Kid suspended for practicing 'witchcraft'
Discussion
National/World News
IndependentDan
posted 10-21-98 07:08 AM ET
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This article shows how dumb and intolerant many Americans are
of any religion that isn't Christianity. The school should be
sued for violating the kid's right to freely practice her
religion. The Sunpaper writer should be chastised for
including the irrelevant fact that the child's mother is a
transexual--as if to point and laugh at the mom and daughter
for being different/unconventional.
DUMB.
drkqueen
posted 10-21-98 07:39 AM ET
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How can a school official be so ignorant about a religion?
Wicca has been around for ages, if not under the current name,
then under another. It is so ridiculous that a girl would be
expelled for "casting a spell".
What's next? The Burning times all over again? If we wiccans
can respect the faiths of others, why can't ours be respected
as well?
LordGreystoke
posted 10-21-98 08:55 AM ET
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Well, I'm not a Wiccan and I know very little about it.
Further, I am skeptical of most religions. However, this is
America. A nation that was founded on the basis of free
religion. I agree, wholeheartedly, with a previous poster who
mentioned that the mother's transsexuality is irrelevant. It
is more than just irrelevant, it is a smear, and it is
irresponsible journalism. I am quite sure that the girl who
thought she had a spell cast on her was pulling a bit of
paranoid, christian-centric melodrama to punish Schoonover for
not believing they she 'should'. And for the school
administrators to use the word "bizarre" in relation to
Schoonover's claim of being a witch is absolutely appalling.
Would they say that a practicing Hindu is bizarre? How about a
Buddhist, or a Mormon, or a Muslim? This guy should be more
careful about the words he chooses.
kayat
posted 10-21-98 09:59 AM ET
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Man, are you guys overreacting! The kid wasn't trying to
practice her religion, like the article said, it was a
misunderstanding. And how was the religion 'disrespected'? The
issue was a percieved threat, however or whatever the means,
and not religion.
Why are you so outraged that they would chastise someone
practicing her religion by casting a spell, but indifferent
when someone is chastised for praying silently in school or
reading her bible during free time?
And yes, the means of that threat is a bit odd,
out-of-the-ordinary, unconventional or more succinctly,
bizarre--the principal was just calling it like he saw it.
They were not being intolerant, and they admitted their
ignorance and by saying they need to research this religion a
little more before taking further action.
Any religion whose practices potentially bring harm on people
should be kept out of schools (I'm NOT saying wicca does, I
don't know).
As far as the transsexual issue--if you're going to report on
a religion, you're going to report on the type of people that
belong to that religion, esp if its out-of-the-ordinary.
Apocalypse7
posted 10-21-98 10:16 AM ET
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That is a stereotypical statement to say that you need to look
at the type of people that belong to the religion.
SteveC
posted 10-21-98 10:27 AM ET
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I would agree with Kayat that she was not practicing her
religion. However, in reference to the comment about the "type
of people that belong to that religion" - I don't recall any
articles about Christianity where it talks about their
transexuals or any other "out-of-the-ordinary" people in that
religion. On "how was the religion 'disrespected'" I believe
that the words "whether it's a true religion or not. I have to
do some further research." would be the issue.
On the action - What was the threat? The allegation that a
student put a "hex" on someone? Nothing in the article
described the alleged "hex" by the student. On the incident
with the rocks, she didn't even write the words on the rocks
or cross out the names; so why isn't the friend being singled
out?
A final point - "Lee [the principal] said he was troubled by
Schoonover's admission that she practices witchcraft and by
the effect that knowledge is having on some students." Would
Lee be as concerned over a if fundamentalist Christian student
stated their beliefs? Would he discipline a student who told
me that "I was going to hell" because of my beliefs?
scason
posted 10-21-98 10:41 AM ET
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Kayat,
Your point that the principal did not necessarily disrespect
Wicca is well taken. He is obviously and admittedly ignorant
about it, tho, and says that he finds it bizarre that one of
his students admits to practicing Witchcraft. This implies
that he believes that if someone practices W'craft, then they
should keep it a secret, presumably because it is in some way
reprehensible. That is a profound, if perhaps unconscious and
unintended disrespect.
Further, Mr. Rivera and the Sun's editors also display their
lack of regard for the religion by placing the word
'Witchcraft' in quotes in the headline, and by failing to
capitalize it. Here's an amusing exercise: cut and paste the
article text into your favorite word processor, do global
replacements to substitute the name of the Christian or Jewish
denomination of your choice for 'Wicca' and 'Witchcraft',
'prayer' for 'spell' or 'hex', and 'Christinaity' for
'neo-paganism', and then read the story again. Is your
emotional response to the altered story any different?
To another of your points, I'm not aware of any of any student
who has been "chastised for praying silently in school or
reading her bible during free time". I would hope that the Sun
would report on such an incident with the same zeal that it
has shown in reporting the incident under discussion here.
Altho I am not a Christian, I would be upset if this happened
to a Christian for practicing her religion.
As for the issue of the reporting of the mother's
transexualism, it was obviously a bit sensational, even lurid.
I don't wonder that it was reported, since newspapers are in
the business of reporting things that most people, bless their
black and shriveled little hearts, want to read. My question
is how the Mr. Rivera happened to know that detail. Was it
volunteered by Ms. Harper? by a neighbor? by the Mr. Lee?
Interesting...
Jainu
posted 10-21-98 10:59 AM ET
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I was afraid something of this nature would happen eventually.
I will not be surprised if more things don't come up. We had
"The Craft", then "Charmed" a weekly show on the WB, and now
"Practical Magic". People watch these shows and get all the
wrong ideas and have no clue about things. I have to admit
that "Charmed" & "Practical Magic" have improved over "The
Craft". It still doesn't educate people. I think our goal as
witches should be to educate the public where ever and when
ever we can. Hollywood is doing us a service and a dis-service
at the same time. A little knowldge is a dangerous thing.
Blessings & Light
Jainu
(Wiccan HP, Father of 2, Bookkeeper)
Vampyre
posted 10-21-98 12:14 PM ET
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a few points..
1. I have never heard of a person not being allowed to do
silent prayer or to read their religious book of preference.
(In fact there are many schools that do practice old
traditions because they violate others beliefs)
2. Practices in witch craft can be as different as their are
types of Christianity. (IE..Roman Catholic, Methodist,
Lutheran) Each has thier own way of doing things and their own
beliefs. There are even those pagan religions that do "black
magic". I don't think this is the case here.
3. The "Type" of people that practice a religion has no
bearing on what kind of religion it is. Or have we not heard
of the fact that their are gay priest??? Please people, that
comment about the mother was useless information that need not
have been in the story.
4. The "friend" that wrote on the rocks should be involved
too. Also isn't graphity on school grounds against school
policy as well? Shouldn't the girl that wrote her name on the
rock, in the first, place be punished???
Just a few thoughts for ya'll to ponder...People really need
to open their minds to other peoples beliefs. Not necessarily
believe in them or follow them, just open your minds to the
fact that they are free to have their own opinions and
beliefs. :)
LordGreystoke
posted 10-21-98 12:53 PM ET
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Of course, a good, healthy dose of atheism might be the cure
for a lot of the world's problems. If we could get over this
notion of a god-thing, then we wouldn't get offended by people
whose god-thing is different from our own. We wouldn't be
offended if people told us they didn't believe in any
god-thing. We wouldn't torture and kill people because they
have more than one god-thing and we think that's wrong. We
wouldn't go to war because our god-thing tells us we have to
convert all the infidels. We wouldn't have arguments about
prayer in schools. And the list goes on.
kayat
posted 10-21-98 01:04 PM ET
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Everyone has made good points about this. It seems that
general ignorance, presumption, and stereotypes are what cause
so much hostile divisiveness and misunderstanding when it
comes to religion...whatever the religion may be. Christianity
has also been the target of much ridicule and disrespect.
Partly because of the misunderstandings, ignorance, and
stereotypes, and partly because of outright opposition to the
beliefs.
Witchcraft has been associated with (and according to many of
you, stereotyped as) a spooky and evil thing . So I can
understand how the girl was scared out of her wits.
I can understand how Lee felt this was bizarre. And I can
understand the panic reaction to this incident.
There are demographics to every religion, and yes, some may
not be consistent with the beliefs. I don't really know why
the Sun felt the need to report that---maybe it was for
sensationalism, maybe it was just another piece of news. In
either case, they probably succeeded in injecting a dose of
stereotype into the veins of readers who are prone to
stereotype. Personally, I try not to stereotype and that
statement didn't make me think wiccans are all or mostly
transsexuals. I just don't think it is that big of a deal that
they reported that fact. They obviously felt it had some
bearing on the story and how its percieved--whether that
causes a negative or postive perception is up to the reader to
decide.
scason, I tried your exercise (well sort of, I only reread the
article with suggested changes) and it didn't really alter my
emotional response. Partly because it sounded silly that a
person would be outraged
or frightened that someone was praying for them. I guess I've
encountered so much news that protrays Christianity in a
hostile and degrading way, that it doesn't really surprise
me...the emotional response to that is nothing new.
clarence
posted 10-21-98 01:38 PM ET
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Witchcraft is a religion, pure and simple.
If one chooses to believe in the practice of it, that is the
choice of the individual, and the constitution of the United
States of America protects that aspect of religious freedom
for all its citizens. I feel that the girl's rights were
violated and her parent should sue the school. Christians do
express their religious freedom, verbally and written -
especially in literature and in schools. Why can't this be
true for others that are of a different religious system. If
this happened in England, it would be laughed at and fun poked
at the school system for reporting it. England and most of
Europe is very tolerant of religions and different belief
systems. Here, in this country - if you aren't a Christian -
then you must be a Witch or a Satanist - how stupid and a
strong lack of intellect or cultural understanding. Wake up,
Christians, your religion is not the only belief system that
recognizes God!
Tony Veca
posted 10-21-98 01:58 PM ET
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I don't think that the Principle was dumb or intolerant. Just
ignorant, and made the mistake of over reacting. Typical human
reaction when faced with a total unknown.
Let's face it people, not to many people know much about the
Craft. Even the good shows about Witchcraft (those shown on
the History and Discover Channels) don't really delve into the
modern practice and beliefs of Wicca. This is in part our
falt, we are not exactly open about our beliefs, and because
of our silence, people believe the worst about us.
The blame for this type of ignorance, can really be laid at
the feet of the government and courts. By making religion more
a less a taboo subject in the schools and for the teachers to
talk about, there is no knowlegde of all religious beliefs by
either the teachers or the students. Had th principle known
about Wicca and the general beliefs or most Wiccans (The Rede
and the Threefold Law in specific) this incidnet would never
have happened.
Signed,
Tony Veca
HP Guardians of the Flame Coven
Jainu
posted 10-21-98 02:12 PM ET
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We live in a world where everyone wants to claim a lawsuit
against another. I don't think that in this case it would help
anyone.You have to look at the positive side of this. It opens
up a chance to talk and educate the educators. Send them
information. Talk with them and the school about the religion.
So there is no more fear. I have 2 children in school. One is
in 5th grade and the other is in the 7th grade. So there is,
especially at this time of the year, a chance of the same
thing or, something else, happening with my children. So this
is a very big issue for me. I wouldn't want the same thing to
happen to my son or daughter.
Blessings and enlightenment,
Jainu
(Wiccan HP, Father of 2, Bookkeeper)
Travis Parker
posted 10-21-98 04:40 PM ET
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I get the distinct feeling this writer involved his own
feelings on Wicca but couldn't decide what to think of it. He
alternates true and non-judgemental statements straight from
the Rede with extraneous facts about the girl's life, like who
and what her parents are. Is this journalism?
Kita Talith
posted 10-21-98 05:23 PM ET
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I must say - I'm appalled that the Sun's Editors even allowed
an article so poorly substantiated and poorly researched to go
to print. I can imagine the reaction in the news office -
people must have been jumping up and down to have such a
"perfectly timed" story to print, and they rushed it
through... it was inexcusable, and irresponsible.
Good journalism would never have allowed the statement
regarding the parent's trans-sexuality to make it into the
final article. That was "yellow journalism" at it's most
blatant - again using a stereotypical "wierdness" to
unconsiously bias the reader against the witches.
In addition, a better approach to the article would have been
to research what Wicca is and is not... the writer could have
used the opportunity to educate, instead of merely
perpetuating the myths of satanism. A simple paragraph
explaining wicca, taken from one of any NUMBER of wiccan web
sites (easily found in any internet search engine) could have
made this article more balanced, more objective, and less
sensational.
I am angered and offended by this article... I am Wiccan, a
member of an established religion with a history much longer
than that of christianity, an empowering religion that
actively seeks to harm no one, and frequently works
altruistically to heal the communities in which its
practitioners live and worship. It is in our Rede... : 'An it
harm none...'
I believe the Sun should redress this offense by taking the
opportunity to publish a well-written, well-researched article
on Wicca ... written by a writer who will take the time to
interview us, the members of the wiccan community.
SphinxEyes
posted 10-21-98 11:05 PM ET
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Ok, I have several points to make (don't cha just hate people
that say that??):
1. This paper is going to report news in whatever way will
sell papers--that is what they do. And isn't it just the BEST
to have a religious debate with "strange" characters (wouldn't
be near as much fun with "normal" people--they're so
normal--and who wants to read about people like us)? I don't
like it, it shouldn't happen, but as long as people buy the
paper, they're going to keep doing it (one reason that the
President's current "indescretions" are in Newsweek instead of
the Star or other tabloid press,
2. Freedom of religion means just that. That means in my mind
that someone can pray or read their Bible anyplace they feel
like it (I'll fight for THAT to the death!) But you can't have
it both ways. That also means that people from other relgiions
can read their material and have their say as well. Which
means if you can have a Fellowship of Christian Athletes in
public school, well then, you should be able to have a
Fellowship of Pagan/Wiccan athletes too.
3. Majority rules in America, but that shouldn't undermine
minority rights.
4. Just because the principal's never heard of a relgion
doesn't make it any less valid.
5. (Hmmm I wonder if this means the next time some Christian
tells my child to Go To Hell....can I take THAT as a threat?)
6. Why oh why do schools try so hard to enforce morality
instead of teaching our children? I like the way our school
does things--two children have a dispute, they BOTH go home
for the day. It's called a "cooling off" period. (Frankly I
think it's just so the powers that be can decide THEIR version
of what happened.
7. This kinda of thing is going to KEEP on happening as long
as we (the Wiccan/Pagan community) stays in the broom closet
AND continue to fight among ourselves. I'm all for the Rede
and the Rule of Three, but standing up for you rights has GOT
to be a belief someplace.
8. Last and not least I hate to admit it, but living in a
capatalistic society, people/places don't change unless they're
forced to. Desegregation would NEVER be a reality without
trying cases in court. In the light of that, I have 4
letters.... A.C.L.U.
Light and love,
Sekhmet
SphinxEyes
posted 10-21-98 11:11 PM ET
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BTW: Ignore the mispells and typos--it's been a long day in
the trenches at the hospital. Yep, Wiccan are even nurses
Light and love,
Sekhmet
who cares
posted 10-21-98 11:59 PM ET
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I am extremely troubled by the way this entire "event" was
handled. In short, HOW can they possily transfer the student
as an answer?
Calling the "hex" a threat is absurd. Even if it was a threat,
how many similar threats (reported & unreported) are made each
day? (i.e. i hope you die, i'm gonna get you after school,
etc. . .) What about a student who is not wiccan, who
threatens another student with a "hex"? what about voodoo
dolls?
Everyone needs to get over themselves! It was irresponsible
journalism by the Sun
& every Baltimore news channel.
The girl (schoonover) will be chastised everywhere she goes
from now on (it is probably partly the parent's fault though
because I don't think they have the right to use a minor's
name/picture without parental consent - and if it was done
without consent, there SHOULD be a lawsuit).
Do you really believe that noone at that school (said "hexee"
et al. included) threatened the "witch" child? Come on, be
real. That child has been taunted and tortured by peers for
years.
It has to be illegal to transfer her for the alleged behavior.
Perhaps, she is going somewhere else of her own accord or is
being sent somewhere for treatment for more involved issues.
At any rate, the whole thing is ridiculous - as ridiculous as
our whole country at this point. We have to be the laughing
stocks of the entire free world for what we consider
news!!!!!!!!!
In the end, I am waiting for . . . THE SCHOOLBOARD to THROW
THEM IN THE HARBOR TO SEE IF THEY FLOAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
GEEZ!!!!!!!!
BirBear
posted 10-22-98 12:22 AM ET
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The problem is that in America, most people don't understand
any religions.
For the most part, we don't even fully understand our own
religion, or religious beliefs. And if we don't understand our
own, how can we expect to understand anybody elses?
Kids have been expelled from school for preaching a little too
sternly from the Bible, or for "speaking in tounges."
Immediately after the Oklahoma City bombing, there was a call
to arms against Islamics.
The Jews are routinely persecuted.
People have the misconception that all practioners of eastern
religions (Buddhism, Taoism, etc) have a black belt in some
mystic martial arts.
All Indians (from India) are Hindus who don't eat meat.
All Native Americans see visions.
All wiccans are satanists.
There is a misconception about religion in general. No one
religion is persecuted more than any other. And fundamentally
all major religions share the same core beliefs.
I dunno. Maybe the wiccans should be heartened by the fact
that so many people beleive in the power of the young witch --
that she could cast a spell. Where I come from, most of us
would have dismissed everybody in the situation for being a
little guillable.
Bir
Jainu
posted 10-22-98 07:56 AM ET
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I don't agree with the transfer. If that is what the student
and mother want then fine. I feel education is the answer
here. There may be others in that school who are witches or
children of witches. This would just make them think twice
about comming out of the "Broom Closet". I have an entire
program that is worked out to educate schools, police, etc.
about what wicca is. I will try and see if they are willing to
listen and learn. I have not at this time had any luck. Lets
see if we can get some good to come of this.
Blessings and enlightenment,
Jainu (Wiccan HP, Father of 2, Bookkeeper)
Jainu
posted 10-22-98 09:00 AM ET
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Ok...I have 2 children who are in the public school system.
This whole issue worries me the more and more I think about
it. I have a program worked up that can educate teachers,
administrators and students on the wiccan religion. Any
educators out there who wish to discuss this or see a copy of
the program please feel free to email me and I will be happy
to send it to you to look at. I would be happy to, at no
charge to anyone, come to the school and put on the program to
educate everyone. I don't want this issue to hit home with my
kids. I see the only way to avoid this is to educate the
system on this.
Blessings and enlightenment,
Jainu (Wiccan HP, Father of 2, Bookkeeper)
Jainu
posted 10-22-98 11:22 AM ET
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I just read the second report on this issue. I really don't
think transfering is the answer here. No matter where the girl
goes at this point they are going to know her. She isn't going
to be able to outrun this. This is really turning into a sad
story. My heart is heavy for this young girl.
My hope and energies go out to her,
Jainu
(Wiccan HP, Father of 2, Bookkeeper)
Max Cool
posted 10-22-98 11:32 AM ET
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Duh, hey Principal Earl, ever heard the children's rhyme:
"Sticks and stones...?"
Well here's a new one for you:
"Hexes will never hurt me!"
(I promise!)
You got nothing *better* to do, Earl?
But, hey, sounds like you'd have a great career out here in
California. You're really sensative, man!
John Hess
Petaluma, CA
LadySong
posted 10-22-98 03:13 PM ET
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Blessed Be to all out there!
I am a business professional, a Wiccan High Priestess, and a
citizen of the United States. Why do I say this? Because I
feel it is important to show that we are all equil. None of us
is more than the other because of race, creed, color,
preference, etc. We all live here, we work here, breathe here,
sleep here, and die here on this earth TOGETHER. Why do we
chose to try to alienate one another because of petty
differences?
This artical is vaguely reminicent of the Salem Witch trials.
As here, there were a group of girls that would cry and go
into hystarics at the sight of a "witch" and subsuquently,
that "witch" was either forced to confess or be hanged. Are we
truly going back to those times of ignorance and pain? I
sincerely hope not. If there was a *tangable* wrong done, then
let that be dealt with. Sending one home for a deed that has
no proof, much less tangability is reduculous, and goes only
to show ignorance and closed mindedness.
No, I do not believe that transfer is any type of solution to
this situation. Once cannot run forever. At some point,
someone must refuse to back down, and insist on some
education. Ignorance is NOT bliss!
Freedom of religion is a founding point of this country. If
you recall your history, it is the main reason that most of
the origional settelers from England and other european lands
came. It has also been established that religion should be
held seperate from schools, therefore religion should not be
any basis for diciplinary actions, be it for Christians,
Wiccans, Budists, Muslums, Jews, etc. If there was defimation
of property, all those involved should be punished, but any
concerns about religions should be left alone by the Princapal
and the School Board. If someone wants to bring a Bible to
read in their spare time, or pray silently, or whirl (as
muslums do) or sit outside in the Grass and commune with
nature, as long as it does not interfere with schoolwork, it
should be allowed.
As far as the attitude of this paper, I must commend them in
part for bringing this outrage to public attention. I must
also chastize them for an article that was clearly not
researched, and for the bias added to the article by
mentioning the preferences of the girl's mother.
I hope that we all, Christian and Wiccan alike as well as
those of all other religions, take this event as an
opportunity to educate and to uphold our basic freedom of
Religion.
Sincerely,
LadySong
http://www.angelfire.com/ny/LadySong
Sadema
posted 10-22-98 04:18 PM ET
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I confess now that I am no history major and my understanding
is based on the tidbits I've heard, so please correct me if
I'm wrong (esp those history buffs).
Regarding Freedom of Religion vs. Christianity being the
foundation of this country---my understanding is that yes, the
pilgrims immigrated b/c they wanted to freely practice their
religion and escape catholicism at that time. But they were
Christians nonetheless. The country grew up with God-fearing
leaders and people (mainly Christians) who valued freedom in
every way. (Freedom is a very Christian concept too, you
know). Some didn't necessarily believe in the God of the
Bible, but they were God-fearers nonetheless. T.Jefferson
himself was only a Diest which isn't necessarily Christian.
Any of you ever read Abe Lincoln's Thanksgiving Procalmation
in 1863?
"We have been the recipients of the choicest bounties of
heaven; we have been preserved these many years in peace and
prosperity; we have grown in numbers, wealth and power as no
other nation has ever grown. But we have forgotten God. We have
forgotten the gracious Hand which preserved us in peace and
multiplied and enriched and strengthened us, and we have vainly
imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that all these
blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue of
our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success we have become too
self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and
preserving grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us. It
has seemed to me fit and proper that God should be solemnly,
reverently, and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart, and
one voice, by the whole American people. I do therefore invite
my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also
those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign
lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November
as a day of Thanksgiving and praise to our beneficent Father
who dwelleth in the heavens."
Worshipping the Creator, and not the created....
S.
sister_sanity
posted 10-22-98 05:29 PM ET
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In response to the idea that 1)this country is founded on
Christian principles, 2)that Christians are unfairly portrayed
and persecuted in our society, and 3)that this girl was
practicing her religion.
This country was not founded by religious zealots. Many of the
founding fathers were religious, but they weren't too
concerned about the flavor of their fellow man's faith. And as
the well regarded Jefferson said 'I don't care if my neighbor
worships one god or fifty, it neither picks my pocket nor
breaks my leg.' The colony may have been started by Pilgrims,
but the political entity called the United States was founded
on secular humanist principles.
If I had a dollar for every time I heard a Christian complain
about being treated unfairly because of their faith I'd be
rich. If I was waiting for that same dollar to see it actually
happen, I could maybe take my boyfriend out for fast food,
this world kicks everybody around. The Romans fed some
Christians to the lions(admittedly awful, but they were equal
opportunity jerks when it came to people they didn't like, you
should look up what they did to the Druids), and they never
got over it. Ever since then, you've been doing it to
yourselves and everybody else besides. An outspoken segment of
your faith pushes their values on others, tells us we're evil,
and disrespects our rights to our own beliefs. Tell me why
that deserves any sympathy? I have Christian friends who
respect my faith, and others, as much as I respect theirs, and
are as appalled by religious intolerance as I am. We have
agreed to disagree, have some interesting discussions, and
strangely enough, they never complain about getting
persecuted!
This young lady was only practicing a religion in the sense
that I would still call myself a pagan while I'm working at
the office typing a document. She did not 'do' anything other
than have baseless hysterical accusations leveled against her.
The full story was obviously known from the beginning of the
incident, she performed no 'religious' actions, and was guilty
only of loaning someone a bottle of white out. She was
punished because of a belief, not an action. She was
discriminated against because of a fear born of ignorant
intolerance. That principal should be publicly apologizing
right now.
OneG
posted 10-22-98 07:07 PM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
I'm not out to flame here, but I think it's kind of pointless
to write 10,000 words when a few hundred will do. Therefore,
I'm going to be direct below, but not rude. A couple of things
are being taken on face value which ought to be examined:
1) I think the witch is lying. Is so out of the realm of
possibilities that she was ticked and then told that other
girl that she would put a spell on her? The fact that the
witch admitted she knew how to cast spells (what a bunch of
impotent satanic baloney!) does injury to her claim that she
would NEVER do that to anyone. Wicca has spell casting and
there are those who do it. I've been told by wiccans
themselves. In addition, the biggest lie about wiccans is that
they're a bunch of harmless wood nymphs who "first do no
harm." When you pollute your soul with that of idolatry,
you're already veering away from the one true God.
2) Wiccans not satanist? What's she doing with a pentagram
around her neck in the photograph? Liars get found out.
3) The fact that the dad(?) is so spiritually bereft of the
one true God (Jesus Christ) that he would change his sex just
goes to show he/she isn't capable of properly raising a child.
No wonder that kid is into witchcraft.
4) Let's see what the Bible says about sorcery, or
communication with unclean spirits: Re 21:8 But the fearful,
and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and
whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars,
shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and
brimstone: which is the second death. All of that can be
avoided by having faith in Jesus Christ and His saving grace.
You all have time to come to faith in Jesus. Now is the day of
our salvation. Choose Jesus.
Laura Burchard
posted 10-22-98 10:34 PM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
Ah, yes, and here's OneG for the ninny faction (she's a witch!
So she must be LYING!)
The second story makes it pretty clear that the problem here
is little miss hysterics, the accuser. She's certainly working
in a grand American tradition here -- self aggrandizing
adolescent girls were the accusers in the Salem witch trials
-- and is no doubt reaping plenty of attention and sympathy
from her friends and parents every time she throws a fit. If
she works at it hard enough she can probably start producing
spectral evidence too.
Any sensible principal would have told her to go home until
she can calm down and stop dissing her classmates, but not
this one. I loved that oh so subtle quote from Principal Lee
in the first story:
"It's just so new to us that a child openly admits she
practices witchcraft. It's very bizarre to us. So, we wanted
to get the parents involved, to see if they had any knowledge
of it."
In other words, we thought we'd get Jamie in trouble with
Mommy and Daddy for not being a good little Christian girl.
Must have been a surprise to him when Mommy turned out to be
Wiccan too.
Unfortunately, per usual it's the non-mainstream kid who is
going to bear all the burden of disapproval and harassment.
SphinxEyes
posted 10-22-98 11:59 PM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
LMAO at One God...oh thank you sooo much, I needed that laugh.
Tears running down her face. Know what's funny?? Wiccans don't
BELIEVE in Satan?? He doesn't exist. So why in the world would
I worshp something that doesn't exist??
Now, read my response in the other column about The Craft...I
raise some really valid points and I sure would like a true
blue, knowledgeable Christian like yourself to answer
em...(Being as the lack of an answer by several "scholars" was
one main reason for leaving Christianity) Seriously, I'm
interested.
Light and love,
Sekhmet
Erik ShadoWolf
posted 10-23-98 07:42 AM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
OneG, I only saw the picture once, so I might be wrong, but
wasen't she wearing a penticle (a star with the point up) and
not a pentagram (a star with the point down). But if you
insist on calling a symbol the same if it is right side up, or
upside down, then I guess a right side up, or upside down
cross means the same thing, eh?
Rowan Hawthorne
posted 10-23-98 10:10 AM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
To ONEG:
1. Considering the fact that Wiccans consider a Christian's
prayer a "spell" in that it calls on energetic assistance from
an outside source just as a spell does, would that make your
prayer "impotent Satanic baloney"? And where do you get the
idea that she's lying? Oh wait! I get it you follow the "real"
god so she's lying regardless of stated facts, right? hmmm...
a little biased don't you think?
2. "First do no harm" is part of the Hippocratic Oath taken by
doctors and has nothing to do with Wicca (although all doctors
make this oath to APOLLO not CHRIST)
3. There is a difference between a "spell" (using ritual,
energies, and invocations to the Lord and Lady to effect
change of any kind) and a "hex" (doing the same to effect
negative outcomes). Christian prayer, although called by one
word, can be broken down in the same way. A prayer for healing
is no different than a Wiccan's spell of the same purpose,
while a prayer for someone else's "salvation" and turning away
from what they presently believe is manipulative and
compromises a person's free will; it therefore is evident that
such a prayer is destructive and negative (AKA black) magic.
4. Pentagram. Satanic, eh? Then why did early Christians use
it to represent the wounds of Christ (head, hands, feet, and
side) And knights devoted to your god ride into battle with it
emblazoned on their shields as a sign of their faith?
5. The rest of your comments are no more than rabid
fundamentalist Christian propaganda, so I won't comment on
them at all. If you choose to follow a god that lies to you,
feel free; I however will follow the path of right and love
(which will be whichever path I may choose of the many that do
not teach hate, fear, and ignorance to its adherents.)
Blessings,
Rev. Rowan Hawthorne
Rowanwood
Sadema
posted 10-23-98 05:06 PM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
sister sanity -- If you read my post again, I said that the
country was founded by God-fearers, who weren't necessarily
Christian. In other words, they may not have held to every
Christian concept esp regarding spiritual issues such as
salvation,prayer, etc. But they believed in a sovereign,
all-powerful God. This fear dictated morality to them,
something that is rapidly declining in this country. Whether
T.Jefferson was a diest or agnostic (I learned he was Diest
from history book too), at least he did not flat out deny the
existance of God, ONE God.
This country WAS founded with a belief and fear of ONE
almighty God, just look on that dollar bill you keep getting
from those whining Christians! Lo and behold: In God We Trust.
Now regarding those complaining Christians, I wasn't seeking
sympathy. I was just informing the 'complaining' Wiccans (and
others who were outraged at this religious persecution
directed at Wiccans)that, hey, you're not alone...all faiths
face persecution, ridicule, and disrespect at some point, even
Christians (since I am a Christian, I tend to see it more than
a non-Christian would). I applaud your Christian friends for
not complaining...they shouldn't! What good does it do unless
they are actually doing something about it? Again, I wasn't
trying to complain, I was trying to make a point.
About the kid, she wasn't punished for a belief, she was
punished for an ALLEGED action that was based on her beliefs.
And the allegation appears to have turned out false according
to all who were present. And I don't really see how she was
discriminated against. Whatever the case, I just feel the
reaction to this incident by people here was overboard. Yes
the principal acted ignorantly, he admitted he was ignorant to
this! The incident IS weird, different, bizarre, out of the
ordinary...so I can see why the school panicked and reacted
that way!
And in light of the alleged religious discrimination, my whole
point is it happens everywhere to every religion, so don't get
so bent out of shape. It seems that most of the Wiccans here
realize this, and realize ignorance was a key factor...it's
the non-Wiccans who got all bent out of shape and attacked
Christianity as a result (see the first few posts of this
thread).
SphinxEyes
posted 10-23-98 09:59 PM ET
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sekhmet laughs...You know Sadema, I think we're arguing
forests and tress Ok...Christians have a dual diety approach
(Satan/God), Moslems have dual approach (Satan/God), many
Chinese philosophies have a dual approach (Yin/Yang). The only
different between Wicca and the others (at least to my way of
speaking and I am in NO means and expert here--just babbling
the way I believe things) is that we don't see our dualities
as one all good/positive and one all bad/negative. The
god/goddess are equal in power and guess what??, they both
have DIFFERENT jobs . I don't neccessarily believe your wrong
and I'm right, nor do I intend to devalue your belief.. I
personally think all paths lead to Rome so to speak. Call
your's God/Satan and I'll call mine God/Goddess It's just that
mine I don't think are all good or all bad--just kinda quirky.
I always like to think positive and negative energy NEED each
other to exist (it's what keeps atoms together), and I don't
like EITHER of my deities to have no socially redeeming value
and to blame for all the worlds ills.
BTW...if you want to move this to email so the rest of the
list isn't bored by the debate, let me know or look up my
email on my profile I too will be busy/gone this
weekend--working. BTW did I tell you that I'm a nurse and we
are predominately female and are QUITE good at making those
BIG decisions that you talked about
Light and love,
Sekhmet
Vampyre
posted 10-21-98 07:48 AM ET
--------------------------------------------------
This is obviously anouther case of people being scared of
something they have no knowledge of. A person who
practiced Wicca and tried to go into the military was
kicked out (quietly) because he was scareing the other
military members. The Wicca beliefs are not something to
be feared and (correct me if I am wrong) in fact are very
much into the beliefs of holding nature and life sacred. I
find the students reaction as a normal fear placed in the
mind of the hollywood films and the principals reaction as
that of a salem witch hunt. Sorry, this rates a 10 on my
stupidity list.
LordGreystoke
posted 10-21-98 09:01 AM ET
--------------------------------------------------
No reason to be sorry. You should never apologize for
other people's stupidity. I don't think that girl was
afraid in the slightest I think she was acting. Maybe the
principal should send her to the drama teacher's office
when this whole thing is said and done. Kids are
notoriously dumb, and mean and this one is no different.
She found a kid who practices a religion that isn't the
same as hers and she used the opportunity to
melodramatically persecute her.
Laura Burchard
posted 10-21-98 11:44 PM ET
--------------------------------------------------
Vampyre: "A person who practiced Wicca and tried to
go into the military was kicked out (quietly) because he
was scareing the other military members."
Actually, I doubt this is correct, Vampyre. There are
Wiccan chaplains in the military; the US Army Chaplain's
Handbook includes a section on Wicca that is a model of
clarity and enlightenment (coven members should be given
the same visiting rights in hospital as family members!)
http://www.paganlibrary.com/reference_works/Handbook_for_Chaplains.html,
and there's even a Military Pagan Network
(http://www.milpagan.org/)
That's not to say that pagans in the military haven't ever met with
harassment, but they have the full legal support to practice their
religion.
Vampyre
posted 10-22-98 03:10 PM ET
--------------------------------------------------
Laura:
Sorry to correct you, but I was a personal friend of this
gentleman and even though the "Chaplin" that was
stationed at the base was working with him and was
understanding, the fact of the matter still was that he
had gone through 3 room mates due to they could not deal
with him being a "warlock" no matter what nature
of the "magic" involved. The last had ended up
in Wilford Hall (psych ward) due to stress from his
fright. The military saw this as a problem since the
gentleman was training to be a cop and would be put with
others in very stressful situations anyway. I am not sure
of the out come but the last I had spoken to him, he was
two weeks from being discharged under honorable
conditions. Just stating facts. Not trying to start a
fight. :)
Aistear_Realta
posted 10-22-98 05:53 PM ET
--------------------------------------------------
I just want to say that this is not something new. It
happens all over the nation in schools. Sometimes it is
not a misunderstanding, it is a deleberate attact on
Wicca. I know, myself and my sister were victims of such
an attack. Though we were not Wiccans at the time we spoke
out against the local school board for making children
(public school) take bibles while in school and for
calling Catholics, Mormons and other religious groups
Satanic just because they were not Babtist. When they
learned that there were Wiccans and Pagans in the
community things got ugly. My family was Babtist, but when
my minister in my church for 15 years called my family
satinists because we believe in the FREEDOM OF RELIGION we
decied that we needed something different. My mom became
Buddist/Christian, my younger sister and I became Wiccan,
and my other two sisters stayed Babtist. I worked hard the
next couple of years through threats and riddicule through
High School. My younger sister had to be homeschooled
because the teachers would not teach her. I graduated High
School a year early to get out of there and I did not even
attend my own graduation. I know what that girl is going
through and I wish that this would stop. It leaves a
perminate scar on your feelings and the look you have on
this nation
Aistear Realta
Texas
Laura Burchard
posted 10-22-98 10:18 PM ET
--------------------------------------------------
But that's a rather different matter than being kicked out
for being Wiccan; the Army has always looked rather poorly
upon those who can't play well with others. They'd kick a
fundie out too if they couldn't manage to work with the
group.
It's possible, I suppose, that he got three psychotic
roommates in a row, but I suspect that the problem in this
case lay not in his stars but himself. Thousands of
Wiccans manage to work and worship in the military without
having similiar problems.
Laura
SphinxEyes
posted 10-23-98 01:07 AM ET
--------------------------------------------------
Somebody please want to enlighten people out there that
the term "warlock" is a slanderous one... it
means "oathbreaker." Pagans and Wiccan males are
simply "witches" as well. Oops, I think I just
told him.
Light and love,
Sekhmet
will see
posted 10-22-98 12:55 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil;that
put darkness for light, and light for darkness;that
put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!" People
who practice "white" magic say that they get their
powers from elemental spirits. According to Man, Myth,
and Magic, "white" magic is known as "ancestral
science" and also as the art of compulsion of the
supernatural. Magic is in practice, a human technique,
designed to control the environment. It is base on the
belief that the forces of nature can be recruited to
serve man's interest. On the other hand, people who
practice "black" magic are supposed to get their
powers from demonic spirits. This puts a person in
witchcraft in a very awkward position, because witches
say they do not worship the devil. They deny his very
existence. They say the devil is a biblical character,
and they do not believe in the Bible.. Folks whether
it is "black" magic, "white" magic, elemental spirits
or demonic spirits, they get their power from the same
source. So, if they say they do not believe in demons
and yet they say the "black" magician gets his power
from demonic spirits, then they are lying. (to the
devil, it doesnt matter what you call the spirits, as
long as you call upon them.. The devil has a way of
changing terms so that people will accept him. It used
to be called the occult;now it is the New Age
movement. It used to be called demon possession;now it
is channelling. A devil called by any other name is
still a devil. Lets look at some things that Satanists
and witches have in common. Witches use many of the
same dates of worship as Satanist do.(ex.winter and
summer solstice, and spring and autumn equinox, as
well as Halloween) Witches try to communicate with the
dead, as do Satanist. As a matter of fact, that is the
reason Halloween is so important to witches as well as
Satanists. In the Encyclopedia of White Magic, October
31 is called Samhaine. Samhaine is the end of the
witch's year, as well as the beginning. "At Samhiane
the veil between our world and the other world is
thinnest, and it is thought to be the best time to
attract those who have gone before. I must emphasize
that, to witches, these are the spirits of the
long,lost dead-the old masters and leaders of our
race. We are not spiritualists, and do not try to
contact Aunt Annie or Uncle Fred to find where they
left a will or hid the silver. We understand that
there is someone, or something, far greater than
ourselves who can help us in our quest for knowledge,
light and truth."
These statements by professing witch Paddy Slade would
be awkward for believers in the craft. Remember they
don't believe in 'spirits called demons'. If they only
believe in elemental spirits, then why do they call on
human spirits? Truly witches do believe in spirits
other than the elemental spirits of "white" magic. So
do Satanists. Witches use the same tools of
communication with the dead as do Satanists--crystal
balls and Ouija boards. Bye the way if I tried to talk
to Buddha, I would be talking to a dead man. If I
tried to talk to Mohammed, I would be talking to a
dead man, etc, etc. But Christ is a living Savior.
That is why Christians do not seek the living among
the dead (Luke 24:5-7). Witches and Satanists use the
media to recruit. This is an entry in the The U.S.
Chaplain's Manual from the Church of Satan on ethics,
recruiting, and relationships. They were questioned
concerning how the Church of Satan recruits new
members. Response: "The church does not proselytize
but welcomes inquiries from honest potential Satanists
who hear about the church from the various books about
it, the mass media or word of mouth." This is also
from the U.S. Chaplain's Manual. This entry is from
the American Council of Witches, and they were asked
the same question. It was answered: "Witches do not
proselytize, but welcome inquiries from those who hear
about the craft by either word of mouth or the media."
For two totally different organizations and two
totally different entries, they surely have some
definite similarities. Also the media encourages
witchcraft and Satanism by giving a distorted view of
Christianity. Looking again at the U.S. Chaplain's
Manual ---what is witchcraft's role in relationship
with other religions? According to the American
Council of Witches, ".....cooperation with other
religions are cordial, except those groups which have
sought to persecute and defame the Craft." Can anyone
guess what religion they are talking about? Anyway
witchcraft and Satanism stand with open arms, and
gathers all those who oppose Christianity. Here's a
test to see if our society holds to the Christain
belief or the satanic or witchcraft belief, vial the
media: (1) Does the Bible teach homosexuality is
wrong? Yes. Does the Church of Satan or Wicca teach
homosexuality is wrong? No. (2) Does the Bible teach
that adultery and fornication are wrong? Yes. Does
Church of Satan?NO Does Wicca? No. (3) Does the Bible
teach that we have only one true God, Jehovah? Yes.
Does Church of Satan? No, they make themselves god.
Does Wicca? No,they have many gods. I can go on...
Practicing Satanism and witchcraft is not putting on a
black robe, praying to the devil, or burning candles
at midnight. It is a value system that is totally
contrary to this country's christian foundation.
(Deut. 13:1-3; Matt.7:15; 1John 4:1;Jer.10:2; Isa.
47:12-13; Rev.14:9-11; Rev.12:7-10; Rev.20:10;Isa.
45:11-13;Deut 18:10-12)
Erik
ShadoWolf
posted 10-22-98 07:38 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
I guess the words "Freedom of Religion", something
else, by the way, this country was founded on, have no
meaning to you.
Jainu
posted 10-22-98 08:28 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
First let me start by saying you have your right to
your opinion. You religion is as valid as anyone
elses. There is no such thing as a good or evil witch.
Anyone who says there is really doesn't know what they
are talking about. A witch is a balance between the
ying and the yang. They have both light and dark. One
can not exist without the other. If y ou only have
light then you know not what darkness is and if you
only have darkness then you know not what light is.
You can not have one without the other. A true witch
knows the balance between the two. A person can say
they are a witch and do evil things. Witch is just a
label people place on themselves or others. Nothing
more nothing less. If I said I was a Teltabo would you
know what that was? No. It is a made up word. I could
say I am such a thing and that I do this or do that.
Again it is just a label. If what the person does
harms another either physically, emotionaly or
spiritualy then they are not a witch. Witches heal
that which has been harmed. They do not harm or hex!
As for the holidays. You do realize that the christian
holidays were changed to coinside with the pagan
holidays to make the conversion from pagan religions
easier on those who were pagan. Chirst was not born in
the summer yet his birth was moved to Dec. 24 to match
the birth of the pagan god on Dec. 21st.
Blessings & enlightenment,
Jainu (Wiccan HP, Father of 2, Bookkeeper)
scason
posted 10-22-98 10:56 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
The problem with your screed, "will see", is that you
are trying to prove something about Witchcraft using a
variety of books touching on subjects dear to Witches,
just as you might prove a point of Christian theology
using quotations from the Bible. We don't believe in
the Bible as the sole true and complete Word of God,
and we also don't necessarily all believe in or
subscribe to the opinions expressed in the other books
you have quoted.
Your logic is also shaky on a number of points, which
I will leave to you and our readers to spot.
Here are two differences between Christians and
Pagans, for you to think about. The first is that we
do not have any radical or central source of dogma
like the Christian Bible. There is no standard of
conformity against which a Pagan's beliefs can be
measured. We do not value conformity. We value free
thought and exploration. In the absence of pat answers
to the eternal questions, we seek experiences and
wisdom that will enable us to arrive at our own
answers, perhaps useful to others along the way, but
ultimately valid only for ourselves.
In order to do this, we must become comfortable with
the uncertainty of a world without any external
guidance such as your Bible and your Church. We are
forced to live in a grown-up world, where we are
responsible to ourselves, our peers, and our progeny
for the consequences of our actions, and to make the
world a better place in which to live. To be sure, we
establish our own Circles and Temples and Groves, for
fellowship and support, for the preservation of
knowledge, for cooperation in spiritual pursuits. Yet
by and large these institutions do not serve to keep
the faithful homogeneous and uniform, but rather to
support the unique spiritual needs of each member, in
all of their variety and idiosyncracy.
The second difference is a corollary to the the first.
We do not empower anyone to speak for all of us. We
each are autonomous individuals, and are expected to
be able to find our own voices and to speak for
ourselves. Just because some author writes about some
Pagan or Wiccan practice or belief in his or her book
does not mean that all, or even half, of all Pagans
and Witches agree with that author. You simply can't
use books to prove anything to us or about us.
Instead, you have two other options. You can either
find us and talk to us and learn about our ways and
possibly even become a friend to some of us, or you
can journey as we do and seek the truth in your own
heart and mind and spirit, and find the courage to
speak and live the truth that you find.
Yours in peace,
Steven
Apocalypse7
posted 10-22-98 11:34 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
The brother of light senses the Spirit of God within
himself and has made a commitment to follow it and be
one with it, similar to a marriage relationship. If he
actively seeks a sign outside of himself for his main
source of guidance, this causes a shift of attention
away from the Spirit. So his God becomes a false God
outside of himself and the inner
God is ignored and betrayed. He has committed adultery
against his only true source of guidance, which places
a black wall
between his personality self and the God within.
A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a
sign.
scason
posted 10-22-98 12:41 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
You may be surprised to learn that I agree
wholeheartedly with you. I point out, however, that
the Church and the Bible and all of history are
outside of one's self. Indeed, this is precisely why
we Pagans do not rely on any book or teacher or
leader. We consider our own internal relationship to
Godhead to be our most direct and reliable source of
guidance, and we seek to cultivate and dwell in that
relationship.
This has always been the essence of religion, Pagan or
Christian. Given that we all are understood to have
within us a connection to the Spirit of God, and that
we all agree that keeping this connection is what we
seek, why do you persecute us?
SphinxEyes
posted 10-22-98 01:49 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
I agree that you have the right to espouse your
religion as you see fit. As a former Christian, former
Sunday School teacher and someone who's read the Bible
through AT LEAST twenty-five times (hey I was bored
with everything being a sin), I have a few things to
comment on.
1: This is one Wiccan that doesn't routinely manipulate
ANYTHING through magic. For one thing it's against the
principal of "harming none" as the Rede says, for who
made me judge and jury over what someone "needs"
(oftentimes needs are NOT needs but wants). Also, I believe
like many middle eastern religions that magic is simply energy
and there is energy in every living thing. To work a spell
means manipulating that energy and like a stone thrown in a
pond, that energy has a far reaching "ripple" effect.
Therefore it is with great seriousness that any spell is ever
performed by be. (If Christians believed what they really
needed to, they'd realize the same thing. When Jesus came he
made the "rules" more spiritual. For instance, if a
man looks upon a women and lusts after her--he's already
committed adultery. If he hates in his heart--he's already
murdered. See, they'd be way too busy trying to get their own
house in order to worry about someone else).
2: Any religion that treats it deities like candy machines has
no right throwing stones. In Wicca, the emphasis is getting US
in tune with the cosmos. In Christianity the emphasis that I've
seen is (well if we pray this much, this many times a day, God
HAS to answer our prayers) Yep, put that 50 cents in and you
get to get your Snickers bar.
3. I have a problem with any religion that teaches that bad
things happen because of "sin." I've known some
devout Christians that have died of Cancer and I don't see
where they sinned. Many Wiccans that I have talked to seem to
have the impression that "Stuff happens and your supposed
to learn something from it." That's all...no judgement, no
slandering just an acceptance that life is NOT all fun and
games.
4. I have a problem with a religion that is soooo afraid of
others. If you've got the biggest Daddy on the block, why are
YOU so worried? What can we Wiccans possibly do to you?
5 That leads me to another point. If you're so afraid of your
immortal soul, why in heaven's name would anyone WANT it? A
little too self centered there aren't we? Seems as if the
religion teaches you to be more self-centered than to help
others.
6. Last but not least. The position of women. Now THIS is a
touchy subject. I'm no women's libber and I don't hate men. But
neither am I some stupid person. And to have been told and seen
other women held to a lower level just by virtue of their
gender is appalling. The souls inside, by your own teaching
don't have genders (that little section about in heaven there
will be no marrying or giving in marriage--kinda hard to marry
a genderless soul--no reason). Now this is NOT a slam, but
simply a cry for understanding and if not that a plea to get
your OWN house in order before coming to clean mine.
Light and love,
Sekhmet
Sadema
posted 10-22-98 02:45 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
scason -- about your two points of difference between
Christianity and Wicca. Christians do not empower
anyone to speak for them either. If a 'Billy Graham'
happens to rise to top to speak to people and author
books, he has done so on his own accord (although
Christians would say he has been gifted or lead by the
Spirit of God). But he does not become empowered by
humans. Secondly, we don't seek conformity, we seek
unity. I am absolutely amazed and fascinated at how
faith in Jesus Christ is expressed around the world
from tribal communities in Africa to nomadic
communities in the Middle East to African American
communities in the inner cities. They are all so
different from one another, but the living Spirit of
Christ is unmistakably present.
SphinxEyes -- About candy machine gods, I was thinking
sort of the same thing just the other day except I
used a cafeteria allegory. I see alot of religions
that pick and choose they "type" of God they want to
worship like they would choose the type of lunch they
want to eat in a cafeteria. Alot of folks say: I don't
want a God who punishes, I don't want a judgemental
God, I want a God who loves all and accepts all. I
want a God who gives me signs when I ask for it, who
answers prayers when I say it, who doesn't hide
himself....and so on. Firstly, God is who He is, we
can't make him up. Wiccans seek wisdom and experience,
well, so do Christians in understanding God for who He
is and not for who we want Him to be. Also,I have not
come to understand the God of the Bible as someone who
you can manipulate by the doing 'the right thing, the
right way' ie praying alot. On the contrary, we pray
b/c we NEED to pray, to seek Him and know Him. And our
prayers musn't alway be 'gimmie this gimmie that'. I
think other faiths such a Islam or Judaism believe
that if you follow certain laws and do certain things,
then God will like you, accept you, do things for you,
etc. Christianity is based on grace and mercy. If you
have any good thing, it is from above and it is b/c of
God's grace through His Son Jesus Christ, not because
of anything you did or didn't do.
I'm not sure I understand your point about fear or
worry, but the Bible teaches that fear and worry are
sins. Fear (not hate) is the opposite of love. And
Jesus commands us to not worry. Therefore, worrying is
breaking this commandment. Many Christians fear and
many more worry, yes I know. But its still a sin and,
yes I know you're bored of it, but we all are sinners
(tho the bible says believers actually are saints who
occasionally sin) so thank God for Jesus Christ who
brings forgiveness and salvation for the sinner.
Lastly, about women. It is a touchy and MISUNDERSTOOD
subject. The woman is valued and cherished by God.
What other faith teaches husbands to be ready to lay
down their lives for their wives? Her worth and
existance are equal to that of a man's. But her roles
and responsibilities are not. I personally don't think
the differing roles and responsibilities make her any
less of a human, or less worthy. Today's society may
judge those roles according to the trend du jour. But
for Christians, those roles are ordained from God,
they are timeless and eternal.
Hope I at least partially answered your cry for
understanding.
This thread has been so interesting and informative!
Vampyre
posted 10-22-98 03:40 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
Esther Trusler wrote:
Why is America so beautiful? It's because it was
founded on the priciples of Christianity in its most
pure forn. The good people who came to this country
were committed to a one on one relationship with God.
No inbetween church organization. Take a look at the
continent of South America and you will see what
Catholisism as a foundation creates. While it is true
that we must be kind and loving to each other, it is
also true that there is a cultural struggle going on
as to what World View will dominate in American
Society. Will it be the Christian Wold View? or A
Pagan World View?
There was once a Black Smith who was visited by a
friend. The friend notices a pile of broken hammers in
the corner of the black smiths shop. "Wow!," said the
friend, "Did you go through all these hammers?" Yes,
replied the black smith, over the years they just wear
out and I have to get a new one, "Well, how many
anvils have you gone through?" asked the friend. None
replied the black smith, I just have this same one and
it has stayed the same since I got it.
The anvil is Christianity and the hammers are all
types of paganism through the years. It doesn't matter
how much pagans seek to "educate" christians, we know
what is Truth because He lives inside of us and we are
becomming one with Him. " I am the way, the truth and
the life, no man cometh to the Father but by me."
Jesus
I recieved this e-mail at my home after discussing
this topic on the SunSpot BB. I felt you all might
enjoy reading it (and the reply below). If any of you
have any further comments for me understand they will
end up right back here, so you might as well just post
them here!!!! :)
Dear Esther Trusler:
Hello, I am not totally sure why you e-mailed me or what
you hope to accomplish by it. I am assuming (please
correct me on any part of this e-mail if it is wrong) that
this is in reference to my posts on the Sun Talk area.
Which, I must also assume, because of the content of my
posts and the tone of the words used, you ASSUMED, that I
am one of these "pagan religions". I hate to burst your
bubble, but NO I am not. I am a Christian. I believe in,
and try my best to walk with, GOD. Yet, this does not mean
I should close my ears and shut my eyes to the fact that
other people believe in different religions or no religion
at all. To believe that only people from YOUR religion are
right are just as bad as HITLER. Sorry, if that seems to
be a strong point, but look at the facts. Jews were killed
because they were jews. Christians were feed to lions
because they were Christians. Witches were burned at the
stake because they practiced their religion. It all comes
down to the same thing. God never said "Thou shalt not
kill except those who do not believe like you do!!!!"
Please....Think about that before you go thumping a bible
in someone's face again. I know it as well, and I also
practice it. The statement "Practice what you preach" does
not just apply to certain statements in the bible or just
the 10 commandments. It applies to ALL of Gods words. Do
unto others as you would have done unto you! :)
Sadema
posted 10-22-98 04:43 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
Vampyre,
It didn't sound to me that Esther was thumping her
bible in your face. I don't think she mean't to imply
that Christians will destroy pagan religions thru here
anvil/hammer analogy (and I can see how she thought
you might be Pagan given your username on SunSpot).
But you are right, people of all faiths have been
killed because of their faith, and people of all
faiths have killed becasue of their faith. Indeed God
does not command Christians to kill unbelievers.
Anyone who does so in the name of Christianity is
wrong and will be judged accordingly.
But, to say that thinking only the people from YOUR
religion are right is like Hitler is an inaccurage
analogy. First, because thinking your faith is the
ONLY way to truth and life is integrity and
conviction, not racism. There cannot be two truths
that contradict one another. I commend you for having
an open and interested eye in how people express
various faiths. I do too, and I think its interesting.
But I will still maintain that J.C. is the the Way,
the Truth, and the Life, and no one and nothing else
can be that. If I thought otherwise, then that would
severely diminish the God I worship and as well as my
own integrity and principles. I do not seek to destroy
others who I don't agree with (or in Hitler's case,
those he purely hated), but I will tell them about
Jesus Christ, in love, not in degrading or
disrespectful way.
sister_sanity
posted 10-22-98 06:13 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
Sadema, as regards the traditional Christian faith and
women. While many modern Christian sects are finally
realizing that women make capable clergy, most of them
are still in the dark about the 'role' of women as far
as I can tell. My biology need not dictate that I do
all the housework and cooking, have less pay for equal
work, get a poorer quality of education, and be solely
responsible for child care. There is nothing in the
biology of a man to say that he can't take an equal
share of home chores and childrearing, is inherently
more intelligent, or more moral and capable of
leadership.
Heinlein said, 'Money is truthful, when a man speaks
of honor, make him pay cash.' I believe that a man
respects me when he pays in the coin of equal
treatment, when he talks to me like a peer. Plainly
put, I expect a spouse to be a partner in ALL things,
my clergy to consider me more than a weaker vessel who
needs a 'head', and an employer to understand that a
career need not end because a woman had a baby. If you
agree to those things, why does anyone need to go on
about roles.
SphinxEyes
posted 10-22-98 07:28 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
I LOVE stuff like this--when several opposing sides
can get together and talk rationally--such is rare
however . Even you Sadema, must admit that there are
many hotheads in your religion (as I must admit there
are in mine). See, if all Christians were as you sound
(not knowing you well, I must take your word that
these are your real feelings on the subject--as you
must assume about me), then I wouldn't have ANY
problem with them--we could hang together and learn
from each other. If you believe you have TRULY found
the right path, then live your life like you have,
don't rely on smashing my religion to prove your right
(speaking generally here and not to you personally).
If we Wiccans seem a little sensitive, it's because
we're in the minority and too many people want to
judge us by sterotypes and not who we really are.
Majority opinions oftentimes have trouble seeing that
there is a legitimate oppossing viewpoint because
they're in the majority and hence "right".
Actually Thomas Jefferson was agnostic, and last time
I looked in my history book he was ONE of the
FOUNDERS. And there is NO WAY to PROVE an existence of
ANY deity, much less a god over a goddess (that's what
FAITH is--can't prove it, but believe it anyways). So,
then, my belief is just as valid as anyone else's (and
that includes Christians).
As for the comment about Freedom being a Christian
concept ( I don't THINK so). Look up Hammaurabi's Code
(which most of Judeau law is built upon). The
Assyrians and Persians were about as Pagan as you can
get. So freedom is a HUMAN concept. Even native
Americans believed in freedom (once again--they
weren't Christian till FORCED to be).
Now some final thoughts. You say Sadema that there
isn't inherent sexism in Christianity? Ok. let's see
if you have an answer to 2 of the questions that I've
asked MANY Christian leaders (the lack of a good
answer is one of the many reasons for my change in
religions). Goddess I LOVE theology.
#1- Adam was formed from God's own hands with the dust
of the ground. Eve was created FROM Adam's rib.
Inherent moral: Women are ONE step removed from
creation from the get go (not to mention made with
flawed materials-giggle).
#2-It is agreed by most Biblical scholars that Jesus's
earthly father, Joseph died between the time Jesus was
8 or 9 (the temple incident) and he was 30 (the water
to wine incident). So, the chances are EXTREMELY high
that Mary was a single mother. So if a single mother
was worthy to raise the son of god, then apparently a
"good strong head of the household husband type" is
not necessary in Christianity.
Last but not least, Sadema, I'm glad you have found
your way. All we Wiccans ask is that our way be given
just as much respect. Hopefully you're a pastor, youth
minister or some kind of person in a position of
authority in your church. Christianity needs more like
you.
BTW: I don't own a Ouija board, I don't talk to the
dead (it's rude to disturb them), and the only crystal
ball I have has snow in it and a winter scene .
Apocalypse7
posted 10-23-98 10:26 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit,
dividing to every man severally as he will. Now there are
diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are
diversities of administrations, but the same Lord. And there
are diversities of operations, but it is THE SAME GOD THAT
WORKETH ALL IN ALL. But the manifestation of the
Spirit is given to EVERY MAN to profit withal... For
as THE BODY IS ONE, AND HATH MANY MEMBERS, and all the
members of that ONE BODY, being MANY, are ONE body, SO
ALSO IS CHRIST. For by ONE SPIRIT we are all baptized
into ONE body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether
we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink
into ONE SPIRIT. For the body is not one member, but
MANY ...Now Ye are the body of Christ, and members in
particular.
Apocalypse7
posted 10-23-98 10:29 AM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
The closed-mindedness of those stuck in religious dogma is
beyond belief," said John, shaking his head. "This was
demonstrated by Joshua when He raised Lazarus from the
dead after he was three days in the grave. Instead of
converting the religious leaders, it just inflamed them
and hastened the crucifixion. The leaders also knew
without doubt that Christ was raised from the dead, for He
appeared to them after the resurrection so they would be
without excuse. Even this did not convert them and they
fought all the harder against His followers. When the
average person has his mind centered on a belief, only the
destruction of the world created by that belief will
change him. That can happen by an inner or outer collapse.
Vampyre
posted 10-23-98 04:23 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
Daily Quote: It does me no injury for my neighbor to
say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks
my pocket nor breaks my leg. -- Thomas Jefferson
I believe Jefferson was on to something here! :)
SphinxEyes
posted 10-23-98 04:38 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
Why is it that Christians are always quoting from the
Bible (not understanding that there are people that
DON'T take it as the literal word of God). That would
be like me trying to argue with a Communist using the
US Constitution
Light and love,
Sekhmet, who BTW if she wanted to quote scirptures and
not have them make ANY sense, or be in any form of a
recognizeable arguement could do it in a heartbeat.
Sadema
posted 10-23-98 06:27 PM ET
-------------------------------------------------------
sister sanity,
I agree with everything you said. The roles that God
has ordained have nothing to do with the issues you
bring up. Of course women should get equal pay for
equal work, equal education. I've never felt from
reading my Bible that God thinks we are less capable,
less intelligent, less worthy, or anything. On the
contrary, I feel immensely loved and cherished by my
Lord beyond measure! Please read Proverbs 31:10-31
about what kind of woman pleases God. The woman I read
in there is intelligent, a leader, strong, loving,
respectful, kind, capable...see for yourself! Now, if
people treat women as less intelligent, less capable,
etc, that's a different issue. Don't blame God for the
sins of man.
Personally, I do think MOST woman's biologies are more
suited for nurturing wherea's MOST men's biologies are
suited for handling high pressure, decision-making
stuff. I'm NOT saying women are incapable of doing
traditional 'manly things' nor are men incapable of
doing traditional 'woman things'. It comes down to
roles. Read on....
SphinxEyes,
I'd be happy to chat with you over email. Although I
don't claim I will have the answers, I enjoy being
challanged in my beliefs.
Regarding T.J., I put in another post that I read
(also in a history book), that he was a Diest. I
wasn't trying to prove or disprove the existence of
God, I don't think thats possible. I guess by saying
that there can't be two truths implicitly invalidated
your belief. Let's just say that my goal isn't to
invalidate your beliefs. Your beliefs invalidate mine
as well. Thats the nature of the beast! My goal is to
tell you about my Lord Jesus Christ since you are
interested.
About Freedom, I didn't mean freedom was solely a
Christian concept. Of course it isn't. I mean't
freedom is A big concept in Christianity. Its the
basis of the faith--freedom from sin, freedom from
death. We are FREE in Christ whereas before we were
slaves to sin. People should never be forced to accept
Christ. What good is that? Love and faithfulness are
only fulfilling to the receipent when the giver
chooses freely to give. You know that old saying about
setting something you love free, if it comes back,
yadda yadda....
Before I answer your questions, I just want you to
know that alot of Christian beliefs are based on a
deep trust that God is GOOD! He is JUST and He is
TRUSTWORTHY. If our God is truly so mighty and
perfect, we cannot lean on our own understanding and
attempt to fully comprehend His ways. We just trust,
its called faith and thats where we start. Now, to
your questions....
When God created Eve, Adam had not sinned and was
perfect, therefore the material was not flawed it was
as perfect and glorious as the day one. I don't see
how the moral you deduce is relevant to Eve's worth.
What difference would it have made if they were both
created at the same time from the same dirt? As a
matter of fact, it was because of man's loneliness
that the value and necessity of a woman came to be. It
was God's way of saying: Look Man, you ain't gonna
make it alone, you need a woman! I think alot of men
could use that lesson! Again, being created second
does not lower the worth of a woman. Is a child less
worthy than her mother because she was taken out of
the mother? Is a 2 year old less worthy than a 20 year
old because he was created later?
Your second point touches on the roles ordained by
God. Just because Mary was a single mother doesn't
invalidate that a man should be the head of a
household. God doesn't require widows to remarry in
order to have a 'head'. As a matter of fact, He cares
dearly for widows and repeatly commands his followers
to care for them and watch over them. In the absence
of a husband, then Christ acts as the woman's husband,
her head of the household. *IF* she (or any woman) was
to marry, then her husband is given that role, he
would become accountable to God for the going on's of
the household. Not that Christ is no longer her head,
but again, it comes down to roles. Why roles? Because
they are necessary. Think of it this way...if in your
place of work, everybody had equal roles and
responsibilities, what on earth would ever get done?!
People are assigned certain roles and responsibilities
so that the business and the employees (ie the
household and the lives of the members) would grow and
be happy and get along comfortably and get things
done. And these roles are preferably assigned to those
who are most suited for them. If the hubby can wash
dishes and cook better than the wife, then more power
to him. THere is nothing in the word of God that says
thats a woman thing. As is the case, God has assigned
the man to be the head. He also commands that he love
and respect his wife and not lord over her.
Well, this is getting very long and there's more I can
say but I have to go. Have a good weekend.
S.
btw, I'll be gone for the weekend so don't think I'm
ignoring you....
