibit. They 18 bought it and they owned it. 19 Q. All right. So ?? just so it's clear, you 20 never talked in your entire life with Mrs. Minton, 21 did you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. The only person you dealt with was Robert 24 Minton, right? 25 A. I never discussed the house with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 261 1 Mr. Minton. 2 Q. So you just, by some sort of what, osmosis 3 got the sense from Mr. Minton that it was okay to 4 go out there and shop for a $247,000 house for him? 5 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 6 A. No. 7 Q. Well, then ?? and you never ever ever, in 8 October of 1997, had any conversation with 9 Mr. Minton about purchasing the house? 10 A. That's correct. 11 Q. And, of course, you had nothing to do with 12 the purchase of the house either, did you? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You didn't look at the house before it was 15 bought? 16 A. I looked at it. 17 Q. Okay. You went with a realtor? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Stacy was with you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. You didn't sign any of the real estate 22 closing documents, did you? 23 A. No. 24 Q. You didn't sign any documents that had to 25 do with the sale of the house, did you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 262 1 A. No. 2 Q. Or the purchase of the house, did you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Because you had nothing to do with it? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. And the reason that you had nothing to do 7 with it was because you were about to be deposed by 8 the Church of Scientology on or about November 5th, 9 1997, in the FACT Net case, is that the reason that 10 you had nothing to do with it? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Because you were concerned that it would 13 come out in the deposition and make you look biased 14 or prejudiced, right? 15 A. I didn't know how it would come out since 16 we didn't know what was happening at the time. 17 Q. Wasn't it your concern and the concern 18 that was expressed by Mr. Minton that if you were 19 directly associated with this purchase, that it 20 would look bad for you as a witness in the FACT Net 21 case? 22 A. I never discussed that with him at all. 23 Q. You never discussed it with Stacy either, 24 right? 25 A. That's correct. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 263 1 Q. Now, have you reviewed Mr. Minton's 2 testimony where he said precisely that? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Now, you're not suggesting to the jury, 5 are you, that you had no idea that Mr. Minton was 6 going to pony up a lot of money to buy a house for 7 you and your wife to live in, you're not suggesting 8 that to the jury, are you? 9 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 10 A. I don't understand your question. 11 Q. Well, are you suggesting to the jury as 12 you sit here today that in October of 1997, when 13 you were out with your wife, Stacy, shopping for 14 houses out of your price range, that you didn't 15 have some idea that Mr. Minton was going to give 16 you the money to buy the house for you to live in? 17 A. She had given me that impression, that he 18 was ?? but it was not money to us, no, we were not 19 going to get any money. 20 Q. You were just going to be the 21 beneficiaries of it? 22 A. No. The cats were going to be the 23 beneficiaries of it. That's why we had to move. 24 Q. So that it's clear to the jury, you and 25 Stacy, in or about July of 1997, incorporated the SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 264 1 Friends of the Animal Foundation, which you say was 2 a cat sanctuary, right? 3 A. Yes, primarily. 4 Q. Okay. And you and Stacy had cats that you 5 would take care of at your west Seattle rented 6 house, right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And it's your testimony that Mr. Minton 9 called up one day, out of the blue, and said he 10 wanted to help you and Stacy with regard to the 11 cats, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Not with regard to your work against 14 Scientology, but with regard to the cats? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. Okay. And then ?? and by the way, you 17 had, at that time, I'm talking about when you were 18 in the west Seattle house, you had about how many 19 cats? 20 A. Maybe 15. 21 Q. Okay. You had 15 cats, and Mr. Minton, 22 who you didn't know at that time, is that right? 23 A. Never heard of him. 24 Q. You had not read about him on the 25 Internet? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 265 1 A. I had never seen or heard his name, didn't 2 recognize his name when he told me who he was. 3 Q. So Mr. Minton called up and said I want to 4 help you get a new home for these 15 cats, right? 5 A. No. 6 Q. I want to help you get a better home for 7 these 15 cats? 8 A. No. 9 Q. I want to help you get a more luxurious 10 home for these 15 cats? 11 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 12 Q. What, he said I want to help you with the 13 cats? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Well ?? 16 A. I testified what it was. 17 Q. But you know what, you know what, that's 18 in a deposition for discovery and we're in trial. 19 Okay? So we don't ?? you know, you have to forget 20 about that and you've got to answer my questions. 21 Okay? 22 A. I understand. 23 Q. All right. 24 MR. DANDAR: He is answering your 25 questions. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 266 1 MR. WEINBERG: Well, not very ?? not very 2 well but ?? 3 MR. DANDAR: Because you ask the wrong 4 questions. 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, you know, Ken ?? 6 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to get in an 7 argument with you. Go ahead. 8 MR. WEINBERG: Please don't. 9 MR. DANDAR: I don't want to. 10 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 11 MR. DANDAR: You know what you're doing. 12 MR. WEINBERG: That's good. 13 MR. DANDAR: If you don't want to ask the 14 right question, that's your business. 15 MR. WEINBERG: That's good. 16 Q. All right. Now, these cats ?? strike 17 that. 18 Mr. Minton told you and your wife Stacy 19 that he wanted to buy a house so that you could 20 move the cats into this new house, right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. The ?? somehow you got the sense that 23 Mr. Minton was willing to pay a lot of money to buy 24 a house so that you could move the sanctuary to 25 another house, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 267 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now ?? and somehow you got some sort of 3 sense as to what price range he was willing to 4 provide money for, right? 5 A. No. That was Stacy's. 6 Q. All right. Well, y'all were married at 7 the time, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. You were living together at the time? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You had conversations with each other, 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. All right. You and Stacy were having 15 conversations with Mr. Minton, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Both you and Stacy were consultants in 18 cases against Scientology, right? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And the problem with that is they weren't 21 cases against Scientology, they were cases 22 involving Scientology? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. Now ?? and so that ?? and the reason that 25 Stacy was doing the talking primarily rather than SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 268 1 you was because of the concern about this 2 deposition that was going to take place in one of 3 the Scientology cases in a few weeks, right? 4 A. That, and the sanctuary was basically hers 5 to figure out. 6 Q. Except that, we'll go through it in a 7 little while, you were the president of the 8 sanctuary, weren't you? 9 A. Of the corporation. 10 Q. Right. So that ?? and when you went 11 looking, y'all didn't look at $50,000 houses, did 12 you? 13 A. I don't know the price ranges of what we 14 looked at and turned down. 15 Q. Well, you know that when you go on Vashon 16 Island, we're not talking about $50,000 houses, you 17 were looking at houses in the range of $200,000 to 18 $300,000, weren't you? 19 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 20 Q. Weren't you? 21 A. I might have been. The price range was 22 not the point. It was whether or not it was a 23 facility for the cats. 24 Q. Well, it's the point if the guy that's 25 going to fund it is only willing to go for a SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 269 1 $50,000 house as opposed to a $350,000, right, I 2 mean that does make a difference, you wouldn't want 3 to waste your time looking at houses that were way 4 more than what he would spend, would you? 5 A. That's correct. 6 Q. All right. So that it was your belief 7 that Stacy had had a conversation with Mr. Minton 8 that gave her a sense of the price range that you 9 should be looking in, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And that price range was in the $200,000 12 to $300,000 price range, wasn't it? 13 A. I have no idea. I had no idea what the 14 value of the house was that we were ?? the houses 15 we even looked at. We never asked. 16 Q. In any event, y'all got a realtor to go 17 around with you and you found this house, correct? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the house cost $247,000, correct? 20 A. Correct, but I didn't know that at the 21 time. 22 Q. And you didn't know that because you had 23 stayed out of the negotiation process, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Stacy was doing that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 270 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. So Stacy had been authorized by Bob Minton 3 to talk to the ?? through the realtor, with the 4 sellers to establish the purchase price, is that 5 right? 6 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 7 A. I don't know what she established with 8 them. 9 Q. Well, Bob Minton didn't come to Washington 10 and negotiate the purchase price, did he? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Mrs. Minton certainly didn't come to 13 Washington and negotiate the purchase price, did 14 she? 15 A. That's correct. 16 Q. The person ?? the people that were there 17 were you and Stacy, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Nobody else was looking at the house? 20 A. That's right. 21 Q. Okay. So y'all picked this house and 22 Mr. Minton agrees to a price which happens to be 23 $247,000, right? 24 A. I don't ?? I don't know. As I said, I 25 wasn't there, so I can't concede to those SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 271 1 questions. I can tell you what happened. 2 Q. And then you moved what, at the end of 3 October, in that time period, you moved the 15 4 cats, you and Stacy into this house that Mr. Minton 5 bought, right? 6 A. No. No. 7 Q. You didn't move with the 15 cats? 8 A. Yes, we did move. 9 Q. So what's wrong with my question? 10 A. The house was bought by Mr. and 11 Mrs. Minton. 12 Q. Mr. and Mrs. Minton, I see. Mrs. Minton, 13 the person that you never ever talked to with 14 regard to any of this, right? 15 A. Mrs. Minton whose name is on the deed. 16 Q. Now, you and Stacy ?? you and Stacy did 17 move into the house, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And the cats moved into the house? No? 20 They moved outside? They moved into the yard? 21 A. No. 22 Q. They moved into a structure that was 23 outside the house? 24 A. No. 25 Q. Well, then what was the hesitation? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 272 1 A. Well, there was a downstairs, which was an 2 unfinished open basement that was not formally part 3 of the house but there was ?? that I was working on 4 to make it. So, that's why I was just being 5 hesitant. It was the house technically but it 6 wasn't the living area. 7 Q. And this was a what, five?acre house? 8 A. No. 9 Q. How many acres? 10 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 11 You're asking the size of the house? 12 Q. A five?acre lot. 13 A. A five?acre house would be pretty big. 14 Q. Well, I'll withdraw that question. This 15 was a five?acre piece of real estate on which there 16 was a house, right? 17 A. No. 18 Q. How many acres was it? 19 A. Oh, I think it was like two point 20 something or other, maybe, just a couple of acres. 21 Q. Just hold on one second. Now, you do 22 remember, and I'll refresh your recollection, that 23 we put into evidence in your deposition documents 24 from the house closing, correct? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 273 1 Q. And I'll show you what was marked as 2 Defendant's Exhibit 4 and ask you ?? and we'll have 3 the reporter ?? we'll mark this as Defendant's 4 Exhibit 2 for the trial. 5 MR. WEINBERG: If that's okay, Ken. 6 MR. DANDAR: Which one is this? 7 MR. WEINBERG: This is the deed, yeah. 8 MR. DANDAR: Closing statement? 9 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. 10 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 2 was marked for 11 identification.) 12 BY MR. WEINBERG: 13 Q. What I'm going to do is we'll ?? can you 14 identify that as the closing statement for the 15 house which indicates on it, among other things, 16 that it was a $247,000 purchase price? 17 MR. DANDAR: His question is can you 18 identify the document. 19 A. I can't identify the document since I 20 never saw the original. All I can just do is ?? 21 this is a worse copy than the other one. 22 Q. No, that's the one we showed the last 23 time. 24 A. It looks worse than the last one. Most of 25 this is illegible. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 274 1 Q. It's aging. 2 A. I can't even ?? I can't even ?? 3 MR. DANDAR: That's a copy of the exhibit, 4 isn't it? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Yes. 6 A. Okay. There is a purchase price of 7 247 ?? 8 Q. Thousand? 9 A. Yeah, to Robert and Therese Minton. 10 Q. Okay. Now ?? 11 A. But, as I say, I can't identify it since 12 I've never seen it until you showed it to me. 13 Q. Except that in this Exhibit 2 you can 14 identify an addendum that was done with regard to 15 this purchase because you signed it and Stacy 16 signed it, correct? 17 A. This was after we moved in and after the 18 purchase on a final inspection. 19 Q. That's your signature, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And that's Stacy's signature? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. So you did have something to do with the 24 acquisition of the house, did you not? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 275 1 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 2 Q. Well, you certainly ?? you lived in the 3 house after this? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And you lived in it for what, another 6 almost year or so? 7 A. Year and a half, I don't know. 8 Q. Now, at the same time that Mr. Minton 9 authorized you and Stacy to go find a house that he 10 could buy, he also gave you and Stacy $50,000 in 11 cashier's checks, didn't he? 12 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 13 A. No. 14 Q. Well, in October of 1997 the Youngs 15 received $50,000 in cashier's checks from 16 Mr. Minton, did they not, sir? 17 A. No. 18 Q. Stacy Young received in a cashier check 19 form two $10,000 cashier's checks in October of 20 1997 from Mr. Minton, didn't she? 21 A. That's what you allege. 22 Q. That's what I allege? 23 A. I never saw the checks until you showed me 24 in the deposition. 25 Q. All right. So let's have this marked as SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 276 1 the next exhibit, which is Exhibit 3, which was 2 also marked in the deposition, and ask you if this 3 is what you were just referring to. 4 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 3 was marked for 5 identification.) 6 Q. Do those appear to be three cashier's 7 checks in October of 1997 totalling $50,000? 8 MR. DANDAR: Well, I'm going to object and 9 move to strike your question because one of 10 them is not to Stacy Young or Mr. Young. 11 MR. WEINBERG: Move to strike all you 12 want to, Ken. 13 Q. Is that right? 14 A. That's what I was referring to. 15 Q. Okay. Now, these checks, by the way, were 16 produced to us by Mr. Minton during his deposition 17 in response to questions with regard to funds that 18 had been provided to the Youngs. Okay? Now, let 19 me have you look at the bottom two checks, two 20 checks dated October 6th, 1997, in the amount of 21 $10,000. Do you see those? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. Those are made payable to Stacy Young, 24 right? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 277 1 Q. Now, Stacy never told you that she 2 received $20,000 in checks from anyone in October 3 of 1997? 4 A. That's correct. 5 Q. Y'all had two bank accounts, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Do you remember your bank account 8 increasing somewhat in October of 1997? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Do you have any idea why Mr. Minton would 11 have given Stacy, your wife, two $10,000 cashier's 12 checks in October of 1997? 13 A. No. 14 Q. And did it have anything to do with the 15 Church of Scientology and the work against the 16 Church of Scientology? 17 A. The word Scientology had never been 18 discussed with him. 19 Q. So that when Mr. Minton called you on the 20 phone in whenever it was, the beginning of October, 21 September 1997, and said he had heard about you, 22 read about you on the Internet, he didn't mention 23 Scientology? 24 A. I don't remember him mentioning it. He 25 just said I heard that you guys are having trouble SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 278 1 with the cats, is there any way I can help. 2 THE WITNESS: What's the matter Moxon? 3 Q. Go ahead. 4 MR. DANDAR: Let's not laugh at the 5 witness. All right? 6 THE WITNESS: He was just shaking the 7 head. 8 Q. Just go ahead. Just go ahead. 9 A. And he said, you know, I hear you had some 10 trouble, can I help you? And I said, well, thanks 11 a lot, you know, because I, you know ?? there is 12 always people that call in. I said thanks a lot, 13 hung up and just disregarded it, and a few days 14 later got another call: Any way I can help you 15 out? No thanks. 16 I had made a posting to the Internet about 17 our situation, the attack that had been levied 18 against us, and I assumed that it was in response 19 to that but that wasn't discussed. 20 Q. Well, let's just be clear here. The 21 posting was on one of the websites that had to do 22 with Scientology, did it not? 23 A. No. 24 Q. What was it on? 25 A. It wasn't a website. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 279 1 Q. Was it on the alt.religion? 2 A. It was on alt.religion Scientology, yes. 3 Q. All right. And that is a site, or 4 whatever you want to call it, that people that rant 5 against Scientology visit frequently, isn't it? 6 A. And rant against the others. It's an open 7 freeboard of discussion. 8 Q. And it's basically about Scientology? 9 A. Well ?? 10 Q. Yes? 11 A. Mostly. 12 Q. Okay. And just so it is clear, this 13 posting that you posted accused the Church of 14 Scientology of trying to interfere with your cat 15 sanctuary, that was the accusation? 16 A. I might have said it that way. I know it 17 was Department 20 but that might have been the 18 accusation. 19 Q. And when Mr. Minton called you with regard 20 to this alt.religion posting, you knew that you 21 were receiving a call from someone who was 22 sympathetic to your battle and work against 23 Scientology, didn't you? 24 A. No. That's why I hung up on him. 25 Q. Well, eventually he convinced you that he SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 280 1 held the same views that you did about Scientology, 2 right? 3 A. No. 4 Q. So he just decided to give you ?? to buy a 5 $247,000 house to help fit 15 cats in? 6 A. He and his wife bought the house. 7 Q. He and his wife decided to spend $247,000 8 to help support 15 cats, that's your testimony? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And he and his wife decided to give your 11 wife $20,000 in cashier's checks to help the cats? 12 A. I don't know how the checks came about. 13 That was my testimony. 14 Q. Well, you obviously didn't get the benefit 15 of this $20,000, you didn't have it, did you? 16 A. It didn't come to me. 17 Q. Well, let's look at the ?? do you have the 18 exhibit in front of you? What is the Friends of 19 the Animal Foundation? 20 A. It was the formal organization that came 21 off of the work that we had been doing for about 22 another two years before that, which was for 23 rescuing animals and for educational purposes, 24 animal rescue work. 25 Q. These 15 cats that you had, you had with SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 281 1 regard to the Friends of the Animal Foundation? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Okay. 4 A. Some of them were personally and privately 5 ours. 6 Q. All right. So a few of the cats were 7 personal cats and the other cats were ?? came to 8 you through this operation, right? 9 A. Well, it's poorly worded but I'll 10 basically say yes. 11 Q. Okay. The Friends of the Animal 12 Foundation, I asked you last time, was not exactly 13 rolling in dough, so to speak, in October of 1997, 14 correct? 15 A. That's an opinion that you can ?? that's 16 an argumentative opinion. 17 Q. All right. Well, let's make it less 18 argumentative then. In October of 1997, did the 19 Friends of the Animal Foundation have any cash in 20 any account that you know of? 21 A. Yes, I'm sure it did. 22 Q. And I believe your prior testimony was it 23 would have not been very much cash at that time, 24 correct? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 282 1 Q. No, that's not correct? 2 A. No. I'm just saying that not very much is 3 always an opinion. I can ?? if you want to ask me 4 how much, I can respond specifically. 5 Q. Did you have $50,000 in an account? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Did you have $30,000 in an account? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Did you have $10,000 in an account? 10 A. Probably not. 11 Q. Okay. And you would get donations from 12 people, solicit donations from people with regard 13 to the cat sanctuary, didn't you? 14 A. Some were solicited and some were just 15 volunteered. 16 Q. Right. Those donations were relatively 17 small donations, weren't they? 18 A. Most of them. 19 Q. They did not ?? they were ?? no one that 20 you were aware of donated more than $1,000, did 21 they? 22 A. Not that I recall, no. 23 Q. And the checks usually were in the range 24 of 25 to 50 bucks, weren't they? 25 A. Most of them, except when adoptions would SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 283 1 occur, then we would move into more than that, but 2 general donations ran that but, otherwise, it would 3 be $150, $200. 4 Q. People would donate food for the cats? 5 A. Sometimes. 6 Q. I mean it was a fairly low?budget 7 operation because you ?? because you were 8 essentially running it out of your home, correct? 9 A. No. It was low?budget because it was a 10 small operation. 11 Q. Now, did the house get ?? and you and 12 Stacy, by the way, were devoted to the Friends of 13 the Animal Foundation, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It was important to both of you? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. You cared for it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. It meant a lot to you? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. It was what Stacy, in addition to 22 consulting against Scientology, it's what she was 23 basically doing with her time at the time, working 24 on the sanctuary, right? 25 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 284 1 A. No. 2 Q. So she wasn't working on the sanctuary? 3 A. She was working on the sanctuary. 4 Q. And she was also engaged in consulting 5 work in cases involving Scientology that she was 6 being paid for? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. Okay. Now, if you look at the check here 9 on Exhibit 3 ?? 3 or 2? 10 A. 3. 11 Q. 3, the first one says Friends of the 12 Animal Foundation. Now, you recognize that as your 13 foundation, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. It says October 6th, 1997, and it says 16 $30,000. Now, is it your testimony that you don't 17 know anything about a $30,000 check being given to 18 the Friends of the Animal Foundation of which you 19 were the president in October of 1997? 20 A. That's correct. 21 Q. Do you think that this is another one of 22 these things that your wife and Mr. Minton didn't 23 want to tell you about prior to your November 5th 24 deposition? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 285 1 Q. Can you account for how it is that you did 2 not know until I took your deposition a few weeks 3 ago that Mr. Minton, in October of 1997, had given 4 $30,000 purportedly to the Friends of the Animal 5 Foundation? 6 A. Because I never kept track of any of the 7 finances on the FAF. 8 Q. Did y'all ?? did there come a point in 9 October of 1997 where the bank account had $30,000 10 in it? 11 A. I was not balancing the books. 12 Q. Who did that? 13 A. Stacy. 14 Q. Well, did there come a point in October of 15 1997 when y'all were into some sort of major 16 capital expenditures for the 15 cats that you had? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And those major capital expenditures were 19 what? 20 A. We were doing ?? trying to improve the 21 downstairs to make that the primary habitat, and 22 since it was just basically open 2 x 4, there were 23 places where I was putting up dry board and 24 separating out large kennel areas, trying to make 25 kennel areas in the downstairs, putting in doors, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 286 1 putting ?? enclosing the downstairs ?? how do you 2 call it? There was a deck, a cement area 3 downstairs that you could walk out on. Getting 4 that enclosed so the cats could go outdoors to the 5 ?? so they could have outdoor air and could get to 6 it. So there was quite a bit that I was personally 7 doing to improve the sanctuary. 8 Q. You did it yourself? 9 A. Most of it. I ?? most of it, yeah. 10 Q. So it's not that you hired a local 11 contractor to do it? 12 A. As I said, most of it. Somebody had to 13 come in and pour some cement for me for some steps 14 but I was doing it. 15 Q. All right. So you spent how much for this 16 improvement in Mr. Minton's downstairs? 17 A. It wasn't Mr. Minton's downstairs. 18 Q. Excuse me. Mr. and Mrs. Minton's 19 downstairs, how much did you spend on this 20 improvement for Mr. and Mrs. Minton's downstairs? 21 A. I have difficulty with the question, 22 Mr. Weinberg. If you want to ?? 23 Q. Well, how much did you spend for this 24 improvement for the cats? 25 A. I suppose personally I remember writing SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 287 1 checks for maybe totalling out maybe $1,000 myself, 2 which was for, you know, wiring, 2 x 4's, things 3 like that. 4 Q. All right. And you wrote them out of the 5 foundation checkbook? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. But you didn't notice in the checkbook 8 that the balance had suddenly become $30,000 9 bigger? 10 A. It wasn't that kind of checkbook. 11 Q. What kind of checkbook was it? 12 A. Just a ledger, you just wrote a check and 13 made the entry. 14 Q. Well, did you ask Stacy do we have the 15 money, Stacy? 16 A. Yeah. 17 Q. She said of course? 18 A. Yeah. 19 Q. But she didn't tell you about the $50,000 20 that she had just received from Mr. Minton, she 21 didn't tell you about that? 22 A. $50,000 didn't go to FAF. 23 Q. Well, she didn't tell you about the 24 $30,000 to the foundation or the $20,000 to her, 25 right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 288 1 A. Right. 2 Q. Mr. Minton never said anything to you 3 about it? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Minton ?? oh, by the way, prior 6 to this time, Mr. Dandar had come to Seattle in 7 your rented west Seattle home to meet with both you 8 and Stacy, correct? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Mr. Dandar never met ?? oh, strike that. 11 When you were living in west Seattle before this, 12 Mr. Dandar had met you in Seattle, correct? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. So he had been to Seattle and met with you 15 as his consultants before Mr. Minton ever called 16 you, is that right? 17 A. Yes, as our potential consultants. 18 Q. Now, you were communicating with 19 Mr. Dandar, you and Stacy were communicating with 20 Mr. Dandar throughout the summer and fall of 1997, 21 were you not? 22 A. Not really. 23 Q. Well, we've got some of the correspondence 24 that we can put in that Mr. Dandar gave us before. 25 There were various communications where he would ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 289 1 he came out what, twice? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. That you met with him? And then there 4 were materials that he sent you that you looked at, 5 right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And there were some letters that you 8 received from him, right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. Okay. 11 A. It was just a matter of, as I said in 12 deposition, it was mainly me doing it. That's why 13 I said ?? I hesitated. 14 Q. Oh, Okay. So you were communicating, not 15 so much Stacy, but you were communicating with 16 Mr. Dandar during that period of time? 17 A. Most ?? most of it was me. 18 Q. Okay. Now ?? and during any of those 19 communications with Mr. Dandar did he tell you that 20 Mr. Minton had just given him $100,000 in October 21 of '97? 22 A. No. 23 Q. And did you tell Mr. Dandar that 24 Mr. Minton ?? can I finish this question and then 25 we'll take a break? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 290 1 A. Yes, please. 2 Q. Just a couple of questions. Did you tell 3 Mr. Dandar that Mr. Minton and his wife had bought 4 you a $247,000 house to live in? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And did either you or Stacy, as far as you 7 know, tell Mr. Dandar that Mr. Minton had provided 8 you or the foundation a total of ?? you being the 9 Youngs, or the foundation a total of $50,000 in 10 cash during that period of time? 11 A. When I met with Mr. Dandar in Seattle, I 12 had never even spoken to Mr. Minton. It would be 13 impossible to relay that information. Nothing had 14 happened. 15 Q. You were talking to Mr. Dandar throughout 16 the fall, correct? 17 A. You asked me ?? you said you were going to 18 do one question and I could get ?? I could take a 19 break. 20 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Fine. We'll take a 21 break. 22 MR. DANDAR: Let's take a break. 23 (Recess.) 24 BY MR. WEINBERG: 25 Q. Now, by October of 1997, when Mr. Minton SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 291 1 bought the house and issued these checks which are 2 in Defendant's Exhibit 3, the FACT Net retainer 3 checks, monthly retainer payments, were over, 4 correct? 5 A. No. 6 Q. But in October of 1993 you were no longer 7 getting $5,000 a month on FACT Net, correct? 8 A. I don't remember the dates exactly but 9 that could be correct. 10 Q. Well ?? 11 A. I won't argue it. 12 Q. Okay. I mean, in fact, according to your 13 prior testimony, those payments, those monthly 14 payments, had ended in or about March of 1997, 15 right? 16 A. That's probably right. 17 Q. There was one later payment of $4,000 out 18 of the bankruptcy court but that was after the 19 monthly retainer payments stopped, correct? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. So that in October of 1997 you were not 22 getting any monthly retainer checks from any law 23 firm with regard to any work, were you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You were getting some sporadic payments SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 292 1 from Mr. Dandar but it was only at that point a few 2 thousand dollars, is that right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Prior to Mr. Minton, in or about October 5 of 1997, the only source of income at that point in 6 time, October of 1997, that you and Stacy had was 7 this case, the McPherson case and the consulting 8 work with Mr. Dandar, correct? 9 A. I don't understand your question. 10 Q. Before Mr. Minton appeared on the scene, 11 whenever that was, and let's say the beginning of 12 October 1997 ?? 13 A. Okay. 14 Q. Before he appeared on the scene, at that 15 point in time the only income that you and Stacy 16 had was from the consulting arrangement that had 17 just begun with Mr. Dandar in the McPherson case, 18 correct? 19 A. I'm sorry. I really don't know if that is 20 correct. I remember that but I don't know when ?? 21 when ?? 22 Q. When what? 23 A. When the New York work stopped, et cetera, 24 so for the purpose of moving on, I don't mind 25 accepting it for the moment. I just don't remember SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 293 1 if there was another case that was pending 2 somewhere. 3 Q. Okay. Now, prior to the break I believe 4 that you acknowledged that you were the president 5 of the Friends of the Animal Foundation, right? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And Stacy was the director? 8 A. I believe she was the vice president. 9 Q. And Mr. Minton was a vice president, 10 wasn't he? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Mr. Minton was never the vice president? 13 A. No. 14 Q. While you were president was Mr. Minton 15 the vice president? 16 A. Not that I know of. 17 Q. You know that there came a point in time 18 when there were ?? was an application made for tax 19 exempt status for the foundation? 20 A. I lost your question. Can you give it to 21 me again? 22 Q. As the president of the Friends of the 23 Animal Foundation, you know that the foundation had 24 certain obligations with regard to reporting, 25 right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 294 1 A. Yeah. 2 Q. And you also know that there came a point 3 in time where the foundation sought tax exempt 4 status? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And there was a petition filed with the 7 IRS? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And various information had to be 10 disclosed as to the foundation and what it was all 11 about and what it did and the money that it had and 12 who the directors and officers and all that were, 13 correct? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And on that ?? on those filings with the 16 IRS, Mr. Minton was listed as the vice president, 17 wasn't he? 18 A. He might have been. I frankly don't 19 remember it. I ?? it's not a matter for me to 20 hide. The documents are easily found. 21 Q. Easily found because they are a matter of 22 public record? 23 A. Yeah, public record. I'm sure you've got 24 them. 25 Q. Do we have a paper clip anywhere? Let me SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 295 1 show you what we'll mark as the next exhibit, 4. 2 MR. WEINBERG: It's got yellow highlights 3 on it, Ken, and we'll provide a nonyellow ?? I 4 think in copying it will come out differently. 5 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 4 was marked for 6 identification.) 7 MR. DANDAR: Some yellow highlights block 8 out. 9 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, this yellow 10 doesn't block out. 11 MR. DANDAR: Is this a new exhibit or 12 from a prior deposition? 13 MR. WEINBERG: It's a new exhibit. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q. I'm showing you what's marked as the 16 application for recognition of exemption filed in 17 March of '98. By the way, you were still married 18 to Stacy in March of '98, correct? 19 A. Probably so. 20 Q. Probably so? You were? 21 A. Yeah. You place much more importance on 22 it than I do. 23 Q. Go ahead. 24 A. I'm sorry. 25 Q. Can you identify that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 296 1 A. Identify what? 2 MR. DANDAR: The document. 3 Q. Can you identify the document? 4 A. Oh, 10?23. 5 Q. Do you recognize the signature on the 6 first page? 7 A. It looks like Stacy's. 8 Q. And it's dated ?? 9 A. 3?20?98. 10 Q. It lists her as the executive director? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And it's an application for essentially 13 tax exempt status, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. All right. Now, if you flip through it ?? 16 let me just direct your attention to a couple of 17 pages. 18 A. I'd like to see the whole document. 19 Q. Okay. Well, why don't you take a moment 20 and look at the document and I'll ask some 21 questions about it. You find it funny? Is that a 22 funny document? 23 A. I'm laughing. Do you want me to ?? do you 24 want to ask a question? 25 Q. I'm just curious. I'd sort of like to be SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 297 1 let in on the amusement. 2 A. Well, it says what assets does the 3 organization have. It says kennels, cleaning 4 machine, cat shelter, cat toys. I just thought 5 that was amusing. We had a lot of cat toys. Do 6 you mind if I laugh at that? 7 Q. Go ahead. Have you gotten to the part 8 where it says Bob Minton is the vice president? 9 A. No. You've got to let me see the whole 10 document. 11 Q. Go ahead. Go ahead. Go ahead. 12 A. You said you'd let me see the whole 13 document. Let me have my enjoyment. 14 Q. Go ahead. 15 MR. DANDAR: Go ahead, Robert. 16 Q. Just tell us when you're ready, 17 Mr. Young. 18 A. I will. Okay. 19 Q. Could I see it, please? We're working off 20 of one copy. Now, in March of 1998, when this was 21 filed, you were, as this document indicates, the 22 president of the Friends of the Animal Foundation, 23 correct? 24 A. Does that document say that? 25 Q. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 298 1 A. I don't think it ?? let me see it. 2 Q. It says: Give the following information, 3 names, addresses and titles of officers, directors 4 and trustees, and I believe you're listed as the 5 president with the Minton house address. Correct? 6 A. Okay. No, with a PO box. 7 Q. Vashon Island, that's the Minton house, 8 correct? 9 A. No. It's a PO box. 10 Q. Was there any other house on Vashon Island 11 that you lived in other than the Minton house for 12 the cats? 13 A. The Mintons' house. 14 Q. Other than the Mintons' house for the 15 cats? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Now, in March of 1998, while you were 18 president, Mr. Minton was vice president, wasn't 19 he? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And as indicated on ?? by the way, you 22 obviously understand that it is very important in 23 filing with the government, making sure that your 24 filings are accurate, right? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 299 1 Q. Now, this indicates also that Robert 2 Minton is a substantial contributor, right? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Now, you would acknowledge, would you not, 5 that $30,000 would have been far and away the 6 largest contribution that the Friends of the Animal 7 Foundation ever received? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Many times over, correct? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Now, it says in here, it has a description 12 of you and Stacy in here, correct? Did you read 13 that? 14 A. I glanced over it. 15 Q. It says: Vaughn Young has extensive 16 experience in working with the media and both he 17 and Stacy are professional writers. These skills 18 and contacts will be employed in forwarding the 19 goals and objectives of the Friends of the 20 Animal ?? of the Friends of the Animals, and then 21 it goes on. 22 My question to you is at that time, in 23 March of 1998, were you doing any professional 24 writing? 25 A. No. I wanted that to become my SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 300 1 professional writing. 2 Q. The only professional thing you were doing 3 in March of 1998 was consulting in cases involving 4 the Church of Scientology, weren't you? 5 A. The only professional writing I was doing? 6 Q. The only professional thing, the only 7 thing you were being paid for in March of 1998 was 8 to consult in cases involving the Church of 9 Scientology? 10 A. Yeah. 11 Q. Then it says financial support. Do you 12 remember that page, where it says, and I quote: At 13 this point almost all the funds expended to keep 14 the Friends of the Animals functioning come from 15 our own savings and earnings? 16 A. Uh?huh. Yes. 17 Q. That's not true, is it? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Well, pardon me, but it says here, if it 20 is to be believed, that the income that was 21 received by the foundation between July of '97 and 22 December of '97 was $39,000. Now, how much of that 23 $39,000 did you and Stacy contribute? 24 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 25 Q. Do you understand the question? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 301 1 A. No. 2 Q. How much money? Because it says here 3 almost all of the funds expended come from our own 4 savings and earnings. So how much in funds from 5 your savings and earnings between July of '97 and 6 December of '97 did you and Stacy contribute to the 7 Friends of the Animals? 8 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 9 A. You're collapsing two points of the 10 application. 11 Q. I'll try the question again. 12 A. The same answer as long as the two ?? the 13 point is, if I may ?? may I help it along? 14 Q. No. 15 A. Okay. 16 Q. I'll just make it very simple. You would 17 agree that when you tell the IRS funds, that means 18 cash, right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. Okay. And you would agree when you tell 21 the IRS own savings, that that would suggest some 22 sort of a bank account, correct? 23 A. Possibly, or, you know, whatever 24 constitutes savings. 25 Q. And when you say earnings, that would be SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 302 1 something that somebody had paid you for work, 2 right? 3 A. Usually, yes. 4 Q. All right. Now, how much of your own 5 earnings between July and December of 1997 did you 6 and Stacy expend to keep the Friends of the Animals 7 functioning? 8 A. I don't really have a figure in front of 9 me but most of our funds, personal income, was 10 being used for that. 11 Q. Well, but there is very little personal 12 income between July and December of 1997, as we've 13 gone on before, right? 14 A. Well, that's your characterization of 15 little. I considered it adequate. 16 Q. A few thousand dollars from Mr. Dandar, 17 that's it? 18 A. Well, that's little in your eyes. It was 19 enough to keep the cats going. 20 Q. Okay. And how much from your own savings 21 did you and Stacy expend on the cats between July 22 and December of 1997, how much money? 23 A. July and December 1997? I don't have an 24 amount but we averaged a couple thousand dollars a 25 month always. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 303 1 Q. And certainly nothing like $39,000, right? 2 A. In that time period, no. 3 Q. All right. So the truth of the matter is 4 is that most of the money apparently came from Bob 5 Minton, didn't it? 6 A. Which money? 7 Q. That you used to run the fund in 1997? 8 A. No. 9 Q. The foundation, that you used to run the 10 foundation in 1997, the money came from Mr. Minton, 11 didn't it? 12 A. No. 13 Q. Now, on this expense report ?? by the way, 14 do you have any idea if this ?? if any of the 15 information in here is accurate as to dollars? 16 A. It was accurate to the best of, you know, 17 our knowledge at the time that we were filing it. 18 She was the one that made the application, if you 19 notice. I did not. 20 Q. Well, you reviewed it before it was filed, 21 didn't you? 22 A. I was the one that wrote the description 23 that was attached in there about the activities. 24 Q. And you saw the income and expense 25 statement in here, didn't you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 304 1 A. I don't remember seeing it but I probably 2 did. 3 Q. Well, you must have participated in the 4 budget, didn't you, that's attached in here? 5 A. Not that much. I keep trying to explain 6 it to you. She was the one that did the budget. 7 She ?? it was always an irritant to her that I 8 wasn't paying attention to the money, that I was 9 paying attention to the ?? to other aspects. 10 Q. Well, it says here income, $39,000, in 11 this form that you would have reviewed before it 12 was filed. Did you ask Stacy where did the $39,000 13 come from? 14 A. No. 15 Q. And it never came up that Mr. Minton had 16 given 30? 17 A. Not to me, no. 18 Q. Well, did you ask her, when you looked at 19 the expenses, how did we spend almost $5,000 on 20 construction and contracted services when all I 21 spent, and I was doing it, was $1,000 or so, did 22 you ask her that? 23 A. No, I knew we were spending more than 24 that. You asked how much did I personally spend. 25 There were other expenses going in that she was SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 305 1 handling. 2 Q. Well, what are the $9,000 worth of 3 construction and contracted service expenses, 4 Mr. Young? 5 A. I don't remember the time periods. Like, 6 first of all, there had to be some ?? there was 7 other work being done on the property and the 8 house. The downstairs had to be ?? the floor had 9 to be redone, also a fence was put up around the 10 property that would contain any cats that got out. 11 Q. A fence would contain cats? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. Not my cats. 14 A. Well, it's a company that ?? I even think 15 it might even be in Florida, that ?? the only one 16 that does it. It's a catproof fencing. It tilts 17 in so when they come up, they can't get it. It's 18 specially built exactly for cat ?? for catproof, 19 yeah. 20 Q. Okay. What I don't understand is though, 21 this property wasn't owned by the foundation, 22 according to your testimony, right? 23 A. That's correct. 24 Q. It was private property? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 306 1 Q. The house wasn't owned by the foundation, 2 it was a private house? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. In fact, Mr. Minton has now sold the 5 house, hasn't he? 6 A. I don't know. 7 Q. You don't know that? 8 A. No, I don't know that. 9 Q. Stacy didn't tell you that? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Now, the ?? so how is it that the cats for 12 a foundation are ?? strike that. 13 How is it that y'all are accounting to the 14 IRS for expending money on a private house to fix 15 it up and counting that as some sort of expenditure 16 for a ?? for what you represent to be a tax exempt 17 foundation? 18 A. Because the money was being spent for the 19 purpose of caring for the cats. 20 Q. Now, it says here in the current assets ?? 21 A. I certainly don't need catproof fencing. 22 Q. It says here as the current assets that as 23 of February 16th, 1998, there was no cash. Do you 24 see this, no cash for the foundation? 25 A. Okay. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 307 1 Q. Do you have any idea how ?? do you 2 yourself have any idea how the foundation went 3 through $30,000 between October 6th, 1997, and 4 February 16th, 1998? 5 A. No. 6 Q. And you didn't ?? you and Stacy didn't dip 7 into any of that money for your personal 8 expenditures? 9 A. No, because we knew that Scientology would 10 be watching every movement and that all the records 11 for the FAF would be public and checking accounts, 12 so we had to make sure that there was either checks 13 or receipts for everything spent. 14 Q. Now, on November 5th, 1997, you testified 15 in the FACT Net case in Los Angeles, did you not, 16 sir? 17 A. I don't recall the date, Mr. Weinberg. 18 Q. Well, let me just show you your testimony 19 so we don't have any ?? 20 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not going to mark this 21 but if I can come here and just show him this. 22 Q. This is a transcript dated November 5th, 23 1997, the Deposition of Robert Young, it's in Los 24 Angeles. 25 A. This is the one we looked at before. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 308 1 Q. Right. Do you remember that? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. It's in the FACT Net case, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it was in the offices of Mr. Leipold, 6 right? 7 A. No. It was in the ?? 8 MR. DANDAR: Sam Rosen's office. 9 Q. Sam ?? oh, Sandy Rosen's office? 10 A. Hastings, the Hastings firm. 11 Q. Paul Hasting. Now, that was the 12 deposition that we've talked about that you knew 13 was coming up when you and Stacy were dealing with 14 Mr. Minton with regard to the purchase of the house 15 on Vashon Island, right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Now, you were paid with regard to the 18 consulting that you did with regard to that 19 deposition, correct? 20 A. I don't know if I was paid ?? 21 Q. Well, you weren't doing it for free? 22 A. I'm just saying, Mr. Weinberg, I don't 23 know. 24 Q. You know that you were hired for money to 25 consult in the FACT Net case, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 309 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. And you were paid for doing 3 that, correct? 4 A. Yes. We've gone through that. 5 Q. All right. You didn't go to LA on a pro 6 bono mission in November of 1997, did you? 7 A. I'm saying I don't know. I have before. 8 Q. You didn't fly down there at your own 9 expense, did you? 10 A. No, somebody just had a prepaid ticket. 11 Q. Right. It was paid for, it was arranged 12 by Mr. Leipold, I assume, right? 13 A. Probably. 14 Q. Okay. Now, you were deposed by Sandy 15 Rosen, who was a lawyer for the Church of 16 Scientology, right? 17 A. Probably so. I don't remember which 18 organization he represented but it was Mr. Rosen. 19 Q. And this is three weeks after the house is 20 closed on that the Mintons bought, correct? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. This is a month or so after these checks 23 are dated that we've gone over that you say you 24 don't know anything about, correct? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 310 1 Q. And can you tell the jury who appeared at 2 your side as your lawyer in that deposition? 3 A. Mr. Dandar. 4 Q. He was representing you personally, wasn't 5 he? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. Now, he had never appeared in your behalf 8 before, right? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Mr. Dandar came all the way from Florida 11 to LA to be your personal lawyer for this 12 deposition, right? 13 A. I ?? 14 Q. Is that right? 15 A. I don't know that he was coming from 16 Florida. I know he's from Florida but I don't know 17 if he was coming in from someplace else. I can't 18 say that. He just came in. 19 Q. All right. Now, you didn't pay him 20 anything to represent you, did you? 21 A. I don't recall if we did or not. 22 Q. Didn't you previously testify that you 23 didn't pay him anything? 24 A. Yeah, and I probably didn't. There was 25 times when we paid attorneys to represent us. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 311 1 That's why I was pausing. 2 Q. This is the only time that Mr. Dandar had 3 ever represented you, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Now, Mr. Dandar wasn't working for free, 6 was he? 7 A. No. 8 Q. He didn't come to LA for free, did he? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Well, how much was he charging for his 11 services? You don't know, do you? 12 A. No, I don't know. 13 Q. No, you don't. No, somebody else was 14 paying his fee to represent you, wasn't he? 15 A. I don't know that. 16 Q. Well, Mr. Minton was paying the fee, 17 wasn't he? 18 A. I don't know that. 19 Q. Well, did Mr. Dandar tell you during that 20 deposition or before the deposition or indicate to 21 you that he was now being paid by Bob Minton? 22 A. He never mentioned it. 23 Q. All right. And did you tell Mr. Dandar 24 before the deposition that Mr. Minton and his wife 25 had just purchased a $247,000 house that you had SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 312 1 moved into with Stacy? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Now, you were working for Mr. Dandar at 4 the time, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And Stacy was working for Mr. Dandar at 7 the time, right? 8 A. Sometimes. I was mainly the one who was 9 doing the work, as I tried to explain earlier. 10 Q. Well, did you tell Mr. Dandar that you 11 were concerned before the deposition about this 12 issue of Bob Minton and, therefore, you had kept 13 yourself out of it, did you say anything like that? 14 MR. DANDAR: Stop. Objection. You've 15 just established that I was representing him 16 and now you're asking what we talked about. 17 You know better. Come on. 18 MR. WEINBERG: So you're objecting? 19 MR. DANDAR: Of course. 20 Q. Okay. Now, did you ?? now, at the 21 deposition you were asked questions about where you 22 were living, weren't you? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And during that questioning, at first you 25 did not reveal that you and your wife were ?? had SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 313 1 moved or were about to move into a house that had 2 been purchased by the Mintons, did you? 3 A. I don't recall the exact testimony. 4 Q. Well, you remember that you did everything 5 in your power to avoid telling the lawyer for the 6 Church of Scientology that you had just been given 7 a gift by a man named Bob Minton? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Now, this was part of your plan and 10 Stacy's plan before the deposition to keep you away 11 from the Bob Minton issue so you didn't have to 12 testify about it, right? 13 A. Incorrect, no. 14 Q. Now ?? 15 A. Could I just take ?? 16 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. Go ahead. 17 THE WITNESS: I just need to go to the 18 bathroom. 19 A. While you're getting the papers, I'm just 20 going to go to the bathroom. 21 Q. Sure. Sure. I'll pull out the testimony. 22 (Recess.) 23 Q. Now, Mr. Young, do you recall that the 24 issue of Mr. Dandar came up during the deposition 25 that Mr. Rosen took? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 314 1 A. No, I don't remember. 2 Q. Well, do you recall that you were asked 3 the question on page 703 by Mr. Rosen: Okay. Now, 4 you have additional expenses today in terms of 5 paying your counsel. 6 Mr. Dandar said: No, I'm pro bono. 7 Mr. Rosen said: And your expenses are 8 also pro bono? 9 And Mr. Dandar said: My expenses, right. 10 Now, that wasn't true, was it, he wasn't 11 pro bono out there and you've testified so today, 12 haven't you? 13 A. No, I didn't say that. 14 Q. He wasn't out there for free, was he? 15 A. I'm saying ?? I did not say that. That 16 wasn't my testimony. I said there was no cost to 17 me. 18 Q. You know that Mr. Dandar wasn't out there 19 pro bono, don't you? 20 A. I don't know that. 21 Q. And you know that Mr. Dandar had just 22 received $100,000 from Mr. Minton right before the 23 deposition, you knew that too, didn't you? 24 MR. DANDAR: Objection. 25 A. No, and I've told you I haven't. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 315 1 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative. 2 Q. And Stacy Young didn't tell you that, did 3 she? 4 A. She did not. 5 Q. Do you remember that you were asked 6 questions about moving in the deposition by 7 Mr. Rosen? 8 A. Somewhere along the line that subject came 9 up. 10 Q. All right. Well, let me refresh your 11 recollection. On page 728, line 6 ?? or line 2, 12 question: So you and your wife don't have any 13 present plans to be moving anywhere? 14 Answer: As I say, we've been there three 15 years and that's the reason we complied. 16 Question: I don't think you heard my 17 question. Do you and your wife have any present 18 plans to be moving anywhere? 19 Answer: We don't have any other location. 20 Question: Do you have any plans to be 21 moving somewhere? 22 Answer: I'd like to move somewhere else. 23 Question: Any place in particular? 24 Answer: I'm going to stay in the 25 Northwest, in Seattle. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 316 1 Question: And you and your wife ?? and 2 have you and your wife discussed any particular 3 location that you might be looking to move to? 4 Answer: Well, what my wife and I discuss 5 I think would be spousal privilege. 6 Do you remember those answers and those 7 questions? 8 A. Yeah, sounds familiar. 9 Q. That was false, you were trying to mislead 10 Mr. Rosen. 11 A. No, they were very accurate. I ?? 12 Q. You had already moved to Vashon Island, 13 hadn't you? 14 MR. DANDAR: That's a question. You can 15 answer that one. 16 Q. You had already moved to ?? well, strike 17 that. 18 By November 5th, 1997, the house had 19 already been bought, hadn't it? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Because that took place in October? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. But you didn't want to tell Mr. Rosen that 24 because you were concerned it would affect your 25 credibility, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 317 1 A. No. He asked me if I planned to move and 2 I was answering I didn't plan to move. I had 3 moved. 4 Q. But previous in the testimony you said you 5 lived in west Seattle in a rented house. 6 A. We had lived in west Seattle in ?? 7 Q. But you didn't tell him that you had just 8 ?? you were just moving into a $247,000 house 9 bought by this man Minton, did you? 10 A. He didn't ask me. 11 Q. Well ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: What page did you just read 13 from, Sandy? 14 MR. WEINBERG: 728. 15 MR. DANDAR: Thank you. 16 Q. Well, let's go on. Now we'll go to 7 ?? 17 at the bottom of 728, because Mr. Rosen is asking 18 these questions. He goes: Is there an area, if I 19 remember correctly in Seattle, just offshore, a 20 place called Vashon Island ?? 21 It said Bashon here. 22 ?? Vashon Island. 23 Yes. 24 Question: Is it of Seattle ?? part of 25 Seattle proper? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 318 1 This is on 729. 2 Answer: No. 3 Question: Or metropolitan Seattle? 4 Answer: It's metropolitan Seattle. 5 And it's an island out in the Puget Sound? 6 Answer: Yes. 7 Question: Do you have any plans to be 8 living there? 9 Answer: Yes, I'd like to. 10 Question: And have you taken any steps or 11 are you in the process of living there? 12 Answer: That one place ?? that was one 13 place we looked at amongst others. 14 Question: You've looked at a place to 15 rent? 16 Answer: Yes. 17 But you had already moved there, you just 18 didn't think that it was responsive to tell 19 Mr. Rosen, the lawyer for the Church of 20 Scientology, that a few weeks before you had moved 21 into a $247,000 house that had been bought by 22 Mr. Minton, sir? 23 A. First of all, your question is loaded and 24 my answers are accurate and true. He ?? if he 25 would have asked me are you living on Vashon, I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 319 1 would have said yes. Whether I planned to live on 2 Vashon in the sense of stay there for years, that's 3 up to finding out when you live on Vashon. 4 Q. I see. 5 A. My responses were accurate. 6 THE WITNESS: Really, I mean the laughter 7 at the end of the table is a bit, you know ?? 8 MR. DANDAR: Come on, Mr. Rinder. 9 THE WITNESS: They're really enjoying 10 themselves on this one. 11 Q. Well, Mr. ?? 12 MR. DANDAR: Try to keep them under 13 control. 14 A. And he's saying yes, he's even agreeing 15 that he's enjoying himself. 16 Q. Mr. Young, is that the way you approach 17 sworn to testimony? 18 A. I responded ?? 19 Q. Sort of catch as catch can? 20 A. No. 21 MR. DANDAR: Argumentative. 22 Q. Play games with ?? play games with 23 lawyers? 24 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative. 25 A. When you feed me a loaded question, I'm SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 320 1 going to answer no when it's loaded. 2 Q. Could anything be clearer than the 3 question do you have any plans to be living there 4 after you had just testified that you were living 5 in west Seattle. Answer: Yes, I would like to. 6 Could anything be clearer? 7 A. That's an accurate response. Do you have 8 plans? Yes, I would like to. 9 Q. You think that's accurate? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you think you were being entirely 12 truthful by not disclosing at this point in the 13 deposition that you and your wife had just moved 14 into a $247,000 house on Vashon Island? 15 MR. DANDAR: Don't answer the 16 argumentative repetitive question. 17 Q. Go ahead. 18 MR. WEINBERG: He has to answer. 19 MR. DANDAR: No, he don't. 20 MR. WEINBERG: You can object. 21 MR. DANDAR: No, do not answer. 22 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, you cannot ?? you're 23 not the judge. 24 MR. DANDAR: He's not answering. You're 25 repeating yourself. He's already answered SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 321 1 that question twice. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, Ken, Ken, make your 3 objection, just like I did. 4 MR. DANDAR: Then we'll suspend the 5 deposition. Is that what you want to do? 6 MR. WEINBERG: You want to suspend the 7 deposition why? Because he's going down the 8 tubes, is that ?? 9 MR. DANDAR: You're violating the rule. 10 A. Oh, God. 11 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not violating any rule. 12 MR. DANDAR: What tube? 13 MR. WEINBERG: I'm not violating any 14 rule. 15 MR. DANDAR: You know he answers. He 16 tells about the rental agreement later on in 17 the deposition, you know that. 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q. Let me ask you something, Mr. Young. It's 20 your recollection that after attempting to avoid 21 telling, disclosing that you had moved to Vashon 22 Island, finally Mr. Rosen simply came out and asked 23 you and you finally had to, because you knew that 24 he knew, say yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, and then there 25 were questions about Bob Minton, right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 322 1 MR. DANDAR: Object to the multiple 2 questions. 3 A. Yeah, that's ?? you've got about five 4 questions inside there. Which one do you want me 5 to answer? 6 Q. Well, just leave it at you, in your 7 opinion, were being entirely truthful in the 8 answers that we ?? the questions and answers that 9 we just went over, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. Well, how about this one? We go to page 12 731. Question: My question is can you tell me an 13 address or any other way that you want to describe 14 it of places that you've looked at on Vashon 15 Island, on Vashon as a potential residence? 16 The Witness: We've looked at places on 17 Vashon. I've rented no places on Vashon. I have 18 taken up no residence on Vashon. 19 Now, my question is so you're being 20 entirely truthful there too? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. Because what, you had taken up no 23 residence on Vashon? 24 A. Not at that point, I didn't consider it, 25 no. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 323 1 Q. You didn't consider it? 2 A. (Witness shaking head.) 3 Q. So your testimony is what, you were going 4 to move ?? had you moved onto Vashon Island by 5 November 5th, 1997? 6 A. I don't remember if that was the move or 7 if it was shortly thereafter, so my testimony would 8 have been accurate at the time. 9 Q. So you're satisfied that that was an 10 accurate statement? 11 A. Yes. If he would have asked me, I ?? I 12 answered my questions accurately. 13 Q. Okay. Well, how about this one, page 733. 14 We're talking about credibility here. Question: 15 Do you know a gentleman named Minton, M?i?n?t?o?n, 16 I think his first name is Robert? 17 Answer: I've spoken with him. 18 Question: And do you know whether he owns 19 any property on Vashon Island? 20 Answer: I believe he does. 21 Question: And have you spoken with him 22 about that property? 23 Answer: No. 24 Now, that's an accurate answer, that's a 25 truthful answer, that you hadn't spoken to SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 324 1 Mr. Minton about the property on Vashon prior to 2 November 5th, 1997, that he bought, he and his wife 3 bought for you and Stacy? 4 A. And as I've answered you earlier, I had 5 not spoken with Mr. Minton about the property in 6 purchasing it. I have said that time and again. 7 It was accurate then and it is accurate now. 8 Q. So you feel comfortable with the 9 truthfulness of that testimony when you were under 10 oath in November of 1997? 11 A. Yes. 12 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 13 A. I had not spoken with Mr. Minton about 14 the purchase of that property, no. 15 Q. All right. Question on page 733 by 16 Mr. Rosen, and 737, I mean, by Mr. Rosen, and 738, 17 question: After the real estate agent showed you 18 the house, when is it that you first learned that 19 Mr. Minton owned it? 20 Answer: A few weeks later. 21 Question: At the time you looked at the 22 house, was it your understanding it was owned by 23 somebody else other than Mr. Minton? 24 Answer: I don't know who owned it. 25 Question: Do you know when Mr. Minton SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 325 1 bought the house after you saw it? 2 Answer: Yes. 3 So you think you were being entirely 4 honest there, too? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. You feel comfortable with the veracity of 7 your testimony there? 8 A. The house wasn't purchased until weeks 9 after it was looked at with the realtor, that's 10 correct. 11 Q. All right. Page 740, question, line 22: 12 Why did he buy it ?? talking about Minton ?? why 13 did he buy that house? 14 Answer: I did not discuss this house with 15 him, Mr. Rosen. 16 MR. DANDAR: Is that a question? 17 Q. Yeah. Is that accurate? 18 A. I've testified to that earlier today. I 19 did not discuss it with him. 20 Q. Because you were intentionally trying to 21 keep yourself in a situation so you could give 22 those denials at your deposition, that was the 23 plan? 24 A. No. 25 Q. So that you could give absolutely accurate SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 326 1 testimony at your deposition, that was the plan? 2 A. I always give accurate testimony at my 3 depositions. 4 Q. Now, in mid 1998 you talked with Jesse 5 Prince for the first time in a number of years, 6 correct? 7 A. Possibly that was the time, yes. 8 Q. And you actually met him out in Los 9 Angeles at Mr. Leipold's office? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. You helped him write an affidavit against 12 Scientology? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You edited an affidavit that was written 15 for him with regard to Scientology? 16 A. No. 17 Q. You didn't have anything to do with regard 18 to a declaration or affidavit that was done by 19 Mr. Prince in or about that time period in 1998? 20 A. Yes, I did. 21 Q. And you were actually being paid by 22 Mr. Leipold to work on, among other things, a case 23 involving the Church of Scientology, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And part of your function was to look at SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 327 1 this declaration that was done and signed by 2 Mr. Prince? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You didn't have anything to do with the 5 affidavit? 6 A. I did not work on the writing of it, no. 7 Q. You edited it, didn't you? 8 A. That's very different from writing it. 9 Q. Did you edit it? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And you edited it before he signed it, 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. You did that in Mr. Leipold's office, 15 right? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And you knew at that point that Mr. Prince 18 was also being financed by Mr. Minton, didn't you? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Now, did you tell Mr. Prince at that point 21 that you and Stacy were living in a house that had 22 been bought by the Mintons, did you tell him that? 23 A. I might have. 24 Q. And did Mr. Prince tell you that he had 25 already been to Mr. Minton's in New Hampshire, did SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 328 1 he tell you that? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Did Mr. Prince tell you that he had any 4 relationship with Mr. Minton? 5 A. No. 6 Q. At that time, when you were out at 7 Mr. Leipold's? 8 A. No. 9 Q. It just didn't come up, right? 10 A. That's right. 11 Q. But shortly thereafter you flew to Chicago 12 to join Mr. Prince to accompany him in a move to 13 Denver, right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. When did you do that? 16 A. I didn't. 17 Q. Oh, you flew to Minnesota? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. All right. So you're just being 20 technically accurate here, right? 21 MR. DANDAR: Objection; argumentative. 22 A. Mr. Weinberg, you're asking me to answer 23 precisely and then when I avoid ?? do that, then 24 you object. 25 MR. DANDAR: Do you want him not to be SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 329 1 accurate. 2 Q. All right. Now ?? 3 A. And I even offer sometimes to clarify, 4 can I clarify for you, and then you say no, because 5 otherwise it was no, not Chicago, Minneapolis, but 6 I'm trying to follow your instructions. 7 Q. Now, you, shortly after this meeting with 8 Mr. Prince in LA, you flew to Minnesota to join 9 Mr. Prince to take him to Denver, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. And ?? 12 A. Not take him, accompany him. 13 Q. Accompany him to Denver. And you knew 14 that he was going to Denver to work purportedly for 15 FACT Net, right? 16 A. That's what he told me. 17 Q. Right. And at that point he told you, did 18 he not, sir, that Mr. Minton was going to pay for 19 this move from wherever he lived, Minnesota, to 20 Denver? 21 A. No. 22 Q. He never mentioned it? 23 A. Minton's name was never mentioned. 24 Q. Now, y'all drove in a car, right? 25 A. As opposed to ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 330 1 Q. Just follow me for a second. Okay? 2 A. Okay. 3 Q. Yes? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. And it was a car that had been recently 6 purchased for Mr. Prince, wasn't it? 7 A. I don't know that. 8 Q. Well, Mr. Prince didn't tell you that 9 Mr. Minton paid $23,000 for the car that y'all took 10 across country from Minnesota to Denver, he didn't 11 tell you that? 12 A. No, he didn't. 13 Q. And now, you didn't pay for any of the 14 expenses on this trip, did you? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Mr. Prince did? 17 A. I don't know who did. 18 Q. Well, I mean the money that was used came 19 out of his pocket, not your pocket, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And he told you, did he not, that that 22 money came from Mr. Minton? 23 A. No. 24 Q. He didn't tell you that? 25 A. He ?? I'll say it again. Mr. Minton's SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 331 1 name never came up. 2 Q. In the entire ?? and you spent 10 days on 3 the road with Mr. Prince, right? 4 A. Probably 10. 5 Q. Right. You went from Minnesota to ?? you 6 ended up in Memphis and then through the Midwest 7 and ultimately in Denver, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. Okay. And through that 10 or so day 10 period Mr. Minton's name never came up? 11 A. That's correct. 12 Q. Did you ask Mr. Prince where he was 13 getting the money? 14 A. No, no, not my style. 15 Q. All right. Now, you had to fly from 16 where, Seattle to Minnesota or from some other city 17 to Minnesota? 18 A. Seattle to Minneapolis. 19 Q. Seattle to Minneapolis. Now, you didn't 20 pay for that trip, did you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Mr. Minton did, didn't he? 23 A. No. I don't know that. 24 Q. Well, as far as you knew, you didn't have 25 the funds to fly from Seattle to Minnesota, did SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 332 1 you? 2 A. No. 3 Q. Okay. So you didn't pay for it, right? 4 A. Right. 5 Q. Stacy didn't pay for it, right? 6 A. Right. 7 Q. All right. Who did pay for it? 8 A. I believe Jesse did. 9 Q. Jesse, and that was from the job that 10 Jesse had in Minnesota? 11 A. I don't know. 12 Q. All right. So Jesse ?? now, the ticket 13 was arranged by Stacy, right? 14 A. She made the flight arrangements. 15 Q. Right. And she didn't tell you that the 16 money ?? the ticket had been purchased by 17 Mr. Minton, right? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Or funds that Mr. Minton had given to her? 20 A. No. 21 Q. Did you ask her where the ticket came 22 from? 23 A. No. I just assumed it was coming from 24 Jesse. 25 Q. Now ?? well, you knew ?? at some point SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 333 1 during this trip Jesse must have told you that he 2 had declared bankruptcy in 1997, right, he told you 3 that, didn't he? 4 A. No, he didn't. 5 Q. So that never came up either? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Now, how much money did Jesse have on this 8 trip, do you know? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Now, once you got to Denver, you then ?? 11 you didn't go back to Seattle, did you? 12 A. No. 13 Q. You went to San Francisco? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. To visit a friend? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. And somebody paid for that flight as well, 18 right? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And you ?? and Mr. Minton paid for that 21 flight, didn't he? 22 A. I don't know. I ?? 23 Q. Well, who got the ticket for you? 24 A. Stacy. 25 Q. But she didn't have the money to pay for SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 334 1 that trip, as far as you know, did she? 2 A. She must have, she paid for it. 3 Q. Well, did she tell you that the money came 4 from Bob Minton? 5 A. She didn't tell me anything. 6 Q. Do you know how much the trip cost? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Now, you went to San Francisco but your 9 friend wasn't there, right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. And at that point the decision was made 12 for you to fly to Columbus, Ohio, to go to Well 13 Spring, right? 14 A. I have trouble with the form of your 15 question. If you want to, reask it. 16 Q. Well, you didn't go from San Francisco 17 back home to Vashon Island? 18 A. No. 19 Q. You went from San Francisco to Columbus, 20 Ohio, right? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. You went to a deprogramming place, didn't 23 you? 24 A. No. 25 Q. You went to a place that was run by people SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 335 1 that were ?? that represented themselves as 2 anticult people? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You went to a place that Stacy had been a 5 few months before? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. You went to a place that ?? and the visit 8 that Stacy had a few months before lasted what, two 9 weeks? 10 A. I think she was just there a week. 11 Q. And you meet with psychologists and 12 various people at this place to work through issues 13 that in your case and her case you say had to do 14 with Scientology, right? 15 A. Might have been. You just get to deal 16 with what you want to deal with. 17 THE VIDEOGRAPHER: We're out of time, sir. 18 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 19 (Recess.) 20 BY MR. WEINBERG: 21 Q. To refocus you, we were talking about Well 22 Spring and your visit there sometime in the ?? you 23 would date it sometime in the summer of 1998, is 24 that right? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 336 1 Q. You actually went there twice, didn't you? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. You went there again in May or so of 1999, 4 do you remember? 5 A. I think it was either August or ?? 6 Q. Okay. I'm sorry. 7 A. ?? of '99. 8 Q. You went there in the summer of 1999? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And each time you were there for two 11 weeks, right? 12 A. No. 13 Q. How long were you there each time? 14 A. One week. 15 Q. So each stay was one week? 16 A. Basically six days, yeah. 17 Q. Stacy was there for two weeks? 18 A. No. 19 Q. Okay. Now, the head of Well Spring is a 20 man named Dr. Paul Martin, isn't it? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And Dr. Paul Martin had been on the board 23 of directors of the Cult Awareness Network, had he 24 not? 25 A. I don't know. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 337 1 Q. Well, you know what the Cult Awareness 2 Network is, don't you? 3 A. Was. 4 Q. What is referred to as CAN, right? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And it was in ?? it was an organization ?? 7 it was an anticult organization, correct? 8 A. Cult informative, sometimes anti some 9 cults. 10 Q. Right. 11 A. Controversy as to what it really was but 12 that's fairly accurate. 13 Q. And they eventually went bankrupt as a 14 result of a lawsuit that they lost arising out of a 15 kidnapping of a young Pentecostal man and 16 attempting to deprogram him, correct? 17 A. I don't know that. 18 Q. Well, you know that they went out of 19 business, right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. They went bankrupt, right? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. They were in litigation involving the 24 Church of Scientology, right? 25 A. Might have been. I don't know their SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 338 1 litigation record. 2 Q. And you don't know that the guy that runs 3 Well Spring had anything to do with this anticult 4 network named CAN? 5 A. No. 6 Q. He never mentioned that? 7 A. No. 8 Q. Well, you did talk about Scientology at 9 Well Spring? 10 A. What I did at Well Spring I would consider 11 to be a doctor?patient relationship since it was 12 personal, for my own personal benefit with a 13 therapist. 14 Q. All right. But it has nothing to do with 15 your testimony on direct with regard to your views 16 concerning Scientology, nothing? 17 A. I'm just ?? 18 Q. Just answer that question. 19 A. I don't understand the question. 20 Q. The stay at Well Spring, the discussions 21 that you had at Well Spring, this organization run 22 by Dr. Paul Martin, is it your testimony it had 23 absolutely nothing to do with the opinions that you 24 were ?? that you gave on your direct testimony? 25 A. That's correct. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 339 1 Q. Well, you've testified in behalf of CAN in 2 Emory Wilson versus CAN, didn't you? 3 A. No. 4 Q. You worked in that case, didn't you? 5 A. Yes, I just never testified in it. 6 Q. Oh, you gave a deposition in it or did a 7 declaration in it? 8 A. I did a declaration. I don't know if 9 there was a deposition. 10 Q. All right. So you know what CAN is? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. You were a consultant for CAN? 13 A. No. 14 Q. You were paid to consult with regard to a 15 lawsuit in which the lawyers for CAN hired you? 16 A. Leipold was the one that retained me. I 17 believe he was the attorney for CAN. 18 Q. Didn't you do a couple depositions in that 19 case? 20 A. Probably. I remember ?? I might have done 21 one. I don't know if I did two. 22 Q. And you were paid for your work, weren't 23 you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. Now, the stay ?? Well Spring is a ?? in SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 340 1 the country, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. Has some property? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Not very many people go there, I mean 6 there is just a few people there at any given time? 7 A. Only a few people when I was there. 8 Q. In fact, you were at one time the only 9 person, right? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Two people? 12 A. No. 13 Q. I thought that your testimony was that one 14 of the times it was just a woman that was a patient 15 like you? 16 A. I never used the word patient. 17 Q. What did you use? 18 A. Client. 19 Q. Client. 20 A. And when you said I was the only person 21 there, I was never the only person there. There's 22 always staff there. 23 Q. Well, I meant from a client ?? 24 A. Well, I'm trying to be accurate with 25 your questions. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 341 1 Q. I appreciate that, Mr. Young, I appreciate 2 that. So you were ?? there were ?? at one time you 3 were the only client there, right? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Okay. Now, you discussed Well Spring with 6 Mr. Minton? 7 A. No. 8 Q. You discussed Well Spring with Stacy? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And you discussed Well Spring with Jesse 11 Prince? 12 A. Probably did in the trip. 13 Q. Yeah, because Jesse Prince went to Well 14 Spring as well, didn't he? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. Now, Jesse Prince told you, did he not, 17 that Mr. Minton paid for ?? paid $5,000 for his 18 time at Well Spring, did he tell you that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you know that? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Do you know that it costs approximately 23 $5,000 for a stay at Well Spring? 24 A. No. Now I do. 25 Q. You know it now because ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 342 1 A. You told me. 2 Q. ?? I just told you. Okay. So Stacy never 3 told you that either? 4 A. No. 5 Q. Bob Minton never told you that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Now, did ?? your testimony in your 8 deposition was that you got a scholarship to Well 9 Spring, right? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. In other words, your understanding was 12 that you didn't have to pay anything? 13 A. That's correct, except for your travel 14 there. 15 Q. Which somebody else paid for but you don't 16 know who it was? 17 A. I'm just saying as far as scholarships are 18 concerned, scholarships cover the stay there, not 19 your ?? you handle your own travel. 20 Q. And you don't know if anybody made a 21 donation with regard to this scholarship? 22 A. That's how scholarships are established, I 23 assume, is people make donations. 24 Q. And did Mr. Minton make a donation? 25 A. I don't know. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 343 1 Q. Did anybody make a donation in your behalf 2 with regard to your stay at Well Spring? 3 A. I don't know. 4 MR. DANDAR: We'll break for lunch when 5 you're done with Well Spring. 6 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. 7 Q. Did you have to sign some sort of term of 8 a rehabilitation agreement to ?? when you went to 9 Well Spring? 10 A. I don't understand your question. 11 Q. Did you have to sign an agreement when you 12 went to Well Spring? Did you sign some documents 13 when you went there? 14 A. I signed something. 15 Q. That laid out the program? 16 A. Probably. 17 Q. Laid out the terms? 18 A. Probably. 19 Q. Set forth what the fees were? 20 A. No, there was nothing signed with fees 21 that I remember. 22 Q. You don't remember anything like that? 23 A. No, not at all. 24 Q. Well, did you get some document that said 25 we waive the fees? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 344 1 A. No. 2 Q. Did somebody tell you there that somebody 3 had paid your fees for you? 4 A. No. 5 Q. And did they tell you ?? did you learn 6 that somebody had paid Stacy's fees for her? 7 A. No. 8 Q. And the second time around, a year later, 9 you received another scholarship from this 10 organization? 11 A. At my request, yes. 12 Q. And as far as you know, nobody covered the 13 expenses of you being at this retreat for a week, 14 right? 15 A. Well Spring did. 16 Q. Okay. You don't have any idea what their 17 source of funding is? 18 A. No. 19 MR. WEINBERG: I guess we can ?? I mean 20 I'm done with that. Do you want to ?? I've 21 got a few other areas that I can ?? 22 MR. DANDAR: Let's go. Let's take a 23 break. 24 (Recess.) 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 345 1 BY MR. WEINBERG: 2 Q. Mr. Young, we're still on 3 cross?examination. Did you speak to anyone with 4 regard to your testimony during the break? 5 A. Other than speaking with Mr. Dandar, no. 6 Q. Well, do you understand that on 7 cross?examination you're not permitted to speak to 8 anyone, including particularly the lawyer for the 9 person that called you as a witness? 10 MR. DANDAR: We didn't talk about his 11 testimony. 12 A. We didn't talk about my testimony. 13 MR. DANDAR: We know better. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q. Well, I just heard you say something about 16 that just while we were sitting here, about 17 something you didn't remember, blah, blah. So you 18 weren't talking about the testimony at all? 19 A. No, no, no. 20 Q. You do understand that that's the rule, 21 the operative rule here, right? 22 A. Yeah, I understand that. 23 Q. Okay. Now, Mr. Haney's first name is 24 what? 25 A. Brian. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 346 1 Q. And Brian Haney is a man that lives in 2 Columbus, Ohio, is that right? 3 A. No. 4 Q. He lives in Ohio? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. What city does he live in? Outside of 7 Columbus? 8 A. It's a suburb of Columbus. I can't 9 remember the name of it. It's just outside the 10 city limits of Columbus. 11 Q. And he used to be a Scientologist, is that 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. And in February of 1999 he provided you 15 with an apartment to live in, is that right, on or 16 about February of 1999, right? 17 A. To live and work in. 18 Q. And you didn't pay rent, did you? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And it was a furnished apartment? 21 A. Yes. 22 Q. And he provided you with a car to drive, 23 right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. You didn't pay for that either, did you? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 347 1 A. No. 2 Q. And you drove the car actually across 3 country? 4 A. Yes. 5 Q. Several times, didn't you? 6 A. Well, a round trip once. 7 Q. And that was on a personal trip? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. That wasn't for work, was it? 10 A. No. 11 Q. And in addition to everything else, he 12 paid you from approximately February of '99 through 13 August of '99 $200 a week? 14 A. Almost. 15 Q. And did he do that by way of check, cash, 16 what? 17 A. Cash. 18 Q. And did you receive a 1099 for that? 19 A. No. 20 Q. And why is that? 21 A. I don't know. 22 Q. Well, do you consider it income? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. So you intend to declare that for tax 25 purposes? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 348 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Now, what you were working on in this 3 apartment from February through August of 1999 was 4 this project that you described as some sort of 5 archiving of records concerning L. Ron Hubbard, the 6 founder of Scientology, is that right? 7 A. As long as the question is not properly 8 worded, I have to say no until we get to the right 9 question. 10 Q. All right. So that the ?? so that you 11 were not working, as I thought you had said 12 earlier, on a project with regard to archiving 13 records regarding L. Ron Hubbard? 14 A. Yes, I did. 15 Q. You did work on that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. Okay. And you certainly didn't have any 18 objection to my characterization of Mr. Hubbard as 19 the founder of Scientology, did you? 20 A. No, but as I ?? it was just larger than 21 that. 22 Q. Now, how many boxes of documents were 23 there in this room? 24 A. At what point? 25 Q. Well, how many boxes ?? I mean how many SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 349 1 boxes of documents did you archive? 2 A. That I finally ended up working on, maybe 3 eight or ten banker's boxes. 4 Q. These are the square sort of banker's 5 boxes, right? 6 A. Standard banker's box size. 7 Q. Not the real lengthy ones? 8 A. No, just the ?? just the small ones. 9 Q. Like these boxes that we have here, right? 10 A. Right. 11 Q. Okay. 12 A. They are about one foot by one?and?a?half 13 foot wide. 14 Q. Okay. And so it took you eight months to 15 go through eight boxes? 16 A. No. 17 Q. It took you from however long it was 18 between February and August of '99 to go through 19 eight boxes? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. Now, you also ?? and you understand that 22 Mr. Haney is involved in this lawsuit as well as a 23 consultant, don't you, in the Lisa McPherson case? 24 A. No. That's news to me. 25 Q. So he never told you that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 350 1 A. That's the first time I've heard that. 2 Q. And you understand that Mr. Haney works 3 against his former religion Scientology? 4 A. No. 5 Q. You don't understand that? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Now, in the fall of 1999 you were paid to 8 prepare an affidavit or declaration to be filed in 9 the Wollersheim case, correct? 10 A. No. 11 Q. Did you prepare in the fall of 1999, in a 12 room in the Columbus area, in the presence of Jesse 13 Prince, a declaration or affidavit to be filed in 14 the Wollersheim versus Church of Scientology case? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Did you ?? did you prepare in Ohio an 17 affidavit that was executed and filed in the 18 Wollersheim case? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. And was part of the work with regard to 21 that, to the preparation of that affidavit, done 22 with Jesse Prince? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And did you do it with Jesse Prince in a 25 hotel room in the Red Roof Inn in the Columbus, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 351 1 Ohio area? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And you were paid for that work, were you 4 not? 5 A. Yes. 6 Q. And Jesse Prince also in that time period 7 prepared and worked on his own affidavit or 8 declaration to be filed in the Wollersheim case, 9 right? 10 A. Not while I was there. 11 Q. So he was just helping you on your 12 affidavit? 13 A. He was reading material but he was not 14 working on an affidavit while I was there. 15 Q. All right. But you understood that he was 16 also working on an affidavit to be filed in the 17 same case, right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And you understood that the affidavit was 20 an affidavit that said very negative things about 21 your former religion, the Church of Scientology? 22 A. I didn't read it. 23 Q. Your affidavit that you prepared ?? 24 A. Oh. 25 Q. ?? said very negative things about your SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 352 1 former religion, the Church of Scientology? 2 A. No. 3 Q. So it said very positive things about the 4 church? 5 A. No, just factual, taken from ?? taken from 6 their documents. 7 Q. So you couldn't characterize it as 8 positive or negative then? 9 A. It's just factual. 10 Q. Right. But you do understand that there 11 had been litigation between Larry Wollersheim, 12 another former Scientologist, and the Church of 13 Scientology for almost 15 years now, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And you were now being hired and paid to 16 do an affidavit in that lengthy lawsuit, correct? 17 A. Yes. 18 Q. And you understand that Jesse was hired to 19 prepare an affidavit or declaration in that lengthy 20 lawsuit in the same time period, right? 21 A. No. 22 Q. So you don't know that? 23 A. No. 24 Q. You just ?? well, you do know that. I 25 mean, Mr. Young, Mr. Prince has told you and you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 353 1 know that he filed an affidavit in the Wollersheim 2 case in the fall of 1999, you know that, don't you? 3 A. If you would like me to help you with the 4 questions, I would like to, but I don't know that 5 he was hired, but whenever I try to correct the 6 thing so I can answer your question properly, you 7 object, so I have to say no. I do not know that he 8 was hired. I know that ?? and I answered I knew 9 that he was prior to doing this. So if you would 10 like me to sometimes help you out on the small 11 ones, I'm willing. 12 Q. So you know Jesse Prince pretty well, I 13 mean you know him to be somebody that does charity 14 work in these lawsuits, right? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. Well, you know not, don't you? 17 A. I don't know what he does in the lawsuits. 18 Q. Now, how much have you or are you to be 19 paid with regard to your work in the Wollersheim 20 case? 21 A. I think it's $2,000. 22 Q. You've been paid to date? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And how much are you owed? 25 A. I think we're done. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 354 1 Q. And how many hours did you work on that, 2 do you have any idea? 3 A. Well, more than that reflects, I know 4 that, because we were in there for several days, et 5 cetera, but total time was probably six, seven full 6 days. 7 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 5 was marked for 8 identification.) 9 Q. Now, let me have marked as the next 10 exhibit, which would be Exhibit 5, some letters ?? 11 composite exhibit ?? the letters that were provided 12 to us by Mr. Dandar, six letters that ?? the first 13 one being a June 30th, 1997 letter from Mr. Dandar 14 to Stacy and Vaughn Young at your west Seattle 15 address; the next letter being an October 20th, 16 1997 letter to you from Mr. Dandar at your west 17 Seattle address; the next letter being an 18 October 2nd, 1997 letter to you from Mr. ?? from 19 the paralegal at Mr. Dandar's office at the west 20 Seattle address; the next letter is a September 21 8th, 1997 letter from Mr. Dandar to you at the west 22 Seattle address; there is an August 13th, 1997 23 letter to you from Mr. Dandar at the west Seattle 24 address; and there is an August 1 letter to you 25 from Mr. Dandar at the west Seattle address. And SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 355 1 those letters have been represented as all the 2 letters that Mr. Dandar can find reflecting 3 payments to you and/or to Ms. Young, and if you 4 will go through them, I believe you will see that 5 they total ?? well, why don't you tell me what they 6 total and then tell me what else you've received in 7 this case. Can you identify those and then tell us 8 what else you've received in this case? 9 A. Where were you reading dates? There is 10 one here without a date. 11 Q. It's at the top. It's at the top. 12 MR. DANDAR: At the very top, look, way up 13 here. 14 A. Oh, there it is. Okay. Sorry. Do you 15 mind if I put these in a chronological order? 16 Q. Well, that's ?? no, I don't mind. Have 17 you had a chance to review them? 18 A. Uh?huh. 19 Q. Now, you see that they total $8700? 20 A. I'll take your word for that. 21 Q. All right. 22 A. My math is not that good in this. 23 Q. Seven checks that total $8700. And that's 24 between approximately June and October 20th, 1997, 25 correct? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 356 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. All right. Now, my question to you is 3 what else have you received, you and/or Stacy 4 received from Mr. Dandar? 5 A. There was ?? I think I mentioned before 6 there was a letter of transmittal and some 7 documents. 8 Q. No, no, no. In the way of money? 9 A. Oh. $5,000. 10 Q. And when was that? 11 A. That was a couple of weeks ago. 12 Q. What else? 13 A. That's it. 14 Q. And what has Stacy received? 15 A. I don't know. 16 Q. So the total that you have received, 17 according to your testimony, is $13,700, if my math 18 is right, right? What I see is $2500, $750, $1200, 19 $750, $1500, $2000 and $5000. If my math is right, 20 that's $13,700. 21 A. This is June '97, two and a half years, 22 that's probably right. 23 Q. Okay. Now, what was the $5,000 for two 24 weeks ago? 25 A. For all the preparation for the work prior SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 357 1 ?? because I had been here ?? this was ?? this is 2 my third trip now, working with him, and so the two 3 depos and doing consulting work with him while I 4 was here. 5 Q. Well, did you submit a bill? 6 A. No. 7 Q. Is this a flat fee? 8 A. No. We just sat down and we just 9 calculated out the time and did it that way. 10 Q. So that doesn't cover today's testimony? 11 A. It anticipated some of the work. I worked 12 that out. 13 Q. And obviously your expenses have been 14 covered, right? 15 A. Yes. I also have to submit a bill to you 16 too, I understand. 17 Q. Well, I guess that's something that we can 18 discuss. 19 A. I'm sure we will. 20 Q. What did we establish that rate at, 21 Mr. Young? 22 A. $100 an hour. 23 Q. $100 an hour? Now, I asked you earlier, 24 to get back into where I want to go, you agree that 25 you've never been accepted by the court ?? by any SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 358 1 court as an expert on anything, right? 2 A. Not yet, that's correct. 3 Q. You have not written any ?? 4 THE COURT REPORTER: Can you hold on one 5 second? 6 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, sure. 7 (Discussion off the record.) 8 Q. You have not written any scholarly pieces 9 on religion, have you? 10 A. I'm not sure what you mean by scholarly. 11 Q. You understand scholarly works, don't you? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. You understand that there are people that 14 write intellectual research pieces that are 15 published that are described by people in whatever 16 the field it is as scholarly works in a particular 17 field, right? 18 A. Okay. 19 Q. Okay. And you've not written any 20 scholarly works as we've just defined it on 21 religion, have you? 22 A. No. 23 Q. Now, you haven't written any books on 24 religion? 25 A. No. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 359 1 Q. You don't have any advanced degree in 2 religion? 3 A. No. 4 Q. Or religious philosophy? 5 A. No. 6 Q. You haven't written any papers analyzing 7 or comparing religious philosophies? 8 A. No. 9 Q. Or ?? 10 A. Other than what one does in the 11 university, but that's not for publication. 12 Q. So like when I was going to school and I 13 got an assignment to write a paper you're talking 14 about? 15 A. In graduate school it's not quite the 16 same, but they are done for the university. 17 Q. All right. Now, you didn't ?? you don't 18 have a Ph.D. in anything? 19 A. No. 20 Q. Do you? 21 A. No. 22 Q. Now, you have not studied works by 23 religious scholars as to what constitutes a 24 religion, have you? 25 A. I think I have. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 360 1 Q. What are some of those scholars that you 2 have studied? 3 A. Well, just in the course of university 4 study one is required to ?? as part of my own 5 studies we undertook the study of religion, but as 6 within the philosophical context, there you have a 7 debate as to what is a scholar. We could go from 8 Aristotle on as to who would be ?? or St. Thomas 9 Aquinas. 10 Q. Well, how about somebody that's lived in 11 the twentieth century, can you name somebody that's 12 lived in the last 20 years who you have studied who 13 publishes works on religion? 14 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. You 15 asked him in the century, in the twentieth 16 century and in the last 20 years. Did you 17 mean to say 20 years because a century is 100? 18 MR. WEINBERG: Ken, do you ?? I know that 19 a century is 100, Ken. That's very good. 20 MR. DANDAR: I mean you switched, you 21 switched around. Thank you. I'm awake. 22 Q. Have you studied any, have you read any 23 scholarly works by any religious scholar who has 24 written with regard to religion or religious 25 philosophy in the twentieth century? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 361 1 A. Yes. 2 Q. Who? 3 A. Well, Stephen Kent from Canada, G. Gordon 4 Melton, who Scientology has hired as their expert, 5 Roy Wallis, who is a sociologist who wrote a book, 6 also did some papers, somebody else back when I was 7 reading Melton, I can't remember, but I found his 8 papers. 9 Q. Stephen Kent was a CAN member, wasn't he? 10 A. I don't know. 11 Q. Well, you don't know that? 12 A. No, I don't. 13 Q. When you read his works, did you ?? when 14 you read whatever it is that you read that he 15 wrote, did you learn that he was a member of the 16 Cult Awareness Network? 17 A. No, I didn't. 18 Q. That he was affiliated with the Cult 19 Awareness Network? 20 A. It was not contained in it. These were 21 university papers, scholarly works. They had ?? 22 Q. Are you aware that he lectured at Cult 23 Awareness Network conferences? 24 A. I have no idea, never heard of that. 25 Q. You didn't attend any of those? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 362 1 A. No. 2 Q. Anyone else? 3 A. Anyone else what? 4 Q. That you would ?? that has ?? that you 5 have read who wrote in the twentieth century as a 6 religious scholar on religion or comparative 7 religion or religious philosophy? 8 A. There were some others that I was reading 9 but if I wasn't particularly impressed with them, 10 no reason to retain the name other than the ones I 11 cited. 12 Q. You have been to CAN conferences, have you 13 not? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Cult Awareness Network conferences? 16 A. That's correct. 17 Q. You've never been to one? 18 A. Yes. Okay. Mr. Moxon is sitting there 19 with his jaw dropped. Can I get back to the 20 clarification because this always gets into ?? I 21 went to one. You asked plural. I'm trying to be 22 very precise. You said conferences. No, I have 23 not been to conferences. Have I been to a 24 conference? Yes. 25 MR. WEINBERG: Can you read me back what SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 363 1 my question was? 2 (The question and answer were read by the 3 reporter: 4 Question: You have been to CAN 5 conferences, have you not? 6 Answer: No.) 7 MR. WEINBERG: Okay. Stop that. 8 BY MR. WEINBERG: 9 Q. So you interpreted that as a question as 10 to whether or not you had been to more than one 11 conference and you thought the appropriate answer, 12 the truthful answer was no, is that your testimony? 13 A. You were very exact and that's why I 14 interjected even though you don't like me to do it, 15 to be very precise. 16 Q. All right. Now, are there any other 17 scholars, religious scholars that you can think of 18 whose works you have reviewed or read who wrote in 19 the twentieth century? 20 A. Other than the ones I cited, no. 21 Q. Now, you don't have a field of expertise, 22 do you? 23 A. Excuse me? In what? I don't understand 24 the question. 25 Q. You do not have a field of expertise, do SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 364 1 you? 2 A. I don't understand the question. 3 Q. Well, there is ?? you ?? Mr. Wallis, let's 4 use him for an example. What's his name? 5 A. Roy Wallis, he's deceased. 6 Q. All right. And he was a ?? 7 A. Sociologist. 8 Q. Where? 9 A. In England somewhere. I don't know what 10 part. 11 Q. All right. I mean he was an educated man, 12 right? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. Had advanced degrees? 15 A. I assume so. 16 Q. And you understand that his field of 17 expertise was religious philosophy or comparative 18 religion, you understand that, right? 19 A. I don't know what his field was. I just 20 enjoyed what I read. I don't really remember what 21 his field was. 22 Q. Well, I'm asking you what is your field, 23 if any? 24 A. If I were to write, I would just say 25 Scientology. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 365 1 Q. So you're an expert in Scientology? 2 A. Well, I've been retained as an expert but 3 you asked me what I ?? what can I be an expert in. 4 I can write about Scientology but I've been 5 retained as an expert by Mr. Dandar on the subject. 6 Q. And the reason I think you cited in your 7 direct testimony for your expertise is your 21 8 years as a member of the staff at Scientology, 9 right? 10 A. That's part of it. 11 Q. Well, and I think you said that whatever 12 it is that you're an expert in, there is only a 13 couple of other people in the world who were 14 experts in it and you named Jesse Prince and Stacy 15 Brooks, right, Stacy Young, your ex?wife. You 16 remember that, don't you? 17 A. No, that's not what I said. Do you want 18 me to clarify? 19 Q. That is what you said. We can go and 20 check. 21 A. No. Can I clarify? 22 Q. Well, let me just ask you this. The ?? do 23 you consider Jesse Prince and Stacy, your ex?wife, 24 to be qualified in the same field that you are 25 supposedly an expert in? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 366 1 A. We have strongly different emphasis, very 2 strongly different emphasis. 3 Q. Well, there's no ?? you can't think of any 4 peer review for your field, can you? You know what 5 a peer review is, don't you? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you haven't had any peer review with 8 regard to your field? 9 A. No. 10 Q. Or your work? 11 A. No. 12 Q. Even though there is no work, right? 13 There is no published work? 14 A. Well, we were talking about the Der 15 Spiegel article. 16 Q. The one you got paid $20,000 for? 17 A. Thank you for that. 18 Q. Is that right? You would not call that a 19 scholarly piece, would you? 20 A. No. It was a popular piece. I wrote a 21 piece for Quill magazine which is a magazine for 22 the Society of Professional Journalists, which is 23 semischolarly, even though it's not a ?? it's 24 certainly not a popular magazine. 25 Q. And that was not a scholarly piece either, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 367 1 was it? 2 A. Well, it's more of an educational piece, 3 not scholarly. 4 Q. That was how many pages long? 5 A. In the magazine, maybe five pages. 6 Q. Do you think it might have been one page? 7 A. No, it was not one page. 8 Q. Quill I'm talking about. 9 A. Quill, it was not one page. 10 Q. All right. And what did you get paid for 11 that? 12 A. I think it was $750. 13 Q. Now ?? but you haven't published anything 14 like you read of Mr. Wallis's? 15 A. No. 16 Q. Now, whatever your theory is, it hasn't 17 been generally accepted in any scholarly community 18 as far as you know, has it? 19 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 20 Q. Has it? 21 A. I don't know what you mean by my theory. 22 Q. Well, do you know ?? is there a scholarly 23 community for whatever it is that you're testifying 24 about? 25 A. On one subject, yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 368 1 Q. And that subject is? 2 A. On the religious ?? religiosity. 3 Q. Right, and we'll go over that scholarly 4 community. My question is has your theory, as you 5 testified to in your direct, been generally 6 accepted by that scholarly community? 7 MR. DANDAR: Objection to the form. 8 Q. Has it? 9 A. Hasn't even been discussed. 10 Q. So the answer is no, it hasn't been 11 accepted, right? 12 A. No, it hasn't been discussed. 13 MR. DANDAR: Object to the form. 14 MR. WEINBERG: What's wrong with the 15 form? 16 MR. DANDAR: What theory are you talking 17 about? This man has never expressed a theory 18 in his direct. 19 MR. WEINBERG: Bingo, Ken. I mean that's 20 ?? I mean that's the problem. 21 MR. DANDAR: His opinions of what he 22 observed. 23 MR. WEINBERG: That's the problem. And 24 under the Daubert test ?? 25 MR. DANDAR: We're not in Daubert SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 369 1 expertise. 2 MR. WEINBERG: Well, guess what, we ?? 3 MR. DANDAR: We're in a different type of 4 expertise. There's no other type? 5 MR. WEINBERG: Well, I guess what you're 6 going to have to do is ?? 7 MR. DANDAR: Tell Judge Moody that. 8 MR. WEINBERG: No, you tell Judge Moody 9 that. 10 MR. DANDAR: Well, we'll see. 11 BY MR. WEINBERG: 12 Q. Now, in the deposition ?? in your direct 13 testimony you defined ?? I asked you for your 14 definition of religion. Do you remember that? 15 A. Uh?huh, yes. 16 Q. And you told me that religion was a landed 17 organization that should be fully recognized by a 18 government as a valid operating religion. Do you 19 remember that? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And you explained that by landed 22 organization you mean something that you could 23 locate or find, right? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And fully recognized as a valid operating SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 370 1 religion by government was sort of 2 self?explanatory, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And you acknowledged that Scientology, the 5 religion of Scientology was a landed organization, 6 right? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. And you acknowledged that it has been 9 fully recognized by the United States government as 10 a valid operating religion, correct? 11 A. I never said that. 12 Q. But that's true, isn't it? 13 A. No, it's not. I even said the IRS does 14 not recognize religion and they are very strenuous 15 on that point. They only recognize the nonprofit 16 status of an organization. 17 Q. As a religious institution? 18 A. Still, they do not recognize ?? 19 Q. Is that what they recognize? 20 A. They recognize it as a nonprofit. 21 Q. Religious ?? 22 A. They do not grant religious status. 23 Q. They recognize it in the nonprofit status 24 as a church, don't they? 25 A. That is correct. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 371 1 Q. Okay. Now, you also testified that you 2 yourself, through your own efforts, when you were a 3 staff member in the '70s, obtained recognition of 4 Scientology in its church or religious status with 5 the State Department and the Labor Department, 6 correct? 7 A. Yes, that's correct. 8 Q. And you got with the State Department, you 9 were able to achieve with the State Department 10 what? Explain that to the jury. 11 A. The granting of religious status with 12 regard to ?? how would I word it? The operations 13 of the State Department in this particular case, it 14 was the granting ?? recognition of ministerial 15 status for Church of Scientology ministers, that 16 they could enter as religious ministers, which 17 required a certain type of visa. 18 Q. Right, enter the United States, these are 19 people that were not US citizens? 20 A. Correct, in an immigration matter. 21 Q. And you ?? explain to the jury what you 22 obtained from the Labor Department through your 23 efforts. 24 A. Same thing, granting of that, but it was 25 more of a ?? there was no labor statute that we SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 372 1 were trying to gain, it was just recognition, and 2 mainly their agreement to destroy certain records 3 or to have them corrected. 4 Q. Okay. And these were significant 5 achievements in the 1970s? 6 A. Considerable. 7 Q. Right. And it was a significant 8 achievement in 1993 when the IRS recognized tax 9 exempt status as a church for the various churches 10 of Scientology, correct? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that occurred in 1993 after one of the 13 longest investigations by the IRS ever, correct? 14 A. I don't know. I can't speak to it. I 15 know it was long but I ?? 16 Q. You know they went over probably a decade, 17 don't you? 18 A. I don't know that that investigation for 19 that exemption lasted a decade. I know that there 20 has been constant, you know, fights for 40 years. 21 Q. Right. And you know that in the ?? at the 22 ?? sort of the last few years before the tax exempt 23 status was granted, that there was an intensive 24 investigation and audit as to the entire Church of 25 Scientology organization by the IRS, you know that? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 373 1 A. No, I don't. 2 Q. Well, you've ?? I believe I remember you 3 testifying that you, at the expense of Mr. Haney, 4 went to Washington and copied a bunch of documents 5 concerning the tax exemption. 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And you did that in 1999? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. And you understood from that and from your 10 involvement with regard to Scientology that the IRS 11 considered all kinds of accusations concerning the 12 Church of Scientology, including accusations from 13 people like you that had left the church? 14 A. I don't know that. 15 Q. Well, you know that ?? 16 A. I never saw my name in these documents or 17 the names of any others. 18 Q. Well, you understand that Larry 19 Wollersheim, for example, was interviewed and 20 talked at length with the IRS people concerning the 21 Church of Scientology? 22 A. First time I've heard that. 23 Q. And you understand that amongst the things 24 that the IRS looked at was the accusations 25 concerning the Sea Organization, some of the same SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 374 1 accusations that you've made in this case? 2 A. I saw the response in the papers. 3 Q. Right. And that the issue was whether or 4 not there was truly corporate integrity with regard 5 to RTC and SCI and the various religious 6 corporations that had been created and we'll go 7 through later in 1981, '82, you understand that? 8 A. I just lost your question, Mr. Weinberg. 9 Q. You understand that amongst the things 10 that the IRS looked at in deciding to give the 11 various Churches of Scientology tax exempt status 12 as a church was the issue of corporate integrity 13 and whether or not, in fact, the corporations were 14 real corporations that operated as corporations? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And that was because, among other things, 17 people had been alleging, like you do now, that, in 18 fact, there was no corporate integrity? 19 A. I don't know that. 20 Q. You don't know that? 21 A. No, I don't. 22 Q. And you don't know that they looked at ?? 23 well, you do know from the papers that the IRS 24 looked at what the Sea Org was and whether or not 25 the Sea Org had anything to do with the integrity SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 375 1 of the corporations in Scientology, you know that 2 because you looked at the documents, right? 3 A. Yes, I did, but the matter of corporate 4 integrity went back 30, 40 years, long before the 5 Sea Org ever showed up. It was long an issue. 6 Q. Now, let me have marked ?? oh, well, let 7 me have marked as an exhibit the following 8 documents. 9 (Discussion off the record.) 10 BY MR. WEINBERG: 11 Q. Now, you spent a week in 1999 at the IRS 12 reading room going through all of the IRS files 13 with regard to the tax exempt issue, right? 14 A. No. 15 Q. Through a lot of them? 16 A. No. 17 Q. Through any of the records with regard to 18 the tax exemption? 19 A. Okay. I'll keep trying this. I was not 20 there a week. 21 Q. Well, how many days were you there? 22 A. Probably about five days. 23 Q. Okay. And while you were there for five 24 days, you were going through the ?? all of the 25 files that were made available to you as a member SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 376 1 of the public concerning the tax exempt status that 2 was granted to the various Churches of Scientology, 3 right? 4 A. Not really. 5 Q. Well, why don't you just tell the jury ?? 6 A. Can I correct? 7 Q. Why don't you just tell the jury what you 8 went through in that five days in Washington that 9 were being financed by Mr. Haney. 10 A. Okay. That I can respond to. I basically 11 had to ?? I was ?? 12 Q. Can you hold on one second? I'm sorry. I 13 apologize but I've been out of the office for a 14 week. 15 A. Is that my check? 16 Q. No. 17 A. The FOI room had 1023s just available, 18 just on shelves, and so I had to determine ?? there 19 was too much to read, far too much to read and look 20 at, so I had to determine what it was I wanted to 21 copy. So I spent time doing that and then I spent 22 literally days copying the material and getting it 23 all in order to read later. My review was more 24 based on the need to determine what it is I wanted 25 to copy. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 377 1 Q. Well, you learned from your review that 2 the IRS exemption rulings in 1993 classified, among 3 others, the Flag Service, the Church of Scientology 4 Flag Service Organization, which is the defendant 5 in this case here, the Church of Scientology 6 International, which is the mother church, and RTC, 7 which is the holder of the marks, as churches 8 and ?? as churches and they were given church 9 status, you understand that, right? 10 A. For the purpose of tax exemption. 11 Q. Right. And you also understand, do you 12 not, that although every organization classified as 13 a church under the code, the tax code, is a tax 14 exempt religious organization, that not every 15 exempt religious organization is classified as a 16 church, you know that, don't you? 17 A. You're pushing it farther than I know 18 about the tax laws, but I understand that, yes. 19 Q. All right. And that church status under 20 ?? by the IRS is limited to those tax exempt 21 religious organizations that demonstrate certain 22 associational and denominational characteristics, 23 you understand that, don't you? 24 A. Yes. 25 Q. And that the IRS employs a facts and SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 378 1 circumstances test in determining an organization's 2 church status, you understand that, don't you? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And that amongst the things that they look 5 at are a distinct legal existence, you understand 6 that? 7 A. Yes. 8 Q. A recognized creed and form of worship, do 9 you understand that? 10 A. Yes. 11 Q. A definite and distinct ecclesiastical 12 government within the church, you understand that? 13 A. Yes. 14 Q. A formal code of doctrine and discipline, 15 do you understand that? 16 A. Yes. 17 Q. A distinct religious history, do you 18 understand that? 19 A. Yes. 20 Q. A membership not associated with any other 21 church or denomination, do you understand that? 22 A. Yes. Can we do them all at once? 23 Q. We'll do some in a row then. Do you 24 understand that it also ?? the test also includes 25 an organization of ordained ministers, ordained SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 379 1 ministers selected after completing prescribed 2 studies, a literature of its own, established 3 places of worship, regular congregations, regular 4 religious services, Sunday schools or similar 5 programs for religious instruction of the young, 6 and schools or similar formal programs for 7 preparation of its ministers, you understand that 8 all those things are considered in this facts and 9 circumstances test in determining whether or not an 10 organization has church status or not? 11 A. Yes. 12 Q. And that the IRS determined after applying 13 its test following a lengthy investigation that the 14 various churches of Scientology met this church 15 test, you understand that? 16 A. I understand that. 17 Q. Is that correct? 18 A. They did that. 19 (Defendant's Exhibit Nos. 6 and 7 were 20 marked for identification.) 21 Q. Okay. Now, let me have marked these two 22 documents. Let's say one is 6 and I'll put that on 23 this Department of State thing, and one is 7 which 24 I will put on the Department of Labor one. I hand 25 these to you, 6 and 7, and do you recognize, sir, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 380 1 those two letters? 2 A. Yes, I do. 3 Q. And they were actually letters sent to you 4 when you were a staff member in the Church of 5 Scientology, right? 6 A. They sure were. 7 Q. And the 6 is dated December 30th, 1974, is 8 that right? 9 A. Yes. 10 Q. And it's addressed by the Department of 11 State to the Reverend Vaughn Young, right? 12 A. Yes. 13 Q. And in fact, you were a minister of the 14 Church of Scientology, weren't you? 15 A. Yes. 16 Q. And this is a result of your work to get 17 the Church of Scientology recognized by the 18 Department of State with regard to this visa issue, 19 right? 20 A. Yes. 21 Q. And the person writing you is some 22 official from the Department of State, right? 23 A. Yes. 24 Q. And it says: Dear Mr. Young, I'm happy to 25 inform you that our review of the full record SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 381 1 relating to your church has led us to conclude that 2 it is a religious denomination having a bona fide 3 organization in the United States. Do you see 4 that? 5 A. Yes. 6 MR. DANDAR: I'm going to object, move to 7 strike. It's hearsay. It's not offered by 8 the deponent. It's not admissible at trial. 9 Q. Now, you would agree that that letter is 10 certainly a letter that would suggest the 11 recognition by a United States government agent ?? 12 agency as early as December of 1974 of the Church 13 of Scientology as a valid operating religion? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. Okay. Now, then let's go to the next 16 document, which is Number 7. Do you recognize that 17 letter? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. And I have trouble reading the date here. 20 Do you know what year that was? It's obviously in 21 the 1970s but can you remember when that was? 22 A. I think it's November 25, 1975. 23 Q. Okay. And again, this time it's from the 24 Department of Labor, is that right? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 382 1 Q. And it's again addressed to the Reverend 2 Vaughn Young, correct? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. And at that point you were a minister in 5 the Church of Scientology, correct? 6 A. Yes. 7 Q. And this letter is a letter that is as a 8 result of an application that you made on behalf of 9 the Church of Scientology, is that right? 10 A. No. 11 Q. What is it? 12 A. This is basically a letter of concession 13 after a number of visits by me and correspondence. 14 There was no application per se. There wasn't even 15 an application of the Department of State letter. 16 Q. Okay. Well, in the second paragraph, just 17 so that I'm not misreading this, it says: In our 18 recommendation ?? this is the Department of Labor 19 ?? we advised the Employment and Training 20 Administration that a review of the relevant data 21 had led us to conclude that the Church of 22 Scientology had established itself as a bona fide 23 religious organization and that it should, 24 therefore, be recognized as such for purposes of 25 Schedule A, which has to do with some wage law. Is SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 383 1 that right? 2 A. Yes. 3 MR. DANDAR: Objection; hearsay. Move to 4 strike. 5 Q. Now, you would agree, would you not, that 6 the Department of Labor is an agency of the United 7 States government and that by this letter it 8 certainly recognized the Church of Scientology as a 9 valid operating religion, is that right? 10 A. For the purpose of the Labor Department, 11 yes. You seem to be establishing my credentials, 12 Mr. Weinberg. 13 Q. Credentials as a minister, right? 14 A. As an expert on getting the religious 15 nature of Scientology. 16 Q. And what involvement did you have in 17 attaining the certification or ruling by the IRS 18 that the Church of Scientologies were a church 19 under its facts and circumstances test? 20 A. In 1993? 21 Q. Yeah. 22 A. Nothing. 23 Q. Now, let me show you what we'll mark as 24 the next exhibit. You can just leave that in ?? 25 A. Can I ask you a technical question? Can I SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 384 1 get copies of these? 2 MR. DANDAR: I don't have the Department 3 of Labor one, no. Do you have it? 4 MR. WEINBERG: I gave it to you. 5 MR. DANDAR: Is that this one? 6 MR. WEINBERG: No. Here, let me have 7 that one back. 8 THE WITNESS: This is what Labor looks 9 like. 10 MR. WEINBERG: No, no, I've got it. I 11 thought I had given it to you. 12 MR. DANDAR: The one you just took back, 13 is that an exhibit? 14 MR. WEINBERG: It's not yet an exhibit. 15 (Discussion off the record.) 16 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 8 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 BY MR. WEINBERG: 19 Q. Let me show you what we'll mark as 20 Exhibit 8 and ask you if you recognize Exhibit 8. 21 MR. DANDAR: Do you have a copy for me? 22 MR. WEINBERG: Yeah. I'm sorry. That's 23 probably what I had given you. Here. Here. 24 A. Okay. 25 Q. So this Exhibit 8 would be a letter that SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 385 1 you wrote with regard to your request concerning 2 the approval by the Department of Labor? 3 A. Yes. 4 Q. Okay. So the fruits of that labor were 5 Exhibit 7? 6 A. Ultimately. My letter that you got as 7 Exhibit 8 was July and then the concession letter 8 was November. 9 Q. Okay. 10 A. So that's a few months difference. 11 Q. In this letter, in the fifth paragraph you 12 were essentially asking the Department of State or 13 you were ?? you were essentially seeking approval 14 from the Labor Department as you had obtained from 15 the State Department that Scientology was a bona 16 fide religious organization in the United States, 17 right? 18 A. Yes. 19 Q. Let's put this down. 20 A. It was really nice that you found these. 21 I like it. 22 Q. I'm glad. Now, in the materials that you 23 reviewed in Washington, you found the ?? basically, 24 the certification letters concerning the Church of 25 Scientology, is that right, by the IRS? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 386 1 A. I assume you mean that's the letter that 2 was issued out to each organization granting the 3 tax exemption? 4 Q. Yes. 5 A. Yes, I saw those. 6 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 9 was marked for 7 identification.) 8 Q. I'll just mark it as the next exhibit, 9 Exhibit 9, and ask you if you recognize this to be 10 the one that was sent to Flag Service in or about 11 October 1 of 1993? 12 A. This seems to be ?? what you handed me is 13 incomplete. In fact, it cuts off in the middle of 14 a sentence. 15 Q. You're right. 16 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 10 was marked for 17 identification.) 18 Q. Let me show you as Exhibit 10 ?? 19 MR. DANDAR: I don't have that one yet. 20 Which one is that? 21 MR. WEINBERG: 8. 22 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, I've got 8. 23 THE WITNESS: You've got 8? 24 MR. DANDAR: Yeah. 25 Q. Once we get a complete one, we'll remark SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 387 1 Exhibit 9. Exhibit 10, do you recognize this as 2 the ?? 3 A. So we're going to hold off on that one you 4 just handed me? 5 Q. Yes, because you're right, it's 6 incomplete. 7 ?? the October 1993 acceptance letter with 8 regard to CSI, which is the mother church, from the 9 IRS? 10 A. I mean I can't ?? I can't verify this. I 11 just ?? 12 Q. Well, didn't you see that in what you 13 copied? 14 A. I saw a letter. I don't know that that's 15 the letter but I'm not going to question the point, 16 Mr. Weinberg. 17 Q. Okay. But you do ?? 18 A. I concede that there is a letter and 19 that's probably it. 20 Q. Recognizing CSI as a church for tax exempt 21 purposes? 22 A. Yes. 23 Q. And you do acknowledge that CSI is what's 24 been described as the mother church of Scientology, 25 right? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 388 1 A. That's the PR statement. 2 Q. Right. Well, I mean we'll get to the 3 corporate structure, but just as a prelude, I mean 4 in 1981, 1982, CSI was incorporated, correct? 5 A. I don't know the year of incorporation. 6 Q. Well, you were around then, you were in 7 ASI at that time, right? 8 A. I was in ASI early '82. 9 Q. Right. So you ?? you remember that '81 10 and '82, CSI, RTC and various other Churches of 11 Scientology were incorporated? 12 A. Right. 13 Q. And in some cases reincorporated, right? 14 A. Yes. 15 Q. And in the case of CSI, it was 16 incorporated and entered into a license agreement, 17 a license agreement with RTC with regard to using 18 the various marks and trademarks regarding 19 Scientology that had been, in essence, ceded to or 20 given to RTC by Mr. Hubbard, right? 21 A. That's a very complex question but, in 22 essence, to the point of CSI had the marks and et 23 cetera, yes. 24 Q. CSI entered into a licensing agreement? 25 A. Yes. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 389 1 Q. RTC had the marks, right? 2 A. Yes. 3 Q. And RTC had the responsibility to preserve 4 the purity and integrity of Scientology, right? 5 A. That's the statement. They had the marks 6 and they had the right to enforce them. 7 Q. Right. And then CSI said was given the 8 authorization under its agreement with RTC to, in 9 essence, sublicense the marks to the various other 10 Churches of Scientology, including Flag Service 11 Organization, right? 12 A. Yes, at which point then it did become, in 13 that form, the mother church, yes. 14 Q. Right. And so that's where I was leading 15 to, and then it became the mother church, 16 basically? 17 A. Basically, yes. 18 Q. Right. Okay. Now, from your review of 19 the IRS files this year, you understand that all of 20 these, RTC, CSI, Flag Service Organization, and 21 various other Churches of Scientology in the United 22 States were recognized as churches by the IRS for 23 tax exempt purposes, correct? 24 A. I can't say that because I don't remember 25 what things like building ?? what is it, Building SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 390 1 Management Services, RTC ?? I mean Building 2 Management Services was granted recognition and 3 it's certainly not a church. RTC is not ?? it 4 never called itself a church, so I can say that 5 they were all given tax exemption. 6 Q. Well, let me show you the RTC one. 7 A. That's fine. 8 Q. And see if we can clarify this. 9 A. I don't question the tax exemption. I 10 just don't know which status BMS was given. 11 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 11 was marked for 12 identification.) 13 Q. This is Exhibit 11. Do you recognize that 14 as the original October 1993 letter that was sent 15 to Religious Technology Center, RTC, by the IRS in 16 response to its tax exempt application determining 17 that it was exempt from federal income tax under 18 Section 501(A) of the Internal Revenue Code as an 19 organization described in 501(C)3? 20 A. Yes, it says that. 21 Q. And let me also show you what we'll mark 22 as the next exhibit, which is Exhibit 12. 23 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 12 was marked for 24 identification.) 25 Q. This is a letter ?? SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 391 1 A. Can you tell what the date is? 2 Q. No, but I know that it is after, as you 3 can see from the text, the October 1993 exemption 4 letter. 5 A. Okay. 6 Q. All right. And just so it's clear ?? I 7 mean the Warren McShane, you know who he is, right? 8 A. Yes. 9 Q. This is a letter from the IRS to Warren 10 McShane and it says: Dear Mr. McShane, we are 11 aware that the recent publication by the Wall 12 Street Journal of the text of the 1993 closing 13 agreement to which RTC is a party has focused 14 renewed attention on the IRS's determinations that 15 the various individual Churches of Scientology, 16 including your church, that is the RTC, separately 17 qualify as tax exempt under Section 501(C)3 of the 18 code. You have requested that we restate our 19 position on the status of the exemption ruling and 20 certain matters relating to the closing agreement. 21 First, we wish to reaffirm that the exemption 22 determination letter issued to RTC on October 1, 23 1993, remains in good standing. By that letter the 24 Service recognized RTC as a separate corporate 25 entity, as exempt from Federal Income Tax, as an SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 392 1 exclusively charitable and religious organization 2 within the meaning of the Section 501(C)3 of the 3 code. The determination resulted from the 4 application of the requirements of Section 501(C)3 5 to the voluminous information provided in response 6 to comprehensive and detailed requests by the 7 Service. In order to issue the letter, the Service 8 determined that RTC was organized and operated 9 exclusively for charitable and religious purposes. 10 Now, do you understand that, in fact, RTC 11 just as the other churches of Scientology, were 12 recognized under the facts and circumstances test, 13 do you understand that? 14 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Move to strike. 15 Hearsay. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Can I finish my question? 17 MR. DANDAR: You asked the question 18 already. That's why I waited for you ?? 19 MR. WEINBERG: No, you interrupted me. 20 You interrupted. 21 MR. DANDAR: Move to strike your reading 22 of a letter that's hearsay, not in evidence, 23 not admissible. 24 MR. WEINBERG: Well, actually it is in 25 evidence. I just put it in evidence. SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 393 1 MR. DANDAR: Yeah, right. Lack of 2 predicate. 3 MR. WEINBERG: Oh, no. You called him as 4 an expert, supposedly, on whether Scientology 5 is a religion and now what we're showing is 6 that, A, he was responsible for getting two 7 government agencies to recognize it as a bona 8 fide religion and, B, the IRS recognized it as 9 a ?? the Church of Scientology as a church. 10 So I understand your objection. 11 MR. DANDAR: I understand you're reading 12 hearsay documents. That's my objection. 13 BY MR. WEINBERG: 14 Q. Now, do you understand that the IRS 15 recognized RTC amongst the other Church of 16 Scientology organizations as tax exempt for 17 religious purposes as well, do you understand that? 18 A. That was already done with this 19 Defendant's Exhibit 11. I wish we'd have finished 20 the letter though. 21 Q. Do you know that similar letters were 22 written to Flag? 23 A. No. Similar to Mr. McShane's, huh? 24 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 13 was marked for 25 identification.) SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 394 1 Q. Let me show you what's marked as 2 Exhibit 13, which is a similar letter written to 3 Flag, and now the date is clear, March 20th, 1998, 4 to Mary Voegeding, Church of Scientology at Flag, 5 which, in essence, clarifies or reaffirms the 1993 6 letter. 7 MR. DANDAR: Same objection as to form. 8 Q. And did you run across that letter in 9 your copyings? 10 A. No, I don't remember seeing these, because 11 these ?? what I had was the 1023 files. These were 12 not part of the 1023 file. 13 MR. WEINBERG: What's the exhibit number 14 on that one? 15 MR. DANDAR: 13. 16 A. The last one was 13. 17 (Defendant's Exhibit No. 14 was marked for 18 identification.) 19 Q. And finally, let me show you Exhibit 14, 20 which is a letter of the same date, March of '98, 21 from the same woman, Ms. Petschek, P?e?t?s?c?h?e?k, 22 of the IRS, to Heber Jentzsch, with regard to CSI, 23 reaffirming the 1993 letter. 24 MR. DANDAR: Same objection. 25 Q. You know what? I can't find one of SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 395 1 these. 2 All right. And did you run ?? you didn't 3 run across that letter in your copyings, did you? 4 A. No. As I said, it's not part of the 1023 5 file. You wouldn't happen to have a copy of the 6 closing agreement, would you. 7 Q. I don't believe that that's a public 8 document. 9 A. Oh, rats. 10 MR. TITUS: By the way, I object to 11 comments by the witness that aren't responsive 12 to questions, such as the last one, and I move 13 to strike. 14 BY MR. WEINBERG: 15 Q. Now, you would acknowledge that the 16 definition of religion that you gave in your 17 deposition and reaffirmed today, the landed 18 organization that is fully recognized as a valid 19 operating religion, is rather simplistic as 20 compared to the religious ?? to the test that 21 religious scholars use as to what is a religion or 22 constitutes ?? 23 A. You weren't asking me for a scholarly one. 24 You just wanted one for ?? 25 Q. I just asked you that question. Do you SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 396 1 recognize that, that yours is rather simplistic as 2 compared to the test that is applied by religious 3 scholars? 4 A. Of course. It was intended that way. 5 Q. And that in a variety of forms, religious 6 scholars basically apply a test as to whether 7 something constitutes a religion, that there would 8 be a well?defined belief system which issues into 9 religious practices, rights, ceremonies, and which 10 sustain a body of adherence or people that follow 11 it, do you agree that that ?? a test something like 12 that is found in every religious scholarly analysis 13 as to whether something constitutes a religion or 14 not? 15 A. That or something similar to it. 16 MR. DANDAR: Objection. Objection. 17 Q. And you would agree that that test or a 18 test like that that I just described, as utilized 19 by these religious scholars, is a well tested 20 methodology to analyze whether or not something 21 like Scientology is or is not a religion? 22 A. That would be a seriously debatable point 23 amongst scholars, I think. 24 Q. I'm talking about the methodology, the 25 test of religion that ?? as we've just gone over, SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 397 1 that is, in one form or another, utilized by 2 religious scholars, that that test is a well?tested 3 methodology in the field of religion or religious 4 philosophy? 5 A. I would say heavily tested. 6 (Mr. Prince entered the room.) 7 MR. WEINBERG: Let the record reflect 8 that, for reasons that are unclear, Mr. Jesse 9 Prince has arrived. 10 MR. DANDAR: Unclear? I can see him 11 perfectly well. 12 (Discussion off the record.) 13 THE WITNESS: While they are getting a 14 chair and you guys are doing your documents, 15 I'm just going to hit the john. 16 MR. WEINBERG: Sure. 17 (Recess.) 18 PLEASE REFER to Volume III for further 19 Trial Testimony. 20 NOTE: The original and one copy of the 21 foregoing Trial Testimony will be held by 22 Mr. Weinberg; copy to Mr. Dandar. 23 ARRANGEMENTS for the reading and signing 24 of the Trial Testimony transcript will be handled 25 by the office of Mr. Kennan G. Dandar of the firm SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 398 1 Dandar & Dandar, 5340 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 2 201, Tampa, Florida. 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 McPherson v Church of Scientology / 97?01235 399 1 SIGNATURE PAGE 2 Volume II 3 I, ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG, have read the 4 foregoing Trial Testimony given by me on 5 February 9 & 10, 2000, in Tampa, Florida, and the 6 following corrections, if any, should be made in 7 the transcript: 8 PAGE LINE CORRECTION AND REASON THEREFOR 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 Subject to the above corrections, if any, 19 my testimony reads as given by me in the foregoing 20 Trial Testimony. 21 SIGNED at _________________, Florida, this 22 __________ day of ____________________ , 20___. 23 24 ________________________________ 25 ROBERT VAUGHN YOUNG SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 400 1 CERTIFICATE OF REPORTER OATH 2 3 STATE OF FLORIDA 4 COUNTY OF POLK 5 6 I, the undersigned authority, hereby 7 certify that the witness named herein personally 8 appeared before me and was previously duly sworn. 9 WITNESS my hand and official seal this 10 12th day of February, 2000. 11 12 13 14 ________________________________ 15 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR 16 Notary Public ? State of Florida 17 My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000 401 1 REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE 2 STATE OF FLORIDA 3 COUNTY OF POLK 4 I, Susan D. Wasilewski, Registered 5 Professional Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter 6 and Notary Public in and for the State of Florida 7 at large, hereby certify that the witness appeared 8 before me for the taking of the foregoing Trial 9 Testimony, and that I was authorized to and did 10 stenographically and electronically report the 11 Trial Testimony; and that a review of the 12 transcript was requested; and that the transcript 13 is a true and complete record of my stenographic 14 notes and recordings thereof. 15 I FURTHER CERTIFY that I am neither an 16 attorney nor counsel for the parties to this cause, 17 nor a relative or employee of any attorney or party 18 connected with this litigation, nor am I 19 financially interested in the outcome of this 20 action. 21 DATED THIS 12th day of February, 2000, at 22 Lakeland, Polk County, Florida. 23 _______________________________ 24 Susan D. Wasilewski, RPR, CRR My Commission Expires: 10?23?03 25 Transcript ordered: 2?10?00 SCLAFANI WILLIAMS COURT REPORTERS, INC. LAKELAND, FLORIDA (863) 688?5000