earthpages asked this question on 3/18/2000:

I just read your profile about so-called PDs. My take is that many psychiatric labels are culture-bound and can be demonstrated on purely rational grounds to be invalid. To this effect I've actually analyzed the DSM-IIIr criteria for Schizophrenia from a multi-disciplinary perspective. I realize the DSM-IIIr is probably outdated a bit today, but would bet from other psychiatric-related discourse that the thrust of my paper still applies.

At any rate, could you please tell me what the "latest and official" classification system is in psychchiatry today?

M

Feel free to browse through my paper..

http://ep.artshost.com

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/18/2000:

I am going to take a look at your paper and see what you have written. I do have some questions I would be very interested to know coming from someone as educated as yourself. What are your sources that state Personality Disorders are culture bound. How many Physicians did you interview and how many of them agreed with you statement that they are invalid on "rational grounds?" Do you know anyone with any "mental illness of any kind?" Do you know of anyone who has dealt with a severe head injury? How many patients with "so-called" personality disorders did you interview for your paper? Have you studied any of Dr. Marsha Linehan's groundbreaking work, on certain "disorders," and the new treatment that she believes is best? What do you think of this new treatment compared to other forms, "more outdated?" Since this is an area I have spent a great deal of time researching, through books and field work, I would really like to know your opinion of the millon inventories as well, they update them every year. I think these are valid and relevant questions, to be able to answer your question in full detail. Being as educated as you appear to be, if you could give me the very "basic" answers to these questions, it will probably save both of us a great deal of valuable time, and save either of us from being repetitive. I'll look at your paper and will be looking forward to your reply. One last question, have you ever had any "field experience," working with people with "personality disorders, or any "mental disorders" of any kind, excluding drug addicts, and alcoholics?

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/18/2000:

I was unable to gain access to your paper even with the URL which I cut and pasted in the freeyellow browser, so I could not read what you had to say. However, you have given me some information that I needed to know by telling me, where you studied and you gave me some detail in which you did work with mental patients, however, to what capicity you were involved, is still unknown. First, I would like to state right from the beginning that even in the early stages of psychological study, there are very few, if any, absolutes. It is not a exact science. I would still like to know how many physicians and patients that you interviewed, to come to the conclusion you have. What do you think of Dr. Linehan's approach? Since it is now being used across the states, and it is a different approach used than in previous days of psychiatric and psychological evaluation? How did you dispute the findings that state that some personality disorders are heriditary? How did you dispute that PTSD can be so severe, and without treatment, the personality disorder usually linked with it, find it's roots grounded in trauma? I have heard the term "bogus" but not when defining psychological disorders. What were your duties while working with inpatients? Most people with "personality disorders" are not inpatients, so I would really be interested to hear what the ones you worked with gave you as information that you felt you could disprove. There is one basic guideline for psychological disorders, whether they are classified as "mental disorders," or "personality disorders," or "psychotic" disorders. People's chemistry, and the lives they have led have some bearing on how they will react to different medications. Ex. There is not just one form of medication used for "panic" disorder. Please let me know what you think of Dr. Linehan's discoveries, and why you think they have taken such deep roots into the changing of therapy techniques so quickly? I believe that there is one other factor that you have left out, and that is you can dispute psychological theories with the same logic you use to prove them, because it is not an exact science. I know this to be factual as well, the beginning premise for "personality disorders," has been researched enough that if you study the research I don't see how it was possible for you to come with the theory that they don't exist. Most personality disorders, such as Borderline, are so complex one would have to focus all of one's time for an extended period, just to prove that one does not exist. There are doctors who will not accept patients with this disorder, because they find the person, "complex," and "draining. I would really like to read your paper, and if any of the words are difficult to understand, I have abundunt resources to finding out what a term means. Please send a copy of your paper to pagepainter2000@yahoo.com, and then that will give you the time to read the questions I am asking you, and for you to send an answer, and I can read your paper, and see how it stands up against some of the different theories. One last thing, if you are planning to go into the psychological field, you might want to not close off so quickly because you find something that states what you're looking for. There will always be information to dispute it. I've done enough field work with people to know that the illness can be as individual as the individual itself. I've also interviewed many psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, but the most sincere answers seem to come from the patient dealing with the problems that continually seem to overwhelm them, at different stages, and different symptoms, but they all will tell you one thing. "If you have not walked in my shoes, do not tell me that what is happening to me is not real." If you wish to work within the " psychiatric community" that is one thing that is essential to remember. You see, when it all comes down to the bottom line, it doesn't matter what you believe, it matters what the "patient with the disorder" believes if you want to help them. I will be looking forward eagerly to reading your paper, and I would like to know what was the basis of writing the paper to begin with? Was it a doctor, teacher, etc...... Thanks again, Thank-you,

earthpages asked this follow-up question on 3/19/2000:

Hi,

If you go to my website (listed on my 'profile') and then click on "Schizophrenia" you should be able to read the paper. The freeyellow server does time out a bit too often; this probably is why you couldn't pull it up. I might have to change the URL in future..

I'm pretty busy but will answer very quickly some of your questions (interspersed below):

***** First, I would like to state right from the beginning that even in the early stages of psychological study, there are very few, if any, absolutes. It is not a exact science.

I agree on both points ***** I would still like to know how many physicians and patients that you interviewed, to come to the conclusion you have.

You are assuming that this is my method of inquiry.. and perhaps implying that it is the only valid one (?)

***** What do you think of Dr. Linehan's approach?

I'm afraid I'm not familiar... if you haven't given a URL in previus note, please forward.. ***** How did you dispute the findings that state that some personality disorders are heriditary?

I am disputing the classification scheme, not that people are upset or having a difficult time in their social environment. ***** How did you dispute that PTSD can be so severe, and without treatment, the personality disorder usually linked with it, find it's roots grounded in trauma?

same as above. In my original paper I note that some may be worse off without treatment... I'm not "anti-therapy" by any stretch of the imagination. *****

I have heard the term "bogus" but not when defining psychological disorders.

Again, the classification scheme, not that people suffer from being different. ***** What were your duties while working with inpatients? Most people with "personality disorders" are not inpatients, so I would really be interested to hear what the ones you worked with gave you as information that you felt you could disprove.

Good point.. I was just mentioning your piece on PD's to enter into a general disussion about psyciatric labeling. Although I heard from one so-called "manic-depressive" (diagnosed by one doctor) that he was labelled by a *different* doctor as having a "personality disorder." So I'm not so sure that you're right on this point. ***** There is one basic guideline for psychological disorders, whether they are classified as "mental disorders," or "personality disorders," or "psychotic" disorders.

Could you please tell me what the recognized class. scheme in the USA is today?--i.e. used in hospitals. You see, up here in Canada, particularly in ONtario, we have 100% state-funded medicine. So there is one labeling system that has social legitimacy and power... if you're not familiar with these ideas you might look at a good general sociology textbook--not social psychology.. ***** People's chemistry, and the lives they have led have some bearing on how they will react to different medications. Ex. There is not just one form of medication used for "panic" disorder. Please let me know what you think of Dr. Linehan's discoveries, and why you think they have taken such deep roots into the changing of therapy techniques so quickly?

Again, please forward a URL if possible.. ***** I believe that there is one other factor that you have left out, and that is you can dispute psychological theories with the same logic you use to prove them, because it is not an exact science. I know this to be factual as well, the beginning premise for "personality disorders," has been researched enough that if you study the research I don't see how it was possible for you to come with the theory that they don't exist.

From my perspective you're caught in a cultural bias. *****

Most personality disorders, such as Borderline, are so complex one would have to focus all of one's time for an extended period, just to prove that one does not exist. There are doctors who will not accept patients with this disorder, because they find the person, "complex," and "draining. I would really like to read your paper, and if any of the words are difficult to understand, I have abundunt resources to finding out what a term means. Please send a copy f your paper to pagepainter2000@yahoo.com, and then hat will give you the time to read the questions I am asking you, and for you to send an answer, and I can read your paper, and see how it stands up against some of the different theories. One last thing, if you are planning to go into the psychological field,

I'm more interested in religion

***** you might want to not close off so quickly because you find something that states what you're looking for. There will always be information to dispute it. I've done enough field work with people to know that the illness can be as individual as the individual itself. I've also interviewed many psychiatrists, psychologists, therapists, but the most sincere answers seem to come from the patient dealing with the problems that continually seem to overwhelm them, at different stages, and different symptoms, but they all will tell you one thing. "If you have not walked in my shoes, do not tell me that what is happening to me is not real."

I'm not disputing their feelings and also believe that they have unique experiences... We're probably MUCH closer that you would imagine, just coming at the problem from different angles...

***** If you wish to work within the " psychiatric community" that is one thing that is essential to remember. You see, when it all comes down to the bottom line, it doesn't matter what you believe, it matters what the "patient with the disorder" believes if you want to help them. I will be looking forward eagerly to reading your paper, and I would like to know what was the basis of writing the paper to begin with? Was it a doctor, teacher, etc...... Thanks again, Thank-you,

Thanks very much for your interest and for your detailed reply,

Mike

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/19/2000:

Mike- Now that you have put forth the effort to answer my questions, and do this in an honest and reputable way, (I may disagree) but that means nothing as far as what you are saying is valid. First let me say that whatever field you go into, you will be a first rate success at, and I admire your tenacity, and your unwillingness to retreat on something that you believe is true. I'm truly impressed. This is some information to explain some of my questions. 1) as far as sociology, if there is no private funded hospitals, it must make it that much more difficult to validate. Yet you fight a very strong case in your conclusions, and I find that admirable. I know that you don't need my approval or acceptance, but I just wanted to compliment you on some of your methods. In this world too often, we find ourselves so busy looking at the negative, and pointing it out, we forget the positive, and I just wanted to complement you on taking a stand. (that is certainly rare these days) Dr. Marsha Linehan works at the University of Washington medical university in Seattle, Wa. and she has found that in treating "borderline" patients, that it is better to use a new form of therapy, called Dialectical Behavior Therapy. If you type Borderline, into society, it is almost impossible that her name will not show up, because she is the doctor who found this method on treating "borderline" disorders. In DBT, you don't put patients in a hospital, you treat them as outpatients, and that way they learn the new techniques while facing reality at the same time, as opposed to being "protected" by a hospital. My explanation of why doctors come up with different diagnosis is two-fold when it comes to personality disorders. 1) The psychiatric community has a clash of egos bigger than the clash of the Titans :-) 2) For ex. A Borderline person's mind is always in one of 3 modes of action. Now depending on which stage they are in, and what doctor they see, they will begin to become diagnosed with numerous "mental" disorders, because the doctor has not seen the patient in all 3 modes long enough to recognize it as any different, according to doctors who do believe "personality disorders" are valid. I've seen to much of what I consider to be "proof" to say that "personality disorders" are invalid. I will look up and read your paper, and I hope you always stay standing tall in what you find as truth. It is so very rare, and very admirable. I want you to know that I admire people who stand for what they believe in, even if someone tries to take it away, they will never be able to do so because you don't give your principles away to "smooth out the wrinkles," so to speak. I wish you all the success in the world with whatever field you do choose to work in. I hope you will recoginize my compliments as real, I know you don't need them, but then again, do you know anyone who can have too many good things said about them? There is just one thing that I had a problem with, when you are so set in your beliefs, along comes a tone of condescencion that is not warranted. You said that I could ask you what something meant, if the world was too "technical, but most of it was fairly simple. I can promise you this, if in the future when you are discussing whatever you believe in any area, and it appears that you are talking "on their level," and they have been educated, in their opinion, more than you, you will eventually insult the wrong person. If you insult an important person, (not someone like me) it may change your goals and achievements because you insulted someone who has the ability to help you get to where you want to be. You mentioned religion, it's also true in religion as well. I don't know a single soul who appreciates someone talking to them in a condescending manner. This is just a question, that I don't need an answer to but would like you to think about, have you ever read about Gandhi, or Christ? They were very much grounded in their beliefs, but they spoke to people evenly, no matter what position or area of financial status they were living in, they were all talked to in the same manner, and it worked well for both of them, while they were alive.

Imhere2listen_help gave this follow-up answer on

3/19/2000: Mike- Now that you have put forth the effort to answer my questions, and do this in an honest and reputable way, (I may disagree) but that means nothing as far as what you are saying is valid. First let me say that whatever field you go into, you will be a first rate success at, and I admire your tenacity, and your unwillingness to retreat on something that you believe is true. I'm truly impressed. This is some information to explain some of my questions. 1) as far as sociology, if there is no private funded hospitals, it must make it that much more difficult to validate. Yet you fight a very strong case in your conclusions, and I find that admirable. I know that you don't need my approval or acceptance, but I just wanted to compliment you on some of your methods. In this world too often, we find ourselves so busy looking at the negative, and pointing it out, we forget the positive, and I just wanted to complement you on taking a stand. (that is certainly rare these days) Dr. Marsha Linehan works at the University of Washington medical university in Seattle, Wa. and she has found that in treating "borderline" patients, that it is better to use a new form of therapy, called Dialectical Behavior Therapy. If you type Borderline, into society, it is almost impossible that her name will not show up, because she is the doctor who found this method on treating "borderline" disorders. In DBT, you don't put patients in a hospital, you treat them as outpatients, and that way they learn the new techniques while facing reality at the same time, as opposed to being "protected" by a hospital. My explanation of why doctors come up with different diagnosis is two-fold when it comes to personality disorders. 1) The psychiatric community has a clash of egos bigger than the clash of the Titans :-) 2) For ex. A Borderline person's mind is always in one of 3 modes of action. Now depending on which stage they are in, and what doctor they see, they will begin to become diagnosed with numerous "mental" disorders, because the doctor has not seen the patient in all 3 modes long enough to recognize it as any different, according to doctors who do believe "personality disorders" are valid. I've seen to much of what I consider to be "proof" to say that "personality disorders" are invalid. I will look up and read your paper, and I hope you always stay standing tall in what you find as truth. It is so very rare, and very admirable. I want you to know that I admire people who stand for what they believe in, even if someone tries to take it away, they will never be able to do so because you don't give your principles away to "smooth out the wrinkles," so to speak. I wish you all the success in the world with whatever field you do choose to work in. I hope you will recoginize my compliments as real, I know you don't need them, but then again, do you know anyone who can have too many good things said about them? There is just one thing that I had a problem with, when you are so set in your beliefs, along comes a tone of condescencion that is not warranted. You said that I could ask you what something meant, if the world was too "technical, but most of it was fairly simple. I can promise you this, if in the future when you are discussing whatever you believe in any area, and it appears that you are talking "on their level," and they have been educated, in their opinion, more than you, you will eventually insult the wrong person. If you insult an important person, (not someone like me) it may change your goals and achievements because you insulted someone who has the ability to help you get to where you want to be. You mentioned religion, it's also true in religion as well. I don't know a single soul who appreciates someone talking to them in a condescending manner. This is just a question, that I don't need an answer to but would like you to think about, have you ever read about Gandhi, or Christ? They were very much grounded in their beliefs, but they spoke to people evenly, no matter what position or area of financial status they were living in, they were all talked to in the same manner, and it worked well for both of them, while they were alive.

earthpages asked this follow-up question on 3/19/2000:

I agree that we shouldn't talk down to people. And I don't know if I meant to do so by saying that some terms were technical. If you look at my paper it's not that fantastically written and some folks have said that it is a bit hard to get. Why? Because I'm squishing in a lot of terms from sociological theory within a fairly tight space. But I see from your 'clash of the Titans' comment that there is much more to you than I had supposed. It's hard in e-mail/forums also because there is so much room for misinterpretation (tone of voice, facial expression, and body language are absent). Yes, I might have been being a bit "dry" by essentially saying 'go get a sociology text book' but at the same time I found your list of questions to be somewhat overwhelming and overwhelmingly focussed in one particular perspective. To repeat, however, I do appreciate the merits of what you do and of empiricism in general. I try to be as empirical as possible. But my empiricism differs from, for instance, the questionairre model, or even the interview model. But I do enjoy hearing about the results from such studies.

For myself, psychology was too restricing so I switched my major to sociology. I then found that I had to keep broadening my approach in order for my studies to remain personally relevant.

I really hope you can get the paper... Freeyellow just gets busy. I've pulled it up twice today on different computers on different ISP's, so I really think you'll get it if you try a few times over the next little while.

Hey.. I agree. Simple is good. Thank you for your reply, wonderful compliments, and genuine concern.

Mike

earthpages asked this follow-up question on 3/19/2000:

..that typo should read "restrictive"

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/20/2000:

Mike, I will read your paper one day, I can tell you that. I won't give up trying to read it. I hope you understand that when I was talking to you about being condescending, it was not meant to be a mean statement. I agree with you one hundred percent about the difficulty of being able to see or hear the tone which puts things in a different perspective. I have seen friendships, and marraiges ruined because of misunderstandings on the www. Please accept my apology if I said anything that was harsh. I have a problem coming across too strong sometimes. I really meant the compliments I gave you. I don't give a compliment unless it is sincere. I do believe that complimenting others is something severly lacking in the world today. I think an extra min. of my time, and a few kind words is a small price to pay, when I'm standing in line and the cashier is having a bad day, to find some kind words that might make her feel better. I just think it's extremely important to create as much of a positive and quality life as possible. Thanks again, for giving me new food for thought.

Imhere2listen_help gave this follow-up answer on

3/20/2000: Mike, I will read your paper one day, I can tell you that. I won't give up trying to read it. I hope you understand that when I was talking to you about being condescending, it was not meant to be a mean statement. I agree with you one hundred percent about the difficulty of being able to see or hear the tone which puts things in a different perspective. I have seen friendships, and marraiges ruined because of misunderstandings on the www. Please accept my apology if I said anything that was harsh. I have a problem coming across too strong sometimes. I really meant the compliments I gave you. I don't give a compliment unless it is sincere. I do believe that complimenting others is something severly lacking in the world today. I think an extra min. of my time, and a few kind words is a small price to pay, when I'm standing in line and the cashier is having a bad day, to find some kind words that might make her feel better. I just think it's extremely important to create as much of a positive and quality life as possible. Thanks again, for giving me new food for thought.

earthpages asked this follow-up question on 3/20/2000:

No offense taken whatsoever. I'm glad that we have reached some kind of an agreement. It's so easy to find difference, much harder to find commonality. Some thrive on fighting; I enjoy peacemaking! I was probably partly reacting to the fact that I became sort of disenchanted with clinical psyc. as it was taught in the Canadian university system, and I imagine beyond. But I still try to keep up on the major developments and findings. WHen I get a chance I will seek out the doctor you mention in the local library. Any sincere attempt to revitalize and truly advance therapy sounds good to me..

I also agree that a positive attitude to life creates wonderful opportunities for understanding and relating to others.

Thanks for your reply,

Mike

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/21/2000:

Mike, I sat here and wrote you some information that probably took me 30 mins to write, and when I clicked on send, it wiped it out. I apologize but this site has been going haywire on my end, and now I've got the flu, so I apologize about taking so long to reply, and I will rewrite the answer with all of the new information and send it to you, however, I am going to wait, till my head is not so fogged up, and dizzy. Take Care.\ Brenda Sue

earthpages asked this follow-up question on 3/21/2000:

Thank you for your effort! I've been having problems with this host too. It seems to have a timer on it now... so you might try composing first on a word processor and then copying and pasting into the frame here. It also might be due to the fact that they just changed over to a new layout and are still working out the bugs.

I hope you're feeling better soon. Take time to rest before replying. I'll be here!

Thanks,

Mike

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/23/2000:

Mike I just wanted to let you know that I haven't forgotten about your question. I'm still really sick, and I will do my best to get back with you as soon as I can. I also have a suggestion. Let me know what you think. It might be easier to communicate through e-mail than to keep using the site. Would you feel comfortable trading e-mails? If you're answer is no, I won't be offended, I just thought it might be easier than talking through this site. I will get back to you as soon as I can. Brenda Sue

earthpages asked this follow-up question on 3/23/2000:

Hi Brenda Sue,

I was feeling a bit sick to my stomache yesterday for a very short while and thought of you. Sure, e-mail is fine. I don't check it quite as regularly as this board, but that's fine too. I always begin by giving people my 'outer' address so my private ISP address will (hopefully) remain ad-free. So try here if you like:

earthpages@angelfire.com

I'm the only person checking this address.

..hope you're feeling better.

Mike

Imhere2listen_help gave this response on 3/25/2000:

Mike, Thanks for writing back, I'm still not doing well, but I feel compelled to do something. My address is nala382000@yahoo.com. I would like to know how you go about getting a private ISP address, the idea of being free of ads, woulb be wonderful. If you check this board more regularly, it's fine with me to leave as in, but I don't know if it gets frustrating to you or not, on rating answers. Please let me know what you decide, and help me get back to the questions at hand. I'm hoping a couple more days will get rid of this bug for good. Will be looking here for your response. Take Care Brenda Sue

The average rating for this answer is 5.

earthpages rated this answer a 5.