MA> And you have never heard a woman call a man "Baby," in that MA> same way?"Hey BABY great bod, how about you and me get together". In real life, not TV not movies, I have never had the displeasure of hearing a woman talk that way about a man. Fortunately, I've hardly ever heard men talk that way about women, but I have heard it. The point is not whether you or I have heard people talk this way, the point is cultural norms. Thirty years ago it was not culturally acceptable for women to talk this way, but it was culturally acceptable for men to do so. Today it is still mostly culturally acceptable for a man to talk this way, the fact that it is becoming culturally acceptable for women as well does not change the fact that it is damaging.
> To posses a commodity is to dominate it; to triumph, win a war, > succeed in a hunt, win a game, or be serviced by a woman all > express dominance". MA> And once again this kind of thing seems to ignore that there MA> have sure been a lot of women in our society who approach MA> 'snaring' a man as some kind of achievement, some kind of MA> conquest,You're right, "I'm going to BAG me a husband, CATCH me a man", makes men an award. However, the fact that culturally speaking women may speak of men as objects does not change the fact that men also speak of women as objects. Nor does it alter the fact that the objectification of women is one of the factors that leads to violence against women. Women may objectify men, but they do not then go out and rape them. Do not forget that last year we in the US saw the highest number of rapes, and 29 states set a new high for the number of rapes.
> Try saying 'Fuck you!' aloud several times. What thoughts, > feelings, or images arise? MA> It has about the same meaning to me as 'go to hell,' and that is MA> ALL it means to me, Beneke's "wisdom" about this MA> notwithstanding.I see, so if I say, "I don't agree with you, so go to hell" that will have the same emotional impact to you if I say, "I don't agree with you, so fuck you"? When you are in an argument you use those phrases interchangeably? I'm sorry but I find that hard to believe. For most people in our culture "fuck you" has a greater impact than "go to hell". The connotations are also quite different. One says "I want to see you go to a mythical place of torment". This requires no action on the part of the curser you send yourself to hell. The other says "I want to force you to have sex". This requires action of the person issuing the curse. It also has a painful physical as well as emotional component. What does it say about our culture that we use "have sex" as the ultimate put down and expression of anger?
MA> The Anglo white adult male is the biggest visible stationary MA> target for the slings and arrows of bullshit-quality political MA> dogma and has been for some years.I never mentioned Anglo adult males, neither did Beneke. Why do you jump to the conclusion that it is aimed at white men? Perhaps it is because you know many white men think this way. However, many white boys think this way, as well as brown, yellow, and black boys as well as men. Our language teaches males to think this way, some hold these attitude closer to their hearts than others. Some out grow these attitudes quickly and learn to think of all people as people, many others don't.
Our language makes sex a weapon, it makes it a conquest, it makes it a put down. You can bury your head in the sand and say there is nothing wrong with our culture, even though there were over 100,000 reported rapes last year. Even though 1 in 4 women will be raped in her life. Even though in a study (Koss et al.) of male university students from 32 university around the US found that 7% **admitted** to committing a rape. You can bury your head in the sand and call attempts to discover why this happens "political dogma" or you can stand up and help take back our culture from the barbarians that threaten it.
MA> But it was high time to stop hating ourselves, and I am damned MA> glad that people like Herb Goldberg have written books to MA> counter the endless stream of "here's who you really are and why MA> you should despise yourself" drivel written about men since 1965 MA> or so.I don't see why you would hate yourself by admitting that you know as well as I do that many men think and act on the metaphors that Beneke mentions. You can sit back and say that attempts to bring the problem to light are just attacks against men, or you can admit that there is a problem and look towards a solution. You can refuse to accept that kind of language and the underlying thinking that goes with it. You can teach your children not to act that way. You can challenge your friends not to act that way. You can demand you government not act that way. In short you can be part of the solution or part of the problem. Admitting that there is a problem *does not* include self hate.
MA> If these issues concern you, do you post information such as has MA> been written by this Beneke in other conferences where there MA> _is_ a lot of 'rape' talk? Or do you prefer to post it only in MA> places where there are a lot of people who'll simply agree with MA> it enthusiastically?I only read three echos, MENS_ISSUES, LAW, and FEMINISM. I occasionally drop in on DEBATE. Currently your echo isn't talking about rape, but if you want I'll cross post there as well. You are also free to cross post to any other echos as you wish.