TR> and the choices made which of significance. The fruit itself
TR> was merely the standard, the 'test' by which Adam and Eve were
TR> tried.

Isn't god supposed to be an omniscient being?

He KNEW what the test would result in. Why did he bother to conduct the test?

He KNEW Adam and Eve would eat the fruit from that tree. Why did he put the tree there?

He KNEW Adam and Eve would go against his word. Why did he let them?

He KNEW that the serpent would make Eve eat the fruit. Why didn't he do anything to prevent it?

Why can't you fundies get a simple thing clear in your heads that if god exists and really did create the world then the fall of Adam and Eve and the rest that would follow them was a deliberate attempt on god's part?

You cannot grant god the power of omniscience and then deny that whatever happened was not deliberate.

Adam and Eve sinned because god WANTED them to sin. In any case god did nothing to SAVE them from it despite knowing that they WILL sin.

_HE_ didn't give one single, solitary, flying fuck if HIS children were damned to hell. Instead of preventing it he staged it and then turned around and told them that it was THEIR fault.

So bless me my father, why didn't you keep me from doing what you KNEW I would do. Perhaps you hold that this question is trying to shift the blame? Maybe, maybe not.

Who made the world? god.
Who made the garden of eden? god.
Who made Adam? god.
Who made Eve? god
Who made the serpent? god.
Who made the tree? god.
Who made the fruit? god.
Who made the rules? god.

God created Adam so god must have KNOWN what he was creating, right? Then further down in the message you say:

TR> God made man to love and to know Him. "Love", in the end, is a
TR> choice (and a mushy sentiment or passion.) The possibility that
TR> man would NOT love God,

Why DID god leave this possibility when the KNEW what would happen IF he left the possibility? Experimenting with us like we do with rats?

Since you seem to have 'interpreted' the bible in such a constructive way, perhaps you can answer a few of the simple questions that I have asked?

Do you have children Tim? If you don't, let us assume that some day in the future you will. Let us further assume that you somehow got to know that your offspring was going to take part in a burglary in order to get some loose cash. Under such a circumstance, would you sit and wait till the burglary has been committed and your child has been jailed and then go over and further greet them with harsh words and promises of punishment OR would you rather approach your child BEFORE the deed is done and try to persuade - heck I had say you would even tie or chain them up rather than let them do what they intend to? Would you sit calmly doing nothing just because, 'Hey, I have TOLD my kids that they shouldn't steal. My responsibility is over. If they get busted its their fault'. Would this be your mode of conduct Tim?

What would you do Tim? Tell me, I am dying to know. Tell me what does your bible teach. Does it teach you that if you KNOW your children are going to do a wrong thing you must do nothing to prevent it or does it teach you that you must do EVERYTHING to prevent it?

I am given to understand that god has an infinite amount of love for his children. Would you also be kind enough to explain to me what happened to this love when god snugly watched his children commit their sin of which he KNEW even before he had created them?

Give me some answers. PLEASE!

And my most important question. Since god knew everything WHY was the test a necessity? What was god trying to establish or prove? And to whom? Certainly not to himself, I presume, because HE is omniscient?

TR> If you saw what the real significance of "the fruit" was,
TR> you might have an easier time understanding the importance,
TR> and indeed "fairness" of the entir incident. Remember, it
TR> was not God who betrayed Adam and Eve, but vice vers

No sir, it WAS god who betrayed Adam and Eve. HE could have saved them but HE CHOSE NOT TO. He instead chose to PERSONALLY let them know of their fate and one cannot but marvel at HIS insolence that he let this act be recorded in history to be picked up and beaten to death by anyone who had the ability to THINK without being scared or concerned about him or his fraudulent laws and commandments.

TR> The sad truth is, you're not unique in your over-zealous
TR> devotion to the physical sciences. It's actually not hard to
TR> understand why you "think" as you do, given the cultural
TR> climant (you do realize that evolution is

It is not over-zealous devotion to science. In fact it is the indifference of science to anything that makes it popular. When science says the temperature is 30 degrees, the temperature IS 30 degrees. Science won't say that for christians the temperature is 30 degrees, for mohameddans it is 25 degrees, for hindus it is 46 degrees.

Science does not give a damn WHO you are or what you believe. Science says the speed of sound is so many meters per second, it doesn't give different speeds for different religions or faith. Something you cannot say for your bible because christians believe that the prayers THEY are (m)uttering will reach god FASTER than those being (m)uttered by the jews and so on and so forth.

Religion is your typical PR personnel of today. All smiles, telling you EXACTLY what you WANT to hear, knowing EXACTLY where your weak spot is, playing with your FEAR of death due to the uncertainty of its after math, but all said and done truly interested only in maintaining you as a total sucker of a consumer who won't DARE to go to any other vendor for fear of being denied salvation.

Science doesn't use threats. It doesn't try to persuade. It doesn't argue. Science says what it wants to say and shuts up and carries on with its job leaving YOU to decide if you want anything of it or not and caring not if you do or don't.

And most important of all, Science is neither afraid nor ashamed to acknowledge a mistake if it makes one. Science doesn't make up, nor does it need, any excuses. It is not a supernatural phenomenon but a tool in the hands of man and man is not an absolute entity of perfection and neither has any man having even a semblance of sanity ever claimed otherwise. Another thing that cannot be said about fundies. When was the last time that any ONE of YOU acknowledged that you MIGHT have been mistaken? You even have the audacity to deny your error - mostly comprising of blatant lies - when it is dished to you on a silver platter with water-cress around it.

Science is willing to co-exist WITH man or under the heel of man. It doesn't demand to be placed on a pedestal and be worshipped.

Religion offers you concepts, salvation, peace, happiness, one-ness with god, eternal life.

Science offers you something more concrete, computers, planes, ships, man made satellites, hubble telescopes, movies on laser disks, air conditioners, food preservatives, fertilizers, refrigerators ... YOU know the list is endless as you also know that you can't spend one single day without reaping the benefit of some thing or another that has been possible ONLY through the materialist, heathen Science. The humble facet of existence which, in denying itself glory, invites all the flak that it doesn't deserve because some people are too blind to see. Now I know whom god must have meant when he said, 'they have eyes but they cannot see' (provided of course that god DID say that, again, no proof).

When was the last time religion offered something new? Has it managed to add even ONE word to what it can offer? Why? Why this inability despite its all potent power?

I am a physical entity. My needs are physical, supply them. I have no control over my hunger, I MUST have food. I am incapable of living in the open in winter I NEED a room with a source of heat in it. I will fall sick if I get drenched in the rain, I NEED some form protection. Religion offers me things that will be useful to me after I am dead. Science offers me what I need when I am alive.

If I believe in religion then I must also believe that if I am suffering or will suffer it is not because of MY fault or Satan's interference but because it was god's deliberate wish - as written in HIS book - to see me suffer.

In which case I don't give a fuck about him and decide to making life as comfortable as possible to my material self.

You explain to me (and convince me why it was required and right of god to do what he did) why were Adam and Eve not prevented from committing the first sin that would - eventually - make ME suffer, when god KNEW what would happen and I will go back to god. Deal?

How would you feel if you were randomly picked up from a crowd and hanged for a murder that was committed six thousand years ago by some ancestor of yours (a thing that can't be proved)? Won't you demand an explanation and question the logic? Well so do I. Why - and what right does god have - should I suffer for the sin of Adam and Eve? I wasn't party to it and I don't care if I have descended from them, which if I have, is because god WILLED it so, in which case it is again not MY fault. Why has god been prosecuting me for such a long time?

TR> not driven, particularly in its early days, by science as
TR> much as by philisophical/religious motives, don't you?)

No I don't. Evolution was happening a long before a human being even came into existance. Of course, that means going against the 'fact' that man was 'made' (and a shoddy bit of workmanship that was).

TR> in particular. But rather the slavish devotion to the idea
TR> that the physica sciences are anything more than "shifting
TR> sands" for the most part, and not capable of providing certain
TR> knowledge. Let alone about the "why" of the

Apart from people who believe in god no one is really interested in "why", except when they are down in the dumps and at that stage they are more likely to ask, "why ME". I could be wrong in generalizing on the non believing population but that is my opinion, only those who seek god seek the answer to "why". Speaking for myself I don't ask why and don't care. I am content to keep kicking god in his balls while yelling "why ME".

TR> universe, and all within. You'd be safer appealing to reason
TR> and philisophi discourse for that. Or even more certain, the
TR> knowledge had via true faith.

When was the last time that the 'knowledge' gained via faith cured you - or anyone - of what would have been a wasting disease even today if it weren't for science?

TR> with the attainment of "free will" and "sentience". But such
TR> is nonsense, f both were excercised, according to the text in
TR> question, from the begining o man's existance (prior to "the
TR> fall.")

The question still stands, why did god let them commit a sin when he could easily have prevented it? Sounds like he is a sadist who likes to see others suffer.

TR> Satan had this free will. He chose one way, Michael and the
TR> others chose th

So the only right free will is the one that keeps you always grounded under the merciless heel of god? I am not surprised, I didn't think that an egoistic homicidal lunatic like your god could ever digest the thought of having an EQUAL.

TR> God made man to love and to know Him. "Love", in the end, is
TR> a choice (and a mushy sentiment or passion.) The possibility
TR> that man would NOT love God, had to be left open, if love were
TR> to be genuine.

No it did not 'have' to be left open. God could have made man love him without having to punish him into misery and forcing man to come dragging on his knees, licking his father's ass to PROVE that man loved him.

Have you ever bothered to consider that it is more likely that a hardened criminal would change with a few kind words as compared to the hardest of punishments that could be inflicted on him?

Or maybe that is the going to the next coup of god? After watching so many millions sacrificed to hell because HE did not WANT to save them from it, he will now step in and say, 'See how good I am, I will forgive you'. My now THAT is what I call SHREWD god.

TR> Thus, God's plans were not messed up. In fact, precisely
TR> what He had established to happen, happened.

BY JOVE! You have knocked me. Absolutely. I am stunned and not a little shocked and shaken out of myself.

I didn't read your full message before hitting R to reply and hence I did not know it contained this nuke in it.

And you have not the slightest hesitation in making such a bold confession? That all our sufferings exist because god WANTED us to suffer? Do you realize the implications behind that statement?

Was that a slip of the keyboard or do you really mean it?

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